WARNING: ChatGPT Could Be The Start Of The End! Sam Harris

artificial intelligence is superhuman it. is smarter than you are and there's. something inherently dangerous for the. Dumber party in that relationship you. just can't put the genie back in the. bottle Sam Harris neuroscientist. philosopher author podcaster he goes. into intellectual territory where a few. others their tread six years ago you did. a TED Talk the gains we make in. artificial intelligence could ultimately. destroy us if your objective is to make. Humanity happy and there was a button.

placed in front of you and it would end. artificial intelligence what would you. do well I would definitely pause it the. idea that we've lost the moment to. decide whether to hook our most powerful. AI to everything it's just oh it's. already connected to the internet got. millions of people using it and the idea. that these things will stay aligned with. us because we have built them we gave. them a capacity to rewrite their code. there's just no reason to believe that. and I worry about the near-term problem. of what humans do with increasingly.

powerful AI how it amplifies. misinformation most of what's online. could soon be fake can we hold a. presidential election 18 months from now. that we recognize as Valor right like is. it safe and it just gets scarier and. scarier I worry we're just going to have. to declare bankruptcy to the internet. if your intuition is correct are you. optimistic about our chances of survival.

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son. six years ago you did a TED Talk. um I watched that Ted Talk a few times. over the last week and this Ted Talk was. called can we build AI without losing. control over it in that Ted Talk you. really discussed the idea whether. um AI when it gets to a certain point of. sentience and intelligence will. will wreak havoc on Humanity. six years later.

where'd you stand on on it today. do you think are you optimistic about. our chances of. survival survival yeah I mean I can't. say I'm optimistic I'm I am worried. about two. species of problem here that are related. I mean there's sort of the near-term. problem of just what humans do with. increasingly powerful Ai and. um.

how it amplifies the the problem of. misinformation and disinformation and. make and just makes it harder and harder. to make sense of reality together. um. and then there's just the the longer. term concern about you know what's. called alignment with with artificial. general intelligence where we build AI. that is is. truly General and you know by definition. superhuman and it's competence and power. and then the question is have we built.

it in such a way that is aligned in a in. a durable way with with our interests. and. um. I mean there's some people who just. don't see this problem that they're kind. of blind to it when I'm in the presence. of someone who doesn't have doesn't. share this intuition they don't resonate. to it. I just don't understand what they're. doing or not doing with their minds in. that moment. let's say I'm wrong about that well then.

you know it's just the other person's. right and so we're just we just have. fundamentally different intuitions about. about this particular point and then the. point is this. if you're imagining building true. artificial general intelligence that is. superhuman and that is what everyone. whatever their intuitions purports to be. imagining here I mean there's you know. there are people on both sides of the of. the alignment debate. the people who think alignment's a real. problem and or and people think it's a. total fiction. but everyone you know virtually everyone.

whose party to this conversation agrees. that we will ultimately build. artificial general intelligence that. will be superhuman and it's in its. capacities. and there's very little you have to. assume to be confident that that we're. going to do that and there's really just. two assumptions one is that intelligence. is substrate independent right there's. no it doesn't have to be made of meat it. can be made in silico right and we've. already proven that with narrow AI I. mean there's just this we obviously have. intelligent machines and you know your.

calculator and your phone is better than. you are at arithmetic and it's just. that's that's some very narrow band of. intelligence. so as we keep building intelligent. machines. on the assumption that there's nothing. magical about having a computer made of. meat. the only other thing you have to assume. is that we will keep doing this we will. keep making progress. and eventually we will we will be in the. presence of something more intelligent. than we are.

and that's not assuming Moore's Law is. not assuming exponential progress we. just we just have to keep going right. and when you look at the reasons why we. wouldn't keep going those are all just. terrifying right because intelligence is. so valuable and we're so incentivized to. have more of it and every increment of. it is is valuable it's not like it only. gets valuable when you get you know when. you double it or 10x it no no if you. just get three more percent right that's. that's uh that pays for itself.

um so. we're going to keep doing this our. failure to do it suggests that something. terrible has happened in the meantime. right we've had a World War we've had a. global pandemic far worse than covid we. got hit by an asteroid something. happened that prevented us as a species. from continuing to make progress in. building intelligent machines right so. absent that we're going to keep going. we will eventually be in the presence of. something smarter than we are.

and this is where intuitions divide. my intuition and it's shared by by. many people I'm sure I know at least one. who you've spoken to. my intuition is that. there is something inherently dangerous. for the Dumber party in that. relationship there's something. inherently dangerous for the Dumber. species. to be in Pre in the presence of the. smarter species and we have seen this.

you know based on our entanglement with. all other species dumber than we are. right or certainly less competent than. we are. and. buy so buy it reasoning by analogy it. would be true of something smarter than. we are. um. people imagine that because we have. built these machines that is no longer. true right but. and here's where my into tuition goes.

from there. that is that imagination is. born of not taking intelligence. seriously right because what. intelligence is is. a you know a mismatching intelligence in. particular is. a. a fundamental. lack of insight into what the smarter. party is doing and why it's doing it and.

what it will do next on the part of the. Dumber party right so I mean you just. couldn't imagine that. by analogy just imagine that that dogs. had invented us as their their super. intelligent AIS. right. for the purpose of making their lives. better you know just securing resources. for them securing comfort for them. making getting the medical attention. um. it's been working out pretty well for. the dogs for about 10 000 years right I.

mean there's some exceptions we've got. we've mistreat certain dogs but. generally speaking. for most dogs most of the time humans. have been a great invention right now. it's true. that. the. the mismatch in our intelligence. dictates a fundamental blindness with. respect to what we've become in the. meantime right so like we have all these. instrumental goals and things we care. about that they cannot possibly conceive.

right they know that when we go get the. leash and say it's time for a walk they. understand that particular part of the. language game but everything else we do. when we're talking to each other when. we're on our computers or on our phones. they don't have the dimmest idea of what. we're up to and. if we ever if something happened if we I. mean we love the truth is we love our. dogs we make just irrational sacrifices. for our dogs we prioritize their health. over all kinds of things. that is just amazing to consider.

and yet. if we learn if there was a new you know. Global pandemic kicking off and some. xenovirus was jumping from dogs to. humans and it was just a super Ebola. right it was just it was 90 lethal and. if this was just a forced choice between. him what do you value more you're the. the lives of your dogs or the lives of. your kids right if that's if that's the. situation we were in it's totally. conceivable unless it's not a you know.

not by no means impossible. we would just kill all the dogs right. and they would never know why right we. would just and it's because we have this. layer of of. mind and culture and and just just the. the new sphere right there's just this. this realm of of of mind that requires a. requisite level of intelligence to even. be party to even know exists. that they have they have no idea it.

exists right and it's. so this is a fanciful uh analogy because. the dogs did not invent us but evolution. invented us right Evolution has coded us. you know as I said to survive and spawn. and that's it right so Evolution can't. see. everything else we've done with our time. and attention and and all the values. we've formed in the meantime and all the. ways in which. we have explicitly disavowed the program.

we've been given right so Evolution gave. us a program. but if we were really going to live by. the likes of that program. what would we be doing and we would be. having as many kids as possible right. you know the guys would be going to. sperm banks and donating their sperm and. finding that like the best use of their. time and attention it's like the idea. that you could have hundreds of kids. for which you have no financial. responsibility. that would be the that should be the.

most rewarding thing that you could. possibly do with your time. as a man. and. yet that's obviously not what we do and. there are people who decide not to have. kids and they're people who and and yet. and everything else we do. from you having podcast conversations. like this to to. curing diseases type of Interest like. literally everything we're doing with. our you know with science with with. culture. is yes there are points of contact but.

between those those products and our. evolved capacities right it's not it's. not just it's not magic right we are. social primates that that have leveraged. certain ancient Hardware to do new. things. but evolution the code that we've been. given doesn't see any of that right and. we've not been optimized to build. democracies right. um Evolution knows nothing it can know. nothing if evolution were a coder. there's just no there's no democracy.

maximization in that code right it's. just it's not a it's not there so the. idea that these things. will stay aligned with us because we. have built them because if we have this. origin story that we gave them their. initial code and yet we gave them a. capacity to rewrite their code and build. future generations of themselves right. um. there's just no reason to believe that I. see no and and the mismatch.

in intelligence is intrinsically. dangerous and you could see this by. I mean it's just Stuart Russell I don't. know if you had him on the podcast he's. a great. um. professor of computer science at. Berkeley and he he wrote literally. co-wrote one of the most popular. textbooks on AI. um. he has some arresting analogies which I. think are good intuition pumps here um. and one is just think of how you would. feel if. you knew like unless we got a.

communication from elsewhere in the. galaxy. and it was a message that we decoded and. it said people of Earth we will arrive. on your lowly planet in 50 years get. ready. right. that anyone who thinks that we're going. to get super intelligent AI in let's say. 50 years. things were were essentially in that. situation. and yet we're not responding emotionally. to it in the same way if we if we.

received a communication from a a. species that we knew. just by by fact by the sheer fact that. they were communicating with us in this. way we knew they were more competent and. more powerful and more intelligent than. we are right and they're going to arrive. right. we would we would feel. that we were on the threshold of the. most momentous change in the history of. of our species. and we would feel but most importantly. we would feel that it's because.

this is a a relationship an unavoidable. relationship that's being foisted upon. us right it's like we like some a new. creature is coming into the room. right with its own capacities. and now you're in relationship and and. one thing is absolutely certain it is. smarter than you are right by by what. factor I mean ultimately we're talking. about by factors you know just by so.

many orders of magnitude it's it. our intuitions completely fail I mean. even if even if it was just. a difference in in the time of. processing even if it let's say there. was no difference in in the actual you. know native intelligence but it's just. processing speed. a million fold difference in processing. speed is is just. a phantasmagorical difference in. capacity so like just imagine we had 10.

Smart Guys in a room over there and they. were working and thinking and talking a. million times faster than we are right. well so they're no smarter than we are. but they're just faster. and we talked to them once every two. weeks just to catch up on you know what. they're up to and what they want to do. and whether they still want to. collaborate with us well. two weeks for us is 20 000 years of. analogous progress for them. right so how could you how could we. possibly hope to constrain the opinions.

and collaborate with and negotiate with. people no smarter than ourselves who are. making twenty thousand years of progress. every time we make two weeks of progress. right it's just it's it's. is unimaginable and yet. there are many people who don't that. just think this is just fiction. everything I all all the noises I've. made in the last five minutes are just. like a. a new religion of fear right and it's.

just there's no reason to think that. alignment is even. a potential problem if your intuition is. correct and the analogy of us getting a. signal from outer space that someone is. coming in 30 years which by the way a. lot of people that speak on this subject. matter. um don't believe it's even going to be. 30 years yeah until we reach that sort. of Singularity moment I think they speak. of artificial general intelligence I've. heard people like Elon say you know. many fewer decades 10 10 years 15 years. 20 years Etc if that is correct then.

surely this is the most pressing. challenge conversation issue of our time. and there's no logical reason. that I can see to. refute your intuition there. I I can't see a logical reason the rate. of progress will continue. don't necessarily see anything that will. wipe out or pause our rate of progress. um. I mean let me just to uh be charitable. to the other side here there are other.

assumptions that they smuggle in that. they some people I mean some do it. without. being aware of it but some actually. believe these assumptions and This. spells the difference on on this on this. uh particular intuition. um so so it's possible to assume that. the more intelligent you get the more. ethical you become by definition right. now and we might you know draw a. somewhat more equivocal picture from. just the human case where we see that oh.

there's some very smart people who. aren't that ethical but. they're I believe there are people I. mean I've talked to a few at least a few. people who believe this. there are people who assume that kind of. in the limit as you push out into just. just. if. far beyond human levels of intelligence. there's every reason to believe that all. of the the. provincial creaturely. failures of human ethics will be left.

behind as well it's like you're not like. the the selfishness and the and the and. the basis for conflict like what like. these are not the apish urges of you. know status seeking. uh. monkeys is is just not. it's not going to be in the code and as. you push out into into just kind of the. Omnibus Genius of of the coming AI. you're gonna there's a kind of a. sainthood that's going to come along. with it right and and a wisdom that will.

come along with it now. I just think that's a that's quite a. gamble I I think I would take the other. the other side of that bet and and I. would frame it this way. there have to be ways in the space of. all possible. intelligences that are beyond the human. right there's got to be more than one. possible there's got to be just like. there's many different ways to have a. chess engine that's better than I am at. chess. they're still they're they're different. from each other but they're all better.

than me right. um there's got to be more than one way. to have a superhuman artificial. intelligence. and I would I would imagine there there. are. you know not not an infinite number of. ways but just a vast number of of. in the space of all possible Minds there. are many locations in that space beyond. the human. that are not aligned with human. well-being right there's got to be more.

ways to build this. unaligned then aligned right and what. other people are smuggling into this. conversation is the intuition that no no. once you get beyond the human. is just going to get it's just you're. going to be in the presence of you know. just the Buddha who understands quantum. mechanics and oncology and everything. else right. I just see no reason to think that. that's so and we we could build. something that is. again taken intelligence seriously. we're going to build something we're in.

relationship to it's really intelligent. in all the ways that we're intelligent. it's just better at all of those things. than we are it's by definition. superhuman because the only way it. wouldn't be superhuman the only way it. would be human level even for 15 minutes. is if we didn't let it improve itself if. we wanted to just keep it stuck at you. know at a we just we built a college. undergraduate we wanted just to keep it. stuck there but we would have to dumb. down all of the specific capacities.

we've already built right just like all. every AI we have narrow AI is superhuman. for the thing it does you know it's it's. it has access to all the information on. the internet right it's just like it's. got perfect memories it can perfectly. copy itself when one part of the system. learns something the rest of the system. learns it because it just can swap files. right it can it's um you're again your. your phone is a bit is a superhuman. calculator there's no reason to make it. a a calculator that is human level.

um. and so we're never going to do that. we're never going to be in the presence. of human AGI we will be immediately in. the presence of superhuman AGI and then. the question is how quickly it it. improves and how far they're how much. Headroom is there to improve into. on the assumption that you can get quite. a bit more intelligent than we are right. that there's like they were nowhere near. the summit of possible intelligence. you have to imagine that you're going to.

be in the presence of something. that is again it could be completely. unconscious right this I'm not saying. that there's something that's like to be. this thing. although there might be and that's a. totally different problem that's worth. worrying about. but. whether conscious or not. it is solving problems detecting. problems. improving its capacity to do all of that. in ways that we can't possibly. understand. and the products of its increasing.

competence are always being surfaced. right so it's like it's. we've been we've been using it to change. the world we became we've become Reliant. upon it we built this thing for a reason. I mean one thing that's been amazing. about the developments in recent months. is that. those of us who have been at all. cognizant of the AI safety space for you. know now going on a decade or more for. some people. always assumed.

that as we got closer to the end zone. we'd become either the labs would become. more circumspect we'd be building this. stuff. air gap from the internet you know it's. like we have this phrase air gapped from. the internet like we thought this was a. thing like you this thing would be in a. box and then the question would be. well do we let it out of the box and let. it do something right like is it safe. and how do we know if it's safe right. and we thought we would have that moment. we thought it would it would happen in a. lab at Google or at Facebook or. somewhere we thought we would hear okay.

we've got something really impressive. and now we just want it to touch the. stock market or we wanted to touch the. our medical data or we just want to see. if we can use it. we're way past that right we've built. this stuff already in the wild it's. already connected to the internet it's. already got millions of people using it. it already has apis it's already it's. already doing work so from an AI safety. point of view that's amazing like we. didn't even have the moment the the.

choice point we thought was going to be. so. fraught of course we didn't we we. because there was such. pressing incentives for people to press. forward regardless of that conversation. especially but yeah everybody everyone. everyone thought I mean I was never I. was I don't believe I was ever in. conversation with someone with someone. like Elias or udakowski or or Nick. Bostrom or Stuart Russell. who assumed we would be in this spot.

like I just everyone we because. you know I'd have to go back and look at. those conversations but. there was so much time spent you know it. seems quite unnecessarily on this idea. that. circumspect we'd make a certain amount. of progress and circumspection would. kick in like even the people who are who. were doubters would become worried and. at their and there would be like in the. final yards you know as we go across.

into the end zone. there'd be some mode where we could sort. of slow down and figure it out and try. like try to deal with the arms race. Dynamics like let's place a phone call. to China and and and just like let's. talk about this we got something. interesting but the stuff has already. been built in connection to everything. and there's already just endless. businesses being. being. devised on the on the the back of this. thing and all the improvements are going.

to get plowed into it and so just. imagine what this looks like even in. success right like let's say it just. starts working wonders for us and we. just we get these great productivity. gains and. okay. so then we cross into the into the you. know whatever the singularity is right. at whatever speed we find ourselves in. the presence of something that is truly. General after all of this stuff is all. of this narrow stuff. uh albeit superhuman narrow stuff is.

is something that we totally depend on. right like every hospital requires it. and every airplane requires it and all. of our missile systems require it and. it's we're just this is the way we do. business. um. there is no there's nothing to turn off. at that point I mean I just don't you. know it's like I guess. I mean I put this to Mark Andreessen on. my podcast and he said yeah you can turn. off the internet I mean I don't I can't. believe he was quite serious I mean yes. if you're North Korea I guess you can.

turn off the internet for North Korea. and that's why North Korea is like North. Korea but the idea that. we could I mean it just the cost of. turning off the internet now would be. uh. I think it would be unimaginable in the. in the in the economic just the economic. cost alone. it just would be. um. so anyway I'm interested the the idea. that we've we've lost the moment to.

decide whether to hook our most powerful. AI to everything. because it's already being built more or. less in contact with if not everything. many so many things that you just can't. put the genie back in the bottle that's. that is genuinely surprising to me and. um. yeah I mean incentives is this not the. most pressing problem then because I I. was going to ask about this conversation. by asking you the question about the.

thing that occupies your mind the most. and the most important thing we should. be talking about and I I in part assume. the answer would be artificial. intelligence because the way that you. talk about your intuition on this. subject matter you've got children. yeah you think about the future a lot. um if you can see this. species coming to Earth in the next even. if it's in the next 100 years. um it strikes me to be the most pressing. problem for Humanity. well I do I'm. as interesting as I think that problem.

is and and consequential as it is. I'm. I'm worried that life could become. unlivable in the near term before we. even get there like I'm just worried. about the the misuses of narrow AI in. the meantime just I'm worried about just. just take the current level of AI we. have you know we have gpt4. um. I I think within the next 12 months or. two years let's say let's say we. whatever GPT 5 is.

we're going to be in the presence of. something where. most of what's online that purports to. the information could soon be fake right. we're like. just most of the text do you find on any. topic is just fake right like someone. has just decided write me a thousand. Journal articles on why mRNA vaccines. cause cancer. and give me you know 150 citations write. them in the in the style of Nature and.

nature genetics and Lancet and Jama. um and just put them out there right. right one teenager could do that in five. minutes with the right AI right it's. like it's just like we're not gpd4 is. not quite that but. gpt5 you know possibly will be them it's. like that that is such a near-term. advance right or get you know just when. you imagine knitting together. the visual stuff like mid-journey and. Dolly. um. and stable diffusion with with a large.

language model. just imagine the tool again this is. maybe this is 18 months away maybe it's. three years away but it's not 30 years. away. the tool which where you can just say. give me a 45 minute documentary on how. the Holocaust never happened filled with. archival imagery give me you know Hitler. speaking in German and with it with the. appropriate translations and. um. give it give it in the style of Alex. Gibney or Ken Burns or and.

give me a 10 000 of those right like. that like that's all all the friction. for misinformation has been taken out of. the system and. yeah I worry we're just going to have to. declare bankruptcy with respect to the. internet like just like we just are not. going to be able to figure out. what's real and when you when you look. at how hard that is now with social. media uh in the in the aftermath of of.

covid and Trump. and how just the challenge for of. holding an election that most of the. population agrees was valid right that. challenge. already. is is. on the verge of being insurmountable in. the U.S right. I mean it's just like it's easy to see. us failing at that AI aside now when you. add a large language models to that and.

the more competent. future version of it where it's just the. most compelling deep fakes are. indistinguishable from. you know real data. um. and everyone is siled into their tribes. where they're stigmatizing the. information that comes from any other. tribe and we're just and the internet is. now so big a place that. there really isn't the ordinary. selection pressures where where bad. information gets successfully debunked. so that it goes away it says you can. live in a conspiracy cult.

for the rest of your life if you want to. you know you can be queuing on all day. long if you want to. and now we've got deep fakes Shoring all. that up. and just spurious you know scientific. articles showing all that up I all this. becomes a more compelling form of. psychosis and you know culturally. speaking and so I'm just worried that. it's good it's going to get harder and. harder. for us to cooperate with one another and.

collaborate. and that our politics Will just. completely break and that'll you know. offer. an opportunity for lots of. you know Bad actors and I mean leaving. aside there's cyber terrorism and. there's their synthetic biology that you. know the moment you get you turn AI. loose on on the on the prospect of. of engineering viruses and you know all. of that it's like it it potentiates I. mean the asymmetry here is that.

it seems like it's it's always easier to. break things than to fix them or to. prevent people categorically prevent. people from breaking them and what we. have with increasingly powerful. technology is the ability for one person. to create more and more damage or one. small group of people right and it was. so it's just. it just turns out it's hard enough to. build a nuclear bomb that like one. person can't really do it you know no. matter how smart you need a team and you.

need to you need. it's traditionally you've needed State. actors and you need you need access to. resources and you have to get the. physical material and. it's hard enough but this isn't this is. being fully democratized this Tech and. so it's. um. yeah I worry about the near-term chaos. I've never found the narrow term. consequences of artificial intelligence. to be that interesting until now is that. what you said that image of like the.

internet becoming unusable so that was a. real Eureka moment for me because I've. not been thinking about that yeah no me. too I was I was just concerned about the. AGI risk and now. really in the in the aftermath of trump. and kovid I've just I see the risk of. um. you know it if not losing everything. losing a lot that matters. just based on our.

and interacting with just these very. simple. tools that that are Mis reliably. misleading us I mean I'm just I'm amazed. at what social media. I forget about I'm amazed at what. Twitter did to me I mean you know even. with all of my. training and all you know with my head. screwed on reasonably straight I mean. it's amazing to say it but. almost all of the truly bad things that. have happened to me in the last decade.

that just really like just destabilized. relationships and. and just priorities and really like I. kind of got plowed back into kind of. became a kind of professional emergency. you know stuff I had to respond to you. know in writing or on podcasts. it was on Twitter it was my my. engagement with Twitter was the thing. that produced the chaos and it was. completely unnecessary. um. and it was just it was amplifying a kind.

of signal for me that I felt compelled. to pay attention to. because I was on it and I was trying to. communicate with people on it I was. getting certain communication back and. it was giving me a picture of the rest. of humanity which I now think was. fundamentally misleading but it was it. was still consequential in its yeah like. even believing it was a certain point. believing that it was misleading wasn't. enough to inoculate me against the. delusion of these kind of the opinion. change that was being forced upon me. um and I was feeling like okay like.

these people are becoming unrecognizable. like I know some of these people I've. had dinner with some of these people and. their behavior on Twitter is is. appearing so deranged to me and so in. such bad faith. um. the people are uh people who I know to. be. non-psychopaths are starting to behave. like Psychopaths at least on Twitter and. I'm becoming similarly unrecognizable to. them that it's just again it it all felt.

like a psychological experiment to which. I hadn't consented which I enrolled. myself somehow because it was. it was what everyone was doing in 2009. um and I spent you know 12 years there. getting some signal and responding to it. and. it's not to say that it was all bad I. mean I read a bunch of good articles. that got linked there and I you know I. discovered some interesting people but. uh. the change in my life after I deleted my.

Twitter account was so enormous I mean. it's embarrassing to admit it I mean. it's just it's like it's like getting. out of a bad relationship and it was. just it was a fundamental. um. just freedom from from this this chaos. Monster that was it was always there. ready to disrupt something but based on. its own Dynamics and when did you do. Lisa.

um yeah like December I think it was. December I would and I'm not someone. that really takes sides on things I like. to try and remain in the middle I think. politically so you must have a very. different Twitter experience than I was. having no no no. so I don't treat anything other than. this podcast trailer don't do anything. else right okay so I just did anything. you'll see on my Twitter is the podcast. trailer that's it yeah and for all the. reasons you've described and more. interestingly I wanted to say in the. last eight months as someone that tries. to be doesn't get caught up too much in.

the media oh Elon bought this it's a. hundred percent gone in that direction. as in my timeline now is I say to my. friends all the time and some of my. friends who are again I think are. nuanced and balanced have said to me the. there's something that's been turned up. in the algorithm to increase engagement. that has planted me in an unpleasant. Echo chamber that I didn't desire to be. in and if I wasn't Cog somewhat. conscious I would 100 be in there my. timeline my friend tweet the other day. my friend Castle tweeted he's never seen.

more people die on his Twitter timeline. than he has in the last six months. they're prioritizing video so you're. seeing a lot of like. death in CCTV footage that I've never. seen before and then the debate around. gender. um politics. right-leaning subject matter has never. been more right down your throat yeah. because it's been it's almost like. something in the algorithm has been. switched where it's now it's now like. people have been let out the Asylum. that's you know I can describe it. and it's made me retract even more so.

when Zuckerberg announced threads the. other the other couple of weeks ago. it was kind of like a a life raft right. out of this out of the Titanic. um and I really really mean that and I'm. not someone to get easily caught up in. narrative you know as it relates to. social media platforms it's been my. industry for a decade but what I've seen. on Twitter and it's actually made me. believe this hypothesis I had five years. ago where I thought they would be. um I thought the the Journey of social. networking would be would have way more. social networks and they'd be more siled.

I thought we'd have one for our. neighborhood our football club and now I. believe that even more than ever yeah. that seems right and I think I mean. whether it's possible to have a truly. healthy social network that people want. to be in and it's a good reason to be. there and it's it's uh I don't know if. that's possible I I like to think it is. but it's um. I think there's certain things you you. have to. clean up. at the outset that is supposed to make.

it possible I mean I think I think. anonymity is a bad thing I think. um. probably being free is a bad thing I. think for you if you know you sort of. get what you pay for online and if it's. if it's uh I just think they're there. there might be ways to set it up that. where it would be better but I don't. think it would be popular. was that I think with the thing that. makes it popular makes it toxic right. right and even the anonymity piece I've. played this out a couple of times in my. mind and the rebuttal I always get is. well there's people in Syria who have.

news to break important needs to break. and they they'd be hung if they. so we need a Anonymous version of the. social internet right yeah well I guess. there could be some exception there but. um. I don't know it just doesn't it actually. doesn't interest me. because. I just feel such. a different sense of. my being in the world as a result of not. paying attention to.

the my online. simulacrum of myself is it's it's a um. because Twitter was the only one I used. like I was on I've been on Facebook this. whole time I've been on I think I I. guess I'm on Instagram too but like my. team just uses those as marketing. channels you know it's just like you it. sounds like that's the way you use. Twitter now but Twitter was the the one. that I decided okay this is going to be. me. I'm gonna be posting here I'm gonna you. know if if I've made a mistake I want to. hear about it you know it's like and I.

just want to use it as actual uh an. actual basis for communication. um. and for the longest time it actually. felt like a valid tool in that respect. you know it reached a crisis point I. decided this is just pure toxicity. there's just no reason even the good. stuff can't possibly make a dent in the. bad stuff so I just deleted it and then. I was I was returned to the real world. right where I've where I actually live.

and to books and to I mean I'm online. all the time anyway but up but it's not. having the this is the time course of. reactivity. when you don't have social media when. you don't wait and you don't have a. place to put this this instantaneous hot. take. that you're tempted to be put out into. the world because there's literally no. place to put it like if like for for me. if I have some reaction to something in. the news. I have to decide whether it's worth.

talking about it in my next podcast that. I might be recording you know four days. from now. and rather often people have been just. bloviating about this thing for four. solid days before I ever get to the. microphone and I then I get to think. well this is still worth talking about. in most almost nothing survives that. test anymore right it's like the. conversations moved on. so there's actually no place for me to. just type this thing that either takes. me 10 seconds and then rolls out there.

to get. to detonate in the minds of you know my. friends and enemies to opposite effect. and then I see the the result of all. that you know on a again on a the sort. of reinforcement Loop of every 15. minutes. um. not having that is such a relief that I. just don't even know why I would so like. when threads was announced I wasn't I. think I'm on threads too but it's not me.

it's just you know just again another. marketing channel. um but yeah I haven't I feel such relief. not. exercising that muscle anymore where. it's like I I you know I don't know how. often I was checking. Twitter but it was I was you know I was. not checking it just to see what was. happening to me or what the response to. my La the last thing I tweeted I was. checking it a lot because it was my news. feed it's like I'm following you know. 200 smart people they're telling me what.

they're paying attention to and so I'm. fascinated so yeah well yeah I want to. see that next article or that next video. just that engagement and the endless. opportunity to comment and to put my. foot in my mouth or put my foot in. someone else's mouth or have someone put. their foot it's just. not having that has been such relief. that I would be I mean it's not. impossible but I would be very. cautious in reactivating that because it. was it was so much noise and again it. would it created.

there's so much it became a. uh I mean it became an opportunity cost. but it became a just this endless. opportunity for misunderstanding but. especially misunderstanding of me and. you know everything I've been putting. out into the world and then my sense. that I had to react to it and then you. just can't plow that. back into the. you know that that becomes the basis for.

further misunderstanding. um. and it just it constantly was giving me. the sense that there's something there's. something I need to react to on my. podcast in an article on Twitter. that. it's just this is a valid signal like. this is this is this is like this is a. five alarm fire this is like you got to. stop everything like you're by the pool. on the One Vacation you're taking with. your family that summer and. this thing just happened on your phone. that like it can't wait right like you. actually have to pay attention because.

it's like the conversation is happening. right now and so it was a kind of. addiction to information and right you. know some level reputation management or. or or. [Music]. um. and it was just I mean just yeah to just. be free of it is such a relief apart. from like you know. health issues with certain family. members. virtually the only bad things that have. happened to me have been a result of my.

engagement with Twitter over. the last 10 years. so it's just it's just you know I I you. know I guess I'm if I'm a masochist I. would be back on Twitter but like that. would be the only reason to do it narrow. AI I asked you the question a second. year which we um. I really wanted to get a solution to it. because I'm mildly terrified I. completely believe you'll believe your. um the logic underneath your opinion. that narrow area will cause this. um destabilization and usability of the.

internet. so just focusing on narrow AI what what. would you consider to be a solution to. prevent us getting to that world where. misinformation is right to the point. that it can destabilize Society politics. and culture. well I think it's something I've been. asking people about on my podcast is. because it's not actually my wheelhouse. and I would just need to hear from. experts about what's possible. technically here but. um. I'm imagining that.

paradoxically or ironically. this could Usher in a new kind of. gatekeeping that we're going to rely on. because like the provenance of. information is going to be so important. I mean the the the the assurance that a. video has not been manipulated or. there's not a a just a pure confection. of. of deep fakery. right so you get so. it could be that we're we're Meandering. into a new period where.

you're not going to trust a photo unless. it's come it's coming from you know. Getty Images or you know the New York. Times has some story how the about how. they have verified every photo in their. that they put in their newspaper they. have a process and you know so if you. see a a a video of of Vladimir Putin. seeming to say that he's. declaring war on the U.S. right I think. most people are going to assume that's. fake until proven otherwise it's like.

it's just it's just going to be too much. fake stuff and it's going to be it's all. going to look so good that the New York. Times and every other you know. organ of media that we have relied upon. um as imperfect as they've been of late. they're going to have to figure out what. the tools are whereby they can say okay. this is actually a video of Putin right. and if the new I mean I'm not going to. be able to figure it out on my own right. the New York Times doesn't have a. process or CNN doesn't have a process.

that they go through before they say. Okay Putin really said this and so this. is we have to now react to this because. this is real. um. whatever that process is and you know. whether it's whether there's some kind. of digital Watermark that you know. that's connected to the blockchain. that's I mean there's there's some tech. implementation of it that can be fully. democratized where you by just being in. the latest version of the Chrome browser. can know that you're so you you can.

differentiate you know real and fake. videos say I don't know what the. implementation will be but I just I just. know we're going to get to some spot. where it's going to be all right. we have to declare epistemological. bankruptcy we don't know what's real we. have to assume anything especially lurid. or agitating is fake until proven. otherwise so prove otherwise. and that's you know that that'll be a. resetting of something I don't know.

what we do with that in a world where we. really don't have that much time to. react to certain things that are you. know a video of Putin saying he's. launched his big missiles. is something that you know 30 minutes. from now we would we would understand. whether it's real or not. I mean forget about again forget about. everything we just said about AI. look at all of our Legacy risks look at. the risk of nuclear war the the risk of. stumbling into a nuclear war by accident.

has been hanging over our head for 70. years I mean we've got this old Tech. we've got these wonky radar systems that. throw up errors we've we have. moments in history where. you know one Soviet sub-commander. decided based on his just gut feeling. his common sense that the data was. almost certainly an error and he decided. not to pass the the the the obvious.

evidence of a an American ICBM launch up. the chain of command knowing that the. chain of command would say okay you have. to fire. right and he reasoned that if the U.S. was going to attack the Soviet Union. they would launch more than I think in. this case it looked like there were four. missiles that was the radar signature. if the us is going to launch a first. strike against the the Soviet Union in. one of this like the mid 80s. um.

they're going to launch more than four. missiles right this has to be this has. to be bad data right so this is that but. you know so if we automate all this will. we automate it to systems that have that. kind of common sense right. um. but. we've been perched on the on the edge of. the Abyss based on this this the. possible forget about malevolent actors. you know who might decide to have a. nuclear war on purpose we have the. possibility of of accidental nuclear war.

you add this cacophony of misinformation. and deep fake to all of that and it just. gets scarier and scarier and this is. just this is not even AI this is just. you know you know narrow AI Amplified. misinformation how do you feel about it. well I mean this is the thing that. worries me I I worry about the next. election you know I think the next. president if we can run the 2024. election in a way that most of America. acknowledges was valid.

that will be an amazing Victory you know. whatever the outcome I mean obviously I. would not be looking forward to a trump. presidency but um. I think even more fundamental than that. is can we hold a presidential election. 18 months from now. that is that we recognize as valid right. like that I I don't know I don't know. what kind of resources are being spent. on on that particular.

performance but that is hugely important. and. I don't think. our near-term experiments with AI is. going to make that easier why is it so. important. well it's just I mean if you think the. maintenance of. of uh a valid democracy in in the. world's low in superpower is is of minor. importance I. um I'd like to drink the tea you're. drinking. but yeah it's Mystic.

I mean I I'm I can't say I'm optimistic. I'm you know it's. it's a paradoxical State I mean because. I I definitely I I tend to focus on. what's wrong or might be wrong. I tend to. I think have a a pessimistic bias right. like I I tend to notice what's wrong as. opposed to what's right you know I mean. that's my. um. that's my bias but.

I'm actually very happy right like I. have a very a very good life I'm just. like everything is is I just I'm. incredibly lucky I'm surrounded by great. people it's like it's just it's all. great. and yet I see all of these. risks on the horizon so I'm like I'm not. um. I just I have a very high degree of. well-being at this moment in my life and. yet I like what's on the television is. scary and so it's it's it's very.

interesting juxtaposition yeah. you know I will be I'll be very relieved. if we have a. busy or just I feel like we're in a very. weird spot I mean like the I haven't. seen a. a full postmortem on the coveted. pandemic that has fully encapsulated. what I think we what I think happened to. us there but my my vague sense is that. we didn't learn a whole hell of a lot I. mean basically what we learned is we're.

really bad at responding to this kind of. thing this was a challenge that that. just fragmented us as a society it could. have brought us together. it didn't. and. it it Amplified all of the the divisions. in our society politically and and. economically and tribally in all kinds. of ways the role of misinformation and. disinformation on all of that was was. all too clear and I think just getting.

worse so I think you know as a dress. rehearsal for some future pandemic. that's that is inevitably going to come. and is you know could well be worse I. think we failed this dress rehearsal and. you know I have to hope that at some. point our institutions. will reconstitute themselves so as to be. obviously trustworthy and engender the. kind of trust we actually need to have. at our institutions like we need a CDC. that not only that we trust but that is.

trustworthy that we that we that we're. right to trust right. and and so it is with an FDA and every. other you know institution that that is. relevant here and. we don't quite have that and half of our. society thinks we don't have that at all. right and and so it's. um we have to rebuild trust in. institutions somehow and I just think. you know we have a lot of work to do but. to even figure out how to make.

an increment of progress on that score. because. we're again the siloing of of large. constituents into alternate. information universes is just just not. functional and that's so much of what. social media has done to us and. alternative media I mean like you know I. call it you know you and I are. podcasters but I call it podcast to Stan. right we have this this landscape of I. mean there's now whatever million plus.

podcasts and there's. you know you email newsletters and. everyone has now just decided to curate. their information diet in a way that's. just bespoke to them and. you can stay there forever and you're. getting you're getting one slice of and. it could be a you know. a completely fictional slice of of. reality and. um we're losing the ability to converge. on a common picture of what's going on.

and you. so did that sound optimistic I didn't. hear the optimism there you tell me no I. I no I but I I kind of can't refuse to. anything you said on a like a logical. basis it all sounds. um like that is the direction of travel. that we're going in unfortunately. um I have faith that they'll be. surprising. positives it always tends to be. surprising positives that we also didn't. factor in. um it's easy to see. I mean if there's anything if there's.

any significant low-hanging fruit. technologically or or. scientifically that could be AI. enabled for us let me just take like you. know a cure for cancer a cure for. Alzheimer's I mean just having one thing. like that. right that would be such an enormous. good. um. and that so that that is that's what. that's why we can't get off this ride. and that's why there is no break to pull.

because the value of intelligence. is so enormous I mean it is it is just. it's not everything I mean it's not that. you know there's there are other things. we care about and a right to care about. Beyond intelligence I mean love is not. the same thing as intelligence right but. intelligence is the thing that can. Safeguard everything you love right like. even if you think the whole point in. life is to just get on a beach with your. friends and your family and just hang.

out and enjoy the sunset. okay. you don't have to augment you you don't. need superhuman intelligence to do any. of that right you're you're fit to do it. exactly as you are you could have done. that in the 70s and it would just be. just as good a beach and they'd be just. as good friends. but. every gain we make in intelligence is. the thing that safeguards that. opportunity for you and everyone else. how would you I feel like we've not. defined the time artificial general. intelligence from my understanding of it.

it's when the the intelligence can think. and make decisions almost like a human. yeah maybe Loosely this. this is a kind of just a semantic. problem but. intelligence can mean many things but. you know Loosely speaking it is the. ability to solve problems. uh and. meet goals make decisions. in response to a changing environment in. response to data.

um. and the general. aspect of that is an ability to do that. in across in many different situations. all the sort of situations we encounter. as people. and to have one's capacity in one area. not you know as I get better at deciding. whether or not this is a cup I don't. magically get worse at deciding whether. you know you just said a word right it's.

like I can do but it's like I can do. multiple things in multiple channels. that's not something we had in our. artificial systems for the longest time. because we were everything was bespoke. to the task we'd build a chess engine. and it couldn't even play Tic-Tac-Toe. all I could do was play chess and they. could and we and we just would get. better and better in these in these. piecemeal narrow ways and then. things began to change a few years ago. where you'd get you know with like deep. mind would it would have its algorithms.

that were. uh you know the same algorithm with. slightly different tuning could play go. right or it could you know it could. solve a protein folding problem as. opposed to just playing chess right and. it became the best in the world at chess. and I became the best in the world to go. and. um. and amazingly I mean to take you know. Alphas what Alpha zero did. it. you know before Alpha zero. all the chess algorithms were they just.

had all of our chess knowledge plowed. into them if they had studied every. human game of chess and they just it was. just you know it was. it was a bespoke chess engine Alpha zero. just played itself I think for like four. hours right it just it just had the. rules of Chess and then it played itself. and it became better not. merely than every other every person. who's ever played the game it became. better than all the chess engines that.

had all of the the all of our chest. knowledge plowed into them so you it's a. fundamentally new moment in in how you. build an intelligent system. and it promises this this possibility. again. this inevitability the moment you admit. that we will eventually get there the. moment the moment you admit. that it's it can be done in silico. and the moment that you admit that we. will just keep going unless a.

catastrophe happens. and those two things are so easy to. admit that I just don't at this point I. don't see any place to stand where. you're not forced to admit them right I. don't see any neuroscientific or. cognitive scientific. argument for. substrate dependence for intelligence. given what we've already built and. again we're we're going to keep going. until something stops us right we'll hit. some immovable object that prevents us. from releasing the next iPhone but other.

otherwise we're going to keep going and. then yeah so then it then we'll whatever. General will mean. in that first case they'll be a case. where. we've built a system that is so good at. everything we care about. that is functionally General now maybe. it's missing something maybe it's not. you know maybe it's missing something. that we don't even have a name for you. know we're missing all kinds of their. possible intelligences that we haven't. even thought about because we just. haven't thought about them right there.

there's the things that there are ways. to section the universe undoubtedly that. we can't even conceive of because we are. just we have the minds we have Elon was. asked a question on this by journalists. the journalist said to him in a world. where you believe that to be true that. artificial general intelligence is. around the corner when your kids come to. you and say Daddy what should I do with. my life. Define purpose and meaning. what advice do you now give them if you. hold that intuition to be true.

that it's around the corner. what do you say to your children when. they say what should I do with my life. to create purpose and meaning and. did you say that Elon answered this. question yeah what did he say it's one. of the most chilling moments in an. interview I think I've seen in recent. times because he stutters he goes silent. for about 15 seconds which is very. annelon he stutters he stutters. um he stutters a bit more because he. can't. and then he says he thinks he's suspend.

he's living in suspended disbelief. because if you've really thought about. it too much what's the point he says. what's the point of me building all. these cars he was in his Tesla Factory. what's the point of me building all. these cars and what's the point I do. think that sometimes so I think I have. to live in as his words were suspended. disbelief right well I would encourage. him to ask what's the point of spending. so much time on Twitter because that he. could clearly benefit from. rethinking that but. um that aside. I mean my answer to that is.

and I think other people have echoed. this of late. um. I mean it's sort of surprising to me my. answer is that. this begins to privilege. a return to the the humanities as a kind. of a core like the center of of of mass. intellectually for us because when you. look at what we're. really good at and. uh. it's among the last things that can be.

plausibly automated. uh and if if we automate it. we may cease to care about it so it's. like. learning to write good code is something. that is going to be it's being automated. now it's it is you know I'm not a. programmer but. um you know I have it on good authority. that already these large language models. are improving code and something like. half the time they're writing better. code than than people. that's all going to become like chess.

right it's just it's going to be better. than people ultimately. um. so being a software engineer is. something that you know and being a. radiologist and being like those things. it's easy to see how AI just cancels. those professions or at least makes one. person. you know so effective at using AI tools. that you know one person can do the work. of 100 people so you've got 99 people. who don't have to be doing that job. um.

but. creating art and you know writing novels. and being a philosopher and uh. talking about. what it means and to live a good life. and how to do it it's like that's that's. something that if we. we have we have to look at those we have. to look at. where we're going to care that we're.

actually in relationship to and in. dialogue with. an another person who's who we know to. be conscious. right like where we don't care about. that we're not going to care we're going. to want just the best version of it like. I don't care if the cure for cancer. comes from an incentive and AI. I do not give a I just want the. cure for cancer right like there's no. added value. that where I find out okay the person. who gave me this cure really felt good. about it and he's you know he had tears.

in his eyes when he figured out the Cure. every engineering problem is like that. we want safer planes we want you know we. just want things to work we're not. sentimental about the the Artistry that. went into all of that. uh and when the difference when the gulf. between the best and the mediocre gets. big and consequential. we're just going to want the best we're. just going to want the best all the way. down the line but what is the best novel. right what is the best podcast.

conversation what is it and can you. subtract out. the the conscious person from that and. still think it's the best and and so. like so someone once sent me a um. what purported to be I didn't even. listen to it so I'm not even sure what. it was but it looked like it was an AI. generated conversation between. Alan Watts and Terence McKenna right. both guys who I love I remember I didn't. know either of them but fans of both.

have listened to hundreds of hours of. both talk as far as I know they never. met each other it would have been a. fascinating conversation. um I realized my when I looked at this. YouTube video I realized I simply don't. care how good this is because I only. care if it was actually Alan Watts and. Terence McKenna talking like a. simulacrum of Alan Watson and Terence. McKenna in this context. I don't care about right so another use.

case I I stumbled upon. I was playing with with chat GPT and. I asked it you know the causes of World. War II you know give me 500 words on the. cost of World War II because it gives. you this perfect little you know bullet. pointed essay on the cause of World War. II. that's exactly what I want from it. that's fine that's like I don't care. that it was there was no person behind. that typing. but when I when I think well. do I want to re read.

Churchill's you know history of World. War II it's on my shelf to read as I you. know it's like I'm one of these. aspirational sets of books haven't read. it yet. um. I actually want to read it because. Churchill wrote it right like that. that's why and if you could give me an. AI version of Churchill saying this is. in the style of Churchill it's very even. Churchill Scholars say this sounds like. Churchill. I actually don't care about it like like. that's not the used I I'll take the. generic use of you know give me the cost.

of World War II. the fake Churchill is profoundly. uninteresting to me the real real. Churchill even though he's dead is is. interesting to me so the rebuttal I give. here and this is what my mind is doing. is yeah saying this. the distinction you're you're presenting. the the difference I see is that in the. case of the conversation between two. people you respect that has been. generated by AI someone has signaled you. that that it is fake. if you remove that because say Churchill. thought yeah why would I write a book.

when I could just click a button and. this thing will write it in my in my. voice in my tone of voice with my you. know with the entire the entire back. catalog of things I've written before. and it will produce my my account and it. will save me time so I'll just click a. button my publisher maybe will do it for. me and then I'll sell that to Sam on the. basis that it is. um my thoughts which I imagine I I can. imagine a very near future if we just do. it by percentage how many books are. going to be increasingly written by. artificial intelligence to the point.

that when you look at a shelf I imagine. at some point in the future if the. intelligence does increase. um by any measure that most of it would. be words strung together by artificial. intelligence and it will be selling. potentially better than the words. written by humans so again when we go. back to the conversation with your your. children. there might not be a career there either. because artificial intelligence is. faster can produce more contest and. iterate on whether it sells better.

clicks gets more clicks it can write the. headline create the picture write the. content and then I can just take the. chat because I put my name to it. yeah. so I go even in that regard what remains. well so in the limit. what I think we're imagining is a world. where. and so none of the terror none of the. terrifyingly bad things have happened so. it's just all working we're just. producing a ton of great stuff that is.

better than the human stuff and people. are losing their job so we gotta we got. a labor disruption but we're not talking. about any other kind of political. catastrophe or or you know cyber. apocalypse. um. much less AGI destroying everything. um. then I think we just need a different. economic assumption and ethical. intuition around the value of work I. mean our default Norm now. in a capitalist Society is you have to.

figure out something to do with most of. your time. that other people are willing to pay you. for. right you have to figure out how to add. value to other people's lives such that. you reliably. get paid otherwise. you might die right like we've got a. social safety net but it's it's pretty. meager you know we're not we're there. are cracks you can follow through you. could wind up homeless and we're not. going to figure out what to do about. that we're all too well you know and.

um. your so your claim Upon Your Existence. Among Us. you finding something to do with your. time that other people will pay you for. right. and now we've got artificial. intelligence removing some of those. opportunities creating others but in the. limit. and I do think it is different from I. think analogies to other moments in in. technological history are fundamentally.

flawed I think this is a a technology. which in the limit will replace jobs and. not create better new jobs in in their. wake right it's just this just cancels. the need for. for human labor ultimately. and it's strangely it replaces some of. the highest status most cognitively. intensive Jobs first right you know it. replaces replaces Elon Musk before it.

replaces your electrician or your. plumber or your masseuse way before. right so we have to internalize the the. reality of that if again this is in. success this is not it's all good things. happening right. um. and we have to have a new ethic we have. to have a new economics based on that. ethic which is. you know Ubi is one solution to this. like you shouldn't have to work to. survive right Universal basic income. yeah there's there's so much abundance.

now being created. we have to figure out how to spread this. wealth around right we've got a cure for. cancer over here we've got perfect. you know. photovoltaic uh. driven economies over here where it's. like we've solved the climate change. issue you know we're just pulling wealth. out of The Ether essentially. um we've got you know nanotechnology. that is just birthing whole new. Industries yeah but it's all being. driven by AI we don't you know there's.

no room in this whenever you put a. person. in the in the. CH in the decision chain you're just. adding noise this is the best thing this. should be the best thing that's ever. happened to us this is just like God. handing us the perfect labor-saving. device. right the machine that can build every. other machine they can do anything you. could possibly want. we should figure out how to spread the. wealth around in that case right this is. just powered by sunlight no more Wars.

over resource extraction. it can build anything. we can all be on the beach just hanging. out with our friends and family right. like do you believe we should do. Universal basic income where everybody's. given like a month so something we have. to break this connection again this is. this is. what will have to happen in the presence. of this kind of Labor Force dislocation. enabled by. all of this going perfectly well right.

like this again just as pure success. just AI is just producing good things. and the only bad thing is is putting all. these people out of work you know it's. coming for your job eventually I've. heard this and I've my issue with it am. I rebuttal when I talk to my friends. about this idea of universal basic. income when we you know we hand out. enough casual resources to people so. that they're stable which I'm not. necessarily against but just just want. to play with it a little bit is humans. seem to have an innate an innate desire. for purpose and meaning and we seem to. be designed and built psychologically.

for labor and for a discomfort but it. doesn't have to be labor that's tied to. money right like it can be like we we. will get our status in other ways and. we'll get our meaning in other ways and. again this is all these are all just. Stories We Tell ourselves I mean like. you know you're talking to a person who. knows it's possible to be happy. actually doing nothing right like like. just sitting in a room for a month right. and just staring at the wall right. because I've done it like that's. possible right so so and yet that's most.

people's worst nightmare you know it's a. solitary confinement in a prison is. considered a torture right and I know. people who spent 20 years in in a cave. right so it's like there's a their. capacities here that we're talking about. but. um. just more more commonly I think we will. we want to be entertained we want to. have fun we want to be with the people. we love we want to be. useful in relationship and.

insofar as that gets uncoupled from the. necessity of working to survive right it. doesn't all just go away we just need. new norms and new ethics and new. conversations around what we do on. vacation right it's like so what what. you're imagining is that if you put. everyone on vacation on the best. vacation you can make the vacation as. good as possible. a majority of people will eventually be.

miserable because they're they're not. back at work. right and yet they're most of these. people are working so that they have. enough money so they could finally take. that vacation right we will figure out a. new way to be happy. on the beach right I mean like if you. can't if you get bored with frisbee we. will figure something else out that is. fun you know you you can re you know. I'll be able to read The Churchill. history of World War II on the beach. and not be rushed by any other. imperative because I'm you know I I I'm.

happily retired right because my AI is. creating the thing that is solving all. my economic problems right. um. you know we should be so lucky as to is. to have that be our problem like how to. be happy in conditions of no economic. imperative no basis for political Strife. on the on the basis of scarce resources. and no question about the the question. of survival is off the table.

one does with one's time and attention. right you can be as lazy as you want and. you'll still survive you can be as. unlucky as you. as you want and you and you'll still. survive and they could the awful. situation we're in now is that. differences in luck. mean everything right you know someone. is born in a in without any of the. advantages that we have.

we don't have a s we don't have a system. we have an economic system that reliably. gives them every advantage and. opportunity opportunity they could have. right so it's like it's we just. we um. we don't have the re you know we. apparently we've convinced ourselves we. either don't have the resources or we've. convinced ourselves we don't have the. resources we don't have the incentive. such that we access the resources so as. to actually come to the help of people. we could help right I mean the idea that.

people starve to death is just it's. unimaginable and yet it still happens. you know that's not a scarcity problem. it's a political problem wherever it. happens and yet all of this is tied to a. system where everyone has convinced. themselves. that is normal. to really have one survival be in. question. if one doesn't work. right and and we by choice or by. accident like like if you get if you. haven't you know.

I think I think it's still true that in. the at least in the U.S this is almost. certainly not true in the UK but in the. U.S. the most common reason for a personal. bankruptcy is um you know overwhelming. medical expense that just comes upon you. for whatever reason well you know your. wife gets cancer you guys go bankrupt. solving the cancer problem or failing to. solve the cancer problem and now. everything else unravels right and we we. have a society which thinks yeah well. unlucky you you know that's.

you know if you wind up homeless just. don't sleep in front of my store because. I need my you know you're going to hurt. my business. um like you know successful AI. that cancels lots of jobs would be it. would be it would only be canceling. those jobs by virtue of producing so. many good things. so much value for everybody that we. would we would have to figure out how to. spread that wealth around otherwise we'd. yeah otherwise we would have a.

and you know if. an amazing amazingly dystopian. bottleneck for a few short years and. then we would just have a revolution. right then we'd then the guys in their. in their you know gated communities. making trillions of dollars based on. them having you know gotten close enough. to the gpus uh that they that it you. know some of it rubbed off on them. um. yeah they'd be dragged out of their. houses and off their Gulf streams and.

you know we would have a fundamental. reset we have a hard reset of the. political system. if I had to put you in a yes or no. situation and ask your intuition the. question now that if your objective was. to which I'm sure it is is to encourage. the betterment of humanity and to. increase our odds of happiness and. well-being 100 years from now. um and there was a button placed in. front of you and it would either end the. development of artificial intelligence. as we've seen it over the last decade so.

it would never we'd never proceed with. developing intelligent machines. um or not so you could press a button. and stop it right now. stop it permanently such that we never. then do that thing we just never figure. out how to build intelligent machines. pause it indefinitely. well I would definitely pause it. to a point where we would we would could.

get our heads around the alignment. problems permanently. if the button was a permanent pause that. you couldn't undo. well the question is how deep does that. go so like we we have everything we have. now but we just yeah it just never gets. better than yeah we never make progress. from here right. um and your objective is to make. Humanity happy and prosperous. it's hard because when you when you. begin. imagining all of the good stuff that we. could get with with aligned superhuman.

AI well then you know then the it's just. you know Cornucopia upon Cornucopia it's. just everything is everything is. potentially Within Reach. yeah I mean I I take the existential. risk scenario seriously enough that I. would I would pause it you know I would. say I mean I think we will get we will. eventually get to if. if curing cancer is a is a biomedical. engineering problem that admits of a. solution and I I think there's every.

reason to believe it ultimately would be. we will eventually get there based on. our own you know muddling along with our. you know current level of tech you know. currently a information Tech. um I'm you know reasonably confident of. that. um. because I mean aren't you know our. intelligence shows every sign of being. General it's just it's not um. it's not as fast as we would want it to.

be it's not it's not what the thing that. AI is going to give us is is going to. give us. uh. speed that is. um I mean there's speed and there's the. the access there's memory right it's. like and like we we can't integrate we. don't have the ability we have. no person or team of people can. integrate all of the data we already. have right so that like the the real. promise here is that. a these systems will be able to find.

patterns that we wouldn't even know how. to look for and then do something on the. basis of those patterns you know I think. an intelligent search within the data. space You Know by by Apes like ourselves. will eventually do uh most of the the. great things we want done and you know. the there isn't there isn't uh. I mean the pro the problems we need to. solve. so as to safeguard the the.

[Music]. um. the the career of our species and to. make civilization durable and sane and. and. uh. to remove this sort of Damocles that is. over our heads at every moment that you. know at any moment we could just decide. to have a a nuclear war that ruins. everything or or create a a an. engineered pandemic that ruins. everything. we don't need superhuman intelligence to.

solve all those problems and we need the. we need an appropriate emotional. response to the the. the untenability of the status quo and. we need we need a political dialogue. that eventually transcends our our. tribalism for those of you that don't. know this podcast is sponsored by Weaver. company that I'm a shareholder in and. I'm obsessed with my woop it's glued to. my wrist 24 7. and for those of you that. don't know it's essentially a. personalized wearable health and fitness. coach that helps me to have the best. possible Health my whip has literally.

changed my life whip is doing something. this month which I'd highly suggest. checking out it's a global Community. challenge called The Core 4 challenge. essentially they guide you through a set. of four activities throughout the month. of August that are scientifically proven. to improve your overall health I'm. giving it a go and I can't wait to see. the impact it has on me and I highly. recommend you to join me with that so if. you're not on weep here there is no. better time to start if you're a friend. of mine there's a high probability that. I've already given you a week because. I'm that obsessed with it it is the. thing that I checked when I wake up in. the morning it's the first thing that I. look at I want the information on my.

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Greens in our diet and a while ago I. started pressing my friends at hewell to. come out with a product that did exactly. that allowed you to have all those. greens the vitamins and minerals you. need in a drink and after several. several several months of iterations and. processes they released this product. called huel Daily Greens which is now. one of my favorite products from heel. because it tastes great and it fills. that very important nutritional Gap that. I had in my diet the problem is.

it launched in the US and it sold out. straight away and became a Smash Hit for. fuel for the rare reasons I've described. it's now back in stock in the United. States but it's not here in the UK yet. so if you're a UK listener which I know. a lot of you are it's not yet available. so. let's all attack you let's DM them. everywhere we can and tell them to bring. huel Daily Greens to the UK this is the. product when it is available in the UK. I'm going to let you know first but. until then let's spam their DMs.

you and I'd say a few others maybe two. or three others help change my mind. about one of the most profound things I. think anyone could believe which was. when I was 18 I believed in Christianity. and then there was a couple of moments. that shook my belief nothing on a. personal level just a couple of ideas. that managed to sort of. infect my operating system that led my. curiosity towards. um your work and I changed my mind. profoundly it's such a profound change.

that I had. um how do we change our minds and I and. I really want to I really want to focus. that question on the the individual the. individual's mind like I want to change. my mind I want better beliefs better. ideas in my head that are going to allow. me to get out of my own way. um because I I'm not achie I'm miserable. I'm not living the life that I. I would say I know I can live but some. people don't even know they can live.

live a better life I'm not happy that's. the signal. and I want to I want to rectify this in. some way. yeah well there are a few. bright lines for me I mean like take um. our ethical lives and our relationships. to to other people right so. um there's there's the problem of. individual well-being that kind of is. still real even if you're in a moral. Solitude if you're you know on a desert. island by yourself. you really don't have ethical questions.

that are emerging because you're not in. relationship to anybody else but you. still have the problem of how to be. happy. but so much of our unhappiness is in. collaboration with others right we're. unhappy in our relationships we're. unhappy professionally. um. and it's worth looking at how we're. behaving with other people. uh for me that the the highest leverage. change. I ever made and it's against it's very. easy to spell out and it's very.

clear. um. and ultimately it's pretty easy is just. to decide that you're not going to lie. about anything really I mean there might. be some situations in extremis where. you'll feel forced to lie but those you. know in my view are are analogous to. acts of violence that you may be forced. to to use in self-defense right so like. a line is sort of the first stage on the.

Continuum of violence for me right so. like I'm not going to lie to someone. unless I I recognize that this is not a. rational actor who I can possibly. collaborate with this is someone I have. to be. um I have to avoid or defeat or. otherwise you know contain the the their. propensity for to do me harm uh so yes. if the Nazis come to the door and ask if. you've got Anne Frank in the Attic yes. you can lie or you can shoot them or you. can these are not normal circumstances.

but that aside every other moment in. life where people are tempted to lie. um. is one that I I think you can. categorically. rule out as being unethical and being. Beyond unethical. it's just not it's. it's creating. a. a life you don't when you when you. examine it you don't want to live right. in the moment you know that you're not.

going to lie to people and they know. that about you. um. the the. it's like all of the dials get the. social dials get sort of recalibrated on. both sides and then. you find yourself. in the presence of of people who. don't ask you for your opinion unless. they really want it right and then and. then when you're honest I mean then then. it's. it's not it's a night and day difference.

when you're giving people feedback. critical feedback and. they know you're honest right they know. they're they they're you know they're. they're detector is not going. off because they just know you're you're. even when it's not convenient you're. being honest and or even when it's not. comfortable you're being honest. um. one that's incredibly valuable because. basically you're you're giving them the. information that you would want if you.

were in their shoes right because we. have this sort of delusion that takes. over us when whenever we're tempted to. tell a white lie we imagine okay. this person doesn't want it much better. for me to just tell them the kind. fiction and then tell them the the. uncomfortable truth right but we don't. do the so we don't even calculate that. you know for the Golden Rule there most. of the time and we if you if you just. took a moment you'd realize oh wait a. minute. does someone who.

is actually doing a bad job want me to. tell them that they're doing a good job. and then just send them out into the. world to bounce around other people who. are going to be recognizing as I just. did that the thing they're doing isn't. so great right. um you're just not doing them a favor. right this is part of the nature of. belief changes in it that when someone. we believe that someone is on our side. or We Believe from like a political. standpoint that they they represent the.

99 of the views that we represent we're. much more likely to change our beliefs. expect to tally Shara about this the. neuroscientist and I wrote about this in. a chapter in my upcoming book about how. you how you change people's minds and. they showed in the elections that if. like a flat earther says something to a. flat earther about the nature of the. earth I believe it but if NASA says. something to a flat earther they will. just dismiss on site because the source. of that information is not one that they. believe or trust or like or believe is. well-intentioned I mean this this is a. bug not a feature I mean it's. understandable but this is something we.

have to grow Beyond because the the the. truth is the truth right so you can't. I mean again it goes in both directions. the person on your team who you love and. respect is capable of. in their very next sentence of speaking. of falsehood right and you need to be. able to to detect that. and conversely you know the the person. you least respect is capable of saying. something that's that's quite incisive. and worth taking on board and and so.

that's we have to. we have to have this sort of meta. cognitive. layer where we're noticing how we're. getting played by our. our social alliances and. recognize that the truth and and rather. often important truths are are um. uh evaluated by different principles I. mean it's not a matter of the message. the messenger you know you shouldn't. shoot the messenger and you shouldn't. worship Him you mentioned lying as being.

a well. removing lying and being more honest as. being a significant step change in your. own happiness. is that accurate in my happiness and. your happiness yeah yeah. um yeah immensely so because it's it's. how practically and specifically how. so you I mean when you look at how. people ruin their reputations and their. relationships and their businesses their. careers. the gateway to all of the misbehavior.

that accomplishes that is line it's I. mean look at somebody that Lance. Armstrong right I mean just or Tiger. Woods right these guys are the absolute. apogee of sport. they everyone loves them everyone's just. amazed at what they're what they've. accomplished. and. yet you know the the dysfunction in. their lives just gets vomited up for all. to see at a certain point and. it was just enabled at every stage along.

the way by lying right so if if if. either of them had early in their career. before they became famous before they. became rich. before they became tempted to do. anything. um that was gonna. derail their lives later on if they had. decided they weren't going to lie. right they would have found all. everything else they they did to screw. up their success impossible.

so when I decided and this is this is in. the book. this is a course I took it at Stanford. it was a a seminar with This brilliant. Professor Ron Howard who who many people. who I think some people in Silicon. Valley have taking this course as well. um. I mean this this course was just like a. machine you know undergraduates and. graduate students would come in on one. side and then 12 weeks later would come. out convinced that basically lying was.

no longer on the menu right it's just. it's just it was it that the whole. seminar was an analysis of the question. is it ever. right to lie and really we focused on on. white lies I'm truly tempting lies as. opposed to. the obvious lies it's grow people's. lives and relationships. um. it's just so corrosive and it's. corrosive of relationships in ways. that. you. unless you're a student of this kind of.

thing you you don't necessarily notice I. mean one example I believe is in that. that's in that book is that. I remember my wife was with a friend. uh and the two of them were out and the. the friend had something she she had to. do with another friend later that night. but she didn't really feel like doing it. um. and she got a call from that friend in. the presence of my wife and she just. lied to the friends to get out of the. plan right she said oh you know I'm so.

sorry but my you know my daughters got. this thing and. it was just just an utterly facile. use of dishonesty. to get where she could have she could. have just been honest right but she just. it was just too awkward to be honest so. she just got out of it with a lie but. now it's in the presence of my wife and. my wife is now the the immediate. question is. how many times have I been on the other. side of that conversation right how many. times has she lied to me in an equally.

compelling way about something so. trivial right and so it just eroded. trust in the in that relationship in a. way that the the liar would never have. known about would never have detected it. because it's just she just went right. back to having a good time with you know. they were just out to lunch and they. continued you know having their lunch. and they're still having a good time and. it's all smiles but my wife has just. logged something about kind of the. ethical limitations of this person. um and the person doesn't know it right. and so.

once you sort of pull on this thread you. basically your entire life becomes for. at least for the the the transition. period when until this just becomes a a. habit you no longer have to consider. um. Suddenly It's your your. the world becomes kind of mirror thrown. up to your mind and you and your you. meet yourself in all these situations. where you are avoiding yourself before. so like someone will say.

you know. do you want to have plans or do you. wanna do you want to collaborate with me. on this project and if previously you. you always had recourse to some kind of. white lie that just got you out of you. know the awkward. uh truth which is the answer is no and. they're actually reasons why not right. um. you never had it you never have to. confront the the awkwardness of that. you're this kind of person who has these.

kinds of commitments and this kind of. it's like. I you know. I mean the most awkward one would be you. know someone declares a romantic. interest in you and the the the the the. the the the answer is no and then the. and the. the it's known for totally superficial. reason right like this person is is. either you're not they're not attractive. enough for you right you know they're or. they're overweight or whatever I mean. it's just it's like you have your reason. why not and this is something you feel.

you cannot say right now I'm not saying. that. you should always go out of your way. like like you're someone with Tourette's. who just helplessly blurts out the truth. like there's there's a scope for for. kindness and compassion and tact. but. if someone is going to really drill down. on the reasons why not if the person. says no I want to know exactly why you. don't want to go out with me. there's something to discover on on on.

either side of that true disclosure. right like either you are cast back on. yourself and you have to realize okay. I'm such a superficial person that it. doesn't matter who anyone is. if they're 10 pounds overweight I'm not. interested right that's that's the. mirror held up to your minds like okay. all right so you're that kind of person. do you want to still be that kind of. person do you really want to just decide. that. everyone no matter what their virtues.

right and no matter what has been going. you know what no matter what chaos is. going on in their life and they actually. this person might actually lose those 10. pounds next month and you would have a. very different situation but. are you really not available are you. really filtering by weight in this way. um. and are you really comfortable with that. and are you comfortable. saying that like if you if if somebody. forces you to actually be honest we have. a closing tradition on this podcast.

where the last guest leaves a question. for the next guest not knowing who. they're going to leave it for the. question that's been left for you. impeccable handwriting. where do you want to be when you die. describe the place time. people smell. and feeling. well it's actually. uh connects with an idea I I've I've had. I mean I think what we need we haven't. talked about psychedelics here.

but um there's there's been this. Renaissance in research and psychedelics. and it's hard to know I I I'm worried. that we could recapitulate some of the. the errors of the 60s and and uh. roll this all out in a way that's less. than wise but. the wise version would be I think we. need to recapitulate something like the. the mysteries of ellusis where we you. know we have rise of Passage that are. enabled by.

in many people's case psychedelics and. and the practice of of meditation I just. think it's I think these are. just fundamental tools of insight that. are that. I mean for most people it's hard to see. how they would get them any other way. right I just think you know there's a. lot longer conversation about which. molecule and how and all that but. another component of this is a math a a. hospice situation where. the experience of dying is as.

wisely. embraced and facilitated as is possible. and I think psychedelics could certainly. play a role for for many people there so. I imagine something like we we need a we. need places that are truly beautiful. that where you know people have gone to. die and their families can be you visit. them there and it is just a you know a. final rite of passage that is that is. embraced with you know.

um. all the wisdom uh we can muster there. and. yeah so for in my case you know I would. want to be in you know currently I I'd. be happy to be home but you know. wherever a home is at that point I would. want a um. I would want a view of the the sky you. know it could be an ocean beneath the. sky that would be ideal right. um I just I mean it. there's there's basically nothing that.

makes me happier than just looking at a. blue sky with just watching like cumulus. clouds move across a a blue sky I mean. it's just like. I can extract so much mental pleasure. just looking at that right it's just I. mean it's. um so yeah if I'm gonna spend my last uh. hours of life looking at anything if my. eyes are going to be open you know. looking at the sky and having the Stars. will the sky the daytime the daytime.

yeah yeah I mean if I were if I light. pollution. is enough of a thing in my world that I. go for I feel like I go for years. without seeing a good nice guy. um so I've kind of given up hope there. but I do love that. um. but yeah just a you know a view of the. sky and with the people I love at that. point who are who are still alive at. that point. yeah I mean I'm not I'm not worried. about. death in that sense I mean I really.

I think it's. it. the Death part is not a problem I mean I. I can't say I'm looking for if I can. imagine there could be sort of medical. chaos and uncertainty and all of the you. know the weirdness that happens around. the dying process right depending on. um. and there are all kinds of ways to die. that I wouldn't choose but having a nice. place to do that. with a view of the sky would be the the.

only solution I think I would require. the question asks the smell. give me the smell smell give me an ocean. breeze I have put an ocean there so yeah. an ocean breeze would be perfect. Sam thank you so much thank you. um not just this conversation as I said. to you before you sat down you were. pivotal in. um really helping me to unpack some. problems when I was younger some. conflicts I should describe them as with. my my view on religious belief and.

um and the nature of the world but I. think more more importantly you didn't. you didn't robber me of my religious. beliefs and leave me with nothing right. you left me with something else which is. something that was really important to. me which was the idea that there can. still be great meaning and there can be. what you describe as spirituality. in the absence or in the place of. um that religious belief religious. belief gives people you know a lot of. things and I I it's funny because when I. was religious and I went on the journey. to becoming agnostic let's say. um I was in conflict with people as in I.

would want to have a debate with. everybody yeah and I spent those two. years watching everything that you and. Richard Dawkins and Hitchens had all. done. and then I came out the other side and. it was peaceful yeah and it's you. believe what you want I'll believe what. I want um as long as we're not causing. any conflicts with each other and you're. not doing any harm it's okay yeah and. then I discovered what I would call my. own spirituality which is my meaning the. meaning that I see in the world around. me and um and the self and things like. psychedelics. and it's a it's a better place to be and.

it removes my fear of death which I had. as a religious person all right well. that's good so thank you yeah thank you. for that and all your subsequent work. but you know incredible books you've. written so many of them that are. absolutely incredible you've got an. unbelievable podcast which I was gorging. on before you came here as well in an. app. um which I mean if you could speak just. a few sentences about the meaning of the. app and what you do I know it's much. more than meditation now but I think. people listening to this might be. compelled to to check it out and. download it yeah so I had that book.

which you're holding waking up which is. the um. uh which is where I talk about my. experience in meditation and just how I. fit it into a a. scientific secular worldview. um. and just it just turns out that an app. is a much better delivery system for. that kind of information I mean it's. just a hearing audio is you don't even. need you don't need video I think audio. is the perfect. medium for it so when that technology. came about or when I discovered it. um I just felt incredibly lucky to be.

able to to build it and so it's it's. kind of outgrown me now there are many. many teachers on it and many other. topics Beyond meditation that are. touched but. um it's a. it really subverts all of the problems. that you know some of which we touched. upon here with the with the smartphone I. mean like the smartphone has become this. this tool of fragmentation for us it. fragments our attention it continually. interrupts our experience it's depending.

on how you use it. um but most of what we do with it you. know you're checking slack you're. checking your email you're checking your. social media you're you're just it's. punctuating your life with with all this. stuff is you know at this point. seemingly necessary interruptions. but this app or you know any really any. app will like it that's delivering this. kind of content. subverts all that because it's just this. is this is it's just a platform where. you're getting audio that is guiding you. in a specific very specific use of.

attention and a sort of reordering of. your priorities and getting you to to. recognize things about your experience. that you you wouldn't otherwise see and. yeah an app is it just a sheer good luck. it turns out it's it's just the perfect. delivery system for that information so. yeah I just feel very lucky to to have. stumbled upon it because again you know. 10 years ago there were no apps and you. know there's just it was just all I.

could do was write a book. Sam thank you yeah thank you thank you. so much yeah a pleasure to meet you. congratulations with everything it's. really it's oh thank you I was catching. up on your podcast in anticipation of. this and it's amazing the the reach. you've got now so yeah wonderful no it's. we're still trying to catch up with it. but it's a credit to all of the team and. I really want to say from the bottom out. thank you because the work you do is is. really really important. um it's been important in my life as. I've said but it's just really important. and we I feel like we're living in a.

world where like nuance and all the. things you've talked about and openness. to debate and honest dialogue us we're. getting further further away from there. so if there's anyone left in this world. that's still willing to engage on that. level I feel like they must be protected. at all costs and I see you as one of. those people so thank you nice nice well. to be continued. [Music]. oh. [Music].