Tucker Carlson on whether Trump betrayed America First over the Iran war | The Economist

In your copious podcasting about this in. the last two weeks, you have made the. argument very strongly that. the United States has been pushed into. something not in its own national. interest by pressure from Israel and the. lobbying power of Israel. >> Well, it has been. The question is. whether the person who makes the. ultimate decision, which would be. President Trump, should have pushed back. That's it. Of. course Of course. Trump should have pushed back. >> As previous presidents have done.

>> To some extent, some very limited. extent, George W. Bush didn't push back. We wound up in the Iraq war and now. everyone pretends, "Oh, that was that. nothing to do with Israel." I was there. I was talking to Bush. That's not true. That's a lie and that's why it's so. important from my perspective to say out. loud what is true before history is. rewritten and disappears. >> and it's lying that gets us here. Because we say, "Oh, no, no, no. Lobbying efforts had no effect." Really? We say that about our pharmaceutical. policy? No. Everybody understands that.

every policy a large government makes. including ours is influenced by various. stakeholders who are affected by the. policy. But this is the one area we have. to be like, "No, it had it had nothing. to do with the fact that his biggest. donors were pushing him to do this or. that BB visited seven times in one year. Are you joking?" I'm not going to play. along with the lies anymore. I don't. hate Jews. I don't hate Israel. I love my country. This has happened yet. again. I can give you a whole list of. previous times where it's happened and I. think.

we need to know what happened so we. don't. hurt ourselves further. >> I am not saying don't blame Israel. I. think Israel has its own national. interests and Israel was certainly. pushing for things, but I think there is. more agency and therefore more. responsibility with the President of the. United States and the Trump. administration. >> He represents me. I live here. >> That's But that's important because in. the way you described it. >> him into this. Now, he shouldn't have. gone along with it. He should have. pushed back. But to pretend that Trump. woke up one morning and was like, "Oh, I. think we're going to. >> that, to be clear. I'm not saying.

>> Israel pushed him The Prime Minister By. the way, it's not even just It's not. Israel. There are a lot of people who disagree. in Israel. I know some of them. It was. the Prime Minister of Israel, Benjamin. Netanyahu, who pushed our president into. doing this. And I hope this is the last. time that Netanyahu or any foreign head. of state will ever push an American. president to do something that hurts. America. >> Well, let's talk about that cuz I think. we may be, as you yourself said earlier, at a tipping point in terms of the rapid. decline within the United States for.

support for Israel. And you see it You. see it huge I mean, you've seen it for. several years on the Democratic side. You're now seeing it on the Conservative. side, and you're seeing a collapse. amongst younger people. I'm not telling. you anything you don't know. How is that. How quickly is that going to change the. politics of Israel in the United States? >> I mean, it's hard to know. There doesn't. seem to be a direct connection, not just. on Israel or foreign policy, but on. almost any issue between what our. leaders believe and do and what the. public thinks and wants. The public.

begins to believe, in their frustration. at their declining standard of living, for example, or declining birth rates, or whatever it. is that's getting worse, and a lot is, that there's no way to use legitimate. means to change it. Voting doesn't work. If they believe that, then they will, by. definition, find other ways, and those. ways are destructive, and I don't want. that. So, I think it's very important. that a government, even a non-democracy, even a monarchy, respond to the concerns. of the population. You can ignore them. for a while. If you ignore them for too. long, you get overthrown.

>> Let's Let's talk though a little bit. more about how this declining support. for Israel, which I think is one of the. most significant political shifts in the. United States in recent years, how is. that shaping the MAGA movement? I mean, are you now seeing I mean, when I look. at the opinion polls, I'm told that. there's 100% support amongst MAGA, or. 95% support for the war. Uh on the other. hand, you're clearly a man with a large. number of followers who is making a. very, very different argument. >> I was standing next to Trump at his.

house when he got elected. I've known him a long time. I talked to. him a lot. So, you know, I. I don't you know, I don't fully. understand what MAGA is, but I know that. the core promise of the Trump political. movement, Make America Great Again, was. America First. And it was articulated by. him repeatedly at every campaign stop. for 10 years. So, everyone in America knows this. I. think everyone globally knows this. The. core of this movement was the idea that. you would and we could debate about how. you do it, but you would try to put the. interest of your country at the center.

of every calculation about how you. manage your country and how you interact. with the world. It's not a It's the. single most obvious and single most. popular political concept ever devised. >> Do you think Donald Trump has betrayed. America First? >> I think that this war is something that. he promised he wouldn't do, not once, but countless times. And until YouTube. is banned, we'll be able to prove that. And the idea behind it.

um. is not only contrary to America First. Um it may be its inverse. There's no argument that uh. changing the regime in Iran. helps the United States. And if there is. an argument, I'd love to hear it. And by. the way, if that argument is. sensible. and convincing, I will support it. All I. care about is the United States. So, but. I haven't heard that argument a single. time. All I've heard is. the kind of. tiresome fearmongering about nuclear. weapons, which Iran did not have. It's.

uh it's insulting, actually, even to. make that argument to me. That Iran's nuclear program posed such a. threat to the United States 3 weeks ago. that we had to launch a full-scale war. against them. That. No one's even arguing that because it's. stupid. And the facts don't support it. So, why did we do this when we did it? Because Israel wanted to do it. at They. chose the timing here. No one disputes. that. And timing in war, as in life, is. a lot of it. And it determines outcome. And it's They hadn't thought through. what was going to happen next. The.

Israelis hadn't, and we hadn't, because. we didn't have time to. >> It sounds to me like you think he has. betrayed it. >> This war is clearly contrary to what he. promised and contrary to the idea that. your leaders should put your interests. before those of foreigners, period. We. put Israel's interests before ours. Trump did that. Bibi's not in con- wasn't elected. president of my country. My president. was. I supported him. Obviously, voted. for him. But, um, yeah. >> Let's talk about the the way the debate.

develops in this country, because I. think you're right. There is It's. extremely difficult to talk about. subject that you and I have to spend the. last half hour talking about, because. >> Why is it difficult to. >> because there is a conflation, very. often, anybody who criticizes Israel is. vulnerable to being called anti-Zionist. or anti-Semitic. And there's a. conflation. But but but the exact people. you've just been talking about, by the. in the in the kind of firmament of. political discussion. >> good faith response, or a tactic?

>> I'm about to ask you that question. Clearly, I think you and I agree. we have both been critical of the. Israeli government. I just want to kind of clarify terms a. bit here. Do you. >> really been critical of the Israeli. government. >> I've been plenty critical of the Israeli. government. I've told you at the. beginning that we were against the war. >> What do I think of Gaza? >> Yeah. >> I think the war in Gaza, to start with, was a perfectly reasonable response in. response to the horrors of October 7th. I think now the places, I mean, I've. been there. Have you been to Gaza? I've. been to Gaza since since the war.

started. >> They would not let me in. Trust me, very few journalists get into. Gaza. >> can go in. But. nonetheless, you go in and you see a. flattened place. I think it is a. disaster. A disaster for the future of. Israel, a disaster for the Palestinian. people, a horror. 70,000 people dead. >> Why would you describe it first as a. disaster for the future of Israel? I You've got tens of thousands of. civilians murdered, but it's foremost a. disaster for the future of Israel. No, it's foremost a disaster for the. families of the dead kids. >> absolutely I made three points.

>> Everybody sucks up to Israel in this way. that suggests they're afraid. And. everyone is afraid and you know that. Everyone's like, "The real problem is. calling people anti-Semites. allows real anti-Semites to flourish.". It's like, "No, actually the real. problem with calling people anti-Semites. who aren't is accusing the innocent of a. crime they didn't commit." And the real. crime in Gaza is killing people who did. nothing wrong. So, those are the real. problems, I would say. But no one can. say it cuz you have to be like, "Oh, no, but really October 7th was. >> you're talking about, CUZ. WE'RE HAVING [laughter] WE'RE HAVING A. >> Everyone watching this knows what I'm.

talking about. >> Well, let's get on to that right now. Because you. are critical of the government of. Israel. Do you believe in that Israel's right to. exist? Would you consider yourself a. Zionist in that narrow definition? >> What does that mean a right to exist? >> The existence of the political state of. Israel as it exists. >> has a right, what does that mean? >> That you don't you think it should. continue in its existence as a state. right now. So, you you are the you do. not agree with Iran, for example. >> Let me just ask since you asked me the. question, it's fair for me to get you to. define the term so I can answer it.

You've asked two questions. The first. was, do you believe Israel has a right. to exist? And the second question was, do you believe Israel should continue to. go on as a nation-state? And those are very different questions. So, I often hear the phrase. >> created as a political entity in 1948, does it have a. state. >> exist? Is that what you're asking? >> We I don't want to get hung up on the. right to Should it Should it. Should it continue to exist? That's what. That's how I define narrowly Zionist. >> because the phrase you used was devised.

by the Israeli government. Of course, does it have a right to. exist? And so my question to you would. be What does that mean? >> answer my question? It's a very simple. question. >> question is. Are you asking does it have. a right to exist or do I want it to. exist? Do I seek its destruction? >> Fine, answer it that way. >> Well, of course I don't seek its. destruction. I've already said, as you. know, cuz I said it to you, I don't want. Israel to be destroyed or have to use. nuclear weapons. >> We've We've established that you are in. that narrow terms of Zionist. If that's.

how you. >> I'm in no sense a Zionist. I don't want. any country to be destroyed and I at all. and I don't want people to die, particularly ones who committed no. crime, cuz I don't believe in killing. innocents, period. That's the basis of. Western civilization. Eastern civilization has a whole. different view. They believe in. collective punishment. I don't. >> So you're in no sense a Zionist. >> I don't even know what that means. Why. don't you ask define the the term and. then I'll tell you whether I am What's a. Zionist? >> A Zionist in my narrow term, this. definition, is that the state of Israel, the political state of Israel, has the. right to continue existing.

>> The right? Where does that right come. from? >> What What do you mean? These are like. >> I'm not being a lawyer about it. I just. want to know what you're asking me. Because I don't know what you're asking. me. Wait, no, no, I think it's a lot of. >> [laughter]. >> You don't want to define your question. And I don't know why. I don't know what you're asking me. I've. already said I don't want Israel to be. destroyed. I don't want anyone to be. killed and you've said does Israel have. a right to exist? Does it have a And I. My question is. what right are you talking about? Does.

Britain have a right to exist? Does the. United States have a right to exist? >> There was a world order built up after. 1945 which suggested that aggression. should not be condoned into countries. that the countries with borders have the. right to exist. >> I totally agree with that. If that's. which is why the first thing that Israel. did within two weeks of this war. starting, which is supposedly. existential for them, was take Southern. Lebanon, take someone else's country, as. they have done repeatedly. And no one. even mentions that. And so I guess I. would be opposed to that because I guess. I I.

Lebanon has a right to exist. I thought. Gaza had a right to exist. >> But I noticed that as soon as we started. portioning rights, only one country gets. them. Putting words in my. I believe in universally applicable. standards. And if they're not. universally applicable, they're not. standards, they're preferences. That's. why I believe in human rights, not. ethnic rights. I don't think Jews have. more rights or less rights than anyone. else. I don't think Christians have more. rights or less rights, blacks,

Filipinos. I believe in human rights. that derive from the creation of people. by God.