Uber CEO: I Have To Be Honest, AI Will Replace 9.4 Million Jobs At Uber! - Dara Khosrowshahi

You come to Uber, you're going to work. your ass off, and if you're not. performing, we're going to let you know. But do you ever worry that they might. not be able to deal with the truth? Then. they can leave. Because the most. important skill in life is [music] the. skill of working hard. And when you see. the top athletes, Ronaldo, Michael. Jordan, of course they're talented, but. [music] the thing that's different about. them is they work their asses off. And. that's a learned skill. That's not. something you're born with. You may be. smarter, more talented, etc., but I'm. not going to let anyone outwork [music]. me. With that mentality, when you joined.

Uber, it was 3 billion per year. Now it. generates 8.5 billion in free cash flow. every year. But it seems that you were. forged in such a way that you were going. to be relentless. Yeah. And it really. started with being born in Iran. With. the Islamic Revolution in 1978, we were. [music] not safe there. And I remember. at one point we had these revolutionary. guards come into the backyard, and. bullets went through our living room. So. my family came to the US to rebuild. [music]. their lives. You were 8, 9 years old? >> Yeah. And it really destroyed my dad.

Sorry. Me. It's tough for me to talk about it. It's okay. All right, let me try again. Seeing that. has put me on a road where I just wanted. to make my family proud. So I studied. bioelectrical engineering, and then my. first job was in lesson banking, and I. got to see the process of big companies. [music] being built. And then I had the. opportunity to take over Expedia. And in. your 12 years as CEO, Expedia sales. increased [music] from 2.1 billion to.

8.8 billion, and you were the highest. paid CEO of a US tech company. And I. left it all behind to go to Uber. And I. want to get into practical [music]. company building, how you would get that. company to work hard, and create a. culture of continuous improvement, [music] and all that stuff. But there's. lately that's arrived amongst us, which. is AI. Now driving, I think is one of. the biggest employers in the world, like. as a profession. [music] I mean, we've. got 9 and a half million drivers and. couriers on our platform. Those drivers. and couriers that you have will be out. of work. Being honest about the. situation, what do the 9 million people. do?

Guys, I've got a quick favor to ask you. We're approaching a significant. subscriber milestone on this show, and. roughly 69% of you that listen and love. this show haven't yet subscribed for. whatever reason. If there was ever a. time for you to do us a favor, if we've. ever done anything for you, giving you. value in any way, it is simply hitting. that subscribe button. And it means so. much to myself, but also to my team, cuz. when we hit these milestones, we go away. as a team and celebrate. And it's the. thing, the simple, free, easy thing you. can do to help make this show a little.

bit better every single week. So, that's. the favor I would ask you. And um if you. do hit the subscribe button, I won't let. you down, and we'll continue to find. small ways to make this whole production. better. Thank you so much for being part. of this journey. Means the world, and uh. yeah, let's do this. >> [music and singing]. >> Dara, you lead one of the most. consequential, interesting, talked about. companies of my generation. It's worth hundreds of billions of.

dollars last time I checked. And it's uh. it's a company that I use every single. day. Thank you. I've looked through your. story. You were the CEO of Expedia Mhm. at one point. >> Yes. You're currently the CEO of Uber, and. you've turned that company from a. a loss-making company to a highly. profitable company, and one that has. continued to. be successful through such a great time. of transition. I. Your story starts in a very interesting. way. >> Mhm. And I was, you know, when I start doing. the research for guests sometimes, I I I.

think I come in with some kind of. presumption that you like grew up in. California, you went to Stanford, etc. But that is not the case. Can you take. me to that earliest context so I can. understand. how and why you are the way that you. are? >> [laughter]. >> Uh quite the quite the starting. questions, but but but I'll try. I I. think that for me. the. events that shaped my life and maybe a. part of who I am really started with. my being born in Iran.

And Iran at the time was modernizing, becoming a modern society. And my family built. a pretty big industrial company that. that everyone was quite proud of in. Iran. We lost all of that. with the revolution in 1978. And my family had to come to the US. to rebuild their lives. You had to come. to the US. We were not safe there. One.

of my uncles actually was a cabinet. member of the Shah's who had just been. toppled. And at one point we had uh. uh these revolutionary guards come into. the backyard. They were actually going. after our neighbor's house. Uh and one. of their guns went off and bullets went. through our living room. Uh shattered the glass in the living. room and at that point my mom's like, "We're not safe being here." So we had. to. come to the US.

And I do think that event to some extent. has shaped not just me but my family. in that the rebuilding. of our lives, um of our uh economic lives to some. extent where we're all trying to rebuild. what we lost in Iran. Do you look back. on that and and can you identify any. sort of fingerprints that were left on. you from that time that have defined you. in a business capacity? I think at my core I never feel safe. You know, when the the experience of.

losing everything and and for the kids, I I tell you, it was fine for the kids. But seeing my parents lose everything. and and it really destroyed my dad. You. know, it really. his losing his value to the world as he. saw it, um, really hurt. his inner being. And I do think to some extent seeing. that. has put me on a road where I want to. rebuild, I want to make my family proud,

but at the same time. I never that feeling of having the. floor, you know, the rug pulled out of. you at building everything, that's a. feeling that never leaves you. I think I. think Americans. underestimate. what this place represents. in its ideals, right? Which is if you. build something it's yours, there's a. rule of law, can't be taken away from. you. That is not true for the majority. of the population of the world. And so I think for me there's a drive to.

build. and it's at the same time never ever. ever taking anything for granted, never. being satisfied. because the minute you take these for. granted then that rug can be pulled out. from under you. On your father, there was a a moment a. couple of years, I think six years, where he got trapped in Iran and wasn't. granted an exit visa. Yes. And I imagine at that time your mother. was raising you alone here in New York. City. Yeah, [clears throat] in. Tarrytown, New York, 45 minutes north of. New York City.

But she she went from. a life of never having to work to she. had to become a sales person to make. some money. and she did it all herself and she. really stepped up. So I think it shaped. us. It was difficult in some ways. I I. miss my dad. I remember when he left, he. was like a giant compared to me and then. when he came back it was my sophomore. year at college. and he still saw me as a kid. And so he. wanted to drive me to, uh, to college. and and he did and then he's like, "You.

want to hang out?" I'm like, "Dad, can. you get out of here? I want to hang out. with my kids." I was with my friends. I. was excited to go back to school. and it was just it it was sad seeing the. change, you know, of a man who had. gotten older. His time in Iran was really tough on. him. He had a heart attack on the plane. coming back. So, he was a diminished. person to some extent. Um but. it was great that I had many, many years. with him, you know, since then. When he was away, when he was trapped in.

Iran and wasn't able to exit, your mother Lilly Yes. referenced how you didn't mention him. much. But when he returned, you broke down in. tears. It's okay. Yeah, no, don't be. He was a. very stoic man.

It's okay. Sorry. Passed away a couple of years ago, so. it's tough for me to talk about it. It's okay. All right, let me try again. He was a. very stoic man.

Um so, he. kept it. all inside. And we were taught to do the same thing. Uh but we wrote letters together. They're beautiful letters. He wrote. poetry. So, I communicated with him in. Iran. But. there's. um. expression of feelings and kind of. uh frustration. uh. were not something that my family did. You know, you just dealt with the. situation. And so, yeah, I I think I.

suffer from uh over stoicism and then. breaking down every once in a while, as. you just saw. It's a. a familiar story of the the men that. I've interviewed that grew up with. that kind of sort of emotional composure. enforced and um modeled to them. Yeah, I. don't know if it was enforced. Like it. wasn't Implicitly. >> Actually, yeah. Like we were very loving. family. But my father was very humble. Um he did not believe that just because.

you're in a position of power, you. should kind of project that power. You. should communicate that to everyone. And there was a stoicism inside my. family, which is don't complain. You. know, um. So they it was it was a weird. combination of stoicism and love at the. same time. How does um cuz I'm not a father yet. Yes. But I I'm approaching. Congratulations. Almost. Yeah, almost. Yeah. I've just proposed to my fiancee. and we're you know, we're in the process. now of. you know, bringing children into the. world, hopefully. And it's one of the.

things I think a lot about, which is how. do I stop my own stoicism [laughter]. passing on to my children? First of all, fatherhood, parenthood is is so. humbling. You have such a picture in your mind as. to how you're going to raise your. family, what your kids are going to be. like. And they just become their own people. And it's such a beautiful process to. see. And at first there's this alarm, oh.

my god, I'm losing control. You know, I've I've done everything, you've. planned everything. This is how I'm. going to raise kids, but then real life. gets in the way. It is absolutely. exhausting. So you probably execute on. 80% of your plan. You're 20% imperfect. cuz you are exhausted and you're. working, you got a career or often some. people do. And at some point you see these kids. kind of move off into this completely. unexpected territory. And there's a. point for me it was like.

I I'm a bit of a control freak, so I'm. like, this is not good. They're kind of. doing their own thing, but then you you. step back and you're like, this is it's. absolutely gorgeous what's happening. So, the advice that I would just give in. terms of being a parent is just spend. the time with the kids. You know, it is. that is the magic is not [clears throat]. what you do um or or the particular. tactics, but it's the investment in them. and the time spent with them and the. rest, you know, you can't control, but. what you can't control is kind of that.

connection. Mhm. I um speaking of. children, I went back and looked through. lots of different photos of where you. lived and where you grew up to try and. get a picture of your world in an early. context. And all these photos look. incredibly incredible I think that's. your fifth birthday. Oh, wow. I had hair back then. >> [laughter]. >> You had a lot of hair. >> My mom loved to dress us up in like. little doll outfits. I can tell. There's. another one of you in Oh, lord. Look at. that. I'm definitely not going to do. that to my kids. Age four in London. Yes.

>> Photo of you. >> Yes. You and your cousins. >> Yes. Little photo. Family was everywhere. for us. And I got another one with a a. beautiful haircut there. >> [laughter]. >> It was a great childhood. It was. amazing. I spoke to your mom. Lilly. >> I hope uh well, how did it go? >> [laughter]. >> We'll see. She said um I'll play the audio file. just so people can hear it. When he was. very little, he told me that he wants to. do something important in the world, and.

he said becoming wealthy is not his. priority, but making a change is. I. can't say I remember that conversation. >> [laughter]. >> But the. one of my early experiences that really. imprinted on me was we went to visit one. of my dad's factories, family factories. My dad was in charge of designing. factories, building them, operating. them. And.

the respect. that that population, the factory, had. for him and the visit and how excited. they were that his family was visiting. was just really cool. And and the way. that he treated he knew everyone's name. He treated them with such respect. It. just it really imprinted on me. There. was this care. It wasn't the boss is. coming and there's fear. And so for me like that. ability to build a life where you have.

impact on a lot of people, but it's it's. positive kind of building impact. You. have the. broad respect of of these folks. It. really imprinted on me. So I I always. wanted. you know, when we came to the States. making money was important. I don't want. to kind of BS and say like oh, I didn't. care about it because we lost. everything. And so my first job was like investment. banking. What do Go to investment. banking, have fun, but. make money, right? And so that was a.

priority for me. But then as I matured. in life, as I knew. I had safety in terms of okay, yes, I. know I can do that. I can make money. I. can provide for my family. I can support. my mom and dad. Then. building kind of an enterprise, having. that feeling that I saw with my father, that connection with his team. uh was something that became really. important to me. When you came to New York, you were. what? 8, 9 years old? >> 9 years old, yes. If I'd asked you at 9. years old when you arrived in New York,

what you wanted to do when you're older, what would you have said? I have no idea. I want to make my dad. proud. That was it. I wasn't kind of motivated. for a specific target at all. I just. wanted to make my family proud. Why I want to make my dad proud? He's always been an important figure in. uh in my life. You know, that there's. this. um. And and I think part of it is that I. never got to know him that well.

as an individual, you know, cuz he was. obviously. when I was younger, he was working all. the time. So, he would show up once in a. while for dinner, etc. We always had. family dinners together. And then he went away. And then I worked. So, I never really. got to know the person that he was. But, I don't know. There There's kind of. this sense of duty. There's There's a. hope that. you know, he's he's somewhere or maybe. he's not some place. But, that making my. father proud has always been a strong.

current undercurrent in my life. So, you're 9 years old. You've arrived. in New York City. Um you do end up going. off to college sometime later. Yes. I. went to Brown University, studied. engineering there. How did you think. about that choice at that time and how. determinant that was of your trajectory. in your life? That decision to go to. that university and study that subject. My father always said, you can do. anything in your life as long as either. you're a doctor or an engineer. And I picked engineering. I just loved. the problem-solving aspect of.

engineering and all the layers of. equations, etc. And those equations. being able to represent something in. real life and then magically that. something in real life following what it. should theoretically. Like, the. problem-solving aspect of engineering. fascinated me. I absolutely loved it. Uh and I think it serves me to this day. Engineers make good CEOs. Great CEOs. If you step back, companies are just machines, right? They're They're machines that are run by.

people. And over a period of time, you actually. try to automate some of the stuff that. the people do. And then you send the. people off to do new stuff that can't be. automated. Like, we are rules-based. Like, it's it's an organism and it's a. machine at the same time. And to some. extent the job of that the CEO is. engineering. How do I set up the company. to achieve the goals that, you know, I. set for our shareholders set for my. board sets sets for. It's a giant.

engineering problem. And And to me. that's like fascinating. The putting. together the pieces to get to. what you perceive to be the goal. And. one of the really important things is. you got to pick the right goals. Mhm. Um. that is one giant problem-solving. engineering challenge and it's one of. the most fascinating parts of my job. I. want to get into that. The the practical. company building, how you organize an. organization to be a well-functioning. machine, setting goals and all that. stuff. After after college you go into.

investment banking for a period of time. Yeah, I worked there for 8 years in risk. arbitrage to begin with and then mergers. and acquisition advisory work as well. And that experience I I was reading. taught you about betting on people. Yes. >> What do you mean by betting on people? And why is that important? It was a It. was actually a lesson that I learned. from Herbert Allen who was running Allen. & Company at the time. It It was the the. the Allen's family started the company. And he always told me and and at the.

time I didn't really listen to him. He. always said, "Dara, always bet on people. Companies go There. are good companies, bad companies, but. great people stay great all the time.". And one of the things that made Allen &. Company was really special, you know, investment banking can be a dog-eat-dog. sport. But Allen & Company really cultivated. relationships with people whom they. perceived to be great both in terms of.

potential and in terms of character. And. of all the investment banks, that. loyalty, that making a bet on a person. and then staying with them through their. whole careers. is a pattern of how that place works. Uh and it's definitely something that. that I learned there. What is it about. one's character that makes them qualify. as a great person? Uh you look for. success. Honor, loyalty, people who will tell you. what they're going to do, whether it's. good or bad, and then follow through on. their promises.

Hard work I'm surprised that wasn't. mentioned as Well, that comes with. success, right? Talent and hard work. You put it those two together. And why. did you leave Allen & Company? I left Allen because I met Barry Diller. Uh he was a client of mine. We got to. meet in uh. big kind of. deal uh unfriendly uh hostile tender. offer for Paramount at the time. It's. that there's another one happening, I. guess, for Paramount uh now as we speak. And he was the one person I thought I.

was going to be Allen & Company. I. thought I was going to be there forever. My older brother, Kaveh, is in Allen &. Company. He has It's the only job he's. had in his life. But Barry was the one person who I. thought, you know, if I get a chance to. work for this person, I'm I'm I'm going. to jump at it, and I did. Why? Why Barry? He He's spectacular. I mean, he was. spectacular. He is spectacular. A doer, you know, he he I I met him in a. circumstance where he lost. It was It. was this giant hostile tender offer.

Bids going back and forth between. uh the the winner, Viacom, and and. Barry. Ultimately, Barry stepped away. And we were planning uh an announcement. You know, and and you can imagine all. these like fancy PR people. sitting around a table. How do we. present a loss as a win, right? >> So, he bid for a company, he didn't get. it. >> He didn't get it, and and he walked. away. He didn't get it cuz he walked. away, which in hindsight was a was a. mistake. He could have paid more.

Uh and then in the release where he. walked away, uh I think the release was. they won, we lost, next. And he was a. constant motion machine. Like, they won, we lost, next. What's next? Let's go. And that's the kind of person I wanted. to work for. In business, losing is part of the game. >> Absolutely. Absolutely. But But then. calling it out. You know, not. bullshitting. Not like, oh, we tried our best in the. circumstances. They won, we lost, next.

It's okay. Does it matter how you lose? Absolutely it does. They absolutely it. does. It It's And And I find companies. guilty of two things. Like, one is. ignoring losses. Like, papering over. losses, et cetera, right? And then. sometimes. being obsessive about the loss. You. know, inspecting it, what happened, let's do a summary, let's meet, what. went wrong, et cetera. And And you know, for me, it's somewhere in the middle,

which is recognize why you lost, recognize that you lost, say it cuz it's. important to say it, analyze it, but then move on. Like, let's move on. And the next time. you hope to. have learned some kind of judgment to. avoid that kind of a loss, but it. doesn't mean you're going to avoid. losing at all. Like, if you're not. taking shots, you're not missing, you're. you're not losing. So, for me, it's. constantly moving and taking your shots, losing, learning, next, losing,

learning, next. That constant motion is. what I want to see. Um that constant. motion and learning is what excites me. This is business advice, but also life. advice generally, because a lot of. people um who I meet will come up to me. and ask me questions about things often. ask questions that sounded a lot like. what you just said. It's dealing with. rejection, dealing with taking an L, and. how that L then stays with them, sometimes for a decade, sometimes for 15. years, and and holds them back. Hurts. their confidence, means that they don't.

take it any more shots. And this can cause a sort of a downward. confidence. spiral. >> Totally. And and listen, I'm I'm talking. a big game, but I will tell you in my. personal life, I can't deal with the. rejection. I have a really hard time. dealing with the rejection. Professional. life, no problem whatsoever. So, it's. like in the end we're all humans after. all. You have a a difficulty dealing. with rejection in your personal Very. much. Yeah, yeah. >> of rejection? Any kind of rejection, conflict, like. it's it's something that has been uh. that I fought my whole life, which is.

because I was one of the younger. cousins, because I was the youngest. brother, I just kind of didn't have. rights. So, I was I went with the flow. And going with the flow means you're. going with the current, etc. I didn't. cause trouble. And that has followed me in my personal. life. In my professional life, I don't. have as much trouble there. I guess my. professional life to some extent is a. mask because I get to be aggressive. I.

get to lose, etc. It's something that. Sid, my wife, has really helped me with, but it is something in my personal life. that generally I'm conflict avoidant. You're conflict avoidant in your. personal life. Interesting. >> yeah, definitely. Hmm, that's not. [clears throat] good in a relationship. No, no. That's why that's why Sid's. helping me out. I'm much better now. I'm. much better, but it's. it's when I. take those issues on, I have to fight myself. There's some core, you know, if if you.

and I were having an issue, Yeah. and I. was sitting down with you and saying, "Hey, I'm not I'm not happy about X or. Y.". I can feel there's a core in me saying, "Just let it go.". But that's how resentment. builds, and that's how relationships. um over a long period of time start. moving the wrong way. So, it is. something that is at my core, but I. actively fight. Uh and I'm getting. better at it, but I'm still on the. learning journey there, I'll tell you. that. Eventually, you go on to becoming. the CEO of Expedia. Yes. >> After um I mean, there was a couple of.

CEOs that came before you, but you you. became the third and. took that company on. Very different job. going from investment banking to being a. CEO. Yeah. Yeah, now there was a journey. there because I went from banking to. running deals, and I knew that I knew. that I I liked how companies worked. The. thing that I liked about investment. banking was that I got to see a lot. There I got to see really smart people, really cool companies built.

But, I couldn't go along with that journey. I. was jealous of the journey that these. CEOs were were moving on. So, then when. M&A was a bridge to work at a company. and build uh the company, I moved from. M&A to CFO, chief financial officer, because that's uh that's that's to some. extent finance, but it's also. being the CEO's partner and helping the. CEO build. So, I I always knew the. direction that I want to go in, which. is, "Hey, at some point I want to. actually be an operator." And then I had.

the opportunity to take over Expedia. The CEO of the time, Eric Blachford, kind of said, "Yeah, big company thing. not for me.". So, he resigned. And. honestly, uh Barry didn't have an. alternative. Barry was the owner Uh. Barry was the CEO and chairman of IAC, which was a parent company of what. became Expedia, IAC Travel. The head of. IAC Travel resigned. I raised my hand. and said, "Maybe I could do it.". Barry was desperate. He had no one else.

So, he promoted me to be CEO of IAC. Travel, and IAC Travel was going through. some difficult times, so we spun it off. as at at Expedia. So, that's when I. became the CEO of Expedia, the public. company, and I moved to the Netherlands. of of Seattle. And your job just before. you took on that role as CEO, you were. buying businesses. So, M&A is mergers. and acquisitions. You were buying. companies. >> Yes. What are some of the companies that. you bought? Oh, we bought a lot of. companies. We bought Ticketmaster.

We bought match.com. We bought Expedia, hotels.com. And And. it was all about the theme that Barry. and I were. fascinated with was the movement of. commerce online. You know, it was It was. during that time. It was that late late. '90s, early 2000. And And we saw it happening with our. very own eyes, really, with home. shopping, right? It was It's a flat. screen. It was a television. And you. were offering products. And people were.

calling up, buying those products. electronically. And just the medium changed. The medium. changed from a TV screen to an internet. screen. And instead of calling, you. could use a HTTP. And so, while the. medium changed, we kind of saw this. opportunity to take advantage of the of. the change of platform. So, match.com. essentially in the olden days, you know, you had online dating, but you would. call a number. You'd be like, "My name. is Dara, and I'm 6'2". And this is You'd.

describe yourself. And you'd hear other. kind of. recordings. And you would get matched up. based on someone who seemed nice. And. all of that just moved online. That was. what match.com was. Same thing with. Ticketmaster. You know, in the olden. days, you would go to a Tower Records. Have you ever been to a Tower Records? >> Yeah. So, there were these things called. record stores. And they also had a desk where they. would sell concert tickets. So, you. would either call for a concert ticket, or you would physically go and buy one.

Amazing. And there were lines, Tower. Record lines. >> And all of that, exactly, moved online. And same thing with travel, right? You. would call a travel agent. And so, all. of There was this movement of retail and. phone commerce to online commerce. and we identified the early players to. make that shift and personals, ticketing, travel were the ones that we. went with went for because at at the. time Amazon was doing everything else.

like physical fulfillment. So, what we. were going for were essentially. electronic transactions that did not. require physical fulfillment. And that was travel because, you know, it's a virtual good. Ticketing, uh. match.com which which was personal. So, there was a pattern around madness, so. to speak. But we went out and bought all. these companies. It was a really great. time. I've got two questions that emerge. there. One one is. again, I'm really interested to. understand how you would look for talent. or how what.

how you'd think about what a great. company is. Are they like we we looking. at the company culture? Are we looking. at the founders? Was there something. else? Was it the profitability? And the. other one is just really intrigued as to. what this period of your life and. thereafter taught you about how to spot. opportunities in transition. Cuz that is. a transitional moment of technology. And. I think there is a certain pattern. recognition one can develop as to like. know what to bet on in these moments of. transition where there's huge. skepticism. The internet's going to not. going to be anything. It's a So, two. questions. One is like how do you spot.

great companies? And then the second is. like patterns in transition. So, they're. I'd say they're they're related which is. um we would spot great companies. just by observing who is taking the lead. in these transitions. You know, these. transitions are difficult. You can't. predict exactly. where things are going, how quickly. they're going, how much should you. invest, what's the return, what uh what. the what the market how large is the. market going to be. But. there were companies that were emerging. as the leaders and we would just I just.

identify the leaders and cold call these. folks up and say, "I want to come in and. talk to you." Like that was that was it. And to some extent it's a. self-reinforcing cycle which is yes, the. great management teams and the great. founders were the ones who were able to. identify the opportunity and hit that. opportunity faster than anyone else, recognize that opportunity, and execute. on that opportunity faster than anyone. else. So, to some extent, the companies. who were in the lead.

of course had the best management teams. and had the best founding teams. And. when those two things matched, that was. when we jumped. And then the the last. thing I would tell you in terms of these. pattern recognition is that. we never completed a successful deal. because we got the company cheap. We. actually overpaid for every single great. company that we bought, but we overpaid. based on what the market thought at the. time, not what the reality turned out to.

be. So, I do think one of the kind of. pieces of pattern recognition with me is. just. humans. think about success and transitions in a. linear way because time is linear. So, would you put that for someone that. doesn't just they think of it going like. this? >> Yeah, you know, it's it's the everything. kind of moves this way, right? Your your. schedule is relatively linear, right? It's you sleep 7 hours a day. Like your. life is a linear life.

But. company and company success and company. momentum, especially with new. technologies where if there's a. technology that's truly better than the. other technology, within the virtual. world there's absolutely no friction. holding it back. The the these companies. move in an exponential way in terms of. their growth and ultimately in terms of. their value. So, whereas most people. kind of see things they they when they. project that to the to the future, they. see this, what actually happens is this.

And that's where the opportunity is. It's the it's the spread between the. hockey stick and kind of straight line. Mhm. Uh and it's very difficult for. people to process that. And so that was, you know, those were the companies that we. identified that hockey stick and online. travel was a hockey stick, personals was. a hockey stick, ticketing was a hockey. stick. I heard about the Is it Jevons paradox? Yes. Which I think kind of sort of. overlaps with what you're saying there. When things become easier, faster,

cheaper, people do them not. incrementally more, but ex- like. exceptionally more often. I mean that. that's the definition of Uber and we can. get to that at some point. Was uh. originally it was built as a black cab. service, so to speak, a black car. service. >> me that that where it came from? Cuz a. lot of people history is now moved. forward and people have forgotten the. story of how it came to be. >> Now, to some extent it was it well, to a. large extent it was that the founding. was was before me, but it was um. Garrett Camp who was one of the founders.

had this idea. uh and I think it was born in Paris. It. was like a snowy day in Paris and they. couldn't find a black car and it was a. bunch of young young tech guys and like, "How cool would it be to like pick up my. phone and call a black car?" And that. was the the core idea, which is hey, you. can use your phone to call a black car. He brought on uh Travis Kalanick. Travis. was the operator and and the founder. And. to to your point on Jevons paradox to. some extent, people thought, "Well,

what's the size of the black car market. place?" And it was a couple billion. dollars. Or what's the size of the taxi. industry? And it was. uh. more than a couple billion dollars. But. what they didn't see at the time was. that as you. improve the if you radically make. something either more convenient or. cheaper the market. expands beyond how you calculate it. So. the Uber size and scale now is way. beyond the original marketplace of black.

cars and or taxis. It it's the company. The company today is a result of Jevons. paradox. Timing. We often um we often don't think much. about the luck of timing. Uh luck is an. interesting word to use, but how. important timing is and other sort of. foundational factors are in enabling a. company like Uber to exist. When you think about the timing of Uber, what are the sort of the foundations. that made it possible? Well, it was it. was a mobile revolution. It was um. mobile data technology, the iPhone.

coming together. In the early days, one. of the geniuses of Trav- of Travis was. he would hire these market managers who. would be GMs of new cities that they. would expand into. And they would literally go to the city. with a back full of iPhones. and give away iPhones to black car. drivers to get them to come on Uber. because at the time a lot of them didn't. have, you know, they they didn't have. smartphones, so to speak. So, the onset. of the of the smart- smartphone was that.

kind of that beautiful magic of timing. coming together and then aggressiveness. of that founding team to understand that. there's a pattern here and I'm going to. replicate that pattern all the world and. raise as much capital as I have to to. get there faster than anyone else. That. was the magic, but it was, you know, again, it's. yes, there's luck in there, but if that. founding team hadn't been as aggressive. and, you know, blitz scaling, which is a.

term that folks used uh all around the. world, company wouldn't be what it is. today. You transitioned out of investment. banking into Expedia CFO, then CEO. You. know, there's a stereotype in business that um. investment bankers and CFOs don't. necessarily make the best CEOs because. of. they might. stereotypically over financialize. Over. financialize. Maybe be less risk averse. Maybe be like, you know, those kinds of. things. And when I spoke to Barry, he did say the following. I'll just play.

it for you because it's uh. better coming from him. He was brought. in as the leader. because he had. uh. he had been coming up until then as had. been on the financial side of things. So, he really had not yet had the. experience or opportunity to manage. people. That came in a difficult way to. him. And he mastered it. It didn't take him. all that long. He mastered how to become. a leader and he mastered how to take.

ultimate responsibility for a company. Yeah, it was um. growing up under Barry was was And And. by the way, I I wouldn't be where I am. today without Not him as a mentor cuz. he's not like a mentoring kind of guy, but him as my leader, learning from him. But I say that the experience that. really really shaped me. uh as it relates to Expedia was. I did come in as more of a financial. leader. Our. leadership at expedia.com failed. I. hired a I had to fire the first uh.

person, uh hired a second person, complete disaster. And so, I was 0 for 2 in terms of hiring. for our largest business. This business. was 50% of our profits and I was 0 for 2. in uh in hiring. And so, I went to Barry. and the board and I said, "Well, if I miss hiring the third person to run. the biggest parts of our business, then. you should fire me." Barry quickly. agreed. Yes, of course we will. So, I said, "Obviously, I don't. understand enough about the job to find.

the right person. So, I think I've got to take the job. myself for 6 months to a year to. understand what what is it that the job. entails for me to then go and and find. that person.". And so, for what turned out to be I think it was. 5 or 6 years, I ran both the holding. company Expedia Inc., which is a public. company, and I ran Expedia.com. I was. president of the largest part of the. company. That experience taught me my.

operating chops. That experience. actually taught me how is it that you. operate a company? How is it that you. run something? And that's a very. different skill set from capital. allocation and you know, all the. financial. wizardry that people embark on. That's. important, but the what I discovered was. operating a company, leading a company, organizing it, operating it, setting up. the goals, getting the right team together. That's. the part of the job that I loved.

So, it it it took me a while to get. there. Like, my whole life, my whole. early career was in this financial. sector, which I enjoyed, but I didn't find my true love, which is. operations and running companies and. running a technology company, until way, way later in my career. Uh and I think to some extent now, I've. got both. I've got that financial part. cuz it has to work, but the operations. and the leadership part of the business. is something that that I love and and.

watching Barry take responsibility, take. shots, go against the grain, um as. aggressively as he consistently did, I. think has made me a much better operator. than what the counterfactual would be if. I had another boss. 3 months into that role, the head of HR. told you that you were scaring people. >> [laughter]. >> I'd forgotten about that. I think that was my job, yeah. >> [laughter]. >> What's the context there? You know, the.

context was that. I. First of all, turnarounds in technology. are really hard. Uh we were talking about the momentum. thing where momentum of thought is. positive. In the technology sector, if momentum. turns negative, it is remarkably difficult to turn it. around. You know, Yahoo is. hanging on, but it was the great company, and you. see where it is now. It's brutal when you get it wrong.

And. it always takes longer than you think. And it goes to, you know, what I was. talking about linear versus exponential. Just like the curves up are exponential, curves down are exponential as well. The. first couple of years, look bad, but. they're not that bad. But. you know in your mind that 10 years from. now it's going to be a [ __ ] disaster. So, [clears throat]. what I saw with Expedia was a technology. company. whose technology engine was broken.

Codebase was old, had not been. reinvested in, technology leadership was. coasting. And. that really alarmed me. And one of the. things that I learned from Barry. in terms of leadership is. that when, you know, a bell is rung. When when you when you see something, when you see a pattern, you have to act. You can't wait for a. second. So, in my mind, once I figured. out, "Oh my god, this really is a.

turnaround. This isn't like a company. that I've got to tune. This company, if. I don't move and move hard and fast, is. is going to start on that exponential. decay curve." I had to move quickly. And. at that point in and I am. one of the skills that I learned from. Barry is transparency. It's like. whenever he wanted to understand an. issue, he wanted to go to the source. He didn't want a summary. And it didn't matter where that source. was. Is it a junior analyst or a.

president? He wanted to hear from the. source because what he didn't want to. lose is lose the fidelity of the issue. You know, when there's an issue here, then it goes through the analyst and the. associate and the vice president and an. SVP and whatever by the time it's. summarized for you as the CEO it's just. it's lost everything. And usually their. levels are like. hey do we really want to tell him that? Why don't we phrase it this way etc. So. your whole life as a CEO.

is kind of a. it's a version of the world that your. team wants you to see. If you got a good team. usually it has more to do with reality. than not. But you are subject to your. team and the information flow that that. gets to you. And so Barry always wanted. to go to the source. He would just cut. through levels cut through levels get to. the core of the idea and then once he. did he would move and he would move. fast.

And for me I've kind of I have held on. to that. But I've also turned it the. other way which is. one of the ways in which I can depend on. getting the real [ __ ] from you. is my being honest with you. Right? And and human beings are good. [ __ ] you know kind of kind of kind. of meter so so to speak. And and when. you're the CEO and you're talking to. your staff and you're giving all the you. know the business talk and we're doing.

this but the last quarter we had some. certain challenges and this and that. they see you bullshitting them. And so why the hell should they tell you. the truth? Right? If they're if their. boss isn't telling them the good stuff. why should they give the good stuff back. to the boss? So for me. it it was almost like a self-defense. mechanism that as a boss I'm going to. tell you what's going on. Because that's the only way I can drag. the hard truths back from you. Cuz otherwise you're going to filter.

yourself. You're going to be like I. don't want Darda know. this happened. But you ever worry that. they might not be able to deal with the. truth? Then they can leave. And and I think that that's so I think. that's what my head of HR was saying. I. was scaring the [ __ ] out of people cuz. I'm like, "We have a real problem here. and we've got to come together." And and. I think that. that you know, there's a I was a good. decision-making framework for me is. if I make a mistake, where do I want to. make the mistake on? Right? And so if I want to if I'm going.

to err with my company, I'm going to err. in telling the truth and potentially. scaring someone away. I'll take that. Because if that person doesn't want to. face the truth, if he or she's not up. for the fight, then they should go someplace else. They. can have a good time. I'm sure they can. have a good career, etc. So for me as a. leader, I've always always believed in. transparency, partially cuz then I think. you attract the right people. And [clears throat].

uh partially because then I'm going to. get the good information so to act on. Usually, the failures I see with CEOs. aren't because they made the wrong. decisions. It's because they were. getting the wrong data that led to the. wrong decisions. So it's incredibly. important as a leader of any. organization for you to. build the channels and build the kind of. culture that surfaces problems to you. quickly. And then for me, too, you always have to have your random. direct channels. You know, the the.

Again, if you. think about organizations as organisms, they have their own incentives. And so. my staff's incentive is to control the. the the information that gets to me. Not. because they're bad people, it's just. their job cuz I can get overwhelmed. Who. do I meet with? What's my schedule? You. know, is this person worthy of meeting. the CEO? And for me, my fight is I just set up a. bunch of random [ __ ]. I'll meet with, you know, engineers four. levels down consistently cuz usually.

they've got the kind of personality. where they don't give a [ __ ] They'll. tell me anything and everything and they. like. putting the CEO down. That's great. They. like putting the CEO down. >> It's you know, engineers often, you. know, don't like authority and code is. like the biggest authority buster is. like the truth truth. Uh so I found a lot of engineers have a. personality which is, yeah, I'm going to. tell you what it's like. Like I'm you. know, they they they their value is in. something else. But often they don't.

There's a kind of a disrespect for. authority that I love. I've found in my. companies that there's sometimes like a. 24-year-old. young girl who will just tell me the. truth. >> Yeah. And. she's the one you want to hang out with. She's the one I always go and ask for an. opinion. >> Absolutely. And so that that's you've. got to have your your own channels. But the way to the way to get. transparency from your team is first. first you've got to give it to them. Was. the culture hard working when you. arrived? Cuz you used the word coasting. to describe some of the team when you. arrived at Expedia. Medium. I think the the company had been.

successful for a long time and. had coasted on that success to some. extent. So I needed to turn over the. team. Turned over like the entire team. very very quickly and get some hungry. people in there. The entire team? Almost entire team. Yeah, yeah. It was. uh it was rough going for a while. But. then you have kind of mission oriented. people who are trying to prove. themselves. um and it's part of the renewal that. every company has to go through. And we turned it around. It was it was. tough going, but we really turned it. around and that was when I kind of I.

learned, hey, my my love is running. [ __ ] It's great. It's the best part of. my job. How did you get that company to. work hard? Because there's so many people listening. right now that are in a company that. might have been successful, coasting, might be two decades in. And this is an. ultimate question in like executive. management. How do you turn around the. culture of a big or even even if even. 200 people? It's very difficult um and sometimes the. shortcut is just change the people. Like. it's very easy to say, "Oh, you have. values this and that." So, it's it's.

finding the people who you believe will. line up with your cultural mechanisms or. how you work or your values. And then embodying those values and. those mechanisms as examples and then. making sure that your team embodies. those values and imbues down the down. the organization. So, part of working. hard is like. you know, sending emails to the team on. a Saturday and if I don't get a response. on Saturday, sending them an email on.

Sunday with a question mark. What's going on? You know, I think at Expedia in. hindsight. we we worked intensely and and and we. went hard. But but not as hard as I like because. Expedia was we were selling vacations, right? It was it was the the product. that we were selling was about turning. yourself off. And so, we did talk about work-life. balance. Uh and in hindsight. at Uber, I don't.

You know, you come to Uber, you're going. to work your ass off. We're going to be. really demanding. If you're not. performing. we're going to let you know and if you. don't fix it, we're going to push you. out. But while it will be incredibly hard. you will have real agency at the. company. We're a big company, but. individuals can make a big difference. and it's a company that's making a. difference in the world. You're going to learn so much. And while you will have worked hard,

you're going to have a great time. But this is don't come here if you want. to coast. And I'm very clear about that. And I should have been more clear at. Expedia, but we were selling vacations, so I couldn't be quite that clear. New year always has a strange energy to. it because people start talking about. their goals, fresh starts, new habits. But the reality is that most people. carry the same ideas they had last year. into the new year. I'm guilty of that, too. And they still don't end up doing. anything with them. And I get why. Starting something new, especially if.

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and start selling. And you can sign up. for a $1 per month trial right now, too. Just go to shopify.co.uk/bartlett. I promise you, you don't need to have it. all figured out. You just need to start. In your 12 years as CEO, Expedia's stock. rose 550%. and sales increased 400%. from 2.1 billion to 8.8 billion. And you were the highest-paid CEO of a. US tech company with a pay of 94.1.

million. I left that all behind to go to. Uber. You left it all [laughter] behind? It was a big options package that I. never vested, but it's all good. It was a great one. I'm so I'm so intrigued about this point. of hard work because I think 10 years. ago, saying what you just said was very. taboo. Yes. It feels to me more. >> [laughter]. >> We're freed now. Yes. You're freed now. Yes. Yes, indeed. It's it I've I've. gotten um. you know, sometimes people I see the. question uh what advice would you give.

to young people? And to me, the most important skill in. life is the skill of working hard. And it's not a skill you you can't just. like decide you're going to do it. And I think way too many many people, you know, focus on should be it should. should Should be a computer programmer. or a doctor or study the liberal arts. now that anyone can buy code? Just learn. to work hard. And it is you you know. that that when you see the top athletes, of course they're talented. And.

that you know their talent level is. world levels. But the thing that changes. that that's different about the elite. athletes than the non-elite athletes. And I'm talking elite is they work their. asses off. They're disciplined, they're. structured, they're relentless. You. know, look at Ronaldo, look at Michael. Jordan, etc. That's the same thing is. true in all of life. It's true in. business, it's true in personal life. And so for me with my kids, I just want.

to teach them how to work hard. And And. for me like growing up, I as a banker, as an executive, I'm not going to let anyone outwork me. And if that's true, then they may be. smarter, more talented, etc. But I'm not. going to let anyone outwork me. And I. think that that's a huge advantage that. you have in a over period of time that. advantage compounds. And I want that in. our company. Like I want Uber to be an. incredibly hard working company. Comes. at a cost though, Nate, working hard. Yes. It comes at a trade-off. And And we.

we believe in flexibility. So, people confuse kind of lack of. flexibility to working hard. You can. work hard and at the same time you can. have flexibility. So, if you want to. have dinner with your family and I'm I'm. religious about having dinners with my. family when I'm in town, you know, 6:00. to 8:00, absolutely spend that time with my. family. But at you know, 9:30 p.m. I'm. checking emails. Mhm. >> Right? When I wake up at 5:30 in in a. a.m., I'm checking emails. So, of course. there are trade-offs. And you know, life.

is about trade-offs. I think one of the most important things. I've learned from interviewing CEOs and. generally we've gone through a. transition of COVID and remote work and. then come back in to like everyone's in. the office again is actually the most. important thing is what you've just. said, which is being honest with people. so that they can make decisions for. themselves in their lives. I think the. the thing that one might describe as. toxic is when you say something. publicly, but then when they arrive it's. a completely different deal. But what. you're doing is you're being honest and. you're therefore allowing people to make. decisions for themselves in their own. lives. And I'm allowing them to be.

honest back to me. Yeah. And you're that's a that's a. company culture that someone like me. would be attracted to. >> Absolutely. >> But there's lots of people listening. that couldn't think of anything worse. And that's okay. >> Yes. Yeah. There'll plenty of companies. that they can find of causes that they. can find is fine. You said learn to work. hard. Learn. It's a It's a skill. Really? Yes, of. course it is. Because you. >> You you because you you've got to the. idea of just staying focused on. something, not being discouraged by. failing, trying over and over again, and.

just working harder than others. It's. not something you can turn on and off. I. see it in people all the time. There's. just like this. grim determination. Like we. At Uber there's there's actually a. saying it's it's it's inside one of our. values, embrace the grind. You know, embrace it. That's. that's a learned skill. That's not. something you're born with. Maybe maybe. there's an element that you're born. with. Have you ever seen someone who. isn't a hard worker become a really hard. worker? An exceptionally hard worker? >> Ah, that's a good question.

No no one doesn't occur to me. Have you? >> [laughter]. >> No, I I had a I think it might have been. maybe Brian Chesky at Airbnb or Elon say. that he's never seen someone who wasn't. a hard worker become a really hard. worker. That's interesting. And this is. why I always. >> to come up with someone. >> [laughter]. >> Failing so far. And maybe I might posit that it's. somewhat to do with, you know, these. photos that you have in front of you. Your childhood, your early context, which you didn't choose.

>> hard here. But that I mean you were forged in such. a way that you were going to be. ruthless. So relentless is the word I. meant. >> Yeah, I I mean ruthless to myself. Mhm. Relentless [clears throat] Relentless is. right. You know, I think I think at one. point Jeff Bezos was going to call. Amazon Relentless. That was uh he was thinking about that. being the name of the company. Right? It's It's just And And that is. When I see successful technology. companies, and especially technology. companies, there is this relentlessness. this about them. Like at at Uber,

we have lots of different groups that. are trying to do different things, but each and every team. is built and targeted on optimizing and. improving their own particular function. There isn't a piece of the company that. is not improving every single day. And. if they're not improving fast enough, someone else is going to take their. place and going to improve it. So, as a. as an organism, every part of the company, whether it's. a payments team in terms of new payments.

types or uh payment success or the fraud. team or the mobile app team in terms of. conversions, etc., every team is set up. and and organized for and gold on. improving everything that they do. So, the whole company in small ways is. constantly improving, never ever. stopping, and it is that relentless. nature of business. And And the minute. And it's not good enough to get. better. We have to get better faster than our.

competitors cuz our competitors are all. getting better as well. So, it's it's basically like who can. adapt faster to either the reality of. the market as it is today or the. prediction of the market as you see it. tomorrow. And it's the speed of change and it's. identification of the opportunity. Those. are the two factors. I think that are most important. Um and. the speed of change, you know, if you. can work fast, you're kind of. accelerating time. You know, every. one shot that you take, I can take two.

shots. I've got more time than you do. And then of course there's identifying. the opportunity and going after it. Those are the two things you really have. to get right. If you're taking two. shots, not only you're going to get two. data points of information, but you're. also increasing your probability of. having a successful shot by like 100%. >> Shots on goal. Just shots on goal. How. do you create a culture of continuous. improvement? Because successful. companies as you kind of highlighted. earlier, they become complacent with. their victories and they like to take. some time off and celebrate and you. know, we high-five and then and then we. chill. And then actually the studies.

show they did this big meta-analysis. where they looked at successful. companies and they showed that they. become risk adverse. >> Totally. Because the loss aversion. They. have something to lose now. So just. protect. I think the good news to some. extent with Uber is that we've always. been a company that has had a chip on. its shoulder. You know, the company had a chip on its. shoulder when it was founded and it had. to like fight taxi unions for its very. existence. Uh and then the disaster happened with. Travis leaving and then a new CEO coming.

in. At the time that was a really, really difficult time. Then we went. through a period of COVID which was. again a disaster for the company, but. ultimately prepared us to to do better. Then people saying, you know, it was a. tough IPO. Uh Uber's never going to get profitable. And today we're incredibly successful, but we've got the challenge and the. opportunity of AI and autonomous. So. we've always been a company that has. been, I would say, underestimated. And that feeds into our culture. That.

this is a we are a hungry company and I. do think we're sometimes. guilty of getting complacent in little. ways. And I have a leadership team that when. they see complacency more often than not. than not they identify it and they get. it the hell out. It's it's a team that is. not satisfied. That's always driving. And I love that about us. How does one balance. enjoying. the success and the accomplishments? I.

mean, you've turned this company around, highly profitable company. Everyone that. I've spoken to, many of our mutual. friends, have talked lovingly about the. impact you've had on the business. I. mean, the numbers speak for themselves. When you joined Uber, Uber was losing. 2.5 to 3 billion per year. Now it. generates 8.5 billion in free cash flow. every year. How do you get people to. >> 9.8 in the last year, but just. >> [laughter]. >> You you're counting. 9.8, okay, incredible. Celebrate. Chill. Should Well, You [laughter] could You could celebrate.

in a nutshell. Okay, how. >> You can We take those moments. We do. celebrate. It's It's cool to run a. company that's so important. It's cool. to run a company that's hitting record. after record after record. And we do. celebrate those records, and we do. celebrate those things. Maybe not. enough. And again, it goes to like what. what what mistake would you rather make? I'd make I'd rather make the mistake of. celebrating a little bit too little. and kind of being a little pissed off. about life in general and pushing. But. um we we take our moments. But the the.

the success itself, I don't know, succeeding is almost a celebration in. and of itself. And And when you're. succeeding in such a competitive field, I just find a deep sense of satisfaction. there. Uh and I think my team does, too. How do you get the team to take take. those risks that they need to take? Is. there something you Do you like. incentivize them on the amount of shots. they take? How do you do that? One is. they're always moving fast. That's what. we do. We push. We're constantly pushing. the pace of the company in terms of.

execution. So, I think that helps. But. But I do think that there's there's a. mechanism that we talk now about that. I've talked to the team about taking. smart risks. I think you're absolutely. right, which is as companies get bigger. and more successful, they tend to become. more risk-averse. And it should be the exact opposite. because you can take more risks. You can. make more mistakes because you've got. kind of this 9.8 billion of cash flow to. protect yourself against some of those. mistakes. So, I have definitely in the. past, I would say 2 years, pushed the.

team actively to push the envelope in. terms of risk. Don't be defensive, be. offensive, et cetera, and it comes from. my challenging the teams, my talking. about it, setting examples of sometimes. failing and then saying it's okay, moving on. Uh and then. sometimes my taking decisions that are. seen as more risky than not. That. setting the example then allows the. company to follow. So, if I was in one. of your teams, what. how do you think about goal setting for. me? Um it all the teams have different.

goals, business goals. The ads team has. to drive at technology-driven. incremental ad uh dollars per year and. or customer satisfaction, uh customer. NPS, et cetera. So, every team has its. own goals. Uh and they organize guess those goals. and they execute those goals and they're. religiously tracked. It's the best. mechanism that we have. I just wish that there was a better one. because the art of the goal setting.

becomes the issue. Which is are you. setting the right goals? Are they too. ambitious? Are they non-ambitious. enough? And sometimes people can game. the system. So, we use it, but I can't tell you that it's perfect. What about you talked earlier about. values. A lot of companies go and do an. offsite and they write some words on a. words on a white on a wall and they say. ambition, enthusiasm, courage, whatever. What do you think of that sort of. corporate habit of goal values and. stuff? We went through the exercise.

Failed the first time. Succeeded the second time. We and and when it and we failed when it. first came to Uber, obviously there was. a view that there we needed a cultural. reset of the company. And so, it was very important for me to. go and inspect the culture of the. company and. change it. It was a statement. And the. culture had. I think some cool stuff in there, some. cool ideas in there. Like for for. example, there was one value that was. toe stepping.

And the idea of toe stepping is is what. you and I talked about earlier, which is. we want to challenge each other within. the organization. And so if I have to. step on your toes and tell you something. that you don't want to hear, I'm allowed. to even though it hurts you. uh because the truth is more important. So sometimes the truth hurts and that's. okay. That was the idea of toe stepping. And what happened was sometimes those. values became weaponized. Where toe stepping, whose spirit came.

from a place of we want to speak the. truth. became an excuse to be a jerk. Mhm. >> [clears throat]. >> Right? So the values in and of. themselves can be great or. terrible based on how you execute on. those values. When I first came in, we. had to redo the values. And I was there. there's a saying by um Jeff Bezos that. that I love, which is like. the the values of the company almost. they they they appear. The value system.

of the company appears to some extent. You don't If you say thou shalt, you're. going to fail cuz the company shall. Right? And the approach that we first. took was that we will actually get the. value system we had we had a vote for. all the employees in the company, what. values do you think should be part of. the new Uber, etc. We took all of that. signal and then we edited it and came up. with a new list of of values. And there. was one value. that. I wrote myself. It was mine. And it was.

do the right thing, period. It wasn't crowd sourced. It was just. that. And and usually with these values. you're like there's a whole explanation. and people are like. well, what does do the right thing. {period} mean?" Like, you have to figure. it out. And for me, it it it was a message. to the whole company, which was, "If you work at Uber, you have a. responsibility, and I'm not going to. tell you exactly what to do, so use your. judgment. And it's our expectation that.

you use your judgment to do the right. thing." And sometimes doing the right. thing is not clear. Should I go after my. business goals? Should I. compromise on a business goal because. safety is in question? Of course, you. should. Safety comes first before. business, et cetera. But we were putting. that weight and that responsibility in. within the employees. But the rest of. the value system that was kind of. crowdsourced, it was forgettable. Because it was the kind of stuff that. you passion, ambition, teamwork. Like, what company doesn't believe in. teamwork? Give me a break.

So, we Nikki Krishnamurthy, who runs. people, she pushed me to reset the. values. four or five years in. By then, I felt. like I did have a right to have a point. of view. I'd been there. We weren't. quite done with the turnaround, et. cetera, but I was a part of the company. And then we came up with a value set, which is different. You know, there's. one of our values. By the way, go get it. was the only one that survived.

No, no, sorry. Do the right thing was. the only one that survived. But for. example, go get it is one of our top. values, and the idea of go get it is. obviously it's literally what we do. We. go. We help people go or get it, right? Rides and eats. So, it's kind of fun in. terms of what we do, but it's an. attitude, which is we. as a company, we're go-getters. We're. going to be aggressive. We're going to. push. We're going to move fast. We play. to win. And so, the value sets that we have, go.

get it, or one that I really like, great. minds don't think alike. We came up with a with a set of values, which I think is unusual and describes. how we are different as a company, and. it's really true to who we are. How important is this sort of this. attitude of failure and experimentation, especially in a world that's. transitioning as fast as the one we're. in? When you listen to people like Ray. Kurzweil, his predictions of the future, he says that if you're 10 now, by the. age of 60, you'll experience a year's. change in I think it's 11 days. And just. this sort of this sort of exponential.

acceleration. >> of accelerating returns. >> how do you how do you, you know, how do. you create a culture or build a team in. a world where the correct answer is. changing this quickly? I I think that it is. setting a culture that. does embrace that change and is. constantly challenging itself. And I. will give. uh Travis and the founding team credit, you know, that there's kind of this. idea of everything that they did was. terrible, and that's just not true. We.

have a very high talent bar at the. company. We have always kept a high talent bar at. the company, and we haven't compromised. And what I found is that talented people. who are also driven. are on a constant hunt for the truth. So, culture isn't enough. You actually. need the right people at the company. And I think we've got a company that. does have a chip on its shoulder, was born out of the creation of a new. industry, so we've experienced it.

Um and we have a group of people who are. driven and hungry, and. are. constantly looking for change. And you. got a leader and a leadership team. that's pushing the company to do so and. doesn't penalize. folks for challenging them. I think it's kind of this stew that you. have to put together, but it's a. combination of. culture and people. Do you have any. mental case studies of great. bets the company has taken that most.

people wouldn't have taken or thought. was wrong or wouldn't have taken a risk. on that tran- transpired to be critical. to your success. >> Well, you know, I I don't know about. um. Well, I I think it will be critical to. to the success, but there's a funny one. which is. taxis. are one of the fastest growing parts of. Uber's business. So, you remember Uber, we started as the enemy of taxis. and built out this peer-to-peer ride. sharing. and it's probably five or six years ago,

our head of product now, Sa- Sachin, he. worked on building kind of um. a technology that would allow taxi. companies to to have their own little. Uber app. And eventually he came to Uber, thank. God, and he's like, "Well, why don't we. build that in Uber? Why don't we. actually build taxis on Uber?" And. originally within the company and and I. I kept in touch with some of the. founders just cuz I want their advice, cuz why not? You know, they they built a. great company. I'm standing on the. shoulders of giants.

Uh they said it's the most idiotic thing. on Earth that you can't wire up taxis, they hate us, they separate, it'll be. terrible, lots of technical reasons. They had tried it earlier. It was a. total failure. But, I think Sachin. uh having worked in the industry. and then my being kind of ignorant. saying, "Why the hell not try it?" That. combination allowed us to build out a. taxi product and taxi is the fastest. growing segment of the company and it. went completely against the founding of. the company. But, now we're, you know, I.

I hope to have every single taxi in the. world wired up to Uber. Why not? For the first 10 years that I was a. founder, I didn't prioritize getting a. good night's sleep at all. But, over. time I started to realize that it was. the key metric that influenced. everything in my life. I moved my focus, my ability to show up and to think. clearly and to lead well. So, now with. my lifestyle being pretty crazy, traveling across time zones, working. late, training late, I still fight to. protect my sleep, which sometimes means. starting the day a little bit later. It. was my Whoop that helped me to make this. connection. They are one of my sponsors. for the show and for the last 4 years. everyday my Whoop has given me insights.

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somewhat powered from what I understand. by Veramyst to some degree. But um the. world has changed in the last couple of. years as it relates to AI. There's been. a huge acceleration in investment and. improvement of the technology. What do. you. Aside from Uber. You talked earlier about your early. childhood and how you know, you grew up. with a bit of a paranoia about losing. everything because that's what you. experienced as a young man. You see this. technology arrive which is fundamentally. disruptive to all of us including me as. a podcaster. I'm like, I've done the. tests and the retention isn't.

The retention isn't far off when it's me. or AI. So, >> [laughter]. >> it's slightly concerning. But like how. do you how do you approach such a tech. disruptive technology? Um how do you. think of it broadly and the impact it's. going to have on society? And are you paranoid? I'm not paranoid. I'm not. I I guess I was going to say I'm not. built that way, but maybe I am. I I I. think my instinct is always just to go, just to move forward. And Uber has been. built out of an AI core. All of our. pricing, all of our routing, who you're. matched with, whether or not a courier batches trip,

which is do they take two orders or one. order, all of our systems, underlying. systems, are are driven by AI. We do 40. million trips a day. You know, that kind. of orchestration can't be done by uh. heuristic rules, and we've got to work. on the streets of New York and the. streets of Lagos as well. So, the the. we we have built the entire company on. small AI models that have been trained. on local problems, and then gets.

stitched together. That's literally what. the company is. So, for us, AI is it's. kind of a core skill set. And And AI can. it can mess things up, right? It It's. not because it's not heuristics based. There are. emergent issues that come out of. an AI that works 96% of time, and 4% of. time it screws up. So, we're comfortable with the. uncertainty layer of AI as a company. So, we are, I would say, moving headlong into AI.

We're not one of the, you know, research. shops, but I would say, in terms of. applied AI, the team is driving to build AI, kind of. newer AI experiences across the company. But, you know, stepping back as a as a. person, the impact on society is going. to be enormous. And going back to. Kurzweil's kind of law of accelerating. returns, whereas previously society has always. been able to adjust.

to these kinds of shifts. Um it's been able to adjust because it. had time. to adjust. And AI literally, quite literally, thinks. And AI will be able to replace. the work that. 70 80% of humans can do. over the next 10 years. 10 years is not a lot of time for. society to adjust to that kind of an. impact. Now, are they going to be more expensive. than humans, cheaper than humans, etc. who knows, but the capability will be.

there. Probably in the next 10 years for. intellectual jobs, probably call it. 15 years for physical, 15 20 years for. physical jobs because physical AI robots. is harder. You know, robots, cars, etc. more. capital heavy, takes longer, have to. deal with the physical world. So, the the. changes in society are going to be. giant. But, my view is. you can't slow down the rate of change.

And if you're a part of that change, at. least you can have some say. as to how that change imprints on. society and imprints on the real world. And so, for me I'm leaning in. It's a. it's a very very exciting time. 70 to 80% of jobs will be disrupted by. AI's like broadly what you said there. And the pace of change is going to mean. that a lot of people don't have new jobs. to go to. >> [clears throat]. >> Because we haven't. >> I think that's the question. The. retraining challenge and people say well.

there's going to be jobs in AI but like. listen, I got some friends that can't just. >> [laughter]. >> And you know, society's always adjusted, right? Farming was a huge percentage of. our labor force, now it's less than 1%. But the speed of Yeah, that I I think. that's the question. And you could argue. that AI's will be able to retrain you, right? But the the job retraining is. going to change. So, of course society. is going to adjust. But I I do think it raises questions, real questions. I've I've not been able. to get an answer on that really I think. from the experts in AI that I've. interviewed which is like what do those.

70 80 people percent of people do. because we're seeing it in our own. business that there's many jobs which we. would have hired for previously um. across the board that AI is now doing. exceptionally well and every single day, literally daily, we try to see if the. new model, Gemini Pro 3 or whatever, can. do things that we're currently doing. manually. And every day we're getting. those little breakthroughs and going, "Oh, okay, now we no longer need to" And. coding is one of those big areas that. you talk about a lot. Where there's been. already sort of big dis- disruption, positive disruption at Uber. And a lot of your coders are now using.

AI to. >> Yeah, about 90% of our coders are using. AI. Now, that's easy to say, but but. there are probably 30% of them that were. power users. They are showing a clear. um, differentiation in the number diffs, for example, how much uh, a diff is a. code release that's different from the. last code release. So, one of the. measurements of productivity is just how. many diffs are you putting to the code. base. Uber's just a giant code base. That's what we are. And so, our engineers are literally the. builders of the company. They are.

manufacturing the bricks that go into. the system. Uh, and there are architects who are. kind of thinking about what the system. should should look like. Uh, and so, while 90% of our engineers. are using. AI tools of some sort, there's about 30%. of them that are using them at a. completely accelerated pace. And it really is changing their. productivity in a way that I've never. ever seen before. Ultimately, I do think. that the.

job of a coder is going to change more. and more from actually writing the code. from to some extent orchestrating agents. who are writing the code or building. systems for you. It becomes more of an. orchestration job versus a manual. writing job. But, the job will still be. there. And my attitude is, if my average. engineer became 25 25% more efficient, which we haven't gone there yet, but we. will get there, I'm going to hire more.

engineers cuz I want to go faster. There's still lots of unsolved problems. that we haven't solved. But I can. imagine, you know, maybe 5 years from. now. as the engineers get more and more. productive, I may not decide to add. engineering headcount because at that. point, instead of adding an engineer, I. should add agents and buy some more GPUs. from Nvidia. That may be the investment. in the future. We'll see. Cuz thinking. about linear versus exponential as well, if we imagine the rate of improvement, I. don't know, in my head I go, "Well, when. will there come a time where you as the. CEO or you and a team, an executive.

team, can tell an agent what you want to. build? You can show it the strategy. And theoretically, I mean, I can't. figure out how this isn't going to be. possible, the agents will then build. Actually, maybe they didn't even need you to set. the strategy. Maybe. >> [laughter]. >> No, but theoretically, you know, if they. if you imagine any rate of improvement. in the intelligence, maybe at some point. they're going to go, "Well, listen, we. there's a better strategy here, Dara.". One one of my uh. uh one of my team members told me that. uh some teams have built uh a Dara AI,

you know, so so that they basically make. the presentation to the Dara AI as a. prep for making a presentation to me. Cuz you [laughter] can imagine, like, you know, by the time something comes to. me, there's been a prep and a meeting. and the and the slide deck has been. beautifully honed. So, they have Dara AI. to tune their prep. Are you concerned. they might show Dara AI to the board? >> [laughter]. >> I was like, I was like, "Can I see the. code for Dara AI?" I'm curious. She's. like, "No, we're not showing it to you.".

But is there anything like falsifiable. in what I just said about. that there coming a time in the not so. near future if we imagine exponential. improvement where. I think I think where AI. still is missing a beat that humans and. other creatures have is the ability to. learn real time. Right? So, if if you think about you and. I are learning for this conversation and. maybe. your behavior is going to change by 0.1%. because of actually what you learn here. And the construct of most large AI.

models is capture enormous enormous. amounts of data based on the skill set. that you're trying to drive, train pre-train that model, put it into the real world, and then. there's some post-training of the of the. model based on feedback from from the. world, and then when the model's. released, it's kind of released, right? And. the way the model learns is, you know, 3.5 becomes 3.8, but 3.5 didn't learn. The engineers went out and built, you. know, built a new model that's 3.8 that.

might have elements of 3.5 to it, etc. So, the the AI agents aren't learning. Now now a lot of what we're doing is. we're building around the foundation. models, then then bring kind of the. signals from the real world, and use the. skills that the foundation models have. to do good stuff. Sounds good to me. Yeah. Post-training. I'm post-training. >> Exactly. So, well, so we are. post-training, but. we're learning real time as human. beings. And when the models can learn.

real time, Mhm. that [clears throat] I. think is the point at which. I'm going to kind of think, yeah, we are. all replaceable. But at this point, I. haven't seen a model that can learn real. time. One of the real areas of. disruption in AI has been autonomous. vehicles. And I was just before we. started recording I was saying that uh I. have a Tesla in LA where I live, and. it's staggering that I can get in the. car, >> Yeah. >> press the button, and drive 2 and 1/2. hours to Joshua Tree without having to. touch the wheel or the the pedals.

Now, driving I think is one of the. biggest employers in the world, like as. of profession. I mean, we've got 9.5. million drivers and couriers on our. platform. We are the. the largest organizer of flexible work. around the world, and they I think the. second largest um workforce is the. Chinese army. Wow. Yeah. It's a big group of folks. that we've organized. And statistically, there's less accidents in an autonomous. Tesla than there is if a human drives. it. So, it's safer for my car to drive.

itself statistically than for me to. drive it. That's true, right? That the. autonomous driving is currently safer. That's true. So, Waymos are safer, and. then now you are a backup to the Tesla, right, as a human being. So, I've I've. got a Tesla as well, and once in a while. it disengages, and I've got to or I've. got to disengage. So, it it's not necessarily the pure. autonomous agent that's better than. humans, but definitely the autonomous. agent with a human backup, no question. that's better than the pure human. And.

we can't be far away from it just being. I mean, Waymos are already, right? You. You live in LA. They've got the Waymos. We work with. them in Austin, in Atlanta. And by all. accounts, Waymo drivers are safer than. human beings, and that's going to be. true of AV. all over the world. You know, there. there are a million deaths. uh from driving every year in the world. In the US, it's between 35,000 and. 40,000 auto fatalities. So, to the.

extent that these these autonomous. agents and drivers can be better than. humans, and they will be better than. humans over a period of time, uh there's. a real return on human life as a result. of this. Those 9 [snorts] million. drivers' careers that you have will be. out of work. conceivably in the you know, talking. about being honest about the situation. >> Yeah, I think again, it goes to physical. AI as well, right? So, I think 20 years. from now, you can imagine that those 9. million will be. 20 million uh AVs, maybe. But, we have.

time between now and then, partially. because we don't operate in the virtual. world, right? We operate in the physical. world. You have to get the regulations. up. You have to build the cars. You have. to build the sensor stacks. The The. models have to get there. So, there is. time between now and then but you can. imagine the majority of our trips being. fulfilled by robots of some kind. Probably not 10 years from now. but you go 15-20 years from now, you're.

going to start getting there. What do the 9 million people do? I don't know. Now we are expanding the kind of work. that's available on on on the platform. partially as a result of it, right? We. used to be the only work is driving, now. there's delivering, you can have. shoppers as well. I think it'll be a a. little while at least before you get AI. shoppers. And now actually we have a. team called Uber AI solutions that. allows people to train.

these same agents and train AI agents. and AI models. and do all kinds of knowledge-based work. on their phone as well to kind of extend. the kind of work that we offer humans on. our platform and different opportunities. for them for them to to make money. So. we are extending the platform and then. the question is how much of the platform. gets automated and what's the velocity. of which we can extend our platform into. other kinds of work versus the velocity. of automation. I can't tell you which is.

going to go faster. Hands-on heart. though, it does appear that unemployment is. going to be significantly increased in a. world of AI especially we just imagine. this sort of continued rate of. improvement. I just can't You would have. to I unless again. historically in societies new kinds of. jobs have come up. Knowledge jobs, physical jobs. >> Yeah, I mean And now we've disrupted. both. That's why there's a question here and I. do think there's a real question as to. the ability of societies to retrain, the. abilities of human beings to retrain.

themselves. AI is going to be a part of. that but the timing there, how fast is. it going to go? It's a real question. mark. I think you're absolutely right. I. don't think it's going to be a big issue. big issue uh in the next 5 years, but. when you go 5 plus years, it's going to. become more of a more more of an issue. for society at large. It's interesting. cuz what I was thinking putting two and. two together about your your your. father's journey of coming to the US, losing what he had, losing his job, and. the the loss of like meaning and purpose.

being really central to him. And I could. see that in basically from your face. that I think what I interpreted from. your face was that he struggled with as. any provider would, the loss of like. meaning that comes with cuz jobs aren't. just about money. They're It's. especially, you know, they give you a sense of worth. And it's funny. I I I read I read a. study many years ago that said when they. looked at. suicide letters specifically from men, I. think it was an Australian study, in the suicide letters, the the. sentiment was about not feeling.

worth. Yes. For to your family. Yeah. And the extreme of that was I think my. family would actually now be better off. without me. Interesting. And um. and this kind of, you know, I think is. probably. adjacent to this conversation around job. displacement, which is where are we. going to find our meaning. in a world where. the machines have now disrupted our. intelligence and our muscles. It's every universal income basic income. test has failed.

You know, the answer that you hear from. folks is, "Well, the robots are going to. do all the work. They're going to create. um utility. And so, our work won't have. to create utility, so people will just. have money.". But it goes to exactly what you're. saying, which is every single test. they've done No, it's not 20, but. they've done a couple tests where. certain section of the population, similar population, gets income, certain. section doesn't, and every time the ones. who are getting income. do worse in terms of outcomes because,

well, we don't know the because. But I. think the because is related to what. you're saying, which is. market forces kind of that force someone. to work then create. a perception of self-value. Succeeding, you know, most people succeed if they're. driven to succeed, they will succeed. And as they succeed, it comes with a. very, very deep and important feeling of.

I am creating value. I'm supporting my. family. I'm. uh building this incredible piece of. art, etc. Whatever that value is to you. and wherever that meaning comes from, I'm an incredible parent. That value is. what keeps people going. Uh and I don't think that, you know, the. government is raining money down on. society is going to help. It's. refreshing to hear your perspective on. this because a lot of the time, you. know, you'll hear CEOs in the media just. saying, "It'll be fine. Everyone's going. to figure it out." And I think that's.

such a cop-out. >> we have figured it out. So, maybe. they're right. But but you have to ask. whether they're giving you the real. stuff or not. Yeah, and that's kind of. what I That's what I I think is I. sometimes hear about private. conversations. In the private. conversations, I hear about the sheer. amount of disruption that they. anticipate. And then when I see them on. like CNBC or at Davos, it's like, "Everything will be fine. We'll figure. it out." And I understand the incentive. because if they were to start ringing. the bell, it might hurt their own chance of like. innovating and fundraising and all those. things. But I think you sit at this sort. of happy medium of being, yeah, as the. CEO of Uber, you've got to take you've.

got to pursue the opportunity in the. technology. But on the other hand, to be. honest and say, "Listen, there's going. to be big disruption and we I don't know. the answers." I remember you were. talking about CNBC. A CNBC anchor once. we had an interview and afterwards, she said, "You know, I really like you. You actually answer my questions.". >> [laughter]. >> And I'm thinking to myself, what am I not supposed to? There There's. like the the PR training is always if. you get a bad question, don't answer the. question, just pivot to something else. And for me, like I've I've sworn to.

myself uh and Noah who's who's up there. is probably going to kill me afterwards. It's just I'm going to answer the. question. I'm not going to do the BS. And again, I have to think. the anchor knows what's happening. The audience knows what what's. happening. So, I'm like, "Oh, I'll. answer the question." If it's a shitty. question, I'll deal with it. I actually. don't like interviewing CEOs, which is. funny cuz the name of the podcast, because active CEOs. >> did how did the the. cuz I I looked before I came on. I'm. like, "I'm going to look up on. uh the uh yeah, the CEOs." And there.

aren't that many CEOs. Well, if I looked. at your diary, what would I find inside your diary? I. would probably find you contending with. being a father, your psychology. I might. find some things in there about your. health. I can see you're a guy that goes. to the gym. >> Yeah. Yeah. Um and I think it's all. interlinked. I think for you to be an. exceptional CEO, you probably think a. lot about your past, your childhood, your health, your how to optimize, and. all these things. And so, honestly, you can't do a podcast like. this for 20 years and just hit the same. thing every week. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You need to be like I.

need to be intellectually stimulated. And you and me are both multifaceted. creatures, I guess. So, that's why it's. evolved. >> Until we become AIs. Until we become AIs. Yeah. Just closing off on that then. Um. what can we do about this from an AI AV. perspective? Is it the government's. responsibility? Is it collective action? So, one is I do think that we don't talk. enough in that for example, the. autonomous AI can be a force for good, right? It's these drivers are going to.

be safer than human beings. And those we can take the 35,000. fatalities to 3,000 fatalities, etc. I. do think that the AIs, the AV is going. to bring down the price of. transportation. So, a a big part of our. goal is to make on-demand transportation. available for everybody. One of the. folks that I was talking to was talking. about how Uber has changed her mother's. life. Like her mom can get around and it. just wouldn't get around without it, right? We want more moms like that. So,

I do think it's important to recognize. that if transport fundamental. transportation becomes safer, it becomes. cheaper, going back to Jevons paradox, that's a good thing for society, right? I don't think that the answer as it. relates to society is to try to slow. down the pace of change because. China won't. For example, if we're uh. talking about the West. So, I think you. just have to lean into it.

I think that discussions like this are. important. I think you look for. technology leaders who are talking about. it. Dario, for example, Anthropic is. talking uh about it. Pissing some people. off, but I think he's having good. discussions there. And then I do think. that. the the society arming up to be able to. retrain. large groups of people at scale. is not a skill. I don't see people. investing in that. And I don't see that as a core. capability of any.

of our countries, etc. If there's one. thing I can come up with, it would be. that is the retraining machine. You've. got four four kids. Yes. They come to you, they say, "Dad, listen, AI, [clears throat] robotics, what give me some advice for my future. What should I be doing?". >> Work hard. You're going to be fine. Work hard. It's It's just that's I mean, now the. AIs theoretically can can work harder. than you, but I I find. one of the pieces of advice I give to. young people is don't plan.

Okay, I wind up we went through our. history. I wind up where I am today. having not planned a thing. I didn't. when I was a investment banker, I wasn't. dreaming of becoming a CEO, etc. And And what I find is that people who. have too much of a career plan, who have. too much clarity about what they're. doing, they they lose their curiosity. And And human beings look for positive. signal, right? You, whether you like it. or not, anytime someone agrees with you, makes.

you feel a little bit better. Anytime you get signal that goes against. your preconceived notions, either you. ignore it or you're like, "All right, [ __ ] I'm going to I'm going. to take this on." It's unpleasant. And so, with with career planning, what I find. is people who have too clear a career. plan, they're looking for signals that feed. into their career plan. I'm going to be. a vice president by this much. I'm going. to make X money by this much. And. they're not looking around. They're not. being curious. They're they're not. looking for signal that can change, you.

know, their life. And and and so, what I. tell some folks is like, "Before you go. out and try to change the world, let the. world change you first.". You know, take input. And if you're like this, you got. blinders cuz I'm going here, you're not. going to take input. You're not going to. let You're not going to take all the. stimulus coming in from the world. So, it's, you know, the one constant I see. is. people who are good are good. People who. are good. I've never seen a successful. person in in a job or a career get there.

without. working hard. And my guess is, I don't. know about you, you kind of wound up. where you wound up. wound up kind of by accident. >> right. And people are like, "Well, you. got lucky." I got very lucky. to be here. Like, I had so many kind of. moments. And and some would say I took. advantage of that. of that luck, but to some extent, I was. able to take advantage of that luck. because I was open. Being open, you jumped from Expedia to.

Uber. Um in part helped by some advice. that our mutual friend Daniel Ek, the. founder of Spotify, gave you. Uh he's. actually just text me. I text him. saying, "Hey, can you uh. can you send me a question to ask. Daniel?" But he said, "I'm in the middle. of You're texting while we're talking. Damn it. No, just before I walked in. I've just looked at you, he text me back. saying he's on an earnings call. >> [laughter]. >> Never mind. But um he said good luck with the. interview. Um what did Daniel Ek say to. you that helped to you form that. decision to go to Uber? So, he's the one. who recommended, I think I was I was uh.

contacted by headhunter. He recommended. me to the headhunter who called me. Uh I told them I was actually at the. Allen & Company conference going back in. a uh circle with him and we were having. a drink one night and he asked me, he's. like, "Did the headhunter call you? There's this Uber role." And at the at. the time Uber was a disaster, like. disaster, and everyone was reading about. it. I was at Expedia, I had just gotten. this wonderful contract that you said at. the beginning. So, I was I was going to. stay and I love working for Barry. We're. like it it it's been it's been.

the best professional partnership of of. my life. And I said, "Of course I'm not going to. go, you know, I'm so happy about what. I'm doing at Expedia.". And Daniel like looks at me, he's got. got his like cold Scandinavian eyes. He's like, "Dara, since when is life. about being happy? It's about making impact. Uber's a great. company and you can have an impact on. that company. You've got to. do this.". So, the next day.

I had called the headhunter previously, I said, "No, no, no, I'm not. interested." The next day I called the. headhunter and I said, "Let's talk." So, Daniel was the one who. opened me up. And your dad? He gave you advice? >> Well, I talked to my dad and uh as my. dad is. keeps things simple and he said, "Dara, in his farsi, when a company who's a verb. tells you to run it, you just say yes.". So, I thought that was good uh.

good advice and and ultimately I think. people. who. come to Uber stay at Uber. They They because of the challenge, but. they stay because of the impact. Like we. are building a company that is important. to the world. And for me, I could come. and I could have an I could have an. impact an impactful company, so why the. hell not? And when he says a company. that's a verb, he's referring to the. fact that everybody in the the taxi or. transportation category uses Uber as a.

verb to even if they're talking about a. competitor. Exactly right. Um and. there's always one company in every kind. of kind of industry that does that. >> We have a closing tradition here where. the last guest leaves a question for the. next guest not knowing who they're. leaving it for. And the question left. for you. is what is one conversation that if you. could rewind time and have, you would. have today but can no longer have? It was a conversation with both my dad. Um. you know, I told you I came to New York.

from San Francisco and it was because my. dad was getting very old and he was. losing his mental facilities. And I'm glad I came back and I got to. spend time with him. But those last times, you know, when I. spent time with him, it wasn't really. him. And I wish I could talk to him about his. experiences, his younger life, the excitement of. building something, and then the loss. and regrets he had in in life as well. I. never had, you know, my relationship.

with him was kind of. was there was love. No question about. love. But we didn't have the deep kind of. conversations that certainly I'm hoping. I get to have with my kids. So that's a. conversation I'd love to have. And you can't get uh time back. Uh and that's one of the tragedies of. life. But it's also one of the beauties of. life, you know, which is there are some. mistakes that you make that are. permanent. Um and you can't get that back. But my then making genuine conversations.

with you and connections with my friends. and having a real relationship not just. with my wife and my kids, but actually. like with my workmates. You know, we. having those genuine conversations and. connections. um is my way of correcting. for the conversation I never had with my. dad. Darth, thank you. Thank you very much. I. appreciate it. You're a huge inspiration.

for me in so many ways and even more so. now having done so much research on you. in preparation for this conversation. because it is it is rare to find a. leader who has been consistently. successful across different domains, who's built this really, really, in my. opinion, quite rare skill stack from. investing to CFO to then being able to. transition to CEO and then has. repeatedly contended with moments of. transition and given us all frameworks. as founders and entrepreneurs for how to. deal with that transition. One of the. great ones I take away from you is is. honesty. Yeah, honesty is so powerful. and I'll tell you I learned I learned.

that skill from my wife. She's just. she. she knows like people are people. Doesn't matter, you know, they eat, they. crap, they have to go to sleep and she. treats everybody in her life the same. way regardless of their position in in. uh Like your dad did. >> Uh yeah. Yeah, and she's she's on-. honesty. is just so powerful. Thank you so much. You're very welcome. >> An unbelievable inspiration. Thank you. I appreciate it. YouTube have this new crazy algorithm.

where they know exactly what video you. would like to watch next based on AI and. all of your viewing behavior and the. algorithm says that this video is the. perfect video for you. It's different. for everybody looking right now. Check. this video out. I bet you you might love. it.