Keir Starmer on the threat to centrist politics

Prime Minister, thank you so much for. joining us on the insider. >> Really good to see you again. >> I wanted to start with a challenge that. faces you, but frankly also faces your. partners in Europe too, which is that. voters seem to be pretty fed up with. mainstream politicians. You see extreme. parties, parties on the on the populist. right rising in both places. Here, our. polling shows that, you know, reform is. far ahead of you. Chancellor Mattz has. said that he thinks it's the last chance. for the center in Germany. Do you think. it is the case here too? It's the that. you are the last chance for the center.

>> Yes. I think this is the real test of. centrist politics and I don't mean labor. versus tourism because to some extent. that's what we've had. It's a different. proposition and we have to show that. politics can deliver. We also have to. expose the right for what it is because. um the propositions of reform would tear. our country apart. Well, let's let's. let's focus on that. And before we get. on to how you can deliver, what is the. danger with a party like reform? Because. on the one hand, is it is it extremist.

policies or is it actually that they'd. be completely incompetent and the. country would fall apart? >> Well, where to begin? Um firstly, their. economics is pure fantasy. Um they've. just got billions and billions of pounds. that they say they will either spend or. save without any plans uh to do so. Secondly, um they do not want to live in the. tolerant, diverse country that we are. I'm proud that we're a diverse, tolerant, um compassionate, live and let.

live, um country, and I want to. represent all parts of that. Um with. reform, with their policy, which was to. reach in to people who've been lawfully. in this country for years and deport. them. That's their policy. They would. tear our country apart because these are. the people that work in our schools, in. our hospitals, that run businesses or. our neighbors. So, they would tear it. apart. But the other thing, just let me. absolutely um uh surface this at the.

moment. Obviously, there's a huge amount. of coverage in the news on Ukraine and. the delicacy of the situation there with. um the real um danger that Russia has. been aggressive for four years now. And. if Russia gains from that, it. destabilizes the whole of Europe. This. is the biggest moment for Europe for. decades at least when it comes to. conflict. Um the question then is are. you on the side of the Ukrainians or on. the side of the Russians? And what we've. got with reform is a is a party that is.

propin or Putin. >> neutral. Well, let let's just test that. because the UK and France and now. Germany are leading the coalition of the. will. That is about 35 countries that. are there drawing up plans to help. defend and secure the peace in Ukraine. There is no way on earth that the UK. could be part of that configuration with. Nigel Farage as prime minister. their ex.

leader in Wales has just been convicted. of pro-Russia bribes uh and got a 10 and. a half year sentence that for taking. bribes that is a really serious sentence. and what does the leader of that party. do he doesn't want to investigate. uh how that came about there's a huge. deal of concern about pro-Russian. interference in our democracy which is. for real you know and so there has to. investig.

would not be able to work with European. partners because they wouldn't trust a. party that is Putin um positive um and. has pro-Russian links. All of that falls. away uh with reform. um we would tear. apart our country with their. propositions for um not actually um.

respecting the tolerant diverse country. that we are. Um and they've got no ideas. on the economy whatsoever. And my worry. is, and this is how history tells us, is. that a right-wing proposition like that. with fantastical ideas leaning towards. Russia, um, if it gets into power, it. will find that its policies don't work, and it won't become more progressive. It. won't nudge towards the center. It'll be. go to the right, to the right, to the. right. We've not faced that in this.

country uh, ever um, in this form. And. it's a it is the political fight of our. times and we have to win that political. fight. >> You spoke earlier this week and you. talked about the relationship with the. EU and you were asked today in fact um. about why not go back into the customs. union if you're focused on growth. It's. surely a no-brainer to do that. Why why. do you stick with this red line when. it's so obviously the right thing to do. from the economy's perspective?

>> Well, the first thing to say is we are. moving a lot closer to the EU. We had a. fundamental reset. phytoanitary. I mean, very small ball. economically. Good thing to do. >> Really good thing to do. I mean, if. you're a supermarket or you're wanting. to trade um food or if you're um trading. your fish or drink into the um into. Europe, it makes a massive difference. also on um electricity, on carbon. I. mean, it was very wide ranging reset. with the EU. But we do have to accept.

that we did have a vote on whether to be. in or out the EU in 2026 and the and it. was a fair democratic vote. Now I don't. think the deal we got after it was a. good deal and we need to to make it. better. I rail against the promises that. were made by those who are advocating. that we should leave which were promises. which were wild promises that were never. going to be fulfilled. But we do have to. accept that we went through that. referendum. >> But is that going to set policy forever. more? Like if you have red lines forever.

more, we will never be able to change. anything because of a a referendum that. was almost a decade ago. >> Part of the reset with the EU that we. have, I think, successfully navigated. the last eight the the the relationship. between the UK and Europe has changed. hugely under this government. I think. everybody acknowledges that. Um we tried. between 2016 and 2024 in the general. election um the idea that if you were uh. rude, aggressive, abusive,

disrespectful, you would get a better. deal and better relationships with the. EU. It failed palpably. We're in a much. better position. We're a trusted partner. again and as a result of that, lots of. countries are looking to do more trade. um with us. But part of the reason in a. sense we've been able to reset is. because both on the European side, the. EU side and on our side and um this we. touched on this in the discussion just. earlier today. We're no longer arguing. about who was right and whether 2016 was.

right or wrong. We've tried that for the. best part of a decade. Now what we're. doing is saying given where we are um. how do we now make the best of this? How. do we move forward? that mindset has. helped the reset. Um, and therefore. going back to the old arguments isn't. actually where the EU is. I don't have I. mean, when I have discussions with other. EU leaders, they're not saying to me, what about the customs union? >> If thatcher was break the mold, what is. the what is the star bumper sticker? And. we have to um be absolutely clear and.

determined on our mission of national. renewal. Renewing our country, understanding our country for what it. is, which is a a a a society of. reasonable, pragmatic, compassionate. people who would actually help each. other out if they had half the chance to. do so. We're not a divisive country. We. do believe in let uh live and let live. That is who we are. understanding that. but renewing our country with our values. so that people feel proud of their.

place, their community and their. country. Uh which we've lost along the. way and in the end answering three basic. questions at the next election. Am I. better off? Um are my public services. running better which will be I think the. NHS will be the proxy for that. Do I. feel more safe and secure than I did. before? They are the issues that we will. face at the election. But the reason it. is as significant a moment is because um. we've traditionally gone between labor. and Tory governments for decades. Obviously um we are now in a different.

political fight. This is going to be. Labor versus reform. Reform is a. right-wing proposition which will do. huge damage to our uh country, to our. society, to our global standing um and. destroy much of our country. That is a. different battle. And you know, I often. say, you know, I'm again, I'm pragmat I. want a Labor government. I'm leading a. Labor government. I'm proud of the. change Labor governments bring about. Um, but if there is a Conservative. government, I can sleep at night. If.

there was a right-wing government in the. United Kingdom, that would be a. different proposition. And we have to. prove between now and the next election. um that um progressive national renewal. patriotism uh central um centrist. politics can meet the challenges of the. day because just like France and Germany. and other countries across Europe if we. fail that test this country is going to. move to the right in a way that um many. of us think would challenge um the very.

essence of who we are as a nation. progressive national renewal patriotism. It doesn't exactly slip off the tongue, but I guess it's close to a bumper. sticker. >> Well, >> I mean, I I say this not entirely. facitiously because I think people need. something to grab on to. I think they're. really one of the reasons you are doing. so poorly in the polls is that people. don't have a sense of where it is you're. trying to take the country and they. don't have a sense of the passion that. I've just heard.