Wretch 32: How To Build Unstoppable Self-Belief | E132

could you do me a quick favor if you're. listening to this please hit the follow. or subscribe button it helps more than. you know and we invite subscribers in. every month to watch the show in person. music is game of thrones bro when you. see game of thrones they kill the main. character do you what i'm saying they. don't mind doing that wembley makes the. noise for reds feature together. i think the best turning point for me. was when i was 16 and my mom threw me. out she feels like it was a harsh thing. to do but i'm like at the end of the day. if you don't do that for me at 16 i. don't become rich.

we signed for a single which was tractor. that was my ringtone twin said to me he. was like this song was going to change. your life and then yeah bam it goes in. the charts and everything changed after. that. the obsession. made me better made me more hungry when. you find your passion here you find your. calling bro you're not fair to no one. everyone comes second bro my daughter. she has no recognition of living with me. i just became a monster man i just you. can't skip what's important man how many. we get 80 years maybe now your legacy.

can can triple that broke have the right. one what if it just hadn't worked out. it had to. so without further ado i'm stephen. bartlett and this is the diary of a ceo. i hope nobody's listening but if you are. then please keep this to yourself. [Music]. rich. take me back to tottenham when you're. growing up um i'm a big believer and to. be honest i always start these podcasts.

in the same way because i came to learn. when i was younger the importance of. those early years on shaping who we. become as adults and someone said this. wonderful quote to me that we're. actually just children living out the. stories we told ourselves about. ourselves long ago. so take me back to tottenham where you. grew up in the context in which made you. the man you are today grew up in seven. sisters in a state called tibetan. tottenham was just notorious in it for a. lot of madness a lot of crime a lot of. this a lot of that. and i think. for me just growing up and learning how.

to navigate through that how to. understand who you are what you're here. for. and also my parents and grandparents and. all that they were proper embedded. in you know fighting against police. brutality so i always had. a lot of understanding about certain. things that were probably above my age i. feel like i was always someone that. could get along with everyone like. whether our cool kid uncle kid whatever. i like i could always. have something to speak about with. anyone and i think throughout life.

that's always helped me and it's always. been beneficial but i definitely started. when i was young. um. in their state just like the regular the. regular stuff man that was happening you. know i'm saying like a lot of. badness um. stabbings a lot of this a lot of that. but we just when we were very young we. just wanted to play football you know i. mean when it's a play out play football. play games but as you get older you. you know you start seeing other things. hearing other things and. sometimes even. not even i wouldn't say not unwillingly.

sometimes you're just you become a part. of things because you're there on the. day or you're there at that time. and i think a lot of. them early scenarios kind of shaped. who i thought i was going to become at. that time. the best turning point. for me. was when i was 16 and my mum threw me. out. because. i now had to be the adult that i thought.

i was. so before that i was you know walking. around the house had a bravado had. attitude for i was a big man for i was a. bad boy for i was whatever. and you know all the time my mom's kind. of like single mom you know there's um. at that time there's a three two older. sisters and two younger sisters and. myself. in the house and just like. at that time just feeling like i'm. feeling myself a bit too much and my mom. was always like look i know you feel. you're beyond your years but you're not. you're actually 15 or you actually fall. in and if you continue moving like this.

you're going to be forced to be 21 at. 16. obviously as a you you're not really. taking that in taking it serious one day. i come home and my bags are on the door. so i'm kind of like all right cool and. i'm like. mad prideful as well so. at the time my sisters were like look. just have a conversation with her. she's gonna throw it out just calm down. a bit whatever whatever but i'm just. feeling myself still too much so i'm. kind of just like whatever i took my. bags went to my cousin's house for a.

little while. then i just felt like i was just in. other people's space obviously their. family but i just felt like i'm in the. way i don't like feeling like that went. to my sisters. still did feel like i was in the way. even though to her she'll say i wasn't. but. like i just don't want to be a burden to. anyone so then yeah just went to the. housing and yeah 16 years old i was in. my place and i learned so much man and i. think that's the best the best thing. anyone's ever done for me in my life why. did she throw you out.

i was too. too vibing man i just thought i was too. i thought i was it. do you get what i'm saying and i think. as well it's like. when you think you're it and you're. making a little money on the roads and. whatever and you're giving someone money. here and there. you're thinking you're doing your part. so maybe i'll give you 200 this month. maybe next month i don't give you. anything maybe the next month i'll give. you a grand maybe the next two months i. don't give you anything but. i'm always reverting back to the fact.

that yeah but i gave you yeah but i gave. you oh yeah but i've done this so yeah. but i've done that but what you don't. realize until your adult is every month. the bills are coming. they don't come staggered like you're. giving the money so it's not like. she can't just pay 600 pound rent in. january and nothing in february do you. know what i'm saying so it's like. but you don't have that understanding as. a child you need to be an adult to have. that understanding like these bills are. coming regardless. and i think. even though she was saying it to me i.

was still you know like you're still. calculating what you're giving like no. but i gave oh but i've done this so i've. done that. it's not enough the bills don't work. like that being 16 and learning them. harsh lessons this is harsh reality and. i was just like right i actually thought. i was a big man and it's like. like years i i was angry with my mum for. a bit at the time as you would be not. speaking to her kind of like kind of. trying to be like that but you know like. letters are still going there so he's. still getting there i'll get asked my.

sister give me the letter bring out the. letters don't really want to go in. whatever still you know being attached. to pride and being attached to too much. attitude and i just had to like humble. myself one day and i'd just be like you. know what mom that was the best thing. anyone's ever done for me and she was. like to this day like when she hears me. say it she still it still upsets her. because she feels like it was you know. very a harsh thing to do but i'm like at. the end of the day if you don't do that. for me at 16 i don't become rich at. 20 odd because he's too comfortable. rich comes out of being uncomfortable.

being backed in the corner being forced. to be. you know to be a provider being forced. to be the man of his house rather than. thinking he's the man of his mom's house. the man of your house did you know your. father. yeah yeah did you have a relationship. yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah my dad's a very. was very very serious man very serious. very serious very strict. very well respected because of. you know in the area with all the the. police brutality and all of that all the.

things that they fought for and still. fight for him my uncle and my nan but. just very very very harsh very harsh and. and the dj as well so old school you. remember they used to string up sound. systems. like my mom's house like all the. speakers throughout the passage. one of the rooms all the speakers like. all of us had to share because the. speakers had their own room you know i'm. saying i'm like mom. can't i at least sleep in the in the. speaker like i'm sharing with my sisters. i need a little space or whatever but um. yeah so yeah yeah good relationship.

obviously him and my mom parted ways. and um. yeah still still kept a relationship. like i don't have that. i don't know my dad thing like i know my. dad yeah. and uh your grandmother one of the. things you said about her was that. watching her. take care of your grandfather. who had cancer. yeah um was what a really pivotal moment. watching how sort of caring she was with. him and right up until the point that he. passed away. you know like when you're young.

your first experiences of death are like. so severe man like so impactful not that. not that it gets any easier but you. understand it more i think when you get. older. and i just think at the time. i don't i don't i've never. understood strength until i met. that situation with my grandma and it. was just. how she how she was you know like. caribbean so when i'd come around she's. like make sure you come back again you. know because i'm soon dead and i'm. saying you're saying to me he soon did.

like he's not gonna die i don't even. understand the severity of cancer as. young as i was at that time. she's like yeah man i'm soon dead. managed that and all my friends that he. liked she's like make sure you bring. them to say goodbye and i'm like say. goodbye like what the hell this. everything's cool but it's like. she's saying it to me like that but my. mom and my dad they're not like. explaining the severity of the situation. to me they're not saying like. there's a countdown so i've got my aunt. saying like yo we're giving him organic.

food we're doing this so i'm thinking yo. we're fighting it but every time i'm. going back. it's like. he's becoming like i don't know less and. less and smaller and smaller and now i. can. see it but i'm still i don't know i. guess the words naive in it that you're. very hopeful and you're naive thinking. nah nah nah it's going to be cool. because he'd been to be fair he'd been. saying he was sick for years but he was. undiagnosed he was ill but we didn't. know when he went to the doctor he died. once he got diagnosed it's a countdown.

now so i don't know if mentally. something. happens there i don't know if how that. works but. just watching a. you know through when he became in was. incontinent like washing him. buffing him feeding him just being there. the whole way through i was just like. that to me is was the real definition of. a marriage that is. you know um sickness and health do you. know what i'm saying that is death do us. part that was literally till death do us.

part and i'm like. i don't know if i'd ever see that level. of strength again the other thing that i. really stuck out to me about your. childhood as i was reading through your. backstory was that moment when you're. nine and a car comes up next to you yeah. tell me about that what happened uh what. did that teach you at that point like. tottenham was warring with a lot of. surrounding areas in it so. it was like food fiestas back then. tinted cars rolling through the estate. just. looking for whoever they're looking for. but i live in the middle of it and being.

young but being tall. and remember back then when when when. everyone's warm with each other like now. we have the internet so everyone knows. who everyone is what everyone looks like. whatever back then nobody didn't it was. just a description like he's dark. skinned and skinny. do you get what i'm saying so they're. coming looking for a dark skin and. skinny guy but i'm nine. and i'm going shop and then i remember. the car was breezing up to me. and i'm thinking right why is it driving. like that skids. wind down the window and then i look in.

the car i'm like bro. but it's like it's just like. nah nah and then drive off and i just. thought wow like what the hell like just. imagine if i ran like because you know. that for a second i was gonna run and i. was thinking right the cars because he's. driving towards me i can run that way. ain't gonna be able to spin around but i. just remember thinking like. i haven't even done anything do you know. what i'm saying first of all but then. when it stopped and they've done that i. was like. let's drive off and i think that thing. there made me feel like.

it's probably better to be involved than. to not. at the time. do you get what i'm saying because at. the time i'm not involved i'm actually. just a clean-hearted good you i just. play football and computer that's it you. guys i'm saying so when that happened it. made me feel like right that could have. happened to me for no reason. like i might as well give you a reason. do you know what i'm saying someone. could have done something yeah something. something could have like i could have. been shot whatever they was gonna do and. i think that kind of put a chip on my. shoulder do you know what i mean for the. next.

the next couple years which obviously is. what led to my mum feeling like now. you're feeling yourself a bit too much. go and fly the nest like if you don't. you know if you don't. if you don't push the bird out then this. it won't fly you know if you're not. throwing in the water you don't have to. swim kind of thing and a lot of men i. mean this happens. not just on the estate but men that. don't grow up in such circumstances they. start using that like bravado as a as a. form of self-defense but it ends up. um inflicting self-harm in some way i. mean that's what you tend to see with a. lot of gangs right you join for to. defend yourself or to try and fit in but.

it leads you down a path of self-harm. yeah because you go from. i'm doing this to fight back yeah and. then you go from fighting back in the. form of defense to offense now because. it's gone from i'm just defending myself. to now i'm out in a club or i'm out. somewhere. and. now you're getting into situations with. people that you feel. look like. you might end up in a situation with so. now it's just happening now it's. proactive yeah i'm saying. if you both.

were just defending yourselves then you. can be cool to walk past each other or. be in the same club at the same time or. whatever. i think a lot of like things being. unsaid. like when things ain't clear like you're. in just because you're in an environment. and you feel. i don't know you might not have an issue. with anyone in the environment but. because there's no clarity yeah because. they haven't said we don't have enough. of you and you haven't said we don't. have nothing with you it's just tense. yeah yeah i mean that's life right. relationships you know what i mean is.

communication yeah there's just a little. tenseness and it's like why is it tense. and then. depending on how the ice breaks i'm. saying if it breaks the right way it's. cool if it breaks the wrong way. then it's just erupting into something. that didn't even exist to be fair in the. first place and at that age what did you. want to be when you grew up what was the. aspiration. probably wanted to be ian wright. realized early on that ain't gonna. happen. um i liked music.

i didn't want to be a musician though. why. it didn't seem realistic. you didn't know anyone in your tribal. circle that i had gone yeah it was like. the musicians were like other people. jay-z yeah you know i'm saying tupac or. naz like that was. somewhere else so it's like yeah you can. do it for fun so we do it for fun we. write whatever i record. on tapes blah blah blah but i never. thought like. this could be a career i could make. money from this i could live in this.

space. so i guess like i was into trying to. understand what else happens outside my. estate because because also what happens. you feel like. your family your friends become your. family in the estate. the sweet shop is basically a. supermarket. um. so you don't need to leave you just move. from house to house then we're all. outside we play football then it's 9 p.m. we buy ice poles then everyone goes home. we do it again tomorrow and you just end. up. in a cycle of that but then someone told.

me. actually i saw one of my friends in an. advert. a guy from my estate called frank yeah. he was in a lexus advert. as a kid and i was like when he when he. come when i tell you i was like mom. that's francis he was over there i said. frank when i saw him i said frank how. did you get an advert he was like i've. got an agent how's that is it how do you. get agent. who's that there's a newspaper that. comes out every thursday called the. stage so it's like by the stage it costs. a pound but it just shows you so much. different things so i used to buy that. newspaper yeah just to see like.

what else can happen like what else is. there and it should be like. auditions or whatever to be fair i never. really go to any but i think like. i was just intrigued about like what. else exists like what other people are. doing then i'd see something about the. british school i'm like i wonder what. that is like all these things that we. don't know nothing about anna shears i. used to see sylvia young. all these things in the paper but there. was always a price a cost like sign up. for this or pay for the portfolio or.

whatever and obviously at like 11 12. 13 years you can't you know i mean my. mom she's not gonna. there's too many of us to ask for that. we need school uniform first and. foremost everything else is secondary so. um yeah. how old are you and you decided that you. were gonna like record a mixtape. and like publish it and try and sell it. 2006 when it came out yeah 2006. learn from my mixtape. came out that's my first. cd 24 songs on there.

i tried getting it on spotify i couldn't. no it's not it's not i need to you know. i need to get it up one day people ask. but i think there might be one or two. american beats right so that's why we're. struggling with that but um. yeah man i think at that point i'd been. on pirate radio i've been on heat fm. and i was just like. then i became obsessed i was obsessed i. was just like i need to go studio. as much as i can everything i was doing. was to put into being able to record and.

then once i had. seven or eight cds with about. nine songs on each it's like right what. about 50. 60 some songs like this is mad maybe i. should just do. do a project so then i came up with the. idea learned from my mixtape because i. wanted it to be like quite educational. like not in a school way but in a. streets way like i always wanted to like. educate the youth and let them know. there was other ways of doing things. kind of thing that's always been my. thing. so yeah came up with that made that. project.

the funny thing about that cd is that. you give it to the guy to press up you. pay your six or seven hundred pound and. then he. he presses it up but there back then. they were so long you're rigging him. every friday is it has it arrived no. it's not arrived yet. ringing ringing ringing ringing. so the day my son's born. i'm in the hospital i get a phone call. and it's the guy and i'm like. so the baby's born healthy everything's. cool answer the phone he's like you see.

these are here. come now because he's not i don't know i. don't remember if it was a friday but he. wasn't in tomorrow he wasn't in for the. next two days. so he was like come now so obviously. i'll come off the phone. i'm in the hospital holding my son. so like his mom's looked at me and she's. like who was that i was like yeah man. the cds are here but she knows that this. is my thing so this is like. but this is the thing when you make. music you're obsessed bro. you're obsessed so i'm like looking at. my watch like.

yeah i'm saying she's like. then she just looks at me and she goes. to go and get the cds man just go and. get the cds i'm like. thank you man. jumped in the car ripped the cred and. picked up a thousand cds. thousands you got them all in the car. thousand all in the car bro thousand. like seats two of us in the car seats. down. cut like a thousand it takes up bare. space as well. got them back.

so then like just. put them in the hallway. when i picked them up brought her home. and she was just like you need to get. these out of this house because now. there's a buggy. there's moses basket there's all of this. stuff i'm just like i'm just feeling mad. pressure i'm just like. that was just it was just fun and. exciting man it was like it was like my. life was born. was reborn my son was born i just felt. like a new. energy i was re-energized and i just i. just wanted to go man so it was like. spent the next couple weeks doing the.

salem return. so you take them to a shop if they don't. sell them they come back bro and at that. point i don't care about the money bro i. just want to be heard like i want. someone drove past me and they were. playing my cd bro you can't tell me i'm. not jay-z back then when i heard that. and i don't know the person normally you. know them i'm looking i'm like right he. doesn't even notice me he's driving past. me i'm like yeah this is like this is. happening we're growing we're growing so. yeah just re-energize man and sale in.

return is long because you're no one. the the shop guy he shows up fool so. he's like yeah we'll take five. i'm like my guy i have a thousand of. these take 50 bro i won't even come back. for the money i swear to you bro like. i'm cool bro he's like nah nah give me. ten. bro you know what i'm doing just to get. rid of them i'll buy the 10 back yeah. and then he'll call me and he'll be like. yeah the 10 went fast you know that'll. make someone else do it doesn't matter. if i don't lie what do you want you want. a 50 now yeah yeah bring the 50 yeah.

we've got 50 for you coming so you'd get. a friend to go in and buy this yes you. get what i'm saying so now i can go and. give him 50 that's half a box out bro. this was taking up so much space so yeah. doing that. oxford circus birmingham cried and like. all the music shops and yeah it was. different time in it when you were. running around shot on those cds what. were you doing for money because i'm. sure that wasn't that wasn't covering. the bills right. now me and my my manager he's my manager. now he was just he's always been my. virgin like my right hand we just.

every every penny we made from anything. we just put it together and put it in. this and put it in this so it's like. sometimes we'd go back for the sale and. return as well so we'd get a little. drips and drabs there this and that and. just. literally just sharing money it's like. we had one bank account if i'm honest. like it was we're just sharing like. anything. what do we need then we needed to do a. video how much does a video cost 2 500. whoa. all right cool but now.

my um. at the time like my son's mum's like yo. we need. buggy let's say we need a buggy but it's. like i need to do a video it was like i. felt like i was always trying to decide. between a bug or a video yeah bro that. you feel so guilty but you but you know. it made me understand it made me. understand. like the the need and the obsession and. the love i have for this thing because. i'm actually always comparing it like it. sounds mad to hear. me say but it's just when it's your.

purpose is your purpose bro every single. month we're growing we're growing we're. growing it's getting bigger and bigger. and bigger and bigger and when it gets. to that point we'll have. how many buggies do you get i'm saying. we have the best car everything it will. be able to spin what you get i'm saying. they'll put the cop will put the baby to. sleep whatever you know what i mean sma. champagne um. so yeah but that was like that was when. i was understanding that you've like. you've actually got some kind of. obsession or. some deep rooted love for this thing.

that should probably not be like that. you know what i'm saying like what. you're weighing up against the other. thing it just. but it just was man how long were you in. that phase of like trying to like trying. to give people your cds and like how how. in years or months how long was that. that phase where like people weren't. because i was watching the kanye netflix. yeah documentary recently. it reminded me of that that you got that. young man who believed in himself more. than anyone else did you see that scene. where he plays like bro it. all falls down all falls down and she's. not paying attention she goes on the.

phone yeah yeah she's on the phone she's. intentionally trying to tell him to piss. off ignoring. it reminds me of that like. so how long were you in that phase of. your journey just like selling them cds. i think so if this first cd came out. 2006 i reckon since like 2003 i'd been. giving out music but what i was always. very clever at like i always wanted. everyone. to like my music so i had different cds. with different songs on so i'd have like. a cd with 10 gram songs.

a cd with 10 love songs a cd with five. songs about trying to turn your life. around i just had different cds and what. i'd do. i'd give the cd. to each person as to what i think they. would like. so i give the man name that one but what. was happening is that i gave a man that. and then i gave his sister a different. one but his sister was like yeah but my. brother's got one that's got different. songs on but i'm not i don't think you'd. like that so it was like i was always. just i had music enough music to please.

everyone but then everyone wanted the. other songs as well so that kind of made. me decide that you know what if you put. everything on 24 songs then maybe they. can all be centered to this disc and it. can start there and it worked yeah. i had a few words to say about one of my. sponsors on this podcast my girlfriend. came upstairs yesterday when i was. having a shower and she said to me that. she tried the heel protein shake which. lives on my fridge over there and she. said it's amazing low calories you get. your 20 odd grams of protein you get. your 26 vitamins and minerals and it's. nutritionally complete in the protein.

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because i'm trying to drop my calorie. intake and i'm trying to be a little bit. more healthy with my diet so this is. where heel fits in my life thank you for. making a product that i actually like. the salted caramel is my favorite i've. got the banana one here which is the one. my girlfriend likes but for me salted. caramel is. the one. 2003 2006 you were trying to move them. cds mixtape comes out 2006. yeah but. what. what were you using as metrics to figure. out if it was actually working. bro if if i heard my song on the radio.

we was winning. every time i heard it i was like cool. i'm a manager. we are ying and young like i'm all. creative and this guy is ooh. genius in another way so he would be. like i'd go to his house and he'd be. like all right cool we're going to this. show in nottingham. these people are performing when you see. this guy he thinks he knows you yeah. because i've messaged him off your. account and you'd have had a. conversation so just make sure you say. hello to him. i'm just like have you even how do you. even know who's who but he'd already.

engineered some idea and. so then we we we were like proper that. the first station to proper. like really show us mad love was like. one extra so it's like dj cameo. ace and veers like all these bras kwame. all these twin b like all these people. were just showing mad love like come in. man do an interview and like i like to. think i'm likable people like to. conversate so with talking and then. this guy would introduce me to a. producer then the producer would. introduce me to. a next person then we found out about.

press and pr and started working with a. guy called charlie at visions and he was. like yeah you pay us 500 a month and we. can get you in magazines like right. magazines crazy like it was just like. everything was just. one person away so each person. introduced us to a different person and. that's how i'm. how i was measuring the growth so i'm. like i can come back and i'm like yo man. i just met this guy manny he shoots. videos or i met this guy he does pr i. met this guy he's a photographer like.

and she's in her head she's probably. thinking oh shut up yeah like what's the. photographer gonna do but i'm like it's. another step. each step each step each step one hand. is washing the other and we will wash. the whole body i promise you know what i. mean like. in that in that phase you're starting to. get these radio plays and stuff which is. kind of like a sign for you it's that. reinforcement that things you're moving. in the right direction yeah was there. and i'm sure you get asked this a lot. but was there a moment when. even. your partner at the time said to you do. you know what.

i think oh you could see it because. sometimes they don't say you can see it. in their face yeah when they hear it on. the radio they see you know yeah i. always knew that i was ticking her off. man. like in that interesting in that not in. everyone in that in that aspect because. even like at them times i used to write. at home. bro i don't know if you've lived with a. musician i've been around a musician bro. that beat is on loop for hours. you get what i'm saying and all i would. hear like when i pull it back is just. like as if you do again and i just was.

like you know what i need to just start. working in the studio because this. like it's not fair like it's. when you find your passion here you find. your calling bro you're not fair to no. one you only fear to yourself you know. i'm saying you're not fair to anyone. everyone. everyone comes second bro everyone and. it's not intentional it just it just is. what it is so. me thinking that i'm spending time with. her because i'm writing in the house. even though i'm not talking to her the. song's just on loop and i'm writing i'm. thinking i'm spending time i ain't.

spending time. do you i'm saying that's just being. present. so it's like. but then it's like in my head i'm. thinking yeah but if i'm in a studio for. eight hours i'm. at home yeah i'm at home but it's it's. actually all about me bro it was only. all about me my calling. and making this making this music like i. wake up every day i think music before i. go to sleep i think music i used to have. a dream that happened every time. and. in the dream i'm in a studio and i'm.

writing a verse. and i'd wake up and i'm like i can never. remember the verse and i'm trying to. remember trying to remember. one day i woke up i'm like i need i had. a pen and paper by my bed i left it. there i wrote out the verse that i wrote. in my dream i was like bro this is like. to me i'm like i'm believing in this now. i'm like this is this has to be. fake or something like this has to be. engineered by someone higher than you. man like from your writing in your sleep. literally. so just. and just going and going and going.

i want to get up to the point when you. release black and white in 2011. yeah. what happens between that mixtape coming. out in 2006 to 2011 is that what are the. most significant moments or pivotal. moments where things took a a turn in a. good direction okay like more. more exposure and little things. happening here and there like mtv asked. us to do. something for black history month it was. like a freestyle. that was strong because it showed. people i could write perform stick to. topic.

then one extra gave us. an award for getting. i think one of our records was the most. played right so it was like that was. quite cool like most street heat that. was dj centex is that punctuation i. think it's punctuation yeah punctuation. getting a lot more bookings. and. twin b. twin b from one extra um. always having conversations with him. like he just. gave me an understanding.

of the game on on the other side because. at the time he was working with at. ministry. and he just had so many gems and he made. me understand because i used to think. like why am i not signed like why was i. not signed why am i not saying i'm not. good or that's not about good or great. it's about. timing and it's about what can a label. help you do how can a label help you be. bigger what do you need to achieve. before you step into a label. so with all these conversations. you know doing loads of collaborations. as well.

and then richard antoi and twin b. they form a record label called levels. and they're like we want to sign you man. and i'm like. bro okay like what happens now kind of. thing it's like now you need a lawyer. now you need you know all these other. things and it was just like. once it got to that point. i knew that i was serious because. richard anthony had worked with adele. so many different people do you i'm. saying and i knew that this guy was. serious twin music lover we'd had.

endless conversations on the phone about. music. and they had their situation with. ministry of sound so they were like a. subsidiary of ministry of sounds it was. like center levels like. you know and ministry as well. and i just. i just knew that that was the right. thing to do at the time. when you get that news that yeah they. want to sign you. what's ashley saying. do you come home and you're like ah yeah. we've. um. i don't think i do you know.

i think i guess by that point. just me being about me the. relationship's not where it it could. have been a way it should have been you. know i mean so i think by that time. we're already. going our separate ways yeah kind of. drifting apart. but um. yes i didn't get to. to kind of have that that thing but i. think. i think she's you know she's happy for. me always been happy for me always one. always knew that this was what i needed. to do. she knew that it was a need and not a.

one. because of the things what everything i. was weighing it up against she knew that. this is a need like. this guy needs to do this like he needs. it so yeah. and then black and white and then black. and white yeah so initially we signed. for a single. which was tractor. that was my ringtone that was 2012. yeah. that was my ringtone i don't even know. what phone it was but it was my ringtone. when i first i did one day at university. before i dropped out and that was my my. ringtone from day one my guy yeah we had.

that record and twin said to me. when i put the verses down. he was like this song was to change your. life really he said that yeah and i was. like i don't know how you know that but. you're my guy so i'm believing in you. and i'm like. i just didn't know. what would happen next. so i'm still going back to them times. when i'd go to the record shops yeah and. kind of. buy back the cds to give more so when. i'm out in the club if they're playing. the tune.

or they're not playing the tune i'm. making sure they play the song you know. i'm saying like i'm saying yeah what. does it take what all the drinks cool a. lot of drinks play that song when the. dreams come. like i'm making sure that this song is. being heard we're trying everything. we're not trying to we're our fingers. always floor to ceiling we'd say we'd. make sure we'd covered everything floor. to ceiling and then yeah bam it goes in. the charts and. literally everything changed. everything changed after that take me. through that process so it goes in the. charts and then you start just what's it. like because i've you know never had a i.

never had a hit. bro it's like. you get throughout that week. sort of say like the songs available to. buy on sunday it was back then. so monday morning. like the labels kind of knows the. numbers in it so they're kind of like. your number. eight. i'm like bro number eight they're like. yeah but we'll catch. we'll catch seven and six. maybe five.

then the next day it's like yeah you're. number six i'm like what the hell like. and it's just going higher then it gets. to four i think and it goes back to five. and it's like it's five and it's like. right we've got one hold in in in the. top five. and it's just. i don't know i just think at that time. yeah you just. you almost. step into a vehicle and then it just. starts moving. and it's like you know like when you're. driving. through an area you're looking at the. window you're just seeing things and. you're just seeing people and.

but you're just moving it just it was. just moving bro like it was just moving. it was moving and then. you're doing glastonbury and then you're. doing. wireless and you're doing v festival. when you're doing everything was just. moving everything was everything. happened so fast that. i don't think i don't think i even. stopped to take it in at that time. and then it and then it was. cool you done it once that was one. single now we want to do an album what's. the next single that's like now you've. got to do it again and it's like i. didn't even really know.

how i'd done it in the first place if. i'm honest like you i'm saying it was a. cool song sounded good and it worked and. then it was just like okay make second. single and then made a second single. while making the album and it was just. it was just moving man everything was. just it was it was it happens you know. when they say like. you you wait your whole life or does it. happen overnight literally waited a. whole life was it happened overnight and. it and once it happened it just didn't. stop it just kept the ball kept rolling. man were you prepared for it. mentally.

and i don't know socially we prepared. for that train to pick you up and and. drag you off into. your dream like that. i don't think so now but i think luckily. the only thing i wanted to do still at. that time was make music. i think if i wanted. to i can see like how like you know like. a artist has a hit. and then just all over the papers and. just getting involved in different. things i can see how that can happen. temptation right yeah because you end up.

in other places. other than where you should be but for. me it was still always about the studio. like i'd go raving but. i'd go raving at one o'clock because the. engineer's tired or the producer's tired. and we finished and. i i don't have the best night's sleep i. don't sleep too well so. it's one o'clock yeah i'd go out but. then tomorrow it was studio like it was. always i was always in and locked in so. i didn't veer from that so i think. in a sense i wasn't prepared for one. side of it but for what i needed to do i.

was prepared for and i was serious about. my half my half of the deal yeah. and then so that album becomes a huge. success um a real breakthrough moment. for you. um. and then obviously when the album's done. you have another pressure right which is. the expectation of that album right. bro. go again do you what i'm saying like. flip a coin. 10 times. and get heads yeah all right cool now do. another 10. do you know what i'm saying. it's literally like how am i gonna. yeah get heads every time every time i'm.

saying get heads go and do it well. you've done it do it go. for me like. making music is the part that i'm in. control of. i never feel pressured about that never. because i have i have what i have to say. i feel what i feel. and i'm gonna pour all of that into. music i'm going to put all of that into. that album no problem. i just think at that time what. what was getting tricky was. ministry was kind of happy. that we'd had three top five singles and.

was kind of just. you know more as a business more happy. to stay in that domain like yeah let's. just turn out the hits. and i think. after. black and white and all of that and all. the things like. you know just. i think i had a lot of frustration in me. and. and and it was it was almost. it's almost the side of my life which i. i saw my uncle and my dad and all of. that talking about the police like that.

side of me was coming out whereas i'd. always mention it in my music i just. felt. like i. i wanted i i had something else to say. you know i'm saying everything happened. with mark duggar and all of that and i. was like i need to speak about. what's going on and and i think. it was it was a bit of a difference of. opinion you know i'm saying ministry of. sound wanted these kind of songs ain't. hit record so it was a bit of. a bit of friction so we had to work our. way. you know around that and it was just. about.

you know getting to the point where we. could release that album which was. growing over life and it was just. for me it was. it was it was important that i released. that record man. and and following black and white when. you look back on how you reacted and you. know that tension with the label and. stuff like that. in your maturity and wisdom now. is there do you wish you'd behaved. differently following the the release of. that album and its success is there. something you wish you would. you know. in with the wonder of high school yeah.

yeah change nah. nah because i wasn't like. i wasn't aggressive i just like to. understand i like clarity. and i think what what can happen in an. industry is. not everybody wants to be crystal clear. whereas it's like if if you're crystal. clear with it and say you know what if. we can get another don't go. and another tractor and another blackout. then. whatever so it's like all right cool. then you understand an assignment of. what you're after but it's like if. you're not being crystal clear then it.

kind of leaves you in limbo so you're. sending in songs. and it's just like. and they're not being clear about what. yes the feedback's a bit like. don't think this one's a single fact say. it was a single sister it was a song. that kind of thing you know what i mean. so it's like. yeah just trying to gain understanding i. think that was what my frustration was. was like just getting understand but. twin b obviously twin being richard and. always kept it 100 always was just like. look. if we can have if there's any moments. where we can i think they're like you. need to say what you need to say in it.

you know what i'm saying and. if their other moments arise we'll find. them and you'll engineer them you're the. best at doing that you know when you're. comfortable to do it you do it i'm. saying ain't no pressure come in from. our way and i came up with six words. which was um. written within that. within that space and within that time. and i was like all right cool i've got. one the one you want. is the one you want kind of thing um. so yeah but i think with hindsight i. didn't like i didn't fly off the handle. i didn't.

i didn't i didn't get angry i'm not i. didn't get aggressive it was pointless. did you stray away from your like your. principal passion of making music during. that phase did you did you find yourself. like not showing up obsessed in the. studio in the same way after that hit. because sometimes when people reach the. mountaintop they they lose a bit of. orientation and motivation sometimes and. you know there's other temptations now. you've got better money so you don't. need to be. the hunger's slightly different. no no. no love it like i think. for me.

always wanting to be the best rapper. always wanting to say the sickest things. the things that people are like how did. you get to that i'm saying like. so that that never left me so like there. was always. freestyles there was always. you know always raps always versus you. know collaborations like at the time. like my manager zeon used to say to me. like he's just like bro sometimes you've. got to make something make sense like. these people are asking you for a. feature they want to pay you 20 bags of. us or 10 bucks a verse and you're saying.

no. and your bridging around the corner is. rapping you're giving reverse for free. like we've got a i'm not saying don't do. the verse for free but i'm saying. i'm saying there's some over here that. make that verse make sense as well so. it's like also as well navigation and. just being like oh yeah yeah. you're right kind of thing and just some. things work well for positioning you. know i mean. as well but just always yeah just always. wanting to be the best. artist man just always wanting to have.

the best album i think that's. something that's never left me and i. think if that does leave you. as an artist. that's probably when it's like you know. like when you see mike tyson in the ring. at the end. and he's fighting some guy you haven't. heard of. and he's just mashing him up and you're. just like mike man. do you i'm saying like mike five years. ago you would have finished him but he's. like. mike's not mike. do you know what i'm saying mike got. that. that same one you don't love it anymore. do you know what i'm saying the love's.

gone you can see it in his eyes and i. feel like. if that happens to you as a musician. it's yeah it's not it's not good to kind. of like mess up your legacy man like one. of the things that's always made you. stand out even when i listen to your. fire in the booth and i listen to all of. them i have them on replay i actually. played one last night to my girlfriend i. was like right she's coming. i played uh the one you did with is it. yeah i played that one a lot. is the subject matter of what you write. about is isn't about. buying rolexes and fast cars.

now. as a young black man myself um. i. tend to feel a sense of disappointment. when i go on instagram and i see like. the new school of like hip-hop artists. all putting their hands in and showing. their roles because for me. it's like leading. um. our people astray in the sense because i. would like them to show their investment. portfolio or their. the the equity they have in businesses. and stuff because. like. you know um what's your stance on that i.

actually was gonna put some stuff on my. story the other day because i saw. i don't wanna name names because it's. not about individuals it's about a. culture um i saw some rappers that. actually follow me some big big hip-hop. uk rappers that follow me. all like showing off the material things. that really disappoints me because i. know there's thousands in this case. there's. 800 000 people that follow this guy. and. they're now gonna aspire to buy gucci. before they invest their money or put it. away what's your thoughts on this i.

think we've. growing up here i think like we were so. like bedazzled by. the american. rap culture. and we'd always seen them have things. have jewelry have all these things and. whatever and i think even myself at a. point. for me that was like a trophy or a. measure of success. do you know what i'm saying it's like. the rolex was a measure of success and i. and i think like like i've heard you say.

yourself as well it's like once you get. it. it's like. it doesn't really make you feel. inside yeah it doesn't really give you. nothing like that and i think we haven't. had. we haven't had the luxury of. of information. and i think. information comes from people who look. like you and people who have been. through it had success and are able to. tell you so now i'm in that position i'm. able to talk to her 18 year old.

and be like yeah man you can get that. but at the same time make sure you've. got that. one of the dumbest things i'd ever done. in my life i don't think i've said this. anyway is. so obviously when i. um my mom's got a council flat. bro when i signed my deal i left my. house i left the whole house and just. went left the council i left just left. it. but people at the time were saying to me. yo man. buy it like why don't you buy it and i'm. like i don't i'm not going to live here. like it was in tottenham i'm like i'm.

not going to leave here i'm going to. yeah i'm saying no like no you don't. just buy it but the people that were. telling me to buy it didn't own a house. so i'm like what do you know yeah what. do you know that i live in. princess park manor do you know what i'm. saying now like this is gated community. like this is way better than this bro. that was a very stupid mistake i should. have bought that that would be my first. one on the ladder do you know what i'm. saying they give you a discount bloody. bloody blood whatever. but. even though i had the information.

it wasn't coming from. a success story it wasn't coming from. someone that had done it before. do you get what i'm saying so now i'm. the first one that's like yo. where are you going to rent like. think about what you're doing because. then even myself like i wasn't even in. princess part mana forever. and even in there like i wasn't ever. like thinking about buying property. and they were like don't you want to buy. the one that you're in i was like nah. i'm not going to be here forever like in. in my eyes property was.

you buy to live not buy to let and you. can't move yeah i'm saying in my head. i'm thinking no i'm going to buy where. i'm going to live but i'm like i never. really. understood that no you can buy and move. and just own it and then rent it. yourself you know what i'm saying i. didn't really understand. the principle of that. so um. i understand. i understand why it happens i understand. why. we we want all these trophies i get it. but i think it's it's about. people like myself. who can now conversate with the with the.

young a lot and be like look man like i. get it it looks nice. but bro like this music is game of. thrones bro. music is game you see game of thrones. they killed the main character bro do. you want they don't mind doing that. music is game of thrones bro you're. michael jackson on monday your t.o. jackson on tuesday bro like and then you. can be michael again by sunday you get. i'm saying like the mute it's musical. chairs bro like you have to understand. we're not. always going to be number one forever so.

just make sure. you're buying a foundation for your. foundation man. yeah when you had you know your first. big breakthrough moment at the time did. you. somewhere in your mind think that this. was. meant that you would be number one. forever is there a part of you that goes. oh we've done it now in terms of like. now i know the the uh the equation. yeah a bit of complacency maybe. i kind of think like the more you. understand because obviously but at that. time there's a. there's a route to get to number one and.

it's like. your song's launched. by mr jam or annie mack. and then. the pre-order's out. and then you go for playlisting on radio. one one extra capital and there's like a. there's a route that puts you. on the pitch. do you get what i'm saying attention to. it yeah to get it so there's all the. steps so. but the problem is. you can't believe in the route.

more than you believe in the fruit. so you can't think that. this root can work with whatever fruit. you give it do you get i'm saying you. still. still has to be an apple bro. like it still has to be fruitful it. still has to be a record a sick record. you get what i'm saying so then. you know you you like we've had some. records that i thought yeah like there's. one or two that i thought like the root. can carry it and then when the root. don't carry it you realize like that.

this. is not work every time you don't once. again you don't. you don't just. you don't get 10 heads in a row bro you. get i'm saying you get toes one time and. then it's and then it's how you bounce. back from that have you had to talk to. me about bouncing back from that then. because. you know. even as a fan of yours like i'll play. i'll play records of yours when they. drop and i'll be like i'll say it say to. my boys i'm like we got this little chat. on whatsapp i'll say this one is a. [ __ ] like this was um i'm like this. one's gonna be right and then it might. not get there and another one might you.

must have that all the time and how do. you manage the expectation of like. building creating a project. you believing that it's x y and z i mean. i do that with these podcasts as well. you just never know and which episode's. going to bang right. and then putting it out there. and that bit being out of your control. how does that feel like and if you had. moments like that when you've created. something and put out there you go what. you have to understand that that's the. side that we're not in control of. do you get i'm saying like. and as an artist just.

make it for you. make it for you put your best foot. forward but make it for you. because. if i make a song. that i think is rubbish but i think. everyone's gonna like yeah and i put a. song out everybody likes it it goes to. number one. i now have to perform this song. this song is in my discography this is. in my catalogue like. my. great-great-great-grandkids are going to. hear this song see i'm saying and not. even i've had a conversation with me.

that's going to be their representation. of their great great great great great. grandfather. be proud of your art man. do you get what i'm saying be proud of. it so for me it's like. i put my blood. sweat tears and skin in my album when it. comes out if they like it. if they don't like it. what can i i can't i can't do anything. more than i done and i and i put my best. foot forward and i think. you have to live by that man because you. either.

you you either have the hit that you. don't like. or you put out the record that you don't. like and it's not a hit. so now you've got. now you're wrestling back to get back to. where you was for something you didn't. even like anyway. do you get i'm saying just put your best. foot forward man and stay true to. yourself yeah stay true to yourself man. because it's your this is your legacy. like me now. i try and look at my. like it all made sense to me when i. started. seeing my career from the end till. today.

and i'm like. what what. what navigates me is will i be happy. with this at the end. so i make a song today and i'm listening. to the tune and i'm like. will i be happy with this at the end. can work for today then but if i feel. like at the end i might feel like oh. i don't think you should have put that. one out it's not worth it. it's not worth it it's not worth it bro. oh yeah what we get what we got how many. we get 80 years maybe now whatever you. like your legacy can.

can triple that bro do you what i'm. saying like have the right one have the. right one you've got you're in control. of that that's what you are in control. of and you've had a taste of the like. the empty nature of like fame and like. people writing about you every single. second and people running up and falling. and all this stuff you've tasted that so. what what have you learned about. what that means being on dragons then. now i get it a little bit more so i get. people coming up to me and stuff and i'm. in the early stages of like figuring out.

what it means to you know like have. daily mail reporters standing outside. the house here and taking photos of. being my girlfriend when we walk out and. i'm trying to understand what this. attention means is it something i can. use does it make me feel good what is it. it it didn't make me feel good man. i didn't that's one thing i've i've. always. wanted to be in the shadows like i've. always not wanted that part of it some. people understand how to use it though. do you get i'm saying because say for. example you're. you're designing clothing. and it's like every time they shoot you.

they're putting it in a magazine i'm. saying like you're being. you're being mass exposed and your. clothing is being mass exposed but it's. like if you don't have. if you don't wish for that if you don't. desire for that. then it's like i feel like it's. it was useless for me being. in the front of certain magazines for. for nothing like nothing artistic. do you i mean i know people say like. any publicity is good publicity i'm like.

sometimes you can just be. famous for nothing and no one wants to. be the guy that's like. the most famous person in the world and. no money. do you know what i mean or like not not. and i don't say money like to be rich i. just mean like. everyone knows who you are and. everywhere you're walking you're. stopping and he's having a conversation. taking a picture taking it taking it out. taking it out but like your thing's not. in order like you're not going to feel. good being that person. so like i just yeah i never i never. really liked it man i never liked it man.

i was the one i was hiding from the. patch man all the time in your comment. but did you ever experience what they. call like imposter syndrome walking into. rooms and feeling like what the [ __ ] am. i doing here or. being in situations and going like i. don't know if i deserve this that voice. inside. for a shoot period of time but you know. who made me overcome that richard entomy. like he passed away but this he's such a. champion this guy. would walk he walks into any meeting. fearlessly. any like you could be sitting down with. the head of hmv or d and he's going to.

tell them yeah you need to take twenty. thousand of our cds and did it and. you're just like. right like you're just. like he made me feel like. you're you bro. like you're gold you're the gold as well. you know you're gold bro like don't now. walk into that room and because you. think everything in here is is gold. becomes silver no no i'm cold as well. i'm saying and i think. being around him and then that drip down. to my manager zeon as well and he's got. that thing as well where.

bro we were like we were having like i. remember i remember we were um. we done a thing with lukaszade where. they put us on like on the balls yeah on. the bottles yeah and i remember like i. was sitting down and we were like. tapping each other so like yeah what do. you want to put on the bottles like yeah. man. you want to put our estate. on but i'm thinking they're going to say. no but they're like yeah yeah that would. be sick like yeah picture of our state. yeah yeah what else. yeah man and this and that and i. realized i was like you can get.

the things that you think you can't get. you can get like you are the gold as. well there's a reason why lucas aide. want to partner up with retreats you. know what i'm saying like there's a. reason. and it's like sometimes we think it's. they're so big they don't. but any it's a it's a two-way thing it's. a two-way street so i think. yeah for a short period of time i did. but then. like zeon. richard twin like they just they just. made me understand the importance of. like knowing your worth yeah knowing. your worth and just being fearless man.

just walking into any room as me. like and and. like i did feel that as well at certain. times because obviously now we see the. festival lineups like wireless and all. that like you see miss banks you see. stef london you see. gets you see gigs you see you see so. many names 2011 it wasn't like that bro. you see tiny. might see chip she rich do you get i'm. saying it was like or certain festivals. i'm the only representative of this. genre. so it's like when you're stepping into. that.

like then you're feeling like if i mess. up like if i even forget one line of my. lyric they ain't booking no one next. year do you get what i'm saying so it's. like then. you've got this thing where it's like. the fights on where you're fighting for. the scene you know i mean and you've got. to wear it like a badger honor i. remember like. doing glastonbury and like. the guy who. like books the tent like standing on the. side or whatever i can't remember what. facebook was but it was standing on the. side like it's asking me bare questions. like why do you have two drummers. it's just like.

bro i've got electronic sounds on my. album he plays electric he plays. acoustic like so the the music's gonna. sound exactly like the record oh how. come you. set a stage up like this how come how. come like so many questions that i don't. feel like he was asking anyone else he. just wanted to check if we knew what we. was doing. and at that point to be fair not. everyone's shooting in the dark. i'm saying everyone's we're all guessing. bro at that point we're all shooting in. the dark just don't be the casualty. don't be the one that gets hit that was. that was the theory so um.

[Music]. yeah we just. felt our way through but them times i. did used to feel a little thing but then. afterwards i was like nah man i'm coming. like we're coming we've got stuff to add. i've got hit records as well they want. to hear us. and then the festival lineup needs to be. more diverse like we're ten years after. that now and the festival lineup is more. diverse but i do feel like at that time. if tiny temple wasn't turning up or chip. wasn't doing what he had to do even. professor green wasn't doing what he had. to do i mean. she had to do what he had we had to get. it right and we had to or we i don't.

know if we'd be here today when you come. from the estate like you do. and you end up in these like boardrooms. and these fancy meetings with these you. know. rich white men in suits. um. what i see in a lot of like young. young people from those those kind of. backgrounds is they kind of walk through. life with a bit of a. an expectation that the cards are. stacked against them yeah and i i worry. sometimes that that belief. whether it's true or false it is often.

true. the belief that the cards are stacked. against you. can be. equally or more harmful than the cards. actually being stacked against you yeah. do you know what i mean yeah the belief. of the cosmetics against you can be the. deterrent of you even playing the game. exactly do you know what i'm saying i. don't even want to deal now like don't. do me anything there's no point i'm. going to lose anyway. you know what i'm saying but. i don't know what that comes from but i. was fortunate man like i can't i can't. say it enough like richard anthony.

like just. just a g he was a lawyer he was a lawyer. as well a music lawyer so he. he understood that side as well so he. could he could speak whatever language. do you get what i'm saying at any table. he could like if they started talking. about split some points he can he can go. there with you do you i'm saying so when. you're. walking into a game with that bro you're. you ha you're fearless bro quick one as. you might know crafted are one of the. sponsors of this podcast and crafted are. a jewelry brand and they make really.

meaningful pieces of jewellery the. really wonderful thing about crafted. jewelry is it's super affordable it. looks amazing the pieces hold tremendous. meaning and they are really well made i. think i've worn this piece for almost a. year. it hasn't broken hasn't changed colour. because it's really really good quality. and it costs roughly 50 quid people will. be surprised when they hear that they'll. probably assume that all of my jewelry. is like solid gold and cost thousands. and thousands of pounds but what's the. point when you can achieve the exact.

same effect from a piece of jewelry. that's high quality and cost 50 quid. that's why i buy crafted green machine. you started this business with your um. business partner. and it's um now i believe the. the largest cbd. shop in europe by the number of shops. that you have a number of stores square. feet they say square feet tell me about. green machine. green machine um if i'm honest i'm. someone who like. don't believe in paracetamols.

i don't like take stuff like that. a mate of mine was always telling me. that like he's going into this. cbd space and i'm like. what's cbd and he's like. it's basically a natural alternative. to medicine. so i'm like okay it's gonna be it's. gonna be the future that it's going to. be the future so i'm like all right cool. what does it do. he's like well people come in cancer. patients people with ms people with. fibromyalgia people with lupus people.

that can't sleep people that suffer with. severe headaches. okay and what does it do for them it. wouldn't say it cures them but. it helps them manage. their illness. so i'm like all right cool. so to me this sounds like paracetamol. because i don't believe in paracetamol. it don't work on me so i haven't i don't. need to i don't take it i haven't taken. it for years so i'm right cool. so i can't link him and i get. all the products. yeah i get all the products. and i give it out to family members.

someone's got fibromyalgia can you just. try and just tell me what happens like. it's absolutely nothing to do with me. just give me honest feedback. severe headaches you can't sleep anxiety. whatever giving out giving it out. everyone came back and was like. i couldn't sleep i'm now sleeping. or. the times when i was having. joint problems i'm rubbing the cream on. and. i'm okay so i'm like. all right cool i haven't told these. people this might potentially be.

anything to do with me they're just. being honest so i'm like all right cool. what do i have that i can personally try. so i'm like. all right i can't sleep. so let's try some of the others try some. of the olds bro i'm sleeping i'm like. all right this is a real thing so then. like. i was like cool let me have a. conversation with. like the actual founder yeah uh a guy. called paul which is absolute. genius in this realm and i'm like what's.

your story. he's like well chronic arthritis. and he literally. like has a cannabis background but he. was using cbd to help manage his pain. and he was like well why can't we. you know. open it as a business and you know start. start moving forward and helping people. you know um. so yeah and then i was just like. i haven't like put. a lot of time focus on money into a lot. of other things other than music and. i've always been waiting to find.

something. but i wanted to fight like i didn't want. to go that down a clothing route like i. want. something that reflects who i am i'm an. individual who likes. to help people. do you i'm saying like. a people's person. and i honestly think like this is like. the future. of medicine man like and so hopefully. you know it will go down the route where. you'll become prescribed like if you. look at. if you and and for us it's like it's. about.

growing a business. we're hoping to have like between 50 and. 75 stores within the next three years. wow. um. and hopefully if it goes to the point. where. it it does turn into like a former. chemist like the fingers of the chemist. you go there and you're like i've got. a headache what can i take. they recommend you think oh i've got. itch on my back you can actually speak. to someone and they can tell you oh no. no you're better off getting that cream. that works better for you cool like we.

want to be. that kind of version. for people that come in because it's. it's it's a two-way educational street. because people are coming in a lot of. people coming with ms a lot of people. coming with cancer and i'm like as much. as. everyone in the stores are equipped to. tell them there's still new things to. learn and there's like still new ideas. for different products and it's just a. new. space that you know i get to to put some. focus in and this is. is something that i think is is honestly. going to benefit people as well.

and we've tried a lot of the products. they're all amazing this one actually. tastes amazing as well the grapefruit. and mint drink and we went down there. earlier we got some coffees. and some other and some of the oils and. stuff the creams that i'm going to try. as well super interesting the other. thing that you're involved in which i. think is a fairly new thing is the def. jam position so you're now the creative. director there yeah that's though. that is just mad yeah it's i'm working. with a like such a cold bunch man like. everyone everyone's extremely talented. man and. i think for me more than anything like a.

sick to be on this side. because understanding it from the other. side like being the artist coming into. an office or coming into an environment. i'm gonna know. the answers to a lot of the things what. they're asking because i've been through. it as well. so um. always on my come up like i've always. worked. or had long conversations with artists. that are coming like whether it be. stormzy would be avalino it would be. young and krypton whoever whoever it may. be. and i think like there was never like a. role or a title.

or nothing and it's like you're not. doing that for money or for finance like. you literally want to see the game. nourish you want to see. everyone blossom. so it's like. the games got bigger. and i think now. it's about. showing that we're able to work in the. infrastructure and add value do you know. what i'm saying like it's it's valuable. our artist being inside to be able to. speak to eyes you know i'm saying to be. able to create to be able to implement. ideas because what happens is you.

like i say like you we jumped on a train. at the beginning of 2011 and it just. moved and then i i had to meet a tour. manager and i had to meet a booking. agent and all these things and it's like. i can literally talk you through. everything step by step and that's like. if we're signing artists at ground zero. sometimes there's artists that already. put a paper he's already here already. established. he signed to us um. but it's like just having artistic. conversations with artists do you know. what i mean and. i think it's beautiful man i wake up and.

think ah wake up and think creative so. to be able to be in a space where i'm. able to do that with artists that i love. and respect with people that i love and. respect as well. win-win man yeah. earlier on you said till death do us. part notice you um you don't have a. wedding ring on. no no no. no what's the situation now you're in a. relationship you're dating or sir uh. yeah in a relationship not married have. you struggled with relationships or have. you have you found it being a fairly. obsessive person because throughout your.

story i had i saw this word hunger over. and over again yeah other people. described you and i'm thinking back to. ashley on that kitchen table getting. annoyed at you you know yeah i think i'm. understanding balance a lot more. i think that's come with maturity. and that's come with age like balance is. important. i had no balance back then. none it was all. about making this happen and i don't. know if it's because. it happened do you know what i'm saying.

maybe if it doesn't happen maybe. we don't get this version of me where. i'm more understanding that. you've got a divide time i think also. what was a big eye opener for me like. once again talking about jumping on that. train yeah um. from like. 2011 to 2014 15. bro certain times my family's having. conversations yet and. i'm like when was that. i know like that was when you was. off.

yeah it's like i was it's like i was. dead for four years i was just off the. grid and it's like. it's never ever sat well with me do you. know what i'm saying so now like i make. a conscious effort conscious decision to. be like as someone who is the back the. backbone and the head of the family to. be it. i'm saying because there's two. there's two types. of of you know of men that hit the. family and this and it's one that. everyone's financially okay and when if. there's any red letters.

but then there's a there's the one. that's. able to do that but is also there as. well like a hour on the phone or. let's go and sit down and talk for four. hours is. as powerful as someone who can make a. bill vanished you get what i'm saying. and i think in 2011. i was more the other guy yeah i'll show. it out i get um phone this person they. can sort it out phone like someone can. sort it out. i'm shooting it out but it was like. i'm missing and it doesn't make me feel.

good i miss graduations and. do you know i mean like so much things. that because you're busy they might not. invite you to now because we asked you. to come last week but you couldn't make. it like i was generally out the country. but maybe i could have made that one but. you didn't ask you know what i mean so. it's like it doesn't feel good man i. think i'm probably ready like a guy now. it's horrible yeah and not giving enough. attention to. family in that regard like how do you. how did you balance it. with my family it really really it's a. really difficult thing um they kind of.

live all over the place as well so they. don't all live in one place so. really like what i do is i try and bring. everyone together for christmas and i. fund the situation at christmas um but i. know i'm not doing a good enough job and. it's something i want to work on. fortunately i met a young lady who. is very unnegotiable about balance yeah. and like i genuinely feel that if i. don't. i've got make sure my terminology is. correct here because sometimes sometimes. when people describe their relationships. especially people that are really. obsessive they start to use words like.

which is which. which. make it seem like i'm doing something to. please someone. so that they don't go yeah well it's not. i want to do it. but she has given me the desire to want. to be balanced in my life. which means like. today. during the work day i went for lunch. with her then came back quickly and like. carried on with my research on you and. stuff i would never have done that. before yeah i would have just woken up. in the morning eight o'clock and i would. have worked till one a.m until i'd.

fallen asleep and then i would have said. to whoever i was with. probably kind of like gaslighted them in. some way and said like ah you don't. understand yeah. no no you found the right person then. yeah because then you want to. then i want to do it. yeah then you want to do it you know. what i'm saying then you want to. it's about balance man it's about. balance and even me with the kids as. well like. my son's 15 yeah yeah my dude was 10. it's like. that balance as well like it. you know at the time when i had my dual.

arm we then. you know then but we separated. and it was like it hurts me like my. daughter she has no record recognition. of living with me. do you know what i'm saying it's like. she's like yeah yeah my mom said like. like you used to live like i'm like what. do you mean yeah i used to of course i'd. used to live there you should wake up. when you come to me and i remember. then i'm like. you i need to over extend to build this. relationship because my son has that. we've had that.

waking up him going to sleep waking up. seeing me do you know what i'm saying. and it's just them little things. where it's like. like the kids will come over. and. i'll be like oh we're going to do this. and my daughter might say to me i have. to ask my mom. she's like her concept of a dad was. probably more like an uncle yeah do you. know what i mean like you know like to. your uncle you say no i gotta ask my mom. but not to your dad but. it's like she had to i was like no no i. mean i'm on the same level. do you know what i'm saying but because.

she's not seeing me every day. like or waking up to me or do you know. what i mean i'm not tucking her in i was. just like bro. i had to that it was so important that. we we get here we get here we get and. we're here now but it took. it takes time to rebuild man so it's. better. you build it than have to rebuild as. well. what if um you know when you were shot. on those cds and trying to get people to. buy those first thousand cities from. your mixtape line for my mixtape. what if it just hadn't worked out.

has that ever crossed your mind what if. just you know. what if it didn't didn't work out. it had to. it had to like the plan b was revert. back to plan a. anytime you felt like you needed to. remotely think about doing something. else it was revert back to plan a it was. always. it was always going to happen there's a. lot of people that think that and it. just doesn't work out you know like yeah. i want you a little bit just. i think. my need was too much man my need was to.

i. became too good at it like the obsession. made me better made me more hungry. i just i just became a monster man i. just. i'm like no one can rap like a rap do. you know what i'm saying but that's. because. i'm listening to everyone rapping and. i'm like all right cool how. right this is what they're doing yeah. like all right triple rhymes cool i'll. do quadruple do you get i'm saying like. i was always. trying to challenge trying to push. trying to push trying to push and like.

when you've been rapping like when your. year group is like gets volcano or i. mean or giggs or whatever like that. that's like man's age group they're my. age mate so it's like when. you're listening to gets and he's doing. that you're like cool i can't even. flip a second you know i'm saying i've. got a i've got a push i've got a push. i've got a push i can't it had to happen. man. i don't see any the story wasn't ending. any other way or like the story wasn't. having any other middle and what would. you say to musicians that you know are.

now coming up in this world of tick tock. and. you know what what do they what do you. think they need to to make it and to. follow in your footsteps. i mean now that you also know the. industry as well in the mechanics of. that because tick-tock is tick-tock is. powerful now man. it's the new. taste makers the new. the library yes the new discovery man. and it's like. so remember when i said that there was a. formula. and it was like if that dj plays it. first on thursday and then.

tick tock is a part of that formula now. like you put a song on that sounds a. certain way it gets a certain amount of. views. and. that's an indicator to the record labels. that this song is going to be. amongst. you know on the playing field of the hit. playing field. it's it's become that. and i think you can use it to your. advantage but i guess. once again like. the part we are in control of.

is the song is the quality. like. always make sure the quality is. top-notch regardless because all the. things everything else will change bro. like michael jackson put out. tapes. vinyls. now. chris brown goes. on streaming platforms do you know what. i'm saying and. i launched records on radio first now. they launched records on tick-tock foot. like the everything will change well but.

the quality. will always remain. you can't skip it you can't skip leg day. man. you're at me then. we have a closing tradition on this. podcast where um the last guest writes. the question for the next guest. and they don't know who they're writing. it for they always ask but we never tell. them so they've actually written two. questions which is interesting the the. first question they wrote i'm going to. read them both at the same time is. what for you is the life well-lived and. then they wrote how do you make the most. of this moment.

so what for you as a life well lived and. how do you make the most of this moment. a life well lived. is. waking up every day. and having multiple reasons to smile. and within that making multiple people. smile. um i always think like. life is a record it's not a record. put the needle on.

and it comes inwards. so it's coming inwards just getting. smaller and smaller and smaller then it. gets to the end in the middle and it. stops. and my thing is like. what song are you listening to. why your. your your time span is shooting and is. it. something that's. that's that's that's full of purpose. something that's making you smile and. something that's. energizing other people. and. and and for me it's like.

i want to be able to be. a positive soundtrack. for key moments in other people's lives. as well. so life well-lived is me being happy. bringing happiness. and being able to. also add. a soundtrack. to people's happiest moments. though very part sir and then the second. question was how do you make the most of. this moment how do i make the most of. this moment live in it man. live in it. and i think.

appreciate it as well. i think um. i say living it because. it's it's it's easy to be on that train. i keep going back to that train it's. easy to be on that train and just to. keep going keep going keep going but. for me. we don't meet anyone for no reason. there's no meaningless conversation. you know there's always something to. take from a conversation that you. thought what the hell was that about do. you know what i'm saying. because we're all bro we're all like.

we're all seeds bro we're all seeds that. grow into fruit bro we're all seed so if. you're you're having a conversation. someone's planting something that can. become fruitful later on. so. to make the best of this moment just. live in it. do you know i mean don't just be in it. live in it man be present. thank you thank you thank you it's been. such a great conversation and it's a. real privilege to me like i said i've. been a student for a long time and i'm. still a mega fan um.

all right upon reflection. i think it's probably gonna be. in my little spotify rap thing as some. of the most. played song album that i think you've. released recently and uh yeah it was. that 2019 yeah it feels like it was you. know it feels like it was more recent. than that for some reason maybe that's. because i still spin it but tasmanian we. lost two years as well in it no no i. genuinely say this i have i have this. debate with my my one of my. long-standing best friends and i. genuinely think lyrically in terms of. subject matter and art i think you're.

the goat in our country so thank you and. i think a lot of people share that. opinion so it's a huge honor to have you. here and then your wisdom thank you. brother love man thank you. [Music]. foreign. [Music].