Will humans still fight in future wars?

The battlefield of the future, and this. could just be in a few years time, will. be a no-go zone for humans. It will be. unethical to send humans into those. battlefields. >> Today, we're talking to one of the men. behind one of Europe's largest defense. startups. Four years ago, Torstston. Riyle co-founded Helsing, which makes AI. enabled weapons. Torstston, welcome to. Inside Defense. >> Thank you. Great to be here. >> There is a perception that in Europe, we're still in places stuck in a. mentality that says defense is bad. defense companies are still like tobacco.

or you know those ESG companies. Yeah. Is that outdated this view? >> I think that's a problem of the past. Um. I I think now um that that chapter uh is. is is closed. I think now it's much more. about how can we um you know as a. civilian companies and industry work. better with with defense companies. I. mentioned I mentioned Sheffller earlier. um and we're talking to and have been. approached by many other companies as. well who want to work in defense. Some. of that I think is born out of a. necessity because obviously parts of the.

industry, automotive industry being one. example are are struggling at the. moment. They're going through a. difficult phase. Uh but a lot of it is. also genuinely out of conviction that it. is required for European sovereignty. And what people forget very often is. that the manufacturing muscle in Europe. is extremely strong in in some areas is. actually much stronger than the US. And. um the ability to be able to overcome. and use that now overcome the um. previous prejudices prejudices around. defense and actually use that muscle is.

incredibly powerful but that's happening. now. I'm I'm much less worried about. that. Had you asked me this question. three years ago I would have agreed but. I think that is over now. >> There's also one other element of the of. culture that I want to raise which is. the politics of Europe. The Europe that. you wanted to defend when you founded. this company um uh is a Europe you know. presumably of liberal democracies up. against you know dictatorship on its. eastern border in the three countries. you have a meaningful presence France, Germany, the UK. We're seeing the rise. of clearly populist parties uh in some.

cases some would call them you know many. of them farright parties that have a. very different vision of Europe. How do. you feel about reviving European defense. industry, building weapons that could. then be operated and run by governments. that have very very different views, ideologies and approaches to those of. the Europe you were trying to defend in. the first place? >> Yeah, I mean this is a situation. obviously that we are not seeing just in. those three countries, but actually in. many other countries as well. That is. something that we all um you know both. as companies as well as individual. citizens have to have to work with and.

have to work um and deal with and at the. moment obviously those companies or. those those those parties are on the. rise. I think um what's going to happen. in the future uh we'll have to see. I. think the the nature of um what is a. liberal democracy at the moment is in. flux but that affects everyone right. now. It doesn't just um affect our. industry, our company in particular. You. spend a lot of time talking both to uh. engineers, to industry, but also to. generals, to to admirals, to those. running armed forces, and to.

politicians, defense ministries. You. know, you have you have a really. interesting vantage point on this. We're. at a kind of moment in Europe where I. think there's a debate and one side says. Europe is is really in trouble. You. know, it's rearmed too slowly. The. Russians are rearming fast. And you see. quite, you know, uh, cons statements of. serious concern coming out of people. like Mark Rutter, the NATO secretary. general, but also people like, uh, the. new French chief of defense who says, you know, France has to be prepared to. lose children in a conflict. German. intelligence warning about Russian. intentions. On the other hand, you have.

people saying, well, the Russian army is. barely able to take, you know, a few. kilometers in Ukraine each each day. Uh, it's been, you know, uh, weakened. profoundly. In a real conflict, NATO. would easily, quickly, and rapidly. defeat the Russians. Having looked at. the guts of our armed forces, because. you've provided weapons for lots of. them, you've seen how the Ukrainians. have fought. Where do you land on this. debate of how wellprepared we are now. should a war break out next week. >> The first thing I would say is that we.

should not underest underestimate. Russia. Um Russia has shown in. particular with what they're doing right. now around unmanned systems. Um the SHA. being one example that they have learned. that they should focus on a small number. of autonomous systems or tolerated. systems and then really scale those up. That's a really important um lesson that. the Chinese will have learned too and. that is a lesson that we're only in the. process of learning right now. So first. of all, I I I wouldn't underestimate um. Russia. Um secondly um I I I think it is.

true that we have a lot of um you know. still formidable and and um and powerful. systems but they will be overmatched by. large autonomous swarms. That is just. going to be the reality. And thirdly um. we also have to face the fact that the. battlefield of the future and this could. just be in a few years time will be a. no-go zone for humans. It will be. unethical to send humans into those. battlefields. We need to be able to. develop systems ourselves so that we.

have not humans fight those machines but. machines. And however dystopian that. sounds, that is the future we have to. face. I wish it wasn't that way. It is. going to be that way. So we're going to. have to build autonomous systems. ourselves that are controlled by humans. that can defeat very large numbers of. autonomous systems from the other side. That's going to be situ the situation. Where are we right now in human in. Europe? um several countries have now. understood um that this is the case and. are um and are heavily investing in.

this. I would say first and foremost. Germany in terms of the defense budget. which is going up from as you know 52. billion a year to 153 billion a year. which means that 100 billion extra is. available essentially a lot of it on new. equipment spend so it will feel like a. lot more than a 3xing of a defense. budget. It'll feel more like a 10xing of. defense budget. >> and that gives you the ability to buy. conventional systems and Germany is. doing that. Whether it's got the mix. right or wrong I think is a debate in. its own right. Um but it also crucially. gives you the ability to start spending.

on new types of defense systems and I. don't think it has been seen that much. publicly but Germany is really investing. in new um types of defense systems in. the kinds of systems I talked about. earlier in autonomous mass. So there are. large contracts now coming up in Germany. and it's actually going at a very high. pace. You see similar things in. Scandinavia. You also see obviously that. Poland is investing heavily in defense. There are other countries where the. fiscal headroom right now doesn't allow. um to invest quite as much and I think. those are the countries that we should.

worry about the most because you can see. that they want to invest in defense but. they don't have the money right now and. there difficult decisions will have to. be made either terms of increasing that. fiscal headroom by taking on more debt. by uh reallocating resources um out of a. budget or by cutting existing legacy. programs. All of these things are hard. Um, they're much harder than I think the. situation has been in Germany, but I. think they're required. >> A really sobering message.