Sweden’s PM on whether NATO can depend on Trump | The Economist

Joining NATO is. a bet on America, among other things. It's a bet on the strong transatlantic. link. Your own security national. security documents talk about, you know, that strong transatlantic link. Does relying on America feel like a much. riskier bet now than when you joined. NATO? >> The story of Swedish security policy. since the. 40s or at least the 50s, we have been relying heavily on the US. >> You didn't talk about it always. >> We didn't talk about it. It was.

originally secret, you know, just. secret. In a way that today really can. discuss the legitimacy about being so. secret. Formally neutral, but secretly. extremely Western, but nobody should. know, not even our own population. I'm not that proud of that legacy. So, the dependency on the US was extremely. big in very many as to very many. aspects. So, my reading is the the opposite. Joining NATO we join also all the other.

NATO members, not least the NATO allies. in our own neighborhood. We have never. been cooperating as closely. with our neighbors as we do now because. of the NATO membership. So, so, I'm. very, you know, transparent. US presence. in NATO is obviously very important. And. orderly process in the burden shifting. is extremely important as well. It is Is. this fair? But, it should be orderly. Uh but, we are now depending less.

on bilateral American. We don't mind the. cooperation. We have quite contrary, but. we are depending and relying more on. partners in our own neighborhood. >> So, I'm so struck by, you know, we spend our time talking about middle. powers trying to work out how do we, >> You know, what about the Canadians? >> Yeah, navigating this world of big. bullies. But, there's a I there's a. really interesting gap between, you. know, at the beginning of this year you had. the Canadian Prime Minister Mark Carney. He said at Davos, you know, that the. middle powers need to, you know,

basically stand up, push back against. the big bullies. And he meant, among. others, America. Your middle powers, you know, the. Nordics, the Baltics, you're all working. together. You seem to be much keener to. avoid a direct confrontation. with Donald Trump. Do you think that Mark Carney. is going about this the right way? >> I would not try to kind of, you know, to. assess or even less judge on on domestic. Canadian choices. We have extremely good.

cooperation with Mark Carney and the. Canadian government, and I really. appreciate his efforts also to be very. close to Nordic countries. The most. Nordic country outside the Nordics, as they and we normally call each other. We have regular meetings, and I really. appreciate that. We are not seeking. conflicts. We can accept that we have. different views on many things. When things happen that we think are. kind of challenging core values for us, then we are extremely frank. Greenland,

Denmark, such a case. And no American doubt. doubts our opinion on that, our stance. on that. On the same time, we do a lot. to increase the possibilities for. Swedish tech companies to to cooperate. with American ones, to be successful on. the American market. And we we do. appreciate a lot of these these. cooperations. We are very pragmatic in. that sense. Speak out when necessary, but also protect Swedish national. interests in relation to the US.

>> But sometimes there's a kind of. I say there's an edge to it, right? I. mean, when you're in Canada celebrating. selling, you know, Saab surveillance. planes, or you're selling Gripens to to. Canada. I mean, that that's Sweden. offering itself as a safe alternative to. an unreliable America. No, that's that's. what's going on. >> That's not for us to decide. It's not We. We love. >> going on. >> We love to sell the Gripen fighters to. To be frank, we haven't yet finalized. the.

a deal with Canada even though we are. proud um. making proud offers to them. Uh. But, of course, we are doing everything. we can to to make. make have these business opportunities, not least in this very dangerous world. Then every country has to make their own. decisions on whether to to how they kind. of spread different risks and and. dependencies across the world. >> But, you know, the things that have. happened, including, as you say, the. threats to take Greenland, have been. such a shock that people are now saying,

"We We can't depend on America to this. extent. We're worried about American. kill switches." And then people often. say, "So, maybe instead of buying an. F-35 from America, we need to buy a. Gripen fighter from Sweden." So, I guess. >> I don't mind the reasons. I don't mind. the reasons for them to buy Gripen. I. was I will help Saab to sell Gripen. anyway. >> So, you know, you you don't want this. fight with Donald Trump, but he's a. pretty good salesman for your weapons, no? >> Absolutely. And um. And different countries will always have.

to make up their mind on providers, on. dependencies. And I think this actually. goes slightly beyond the current. situation. Uh I mean, US is a one of the. is the world's biggest provider of of of. military equipment, but Europe is also. stepping up for good reasons because of. availability. >> Of course. >> But, also on dependencies. >> And trust, no? Around the table? I mean, I hear from other European. governments. There's a There's trust has. been badly damaged, no? >> A few things you really need to be very.

sure that you actually can access when. you need them. There is a reason why. Sweden built up a. national competence on military. equipment since the '30s. >> Mhm. >> And the partly because of neutrality, we. wanted to be able be self-sufficient, but also because we we we wanted to have. different sources. So, I think this is a. mutual, you know, mutual dependency and. and kind of spreading these dependencies. are basically a good idea for Sweden and.

for other countries.