A full-length interview with Tucker Carlson | The Economist

Tucker Carson, thank you for joining me. Zanny  Minton Beddoes. Very nice to see you again after. what, 20 years when I appeared on your PBS show.  22 years. 22 years. You were the uh idiosyncratic. contrarian conservative and I guess I was a  sensible centrist then. Nothing has changed by. those measures. Uh you are now probably the most  vocal critic of the Iran war on the right. And. I wanted to start with that because you've been  you've been pretty clear in your criticism. You. called Operation Epic Fury absolutely disgusting  and evil the first day. You also said that uh.

it was a war that could change world history. It  will. And I wanted to start there because I wanted. to help you help me understand how you think this  war will change world history. You'll control I. mean control of the Persian Gulf is what 20% of  the world's energy. That's what's at stake. That's. why it's a that's the main reason geopolitically  it's a relevant part of the world because those. seven countries the six Gulf states in Iran  control once again probably 22% of the world's.

energy and huge parts of the world including huge  parts of Asia including our critical American. allies in Asia which would include or really  be limited to Japan Taiwan South Korea are. wholly dependent on it because they don't have the  resources domestically. So who controls that and. the aperture on the eastern end the now famous  straits of Hormuz and also the entry to to the. Red Sea like that's the same as controlling a lot  of the world and so that's what's at stake and so.

we'll know who won or lost by who controls that  by the end that's the only measure it's not the. Iranian nuclear program please it's about access  and control so I agree with that and I've we at. the economist have been very skeptical of this  war. But you have already said that this would. hand control of the Middle East to China.  Why do you think that? He out. First of all,

I don't want that. I don't think it's good for the  United States. I'm American and I think the US has. been an imperfect and increasingly short-sighted  steward of its position as like. But I think there. are ways to pull back from empire. There are  ways to enter into power sharing agreements. between east and west which I think would be the  wisest course at this point. But just let me push. you why you think it would hand it to China. It's  it's just think about just because yes there are.

very strong economic relationships but China is a  net energy importer. So right now Iran is actually. in a stronger position visa v China than it was  before because it controls the straits of Hormuz. China hasn't shown any interest in having a  military presence of the sort that the US has. It has one, you know, one very small military  outpost. So, I'm not at all sure China wants. to take on that role. So, I think when you say  it's handing control of the Middle East to China, I'm not sure that you can really sort of Well,  this is and with respect, this is the worldview.

that squandered Western dominance. The idea that  every No, it it is though. It's like, well, they. don't have military bases. Well, maybe you don't  want military bases. What you want is control. What you want is an outcome that benefits you and  that minimises threats to you. That's the goal. And so it's not obvious that they want to replace,  you know, the fifth fleet base in Bahrain, for example, with a Chinese naval base. I I don't  know. What they want is an advantage in commerce, number one, because they understand that  ultimately that's what control really is. If.

you're getting to the point where you're having  to exert force, you're displaying weakness. And. for the purposes of this and really of life, the  only question is who settles it. It's very easy. to start a conflict. A drunk teenager can punch  you in the face. And you think China's going to. settle this? I don't want China. Let me tell you,  I think right now the biggest winner is Russia, which is a country that you've never mentioned.  Actually, to my knowledge, in the last 10 days, clearly Russia is winging from the huge jump  in oil prices. Russia is the one place where.

in the short term supply can be increased already.  Treasury Secretary has lifted sanctions. I'm aware. of all of that. So if someone says to me who's  the big winner right now I think the big winner is. Russia. Depend what you know what's your timeline  short term for sure but you know over time a a. country with you know 150 million people is not  going to run the world or even the west. It can. it can have substantial influence in its region  and that's exactly what Russia is. Europe and. the United States made a massive miscalculation by  pretending we could change that. We can't. It's a.

civilisation. It can't be dislodged, but it's not  going to run the world and it's not going to set. the terms for global trade. It's definitely  benefiting. The question right now is how. do you resolve the inherent conflict between the  United States and China? Period. And we know that. from Wikipedia just by looking at gross domestic  product. Who's where's the economic power? I just. I don't see any appetite from China to come in and  say we're going to sort this out. I don't think.

there is one at all right now. So then how does  this end? Well, ultimately it ends because China. has such obvious invested interests in the region  and because there's such a massive advantage in. being the settler of a conflict. But let's just  move on to Israel because I think that's where, you know, the central point of your argument  is, which is that you have argued that this. is a war at Israel's behest. And I think  you've argued, if I've got this right, you made the point that Israel was doing this  because it wanted the United States out of the. region. Can you just talk me through that logic?  Well, let me just go to your first point. I wasn't.

arguing that the United States embarked on this  at Israel's behest. I was noting it. And the. secretary of state has said that, the speaker of  the house has said that. The president of states. has said it multiple times. Now, there's a kind  of revisionism in progress where we say, "Well, we never said that." Well, you did say that and  it's on video. Also, you know, I was talking to. a lot of people while this uh decision was being  made and I can confirm what they've already said. in public. Yes. You're watching my interview  with Tucker Carlson from March 2026. If you.

want to watch our other interviews, including with  Steve Bannon and Benjamin Netanyahu, subscribe to. The Economist by clicking the link above. Now,  back to the interview. United States was moved. to act because the prime minister of Israel said  to the president of the United States, I'm acting. Just hold that thought because I I want to come  to that because I'm not at all sure that I find. that completely convincing. But let's just stick  with the convincing. It's true. Let's just The. president said let's just The president says a lot  of things that are not true. Let's just stick with. uh the argument of why you think Israel would want  to do this so that the United States gets out of.

the Middle East. The first thing you need to do in  order to understand why people are doing something. is to think about the world through their eyes.  So let's just do that from the perspective of. Israel for one moment. This is a nuclear armed  country, the only officially nuclear armed country. in the region that has uh an inherent drive to  territorial expansion and to for more resources. That doesn't make it different from any other  country, imperial Japan or any other country in. a similar situation. This is an ascendant country  with a leader who sees himself as a global leader.

as he said last week. So what constrains  them in that? Well, a couple of things, three things really. One, most obviously is  Iran which is a counterbalance to Israeli power, right? And also a funer of all kinds of regional  problems for them and Hamas and Hezbollah and all. the rest, the Houthis. So you got to you got to  do something about Iran. you need a new regime or. you probably just need to do what they have done  in all these other countries, cause chaos. Two, the Gulf States, of course, the GCC, the six Gulf  monarchies, because they're the biggest investors.

in the United States and they're the producers  of all this energy. You cannot number one allow. them to unite in any kind of like Gulf NATO and  two you have to reduce their power. You've got. your own new gas field. So it's like and you've  got Azarbaian. So it's like you don't need them. And three, you have to get the United States  out because the United States has for 80 years.

constrained you. You're looking at me. This  is like the most obvious thing I think I've. ever said. You're looking at me like I'm speaking  I'm I'm Yeah. I I honestly I mean I'm not quite. speaking Swahili, but I'm listening to that and  I when I first heard you say it on your podcast, I thought, does he really believe this? and you  clearly do and you've clearly explained it. But. I I I find that explanation [music] very hard to  marry with what seems to me to be the reality of. a country of 10 million people that has had  since its founding the United States as its.

patron and ally, an absolutely essential ally. And  I think actually if you you know read read Prime. Minister Netanyahu's autobiography his entire  political career has been based on understanding. the importance of US support. I find it hard to  believe that a country would want to kick out that. support to go it alone or to you know go it with  India which is I think what you said in another. in another podcast. I just I don't I don't see the  logic of that. Does it have a choice? Well that's.

a different thing you said because it wanted  the United States. has no choice because and. I'll tell you why. I know a lot about this topic  cuz it's domestic American politics and I read. the polling every day and we're going to come  on to that. Well, I'm just going to say it now, which is support for Israel and the United States  has collapsed. Absolutely. But but no, let me let. me finish. It's collapsed and the Israelis who  are acting in what they perceive to be their own. interest are very serious about this question.  And I'm not guessing, but let me just say I I'm. not guessing about this. And they understand that  this is the last generation of American leaders.

who will support them financially and with defence  guarantees uncritically, which is to say without. really constraining their territorial ambitions.  They know that cuz they're not dumb. And it's. coming to an end. And that's one of the reasons  that the prime minister of Israel went to the. White House seven times in one year and was pretty  open about what he was doing there. I'm advocating. for a regime change war against Iran. Now, if you  were hoping to continue the relationship unto the. generations, you probably wouldn't say that in  public. But if you decided this is coming to an.

end, there's nothing we can do. Let's get what  we can while we can, you would do that. Well, you could also conclude that you you thought Iran  posed an existential risk to you as a country, you may disagree with that, but you might think  that. And then you'd think actually I do actually. Existential in what sense? in the sense that you  have a regime in Iran that has called for death. to Israel, has never believed in Israel as a as a  Jewish homeland country and would rather not have. Israel there. Yeah, I think that is reasonable  analysis. I do think that that is part of it.

Yes. And I think that I think it is a reasonable  feeling for a lot of people in Israel to have, not just people in Lud or BB Netanyahu. I don't  think that justifies or makes sensible an attack. on Iran. But I think that is a reasonable and also  for me then you would therefore not you would want. to continue to have the support of your biggest  ally for as long as you could if you were planning. this war and if you were pushing your patron to  embark on this war to use its military to achieve. your ends which is exactly what's happened you  would think through what are the consequences of.

this and the first thing you would understand is  there's no support for this in the United States. zero. And there was just public polling on this.  So we know that there's no support for Americans. dying. This country, you know, the debt to GDP  ratio is so out of whack. We are totally out of. money. We can't afford it. And so you would know  that if this actually happened, people in the. United States would be mad at you. And there would  be ultimately calls to get out of the Middle East.

entirely. It would not be sustainable our presence  in the Middle East over time if you did this. You would also know that we had an operation in  June which they also forced. BB called on Monday. and said to the president of the United States,  I'm doing this this week. That's why we did it. And you could say that you can constrain you can  constrain Iran. You could live with this thing. that you fear. But instead, we're going to embark  on a war whose most likely outcome is chaos in. Iran. Well, can I just stop you there because you  are predicating this on the war being a failure.

and you could perfectly well reframe your argument  as being Prime Minister Netanyahu has long wanted, we know this, he said this in public, he said  this to everybody, want long wanted to have regime. change in Iran, but certainly to get rid of Iran's  nuclear capability. Absolutely pushed for that. It. is possible that he thought and thinks that that  can be done and that he convinced the president. that it could be done. And let's just move on  to this now because I think just can I just can. I just can I just ask this because this is really  important. I think you in your explanations you're.

making excuses for Israel then say but another  question of course you are because you started. this by saying that I'm trying to see the world  through the eyes. We're both we're both trying to. do that. with trying to analyze I think yes where  where things are going and key to your analysis. is that Israel in your view an expansionist Israel  pushed America into a war whose consequence would. be America leaving the region that's I think a  reasonable summary of what you've been saying and.

the destruction of the Gulf States well I think  that's a critical part of it so this is that's. your analysis Israel just bombed Qatar's gas field  today this morning so that's your analysis can. we just talk about the focus of Israel and Israel  driving the decision in the United States because. I think that's a key part of know about it. I know  I know you did. That's why I want to ask you about. it and you have argued to me just now and you've  argued a lot that Israel essentially hoodwinked. or persuaded or told President Trump what to do  against President Trump's better interests. And.

you know the president very well. You went to see  him as I understand several times before this. Do you really believe President Trump would be  bullied or pushed into doing something he didn't. want to do by Prime Minister Netanyahu? I love how  you've constrained the question. Um, let me tell. you what I do know and then you can characterise  it as as you wish. I I don't fully understand the. president's thinking as I don't understand any  other person's thinking fully. How could you? I.

can only tell you what I know to be true, which  is in June at the outset of the 12-day war, the. prime minister of Israel called the White House on  secure video conferencing into the situation room. and said, "We are moving this week against Iran's  nuclear facilities." And by the end of the week, by Thursday, he had and that was followed shortly  after by US backup, which was inevitable, right? because we have a defence guarantee implied  with Israel and we also have a lot of Was it.

inevitable? I mean, previous presidents have  said no. That's a very smart point. No, it was. not inevitable. Once Israel began its attacks  on Iran, that American involvement was yes, inevitable. But at the end of the 12 days, the  president said, "Bring those jets back." President. Trump has had agency over Prime Minister. That's  exactly what happened. Now, some of us argued this. is preparatory to a much larger effort that will  attempt to achieve what they sought to achieve.

the first time, which is regime change. And the  president, I believe, was fully aware, and if you. said it yourself, Israel wanted a different regime  in Iran. Okay? Why wouldn't they? They had no plan. for what that regime would be. That's a fact. I  don't think they've claimed they had a plan. They. just want chaos. They just don't want the people  in charge in charge. And if it breaks into a bunch. a constellation of countries and devolves into  an permanent ethnic civil war, that's fine with. them. By the way, you can deal with the refugee  crisis. Good luck. But that is all true what I've.

just said. Then we fast forward to this winter  and several more trips to Washington by Benjamin. Netanyahu. And once again, Benjamin Netanyahu  said to the White House, "We are going." Now, I happen to know this is true, but you don't need  to take my word for it because the president of. the United States said it. The secretary of state  said it. And then he went on to say on camera, we have all these assets in the Gulf. There  are hundreds of thousands of Americans in the. region. We have all these military bases and we  have energy. And then the speaker of the house,

Mike Johnson, also said it on camera. It's all  available on the internet. And this just happened. in the last two weeks. But do you not think the  president of the United States could have chosen. to say, "No, you're not." What? You know, and  that is the question. And I cannot answer that. question. But clearly that's important because  the the argument the argument that you are making. is that somehow this was foisted on the United  States. Making an argument. You are you've said. this again and again. It's not an argument. It's  an observation. I'm repeating what the president, secretary of state, and the speaker of the house.  The three most powerful people in the United.

States have said things that the president of the  United States says that do not merit being taken. at face value. I don't understand. The president  and the secretary of state Marco Rubio and the. speaker of the house Mike Johnson have all said  Israel was going first and so we went in because. we have critical interest in protecting Israel.  We have a critical interest in the Gulf and we. have critical interest in our bases. Like I don't  understand decision by the president of the United. States and the president of the United States  could have made a different decision. And let.

me let me suggest to you that there are other  reasons why the president of the United States. made this re one might have been hubris after the  success of the operation to remove I'm not sure. what we're arguing about. I I I mean because  because it m because the way you present this. and the way it is presented by many people is that  somehow a very powerful Israel and a very powerful. Jewish and Israeli lobby is pushing policies in  this administration. I'm not responsible I guess. for what other people say. I'm telling you what I  saw. and what the president and attorney attorney.

general secretary of state and the speaker  have all said publicly and what everyone who's. followed this knows because it's it's all out  there, okay? It's public source. Israel said, "We're going to move." And the United States  reacted by joining them and and then engaging. in a partnership, a military partnership. I  think it's the first time it's happened since. the Second World War. And there are all kinds of  problems that come down for that. But you raised. the correct question. That's not a slander. It's  not anti-semitism. That's what actually happened.

And so I don't know what to say. I don't write the  script. No, but do you think the United president. of the United States had agency in it? Well, of  course the president the president of the United. States denying that made a mistake in your view in  doing this. Well, of course I think that I've said. that. Let me just restate it. I'm not making an  argument that Israel said to the United States, we will go whether you want to or not. Okay,  that's been confirmed. That's an argument. I'm.

repeating what our leaders have already told us.  Your question is, well, isn't it still Trump's. fault because he made the decision to go along  with this? He allowed himself to go along with. this. Of course, he's the commander-in-chief.  And my argument would be that and has been to. him and to anyone else who will listen. That's the  moment when you constrain your ally and you say, "No, we pay for everything." I've said this a  hundred times and that's considered anti-semitic.

I haven't said anything about anti Well, I've  certainly been accused of that when I'm not in. any sense anti-semitic. I'm not even anti-Israel.  I'm pro America. And you cannot allow a, as I've said a hundred times, let me say it again.  You cannot allow a country of 9 million to make. decisions that are critical to a country of 350  million. That would be us. That's against nature. It's wrong and it's against America's interest  as this war is. And so of course it's in Can I. just stop you there because you said you cannot  allow a country of 9 million to make decisions. for a country. Correct. But you are implying then  that the Israel did make decisions for the United.

States. And my point is simply that there is much  more agency in the United States. I understand. this is a very important point and let me just say  it again. Trump made the decision and I have said. I said then I said before it happened to him and  I'll say it again now with him not in the room. I think you have to say no. Okay. I think you  have to say no. You have to say no. What did he. say to you? You know, I'm not it's not up to,  you know, I'm not going to characterize what.

he said. Why do you think he didn't say no? The  short answer is I don't know. And if I did know, I would just say so. In your copious podcasting  about this in the last two weeks, you have made. the argument very strongly that the United States  has been pushed into something not in its own. national interest by pressure from Israel and the  lobbying power of Israel. Well, it has been. The. question is whether the person who makes the  ultimate decision who would be President Trump. should have pushed back. That's it. Of course.  Of course. Bush. Trump should have pushed back.

as previous presidents have done to some extent,  some very limited extent. George W. Bush didn't. push back. We went up in the Iraq war and now  everyone pretends, oh, that was had nothing to. do with Israel. I was there. I was talking to  Bush. That's not true. That's a lie. And that's. why it's so important from my perspective to say  out loud what is true before history is rewritten. and disappeared. And it's lying that gets us here  because we say, "Oh, no, no, no. Lobbying efforts.

had no effect." really we say that about  our pharmaceutical policy. No, everybody. understands that every policy a large government  makes including ours is influenced by various. stakeholders who were affected by that policy.  But this is the one error we have to be like no. it had it had nothing to do with the fact that  his biggest donors were pushing him to do this. or the BB visited seven times in one year. Are you  joking? I'm not going to play along with the lies. anymore. I don't hate Jews. I don't hate Israel.  I love my country. This has happened yet again.

I can give you a whole list of previous times  where it's happened and I think we need to know. what happened so we don't hurt ourselves further.  I am not saying don't blame Israel. I think Israel. has its own national interest in Israel. We're  certainly pushing for things. But I think there is. more agency and therefore more responsibility with  the president of the United States and the Trump. administration. Disagree. He represents me. I live  here. That's but that's important because in the. way Israel pushed him into this now he shouldn't  have gone along with it he should have pushed back.

but to pretend that Trump woke up one morning  it's like I think I'm not suggesting that to. be clear Israel pushed him the prime minister by  the way it's not even just it's not Israel there. are a lot of people who disagree in Israel I know  some of them it was the prime minister of Israel. Benjamin Netanyahu who pushed our president into  doing this and I hope this is the last time that. Netanyahu or any foreign head of state will ever  push an American president to do something that. hurts America. Well, let's talk about that because  I think we may be, as you yourself said earlier,

at a tipping point in terms of the rapid decline  within the United States for support for Israel. And you see it you see it hug and you've seen it  for several years on the Democratic side. You're. now seeing it on the conservative side and you're  seeing a collapse amongst younger people. I'm not. telling you anything you don't know. How is that  how quickly is that going to change the politics. of Israel in the United States? I mean, it's  hard to know. There doesn't seem to be a direct. connection, not just on Israel or foreign policy,  but on almost any issue between what our leaders.

believe and do and what the public thinks  and wants. the public begins to believe in. their frustration at their declining standard  of living for example or declining birth rates. or whatever it is that's getting worse and a lot  is that there's no way to use legitimate means to. change it. Voting doesn't work. If they believe  that then they will by definition find other. ways and those ways are destructive and I don't  want that. So I think it's very important that a. government even a non-democracy even a monarchy  respond to the concerns of the population.

You can ignore them for a while. If you ignore  them for too long, you get overthrown. Let's. let's talk though a little bit more about how  this declining support for Israel, which I. think is one of the most significant political  shifts in the United States in recent years, how is that shaping the MAGA movement? I mean, are  you now seeing I when I look at the opinion polls, I'm told that there's 100% support amongst MAGA  or 95% support for the war. Uh, on the other hand, you're clearly a man with a large number of  followers who is making a very, very different.

argument. I was standing next to Trump at his  house when he got elected. I've known him a. long time. I talked to him a lot. So, you know,  I I don't, you know, I don't fully understand. what MAGA is, but I know that the core promise of  the Trump political movement, make America great. again, was America first, and it was articulated  by him repeatedly at every campaign stop for 10. years. So everyone in America knows this. I think  everyone globally knows this. The core of this.

movement was the idea that you would and we could  debate about how you do it. But you would try to. put the interest of your country at the center  of every calculation about how you manage your. country and how you interact with the world. It's  not it's the single most obvious and single most. popular political concept ever devised. Do you  think Donald Trump has betrayed America first? I think that this war is something that he  promised he wouldn't do, not once, but countless. times. And until YouTube is banned, we'll be  able to prove that. And the idea behind it,

um, is not only contrary to America First, um,  it may be its inverse. There's no argument that, uh, changing the regime in Iran helps the  United States. And if there is an argument, I'd love to hear it. And by the way, if  that argument is sensible and convincing, I will support it. All I care about is the  United States. So, but I haven't heard that. argument a single time. All I've heard is the kind  of tiresome fear-mongering about nuclear weapons,

which Iran did not have. It's uh it's insulting  actually even to make that argument to me that. Iran's nuclear program posed such a threat to the  United States 3 weeks ago that we had to launch a. full-scale war against them. No one's even arguing  that because it's stupid and the facts don't. support it. So why did we do this when we did it?  Because Israel wanted to do it. They chose the. timing here. No one disputes that. And timing in  war as in life is a lot of it. And it determines.

outcome. And it's they hadn't thought through what  was going to happen next. The Israelis hadn't and. we hadn't because we didn't have time to. It  sounds to me like you think he has betrayed it. This war is clearly contrary to what he promised  and contrary to the idea that your leaders should. put your interests before those of foreigners.  Period. We put Israel's interest before ours. Trump did that. BB's not in wasn't elected  president of my country. My president was. I supported him obviously voted for him. But um  yeah, no one wants to talk about how it happened.

because everyone apparently including you is  so afraid to criticize Israel. I'm very happy. to criticize. I I as I said I I have I have had  a very robust conversation with Prime Minister. Netanyahu. I think I've had many much criticism  of the way Israel has done behaved over the last. few years particularly in Gaza and we've come out  very very strongly against this war. I think where. we agree is that this was clearly a very bad idea  and where I think we agree is that the president. of the United States made this decision. That's  why you've essentially said that he betrayed the.

America first movement. But I I guess my view  is that there are other factors weighing in on. why he did it like the hubris that came after the  Venezuela like the fact that he's just his foreign. policy is not strategic and non-s serious and I  think those things played a part in addition to. very clearly visits from Prime Minister Netanyahu.  What I think is interesting this foreign policy is. non-s serious you tell me. Oh I I think it's been  really ser much more serious. I mean, if you non-s.

serious, I would look at nonstrategically serious.  Please. No. I I think you think it's serious. You. think there's a serious strategy behind I know  there is. I've talked to him about it endlessly. Tell me. I think I think the world would love to  know what that is. What his pre-Iran Well, I would. strategy was this is inconsistent with everything  that he's ever said in public or to me in private. So, I just want to be clear about that. But it's  in public. I He hasn't said a lot to me in private.

that he doesn't say in public. the famously  loquacious Donald Trump kind of lets it all. out all the time which it and it's interesting  though that I can't answer your I think most. important question which is then why did he  do it and I don't know the answer but I will. say that advocates of this war funded the last  election I mean the numbers are really the the. biggest donors pushed for this war and they would  include like literally an Israeli citizen. Uh, so we have a problem with the way campaigns are  funded and that is exactly why our entire Senate.

obviously that's why our entire Senate goes along  with stuff like this and if you actually talk to. them and I've tried famously with Ted Cruz like  hey what's the thinking here? Shut up anti-semite. Our politics is funded by a foreign lobby, by many  lobbies, by the pharma lobby, healthc care lobby, mineral extraction lobby, but the biggest  and most effective and important lobby, and Donald Trump has said this many times in  public is a foreign lobby. And so it bore its. fruit right here. I mean, I don't know why they're  not the reason I think that I I I'm willing to go.

along with quite a lot of that, but it seems to  me to be a very strate strategically shortsighted. view of Israel because at the same time on  Israel's behalf, if Israel is wants to lobby. for the continued support that will guarantee  its security, which has, you know, presumably. underpinned this for many decades, then it's  doing a pretty poor job since public opinion has. collapsed. And actually one thing I totally agree  with Prime Minister Netanyahu clear I think Israel.

could be destroyed over this. I believe that we're  actually getting to a one of the reasons that you. need to constrain Israel right now is because it's  a very small country facing a much larger country. and they've talked themselves into the state of  crazed kind of hubris as you said motivated in. part by the esquetology of some of their coalition  where they think that they can like rule Persia. They could get crushed and at that point they  will have no option and I'll understand it but to. use nuclear weapons against Iran and then we just  have a much worse world and a lot of people dead.

I think you need to constrain in Israel for its  own benefit because you could see this getting. super radical. Let's talk about the the way the  debate develops in this country because I think. you're right. There is it's extremely difficult  to talk about the subject that you and I have just. spent the last half hour talking about because  there is a because there is a conflation very. often. Anybody who criticizes Israel is vulnerable  to being called anti-ionist or anti-semitic and. there's conflation by the exact people you've  just been talking about by the in the in the.

kind of firmament of political good faith response  or a tactic. I'm about to ask you that question. Clearly, I think you and I agree we have both been  critical of the Israeli government. I just want. to kind of clarify terms a bit here. Well, I've  really been critical of the Israeli government. I've been plenty critical of the Israeli  government. I've told you at the beginning that. we were against What do you think of Gaza? What  do I think of Gaza? Yeah. I think the war in Gaza. to start with was a perfectly reasonable response  in response to the horrors of October 7th. I think.

now the places I mean I've been there. Have you  been to Gaza? I've been to Gaza since since the. war started. They would not catastrophic. Trust  me, very few journalists get into Gaza. Yeah. No, I I went with the IDF. It's the only way that  you can go in. But nonetheless, you go in and. you see a flattened place. I think it is a  disaster. A disaster for the future of Israel, a disaster for the Palestinian people, a horror.  70,000 people dead. Why would you describe it. first as a disaster for the future of Israel? You  got tens of thousands of civilians murdered, but.

it's foremost a disaster for the future of Israel.  No, it's almost a disaster for the families of the. dead kids. I made absolutely I made three points.  Let me Everybody sucks up to Israel in this way. that suggests they're afraid. And everyone  is afraid. And you know that everyone's like. the real problem is calling people anti-semmites  allows real anti-semmites to flourish. It's like. no actually the real problem with calling people  anti-semites who aren't is accusing the innocent. of a crime they didn't commit. And the real crime  in Gaza is killing people who did nothing wrong.

So those are the real problems I would say. But  no one can say it because you have to be like oh. no but really October I don't know what you're  talking about. [laughter] We're having we're. having a everyone watching this knows what I'm  talking about. Well, let's get on to that right. now because you are critical of the government  of Israel. Do you believe in the Israel's right. to exist? Would you consider yourself a Zionist  in that narrow definition? What does that mean? A right to exist. The existence of the political  state of Israel as But it has a right. What does. that mean? That you don't you think it should  continue in its existence as a state right now.

So you you are the you do not agree with Iran, for  example. Let me just ask since you asked me the. question, it's fair for me to get you to define  the term so I can answer it. You've asked two. questions. The first was, do you believe Israel  has a right to exist? And the second question was, do you believe Israel should continue to go on  as a nation state? And those are very different. questions. So I often hear the having been created  as a political entity in 1948, does that right to. exist? Is that what you're asking? We I don't want  to get hung up on the right should it continue to.

exist. That's what that's how I define narrowly  designed because because the phrase you used. was devised by the Israeli government. Of course.  Does it have a right to exist? And so my question. to you would be what does that mean? Why don't you  answer my question? It's a very I don't know what. your question is. Are you asking does it have  a right to exist or do I want it to exist? Do. I seek its destruction? Fine. Answer it that way.  Well, of course I don't seek its destruction. I've. already said as you know cuz I said it to you.  I don't want Israel to be destroyed or have to.

use nuclear weapons. We've we've established that  you are in that narrow terms a Zionist if that's. in no sense a Zionist. I don't want any country  to be destroyed and I at all and I don't want. people to die particularly ones who committed no  crime because I don't believe in killing innocents. period. That's the basis of Western civilization.  Eastern civilization it's a whole different view. They believe in collective punishment. I don't.  So you're in no sense as ironist. I don't even. know what that means. Why don't you ask define  the the term and then I'll tell you what I just.

defined it and you said that that a Zionist in  my narrow term this definition is that the state. of Israel the political state of Israel has the  right to continue existing the right where does. that right come from what do you mean these are  like I'm not being a lawyer about it I just want. to know what you're asking to answer the question  because I don't know what you're asking me let's. go to the [laughter] you don't want to define your  question and I don't know why I don't know what. you're asking asking me. I've already said I don't  want Israel to be destroyed. I don't want anyone.

to be killed. And you've said, does Israel have a  right to exist? Does it have a And I My question. is, what right are you talking about? Does Britain  have a right to exist? Does the United States have. a right to exist? That there there was a world  order built up after 1945 which suggested that. aggression should not be condoned into countries  and that countries with borders have the right to. I totally agree with that. That's which is why the  first thing that Israel did within two weeks of. this war starting which is supposedly existential  for them was take southern Lebanon take someone.

else's country as they have done repeatedly  and no one even mentions that and so I guess. I would be opposed to that because I guess I think  Lebanon has a right to exist. I thought Gaza had. a right to exist. But I noticed that as soon as  we started rights only one country gets them. No, I did not say that. You're you're absolutely  putting words in because I believe here's. what I do believe since you asked. I believe in  universally applicable standards and if they're. not universally applicable, they're not standards,  they're preferences. That's why I believe in human.

rights, not ethnic rights. I don't think Jews  have more rights or less rights than anyone. else. I don't think Christians have more rights  or less rights, blacks, Filipinos. I believe in. human rights that derive from the creation of  people by God. Let's just quickly do a little. detour and and and go to Ukraine. Totally happy  to do that. And Ukraine, an independent country, was invaded. Independent country in what sense?  An independent country recognized by other. countries since the early 1990s. But independent  in what way? With a so a sovereign country. Oh,

sovereign. Yeah. What did you think of the US  installing new leadership in 2014? Was that. an expression of sovereignty? A coup? I mean,  let's stop. Look, I'm again, if you're asking, am I for Russia rolling over the border? No. But I  wouldn't call Ukraine a sovereign country. That's. not an honest description of what it was or is now  or will be. Unfortunately, I will beg to differ. There it is. It is and will be. Do you think but  but you you have a the reason I ask it because.

you say you're not against uh you you now just  said you are not against Russia invading Ukraine, but at the time you were you said it was a border  dispute. Uh you were very crit you've always been. extremely critical of the Ukrainians. You've  been very sympathetic to Vladimir Putin. I've. been critical of the Ukrainians a single time in  my life. I absolutely have. You've been massively. critical of of the Ukrainian government. Yes.  Of presidents. Well, I would say that again say. that the unelected president of Ukraine who has  no moral. Why is he unelected? Well, because he. canceled the elections. Did that not that news  didn't filter down to the economist? Yeah, he's.

supposed to have elections. They haven't had them.  They he he they are there is a under constitution. You cannot have an election in wartime. He used  it perfectly. That set up a perversion. So you. there's no dictator in the world. Have you been  to Ukraine since the war started? Are you kidding? No. Okay. I have several times. I can experience  have an election in a country which is you're just. making excuses for tyranny. I don't know why. I  thought we were for freedom. Why wouldn't you have. I'm not making excuses for tyranny. Of course,  it's tearing. This is this is exactly the kind.

of way that you argue, which makes for very good  podcasting, but makes for ultimately incredibly. fruitless conversations because you you you  answer one question by saying, "Oh, so you're. for tyranny." Of course, I'm not for tyranny. I'm  simply Why is it okay for cancel elections? He the. Ukrainian constitution doesn't allow elections  under martial law, and so it's not possible to. have elections unless you change things. Do you  think it right now makes sense to have an election. when you have a large amount of the country,  20% of the country occupied, a huge number of.

Ukrainians outside the country? Why don't you let  them vote? Why wouldn't you let them vote? And. then we'll find out. Is Russia a tyranny? Well,  by that by that standard, it certainly is. You. get you get the government in place and you don't  get to change it. So, so Russia is a tyranny which. invaded an independent country that had to go  back to our earlier conversation under modern. law the right to exist in its current borders.  Okay, let me I will characterize what I think if. that's okay. I'm against Russia rolling across the  border. I think it destabilized the world. I think.

our the American response to it gravely hurt the  United States and Europe and I'm really sad about. that. Not and I'm not against the Ukrainian people  at all. Never have been. I think its leadership is. terrible, horrible. I think they would lose an  election tomorrow and I think you know that. But. that's not the point. The point is it was bad for  the United States to push Ukraine to join NATO. That was my number one point. And when the vice  president of the United States, Kla Harris, went.

to the Munich Security Conference in February of  2022 and said on camera at a press conference to. Zalinski, we want you in NATO. That's the moment  at which you knew this war was inevitable because. that's too threatening to Russian interests.  Obviously, to have NATO missiles on your eastern. or your western border, like are you joking? So I  said the second that happened, we're going to get. a war if we don't pull back. When you had your  very interesting and very long interview with. Vladimir Putin, he explained to you that large  parts of Western Ukraine uh were inherently part.

of Russia. So the notion that this was because  of NATO expansion was belied by what the ruler. of Russia say NATO expansion had a role in that?  I think it would have happened anyway because I. think when you listen to Vladimir Putin, he has  a view that Ukraine doesn't have a right to exist. and that it is part of broader Russia. But my the  more important point is so that was irrelevant. NATO expansion was irrelevant to the war. Is  that what you're saying? I I think it is a much.

less important thing than Vladimir Putin's overall  sense of wanting to recreate the Tsarist Empire. Putin said to you when you asked him, you in fact  you started that interview by by asking about NATO. and he gave you a very long history lesson where  he explained at great length that Russia that the. that what belonged to Russia included large parts  of Ukraine. And I remember your face. You were. looking rather quizzical as the sort of half hour  went on. And by the end of it, it was very clear. that he was not answering your question by saying  it was anything about NATO. He was giving a much.

broader historical argument. Then the invasion  did happen. And this is this is important. The invasion having happened, you think it  was a very bad idea for the United States to. support Ukraine in its defense? That's what  you just said. The United States, the Biden. administration wanted this conflict, there's no  question in my mind that the United States wanted. this conflict. And if there's one, and I hate  to say this as an American, but if there's one. true villain in the story, it's not Silinski,  who was a hless figure. It's not even Putin.

It's the US government and not it's not even it's  not even Joe Biden. It's the entire US government, the State Department, CIA. It's the permanent  agencies and it's the orientation of the US. government since August of 1991 that could not  come to terms with what was happening there and. sought to constrain and control Russia. But just  to be clear, several hundred,000 troops rolled.

across the border in the biggest, you know, land  invasion in Europe since 1945. And you think it. was a mistake for the United States to say to  the Ukrainians, we will come to your support. In this specific case, the United States, the  B administration wanted conflict with Russia. I don't think they quite understood what they  were going to get, but they provoked Putin. The real problem I had was to be blunt since  you asked was not the military aid at first,

it was the sanctions and it was kicking Russia  out of Swift. That to me was the most reckless. and destructive thing you could do. I want to get  and put these together and try and understand what. then an American first post Iran war an American  first policy agenda looks like that to you is not. betraying what the voters who voted for America  first are and you in in Ukraine's case you've. argued that it was a bad idea to support Ukraine  from that I didn't quite argue that but yes.

you did yes you did over many years you were the  loudest voice [laughter] who was against this. All. right. Um I think I just explained what my core  problem was and I felt that the sanctions were. the most destructive thing that we So, for the  record, there isn't any US aid going to Ukraine. It is all being paid for by Europeans. There  are some US weapons that are being bought for. by Europe bought by Europeans going to Ukraine.  I know it's so sad. You're watching my interview. with Tucker Carlson from March 2026. If you want  to get access to other interviews, subscribe to.

The Economist by clicking the link above. Now,  back to the interview. You guys are going to. beat Russia. Good luck. [laughter] I'm sorry.  I think this is too important to have to kind. of giggle over it. I'm not giggling. I'm mad at  your politicians. They're they're liars. They're. liars. And when they stand up when Kierstarmer  stands up to distract attention or merts to or. Mcronone to some extent and stands up to divert  attention from the disasters underway in their own.

countries to say the real enemy is Russia. I see  deception and I see betrayal of their own people. and I have contempt for that. They're not going  to go to war with Russia and if they do they're. not going to win. That's just a fact. And so don't  tell your people that to take the attention away. from you. That's my read. Let's talk about  Americans and your country's policy and where. you think if you were, you know, in the White  House where what would you put together as an. America first policy platform now that made sense  to you? Because you've explained why President.

Trump has betrayed it. You've explained why, you  know, what was going on in Ukraine was not the. right approach. What is a foreign policy approach  that is strategically coherent in America first? This is not I'm not trying to dodge the question  at all. I I think it's hard to know exactly what. the world's going to look like since we're right  in the middle of this grand pivot. This is my. read. I I think this is weakening America's hand  dramatically right now. I think the orientation. should never change, which is like try to do  the best for your country. Try to make wise.

decisions on behalf of your country. And that is  not what this was at all. This was responding to. an allies demands. And that's just not the right  way to do it. No two countries have this identical. interests. Identical twins don't have identical  interests. So like that's just not conceptually. real at all. And so you can never go into a war  assuming that you both want the same outcome. Why. would you want the same outcome? Israel wants  a very different outcome from the outcome that. helps the United States. So just don't do that  again. I don't but I don't know where we land.

I mean big picture the United States its policy  makers need to understand that we now share the. world with China because they have the world's  largest economy. We don't want that to be true. It is true. Lots of reasons. It became true.  It's stupid to even argue them at this point. That's the reality. So you have to have a power  sharing agreement. And the most obvious one that. I can think of is based like all good things  on geography. Now that raises real questions. about Japan. Taiwan I think is already kind  of not a real thing anymore. But South Korea,

South Korea and Japan like how Philippines.  So what what do you mean by Taiwan is not a. real thing anymore? The US is not going to defend  and cannot defend Taiwan now. should not defend. I don't know. Should I don't that's something I  mean I'm asking you to lay out what you think a. coherent I just don't think I think we've reached  the limits of our power and power has limits. Like that's another thing just to keep in mind.  Power is not infinite. You can squander it and. uh and we're in the process of doing that.  What about Japan and South Korea? Oh man,

it's hard. I don't understand exactly how that's  going to go at all from an American perspective. Like in the end big powers want to and get to  control their regions. We have something called. the Monroe Doctrine. This was another problem  I had with Russia. It's like Russia of course. is going to demand influence in Ukraine. And  you could say it's a sovereign country. They. can't have any influence there. Be real. A big  power wants to control hopefully in a nonbrutal. enlightened way but they want some influence over  their neighbors. We have to we can no longer be.

the sole author of terms of commerce of anything.  We have to share power with China with of course. because of their scale. And so there's got to  be a non-destructive way to do this. And one of. the things that bothers me most is the hostility  that you feel in the United States among policy. makers toward Europe and in Israel. The hostility  the Israelis feel for Europe is just very very. obvious. How does Europe fit into this festival?  I mean you has to be at the center of the west.

as Europe is the west and I criticize Europe  constantly I'm also so is there a because I. love them is Europe an ally of the United States  if Europe is not an ally of the United States and. then then China rules the world period and and  having an ally means treating it like an ally. in contrast to the way we're currently treating it  okay I would agree Europe needs to be an ally now. you've got a whole crop of silly leaders and a lot  of bad postwar attitudes, but fundamentally Europe.

is our ally allied on the deepest the deepest  possible levels and no one in the United States. wants to admit that. So if if Europeans feel  threatened by an aggressive expansionist Russia, you would take that into account as an ally.  Of course, and we did take it into account, but you were criticizing America for taking this  into account. Look, America needs to create a. hierarchy of concerns. And the first concern has  to be its own citizens. Of course, every sovereign.

state has to have that hierarchy. But I am calling  in my heart, I never say this, but I think this. a lot for a re reorientation of the way we in  the US think about the rest of the world where. Europe from which we came and our whole system was  just imported wholesale pretty much. Basically, Europe produced us. You think America first  means doubling down on Europe as an ally? Of. course. Threatening to take Greenland part of  that. I don't really understand that. I mean,

I personally felt that that was counterproductive  to our uh our goals, our natural goals. I think. there are people in the US government who really  really hate Europe. And I don't really understand. why. And I think there are deep reasons why  that no one will say but I don't know the. answer actually but I know that that's real. What  do you think those deep reasons? I don't know but. it's real. It's like the hatred of Europe. Like  I get it's you know Mcronone's a buffoon merch.

is a buffoon. Stormer's totally a buffoon. Many  buffoons. We have buffoons too. I get it. But like. blowing up Nordstream getting into a conflict  with Iran when you know it's going to shut off. LNG to Britain and Europe. What? gloating over  the destruction of the German industrial base. What? Why would you want that? First of all,  Europe is the global center of beauty, which. is really meaningful to me. I care about that.  Things that are beautiful are worth preserving.

Sorry. And you can't Why? So on a gut level, like  why would you want that to be destroyed? Second, the world is cleaving along hemispheres. Duh.  We didn't choose that. It's just happening. So. why would you want to accelerate the death of  the people you have the most in common with who. were part of your coalition in the end? But what  we're doing is by pushing basically creating the.

circumstances that created this war in Ukraine,  which we did. Sorry. And then withdrawing and. saying it's on you Europe. and then standing  back as European leaders to deflect attention. from their own failures, jin up the threat of  Russia, we are putting Europe and but of course. Europe can't defend itself because they've relied  on our security guarantees and allowed American. troops on their soil for 80 years. They can't  defend themselves, but that's because they've. been dependent on us for defense. We are putting  them into a position where they have no choice.

but to look for other alliances. And I don't know  why. It's just inevitable. I don't know what those. will be. I mean, I I you know, assume China, but  I don't know. But they're going to have to look. elsewhere. Why would we want that? Your America  first foreign policy would put Europe much more. at the center than it has been. Of course. And by  the way, that's not just out of sentimental love.

of Europe. Do you see any uh current potential  successor to President Trump having a view that. is close to yours that you think would be  the right person to take on this mantle? I you know I because I have said out loud what  you've never been allowed to say which is the. president makes these decisions but he's making  so under duress because of the pressure applied. to him by the state of Israel and its lobby in  the United States. You're not allowed to say.

that. It's a fact I've said it. I have been uh so  slandered as a bigot which I'm not. I would just. say so you know that any uh time I use the name of  any other person I think to myself especially who. I admire and would like to see have more  authority than he currently does I think. uh that might hurt him by saying so I'm going to  take a pass on your question. Could it be you? Are. you asking if I'm going to run for president?  Of course not. Are you trying to shape the.

outcome of the direction of the United States?  Do you see that as hard as I can? I live here. I. live here. All journalists are trying to shape  outcomes. That's why they're journalists. But. do you consider yourself a journalist? I don't  know. I'm I'm a Now I call myself a podcaster, Zany. And it's with some pride that I say that.  I think one of the reasons people attribute. motives to you that you say are unreasonable. You  know, you want to make me be quiet. Shut up. No, but I think there is also something because I'  I've been listening to a fair amount of your.

podcasts and I you say you are poor anti-semitism  and I have every reason to believe that. However, you do talk to and you know have on your podcast  avowed anti-semmites and let's let's talk about. the Nick Fuentes. He's I think he denies  he's anti-semite but I I scolded him in. anti-semitism in that interview. But you you had  a what two and a half hour conversation with him. which was by your standards an extraordinarily  softpool conversation. But but the my point is.

that you you know you're smart enough very  smart clearly we've I've seen that in this. conversation you consciously decided not  to ask him about his Holocaust denialism. You consciously there were lots of areas you  didn't go on go to and I think it is reasonable. for people to conclude from that that you were  sympathetic to his arguments. I've been asked. this about a hundred times and I have given the  say I could give you the same boring answer but. um about Nick Fuentes uh my goal as with Putin was  for people to hear what Nick Fuentes says because.

I think every person has a right to speak for  himself and I do think the function of the media. um but but on partic you particular topic I think  the function of the media having been in it for. 35 years is very often to deny people that right  and I said to characterize what people think and. to tell them what they think And I just I just  disagree with that. I think every person ought to. be allowed the right to say, "Here's what I think.  You don't have to believe them if you don't want, but I think you should you should hear what how  people describe their own views." Um, and so,

but I did say in point of fact, I I think  anti-semitism is immoral. And I don't think. it's immoral because it's unfashionable or Jews  don't like it. Jesus doesn't like it. That's why. I think Do you think it's on the rise in this  country? Anti-semitism is definitely on the. rise in this country without without question.  And what is the best way to combat that? Well, the best way to combat anything is with truth, not  with lies, not with attacks and hate. There's an. effort now to make certain speech illegal in the  United States, which is against our constitution,

as you know. Um, and also counterproductive. I  don't I don't see how that helps. Um, I don't. think putting people in jail for having opinions  you don't like is the answer. I would say that's. tyranny. And now this is an area in which I am  literally a liberal. I think the way is to refute. it and to tell me how I'm wrong. And if you think,  you know, it's outrageous that I think that, tell me, tell me where I'm wrong and convince me  cuz I'm an adult that we can agree. That's why we.

have these conversations. Amen. Tucker, there were  many things I disagreed with you on, many that I. did agree with you. I think you secretly agreed.  I could tell I agreed with some of them. I also. think that I mean I'm going to you masterfully  combine something reasonable with a whole load. of completely unreasonable nonsequittors which  is why you're such a successful podcaster. You know the funny thing is let me just my show I  get the last word. Zucker [laughter] Carlson very. nice to [music] see you. Thank you for joining  me. Thank you very much. I appreciate it.