Bob Odenkirk Would Like to Remind You That Life Is a Meaningless Farce | The Interview

I really uh went down on the set of. Better Call Saul. I don't have any. memories till a week later. Bob Odenkirk has had an improbable. career. >> I'll do anything with you that you want. that is legally allowed. Listen to what. this guy has to say. >> Somebody's going to prison. [music]. It's just a matter of who. >> Are you talking to my client without his. lawyer present? >> And you are Saul Goodman. After decades. as a cult hero in the comedy world, culminating in his 9090s HBO series Mr.

Show with Bob and David. >> Damn it. WHERE DID YOU GET THOSE. CHOCOLATES? >> HOW COULD YOU hide it? >> Odenkirk made a hard turn to dramatic. acting and surprise found mainstream. success. [music]. >> I'm not super handsome, young, muscled. up, any of that. >> We talked about his latest career swerve. into, of all things, becoming an action. hero, like in his new movie, Normal. So, what do you think of our little town?

>> It's um charming. >> and what he learned from a real. near-death experience on the set of. Better Call Saul. People want to hear. that you saw a white light, then they. would love to hear that you watched your. whole life pass before you on a film. reel. Here's my conversation with Bob. Odenkirk. >> Are we good to go? >> We're good to go. >> This is a big production. As I said to. you when we were just sitting down, it. just it just feels very um important in. a way that uh scares the [ __ ] out of me.

But onwards. [laughter]. >> All right. I don't want you to be. scared. There's nothing to be scared of. It's all in your head. There's nothing. bad that's going to happen. >> Oh, there's a lot in my head. Yeah. All. the bad stuff. >> But thank you again for being here. And. um just before I was told that we got. the green light to start, you were. telling me about a novel you just read. Yeah. >> And how it relates to or how it affected. your thinking maybe about something. important that happened to you. So.

>> yeah. So. >> pick up where you left off. Yeah. >> Uh almost four years ago, I had this. heart incident. Uh, one of the. tributaries to my widowmaker artery was. shut down completely by a plaque um, plaque buildup and um, I was really uh, out and I went to the hospital. I got. two stances. I I really uh, went down on. the set of Better Call Saul and it was. really scary especially for everyone. around me, not for me because I don't. have any memory of it. But I've talked.

about it many times and people have. asked me many times how did that affect. you? And I think first people want to. hear that you saw a white light. Then. they would love to hear that you watched. your whole life pass before you on a. film reel. And [laughter]. and I kind of wish that happened to me. That would have been cool. But that. didn't happen to me. [snorts] It was a. blank for me for a week. I I came to. essentially a week later. I came to the. next day, but I don't have any memories. till a week later. So I've tried to. answer this question to people. What how.

did it impact you? and I've had a hard. time doing it because I've always felt I. don't do justice to the uh feeling of. it, the experience of it. Okay. So then. I'm reading this new this book that. novel that's called on the calculation. of volume and I'm reading this book and. the character in this book is having a. very unique experience of time and she's. relating her experience of reliving the. same day over and over and I come to.

these passages and I'm like that's how I. felt. That's exactly how I felt for. weeks after having this heart attack. And I I I could there's like a couple. passages. um in here that I marked because I I'm. like I've never been able to express. this to people. >> Yeah. Can you read one? >> Yeah. I I'll I'll read you a section to. show you what I mean. Um she says uh.

that in this unfathomable vastness these. infantisible elements are still able to. hold themselves together. She's talking. about the world around us and and. ourselves that we manage to stay afloat. that we exist at all. That each of us. has come into being as only one of. untold possibilities. She goes on like. that and I mark that whole passage but. then later and I'll just read this one. section. I had a day to go and I went.

with it. There was no plan. There was an. outline, one which I could follow, floating gently. There was no goal, no. prey to be caught. I was not a circling. raptor, a vulture, a shark, a big cat. poised to spring. I was not on my guard. This was something else. I was on a. journey on my way home. I thought I was. traveling on an open ticket with no. itinerary. I journeyed through the. minutia of the streets in a universe. replete with minor incidents, a host of.

objects and occurrences and sensations. all crowded together in my memory. Well, there's a few more passages, but. gosh, to to hit upon that and think this. that's what I should tell people. [laughter]. if I could memorize it, which maybe I. can. I just couldn't believe how much. these couple passages. expressed. this thing that this this way of living.

that had something to do with. experiencing time. Obviously, this term. being present, but it it took no effort. and how amazing it was. It was really. a beautiful way to live in the world. And I knew it would go away, too. this. is going to go away a little at a time. as I go forward and I have to try to. remember it. I have to try to live this. way. I just. the degree of uh.

freshness to the world around me and the. amazement of that and the beauty of it. was uh something I. I got to be in. And uh so I thought that. might come up that question and since I. just happened upon this these passages I. I wanted to share them. So yeah it was. going to come up [laughter]. but something else I was interested in. about that experience is related to what. you just described the.

>> the awareness that that sort of feeling. of being present was going to fade. >> Yeah. >> How effectively can you get that back? I. was going to finish your sentence. Without ketamine, [laughter]. uh, or some mindaltering drug. Um, I. think you can. I really do. Honestly, just reading those passages made me go, "Oh, right, right, right, right, right. That's what's going on here. That's how. you can I can be how I can be in the.

moment and live in the world. I I've ex. it's it's still. close enough to my sense of uh. I can get there. Uh I think I should. challenge myself to do it u more. Um but. uh even the burden of saying I should. challenge myself immediately starts to. ruin it [laughter]. with guilt and responsibility and uh you.

know as she says in the book no um I'm. not a raptor. I'm not a I'm not ready to. spring. I'm not a jungle cat ready to. spring. I'm not. We live in a world that is about. achievement. You don't want to live without purpose, but all we're about is. getting and uh. you know, it seems to me the only way to.

feel of value is um becoming a. millionaire. [laughter]. So, you want to be a millionaire. What's. that? Yeah. >> Who wants to be a millionaire? >> Who wants to be a millionaire? Well, I. guess everybody. But. who who wants to be happy? How about. that for a TV show? [laughter]. >> Well, in a weird way, it's possible that. the path to being a millionaire is. clearer than the path to being.

>> happy. It surely is. It surely is. Yeah. And of course, most people think being a. millionaire is what makes you happy. But. just just go talk to a millionaire. [laughter]. >> Well, you're a millionaire, I would. guess. >> Sure. >> Did that make you happier? >> There's no question that the security. that you feel from not being afraid of a. health issue or um what housing whatever. you know is a great comfort and helps.

you to be more uh at peace with life. There's no question it should help you. It It's just not as much help as you. think it should be. I mean, yes, you can. eat steak every night, I guess, but then. you get sick of steak. You know, there. there was a clip of it of you from an. interview that I saw earlier this year. that's been kicking around my head since. I saw it. and it's uh you were being.

interviewed by Mike Burbiglia. >> and he asks you if there's anyone you're. jealous of [clears throat]. >> or something like that. And the way you. answer the question was by saying you're. jealous of anyone who has young kids at. home because when you had young kids at. home, you had no questions about what. your purpose was. You know, it's like. your job was to. >> Yeah. >> take care of the kids and do dad stuff. Um. >> Yeah. Is is it the case that you.

understood that in the moment? >> I did. >> Or you only understood that in. retrospect? >> No. No, I understood it in the moment. I. absolutely knew this was the best time. I'll I'll ever have in my life. No. question. I uh also I've got to add it's. not just a sense of uh. feeling valued and feeling purposeful. Um it's entertainment. I mean, there's. nothing more entertaining than a a.

little kid. So, I knew like. that this could be the best uh thing you. could do. [laughter]. And I still think that way. I wish, you. know, it's funny. I left that interview. with Mike Burbiglia and uh I remember. thinking u oh I I I didn't think about. that specific quote but I did talk think. about that section of the interview and. I thought I think they'll cut that out. because isn't that kind of depressing. that this guy who has had so much.

achievement in his career that really. should be the most rewarding thing and. is. uh is missing. a chapter of his life that is gone now. that cannot come back. I mean you can be. a grandparent and sure that's great but. uh he's obviously saying the best thing. the best chapter of my life is behind me. and I know that that's kind of sad to. say and I always feel bad when I see.

people who are doing well well enough to. be interviewed and talked to and they. seem kind of uh depressed. I'm always. like, "Oh, come on. Can't can't you be. happy?" You know, but um what can I say? I was just being honest. That's how I. feel. I feel like. that's uh that that's definitely the. best to There's nothing I can do. I. can't sit down to try to write a great. movie or.

learn a wonderful script or direct. something or I don't there's nothing. Climb a mountain. There's not a freaking. thing I can do that is gonna match the. uh value that I felt um for life. uh of being a parent uh of kids between. zero and you know uh usually around 14. 15 they're like they're done [laughter]. with you.

I think it would have been more. depressing if you said the the thing. that brought you the most value and. purpose in your life was being in Better. Call Saul. Imagine your imagine your. kids hearing that answer. >> You know, it's funny. I have so many. people uh obviously there's this is the. biggest thing I did was Better Call Saul. so far. And I can't imagine doing. anything bigger than that either. But uh. I just forget that I was in this show. completely. I mean I lived so much of my.

life before that and I lived it and I. achieved things that I cared about a. great deal almost to a strange extent. When I was writing my memoir, I wrote so. much about sketch comedy and I called it. comedy comedy comedy drama because I was. worried that people would go, "Oh, this. is the Better Call Saul guy. I'm going. to read about his journey to being on. that show." And it's like, "No, I'm. going to talk about, you know, 45 50. years of caring about and writing sketch.

comedy. I'm barely going to talk about. the thing that you know me from because. that was such a small part of my life. And uh and and still when I was writing. the book, I was thinking. there's something wrong with this guy. It's an interesting thing to you should. write anybody should write their memoir. when they get around 50. And you may see. what I saw. We're like this guy's like a. and we all are, but this guy's like a. broken toy. He's got something wrong.

with him and he keeps going in this one. direction. Like I'm writing about me and. I'm like, will you give it up already? You know, you've already been on. Saturday Night Live as a writer. Give it. up. Stop. Even after Mr. Show, I'm I'm. still doing, you know, trying to help. Tim and Eric are. being a part of all this sketch type. comedy and I just think, well, there's. nothing to say, but there's something. wrong with me, and I don't know what it.

is. And it makes me go in this one. direction, you know, the idea that you. were sort of like a a broken toy that. kept pursuing sketch comedy. Yeah. Um. I'm glad you did because I've really uh. gotten a lot out of your comedy over the. years and to sort of to such an extent. that still when I watch a movie like. Normal or the Nobody films, uh I'll have. moments where I think it's weird that.

Bob Odenkirk is like blowing people away. in these movies. [laughter]. >> It's very weird. What sort of cultural. itch do you think these kinds of action. movies that are about sort of like a an. unassuming middle-aged man. >> Yeah. >> whose sort of inner hero comes out? Um. what what itch are they scratching? Why. are they proving to be so successful. right now?

>> Um well, I thought about this a lot. I'm not sure I I'll do my best. It's. It's wish fulfillment. It's wish for, let's say, first of all, an evil that is so clear and obvious. that it's worthy of our anger. Um, which these movies do, especially. the Nobody movies. There's a point in. both movies where. you trip over into uh James Bond land.

and a real guy who's been established. and and who has tensions and. sensitivities and struggles that feel. very real and that's partly because of. uh it's me playing them and I'm not um. magically delicious. [laughter]. I'm not super handsome, young, muscled. up, any any of that. You can relate to.

all these things. They're very grounded. at moments. And then there comes this. point in the movie where that guy, you. are living in a movie and you can do. things that you can only do in a movie. The same thing happens in normal. True. But a it's normal is a little. elevated from the get-go. I would say. it's a little like inside of a snow. globe world right from the start. Uh.

whereas the nobody films make make a. real attempt to to be living in the in. the world, you know. And so I think I. think we have these we live we go. through life. There are frustrations. everywhere. There are big ones and small ones. There. are ones that have to do with our inner. lives that we simply can't sort out. easily. And you can't act on those. frustrations in a physical way. You. can't do that. We can't live in that.

world. We have to be decent to each. other. Um, in a movie, you can do. [laughter] it. So, you did Breaking Bad. and Better Call Saul. And there was sort. of a an indisputable. popular success to to that stretch of. work. And prior to that, when people. would talk about Bob Odenkirk, it was. often attached to a term like, you know, cult success or cult favorite, which of.

course is a backhanded compliment for. like not really successful at all. Um, but prior to sort of this big career. like double bump you had sort of. relatively late, did you have moments. where you thought like I don't know if. I'm going to get the success I want or I. don't know if the career is really. working? I did have uh doubts and. concerns, but they weren't about that. I.

did I didn't My bigger problem was once. I was finished with Mr. show, which was. so much of what I wanted to try to. achieve in sketch comedy. Um, like what. now? Um, I got a chance to do it. I got. a chance to do it really well. I got. total freedom to do it. Incredible. support. David Cross and I couldn't be. better partners for what we did. Um, now what? Now what do you want to do. that's going to drive you through the.

next 20 years of a career? And I was. lost because I had already achieved. um in sketch comedy and with the cult. success that I had, I had achieved. everything that I was aiming at. That's. what I was aiming for. >> Wait, but what gives your life purpose. now? Uh uh. trying to find uh. the next thing um.

to do that will give it purpose. trying to find the next thing uh that. will feel uh rewarding and impactful and. of value. But you have had the. opportunity to work with like. people that I would consider comedic. geniuses like people like Janine Goff or. Chris Elliot. >> who had success but kind of never went. gang busters. And then you've also. worked with people like uh Ben Stiller,

Adam Sandler, Jack Black who got as big. as someone in comedy could reasonably. expect to get. Do you have any. understanding of like why that person. and not that person? Like what is there. something sort of innate that leads to. massive success? I think that um some of the people I've. known who have great talent and and and.

haven't achieved what you might call a. massive success that might be on the. level of their talent. My experience of. those people is that they don't really. want it. >> Yeah. >> There comes a level, a point in their. journey where they see this thing and. they go, "Oh, yeah. I don't want that. much pressure. I don't want that many. people looking at me. I want this many. people. I want, you know, 15 million. people, not 800 million people." Like, I.

do think there's like everybody has a. sense of this threshold. Look, when when. my kids were about eight and 10 years. old, we were on a vacation and I. remember we were in a um a supermarket. and we were getting lunch and somebody. came over to talk to me because they. knew me from Mr. show and uh this was. before Breaking Bad and I thought this. is the perfect level of success because. I can go out in the world and be myself.

and if there's a person in the room who. knows who I am, I can tell you who they. are. They will have a tattoo from one of. my shows [laughter]. [gasps] that they will love me a lot and. then everyone else in the room will not. know me at all and I can just be myself. Um, and then with Breaking Bad, then you. get into a level of. now I'm in an elevator at the mall and. everyone in this elevator. knows who I am. But the difference. between how they know me.

is wildly varied. You know, one of those. people knows how I look at the world. The person who's watched Mr. Show, they. know how I see the world. The person who. knows Better Call Saul, that that's just. not. not even close. they don't know me. They. they know this character I played that. is not me at all. And uh and and yet I. appreciate that they like that work and. that they know me and I I'm thankful and.

yeah. So. uh I think when you ask about that. the question part of the question is is. there a choice? Do you get to see this. thing coming your way? And do you get to choose I'm going to. become I'm going to [clears throat] go. ahead and be more famous and then I'm. going to live in a world where there's a. little bit of discordancy between who I. am and how I'm known. I get I get why.

people go, "No, thank you. I'm going to. stay in my littleer world where when you. know me, I know how you know me and I. and that means something to me.". uh that I'm okay with. I I I don't know. if this whole chapter of our interview. is um weird. [laughter]. I think weird is good. I think weird is. good, but something I've seen you uh. mention a few times is this idea that. sketch comedy, you know, tends to be.

like a younger person's game a little. bit. Uh, do you find that at you're what. 63 now? Yeah. Is your relation to sketch. sketch comedy different than it used to. be? >> Well, it is simply because I've spent. the last 15 years doing drama and action. and I've and I've had to think a lot. about those things. So, for instance, my. friend David Cross and I are working on. a project right now and it's a play. I. did Glen Gary Glenn Ross. Yeah. And.

while I was doing that play, I was. thinking a lot about the mechanics of a. play because that play is perfect. That. play is a machine. It's a machine of. drama. It's a machine of laughter. It's. unbelievable. It's tight as can be. And so just being. a part of it, thinking [snorts] about it, I started to. see, you know, some of the, you could. say the mechanics of it and think about.

how great they were and how maybe I. could try to steal some of those, [laughter]. you know, and make something too in that. world that might have some value and. might [clears throat] work. Um, it's. similar to when I was at Saturday Night. Live for four years and I didn't help. all that much. I pitched some jokes that. Robert Smiggle would use. Occasionally I. had a sketch that would get on, but. basically I sat around listening to El. Franken and Jim Downey and Robert. Smiggle and Conan O'Brien and Jack Handy.

and Bonnie and Terry Turner and I. watched these people write great. sketches and my brain went, "Oh, I see. what they did. Oh, I see what you did.". and it kind of deconstructed it and then. I used it to make Mr. Show. So David and. I are writing a play and we'll see if we. get there. But you know our our great. desire to make it is make it it's kind. of got sketch comedy in it. But it's not. a sketch. It's it's something more. hopefully. And but we want to we want to.

make it a sketch because it's too fun. and sketches are over in five minutes. and they're done and you get to move on. to the next idea. Um. so I still I I I still have an instinct. for it, but I I now I do feel what I've. said is true that doing sketch comedy. when you get older is a little strange. It's a little. >> like it's like a young person's energy. is right for it. it fits. And when you.

get older, it's like what are you doing? What are you doing being so silly? And. what are you doing being so. it becomes um I don't it loses. something. >> So what's comedy that speaks to you now. where you are in your life? >> Oh boy. Um. the honestly the comedy that speaks to. me most right now is a thing called On. Cinema. Um it's a pretend um. movie review show that is on uh the.

internet um by my friend Tim Haidker. and it's again you know for me. sketch comedy and this is kind of a. sketch comic thing but it's drawn out. and slowed down and I think sketch. comedy I'm sorry to say It. is the most profound. expression of.

human uh existence. there is. really I [snorts] don't think any Kubric. movie or Freudian analysis or. Shakespeare. or Shakespeare. says as much about. how humans operate and what is the. ultimate. uh problem with us [laughter]. as a species.

than sketch comedy. And I wish it was. not true. I wish the drama, grand drama, I wish that we were worthy of being. taken apart and and and are and and. observed in in subtle and complex ways. But I don't think so. I think that. ultimately. there is nothing more profound uh about.

people than you can say in a sketch. They're [ __ ] idiots. People are sadly. limited. so limited that you can. you can define them and you can share uh. the everything that's important about. them in four minutes. [laughter]. Wait, maybe this is related. Maybe this. is related. Um right near the end of.

your memoir, you write that uh you know. show business is not curing cancer and. that it's a it's a distraction. >> Yeah. And and the way you put it is. which is inarguably key to life on. Earth. Yeah. >> Because life on Earth is so bleak and. painful. >> Yeah. >> And the only and best response to that. is to look away. >> Yeah. Um you want me to repudiate that. statement? I wondered if you were being.

sarcastic [laughter] when you wrote that. because it struck me as bleak. >> Pretty bleak. >> Too sad. >> [sighs]. >> I don't know what to say, man. Pretty much do think that's true. But I. do think that. obviously I think there's joy and reward. in. uh being alive and and and and in uh in.

the ways in which we look away in. whatever way in which you find to. transform. that that um. horror. The horror the horror. In whatever way you find to transform. that. into something good, entertaining, beautiful,

uh comforting to another person, helpful. That is that's beautiful. And that's uh. the joy of of life is turning. [ __ ] into gold. >> [laughter]. >> comedy gold. Well, whatever gold you can. make it into, whatever kind of alchemy. you can do. >> is. I guess to me that's that's the good.

part. Now, little kids and if we want to. go back to where you started. >> Yes, that's what I was going to do. Yeah. >> They do that by kids do that by being. alive by by watching them be alive. you. I think you feel that that. magic that when you come to fully grasp. life um and [clears throat] uh it can be. taken away from you uh bit by bit until.

it's all gone but you can reconnect with. it and uh. yeah I I don't know I mean one of the. challenges of this interview was I have. no unified field theory of myself. Um I'm a bit of um as you can see from. my career, I kind of go in a lot of. directions and I don't have a very um.

solid justification for uh the uh. the um the whole thing. I can't. characterize the whole thing and my and. the only thing I I could say is there's. a risk that there's a great risk that I. am willing to take I think because I. don't think much of myself. Um in other [clears throat] words, let's. say I made a huge ass of myself in. trying to do action films. Well, so.

what? So what? I mean, I can still do comedy and claw. my way back. I guess. >> we should end on that note. [laughter]. >> Yeah. But I I hope I didn't make an ass. of myself. I I think that. >> the bigger question for me is. >> what do I do now? Because um. well, I guess I have I just do what I've. always done. look for the next thing uh.

that that seems. uh curious, worthwhile, surprising. I'll I'll find a hard time beating uh. action movies. I can tell you that I. will have a hard time finding anything I. can pursue that is as far away from. where I started as as that genre of. film. erotic art house, I guess. [laughter].

Does that still exist? I don't know. I. don't think that exists anymore. [music]. On the interview, we talked to our guest. twice. So, two weeks later, I caught up. with Bob Odenkirk again. We got into. what he calls Manosphere comedy, and he. apologized for, in his words, being a. bummer. >> Bob, thank you for talking to me again. I appreciate Happy to do it, David. Thanks for the interest. I appreciate. it. >> Yeah. Yeah. Um, something I I was was.

curious about is, you know, we we talked. a a little about um sort of the the. beginnings of of your career in the '9s. with kind of what people called the. alternative comedy scene. And and back. then, >> I think it was pretty clear to people. what alt comedy was alternative to. Yeah, it was it was alternative to a. kind of like slick. >> showbizzy style of comedy that was uh.

sort of the dominant form of comedy at. the time. And I wonder do you think. there as far as you can tell I is there. any sort of alternative comedy now? Like. what what is the comedy that that. someone would be rebelling against right. now? >> Um. the well this is going to sound weird. Uh, but probably what do they call it? The bro the like manosphere stuff. >> Manosphere comedy was was cuz I think.

we're starting to put it in the past. already, which is. great, [laughter]. but I think the manosphere comedy was. the reactionary comedy movement of the. last five years. And um, I don't think. it has a lot of depth to it. So, it's. kind of running past pretty quickly. It's it's uh dissipating. Um but, uh it. was a powerful movement, it seems to me,

of the last 5 years. Uh what's next, I. don't know. But you're not wrong. the. what I call the alternative comedy scene. and what I came up in after working at. Saturday Night Live and you know in this. world of Janine GOP, Margaret Cho, Kathy. Griffin, Pat Oswald, Greg Barren, uh David Cross, uh you know um and then that became and. then Mark Maron and that kind of.

infiltrated comedy slowly over about. five years and and then it it kept. proliferating. and then it became podcasts, but then it. just became all of comedy and I think. the format of podcast um really lent. itself to a lot of what we were doing. which was more uh impromptu uh genuine. personal uh sharing and uh and then now. it's everywhere. Why do you not find the.

what we're going to call manosphere. comedy to be particularly interesting or. funny? >> Oh, well, um, it's definitely about. lowhanging fruit big time. It's like. literally on the ground. It's fruit. that's on the ground rotting. Pick that [ __ ] up and eat it. Throw. [clears throat] it at people. I I don't. have a lot of opinions on those guys. It's more of a um. it's a movement that I I'm happy to see.

transforming into something else and. disappearing or dissipating, you could. say. >> Why do you think it's dissipating? That's that's not necessarily the sense. I get. Yeah. >> Cuz there's a It's cuz it's a dead end. It's just going to be boring after a. while. It's like what? Let's Let's use. the stage to be as crude as we can be. and as clumsy and offish as we can be. And that's kind of funny always. That's. funny to hear that voice. I think it's. funny to hear that voice, but not from.

everybody. I think anything you do on a. stage is a performance. That sounds. obvious, but in other words, if you want. to say something honest, then you should get off a comedy stage. If you know a lot of com comedians get. credited for being honest or uh or they. get lambbasted for the things they say. in their act and and are asked to. explain that or justify it or pillaried.

for it. And the bottom line to me is if. you're on that comedy stage that's a. show. You are not you. You are. pretending to be a person named you. Everything you say is of of construct. Everything. If you don't like that and. you want to tell an audience something. genuine, earnest and honest, then get off that. stage cuz that stage is only. a show. It is not real and it is not.

genuine and it is not direct no matter. how much you act like it is. And so I. just I just think we h we have to I I. wish everyone saw it that way. Then if. you if you know that if you know that. when you watch anyone do a play or um. any kind of performance then you then. you can safely watch almost anything and.

talk about it afterwards and let it um. whatever that does for you. Whether it's. uh cathartic and lets that voice out of. your head or whether you can point to. that voice now and argue about it. whatever that is, it can offer it can. have a lot of benefits. But the problem. we got into there was. comedians uh and maybe the alt comedy. scene led us to it with a degree of, you. know, self-revelation that was being.

done. A sense that whatever said on that. stage is incredibly genuine and uh a. direct uh look thing is the internet has. hurt us. I'm going to ramble here for a. second. Yeah, keep keep going. One of. the reasons the internet has hurt is you. can tape somebody at 2 a.m. in a comedy. club and put them on TV and you're. watching them at 10:00 a.m. at your. breakfast table. >> Yeah, >> that's not right. Cuz that thing was. said at 2 a.m. in the, you know, in New.

York with a bunch of drunk, rowdy people. after you talked for 45 minutes already. So, whatever. Did I help you clarify anything? >> But I think the um the [snorts]. distinction you're making uh about sort. of if if a comedian or performer is. saying something in in sort of a. performance context that should change. how we uh receive the thing they're. saying. Presumably that applies to uh.

podcasts also, right? So like a a Joe. Rogan or or an Andrew Schultz. But but. see I'm I'm not sure it applies to that. but why not like those are those are. performance podcast at some point you. have to give people a place to speak. honestly and directly like you and I are. doing right here you know this is not uh. me doing a character and. I I don't I I think it I don't know I I.

I don't know how to delineate the line, but there has to be a line. This is. something I feel strongly about and um. I'm never going to get everyone to. agree. [laughter]. >> Yeah. Know, it's I I'm even trying to. understand exactly like how those. distinctions make a difference. like you. know I I don't know what say I'm just. going to pick a comedian who I think uh. thinks of of what he does as expressing. honesty and truth is you know if you.

talk to someone like a if you were to. ask someone like a Dave Chappelle are. are you talking honestly to your. audience I think he would say well yeah. that that's what I do and that's what. comedians do not you don't think he. would. >> I don't no I think he'd say I'm. performing. >> I really do I mean we should ask him but. >> you know my friend Dave David Cross gets. on stage and he says crazy stuff. and he doesn't believe everything he. says. He just knows it's a point of view.

that is funny to express and that to. some extent people need to hear or be. surprised by to get some perspective on. their own point of view. And uh yeah, so. I I just I I I'm just thinking everybody. has to understand what that line is. it. got blurred [snorts]. uh in a way that I think was very. damaging to what we can do as artists.

We we need to be able to do and say. crazy [ __ ] Well, but it's also. interesting because I I think you're. saying that sort of the flip side or. sort of one of the negative. repercussions of the legacy of the. alternative comedy was that its emphasis. on authenticity or seeming authenticity. led people to almost give too much. credence to what comedians were saying. in a way that led to this line blurring.

and and led to some uh. >> sort of like sensoriousness in a way. It's damaging to comedy. That's. interesting. [snorts]. >> But and I'm also saying that it goes two. ways. It's the audience has to chill out. and and watch it as a performance, but. the performer, if they really have. something to say, should not be doing it. there or should not. It's not that they. shouldn't do it there. It's that if they. really want people to understand it. directly, they should get off that. comedy stage and and say it somewhere.

else where it's me talking genuinely me. and not for laughs, not for the sake of. laughs, you know. Can I I there's. there's sort of like a holistic. observation uh I want to make about the. conversation so far. And it's one that. kind of before uh the camera started uh. rolling or before we hit record, you. yourself actually kind of alluded to. I. think you said, you know, sorry if I was. being negative or something in. [clears throat] earlier, but um you. know, if I sort of thinking back to what.

we talked about previously, you know, you talked about how uh you know, sort. of the the best times uh in your life. were when your kids were little. >> Yeah. >> You know, those times are over. The the. uh you know, the the the art form you. love the most, sketch comedy, that's a. young man's game. That's over. uh um you. know the the uh I I asked you sort of. like a life philosophy question and you. you sort of like ah you know it's all.

kind of a farce uh [laughter]. and now you know it's I know maybe. middle age is a is a time of sort of uh. a certain degree of like resignation or. or uh acceptance. Yeah. But are is there. anything that you're you know that that. in in your life or work now that you. think like uniquely well this this is. great or or or uh you know I'm looking. forward to this thing that might come or. is it kind of just like a managed. decline. Uh [laughter].

[gasps]. god I'm sorry to be a bummer. I I feel. like it's real. >> Yeah. Um um h I have a I have a new. avenue opened up in front of me with a. dramatic acting. Um, this was something. that I moved into slowly, starting. [snorts] with uh barely doing some of it. in Breaking Bad and then numerous other.

projects and then Better Call Saul was. like this big, you know, jump off a. cliff and then. >> [clears throat]. >> um you could argue that action film. making is um conceptualizing that. dramatic intensity. uh sometimes to a pretty humorous this. extent like but I and then Glen Gary. Glenn Ross was a really exciting uh. discovery and challenge and I feel like. I've found a new avenue here to work in.

that I'm excited by that is something. that um. at least attempts to uh address life in. a more sensitive and way with some. deeper resonance than sketch comedy can. do. But yeah, I if if you want to hear. something positive, here's my positive. If we got to keep. trying. in the face of what I consider the.

limitations of being a person, which are. strict and and [snorts]. seem immutable and uh. there's no way around. Uh so what? We. got to keep trying. Um, I don't know. what the future is if we don't hope to. try to be uh better than we are right. now. And. so, yeah. So, I I do have um I do have.

some [laughter]. I do have some wind beneath my wings. >> All right. Good. Good. A little bit. Just a draft. [laughter]. There's a breeze beneath my wings. >> [laughter]. >> Um, you know, but you you just uh uh. alluded to uh with Glen Gary, Glenn. Ross, and maybe with some other work uh. doing doing stuff that has some more uh. resonance than the silly stuff. But, you. know, when we spoke before, you said you.

you thought that like sketch comedy was. the most the the the best v vessel for. >> I know, David, and I and and I've I've. thought about what I've said a lot and I. think it's true. >> And I'm sorry to say that. I still think. it's true. >> But within that, we got to keep trying. I I'm not giving up. Is all I'm saying. is I'm not giving up. But I'm afraid to. say. uh you know look.

my hope lies in um some kind of uh. I'm. evolutionary growth for the human. creature. Uh but without that or until. that happens and I don't know how that. happens, we all have to um. take some. we we all need more vaccines [laughter]. to change our DNA. Well, who thinks.

that's a bad thing? Have you met a human. being? Whatever it takes to change our. DNA or RNA or whatever, any NA, let's. start changing it cuz it doesn't work. the way it is. [laughter]. That's a good thing. Everybody get more vaccines. If that's. what they do, if they change our DNA or. our RNA or however those two are. associated, let's take lots of them and.

make this creature a better creature. because uh where we're at, I I do stand. by what I said. I think a comedy in the. end, all the philosophy in the world, all the. theories in the world, all the hope in. the world, all the grand uh pronounce, >> the greatest poets to ever live, >> all the great poetry, existential, you know, thinking, >> Franklin's voice. >> Yeah. all of Abraham Lincoln's speeches.

and. uh it all boils down to uh uh uh. Shakespeare's uh. uh sound and fury, you know, uh. signifying nothing. >> And you might as well laugh at it. I. mean, I do think in the end that's what. we're going to have to do until until we. change. Wait, Bob, if if what you're. saying is true and sketch comedy is best. able to encapsulate the human condition. Yeah. What is what is the most profound.

sketch you've ever seen? >> Talk show at sea. It's a it's a Jerry. Springer show. We did it on Mr. Show. [snorts] and they're on a lifeboat and. they're dying. They have no food or. water and they're still arguing about. who is in love with [clears throat] who. and who got who pregnant and um. that's it. That that to me that that.

sketch. that's humanity. You're dying. You are. going to die. You we have no fresh. water. We have no food. And they're uh. going he cheated with her. >> [laughter]. >> I love him and [snorts]. it's really really awesome and it it to. me I I don't know what else to say. That's that's the world that I see. You. know, I really enjoyed speaking with you. and I I appreciate you taking all the. time and and I hope that the uh sort of.

pitiful little fart-like draft beneath. your wings is able to carry you far into. the future. >> It will. Don't forget I also have, you. know, [music] my kids are so wonderful. and so, you know, there's lots to look. forward [music] to. I I uh Yeah, there's. lots to look forward to. >> I'm Lula [music] Garcia Navaro. >> and I'm David Maresy. >> and we're the hosts of the interview, an. audio and video podcast from the New.

York Times. >> Every week we interview fascinating and. influential people from all walks of. life. Subscribe to our YouTube channel. so you'll never miss an episode.