A Yale Cognitive Scientist on Americans’ Pursuit of Happiness | The Interview

It's great to have, you know, great sex. and hot fudge sundaes, but ultimately, true happiness probably comes from what. we do with others and building a broader. good life. >> [music]. >> I'm Lulu Garcia-Navarro, and today I'm. interviewing Dr. Laurie Santos. [music]. Dr. Santos is a scientist who teaches. the most popular class in Yale's. history, a class on happiness. >> It's funny when we think about. happiness, because I think we do kind of. think of it as a destination, but we. don't think of that with [music] other. good things in life.

>> Through her podcast, The Happiness Lab, and her free online course called The. [music] Science of Well-Being, Santos'. reach has extended well beyond the Yale. classroom, offering research-backed tips. and [music] conversations for how to. feel happier. >> I think we really just definitionally. think of happiness [music]. as about me, me, me. And so much of the. science and so much of this classic. wisdom tells us, >> [music]. >> "No, it's not.". >> But what exactly is happiness? Here's my. conversation with Dr. Laurie [music]. Santos.

Thank you so much for being here. I'm so. glad you could join me. >> Thanks so much for having me on the. show. I'm such a big fan, so this is. such a treat. >> I'm going to start in a bit of a strange. place, um, because, like so many people. in the world, I was really obsessed with the story of. Punch the Monkey. >> Mhm. >> And that little monkey in Japan whose. mother was sort of rejected him, and he. had no one to socialize with, so he. adopted that IKEA monkey toy. >> Yes. >> And I have a theory about Punch that. connects to happiness, and I wanted to.

put it to you, because apart from being. a happiness expert, you also study. animal cognition, and you started your. work with monkeys. >> Literally everyone that I know sent me. information about Punch. I was like. getting in real time what was happening. with Punch. >> I was really thinking about why so many. people around the world connected with. Punch's inability to form relationships. And you've long said that the bonds with. other people are one of the building. blocks of happiness. It's one of the. most important things that we can do.

But especially here in the US, those. bonds were fraying and I think we just. saw some of ourselves in Punch. Do you. think I may be right? >> Yeah, I think so. I mean, I think, you. know, it was it was fascinating to see. just how much emotion people showed. about Punch, which I think is funny. because sometimes we see news stories. about the pain of other actual humans. and we don't show that much compassion, right? But I think talking about the. loneliness crisis through a monkey, like. through this poor little monkey that. didn't do anything, it wasn't really his. fault. I think that really allowed us a.

way to talk about the loneliness crisis. and to feel it and admit it in ourselves. in a way that wasn't as shameful. >> You know, I spent a lot of time in. advance of this conversation really. thinking about the nature of happiness. And I want to start by digging into just. what happiness is. Uh and maybe do some basic defining of. terms cuz I went down a few rabbit. holes. >> You can. It's very easy to do with this. topic. >> It is. >> Yeah. >> And so, um as I discovered lots of. philosophers have tackled the question.

of happiness going back to ancient. Greece. And there's two main types of happiness. according to ancient Greek philosophers. as far as I could tell. And one is uh. hedonic and the other one is eudaimonic. Can you explain what that is, what the. difference is, what they were sort of. looking at back then? >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, hedonic happiness. I think is what a lot of lay people mean. when they mean happiness. That's just. like a sense of good feeling, right? That's your personal pleasure. That's. like the difference between eating a hot. fudge sundae or stubbing your toe,

right? Like there's some there's. something that it feels like to feel. like things are good. And often when. we're thinking of hedonic pleasure, we're thinking of the real basic stuff. that evolution built in, you know, good. food, good sex, a feeling of like. accomplishment. Like these are the. things that matter for us. Eudaimonic happiness is bigger. It's. really about living a good life. It's. about happiness that comes not just from. your own success, your own pleasure, but. from other people, from like actually. building character. And if you look back.

at the ancients, folks like Aristotle. and so on, they knew about both, but. when when push came to shove, they were. like, go for the eudaimonic happiness, right? That is really it's really about. They thought of like happiness as really. synonymous with building character, um. doing nice stuff for others, civic. virtue. It was much more like happiness. as virtue. And when you look at the. modern science, like this tension comes. up, right? And a lot of the. interventions I talk about with my. students, and maybe we'll even talk. about today, there's a real question. about which type of happiness we're.

building up. And I think where the. research falls is saying that like, if. we want to do this well, we should. probably go be going more for the. eudaimonic stuff. Like that's the stuff. we don't get used to. That's the stuff. where we get kind of more bang for our. buck in terms of interventions and time. and so on. But all too often, when you look on the. internet, if you look at social media. influencers, when they're talking about. happiness, they usually mean the hedonic. stuff. And that's great. I mean, it's. great to have, you know, great sex and. hot fudge sundaes, but ultimately, you. know, true happiness probably comes from. what we do with others and building a a.

broader good life. In ancient Greece, the big philosophical debate was also if. happiness is nature or nurture. What. does the science say? Are certain people. more predisposed to be happy? Is it. biological? Yeah, so the way scientists study this. is they do these classic studies with. twins. And the reason scientists are so. obsessed with twins is that you get two. kinds of twins. You get identical twins. who are genetic clones of one another. And you also have fraternal twins who. are as related as regular siblings, but, you know, they were in the same womb,

they probably grew up the same way, and. so on. And so what scientists do is they. say, well, if there's a genetic. component to happiness, if something. about the variance that we see in the. population is controlled by our genes, then those identical twins should look. more similar in terms of their happiness. than the fraternal twins. And like, lots. of studies have looked at this. And what. they generally find is that happiness is. heritable. In other words, that doesn't. mean there's a gene for happiness or. anything like that. That means that some. of the variance that we see in the. population is due to the fact that. somebody has one set of genetics versus.

another set of genetics. The important. thing to know about that those. heritability studies though, is that the. heritability factor is pretty low. It's. about the same rate as would you'd see. for the heritability of something like. religiosity or risk-taking, right? I. mean, religiosity is probably, you know, if your parents were super religious, maybe you're more likely to be super. religious, but obviously it's not set in. stone, same thing with risk-taking. And. I think that's the message of happiness. Yeah, there there's probably some. component that's a little built in, but. so much more of it is under our. conscious control. So, we can learn to.

be happy? I think that's the premise of my work, honestly. It's it's that we have much. more control over it. And interestingly, this was something that the ancient. Greeks didn't totally realize. You know, if you look at Aristotle, he's like, you. we should cultivate virtue. You can do. it, but it's going to be hard. You know, Aristotle talked about the happy few. It's like, you know, you can go for it, but it's going to take a lot of work, and probably a lot of folks aren't going. to be up for that level of work. I think. we think it's a little bit more. malleable scientifically today, but we.

still share with Aristotle this idea. that like, if you want to be happy, you. can do it. But like all good things in. life, you got to put some time in. >> When we think about happiness or. well-being, is is there a goal or is it. just in the way that Aristotle said, an. endless pursuit? I mean, can we. reach the mountain top and we just sit. there, or is it just always. searching for. that place? >> The pursuit of happiness is not like a. destination. Like if I hopped on a.

flight and I got to LA. If I hopped on a. flight to get to LA, I'd just be in LA, and I'd be like, all right, LA, I'm. here. I you know, and the fact, you. know, I had the ability to stay, I could. just stay there for a whole time. But. like, happiness doesn't work like that. It's not really a destination. And I. think that it it's funny when we think. about happiness because I think we do. kind of think of it as a destination, but we don't think of that with other. good things in life. You know, take. fitness. Like say you're trying to get. fit. I'm going to go to the gym. It. would be awesome if you took like one. really hard hit class and then you're. just good. Like you did that in your 20s. and then, you [snorts] know, all through. midlife you're like, I took my hit.

class. I'm good. It was a fitness was a. destination. No, we kind of get like you. got to keep doing it over time or those. those kind of benefits don't stick. And. I think that's the way to think about. happiness. You can get there, but it's. active. It takes work like so many good. things. >> Can I ask you what exactly. you mean when you say happy though? Because I was thinking about the nature. of moments when I felt happy. I lived. for 2 years in Rio de Janeiro and I. would wake up every morning and I would.

look out the window and you couldn't be. unhappy there because it was just so. beautiful. And I had my young daughter. and she would go to the beach every day. and I had good friends. And. you know, it's not even like looking. back I was happy. I knew at the time. that I was experiencing sort of. happiness. Is that different than just general. well-being? >> Yeah, I think there's so many of these. terms and it's so frustrating because we. have so many of these terms. I also. think that what lay people mean by these. terms is often a little different.

>> Yes. >> There actually studies on this of like. if you look at what lay people mean, they tend to mean a particular kind of. happiness. And it's kind of the one that. you're getting at, which is sort of. being happy in your life, which we might. think of as like a affective part of. happiness. You're just experiencing lots. of positive emotions, right? It's. awesome to live in Rio de Janeiro. It's. awesome to stick your feet in the sand. Like that just feels good. And that's. half of I think what social scientists. mean when they talk about happiness. They're talking about the the feeling, how it feels to be in your life. It's. kind of the ratio of your positive to.

negative emotions. Maybe we'll get into. this, but happiness isn't about getting. rid of your negative emotions. I think. that's toxic positivity. That's not what. social scientists mean. Um but it really is about having a. decent ratio between the positive to. negative emotions. That's kind of being. happy in your life. But happiness to according to social. scientists has a second component, too, which is this idea of being happy with. your life. Now, that gets more towards. these eudaimonic components. That's that. you're satisfied with your life. You. have a sense of meaning. You have a. sense of purpose. Um it feels good to to.

be you because of how you think it's. going. So, this is kind of a cognitive. part of happiness. And I think the work. of what we should be doing when we're. trying to pursue happiness the right way. is to in theory try to boost both of. those. >> You used the word toxic positivity. I think you're referring to this idea. that. we always need to be, you know, feeling. great and we should always be exuding. sort of optimism. Is that kind of what.

you're pushing back against? >> Yeah, that's it. I mean, you know, the. it's really summed up by the phrase that. you see on social media all the time of. good vibes only. Like good vibes only. If there any bad vibes, something's. really off, right? And that just like. doesn't make sense from the perspective. of evolution. Like when I talk to my. students, the way I often talk about. negative emotions is as a signal. Just. like other negative sensations, right? You put your hand on a really hot stove, it's going to hurt. It's going to burn. And the reason you have that feeling is.

it's a good signal. It's like get your. hand off that stove. So many of our. negative emotions are doing that for us. We should be so grateful for them cuz. they're helping us, right? If I'm. feeling lonely, that's a signal that I. need to change my behavior. I need to. seek out some social connection. If I'm. feeling sad, that's a signal that. something's amiss, right? I might need. more positive things in my life. A big. one for me that I notice myself is I'm. if I'm feeling overwhelmed, that means I. have way too much on my plate, right? I. have to make some changes. And those are. signals just like the signal we get from.

a hand on a hot stove that to get back. to equilibrium, we need to make some. changes. And it would be sad to get rid. of those. If you only had good vibes. only, I feel like you couldn't live a. positive life because you'd be missing. out on these cues about where you're. going off track and what you should. change. Do you worry if this idea of. pursuing happiness, always striving for. more, actually creates unhappiness? Oh, definitely. Yeah. I think this. There's really lovely research on this. from the researcher Iris Mauss at the.

University of California at Berkeley. Um. she actually has a paper about the. paradox of the pursuit of happiness, that the simple act of pursuing. happiness often makes us feel unhappy. But that gets back to this this fact. that we just don't get happiness right. When we think about the pursuit of. happiness, we think hedonic stuff, we. think good vibes only, and whenever. we're off track with that, we think. something's gone wrong. And when things. go wrong, we tend to have a different. set of emotions, what nerdy. psychologists like me call. meta-emotions. Those are emotions about.

emotions, right? You know, so you I. don't know, you go you go on some really. cool trip to Rio de Janeiro and you're. like, "Ah, I'm annoyed with the sand. Like it's a little too sunny. I'm not. feeling happy." That's emotion number. one, but then the meta-emotions come in. You're ashamed. How can I be in Rio de. Rio de Janeiro and not feeling happy? You're disappointed. Like, "Ah, I spent. all this money on this stuff." You're. judging yourself. What's wrong with me. that I don't feel so good? Those. emotions come up whenever we feel like. we're off the path of pursuit of. happiness, and the problem is if we are.

really into pursuing it, this is what. Iris's data show, the more you value. happiness, the more you think you're. supposed to get there, the more these. negative meta-emotions come up whenever. you feel like you're off track. So yeah, it really does seem empirically that. it's a paradox, right? That the more we. go after at least one kind of happiness, you know, the kind of hedonic in the. moment happiness, the more we think. we're supposed to pursue that and. something's really off if we haven't. What what's going on? Good vibes only. The more we kind of don't ever get. there. Key though is that the paradox.

doesn't come up as much if you're. pursuing the healthier kind of. happiness. You know, when I was thinking. about this, initially I was like, "Ugh, this is such a modern idea, this idea of. happiness. You know, this pursuit of. happiness is something that I'm sure. they didn't care about in the Middle. Ages when they were struggling to eat. They weren't worried about, you know, maximizing their sense of joy and. aspiration to live the good life.". And then I was sort of struck by the. fact that this has been. um something very human for a very long. time.

>> Yeah, I mean, I think we have cared. about happiness for as long as we've. been humans and could reflect on our own. emotions and reflect on the state of. being a human and what it means to be a. human. But, I think cultures really. shift how we think about what we should. be doing, right? So, I think if you look. at most of human history, sorry, I'm. going to nerd out and do like a mini. happiness history lesson. Okay, this is. great. Um you look at most of human. history, we just didn't think it was. possible to pursue happiness. So, the. word happiness comes from the cognate of. luck. It's hap, right? Like.

happenstance. You know, I think even. Shakespeare said, "Hap what hap may" or. something like that, right? It's like. it's just luck. You you might get a. boulder might fall on your head or it. might not, but you can't control that, right? That is for most of human history. how we thought about happiness. Like. it's good if you get it, but like you. you can't do anything about it. Then we. get to the classic Greeks, right? Folks. like Aristotle and stoics and so on. And. they had a slightly different view. They. they also thought, you know, it's it's. all got a lot to do with luck and so on, but you can actually go for it. If you.

try to build up your virtue, if you try. to go for that eudaimonic happiness, then you will get closer to it. You. might not you might not get there, right? The happy happy are the happy. few, but you can try, right? And I think. we had that classic notion for a long. time until we get to more of the modern. day, until we we to the 18th century. And that was where a few things started. to change in these really interesting. ways, right? One is that this is the. first time where we're not having all. the like Middle Ages stuff that you were. just talking about, right? There's less.

18th century again, a little less. pestilence, a little less terrible stuff. going on. Life is starting to feel more. controllable. Like even in really stupid. ways, right? They could control the. smoke that was coming out of their. chimneys. They made bedding that was. like a little bit softer. They had. better lighting in their houses, right? It felt like hap- better food, right? It's It's starting to feel like, "Oh, I. can It's reasonable to think I might be. able to control my hedonic happiness cuz. I've seen some evidence that my actions. can do that." And at the same time you. get cultural changes that fit with this,

right? This is around the science-y time. of like Isaac Newton and others where. we're learning like objects just move in. certain ways, you know, gravity pushes. objects towards one another. Scientists. are also starting to think, "Well, what. does that mean for humans?" Oh, we're we. move towards pleasure and away from. pain. These are like Jeremy Bentham type. arguments about this stuff. So, the idea. is like, "Oh, we're built to seek out. pleasure." Like this this is the thing. we should go for. So, yeah, so I think. every generation has wanted to feel. happy. I mean, I think, you know, Bentham was right. We are built to.

pursue pleasure and avoid pain. But the. cultural context in which we think about. that can be different over time. We are. in the notion of like and looks maxing. and like, you know, like get like. getting all your pleasure right now and. you know, spa pedicures and this kind of. stuff. I think we really just. definitionally think of happiness as. about me me me. And so much of the. science and so much of this classic. wisdom tells us, "No, it's not. Like. that's the way you get off track. That's. the way you pursue it in the wrong way.".

>> All right, so that brings us to what we. deal with today. And. >> Yes. >> I really want to focus on. social connection because the pandemic I. think showed us that if you don't have. it, you're really really going to suffer. in ways that were. uh perhaps. not clear. And I. have been trying to figure out what. happened to me during that period, honestly. >> Mhm.

>> I became a lot more insular. And I had. to sort of relearn how to make those. social connections after that period. Am I typical? >> Yeah. No studies bear this out. Pretty. much every survey I know of that asked. people about COVID like, "Was it smooth. sailing when you jump back into it?". People are like, "No, right? There was. some friction to this. We kind of got. out of practice from it." And that makes. sense because even though we're built to. be social, right? Even though in some. sense this should be easy, social. connection's hard, right? There's.

another mind there that you're trying to. like navigate and predict and you don't. often get direct access to it. So, it is. clunky and it does have some friction. Um that friction is one of the reasons. that, you know, as a professor whenever. I go into the dining hall I'm shocked at. how few of my students are just talking. to one another. This is something. professors remark about now. When I walk. into my classroom, say a seminar room, where all my students are sitting around. a table, they're not chatting with one. another. They're all on a screen looking. at it. And I think the problem for them. is there's like there's a little bit of.

friction. Like it's hard to get that. going, right? And when you didn't do it. for, you know, a year, a year and a. half, however long it was, yeah, it got. harder. You were simply out of practice. from it. And I actually think that this. is one of the reasons that our young. people, I mentioned my students, are so. lonely right now is I think just like. over their developmental time, they just. had less practice at it. Like the modern. world is taking away all these subtle. ways that we talk to one another. One of.

my favorite articles that looked at this. was by the Talking Heads frontman, David. Byrne. He wrote this article, kind of. presciently, I think this was back in. the 2010s, called Eliminating the Human. And his idea was like, if you look at. what pretty much every technology has. done, it's taken away the human. From. something as simple as like we go to the. ATM now, we don't have to talk to a. teller. We don't go to a record store. and talk with people about records to. get our music, we just have an algorithm. deliver it to us. In all these subtle. ways our technologies are making it so. that we don't need to like talk to.

regular people. And I think we forget. like the subtle ways that this keeps. coming up. >> What do you think AI's going to do. because they really is trying to. eliminate the human? >> Yeah, no. It's going to get way worse. because the friction of talking to an. LLM, I mean we're already seeing this, is isn't there, right? The LLM is there. whenever you want to talk, right? If. you're feeling up at 2:00 in the. morning, you can say that. The LLM is. really not judgy, you know, if anything. the current iterations when you and I.

are having this conversation, we're. learning are too sycophantic, right? They can almost create cognitive. delusions in people. But yet, that is. what our young people are turning to. Um. I just had Jean Twenge, the kind of. technology specialist on our podcast. who's talked a lot about phones and. she's really shifting to the dangers of. AI. One of her data points is just how. many young people, and we're talking. like 12, 13-year-olds, are having their. first relationship with an LLM. Like. their first boyfriend and girlfriend is.

a LLM, right? And so what's the friction. going to look like when they have to ask. a real human out on a date, navigate. like a sexual consent conversation with. a real other human with preferences and. so on. Um yeah, I think AI is going to. change this in ways that are likely to. make it worse. It creates this cycle. where it becomes harder and harder to. overcome that little friction to talk to. someone. >> Yeah, I mean my daughter asked me. recently, how do you start a. conversation with strangers? Um how do. you go up to someone that you don't know.

and just start to talk to them? And of. course that's a function of their age. and that's totally normal. I mean, they're learning how to interact in the. world, but I also realize like how much. harder it is. >> Totally. >> to do that nowadays because you're not. only interrupting maybe a social. dynamic, you're also interrupting. people's. you know, interaction with their. devices. >> Um and and I noticed it in my own family. because she comes up to me and I'm on my. phone, and I feel annoyed sometimes. I'm.

like, "Ugh, I'm in the middle of. reading. Can't you see?". >> Yeah. And so, all these cues that it's. appropriate to talk to someone, right? That they're making eye contact with. you. They're smiling with you. That. doesn't happen when your eyes are glued. to your phone. And there's such. interesting research on this. Liz Dunn, who's a professor at the University of. British Columbia, has a study I love, um. where she puts people in a waiting room, strangers in a waiting room, and just. either has them have access to their. phones or not. And she just measures a. really creative dependent variable, which is how often they spontaneously. smile at each other. You know, you're. sitting there, you just look over and.

smile. 30% decrease in smiling. >> No. >> Yes. Multiply that by what's happening. on the streets of New York, right? What's happening in every waiting room. in the country. >> New York people never smile anyway. >> in Boston? It happen- happens in Boston, too. I mean, what's what's happening at. your own dinner table, right? Where your. daughter's about to tell you something. about your day, but your eyes are glued. to your phone, right? And you. >> She talks about it all the time. >> Yeah. And you just don't notice, right? Um. And And again, you know, we're not like. harshing on people for their phones. Like, they're built to be interesting.

They're built to have every interesting. thing in the history of the universe. But the consequence of our eyeballs. being glued to them is really dangerous. Dangerous for the social connections we. care about most. >> I mean, this speaks to the wider. situation in which we find ourselves cuz. I was looking at some data from 2012 to. now, and there was a recent report by. the American Enterprise Institute that. shows that across all age groups. people are now socializing with their. neighbors less.

And the authors blame a lot of things. like technology, political polarization, post-pandemic issues. But do you think we've just become. sort of as a nation indoor cats instead. of outdoor cats? Like we just. have lost the ability to roam in the. wild? >> Yeah, I mean I think I think there's. something to that. And this is something. that scholars have been worried about. for a while, right? Rewind the late.

'90s, early 2000s, and you have Robert. Putnam's like seminal book on Bowling. Alone, right? Where he argued like back. in the day we'd go out to bowling alleys. and we people would bowl with their. friends and bowl together and bowl in. leagues. Nowadays, or nowadays being, you know, early 2000s, nowadays people. just go and they bowl alone, right? They're not part of a league, they're. not talking to their neighbors, they. just talk to their immediate friends. I. talked with with Robert Putnam for my. podcast, you know, and he had this. interesting idea of like, you know, I.

wrote that before like the internet was. like in baby days. Like we didn't know. that like viral TikTok videos were. coming, right? We didn't know that there. was television, which he was worried. about, right? That was one of the. factors he talked about, but we didn't. know there was going to be like, you. know, streaming services that picked. algorithms to get you exactly the best. documentary that only you Lulu would. love, right? We're fighting against. technology that makes stuff interesting. and attractive. Like there are whole. companies that are built to keep our. eyeballs on that stuff. Of course,

regular social connection with my friend. at the bowling alley might suffer like. in in the face of that kind of. competition. >> Yeah, I also spoke to Robert Putnam and. his prescription was, to put it you. know, succinctly, join a club, right? Um. But I think a lot of people feel like. they don't have time for that in between. work and caretaking. They don't feel like they've got time. anymore for those kinds of. labor-intensive social connections. >> Yeah. And this this is something that.

social scientists are also really clued. into. I think one of the coolest bits of. work coming out of modern day social. science is on this concept of what's. called time affluence. This is a lovely. work by Ashley Whillans at Harvard. Business School. Time affluence is. feeling wealthy in time. It's not how. much objective time you have, but it's. the subjective sense that you just have. free time for yourself. It's the. opposite of what so many people. listening right now, I am guessing, are. experiencing, which is what's called. time famine, where you're literally. starving for time. And this term famine, I think, works physiologically because.

when we feel like we don't have a enough. time, it's almost like famine. It. increases inflammation. It like does all. these bad things to our body. But. there's lots of work showing that it. does bad things to our social. connection. You just prime people to. think about time. Psychologists do these. in these cheesy ways where you. unscramble words, and all the words are. about time, so you're kind of implicitly. thinking about time. And then you just. look at like how many people folks talk. to in a coffee shop. And what you find. is that they talk to less people when. they're feeling like they don't have any. time, right? And so I think this time.

crisis, that of course it's worth saying. is worse for marginalized people and. people who are, you know, don't have. enough income and are worried about. putting food on the table. That crisis. is linked to the loneliness crisis. That. crisis is linked to the fact that we. don't have a lot of social connection. >> Let me ask you though, is the time. crisis real? Because I sometimes think about where I. choose to spend my time, and it's not in. making the effort to go out and join a. club, it's in watching a Netflix show,

sitting on my sofa, or bed rotting, as. it's called, on social media, um as a. way to quote-unquote relax, when it's. really not that relaxing at all, and I. always feel much better when I actually. make the effort to go out and make a. connection. But is is our time crisis real, or is it. Yeah, manufactured just by our bad. choices? >> Yeah, I'm going to say yes and no on. that one, right? Yes in the sense that. if you look to other countries that.

allow people to have a little bit more. time affluence. I'm thinking of like the. Netherlands, a lot of these countries. that come up like very high on the. happiness list in Scandinavia and so on. They, you know, have a 35-hour work. week. So, people have time to do stuff. with their friends and what you find is. that in those countries, Denmark in. particular, club membership is huge, right? People have like, you know, their. racquetball club and I don't I don't. think they bowl that much in Denmark. I. don't [laughter] know. I don't know. about bowling in Denmark, but the idea. is like they're joining they're joiners,

right? They in part because they have. time. Structurally, we've set it up so. that they have time. I think that does. matter and I think if we set things up. structurally to have more time in the. US, maybe with a four-day work week with. people like Juliet Shore have shown us. like, you know, by all accounts is. happiness-inducing, good for companies. and so on. I think we could get there, right? So, I think there there's. something about the time crisis that is. real. There are structural factors that. are stealing our time, but. if you look at the data, what you find.

is that people today, interestingly, actually have more free time than they. did 15-20 years ago. This is again. Ashley Williams' lovely work, right? Doesn't feel like it. >> It really does not. >> Really does not and that and there's a. reason it doesn't feel like it, which is. that the amount of time we have, the the. kind of blocks of time have shifted. They've turned into what the the. journalist Shultz has called time. confetti. These five minutes when. you're, you know, if our if our. conversation ends a little early or 10. minutes when your kid falls asleep a. little unexpectedly quickly, you know,

some work meeting ends. It's not a big. chunk, it's little chunks. We have more. time because we have more of those. little chunks, but those little chunks. don't feel like a lot of time and so. what do we do with the little chunks? I. know what I do before I knew about this. research, I check my email. I scroll. something quick on Instagram, right? Like I look at something dumb on my. phone, right? I don't do any of the. things that would make me use those 3 to. 5 minutes, 10 minutes in like a positive. way. And that gets to your point, right? Which is it in practice, we do actually. have free time. It's just like we're not.

using it that well. The other thing I. hear a lot of people say about why they. don't interact more socially is that. they enjoy being alone, you know? That. you know, they interact with people all. day for work or they, you know, have to. be in complicated social dynamics in in. other spaces. And so they just. prefer their downtime to be more calm, more peaceful. I do sometimes wonder if. people are just kidding themselves.

though. >> [laughter]. >> And if that's not a real thing. >> Yeah. Well, there's actually some lovely. new work on this on this topic by. Michaela Rodriguez, who I'm excited to. say is going to be my new colleague at. Yale. Her work focuses on this flip side. of the loneliness crisis. You know, she's she's a little younger than I am. and she's like, you know, for my whole. generation has spent all this time. hearing about how bad loneliness is. It's so terrible. It's you know, it's as. bad as 15 cigarettes a day. And she's. like, you know, two things there. One is. like, let's jump back to, you know, the. classic, you know, Aristotle, Buddhist.

texts and so on. Those folks were into. contemplation. They were into solitude. They were into the benefits of like. having the time and the bandwidth to. notice what's going on with yourself, to. think, to be bored, all these things. They knew that there were some benefits. to being alone, to alone time. Second. thing she worried is like, we know from. so much literature in psychology that. your perspective on things, what. psychologists call your construal, but. this is basically how you frame. something, that affects how you. experience it. You know, if I'm a.

student who's like alone in the dining. hall and I sit down and I think, "Oh my. gosh, this is my me time. I can. contemplate. I can think of what what's. going on." Or I can kind of gather my. thoughts before I go to class. That's. great. But if you're steeped in. everything that social scientists like. me have been saying is like this is the. loneliness crisis. Look at you, you're. sitting in the dining hall by yourself. You're going to feel crappy, right? You're going to judge yourself. You're. going to have all those nasty. meta-emotions that we talked about. before. And Michaela is like, there's something. damaging about this narrative and we. need to bring back the idea that.

contemplation might be helpful. And so. she's been doing all these studies first. showing that yes, really hearing all. this bad stuff about loneliness, having. a negative construal about being alone. makes it worse. But she also finds that. if you have the right construal, lots of. benefits to solitude. Great time to. emotionally regulate, right? If you've. been having really terrible week at. work, you kind of need that that night. alone. Maybe not to kind of Netflix, but. just to get your bandwidth about you, just have a tea, sit with your cat, process, right? Like that helps you get.

back on track when you're feeling. overwhelmed or anxious or so on. And so. I don't think we necessarily want to. justify it fully, right? Pretty much. every available study of happy people. suggests that happy people have some. strong relationships, but that doesn't. mean be in social connection all the. time. We can also enjoy and really. positively use our alone time. So. I want to focus on young people because. all the sort of happiness reports show. that.

happiness for young people has really. cratered. Is there something different. going on with Gen Z? I mean, is are they. sort of a different generation or they. just facing a more extreme version than. perhaps other younger generations have. felt? >> [snorts]. >> Yeah, I think they're both different and. not. I feel like I'm hedging too much on. your tough questions. It's like, yes and. no. But no, yes and no, right? One of my. upcoming episodes in my podcast um has. an interview with Alexis Redding who's a.

professor at the Harvard Graduate School. of Education. And she happened upon. these very fascinating data sets of. mental health interviews with Harvard. students from the 1970s that were never. published. They're actually just lying. around in some attic somewhere and she. found them. And she went to these. interesting interviews from the 1970s. thinking the following thing, "Oh my. god, this is great. We have a treasure. trove of direct evidence of how these. kids from, you know, my parents'. parents' generation are different than. the kids of today.". And she went through and she analyzed it.

and she found. there's absolutely no difference. >> What? >> you look at there's no difference. If. you look at the things they're saying, they could be my Yale students in my. office. Like there's one clip from her. research which was a student who said, "Oh my god, like I just haven't studied. for my orgo test. I don't know what I'm. going to do. Like I just haven't been to. class and like the test is today. I'm. just going to sit in bed and listen to. music cuz I just I like can't get out of. bed." And I was like, "That is literally. bed rot." Another one was students. saying like, "Everyone in my generation. just knows they're never going to get a.

job because of technology." And I was. like, "Oh my god, [laughter]. this is like, you know, like many 50. years before LLMs, what's going on?" And. so what's the story there? I think the. story is a kind of yes and no story, right? It is the case that rates of. depression, rates of anxiety, rates of. suicidality, those things are higher now. than they have been. But like true. clinical track of student suffering, that has gone up and we need to address. that. We're not addressing it well right. now. But the garden variety feeling lonely,

feeling scared about your future, like. feeling worried about what's happening. in classes, college students have been. doing that for as long as there have. been college students. And I think we as. adults forget that. >> I want to take a little culpability here. because I've seen you talk about. something called lawn mower parents and. I'd never heard of this um. phrase before. Is my generation of parents also to. blame for how kids are dealing with. social interactions that are hard? >> Um probably, sorry. Maybe yeah. So so.

lawnmower parent So most of our. listeners probably have heard of. helicopter parents, which is sort of. parents that whenever there's trouble. swoop in to kind of help. You know, your. kid forgets their backpack to their. soccer game. You drive home and you go. get it. You know, they're having trouble. at school. You go in and talk to the. teacher, right? Lawnmower parenting is. like a even worse step of that, where. the idea the metaphor is that you're. mowing the lawn to make everything flat. so your kids don't trip. You're like. getting rid of the weeds that could get. in the way of anything. And I think as.

parents we do that, right? And and I. definitely see this with my Yale. parents, right? Who are, you know, checking, calling to make sure their. kids are getting into the right classes, um calling to complain about grades. I've had parents send me emails about a. student's grade. Another one that I was. shocked by, but is more common than you. think, is parents who are their college. students' alarm clock. Like so, you know, if they have a big. test, the parent will call and make sure. they got up. You know, it's like, you.

know, there's not like they missed it. We're just kind of making sure, just. checking in to make sure. And those. things are well-intentioned, right? Like. parents have to care about how their. kids are doing. I think parenting didn't. used to be a verb, like now it is a. verb, right? You really have to actively. take steps. But some of those steps are. removing the friction, the high grass. that's there, that's an essential. teacher for kids developing social. connection, for kids developing the. ability to get through conflict, um for.

them screwing up, right? I can't tell. you how many parents like are. proactively trying to prevent their kids. from screwing up, which on the one hand, yeah, you don't want your kids to screw. up. But oh my gosh, is screwing up such. a wonderful teacher. You know, if I had. to think about the things that taught me. how to do things differently in life, oh. my gosh, screwing up teaches me way more. than somebody doing it for me. Let me. ask you um something that might be. connected or or not. Is there anything. about our happiness that you think is. uniquely American?

>> Oh, for sure. I mean, we're such weirdos. when it comes [laughter] to happiness. I. mean, we we're really into happiness, first of all. Um you know, we care a lot. about it, and that means that we tend to. have more of that paradox of pursuing. happiness that we talked about before, this idea that when you go for. happiness, uh you're the more you go for. happiness, the more unlikely you are to. get it. Um and this is one of the things. I find most fascinating about Iris. Mauss's research. She's actually she's. she works at UC Berkeley, but she's.

German. And I think one of the things. that drew her to this work is that she. you know, she'll claim that like Germans. have just like a different relationship. with the pursuit of happiness than. Americans do. And there's some data on. this, you know, there's studies that. have analyzed, for example, like uh. condolences cards in Germany and other. parts of Europe and the US. And what. they find is that, you know, all of them. mention grief and something, but like. the German cards stop there. They're. like, you know, in deepest sadness or. something. Whereas the American greeting. cards are kind of like, but you know, silver lining. They're in a better place.

or something. And she's like, the German. person just stop it. What is like. somebody died and you're sad. Just like. be cool with it. So, I think Americans. are kind of weirdos when it comes with. happiness. We're also focused on like. optimizing, right? And and this feels. like very right now. This feels very Tik. Tok, but you know, this is something. again Americans were thinking about for. a long time, right? Like rewind to the. early 19th century, and you have. scholars like Alexis de Tocqueville, right? Who's this French scholar who. came over to the US as like this. anthropological experiment. Like what's. going on with the new country? And what.

he remarked about was that like. Americans weren't just constantly. pursuing happiness, but they were like. never satisfied with it, right? He had. this phrase or something like they they. you know, Americans would like make a. house, and before they're even done. making a house, they'll start making a. new house cuz they really want to like. make sure it's even better than it was. before. And I think [snorts] it was just. this like kind of obsession with going. after stuff and optimizing that was. there even back then. And my guess is. you know if Tookful Tookful showed up. today and took [laughter] a look around. and be like, "Oh man, this is even worse.

now.". >> It's funny you mention this cuz I've. noticed that there's a lot of interest. in your work from what I'd call. productivity dudes. Um people who are obsessed with really. practical tips and clear-cut answers for. how to always be improving, you know, like always be getting better. And I've. heard you tell them things like the. science backs up that your employees. will be more productive if they're. happier. Do you have. misgivings about productivity and this. idea of optimization? >> Yeah. No, I I think a couple things.

there. What Yes, I definitely have. misgivings is the answer. Um but I think. one of the things that we have to pay. attention to is like how we're. optimizing. Again, we we're trying to. optimize in many cases for like. happiness. But another thing I worry. about with the kind of productivity. culture is that we're like just never. going to get there. I recently. interviewed Oliver Burkeman for my. podcast who is this kind of productivity. expert, you know, he used to would. review like time performance apps and so. on. And he had this realization which is.

like. it's never going to be enough, right? I. could get the perfect app and it's never. going to be enough. I'm still a finite. human. There's still too much stuff to. do. Like this fantasy that I have about. eventually optimizing my schedule is. just going to be a fantasy. Like we're. just never going to get there. And one. of the ways you can productivity hack is. to have radical acceptance about that. There's always going to be too much. stuff. You're never going to be perfect. Like it's always going to be hard. And. we can just give ourselves also have.

some grace and just radically accept. that. It's not the usual move for the. productivity hack bros, right? Like. self-compassion, realizing your limits, like recognizing your common humanity. But it's what the data suggests leads. you to happiness. And perhaps given all. those data on, you know, you're if. you're happier you produce more, and so. on, might actually lead you to more. productivity, too. >> Let me ask you, though, because I can. hear a productivity bro, I hate to use. that term necessarily. I get a lot of. productivity non-bros, yeah. But,

productivity. people, um, or just people who are interested in. economics, and say, "Actually, the. foundation. of the American experiment, the. foundation of our. uniqueness, and our power economically. comes from what de Tocqueville saw back. then, which is this idea of always being. more perfect, a more perfect union, that. we can. improve ourselves, and make ourselves. better, and that in work we find.

joy, and we can find this, you know, kind of miracle economic experiment. And that Europe is stagnant, and. >> [laughter]. >> and that, you know, is maybe happier. than us, but certainly not as. productive. >> Yeah, I think there has to be a balance. here. And I think the problem with. American society is that we may have. pushed ourselves into the point of being. so burned out, that we're no longer. being productive, right? And this might.

be the position that I sit, right? I see. a lot of my students who, you know, to. get into an Ivy League school, like, yeah, I've worked incredibly hard to get. there, but they show up, and they have. incredibly high rates of depression, incredibly high rates of anxiety, incredibly high rates of burnout. A lot. of students say that they're miserable. that they got there. I think we can. shoot for a little bit more balance. And. and the reason I think that is that so. many studies show prioritizing your. social connection, prioritizing your. sleep, giving yourself rest, right?

Those are things that make you more. productive, right? Even if all you care. about is what the economist might care. about, the capitalist bottom line, right? We want, I don't know, higher. GDP, or get into the perfect school, or. whatever your bottom line is, most of the time you get to that bottom. line better. if you give yourself a break, if you. take some time off. >> Yeah, and you know, we've been talking. about sort of people go to Yale, people. who are in. demanding sort of perhaps office jobs, but of course there's. the structural inequality that comes.

from. >> Totally. >> American society where people are having. to work two or three jobs just to make. ends meet plus raising families, etc., etc. And I guess that feeds into the. lack of a social safety net and all the. other things that you see in other. places. Um, where the same holds true no. matter where you fall on the income. scale, right? >> Yeah, no, I think um, I mean a couple. things there. One is that we One of the. reasons that countries like Denmark and. so on are happy is because they have. those social safety nets, right? Um, it's one of the reasons people can pick.

pre- careers that they like. You're. taxed so heavily that doesn't pay you to. be like a a finance bro cuz you're going. to get taxed anyway, so you're like, "Well, I might as well you'll be an. artist if I want to be an artist, so I. might as well be a teacher, right?". There's the lack of like income. inequality means. people have an excuse to follow their. purpose of what they really care about, which can allow people to feel like. their life is better. And so, I think. those structural things matter a lot, right? I I get in trouble sometimes um, for talking about so many of these.

individual solutions of like, "Oh, you. should engage in social connection or. you should write in a gratitude journal. or meditate." And people think that, "Well, don't we also have to have social. safety net?" And I'm like, "Yeah, of. course. Like, this is a yes and. situation, right?" Like, all these. individual things that I'm suggesting. are supposed to complement, not. substitute the stuff that we should. really be doing. But, another thing we. know about individual action is that it. just makes us more productive. It gives. us emotional bandwidth and that can mean. the resilience we need to fight for.

stuff. I think people mistakenly think. that these individual strategies. sometimes build up the resilience you. need to just like put up with being in a. bad society. Um, Um, but I think the. real goal of them is to give you the. resilience to like fight the bad. society. And there's data on this um, Constantine Kushlev who's at Georgetown. has this paper that he he talks about. the Pollyanna hypothesis, which is this. idea like we just make people happy, they're going to be like this is the. Lulu Pollyanna walking around like. everything's great. Like all these. structures of inequality, like I'm cool. with that cuz like fine, right? His. point in running the paper is like,

well, that's a hypothesis about how. human nature works. Hypothesis like you. make people happy, they're just going to. ignore the structural stuff. And what he. finds is just the opposite. If you look. at people who are taking action to fix. structural problems, he does this in the. domain of like climate concern and also. he's running this around the times of. Black Lives Matter and so who goes to a. protest and so on. He finds that like. it's the people who have the highest. positive emotion, the people with the. best mental health that are the ones. that are going and trying to fix stuff. >> It goes back to where we started our.

conversation. around the eudemonic sense of like how. do you become happy and how do you find. meaning? >> And getting back to the American. experiment, right? Like this was what. the forefathers meant, right? They they. had a problems, right? The forefathers. were filled with people who are not. focused on everybody's eudemonic. happiness. Those unalienable rights are. for landed white dudes, not for. everybody. But in their idealistic. sense, what they were trying to go for. is that eudemonic sense of happiness. It. was about civic virtue. It was about.

making everybody happy and [music]. that was the happiness they thought we. should all be pursuing. >> Laurie Santos, thank you so much. I've. really enjoyed our conversation. >> [music]. >> Thanks so much for having me on the. show. >> I'm Lulu [music] Garcia-Navarro. >> And I'm David Marchese. >> And we're the hosts of The Interview, an. audio and video [music] podcast from The. New York Times. >> Every week we interview fascinating and. influential people from all walks of. life. >> Subscribe to our YouTube channel so.

you'll never miss an episode. >> [music].