A Skeptical Conversation With Wellness Guru Jay Shetty | The Interview

truth when it comes to healing. is really really open. Make wisdom go viral. That's J. Shetty's. self-proclaimed mission. The YouTuber. and podcaster is a giant in the world of. wellness and mental health influencers. >> Thank you so much for allowing us into. your space. >> Most favorite interview ever, >> Kendall. Jenna Kendall, thank you. >> He's had huge names on his show on. purpose. Part of Shedy's success has to. do with his message, a breezy [music].

blend of pop psychology and self-help. tips. >> When things are bad, we think they'll be. bad forever, and we're wrong. >> Overlaid with a reassuring patina of. Eastern spirituality. While there's no. doubt about Shett's [music] success, I. had other doubts of my own. A 2024. article in the Guardian raised questions. about many aspects of Shed's public. life, including accusations of. plagiarism on his platforms early in his. career and even the extent of his. training as a monk. That's reporting. that Shetty and his lawyers have.

disputed and which we talked about at. length in our conversation. So, how did. a man who espouses monklike thinking. [music] come to live a glamorous life in. LA? It's a seeming contradiction that. he's apparently been thinking about, too. [music] Here's my conversation with. J. Shetty. >> [music]. >> Hey, David. >> Hi, Jay. How are you? >> I'm doing really well. I'm doing really. well. Uh, yeah. Sorry. How was your. weekend? >> It was good. It was mellow. Melo. Just. stuff with the kids. How about you? >> Oh, amazing. Uh, it was Grammys week, so.

very busy, but fun and uh enjoyable. So, it was good. >> Um, you know, it's funny. I was I've. been watching so much of your stuff for. honestly the last six weeks or something. like that. Really trying to immerse. myself. And just yesterday, I watched a. video of yours that had a segment about. how to have difficult conversations. I. thought the the uh most useful part of. it was that you talked about um the. being clear about one's own intentions.

during a conversation and and I think. that's a very useful thing and I I uh. feel like my intention with you and with. everyone is to just understand as much. as I can. >> I love that. Well, thank you for sharing. that with me. And my intention today is. always to try and share myself uh as. authentically as I can. >> Um, good. Because I I hope I have some. hard questions for you. Uh, so. [laughter] we'll see we'll see how that. goes. But um you know for for people who. aren't familiar with you and your work,

which of your beliefs would you say are. most fundamental to what you do as a as. a sort of wellness, self-help. influencer? What What are you. fundamentally trying to teach people. about? >> I wouldn't even say I'm trying to teach. The four things I really am encouraging. people to reflect upon are the four most. important questions I believe that we. all have to answer in life. The first is. how do I feel about myself? It's a.

decision we make every day when we wake. up and we look in the mirror. The second. is uh what do I do for work? You know, what do I do with my time? The third is. who do I choose to love and receive love. from? And the fourth is how do I choose. to serve the world? And so all of my. work is dedicated and devoted to helping. people reflect on and answer these. questions for themselves. So whether. someone come comes and asks me like, "Hey Jay, like I really want to find my. purpose or I'm kind of stuck in my job.

right now or maybe they're going through. a breakup and they're looking for. insight on what will help them heal or. someone who says, Jay, you know, your. work really, you know, your work helped. me through a divorce or your work. stopped me from committing suicide.". Like I think those are the kind of. things people usually come to me with. and so that's what I find is usually the. kind of questions and reflections and. insights that people are looking for. from me and I'm always trying to help. them think through those challenges. And. how how uh much do you find the um sort.

of the answers to those questions change. depending on the individual. circumstances. Is it the case that you. know broadly speaking the same kinds of. answers apply. in most circumstances or it's more the. case that you know depending on the. specific circumstances the answers to. say you know how how can I find more. purpose or how can I feel better about. myself uh change. There's two types of wisdom in my. opinion. There's timeless wisdom,

universal principles and language that. affects all of our hearts and that we. all resonate with. And then at the same. time, there's very specific timely. advice that we all need in a really. difficult moment. And so really, it. depends on how personally I'm in that. space with someone. If someone's at an. event of mine and they put up their hand. and they're on the microphone, they ask. a question, then I get to look in that. person's eyes. I get to see their body. language. I can ask them a follow-up. question. If I'm creating something like.

a podcast episode, then that's naturally. more broad because it's me speaking from. one to many. And so to me, it's about. being adaptable and being personal and. being specific. And so my approach is to. always try and meet the person if I. really can get to know them and actually. be present with them. So you kind of the. to my mind big uh differentiator for you. or distinguishing factor is the fact. that you you trained as a monk. Uh you. know your your book of course was called. think like a monk um and specifically uh.

you correct me if I'm wrong but you. trained within the Iskan movement uh. which is sort of colloquially known as. the Hari Krishna. Is that right? >> [snorts]. >> So I trained uh as part of the Rad. Gopinath and Bak Bakhan Mana ashams uh. across India and the UK and Europe and. uh they are uh parts of that. Yes. And. um you know because of that training. there is this sense of uh ancient or.

spiritual wisdom around your content. And it's interesting because when I read. your books or or listen to your stuff, [snorts] you know, a a lot of it sort of. reminds me of um sort of almost. cognitive cognitive behavioral therapy. material or or self-help material that. I've encountered in lots of different. places. um you know like list making um. sort of gratitude uh journaling um you. know you talk about the importance.

simple importance of of breathing but. it's within this um sort of uh framework. of spiritual thinking and can you tell. me a little bit more about the interplay. between sort of your spiritual training. and uh sort of more secular self-help. ideas that also comes up in your work. >> Absolutely. Yeah. I've always been. passionate and fascinated by the. intersection between ancient wisdom and.

modern science. And when I first read. the Bhagat Gita, which is the primary. text that I reference in my books, uh, which is a 5,000-y old text, and Eastern. wisdom, to me, pretty much every modern. growth idea or personal development idea. can be somehow traced back to it and. found in it. And so I find it to be an. incredible um map and conversation. starter for so much of the spiritual. wisdom that I love to share. So you know. recently we've been talking about the.

value of circadian rhythms and the need. to see sunlight early in the morning. And to me there's something known as sun. salutations in the eastern tradition of. yoga where that's exactly what you would. do. Now they didn't talk about it as a. circadian rhythm starter but that's. exactly how you'd start your morning. So. I've always found it fascinating to find. this intersection because I'm personally. deeply interested. I also find that it's. really beautiful when there are really. practical ways of showing how these old.

ideas have a lot of validity today. There's not many new things but there. are deeper ways of understanding the. same thing. You know, we hear about. things like uh um you know, mindfulness. has kind of uh exploded over the last. decade or so or um you know, people will. talk about uh karma or or um sort of uh. living within one's dharma, which I. think um dharma can basically be. understood as uh one's life purpose. Um.

and you know people talk about these uh. concepts that are rooted in really um. religious and spiritual practices. And. sometimes I I wonder if. people maybe mistakenly think that they. can decouple the spiritual practices or. like the the true religious root of. these things um and just sort of use. them in kind of like a almost like a.

fast food kind of way. Like it's a it's. a a a shortcut. >> I have a different perspective that I'd. like to share. Yeah. Uh my my. perspective is that sometimes someone's. starting point in a deep practice may be. really simple, easy and potentially even. surface level. And that may be them just. dipping their toe in the water. And. that's how we all started something. Like I'll give you an example during the. pandemic. I uh I [snorts] did uh I think.

around 40 days of meditation on live on. Instagram, Facebook live and YouTube. live and people could just join from. their home and the amount of people that. I still meet today who will come up to. me and say JJ I started meditating. because of you now all these people had. never meditated in their entire life is. meditating on Instagram live the deepest. most profound meditation probably not. but if that's their starting point if. that's the connection point then what a. beautiful thing that people have gone on. to like travel and maybe go on a. meditation retreat and maybe do more. with their own life with whichever.

teachers or practices that they love. I. think to me it's it's almost like it's. it's a good thing. I I'm very interested. in um people's turning points in their. lives. Um so I'd like to ask you about. what I think was your big turning point. Uh which is, you know, you were a young. man in London. Um I believe you were. going to business school at the time or. >> I I I attended Cass Business School. which is now known as BA business. school. Yes. >> And and um you ended up kind of on a.

whim going to a lecture by a monk whose. name was was it Garangadas? >> Garangadas. Yes. >> And you you sort of had this uh uh you. were swept away had this uh epiphany. that you know he was saying something. that that you needed to hear. Can can. you um just tell me about what you heard. in that moment that was so powerful to. you that you thought well that that it. actually became kind of a life-changing. moment. really uh David it was probably even.

beyond what I heard it was seeing a man. who externally was not attractive to me. in any way you know as a uh you know. seeing a man in robes with his head. shaved uh with an Indian accent from. India And I didn't understand even in. that moment probably of why I was so. attracted to him. But it was his sense. of peace, his sense of ease, his sense. of confidence in being so different. And. I think at that age in your life, you.

know, you're always trying to fit in. And and here was someone who didn't fit. in at all, but felt the like the most. comfortable person in the room. And to. me, that was more important, I think, than anything he even said. you know, I. want to ask you something related to. that, which is um you know, it's to do. with kind of your uh arc and you know, I. think one of the one of the things. that's uh sort of particularly unusual. about your arc um is that it it's it. kind of looks from the outside like it's.

an inversion of of uh. like a typical uh monk's journey where I. think, you know, usually uh or sort of. the typical version of that is somebody. uh you know decides to embrace monastic. life and then uh you know uh embraces a. kind of aestheticism or a renunciation. of you know [snorts] material things, wealth, whatever it may be. Um,

in some ways it seems like you've like. you decided to pursue a monastic life uh. a and then have. uh moved towards um you know you're I. think you're probably doing pretty well. for yourself financially. You know. you're you hang out with uh glamorous. people. Um you know you're a successful. entrepreneur. Um are there any ways in. which you feel like this the spiritual. tradition in which you were training is.

in tension with sort of the the life. that you're living now? First of all, I'm not Yeah, I I'd say that there's a. understanding in uh spiritual tradition. which is all about how as humans we tend. to idolize or demonize things and that. the ultimate truth is to be able to. utilize everything for a higher purpose. and I think that's what's often missed. and so there's a beautiful statement in.

the Gita which I was talking about. earlier the Bhagat Gita that says. Attachment and aversion are two sides of. the same coin. And so I think we often in our western. understanding see detachment. as better than attachment. However, our. the spiritual understanding is far more. subtle and far more refined. That. detachment doesn't mean aversion. Detachment means you can be close to. anything in the world and use it for a. higher purpose. Now I'm not saying I'm.

doing that. I'm not saying I live in. that. I'm saying I try my best and I'd. say that's my aspiration. My aspiration. is that every day I'm living in the re. quote unquote real world or you know, however we call it, uh I'm reminded of. my flaws. I'm reminded of my uh how far. away I am from uh truly living up to the. spiritual pursuits that I have and have. had for most of my life now. And I love. that. I love being reminded of how far I.

have to go. And so I would argue that I. feel more close to growth in my current. life than I ever did uh in the ashram. because in the ashram I could almost. forget or think maybe I'd already found. it. >> Is there any part of you that uh thinks. maybe that's an elaborate. self-justification? >> Uh I have questioned that many times and. I continue to question it. Uh I think. that the spiritual philosophy of 5,000.

years old is pretty clear on it. So I I. take that as my authority over myself. However, the other side of it uh to be. quite frank and honest is I think it's. also a graduation. It's like I'm uh I'm. I'm married. I have businesses. We have. teams. We have companies. I'm not a monk. anymore. And I think it's uh it's almost. like it's almost like having to. recognize that you've evolved, you've. grown, you've your your life has. changed, and yeah, I'm not living that.

way anymore. It's partly why I wrote a. book called Think Like a Monk, not Live. Like a Monk. Uh that was that was. intentional because I I think everyone. can think like a monk. I don't think. everyone, including me, uh can live like. a monk for the rest of their life. >> Yeah. I think you know the the think. like a monk live like a monk distinction. is um sort of related to what I was. asking about uh earlier which is the uh. how how usefully we can decouple um sort. of religious belief from sort of. religiously inspired uh action and um.

and I I know I keep asking you to to. like I keep asking like where is the. line here but I'm interested in trying. to understand where these boundaries are. but Is like is is there a point at which. um like. thinking like a monk. >> if you're not also living like a monk. stops being monklike thinking. Do you. know what I'm saying? >> This is like a maybe that was my version. like a zen riddle. But.

>> it's a. >> Yeah, exactly. >> Yeah, it's a co. Yeah, zen con. Uh no, David, I I I really appreciate you. I I. can tell that you're really trying to. understand it and so I want to try and. try and meet you there and and and help. you with that. >> Yeah, >> it's it's it's probably different across. traditions and everyone everyone has. their own version. It's Wait, let me let. me let me really sit with your question. cuz. >> how much can you think like a monk if. you're not really trying to live like a. monk? That's what the question is.

[snorts]. And my and my response to that with. sitting that and thank you for repeating. it is. what if thinking like a monk was the. beginning of that journey and living. like a monk could end up being a. potential pathway for the person who. tries to do that. Like I'll give it if. if every if every person in the world. started to think like a monk, things. would just improve in general, right? So. So I don't I'm not I don't want to force. everyone to try to live like a monk.

because that's not going to happen. tomorrow or ever. I don't think that's. ever been the goal. But it's how can we. take these mental practices and how can. we apply them to our everyday lives to. actually improve our sense of peace and. purpose. I think I think that's the. goal. >> Um I I'd like to ask a little bit more. about your specific content. Now when I. uh. watch your your material and mostly. mostly I I watch it uh um you know there. are some [snorts] guests like for.

example uh an Adam Grant you know who. who is as uh you know he's a uh I. believe he teaches maybe at the Wharton. school or something like that highly uh. credentialed uh psychologist um and then. you you also have on folks like, you. know, John Edward, the uh, you know, the. psychic medium, uh, who's, you know, let's just say his his credentials are. maybe more up in the air. Um, do you do.

you think about sort of what. responsibility. you have as far as the sort of uh, credibility of a given guest? >> Yeah, absolutely. Our team does a lot of. research. uh team uh works very hard on. figuring out who we think would be uh. great to introduce our audience. We. think it's a responsibility that we take. very seriously. At the same time, we're. also listening to our audience as to who. they'd like to learn from, who they'd. like to listen from, what kind of things.

they're struggling with and challenged. by. And a lot of guests are guests that. the audience wants to hear from that. they're asking for in the comment. section or writing to us on our website. And so I think to me my job is to be. curious uh and it's to be curious for my. audience and community and it's also to. allow them to be involved in finding. people that they believed are important. for their healing, important for their. growth and important for their wellness. journey as well. >> Does skepticism fit into what you do at. all?

>> Yeah, absolutely. I I I think that it's. uh you know, for example, like I I. recently interviewed um an. astrologologist. What is astrology and. how does it work? >> So, astrology is the study of how the. sky mirrors what happens on Earth. >> That's something that I had a lot of. questions about because it's not. something that, you know, I'm I've never. really read a horoscope out of a. magazine or, you know, and and felt that. it was, you know, valuable or valid.

necessarily. And so there's definitely. my own personal interpretation that. comes into it, but it's still coming. from a place of wanting wanting to learn. and wanting to see where it goes. And it. doesn't mean I always walk out of a walk. out of anything a believer um or or a. you know a supporter in that sense. But. I am fascinated. I'm fascinated for my. audience. I think avoiding topics or. putting them aside doesn't doesn't gain. any value either. >> But how do we figure out what's true? Like isn't there also some value in. trying to deter determine whether or not.

>> absolutely. >> you know uh astrology or or. psychic mediumship is is actually. >> true and and not just a pseudocience. like truth truth is why we're here to. figure to figure out what is what is. what is true or not. >> Totally. And and I don't disagree with. you at all. I I think you're absolutely. right. I just think that truth when it. comes to healing. is really really open. It's it's it's. not like. healing doesn't look the same for.

everyone and what helps some people. won't help other people. And that's also. true. And so it depends what your. definition of truth is. And I think. sometimes when we talk about truth, which is important and and of course the. most valuable conversation, not every. it's like me saying to you like um. David, how how long have you been with. your partner? >> Uh 17 years, something like that. 20. years. >> Okay. Amazing. Amazing. Which is. incredible. >> She'll be mad I didn't get that exactly. correct. [laughter]. >> I'm sorry. Somewhere between seven and.

17. >> Sorry to sorry to expose you like this. I apologize. Uh congratulations. That. honestly that that's amazing. It's my. wife and I's, it's our 10th wedding. anniversary this year. Congratulations. >> And 13 years together. So, >> um, but, uh, it's like, how do I prove. that my love for my wife is true? >> Like, what what what proves that? And, and it's and it's not I'm not saying. that there isn't a way of answering that. question, but it's a very hard question. to answer as fact or fiction. Um,

because everyone will say something. different. Or if I asked your wife and. you asked my wife, what proves to you. that David loves you? or Jay, what. proves to you that you know your partner. loves you? Like they they'd probably. give very different answers, I imagine. >> Yeah, I think I think you're mixing some. things together that maybe shouldn't be. mixed together. I mean, the answer to uh. what uh would what is proof of my love. for my wife? I think the proof would be. my actions every day. But the truth of. that proof is a very different kind of. truth than you know uh is my is my.

broken bone healed or can the can the. stars tell me. >> what's going on in my life or can we. communicate with the dead. The these are. all different kinds of of truth that. require different levels of proof. >> for sure. But the proof is not I I don't. disagree with you at all. I I mean I the. questions that you're specifically. looking at I'm I've been uh both um. curious and skeptical in in those. interviews. I guess what I'm debating. with you and enjoying the discussion. that we're having is I I think it's.

really hard to call someone else's. personal experience of healing with. something as not true. Um, and and that. is something that I'm not willing to put. aside because that's an important thing. that that humans also need to be curious. and skeptical about is is allowing space. for that. I think it's easier to be. like, "Yeah, true. We, you know, the. facts are all that matters.". >> Yeah. So, you know, I'm sure you know. there was this Guardian article that. came out in 2024 um where the writer, you know, he sort of wrote about ways in.

which uh you know, he said you, you. know, you sort of um you know, fudge. details, specific details about what. your actual training was as a monk, how. much time you actually spent in India. and sort of the timeline of of how all. that happened. But my my question about. that is whether you felt like you did. have to try and you know simplify or. elied details about your backstory.

so as to make your story more legible to. to more people. like if there was a. story about J. Shetty that you wanted to. tell publicly, did you feel like you had. to um tell that story a certain way, even if maybe that way was not 100%. factually accurate? >> I've I've always been open and honest. about, you know, that time in my life. and clear about it. I mean, I lived as a. monk for three years. I traveled across.

India, the UK, and Europe. And I think. what's fascinating to me is the value I. gained from that time is the teachings. and the lessons I share. And that's what. I'm really about and that's what I'm. really trying to deliver to the world. Um. Jay, I feel like we can go deeper with. that answer. Uh were there things that. you felt like you had to simplify or or. um just tell in in a more fashion? >> No, not at all. I I uh extremely clear.

about and open about my experience. It. was uh 3 years it was traveling. I was. learning deep meditation in India and. study and then traveling to London to. share and teach. Standing to traveling. to Europe to share and teach that was. part of our practice and I think I've. created my created so much content and. there's uh insights to this you know. whether it's my books my podcasts. everywhere. And it it would be hard for. anyone to consume all of that to really. get the full picture. And so I think. that's that's really I think if someone.

was reading and listening and following. me on Instagram and social media and. everything they'd they'd be able to very. clearly see it as well and they do. And. the other uh thing I wanted to ask about. from that guardian piece was you know. you there has been criticism uh of you. in the past for uh earlier in your. career sort of um sharing uh words of. wisdom without attribution or uh um you. know I think the your online uh coaching.

school there were questions about. whether sort of uh aspects of its. accreditation. uh were were misleading in various ways. And as far as I can tell, that stuff has. all been cleaned up. But I guess my. question to you is sort of what uh uh. what might account for those missteps? Was there any intention to mislead in. some way? >> I think if you look at my videos from. day one, you'll see me uh quoting,

sourcing, crediting appropriately all. the time. And I value the work of so. many other people that I share and. wisdom from others that I've gained from. and want to pass it on. And we actually. have a team now that's fully dedicated. to crediting and sourcing and. researching to make sure that all of. those things are kept intact. And I'm. I'm really proud of that because it's. such an important thing for us to be. doing to make sure that people who. deserve the credit uh receive it. >> But that was an issue earlier, right? Is. like the what you're describing as a.

change in practices. I think that at the time there's so much. wisdom out there. There's so many things. being shared. It was never intentional. Uh it was never my values are to be. clear and transparent and uh simply. share wisdom that I've gained and. learned and that's where if there were. any discrepancies, they were definitely. cleared up. >> Um are there things that you feel like. you've learned from criticism of you. that you've encountered over the years? Yeah, I've learned that uh.

intention is important and um I've. learned that there's. such a. profound need to see anything that comes. your way as a mirror to see how you can. improve in every way. And so I think. that whether it's feedback, whether it's. criticism, uh I look at it from the perspective of. how can I be better, how can I improve, how can we be better, what can we do. differently. Uh and and I'm always. willing to, you know, take that.

responsibility to do that because I. think that's what my teachers would want. me to do. That's what my training was, you know, geared towards me to do. And. so anything that comes my way is is. always a way of improving, a way of. being better next time. I mean, I'm so. excited about uh the production company. we're building. I'm excited about all. the exciting work that we're up to. because I almost can't believe that I. get the opportunity to do this. It's um. it's I feel very grateful for it. I feel. very fortunate, very lucky.

>> Um. I was talking to someone about the uh. production company that uh you're is it. is say you la you're launching it or. what how would you describe what's in. >> we're announcing it with you? We're. announcing with you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, I haven't even I haven't even. talked about it yet. Yeah. This the. first time. But uh um I was talking with. someone about uh Perfect Strangers and. she said to me that uh one of the things. you're interested in doing is being um. like a destination for a certain type of. celebrity interview. Um is that.

accurate? >> I'm not not sure. No, no. I I would say. I would say on purpose already is that I. mean I would I would say that my podcast. has already been established as a place. when we find uh people of whether. they're athletes, musicians, actors, artists, experts, thought leaders who. really want to open their heart and have. a space to really talk about things that. they've never talked about before and. behind the scenes whether it was Madonna. last year talking about her spiritual. journey or Emma Watson talking about the.

uh you know the behind the scenes of an. incredible career. Uh I feel on purpose. is that destination and I'm really. grateful and proud that we've been able. to create it because I want to tell. stories that make people feel less. alone. David, did you see uh did you see. adolescence? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. I don't know. I I was I was. extremely moved by that and I feel like. that's like a gold standard of things. that I'd love to be able to create and. put out there. stories that help parents. have better conversations with their.

children, help uh partners have more. efficient conversations with each other, create content that sparks conversation, allows people to have deeper. conversations about mental health. awareness and what it looks like. Uh to. to really raise awareness of these. things in a way that isn't on the nose, that isn't maybe teachy in a traditional. sense, but allows people to really. brought into the heart of what's going. on and what's happening at the root. And. so I think that I'm glad that you've. seen it because I think that's a really. good example of something that I would. aspire to want to make.

>> Um, you know, you you uh talk about the. subject of detachment in your work. Um, do you think you've practiced detachment. in this interview? >> Have I practiced detachment in this. interview? Um, what's your definition of detachment in. that question? I think in some of my uh. questions around sort of criticisms or. controversies, um you gave answers that.

felt um. uh. safe and maybe a little more. comfortable. uh rather than detaching. from what safe what was safe or. comfortable and and answering in sort of. a a somewhat more uh objective or or. clear way. That's why I ask [snorts]. >> and I would I would uh say that to me my.

definition of detachment is am I able to. be present here and be open and honest. with you and clear with you and uh I've. tried to do that to the best of my. ability. >> I appreciate you speaking with me and I. am very much looking forward to talking. with you again and I think it's just a. couple days. >> Yeah, absolutely. I look forward to as. well. Thank you so much. On the interview, we talk to our guest. twice. [music]. This time, Jay Shetty and I go deeper.

into the seeming conflict between his. monklike principles and being an [music]. influencer. Jay, I'm I'm very happy to be speaking. with you again. >> Me, too, David. It's good to see you. >> Uh, do you have any thoughts from our. first conversation? Anything lingering? >> That's a great question. Uh I think. there was you know something that that. maybe I didn't get a chance to share. with you and it was around this idea of. just we talked a bit about you know any. sort of criticism coming your way and I. think when I think about that it's you.

know to let you in on that. It's like. it's like for me that's uncomfortable. It's hard because you're trying to do. something with the best of intentions. and I think we all want to feel. understood and we want to feel seen. And. I think when you're misunderstood or not. seen in the way that you would like, it's it's hard for everyone. And it's. been very hard for me and difficult for. me. And I think when you're being. judged, the first point is not to uh. push that person away. It's to see. whether that exists in you. And I think.

when you actually look at yourself in. that way, you can find everything exists. in you. You can find, you know, and and. that's really vulnerable to say. It's. really open to say that you you can find. that every intention, every desire, every uh you know, every intention. exists within you. Uh if you really take. a look in the mirror and if you're not. scared of looking at that. And so when I. look at my experience of all of that, I've kind of come to this conclusion of. well, I do want to be deeply spiritual.

and I want to be really successful. like. I I do want to be uh deeply connected to. my monk principles and I want to do. really well as an entrepreneur and it. almost feels like to me the balancing of. that or the aligning of that very. honestly and candidly speaking is worth. pursuing rather than this fixation we. have specifically in the west of being. like well I'm not going to I'm just. going to be this and this is how I. define myself to the world and myself. um that answer is opened up so many.

questions for me. Um, and you know, I. think I uh I definitely have judged you. in a certain way. And it's related to. the, you know, sort of trying to. reconcile the monkish principles with. the sort of entrepreneur uh influencer. principles. And I think it's it's really. a a.

it it's a skepticism that comes from a. particular type of perception of you. And I think that when I think of you as. someone trying to operate within sort of. a a spiritual or a mental health realm, then my skepticism kind of grows. If I. think about you as someone operating. within an entrepreneur or a sort of. influencer realm, then. I feel like you're sort of who you are.

is much easier for me to understand. But. that's that's my those are my own. hang-ups. I want to know what I want to. know how you think you should be. perceived. Like what is the correct lens. through which to understand J Shetty? >> David, I want to be honest about that. Going back to my earlier point that I. was saying is I don't I don't fault you. for that skepticism and that thought. process because I've felt the same. internally. Right? So like to to be honest with you,

it's like I don't the reason why that's. even interesting to hear for me is. because I've had that conversation with. myself. my. the um the paradox or the paradoxical. nature of my journey is something I've. had to live through and I've had to. reconcile mentally, emotionally, spiritually, practically like it's. something I'm wrestling with on a daily. basis. And so when you say how I want to. be seen, >> yeah, >> it's it's not even an easy answer.

because I'd say that I I want to be seen. as someone who is striving spiritually. and striving entrepreneurially at the. same time because I I don't think that. Yeah, I I think both spirituality and. success are not mutually exclusive and. if even if they are and that's what I. discover at the end of my life, I'm open. to that. But I'm excited by the. experiment and hypothesis of if it is. possible. That that experiment. fascinates me and pulls me closer to it.

And I I'll tell you why I believe it's a. worthy pursuit. >> Mhm. >> Is because the other choice is to say, okay, I I think people can just be. successful and not be spiritual. I don't. know if you want to live in that world, David. I don't want to live in that. world. But I don't want to live in a. world full of successful people who. don't have deeply held uh values and. have integrity and have and try and. create a difference in the world and be. of service and make an impact and do. things that are valuable. I don't want. to live in a world where people who are.

successful don't have those values. And. I'm glad I get to pass that on and be. the latest uh mailman for uh and and. that's how I really see it. And so I I. think it's a bit of a weak argument. because the the alternatives are not. ones that me or you would subscribe to. either. I I realize I I didn't ask this. earlier. I think it's an important uh uh. part of your story, but why did you stop. uh training as a monk? >> Yeah, it's uh it was one of the hardest. points in my life. Um because it sounds.

crazy to say this, but. it was my dream while I was at college. like and it's and and that wasn't. because I lived a perfect life at. college at university, but it was like. I'd made it kind of like this thing of. like I really hope I can do this after I. graduate. And I was actually at one. point thinking of quitting university. and doing it then. And the the monk. teacher said to me, no, you should you. should finish your education and and do. it after that, which I'm very grateful. they did that. Um, [snorts]. but it was one of the toughest things. I.

dreamed about it. I'd wanted it. I'd, you know, really believed that that was. going to be my path. I really believed I. was going to do it for the rest of my. life. Whether that was me being naive or. whether it was my um youth enthusiasm, uh, you know, at 22 years of age, I I. really believe that. And so leaving. wasn't easy. It was it was very. difficult because I felt like I was. failing. And that at that point in time. was one of the heaviest things I was. going through even though it because it.

felt like a divorce. >> But was there a precipitating incident. like why did you make the decision to. >> Yeah. No, no, no. So the so the why was. it was extremely rough on my health. >> Um my health was taken a massive hit. Um. I'd spent time in hospital. Yeah. I'd. spent time in hospital during my time in. the monastery. Um both in India and the. UK. And I I was really like I was I was. struggling. I had had polyp in my throat. that had to be lasered out. Um, a year. before I left, I had uh exhaustion, which was some doctors said it was.

chronic fatigue. It was I was really. like I was emaciated. I I weighed around. I want to get the metrics right, but I. weighed around like 60 kg if that's. right. Like I was like really really. emaciated and I'd lost lost a lot of. weight. >> Physically you were struggling. physic. Yeah, physically I was struggling and. and. >> so there was a massive health component. that really really hit me hard. And I. think what's really interesting is when. your physical health goes, it affects. your mental health and your emotional. health even more. So partly what I'm. expressing is feeling like a divorce and.

a failure. I think it's also because my. my physical health was falling apart. The other side of it, funnily enough, at. the same time, was I genuinely deeply. believed that all of that self-awareness. made me realize I wasn't a monk. and. maybe I don't have what it takes and. that realization I mean I left now 30. it's been 13 years since I left so I'm a. bit distant from that emotion now but um. it's still it still hit me so that's. like a collection of I'm I'm letting you. in on all of it because it's it's not as.

easy to be like there was this it was. like there was health there was my. self-awareness through all the. meditation there was emotional weakness. mental weakness uh understanding of who. I was there was it was it was a. complicated time. >> I just have I don't mean to belabor I. have one more question about [laughter]. sort of one just one more just one more. about kind of like a a tension. So, you. know, I understand that one of your uh. larger goals is to like uh I guess you. could say like bring people into the. tent where they might encounter ideas.

that can help improve their lives. But. sometimes like is the is the way that. you have to do that. um can that feel a little bit funky for. you? For for example, the way you have. to title your videos online, right? Just. these are sort of algorithmic. necessities and necessities for. capturing people's attention, but they. have titles like, you know, um, attract. anything you want, break free from your. drama, wake up completely different. Now, of course, you and I both know no.

one video [laughter]. can deliver on that promise. Um, but I. feel like your position is no, but you. know, that's how you get them in and. then we present them with information. that can be helpful. But is is there do. do you ever feel like it's a little. Yeah, I guess funky is is the word that. comes to mind for me. Like do you ever. feel a little funky about the fact that. like to get people in maybe you you have. to kind of make these hyperbolic. promises? >> It's a great question. I I I think that.

there's a I love writing something like. that and then almost debating the. concept in my video. Like for example, I. debate this idea of manifestation. So I. have many videos that have manifestation. in the title, but it as soon as it gets. in there, I'm like guys, there is no. such thing as manifesting what you want. simply by dreaming about it or writing, you know, whatever it may be. I'm. actually breaking it down. And so. sometimes I think it's a way of. debunking myths. Sometimes it's a way of. actually uh introducing people to new. ideas. And and I do agree with you that.

we live in a uh attention economy. We. live in a space where we have to have. the ability to uh help someone get. through the door. That that is really. that is just the way the world works. It's just the way things are today. And. to me, if the promise and what's on the. inside is valuable, that's actually also. what will make people stay. So if it was. simply just a title, the views and the.

transformation wouldn't be valid or. value. It wouldn't happen. Jay, I know. I've know I've been uh sort of. implicitly critical or skeptical of the. idea about the idea of like uh uh quick. hit uh uh fixes or or easy answers, but. can what's one thing we can leave people. with? [laughter]. Hopefully then you know your answer. We. can clip it and put it on our socials. and it'll go viral. What's [laughter]. one. we have to pick put the right title on.

it too, but what's what's one piece of. advice you want to give uh people here. at the end of of our conversation that. you think could really help them when. they go back to their lives. Sorry, I'm taking my time because you've. asked me such a big question and I don't. want to be uh I don't want to be um you. know.

I think as humans we have this tendency. to say god the last 5 years in that job. were a waste of time now I found my path. or you know what that relationship just. wasted three years of my life and I I. don't know if I'll ever find love again. and we have this habit of almost. disregarding our experience our lessons. our emotion, our everything we've been. through and now saying we found it. And. I would encourage people to reflect on.

those moments, to learn from them, to. value them no matter how difficult and. painful they might be. And uh and. there'll be so much value in it. I don't. think that clip's going to go viral or. give you what you want, but uh but it's. it's it's it's something that's been on. my heart and mind a lot. >> Yeah. Well, you know, all I ever want is. an honest answer. So, thank you very. much and uh and good luck with. everything in the future. >> David, you too. Thank you so much for. your time and energy and uh I hope our. pops cross again. [music]. >> I'm Lulu Garcia Navaro. >> and I'm David Maresy.

>> and we're the hosts of the interview an. audio [music] and video podcast from the. New York Times. >> Every week we interview fascinating and. influential people from all walks of. life. >> Subscribe [music] to our YouTube channel. so you'll never miss an episode.