How would Europe’s populist right govern?

Okay, so the picture is poor economy, indebted, low growth, loss of trust. Let's now look at the kind of attraction. of of the populace. And it and it starts. with that sense of completely turning a. new page, I think. So, the questions I have, the first. question I have about them is. are they. do they represent the past or do they. represent the future? And And Bardella. is a very interesting example of this. I. mean, he's 30 years old. He's got 2. million followers on TikTok. And let's.

look at one of his posts. [Applause]. [Music]. They are actually it's a very young gang. of people around him. Now, Sophie, when. you and Zanny went to see him, what what. do you think? Was it the past or was he. the future? What's so striking and I I. think Zanny and I discussed this. afterwards. after seeing him last week is that his. his sort of discourse is now incredibly.

upbeat. It's about the future. He talks. about AI. He talks about cloud. computing. He's got a whole kind of talk. as a pro-growth discourse, which is. which is astonishing in many respects. And I think the reason that that works. for people, it's not just young people. It's interesting in that clip that was. very much the young people. And he's. he's a bit of a celebrity. But it's and. we have, you know, yet to see whether. that really translates into votes, but. he is popular. Is the sort of authenticity. He's been. coached to smile and he does it on cue, you know, almost in conversations. And.

it He used to be a very timid timid shy. teenager. But to me, it's the sort of. it's authenticity that works in. politics. It's hard to define. You know. it when you see it and he's got it. And. And I mean, Farage has that as well in. spades, right? He's a very different. character. Um and he's much older and. he's of a different generation. But he. similarly Actually, he didn't have to be. taught how to smile. We We tried to find. a picture of him not smiling and it was. really hard. >> We did find one eventually. It's good. though. Sasha, I was going to ask you. about Farage because in his speech there. was it seemed to me a real tension. >> Mhm. Um he was at once saying he wanted.

the UK to be like Singapore on terms, deregulated, big role for the city. At. the same time, he is harking back to. a kind of racially much purer UK, a UK. that's kind of got old conservative. socially conservative values. And his. electorate is quite socially. conservative. So, how how do you. reconcile these two bits? Well, I mean, that's what makes him such a successful. politician, Ed. Like you don't logically.

and yet he manages. So, the speech you. mentioned indeed in the in the city of. London this week, he he. he managed to sound like quite a. fiscally sensible grown-up, which for us. is a is a change. >> So, let's listen to a bit of that. because he he does something else there. which I think is also a characteristic. of these parties, which is as they seem. to get closer to power, they also. moderate. This is an example of that. We. want to cut taxes, of course we do. But we understand substantial tax cuts,

given the dire state of debt and our. finances, are not realistic at this. current moment in time. How big a change is that? Well, I mean, Labour will have looked at that and. gone, oh, you know, this this was our. big card. Our big card was to say he's. fiscally irresponsible. He's got all. these pipe dreams. I mean, other than. all the migration stuff. He's got all. these pipe dreams that are completely. unfunded. We have written very. critically about that and done the sums. and said he's going to totally tank the. bond market. This is smart. Well, the. the problem is it's all kind of snake.

oil. Listen to this. You know, they say, yeah, we're going to fix everything, but. don't really explain how they're going. to do it. >> And And Zanny, Alice Weidel, I mean, Goldman Sachs banker. She This is This. is not person I imagined to be to be. running the AfD. So, very very interesting. This was the. first time I met Alice Weidel yesterday. Unfortunately, the conversation was on. background, so I can't tell you exactly. what she said, but she was again she. she appears extremely friendly. She is. an economist subscriber. Her office had.

a whole a whole pile of economists. there. Um and she wanted to portray a party. that was a normal party. She was very. much trying to to portray it as such and. we had a really interesting conversation. about, you know, everything. All her. views on all kinds of things. But I. think there is an important difference. between the AfD and the other two. Not. only that the Germans have this. frontmauer, which is the firewall where. nobody will work with them. But. actually, it is a party that still has. some seriously seriously extremist. people in it. I mean, you know, people.

very much beyond the pale of liberal. democratic politics. Uh and she has not. They have not been booted out of the. party. They are still in the party. It's. a broad tent, but there are certainly a. number of them who are nothing other. than sort of hardline very very. dangerous extremists. And the other is. if you look at. the manifesto that the AfD AfD. had in the election campaign earlier. this year, it was still pretty extreme. on various I mean, you know, calling to. leave the euro, a very, you know, it was.

it was not a sort of particularly, you. know, moderated set of demands. Are they. going to moderate enough to get the most. growth possible? And I think there are. there are two parts to that. One is the. obvious area of growth is Europe. And in. European integration, deepening capital. markets, free market single market. reform. But both of these parties, AfD and RN, are not very comfortable with that. So,

how how how does how do we feel about um. you know, their their willingness to to. compromise on the subject of Europe in. order to get growth. Zanny, start with. you. I think their view of what you get to. grow is completely different, Ed. I I. don't think they think of it in the way. that you've just described it. For them, Europe is the problem. The European. Union and its regulations are the. problem. Now, that doesn't mean in the. case of Bardella and and the RN that. they want to ditch the euro or that they. want to ditch the EU, but they see it. very much as a an.

you know, a sort of 1980s 1990s. yesterday's organization that is kind of. smothering Europe in red tape and. preventing it from achieving its. potential. And in Germany, ditto. And. so, I think that for them, they would. say, actually, we do want to get growth. We do want to allow our national economy. to flourish. And the reason it can't is. because of this whole problem with. Europe. So, they would redefine the. challenge completely differently. With, of course, quite serious consequences. for the functioning of Europe if they.

were in power. But I I don't think it's. sort of right to say would they get on. with the program cuz they just they. think the program of the EU right now is. is the problem. The idea of getting. agreement between them and the rest of. the EU countries to do any of those. things seems, you know, vanishingly. remote. The opposite will happen. They'll just be arguing and fighting. over everything. Sophie. Yes, I mean, the way I see it is that if you had the. RN in power in France, you know, a. founder member of the European Union, key partner for Germany, the two. countries that essentially when they.

agree, things move and when they don't, nothing happens. If they were in power. in France, you would see almost every. element of policy, all the sorts of. things that we believe in that you've. identified, they would be challenging it. and trying to unpick it. So, yes, as. Zanny said quite rightly, they don't. anymore want to leave. There's no talk. of Frexit. There's certainly no talk of. pulling out of the euro. But every. single policy point, I mean, from, you. know, participation in the EU electricity. pricing mechanism or but paying into the.

EU budget, all of these things they want. to start picking apart. So, you would. have a kind of an operator, a power, a. major power in the heart of Europe. trying to pick it all apart. And that. that's what makes it dangerous. >> If you want to grow, I I understand what. you're saying, Zanny, about European. regulation. And it was obviously a big. theme of Brexit. But these countries are. are part of the euro. They're integrated. into Europe in all sorts of. important regulatory ways. If you start. saying, we just don't like this, you. know, we're going to go our own way on.

this regulation. Because they're already. half in. But that just causes a feel of. Brexit. Yeah, I mean, I I think they. didn't they didn't do any of the things. they said they were going to do. Zanny, Zanny, go ahead. Go ahead. When I hear you say that, I think and I. was just I'd be thinking, what would. Bardella say to that? And they would. basically say, look, we need to shake up the EU so that. it works better for France. And I. suspect the AfD would say the same. It's It's that they. they think that the shake-ups that they. will do will improve things for their.

country. So, Bardella was very clear, you know, no longer would the It's not. reasonable to have the current power. electricity system because basically. France is supporting Germany. In fact, he said the EU is an association in. defense of Germany's interests. He sees. it the EU as an entire organization. that's basically set up. And I think the. Germans, frankly, the German populist. nationalists see the mirror image. So, one thing that's really struck me having. seen several two of them now is that, you know, we talk about the populist. nationalists as a sort of collective.

They are so diametrically opposed to. each other that actually you would have. the greatest chaos was if you if you had. them near or close to power in more than. one country because they're they're, you. know, the the French, the RN, I think. thinks of Germany is the real problem. Germany is the reason that the EU has. messed up for France. And And one of the. other things that that he said is worth. citing and and Sophie, correct me if I. got it a bit wrong, but he he basically. laid out a fiscal path. You know, he. said, yes, we have to have spending. cuts. Yes, we have to have a fiscal. path, but we essentially can't cope with.

the amount of debt we've got to repay. And he basically said to us that he. would go to the ECB and ask the ECB to. help with it in the same way that they'd. helped with the euro crisis. It was very. striking that that's the direction I. think they're going to push. [Music].