World No.1 Divorce Lawyer: If You Do This, Your Marriage Is Already Over.

If you had to give one relationship. ritual to stay in love, what would that. be? Once a week, tell your [music]. partner three things that you love about. them and three things they could have. done better. >> But some people thinking, well, and if I. told Dave that we're going to start. writing these notes to each other, he's. going to cringe [music] and not going to. do it. [ __ ] Honestly, Dave can't. name three things he likes about you. Really, Dave? Is that a big ask? I. absolutely call bull on that. The bigger. question is what's uncomfortable about. that for you? And look, I'm not a. therapist. I'm a divorce lawyer. I. represent some of the most high.

achieving minds, athletes, entrepreneurs, and they're just as bad. at this as anybody because there's a. part of us that's afraid to poke at what. do you love about me? What am I getting. wrong? And it's not just romantic. relationships. Like, my mom died 10 years ago after a long. battle with cancer. There was a lot between us that needed. to be said and [music] wasn't said. And there's a part of me that wishes she. was here so that I could have apologized.

[music] for some things I got wrong. But. we don't do that because people just. don't want temporary discomfort. [music]. And so I think there's something deeply. courageous about love, about commitment, about saying I'm going to give them the. opportunity to hurt me. Like it's scary, [music] but I'm brave. You know, your. marriage will end. It ends in death or. divorce. And for two people at the end. of their relationship to say, "This. person helped me become the most. authentic version of myself." That's the. greatest gift you could give to another.

human being. And as you can see from. this photo, I just proposed to my. fiance. I'd like some advice on how not. to mess this up. Like if my fiance ends. up walking into your practice, what is. the reason she's likely to end up there? The number one reason that I'm going to. have a woman sitting across from me, divorcing someone who's a great. provider, great protector is. >> that is not obvious to everybody. >> and it'll keep me in business for the. rest of my life.

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um if you do hit the subscribe button, I. won't let you down and we'll continue to. find small ways to make this whole. production better. Thank you so much for. being part of this journey. Means the. world. And uh yeah, let's do this. [music]. [singing]. James, as you can see from this photo, I just. proposed to my fiance and gladly she. said yes. So, I've brought you here in. part because I'd like some advice on how. not to mess this up because I know from. speaking to you previously about 50% of.

people that get down on their knee end. up messing it up in some way. Before we. get into this though, and before you. help me figure out how to stay in love. and not mess it up. >> Yeah. >> Where do you find us at as it relates to. love as a society? If you were to zoom. out and diagnose society's relationship. with the subject of love and their um. ability to keep it, find it, and. understand it, where are we? >> I think we we're in this really. uncomfortable moment as a culture. I. think we we want more than anything to.

feel real connection. I think we're sick. of just looking at screens. I think we. came out of the pandemic with a feeling. of, okay, I want to be in the world with. other people and feel the warmth of real. people. And yet, we have an increasingly. lower number of useful tools in finding. connection and staying connected, which. are two totally different skills. And.

yet we're yearning for it more than. ever. So we're more hungry than we've. ever been and we have no idea how to. cook. >> in your head because you've seen so many. people go through divorce and. relationships fail. >> There must be a sort of checklist of. things that I'm likely to mess up. >> Yeah. I mean, well, you know, first of. all, when I when I knew you, you know, heard you got engaged, >> I was thrilled because I'm always. cheering for people. I really am. I'm. always cheering for love. And so I think.

in our prior conversations, you're. obviously someone who loves very deeply. and and the fact that you found this. person, you know, [clears throat] to me. is the most lovely thing. You know, I I. think at its core, this is your favorite. person. I just can't think of anything. more lovely than that. Like the idea. that you would look at a person and go, "You're my favorite person." And and. that person would look at you and say, "You're my favorite person." And that. you would know that it's true. like when. they say it that it's true. Like that. that feels to me like something worth.

pursuing. That feels like something that. if I tried to get it and I failed, I'd. try again because if you could find it, it's just about the greatest thing in. the world. Like the the thought to me. that, you know, I I I won't get to give. a toast at your wedding, but I will say. that if I was going to give the toast, it would be that there are two wishes I. have for you. You know, your marriage. will end. I mean, I've said it to you. before in one of our first. conversations. Every marriage ends. It. ends in death or divorce. I hope yours. ends in death. And I hope when it ends.

in death that let's send you off first. that when you're dying that she will say. hopefully to you or to those around, you helped me become the most authentic. version of myself and you're still my. favorite person. Because I can't think of a greater. blessing than that. like for two people. at the end of their life, at the end of. their relationship to say, "This person. helped me become the most authentic.

version of myself and they're still my. favorite person." That's the greatest. gift you could give to another human. being, I think. And I like the idea that. even in the face of knowing that this is. risky, this is something that may not. work, this is something that. statistically the odds are against, but. I'm going to give it a shot because, you. know, there's something it adds to my. life and there's something I add to her. life and, you know, we're going to we're. going to give it a shot. I don't know. I. found that very beautiful. As a divorce.

lawyer who is also a very big fan of. love, do you ever find yourself trying. to get someone not to get a divorce, has. there ever been an instance where you. you looked at the situation and thought, you know what, they should just get back. together? Yeah. I what I'll say is my. first thought is often, is this person accurately perceiving the. situation that they're in? So people. will come in and they'll say, you know, it really people come to me in very. different situations. So sometimes. people will come to me and they're.

they're they've been served with divorce. papers like the marriage is over and now. it's about okay we have to react. defensively. So you know when people. come to my office the situation is often. so dire and so broken that they're. coming in to hire me for that specific. purpose. But I will say without question. that if I get any sense that this person. would either a benefit from individual. therapy that might help them view the. relationship differently and come to the.

relationship differently. I will not. hesitate to refer them. And then there. are people that and it's more common. than you'd think that something awful. has happened in the relationship. They. had an affair and got caught. they. caught their spouse having an affair. Uh. they've lost their job and it created. tremendous discord in their. relationship. And that often will feel. to me like something that perhaps would. benefit from the intervention of mental. health professionals or everyone just.

taking a breath and taking a minute, especially when there's kids involved, but even when there aren't. >> Are your clients predominantly men or. women? >> It's pretty much an even split really. >> Yeah. I represent a lot of either very. high achieving high- netw worth. individuals or people married to them. >> And are the reasons that they come to. you, those two different groups, >> different? >> Like the reason why they want a. separation, is it fundamentally. different? >> So the specific example of cheating, I. would say men get caught cheating more.

often than women. >> Does that mean they cheat more? >> No, it means they get caught cheating. more. I I don't think that anyone could. really truly accurately say, you know, I. know people love statistics and I know. that that, you know, guests have a. tendency to come out and say, well, 72%. of people who are everything I'm saying. is based on what I've observed in 25. years of facilitating the demise of. marriages. Men and women both cheat. Men. cheat in just more scattershot stupid.

ways than women do. When women cheat, in. my experience professionally, it's. usually an indication of like the it's. the absolute end of this relationship. The relationship is over and this is. either a soft place to land or it's sort. of a final opportunity for this person. to solidify, this woman to solidify in. her head that yeah, this thing is over. Whereas men, I I've really had hundreds. at this point of men sit across from me. who've been caught in an affair or sense.

that they're about to get caught in an. affair and they say to me like, "Yeah, this had nothing to do with my wife. Like, I love my wife. It had nothing to. do with that. It just I don't know. I. just I don't know why I did what I did. I just did it." And I I know everyone. kind of wants to because in civilized. society it feels good to kind of go like. I can't believe that. That's how could. someone say that? But shut up. Like if. you have you have potato chips in your. cabinet, you know, you you you know that.

you're not supposed to eat them. You. don't want to eat them. You want vibrant. good health. You want to take care of. your but they're there. They're there. And you're human. And like I can control. my food environment better than my. brain. Like I have a lot of resolve when. I wake up in the morning. But at about 7. 8:00 at night when I'm a little bit. tired and it's been a long day and I. deserve something nice, if the potato. chips are there, I'm eating the potato. chips. Like, we're human. We're human. There are times where we're just feeling. lonely or hungry or angry or tired or.

some combination of those factors. and. this warm thing like the connection to. another person, the the joy of. flirtation, the excitement of of feeling. the energy between yourself and whatever. it is type of person that you're. attracted to. I think it's very normal. And then the problem becomes that you're. not thinking about the consequences of. those things. If you were thinking about. the consequences of those things, you'd. make better choices. But we all know. that discipline is trading what you want. now for what you want most. And.

sometimes it's hard to remember what you. want most and to keep it in your line of. sight. >> So from your experience, you know, if my. fiance someday ends up walking into your. practice, what is the. reason she's likely to end up there from. her perspective asking you to help her. get out of the relationship with me? the most obvious, if you're going to be. like the most the average, the. statistical average, it would be that. you've stopped seeing her and stopped. noticing her in in the list of things. that are important to Steven, that she's.

somewhere in the middle to bottom of. that list. Like for for a high achiever. like you, for someone who's. entrepreneurial in the manner that you. are, for someone who, you know, lives. the kind of lifestyle that you do where. you're on this coast one day and this. country another day and flying here on a. moment's notice and getting invitations. to interesting things and you have to. triage because you couldn't possibly do. all the things that you'd like to do. It. usually would be that she just feels. herself slipping in the rankings. And I.

think that that is often not a function. of what you're like that lifestyle I. just described. It's a function of where. you take time to fit her into that. Because I genuinely have found. tremendous number of examples of people. who and this is in the relationship work. who have that level of intensity in. their life and that level of chaos in. their schedule and it's unpredictable. but they have that ability every morning. or every afternoon or every once in a. while but consistently to say hey I have.

a minute between recordings. I just. wanted you to know I was thinking of. you. Or hey, you know, I heard that song. when I was in the car from here to here. and it makes me think of you and I can't. wait to see you next week. You know, something like that to me, like how hard. is that? By the way, doesn't have to be. like a global lifestyle. It could even. be, hey, we got a couple of kids and two. dogs and you know, my my mom is sick and. I got to tend to her so I'm super busy.

But how do you let your partner know, hey, you're still really important. we're still really connected to each. other because that's the number one. complaint. That's the number one reason, particularly with women, that I'm going. to have a woman sitting across from me. divorcing someone who's a great. provider, great protector, great all of. those things. >> That is not obvious to everybody. And. I'll be honest, it's not it wasn't. necessarily obvious to me. The way that. I operate naturally, and this is just. the way that I am. I've spoken to so. many of my friends to understand how. they operate and the way that their.

brain works is when I'm here. >> The only thing I'm thinking about is. this. >> and I almost I'm remarkable at. forgetting everything else. >> and and being completely here. >> Now that sounds like a good thing, >> but it also means that I can lose 14. hours and forget to to check in. I can. forget, you know. >> Is it is it also true when you're with. her? Yes. When we have scheduled the. time. >> Good. >> So, you know, when we schedule the time. to go and do something together, I'm I'm. there. I'm not on my phone. I'm not.

doing anything else. >> Good. I think that's a tremendous. priority. I'm hearing more and more from. people the feeling of, yeah, we're. together, but we're not together. We're. sitting there and they're on their phone. or they're doing other things. And I. think that it's really really important. that one of the really important aspects. of relationship be that there is time. where you give each other that level of. focus. But again, you know, like it's. just not something we are necessarily. taught. We have maybe we have our.

parents as models, but very often. they're they're not good models. >> What's interesting here as well is for. some reason I've chosen someone who's. like the opposite of me in terms of the. way that I. >> partly because she Yeah, probably. And. when I've spoken to some of my friends. who are quite like me, they've also. chosen partners who are the opposite of. them. >> Could you imagine? I know. >> Could you imagine two of you? Like. imagine me with me, you know, you with. you. That would like it would be so. intense. But. >> this is why it becomes so easy to. misunderstand because we go through life. assuming the other person has the same.

perspective as we do. >> and they feel the same way that we do. about things. And. >> but what's the solution to that? I've. had to learn. to. check in. >> Yeah. But don't you think she loves that. about you? >> She does. She actually just sent me a. message this morning saying, "Thank you. so much." Because I said when I left. this time, I said, "Listen, I'm going to. FaceTime you every day, >> even if it's for just one minute.". [laughter]. >> Yeah. >> So, >> isn't that lovely, though? You're still. trying to figure out how can I be better. at this thing? And that's amazing.

That's a beautiful thing. You know. what's so funny is if I walked into your. home and on the table there was, you. know, the power of habit by during or. the seven habits of highly effective. people, I would go, "Oh, look at look at. Stephen. He's still so successful. He's. still trying to sharpen the point of the. spear. Amazing." You know, but if you. walk in and you see a book, you know, how to stay in love, you go, "Things all. right with Stephen? Like things going. okay? What's going on with the. relationship?" Why? Why don't we as a. society just acknowledge we're we're.

kind of bad at this? We're kind of bad. at maintaining connection. We're kind of. bad at helping like feeling loved and. feeling worthy of love and helping our. partner feel loved and figuring out how. to maintain connection. And maybe the. key is that little thing, that one. minute facetime, that one minute of. saying, "Hey, maybe we should try this. other thing." What are you actually. saying? What you're actually saying is, "I want to be good at this job. How can.

I be good at this job? How can I stay. good at it? How can I get even better at. it?" Like, we go for the job interview. and we want this job so bad. Like, that's what dating is. Dating is I'm. sending my resume all over the place. I'm sending it all over the place. I. hope I can find something, something. that suits my skills and my needs and. where they want me and I'll be well. compensated and I'll get something from. it and I'll give something to it because. I have all this talent and I have all. this stuff and I want to give it to a. worthy cause and I want to be. compensated for that and I want to feel. part of something. That's all dating is.

is it's a job interview and then you get. the job and for a little while you're. like I got the job. It's the oh my god. you should see the office is amazing and. you should and I could I knew exactly. what's going you know there's room for. growth. There's room for growth in this. job. It's going to be great, you know, and I I really feel like there's room. for advancement. Like, this could be the. job. This could be my career. This could. be my vocation. It could be meaningful. and wonderful. I think I have something. I could contribute to. And we're so. excited. And you jump ahead 3 years. later and we're like, that [ __ ] job. That job. Yeah. No, I got to go to work.

again. Like, yep. All right. Here we go. That's it. You know, I got a friend who. just got the best job. Oh my god. They. had their they got the great and that's. all we instead of trying to remember. that at some point the relationship that. you're in was something you aspired to. like the idea that you were someday. going to find a person who just was your. favorite person and you were their. favorite person and you were going to be. there for each other and see each.

other's blind spots and help each other. like figure out who you are and be it. and that you were going to grow together. and change together. And some core. things would stay exactly the same. And. some things would change in beautiful, meaningful ways. And you'd see each. other through amazing things and. terrible things and all the things that. the world throws at you. You'd never be. alone again because you'd have this. person like, and somehow. it's considered sort of odd to check in.

and want to be good at that job and have. performance reviews. Like, you run. teams. you run so many teams. How how. often do you go, we don't need to have. performance reviews? >> I think at the heart of this is we. assume probably through media and social. media that relationships are supposed to. be effortless. >> Why? >> I don't just kind of what you see, right? Like I remember I remember um my. girlfriend telling me the other day, she. was like, "Oh, there's this couple I. follow on Instagram and they're like. amazing. um they're like the perfect.

couple and it's just just turned out. that the guy is sleeping with someone. else. >> Yeah. And I thought and again I thought. well that watch my girlfriend. vicariously watching that couple for the. last 5 years has probably increased her. expectations on what a relationship. should be cuz she's just had this sort. of two dimensional window but there was. some. the natural mess of relationship was. taking place outside of you and we all. just have the 2D window like. relationship problems on Instagram. broadcasting that doesn't doesn't drive. [clears throat] followership. No. And. what what what I'll also say is look, we.

formulate a lot of our conception of. what a relationship should look like by. portrayals of relationships in film and. television, right? Yeah. Okay. So, >> can we agree that the romcom or the. romantic film. is basically just an emotional version. of pornography? like it's a stylized. excerted falsehood that's designed to. amplify the the most visually and.

emotionally compelling or stimulating. aspects of things like yes there's. conflict but it gets cleaned up very. neatly and very nicely like there's it's. so this perception that that. relationships should be effortless. is based I think on largely that which. is this feeling that and again whether a. story is a comedy or a tragedy depends. and where you end the story, right? So, we always end the story in a spot where. it's like, "Tada, they're in love and. they walk off hand in hand." But, right,

they walk off into life. They walk off. into this ecosystem of life that's. filled with complexity and there's. factors beyond our control that are. impacting our emotional state, the. emotional state of our partner, the you, the me, and the Wii. So, there's a lot. going on and and the thought that, well, this should be effortless. everything. else is a lot of work and potentially. and by the way the opposite. like this is effortless and this is a. drudgery and we tend to just see things.

in that binary way unnecessarily like. we've made so much progress as a society. when it comes to not viewing everything. in a binary like there's there's not as. much rigidity about gender roles anymore. there's not as rigidity about you know. are you a worker are you like a career. person or a family person like there's a. sense of weight. You can kind of be a. little bit of both. Like look at these. things as a spectrum a little bit. So, but this we're still pretty glued into. this idea that like relationships are.

supposed to be the smoothest, easiest. thing or relationships are hard work. You're not supposed to be happy all the. time. And shut up if you think that. that's what you oh you're not happy. Nobody's happy or you're not supposed to. be happy. That's not the point of. marriage. The point of marriage is a. commitment. >> Are relationships supposed to be simple? >> I don't know what you mean by simple. Simple to navigate? No, they're. obviously not simple to navigate because. 56% of them end in divorce. >> Is it going to be hard? >> If your definition of hard is I have to. pay some level of attention to it, then.

yes, it's going to be hard. Is that. hard? Like, is that hard? Really? Is. that hard? Like, I don't think it's that. hard. Paying attention isn't that hard. Remembering to pay attention might be. hard, but don't you create reminders for. yourself? You've got so many gadgets and. you can't have some reminder in the day. of like, oh. her, keep her in my line of sight. Again, it doesn't mean you don't love.

her, that she's not front of mind. It. means you're a driven, hardworking. person. I'm a driven, hardworking. person. There's tons of times where very. important things in my life aren't front. of mind. But that's why I use reminders. >> So to invert that question that I asked. at the top of this, if I am to come to. you at some point in the future, James, and I say, "Listen, I need a divorce.". >> What am I likely to give as the reason. for that based on, you know, who I am. and how that correlates to the clients. like me that you deal with? >> Yeah. So the reason you're going to give.

and the underlying reason is different. So, the the reason you're going to give. is going to be a practical reason, which. is either I've met someone else, she's. met someone else, um we've had a. terrible fight and uh I've said things. that we can't take back. I had a. spectacular failure financially and. she's just bailing on me because she. sees that the future's really rocky or. she made some terrible decision and did. something awful that's a betrayal that I. can't abide by. But again, that's the.

presenting reason. Underneath that is the bigger reason, which is we lost the plot. We lost the plot. Like that that's a. that's the start of a chapter in a. story. It's the end of a chapter and the. start of a chapter. That photo like the. first chapter in that story was was was. this person and this person wandering. around on the same planet trying to. figure it out, trying to figure out what. they're doing. And they have their. origin story and they have their you.

know their complimentary pathologies. that developed over time and then you. know they found each other. 8 billion. people in the world and somehow their. paths intersected you know and they. started to have this connection and so. there was the you and there was the me. and then there was the Wii and that ven. diagram started right and then you start. to fill it with things you fill it with. people. You fill it with experiences. And this is just a stop along the way.

like this. These two people, this is. just a moment. It's an incredible. moment. It can be like kuman. It can be. like a moment that there was this and. then everything after this. It's a. punctuation mark. Like I like to say. that life has punctuation marks. Like. you had a kid, you lost your job, you. got a job, whatever. Those are. punctuation marks. This is a big. punctuation mark. And it will either be. you know the beginning of the end or the. end of the beginning. You get to write.

that. You get to write that chapter. But. this is a moment for me. The reason why. this is a beautiful moment is this is a. moment of tremendous optimism. This is a. moment where the two of you said you're. my favorite person and and I I want to. write this next chapter with you as as. having a different title in it. But. really, like the title's just a symbol. The the ring is just a symbol. It's just. a symbol of a commitment. It's a symbol.

of of a promise. And all a promises is a. symbol of intention. That's all. It's. just an intention. Our intention is. we're not going to be alone anymore. We're going to do this together. And by. the way, you're already not alone. The. fact that you got to this place that you. would ask this question, that that's a. beautiful confirmation of the fact that. you don't feel alone. >> We would have lost the plot. Yeah. Yeah. You would have lost the plot. of the story. I So, this is a story. Where does this story go? Where do you. want it to go? You want it to go to a.

future that features the two of you old. together someday. Maybe it features. children. Maybe it features companion. animals. >> And what what is the most likely reason. that we would lose the plot? >> You stop paying attention. >> You stop you stop doing what you're. currently do. How did you get to this. beautiful moment? You start doing the. opposite. You got to this moment by. paying attention. You got to this moment. by making this a priority. You got to. this moment by by keeping this front of.

mind. By valuing what is this but a. symbol of you are valuable to me. Why. did you get on one knee? Why do you get. on one knee? I mean, think about the. symbols of all of this. We live in a. world of symbols. Like the outfit I'm. wearing, I'm saying something to you. I. take this seriously. That's why you wear. a suit. is you wear a suit to say I take. this seriously. So what why did you do. this? What is this as simple? I'm down. on one knee. Why? I'm humbling myself in. front of you. I'm offering something to.

you. I'm hoping you will accept the gift. I am giving to you. Like there's. something very lovely about that symbol. >> Is this is this what you call slippage? >> Slippage is exactly when you start to. unintentionally again people rarely have. slippage intentionally. It's usually. that, okay, we got that knocked out. Now. we can focus on the other stuff. And. that's slippage. Slippage is these small. disconnections. Small disconnections.

that in of themselves mean nothing. Like. no single raindrops responsible for the. flood. That little raindrop, it's just a. little raindrop. That's all it really. is. But slippage is this gradually. increasing number of small. disconnections that eventually leads to. the giant marriage killer that you come. in and say, "Here's why we're getting. divorced." But it wasn't that. It it was. all these little pieces, but at some.

point you were there. >> Do you think people. spot the slippage in the moment, but. they don't think it's big enough to. fight about or do something about? >> 100%. And that's that's the cognitive. bias. That's the fallacy that will keep. me in business for the rest of my life. because people just don't want temporary. discomfort. Like our desire for joy. versus our aversion to pain, our. aversion to pain will win every single.

time. We know this. That's why there was. an opiate crisis more so than a cocaine. crisis. Because one of those things is. about making you feel really good and. the other is about getting rid of pain. Like the the human desire any scientist. will tell you this ask our friend Andrew. Huberman ask anybody they will tell you. the human desire to escape pain is the. controlling aspect of self. So escaping. pain even discomfort even dis and again.

this is this is pushed by the narrative. that love should be easy. If you're. going to make if anything's. uncomfortable about it, you must be. doing it wrong. Maybe you're not with. your soulmate. You know, it would be so. easy and effortless. You'd always know. what the other person wanted. You'd. never have to tell them. They would. know. They would know you well enough to. know what it is that you need. And they. would get you. Even though, by the way, really, really like I'm 53 years old. I've been in therapy for 20 years. I get like 70% of this guy, I think,

like at best. Like, and I'm in here. I'm. in here and I get about 70% of this guy. Like, and I'm supposed to get you a. 100%. Because we're exchanging bodily fluids. Like, we're I'm supposed to just cuz. we've slept in the same bed, I'm. supposed to get you 100% and get ahead. of stuff. Like, I get me 70%. And that's. with a lot of reflection. So, I I really. think that it's wildly unfair for us to. to to think that, you know, this should.

be effortless, this should be easy, and. that it should never be uncomfortable. It's okay to be like I I think because. of what I do for a living, I have to. tell people things they don't want to. hear all day because it's true. And I. tell them what they need to hear and not. what they want to hear. And you know, when clients say to me at the end of a. consultation or conversation like, "Oh. my god, I feel so much better." better. I always go, "That's great. That wasn't. my intention." Because I don't want. anyone I talk to professionally to think. I am telling you something to make you. feel better. I'm not here to make you.

feel better. I'm not a therapist. I'm. here to tell you the truth. And if the. truth makes you feel better, great. If. the truth makes you uncomfortable, at. least you know the truth now. So, I feel. like in relationship again, if what you. want most is lasting lifelong connection. where we get each other as best we can, we can help each other navigate self and. each other as best we can and we cannot. lose the plot of a story that is really.

beautiful right now. So, everybody. listening can probably think about. something in their relationship which. has gotten a little bit worse. >> since they first got into that. relationship. And it could be the way. that they argue is getting a little bit. worse. They're not listening as much. >> Maybe the voice the the tone has gone up. or it's getting a little bit more angry. >> Um, whatever it is in their. relationship, what do they need to do. now? It's like it's not flooded yet. >> Yeah. >> But there's. >> best time to look at it, best time to. talk about it. There's a puddle.

>> So, what I do for a living in court. is I try to manipulate people's. emotional state. That's my job. Like, my. job is to go and make the judge like my. client, dislike the other side. I want. the other side to feel scared. I want my. client to feel safe. I want the court. reporter who's taking things down and. the court officer to like me and to like. my client so that when we take a break. in testimony and they go in the back. with the judge, they go, "I like Jim. He's a really good lawyer." Or, "Oh, his. client seems so nice." Or, "Boy, the. other guy seems like a jerk." Or, "Boy, that other lawyer is a jerk." Like so. I'm here manipulating people's emotional.

state. That's my job. Like that's what a. trial lawyer does. We manipulate. people's emotional state. We play with. the levers, right? So I say this as to. say. we should be doing this in our. relationships. There's nothing nefarious. about that. These are tools and how you. use them will will give you a sense of. whether it's good or bad or what. Look, if what you are doing is to maintain. connection, how you parse it is going to. be everything. So, even the way you just.

said that, like, well, something's kind. of going wrong in the relationship. Okay, we're already off to the wrong. narrative because when someone tells you. something's been done wrong, there's. this automatic defensive response of, well, I didn't mean to do it wrong and. well, you know, it's not my fault that I. did it wrong. It brings out something. defensive in us rather than saying. something's changed. Have you noticed. that something changed? Have you noticed. that remember when we used to talk to. each other about you know sometimes like. and I don't know if it's something that. I've done and if it is you know I I I. really would appreciate you telling me.

but like when we have been fighting. lately like that the tone seems to have. changed. Have you noticed that? Is it. just me? I now it's a non-defensive. dialogue. I'm not accusing you of. something. I'm noting that something has. changed. And by the way, good. We love. each look at how much we love each other. in that picture. Like look at put the. wedding photos up somewhere. Look at. that moment. We were nuts about each. other in that moment. We were everything. the other person ever wanted and more.

So anytime something has changed from. that, don't you want to know? Don't you. want to know? And by the way, not in an. accusatory fashion. The most common one. is we're not having sex as much as we. used to. We're not having sex. We're not. having much sex. I'm not getting as much. oral sex as I used to get. We're not. getting Okay, there's a way to say that. the way I just said it. That's just. going to blow up in your face. It's not. going to work because it's, well, well, YOU HAVEN'T BEEN AROUND AS MUCH. WELL, I. HAVEN'T BEEN AROUND AS much cuz I'm. working so much and I don't see you. spending less. Well, you know, honestly,

if it comes down to that, I'd spend a. lot to not have you treat me this way. Now, we're just having a fight. Whereas, if we say like, oh, remember how clo. remember when we went away? I was just. thinking yesterday about when we went. away that weekend. Remember we ended up. not even leaving the room? It was so. fun. I love when we're like feeling that. connected and close, you know? I feel. like I feel like lately sometimes like. we're maybe not as connected and close. like and if there's something I'm I'm. doing that's making that like I I really. want to get it right. Like I really want. to get it right. You know, there's. something about.

apologizing first, like having some. humility in relationship that has. tremendous value. Like when a lawyer. like I'll I'll tell you one of my trade. secrets. You know, I my job is a very. combative job sometimes. So, there's. times where being very aggressive is the. right move. But there's times where. being aggressive just doesn't accomplish. anything. And if I'm interacting with a. lawyer for the first time, this is. someone I haven't had cases with. So, we. don't know each other except by. reputation and they come at me really. hard, the first thing I'll do is.

apologize. I'll say, "You know, I I I'm. sorry. I just have to say like your tone. like you're coming at me like it if I. said something in our initial. interaction that made you feel like that. I didn't have respect for you or that. you know I didn't value your perspective. or like it I have a tendency to. interrupt people sometimes I have a. tendency to so if I offended you I. apologize because the way that you're. kind of talking to me like I feel like I. must have said something wrong or I must. have so I apologize absolutely if I did.

what is the per what choice do they have. but to then. Oh, no, no, that's that's just my tone. That's just how I Oh, yeah, of course. Look, hey, we all have a game face or I. just felt like, oh my god, like this. guy's coming at me so hard. Like I I. felt like I must have said something. inadvertently or, you know, and and then. everyone's kind of calmer now, you know? So I think that this is a very easy way. to invite discussion about these small. preventative maintenance things without. turning it into a whole like because we. again we just think that oh if I bring.

that up it's going to turn into a whole. thing. It doesn't have to turn into a. whole thing period. >> Yeah. Yeah, I think I asked that in part. because I it's something that I I've. like subtly noticed that when we were. when we first met 7 years ago, we were. much more patient. >> And I'm like, I probably need to have a. conversation about returning to being. more patient when we're trying to solve. problems. We kind of like rush through. them now. And I just I'm like, oh, you. play this forward. >> You play this forward a decade or two. decades. I'm like, damn, we're really.

not going to be great at solving. problems if we don't just like slow down. with them. Yeah. And. >> a lot of that just means like listening. to the other person's point of view a. bit bit more intently. >> Yeah. And that's hard. That's hard. because you know your your brain moves. quickly. Like it's something I struggle. with in relationship for sure. Like any. kind of relationship is I'm very like. all right, come on. We got to land this. plane. Like let's go. Like skip to the. end. Time is money. Like what are we. what are we doing? Where are we going. with this? Like and I I'm terrible at. it. I interrupt people constantly. Like. I'm I'm not good at that. And it's. something I'm working on because I I I.

think I know what they have to say next. And I'm wrong a lot of the time, especially in relationship, I'm wrong. Like it's not a popular opinion to say. that men and women are different, but. men and women are different. And and and. I don't say that to say one is superior. and one is inferior. I say that to say. that we're different. We we navigate. things differently. We experience life. differently. We're treated differently. from a societal standpoint. We've had. different life experiences and I.

genuinely believe that it would be very. valuable for us in relationship to to. sort of think, hey, I don't really know. everything about how this person is. wired. It took me fully. 40 some odd years, if not 50, to figure. out that if I'm in a romantic. relationship with a woman and she comes. home and starts telling me about. something that's upsetting to her, that. she doesn't want what my male friends. want. Like if I called a buddy of mine,

if I called you, I've called you before. If I called you and I said, "Stephen, I'm having this problem, man. I'm. dealing with one of my sons and he's. doing XYZ." I ex if you went, "That must. be very hard, Jim. I'd be like, "Yes, it. is, Stephen. That's why I called you. Do. you have any suggestions? Like, what do. you think I should do here? Like, you're. a smart guy. I called you cuz I wanted. you to help me." Very often, that is the. opposite. Most women want you to hear. them. Give them some support. You guys. can have this conversation. A couple can.

have this conversation. You can say, "Hey, listen. right now in this moment, we're not you're not coming to me with a. problem. But when you come to me with a. problem, my natural proclivity is to. start throwing solutions. And I've I've. learned or I I heard Stexton say on. Steven's show that, you know, maybe. that's not the best way. Do you find. that's true? Like, do you want me to. maybe like when you say these things, could I because again, this is a job. I. want to be good at this job. Why Why is.

it wrong for me to ask you how to how. can I be better at this job? I found it. really useful to state explicitly to my. fiance what my needs are in those. situations. And again, it didn't come. naturally to her and vice versa. Like it. didn't what she needs from me in those. situations. is the opposite of what I need from her. in those situations. I'm thinking. particularly when she's like going. through something and she's struggling. with something. She wants me to. be be present and she.

um often wants like some advice on it. and she. and her advice is like the opposite of. mine often and in the inverse when I'm. going through those situations. I actually. don't want to talk about it at all. >> Yeah. >> I just wanted to be there. >> Yeah. Yeah. But please, >> she wants to talk about I don't want to. talk about it. >> But what but what would be wrong with. saying in that moment?

I've got a menu. I've got a menu for you. Can you tell me. which one you want? Cuz just like just. like you said, you're hungry. And I. said, "What are you hungry for? Do you. want sushi? Do you want me to make you. something? Do you want some cheese. toast? Do you want us to go out. someplace and we can get burgers? What. is it you want?" Right? Couldn't you. just say, "Hey, I've got a menu. I can. just listen and tell you I love you and. just be here. I can give you some.

solutions and and how I might handle the. problem. I can try to distract you and. tell you a funny story about something. that happened to me today or I can pick. you up and tickle you. We can go in the. other room and roll around in the sheets. for a little while and take your mind. off it and then we can figure out which. of the other options you might want. We. can go for a walk together and we can. talk about it or not talk about it. What. would you like on the menu? Because. that's I'm serving all of those things. for you. Which one would you like? And. the worst thing she could say is, "I. don't know." And you go, "Okay, then I'm.

going to pick one. I'm going to pick. one. And if it feels good, great. And if. it doesn't, you'll tell me, okay? And I. won't be offended." Like again, what'. that take, Stephen? 30 seconds. 30. seconds. Throw that out there. Like. that. That's instead of just blindly. throwing darts at the target, not. knowing where the target is. >> If you had to give everybody listening. one relationship ritual that you would. think would most increase the. probability that they stay together,

stay in love. >> What would that relationship ritual be? >> I think that once a week you should make. a specific task of telling your partner. three things that you really like about. them. And every week it should be something. different. I think you should tell your. partner if you really want to want to. take the advanced edition of this. If. you want to turn it from a 30- secondond. task into like a whole five minutes that. you devote to your relationship, you. know, I feel about relationship. maintenance the way that if you've ever.

heard the story, I think the Daly Lama. is the one credited with saying it. That's that a high high-end executive, you know, paid a colossal amount of. money to have a private audience with. the Daly Lama. And the Daly Lama said to. him, you know, um, if you're searching. for inner peace, you should meditate for. 15 minutes a day. And the executive. said, I don't have 15 minutes a day to. meditate. He said, then you should. meditate for an hour a day. I feel the. same way. If you don't have five minutes. a week to devote to your spouse or. partner, then you're going to need. hours. I think you should actually set.

aside hours. Like five minutes a week, I. would suggest the following exact s just. systematic basic thing. This is what my. next book is about. out. It's about a. systematic approach to being good at. love. And the idea is. once a week, I think here's the advanced. version, but minimum just write down, send an email, send a text, whatever it. is, tell your partner three things that. you love about them. The advanced version is tell your. partner three things you love about.

them. Tell them three times this week. that they made you feel loved. Here's. three things you did this week that made. me feel loved. Like here's three. When. you sent me that message and said that. made me feel so soft, that made me feel. very loved. Like whatever it is, I'm. sure you could find off the top of your. head three things that she did this week. that made you feel loved. And it's only. Monday. >> People at home are in relationships. right now. They're hearing you say that. and some of them are still not going to. do it. Why do you think they're not. going to do it? Like what is that mental. conversation they're having where they.

go? >> I think we're I Well, I think we're I. think they think it's pointless. I think. they they might be at a point in their. relationship where it feels like what. would be the point we're so far gone it. wouldn't help. I think more than. anything my my real feeling on this the. secret that I don't think people want to. say out loud. I think we're terrified. I think we're. terrified. And I think what we're. terrified of is not. is not the future of our relationship. I.

think what we're terrified of is that we. we feel like we're not worthy of love. I. think it's most people's fundamental. terror. I think most people's. fundamental fear is that if you knew me, you wouldn't love me. If you could see. me, the real me, like the me that's in. here, all the weakness, all the fear, all the horrible selfish thoughts, all. the perversity, all the all the darkest. things that are inside of me and every.

single one of us that if you could if. you saw that, you couldn't possibly love. me. and. the feeling that comes with that which. is so you love the character I'm playing. that's not showing you all those things. I'm just I'm just showing you the best. parts of myself. If you saw the real me, you wouldn't really love me. I think our. greatest fear is that we're not worthy. of love. And I think that there's a part.

of us that's afraid to like poke at what. do you love about me? What do I love. about you? How how what am I getting. wrong? Like again, like finishing that. exercise, you know, here's some things. Here's. three things I love about you. Here's. three things you did this week that made. me feel loved. Here's three things I. could have done better. Or tell me three. things I could have done better. Or tell. your partner three things they could.

have done better. And then if you want. to have a fun one thrown in there, cuz I. think you should end on fun stuff, here's three things you did this week. that made me want to have sex with you. >> I guess some people would. are listening right now and they're. thinking, well, you know, I'm I'm dating. Barry or they think I'm dating Joanne. and she is she is not verbally intimate. in this way. She would, if I suggested. this to her, >> write it down. Don't do it. You don't. have to do it verbally. I think verbally. is too much pressure on people. But but. even written down, if I told Dave that. we're going to start writing these notes. to each other about three things I love,

he's going to cringe and he's. >> [ __ ] [ __ ] Honestly, really, that's that's too hard. It's too much of. an ask. Like Dave, I don't care what. Dave does for a living. Dave could be a. ditch digger for a living who's not. articulate in any way. Dave is moving in. with you. Dave married you. Dave went. out and put his money on the counter and. bought a ring. Dave Dave can't name. three things he likes about you. Really, Dave? Is that a big ask? Is that hard, Dave? Like, come on. That I absolutely. call [ __ ] on that. Maybe he doesn't.

want to. Okay, that's a different. conversation. Why don't you want to? Why? What's uncomfortable about that for. you? >> It is uncomfortable for some people, isn't it? >> Yeah, it's very uncomfortable for some. people. >> It's quite interesting that you could be. in a loving relationship with someone, but also be at some deeper level scared. of intimacy. And I'll be honest, because. it's just me and you, nobody's. listening. >> Sure. Of course. >> I think at some client privilege. >> Yeah. [laughter]. I think at some level I've always been. scared of intimacy. It makes it sound. more conscious than it is,

>> but at some deeper level I've always. been, I don't know, a bit disconnected. intimately when it comes to like. uh being able to articulate. >> these things. We keep it simple. That. that's why I want to keep that simple. I. didn't say what is what is your love for. me rooted in and what is the nature of. our connection and how does it fit into. the broader context like I had a very. challenging relationship with my mother. growing up and I feel like you fill some.

of the wounds that guys we don't need. like Sigman Freud doesn't have to show. up in the relationship. what are three we could do it right now. in this relationship what are three. things I like about you what are three. experiences you and I have had with each. other that made each other laugh. Like. we have a friendship. Like what a joy. that is by the way. Like what a joy it. is to sit across from someone and say, "You know what I like about you?" [ __ ]. man. I I want to hear that list. Like. that's lovely. >> Do you think the whole idea of people.

being avoidant and sort of anxious? You. know, this attachment style and stuff. Do is that does that stuff track to what. you've seen? It does. But you know, I I. also think too like I don't understand. why we treat our connections to other. people differently than things we are. like exercise. Exercise. Okay. Haven't. been to the gym in a while. You go to. the gym, you're going to be sore. You're. not going to be able to lift a lot. You're going to have to start slow. And. for a couple days, you're going to be.

sore. And if you go, oo, I that was I. was very sore after that. I'm not going. back to the gym. Okay. then you're never. going to get fit and you're never going. to get past the sore stage. Cuz if you. go, I'll wait a month and then I'll go. back and do the same thing again. Guess. what? You're just going to You have to. move through the uncomfortable part to. get to the part where it starts to feel. really good and you're not as sore. Yeah, you'll sometimes still be sore. You pushed it a little too hard. Maybe. worked out with Huberman that week. But. you know what? Other weeks like you go, "Hey, I don't feel sore. I just feel. strong and healthy." So, there's going. to be moments where this might feel a.

little weird. It might feel a little. awkward. It might feel a little sore. There might be weeks where that kind of. a simple little practice feels a little. like, oh, it feels a little. uncomfortable. Or, yeah, the list of. things that you did this week that made. me feel loved, I have to reach for it. Okay, great. Isn't that little. uncomfortable conversation that might. prevent slippage? Isn't that little. conversation better than the long-term. impact of having a distance start. growing between the two of you that.

eventually becomes impossible to. navigate because it becomes a chasm. between the two of you? >> Do you think the attachment style theory. has any truth to it from what you've. seen? Do you tend to find people are, you know, there's some people that are. avoidant of intimacy, there's some. people that are anxious, there's some. people in the middle. >> Yeah. I mean, look, I I think that we're. all creatures of our our upbringing, and. I think a lot of our I'm amazed as a. 53-year-old man in therapy how often.

a lot of my challenges are rooted in. seven-year-old Jim. >> As a man that talks so much about love, I'm I'm curious to know what it is that. you still struggle with in terms of, you. know, because I I mean, I know from my. own experience that I can know every I. can know so much. I sit here with. experts all day every day. It's not like. I don't know this stuff. Yeah. >> But then putting it into practice is a. different task. >> Yeah. I mean, it's why you'll never hear. me use myself in my relationships as an. example because I think you can be, you. know, an incredibly skilled person at at.

the theory of something and then in its. practical application, you have your own. unique challenges. I think that using. yourself as the example and your. relationships as an example is dangerous. because I I learned it in my own. professional life when I had a very. friendly divorce. And so my experience. of divorce is the unique function of the. constitution of my ex-wife and of me and. of our unique circumstances that brought. us where we are. So if I use that as the. basis for my analysis of things, I think.

it's a very shallow sample size. I I. know for me. my greatest challenge in every. relationship I've ever had, but even in. my my professional relationships is. acknowledging when I need help. I I. think because I was raised in an. environment where a lot of my needs. weren't met. My father was a very. serious alcoholic. My mother was trying. to tend to a very serious alcoholic.

when I needed something even from a very. young age I I felt a lot of shame. because it wasn't met with you know I'm. hungry for breakfast like of course let. me make you some breakfast it was met. with what you can't make your own. breakfast what's wrong with you and I. [laughter]. it was this guy yeah that was me that. was me Bruce Lee poster and my was Chuck. Norris up there um yeah this is probably. like.

nine nine years old Okinawa and Goju Ryu. karate. This is my room. Yeah, I was. very um very lonely. I was really. lonely. I was really sad. And. um I loved martial arts because there. was this. very clear kind of masculinity on. display, like this protective, strong. superpower that you could build. >> It wasn't just gifted to you. like you.

didn't win the genetic lottery. Like you. could through discipline and practice. you could have this superpower that. would make you feel safe and and that. was what I obsessed about having. There's still a lot of that that person. that young man still in me that is. afraid to ask for help. I wanted to be. someone who I could do do it all for. myself. And I I I wish I could say looking back.

that it was because that was my natural. proclivity is to want to be very. self-actualized, but it really was that. I was just absolutely sad and terrified. that if I asked I'd be shamed if I said. like could you be nice to me that the. answer would be no. So I learned how to do everything like I. cook amazingly well. like I'm good at a. lot of things. I'm good at most things. Almost anything I put my mind to I'm.

good at. But it took me a lot of years. to figure out that that although that. has served me really well and it's built. my career and the security and safety. that came with being so successful and. having financial success and you know. now some level of notoriety. It took me a long time to figure out. that that also has been the greatest. obstacle in my life. And I it it I'm. learning at the age of 53 that this guy.

is like he's still there and talking to. me all the time. And I've learned now. again through my own therapy to say to. him like, "Oh, I hear you. Like, I hear. you. I'm glad you're still there. Like, you don't have to be so scared anymore. I'm not. I'm grateful to him. I think that's the best thing to aspire.

to is to make peace with that. Like I'm. sure in you. there is some little boy. like hiding in some part of his room. feeling very lost and very lonely. And I. don't think there's anything wrong or. weak or not masculine or not strong. about acknowledging that that's still a. voice in your head. And acknowledging that that voice in.

your head, like it it brought you where. you are, but it also held you back in. some ways. And you're never going to get. rid of it. But maybe what you'll do is. hear it for what it is, which is is it's. a voice that was once there really. important to save you. and it did a. really good job of that. But that it's. okay. Like it's okay. You don't have to. beat that out of you, but you don't have. to listen to it either. You don't have. to let it drive the car. >> I was thinking as you were speaking. about how those of us that Do you want.

me to take this foot back? >> Oh, but it's great. It's fun to see that. guy. I It's funny that you you pulled. that out. I have to tell you, I I It's a. lovely It's a lovely thing. I think there's something to learn from. those versions of oursel. Like if you hang out with kids, you you just see like. >> they don't have all that hate in their. heart. They hate naps. It's the end of. the list. Like everything else like they.

just want to like love each other and. hug each other and play. And when they. like think they hurt someone, they stop. and they're very scared cuz they didn't. mean to. And then we turn into these. creatures that are just attacking each. other all the time, you know? And I. think at the end of the day, like all we. want is that. Like all we want is to. just be like that warm, open version of. ourselves before the world beat the [ __ ]. out of us. And maybe that's what love's. supposed to be. Like maybe what love is.

is an opportunity for us to like. reconnect to that part of ourselves that. was just so simple. Like I just want you. to love me. I want to be loved by you. I. want you to feel worthy of my love. I. want to feel worthy of yours. Like, why. does it have to be so hard? So many of us are pursuing passive forms. of income and to build side businesses. in order to help us cover our bills. And. that opportunity is here with our. sponsor Stan, a business that I co-own.

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their business. So, if something I've. said resonates, head over to. pipedive.com/ceeo. where you can get a 30-day free trial. No credit card or payment required. I was thinking about how um there's a. lot of people that at a very early age. had to be very independent for whatever. reason. Maybe a parent wasn't around. Maybe in your case, you know, I've. heard, you know, doing this podcast, you. get a bit of pattern recognition where. you you sometimes think, oh, okay, so if. one of the parents was an alcoholic,

>> adult children of alcoholics were were I. remember reading the book recovery, adult children of alcoholics, I stumbled. on it when I was in college in a. bookstore and I remember reading it and. going, have they been reading my diary? Like what the holy because there was. this profile of like one of the types. one of the archetypes of adult children. of alcoholics is that you yeah control. control. like wanting to control everything. because life feels so chaotic when you.

live with an alcoholic. When the person. who is supposed to be your primary. caregiver and the primary mechanism for. you to feel safe feels unpredictable and. chaotic and that is that creates in you. this constant sense of a heightened you. know heightened sense of I need to hold. on as tight as I can and also that drove. you to be incredibly independent. >> Yeah. Independence and connection seem to be. on like two ends of the spectrum. And I.

say this in part because I look at. >> I look at all my friends that are very. very very independent and I would say. that they typically struggle the most to. form relationships because they've kind. of built their own. >> castle with a moat. >> Yeah. And generally if we zoom out on this. point of independence and dependency. >> I would say that the narrative in. society over the last I know 10 20 years. or whatever has been. >> pointed at glorifying independence and. not dependency. Dependency is like not. cool. It's like be your own boss start. your own business down on your own two.

feet. >> Yeah. Yeah. I so I used to view. I would say the defining characteristics. of my 30s and 40s. was the belief that there were two. versions of Jim Sexton. One was the one that was the most. forward- facing at that time which was. lead pipe cruelty and mercenary. sensibility. Like I'm I'm I'm going to. do this job. I'm going to do it really. well. I'm going to get better and better. at it. I'm going to just take my skill.

set and weaponize it and that's who I'm. going to be. And then there was this. other part of me that was always there. I kind of stuffed it in the closet for a. while that like gets misty eyed when I. talk about love and cries when I think. about dogs and, you know, watches Love. on the Spectrum and can't make it. through an episode without weeping three. or four times. Like this very soft, gentle, loving, compassionate, empathetic, sensitive part of me. >> [snorts]. >> And I felt like they were two waring.

forces. There were two versions of me. And the. question was, how can I beat that soft. little, you know, wuss out of me and be. the final form, which is like the me. that's a machine that can just do it. like that can just do what needs to be. done and do it in a way that nobody else. can do. And I'm very blessed that I am. in my line of work. what yoyo ma is in. cello like in a courtroom.

I have a god-given talent and I remember. thinking okay that's the final form of. me is a master in the courtroom and and. everything else is just what do I need. to do to get there I remember my ex-wife. saying to me you know you will never. love any woman as much as you love the. law like every woman who you ever meet. for the rest of your life will be. playing second fiddle to how much you. love being in a courtroom. You're great. in a courtroom and you have no idea what.

to do in your living room. Like in your. living room, you're just totally. paralyzed. Whereas in a courtroom, you. know every it has why it has defined. rules. It has a cadence. I know what the. goal is. Like I know exact it's. controlled chaos. I'm great at it. So. there was a part of me that went, okay, there's this soft, warm, wonderful, lovely, empathetic side of me, and then. there's this real successful, and that's.

the one that got me everywhere. That's. the one that got me everything I have. So I have to figure out how to get rid. of this one and keep this one. Like, and for my entire 30s and most of my. 40s, that was my primary thing was. trying to figure out how to get rid of. that part of me. And no matter how. loudly I blared 9-in nails on on on on. my headphones and tried to become a. machine, I couldn't get rid of that part. of me. And then I came to realize, I.

think in part because of this work. I. think because of like somehow I stumbled. into. being in a position where I end up. talking about feelings a whole lot. And. it's somehow I I I got brought in to. have go here's this interesting divorce. lawyer who's going to talk about divorce. stuff and somehow ended up talking a lot. about love and softness and warmth and. compassion. >> I didn't think it somehow. >> Yeah. No, exactly. And what I came to. learn from that from from giving that.

voice. is that there actually isn't two waring. forces. It's two very authentic aspects. of self that have to exist inside of me. And each one of them creates the other. in some ways. Like I don't think I'd be. anywhere near as good of a lawyer and. courtroom advocate if I didn't have a. tremendous sensitivity and empathy and. couldn't put myself in the heads of the. various people in the room. So I think. that when we start to see what seems. like opposite traits in us instead as.

authentic representations of aspects of. who we are that we have to learn how to. do let them dance, let them move. together in some way. And there's times. where this guy should take the lead. And. there's times where that very focused. self that you know is very. missiondriven, that person should lead. And and for men in particular, like. we've been taught a rigidity. Like the. gender role for men has a tremendous.

rigidity. I mean, I grew up in a time. where you either got to be Clint. Eastwood or Richard Simmons. Those were. your two choices. You either had to be, you know, like icy 100% or you had to. be, you know, you could be warm and. fuzzy, but then you were just not really. masculine. And I just don't think that's. the case. Like you look at like I've. spent 20 years on the Brazilian. jiu-jitsu mat. I have to tell you like. there are some dudes could snap your. neck with like any with their thumb and. they're some of the warmest most lovely.

people because these are all authentic. aspects of self. And to know that like. the soft warm version of me feeding it, letting it spend some time letting it be. in conversation, it it makes me better. at the other part. It makes me more. authentic. It makes me better at that. part. And by the way, letting that part. out, it hasn't done anything to diminish. this part. So when you start to see it. that way, I I really think that there's. a tremendous.

broader menu of possibilities out there. I've got several friends in my life that. have really struggled with relationships. and love. And uh for all those people. that have really really struggled in. love and they look around at everybody. else and everybody else seems to have. worked it out or at least be working. through a situation but they look at. themselves and go, "It just doesn't work. for me. What's going on? Why am I the. only one in my friendship group that. hasn't found love or isn't in a. relationship?" And they kind of beat.

themselves up about it. I think that's a. great starting point. Why is this. happening to me? and start looking at. when did it start happening and what's. the consistent thread through all of it. and are there people that I could ask. that question of who know me and love me. and would be willing to tell me honestly. and if there aren't great what are some. resources out there in terms of the. wisdom of other people that might share. that experience I think there's so many. entry points to that conversation with. yourself I think the start is to.

identify that yeah I'm drowning like. what here's what the solution is not is. to pretend everything's fine. And that's. the ecosystem we've created. We're we're living our gag reel and. watching everyone's greatest hits. And. we're encouraged all day long to tell. everyone how great we're doing and how. we're crushing it and how great we feel. and how focused we are. Because why? Because we're terrified that if we said, "I don't know. I feel like I'm drowning. I feel like I'm drowning sometimes. I.

have moments where I feel so put. together and then I have moments where I. think I'm drowning. And and by the way, when people have that kind of honesty, there's something so beautiful about it. Like I have to tell you, like one of the. things that people say about me when I. go, I don't understand why anything I'm. saying resonates with anybody. People. are like, "Dude, you're so real. It's so. real. It's so blunt and honest and like. real." This is it's in every one of us. is that same realness, that same basic.

just all it is is just saying out loud. like, "Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. Like, I don't have it all figured out.". AND THAT'S OKAY CUZ I HAVE SOME THINGS. really figured out. So maybe if I've got. these things really figured out and. you've got these other things really. figured out and we're just stop. bullshitting each other for five minutes. and instead go, you know, I'm doing. great on this, but like this I feel like. I'm a train wreck on. Like every high. achieving friend I have, every celebrity. friend I have, every per I have friends.

who people look at them and go, "Oh, dude, he is murdering it." Like you're. my friend. People look at you, they go, "He's murdering it." There are aspects. of your life that you're like, "I got to. work on that." There's tons of aspects. of my life where I go, I got to work on. that. Like I I figured all these other. things out, but I haven't figured that. out yet. And you know what? It's so. lovely to have that conversation. Like. why why can't we just make some space. for that all of us a little bit more? I.

don't think it's that hard. It's at least as important as our. workout routine. It's at least as. important as remembering someone's. birthday. >> Yeah. I I I wonder why that I wonder why. it is that we um [clears throat] there's. so little space for us to work on our. connection challenges. these days. >> It hasn't been prioritized. We become. what we behold. We prioritize what we've. been told to prioritize. We've been told. to prioritize conspicuous consumption. >> We've been taught that the measure of a.

person is is how much financial success. they have. That's why I genuinely. believe that if we continue to barrel. along. using this the metric of success being. financial above all else really. consumption, what we own, what we wear, what we have or how we look, right? as. the priority, we're barreling towards. nothing. Whereas if we were to change. that and say, hey, like joy, peace, finding some peace within ourselves,

finding some balance that feels right to. us individually. >> I think that's a really good simple word. which people don't think about enough. when they're thinking about the KPIs of. success in their life, which is how do I. feel? And I think we've all grown up in. different contexts learning to tune out. of how I feel and in its place put how. does the world feel about me as like the. primary metric. And it's like I I was. thinking the other day that actually, you know, we can go do all these.

podcasts and books and whatever else, but we were all born with this sort of. internal compass that tells you every. day how you feel, but like none of us. tune into it. >> Yeah. Yeah. And actually the metric. becomes like how many followers do you. have? How rich are you? How. >> it's beaten out of us by the world. Like. I I I will tell you, you always get the. most emotional stuff out of me, Stephen. I will tell you my most shameful moment. as a parent. So I have two sons. They're 26 and 28. 28-year-old just got married in. September. He's a lawyer. He's awesome.

He must have been five or six. and something happened. like and he was he started crying like. someone hurt his feelings or something. happened but it wasn't I don't know it. wasn't that big of a deal like it it to. me at the moment I mean I was in my 20s. he was 24 when I I was 24 when he was. born so yeah I was in my 20s and he was. crying he was crying and like I wanted.

him to stop crying because it made me. sad to see him cry like I love him so. much like that I was like it made me so. uncomfortable able to see him crying. And I remember I like I like grabbed. him, not roughly, I grabbed him and I. just looked at him and I was like, "Control yourself." I'm like, "Control. yourself." I'm like, "Calm down and. control yourself.". And I remember like he he managed to do. it. It's 20some years later. Like, and I I'm.

ashamed of that moment. because I understand what I was trying. to say to him. Like I was trying to say. to him, I I don't want you to be in. pain. Like I'm uncomfortable with your. pain. I also wanted I wanted to say. something to this guy probably which is. like dude like the world's not going to. be nice to you if it knows that you have. all these feelings. Like you got to find. a way to hide it. There's so much going. on in that moment. But like I look back.

on that moment and I just think like. no like that was the wrong thing to do. Like it was the wrong thing to do. Like. I don't think we should be telling. people not just boys like boys. particularly maybe. But I don't think we. should be telling people like control. yourself. Like stop feeling so much. Like I think I think. I think there's a difference between. trying to like get people to control. their feelings and not letting like.

everything be governed by the transient. feelings that you have from moment to. moment. And I I think it's a harder more. subtle message. But like I think fe if. we lead with the feelings, if we lean. into the feelings first, if we identify. the feelings first, if we figure out. what it is we want to feel, we want the. other person to feel to bring it back to. marriage to bring it back to connection. that what were the questions I was. asking earlier that that exercise. When. did I make you feel loved this week?

Here's some things you did that made me. feel loved this week. Here's some things. that made me feel desire towards you. this week. Here's some things you did. this week that made me feel less than. loved by you or that made me feel less. connected to you. Like what? Maybe we. just need to help each other learn. how to identify our feelings and feel. our feelings. Like maybe we need more. Mr. Rogers and less, you know, intense. self-help. Like maybe we just need more.

help not trying to control our feelings, but just figure out what they are and. feel them. I think, you know, a lot of. us are distracting ourselves as a way to. avoid feeling anything because even I. was thinking about like a practical way. for you to get back in touch with. actually how you're feeling. Yeah. >> And every solution I came up with was. like interrupted by doom. >> Well, the best definition of addiction. I've ever heard was from a therapist. Dave Klugman. >> who said to me, um, addiction is. anything you do to get away from feeling. what you would would have felt if you'd.

done nothing at all. And I've always. said to people, work is my favorite. narcotic. Like if you look at the most productive. times in my life, they were almost. always when something awful was. happening in my personal life. Either I. was getting divorced, my mother was. dying, some some painful thing was. happening. So I took tremendous comfort. in feeling in control and competent, which is how I feel at work. So the the. more I'm working is usually a gauge of.

of where there are aspects of my life. that I don't want to feel certain. things. And again, that's why I think. that the the best question to ask at the. start of therapy, the only question. really, is what is it I'm afraid to. feel? I think because we're closing off on. this section where we were talking about. people who have struggled in love, it is. probably worth just closing the section. by. giving them. a why as to.

like the the reason why they should take. love seriously and stop distracting. themselves and stop avoiding it and stop. avoiding going to therapy, >> brushing it under the carpet. like what what is what is the why there? Why should they take love seriously? Because they could continue to, you. know, bomb on for the next 10, 20 years. and become. >> really professionally accomplished. >> Mhm. >> And, you know, get rich, nice house, nice holidays. >> Yeah. Those are all great things. Those. are all worthy pursuits.

I think when you look back on your life, whatever stage of your life you're in, most people. will recall a moment where they felt. loved or where they felt tremendous love. as the highest points of their life. I I think even celebrity and I represent. a lot of celebrities and now like you. I've had a little taste of it.

That's really just the praise of. strangers. It's like the love of. strangers, which is lovely. It's lovely. It's like neutrieet. It's sweet. It's. not sugar, but it's sweet. Like, feels. good to have strangers adore you. It's. lovely, you know? But is it the same as. having someone who genuinely knows you. and has a history of with you and really. loves you? Like I think all of us know. if we're honest that when we look back.

on our life at the moments where we felt. the most glad that we're here, it was. usually. something that we felt that made us feel. loved or that we got to feel loved. towards someone else or or ideally a. combination of the two. So I think. romantic love is a great opportunity and. you don't have to be someone who's. religious and therefore believes that. marriage is a sacrament that you're. called to for the purpose of creating. children. You don't have to be someone.

who believes that you know marriage is. good for society and therefore that's. why we have to do it is if you love. America or you love the UK you have to. do this for the country. It really can. just be to look inside your own. experience as a human being and look. inside your own feelings and say, "Okay, when have I felt truly loved? When have. I felt love? And were those the highest. moments in my life? Were those the best. moments in my life?" A lot of those. other things that you just described. like holiday, it's usually not by. yourself. It's usually with other.

people. It's usually with someone. Even. if it's transient love, it's some kind. of connection to another person. So the. the bigger question is is is the unique. form of love that that comes with a pair. bond, right? I you find one person and. you make that person your person. Like. is that the permutation that works for. you? And I think there are a lot of. people who try at that and fail. The.

majority of people try at that and fail. Is the solution to that to give up on. it? I don't think so. I think the. solution to it is to figure out when it. works because when it works, it it's so. good, right? Talk to anybody who's. really had a great successful long-term. relationship. Again, even if it. eventually ends, even if you know, happily ever after means happily ever. after separately. If you had 10, 20. years of your life where you felt deep, wonderful intimate connection with. another person and great sexual.

satisfaction and all kinds of other. things like you know at best right like. you're you're getting married okay and. if you have a monogous marriage I would. like to think that. you will sleep with as many women as you. want to which will be one. and she will sleep with as many men as. she wants to, which will be one. Cuz. when I'm full, I'm not hungry. I don't need more to.

eat. Like when I'm satisfied, I don't. need more. Like if if the goal of a. monogous marriage, if the goal of a. traditional marriage is that we're going. to say to each other, "Hey, you and I, we're going to share space. We're going. to share a journey together. We're going. to play a very important role in each. other's lives. We're going to add to. that. there's this romantic and sexual. component which makes it something other. than a friendship and most marriages. you're saying we're going to only share.

that aspect of self with each other. Okay. So if that's what you want and. what comes from that is you know. something you want to feel and that is I. want to feel deeply connected. I want to. feel a connection that gets deeper and. deeper. I want to feel safe in this. relationship. Emotionally, physically, I. want to feel safe in it. Like, I just. think that there's tremendous value in. saying that out loud to each other from.

the beginning and saying to each other, what can we do to to if we both have. decided this is something we're going to. do, we don't have to do it, but we're. going to do it. How can we keep this. thing lovely and connected? And I I. think the answer really is not that. complicated. >> Do you think prenups help marriages. last? >> Yes. >> You're saying that as a divorce lawyer. who gets paid to write them? >> No. Because it's the least profitable. thing we do. >> Oh, okay. >> Yeah. Prenups are so easy. Like they're,

you know, they're really like to the. point now where they're essentially. automated. Like I see a future where AI. is just going to do them. Like it's. really not that tricky. >> Do you think I should get a prenup? >> Yes, of course. >> Why do you think I should get a prenup? >> You have a prenup? It'll either be. written by the state legislature or. it'll be written by you and she. Who do. you trust more? You've been to the DMV. Have you walked into the DMV and went, "Oh, these people are great. They should. be in charge of everything." I mean, you. know what? They should make the rules. for our marriage. And by the way, even. though this legislature changes. constantly, like whoever you are,

whatever your political views are, in. the last 20 years, at some point you've. gone, I cannot believe who's in charge. here. I cannot believe who's in charge. of the government. Whatever side of the. aisle you're on. So what you're saying. cuz your marriage has a prenup. You get. married, you've got a prenup. You're. saying I trust the legislature of the. state in which we will be residing in. the future in the event we break up more. than I trust my partner who I've chosen. out of 8 billion options. >> I imagine a lot of people listening.

would. be scared to mention a prenup to their. partner. >> And those people in particular, by the. way, it's just like I said about, you. know, I don't have 15 minutes a day to. meditate. Great. that you need an hour. If you'd be scared to mention a prenup. to your partner, then then you should. definitely mention a prenup to your. partner because what that means is I'm. afraid to have a hard conversation with. my partner. And if you're going to get. married, you should get accustomed to. having hard conversations. Life is going.

to come at you very fast. And there's. going to be lots of things that happen. that require hard conversations. >> What if my partner says no? >> Says no to the prenup. >> Yeah. have a conversation about why. >> and they say you don't trust me like you. think I'm going to take your stuff. This. is not very sexy. This is. >> well arguably you don't trust me. equally, right? Because that trust works. both ways. So what what what you're. saying when you say you don't trust me. is you're saying that you don't trust. that this marriage is going to last or.

you don't trust you're saying you don't. trust that in the event this marriage. ends we won't be fair to each other. Right? So, why would you marry someone. who you don't believe that they're going. to be fair to you? What you're you're. not protecting yourselves against each. other. You're protecting yourselves. against the government making the rule. set in the event that that your marriage. ends in something other than death. >> You know, I've got a friend um there's. two people that convinced me that I.

should get a prenup. >> One of them was you. >> Thanks. Um, and then the other was. watching a friend go through divorce and. he said to me actually when we we went. for dinner one time that it was it was. it was looking at his face and seeing. the like depression in his face from the. process because not only had it ruined. his relationship with his ex-wife. because they've gone through this. onslaught for seven years where two sets. of lawyers were fighting either side. He. said that he had paid for the lawyer her. lawyers.

>> which he has to do which I I wasn't. >> Yeah. There's a presumption that the. higher earning individual should be. responsible for the legal reasonable. legal fees of the the less uh earning. spouse. >> He said her lawyer has now got like a. skyscraper whereas when this divorce. started he was in a small little office. Now he's got like some massive building. because he's had to spend tens of. millions on her lawyers. >> And. >> yeah, I've had clients who paid. millions. The other thing he said was. that he has.

her lawyer is trying to inflate his. assets. >> to tell the judge that his business is. worth. >> billions of dollars when now I know why. this divorce is taking so long. They. have dueling experts. So instead of of. the two lawyers hiring neutral a neutral. expert to value his business interests, what they've elected to do instead is to. hire individual partisan experts. And. that happens sometimes. And when you. hire an individual partisan expert, of.

course you're going to, you know, if you. represent the party who wants half of. this thing, you're going to find. someone. You can, the cigarette. companies had doctors who were willing. to testify that cigarettes are good for. you. Like you can find an expert to say. almost anything if you pay them enough. So you find credible experts that will. overly value the business and then. because value is speculative and then. the other side has an incentive to hire. experts who will deliberately diminish. the value of the business and then you. have two opportunities. One is you can.

play with the data set and you can. impeach the data set and then the other. is you can impeach the conclusion that. came from the data set. So you can say. you used the wrong data and that's how. you got to the wrong conclusion. Or you. can say you use the right data but you. came to the wrong conclusion or some. combination of both. Like this is the. [ __ ] I get to do all day in a courtroom. is to like try to engineer those optics. or prevent those optics from being. engineered in that direction. >> And say that I was going through a. divorce now with my partner. Mhm. >> My wife would well her lawyer would.

theoretically be trying to say that this. podcast is worth a billion dollars. because then theoretically. >> she's entitled to a larger percentage. Yeah. >> She might be entitled to 500 million. And if the judge believes that this. podcast is worth a billion, I need to. find a way to pay her 500 million. >> Yeah. >> Even if I don't have it, >> it can be paid over time. It's what's. called a distributive award. It can be. paid over an extended period of time. That's. >> and my lawyer is going to be trying to. argue that this is worth nothing. >> Nothing. It's absolutely effortless. It's worth nothing. You should have. negative contingency discounts, a key. man discount. It's a lack of discount.

for marketability. There's Yeah, this is. all I do all day. This is the gig. And. and see, you know why you want a prenup. is cuz God forbid for both of you that. that happens. Like you're you're going. to pay me. I get a thousand dollars an. hour to help people navigate that kind. of chaos or to create that kind of chaos. as a weapon against a person or to just. threaten that [clears throat] kind of.

chaos. >> Doesn't that mean it's your in your. interest to stretch to amplify conflict. and stretch it out and protract it? And. by the way, I manipulate people's. emotional state for a living. I said. that earlier. You don't think I could. use my powers for evil to get my client. terrified and worried that forces are. aligning against him? By the way, that's. how good lawyers get their reputation as. being good lawyers because sometimes we. have a client where we could potentially. make millions of dollars and we settle.

the case within like $10,000 worth of. fee. Like I have a case right now where. my opposing council is I I would. consider the only lawyer in New York. City better than me. like he's sort of. like an idol to me in the sense that. he's such a good trial lawyer and he's. my adversary on this case and it's not. the first case we've had against each. other and we are like when the two of us. go in a courtroom it's like T-Rexes. fighting. we're going to settle this case in like. two phone calls because we both are just. not the kind of people that are going to.

unnecessarily amplify conflict. We we we. have our reputation because we don't do. that. Like the best of us, that's how. you earn the reputation. The people that. do that amplifying of conflict, word. gets out. Word gets out. And that's this. is a business where you live and die by. your reputation. Make sure you keep what I'm about to say. to yourself. I'm inviting 10,000 of you. to come even deeper into the diary of a. CEO. Welcome to my inner circle. This is. a brand new private community that I'm.

launching to the world. We have so many. incredible things that happen that you. are never shown. We have the briefs that. are on my iPad when I'm recording the. conversation. We have clips we've never. released. We have behindthe-scenes. conversations with the guests and also. the episodes that we've never ever. released. And so much more. In the. circle, you'll have direct access to me. You can tell us what you want this show. to be, who you want us to interview, and. the types of conversations you would. love us to have. But remember, for now, we're only inviting the first 10,000.

people that join before it closes. So, if you want to join our private closed. community, head to the link in the. description below or go to. daccircle.com. I will speak to you there. So, I have. some M&M's here or something. >> You love M&M's. >> Um, explain to me. So, this is actually. a great illustration of what a prenup. should be. Okay. All a prenup is a. prenup is not a referendum on the. likelihood of us breaking up. A prenup.

is not a commentary on how much we trust. each other. A prenup is not um you know. an opportunity to screw the person. you're about to join lives with. Okay? A. prenup is a rule set. It's creating. tranches. Okay? So you have some things. She has some things right now. You don't. owe her anything. She doesn't owe you. anything. Yours is yours. Hers is hers. You're in the title system. >> Can we talk about if we're just dating?

>> So, if we're dating, I heard that. there's some laws where if you date. someone long enough, eventually they can. basically argue that they own your. stuff. >> Yeah. So, that's called what used to be. called common law marriage or it makes. you responsible for what we used to call. palimony, which is like alimony for a. friend. Palimony. Okay. Um, most. jurisdictions no longer honor that. It. doesn't exist. It was largely a function. of the absence of marriage equality. So. once marriage equality occurred, once. gay and lesbian individuals could marry,

the court system essentially started. saying there's no such thing as a quasi. marital relationship anymore. If you are. married, you're married. If you're not, you're not. So if you decide to live. together and you don't have a marriage, then you can't have a quasi marital. relationship anymore. Now that marriage. equality is the law of the land and. everyone who wants to get married is. allowed to get married. You can't say. well we were kind of like married but we. weren't married. Like you're either. married or you're not married. Those are.

the two tranches. So that situation. you're in the title system. Yours is. yours, hers is hers. There is no we. except for the voluntary we. >> Okay. So now using coming back to this. example of these M&M's and prenups. So, here's what marriage is. Simply put, there's you, there's me, and this is we. This is the bucket of we. Okay? When we. get married, we're going to take you.

I didn't put it all. See, I didn't put. it all. Okay? I'm keeping this separate. That's called separate property. Okay? In California, this is called community. property. This is anything I acquire. during the marriage. Okay, this is. separate property. If I keep it. separate, it stays separate. Okay, it. stays separate. Keep that thought. This. is her. Okay,

she's put some of hers in there, too. May not be exactly the same, but it's. pretty close to it. And by the way, we. just got married. It's pretty obvious to. see which one's which, right? Okay. So, so this is any marriage really with or. without a prenup. Okay. This is what. marriage looks like. There's you and. there's me and there's we. We're. combining. And by the way, this isn't. just for assets and liabilities. This is. like the nature of our stuff, our. furniture, the things we bring to the. relationship. You could even argue it's. like what we watch on TV, right? It's.

you, me, we, and we combine the two. Okay. Now, you and I both know this is. actually what it starts to look like. It. never stays just me, does it? it always. starts to get kind of mixed up together. In the law, we call that co-mingling. Okay. Now, here's what's interesting. with a prenup. This stays this simple. because anything you put in this bucket. is marital. And that could be stuff I. bought for the house. It could be a. joint bank account. Could.

>> be anything. >> Okay? All we're doing when we have a. prenup is yours, mine, ours, and we're. defining that. So maybe I want you to. feel I'm very invested in this. relationship. So I throw some more in. Hey babe, I just got a bonus at work. I'm throwing it into the Wii. I'm. keeping a little over here. I'm keeping. a little over here. >> Wait, can you do that after the. marriage? >> With a prenup? Yeah. >> So you can add to a prenup? The prenup, what you're saying is if it's in my.

name, it's mine. Asset or liability. If. it's in your name, it's yours. Asset or. liability. If it's in our joint names, we divide it 50/50 or how we agree in. writing. But we create three separate. buckets. Yours, mine, and ours. Okay? Do. you know what happens in the state of. California after seven years or in the. state of New York if you co-ingle assets. in any way? This is solely things in your name. This. is solely things in her name. Things you. owned before marriage. This is the you.

and the me before you got married. >> It's community property now. All of it. >> Everything. >> All of it. Every bit of it. You didn't. have a prenup. Everything that's in it. Everything in here is is subject to. division. Everything that's in here is. subject to identification, valuation, and division. And think about think. about. sorting that out.

>> And also going back to my friend, some. of the value of these assets is up for. debate. >> Sure. Sure. Not only is the value. because look, some of these are cracked. and some of them aren't. And did they. crack in this process or were they. cracked before? Did she crack them or. did you crack them? And which ones are. worth more than the others? And were. these the same at the be? It doesn't. matter. It's all in. And by the way, take take out the marital take out your. property. Now, how long is that going to. take you? It's impossible to do the once. you're in the community property system,

once you've put something into the Wii. category, if you get married without a. prenup, you can unintentionally. buy into this into this system, which by. the way, I make a very comfortable. living helping people sort this out. Whereas. whereas. all you had to do was agree on the rule. set of yours, mine, ours, and then this. is intentional. Now, I understand why.

that's scary for some people because you. have to have a conversation about, well, are we putting that in joint names? Or, well, you got that bonus. Are you. putting it in my account or your account. or some in your account and some in my. account or some in this? But isn't it. better to keep some level of control. over this? >> If I was a financially motivated. individual and I was marrying say you. and you were a billionaire, >> I mean it's very much in my interest to. avoid this prenup.

>> maybe. Yeah. >> Because then, you know, it's all going. to become we in seven years time. So. I've just got to be with you for seven. years and then I can bounce out of this. and I'm going to make half a billion. dollars. Have you ever seen that? >> Of course. >> Have you ever seen? >> Of course I have. But here's also what I. will say to you. Flip that story for a. second. So we're married for 6 and 1/2. years. It's going pretty well. We're at the 6 and 1/2 year mark. You're you're a billionaire. You're. probably not stupid, right? Are you.

going to take that bet? >> Is it seven years is the moment when. >> is the moment. >> when it all becomes. >> community property? Yeah. >> So do you find some very successful. people? spike the divorce rate at six. years, six and a half years because why? It's the same reason why I tell people. don't put don't put what we call you. know sunset clauses in a prenup because. people people all have the bright idea. that they're going to oh well we'll do a. prenup but after 10 years it'll go away. after 10 years you know it'll. self-destruct like in Mission Impossible.

and all that does is makes people ask. really icky questions at the n and a. half year mark where they have to start. going because seven years seven years. it's like the honeymoon's over maybe you. got a kid or two and all of a sudden you. go, okay, do I want fully one half of. everything I owned prior to the marriage. to now be subject to division? Is it. going that good? Do I want to take this. bet? Like, look, we live in reality. What you're doing when you marry someone. is you're marrying your destiny to them. and you're making decisions about a.

future that you can't see. It hasn't. happened yet. If seven years is the. moment when our assets become co-mingled. to the point that community property. where we have to kind of split our. assets in a relationship, have you ever. seen someone get to like seven years in. one day and then file for divorce. because they're going to get. >> Yeah, I've had people who wait until the. exact moment. Like there's other there's. other formulas that are applicable. Like. I I have plenty of people right now that. have come to me for a consultation and. they're like, "Yeah, I'm not going to. file for another 6 months because we'll.

hit 20 years in 6 months." And when we. hit that, it kicks up to another level. of alimony in terms of the formulas. Like here's the thing. When the. government makes decisions for you, they. set numbers. Like there's a highway near. where we are right now. It's 55 miles an. hour is an acceptable legal speed to. drive on that. 56 and you're committing. a crime. 76 and you're committing a. different level of crime. 106 and you're. committing a higher level felony crime. Right? Is 56 and 55 that much different?

No. We had to pick a number. So, we. picked that number. So, do you trust the. government to pick the number? That's. the only question to ask when you're. thinking about a prenup is, do I trust. the government so much that I'm going to. let them pick the number? Personally, I. don't. Personally, if I like someone so. much that I've decided I'm going to. choose them out of 8 billion other. options, I would think I have enough. faith in that person to come up with a. rule set between us that we and BY THE.

WAY, NOT A COMPLICATED rule set. If it's. in my name, it's mine. If it's in your. name, it's yours. If it's in our name, it's ours. Then you can have all the. conversations you want about why aren't. you putting things in joint names or why. are you putting things in joint names? And here's what I need to feel safe. Cuz. here's the thing. If you're the. billionaire or you're the person. marrying the billionaire, you both want. to feel. Remember, we're going back to. what is it you want to feel? What is it. you want to feel? That's the key. question. You What do you want to feel? You both want to feel safe. Isn't that. fair? I've represented a lot of victims. of intimate partner abuse and domestic. violence and coercive control. And I can.

tell you, you can't feel loved if you. don't feel safe. And there's lots of. ways for a person to feel unsafe. physically, emotionally, financially. There's lots of ways to make someone I. hope you want to make your fiance feel. safe and I hope she wants to make you. feel safe. So, one of the ways that you. make her feel safe. By the way, you. can't protect her from everything in the. world. You know that, right? Like. somebody drops a nuke, there's nothing. you're going to be able to do to help. her with that. Okay? There's lots of. things that can happen that you can't.

keep her safe from, but you're going to. do your darnest. And that's great. Okay? And by the way, like she wants you to. feel safe. She wants you to feel safe. and not taken advantage of and loved for. who you are. Right? I I have every. confidence she does not love you just. for money. There's lots of people with. money in the world. So, she loves the. unique combination of things that are. you. One factor of which may be that. you're a very successful man. professionally and that makes her feel. safe and that makes her feel secure and. it makes her feel like she can really. have a future with you that's a bright. and lovely one and she can focus her.

energies on things other than find. That's great. THIS IS GREAT, MAN. WE'RE. BOTH HAPPY. WE'RE DOING the thing. So, what is wrong with just keeping this. conversation an ongoing conversation. about what is it we need to feel safe? Because if you are in that dynamic where. she's gorgeous and he's rich, if she. says to him, hey, if we split up, I'm. going to like need some things like I. I'm not really focusing on finances and. you have so much more than me. You're.

telling me the guy's not going to say, "Yeah, that makes sense." And by the. way, when's the time to have that. conversation? WHEN YOU'RE MADLY IN LOVE. WITH EACH other in the beginning of this. thing when you're on your knee in front. of the restaurant, you know, proposing. to THE PERSON. YOU DON'T HAVE IT when. you're breaking up. That's the worst. time to have that conversation. Have it. when you're first having that abundance. of optimism and connection to each. other. And then and then, by the way, what does he feel unsafe? He feels. unsafe that he's saying, "Look, I'm. willing to contribute financially to. this relationship. Clearly, I've proven.

that. I bought you a Birkin bag. I. bought you a car. I pay for your bills. I'm signing on to marry you and to give. you a wonderful, beautiful life. Are you. entitled to 100% or 50% of everything. I've ever owned? I have so much more. than you right now. Like that seems. wildly. Do you Are you saying that. everything I earn from the date of. marriage on we should split? Like that's. what's great about a prenup. You can. make whatever rules you want to in that. situation. So, I I believe there is.

genuine value in having honest. conversations about these things. Look, I It's just M&M's. It's just money at. the end of the day. And by the way, this. has no more real value than the pieces. of paper you're holding in your pocket. that we've attributed value to. If. anything, this tastes good. Chew on. money all you want. It won't help. I did. have this conversation with my partner. and we we talked about it and she was. very um she was very supportive of a. prenup because she also wants one and. she wants to protect her assets and the. business that she's built and all those.

kinds of things which was useful but. also I acknowledged you know that I'm I. earn more money so in the event that we. have a big family in the future we have. four five kids. >> you I think I need to contribute more to. make sure that she's fine in the. >> I'm not of course but but see this is. the point you're a reasonable able. person if your response when she said. well you know I we may want to have a. family and you know if we do like you. have so much more than me and although. I'm signing off to protect your assets.

like you know the pursuits I I am really. concentrating my day on are not purely. financial they're more for the good of. the world or for the good of individuals. I'm I'm a helper I'm a person who wants. to to to to make the world a better. place you know I know a little bit about. her that I know that these are these are. her goals her goal is not to be I want. to be the CEO of everything her goals is. to help the world and to help people. That's beautiful. That's probably one of. the reasons why you love her so much. And so, isn't that a conversation the. two of you should have now and say,

"Well, of course." And by the way, if we. have kids, I'm going to need different. things. What's great about a prenup is. you can make one that says, "If we don't. have kids, it's this. If we have kids, it's this." Like, there's protections. you can put in that make sense to both. of you. >> What about pets? I've heard about this. petnup. >> Petnup? Yeah. >> What's a petnup? Do people actually. >> Yeah. Yeah. Pet a petnup is I actually. created the site trusted petnup.com and. uh it's free. It's 100% free. It's uh if. you it's a pay as you wish. So if you.

want to to pay anything towards it, 100%. of it goes to animal shelters basically. to to 501c3 animal shelters. But. essentially what we have found is. happening more in the legal system right. now is the equivalent of custody cases. but for companion animals. So people. have a dog, people have a cat, people. have a bird, people have any combination. of animals. We feel deeply emotionally. invested in our pets. Um the law for. many years looked at pets as what was. called cattle. Cattle is property. And.

property is essentially like if you. killed someone's dog, you owed them the. replacement value of the dog. >> What do you tend to see from a legal. perspective here? Is it that at one. point they bought a pet together, they. never really clarified who owns the pet. They go through a divorce. They're both. arguing over the pet. >> That happened a lot. Yeah, that was the. most common permutation. Sometimes it. was they got a pet together while they. were dating. >> and one of them was living, you know, in. their own apartment or whatever and the. dog or cat was living with them and then.

they merged their homes and now they. both grow deeply attached to this animal. and you know they've spent 5 years or 10. years together with this animal and now. they both like a child. They both have. this like a stepchild is very similar. like it's not my blood child but it's. you know someone who I've spent a long. time with and been part of their care. and I mean something to them. >> What's the legal what's what is the. >> Well, for many many years pets were. considered chatt. They were considered. property. So, you know, I I remember a. case in New York County where the.

parties could not agree on what to do. with the dog, like who would keep the. dog and the judge said, "Okay, I'm. ordering the dog to be sold and the. proceeds divided." And of course, the. people then went outside and figured, it. was very Solomonike. The people went. outside and figured out a visitation. schedule for the dog. But what we're. just saying is just like anything in a. prenup, do this in advance. Just do this. in advance. You have a pet, have a. petup. Even if you're not getting. married, if you're cohabitating or. you're dating someone, have a contract. that says, "We both [snorts] care about. this animal. We've adopted this animal.

or we purchased this animal or we. brought this animal into our lives. And. now in the event that the our. relationship ends, here's what the rules. will be. We will jointly make important. medical decisions and be guided by the. veterinarian's you know perspective. Um. if if either of us ever is going to give. up the animal for adoption, the other. person will have the automatic right to. adopt the animal. If the time eventually. comes where there has been a. recommendation of euthanasia by we will. both be entitled to be there when we say.

goodbye to that dog or we'll both be. entitled to jointly agree on where that. animal's ashes will be or where they'll. be buried or we'll each be entitled to. one half of the ashes or we'll have a. visitation schedule for the dog in the. event that we separate. That's what a. petnup is. A petup is a contract between. two people. Look, just like kids, pets didn't ask for this. Pets didn't. ask for you guys to break up. It's not. their fault. Like, I don't know anybody. that ever broke up because of the dog or. the cat. I'm sure there's somebody out.

there, but that's not what it's about. So, it is very, very useful to have in. advance a rule set. I like rules in. advance. I like to know the rules of the. game that we're playing because we can. adjust our behavior accordingly. >> Is um divorce increasing statistically? So it's the most recent statistic is the. divorce rate is slowly going up. It was. low. It had it had gone down. It went. down during the pandemic. Part of that. was a function of access to the court.

system. When again when you're looking. at the divorce rate, the divorce rate is. calculated based on the filing of what's. called certificate of dissolution of. marriage, which is the final document. that's filed with the state by the court. system when a divorce has been. finalized. So all you're really seeing. there is what marriages catastrophically. failed and and there was a judgment of. divorce center. There are many people. that just go out for milk and never come. back or they physically separate and. then they never finalize the divorce. They're not factored into that. statistic. >> So and the people who quietly stay. together miserable or live in different.

places and just move out and never. finalize their divorce. That that that. statistic doesn't include any of those. people. These are just the people that. it actually ended in divorce and that. divorce was registered with the state. But the divorce rate went down and then. it the divorce filing rate spiked when. the court systems opened back up post. pandemic and now it's steadily going. back up again. Now what's interesting is. the marriage rate is going down and the. average age at which people marry is.

going up. I was looking at the. generational divide here and it says. younger couples so millennials and Gen Z. divorce rates have plummeted. They are. marrying later, cohabiting first and. statistically more selective leading to. more stable marriages. However, there is. something called the gray divorce. Divorce rates for people over 50 um they. refer to as gray divorce has doubled. since 1990 and tripled for those over. 65. >> Yeah, great divorce is a uh something. that a lot of divorce lawyers are. thinking and talking a lot about right.

now, which is that first of all, people. are living much longer. people are. living in a different way much longer. thanks to things like erectile. dysfunction medication. Like you know an. 80year-old having you know a active sex. life is not something that really. existed so often prior to the. pharmaceutical advent of erectile. dysfunction drugs which really only. occurred in the last 20 years. So. there's a big change in in what a. 70year-old or 80year-old's quality of.

life is and what they look like and what. their health is like. So, you know, with. with uh hormone replacement therapy, with you know, all the different. medications that are out there, people. are living more uh sexually. uh you know, and romantically charged. lives in their elder years than they. used to, which often leads people to. say, you know what, I've got 10 more. years. I'm not going to stay in this. unhappy relationship and I'm going to. split up. I actually don't think, by the. way, that those two statistics that you. just talked about are unrelated. I think.

millennials, they they haven't been. married for that long yet. Like the. question of catastrophic failure of a. marriage, like I I've said it before. that people get divorced the same way. they go bankrupt, very slowly and then. all at once. What two of the reasons. given in the research I did as well were. quite quite. unobvious on the surface. One of them is. that women in this generation, boomers. and Gen Z, are more likely to have their. own careers and retirement savings than. previous generations, meaning they can. afford to leave unhappy marriages. And. when I've spoken with menopause experts.

and so on, they they've told me they see. this often that in this season of life, women will, you know, make a decision to. to leave. And the other one is the. reduced stigma about divorce. >> Yeah. >> So divorce is no longer seen as a moral. failure, making it socially easier to. split later in life. >> I believe that that's true. I think that. we've definitely changed the manner in. which we relate to divorce. We no longer. consider it a catastrophic failure. socially. I think that we often see it. as the ending of a chapter and the. beginning of a new one. I don't think. that that's bad. I think distigmatizing.

divorce and seeing that, okay, sometimes. it is better for people when the. relationship is no longer working for. both of them and they've done the things. they've tried to do to make it work and. they've decided that happily ever after. means happily ever after separately. I. don't think that's necessarily a bad. thing. Similarly, you could make the. argument that one of the reasons. millennials, and again, only time will. tell, that millennials are better at uh. staying married is going to be that they. go into it with more realistic. expectations. They don't go into it with. the expectation that this person is.

going to be their everything. They they. look at it and go, "Yeah, as a human. being, I'm marrying another human being. I haven't quite figured myself out.". >> Which of your books was more popular? How not to [ __ ] up your marriage, straight talk from a divorce lawyer. who's seen it all, or how to stay in. love? So, How to Stay in Love has been. out longer. Yeah. So, it's done quite. well um over the period of time. It's in. its fourth printing right now. >> And what what about this book do you. think was resonant? Is there a. particular idea that was number one in. this book? >> I think a it was the first book written.

by a divorce lawyer to headon take on. the topic of how to not get divorced. It. was a how not to book basically. So, I. think that that was the the key concept. was uh keeping people connected and and. what you could learn. Look, who are you. going to go to if you want to learn how. to keep your car in good condition? A. new car dealer or a mechanic? Like, a. new car dealer only sees brand new cars. They don't know anything about, you.

know, about how to actually keep one. together. Mechanics are good at that. We. tell you where the predictable points of. failure are. So, I think that was what. made the book popular. What's the most. important thing we didn't talk about. that we should have talked about as it. pertains to the subject of holding on to. this very precious thing and very. elusive thing for many called love? >> You know, something I've been thinking a. lot about lately is two, and I say this to you as an engaged man. and as a friend.

I think there's two seemingly. contradictory. assumptions people make when they get. married that I hope you're not making. Okay? I hope this couple neither person. in this couple is making. one. is thinking that. marriage will change the other person. So, you know, Steven works so much and. he's so hard charging, but once we get. married, he'll come home more and he'll. be home more and he'll calm down more. You know, she's uh uh you know, very.

worried about me when I'm I'm making. something up, but she's worried about me. when I'm out and on the road and she's. worried about temptation bothering me. But once we're married, she'll know we. have a really solid commitment. She. won't have that worry anymore. Okay? Thinking that marriage is going to. change someone is a very dangerous. assumption. And a lot of the people that. come into my office, they entered. marriage thinking this is going to. change things that I want to see. changed. The contradictory second thing is.

thinking once we get married nothing. will change. thinking, "This is so lovely. She's so. wonderful. I love the version of me she. brings out. So, I'm so wonderful when. I'm with her." And her thinking, "He's. so wonderful, and I love who he how he. makes me." Because, you know, we don't. just love the person. We love the person. we are when we're with that person. We. love how that person makes us feel about. ourselves. That's a lovely thing. It's. one of the best things about love,

right? So making the assumption that. that will never change that nothing. about this rel that marrying will. somehow build a wall around this. beautiful wonderful warm thing that we. found together and it'll protect it from. all the other things in the world and. nothing will change and it'll just stay. wonderful is another very dangerous. assumption. So even though it seems like. a contradiction, I hope that things change and I hope.

some things don't change. And the only. way that I can think of to let those two. contradictory elements peacefully. coexist in a manner that doesn't lead. directly to the desk in front of me is. to just keep talking about it. And when. things change, just talk about it. Just. point it out. Not with judgment, not. with anger, not with the belief that. because something changed it's bad. And. not with the change that change is. automatically good. Just saying, "Hey,

remember these two people? That guy's a little different now. Is. that okay? Why did that happen? Is it a. good thing? Is it a bad thing? Do you. miss him? Is there something that we. could do that's different or better?". Like these two people found value in. each other. They they love the other. person and they love who they are when. they're with the person. And again, I'll. I'll say it again. Your marriage will. end. I promise. I hope it ends in death.

And I hope when it ends that you will. look at her and you will say, "She. helped me become the most authentic. version of myself and she's still my. favorite person.". That's the greatest gift that you could. give to her and that you can give to. each other and that I think the two of. you together could give to the world. And that's worth all the M&M's. Why do you point to authenticity as. being so important in this context?

Because you use that word, she helped me. become the most authentic version of. myself. Why does that matter? Because. it's not about becoming the version of. you that she envisions for you or her. becoming who you want her to become. I. think that sometimes love. the person doesn't become what we wanted. them to be. And I think sometimes what. we wanted them to be might not be the. most authentic version of who they are. You know Cahel Gabbron in the prophet.

when he's talking about children he says. that children are living arrows. and and and that you you fire the arrow. and yes, your aim has something to do. with it, but the wind has something to. do with it and so many other things have. something to do with it. And so, you. know, God loves the archer with the. steady hand and the arrow that's. straight. And I feel like if you were to. say. this person became who I wanted them to.

become like because again I think our. duty in the best symbiosis. You. care a lot about her even more so than. you do about yourself. And she cares. about you even more so than she does. about herself. but not to have you. become the man she wants you to be and. not for her to become the woman you want. her to be. You want to be of service to. her and she wants to be of service to.

you. I want to help you become the most. authentic version of you. I can see your. blind spots. You can't. That's why. they're blind spots. So, I'm going to. help you become the most authentic. version of yourself. That's the promise. That should be the promise in marriage. is I want to help you become I'm going. to do what I can to be of service to. helping you become the most authentic. version of yourself. And when you become. it, you'll still be my favorite person.

because at the core of you is this thing. that I love. >> I hope I do a good job. >> I hope you do, too. >> Scary, isn't it? Cuz you think of all. the ways you can [ __ ] it up. It's like, do you know what I mean? >> But you know what? There's so many ways. >> That's why it's brave. Like, if you're. not scared, it's not brave. >> It's brave cuz you're scared and you do. it anyway. >> And it's worth doing it. Because if the. prize at the end of it is figuring out. who you are and helping someone figure.

out who they are and having a partner in. all of this, like, what's better than. that, man? What what riches could you. hold that are greater than that? Like, that's the greatest gift you could seek. in life. And and by the way, it also has. the power, if it's done right, to. transform the world because it really is. family, community, culture, world, you know, and so yeah, it's it's the fact that you say it's.

scary is great because it means you. realize this is a serious thing and. something that you realize is serious, you're going to make a concerted effort. to be good at. Amen. We have a closing tradition. As. you know, the question left for you is, what is the most significant dream you. have had in the past year and how did it. change your behavior? [sighs].

Go on. I know. I want to get through. this without crying. I had a uh I had a. dream about my mom. It's okay. My mom died 10 years ago after a long. battle with cancer. There was a lot between us that needed. to be said and wasn't said.

We had some peace and some closure, but. there's a lot I didn't hadn't figured. out about myself. by the time she passed. And there's a. part of me that wishes she was here so. that I could have apologized for some. things I got wrong and I could have. understood her better. And I had a dream [clears throat]. that she was just there. just sitting with me.

And my mom was like me. She never shut. up. She would just constantly talk and. talk over you. And. I got that from her. Her very energetic. She also cried constantly and for for. joy, tears of joy. She would listen to. music and just start crying because it. was so beautiful. I realized I got that. from her. Most of the really warm things. in me came from her. And in this dream, she just sat there.

silently. and I kept talking to her. I don't. remember what I was saying, but I just. kept talking to her. And she just sat there quietly and just. was patting my leg. And I I remember I woke up. and I felt. I felt very like calm. I felt very like.

I'd spent time with her. [snorts]. And I thought to myself, I think that. that was something. I don't know if it. was her visiting me. I don't know if it. was God talking to me. I don't know if. it was just my subconscious telling me. something I needed to see. [snorts]. But I felt like it was saying to me. that, you know, that sometimes the words got. in the way between the two of us. and that maybe what really mattered the. most was just that we were next to each.

other. And I tried to. since I had that dream. um [clears throat]. do that more with the people I love. It's It's hard for me to stop talking. And I'm learning. with my sons and with the people that I. love that sometimes just being next to. them is nice. That I don't need to uh.

I'm really good at talking, so I just. keep doing it. And that maybe sometimes. it's nice to just stop and just be with. someone. And so I felt like that that was a very. powerful dream. It was a very simple. dream, but it was one that it it changed. the way I'm trying to relate to people. [snorts]. So you got me to cry again, man. Killing. me. >> At the end of [snorts] the day, it all.

comes back to love, doesn't it? >> Yeah, it does. Isn't it funny? >> All roads. >> Isn't it funny? Like we've added all. these layers of complexity to it, and. that's all it comes down to. too. Isn't. it crazy? >> Yeah, it really is. >> Someone asked me that on stage that like. last week I was speaking in the Middle. East somewhere and they asked me about. like what does everybody want? That was. literally the question and my answer was. love. And we all we're like confused. about the path to it. So some of us. think the path to it is like if I get. the number one podcast maybe that will. make or maybe that would mean I'm worthy.

of love. >> Yeah. Like like we we we've come to. we've come to associate accomplishment. with being worthy of love. And that's. really all that it is. Like it's really. all that it is. Like what otherwise. what's the purpose of it? Like how many. supercars can one person have? And how. much joy can they really give you? You. can only drive them one at a time, you. know? Like it really is about like no, I. feel worthy. I feel worthy of love. I. feel proud of who I am, which is I'm. proud of who I am, which means I'm. worthy of love. It it really all comes. back to love. It really all comes back. to love. the the the two things that.

late middle age is helping me see. is that the hardest thing to become is. yourself, your authentic self. And that really all. any of us want is to be loved like and. to be worthy of love. And that. everything you have will add up to a. great pile of nothing. other than the people who you love and. the people who loved you and the. experiences you had with those people.

That's it. That's all that matters. Everything else is noise. >> James, thank you. >> Thank you. Always good to see you. >> Good to see you, too. YouTube have this. new crazy algorithm where they know. exactly what video you would like to. watch next based on AI and all of your. viewing behavior. And the algorithm says. that this video is the perfect video for. you. It's different for everybody.

looking right now. Check this video out. and I bet you you might love.