Only Nicolas Cage Could Tell Stories Like These | The Interview

because the memes were not unlike the. dreams. And so the dreamification of um. my character was similar to me to the. memeification of Nicholas Cage. [music]. >> Nicholas Cage is a truly one-of-a-kind. artist. >> He's delivered beautifully moving. naturalistic performances [music] like. his Oscar-winning turn in Leaving Las. Vegas. >> Well, can't you just cash it as it is? and he's brought a distinctly.

post-modern imagination to other roles, pulling in [music] references from film, music, and art. >> I felt that Wild at Heart performance. was worth hauling. >> We got some dancing to do. >> I interviewed Cage once before [music]. in 2019, and I wanted to talk to him. again as he makes his first big foray. into television with the series Spider. Noir, a very cajian [music] take on. Spider-Man. I'm taking the reverence I. have for the actors that I cherish like.

Bogart or Kagner or Edward G. Robinson. or Peter Lorie from those old movies and. I'm saying look at this. >> What else can I [music] say except that. there's no one like him or that in my. opinion he's the most original and. unique actor since Marlon Brando. >> Nick. Yes, sir. Where where's your leather. jacket? >> Here's my conversation [music]. with the great Nicholas Cage. All right, Nick, thank you for taking. the time to speak with me. I appreciate. it. >> Thanks, David. Thanks for having me. back. I enjoyed our last conversation.

seven years ago in Nevada. >> We'll pick up where we left off. >> Okay. >> Um, [laughter] which I don't remember. But where I wanted to start, I just. watched the uh the speech you gave to. graduates at Cal State Fullerton. This. is probably something like 25 years ago, >> going way back. Um and and and in that. speech you said artists have the license. to go straight up the devil's ass, smile.

at him, and survive. When have you done that? Uh [sighs]. um. I felt like I did it on Bad Lieutenant. with Verer Herzog. And Verer was an influence on that. particular speech because I remember he. said if you don't have the money to make. the movie, you have to steal the camera. and you have to steal the film and make. the movie. Do it any way you can. You've.

got to make the movie. And I think it. was uh saying something about passion, about the passion of facing the odds to. get to the truth of what it is you hope. to express as as an artist. Sometimes. you have to um be willing to uh within. reason allow your instrument, your. psyche, your imagination to go to very. uncomfortable and dark corners of your.

memory or of your [snorts] uh your your. your thoughts in order to convey a truth. in a scene that is. perhaps disturbing or dangerous. in. nature so that it doesn't feel phony. I'm not saying go out and do something. dangerous, but I'm saying sometimes you. have to allow your psyche, if you will, to embrace that dark corner of your.

mind. And I think that's partially what. I was talking about in that speech. about, as you said, re reiterated, go up. the devil's ass. It's not always a fun. process to go there, to go back in that. dark corner of your mind or that memory. or even look around you at current. events in a newspaper to get to that. place where you [snorts] feel the. emotion and you feel the grief or you. feel the anger so that you don't feel. like you're faking it. >> Have you ever done what you just. described? Sort of used the the world.

outside, sort of looked at current. events to motivate. >> Certainly. I I remember specifically on. a a little movie I made called Joe. >> Joe. Yeah. David Gordon Green. Yeah. >> And um I was having trouble getting to. that feeling of intense anger. [snorts]. And without mentioning names, I I I. recalled a newspaper article I read. about a a little boy who was at the zoo.

and he fell into a a. well a cage or an environment of wild uh. painted dogs, the African painted dogs, and they ate the the child alive. And I. remember getting very upset about it. that how could something like that. happen? And so in that scene, I was. upset that this child that I was sort of. mentoring or guiding was the victim of. uh domestic abuse and of uh his sister.

was uh um potentially going to be. abducted for other disturbing and. horrible things, atrocities. And so I I. I I went and looked at that current. event at that time and I and then it got. me there. So that would be an example. >> You know, it's interesting when actors. talk about um sort of the the. psychological or emotional risks of of. performance. They often talk about it in. the context of darker emotions. Is it.

does it feel risky or difficult to get. to the more positive emotions? >> So that's a really. perfect question. And um. if I wake up in the morning. to [snorts] use a cliche on the wrong. side of the bed and I have to be funny. funny and happy happy happy and dance. dance dance dance dance dance dance. dance dance dance dance dance dance. dance dance dance dance dance dance. dance dance dance dance and this and. this you know bright and sparkling and.

poppy that is more difficult that is. much more challenging well how do you. how do you get there you you you become. a specialist in compartmentalizing. Okay, that I'm not going to think about. what was said to me an hour ago. I am. going to shut that off and act from the. spinal cord and be happy and turn it on. And that's not easy. Um, you know, also. in in that Cal State Fullerton speech,

something you said that that really um. stuck with me is, you know, you you. talked about a willingness to invite. negative reaction to the work, a. willingness to to uh be despised or or. have someone not like the work. and you. said something along the lines of, you. know, it's when somebody has a negative. reaction like that, they're not BSing. Like they're it's a genuine reaction and. that's something that you're you're. striving for. And I I think about that a.

lot actually. Like if you're if you're. only doing something that people like. all the time or only have positive. reactions to, it's possible you're not. taking them on an exciting of enough. ride. Um, but it does take it takes some. courage to be willing to be despised or. or laughed at or misunderstood. And I. wanted to know for you if if you have a. memory of when you realized that you. were willing to elicit that kind of. reaction or maybe even were drawn to.

that kind of reaction. >> Um, I think it was on Peggy Sue Got. Married. um which everyone knows was a movie that. I I did not really want to uh partake in. and I found a way and and u the powers. that be said okay to to play the part in. a way that I thought would be. interesting to me which was to use this. voice that was not uh considered very.

attractive. >> that's my love. What. you mean? Sex. >> Um, and to change my appearance in such. a way where it almost became like a. cartoon or like a dream cartoon. I knew. full well that that was not going to go. over very well, but at the same time, it's what kept me interested. It's it's. what I knew that I was taking an. enormous risk, but. it was so exciting. Every day I went to.

work and I was just saying in my mind, I'm going to I'm going to do this. I'm. going to stick to it. I'm going to stick. to it. I'm going to stick to it. And. everyone else around me is like, stop, stop, stop. And I I just kept going. And. I'm very happy with that performance for. me. And I think in time it's matured in. a way that's it's actually quite. wonderful. Um, and I'm glad I did it. But but in the process it was uh I knew.

I was going to invite a lot of um. negative commentary. >> But then after Peggy Sue got married, >> right, >> you did you did other performances where. you were taking things to places that. were were probably likely going to be. misunderstood. >> Yeah. >> Was that a result of liking what you had. done on Peggy Sue Got Married personally. like that you you did? Yeah, >> it was a personal choice of mine that I. was carving something that I wanted to.

bring to life and have it shine in in. that way. Francis Bacon famously said in. his book, The Brutality of Fact, that. it's impossible to record anything as a. fact without causing some injury to the. image. >> [snorts]. >> So, I was actively looking for at times. the grotesque like a bacon painting, vampires kiss. Even raising Arizona, I. was challenging Joel and Ethan because I. was sticking to my plan that he was. going to hi Mcdana was going to have.

this kind of Woody Woodpecker. Looney Tunes style. >> STATE FARM ROAD NUMBER 31, TEMPE, ARIZONA. I'LL BE WAITING. >> Which they originally liked, but there. were days where they were frustrated and. they did were like, why did I why did. you know I could have cast this person. and I could have cast that person. Then. I finally just said, well, why did you. hire me? And that stopped that. conversation. But and the results on. that I think are terrific. I think that. that was a great union. Joel, Ethan, and.

myself and Holly. I think we got. somewhere together that was remarkably. funny, but at the time it was right on. the edge. Um, and then Vampires Kiss, of. course. I mean, I I was really uh. struggling on that one because I had a. very specific vision of what I wanted. I. wanted to bring a Max Shrek like style. back into um the sort of 80s yepy. This. is before American Psycho attitude of.

like the the the the literary agent. who's going to the best restaurants and. he's going on dates and and then slowly. devolving into a vampire and thinking he. is a vampire and that I wanted to bring. out the Shrek-like behavior and I did. the horrible thing that I don't need to. go back to with the you know the. ingestion of that thing and and um. >> cockroach. >> Yeah. [laughter] Right. Well, that all. that was me trying to make a big noise. to say we're going to do this. We're.

going to do something different. >> But th some of those performances that. you just mentioned uh sort of bring to. mind a question I had that's going to be. uh a little in the weeds for for most. people uh other than you, me, and. Nicholas Cage fans, but uh I'm going to. do it anyway. So, I think one of the. innovative things that you brought to. acting was almost a kind of there's sort. of like a post-modern. uh almost metatextual element to it.

where you would take elements from. genres that were outside of film and. performance. uh and sort of outside of the character. you were trying to play and import them. into what you were doing. So, I I'll. give examples. But I remember when I. spoke to you last time there's I asked. you about this scream that you gave in a. movie called Rage and you explained that. you were trying to emulate some sort of. stockhousen sonic effect with THAT. [screaming].

TO YOUR BOSS. >> or uh in Face Off there's a moment where. uh your character sort of goes up behind. a school girl and and your face raises. up and you're doing like a Francis Bacon. style look to the camera or in Mandy. there's a a scene I think your character. is in a car and you you look quickly at. the camera and the camera zooms into a. close-up like a Bruce Lee movie. And. there's any number of other examples. like the Woody Woodpecker Raising. Arizona. Um I I could keep going, but.

are there similar examples of you doing. that kind of technique that um sort of. you haven't seen remarked on? Like when. have you done that that and people have. not noticed? Well, I don't know if they've known the. specifics. that went into the choices in terms of. what you're calling metatitual. I would. call the um the art synthesis concept.

that I was dabbling in. Um. where I could pull from other art forms. and have them inform my performance. And I I like to take from places whether. it's in film performance like you. mentioned Bruce Lee or or whether it's. in. graphic art or any other art stockous. we were talking about punk and stemong I. think.

>> um in this case and I will let you know. I I did it again I felt that the the the. wild at heart performance was Warholian, not Stannislavski. Warholian in that. Warhol would take these icons and um do. these marvelous collages with them. I. thought, well, why not do that with film. performance and David Lynch being David. Lynch, the the great American. surrealist, was really up for that.

[snorts]. Which brings me to Spider Noir. So, so. >> yeah, >> we'll circle. I can get there now or you. I could circle back. >> Just go for it. Just go where you're. going. >> Well, so Duchamp shovel started this. idea I think in pop art of taking a. utilitarian tool and isolating it and we. could regard it as fine art. And then. you had Warhol doing that with the soup. cans. And then I looked at all that and. then I looked at Likenstein and. Likensstein utilized a or or or embraced.

a uh mass. utility in the comic strip and uh broke. it down all the way to the little. printing press dots that you see from. the printing press and he threw it into. a still life and that became a kind of. Serat poalism. But it was a likenstein. taking irreverence and reverence in a in. a comic graphic and making it fine art.

and almost being irreverent about fine. art while doing it. So what what am I. doing with Spider Noir is I'm taking the. reverence I have for the actors that I. cherish like Bogart or Kagner or Edward. G. Robinson or Peter Lori from those old. movies [music]. and I'm taking the mass util utility of. the television or the tube if you will. and I'm trying to mash that that.

reverence I have up with a pop icon a. Marvel icon in in Spider-Man if you will. and make a collision in such a way that. I'm taking television which is a mass. tool that every the many people embibe. on and and ingest and I'm saying look at. this so that maybe the hope is that a. young person in their teens would go oh. wow what is that that's uh that's black. and white I'm not too familiar with.

black and white I can watch it in color. but I can also watch it in black and. white what is black and white oh my gosh. there's this immense. volume of beautiful art that all these. early actors were in let me check that. out Let's go look at that. And oh, and. by the way, he's Spider-Man. So, it's. like this boom, this this crazy. Likenstein collision. So, that is. metatextual or my art synthesis concept. Again, now the fact that.

Amy Pascal at Sony, Jen Sulky at Amazon, Orura New Zeal, and Steven Lightfoot. let me. I'm still amazed by. >> So when you're in uh meetings about. doing a project like Spider Noir, >> yeah. >> Do you do you explain the Likenstein. stuff or. >> No, I don't. >> I'll keep that I'll keep keep that under. my vest. >> I didn't I didn't break out the. Likenstein in those meetings. I can do. it with you because we can talk the same. language sometimes. But with with for.

example with Jen Sulky at Amazon, I went. over to her house and we all sat there. All the powers of be were there. And I. just said, you know, it doesn't matter. if a 13-year-old doesn't know who. Humphrey Bogart is. The point is it. works. It works. I know it works. And I. remember calling Jen saying, "You don't. have to only do it in black and white. You can also do it in color." And then. they can hopcotch back and check it out.

in black and white. And then lo and. behold, maybe they'll want to see the. Big Sleep or Maltese Falcon. >> You know, I had zero interest in. watching the color version. >> Thank you. Well, I I I I think folks. like us, real film enthusiasts will go. with the black and white, but [snorts]. I'm hoping that the 13-year-olds, the. 15year-old, whomever, will see the color. and go, "Well, let me try the black and. white. What were they?" And I think they. will. I mean, there's a real Are we. doing spoilers in this interview? Well,

it's [snorts] fine with me. You're. you're you're the one who has to decide. >> I mean, I I I really wanted to see a a. version of a Spider-Man that was. grappling with the arachnid. DNA that was flowing through his. bloodstream and having to retrain. himself as to how to be human. Uh um I. have a couple more questions about. acting, but before I do, there's. something I was curious about related to. spiders. I know you've had a lot of.

exotic pets. Have you had a spider? >> Oh, sure. Sure. I've had spiders, tarantulas. Uh, >> well, I even learned a little bit about. the the the the movement of spiders, and. I put that in the in the script. Um, spiders don't have muscles. Their. appendages are like straws. They shoot. fluid. So, they're the fluid is making. their appendages move, which is. fascinating to me. It's like a party. whistle. All that went into the script.

Um, there is a a spider that I found. fascinating, which is listed as one of. the more intelligent animals and it's. called the Porsche spider. And this. spider, this spider is so intelligent, it literally. knows what bug likes what which tune on. his web. So he knows what to play to get. the fly and he knows what to play to get. the grasshopper. And that's really.

something that exists. I thought that. was fascinating. >> This is uh um slightly related. I read. there was a a Reddit ask me anything you. did a couple years back, right? >> And someone someone asked you about. >> I think I don't even remember what the. question was, but the subject of praying. mantises came up and you said don't get. me something like don't get me started. on praying mantises. Why not? >> Well, I think it was the same movie we. had talked about years ago with that.

great line, I never had a career, only. work. Uh the uh Hammer horror film. Um. >> Oh. Uh. >> A Million Miles to Earth or something. Uh. >> well, not a million miles. >> Quater Mass. Quater Mass in the Pit. That's it. >> Whoa. You have a good memory. Holy moly. You remember that? >> Yeah. Well, that. >> that's something you mentioned in. passing seven years ago. >> Those aliens in that looked like praying. mantises. And it flipped me out. I was.

very impressionable as a child. Which. brings me to another reason why I'm glad. that I managed to finally do a season of. television. because I think even before I discovered. James Dean and Brando, I was I was w I was all about my. television, the Zenith Oval television. in my living room. And I wanted to get. inside that TV because the people those. little people in that TV were far more.

interesting to me than the people in my. living room. And I think that was my. earliest memory of wanting to be an. actor. It was people like Bill Bixby and. Peter Faulk and Rock Hudson and McMillan. and wife and Dennis Weaver and Mloud and. I I loved and anything by Rod Serling. So the television and it's amazing it's. only happened now was largely. responsible for me wanting to become an. actor. At the earliest age like 3, four,

five, six, the TV was the savior of my. childhood. >> Why the savior? Well, there I mean I. don't want to go into too much detail, but it was not the calmst domestic. environment and the I could go and. escape in the TV uh by watching shows or. I could go in the backyard. Amazing how. much time I spent in the backyard. without anybody checking on me. Just I. started digging a hole. I thought I was. going to dig my way to China and I kept. digging and digging and digging and.

digging and nobody found the hole and I. had a shovel and I kept digging. And I. saw roots and I saw weird bugs and I. kept digging and digging and someone. finally said and I would cover the hole. with a plank of plywood and someone. uncovered and said, "Do you see what. Nikki's doing? Oh my god, look at the. size of this hole.". >> Then what was the upshot? Did you get in. trouble for the hole? >> Well, the upshot was it rained and then. it was filled with water and I had like. a pond of sorts. But yes, I did get in. trouble for the hole. I got in trouble. for the hole and I got in trouble for.

because evil conneal was big back then. I got in trouble for jumping off ramps. on my Huffy uh uh bike going higher and. higher. And I remember at one point I. was going to put on a show for the. neighborhood and I would jump over beer. kegs. I don't know how I had beer kegs. There were beer kegs and I would go over. one, two, three, four on my ramp. And. then I had decided I was going to build. a hoop of fire. I was going to build.

this round thing out of cardboard and. douse it with kerosene light on fire. I'm going to jump through a hoop of. fire, folks. And that was when they took. the bike away. >> Yeah, fair enough. >> Yeah. >> Um, wait, let me return to acting for a. second. >> Sure. >> Was that Was that Hoopifier thing real, by the way? >> Which which one? >> You weren't just improvising that. >> No, that's all No, that's all all true. These are all true stories. >> Yeah. >> Um, so I there was an interview just a.

couple years ago where the the. somehow the subject of sort of. retirement came up and and you said, you. know, you're no imminent plans, but. maybe you had some plans to dial back. But one thing that you said was that you. felt. >> like you had pushed screen performance. as far as it could go. And I want to. know where did you find the limits? like. where did you push it to and what what. were the b the ultimate boundaries for. what you were able to do? >> But David, I don't think it was so much.

that I pushed it to the limit. I think I. I I couldn't come up with I wasn't able. to come up with any more ideas as to. what to do with it. Uh, >> I felt like I had realized, you know, for better or for worse, for myself, I. had realized for better what I had. wanted to achieve with film performance. with things like Vampires Kiss and and. Raising Arizona and adaptation. I I kept. pushing the envelope in terms of. different points of expression within.

film performance. And I felt that I had. said what I wanted to say with cinema, landing on Dream Scenario, which I'm. very proud of. and um thinking, well, how am I going to what what's next? How. am I going to stay interested? What am I. going to do? What's going to challenge. me? And I thought, okay, it's either. going to be stage or television because. I haven't done really. that in any meaningful way as far as I'm. concerned. Some high school plays, a bad. television pilot that got, you know,

didn't get picked up. Um, and so I. thought, well, let's let's how am I. going to stay interested? Let's do let's. do something interesting on television. You know, David Lynch had done Twin. Peaks and he reinvented. uh he introduced he took the the mass. tool of television, the episodic tool of. television and introduced surrealism to. to millions of people which is is. immense. Again, hopscotching.

metatitually art synthesis. Holl did it. you know, he was a genius designer and. he decided he wanted to take the mass. tool of JC Penney, but the snobs in New. York pooped on his head and it didn't. pick up. Now everybody's doing it. He. was ahead of the ahead of his time. So. now you see it everywhere. You see. Armani Exchange and and many people get. to enjoy designer style. This is. brilliant. Um, and so David did and I. thought, well, what can I do? What can I. do and change the format and stay.

interested? with spider and war. I'm. hoping that I will have um instilled an. interest in younger generations to enjoy. the black and white style. I designed my. performance to fit in the black and. white format. That Howard Hawks way of. talking, that talking shiny, you know, all that stuff was designed to fit in. the black and white format. So, now two. performance related uh questions that. I've been curious about. The first is.

there's a movie that came out just a. couple years ago called Gunslingers. A. um a western. >> This is interesting. This book. says Bible. Read it. It's good. >> And you your character does a voice that. I would describe as maybe like modern. blues man or something like that. >> So what happened? Okay. >> Yeah. What was the voice?

>> Okay. Well, well, so what happened with. that was it's common knowledge. We had a. backto-back strike in Hollywood. And um. I suddenly got a phone call like, "You. need to do this right now or you know. you're going belly up." And I said, "Oh. no, really? How much time?" One week. I'm like, "What am I gonna do? I want to. do this other movie, but they pushed. They're not sure they're gonna go. How. am I going to be able to. afford to do the other movie, which is a.

movie called Madden? >> Oh, right. >> So, the the double strike hit and I got. the phone call and I thought, "Oh, God, please. I don't want to do another. commercial." I had done commercials in. Japan a million years ago and I got. burned there because it was I thought it. was um you never say never, but I. thought it was a toy. uh this little. pachinko machine that my cousin had in. his bedroom and we used to play it. I. did not know. And I asked, "Is there.

anything wrong with this product in. Japan I should know about?" "No, it's a. toy." I said, "Okay." And then I turned. I did the the commercial, which was fun. and goofy and slapstick and what have. you, and I got to embrace my inner Jerry. Lewis. >> Look, [music]. I'm coming. But [snorts] it was uh basically. Japanese gambling. They don't do it for. money. They do it for toys and then you. could sell the toy, what have you. And. that I really was I I had umbrage with.

that. And so I thought I really don't. trust this as as a a thing I should be. doing commercials. Plus, you know, I at. a time I was going through this thing. with like what would Jim Morrison do? Well, he only lived to 27 sadly. And I I. don't know. I'm 62. I'm now older than. many of my. >> That's terrible advice. What would Jim. Morrison do? Well, my you know, he would. not do a commercial, but he didn't live. that long, so who knows what would have. happened. But anyway, long story short, I didn't want to do it. And now I'm.

older than Beethoven was when he died. and Humphrey Bogart and James Dean and. all these guys and John Lennon and all. these heroes of mine are. I'm now 62 and. I'm still here and I wanted to do this. movie Madden. I didn't know how I was. going to be able to buy the time to get. to Madden and I didn't want to do a. commercial. So along comes Gunslingers. And I thought, okay, I'm a cameo in this. movie. Let's have some fun with it. Could the movie be good? I don't know. The director seems like a nice guy. And.

I thought, but what can I bring that I'm. going to find amusing? And I remembered. [gasps]. going on Dick Kavitt a million years ago. with Miles Davis. >> And Miles was like, you know, HE WAS HE. WAS SORT OF LIKE, UH, Nick. Yes, sir. Where where's your leather. jacket? My my my le MY LEATHER JACKET. >> YEAH. DO YOU LEARN NOTHING FROM DENNIS? DENNIS HOPPER, MAN. WHAT ARE YOU WEARING. THAT SUIT FOR? WELL, I I you know, and.

then I was on the show doing this with. my hair was sticking up like Woody. Woodpecker again. Back to raising. Arizona. And and then I had this trumpet. with me and I wanted Miles to teach me. how to play the trumpet. And then the. trumpet fell down behind me. He was. like, "You be careful with that. instrument." And so then I got the. trumpet and I couldn't get a sound out. of it. It was so There's been a couple. times when I've really felt that. horrible. Three times in my life I. really felt that humiliating, embarrassed feeling. One was that when I.

couldn't get a sound out of trumpet with. the maestro. One was when I had to sing Love Me Tener. to the president's wife at the Can Film. Festival on a table because David Lynch. demanded it. And one was when I couldn't. get the tune right on a harmonica in a. high school play. [snorts] Uh all three. were disasters. Um, but to answer your. question, I was channeling what I. remembered that I loved about Miles's. sound and his voice and I plus I wanted. to wear a green bowler hat and I. thought, well, if I can do a Miles Davis. sound in a green bowler hat, I'm happy.

So, let's make the movie. Just let's. just make the stupid movie. [laughter]. >> I'm [snorts] still trying to get over. the fact you were asking yourself ever, what would Jim Morrison do? When did. that did that ever go wrong? >> [clears throat]. >> Um, probably. Yeah, [laughter]. probably. Should I really have another. whiskey? What would Jim Morrison do? >> Right. >> Nope. >> Yeah, he would say yes. He [laughter]. would say yes.

>> Well, um, in Oh, go ahead. >> No, I I I I'm a big fan of his poetry. and his his stage presence and his. voice. I think his voice, if you listen. to it today, sounds like it's so iconic. It doesn't sound real. It's like how can. that come out of somebody really a human. being that that. um. what was come on come on come on now. touch me babe can't you see that I am. not afraid what was that promise that I.

mean he just it's so full you know I. think my aunt my aunt knew him and UCLA. I think they would goal. >> yeah they would go for car rides. together and talk philosophy. >> he was a smart man apparently. And thus concludes the Jim Morrison. portion of this interview [laughter]. >> in. >> it's probably best. >> What can you tell me about playing John. Madden? I don't I actually was trying to. think about it. I don't think you've. played sort of an iconic real life.

character before. >> No, I really didn't know who he was. I. don't have in my view anyway much in. common with him. Um, David O' Russell is. someone that offered me a movie a. million years ago. I think it was uh. I don't remember the name of the movie, but anyway, it was a good movie and he. offered it and I said no. And he's the. only director that I ever said no to who.

actually came back and offered me. another movie. Most of them, they get. their feelings hurt or something and and. don't call you back. It's happened a. million times to me. It's happened with. Christopher Nolan. It's happened with. Woody Allen. It's happened with Paul. Thomas Anderson. They don't they don't. call me back. And I my schedule. >> What movie did Christopher Nolan and. Paul Thomas Anderson. >> Insomnia? The Paul Thomas Anderson movie. was a was a very early movie. He'd show. me a short film which was very good with.

Philip Bigger Hall and we were going to. do something part. >> Yeah. And it didn't work out. But. anyway, David did call me back and and I. I have I thought that that was really um. it showed a lot of class that he would. call me back and invite me again and I. didn't want to say no to him again. because I do have great respect for his. talent. And uh it was a beautiful. experience. I I enjoyed working with. David. I enjoyed working with Christian. And I enjoyed working with all the.

actors, John Melany. I mean, and we. really got in step with each other and. um so I'm glad I did it. Uh but again, it was big challenge. It was a stretch. I mean, it's not I don't think of myself. when I think of John Madden. So I was. like, okay, how can I get way out of my. comfort zone? Which I think we talked. about that was what David Bowie said to. me. I I asked him, I said, how did you. do it? How'd you keep reinventing. yourself? He said, I just never got. comfortable with anything I was doing.

And so that's stayed with me. >> In a movie called, I believe it's called. Deadfall. >> Yeah. >> You your character looks to me like. you're doing uh a riff on Andy Kaufman's. alter ego, Tony Clifton. >> No. And I've heard that before. That's. not true, though. I wasn't riffing Tony. at all. I was doing my own thing, which. is interesting. because I saw a screening of that movie.

with Spike Jones who who had uh directed. me an adaptation and he loved that that. performance. And then I saw his Beasty. Boys video. I think it was called uh. what was the video? Uh uh Rampage. They were all in like. >> Sabotage. >> Sabotage. >> Sabotage. [music]. and they're all in like these bad wigs. and they all and these terrible. sunglasses. They all look like Eddie.

from Deadfall. I said, "Oh, okay. I I. think I know where that came from.". >> Um but um no, I was um. >> that was another movie I didn't want to. make and I felt like I had to because it. was my brother and I said, "Okay, I'll. I'll do it." But directed it. Yeah. can. I do that will make it interesting for. me, you know, and what can I bring to. this? So, I just went full ID release, just full. um I didn't care if it made sense or it.

didn't. I just wanted to do this like. live wire performance in a bad wig and. an upturn nose. So, the nose kind of. went out and then up like that. And I'm. just I and I'm very proud of that. performance. Uh I I I I do I do think it. uh I think it endures. [laughter]. >> Um earlier you said uh you you pointed. to a film you did a couple years ago. called Dream Scenario as sort of being. the uh the culmination in some ways of. of what you were doing. And Dream.

Scenario for people who didn't see it, it was you played a college professor. who starts showing up in people's. dreams. Yeah. C. But can you can you. explain what was going on in that. performance that that makes you say. makes you point to it as a kind of. culmination? >> Well, I think that because I was. contending with this sort of meme uh. meification, I coined the word. memeification. I don't think it was ever. used before. this memeification that I.

had lived through and needed to find a. place to put it and that was the perfect. vessel because the memes were not unlike. the dreams and so the dreamification of. um. >> my character in dream scenario was. similar to me to the memeification of. Nicholas Cage. >> it's interesting that you bring up dream. scenario. as as a way to address the memeification. because I was wondering if that was part. of the intention for doing that film and. it was interesting because it also that. movie came not too long after you did.

the unbearable weight of massive talent. in which you played uh you played a. version of yourself and someone who's. also and the character Nicholas Cage in. that film was also kind of contending. with. uh a public perception that he was. uncomfortable with and in in my. perception the the sort of feverish. [snorts]. memeification has basically disappeared.

since uh Dream Scenario and since The. Unbearable Weight of Massive Talent and. I wondered if in taking on films that. directly addressed that if you were. trying to sort of puncture that so that. the fever would break. >> Well, not not consciously. No. Um but. that's an interesting observation. Has it? I didn't know that. I I I don't. know if it has. >> I I think so. >> Oh, well that's interesting. What is a. meme really? I mean, what is that? Is.

that Is that a a snapshot of something. that happened culturally? like uh uh I I. think it's interesting to look at that. communication. as a result of some of my performances. that it would land in cyberspace in such. a way that my face and vampires kiss. became the you don't say meme. I mean I. I I I don't know. I I I think I'm.

flattered by it on some level. you know. that it it communicated. and it was remembered. that. um potently that it it got into a whole. new um. technology that I wasn't even aware of. when I made Vampires cuz it didn't. exist. You know, it's um I that's how. I'm choosing to look at it. I think.

positively it kept me in the. conversation. I have a a different a. slightly different theory for why you. some of your stuff in particular got. me'd. And I I think it's also ultimately. a a flattering uh theory, too. But I I. think one of the things that memes do is. also I realize now as I'm talking I. sound like a jackass pontificating about. what memes do, but I'm just going to I'm. just going to continue sounding like a. jackass.

>> It doesn't sound like a jackass. [laughter] Sounds interesting. >> But but uh you know memes are are sort. of the the the purest encapsulation of a. particular feeling or sentiment. >> that uh than is otherwise being. expressed. So like the example of the. the vampires kissed you don't say meme. that is capturing a feeling. >> Yeah. >> And an emotion that people have in the. purest possible form. And that's why it. gets passed around because people use it.

as a shortorthhand for a feeling that. that they're having. And seeing in that. light, I think actually. >> stuff getting me'd a signal that you. were doing your in your instance, in. your case, we're doing the job. correctly. I would say. >> I think that there is a. need. for a um. vessel. vicariously. for folks who are good citizens.

who are doing their best to be. upstanding members of the community. to live through and get their yayas out. Whether they're angry yayas or happy. yayas or whatever whatever it is I I. think. and I don't know how conscious I was of. it but that. that has communicated through some of. the meltdown performances in my work.

>> where people can tap into it. >> and live through it without having to go. and do it whether it's mashix mashik men. in the pharmacy you know would you like. take you out on the street and pass. blood, you know, or flipping out and. vampires Kiss or or whatever it is. I. think that that perhaps. more than anything else is what has. enabled me. to endure.

people that I gravitated towards. like James Dean when he um did Rebel. Without a Cause, he was speaking to I. was 15 when I discovered that. I knew. what that felt like. And so I think as. as a as a person that enjoys being an. audience member, I I find these actors. or personalities in cinema. that have helped me.

find my own identity or understand what. I was going through in my own life. It. happened, you know, with Bruce Lee. It. happened with Travolta and Saturday. Night Fever. And it gave me a feeling of. like, oh, I can I can do this. >> Yeah. Did uh you ever tell John Travolta. that his performance is happening? >> Sure. Well, what happened was. >> Yeah. >> What's funny face off, >> right? Right. What happened was. literally I was going to Horus man.

elementary school. and uh I used to go to the um tropical. aquarium store. Even then, I was. interested in fish. And I had these two. buckets of tropical fish in my hands and. [clears throat] I had the the the. t-shirt with the, you know, just no. sleeves walking with the buckets. And I. thought I was Tony uh from Saturday. Night Fever walking Monero walking down. the street. And lo and behold,

>> I'm at the stoplight waiting to cross. near the school and upglides John. Travolta in a blue Adidas tracksuit and. a gold I think it was a 250 SL Mercedes. And he's looking at me and I'm looking. at him like, "Oh my god, I'm I'm you. right now and you're over there with my. buckets of not paint but fish." that. happened and then kind of willed it into. Face Off. [sighs]. >> Um, I have a million more uh of specific.

questions about acting and performance, but can I just do like a quick rapidfire. Nicholas Cage uh lore. series of questions and you tell me if. they're true or not. >> Okay, I'm in your hands. >> Uh, >> let's have [laughter] it. For better or. worse, >> no, it's all good. What What What have. you got? >> I got a bunch. >> Okay, >> so here's the first one. Vampires Kiss.

in a There was a sex scene and you asked. to have hot yogurt poured on your toes. during the sex scene. >> Um, there was there was some yogurt. There. wasn't hot yogurt. And I think I was administering the. yogurt to myself. >> But why? I I I don't I don't really. remember. [laughter]. >> Yeah.

>> Who knows? >> It's better that you don't. >> Who knows? Okay, next one. >> Uh there there was an an old uh Playboy. interview from maybe mid 80s, late '. 80s, something like that. And there's. just a an off-hand reference to stealing. an aquarium from the Museum of Modern. Art. >> Oh, >> did that happen? >> Yeah. Well, it wasn't an aquarium and it. wasn't it was in California and it was a. uh it was in the trash. It was a um a. lucite box that covers um art artifacts.

Um and I just took it and I used it as. an enclosure for a um king snake. So, not stealing technically. >> No, not really. No, it was in trash, >> I would say. Yeah, reusing. >> Trash picking. [laughter]. >> All right, last last one for last one. for now. I might come back to some. others, but um so apparently at Graceand. there's a there's a private familyonly.

area. And I read that you were granted. access to the private area and tried on. some of the king's clothes and sat in. the bathroom in the same position that. Elvis was found in when he was found. dead. Is that true? >> No, that's not true at all. What is true. is um. you know my ex-wife and I um. >> Lisa Marie Presley. >> we when it was great we we we were we. were very close and we had a lot of.

laughs and there were a couple of nights. at Graceand where she went wanted to go. upstairs and so I did and and I remember. lying in Elvis's bed and and he had this. you know those little fiber optics. things that spin and change colors. >> like a lava lamp. >> Not a lava lamp, but not unlike a lava. lamp, but little fiber optics and it it. rotates and then they they can change. colors like green and blue and little. little little.

plastic like. >> strings that that like whiskers that. stand out and they can change colors. They're usually sitting on top of a a. light box that changes colors as it. rotates. And I remember staring at that. and being very relaxed by it and calmed. by it and and I enjoyed thinking of him. looking at that and how it might have. must have relaxed him. So it was kind of. a beautiful poignant little moment in my. life.

>> Um okay so acting is in a lot of ways is. all about choices right? the choices. that both the choices that the actor. chooses to make within the performance. and the the choices that the the choices. the actor makes about what performances. to to do. I think you're you're sort of. known in some ways for making. unconventional choices in performance or. doing doing the unexpected thing or the. surprising thing. And I I I want to know.

about the difference between making. choices in art versus making choices in. life. And I I assume that in art you're. able to be very intentional and and. decisive about the choices you make. Are. you able to to access that kind of. control in life also? or do choices in. life present difficulties that choices. in art don't.

uh don't don't present. >> I think that's a pretty um astute. question and within the question I think. there's perhaps some observation I I um. it's no secret that I have over the. years particularly early on perhaps had. lack of impulse control and probably. shouldn't have bought that car or. shouldn't have bought about that. property or whatever it was. Um, and yes, in art, the comedian in me is.

looking for the surprise. You get a. laugh when you do something unexpected. That's what makes people laugh in my. view or you do something marvelously. witty. But it's usually the the surprise. element that that evokes a laugh. response. So there's a lot that that. part of my pallet is always at work with. the tragic part and sometimes at the. same time. Um but [clears throat] in my.

own personal life, for example, when you met me seven years. ago, I was more interested in other habits. than I am now. I am extraordinarily. boring right now. I live a very monastic. life. I am not taking any risks. whatsoever if I can avoid it. I am. really going to go the other way. And I. am all about.

raising my three and a halfyear-old, my. toddler for to have a happy and healthy. life. That is my focus. And that and. when I work those that's it. you know, my two boys are grown up and um. I mean I do have vices. I mean I I drink. entirely too much caffeine. I'm drinking. 200 mgram, you know, strawberry energy. drinks six times a day and I'm not good. with my phone and the doom scrolling's.

got to stop. They're not good de vices. to have. They're not good for your. psyche. But I'm not enjoying a martini, which I. did like my martinis and and I'm not um. doing other things. I mean, I'm I am. pretty monastic. Um so. to answer your question, I'm not doing. any unexpected uh things in life at the. moment. I I have to say I I was.

wondering about the question almost in. more of a um like a cognitive. uh uh like a a mechanical cognitive way. because. I think this is again I'm just. pontificating in a way that I probably. shouldn't do because it makes me sound. like I have uh know things that I don't. know but I think one of the real secrets. to life at least for me has been uh. realizing like if you can just get get. in between the impulse and a thought.

You [clears throat] can really live a. much a much healthier life, you know, like you can if you can just consciously. decide, oh, I I feel this, but I don't. have to act on the feeling. I can take a. step back and decide actually what I. would want to do or what would be the. prudent thing or the better thing to do. in a given situation. And I it seems. like with acting you're. one of the gifts is to be able to do. that to say okay my character is. thinking and feeling this. What is the. best way for me to respond to in order.

to deliver the performance I want? Um. are you able to have that kind of. perspective on day-to-day. life choices where you can step back in. the moment and say how do I want to move. forward right now? >> Yes, I am. Ah, and is it the same kind. of thought process? No. >> Is is it the same kind of ah tell me. tell the difference two different. muscles. One is a. um trained. through years of experience.

understanding of my instrument and what. I can contribute on the set for a. [snorts] specific character and. performance and with my co-stars that. will flow and collaborate in such a way. that we can have a spark and hope. hopefully entertain you. The other is. just sort of saying, well, you're doing. this and I am not going to get angry. because I'm not gonna.

I'm gonna let you do that and and be. patient and take it in and think about. what I can do to diffuse. but without engaging and that I find. very easy. I mean, when I was 19, no. Uh, now I'm 62. Sure. I I'm I'm I I know. I think I know what to do and what not. to do, whether it's at home or in a.

restaurant or out in public, whatever. I. I I first thing I do is I don't go out. if I don't think I can meet people. Well, that's a choice. And when I do meet. someone, I'm I know what it means to to. meet someone that I admire and have them. ruin your day by being unkind. My favorite pillars of the human spirit, which I'm a big believer in, are. kindness, compassion, wisdom, and love.

And you know, I I want to embody those. pillars when I meet people. >> Who was the hero you met that was not. kind to you? to hear [laughter] you, Matt. [snorts]. >> I uh. I I I I. don't want to say it because I still. love him. and and I don't want to um.

he's extremely famous. I mean, and I. don't want to upset him. >> Yeah. And sort of a two-part question. Do do you envision, you know, if not. retiring, at least sort of ramping down. the the um amount of time you spend. acting, especially given that you have. such a young child at home. >> Definitely. Yeah. Though that's. >> And then what what would you do if you. weren't acting so often? Because I know. in the past you've said things like, you.

know, you need to act to live. So how. how would you fill that space? >> Again, David, I'm all about my toddler. I mean I that she. um takes. 80% of my energy and I'm I'm focused on. that. So I'm I'm there's it's not about. how how can I fill the time. It's more. about can I find the time that I can. be there to nurture her and and guide. her. Um, and I'm lucky right now because.

she's young enough that as long as we. can travel together and I can come home. to her, that's good. But, uh, yeah, that. is, um, on my mind, how I'm going to, uh, compartmentalize my time. And just. the the last question is uh you know I. know early in your career you were. interested in the idea of sort of devel. developing a mythology around yourself. of kind kind of becoming you know a.

larger than life character. I think. you're looking quizzical. Is that not. the case? >> No. I'm thinking about it. I'm thinking. about what you're asking me and I'm. putting I'm connecting the dots. A and. you know whether you realize it or not. you definitely have achieved that and. and are to a lot of people a kind of. larger than-l life character or figure. in the way that other kind of older. Hollywood uh icons might be. I think of. somebody like you know like a Dennis. Hopper or something or a Brando who sort. of reputation precedes them in a way and.

they have a mythology around them and I. I want to know like what's been what was. what was good about achieving that and. and what was more challenging because. you might be larger than life but I. think well it's your life that that. you're living that the other people are. are viewing. That's a really um. uh profound I think question because I. I'm still trying to find my answer to it. and. it's pretty deep. Um yes, when I began I.

wanted to cultivate this mythology. around myself. That was before we had this thing called. the internet. And I didn't know. that it would go that far, that it would. be that widespread. Did I think could I. didn't have the means to imagine that. one day it would become this thing we. call memes or would go into different.

cultures around the world or whatever it. is that the internet deploys. So I I. think it it went beyond what I initially. was trying to cultivate a a mystique, an. aura, an enig in enigmatic presence, a. mystery, all that beautiful stuff that. the um black and white golden age as we. call them, Bogarts and Kagnes, Betty. Davis's had before. um there was so much television and.

certainly before the internet. >> Yeah. I guess another way of putting it. would be what was gained in a in. achieving the goal of developing a. personal mythology and what was lost. Well, I I think that there may have. become um. you know, it's like I grew up watching. David Keredin in kung fu and I saw him. in a movie and he didn't do any kung fu. and I was disappointed. And so maybe. there's an element of like gosh, I.

really want to see Nick go off the rails. and I'm not going to give them that. every time and I hope they're not. disappointed, you know. >> And what was the good thing about it. about having achieved the goal that you. >> well set out for yourself in your early. but it wasn't the goal? The goal was to. create that mystery, that inigmatic. >> aura. This is something else that I had. no reference point that it would happen. And so I'm still trying to to So what. can I say that? What's the good thing? Um the good thing is it kept me in the.

zeitgeist or it kept me in the. conversation for better or for worse. But is it perfect for me? No. Because. that's not what the movie's necessarily. about. That little two-cond moment. If. you really want to see how the character. got there, you need to watch the whole. thing. It's not just little screenshots. of little gifs or whatever they call. them. It's it's something building to. that eruption, if you will. And so maybe. it's lost, you know, because.

now you hear all this conversation about. attention spans and they getting reduced. and no one has time for that. So now. they're just seeing you don't say or. what, you know. So I don't know if. that's what I had in mind. I I what I. had in mind was movies like Midnight. Cowboy and Rebel Without a Cause and. Last Tango in Paris. I had in mind. movies that you would go and sit down. and watch. I didn't have sound bites and. gifs in mind. [snorts]. >> Yeah. Well, you do have movies that.

people go and sit down and watch. So, [music]. >> thank you. >> So, thank you for taking all the time to. to speak with me. I appreciate it. >> Thanks for having me, David. It's always. a pleasure to have our conversations. [music]. >> [music]. [music].

>> I'm Lulu Garcia Navaro. >> and I'm David Maresy [music]. >> and we're the hosts of the interview an. audio and video podcast from the New. York Times. >> Every week we interview fascinating. [music]. and influential people from all walks of. life. >> Subscribe to our YouTube channel so. you'll never miss an episode. [music].