Could this be the end of the West as we know it?

What is the future of the transatlantic. alliance and NATO? So, feel free to. speculate at this point. Um Adam, I want. to start with you. How lasting is the. damage that's been done this week? >> It's so hard to judge. I think we've. we've talked about some of the positive. parts of this week, the Europeans. getting a bit of spine and being able to. act a bit quicker. But I think. profoundly, it has done a great deal of. damage. The the willingness to trust the. Americans even post-Trump has ratcheted. down, if you can ratchet down. It's. really reduced.

uh the trust that there was. And I don't. think anyone would be rational in. believing that America will always be. there in in the way that it was there. before. So, I think it has done profound. damage to the transatlantic relations. >> I just want to to to reinforce Adam's. point, um uh highlight the the a quote. that I used from a former um a European. ambassador to NATO. Um very level-headed. person, and and I I can't quote them by. name, but but what we ended this our. briefing on was saying, "I hope European. allies are looking to uh uh seize NATO's.

structures, headquarters, commands, communications uh in the event that. America goes down this path until. America rights itself." And that's a. sign of the times, as Friedrich Merz has. commented just today ago that said, "We. should at least try to save NATO." And. the wording there tells you everything. >> I agree. >> about the sense of desperation well. beyond what it was last Munich with J.D. Vance attacking Europe. >> I do think, to to put a sort of another. silver lining on it, I think what we're.

seeing now is once again, in the short. term, this is a real hit to the. transatlantic alliance, absolutely. But. in the longer term, if this is a moment. for Europe to have a kind of galvanizing. moment, even stronger than last year, when in the aftermath of J.D. Vance in. Munich, of course, that was one of the. reasons that accelerated what was going. on in Germany in terms of rearming. If. this is another kind of kick up the butt. moment for Europe to really accelerate, not just its rearmament, but its working. together, the way it procures its. weapons, its economic reforms, all of.

that. Then we may look back, you know, in 10 years, 15 years from now and say, "Actually, you know, that President. Trump, he was the key to Europe really. getting its act together." I hate to say. that, but I think there is a real. possibility that that could be the case. >> I guess the other question is sort of. how long how long Europe has for this. And. to my mind, a lot of that depends on on. who comes next. In a under President. Rubio, um or President Newsom, does this shift.

begin to shift back? Does it Does Europe. have more time? Is it How How much. difference does that all make? >> I thought when you said who comes next, it's also on the European side. Who. comes next here? Is it Prime Minister. Farage? Is it. >> obviously has an effect, but just just. just. >> On the American side. Well, my my. concern is that this continues. post-Trump. That it's not just about. Donald Trump being in the White House, that uh if you have J.D. Vance, for. example, he has. even more than Trump pushed the the. derision of Europe, the attacks on the. >> different, isn't he? >> Rubio's a different figure, and I think.

he you can see his focus on the Western. Hemisphere, for example. He's a more. rational, strategic thinker, I believe, than than the others. But I don't know. whether Rubio has the chance of of. muscling aside Vance. I would right now. think that Vance would have a better. opportunity than Rubio. >> But as we've always pointed out here, this isn't just a question of the benign. feelings of the US president. If a war. breaks out over Taiwan or or somewhere. else in Asia, um the effect could be the. same, which is US incapacity, incapability to devote the same.

resources. Because many of the things. that it provides to Europe and we need, air defenses, intelligence, refueling, um major naval assets, submarines, those. are exactly what would be drawn away to. a Pacific conflict. So, even the most. pro-European benign president on the. planet, and we're not going to get that. anymore in America, uh even they would. be forced to dilute the US commitment to. Europe in a situation where these other. pressing demands pulled America away. So, it would be a tragedy if we slow. down in Europe on the false assumption.

we have a bit of a respite. >> Zanny, how much is this a Trump effect. and how much is this a US US effect? >> I think it's both. Trump exaggerates, exacerbates, accelerates, and makes it. all the more painful, but I think I. should agree with Shashank this is a. broader shift. The old world order, Ed, is over. We have to stop park latching. about it. You and I I hope none of us. do, but lots of people in Europe do. They look back and they want to. recreate, slow things down, slow the. change down, recreate the old. It is. over. It is time to start thinking about.

how to build the new, and I think that's. where the big focus needs to be for. Europe. Not So, I'm less concerned about. thinking is it going to be President. Rubio? Is it going to be Vance? It's more is Europe going to move fast. enough to be prepared for this new. world?