Is ICE a threat to American democracy?

Trump has been um throughout the year, only a year by the way, I can't believe. it's only been a year that he's been in. office, had this extraordinary frenzy of. activity across all different areas of. American life. And he has tried to exert. his power, you know, in the economic. sphere over tariffs and taking stakes in. companies. He has tried to exert his. pressure over universities and private. institutions. He's tried to assert his. power in any number of ways. The video. of state power that is so over-the-top, you know, switch the light on, lights. on, this is a big deal of having agents.

s uh shoot an unarmed nurse in the back. is something that you just can't ignore. So, is this is this a is this a is this. an activity that prompts, you know, a. tactical retreat just from uh. immigration enforcement in Minneapolis? Does it prompt a bigger change in his. immigration agenda? I don't think that. we should expect a huge pivot from this. administration. I think the more. interesting question is whether the rest. of America, Congress, courts, business,

other leaders in civil society take a. different approach to the administration. both on this policy but full stop. You. know, is this is this an administration. that requires, you know, a Congress that. is not supine? Is this an administration. uh that that should have business. leaders speaking up rather than looking. after their self-preservation over. principle? I think that that is the big. question for me in 2026 as I look to. what comes next. So is this is this the. pivotal moment where the basically the.

broad institutions of democracy kind of. wake up and say actually we need to. >> Ed you and I have have this. [clears throat] conversation so often. about how do we react with you know we. don't normalize the absolutely abnormal. but we also don't freak out about. everything that President Trump says or. every small and ultimately less. important action he does. Where on that. balance are the events of the last two. weeks for you? Is this as as Charlotte. suggests to you also an absolutely. pivotal moment? >> Uh I think it is because.

the most important power government has. is its monopoly on violence. How how a. government uses violence against its own. people is the fundamental test of its. nature. Uh I'd say an even more kind of. pointed test than the way that uh the. government uses the courts, but that's. probably the closest comparison. So I. think you know as Charlotte said one of. the reasons why this. struck home to so many Americans is.

because I think people have a sense of. that if you can't trust your government. not to shoot you and then not to hold. the people who who've shot you into. account then you're all all at risk. That's why I think this is this is a. moment unlike lots of others. We've we. rewritten about all sorts of things, you. know, going after J. Pal and all those. things are shocking themselves, the. tariffs, but this is this kind of goes. to the nub of it. The nub of Trump's. relationship to power, his respect for. other people's rights. And that's why I. think it's so interesting. >> It's an argument that you put very well.

I'm going to do a little bit of. gratuitous flattery in our cover leader. this week, which I I mean, I thought Ed. wrote it and was really excellent um in. laying out just what the stakes were. We've also asked you a slightly. different question, but one about the. stakes, which is we asked you, we pulled. you whether ICE poses you thought ICE. posed a serious threat to American. democracy. And I was very struck by the. results. Let's just have a look at those. results. >> 92% of our viewers and and by the way, more than 7,000 of you responded, which.

is a very large number even by the high. standard. >> We're often a 5050 place. This is a 98%. of our viewers think ICE poses a serious. threat to American democracy. Uh in the. light of that, do any of you brave. enough to disagree? >> I don't think it's ICE that poses the. threat. I think it's it is a tool by. which Donald Trump poses a threat. And. you know what matters is not are there. agents in a a large hastily assembled um.

paramilitary force who will do terrible. things. What matters is are they held to. account. So the question here is not, you know, do we fire people or move. people around at the top. It's the. message to ICE agents. If you kill. someone, if you are filmed killing. someone in a way that is really hard to. explain other than murder, are you. prosecuted? You know, or does the the. federal government stonewall the attempt. to prosecute? And until, you know, ICE. agents who have committed crimes are.

actually prosecuted and if they are. found guilty of murder, sent to prison. in the way that Derek Schovin was for. for killing George Floyd. Unless that. happens, the message to ICE agents is. you have the authority from on top to do. what you like to the opponents of the. administration. And that that's the. test. I I think one of the questions. we've got to ask ourselves is how much. um we can all depend on public opinion.

being mobilized as as the as the thing. that that makes the difference. I mean. if if what Charlotte says happens and um. the courts and Congress. um and in indeed actually um bureaucrats. and and Republican politicians respond. to this then it's kind of done its job. But I don't you can you depend upon. opinion polls and um you know social. media outrage in order to restrain a.

president who is bent on doing something. else. I don't think you can. I I think. public opinion in the end it operates. decisively once every four years when. there's a vote or in the midterms. possibly. But ultimately you can't run a. country through public opinion. You need. to get the institutions to respond too. And that's something I think we need to. examine. Charlotte, you're itching to. come in. >> Well, no, just I I said that this is. what they should do. I have zero. confidence that is what will actually. happen. I mean, Congress has presented. very little evidence in the past year.

that they um have a sense that their job. is to serve rather than their job is to. protect their own salary. But I do think. you're absolutely right that public. opinion uh or protests, they're doing. what they can, but then it's up to. leaders in in government to respond. Um, I do think, you know, if you look. forward to the the people in this. administration, there are a bunch of. things that we're looking for, you know, prosecutions of those individuals as you. as you outlined, which by the way is. such a low bar for um how government.

should work, but that's where we are. Um, but I also think will there be. continued changes within the. administration? So long as Steven Miller. is there, I don't really see a big shift. for this administration. >> Well, let's go through those in the time. that we've got left. Let's go through. the areas where we think there might be. change and what how we think this will. play out in the rest of this year. And. Steve, let's start with you. Firstly, is. this classic Trump tactical retreat but. no big strategic change either in. immigration policy or in his broader.

assertion of executive authority? >> I would bet on the latter. I think we. have a clear record of his intentions. and his actions uh that overwhelms the. tactical events of the last few days. First of all, um he has deployed. immigration enforcement agents way. beyond the mission of immigration. enforcement. He conflates them often. with uh crime fighting crime and and uh. bringing order to chaotic cities that. are perhaps not as chaotic as as he.

describes them most of the time. He has. spoken of immigration enforcement in the. context of retribution and he's deployed. these immigration agents primarily to. democratic states and cities. Uh and he. also um seems to have gotten to the idea. that these uh armed forces, the ICE and. Border Patrol uh agents, they are. directly answerable to him in a way that. military forces and national guards are. not. He has I think been frustrated by.

his deployments of National Guard uh. whether federalized or local to cities. because they have their own independent. chain of command. They have their own uh. orders and codes of military justice. that they have to follow and they don't. have powers of arrest. This does look. like the kind of paramilitary. organization that Robert describes. It's. already been used for purposes that. exceed uh it strict mandate to enforce. immigration laws. And so I don't see. that part of Donald Trump's view of his.

power, of his political strategy um. receding. I think he'll uh he'll pull. back for a while and find another way to. pursue it.