Lisa Murkowski Went Viral for Saying ‘We Are All Afraid.’ Now She Explains. | The Interview

[Music]. From the New York Times, this is the. interview. I'm Lulu Garcia Navaro. [Music]. Lisa Marowski is one of the best known. senators in the country, which is. strange if you think about it. She's. from Alaska, a state that has only about. 740,000 people living in it. She's not a. bombthrower who constantly seeks the. spotlight. though she did recently go. viral for being recorded at an event.

saying of Trump's second term, "We are. all afraid.". Marowsk's name recognition rests on her. defense of and positioning in the. middle. As the country and the Congress. has become more polarized and the Senate. so evenly divided for so long, she's. found herself frequently courted by both. her fellow Republicans and Democrats for. her vote. And the public too is also. interested in which way she'll swing on. any given issue. In her new memoir.

called Far From Home, Senator Marowski. explores her own political journey, which she says began when she was a PTA. mom in Alaska. She became a national. figure when her father appointed her to. take over his Senate seat when he was. elected governor in 2002. Decades later, she's still here and acknowledged in our. candid and wide-ranging interview that. she's lonely in the Senate and sad about. the state of political discourse in her. party and the country. We talked twice.

over the course of a week. First, as the. Trump Musk Alliance was falling apart. and later as the protests in Los Angeles. were escalating. We began, however, by. talking about her book and negotiations. over Trump's so-called big beautiful. bill. Here's my conversation with. Senator Lisa Marowski. [Music]. Thank you so much for being here. It is. a pleasure to have you. Normally, I.

understand why a politician has written. a book. It's in advance of a run for. higher office or it's with an eye to. their legacy. Your term, though, is not. up for several years. So, why did you. write this book now? Well, I didn't set out to write a book. It's just as simple as that. I do think. that there are many who do set out to. write a book. This is their legacy. They. Yeah, you want to be president? Well, I. don't want to be president. But there. was a story. There was a story after.

2010 with the writein. And uh this was. the campaign where you lost the primary. We're going to talk about this. And then. you had a writein campaign which allowed. you to win back your seat. Win back the. seat. in a very unconventional way when. you lose your primary and you run a ride. in for a a statewide federal seat. Um, uh, kind of unusual, like historic, definitely unusual. Last time it had. happened was 1954 with Strong Thurman.

So there was there was a lot of interest. in what had happened in Alaska that. could actually allow for this political. um you know the Phoenix rising because I. was uh political roadkill after I'd lost. that primary. But I didn't have time and. I didn't know how to write a book. and. what had happened after that write in. when I was returned to the Senate in. again a very unconventional way with not. the ties um or the burdens that um may.

come with support from your party. So it. was kind of a newfound unleashed Lisa if. you will and uh more independent Lisa as. you write in the book. It was it was. definitely a more independent political. figure in our state. So why why now? Um. what this is about is not so much a. legacy. I'm trying to offer a little bit. of of hope to people about a political.

process that seems to get more mired in. partisan infighting with every passing. day. and at the same time trying to. explain um that my groundedness, my. centeredness in Alaska is is kind of. what keeps me um keeps me in my place. today. We're going to get back to the book, but. I'd like to ask you a little bit about. some big events that are happening in.

the Senate right now. And please feel. free to be the unleashed, Lisa, that you. mentioned earlier. Um, President Trump. has given the Senate until July 4th to. get the reconciliation bill, the. so-called big beautiful bill, uh, to his. desk. What are your priorities in the. bill? I want to make sure that as we as we. advance a reconciliation package that we. are not increasing taxes on all. Americans. So, I am I am supportive of.

what we're trying to do uh with the. extension, permanent extension, if you. will, of of the Tax Cut and Jobs Act. from 2017. Um there are significant. provisions within the the bill that um. I'm following very very closely. Energy. provisions are very key to us as an. energyrich state and and a state whose. economy is is very reliant on energy. Uh. our state has a very very significant. population um that is Medicaid eligible.

Some 40% just about 40% of Alaska's kids. are in Medicaid. So health care costs. are are some of the highest if not the. highest in the nation. And so getting. the uh the reforms right with Medicaid. are a huge priority to me right now. You've opposed the cuts to Medicaid. Um, you've had unexpected company like. Senator Josh Holly. Uh, he's more of a. populist. And then there are the people.

who are very much in the deficit hawk. camp who want to see the tax cuts. extended but deeper cuts to Medicaid. I. think there's an overarching question. which I I was wondering if you could. answer. Do you think that as the. Republican party has become more. workingclass, cuts like the ones to Medicaid will. present more of an ideological crisis? Because Republicans. have traditionally wanted tax cuts. That's been always part of the.

Republican mantra, but the base that you. have now is more workingass and they. benefit from entitlements. Absolutely. And I think the president. recognizes this. I mean, the president, I don't know, it was a a month, two. months ago, says, you know, we just we. shouldn't be making cuts to Medicaid, waste, fraud, and abuse. Well, okay. How. are we defining what waste, fraud, and. abuse is? That's that is that's part of. what is going on with uh the debate. right now. But you're absolutely right.

You look at those states that are would. be heavily impacted by Medicaid cuts and. so many of them are red states. They are. states that have supported uh President. Trump. They are states where you have. Republican members right now who are. looking at this and saying, you know, this is going to be hard here. And so. there there has been a shift. And I. think you're seeing that reflected in in.

many of the comments coming from. colleagues. But you point out that uh. we've got an interesting group of of uh. colleagues to work with. You know, politics makes strange bedfellows. And. you know, the fact that Senator Holly is. in alignment with Lisa Mcowsky and Susan. Collins on this issue, I think has has. raised a few eyebrows. I've heard Republicans call Josh Holly. now a a big government conservative. Um,

disparagingly, you know, I don't think that that's. constructive when we decide to label. people because we don't like a decision. that they have made or a position that. they have taken. Uh, one thing that I. found shocking just um u a few well a. month or so ago, Justice Amy Coney. Barrett had ruled on a decision that the. conservatives didn't like and all of a.

sudden this jurist who everybody said. was the conservatives conservative now. is is thrown off the bus. This is not. this is not where we should be. I I I. want to dig into that a little. Um, but. before I do, I'm sure you've seen the. social media war that's erupted between. the president and Elon Musk over the. bill. And by the time this publishes, maybe they will have patched things up. or maybe it will be worse. It's hard to. know. But this is the moment right now.

that we're in. But, you know, as much as it feels like. this is a dramatic breakup, it actually. speaks, I think, to something that has. been a real concern, which is the power. that Donald Trump gave to the richest. man in the world. He invited him into. the White House. He gave them the keys. to the federal government, and now Musk. and Trump are threatening each other. with retaliation. What do you make of. all this? you know, um. I can't I I can't spend my my days.

trying to think through why President. Trump has has chosen to go in in one. direction or another. Um I think we have. watched with great interest as a country. um how he to use your words invited um. the world's wealthiest man into our. government. basically said you be the. the auditor here and uh and figure out. where the waste is in in government. Uh.

as somebody who believes very strongly. in in the institutions of government and. my role in the legislative branch, um I didn't particularly care for that. We have Congress has the role of. oversight. Um, and if we need to root. out their waste, fraud, and abuse, we. need to be doing that. Um, and I, in. fairness, we need to be doing a much. better job. And so, making sure that we.

are doing our job is part of of my whole. frame of reference every day. So, I. could get caught up in all of the. comingings and goings in in the White. House. Um, but as I tell my kids, look, I got a day job that I got to be. focusing on. And I I'm worried right now. that um our role when it comes to the. legislative branch's.

constitutional. mandate there, which is the taxing and. spending, that we're we're kind of. seating everything to the executive. I'm. not good with that at all. And so. there's a lot of focus on what is. happening right now with President Trump. and and Elon Musk. We'll see how that. settles out. Um I have not liked the. manner in which Musk and his Doge team. kind of air dropped in and um very.

summearily dispatched people who were. doing their job. Um talking about the. mass firings. Yeah. Right. and basically. being told that um you know your. services are are no longer valued. Um if. we are looking to to reduce the number. of federal employees, there is a way and. there is a manner to do it. I come from. a state where we have on a per capita. basis more federal workers than most any.

other state. So to come in and tell. these people that have been helping us. with everything from from permitting a. mine to uh the visitors center at the. Menah Hall Glacier and telling them. sorry your services are no longer. warranted. That's not how we operate. here. So it's been a rocky rocky five. months with with dealing with some of. what we saw uh with the doish effort. I. just want to stay on this one more um.

beat because. I understand when you say you've got. bigger issues to focus on, but what. impact do you think Elon Musk's threats. will have on the work that you're doing. now on the bill? Because he is saying. that he will use his vast resources to. act against members of Congress who defy. his wishes. That's not just about Elon. Musk having a Twitter fight with Donald. Trump. That's about trying to influence.

the work that you're doing for the. American people. You know, people with money try to have that. influence. And um this is where Congress. has got to stand up. And so whether it's. Donald Trump that says you must vote for. this bill or Elon Musk that says you. must not vote for this bill, what we. have to do is we've got to do our job as. lawmakers here. We're we're we have got to uh we've got. to make sure that we are we're focusing.

on not what is this going to mean to me? Am I going to be primar? Is is Elon Musk. going to dump a lot of money um uh. against my opponent? you know, if you're. that concerned about your security here. in the Senate, then, you know, maybe. it's not the place for you. You recently went viral for a comment. you made at a conference um in Alaska in. response to a question from the. audience. You said, "We are all afraid.

of retaliation," and that it made you. anxious to use your voice. Can you. explain what you meant by that? Because. there's been a lot of discussion. Yeah. And I didn't say that we're all afraid. of re retaliation. I did say we're all. afraid because I was I was um in a room. of about 500 550 nonprofits, many many of whom had received notices. that their grants had been cancelled, their grants had been uh frozen. And.

what was happening was there's just so. much uncertainty. It was not only the. grants, it was they couldn't find. anybody at an agency to even answer. their question as to what was happening. And so, everyone was on edge. Were they. going to lose their their employees? Were they going to be able to continue. to provide services for vulnerable women. and kids? Were they going to be able to. continue to build out that small hydro. project so that they could finally get. that village off diesel? Everyone.

Everyone was on edge and afraid. And the. question to me was, you know, what do. you say to those who are afraid? And it was one of those moments where. you're looking out to this sea of. people. And it was just they needed to. hear the honest answer that not only do. I hear how afraid you are, but we are. all afraid of this uncertainty. We are. all afraid of what may be coming next.

because we do not know. And then I said, "And retaliation is real." And I wasn't. saying anything that was new to anybody. because people were seeing that. They. were seeing that in in ways uh that were. different, whether it was retaliation to. universities or to individuals or at the. time it was uh the targeting of of.

specific law firms for clients that they. had represented previously proono for. January 6th. And and so I acknowledged. what people were feeling. and it made the news. It absolutely made. the news because sure did. It seemed. like nobody was willing to talk or to. verbalize. what everyone was feeling. And I think.

sometimes as as elected officials, we. feel we have to be that um that strong. voice. We have to pretend that. everything is okay. I I raised two boys. We fly a lot. And I can recall one trip. we were flying and there was just a lot. of turbulence. And uh my younger son was. like, "Oh, mom, it's it's it's like I. don't like that. I don't like that." And. I needed to be strong for the boys. And.

I came up with some crazy story about, oh, you know how when we go down the. road and it's just really bumpy and we. hit that one pothole and it's like and. it just jars. It's it's just like that. We're just going through this this bumpy. bumpy air. It's just fine. And inside. I'm just screaming like, "Oh my gosh, we're gonna go down." Um, and so. sometimes you need to be that strong. figure and tell everybody it's going to. be fine. Don't worry on that calming mom. voice. And other times it's okay to tell.

your kids, you know what, this is kind. of scary right now. Has there been fallout from that moment. from the administration, constituents, other politicians? Well, when you say um. fallout, what I have heard from. constituents, so many are very, very. appreciative that I've just called it. for what it is. Um I mean, deeply. grateful and I've made clear I don't.

have a lot of answers right now, but I. am going to listen to you and I am going. to try. And I have heard from some that. have said, you know, if if if you if you. feel so afraid that you can't use your. voice, you should just leave. What I. what I wanted to say is that yeah, there. are times when I really don't want to. speak up because I know that there could. be some backlash, but I have to take. that scary step and say, call it out and.

say, I don't think that this is the way. that we should handle our federal. employees. I have to stand up and say I. don't think that you can just summarily. say we have an emergency and and and now. we can apply unilateral global tariffs. I don't think that that is within your. lane and and so I've got to stand up and. push back and so I may be scared to do. it but I'm going to do it because you've. asked me to do it. Do you ever fear for.

your physical safety? Um, you know, I, uh, maybe it's because I. come from a place like Alaska where, uh, we're usually more afraid of bears and. moose, uh, and just kind of the natural. environment. Uh, well, we're in a. heightened moment. We are in a. heightened moment. And I political. violence. I I am aware that I need to be. more vigilant about my my safety. And. there are those who have have threatened.

me and they um they have suffered the. consequences. Uh they have been tried. and they have have uh served some time. I'd like to talk about your path to. politics. because in your book you say it shapes. so much of who you are. You were born. into a political family but ah no no. because when I was born my dad was in. banking. Ah, and he didn't he didn't. enter politics until he was 40.

I think he was 45. You also didn't. become a politician until you were in. midlife. Um, how do you think it affected you and. your ability to legislate that you had a. sort of whole life before you got. political power? I think it made all the. difference in the world. Um, as I have. viewed the the different phases in my. political career, uh, when I was in the. state legislature and and then being.

back here in Washington DC for many. years, I knew that what I was doing in. terms of public service, uh, my my. government service was important, but it. didn't define me. I always knew that. if I were to quit, if I were to leave, if I were to to lose, I would have a. pretty great life to go back to. And so. that has always been very freeing. The other thing that really comes.

through in the book is how much you. don't respect Sarah Palin. you write. about her, that you cringe when she was. campaigning as McCain's vice. presidential candidate, and that you. regret not putting your own name forward. because you thought at the time that. they'd never choose someone from Alaska, which is a red state. Actually, that was. my son's regret. He was like, "Mom, you need to you need. to tell John McCain that he needs to. select you to be vice president." And.

you write in the book that you had a. second. He said, "No way. There's no. way. We come from a state where there's. only three electoral votes. It's never. going to happen. And then of course John. picks Sarah Sarah Palin. Um and Nick. Nick still holds that over me. But you. know, it's interesting. Sarah Palin is. really uh she's an extraordinary figure. in in Alaskan history in terms of how. she came on this scene, small town. mayor. And uh and then in 2006, she.

ended up defeating your father. um and. became governor. She became governor and. that in and of itself was not anything. that should I should have held against. her and I didn't. But. she was always kind of testing the. waters, if you will, to see if the. Senate was going to be her next step. And so when you're the senator and you. just kind of get the sense that she's. checking out uh the job that she may or. may not want to to come to. Um so that.

caused um some level of of just I don't. know if it was friction. Um you're also. very different politicians. I mean very. different politicians. You you write. that she was sort of a precursor to the. Tea Party movement to in some ways the. populist MAGA movement that we're seeing. now that she was kind of the OG if you. will of those movements. she was and um. uh again when you think about her rise. not only within the state but but what.

caused her to be um selected by Senator. McCain and then just as she continued on. she had you know an incredible following. there was a magnetism to her that again. and I mentioned this in the book it's. not unlike what we see now with with. President Trump in terms of how that. populist appeal to to an individual. uh. we didn't have a personal relationship, but there were some human moments that.

um I still think back and and despite. all that I may have said about, you. know, I didn't think that she had just. curiosity about deep issues, um as a mom. and as a woman, we shared some. um we shared some just openness about. what it means to be in hard jobs when. you have families and uh you don't have.

the time to have coffee with your. friends or just be a real person. And so. I think there are some who think that. you know there's just this intense. dislike. Um we're just very very. different personalities. Um. but she's a good mom. You link Sarah Palin to then Joe Miller. who in 2010 was the Tea Party candidate. who challenged you in the primary and.

won and then you launched that historic. writing campaign and you kept your seat. You say in the book if Joe Miller were. running now he'd win. Can you explain. what you mean? Yeah. Well, um times. change, right? And Miller um was at the. time um somebody who was very very. conservative in his views and his. approach. I think very combative in many. ways um about how he presented himself.

Some of the things that Alaskans really. found distasteful were his aggressive. approach to to handling questions. Um, actually handcuffing a journalist. because he was offended by the. questions. And you know, at the time. it's shocking. You're a candidate. You're putting yourself out for the. voters to review and determine whether. you're worthy to serve. And just kind of.

a very arrogant approach. He was a Tea. Party conservative. I think more in the. in the line of the the MAGA camp right. now. And so it's a different. environment. Um, and I think that it it. could have had a different outcome. Why. do you think that's happened? What has. changed so much that a man who was. reviled back then for actions that now. are celebrated?

Well, the MAGA movement is very real. It. is one that um I think has gone beyond. just President Trump himself. um because he clearly. built advanced this movement. And so. there is a greater loyalty, perhaps an. unquestioning. loyalty. you can do just about anything. and your supporters still stick with.

you. Um, but there's also something like. when you look at your colleague, Senator. Joanie Ernst, who just said in regard to. the bill and people expressing concern. over cuts to Medicaid, well, we're all. going to die. And then doubling down in. a video basically making fun of those. who were concerned about that and about. her comments. There's a different. attitude politically that people are. adopting in order to break through in. order to communicate with the public.

that it is different that is unlike. anything that has come before it even. from someone who's normally quite sober. like Senator Joanie Ernst and and and. you know think about think about some of. the the things in the recent news you. know the the whole issue with uh. Secretary of Defense Hegsth and that. signal chat. and instead of saying, you know what, maybe that wasn't the smartest move, um, doubles down on on the defensive, I take.

it back to some of the things in my book. when I speak about the Kavanaaugh. nomination. And, you know, what was. reported was that President Trump was. was not impressed with Kavanaaugh's. performance until he was just loud, angry, and in self-defense. That was the. thing that actually turned me off most. most uh directly. And so you did not. vote for we should say Kavanagh's. confirmation. You also did not vote for. Secretary Hegsath um confirmation. So.

and so you're right in observing that. something is changing. I think what has. happened is we are not only more. accepting of confrontational behavior, we are expecting it. When did civil. society become so uncivil? When did we. cross that threshold where it is now. okay to be wholly partisan? I mean,

holy, holy partisan. We used to. celebrate bipartisanship, but now you're fratronizing with the. enemy. I I don't know what it is, but we. have we have become different. And I. don't think we've become different in a. good way. There was a sense and also reporting. confirming that during Trump's first. term that Republican senators were. supportive of Trump in public but were. more skeptical of him in private. Do you.

feel like the enthusiasm for him in your. caucus is more genuine this time around? I don't know if the answer to your. question is that um there's just greater. e acceptance of of President Trump this. this time around. You know, I I um I am. one I I made it clear in the in the. book. I didn't vote for for President. Trump in in the first um election and. and I didn't in the second. Um but.

he is the president. Do you speak with. him? I have. I haven't recently, but I. do speak with him. Um, but How long has it been? It's been. since he came into office. Okay. Yeah. Um, but. he is our president and I'm going to. find every way to work with him. for Alaska's benefit. And the way that I.

phrased it in the book, and it it was my. very first discussion with him ever was. in a telephone call right after he had. been elected. It was Thanksgiving, so he. hadn't been sworn in, and he knew that I. hadn't supported him, but I wanted to. weigh in with a recommendation for a. nominee for Secretary of the uh. Interior. I called him up cold, got the. number from Rob Portman and uh thought I. was going to just get a some appointment.

secretary and it was him and we had a. great conversation. He was very generous. uh with his time and and I just decided. to say look, you know, hey, you know, I. didn't support you. And he says, I know. that. Um and I said, but look, the way I. the way I look at it is you won and I. won. You want to do good things for the. country. I want to do good things for. Alaska. and he says, "We're going to get. along just fine." And and so I I go into. it with that attitude. I didn't vote for. President Biden, but I was able to get.

some things that were helpful for Alaska. during the Biden administration. And um. I'm going to work with with President. Trump. You've talked in this conversation about. how you feel the Senate is not acting. as a sort of check on the executive. Um, the Congress, the Congress, the. Congress, the whole Congress needs to to. be more of a check. I want to ask you about President. Trump's conflicts of interest, specifically his mean coins, his use of.

his office to reward investors. Do you see that as corruption? And. should Congress be doing something about. that? You know, does it look bad to invite uh. serious substantial investors to a. dinner in the White House to promote. your your your Bitcoin? Um yeah, I you. know, I think it looks bad. Is it.

corruption? No. I I am one who believes that. it is right. to hold your elected officials, particularly those at the highest. levels, to highest standards. And so. appearances of impropriy, I think, actually matter. But we've we've kind of come to this. point where it's like almost like. whatever. Um,

I can hear people listening to this and. going, "But you're a senator. You. shouldn't be saying whatever if this. matters." No, and I'm I'm not saying. that. I'm saying that the outcry that. you would receive from from a. constituency. is is is just muted. like we've become numb. to. what others would say. Well, no, that's.

not that's not appropriate. I mean, when. it comes to the law, right, if if you've. violated a law, we're we're seeing we're. seeing these matters then go before the. court, right? But but when it is where. it's something that. you would just not have seen it before. and now it's like well you know that's. that's just what we're seeing. It's it's. it's not just that it has been done but. that it is viewed as not surprising.

I can hear in your voice. maybe I'm reading into this but a sort. of. sadness. Yes. I sadness, I think, is the. word. Yes. Yeah. And it and it is. because. um and maybe it's because I've I've been. here in Washington for over two decades. now and I've been through multiple. presidents. Some I really liked and some.

that I didn't really like that much. Um. there were policy things that we just. would disagree on or we would really. celebrate. But uh with a few with a few. failures um character. uh kind of the integrity of the. individual was not something that we. would call into to question. There was a. time when we just had higher. expectations again of integrity and.

tolerance and manners. Um, but. I don't know. I I I try not to sound. like like everybody's mom, but it it. bothers me that um that we are not more. conscientious and respectful of one. another. It bothers me that we are not. kind towards one another in how how. we're viewing our differences. Do you. think this will be your last term in the.

Senate? Uh, you know, it was an interesting. conversation with my family to to decide. if we were going to run this last time. Um, because it was kind of a natural. transition. It was just about about 20. years. And it was it was surprising. because I fully anticipated all of them. to say, "All right, you've you've had a. good run." Um, but every one of them. said, "If you have the energy and the.

desire to do it, you've got my our. blessing." So, I'm going to evaluate it. in in two years. I've got another four. years left. I'm going to evaluate it. another two years and and and see where. we go. But. I it's just when you're talking about. seeming like you're from another era, right? Like I kind of feel like that. Yeah. And so I guess. I guess the question is do you think. that people still want Alisa Marowski in.

the Senate? It's a great question and um. I don't want this to sound. like I'm something super special, but I. think there is a need for there to be. those who are are willing to stand in. the middle. Those who are willing to say. it it ought not be about our party. loyalty. It ought not be wholly partisan.

all the time. I think people want that. and I hear from so many around the. country who are like, "Thank you for. being that voice in the middle. Thank. you for reminding us that we can be. something other, that Congress can be. something other than just this this ugly. uh divide of of partisan um politics. But it's kind of lonely out there right. now.

Lisa Marowski. Sorry, Senator Lisa. Marowski. Thank you very much. I would. be happy with just Lisa Marowski cuz. that's what everybody back home calls. me. Just Lisa. We'll talk again. I. appreciate your time. Thank you. [Music]. After the break, I call Senator Marowski. back at the capital and we talk about. the escalating situation in California.

and also how she deals with the. expectation from some that she'll be a. Trump era savior. Believe me, being the hero is not not a. position that I want to be. I I want to. be helpful. And I've gotten myself in an. unlikely spot where people are looking. to me for for answers in different areas. that I certainly hadn't anticipated. [Music].

[Music]. Senator Macowski, thank you so much uh. for talking with me again. It's been a. week since we spoke, but in our. political timeline, it's like three. years, I think, because so much seems to. have happened. Last week, we were.

talking about Elon Musk. This week we. have protests in California. President. Trump talking about possibly jailing the. governor of California and the Marines. are mobilizing on American soil. I think. I'm just going to start with asking you. how you're seeing what's happening. Well, you you said it. It's been a week. Um what what we're seeing in Los Angeles. right now is disturbing. Um deeply. disturbing. We recognize the role of.

protests, peaceful protests in healthy. democracies. This is important. But what. we're seeing with the level of of. violence against law enforcement, destruction of property, wrong. But but. what I think so many of us are concerned. with is what we are seeing in response. to that. First, President Trump without. working through the governor of. California uh calling up the the.

National Guard to come in uh to Los. Angeles and then uh the deployment of. Marines to the area. I think it's fair. to say unprecedented. um in terms of a response and and one. that I find deeply concerning. We do. have laws. We have an understanding that. our our military is not to be used on. our own people. So,

uh is this a test from President Trump. uh in terms of his authorities? One has to wonder. Last week, we discussed. your concerns about the direction of our. politics, the partisanship, the lack of. decorum. And there is, as I'm sure you're aware, this larger concern among many. Democrats, independents about the state.

of our democracy. And in Alaska, these. are your voters, too, because of the. makeup of the state and the way that. rank choice voting works. And so I I was. left wondering, are you worried about. our democracy and how power is being. wielded by this government? I think we as Americans should always be. worried about our democracy. Um, every. day we we we need to fight for. democracy. I just didn't really think it.

was going to be this fight against our. ourselves that we're seeing right now. um this whole beautiful notion of of the. um the separate but equal branches of. government, the the the the fine balance. that we have uh that outlines the. individual powers of the executive, of. the legislative, of the of the. judiciary. It's tenuous and we always. kind of find our our level of.

equilibrium. Um I'm talking to a lot of people that. are asking me uh if it's just their. imagination or if if the equilibrium is. so out of balance we will not regain it. I refuse to believe that we are not able. to regain it. But right now um it is as. uh it I think it's dangerous for us in. the legislative branch right now um when. we are not standing up for for our roles.

under the constitution and we. effectively seed to to the executive. You're speaking in sort of vague terms. The executive is Donald Trump. Do you. think President Trump wants to be an. authoritarian leader? Because that is. the specific worry that has been. articulated over and over. I don't know if he is is looking to be. an authoritarian leader or if he is if.

it is Donald Trump being Donald Trump. and that we as a country have said. that's the type of leader that that uh. that we want for right now. This is the. type of leader that we got behind and. and and the country voted for. But we. know through reporting that a lot of. what we're seeing by this administration. have been planned for a while. Many of. the people in this administration looked. at Hungary and other countries with. strongman leaders for ideas on how to.

amass more central power going after. places they see as liberal bastions like. universities and law firms and the. media. Do you see that when you look at. what what is happening? don't know how I want to respond to that. because I've I've said in in my book. that I didn't think that that Donald. Trump. um.

was was able to uh divine the direction. that he did in his first administration. now having had the benefit of of four. years to be thinking about what he. wanted to do, how he wanted to do it, working with those who wanted to see. that done. Do I think that this is more. clearly planned and orchestrated?

Absolutely. Is that your phone? Oh, it's the uh bell. to the I think we're adjourning. Oh, okay. Um there was a long pause there and you. were very careful about the words you. used. Can you tell me when you're. answering a question like that, what. goes through your mind? What what are. the calculations you're making in being. so careful? Well, first of all, I I'm careful.

because I know that my words matter. because I have been one who has been. critical of President Trump when I feel. like uh the criticism is merited. Um, some of my colleagues will will say that. they may disagree when we're in quiet. conversation, but not willing to to say. it out loud. And I I have I have. ventured out. Um but I don't want to say.

things just to be mean-spirited. I don't. want to say things that that I really. haven't given consideration to. And so I. I I do I do pause and I do think about. all right what are the right words to. say? And again I am very cognizant of. the fact that President Trump was. returned to office. there was nobody was. arguing about whether or not he won or. or didn't w win. Uh in my state, he is.

quick to remind folks that he won by a. significant margin and there are many. people who who feel very strongly about. him and I am supportive of many of his. initiatives particularly when they come. to to resources. So, it's not that. you're trying to walk this line where uh. I don't offend anybody because I think I. managed to offend people equally on both. sides. Sometimes because I have spoken. out and some sometimes because I haven't.

spoken out enough. And that is just the. way it is. Yeah. I mean, you're getting. at something here because fairly or. unfairly, people look at you and they. see someone who is either. standing up for the things that she. believes in or someone who is. equivocating maybe at moments when. perhaps more is called for. And in. fairness, I actually talk about that a.

fair amount in the book, saying um that, you know, oftentimes I'm I'm not well. understood. People can't figure it out. You know, they'll listen to me talk. about the impacts of climate change on. my state and then they'll see that I've. just introduced a bill to open up Anoir. and they look at that and they say, "Well, that's absolutely positively. inconsistent or hypocritical. you you. you name it. But again, if you.

if you know me and you understand where. I'm coming from, you would say, "Oh, no, that actually uh that actually makes. sense." I think you also find that when. people who um like the fact that I have. pushed back on say for instance I did. not support um Pete Hegathth as. Secretary of Defense and um I got many.

people who contacted me and said good. for you. Thank you. I think that that. was absolutely the right vote. You're. doing great. And then um the next. nominee that comes up uh I vote for him. or her and the response is just pure. vitriol like we thought that you were. with us. We thought that you you know. that you understood how bad all of these. nominees are. And uh I'm looking at it.

from the perspective of look is is the. individual have they disqualified. themselves one way or another in my. view. Um I've got to balance that but. I've also got to balance the fact that I. have said that presidents are are by and. large entitled to have their cabinet. Do. you regret though Robert Kennedy Jr.? Well I'm mad at Robert Kennedy Jr. Now. because of this announcement with the.

vaccine board where he has he's. dismissed the entire board the board and. his response to and in the hearings he. made it understood that he was going to. leave it alone and he had and consult. and consult and he said that he's trying. to restore the the credibility or the. the trust in the board. I don't think. this is how you do it because it makes. it look like now he's going to put in. everybody of of his liking which is not. how you restore trust. So, uh yeah, I I.

don't like that. Um, I guess the I guess. the question that people who might be. critical of you would say, understanding that you feel that the. cabinet is under the purview of the. president, Robert Kennedy Jr. is someone. who has always made it clear what his. views on vaccines are. Well, but keep in. mind that there are other things that he. is charged with as Secretary of Health.

and Social Services where I actually. agree with him. I'll tell you one of the. things that that uh we have had a good. connection on um as the Secretary of. Health and Human Services, he is also. head of the Indian Health Services. Um. very important for my state where we. have half the tribes in the in the. country. And I'll tell you, when they. when they announced those first layoffs. with the probationary. uh staff, Kennedy called me up on a.

Saturday morning, I was in Alaska and it. was early my time, but he called me up. to say, "You need to know." They told me. that I was supposed to find 10% cuts. across the board for IHS. And I told. them I wouldn't do it for IHS. That IHS. has chronically been underfunded. We. cannot go backwards and I'm not going to. do that. And so I I'm not going to be. able to find folks within a Trump. administration, a Biden administration,

Obama administration, a Bush. administration, um where I'm agreeing. with all of the nominees that are out. there. But what I've got to figure out. is how I can work with these people. How. I can get them to return my calls. How I. can get them to to figure out how we're. going to get the IFQ permits for the. halibet and the sable fish that uh. Secretary Lutnik has no interest in. I've got to figure out how to interest. him and and make a connection. What I'm. hearing you say is that you're not.

interested in being anyone's either. savior or or villain. that that isn't. the role that you see for yourself. Oh. yeah, absolutely. I um believe me, I I. do not enjoy taking pot shots just to. just so I can get in the news and and. being the hero is not not a position. that I want to be. I I want to be. helpful. I want to be there for the. people that I serve. And I've I've.

gotten myself in an unlikely spot where. because. in an effort to just say things as they. are, people are looking to me for for. for answers um in different areas that I. certainly hadn't anticipated. It's not. necessarily something that I'm. welcoming. Uh but if I can if I can do. right by Alaska by um by taking on um.

added role um using my voice and um. speaking as I as I feel is is is right. and appropriate and timely. Um that's. what I'm going to do. My last question. Do you worry. sometimes, Senator Marowski, that in. focusing on. sableish. and all these things that are important. for your constituents,

you might be missing the broader. question of what is happening to this. country. I think I get my strength. to do the hard things on the big things. by knowing that. I can help. the fisherman back home. And so it's not. one at the expense of the other,

but I have to get I have to get my. reservoirs built up. And so when I get. that when I get that um thank you, we. were able to get our permits to get out. there on the water on the day that I'd. paid my crew to do it. Um I know that. I'm doing something right. And when you. know you're doing something right, it it. makes it easier to just kind of face the. storm and say, "We got some we got some. heavy lift that we've got to do." And so.

it's a fair question and you've you've. framed it in a way that I I perhaps had. not thought of. Uh. uh I need more hours in my day, days in. my week to do everything. Um, but I. can't lose sight that that fisherman. that's counting on me is also counting. on on being free in this country on um. living in a in a place where uh he knows.

that uh we remain a country of laws and. that nobody is above the law. uh and. that his. the his safety and and the freedoms of. his family are going to be appreciated. [Music]. That's Senator Lisa Marowski. Her book, Far From Home: An Alaskan Senator Faces. the Extreme Climate of Washington DC, is.

on sale June 24th. This conversation was. produced by Wyatt Orm. It was edited by. Allison Benedict. Mixing by Sonia Ero. and Aphim Shapiro. Original music by Dan. Powell, Pat McCusker, and Marian Lozano. Photography by Philip Montgomery. Our. senior booker is Pria Matthew. And Seth. Kelly is our senior producer. Our. executive producer is Allison Benedict. Special thanks to Rory Walsh, Renan. Burelli, Jeffrey Miranda, Nick Pitman, Mattie Miello, Jake Silverstein, Paula.

Schuman, and Sam Dolnik. If you like. what you're hearing, follow or subscribe. to The Interview wherever you get your. podcasts. To read or listen to any of. our conversations, you can always go to. ny times.com/thein. And you can email us anytime at the. interview@ny times.com. Next week, David. talks with comedian and podcaster Andrew. Schultz. When you talk for two or three. hours on a podcast every week, you can. take excerpts from it and make me look. like the sweetest, kindest, like loving.

dad. you can make me look like an. absolute tyrant. And that's the cost. that we have to take on from putting out. content. We can't complain about that. I'm Lula Garcia Navaro and this is the. interview from the New York Times. [Music].