In His New Show ‘Half Man,’ Richard Gadd Confronts Men’s Sexual Repression | The Interview

The big turning point in my life was. being sexually abused, groomed, all that. kind of stuff. I mean, that that was no. doubt where I felt like my whole. physiology, psychology, sense of self. changed. >> [music]. >> Writer and actor Richard Gadd's Netflix. series [music] Baby Reindeer. unexpectedly became not just a critical. hit, but one of the streamer's most. popular shows ever. Unexpectedly, [music]. because Gadd was a relative unknown when. he made Baby Reindeer, and it's a. strikingly original as it is unsettling.

>> I will repeatedly go back to this man's. house and let him abuse me. for a little beep. of fame. >> The show is based on Gadd's own. experiences as a victim of sexual. assault and [music] stalking. >> I knew she was mad, and I knew she was. dangerous, but she flattered me. And that was enough. And it catapulted. the star into the spotlight, bringing an. intense amount [music] of attention to. his personal and professional life. But. rather than shy away, Gadd's response. has been to go deeper. His new show, [music] Half Man, which will air on HBO,

follows a decades-long mutually. destructive friendship between two. Scottish men, one played [music] by. Gadd. You messed up my life. Unlike Baby Reindeer, the new show is. not based on his own life, but it. tackles many of the same themes: sexual. [music] confusion, masculinity, and the. long shadow of trauma, all of which Gadd. is still trying to understand in both. his art and in his life. Here's my conversation with Richard. Gadd.

Richard, thank you for taking the time. to speak with me today. Thanks very much for for having me. I'm. I'm excited to be here. I need you to. explain why you're sitting in a in a. nicely appointed comfortable-looking. room with a fireplace, and and I'm. sitting in my. sparse and slightly depressing-looking. home office. >> [laughter]. >> And that's because on the day on the. morning we're speaking, there was a. giant blizzard on the East Coast, which. has prevented me from getting into the. office. So, we're trying to do like the. DIY punk rock version of of the.

interview, and that's why it looks a. little funny, and maybe we'll sound a. little funny, but. that's what's going on if you're. wondering. Oh, oh, all good. I've been. trying hard not to imagine what the rest. of the room looks like, but I won't make. you turn the camera and show me. >> [laughter]. >> But I want to start with a question that. maybe doesn't have any simple or. straightforward answer. Mhm. You know, you're you were someone who. you know, for years. were working as a as a performer, you. know, you did stand-up comedy, but the.

work itself was often intentionally. alienating. You know, you did a lot of. anti-comedy. It's not like you were. trying to make, you know, you've been. trying for years to make some mainstream. thing, and then finally Baby Reindeer. was the thing. You you were kind of. doing your your own. weird thing. And so, as a result of. that, I imagine that the possibility of. enormous mainstream success was probably. not even really on your radar as as. something that. was going to happen in your career. But.

what did achieving success. show you about the reality of what. success can do for you or can't do for. you emotionally? >> [snorts]. >> The best thing about success is that it. leads to opportunity for me, cuz all I. really ever care about is writing the. next thing or working on the next thing. or trying to. you know, explore more things that I. want to do. It's not as fame, on the. other hand, is is an interesting thing. that I think I still come to terms with. You know, I think at the best times I'm.

a self-conscious person. And and I think like. it's so funny I always look back on. those, as you say, those kind of early. comedy days where I was performing this. alienating sort of comedy style to to to. comedy clubs up and down the country. I. I used to think, why is no one getting. this? This is. >> [laughter]. >> This is This is at the This is the cusp. of brilliance this right here. And it's. so I find it so good that I can look. back in that and kind of laugh at myself. because. I think fame. has led to a certain degree of. discomfort in in the way I go about my.

life now. You always have to think about. like what you're doing and where you're. going and. uh. like not so much about just in like, oh, I hope there's not too many people here. I I I worry about people coming up to me. and and and not that it's ever bad when. people come up to me. They're all almost. like projections of my own fear, but. that is also a byproduct of fame, you. know, because people who come up to me, if not all the time, tend to be really. really nice. But I still, because I think I'm just. wired to think. uh. think in an anxious way, I always think.

there's something something is lurking. that might be. hard to deal with in in a social. situation. But but I I think in a lot of. ways like. I'm quite a reclusive guy in a lot of. ways, which I don't think people kind of. realize. And I it didn't really change. like. the way I live my life. All I was ever. interested in doing was was taking Baby. Reindeer and building on the success. with. hopefully different pieces of of work. and art. The new show, Half Man, raises so many questions about.

masculinity, right? It's one of the. central themes of the show is what does. it mean to be a man? What does manhood. look like? Yeah. And that was also a. question that comes up in Baby Reindeer. in various ways. Do you have a have an. answer to the question, what does it. mean to be a man? For for yourself? Ah, well, that's a pretty. it's a tough one to answer. I mean, it's. tricky. It's tricky. I definitely I. remember like a press release going out. with Half Man saying it will get to the. bottom of the question. what it means to be a man. And I.

remember, [laughter] you know, I was in. a really busy writing process at that. point of view. And then a press release. comes to your desk, you're like, I don't. have time for this. Yeah, that's fine. And so, I think I worry that quite a lot. of people are heading into Half Man with. with with me somehow answering an almost. existentially impossible question. But I. for myself, no, because I think I suppose that's why I. do. write these themes and these things. And. and a lot of the characters, particularly essential characters, go on. these kind of soul-searching journeys of. self-discovery because I think I've.

always had a sort of like. a void within me that that I can't quite. explain or like a a certain sort of. a hole in the soul or whatever that I. that I think perhaps comes I'm not sure. about this, but perhaps comes from. pressures that I felt as a man in my. life. But in terms of answering. questions, I. I think it offers questions. I I don't. think it answers them. What were some of. the struggles or or open-ended questions. around manhood that you felt like you've. had to come to terms with? Yeah,

absolutely. I I certainly think like a. lot of. the way. sort of a certain sense of broken. masculinity operates in in in today's. sort of society can be traced back to. certain societal repressions which. happened years ago. Um you know, the '80s in this country. was a very unforgiving time. for for people who grew up different to. to to to everyone else. And and I think. that leads to repression, which can lead. in general to to sort of broken and. damaging behavior in in later life. And.

and that was what I wanted to explore. I. wanted to sort of show these sort of. deeply entrenched sort of things that. affect us in our childhood and how they. manifest in their adulthood. I know it's. this is kind of like quite heavy stuff. to get into, but there's certainly. things that happened in my life that. I've spoken about publicly that I found. very hard to come to terms with due to. draconian false ideas that that that. this doesn't happen to a man and this. shouldn't happen to a man. And. and that. men shouldn't be vulnerable in this way. All stuff that I've I've rejected. And.

in fact, being. I guess vulnerable or or kind of. admitting to to to my my my my. biggest secrets of whatever has led to. the biggest freedom in my life. >> I I assume you're referring to the. assault that happened to you. But the thing that you said was that ex-. or alluded to was that exploring the. ideas or making them talking about them. has been liberating. Um and that's. that's related to something I wanted to. ask about because in. you know, Half Man, you know, you do. talk about these ideas again of of.

manhood, of of, you know, people caught. in in mutually. I don't know I don't know if destructive. is quite the right word, but sort of. mutually complicated relationships. Uh. there are. themes of abuse. in Half Man. And and these are themes. that also came up in in Baby Reindeer. And the thing that I want to know about. is how do you achieve that sort of. liberation through making art about. these traumatic. personal ideas? Like is Do Do you find.

it cathartic? Is it Is it healing? Is. there some moment at which you're able. to go like. okay, I've sort of moved forward in my. processing of of this experience? It's. kind of interesting. I I I I think I. find I think. you know, I I I I I think because of. Baby Reindeer people people come up and. they tell me things, you know, and. and and and I say I can never give. advice, but try writing it down. And I. often feel like when we. keep something in our head or keep it. inside of us, it grows to it can grow to.

intolerable levels, like intolerable. levels. And I think. um the shame and fear and guilt and all. the feelings around sort of. >> [sighs and gasps]. >> uh. complicity or complicated all the. complicated stuff and and the fact that. I. even. feeling like an idiot was a big part of. of sort of like. the battle that I faced with everything. I I I. I I it built to intolerable levels where. I felt like all I was doing was whipping. like a. a billiard ball around my head over and.

over and over and over again to the. point where it was just ricocheting. harder and harder each time. And. and it got to the point where like it. was intolerable. And I think I really. had a choice cuz I couldn't keep it in. any longer, really. And I And I think. what art did is the first thing I ever. did before I spoke to anyone about it. was I I sort of wrote it down. And I. think what art has always done and what. it's always given to me is is is a. playground to explore things that I'm. sort of struggling with. And that's kind. of all I really wanted to do. I I I also. wanted to sort of understand, you know, masculinity is such a talked about word.

And it has such a sort of gravitational. pull in a way. It's a big weighty sort. of word. And I I I really wanted to. to sort of explore male camaraderie and. the male connection, which seems to be. almost transcendental in a way and. sometimes unexplained. And I really. wanted to dig deep into that. And I. think, you know, toxic masculinity, which which I'm sure is a word that. people are probably going to synonymize. with the show in a lot of ways. I think for something to be toxic, you. know, like drugs are toxic, but they.

have to be intoxicating as well, you. know, to to begin with. And I think that. the normalization of these things that. were so casually thrown around in the. '80s on TV, in society, words, slurs, all these kinds of things. They they lead to a repression in people. who are scared to admit. certain things. But really I I I just. really wanted to to kind of get into the. whole messy, complicated. um subject. >> Yeah. Is there anything about yourself. that you're still scared to admit?

>> [snorts]. >> Probably. Probably. You know, I think. almost like the journey of life is. trying to come to terms with yourself, you know. And I I and I think almost. like. you can stumble through life not. knowing. I've always been quite confused. sexually, which is something I've always. kind of spoken about. Even as I sit here, you know, 36-year-old, I still feel I still. sometimes feel confused. I still sort of. feel like and and I've tried to take. many labels in my life. You know, and and the labels never. brought me any sort of comfort. Like you.

know, comfort comes from within. It. always does. No no external. answer usually exists to an internal. conflict in in in my opinion. And so and. I certainly think with me the. inconsistencies, the confusing nature of. life, the fact I've never really felt. settled in any camp. That's okay. And and accepting that I. might never stand on solid ground is a. form of acceptance that I didn't realize. I might have to come to terms with. And that's kind of the way it is. I. think sometimes accepting that is is.

half the battle. Um I think a lot of men. have had the experience, particularly in. adolescence, of being. either friends with or drawn to. uh other guys who. exhibit what we would call toxic. masculinity or just in general. antisocial behavior. Like I know I know. that there were periods in my life where. I was hanging around with guys who. were kind of kind of like not.

well-adjusted. dudes who did kind of not well-adjusted. things. But there there is there is an. an attraction to that. >> But I I I just wonder if you had any. particular relationships. that you were thinking of or drawing on. when you were creating the central. relationship of Half Man, which is. between Nile, who played by Jamie Bell, who's sort of a more I guess you could. say more sensitive younger man, [clears throat] and and Reuben, played.

by you as an as an adult, uh who just is. is you know, the word that comes to mind. is is antisocial, just struggling with. so much more. Were there relationships. that you were thinking about or you. know, drawing on in some way? I think I. must have been on a sort of subconscious. level, you know. I I sort of I I think. they must have been drawn. I mean, there. were certainly people in my school who. who were terrifying. And there were. certainly people in my neighborhood who. were terrifying. There were certainly. people that I would pray weren't on a. bus when I was getting on the bus and.

all these kinds of things. And I. certainly think I have encountered. people in my life who are prone to. phenomenal violence, for sure. And. almost like as a knee-jerk reaction to. to to any anything almost. And I I you. know, I I can't say that it was drawn on. anyone in particular at all. In fact, it. definitely wasn't. But I certainly think. I've encountered enough intimidating. male behavior to be able to to draw on. to draw on it, and I think really, you know, Reuben. like. it's an interesting one cuz I'm keen to.

see what people think of Reuben in a lot. of ways. And I have a feeling. I even hope that I have this weird. feeling that people might like him more. than you might expect because. >> [gasps]. >> I think like he runs on a river of pain. And I think there are a lot of men and I. think the people who might like him are. a lot of men who act like him because I. think they might. >> Right. Hyper-aggressive, macho. >> Yeah. Fixated on male power. Yeah. And. they might see someone like Reuben and. they might realize what they've been. running from all this time. But uh.

something somewhere has happened that. has made them be that defensive, that. insecure in a way. And I thought that. that was worth exploring. I I really. did. I I I I feel. you know, I I don't know whether this is. too empathetic, but but I I feel like a. lot of male violence comes from a. violence that they they have suffered. before. Half Man is very different from. Baby Reindeer in many ways, but as I. said at the outset, thematically it. shares a lot. Uh. but also there there's there are a. couple times in Half Man, this is not a.

spoiler at all, a couple times in Half. Man where. the the character of Reuben mockingly. refers to the character of Nile as. as Bambi. Mhm. And I thought, is this. are you making some sort of It's a nod. to Baby Reindeer, right? Actually, no. And it's funny because. Well, you know, people are going to read. it that way, right? I guess so. I mean I mean, that was the. funny thing because the script. You could have. >> [laughter]. >> picked any. any animal in the world and you picked a.

reindeer. >> Yeah. Yeah, well well, I think I think I. think I think I think I think I think I. think. >> I guess maybe there's some maybe I have. a sort of subconscious love for them. I'm not sure, but but I I sort of I. think like I you know, it's funny cuz. it's funny you say that cuz I did I did. wonder if people would think that. But. but if you look at the script that I. wrote that was written before Baby. Reindeer. >> It had Bambi. >> had Bambi in it. And and it was only a. way to to sort of mock him to use a name. that innately sort of patronizes Nile.

and mock him and and show that he's like. a deer and nice. Like he's he's and it. was only a way for Reuben to sort of. you know, like a lot of I guess alpha. presences do. They they find different. ways to undermine you so they assert. their dominance over you. And I thought. Bambi was a very It's almost like one of. those nicknames you can give someone. that you can't quite tell if you're. insulting them or not. It's quite. effective by Reuben, you know. And it's. but it is like it is demeaning in a lot. of ways, but it's hard to kind of. pinpoint that. And so even in later on. in the series when it's used again, it. is used provocatively. And I needed a. name like that for for the relationship.

to operate. But I don't think I'll ever. be able to convince the world. >> No. even yourself [laughter] that it. isn't some Baby Reindeer reference. So I. think I'm going to I'm going to have to. live with. >> something floating around in your mind. [laughter]. But tell me about a little bit more. about inhabiting Reuben because. even just your physical transformation. for him. is quite striking. I think you gained I. don't know how much 50 lb of muscle or. something like that to to play him. But. how did you get into that body and and. into that mindset? I knew it was like a.

huge undertaking because I think like. I knew that in order to explore. what what people consider a sort of. alpha male. character, I needed to be big in my body. like I did. I needed to be big. You. know, I worked out 6 days a week. I had. them nutritionist. I had the meals made. for me and sent to me and I had to eat. them at certain times. And I didn't [snorts] stray from my diet. once apart from on on days where I do. topless scenes where, you know, you.

would you would go through a process of. sort of dehydration almost like a like a. >> the muscles more defined, right? >> the muscles more defined. And it's a it. is incredible how it works. You know, I. would be looking at myself in the mirror. the day before thinking I'm just not. there. I'm just not there. And then you. go through a very intense, and I can't. believe how intense it is, period period. of sweating your your yourself down to. to make the muscles more defined as you. say. Uh and it's kind of incredible. Do. Do you feel uh like you're someone who. who has to be uh sort of conscientious.

or intentional about his relationship. with his own body? Yeah, I think I think I think I I think. I do. I think I'm always. down on it. And I think I sometimes even. look at sort of Reuben sometimes feel. like. I wish [snorts] I could have pushed a. bit more. I wish I could have maybe been. a bit bigger. And and I think I think a. lot of gym-goers, certainly gym-goers I. know speak to a a certain sense. I don't. want to use this word like but sort of a. body like insecurity and not being able. to just kind of see the reality. It's. like I know so many guys. >> It's almost like dysmorphia almost.

>> Dysmorphia, exactly. That was the. the word I was reaching for. And I think. I think like and I think I certainly you. have it. I certainly would have it with. my my personal trainer. I'd be like, "Listen, I need to get bigger. What are. we going to do? What are we going to. do?" And he'd be like, "You're fine. You're good. You're big. You're big.". But you don't notice because when you're. like I didn't notice because it was. incremental changes cuz you look at. yourself in the mirror every day. You. don't notice you're changing. It's other. people that notice you're changing. And. I think it's so innately human to to. have sort of. body issues or body insecurities, for. sure. And so.

now I want to ask a little bit about. something that you. alluded to earlier, but um. like there there was obviously a huge. shift for you in so many ways as a. result of Baby Reindeer. Mhm. And and. so, you know, I think for. many artists, particularly artists who. have been working for a long time, you. know, kind kind of. >> [clears throat and snorts]. >> on the margins a little bit. There there. might be a sense of. you know, sort of shooting towards.

having a larger success and then sort of. that. recognition or sort of validation might. fill some sort of hole that was there. before. You know, it's like if when when. I get successful, I will feel different. or. that that kind of thing. Did Did you. have any of those sorts of. realizations or feelings? Yeah, you. know, it's funny like I I think Baby. Reindeer explored this in a lot of ways, you know, I remember Donny Dunn's. monologue at the end of the show, which.

is always that kind of the famous bit in. Baby Reindeer where he kind of goes um. fame, they they see you as famous. They. don't think of all these other things. that I'm scared they're thinking, like. this guy's this and this guy's that. Now having lived that out, I don't I'm. not sure that's quite the reality. I. think in a lot of ways I I always think. the bad things start times times a. million now cuz there's more people. looking at me. So it's funny. I mean, I'm I'm jesting to a certain degree, but. I. I think there is that that idea that a. lot of artists I think.

I think a lot of artists chase success. cuz I think they think it answers a sort. of internal problem. But I I do. >> that's what I'm getting at, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I I I do think. with me. it didn't provide me. answers really. It led to kind of things. in my life that I liked and it led to to. things in my life that I appreciate like. I said before, like opportunities, which. is always just all I really want anyway. But in terms of answering sort of deep. soul-driven questions, I don't think it did that in any way,

shape or form. And I I would caution. against anyone really chasing fame for. that very reason. I think chasing. success can be great for motivating you. and pulling you out of. the trenches of of deep discomfort and. all these kinds of things. But but I. think chasing fame, the idea of idolatry. and being loved. will never answer the question of. whether you love yourself. It really. does come from within and I I'm not. saying I do love myself. I love myself a. lot more than I did 10 years ago, but I. still have a long way to go. And it's. funny, I I I always thought of myself as.

a fairly sort of cultured person, you. know, but but I always remember the. ending of RuPaul's Drag Race where he go. how the hell like if you can't love. yourself, how the hell you going to love. someone else? Can I get an amen? I'm. like, [laughter] oh, Ru, you're killing. me right now. And. and and for a reason, I would always. watch that and I'd always like sit. uncomfortably in my chair because it's. so true, you know. It's just so true. Yeah, that's very. interesting. Um. I wonder if it connects to what you said.

earlier about. always feeling sort of a hole in the. soul. And it it's interesting cuz I. listened to the interview that you did. with Marc Maron probably 2 years ago, something like that. And you used that. exact same phrase, hole hole in the soul. as something that you you felt. And I I. wondered if you had any clarity about. where that hole came from. I I think. I think I mean, the big turning point in. my life was being sexually abused, groomed, all that kind of stuff. I mean, that that was no doubt where.

things started to. um [snorts]. you know, like where where I felt like. my whole physiology, psychology, sense. of self changed dramatically overnight. and I felt sort of completely. disconnected to to to to to to the. world, you know. Um. you know, Jesus, I just remember like. I remember I was just in London, you. know, like I I I I was working at a pub. and. I I sort of was so skint that like I.

could only ever really afford the bus. cuz the tube was too expensive. So I. just walk everywhere and I just walk. everywhere and I lived so far away from. Camden where the pub was and I I I sort. of just um. I just remember just feeling so. disconnected from life, just wandering. around these streets where no one ever. even looks at you. And. And so I think like a large part of my. sort of existential crisis sort of. happened there. But if I look back at my. life, I I I do think that there was. always a an insecurity and a kind of. listlessness or a sort of like a.

wondering of some kind, you know, like I. even think of like at the time when I. went to university, you know, when I I. left home to go to. Glasgow and I just remember this kind of. cloak of self-consciousness kind of. coming over over me and I and I just. felt so lost and insecure and like I. didn't I didn't know who to be or what. to do and I probably tried to be several. different people before I tried to be. myself and. and I just remember that also being odd. Like when I was out in the world and I. had to fend for myself, I I didn't. really know.

that I even had a self to fend for. It. was it was a very strange feeling. So I. think that hole in the soul has always. been there and I I guess like in the end. I always turn to art. I think a lot of. the reason people create art is to find. some sort of meaning in life where where. where they felt none in a lot of ways. They they. search for answers in a lot of ways. Um. yeah, and and. I guess that's the journey I'm on as. well. What was the experience like of. you know, not only.

becoming a sort of a. publicly recognizable figure, but. becoming a recognizable figure for a. piece of work that was so much about a. trauma that you suffered. You know, it's. it's like you know, it's. one person's. bingeable show was the worst event of. your life. Yeah. >> That's a strange seems to me like a. strange state to.

sort of. inhabit or like two strange experiences. to be the bridge between in a way. Did. you feel any strangeness around that? >> Yeah, it was very sort of. it was very destabilizing and and very. sort of interesting. I never want to act. like I didn't think Baby Reindeer was. going to be a success. I I really did. think it was going to be a success. Like. I really did think that. But did [clears throat] I think it would. be a sort of mainstream sensation at one. point in the kind of top 10 Netflix sort. of most watched. English-speaking shows of all time? I I. didn't.

I didn't think for a second it was going. to do that. And then that of course brings with it a. kind of multitude of. opinions and comments on your Instagram. page, which can be quite like God, they. have a they have a lot to say. And some. of those opinions can be quite harsh and. they can be quite hard to read and all. these kinds of things. But. it's kind of what you sign up for. Like. I I I I I sort of almost like I've read. a lot of like difficult things, but I've. I kind of like kind of got used to it in. a way. It's hard to describe. I think I.

found the whole process on the whole. quite healing actually more than. anything else. But there was difficult. moments and and it was difficult putting. my life for people to dissect and and. and have opinions over. >> I'm I'm maybe trying to get at something. just slightly different. It's not so. much about you know, critical reaction. or or people having opinions about the. work. But let me let me try and in. and I don't I promise I don't mean this. in any sort of. self-aggrandizing way or trying to make. any sort of parallel between you know,

your experience and mine. But maybe this. is this can help be illustrative of of. what I'm getting at. You know, in in. December I did an interview with the. actress Kristen Stewart. You know, and. we were we were talking about things. that maybe we don't want to know about. ourselves. And you know, one thing she. asked she put the question back to me. and I I said, you know, one thing. I just mentioned that I can have some. some discomfort in my own body or. disdain for. my physical appearance. [clears throat]. And then you know, I think.

people after that interview came out. would say like, oh, I really liked that. that interview or you know, that was a. good interview. And always in. in my head I would think like, oh, now. this person knows like a deep insecurity. I have because I I said it in public, you know. And it seems to me that you. have have had an extreme version of that. where the people who see you at the bar. know. sort of the darkest thing that has. happened to you. And does does.

did you find that that had any effect. either just on on yourself or how you. related to to other people or strangers? I absolutely relate to what you're. saying and I totally get what you mean. now. Yeah, I I feel like since Baby. Reindeer it's it's been almost akin to. sort of almost feeling like I've been. walking around naked to a certain. degree. And but but I I realize like. every time I I do feel that. self-consciousness, I think back to. like, you know, really. what I shared in Baby Reindeer wasn't.

something to be ashamed of. And every. time I feel like a sense of shame, if we. talk about the abuse stuff, I sort of my. mind can sometimes go there. Are they. are they thinking about that? Are they. thinking about that? I realize and I think back to the young. >> [snorts]. >> boy I was when all that kind of stuff. happened and I I I think uh. that that that's just like a the feeling. of shame that I had at the time, you. know? And that really it's not worth. paying too much attention to when it. comes. But I think the problem with the. the human. brain is it can sort of.

the feeling can hit you before your. ability to rationalize it. And I think. that is such like the human if you have. feelings of shame or feelings of fear or. feelings of guilt or feelings of all. these things, they hit you before you're. like, oh, why do I feel that way? And. then your brain helps you understand it. And I think that's the kind of process. with Baby Reindeer. Sometimes someone. comes up in public, they say something. You know, but then. your brain rationalizes it. You know, Baby Reindeer like I'm I'm I'm still not. ashamed of putting that out there in the. world on the grand scheme of things, you. know? My brain can sometimes be insecure.

in public, bunch of people looking over. what they're thinking, what they're. saying, what jokes are they making? One. of the worst things I think is when you. see a group at a table pointing over and. laughing. You're like, oh, who made what joke, you know? But they. might not be making a joke. They might. they might not have anything to do with. you. But that that's your brain creating. reasons to. to be sort of self-destructive in a way. But but but I I I I I think on the grand. scheme of things, you know, the the the. positive things I get, the messages, the. letters, these heartbreaking kind of. letters and heartbreaking responses, if I have to feel like a little bit more.

self-conscious in public so that people. feel a little more peace in their lives. in grand scheme of things, then I think. it's kind of a a kind of feeling worth. putting up with almost in a way. >> [gasps]. >> And I think like on the whole. it was in a lot of ways it was one of. the best things I did putting all that. stuff out there warts and all, for for. the entire world to see because. I've got kind of nothing to hide anymore. and and that that can feel quite. freeing. You know, it's that old Janis. Joplin song, isn't it? What is freedom just another word? Yeah. Yeah, freedom is just another word.

for nothing left to lose. >> Yeah. And it's kind of um. it's kind of a it's kind of a. a amazing that I've put it all out there. now and. uh. I've sort of expressed my. vulnerabilities, so I in a way I also. feel like people. can't hurt me so much anymore. I do. think that on the whole. it led to to positive growth in me and. and hopefully in in people who watched. it and could could relate to it. You know, I I just want to say that in. in preparation for speaking with you, I.

went back and read, you know, 10 years. worth of of interviews with with Richard. Gadd and and you're. in so many of them you're you're so open. and and soul-bearing and and honest. about, you know, your anxieties and and. sort of your your darker times and and. uh. I I I found my. >> [laughter]. >> I found myself really feeling almost. protective of you, you know? I think. this is a guy who who kind of. um. has some some raw nerves there that that. he's he's willing to expose. And so.

it just makes me. want to know and. and you know, you know, answer this. question however honestly you you want. to answer it, but. how do you feel about yourself these. days? God, yeah. You're good. >> [laughter]. >> I don't know. I don't know. I think better than I did, you know? I think better than I used to,

for sure. Um I think I'm more like. settled in myself and I I I think like I. feel like um. I'm starting to kind of accept and and. and go at a pace which I used to just. think I was just in a constant. constant battle with myself. And that. was because I couldn't accept certain. parts of myself or I I I'd been through. things I couldn't forget or I was just. so self-damning like the way I would. speak to myself was just like appalling, like appalling ways I speak to myself. But I think I've I've gone on a journey.

recently of like self-discovery. I I I. think I I spent a lot of time by myself, you know? I've been I've been single for. a very long time now and I've spent a. lot of time with myself. I never used to. be by myself and it's actually a a good. quality. I recommend any person should. spend an elongated period of time by. themselves in their life because you. really learn how to be with yourself and. I never could do that. I used to almost. like not be able to even just spend one. millisecond just looking inwards. And so even just that. is an improvement, but there's still a. long way to go. I sometimes I think like.

half the battle in life is thinking that. there is some sort of switch where it. all is okay or that that that you can. reach a point in your life where you. have an almost. serene consciousness. You can almost. have a a sort of a click moment in life. where you are at peace with yourself and. at peace with everyone. You can wander. in a room and you won't care what people. think and you can have an interaction. You won't care if you've come across. badly or well or you can forget about. things in your past or you can move. forward with positivity and optimism, but you know, life is challenging and.

life is hard and and and I think a lot. of a lot of it is accepting that. the the struggle will always mutate into. different sort of struggles and that. it's how you manage those choppy waters. That's what what kind of makes a person. um. be well in themselves. Thank you so much. for for taking all the time to speak. with me today and um I'm very much. looking forward to connecting with you. again. I think it's next week. >> Yes. Hopefully I'll be in a more. professional-looking setting.

No, it looks great. It looks great. And. yeah, thanks very much. I really enjoyed. that chat. So I really appreciate that. Thank you. >> [music]. >> On the interview, we talked to our guest. twice. So a few days after my first. conversation with Richard, I wanted to. hear more about his thoughts on personal. trauma, how it's understood or. misunderstood in our society, [music]. and what role it plays in his work. You know, the last time I was. self-conscious about my background, but. I I just want to say it, you know, I. don't know exactly where you are, but.

I'm sorry you've been incarcerated. Yes, yeah, no, absolutely. Um I have been. incarcerated. This is an edit suite. So. so I've been incarcerated here for about. a year working on Half Man. And yeah, it's actually this is probably one of. the more glamorous rooms. There's. actually some with like quite quite raw. piping. They would almost looks like. it's passing through my ears. So we. picked actually one of the more. glamorous backdrops. >> [laughter]. >> But yeah, I don't see daylight very. often. So I I want to just zoom out for. a second. So so both Half Man and Baby.

Reindeer deal in various ways with the. subject of trauma. And you know, there's. this idea that. there's. this kind of almost like a template that. we call the the trauma plot, you know, where it's like a character has been. traumatized and that trauma in their. backstory sort of explains everything. about their actions and then it usually. at the end there's some sort of. cathartic moment. Um And that just is a.

very standard storytelling framework. now. And at the same time. I think. in the broader culture more individuals. sort of identify as uh. having experienced trauma or has been. traumatized people. Like I I have a. friend who literally said to me she. thinks every person is traumatized. And. without giving anything away, I'm like I. just think what you're describing is. life. Like I don't I [laughter] don't. think that's trauma, you know? But who who am I to judge anyone else's.

trauma? But I'm just sort of curious. what you think about the the subject and. how trauma is now sort of understood. so much more. widely. Yeah, I'll stop there. No, I I hear you. know, it's funny when when when you said. what your friend had said, I I sort of. went oh, that's interesting. I I I. agree. Yeah, I I sort of I sort of I. which I find quite interesting. I I. think everyone has a battle of some kind. going on with themselves. If I think. about even the most well-functioning.

people in my life, there's still things. that I observe about them and I'm like. that comes from somewhere and that comes. from something. And. I think we all have blind spots as. people and I think we all have positives. and negative traits and all kinds of. things. And I think we're shaped by our. experiences and way more of the kind of. belief that we we are formed by. um things that have happened to us. I I. think about the shift I went through in. my life, the the really horrific stuff. that's happened to me in my life. And I.

think almost like a brain chemistry of. of before and after. I almost feel like. before that I had a clear pattern of. thinking. Like I. I used to think a little little more. singularly, whereas after I always felt. like my thoughts were discombobulating. and self-scarring. and inwards. And I I guess I became. introverted is probably the more simple. way of putting it. And I think that is. an impact of trauma. And I think. everyone has, whether small or big, things in life has gone through. difficulty which has preoccupied their.

brain in a way which I would say is. trauma. That's how I I guess I see. things. And you correct me if I'm wrong, but this is just on the idea of the. impacts of trauma, but I think I read. somewhere in an interview that you. actually hadn't. had same-sex attraction until after your. assault. Is that right? Yeah, that that. is that is true. And I I I know that. that's a kind of like a controversial. idea, but that that's. I I've never said it's because of that.

That's that's absolutely where I I so. I'd never say that. I say that perhaps. it forced me to look at myself in a way. where I had to re-examine myself. Maybe. I was starting for me to be. repressing myself in such a way that I. never looked before. I'm not sure what it is. All I know is. that I went through a period, I mean. this is radically honest, of almost the. feeling quite. asexual and then. getting. um. very confused, I suppose, and then.

exploring that and realizing that I'm. sort of fine both ways. And even now I'm. still sort of a little bit lost with. with it all. I I I'm not I I do think. that it that that that abuse of that. nature can leave you kind of very sort. of in your body uncertain. But I'm not. saying that it abuse makes you. gay in any way. But but I I certainly. but my truth, which nobody can take from. me, is that I didn't question myself. until something like that had happened, you know? It just seems like a a hard.

one to wrap the head around. Yeah, absolutely. And and that's that's why. like I always like my my shows to be. sort of. inconsistent in a way. At least the. characters like inconsistent. Like. people doing and saying things that. aren't necessarily clear. Like like we. it's so easy. you see coming out things on television, don't you? And it's like all the. character needs to do is say I'm gay and. everything's fine. Whereas in reality, like I think that that there is a slight. mythology. That can really work for.

people. I know but I know people as well. in their life who've said that thinking. that. the smoke would clear. And actually it's. not about saying it or people knowing. It's about saying it to yourself and you. knowing. And that that I think is is is. a. a sort of a fascinating part of. self-acceptance. People are all whole. all sorts of everything and I I think. that's important. I think that's. fascinating and I think. I just think that's like being human, you know? Yeah. You know, you know, something that um.

stuck out for me and I wondered if it. was telling in a way is that earlier. when I had just asked you you know, how. are you doing? >> [laughter]. >> Yeah. you kind of. offhanded and you and you didn't really. pursue it. You you said you're single. now, and you know, you've been single. for a while, and I I just wondered if. just if relationships are hard for you. typically. Mhm. Uh Like, why did that pop Why did that. pop out when I when I asked? Because I. think I think before in my life, I.

always relationship hopped, I think. And. particularly in the the sort of. aftermath of everything that happened, you know, um. I I suddenly think like I I I thought. that that I needed someone there to. comfort. And I think I I I. I I I sort of realized when I sort of. got myself sober and and made that big. change in my life that I realized that. I needed to have a period of time by. myself. Because I'm quite proud of. myself for being single for for that.

long. I I know that feels like like. quite a a man thing to say, but I think. in my life, I always kind of. I I relationship hopped to some degree, you know, and I I think I I always felt. like I couldn't be alone, and it's what. I suppose is this kind of like running. from self, running from being able to. sit with myself. And I suppose I I think. I I I perhaps used to do that. Not that. I didn't love and adore all the people. that I met along the way, and and I've. fallen in and out of love a good few. times in my life, and and uh but I think. I made a decision in my life for once. these to be single, and I think I.

learned really through through. extraordinary self-discipline to kind of. stand on my own two feet. And now I. sometimes worry that I'm too comfortable. being single, and I don't really want to. be anywhere. Uh which isn't necessarily. true, but I I sometimes feel like oh. yeah, I probably should maybe get back. in the dating scene. And but but I think. that is actually testament to how far. I've come in a way. >> And so, just to to. connect things to your work a little. bit, given how much your work is about. sort of processing things and and.

exploring ideas and and feelings that. you've experienced, which tend to be. related to sort of darker things, do you. do you think of art as something that. for you could be a way to, you know, express uh. joy or or optimism or like, could you. imagine doing sort of a. And I I don't mean this in like a a. perfunctory way, but doing like a a. lighthearted. piece of work? I have been thinking about doing a.

lighthearted piece of, but I I suppose I. think like even if I was to. this this so I always have this theory, and whether it's true or not, is that. your your kind of art chooses you in a. way. Like like like Like I think that a. lot of people when they start they they. go uh you know, like. like, for example, I start down comedy, or I love the comedy stylings of this. person, therefore I must be like this. person. I always think comedians go on a. journey where they almost start by via. imitation, at least in terms of style,

and it tips them back to their voice. kind of chooses them, and their voice. steers them. And then a comedian really. really um becomes exemplary when they. really realize what they have to say. And that journey is so hard as an. artist. And I think because my. understanding of life is contradiction. and to a certain degree sort of. internalized pain. Not that that's so. uh goth, but uh but but I but I I I sort. of. >> [snorts]. >> I I feel like that even if I did do a. comedy, that the characters would still. have to have some sort of comedic link.

to some sort of like pain of some kind. But but the idea excites me, I and um. you know, never say never, I suppose. Is there. work that you turn to personally for. like sort of pure pleasure or pure joy. or just just because you think it's. funny? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, yeah, I mean, Laurel and Hardy films I still watch. Yeah, yeah. I absolutely love them. I I. don't know what it is about them. They.

almost make me sort of cry. It's weird. I I sort of I don't know what it is. I. think I watched them when I was a kid. like religiously, and I don't know. whether like my programming of life was. is all sort of built into me when I was. a young age. My mom would sit at the. bottom of the stairs, and she would. listen to me laughing at the music box, and she would end up and she said to me. one of the best times she ever had as a. parent was just sitting listening to me. laughing at the film. And I I don't know when I watch it now, I I sort of I tend to watch stuff so. different to what I do, you know? Like, I watch wrestling a lot, and I watch.

football a lot. I'd never really watch. if something I I know is going to carry. quite a heaviness, I actually don't. really really watch it. >> [laughter]. >> It's strange. And can I ask you to This is something. that I think about for in my own terms. sometimes also, but. on the idea of or like working through. your experiences and working through it. in your art, is there ever any. sense of like, I'd actually like to transcend this.

and have worked through it and be on the. other side and onto other things? Or or is it just more like, no, this. this is who I am, and this is what I do, and it's not about getting through it in. some way? Gosh, yeah. Uh It's a good question. I I suppose I. would say that one would hope that I. would get to that point. How close I am. to that is quite far, of course. I. suppose. my place in life or my understanding of.

life is still full of contradiction and. sort of. internalization to a certain degree. I I. suppose I would hope that one day. I don't know, maybe I I do something. that's so far removed from me that it it. feels like some sort of release, like. it's not even a part of me, or it's not. it's not precious or precious to it. So, I think I think if I was to move away, it would have to I would have to find. some sort of divine. some peace and spirituality within. myself, which feels quite far at the.

moment. But but I'm I am everything's. getting better, so so we'll see. Richard, thank you so much for taking. the time to speak with me, and Thank. you. >> I I really like your work a lot, and I. wish you all the best with it. Thank you. very much. Thank you. It's been lovely. chatting. Thanks for the great questions. and everything like that. Really. appreciate that. >> [music]. >> I'm Lulu Garcia-Navarro. And I'm David. Marchese. And we're the hosts of The. Interview, an audio and video podcast.

from The New York Times. >> Every week, we interview fascinating and. influential people from all walks of. life. Subscribe to our YouTube channel, so [music] you'll never miss an episode.