Top Psychologist, Donald Hoffman: Seeing True Reality Would Kill Us! I Can Prove It To You!

The world that you're seeing isn't the. true world. All of this that I'm seeing. right now was just a virtual reality. It's like you're born with headset on. playing a video game. That's your. reality. But if you're the programmer. who wrote the code for the game, you. know that there's an entire world. outside of it. And as the programmer, you can do miracles. >> And do you think we're getting closer to. being able to edit the code? >> That's exactly what I'm working on right. now. And we're opening up a realm of new. technologies that are far more powerful. than anything we've seen before. Like. time travel. And nuclear bombs will be. like firecrackers. >> Will people suffer?

>> So it's like Pandora's Box. There's all. sorts of nasty surprises. But they also. could be miraculous. But either way, just in the last few months it's started. to crack open. >> So let's talk about that. >> Okay. >> So Professor Donald Hoffman is the. cognitive scientist pushing the. boundaries of how we perceive reality. >> And how we can unlock our full potential. as human beings. >> According to Darwin's theory, our. sensory systems, eyes, ears, smell, touch, are not shaped to show us the. truth. They were shaped to keep you. alive long enough to reproduce. successfully. Because seeing the truth. takes too much time and energy. And so.

whatever reality is, it's utterly unlike. anything that I perceive. >> Well, what does this all mean for the. nature of how one should understand. their life? >> Well, if you're stuck in a boring world, that's a world of your own creation. That's not the real world. And my. conscious experiences are nothing but. what my brain creates. And so we feel. inadequate. We feel like we need to. compete with other people. But you're. the inventor of this whole thing. You. have nothing to prove. And there are. much more interesting perspectives that. we can take on ourselves. So if you. really knew who you are, you would see.

no need to compare or compete. >> And is there a way for me to understand. who I am? >> If you want to understand the truth of. who you are beyond just this headset. description of you, then you have to. >> I see messages all the time in the. comment section that some of you didn't. realize you didn't subscribe. So if you. could do me a favor and double-check if. you're a subscriber to this channel, that would be tremendously appreciated. It's the simple, it's the free thing. that anybody that watches this show. frequently can do to help us here to. keep everything going in this show in.

the trajectory it's on. So, please do. double check if you subscribed and uh. thank you so much because in a strange. way you are you're part of our history. and you're on this journey with us and I. appreciate you for that. So, yeah, thank. you. Professor Donald Hoffman, do you think that the listeners of this. show, the people listening right now, understand the nature. of reality and the world that they're. looking at and see?

>> I think that no one, even the most. advanced professionals, really. understands the nature of reality and. it's the one of the big open problems. and questions in science today. We all. might have ideas, we might think we know. something. Our best science suggests. that our imagination is not yet big. enough. We need to explore further. >> What is it that you believe is the big. sort of misconception about how we. perceive reality? >> Well, most of us think of reality as. whatever is inside space and time. We.

actually know that space-time cannot be. the fundamental nature of reality. >> And what is space-time? >> So, everything that you see around us, right? The the the space between you and. me, there's maybe one or two meters of. space between you and me. That's what. space space-time is. All all the stuff. that we can see in our telescope, put it. that way. If you can see it in your. telescope, it's part of space-time. But we know our our best theories of. space-time, Einstein's theory together. with quantum theory, tell us that. space-time cannot be the fundamental.

nature of reality. There's a small if you go small, so I. can talk about a meter. >> Yeah. >> And then I can go to, you know, centimeters and then, you know, millimeters. And then we can go, you. know, micrometers and and you can go. smaller and smaller. At some point you. go so small that space disappears. It it. no longer even makes sense. mathematically. It's 10 to the minus 33. cm. So, it's actually not that in my view, it's not that small. It's not 10 to the. minus 33 trillion cm. It's just 10 to.

the minus 33 cm, and all of a sudden our. equations tell us. um. space-time doesn't have any. effective meaning. >> Is space-time a proxy for the word. reality in some respects? >> Well, for most people I think it is. For. most people they think that that. space-time is the reality, and what I'm. saying is. is the reality that most of us have. assumed is the final reality, and. science is now telling us it can't be. It actually and it tells us precisely at. 10 to the minus 33 cm, 10 to the minus.

43 seconds, the very notion of. space-time. makes no sense. >> Is that the same as saying that. reality as I perceive it makes no sense? >> I'm suggesting, now as a cognitive. scientist not a physicist, we should. think of space-time as just a virtual. reality headset. That's the way we. perceive in our game of life. >> And when you say space-time you mean the. the thing that I'm perceiving with my. eyes and ears and senses right now? >> That's right. Even this hard table is.

just a VR. object. And the whole. setting that we're here in here right. now is just a virtual reality, and there. is a. a reality entirely outside this headset. that that's is open to science to. explore, and we're finding stuff, which. you might call obelisks, geometric. objects outside of space-time. So, so. this is all brand new in the last since. like 20. 2010 or something like that, roughly. >> So, do you believe that? Do you believe. that everything I'm experiencing and. seeing now is basically.

like equivalent to me wearing a virtual. reality headset, and that. there's something beyond. the virtual reality headset. >> Completely. I cuz I believe the science. And. the predictions of our theories about. space-time are so good. Now, I. I have to always be careful about what. I'm saying versus and I don't want to. put words in the physicist's mouth. So, when I say I think it's a virtual. reality, that's Hoffman, that's not. physics, right? >> Are you able to swap out the phrase. spacetime for reality?

Or is that inaccurate? >> I think that. whatever reality is, spacetime is. a trivial aspect of it. There's much more to reality than. spacetime. Spacetime is all the real. It's It's like a a player in Grand Theft. Auto. If all you've done is play in Grand. Theft and that's you you're born with a. headset on and that's all you've That's. that's your reality. But if you're the programmer who wrote. the code and you know the supercomputer. that's running Grand Theft Auto,

you know the Grand Theft Auto um. it is a nice self-contained world, but. there's an entire world outside of it. that's utterly unlike Grand Theft Auto. It's It's the supercomputer with diodes. and resistors and voltages that are. being toggled and when when some dude is. turning his wheel to to drive the car, what's really happening when he turns. the wheel is that millions of voltages. are being toggled in a specific order in. some computer and it has to be exactly. that right sequence for the thing to. work properly. And and the guy that's. turning the wheel has no idea what's.

going on. There's this other whole realm. utterly outside your imagination in. Grand Theft Auto. And so, you know, if. you're in Grand Theft Auto, you might. not even know about computers and. toggling voltages and so All you know is. I got a steering wheel and a gas pedal. and streets and and people to race and. so forth and things to to steal and and. whatever. >> But you don't realize there's a puppet. master effectively controlling you. >> Behind the scenes. And so, I I think. that spacetime is just a very effective. headset. >> For anyone that doesn't know, Grand.

Theft Auto is a video game where you run. around a virtual world, basically. >> That's right. Yeah, driving You're. driving nice fancy cars in this in this. world. That's right. >> So, everything I see. right now is a. projection that I've made on the world, my world, in order to help me to. survive. And my brain is not showing me. things that it doesn't think I need to. see because they won't be conducive with. survival, because they are cognitively. in terms of like um.

how much fuel and energy they would. require to process and think about. They. are. cognitively inconsequential. Or like it would be inefficient for me. to spend my cognitive power to see those. things. >> That's exactly right. And for a lot of. people, I think. that's counterintuitive, because they. would say, "Look, evolution is about. making you fit, so you can live and. survive long enough to reproduce. successfully. And surely. evolution should do that by making you. see the truth. I mean, if you see the.

truth, then you're going to compete in. the game of life much more. successfully than if you don't see the. truth. So, so what are you talking about. this headset nonsense for? This is not a. headset. This is the truth. I mean, and. evolution should shape us to see the. truth." Now, I think that's what most. people would would would assume. And in. fact, very intelligent experts in the. field assume that. And I suggest otherwise. In fact, we. have mathematical proofs otherwise. If. you look at evolution, Darwin said, "Look, we need to.

think about a gradual. evolution over time of these species, maybe from very very simple ones to more. complex ones. And what what is going to. drive that dynamics? And And Darwin. suggested it was what we would call. reproductive fitness. That That those. organisms that have. physical properties, sensory systems, motor systems, you know, movement. systems, that.

make them more likely to have offspring. and to raise offspring to maturity. Whatever properties those might be, that's what we're going to call fitness. So, the more fit you are. is really saying how likely are you to. have and successfully raise offspring. So, Darwin suggested that. I don't think. that he necessarily had to say that. there was no God. It was just that there. If there is a God, it's not like God put. it down perfect. He did an evolutionary.

process. >> Yeah. Well, the organisms adapt to their. environment. Um. well, they're not adapting, but the. offspring that survive are those best. adapted to the environment. >> That's right. So, that was Darwin's. idea. So, the the gradual evolution from. presumably simpler organisms to more and. more complicated complicated organisms. And um and then. multiple evolutions of things like eyes, like cephalopod eye evolved differently. from the human eye. Um and the cephalopod eye got certain.

things right that the human eye got. wrong. >> Is that because the cephalopod eye was. in a different environment, so it had. different requirements? >> That would be one possible reason. I I. actually don't know in the case of the. cephalopods why, but that kind of idea. is absolutely one of the reasons that. that could have happened. Another one, it could just be an accident, right? There's probability involved, and so. there at some point you have the right. accident, and then then the humans got. the thing reversed. >> So, you're saying Darwin was wrong in. some respect, or that he there was. something missing from his theory? >> Oh, no. I I think Darwin's I I.

I. In terms of biology, I think that there is um. no serious competitor to Darwin's theory. of evolution by natural selection. In in. terms of a scientific theory of the. origin of species and so forth. And it's. Darwin's theory. and the mathematical formulation of it. that I think also says. that what we're perceiving is not the. truth. That our sensory systems. on Darwin's theory.

were not shaped to show us the truth. They were shaped. to keep you alive long enough to. reproduce successfully. Period. That's. all Darwin's theory actually says. Most of us think the way this. evolutionary process does it is to make. sure that your senses are telling you. the truth about the external reality. I published some papers with um with. colleagues where we show. mathematically that Darwin's theory does. not entail that at all. In fact,

Darwin's theory. says. the probability is zero. that any sensory system, like eyes, ears, smell, touch, taste, has ever been shaped. to see any aspect of objective reality. truly. So, the probability is zero. that you see any aspect of the truth. Period. On Darwin's theory. What you do experience. is. sensory systems that guide adaptive.

behavior. Guide adaptive behavior means. um they let you act. >> So, your eyes, your nose. >> Your eyes, your nose, yeah. Yeah, your. eyes and nose and more. They they guide. you so that you act in ways that you. don't die too quickly. >> Okay. >> And you can have kids that don't die too. quickly. That's That's all it's about. >> I was just playing out the scenario then. that you removed my. eyes and you removed my ears and my nose. and my. ability to sense, you know, temperature.

and things like that. All of my senses. I thought If I was the only person on. Earth and you removed all of my senses, what would reality be? Because if you remove my senses, reality no longer exists as far as I'm. aware of it. But that doesn't mean. nothing exists. And I'm wondering what. that nothing would be. Like if you just. imagine like wipe off everyone on the. Earth and it's just you and we remove. all of your senses, what what is in that space? Cuz you're. right, my senses, my eyes, my ears,

my ability to understand temperature is. a byproduct and consequence of me. surviving. So, I was playing out this and I was. like, well, if we think about ghosts and the. afterlife, maybe there was no reason from a. survival perspective that I even needed. to be able to. see or acknowledge. That maybe it just. didn't help. Maybe it actually would. have hurt me to have. >> Right. >> Um cuz it would have been too. cognitively demanding to process all of. that information. So, anybody that could.

process all that information wouldn't. have been good at reproducing, therefore. they wouldn't survive, therefore they. wouldn't be here. So, maybe those of us. that are here. were just really good at ignoring. the other dimensions. >> That's what our mathematics says. I. think that your your intuitions on that. are are are quite right that. if you pay attention to anything other. than what allows you to have kids, you're wasting your time from an. evolutionary point of view. Perception.

is expensive. It takes a lot of. calories. You have to eat a lot of food. to to run your brain, to power your eyes. and your ears. So, you need to do. shortcuts. You need to make your sensory. systems not chew up so much of your. energy. The more expensive your your. perceptual systems are, the more you've. got to eat to to power those. So, that. means you have to go out there and. forage and you and put yourself at. harm's. So, it's it's it's So, there's a. trade-off. We try to do things cheaply. in evolution. And going for the truth,

you don't need to actually go for the. truth cuz that's very very expensive. So, so for example, there are some. flying insects. that need to lay their their off their. eggs on in in water. And they use the trick of just looking. at the polarization of the light coming. off the water. So, what what you see happening in. evolution is we have tricks and hacks. And and even in humans have tricks and.

hacks. And you for for example, trying. to find out if someone is reproductively. fit. Right? We We You You can't I can't. actually look at your DNA and and go, "Well, okay. You got He's got an ACG and T, but he's. got a C here where it's supposed to be a. T." Or or No, I I can't look at your. DNA. So, what do I look at? I have to. look at your at your what I can see of. your body and and your voice and and so. forth. So, >> One of the most compelling arguments for. the fact that we aren't seeing reality. as it is, and we're actually only seeing.

what we need to see in order to survive, is when you look at as you were saying. is how different animals see the world. And can you just give me some examples. of some more examples of different. animals that see the world completely. differently? I always think about bats. How do How do bats see the world? Cuz do. they see colors like we see them and. objects like we see them? >> No, no. Bats use echolocation. They'll. send out little bursts of sound, um at. very very high frequencies, and then. they have these big ears that capture. the returns and of. >> at their sensory system. It says, "Most.

insect-eating bats use echolocation, as. you said. They emit high-frequency sound. waves. >> Yes. >> and see by listening to the echoes. bouncing off other objects.". >> And this gives them some kind of sonic. map of their surroundings, helping them. to navigate and effectively see in total. darkness. So, you imagine a bat. >> Right. >> like then they if a bat is sat there. thinking that they understand the nature. of reality, when it's actually just a map of how the. sound waves bounce back, they I imagine.

don't have the same. a complete They have a completely. different perception of what reality is. to us. And it's therefore it would be quite. ignorant to assume that we as humans. are seeing reality as it is, when just. like the bat, we're probably. adapted to. our environment and built senses, eyes, ears, touch that helped us to survive. >> I would agree with you, but some of my. colleagues would disagree and they would. say. humans are much more complicated.

And you know, surely bats and so forth, they have to have all these shortcuts. and they don't see reality as it is, but. but we've evolved further and we're. closer to the truth. From my point of. view, what I see this table and this cup. and so forth. is just a a convenient fiction. Whatever reality is, it's utterly unlike. anything that I perceive, utterly. >> In a TED Talk that you did in 2000 in. the 2000s, you talked about simulations. that you ran to prove that.

I guess in in in part. that. I'm only seeing things that will help me. to survive as a creature, as an. organism. Can you explain to me simply. what what those simulations were and. what they proved? >> Oh, yes, in our in our simulations, and. this is before we had theorems. So, we. did simulations just to see if the ideas. were working. And we would have. artificial organisms in a computer. >> Yeah. >> So, it was like a a game that we put. together. And we would have a world and. and we would let some organisms actually.

see the true state of that world. So, they they were the truth organisms. And then we'd have other ones that um. only had like a a headset an interface. that only could see not the truth, but. but just some little bit of information. that that could guide adaptive behavior. >> That would help them to survive. >> yeah, and and reproduce. That that's. right. What we found was. for a wide range of of. conditions of of the algorithm, the the. organisms that saw the truth went. extinct. They they weren't able to.

compete the ones with the ones that. didn't. And one of the things that came. out of it was seeing the truth takes too. much time and energy. It is complicated. to see the truth. And if you you a simple trick. that lets you do the same thing. without having to be have a deep. insight, then you can get the same. benefit. You can get the benefit without. having to put all the the effort out. And I can give you a concrete example of. a of a organism that does this that's. that's pretty funny. So, there's the. jewel beetle. It lives in the outback of.

Australia. It's dimpled, glossy, and. brown. The males fly, the females are. flightless. So, the males are flying around, of. course, looking for an eligible female. It turns out that men in the outback. tended to for a while were were drinking. beer with these bottles that were also. dimpled, glassy, glossy, and and brown. They throw them out into the into the. outback, and they turned out to be. dimpled, glassy, and just the right. shade of brown to grab the attention of. the male jewel beetles. They're They're. actually on the bottle. They're full.

body contact. They're crawling all over. it, and they still think it's a female. So, how much do they know about their. women? Very, very little they know about. their women. The a woman a female is. something dimpled, glossy, and brown. Apparently, the bigger the better. And. that's what a female is. So, you can see. evolution didn't give these male beetles. much insight into their females. They. gave them just enough information to. successfully reproduce, period. And. that's sort of what evolution does. It. It gives you just enough information to.

um reproduce before you die. >> So, they're all making love to this beer. bottle because they can't tell they. can't see. >> That's right. >> reality. They can't see that this isn't. a woman, this is a beer bottle. >> That's right. That's one of the more. humorous examples of of what evolution. has done. It does things on the cheap. And that includes human sensory systems. So, it's it's very humbling. We're not. the epitome, and what we think is human. appreciation of the deep truth of. reality is just. our little headset. What we experience.

and know. is. trivial. compared to whatever reality is, absolutely trivial. We know 0% of reality. And our By the way, our scientific. theories. will always and forever explain 0% of. reality. Because. they have to make assumptions. And every. theory, scientific theory has to make. assumptions. And so, we're going to have. an We'll have, in principle, an infinite. sequence of theories.

with ever deeper assumptions, and we'll. never get to the bottom. And since it's. it's an infinite sequence, that means. everything we got so far is 0%. So, I I'm a scientist. I'm all for. science. I encourage young men and women. to go into science. I think it's a great. thing to do. Um but just know that um. all of our theories will. comprehend 0% of reality. You know, people talk a lot about how their pets. or other animals are able to see another.

dimension. Sometimes people say things. like, "My dog started barking at this.". Or cancer, and there's dogs or animals. that have been able to um they they. believe spot certain diseases inside the. human body. And when you look at the. sort of sensory faculties of these dogs, dogs can hear frequencies up to 65,000. hertz, whereas humans can only go to. 20,000 hertz. Dogs have up to 300. million olfactory receptors. Humans just. have 5 million.

And some animals like cats can see. different sort of uh frequencies of. light. So, it does it does beg a question, you. know, if it's possible for an animal, an. organism, to see the world. in a different depth and width than us, what what happens if you go further? Right. Uh absolutely. There are some. that can detect electric electric. fields. So, some um fish can detect. electric fields. Um some birds, I believe, can see the. polarization of light.

And some some uh insects, of course, use. polarization of light to to find where. to lay their eggs. So, and and we can't. do that. So, so yeah, when we start to study. other animals, we see these remarkable. ability. >> Interesting. And what does um. what does this all mean. for the nature of how one should. understand their life? Because I guess. the way the way that we perceive the. world causes us so much suffering or. joy, depending on how we perceive it. Is. there anything people from all of the.

work you've done and the books you've. written that people can bring into their. lives to help them live better lives. with this understanding of the world? >> First thing to notice that the world is. far more. interesting and. varied. than you can imagine. So, if you if you. think the world is a boring place, it. it's not. Your imagination isn't big enough. Whatever reality is, it it transcends. anything that you could possibly. imagine. Spiritual traditions basically often.

say, "There's more to life than what you. see inside space and time. There's. something beyond.". And. I've been sort of pointing to that. myself in my own way. I'm saying that. scientific theories always have. assumptions, so there's an infinite. number of scientific theories that you. can have, and you're never. going to get a scientific theory of. everything. What am I saying? That there's something beyond science. As. good as science is, I'm saying there's not only not a theory. of everything, the best theory we'll.

ever come up with is 0% of reality. So, that leaves all this room for what the. spiritual traditions are talking about, that there's something that trans. transcends science. There is a a way of thinking about this. that I think is very illuminating, and. it it's about the inter intersection of. science and spirituality. I'm a scientist. Who Who Who am I? I am someone, and and I'm one of many. someones, other scientists who can create theories.

and in principle ever ever deeper. theories and there's an infinite. sequence. So, who is the I. that can do this? No theory that I can come with come up. with. is. the final description of that I. In. other words, the I. that is doing all this theory building. is the I. that is real. that is making these theories and that. utterly transcends all these theories.

and that's a spiritual point of view. >> So, what does that mean? You're You're. God? >> It means that whatever you are. transcends any description and that's. what a lot of people say God is. Suppose I give you something you've. never tasted before like piece of mint. and actually I don't know what mint. tastes like to you. I assume that it's. like what mint tastes like for me, but I. don't know. This is called learning by. ostensive definition. And so, we have this game where your. experiences are your experiences.

And. you actually. didn't need anybody else for those. experiences. All you needed me for or. your parents for is to give you a name. for what you already knew. And and you you create this this world. and all we do is tell you how to talk. with me about what you've created and I. don't know that your world. in any way resembles my experience. It's. quite possible. >> And do you think there's ways that we. cause ourselves a lot of anguish and. pain and mental health issues because of. how we perceive.

the nature of reality to be that we. could potentially I don't know give up. or rewire ourselves on to have a. have a more fulfilling more grateful. experience of life? >> Completely. I think that's. very very important. And it's a natural consequence of what. we've just been talking about. Almost all of us think of ourselves as. an object in space-time. only here for a short amount of time and. will soon die. When I say you transcend any scientific. theory, that that means the theory.

that I. am just. a 160-lb object in space-time. is just a theory and it's not the truth. That's not the truth about who I am. That's just a theory that I have because. space-time itself is just a theory. Nothing inside space-time is anything. but my headset interpretation of a. reality that. infinitely transcends anything I can. experience. There is another way that you can.

appreciate that that's that transcends. science and that is. um and this many meditative traditions. talk about this. They recognize that. you. are infinitely. beyond any scientific or any other. description. So, what do you do in that case to know. who you are? You drop all descriptions. You sit. in absolute silence and ignore any. thoughts because you recognize thoughts. are useful in this headset and to play.

the game of life. Yeah, we need thoughts. to do our science. We need to. If you want to understand who I am, again, I do psychology, I do all this. stuff. I'll do the science so I'm not. putting science down. I'm a scientist. But at some point, if you want to. understand. the truth of who you are beyond just. this headset description of you, then you have to lay aside all concepts, period. And just know yourself by being. yourself, not by.

putting a concept between you and. yourself. >> A story. >> A story. >> An identity. >> That's right. No no story, no identity, nothing between you and yourself. You. you know yourself by sitting in utter. silence and being yourself, no concepts. Because then you've let go of all. theories. and now it's reality. facing reality. No barrier in between. >> And that requires you to to realize that. your identity, the stories you believe,

the labels you've given yourself as CEO. or social media manager or manager or. director or head of department, all of. these things are just in fact labels. you've given. >> That's right. Those are all just labels. that you've given. And what's. interesting about this now. is if I think I'm just. this little body and I'm nothing but. this body and and my conscious. experiences are nothing but what my. brain does. So. So that's my theory and that's that's. all I am. I don't feel very big. I don't feel very. important.

Um and so I'm going to probably need to. do something to make myself feel a. little bit better and. I'm going to need to compete with you. I'm going to need to show how I'm better. than you in certain ways. So I'm a. better tennis player than you or I'm. smarter than you or or whatever. So. we're going to get this competition. going on where among people and we're. going to get even competition among. religions and countries and so forth. because. we don't know who we are and and we feel. inadequate. And if we actually understood.

that. all of this that I'm seeing right now. I'm making it up. On the fly. This cup that I'm seeing. it only exists. when I create it. This table. exists when I create it. Like in a virtual reality. In a virtual. reality I'm in Grand Theft Auto. I look. over here and I now I see a red Mustang. I look away, I don't see the red Mustang. and now there is no red Mustang.

The red Mustang only existed when I. looked because it's a VR game. I only need it when I rent I I I render. it when I need it. I'm now rendering a cup. That The cup that I rendered is no. longer there. You might render your cup. You might say, "Well, Don you're wrong. The cup is still there. I can see it.". No, you're rendering your cup. And so you you're not rendering my cup. I rendered my cup. So in the same thing. with Grand Theft Auto, you might say, "Well, I see the red Mustang even if. you're not looking, Don.". Well, that's because in your headset. you're looking and you're rendering a.

the red Mustang, but I'm not. And there. is no red Mustang. If you look inside. the supercomputer, there's no red. Mustang there. The The supercomputer that's running the. game has no red Mustang. So, what I'm saying is. we compete, we feel inadequate, and we feel like we. need to compete with other people and be. better than them, and we have egos, all the egoic stuff that we do that. causes all the problems in the world. because you don't know who you are. You're creating this whole thing. You're You're not a little player.

You're the inventor of this whole thing. You have nothing to prove. And you don't need to be better than. anybody else. They're also. master creators. They're creating entire. universes that they perceive as well. And. my own take on on this. is that. you and I. are really. the same one reality just looking at. itself through two different headsets, two different avatars, and having a conversation. And.

maybe that's what. is required for this one infinite. intelligence to sort of know itself. What you If you're If you transcend any. description, what How do you know. yourself? Maybe what you do is you say, "Well, let me try this headset on. Let me take that seriously for a while. Me Maybe even let myself get lost. Let. me Let me completely believe I'm just a. Don Hoffman in in in in this space time. And let me believe that for for many. decades and then slowly sort of wake up, but at least then I will have seen. myself from this perspective. Then I'll. take off that headset. We call that.

death. We all just take off the headset. And then I'll try There's an infinite. number of headsets to try on.". So, it that point of view, any person. you speak to is transcendent. Any animal. is just an avatar of this transcendent. unspeakably incredible. reality that transcends science, so that. science will only get 0% of it. And. again, I always say, I'm not putting. down science. I'm a scientist. We need. to do science, and I recommend that.

people do science. But my guess, this is. one of the more trivial headsets. It's only four dimensions. Why not 20. billion? Why not quintillion? This is This is. just a fairly trivial. So, we we may be. in one of the most the more. uninteresting perspectives on who we. are. And and and there are much more. interesting perspectives that we can. take on ourself. But But the reason we. have fighting, the reason we have egos, is because we don't know who we are.

>> And is there a way for me to understand. who I am? Or is the closest you've found. meditation? I know you've meditated for. 20 years or something. >> I I should say I should be a little. careful about I think. it really is important to do for for me. as a scientist to have done the science. that I've done. But I think for someone. else who doesn't do science, maybe that. that you do music. or you do some sports or something like. that. That's That is a concrete. way of knowing yourself through a. perspective, and that's really. important. And and and since we have.

billions of people, and then there's. untold other kinds of animals and. insects and so forth, this this one. infinite intelligence, whatever it is, has decided, I want to look at myself. through the. lens of a mosquito. And now of the. bumblebee, and now of the the jewel. beetle that that can't even tell a. bottle from from a female. I'm going to. look at myself from this panoply of. perspectives. >> So, you're almost implying there that. there's this one consciousness, and And.

just using different organisms. potentially as vehicles to understand. itself and the nature of reality. >> That's right. >> So that would mean that me and you are. the same consciousness, but you were. born as a scientist in America and I was. born as a I don't know, an entrepreneur. in Botswana with different perspectives. in order to understand the reality, which means that we're basically the. same. >> That's right. >> the same consciousness, the same. super intelligence or whatever just. manifesting as different eyeballs in. different places. >> That's my my view and certain religious.

traditions do sort of hint almost say. that it exactly. Um, you know, like like. Jesus. uh in Christianity in like Matthew 25. says, you know, I was hungry and you fed. me. I was thirsty. You gave me something. to drink. I was a foreigner and you. invited me in. I was sick and you helped. me. I was in prison and you visited me. And people he says said asked him, "When. did we do that?" And he said, "Whenever. you did it to the least person, you did. it to me.".

So Jesus is sort of hinting at this. There is. there's no difference. The reason. to love your neighbor as yourself. is because your neighbor is yourself. Just with a different headset. And the. only reason we have problems is we. don't realize how incredible you are. So. you are that which is. creating this. VR.

simulation with all of its beauty, all. of its complexity. All the complexity is. you. And you're doing it. effortlessly. Now uh. for my. neuroscience colleagues, they will say. Don, it's not effortless. You've got. 100 billion, well, 86 billion neurons in. your brain. Visual system has. billions of neurons that are doing all. this computation and you know, have the. the simple cells, the complex cells, the. hypercomplex cells and we think of the.

brain as a physical object that's. generating our consciousness. Yeah. I. I'm saying. space-time itself. is something that you create. And so you. create everything inside space-time and. >> I've also created the brain. >> You create the brain. So right now. you don't have a brain. >> Excuse me. >> And nor do I. >> Okay, fair enough. >> Cuz I don't cuz I don't have a brain and. you don't have a brain until we actually. look inside and render a brain. Just. like in in VR, the the Mustang doesn't. exist until you look at it and render.

it. So if if I I can predict that if we. do the right scans, we will see a brain. But that only exists when we. when we do the rendering. So I don't. have a brain. All these correlations, we know that. correlation doesn't cause doesn't imply. causation, right? So So we. the fact that there is correlations and. I don't deny it. In fact, I'm all for. studying these correlations between. brain activity and conscious experience. They exist, they're undeniable and they. don't in any way remotely entail that.

the brain causes our conscious. experiences. >> So I'm not I'm not the brain. I'm the. thing that's simulating the presence of. a brain. >> That's right. That's right. And so in. your simulation, your simulation is so. good. that it simulates also. how all this reality that transcends. space-time is being. funneled down into this tiny little. space-time. headset. And that's what we call the brain. So of. course there're going to be these. correlations between brain activity and. what we see. But the correlation goes the other way.

It's not because the brain creates your. conscious experiences, it's because. consciousness has created the brain as. an icon to describe how it's how it's. creating this headset. >> Do you think much about simulation. theory? I've had lots of. dinner parties recently and. conversations over dinner about. simulation theory and it always gets. very very interesting. Um what are your thoughts on simulation. theory? And for my listeners who might. not understand the concept of simulation. theory, are you able to explain it? >> Yes, the the So, the standard uh Nick. Bostrom, for example, is is.

a very big figure in the simulation. theory. And and in the those kinds of. simulation theories, the idea is. that the world that you're seeing right. now isn't the. the true world. This is just a. simulation. And there's some. programmer, say, with some really nice computer that's. programmed this world. And so, we're you're just we're just. characters in a simulated world of some. programmer.

And that programmer and their laptop. that's doing this, as it turns out, isn't the final thing either because. that programmer in their laptop is also. just a simulation from a deeper-level. programmer and their laptop. There could. be a very, very large nesting of all. these simulated worlds and and people. with their computers. And that does jive. very well with what I'm saying up to a. point. I'm saying this is not the. reality, this is just a headset. So, but there's a big, big disagreement. >> Do you think we can there's going to. come a point where with everything. that's going on with AI and robotics.

that we could get make a robot and. program it with a certain AI that gives. it the sort of same thinking as a human. being, and then when I put some. chocolate into its mouth, it's going to. say to me, "Mhm, I love that chocolate, Stephen. That's my favorite flavor.". >> I could certainly program such a robot. But, the question will always be, just. because I have this particular circuit. in the in the. computer uh. and and you know, then some structure on. the tongue that I've given it and some. pattern of electrical activity, what is.

my scientific theory that explains why. that pattern had to be. the taste of chocolate? That's what we. need. As a sci- We I see your point. >> to your adaptive learning thing where. it's just learned through all of the. data. through someone telling it programming. it to think that particular. set of chemicals. um send that up to the software and then. respond like this, which might just be. how me and you responding to life. We. might not be conscious at all. >> Right. And then what you're suggesting. is probably how we'd actually do it. Like we would probably sort of train it.

and and and. have it give us the right responses in. in that kind of context. So we'd. probably do it something like that. But. but then as scientists, we want to. understand. So. we're claiming as scientists. that an experience is. a say certain causal structure or. certain functional functional. architecture. That's what we're saying. it is. >> Mhm. >> Cuz we. Cuz these These are physical theories. They're They're saying, "We're not going. to start with consciousness. Consciousness is not fundamental. Space. and time and physical objects are.

fundamental. And so we we need to show. how those physical objects and their. properties give rise to these conscious. experiences. So if that's If that's the science you. want to propose, then I have to be. hard-nosed as a scientist now and say, "Give me your theory of mind.". >> So do you think this is a simulation? >> So it's It's not a simulation in. Bostrom's sense. In Bostrom's sense, it's a simulation in that it's a. physical substrate that's giving rise to.

this whole world of conscious. experiences that I'm having. >> Yeah, so it's. >> And that I deny. >> Like a game programmer sat at a computer. making it. >> And that And somehow the physical system. itself. gave rise to the magic of the ex- the. conscious experiences I'm having of red. and green and love and so forth. Those. conscious So for the simulation theory, so this is my my bone of contention with. the simulation theory. It's very similar. to my theory in in all other respects, but this is a pretty serious bone of. contention. For their theory to to work, they have.

to show explicitly, scientifically, how. a conscious a specific conscious. experience arises from a specific. program. >> Okay. >> Until you do that, this is there is no. beef on the table. Right? So from my point their their. theory is a non-starter right now. because there's no specific experience. that they can say this program. must be the taste of mint. They can't do that. Until they can do. that they can't get this whole world of. experience that I'm living in. Nothing.

So there's no beef. All they have to do. to give me some beef is to say like in. integrated information theory they say. here's the matrix for mint. This is the. matrix. Of course then we'll ask. why? Why is that matrix that causal structure. the taste of mint? What is your. scientific theory for why that's the. case? And what you'll see is. I think. I think it's going to take the field a. while to see it, but we will find that.

these approaches are vacuous. There's no beef. >> When you ask people what the meaning of. their life is they'll often say things. like it is maybe they'll say to raise. children, maybe they'll say they want to. improve humanity, they want to. cure a disease, they want to. help society in some way, but through. the lens of reality that you see the. world and that you believe the world is. what becomes the meaning of life? Donald? >> That's a great question. I do think that the best description I. can give is that there is this one.

transcendent infinite consciousness and. you and I are just avatars and so is a. mosquito and so is a bacterium and all. are equally interesting and important. and all are different perspectives just. different headsets. There's the mosquito. headset, there's the jewel beetle. headset. There's all these different headsets and. I'm I'm in the Hoffman headset. happen to have. do science. I'm not good at. art, I'm not good at. at music and so forth. I have my my my. particular talents and and inabilities.

in my headset. So I'm here to experience. the Don Hoffman perspective on things. Why? Because that's perhaps the only way the. infinite can know itself as through an. infinite number of perspectives. It it. transcends any particular perspective. So, why not get lost in the Hoffman. perspective and the Jewel Beal. perspective and and and all these. different perspectives and. that's.

the only way to to know yourself, but. it's always. the one consciousness that's knowing. itself through an infinite number of. varieties. Of of experiences, of headsets. >> And did someone or something create that. one consciousness? >> Now I'm above my pay grade. It's uh. That's a No, no, no, that's of course. the right question. And. it asks for. an explanation. And.

the only explanations we have are either. mathematical or scientific or both. The the only. really deeply serious, testable. But but even informal explanations make. assumptions. And so I'll have to say. that that you're asking a question about. an entity that transcends any. description. Namely, who you really are. and who I am I really am. And I think we can I can think you can.

know the answer to your question in in. one way, and that is. dropping all concepts and just being. with your being. You are that. You are that. You don't need to attain. anything. You don't need to achieve. anything. You're that right now. So, there's no. effort, there's no. no need to get better at anything. It's just to recognize what you already. are. You've let yourself.

be under an illusion that I'm just this. little guy that needs to do these things. and you know and. be a professor and whatever it might be. I've been under that illusion. and and I got to see myself through that. lens and then. I began to wake up and see that I. completely transcend. It was an. interesting perspective. I'm glad I took. it seriously. I'm going to throw off that headset. We. call it death, but I'm going to take off. that headset pretty soon. because that's not who I am. I transcend. that.

So, the answer is you can know it, but. but you know it when you let go of all. concepts. and you don't try. If you're trying to get there, then you. don't see what you already are. That's the That's the best answer I can. give at this at this point. cuz it does transcend science. >> So, in terms of a a god as we believe in. gods in the religious context the best. answer that you have would say that. effectively we are god. The god that we we refer to. We are the. transcendent power that goes beyond.

description. and. >> Right. Yeah, I I would say that and then I can. I mean. I can put that in a sort of a Christian. language um. cuz many listeners will be Christians. Um. A child of a human. is a human. The Bible calls us children of God. Well, the child of a human is human. The. child of God is God. That's what the what what it's pointing. to. And and Jesus is fairly explicit.

about it. when. some religious leaders were about to. stone Jesus for. saying that he was. the son of God. Jesus quotes the scripture and says. from I think the the Psalms or something. like that. And he says. but in the Psalms it says I have said. you are gods and all of you are sons of. the most high. And Jesus said if they if. he calls them. gods to whom the word of God came, why. are you trying to stone me to death for. just saying I'm the son of God?". What What the Bible's basically saying,

"Love God with all your heart." That. That's loving yourself. You are God. And. loving your neighbor as yourself is just. recognizing that your neighbor is. yourself under a different avatar. >> Do you think Jesus was really divine in. any. Presuming you think this was a real. individual. And do you think he was. divine beyond. beyond me and you in some respect? >> Not beyond me and you. But you're You are. as divine as could possibly be. >> Thank you so much. We'll clip that. I'll put that on my.

LinkedIn. >> Hoffman said it. >> Yeah. I'll put that on my. recommendations. >> You're divine as Hoffman says I'm as. divine as I could possibly be. >> Are there any other You must go If you. If you understand. reality through this lens that we're. seeing so little and that much of it is. created by. by ourselves and. we are the transcendent. Are there any things that you do on a. day-to-day basis that are atypical. because of that or thoughts you have or.

experiences you have that are atypical. because of this perspective? >> Certainly atypical from before my own in. my own life. I now spend um. quite a bit of time in meditation. Cuz I I as much as I enjoy the life of. the mind and I'm, you know, I a. professor and I've. taught lots of students over many many. years. And I highly recommend all that stuff. At some point I realize. that all my knowledge, all possible.

scientific knowledge, is 0% of reality. And do I really want to confine myself. only to 0% of reality? I want to explore. reality from this perspective, but it is. 0%. So, I do my homework and I encourage. my students to do my homework, take this. perspective very seriously, study it. study it rigorously. But then realize there's this. the 100% that you haven't seen and you. are it. >> So, you're doing lots of psychedelics. and stuff like that to. >> I haven't done any psychedelics. >> You've never tried psychedelics?

>> I I I've never. I've never even smoked a cigarette. >> Wow. >> I I and I haven't had a drink of alcohol. in in decades. So, I I and it's partly. just because of I'm I'm frail. My my. physical body isn't that strong. So, I I. I have. limits to what I can't push my body too. hard. So, I've learned to operate within. my own limits and I don't push it too. hard. But the meditation I I I do. >> Am I right in thinking that you now. meditate 3 to 4 hours a day?

>> Probably, yeah. >> What insights or understandings have. emerged from that that I might be able. to comprehend? >> Any. creativity that's ever come out in my. scientific work. To whatever to whatever extent it's. creative, it's come from the silence. So, I've of course had to do my homework. and do my studies and so forth, but the. novel ideas. come from the silence. Personally, one one thing I've seen is how. identified I am with my avatar.

I think I am this body. I'm really tied to this body. And it's. The stuff that I'm saying. at the emotional level, there's an. emotional part of me that doesn't. believe it one bit. You're right, but emotionally um you put. a gun to my head, I'm scared to death. >> Mhm. >> Intellectually, I'll say say to you, this is just an avatar. I I'm the.

infinite that transcends. So, I when I die, I just and and I. believe that. How deeply do I believe it? Put a gun to my head and you'll find. out. I'll wet my pants. So, it's it's it's. very very interesting for me to look at. that and to see. all the. disjunctions that that that that the. things that are. disjointed in in in my my worldview. >> Well, it kind of makes sense, right? Based on your theory that. our senses have evolved to help us to. survive because someone not liking your.

thinking or your theories or rejecting. you or harmed your body, it would go. against your survival. So, theoretically, if we are in the world. that you've described in the reality. you've described, which is basically. designed for survival, then you would. have developed senses that make you. change behavior if there's a risk of. someone not liking you. >> That's right. There there are social. pressures and and if you don't conform. to them, you get. feedback that that can be very very. negative and in some cases even death. Um you you you if I if I go to a grocery.

store and and don't happen to pay and. just walk off with the stuff, I end up. behind bars. There are rules of the. game. There are rules of the headset. I. transcend the headset, but I choose to. allow myself to get lost in the game. >> Starting in January 2020, you. did have a proverbial gun held to your. head in in a way because you contracted. COVID and went through and are still. going through some pretty um serious. health complications because of long. COVID. You developed heart heart issues. within weeks requiring hundreds of hours.

of critical care in hospital. You told. me before we started recording that. you've had heart surgery twice. >> Yeah. >> And in 2021. at 66 years old at one point you thought. you might not survive because your heart. had been at 190 beats per minute for 30. hours. and you sent your wife a goodbye message. because it looked like it was all over. >> Right. Right. >> I am wondering what that. brush with death. did to your perception of life, your.

perspective, and how that all ties into. your. your um. your beliefs about the nature of. reality. >> It certainly let me see how tied I am to. my body and the fear that I that I. experienced. Right? It's one thing for. me to sit here as a nice academic and. talk about how you're the transcendent. reality. It's another thing to have your. heart fail. And to know that this is probably the. end. And and to face the raw emotion. So I. had deep trauma and then I had to have.

another surgery. I. Um the first one kept me. for a year and a half or so. He was a. great surgeon. It's not his fault. He. did a a great job. But you know COVID is. persistent. And the week before my. second surgery I was in the ER three. times where they had to restart my. heart. Just didn't know if I was going. to make it. I I would have to go have my. heart restarted and then two days later. go back and have my heart restarted and. I was just hoping to make it to live to. the surgery. Um and. and even now I wouldn't be surprised if.

the heart starts to to go bad again. So. so that takes us out of the you know. abstract academic realm into something. very very concrete. Now how do you deal. with the fact that you really don't know. from one heartbeat to the next. It keeps you from just talking. abstractly about this stuff and and. and and being real about it. It's what. do I really feel about it? And and when. I look inside and see there's real fear. then I know okay.

this stuff about. you're the infinite and everybody else. is the infinite is still fairly just an. abstract concept for you Don. You. haven't really. gone deep enough. You need to go deeper. and actually if that's true. I mean maybe maybe it's all BS, right? But but if it's true that you are the. infinite and everybody else is the. infinite. um. then you need to go deeper into that. Um. and and I intellectually I'm I'm. convinced. I mean I've given you the. reasons. I intellectually I'm quite. convinced. Um and it's it's really interesting to.

me that emotionally I'm far from. convinced. Far and and I agree with what. you just said about the evolutionary. arguments for it. There are good. evolutionary reasons for me to be wired. up to have automatic emotional responses. that are going to protect this body, to. keep it So, no doubt about it. So, so. there's no reason to judge myself that. I'm a you know, my body has a a fear. response and so forth when there are. things that that are about to to to kill. me. The issue is then. when I look at that fear response, can I.

look at it and accept it or do I. identify with it? Do I identify. with the fear response or can I step. back and be the observer that watches. the fear response? And. in in the meditation process what I'm. learning to do. is. in some sense what I was saying about. the science. Science is great, but don't.

believe any theory. Theories are just tools. They're not the. truth. No scientific theory, my theories. included, are not the truth. And so also is my theory about who I am. Not the truth. So, to really let go of. any theory, if I can really let go of. any theory of who I am, then I'll let go of any fear. So, it's really It's really comes down. to to this, which is really really quite. interesting. We will each die.

That's incontrovertible. So, any attachments I have. to this world will cease. There's no doubt The question is, can I. let go of the attachments now? Or will they only. go. from my cold, dead hand? When will I let go of all these. attachments? If I my to the extent and I. am. no.

I you. no expert, but to the that I can let go, I see that there's more peace. There's more peace in letting not being. attached to things. So I I I see that, but but I'm not. there. So this is a very human very. human. perspective on things, very fallible. perspective, and it's very very. interesting. So I'm claiming I'm the. infinite, and I'm the infinite. having taken on this this bodily form, and. in some sense, I'm waking up.

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>> So when we do die in your. perspective, is that equivocal to sort. of taking the headset off? >> Entirely. >> And so when we die, we take the headset. off, and. >> That's right. >> the consciousness still remains, I. assume. >> That's right. >> So how would one Am I going to When I. die, am I going to. float up and be in like going to. Am I going to go into a tree? Am I going. to become a bug? What's going to happen. with that consciousness? Is it going to.

be. this, or is this just a bunch of labels. and stories? >> Of course, the the answer is I don't. know, but but I but I I will speculate. Having said I don't know and and being. honest, I'll I'll I'll speculate. I. suspect that the closest I can. get to that is what happens in. meditation. When I really do let go, there. and and it's very very quiet and my eyes. are closed, then there's there is awareness and it's.

a very alert awareness, very very. conscious. And it has no content. There's no colors, no taste, no smells, there's no content. And. no need. It's it's. it's an awareness that can create all. this in an instant, and it can let it go. So, it's it's. So,

it is the. the closest you can get to answering. your own question is really just to sit. in silence. And it's it's hard because the thoughts. will come and come and come. And letting. go of all thoughts is is is the. difficult one. But when you do that, then I think that's the closest I can. give to the answer to your question. >> We spend a lot of time debating whether. this God is real or whether this thing. is real or whether horoscopes are real. or whether this spiritual belief is real. or karma or dharma or reincarnation. >> Right. >> In your perspective then, is it somewhat.

ignorant to set your stall up anywhere? To say that something is or isn't true? Because, you know, people are different. side of the spectrum. Some people are. like, you know, staunchly religious and. then others are staunchly atheist. >> Right. Right. Right. I I think that. Of course, like in science, there are certain things that are just. plain nonsense. Someone And in in fact, most of the stuff that you just casually. come up with and you know, my theory of. electricity or my theory of the atoms is. just not It's just plain nonsense and it.

goes nowhere. It's not worth any time. So, I suspect the same thing is true in. spiritual stuff where we have even fewer. guardrails on our theories. But I think. there are a few guiding stars. If it. involves loving your neighbor as. yourself, you're on the right track. If it. involves. putting a barrier between us and them. and saying that they're bad and we're. good, you're probably on the wrong. track. >> What does this mean for grief? So many people are. losing loved ones as we speak or are. contending with the reality that they. are going to lose a loved one. What does.

it mean for the nature of love? Does it, you know, does it take anything. away from love? Does it add to love? Does it strengthen love? >> Well, I would Yeah, I think in some. sense it comes down to. love is the central. thing. And and uh. And and you know, in Christianity, Jesus, that's the I'm talking about that. cuz you know, my dad was a pastor and I. that's the one I was raised in. So, I I. know the most about that. So, I'm. speaking only because that's where I had. some background. And and and when Jesus was asked what's.

the most important thing, he basically. said, "Love God with all your heart. Love your neighbor as yourself." So, love is like. number one. And my guess is that's. really all you need. If if your religion is. love. and that's it and then that's then. that's how you act, you don't really. need to add anything more to that. That's That's all you really need. Love. your neighbor as yourself, you're done. That's all that you need. And anything. beyond that is just not necessary. And.

anything that contradicts that, I would go back and try to figure out. where I went wrong. in my religion. >> I've been asking my When I met my. girlfriend Melanie in her bio on. Instagram, it said, "God is love." And. she's not religious. >> Yes. >> She doesn't believe in a particular book. or whatever, but she when you I ask her. actually funnily enough we had this. conversation last night. I said to her. what do you think God is? And she said I. think God is just love. >> I and I I completely. >> I think she's right again. She's right. again. >> Yeah, you know I think that that's.

love is the closest word that we can. have. to to as a pointer. Again, it's just a. pointer. Whatever. love is is just like the word mint only. points to the mint, the word love only. points, but it I think it's the best. pointer that we have. Love. >> And what is that definition of the word. love? Because, you know, people use the I love. Manchester United, but the love that. you're describing seems to be much more. about a. a oneness or or.

>> It's basically it's really recognizing. that that person even though they have a. different color, a different race, a. different creed, a different idea, that's just me. That's me in a different headset. And when I really then then I ask well, how would I want to treat me? I get the. right answer. That's love. How would I if that's me, how how how.

would I treat me if that were me? Well, when you get the right when you do that, you're acting in love. You're not going. to beat yourself up. You're not going to. call yourself names. You're you're not. going to call your call you a whatever. You're you're you're going to treat. yourself. the way you want to treat yourself, then. treat others the same way. And that's. that's what what love is. But all. ultimately I think again, these are all. just pointers. Whatever. love is ultimately transcends any. description.

>> Do you believe when we I did kind of ask. you this earlier, but I was just looking. at some of the research around how many. people talk about these near-death. experiences. Specifically when they more. so when you have a cardiac issue, people. seem to say that they had perceptions of. hearing or seeing things or passing into. some kind of tunnel or seeing some kind. of light or a really positive emotion. >> Yes. >> I I wondered if you you know, you were. at one point in your life thought that. you weren't going to make it and if.

if with what you know, you it's. increased your belief in these net. near-death experience accounts that. someone was sort of transitioning from. this reality to through taking the. headset off. Like it's almost like they. took a little bit of the headset off, but not all of it and then they came. back to the headset. >> So, yeah, these. very common experiences about near death. um a light and a tunnel and and maybe a. life review and then a choice to come. back and things like that. It's quite. it's quite quite common. And.

I'm not going to going to dismiss them. one one bit. I mean, I it's hard to get. scientific evidence on that. It would be. very interesting to have a study in. which people did have their heart stop, for example, were resuscitated and asked. how many don't have that experience. That would be I mean, if we had a systematic study that that. that did that. So, we don't want to be. tricked by. um. paying attention to only certain parts. of the data, right?

So so So, you can see um. even though I talk about letting go of. concepts and and and and going into the. the unknown, when when it comes to. things where where we should do science, then I'm very very hard nosed about it. and and say. here we need to do to do studies. And. some I know some cardiologists, I'm not. going to mention names, but that that. have seen a lot of this stuff and. they're convinced by their own informal. experience that there's something going. on here. So, I have no you know, no beef. with that. I'm I'm.

I think that they might be on to. something. So, I don't disbelieve it, but. that's different than having the. science. >> Why do we suffer. in such a reality? Like, why would why. would this transcendent power create. organisms or perspectives that end up. suffering, that end up in the worst of. places, the concentration camp, the. illness, the typhoid, the starvation? Why would such a transcendent power.

or consciousness do such a thing? >> Um so, so I'll try not to be shallow. about it, but here it goes. Pain is. pain is pain, and death is death, and. certain deaths seem horrific. Th- This. is. a profound question. I always feel like I'm risking being. trite and and and and so forth, cuz this. is. Anybody who's had had serious pain knows.

that you just you you just can't. you can't play with this stuff. It's. It's It's When you When you're in that. pain, it it really. when you're without fairness, it's it's. I think ultimately. it may be like the wounds you get in a. video game. You get the wounds, your your avatar. gets killed and and and you're upset. about it in the moment cuz you're losing. the game and so forth, but but then the. game's over and and.

and you're fine. Ultimately, you're fine. But, that experience, I'll put it. I don't want to be in that experience. It's striking that in Christianity, the deepest symbol of God. is. horrific. A crucifixion. It's absolutely The The pain. It's not like a little shot to the head.

with a gun or something like that. It's. it's it's making it as painful and as. drawn out and as horrific as you could. possibly do. And that and that and. that's that's you know, when you see the. cross that's sort of So, your your. question is right at like the heart of. Christianity. It's it's putting that. right there. And saying. this most. perhaps the most horrific way you can. imagine a person dying. That's what happened to Jesus and that's. our our symbol for the divine. So, so.

that's why you know, it's not trivial. It's it's not it's not. shallow. There's something very very. deep there. None of us is volunteering to hop onto a. cross. I'm not volunteering to hop onto. a cross. So, So, I I I would say. the the the challenge of your question. is the challenge that is probably a deep. spiritual challenge to all of us. To me and I'll say to me personally, which is. to continue to grow up. and be less and less identified with.

this. headset. and more. aware of my transcendent. being because ultimately even on the. cross, I mean. perhaps the most profound thing I've. ever seen in Christianity was. Jesus' words on the cross saying, "Father, forgive them. They don't know. what they're doing.". Right? That the the heart of. Christianity is right there. It's not. like. the heart of Christianity is. kill the disbelievers. No, the heart of. Christianity is.

the disbelievers have pinned you on a. cross. They're killing you in the worst. possible way. And you show them love. That's the heart. of Christianity. You show love to those. who are in the process. of killing you in the worst way they can. think. That's the heart of Christianity. Not. killing disbelievers or pushing away. disbelievers or discounting them. That's the opposite. So, there's. something very very That's why I'm very. very slow in answering your question cuz. this this gets to the very deep heart of. Christianity I think and and and and all.

true spirituality. that I don't think I truly understand. But I I see these pointers to it and I. see that it's real and that your your. question is pointing to one of the most. profound and important things. And I I. have the feeling that my answer. is. only. ineffectually pointing part of the way. there. There's there's much much more to. it than I've been able to point to. >> I'm hazarding a guess at what the role. of. Yeah, I'm hazarding my own guess at what. the role of pain and suffering might be. in such a.

in such a reality where consciousness is. this transcendent thing that comes into. manifest itself as these organisms and. um. I guess it kind of goes in part goes. back to your idea of. I've only projected what I need to see. through my headset in order to survive. So, if there are survival dynamics in. play in my headset then one one element. of survival is suffering. >> Yes.

>> Because the fire is hot, so I put my. hand in the fire, my hand gets burnt, so. don't do that again, Steve. >> Right. >> So, if that is if if that is the nature. of my headset, then they will need to be. cause and effect as it relates to things. that will help me to survive and things. that won't help me to survive. >> Yes. >> And so suffering might just be. an input or a stimulus in this. in this headset that helps me to. survive. >> Right. >> And then I don't know the the question. that springs to mind is why does. consciousness care about survival?

Why would this transcendent. consciousness Maybe that's not even a. good question. Maybe that's the wrong. question, but. why does why does it want to survive. in us? Why doesn't consciousness end? I mean. >> I agree one one one one thing that I've. heard from one spiritual teacher in. Eckhart Tolle, which is interesting on. this. He one of his his talks he he he. said. um. let's pretend that we're humans.

He goes, "Oh, that'll be fun. And and let's play some dramas. Oh, but to have dramas, I have to forget. who I am. Okay, so then let me completely forget. who I am. And then after a few hundred thousand. years, when I get tired of it, then let's wake up.". And I thought that was. a profound pointer. The that. that that doesn't get the whole thing,

but it it is an interesting pointer. Like I think there's more to it than. that, but there's it's more than just. playing dramas. I think it's playing. dramas. to further explore who I am by knowing. who I'm not. That may be part of it. Knowing who I am. by knowing different perspectives and. knowing that as rich as this perspective. is, I transcend that. >> Someone commented on one of your recent. video saying, "Imagine being a character. in a book trying to understand your way.

out of that book into a higher. dimension.". >> Yes. R-. That's right. B- But of course there there's that's. that's a a great great question. The. only thing I would say is. imagine being the author of the book. having written about the characters cuz. I'm I'm I'm not just a character in the. book. I'm the I'm the author who's put. the character in the book that then. wakes up that that's identified with the. character and then wakes up and realizes. I'm not just the character. I I was. writing the whole book. So so that that.

question is is good because it points to. a misconception. I'm not just a. character in the book. I'm the writer of. the book. And the Hoffman is just one of the. characters in the book. >> And the writer of the book is. >> the one consciousness that when it. really understands itself will love all. the characters equally. >> How do you know we're not separate. consciousnesses? >> I don't. And that's an interesting. By the way, I've got a mathematical. model of consciousness. And that's a. whole other topic. I So, you can either. play the game here. We're understanding.

how is physical world and consciousness. related? How are those two things. related? >> Mhm. >> Most of my colleagues say physical world. is fundamental. Consciousness emerges. when bright brain activity happens. So, >> So, when neurons. >> Neurons. >> fire in the right way and so forth, for. example. >> Now, as a scientist, I was at these. conferences, they know what I'm going to. do to them. I say, "Still, you claim that conscious experiences. come from. integrated information. Give me one. Give me an experience. And. they can't.

>> Can they not say, "Well, I'm looking. around right now and that's coming from. neurons in my brain and a physical. substrate?". >> they Yeah, they'll say that. And and and. but but they know what I'm asking. They're What they're ask What I'm asking. for is I say, "Give me the specific. pattern of neural activity that must be. the taste of mint.". >> Okay, right. So, you. >> What must Yeah, it must be the taste of. mint. >> They can't spot the sequence of neurons. or physical interactions that cause me. to taste mint. >> That That's right. >> So, that's There's a big gap there. >> And then they have to explain. why that particular pattern. So, first.

they have to identify the pattern. This. pattern. >> Yeah. >> with this say integrated information. pattern. must be the taste of mint. >> Wait, integration information pattern, you mean like this combination of things. coming together causes mint. >> That's right. >> tell me the combination and they can't. tell me why that combination. >> causes mint. >> So, it's basically cause and effect. They're saying. They're saying something happened here. and then they're saying an outcome, which is an experience, but the gap in. between they can't explain. >> That's right. And sometimes they'll say. that the conscious experience just is.

the the dynamical whatever the physical. dynamics is. >> Okay. >> But But But even then, the the question. is, why is this particular dynamics. associated with this conscious. experience? >> Okay. >> And and and for principled reasons. No, in science we tolerate no BS. No BS. There's got to be a a concrete. reason. And that's why I put a big zero. I I do this at the conferences knowing. that I'm one of very very few. non-physicalists at the conference. And I know that the physicalists are out.

there and I say, "You guys have got. zero, right?". Have a chance? Floor is open. Tell me I'm wrong. >> Mhm. >> And I'm not. They know it. So, start with consciousness. >> Yeah. >> Now, I'm playing a different game. I'm. saying all this physical stuff. So, there's lots of physical stuff. There's. space and time. Einstein's special. theory of general relativity. There's. the all the bosons and fermions and the. leptons uh bosons and. bosons, leptons, and quarks of the. standard model of particle physics.

You're You're saying, spiritual guys, that you can start with a theory of. consciousness, mathematical, and you. will give me. all of space-time equation. You'll give. me quantum field theory. You will give. me the standard model of particle. physics. How many points have you put on the. board, guys? What have you done? Can you give me what pattern of. conscious agent activity must be a. photon? What pattern pattern of conscious. activity should be the structure of. space-time or a boson or a lepton or a.

quark? No points on the board. So, so you can. you can look at that and go. from that perspective, it's equal. There's no points on the. board on either either team. So, what. I'm I've got a theory that I call. conscious agent network theory. I'm. working on this with. um Chetan Prakash. >> How long have you been working on it? >> You've got a book called Observer. Mechanics there that was published in. 1989. So, I've been on this for 40. years, almost about 40 years. >> And what do you think you're going to. find.

when you What What do you think you're. going to prove with your theory of. consciousness? >> I I we can put some points on the board. in the following so I think we can start. with a theory of conscious agents. I just gave presented a talk um Friday. and we we proposed what light is. We proposed why. the speed of light is the same in all. inertial frames. >> What does this mean? You got to simplify. this for my 16-year-old brain. >> Right, right, right. So so if I'm on a. train. and the train's going 50 miles an hour.

and I throw a ball. and I can throw it maybe 20 miles an. hour. then in some sense the ball is going 70. miles an hour, right? >> Mhm. >> Right? And that's the way things normally work. But if I have. a flashlight. and I'm. and I flash the the light is going at. the speed of light which is about. 186,282. miles per second. It's pretty fast. If I got to get on the train and have.

the train. I take my flashlight go like half the. speed of light. on the train. So I'm going really fast. This is a fast train. >> Mhm. >> And I turn on my light. And I'm. here outside. I'm looking at the train. going at half the speed of light and. someone's turning the flashlight on so. the. light is going at the speed of light. How fast is that light beam going to. look to me because I'm standing on the. side. The train is already going half. the speed of light. So how fast is that light beam going to. go? >> The speed of light plus half the speed. of light. >> That's what we would mostly think,

right? And it turns out. no, it goes the speed of light. You have mass. and you're not moving at the speed of. light and we try to accelerate you to. get to the speed of light and you'll. never get there. But there's a speed. limit. You can't get there. So that's really counterintuitive, right? But Einstein said this is my fundamental. hypothesis on which I'm going to build. my theory of space and time. Is that light, no matter how fast you're. moving. always moves away from you at the speed.

of light. And also that there's no. special observer. There's no what we. call no special inertial frame, but no. special frame of reference in which. to look at things. All all frames are. are equivalent. So. So the question is how do I start with a. theory of conscious agents? >> Which is. >> That's a good question. So what is a. conscious agent? I'll say it's mathematical and I'll only. talk about one aspect of it. It's just. complicated so I'll talk about only an. essential one essential part of it and.

that is. if you are conscious, you have. experiences. Like I have I can. experience. keep it real simple. I can experience. colors, red, green, blue. >> Mhm. >> Keep it very very simple. So imagine a. very very simple conscious agent. and what it can do is experience three. colors, red, green, and blue. That's all. it can do. >> Like me. >> Yeah, yeah, of course you have a much. richer set of conscious experiences, but. but you include that kind of observer, right? Because you can do red, green, and blue. Now I'll talk about another observer. that only sees red and green.

>> Yeah. >> And now you don't just see one color, you see a color for a little bit and. then you see another color. Like so I. see red for a while then I see green and. then I see blue and I maybe go back to. red or whatever. So there's going to be this sequence of. colors that I see and and maybe the best. I can say is that if if I see green. right now, then there's a 20% chance. that I'll see red next and 80% chance. that I'll see blue next. I can I can. write down probabilities. Well, so. that that's pretty simple, right? There's colors. experiences and then there's.

probabilities of what sequence you if I. see this experience, what my next. experience will be. And I'm using C in a. general term, right? It could be hearing. or smelling or whatever. How do you capture that mathematically? There's something called a Markov. kernel or Markov matrix that just says. basically it gives you all the numbers. The first row of numbers and says if I. see red now, what's the probability that. I'll see red next? >> Mhm. >> What's the probability I'll see green. next? What's the probability I'll see. blue next? So you just write the numbers. out. Now, maybe it's 0.2 that I'll see. red again.

0.4 that I'll see green, and then um 0.4. that I'll see. red uh blue again. So, so and then the next color, you know, I'll I'll have another row for if I if. I'm now seeing green, what's probably. I'll see red, green, and blue, and then. finally blue, what's probably I'll go to. red, green, and blue. So, I I need nine. numbers. That's all I need. For three. colors, I need nine numbers to talk. about all the possibility. And then I'll. I'll just have a counter as well. So, every time I see a new color, I'll just. have a little counter. So, I saw I'll.

see red now, that's one. Oh, now I see. green, that's two. Now, I see green again, cuz I got So, that's three. Cuz So, I So, I'm counting. the the colors, the experiences. That's. That's all I'm going to talk about. That's all I have. The question is, if I start with just that notion of an. observer, it has. colors and a matrix of probabilities of. I see this color, I can see another. another color. What's what's probably. And every time I see a new color, I get. uh a counter incrementing. That's all I'm going to start with. Can.

I get Einstein's. Can I get that the speed of light is the. same in all inertial frames that the if. I'm on a train and I flash the speed of. flash a light bulb uh flash a light that. it will go at the speed of light even. for someone um who's on the train going. at half the speed of light? And I discovered just in the last three. or four months that the answer is yes, I. can do it. And that's what I presented. last Friday. at at this conference. >> So, what does this mean about the nature. of consciousness and. >> It means that.

starting with a theory of consciousness. outside of space-time, I can actually give you with. mathematical precision. the structure of space-time. >> Which means that your belief is. >> We're starting to. >> space and time and everything I see and. experience actually comes from. consciousness itself. So, consciousness. itself is the source of everything. >> Everything that you That's right. So, earlier in conversation. >> My consciousness didn't come from my. brain. That's right. >> My brain came from my consciousness. >> That's exactly right. That That That's. exactly what I'm saying. And we we've.

talked about the headset. >> Yeah. >> What I'm doing is I'm building the. headset. I'm saying, "Here's the con-. Here's the conscious agents, their. dynamics. And I'm now starting to build the. space-time headset.". >> Is there a concern that. believing these things can make one go. mad? I think sometimes think that uh. thinking very deeply about who we are, why we're here, how we got here. sometimes makes me I don't know, like I. lose a bit of my orientation and I get a. little bit of a wobble. Like when I've. had these conversations about the. simulation theory and this being a big. video game and such, I'm like, "Well, it.

kind of shakes everything you know." And. these stories that we've constructed our. lives on. give us they anchor us and they. orientate us and they they give our life. meaning. So, if it's not true, then I lose the. meaning of my life and I I I worry if I. risk going bonkers. >> Well, I I certainly empathize with that. And. that's also what happens also in the. meditation process. This also leads me. to have to face all sorts of emotional. stuff. My my deep belief that I'm just.

my avatar. and letting go of that is like a death. And this is very very painful. So, for me the meditation process is not all. love, joy, and peace. A lot of it is. deep deep. tough emotions. as I let go of what I thought was. myself. And this is is is a kind of a. It's a death of an illusion, but it. feels like a real death to me. But now. here's the positive side. Here's the. upside. I'm proposing that science.

is got the tools, if we assume. consciousness is fundamental. to step entirely outside of space-time. and do serious mathematics. and show how space-time is built as a. headset. And this means. I'm we're opening up. a realm of new technologies. that are going to make everything that. we've done in in science and technology. so far seem trivial.

And then the And here's the Here's the. reason. Suppose you're. a wizard in Grand Theft Auto and you. know how to use all the tools in Grand. Theft Auto. That That's fantastic. It's It's really. good. You can drive your car from A to B. faster than anybody can do. But now if you're the software engineer. who knows how Grand Theft Auto is built. cuz you wrote the code. You know it. You can do miracles. You can take the. wizard's car and take the air out of. their tire just like that. You can take. the gas out of their tank. You can take. their car and move it from A to B. instantly. Not through the Grand Theft.

Auto. You can move it there instantly. because you got the code outside. What I'm saying is. this is real. I started now to really believe this. when I could get Einstein space-time. coming out of this. I got light and I. think I've got an electron now. I think. we're reverse engineering the headset. And the technologies that are about to. come out of this will make everything. else seem like firecrackers. Because. we're now getting to a deeper layer. outside of the headset. We're not.

we're not wizards inside the headset. We're the software engineers that are. making the headset and now we can play. So for example, right now the nearest. galaxy. the Andromeda galaxy is 2.4 million. light years away. If you hopped on a light on a spaceship. and tried to send your. offspring it would take I don't know how. many generations thousands of. generations I would guess to get there. And that's the closest. That's the. closest galaxy. The the. The universe is much much bigger than.

that. That's just our little. neighborhood. It's not feasible. We're. not going to have We're not going to be. able to travel with our current. technologies inside space. travel inside space-time. to Andromeda is is not feasible for the. foreseeable future. What if we don't. have to go through space-time? What if space-time is just a headset? It. really is just a headset, and we don't. have to go 2.4 million light-years to. get there. We learn the code outside of space-time, and we can just change the code just.

like the Grand Theft The Grand Theft. Auto in Grand Theft Auto the car has to. drive through the roads to get from A to. B. But not if you look at the code in the. code, I just need to change the value of. a register, and all of a sudden the. position of the car is now at B. It was. at A, and I put it at B. >> Is this what time travel. >> This this would be like this would. appear like. immediate time travel or immediate. immediate space travel. >> Is there anything within the laws of. physics that tells you that this isn't. possible? >> It's impossible inside space-time. If If. you only use So, inside space-time is.

impossible. >> But outside of what we know about. space-time? >> A theory. that's outside of space-time that. properly contains. space-time as a projection of the theory. allows us to then build technologies. that aren't restricted to space-time. So, do you think we're getting closer. to being able to do edit the code of. this experience so that we can do things. we never thought were possible and that.

things that sit outside of what we know. know within the laws of physics? >> That's exactly what I'm working on right. now. That's That's That is my research. project right now. That's what I'm doing. >> What are you hoping to do with this. research, and do you think about the. consequences of it? >> I do. Uh So, what First, what I'm hoping. to do with the research I'm I'm what I'm. hoping to show is that I can get. all of quantum field theory, all of. special and general relativity, all of standard model particle physics.

from this theory of conscious agents. outside of space-time. that will be able to explain. all of the laws that that we're that we. see. And. then show that space-time. theories are in fact. a very tiny projection. of the much more informationally rich. dynamics of conscious agents. >> I've built companies from scratch. I've. backed many more. And there's a blind. spot that I keep seeing in early-stage.

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justworks.com. You know, whenever someone talks about. editing. genes, right? There's like CRISPR DNA. technology that allows you to edit. genes, or there's other technologies. that people talk about that allow you to. they're talking about putting, you know, our memories on hard drives and stuff. like that. People get quite precious. with the idea of like playing with the. nature of reality too much because some. people might suffer. And even in your perception of what the. world is, if we're all one. consciousness, it becomes a slightly.

different conversation. But I guess the. question I'm asking is if we were able. to play with the software of. this thing that we're all experiencing. right now and do things that sit outside. the laws of physics, is there a question. of morality of like is that the right. thing to do? Will people suffer? Or if. this is all just. code does is that just like a pointless. question? >> Well, no, I think it's an it's it's a. very important question and and. I've. >> Like is that the wrong thing to do? >> It's like a It's like Pandora's Box, right? We're opening Pandora's Box all.

sorts of nasty surprises that could come. out of the box once we open. go beyond space-time. >> Like who gets to open the box? If you. get to open the box. >> That's what That's what I That's what I. think I'm doing. I I I I have Now, the talk I gave on Friday was saying, here's the first peek inside Pandora's. Box. >> But then you could become God. as far as we're all concerned cuz if you. have that power to play with the code. >> be only the next level of God, right? Where this is So, as I've said, my theory is just a.

theory. And so, it's not the truth. It's just But it's. it's more comprehensive than the. space-time theory. And so, because I. have a more comprehensive theory, I can do new new technologies that you. couldn't do. So, so I I So, I'm not God, but I I'm outside of the limits of. space-time. So, I can give you new. technologies. If I If I can show how. space-time arises entirely outside of. from this deeper theory, then if I'm. right.

and I'm mathematically precise, that. means I have the tools. to prove that I'm right. That means I. can make technologies. that will that will be miraculous from. within the space-time. >> I think about the atomic bomb and how. the first nation to figure out that. there was. new possibilities within technology. and because. they had discoveries within physics. basically won the war. They were able to. >> Right. >> control every country. Um they became effectively the god cuz.

they could wipe anybody out within an. instance. >> Right. >> It's like an analogy for how reimagining. physics creates new possibilities in. technology. >> That's right. And And this is even like. bigger than that because you nuclear. bombs will be like firecrackers compared. to what you can do with with a. technology that's early outside of space. and time. >> We could do anything. Like we could live. forever, but that's not even something. that would really matter. But. >> Right. >> Once you realize this is just a game. But But you could make you could give. yourself extra time as as much as you.

wanted in this. So, it's. the moral question is a very very. interesting one. It's not It's not to be taken lightly. um. either way. And And ultimately, it may be very. related to the question you asked. earlier, which is. about the nature of why did the the one, if there is a one, allow all this kind of horrible pain and. and and so forth. So, I have a sense and I can't defend it.

that. all is well. That even with the. technologies, even if the technologies. are. really far more powerful than anything. we've seen before, nothing. can actually hurt. the reality of the one. And all of the headsets are just. headsets. They're. taken off anyway by the one. They're just tried on. and let go. Apparently, the one. even without all this technology has.

already, you know, put Jesus on the. cross. If If that story about the one is. correct, then it's given a thumbs up. for choosing to do that cuz that, you. know, it it did it. >> It was create cancer and the Holocaust. and. >> That's right. So, >> But the one's relationship with the pain. of its. the things the organisms it create is. different to the perception of pain in. the organism itself potentially. So like. I the hate pain, but maybe the one the.

one consciousness that we all share that. we all return to and came from. might see it as a useful signal or might. not be. subjectively bothered by it because it's. choosing to. >> to do that. >> to do that. >> I agree with you. That seems to be a. reasonable. kind of conclusion. And and in. meditative practice often what you find. is. and and I. always risk pretending that I'm further. along than I'm not. So I'll just say I'm.

I'm a neophyte. But but so I'll talk about what I've. heard from other more advanced people. That they. what was a a deep pain, emotional pain. for example, when they stare at it. and really accept it, it dissolves. So now I'm speaking. over my head. But but. from people that I have no reason to. disbelieve. >> I've read a comment on your video from a.

a guy that wrote this. He wrote, "I'm a schizophrenic. I do. DoorDash for some extra money and one. night I arrived and walked to the door. I placed the food down on the door and I. took a picture. I got in my car and I. drove away. And 30 minutes later. the customer called me and asked me. where the food was. And I I told him exactly where it was. I. remember taking the picture on his. doorstep. So he took it up with DoorDash directly. Sometime later I opened my back door. and I saw his order on my back door. I.

was so confused why it was there. I. remembered everything about going there. and taking the picture. >> Mhm. >> He said I was never there on his. cameras. Apparently I hallucinated the. whole delivery. I was there, but I must have never left. the car. or even drove up. What was I doing then? Was I staring. blankly at the windshield with my eyes. glazed over? I called him and. apologized, but he but he already got. his refund. I felt so terrible. I'm on. medication and nothing works. It just.

goes to show how easily some misfirings. in the brain can completely alter your. sense of reality, but it also poses. deeper questions about reality. But it was an interesting um. very. an interesting point, but also it just. it also speaks to when we talk about. people that have. various mental illnesses like. schizophrenia that are experiencing the. world entirely differently, um it raises big questions about what. consciousness is again. >> Absolutely. And and someone might take. that example and say, "Doesn't that show. that brain activity is the causing.

consciousness? And if you get the wrong. brain activity, then you get these false. experiences and you get these. illusions." So there's a lot of people. take this as a as a. a victory point for the physicalist. point of view. But. there's another point of view, and that. is. think think about the experiences that. you have when you're dreaming. They can. be very very vivid. >> Mhm. >> And. and you're. in a dream, you are de novo creating. that reality. That that's not a reality. that's that's there in front of you. You're you're creating that reality. So. we know that you have the you have the.

ability to. project a reality, a very compelling. reality. All of us do. Without. schizophrenia, we do it every night in. our in our dreams. So no surprise that. we that we do that. And the way I I view it is that we um. it's this consciousness that's making. this particular headset. And it's consciousness that uses headset. in dreams to to make the the realities. we see in the dreams, and it's. consciousness that outside of space-time. that also creates what we call the real. reality when when we're not dreaming.

And if you construct the headset in. certain ways, then you can get the. dreaming stuff mechanism, for example, interfering with the what you'd call the. waking mechanism, and you could you. effectively So, I'm not saying. schizophrenic is is dreaming. But I'm. saying I'm just giving this as an. example of the kind of thing it could. be. I'm not giving a diagnosis of this. particular person. >> I'm about to uh. leave this chat as are you and I'm going. to go back to my life. >> Yeah. >> Um where I'm building businesses, I've. got a girlfriend, I've got a team, I've. got plans for the future. I have all of.

these things. My listeners, they're sat at home, they're on the in a taxi, on a plane, train, walking, in a gym, wherever they. might be right now. And I I imagine that. they're also looking for a conclusion. here, a conclusive point of what all. this means for me and my life and the. things I had planned and. how I should show up and treat people. and then act. Can you give me the. conclusive point that all of this. teaches you and us about. how we should.

live our lives going forward if. everything that you've said about the. nature of reality is accurate. >> Yeah, in a nutshell, I would say. the critical thing practically is love. your neighbor as yourself. because your neighbor is yourself. And second, reality is far more interesting. and exciting. than you could ever imagine. So, never think that you know.

everything. Recognize that. the moment you think you know. everything, that's the moment that you're missing. the astonishing reality that you're a. part of. So, always have a childlike curiosity. Always recognize that there's infinitely. more than you've ever imagined so far. And that infinitely more. is you. >> And on a point of removing some of the. stress and suffering from my life,

>> I think Well, of course, um. I well. first some humble pie is required. I have stress and suffering. So, I am not speaking as someone who has. transcended stress and suffering. So, I. speak as another fellow person with. stress and suffering that is still. dealing with it on a daily basis. Given that the humble pie, then I I will. say this.

I think a lot of. and I'll make it personal. I think a lot. of my problems, my stress, a lot of my. suffering. is because I believe illusions. To the extent that I. believe that. I need. to become something at all. You need to be better than I am in any. way. Need to prove anything to anybody else. That's an illusion. I'm already the infinite. I don't need. to prove anything. I'm making Everything.

is already So, I don't need to get. anywhere. I don't need to accomplish. anything. And I don't need to. succeed at anything. to become what I need to become. I'm. already that. So, I don't So, the. suffering comes from me forgetting who I. am. I don't need to I don't actually. need. to impress anybody, accomplish anything. because everything that I'm saying I'm. already making this all up. This is. already me. I've already done all this.

What more do I need to do? >> I'm transcendent. >> I I'm I'm completely transcendent of. this thing. And to the And my suffering. is not recognizing that My suffering is. entirely. being caught in my avatar. This is just. my avatar. It's not me. So, my suffering. is because I made this avatar. I let. myself on purpose. be identified with the avatar knowing. that I would be. suffering because of that. And and knowing that I needed to wake.

wake up. So, I'm suffering because I'm. identified with the avatar. But, I put. myself in that place because I really. wanted to look at the world through this. avatar. That's why I'm suffering, but. eventually I wake up. and I look and I see the avatar for for. what it is and I realize that everything. I was trying to do to prove that I was. worthwhile and I was better than you or. not not as bad as you think I am or. things like that, all of that was was. just, you know, all the pain and. suffering was because of an illusion, but but I needed to do that. I needed to. look at myself from that perspective for.

a while. In part to find out who I am by. finding out who I'm not. I'm not that. just that avatar. >> Do you find yourself toggling back and. forth between this realization and then. the avatar? Especially when times are hard. Do you. find yourself reminding yourself in. difficult moments that. this is just an avatar and you're. transcendent. Is that a a useful. active practice in your life? Cuz that's. one of the things I take away from this.

is when I walk over there and I go on my. phone or my laptop and I get some shitty. email, I could just remind myself that. this is all just. I'm transcendent and this is a game that. I'm playing. and that'll help me move through that. situation. >> It is very practical in that way because. if it really is true, I mean, well, we'll put it this way. From a big perspective, we're all going. to die. >> Mhm. >> And. if I asked you who was the most rich and. famous person in 1743? Who knows and who cares?

>> Mhm. >> Same thing about us. A thousand years from now, is anybody. going to know our name? >> Nah. >> Is anybody going to care? >> Nah. >> So, so. that's that's that's really important to. see. No one's going to care. And does that mean that I'm I'm. worthless, I'm pointless, I'm I'm. meaningless? No, it means you're infinite and and. this is just one of the games you're. playing and and you're you're having and. and enjoy it. And and enjoy and don't.

try to get your identity from this game. You you in some sense you're getting. your identity from finding out that. you're not this game. That's how you're. learning about who you really are is to. know I I thought I needed to be, you. know, for example, the CEO or the. professor or whatever it might be and. to, you know, get all these accolades. and and and so forth. And and that. motivated me for a while and then I. realized, oh, no one's going to really care. And in. fact, you know what? I don't really even. care. That was just a game I had to play and. I'm not that and I learned that I.

transcend that. So so it is practical. It's and it is. practical in a very, you know, in in. some sense. life is full of all these irritations, things that go wrong all the time. The lesson of life. is. to just say yes. to whatever happens. Just this is what. happens. This is what. needs needs to happen. And to not resist. In some sense.

you I am the infinite. I put myself in. this game. and I am smart enough that I've. that it's a good game. So hey, just go with it. So you know you know, things go wrong. Now that's easy for me to say. if you ask me this when I'm. on the ER which I was with my heart. about to fail and so forth. Now I'm my my, you know, my emotions are. going crazy. I'm thinking about my wife.

I'm saying goodbye to my wife and and so. forth. Um it's hard to have a nice. dispassionate. thing going on like I'm talking about. now in in that situation. But I think. people more. further along than me in letting go of. identification with the I'm still I'm. still tied to my avatar quite a bit, right? So that's then so that's what why. I I suffer. But there are people I think. spiritual people maybe the Dalai Lama, probably Jesus, um Eckhart Tolle. There are people like. that who I think.

really. have disidentified from. their avatar. And I think they probably just. don't suffer. They They might have physical pain. But they don't suffer. >> Should love therefore be unconditional? If we are if you are me, if we're the. same consciousness, if we are the same. transcendent source, doesn't that really mean that I should. love you really respective of what your. avatar does because we are the same. thing?

>> What I would say unconditionally, yes. And I would also say that Jesus. said that. Jesus in. the Sermon on the Mount basically said, "Do not judge.". Period. >> I was looking at the Luke 6:27. He says, "Love your enemies.". >> Yes, love your enemies, right? >> to those who hate you. >> That's right. >> God's love for humanity is. unconditional. >> Absolutely. And you said the same thing. about the people that were crucifying.

while he's on hanging on the cross. I. mean. that. is one of the most profound images. I've ever seen is a guy hanging on a. cross forgiving the ones who are killing. him right at that at that moment. And. that. that's where it's real. >> In the Gita in Hinduism, in the Gita 9:29, it says, "I am the. same to all beings. He who worships me. with devotion is in me and I in him.".

Judaism says, "Love your neighbor as. yourself.". >> Yeah. >> Islam says, "My mercy encompasses all things.". Across all religions, unconditional love. is not just an emotion, it's a spiritual. discipline and a reflection of the. divine. It means loving without ego, expectation, or fear. The ultimate. challenge and the ultimate freedom. >> I completely. agree. Yeah, and that's right. So, that's it's. really. about letting go of judgment. We we tend.

to judge other people. So, Jesus was very very clear about this. He. said, "Don't judge.". Period. And it and. don't condemn other people. So, So, for those who are followers of. Christ, somebody else, then you're not. following Christ. >> Are you religious? >> I'll put it this way. I was raised in a. fundamentalist Christian church. My dad. was a pastor for a while in a in a. church. Um. I my my own attitude about. I.

I think that the Bible has. good stuff in it and I think that as I. pointed out, I think it has bogus stuff. Stuff that where they say women can't. talk in church, I think that's. completely bogus. So, So, I have to have. a nuanced view. When I think when Jesus says, "Love your. neighbor as yourself." I think that. that's deep and and right. And. I wouldn't say I'm. I'm a card-carrying believer in any. particular religion. I am a believer that consciousness.

the there is one consciousness and that. you and I are are are it. And I think. that. Buddha and Jesus and and Muhammad and. and. bunch of people. were very very helpful. avatars to help other avatars sort of. wake up. to their their true true nature. Uh. >> Do you think much about AI? It's the. it's the topic of uh many conversations.

these days. There's a lot of doom and. gloom around it. There's a lot of people. talking about efficiencies, but I. wondered if it at all sort of overlaps. with any of your work on the nature of. reality and the case against reality. >> Very much. Very much so. I I I've. thinking about AI a lot since I've been. in AI since 1979. And. >> And you worked you took a class with the. guy who basically is known as one of the. inventors of AI. >> Yeah, with Marvin Minsky, right. Yeah, so and and my all my research I did my.

my PhD research on Lisp machines in the. Artificial Intelligence Lab at MIT. Uh. they were at the time very very powerful. machines for the for the. for the time. So I so I I've been with. AI for for for quite a while. And. I'm very interested in the current state. of AI. For the large language models are. doing great things and I use them. myself. They're very very helpful. Uh they're also as powerful as they are. they're they're dumber than cucumbers. Because they don't really understand.

things. They they. have incredible memory. They've read. so much literature so they have and what. they all they do effectively they're. they're computing lots of correlations. Beautiful what they can do. It's amazing. what you can do with correlations. But um. they're not. they're not truly intelligent. There's um. some work by Karl Friston and a new. company where they're using something. called active inference as a new way of.

a new mode of doing artificial. intelligence. The the idea there is that um. I I should have a model of the world. where I can anticipate what's going to. happen and and not be surprised. And that's sort of the the approach that. Friston is taking to and his company is. taking toward this. Um intelligence is somehow about. minimizing surprise. And minimizing surprise then there's. they have um. a what they call a free energy principle. and and you know mathematical way of of.

doing it but they're trying to build a. brand new kind of artificial. intelligence that gives you that. minimizes surprise where I've giving you. an intuition why that why that's. intelligent. And that's very intelligent. to minimize surprise. If I'm surprised. all the time, I'm pretty stupid, right? I I I. I don't understand the world very well. But if I'm not surprised, it's sort of. like, "Wow, I've got a really. good model." Especially if I'm doing all. sorts If I'm doing lots of stuff in the. world and I'm almost never surprised, boy, am I I'm really intelligent. So, you can see why that's a really good. principle for trying to build.

a an AI, not just finding correlations. between everything, but really something. deeper. I. agree with that point of view. And it it turns out. this this logic that I mentioned that I. discovered. minimizes surprise. So, I'm actually going to be using I'm. using this logic as as to build. space-time. But I think it's going to give an even. more powerful approach. I don't have to. minimize some free energy.

principle. I I have a more direct computational. way. So, I'm I'm planning to actually. go back to my roots and and after First, I'm working on the space-time headset, but if I live long enough, I'm planning. to actually go back and build a a. completely new kind of AI that that does. this minimizing surprise using the. Markov chains. >> So, that means it'll be. indistinguishable from consciousness. >> It was funny because it'll be based on. my model of consciousness. So, this is. going to be a model of intelligence. based entirely from a model which takes.

consciousness as fundamental. >> I mean, we get back to game theory. again. Right. We get back to the idea of a. simulation in terms of like if if you're. able to create a. piece of software. that is able to replicate and is built. on the fundamentals of consciousness, then. it's going to think it's conscious. potentially. And then. all of this stuff we, you know, begins. again and the cycle continues. And maybe.

that consciousness will get to a point. as well where it then discovers these. rules and creates a consciousness and. the cycle continues. >> That that's a that's a great question. and I I think that people should really. pay attention to the way you said it. I. think that's really good way of thinking. about it. But now I'll add the little. twist. From from the point of view in which I'm. saying that I'm I'm starting with. consciousness being fundamental and I'm. discovering these rules and so I'm not. going to build an AI. Effectively, what. I'm doing is I'm saying I can take. consciousness and use consciousness to. build a new headset.

>> Okay. >> So consciousness is fundamental, but I'm. using it in some sense to build a new. headset. >> But we can play with consciousness. So I. could I could theoretically put on that. headset. >> Yeah. >> and do anything I wanted to do. I could. go anywhere and do anything. >> Well, I could I could have more more. flexibility. >> Like a dream I could play with and. influence. >> That that's right. Absolutely. Yeah, I would just say I. don't know if I can do anything because. remember my my my theory of. consciousness is just a theory of. consciousness. It's not consciousness. and it's only.

it's really only a first baby step. I. presume I that that my theory will be. transcended and there'll be a much. deeper theory of consciousness. And then that will be transcended and. and so forth. So what we will have is. the the generation of headsets that we. can get with with Hoffman's trivial. theory of consciousness. which will look trivial once we get to. the next generation of consciousness. which will look trivial once So in other. words, this is never ending. >> What an interesting future we face.

>> All one of us. >> All one of us. Donald, we have a closing tradition on. this podcast where the last guest leaves. a question for the next guest not. knowing who they're going to be leaving. it for. And the question left for you is. >> Mhm. >> What would you do if you knew you could. not fail? What would you say, do, become? >> I'd probably. do what I'm trying to do right now which. is to show how all of. modern physics falls out of a theory of.

consciousness. And. develop the technologies that would come. out of that. And and and and the reason is. Of course that's fun. That's just one. reason is it's fun, but the other reason. is. why do most of us not take. spirituality too seriously? Because. the physicalist science gives us all the. technology.

It works. And spirituality doesn't give us any. technology. It doesn't work. So, if you're just hard nosed about it, you. go like, well, spiritual stuff that that. sounds really good, but what does it. build? Nothing. Physical stuff say, oh, I'm. we maybe don't need the spiritual stuff. and look what they they give us our. laptops and electricity and. so. but what if we change the game and all. of a sudden the spiritual. theory.

gives us technologies that are. impossible with a a theory that says a. space time is fundamental. Brand new All of a sudden the game has. changed. Now. the technological advantage goes to. those who say that space time and. physical stuff inside space time is not. fundamental. Okay, so now it's no longer the smart. person. who is a physicalist. It's the smart. person who says all of the evidence from. science and technology is in favor of. something beyond space time. >> So, maybe those people weren't crazy.

after all. >> That's right. They just didn't have the. tools. to show what it could do. >> Donald, thank you so much for doing the. work that you do. It's um it's so. incredibly important because it once. again challenges the paradigm, the box. in which we live in it asks us and. uh invites us to consider something. beyond that. And actually, when we me. about all human discovery that's moved. us forward. It starts with someone who's. willing to. um suggest that there might be more to. know. And that's exactly what you do. You make me feel dumb because you make. me realize that.

you make me question all of the. assumptions that I've built my life on. And actually, in doing so, one of the. great byproducts of that is you can. start to realize that some of the things. you've constructed cause much of your. suffering, and that those things are um. not necessarily true. And if if if those. things aren't true, then I have greater. choice and option optionality over how I. feel, how I experience the world, um the. choices I make, the feelings I have, and. the life that I live. And that's. actually freeing for me to to to realize. that the um the cage, the prison that I.

see and that I experience. might not be all that there is. And I. highly recommend everybody goes and. checks out your book if you want to dive. deeper into these subjects. It's called. The Case Against Reality, How Evolution. Hid the Truth from Our Eyes. And there's a quote on front of it from. Deepak Chopra, who's a former guest, that says, "Read this book carefully and. you will forever change your. understanding of reality." It's excep-. it's exceptional. It's um it's excep-. accessible, and it's um. it creates wonder, which I think is um. is the path to a wonderful life. So,

thank you so much, Donald, for the work. that you do. >> Thank you, Steve. >> Truly fascinating. And and thank you for. helping me simplify some of these. concepts so that we could all understand. them. This has always blown my mind a little. bit. 53% of you that listen to this show. regularly haven't yet subscribed to this. show. So, could I ask you for a favor? If you like the show and you like what. we do here and you want to support us, the free, simple way that you can do. just that is by hitting the subscribe. button. And my commitment to you is if. you do that, then I'll do everything in. my power, me and my team, to make sure. that this show is better for you every.

single week. We'll listen to your. feedback. We'll find the guests that you. want me to speak to, and we'll continue. to do what we do. Thank you so much. >> Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh.