This Statistically Is The Best Age To Get Married So You Don't Get A Divorce!

Some of the studies I was looking at. shows that if you get married after 30, each additional year of age increases. your chance of divorce by 5%. I couldn't figure out why. Oh, I think. there are several reasons for this. So, first of all Lori Gottlieb. renowned psychotherapist. bestselling author. couples counselor. who's helped thousands of people find or. save their relationships. People use the. first date as I'm supposed to feel this. one thing or else forget it and people. will come into therapy and say, "I. didn't feel like butterflies, so I'm not.

going to go out with him again." People. said they wouldn't go on a second date. with somebody because he ordered tap. water. He must be really cheap. There. was one where somebody said, "Oh, he did. this impression from Austin Powers.". Yeah, baby. He's just nervous. He was. trying to make you laugh. What about he asks to split the bill? Would that be an ick? If he doesn't pay, that would be a huge. ick for me. Really? But it's really. important to understand why, which is. interesting. Now your partner has to be. your best friend, have the same. interests, has to rock my world in bed.

or someone who's really ambitious, but. also really family oriented. No one. human could possibly do that. If you. look at what are the most important. things that would predict whether a. relationship is going to last. is really. important. are very important. And then emotional. is really important. What does that mean? It means. You went to therapy because of. heartbreak. Yes. How do we navigate through that dark. cloud? One strategy that might be. helpful is.

It's absolutely crazy to me that so many. of you have decided to watch our show um. and so many of you have decided to. subscribe to our show. We now have 5. million subscribers on YouTube, which is. a number that I just can't comprehend. and it's a dream that I absolutely never. could have had. We started The Diary of. a CEO just over 3 years ago now and in. my wildest expectations, we might have. had 100,000 subscribers by now. So, you. can imagine how shocked I am. that so many of you have chosen to tune. into these conversations every week um.

and spend some time with us. So, thank. you. And I made a deal with you. I made. a deal that if you subscribe to this. show, that we would continue to raise. the bar and in 2024. we're going to raise the bar like never. before. I've been working for the last 9. months on a surprise for all of you that. have subscribed to this show and I'm. very excited to deliver that for you. The production's going to change. We're. going to go even further with our guests. and we're going to tell even more global. stories. So, as always, if you. appreciate what we're doing here, the. simple free favor I'll ask from you is.

to hit the subscribe button. Let's get. on with the episode. [Music]. Lori, if you had to summarize what it is. you have done for people over the last. couple of decades, how would you. summarize that? I would say that I help. people to learn what gets in their way. from living the life that they want to. live. And what departments of their life.

do you tend to focus on? All of them. They're all so important, but I think. it's really about people's relationships. and I mean relationship to self. What is. going on with the way that I talk to. myself, the way that I make decisions. and choices, the way that I hold myself. back, relationships with friends, with. romantic partners, with family members, with um professional colleagues, all of. it. And of all of those subcategories, what are the categories within that that. people come to you advice for.

most often through your podcast, through. your articles, through your therapy. work? Well, it's interesting because. it's usually somebody coming in and. saying, "I really want something in my. life to change." And what they want to. change is someone else. Right? And so, I think what they're. surprised to find is that yes, there are. difficult people in their lives. You. know, we like to say that before. diagnosing someone with depression, make. sure they aren't surrounded by. So, um you know, there are really difficult.

people out there. But the question is, where's your agency? What are the. choices that you're making? Um are you. setting boundaries with these people? Are you adding to the tension between. the two of you because you're kind of in. a dance and you're doing some old. pattern that you're in with this person. So, I think it's really important to. become self-aware and say, "What am I. doing in the world that gets me closer. to the way that I want to live and what. am I doing in the world that keeps me. from getting there?".

And since you got into this line of work. and since your sort of education in this. area began, what changes have you seen in the types. of questions and the types of issues. that are being presented to you in a. sort of clinical setting or online or. through your DMs, etc.? I think most. people are really seeking connection of. some sort that they don't have in their. lives. And there's a sense of being alone, whether it's I'm the only person who. feels this way, I'm so ashamed, I don't. know why I'm so anxious or I'm so. depressed or it's a feeling of I feel.

like I'm I have all these sort of. friends, you know, kind of peripherally. or friends in the world, if you look at. their social media, but they don't. really have someone that they could call. and say, "I really need to talk to you. about this." Who's this person you can. confide in? You know, there are these. studies that have been done where they. they looked at, you know, several. decades ago, how many people said, "I. have someone close that I can call." And. most people had at least someone,

usually a few people. Now most people. have zero people. They have said zero, "I have nobody that I can call and. confide in in that deep way." Does that. mean that there's a greater pressure now. put on our romantic partners to meet. more of our needs? Yes, absolutely. And. that's one of the things that I think. you see in dating, especially with. younger generations, because it used to. be that your community was there to meet. all different kinds of needs. So, now. it's, you know, people like to say,

"Well, my partner is my best friend.". Well, but you also have a best friend. Most people also have a best friend, right? So, so what happened or maybe. they don't anymore because of what we've. been talking about. So, the question is. now your partner has to be your best. friend where they are there to meet all. of your emotional needs. Whereas before. you had, you know, I could talk to this. friend about this and I had this friend. that my partner doesn't like this hobby, but I get to go. My partner doesn't like. move these kinds of movies, but I could. go to these kinds of movies with this. person or, you know, whatever it is. And.

now it's like we have to kind of have. the same interests and we have to be. able to talk about all the same things. and we have to, you know, he has to rock. my world in bed or she has to rock my. world in bed or they have to um read my. mind. Right? And so, no one human could. possibly do that. There is no human who. can do that. And so, what happens is we. think something's wrong with this. relationship if I'm not getting that. from this person. And what are the other. sort of big picture items that are. making it harder for us to be satisfied. romantically these days? I think again.

the sort of expectations of what it. means to be loved. I think that when. people really put everything into this. other person, they aren't getting the. the kinds of emotional nourishment that. they would be getting from the larger. community. So, whether it's extended. family that used to be around, most. people a lot of people don't even live. where their fam where they grew up. anymore. So, they're kind of putting. down roots somewhere else. Um they are. kind of, you know, they they have to. form like a whole new group of people.

There's something to be said for the. people who knew you when you were young. There's something about that about. really being known because I think in. relationship, people really want to know. and be known. I remember I had a couple. come in and this was so striking to me. where um she said to her husband, "You. know what three words I really want to. hear?" And he said, "I love you." And. she said, "No, I understand you." And. that was so profound that how deep a.

yearning we all have to want to be. understood. And I think that that comes. from, you know, you have history with. people and you have shared experiences. with people, but we're moving around so. much nowadays that we don't have that. history or those shared experiences and. people didn't know us at different times. in our lives. When you're truly known, oh, you went through this transformation. or you went through this difficult time. or I remember that fun time we had when. we were 16 years old.

And so, a lot of people just don't have. those kind of deeper connections. anymore. What is it about being. understood that. we want? Like what is it what is the. fundamental there? Is it does it make us. feel psychologically safer or what what. is it? Oh, it makes us less lonely. Okay. If. you feel like you're the only one who. understands what's going on for you, you're all alone. And that's why it's so interesting, you. know, having the Dear Therapists podcast. or having the column, where most people.

write in and think that they are alone. and yet I have thousands of people. writing in the same exact thing. So, they're not alone, but they think that. they're alone. They feel no one. understands or no one would understand. And I see this more with men also than. with women, although both I get that, but it it's interesting because I think. that with with men, you know, often. they'll come into therapy. Men get into. therapy sort of one of two ways. They. either come in because they're in a. couple and there's a problem in the. relationship and so they come into. therapy or they come in kind of.

secretively. Like, you know, no one. knows I'm here. And they'll say, "I've. never told anyone this before." And the. thing that they tell you is something. that women will talk about quite easily. And it's not that men are less deep than. women. It's that women feel more. comfortable to over lunch with a friend. say something like that. And when women. come in and they say, "I've never told. anyone this before." They'll say, "Except for my mother, my sister, my. best friend." So, they've told a few.

people. Maybe one person, maybe two, maybe three. And so, I think it's interesting because. I think that, um, you know, men can be. particularly lonely because they really. don't have the place to kind of connect. in the way that women are more. culturally. acceptable to do so. Women sometimes. have an expectation that their partner. will open up in the same way that their. best friends will open up. Yeah. And. many men fall short of that expectation.

I, you know, I think there's often a. narrative that women want a man to kind. of sit down and talk about his problems. and open up and listen and all those. kinds of things that a woman might do. with her best friends, but men for some. reason tend to struggle with that. Yeah. Well, they they women want that and they. don't want that. So, women say they want. that and they think that they truly mean. it when they say they want that. But in. couples therapy, I'll I'll see something. like a woman will come in and and, you. know, she'll say that exact thing to her.

partner, you know, I really want you to. open up. I feel like we're not. connecting. I want you to be more. vulnerable with me. I want you to tell. me what's going on inside. And if he does, and let's say he starts. crying, tears up, or really starts crying, she. inevitably will have this reaction of, "I don't feel safe when he doesn't open. up to me because I don't feel connected. to him, but I don't feel safe when he's. that vulnerable with me either because.

there's something just some cultural. programming in her around what it's like. to be with a man who's crying or a man. who is vulnerable. And so, I think. that's that's really problematic and I. think that makes it, you know, kind of. harder for men to feel like, "Well, I. have a safe space to open up." Like it. takes a lot for a man to really feel. like, "Oh, this is something that I want. to share." Whereas I think women just. feel a lot more free to do that with. their partners. I saw a video yesterday. that I'm actually going to play to you. cuz I saved it.

ahead of this conversation. It caused a. lot of discussion online on Twitter. Okay. So, this is the video, okay? Yeah. I just want somebody who's so obsessed. with the Bible and so obsessed with. Jesus and who understands and like you. said, like who can teach us things. Yeah. Like I want my dude to speak in. tongues and have tattoos. I just want a. good man. Like a nice classic man. I. want somebody who will literally protect. me and beat someone's butt if they need. to, but also will sit there with.

compassion and just like a good-hearted. man. That's what a true man is. There. has to be that dichotomy. It's the same. thing with feminine women, too. There's. always a dichotomy. But there's a. softness and a strength. And for men, being masculine is being able to beat. someone's butt, you know, maybe not. physically, but like being a protector. and like doing what he needs to do to. protect his family, but then also being. soft enough to like be able to tend to. his wife's feelings and like to be able. That's hilarious. But that's that's, you.

know, people would say, "Well, I'm not. like that.". But yet, when you actually talk to. people about when you when they're. dating and you're talking to them about. what's going on and why they're not. going out on another date with somebody. or, you know, why they won't even go on. a first date with somebody, um, those. are the kinds of things that's an. exaggerated version of the kinds of. things that you will hear. Which is what. kind of things? Like they're they're. they're not 6'4", they're not strong and. soft at the same time. Yeah, yeah, it's you know, they have to. be this and this, these two, you know,

they want someone who's, you know, "I. want someone who's really, really. ambitious, but also really. family-oriented. I want someone Right?". The these kinds of things that are hard. to find both of those in equal measure. in the same person. Someone who's. extremely ambitious is probably going to. spend a lot of time at work. You know, I. want some, you know, someone So, I'm. 5'2" and it would be, you know, someone. like me saying, you know, "And and he. has to be over 6' Really?". You know, just all all of these kinds of. things I So, in in my book Marry Him, I. I wrote a whole book about this because.

I was looking at how do we date today? And what are the expectations that we. have? And, you know, the the publisher. called it Marry Him, The Case for. Settling for Mr. Good Enough. It's not. about settling at all. It's actually. about having higher standards, not lower. standards, but having higher standards. about the things that actually matter. So, I looked at all of the data and I. talked to uh, behavioral economists and. sociologists and historians and I talked. to, um, you know, people therapists who.

specialize in divorce, who specialize in. couples therapy. And it was really. interesting to hear, um, to see like how. expectations have changed over time. And. then also. to see what it is that actually matters. to have a happy, fulfilling, long-lasting relationship and how when. we're dating, we're not even looking at. those qualities. And so, for example, the character. qualities. If you look at what are the. most important things that would predict. whether a relationship is going to last,

what qualities do you want in a partner? Flexibility is really important. What. does that mean? So, flexibility meaning. you're not a really rigid person. People. who are really rigid, it has to be this. way. I need it this way. Um, I expect. this of you, right? You know, on social. media, we might call that, uh, boundaries. right now. And boundaries are really. important. Don't get me wrong. Healthy. boundaries are very important, but. rigidity is when you say that, "Well,

I'm just very boundary," but you're. actually really have room for the person. to also be them. And that you are a separate person from. the person that you're with. And often. times, it's hard for people to see that. because they're so focused on what I. need without thinking about what does. this relationship need? And what does. the other person need, too? Emotional generosity. is really important that you give. someone the benefit of the doubt, that. you're not bringing your your old wounds.

into the relationship and projecting. them onto your partner. Um, so I would. call emotional maturity or emotional. stability. So many times people overlook. that when they're dating. So, that looks. like, you know, someone comes into. therapy and they say, "I don't. understand why, you know, I I I love him. so much and I don't understand why he. didn't call when he said he would or I. don't understand why he canceled.". And I will say, "What do you love. exactly? Do you Is this. how you want your life to go? To always. be on edge? To always wonder? To be with.

someone who's unreliable? Who doesn't do. what they say they were going to do? What what part of this do you love? Oh, but he's so funny and attractive and, you know, um, he's so smart. You like. qualities about him, but you don't like. the way he is with you in relationship.". And so, people need to have higher. standards about the character qualities, things that are important to them like. loyalty, reliability, emotional. stability,

um, again, emotional generosity. Can they be. supportive of you when things are going. well for you? Uh, on that point of. expectations and how expectations are. evolving, I I found some stats. I think. some of them are very much inspired by. your first book, um, Marry Him. One of them is that 80% of women want to. date a man over 6' tall when only 15% of. men are over 6' tall. Yes, that's that's. in the book. Um, I found some other studies. Uh, an eHarmony study found that 40% of. single people have deal breakers that.

are associated with physical appearance. And 50% of singles expect their partner. to be their best friend, soulmate, and. to fulfill all of their emotional needs. That was a study done by match.com. Um, and then the other ones that I found. quite interesting were. you talk about in the book how this sort. of generational shift in expectations. and where that's come from. But in, like. my my granddad's generation or even my. dad's generation, I would assume they wouldn't have had. the same set of impossible expectations.

I would assume. Is that Is that what you. found in your research? I think. everybody wants to feel that really deep. connection with their partner. And so, I. think that the way that society has. improved is that we are not just. marrying for sort of practicality, but. we are also marrying because we. genuinely enjoy being with this person. and want to go through life with this. person. But I think what we're losing a. little bit is do our values align? Like. the practical part matters. So, I think. the pendulum swung in the other.

direction, went from almost pretty much. all practical Mhm. to now it's all like, "Is this person my soulmate and do they. move me?" And I think you have to have. both. I'm really attracted to this. person's essence. And what I mean by. essence is you're, you know, most people. will say, this is I I I I don't know. where the study came from, but I. remember reading this study, that most. people will say that the person that. they are that they chose to spend their. lives with is not the most attractive. person they ever dated.

And I think that a lot of people say, "Well, I wouldn't want my partner to. think that." But you're a you're more. attracted to your partner holistically. That's why they chose you. That's why. you chose them. That's why you're. together. So, it's not just about is. this the person who was the most, you. know, the hottest person you've ever. dated. And so, I think we really have to. think about holistically who do we want. to be with. And that's what kind of. trips us up because the practical side. matters. Do you have similar ideas about.

the kind of life you want to live? Do. you have similar ideas about, um, how if. you want to have kids or if you don't. want to have kids and how many you might. want to have, where you want to live, um, what kinds of what kind of things. you want to do in your lives. Um, what. matters to you, who you are in the. world, um, political beliefs. Often. people say, "Well, that doesn't matter. as much. Um I think when you have very. different views, not necessarily about. like what political party you're with, but more about how you see the world, if.

you see the world very, very. differently, that can cause a lot of. problems in the relationship later on. Not cuz you're fighting about the world, but because those differences will show. up in the way you treat each other. I. hear you saying all of that, and I have. to say I agree, and I think everyone. would really agree because it makes. perfect sense. But in reality, I was thinking about if I turn to some. of my friends that are really struggling. with dating. right now, and I said all of that to. them, um I don't think any of it would work. because they are so hardwired.

to. to be. in search of this like perfect person. You know, when I when I speak to some of. my friends who are single and they're. say they're over 35, they've really like. never been in a relationship before. This The things that they say. as reasons for why they're not giving. this person a chance are so unbelievably. petty. Like I have one friend, and she. knows who she is. She's a really good. friend of mine. She's been a good friend. of mine for over a decade. Shout out to. your friend. Yeah. But I was I was on her profile. once, and she told me that the reason.

she wasn't going to give this guy a. chance on this dating app was because in. the back of the picture that he his. display picture, he had boxes on top of. his cupboard. Mhm. And she was like, oh. god, he's he puts boxes on top of his. cupboard like. And she So that's why she didn't give. him a chance. So here's here's the. thing. What happens is people look at. dating profiles when they're going. through the apps, and I think, you know, men and women tend to do this a little. bit differently. Men are like, am I. attracted to this person? Swipe. Which also doesn't necessarily work out.

for them. Like they're not really. looking for who do I want to be with? And women do the opposite. They look at. it at, you know, they look at all the. pictures, they'll read everything that. the person wrote as if, do I want to. marry this person potentially or not? As. opposed to, do I want to spend 45. minutes having coffee with this person? Mhm. That's really different. And also, on a first date, it's the same mentality. where a lot of people think, oh, you. know, like people will come in to. therapy, or even friends will say,

you know, I went on this date. I had a. good time. It was fun. I just I don't know. I didn't feel. chemistry. I didn't feel like. butterflies. I didn't I wasn't didn't. feel that that what I feel like I should. feel. So, I'm not going to go out with. him again. And I'll say, well, why don't you just. go spend, you know, another hour with. this person and get to know this person. and see if something develops. No, no, no, no, no, right? And so, but it's like. you had a good time. You did think you.

know, they said, I did think he was. attractive, but I didn't feel chemistry. So it's interesting because there's a. study in Marry Him where. it was a longitudinal study, and it. followed people from the time that they. met their partner, like that first date, all the way through. They checked in. with them every 5 years for I think 20. years. And what happened was they found. that the people who were very happy. together. had kind of revisionist history about. what it was like on their first date. So.

people who were really happily married. said, oh yeah, I knew immediately. I. felt immediate chemistry with this. person. I knew this person was the one. But if you go back to what they reported. at the time, often they reported at the. time, yeah, nice person, not sure. Okay? So so but they've changed the. story. They really truly believe that. they felt something different, but we. have data saying, no, you didn't. On the. other hand, if people did not last, if. people are divorced, that kind of thing, um they will say, oh, I was never.

attracted to the person, or I knew there. were red flags in the beginning, but. that's not what they reported at the. time. At the time, they reported, wow, this person's amazing. So it's really. interesting that people use the first. date as as like, I'm supposed to feel. this one thing, or else forget it. When. people who are very, very happy. together, totally in love, totally. attracted to each other, often didn't. feel those sparks on the first one, two, three dates. You know, maybe they were. even friends for a while. But people don't give each other the.

chance to get to know the other person, or to let the other person get to know. you. And I think that because the apps. give this illusion of um so many people. are juggling multiple people at a time. So someone will go on a date with. someone, and then they'll say, yeah, that was fine. Uh not, you know, maybe it was like a seven. So, nah. And then they they're like, I have. another date tomorrow. Or they just. they're leaving the date and they're. walking to their car and they're swiping. on the apps. already.

Because they have the illusion that. there's so many people out there, but if. you just keep juggling people, you're. never going to get to know anybody and. to know if that person is someone that. you want to be with. So what would you say to a serial dater. then? You would say to. go on the second date even if the person. is a seven? Or is there Cuz I know so I. know people that have gone to go on. hundreds of dates a year, and I think. statistically they must have met someone. that they would have been happy with. by now. Yeah, maybe. It depends if. they're making good choices about who. they go on dates with. So some people. will just go on dates to go on dates.

Other people, if they're being really, you know, if if they're saying, hey, this person seems like someone I would. want to be with, and that's who they. choose to go on a first date with, then. yes. But I would say the question you. ask yourself at the end of a first date. is, did I have a good time? The answer is. yes, I would go on a second date. Doesn't have to be I had a. life-changing, transformative, you know, I was Cupid's arrow shot me. No, it just, did I have a good time with. this person? Yeah, go on a second date.

See what happens the second time. Who has higher expectations typically, men or women? And who is most likely or. most willing to adjust their. expectations? Mhm. Um I think it really depends on the. person. And I think that the. expectations are higher in different. areas. I think for men, um the. expectations are very high around. physical appearance. And and I think for the younger. generation especially because they're. growing up on all of these thirst traps.

that are posted on social media, and. they're seeing all of these girls just. posting, you know, all of these really. provocative pictures that have been. filtered, that have been, you know, it. took them 30 shots to get that one shot. that they put up. And so when they see. people in real life and what they really. are like on a day-to-day basis, they. have these very unrealistic. expectations. And I think that's. different from in the past when you saw. many more people in real life than you.

do now, where you're seeing more people. online most of the time. And I think for. women, the expectations. are, you know, I think it's confused. with feminism. So feminism is great. I'm. a feminist. Um but I think that feminism. is not this person has to meet all of. these criteria that are not really. human. And I go through them in the. book. You know, the kinds of things that. people say, and I have all these surveys. in the book about the kinds of things. people say they're looking for and. they're not finding the right person.

And I talk about this study that Barry. Schwartz did. He wrote The Paradox of. Choice, and he looked at the difference. between maximizers and satisficers. And this applies to dating as much as. anything else. But, you know, the way it. doesn't apply the way that you can look. at it, the way he did in his study was, he said, look, if you go into a store. and you want to get some jam, and they. have 30 different varieties, most people. just leave because they can't choose. They're just they get they get anxious,

they don't know what to pick. It's not. like more is better. If you have two. different choices, it's easy. You say, oh, I like this one, and you're really. happy with it. The people who did choose. from the 30, they're less happy because. they they're trying to maximize, and. then when they taste it and they go home. with it, they think, oh, I wonder what. that other one would have tasted like. You know, because there were so many. choices. The person who picked from one. of the two is very happy with their. choice. So if you look at the kind of. dating analogy, it's like I I like to. use In the book, I talk about a sweater.

Say you want a sweater, and you know. exactly what you want. It needs to be. this material, so it's not itchy, this. color looks good on you, this is the. right size, this is the right price, this is the style you're looking for. You go into a store and you find it. The. satisficer will buy it, be really happy. that they found it, and really enjoy it. for a very long time. The maximizer will. say, oh, I found this, but while I'm at. the mall, I might as well just put this. one, you know, back on the on the shelf,

and I will go look at a few other stores. to see if I can find something that's. maybe a little like the color is a. little bit better, or the the price is. maybe there's something on sale, or. maybe there's something that's a. slightly different material, and they keep looking, and then they. find something that's maybe slightly. better in their mind, and they buy it, they're less happy with. it because then it took them all this. anxiety and energy to find it, and then. they find it, and they're always looking.

over their shoulder, well, maybe there's. another one, maybe there's a better one, maybe there's a different one. And the. next time they're walking and they pass. a store window, they think, oh, I should. have gotten that one. So maximizers. think that they're putting in all the. research to find the thing that's going. to make them happiest, but going through. that process makes them unhappy, not. only by going through that process, but. when they get the thing that they decide. on. So with dating, we want to be. satisficers, which means we have very. high standards. It's not like, oh, I'm. satisfied, that's enough. It's like,

you're satisfied because your standards. are very high, but you're not always. looking over your shoulder to wonder. what you're missing out on. You're not. always in this state of FOMO. Do you see. a gender difference between satisficers. and maximizers at all? Again, it depends. on the person. It really does. I mean, I. think that when you when when you look. at the surveys in Marry Him, women do. tend to be maximizers more than men. But, I think that I think that men do. have very high standards, but I think. that men are also like after they get. over the oh, I need to be with a.

supermodel and then they come back down. to earth and they say, "Oh, I need to be. with someone that I'm really attracted. to." which is different thing. They're much more holistic. Like, who do. They ask the right questions. Who do I. enjoy being with? And I think for women, it's there's so. many different things. There are, you. know, in Marry Him, I talk about the. things that people said they wouldn't go. on a second date with somebody over and. it was like, "He ordered tap water. instead of sparkling water. He must be. really cheap.". You know, these assumptions that people.

make. Like, when they came by and said, "Which kind of Which kind of water do. you want?" And maybe he's just. accommodating. Maybe he just said, "Tap. water's fine." Um or, you know, he wore. this he wore those kinds of uh shoes. with that kind of belt. He doesn't have. any fashion sense. There was one where somebody said, "Oh, he did this impression from Austin. Powers, this movie. He did this. impression and it was really. embarrassing and I I I was so cringey.". And it was like, he was just nervous. He. was on a first date and he was trying to. make you laugh. Why don't you go on a. second date and if he does something.

cringey on the second date, okay, then. you know. But, a lot of times on a first. date, people are just really nervous. So, they did one thing, but the rest of. the date was great, go on another date. with them. Do you think it's really that. like in the case of the like the Austin. Powers impression or whatever it was, is. that really the truth? Is it Was it. really that or is there something else. going on in their psychology where that. they've got commitment issues or, you. know, the. cuz I just think surely it can't be. that. Yeah. Yeah, I I think you're.

right. I think when you really get down. to it, you see that, you know, there are. reasons that people will find something. wrong with a partner if they are. avoidant of intimacy. So, you do see that. But, also I I write. about in Maybe You Should Talk to. Someone, one of the patients that I. write about is this young woman uh who I. call Charlotte in the book. And. Charlotte is somebody who is in her 20s, she's attractive and professionally. successful, and um you know, like a.

lovely person, but she keeps going after. men who replicate her childhood. And. she's not alone in that. Most of us, if. we haven't really worked through. whatever it was that that we didn't get. growing up or that we got too much of or. not enough of, what happens is we end up. seeking out the familiar. We end up Our. unconscious has Our subconscious has. radar for people who are like the person. that hurt us in childhood because it's.

our experience of love. Even if it. wasn't a positive experience, it's the. only experience that we have had of. love. And so, the imprint that we have. is, "Oh, that's love." So, what happened. for Charlotte was she would meet. somebody and he would seem very. different from her parents. Her mother. was very depressed. Her father was very. kind of either. very present for her or then abandoning. her. And um. he also drank too much and had alcohol. issues. So, she would find somebody. She.

would think, "Oh, this person's so. different from either of my parents.". Then she'd get to know him and realize, "Oh, wow, he drinks a lot, too. Didn't. realize that." Um except her. subconscious did. Like, she somehow had. radar for that person. Or, this person. yells a lot, too. Or, this person's. really inconsistent with me. They're. either love bombing me or they're. disappearing and I never know where I. stand with them. That was her experience. of her father. So, if Once she really. kind of processed what happened with her.

family, she started going out with. different kinds of people. Meaning, she. started being attracted to different. kinds of people. In that transition. period, she was like, "Oh, I'm going out. with this person, but I'm not He seems. really good for me, but I'm not really. attracted to him." That was because she. was still attracted to sort of the. father and the mother, the different. qualities, the victimy mom and the and. the unavailable mom and then the dad who. was kind of inconsistent with his. availability and also his temper and his. drinking. So, it's interesting to see. that she would date people just like.

that without realizing it at first that. she was choosing them. So, I think that. one thing that therapy can really do for. people is to help you see, why is it. that you're having trouble meeting. someone? Why is it that you're having. trouble once you're in relationship with. someone, if you get that far, maintaining that relationship or finding. someone who's good for you? If you sat. down with someone who had repeatedly. made the choice to date and have. one-night stands with people that were. clearly. going to hurt them or were clearly not. going to call them back the next day,

but they had this pattern of continually. going for people that were clearly. either not interested in them or saw. them as like a one-night stand. transaction. What would your assumption be about that. individual's. backstory? You know, I hate to make. assumptions, but I would say in general. what I would probably find would be that. this person um. is terrified of intimacy. This person doesn't feel that anybody. will love them. They feel unlovable. They feel like nobody would would want.

to be in a relationship with them. So, it's you can't fire me, I quit. Right? So, it's I'm not even going to. put myself in that position. I know this. is going to be a one-night stand. I. don't have any expectations. I'm. empowered, right? This is the story they. tell themselves is, "I'm so empowered. that I don't have to feel. I don't have. to get attached. Look at me. I I am. above my feelings." But, the thing is. they're really terrified of their. feelings. They're terrified of being.

attached. They're terrified of seeing. whether somebody can love them. Because they're worried that they're. going to get what's confirmed uh by. somebody else, which would be the. confirmation would be, "Oh, look, I. tried. I got attached to this person and. they didn't reciprocate it. Or, we dated. for a month and then they broke up with. me. So, see, that proves that I am. unlovable.". And that doesn't prove anything. It just. proves that this person was not the. right person for you. Where would you. start with trying to help somebody that. was in that situation? I would go.

straight to the the question of. lovability. I would go straight to the. question of, you know, what would it be. like to feel your feelings and how. terrifying is that for you? To feel. attached to someone, how scary is that? To feel like they are the arbiter of. your worth. And how can we switch that? So, when you go on a date, it's not will. they love me, but am I interested in. them? Do I want to spend time with them? So, it's not about am I going to be chosen, but I get to be the chooser. What is.

that like? Because that person has never. been able to be the chooser. And yes, sometimes you will choose someone who. doesn't reciprocate that, but you also. get to choose someone. Sometimes you. will choose some You someone will choose. you, but you don't reciprocate that. So, you just you know, so it's not the this. person is not saying, whoever you go out. with, they are not determining your. worth, that you know what your worth is, no matter what happens. And I think you. really have to work on the self-worth. part and where the story came from. because we all come into therapy with.

narratives about ourselves. And there's. stories that someone told us about. ourselves, either verbally they told us. like, "You're not good enough. You're. not this enough. You're not that. enough." Or, they told us with their. actions like they they weren't nurturing. to you. They didn't love you in the way. that you you saw other kids being loved. And so, you took in the story of I must. not be lovable. Jumping back to. something you said earlier cuz I was. thinking about this the the the disc the. general disconnect amongst men and women. these days. You used the word feminism. earlier. Mhm. There's been a lot of.

changes in societies'. expectations and um views of the role of. a man and a woman. in a relationship, but more broadly in. the workplace and society. And this has. caused a lot of. interesting dynamics that I think might. be having a an impact on. um people's expectations and the amount. of satisfaction in dates. Some of the studies I was looking at. ahead of your arrival today was one. study that shows that 71% of people say.

it's very important for a man to be able. to support family financially, to be a. good husband or partner, but by. comparison, only 32% say it's very. important for a woman to do the same. thing and that's Pew Research survey. Um but also, another study that said. this is on Sage Journals that men showed. less attraction towards women who. outsmarted them. And when you look at the changes in. income and intellect, in 1980, women. earned about 60% of what men did, but by.

2020, that had risen to 83%. Um there's obviously still issues with. gender pay gaps and and such, but what. we're seeing here is the kind of macro. trend is that women are more educated. and have more money. The expectation that a man is going to. be the provider in the household still. persists. And men don't want to date again, speaking generally, according to some. studies that show attraction. preferences, women that outsmart them. Right. So, the the interesting thing is.

that. when people say, you know, I want I want. to have flexibility, meaning a lot of. women will say this. I want to have. They'll say, "I absolutely expect that. I'm going to have a career, but I also don't want to be the sole. provider for the family.". Um and if they're really honest, a lot. of women will say, "I would like my. husband to earn more than me." At the. same time, more women are getting. college degrees. More women are getting. graduate degrees. More women are getting.

ahead of men in those areas. And so, women will also say, "And I want someone. who's as educated as I am." But, there. aren't as many men, just number-wise. So, if there are more women who are. educated, meaning college, graduate. school, than men, but those women want. men who have those degrees, they're not. the There's low inventory of men who. have that. And so, there's a There's. sort of a problem with that. Um and so, what I really want to.

encourage people to do is when they're. dating, and this is not about lowering. your standards, it's about saying to. women, there are lots of kinds of. intelligence. So, you Yes, you want to. be with someone who is equally. intelligent, but that doesn't mean that they have the. same degrees that you have. Who do you. want to talk to? Who do you have. interesting conversations with? Is this. causing an issue for successful women. that are that are over 30? I was reading. an article, I think it was in the. Washington Post, where um a lady was. interviewing another lady who'd written.

a book called, I think it's called like. The Gender Gap or something, and they. concluded that much of the reason why. successful women above the age of 30. were struggling in dating is because of. this issue that men don't want to be. with a woman that is like better than. them, and it's somewhat emasculating to. a man. And so, I I've had lots of private. conversations with very successful. women. I know for men a lot of. successful women that are very. exceptional in their relationships, but. I've also got a small cohort of women. that tell me. that they're struggling in dating.

because they're too successful and men. don't like it and are emasculated. Is. that true? I think there's this. narrative in our culture that. women are Women who are successful are. not finding men because they're focused. too much on their career, and I think. that's absolutely false. I think that. when you are out there in the work. environment, you are meeting men. And that's where you're And you're. meeting other people, you're meeting. other women who maybe are married and. their husbands have friends. You're out. there in the world and people are seeing. you. So, I think And also, you have.

meaning and purpose in your life and. you're doing something you enjoy, and I. think that that's very attractive. I. think that there are, you know, I think. that people. are wanting someone who can not live. their work, which is different from being. successful. And because you want a partner who's. also available to you, but I don't think. that it's because women are too focused. on their careers that that's what's. happening. I think it's because of this. gap that the women who are maybe. achieving certain things in the world.

are not finding men who are achieving at. the same level, and so they're not. They're just aren't enough men for those. women. The numbers just don't work out. And so, then there's this question of. as a woman who is a very high-achieving, do you have to be with somebody who is. high-achieving in the same way? And that's a very hard cultural shift. for a lot of women to make. And the. other problem is that when. high-achieving women want to be with. high-achieving men, a lot of those.

high-achieving men are not great. partners. And that's the thing that So, so they might be dating a lot of. high-achieving men, and they maybe they. are finding them, but then they find. that this person doesn't have time for. me, or this person isn't really. nurturing, or this person is, um you. know, married to his job, and I don't. like that. I think it's hard when you. have two people who are extremely. focused on their professional lives, and. neither one of them has time for the.

relationship. So, I'm not saying, you. know, there are a lot of relations where. that works really well, where both. people are very focused on their. careers, but they also understand each. other in a way that helps them. And then there are the relationships. where you have two very high-achieving. people, and they both expect that the. other person is going to be more. involved in the relationship to help. them support their own career, and they. can't because they're supporting the. their career. So, you can't You can't do. both. Yeah, just with this stat in mind. that 71% of people say it's very. important for a man to be able to.

support a family financially to be a. good husband or partner. If we get to the point a point, which is. kind of the the trajectory we're on, where women and men are earning the. same, women already have more sort of. college degrees than men by about, I. think it's roughly about 10% at the. moment, roughly. We're going to find ourselves where, yeah, expectations. for what a man can offer are really, really high, but reality is really low, and then you that it feels like that. the amount of women that are not finding. what they want is going to continue to.

increase. And the amount of men that don't feel. like they are good enough for a woman. because they're not smart enough, they. don't have enough money, they can't. contribute in the same way, is also. going to increase. But then also, with. general working dynamics, we're seeing. that people are getting married later. and later, they're having less and less. kids. So, are you at all concerned about this. trajectory? Yes, very. Um because I think it leaves a lot of. people who really want a partner and and. could really enjoy having a partner who. maybe is different from what this.

cultural norm is, they don't go after that. So, a woman. will say, "Oh, I'm not going to even go. on a date with this guy because he's not. successful enough.". Um you know, "We're too different." And. a man, on the other hand, might say, "I'm not going to even go on a date with. her because she's so focused on her. career, or, you know, she Or I'm not. good enough for her." So, they they. don't even get a chance to even see if. they might be a good match. And And. sometimes it's a great match because you. don't necessarily want two people who. are exactly the same. And I see this all.

the time with couples who come in for. couples therapy, where they thought that. what was so good about the relationship. when they first got together was, "We're. so the same." And then they find that, "Wait a minute, but there's no one here. to be more of the nurturer, or there's. no one here to spend more time with the. household, or there's no one here to do. more of kind of the logistical things in. the house because we're both doing. exactly the same job.". I was going to say, isn't that sort of. essential to the equality narrative that. you should share the responsibilities?

Right. So, equality doesn't mean that. you have exactly the same. responsibilities. It means that you feel. that there's not a power dynamic. So, equality means one person doesn't have. more power than the other person, but. that doesn't mean that, you know, I do. laundry 2.5 days of the week, or 3.5. days of the week, and you do laundry 3.5. days of the week. Maybe someone only. does their Their responsibility is the. laundry. That doesn't mean that there's. a power dynamic. It means the other. person maybe they're always doing the.

dishes, or whatever it is. It doesn't. have to be split up in this way. So, I. think that when people think about. having an egalitarian marriage, we're. talking about that there's not a power. differential, but you still get to. choose. Like, a woman might say, and I'm. being stereotypical here, it might be. the man, but often it's the woman who. says, "You know what? I want to do I. want to switch to part-time with my. work." So, that doesn't mean she has. less power in the marriage because he. makes more now because he's working. full-time. It means that they've divided.

up things differently because that was. their choice. That was That was something that was. chosen. It wasn't like, "You can't. work." It was, "I would like to do. less." Do you tend to see issues unique. to relationships when a woman is earning. more than a man? Yeah, I do. I still. think this is something that is is very. primal for us around, um you know, what. it means. I think that women sometimes. feel resentful. That's why they want to. be with someone. It's funny because a.

woman can be making a lot of money, and. she won't even go out with someone who. makes the same amount. She has to go out. with someone who makes more, which is. interesting because she won't. necessarily say that. I think it's hard. to acknowledge the contradictions. And I. think for men, the same thing, that a. man will say, "You know, I want a woman. who has her own life. I want somebody. who is doing something in the world that. is important to her, but I don't want. her to make more money than me." It's. hard to say that out loud. This comes. out in couples therapy where people. start talking about, "Wow, there is this. difference." And maybe it didn't even. start out that way. Maybe it started out.

where he was making more, and then. things shifted, and then she started. making more, and it changed something in. their dynamic. And so, they start. fighting a lot, but they're not fighting. about that. They're fighting about all. different kinds of things, and so it. comes out in different behaviors, and. they come to couples therapy saying, "We're having a We're fighting all the. time, or we're not having sex, or here's. what's happening." And it turns out it. was really about this issue of who has. power now. But they didn't realize it was about. that, or they weren't willing to kind of. look at that. Do you think it's getting.

increasingly harder to know what the. role of a man and a woman are? Cuz I. think, you know, I I've had so many. conversations on and off this podcast. with people who. uh have sons or daughters. It's often. the the ones that have sons. I'm. thinking about a lady that I know, and. she says she's so confused by what to. tell her son a man is these days. And, you know, when I think about suicidality. and how how much of a a big killer it. is, especially in the UK, I I know it's. a sort of a Western trend, but uh I. think it's the biggest killer of men. under the age of 45 is themselves. I'm.

thinking, you know, there's often a. narrative that that's because. masculinity is changing, they're not. being masculine enough. And then there's. another narrative that says, "No, it's. because they're not being feminine. enough.". What's typically associated with sort of. feminine traits? Yeah. Well, it's true. that more men die by suicide than women. do, and some people say, "Well, that's. because the method that men choose is. more lethal." But I also think that. that's only part of the story because. when men do come into therapy, they they.

truly, truly feel that conflicted about. exactly what you said, that I don't know. how to be a man in today's world. It. used to be much more clear. Now, I'm not. saying that was a good thing that it. used to be much more clear because there. were all kinds of power dynamics that. that weren't so healthy for men and. women. But I think now what men are. saying is, um you know, I maybe don't. want to be the person solely responsible. for, you know, like I would like my. partner to also bring in some income,

but, you know, that creates all kinds of. problems, or I want to be able to, again, open up to and talk to my partner. in this way, but I'm afraid that it. makes her feel unsafe. So, so what do we. do? What what does it mean? And and I'm. raised so I could say I'm raising a boy. who is now 18 years old and even things. like, you know, does he still pay? He. always wants to pay on a date and then. some people don't like that. And he.

thinks, well, I'm just being I'm just. being sort of chivalrous or, you know, but but there are all these ways in. which you don't know sort of like what. is expected of you. So, it's like if he. pays, then some people take offense. If. he doesn't pay, then some people take. offense and he just doesn't know what to. do. You know, like how much of these. things that I feel are being sort of the. role of a man in a nice way. Like. protecting, taking care of, will be offensive to some people because. they see it as kind of a power dynamic.

So, what is the role of the of a man? It's really unclear. I mean, that's the. thing and I think that that it really. needs to be discussed and that's where I. think there's hope is that when people. can actually say, "Hey, I'd really like. to pay on this date and, you know, if. she says, well, I don't feel comfortable. with that." I think a question is, "Okay, that's fine. You we can split it, but I want to let's talk about why." And. to be able to talk about, you know, what. are what does this mean that I pay? What. does that mean to you? You know, I think.

a lot of people would say, "Oh, well, it. means like, you know, that that you. expect something back from me. You. expect, you know, that that we're going. to have sex or you expect, you know, whatever these old ideas are.". Yeah. And and I think that we need to be. having these conversations. That's my. point is that it's not so important that. we that we know what it means. It's more. important that we know what it means to. the person that we are interested in. What does it mean to them? It's going to. mean something different to everybody. So, if we can't talk to this person that. we're interested in about what it means,

then we're just going to both people are. going to be mired in confusion. Yeah, I'm a bit of a old school romantic, as. they say. My my partner, she has a a. great job. She has her own money. But I just absolutely feel the need to. open up every door for her, pay for. every bill for her. I would absolutely. not have it any other way. Maybe that's. cuz I'm insecure or something, I don't. know. But I just. I watched my dad do it for my mom. and it's like hardwired into my DNA that. my role is to.

protect, take care of, do everything I. can to support and if she. I I yeah, God, I I. I really struggle with her paying for. me. And she's got her own money. She's she's. got her own business, her own job. But. have you talked about it or it just. worked out that way? She never said she. never said, "Can I pay this once or can. I. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. She pays she pays. You. know, she's she it's like a bit of a. competition. She'll like sneak off to. the bathroom and pay and stuff. But. generally I I think it's I've always. wanted to do that on dates and I I.

think, you know, if you sat people down. and asked them the question, you go on a. first date with a guy. and he asks to split the bill or he asks. you know, he doesn't immediately pay, Mhm. would that be an ick for you? Would. that turn you off them? That would be a. huge ick for me. Yes. Even for you it. would be? Yes. Yes. If you go on a first. date with a guy and he didn't pay? Yes. Would you. Absolutely. Why? It's hard to articulate. because and this is what people, you. know, will say all women will say of all.

ages. I think for my age we grew up with that. was the expectation. I think for younger. generations maybe it's not the. expectation, but I think a lot of people. still like it or want it. Mhm. There's. something there's something about it. that that says, I really. I really valued our time together. I. care. I'm interested. Mhm. It's a way of. signaling interest, but I think even if. the person isn't interested and you're. never going to see each other again, it's just a nice gesture. Mhm. But I. don't have any any rational.

way of explaining why. And if and if I were to get rational. about it, I would talk myself out of it. Yes. I think that's a very honest. answer. And then the counter sort of. rebuttal to that means okay, so if men. are expected to pay, then. we're going to need more money. Yes. Yes, and it gets very expensive to date. Yeah, really does. I mean, you know, people will say, "Oh, you can go on a hike. It doesn't doesn't. cost anything. You can do a picnic. You.

can, you know, watch a movie." There are all. kinds of things you can do, but the. reality is it's kind of like I remember. that that old Chris Rock joke in the. first 3 months of a relationship you're. not you, you're the ambassador of you. So, you know, you want to impress. somebody. You're you're trying to show. interest in somebody. But I do think there is that that really. primal. need for safety that is gender based. that we don't like to talk about or. acknowledge, but that I think women.

really I think if if somebody doesn't. pay on a first date if a guy doesn't pay. on a first date, I think a lot of women. don't feel safe. That's what it comes. down to. It's a it's a tricky world and. it's getting increasingly trickier it. feels, you know. It it feels like an. insult almost that the person doesn't. pay. Not many people. Some people would, but no one would really publicly say. that though because it's like not. socially acceptable to say that you. expect them to say that. But in private. conversations, of course, everyone I. know is that if they went on a date with. with a man, so in a heterosexual. relationship and the man either asked to.

split the bill. or to or suggested that you might pay, Mhm. this person's not going to get a second. date. Of course not. No. No, unless it was the woman who said, "Oh, no, let me split that with you.". But if he it was his decision. and he said, "Oh, let's split this." Or. he put it in the middle. No. No. I I I in therapy the young woman. came to me recently and she said she. went out with this guy and they went to. a cafe and they got.

coffees. And he. uh. asked her to split it. Coffee. And she said and she was having so much. fun on the date until the bill came. And she was shocked and she thought, "Okay, well, she made it was very personal to her. At. first she thought, I must he must really. really have had a horrible time with me. to have want to not pay for my $5. coffee.". And then he asked her out again. And she.

said to me, "I don't understand this at. all. So, he was interested in me and he. didn't pay for my coffee.". And she did not go out with him again. So, these are the kinds of signals that. it it very much is emblematic of. something. Who pays on that first date? Do you. agree with that decision that she made? 100%. And I I didn't say that as her. therapist. It's really about. understanding it for her, but but I I do. agree with that decision and I and I. think it's because.

there's something there's something. like a half note off. about a person who doesn't even see that. it's a $5 coffee and you're interested. in this person. and she wasn't making any moves to pay. She was just sitting there for a very. long time and the the she said, this is. the way she told the story was that the. person came around and couple times and. said, "Are you ready?" And the guy said, "Oh, no, we're not ready yet." And then. at a certain point he said to her, "Oh, do you want to.

put your credit card down, right?" to. her. And so, she just said I could never. go out with somebody like that. Even though they had a really good time. before that. So, if we zoom back out then, Mhm. so is. are you saying that that is a. tell tale sign of a broader character. issue that this individual has cuz. earlier you said that we really should. be focusing on like character traits. Is. that a red flag of some kind of other. character trait? I think that when. things are hard in the beginning, that's. not a good sign. So, I think that when there's like a big.

disconnect in the beginning, that you. should pay attention to that. So, a a. big disconnect is not he, you know, the. example I gave earlier of, you know, he. said yes to the tap water. Mhm. That's. different from he didn't pay for my. coffee. That's that's different. The tap. water might be, "Oh, I don't know. Is he is he cheap? I don't. know. Let's see. Let me get to know him. better." This is. this is about generosity. They're different things. And so, you. know, I I feel like relationships, I.

always say to people when they when they. overlook things in the beginning, I. think there are two camps on this. There's the people who think everything. is a red flag that's not like the tap. water, not a red flag. But there are. people who don't pay enough attention to. the red flags in the beginning. So, they. say, "Yes, this person they kind of. disappeared for a couple days and I. didn't like that and, you know, but but. or they they were they're late all the. time or, you know, whatever it is. It doesn't. necessarily mean it's a deal breaker,

but it's kind of a. a flag that you want to discuss early. on. So, what what happens is if you. don't discuss it is a person will say, you know, after they're now they're in a. relationship and they've been dating for. several months and and and they're. moving along and the person says, "I. can't stand it when you're late every. time." Mhm. And he says, "Why is this a. problem? I've always been late. Why is. this a problem now?" Mhm. Right? So, if. you bring it up early before the cement. dries. So, you know, I always say. relationships are like cement that.

there's room for things to move in the. beginning before things kind of really. get hard and difficult to change. But. once the cement dries, it's much harder. to change those habits or those. interactions or the dance that you're. doing with the other person. So, if you. don't like something in the beginning, you might want to bring it up to see how. much wiggle room is there here. Can this. person. be more aware of being on time because I. don't like sitting there for half an. hour every time we make plans. We're getting married a lot less and.

we're getting married. later later. Yeah, so there was a stat. that I I found that said. for the first time ever, people over the age of 30 have been. haven't been married in high numbers. than ever before. So, yeah, marriage is. getting later and later in people's. lives. But, I also found this really. interesting graph, which I printed out, which shows that there seems to be an. optimal time to get married. Yes, I was just going to mention that. That there's a window. So, I'll put it. up on the screen for anyone that's. looking, and I'll put it in the. description below.

But, it essentially shows that if you. get married after 30, Mhm. you're more likely to get divorced. than if you got married between 25 and. 30. Right. So, there's a sweet spot. So, if you get married too young, you're more likely to get divorced. Meaning, if you get married sort of. under 20, I think it's 22 or 23, Mhm. um. but if you get married over, I think. it's 28, you have more likelihood of getting. divorced. So, this study, which I have. in front of me by the Institute for. Family Studies, says there is an optimum.

age to get married if you want to. statistically avoid a chance of divorce. And it seems to be around ages 25 to. 30-ish. Someone who marries at 25 is. over 50% less likely to get divorced. than someone who weds at age 20. Mhm. Before the age of 32 or so, each. additional year of age at marriage. reduces the odds of divorce by 11%. However, after 32 years old, um every year increases your chance of. divorce by 5%.

And I couldn't figure out why. Oh, I think there are several reasons. for this. So, first of all, I think it's. sort of obvious about marrying too. young, that you you don't necessarily. have the skills, you aren't really um. established in your own life, and uh you. don't necessarily have the maturity to. do what you need to do to be in that. kind of relationship for the long term. You also don't really know who you are. yet. And so, you might think that you. want a certain kind of life, and you. find out your partner wants something. very different. But, once you get into.

your mid-20s and even sort of later 20s, it's an optimal time because you have a. better sense of who you are, um you know. more of what you want, and you can grow. together. as a couple. And I think that's really important. You're going to have more shared. experiences. You're going to know more. of each other's families. Your parents. are probably still alive on each side. Um you're going to get to know each. other's siblings, if you have siblings. You're going to be more integrated into.

each other's lives as you get older. First of all, you're more sort of set in. your ways. You're We talked about. rigidity earlier. You're more rigid. Um you have different expectations. I. think when you're younger, you're more. flexible in terms of uh just being more. open-minded. We get less open-minded, generally, as we get older. um around relationship, around the. things that we expect. And we also have a history as we get. older. So, we have more negative.

experiences. of maybe heartbreak, being broken up. with, breaking up with people, um. relationships that didn't work out that. then inform the way we behave in our. relationships. And I like to say it's. almost like we're we're punishing our. current partner for a crime they didn't. commit. So, if you were in a. relationship before where maybe you were. cheated on or someone didn't treat you. well, then you are less trusting of the. partner that you're with, or you're more. on guard or more closed off because.

you're worried you're not going to get. treated well. So, it's almost like the. the more dating experiences that you. have, some people would think, counterintuitively, they would think, um. you know, if I have more dating. experience, then I'm going to be a. better partner later on. But, often. because those were not great dating. experiences, sure you might have learned. something in them. But, if you have too. many of them, it's good to maybe have a. relationship or two before you get. married, but to have five, um it's. harder, right? Because you have all this. baggage that you're bringing in, and the.

other person, who's also your age, has. all this baggage that they're bringing. in. And there might also be something. It's kind of like if a fight breaks out. in every bar you're going to, maybe it's. you, that maybe you are doing something. in relationship, and that is why. It's. not that you haven't been able to meet. someone, it's that you've been pairing. up with people in a way that is not. really healthy. So, you and you haven't. spent the time to really figure it out. So, you're just going to keep repeating. and repeating those not-great. relationships. Even if you marry the.

person, it might not last because. something has not been working in those. last five relationships, and you haven't. figured that out yet. In your TED Talk, you talk about. part of getting to know yourself is. getting to unknow yourself. Why do we have to get to unknow. ourselves? Well, I think that so many people think, I'm going to come into therapy, and I'm. going to learn so much about myself. And. you do, but part of learning about. yourself is learning what the faulty.

narratives are that you've been carrying. around, whether it's I'm unlovable, or I. can't trust anyone, or I'm no good at. this, or this thing is wrong with me. These, again, are stories that you. picked up about yourself from a long. time ago. And it might not even have. been your parents, it might have been at. school. Maybe you were bullied in. school, or maybe you were in an. environment that maybe you had ADHD, and. you were told you weren't smart because. people didn't realize that you learned.

differently, and you actually are quite. intelligent. So, you have these stories. So, it's to unknow. People will come in. and say, "Well, I'm not that I'm not. really smart." Well, you have to unknow. that because that might not be true. Let's find out. So, it's really, you know, I it's. interesting because I was a writer long. before I was a therapist, and I still am. a writer, but I use so much of of. writing and narrative in the therapy to. kind of help people edit their stories. Let's look at, you know, is the. protagonist going in circles, or is the.

protagonist moving forward? Who are the. supporting characters, and and do the. major characters need to be more minor. characters in your life, and do some of. the minor characters need to be more. major characters, and and. what is going to be the next chapter? How do we look at where the story is. going? So, a lot of this is unknowing. stuff about the character, which is you. You know, if you come up with a. character as a writer, and you say, "Well, this person's not very smart, and. they're kind of weird, and they're. unlovable.". Well, you're going to write the story a.

certain way thinking the character has. those traits. But, if you say, "Actually, this person's quite smart, and they're quite lovable, and they're. quite attractive." Well, you're going to. write a different next chapter for them. I've always, on that point about sort of. narratives we've written, I've always. considered myself to be. very productive. Maybe the more honest answer is a bit of. a workaholic to some degree. I think. that my work is fundamentally. attached and associated with my own. self-esteem. So, I think when I'm working really,

really hard, and I feel really. productive, I think at some deep level, I think I'm worth more, or I'm like I. fit in. It kind of it goes back to when. I was younger and I felt like I didn't. fit in. It feels like I'm more valuable. Now, the problem you have as an adult. when you're trying to achieve a. different set of goals, like have a. healthy relationship, is this kind of. gets in your way. And I I think I found. that in myself, that I still have this. urge to be really successful and work. really hard because at some level it's. making it's doing something for my image. of myself.

But, as I get older, I kind of need to. figure out a way to drop that down a. little bit, or else I'm going to miss. out on something that's going to make me. happy, which is relationships. And a lot. of people that I speak to, a lot of. people that listen to this podcast, are. in a similar situation where they just. can't get off the train in terms of. their work. Yeah. Yeah, so we were. talking about defense mechanisms. And. so, one of the defense mechanisms is. where you take something that comes from. an unhealthy place, and you put it into. something that looks on the surface. healthier. So, I don't feel worthy, uh.

or as worthy as I would like to, so I'm. going to succeed in this incredible way. So, on the surface, it looks great. It. looks like you're doing something really. healthy. But, actually, you're not. really working on that self-worth piece. Another example might be um somebody who. has a lot of anger, and they take up um. boxing, right? Mhm. Um or they become a surgeon because. they cut into people. You see this a. lot. Um where somebody takes their. anger, so they put it into something. that looks healthy.

But, they're not really dealing with the. underlying issue, which is the anger. You see that a lot, that people that. have anger issues sometimes take up. roles like surgeons? Sure. Yeah. Really? Yeah. Anything where you where you can. do Again, boxing, it could be anything. where you where you're putting it into a. socially acceptable container. as opposed to dealing with the issue. So, there's nothing wrong with being a. great surgeon. There's nothing wrong. with being somebody who succeeds in work. that they love. But, then what happens.

is. when you're not doing the thing that. gets the societal approval, then where. does, you know, what do you do with in. one case your anger, and the other case. your self-worth? And so, I'm glad that. you're looking at at the self-worth. piece because that's going to be. important because you're not always. going to get it from your work. How do. you improve your self-worth? What would. you do with a patient like me? I would you know, I I think it's we we. do this on the podcast where we do. something very practical, where we have. people make a list of the things that.

other people would say So, there's two. columns. There's one, what would other. people say are your best qualities that. have nothing to do with your work? Okay. What do they appreciate most about you? And then, what do you appreciate most. about yourself that has nothing to do. with work that you think other people. don't see? And when you when you start. to look at those, they're very quiet at. first. You know, people don't have a. long list. They're kind of like, "I. don't really know." And and I'm looking. for really tiny things like this person. really appreciated that when they were. sick I called them.

This person really appreciates that I'm. funny, that I make them laugh. I. appreciate that about myself, you might. say, right? You might say like I really. appreciate that about myself or I. appreciate that I can be calm under. really stressful circumstances. Um I appreciate that I um. I notice my partner. And I do nice things for my partner. I. appreciate not my partner appreciates. that, that'll be on one column, but the. other column is I appreciate that about. myself. So looking at how can I pay more.

attention to some of these areas that I. I don't pay enough attention to because. I can only see the real shiny thing out. there, which is how many people, you. know, how many millions of people follow. me or how many people um you know, download the podcast, those kinds of. things. And is there a reason why okay, the reason why you separate work from. that is because you're trying to find. your self-esteem in other places outside. of the work. Right, so it's both and. It's not to say don't get don't don't. feel worthy because of what you do with. your work. That's a big part of what we. do with our lives. Think of the number.

of hours that we spend in work. We're. spending most of our days doing work. So. of course we want to get self-worth from. that. But we also want to know that we. have other areas in which we are worthy. And that we don't pay enough attention, we don't give ourselves enough credit. It's kind of like in a relationship, there's a statistic about the bank of. goodwill. So in a healthy relationship. there are that we think of deposits of. how many positive interactions do you. have with your partner to how many.

negative interactions do you have? And. so you want to have 20 positive. interactions for every one negative. interaction. in a relationship. Hm. And when things are not good, you. want to have you you know, you you hope. you can do five positive ones to one. negative one. But that's that's a lot. So it's it's. really noticing. These are these are. small little deposits that you make. Like I held I I took my partner's hand. when we were walking down the street.

You know, those are like small positive. interactions. You're not counting them. It's just a way of being. But what. happens is when your self-worth is all. in one bucket, you don't notice. You're. not making enough deposits to yourself. of into the self-worth bank. So it's it. really is about noticing what are the. deposits that I'm making. So I'm making. a lot of deposits in the in the work. bucket, but I'm not making a lot of. deposits and noticing that was really I. really liked that. I was really funny in. at that dinner that was really fun. Um I. was really kind to that stranger on the.

street. That was really nice of me. Do you think that some people are scared. to go to therapy because they think. if they are to heal from something, whatever that means, it will rob them of. something that they value. I if I go to. therapy and I work through my childhood. trauma, then maybe I won't be as. ambitious or successful or driven etc. I. think the fear is I will have to change. I will have to change and I will have to. do something different and I might not. like that. Hm. And that's why people are.

like if I go to therapy and I take off. my mask and this person sees the truth. of who I am and I see the truth of who I. am, I might need to do something. difficult and I might need to get rid of. one of my defense mechanisms like I'm. avoidant maybe, right? Or I'm or I might. not be able to um you know, to do things. that maybe I get away with that are not. very healthy. because they're easier. In your book you you say something in. your new. book. maybe.

you should talk to someone. You say. something that really surprised me, which is that sometimes when someone. changes, those around them will sabotage. them and basically get in the way of. that change because it changes the. dynamic that that relationship has with. a person. And I mean we see this. generally when someone becomes. successful for example, their friends. from their hometown might be a little. bit resistant because they want to keep. the dynamics the way that they are. But. the examples that you talk about in the. book about like, you know, someone gets. over their alcohol addiction and then a. friend might sabotage them by I don't.

know, giving them alcohol or taking them. to a bar. Yeah. Which is really really. striking. Yeah, that happened with. Charlotte in the book when she realized. that her drinking was a problem. She was. the young woman who's in her 20s and was. dating and she realized that she drinks. too much and it's really affecting her. life and her functioning. And so she. decided that she was going to do. something about that and then when her. she was having a birthday party and her. friend said, "Oh, let's do it at this. bar." And she said, "No, I'd rather do. it at this other place because I don't.

want to be in that environment." And her. friends were just like, "You're no fun. anymore." And you don't come out with us. anymore. But the but the real issue is. that she was holding up a mirror without. realizing it to her friends because they. were saying, "Oh, maybe we aren't. drinking in a healthy way." And they. didn't want to look at that. So if they. could get her to go back to the old way. You see this in couples a lot. When one. person decides they're going to get. healthy in a certain way. Like I'm going. to start exercising and the person. starts exercising and the other person.

doesn't exercise at all and they're. really unhealthy and that person says, "Why do you get up early and go to the. gym? You're no fun anymore. You know, you're obsessed with exercise." When. they're not, they're just going to the. gym in a normal way. And really they're. feeling threatened. They're like, you. know, this is changing the dynamic. between us cuz we used to be both unfit. and now my partner's looking really. healthy and hot and now it's really. clear that I'm not really healthy and I. don't look as good as I could look. And. maybe I'm going to have to do this and. they don't really want to, they're.

resistant to doing that. And the. partner's not asking them to do to go to. the gym. They're saying, "I'm going to. the gym. You do what you want." But. there's this. implicit pressure. of I have to look at myself. That's why. people again don't come to therapy is. because I'm going to have to look at. myself and maybe make some changes that. are healthier and I'm not sure I'm ready. to do that yet. And I write in the book. about the stages of change because I. think it's so important that people. understand that New Year's resolutions. for example, don't often work because.

people think I just decide this thing, I. have this goal, I'm going to do it and I. either succeed or I fail. And that's just not true. There are. these stages that people go through and. it starts with precontemplation where. you don't even know you're thinking of. making a change. And that's usually like. if your partner starts exercising you. didn't realize that maybe in the back of. your mind that that was something you. had been thinking about but weren't. ready to deal with. Contemplation is you. know you're thinking about making a. change but you're not ready to do it. yet. That's usually when people come to.

therapy. They're thinking about it but. they don't really they're not really. ready. Preparation is when you you start. to get ready, you're preparing, you're. you're maybe getting a gym membership or. you're taking an anger management class. or whatever you're doing. And then action is when you put the. change and and it might also be like. you're preparing to break up with. someone who's not good for you. So. you're getting thinking about how am I. going to do this, what are the logistics. of this? And then when you action is you. actually do the thing. You break up, you.

go to the gym, you change jobs, you. apply for a job that you always wanted, you go back to grad school, you do the. thing you wanted to do. But then the. next stage is the most important stage, which is maintenance. And maintenance is. it's not like you're on this upward. trajectory and and if you if you you go. off the trajectory, then you failed. It's not like that. Maintenance is how. does this become more habitual in my. life? So let's use the breakup example. You broke up with this person, you're. having a really bad day, you're feeling.

really lonely. You called them at. midnight or you texted them at midnight. because oh, I don't know, you know, like. and so now you say, "Oh, well, I better. get back in a relation I guess I'm back. in a relationship with them." No, no, no, no, you you slipped off, it's okay. Then you say, "You know what? I was. feeling really lonely. I didn't know how. to cope with it. I'm going to go to. therapy. I'm going to have an extra. session. I'm going to call my friend. I'm going to watch a TV show that that. that I like. I'm going to read a book. that I like. It will feel different in. the morning. Next time that's what I'm. going to do.".

And so you you have to get used to, you. know, we talked about the familiar. earlier about going toward familiar. partners. Making a change is really hard. because we're changing something that. was familiar to us. It's like when I was. in therapy um. my therapist said, "You know, you remind. me of this cartoon." And it's of a. prisoner shaking the bars desperately. trying to get out. But on the right on. the left it's open. No bars. So that's. us where we think you know, I would like. to make a change but I'm really afraid.

of going outside I'm more comfortable. being in jail in this miserable. situation than knowing that I have. freedom but I have to change. I'm going. to have to take responsibility for my. life if I walk around those bars. And so I think with change it's really. about. how do I give myself self-compassion. when I. have trouble making the change and help. myself get back on track and what kind. of support do I need. People think if I. beat myself up, if I self-flagellate, if. I tell myself I'm awful and I'm a. failure, I'm going to get back on track.

because that's going to help me. No, it's not going to help you. In the short. term it might help you a little bit, but. what's really going to help you is to. have self-compassion because that. actually gives you more accountability. You're more able to say to yourself, "Okay, let me think about what I can do. differently." It's kind of like if your. kid comes home from school and says, "I. did really badly. I failed this test.". Are you going to scream at them? Is that. going to help them do better on the next. test? Or are you going to say, "Let's. sit down and figure this out. What do. you think happened here?" And your kid. might say.

"I didn't really understand it and I. didn't get help." Or your kid might. really be honest and say, "I didn't. study enough.". So we can say, "Okay, well, what can you. do next time? Let's kind of think about. can you make a schedule? Can you do you. need to study with a study partner? What. do you need to do?" That's what helps. people make long-term change. Is that. the wise compassion that you spoke about. versus the sort of idiot compassion, which you talk about as well. Idiot. compassion is what we tend to do with. our friends. So, your friend says, "Listen to what my partner, my.

co-worker, my you know, my sibling, my. parent did or said." And we say, "Yeah, they're wrong. You're right. How dare. they?" Cuz we're just validating their. perspective. And like we were talking. about in my TED Talk, there are many. different versions of a story, all of. which are true. So, you you're only. getting one narrow perspective when. you're hearing one one person's. perspective. That's why couples therapy. is so great, because I can hear the same. incident told by two different people.

who were there, both of whom are telling. the absolute truth of their experience. But they're leaving out the other. person's experience. And that's where things get dangerous. So, in idiot compassion, we don't. consider what the other person's. perspective might be when our friend is. telling us something. We just back up. our friend. But they're not learning. anything from that experience. It's And. And when you hear them over and over, you kind of get a sense that maybe. they're doing something. Like an example. would be. um. your friend keeps getting broken up.

with. And. we can say, "Yes, these men are jerks. They're terrible. You deserve better.". Or we can say, "You know, I think that. sometimes you're a little bit too. possessive early on in the relationship, and I think they start to feel. overwhelmed, and then they break up with. you. But if you could just hold your. anxiety a little bit more at the. beginning of the relationship and not be. so. overwhelming to them, that you might. develop something different the next. time. That would be wise compassion.

That's what they're going to hear in. therapy. So, in therapy, we hold up a. mirror to them and help them to see. something about their role in the. situation that maybe they haven't been. willing or able to see. And so, we think we're being a good. friend by offering idiot compassion, but. we're not actually helping our friends. And that's where therapy I think could. be really helpful. When you sit with a. man and a woman in a therapy session, do. you typically find that the woman. expresses more emotion. tears than the man? Sometimes, yes,

often. I also think that emotions can be used. as manipulation. So, an example is. uh a pattern in a relationship might be. that he brings up something that he. wants to talk about. She cries because. of what he said. And he said it nicely, but it's. something they need to deal with. And she cries, and then he gets. terrified by her crying. He thinks, "Oh. my gosh, I've hurt her.". And so, then he shuts down. And so, really her crying is a.

manipulation. It's a I don't want to. hear anything that I'm {quote} doing. wrong. And so, I'm going to shut that down by. crying and being the victim and being. hurt. Being a victim is actually a power. position, because you are making it. impossible for anyone to deal with. whatever is going on between the two of. you. Because now you're the victim, and. now they look like a horrible person if. they're making you cry. So, I will call. that out in therapy, and I will say, "You know what? He's going to talk, and we're going to do something.

different. He's going to be able to say. what he wants to say. She might cry, but. if she cries, I want you to please go. on. She's going to be fine. I'm going to. be here with her, and you don't have to manage her. feelings. You're going to tell her about. your feelings. I will be here to help. manage her feelings." Mhm. Interesting. And you see that if you're not in. therapy, you'll see that pattern where. it's just, you know, someone will play. the victim in the relationship. And it. could go either way. It could be anyone. in the relationship. But when someone.

plays the victim, the other person. actually becomes the victim. They become. so helpless in the relationship. The. true victim is the person who has to. interact with the person who plays the. victim. Dreams. Something I was quite. surprised to find in your book, but. pleasantly surprised. Yes. Do our dreams. have meaning, or are they just random? I. think both, but I I think that dreams. are really helpful. And in the book, I. do give examples of dreams where dreams. are often. kind of a story that we tell ourselves.

that we aren't giving ourselves. permission to think about when we're. awake. So, an example might be somebody. who has been who is worried that they. have been doing something financially. that is not legal. They have a dream that they were. speeding on the highway, and they got. caught. Well, what is that dream really about? It's this I don't really want to think. about this thing that I'm doing that's. not quite above board, and I know I. shouldn't be doing it, but I'm not going. to think about that. Um you know, the.

dream that that I have in the book, where so I come into therapy because of. a breakup, and um and I have a dream. that I ran into my ex, and uh. and it's this very elaborate dream, but. the the point is that in my first. therapy session, I had said to my. therapist when I was talking about the. breakup, I said, "Well, half my life is. over." And he really glommed onto that. statement that that was really why I was. in therapy. What was this about for me? It wasn't so much about the breakup. The. breakup got me into therapy, but this.

whole question of what am I doing with. my life and how I'm living my life, and. this question of mortality was really. what was on my mind. And so, in the. dream, I think I see that he has a new. girlfriend, and I see that she's older. than me, and I feel very self-satisfied. by that in this petty way. And then I look at myself in the mirror. in the dream, and I'm like this. 80-year-old. wrinkled person. And I realize, "Oh, this is really about. this fear that I have about getting.

older and that half my life is over.". And so, dreams really do inform our. biggest fears and our biggest. preoccupations that feel too. scary to think about in our waking life. And if we pay attention to our dreams, and what I mean by that is, when you. wake up and you remember your dream, if. you write it down immediately, but you. write it in the present, not we were. here and this happened, but I'm here and. I see so-and-so, and so-and-so says to.

me. If you write it in the present, it. will bring back more of the dream for. you, and it will help you understand. what connection it has to something that. you really do need to be dealing with in. your life that you're probably not. dealing with. Dreams can be a precursor to. self-confession. Yes, that's what I say. Self-confession. They can tell you. things about yourself before you're. willing to admit them about yourself. into yourself. Yes, and and and it's so. liberating. I think that there's. something about the safety of a dream. Sometimes our dreams are really scary,

but you wake up and you say, "Okay, now. I can deal with it. Now that I've. acknowledged it to myself, I can deal. with it. In the dream, I just had to go. with the flow of the dream. But now I. can actually make choices about what I. want to do in my waking life." At the. beginning of each therapy session, um. you'll often ask your patients to. describe their last 24 hours. What Why. is that useful. to know what someone's been doing for. the last 24 hours? I think most of us. don't realize how we spend our time. We.

have no idea. If you said to somebody, "You spend 3 hours a day scrolling on. Instagram," they would say, "No, I. don't.". We don't realize And I think that at the. end of the day, most of us want to live. our lives with intention. And what I mean by that is, I think that. knowing that life has a 100% mortality. rate, that all of us. has a limited time here. We're living on. borrowed time. That's not to freak. people out. It's to make people say,

"How are you actually spending this. borrowed time that you have here?". Because one day you might look back and. wonder why. And I always say that regret. can lead us in one of two directions. It. can be a way of self-flagellating and. living in the past, or it can be an. engine for change. And I really think regret is the most. powerful engine for change. I regret. that I lived my life this way. So, if we. don't realize how we are living our. lives, we don't have the engine for. change. In that chapter 24, you say the.

opposite of depression isn't happiness, but vitality. Yeah, that's Andrew. Solomon that I'm quoting there. Um and. I thought that that really struck me. when he said that in his own book, in. his own TED Talk, because I think that. people think about, "Well, I'm either. happy or I'm sad.". And And. I think what we're There's no You can't. be happy all the time. There's no such thing. You would never. know any other emotion if that's all you. were feeling. So, I think that that vitality is what.

people are looking for in life. What is vitality? It's a sense of aliveness. Okay. And. this is why people have affairs, by the. way. Often, when you ask people, "Why did you. cheat when you love your partner?". I didn't feel vitality in my life. I. felt this sense of aliveness and a. wokeness when I was with this other. person. And it wasn't had not much to do with. the other person, and it really didn't. have much to do with your partner. It. had to do with you didn't feel vitality.

in your own life. And instead of looking. at yourself and saying, "What can I do. to create vitality in my life?" I blamed. it on my marriage. I blamed it on my. partner. I said I was going to find it. with this other person. And what they. find is, yeah, that works for a little. while, but not very long. Does menopause. play a role in this in terms of I heard. a a stat from um someone that was on the. podcast previously, where they said. postmenopausal women, but also women. going through menopause, will often. divorce their partner because they um.

have a lot of sort of. psychological. doubts about themselves, and they maybe. their expectations I think someone said. to me that their expectations go up. So, they end up divorcing their partner. because they're clearer on what they. want now. But I was just wondering what role. menopause will play in someone's. marriage and their expectations, their. view of themselves, their chance of. maybe getting a divorce. And if you see. anything in therapy associated with. this? I think what menopause does is it goes. back to this idea of I don't have.

forever here. And if they weren't happy. with the marriage that they were in, then I think people really wake up and. they really say, "What do I want in my. life?". It's a It's a very There's a lot of. psychological changes that come with. It's not just the hormonal changes, but. it's what does that represent? That I am. done with that chapter of my life. And. I'm now I'm I'm, you know, halfway. through. Again, half my life is over. And what do I want to do to more.

intentionally? Because often women have. been serving others. So, that's what they've been doing. They've been taking care of other. people's needs, whether it's their. partners or their children or their. parents. Um, you know, they tend to be the. caretakers. And now they're saying, "Wait a minute. I only have this much time left and I. really want to find that vitality in my. life." You went to therapy because of. heartbreak. Yes. I've been through. heartbreak. Who has not? It's one of the. It's one of the worst feelings in the. world. And it's it's really hard to give.

someone advice when they're going. through heartbreak. I had a friend reach. out to me recently and said, "Listen, I'm going through a heartbreak and I. just don't know what I who else to turn. to. It's this big dark cloud that hangs. over everything I do, think, and say. that just won't go away." What have you. come to learn about heartbreak from your. own experience, but also from your your. patients? How do we navigate through. that dark cloud? I think what people don't understand. about heartbreak is the grief. And And so, this is why I talk about it. so much in Maybe You Should Talk to. Someone because it's not just that you.

lost the present with that person. It's. that you lost the future that you had. created in your mind. So, you're losing. the daily-ness. There's something. really profound about the person you. tell all the minutia of your day. The. person you you know you know so much. about each other and you know each. other's habits and quirks. This again, being understood, being truly known. That's such a delicious feeling, being. truly known. And so, this person knows like what you. what kind of pizza you like or or, you.

know, this quirky habit you have or what. TV shows you watch or that that thing. that you do with your eyes when you're. excited. They know all those little, seemingly, trivial details that are so. important about being known. And they. know your history and they know about. your family and they know who your. friends are and they You've had shared. experiences with this person. So, you. have all that history together. Even, by. the way, if it was only 6 months. Mhm. You have a lot together or a year. And so, in that time you started to.

imagine. "Oh, and then this is going to happen. next year and then in 5 years this will. happen or we're going to grow old. together." Whatever you imagine will. happen. And you become attached to their. friends and they attached to your. friends. And then you lose the. daily-ness of being known, you lose the. bigger circle that you had, and you lose. the companionship, you lose the physical. connection. You lose all of that, but you also lose. this idea of what was to come. And so, every day you're living in this.

future that is radically different from. that day as it would have been if you. were in that relationship. So, it's very. hard. People think, "Well, how's it been. this long? How come you're not over this. person?" It's kind of like the same. thing when um. you know, someone has a breakup instead. of a divorce. People think, "Well, it's not that big. of a deal." Why? Why is it less of a big. deal? It's still loss and grief. Or um, you know, it's like when if if someone. loses a child, everyone surrounds them. There are all these rituals for How do. we help people through that kind of.

loss? Someone has a miscarriage. People. are like, "Well, you can still get. pregnant again. At least you got. pregnant, you know." Or the the the. things There's a chapter in the book. called What Not to Say to a dying person. because one of the patients that I work. with in the book is um is somebody who's. a young person in her 30s who is is new. newly married and then gets a cancer. diagnosis. And people say the most. well-meaning, but ridiculous things to. her. And so, I think the same thing. happens in heartbreak where people try. to minimize it, they try to cheer you.

up, they they won't sit with you in your. loss. And that's what you really need is. someone to sit with you in your loss and. to acknowledge how profound the loss is. And people don't do that. They don't. They either don't see how profound it is. or they do, but they they feel like, "Well, we don't want the person to. wallow in it or if I bring it up, you. know, they're going to be worse." No, what they need to be seen and actually. that's going to make them better and. it's going to make them heal faster. What impact did it have on you? The way.

people reacted or The heartbreak. The heartbreak. I think for me it was a big wake-up call. again around this idea of half my life. is over and what do I want in my life. and why was I willing to overlook. certain things in my relationship that. were clearly there, but that I didn't want to see. And how. did you go about recovering is not the. right word. Moving forward.

How did you go about moving forward? That's That's the whole narrative of the. book. Um, I went to therapy and it's. really about what I learned about myself. in therapy that that helped me heal and. helped me move forward. I was thinking about the uh the advice. that I could give to. my friend and how I could have been a. better support act cuz my natural. disposition is to try and fix. And from. what you've said, that's not necessarily. the best approach to take.

It You know, cuz my my natural um. inclination is to go tell them the. future will be better. Mhm. Share my. experience of my heartbreak. And those. are all good because as a therapist, I. want to hold hope for somebody who's. really really dealing with a difficult. situation, whether it's a breakup or. something else. I want to hold hope that. they can't access. They can't access any. hope at that point. So, I'm going to. hold the hope for them. But I'm not going to try to cheer them. up. I'm just going to be the container. for that hope. So, that they know that.

someone else is holding that hope. So, you did two things really well. One was. that you shared your experience so that. this person knows this happens. This. person isn't alone in this. They Cuz I. think when you go through a heartbreak, intellectually, you know other people. have gone through it, but you feel like. yours is so much worse than anybody. else's. And so, to know that that you went. through it, too, and here's what helped you. Mhm. And it. also took time and it sucked and all of. those things. And then I know that it.

will get better even if you can't see it. right now. To let them know that piece. I know it will get better for you even. if you can't see it right now. And the. third But the So, those are the two. things that that went well. The third. thing, though, is to be able to sit in. the grief with them. To say, "Tell me about how things are. different for you. Tell me what you. miss. Tell me" And people think, "Oh, they're just going to stir up all the. stuff. They're just going to ruminate. This isn't helpful.". You need to give them a place where they.

can feel understood. And you can say One. strategy that might be helpful is you. can give yourself 30 minutes a day. to go through all the things you miss, everything that sucks, how horrible it. is. You get that 30 minutes so that the. rest of the day they're not ruminating. cuz every time they catch themselves. thinking about it, they say, "Wait a. minute. At 6:00, I get to do this. non-stop for 30 minutes." And so, if you. can hold it, you're you rewire your. nervous system neurologically. This. actually happens. Where.

that pathway gets interrupted. If we can. put a stop sign up between the feeling. and the behavior, which is the. rumination. I feel sad. Oh, now I'm. going to ruminate on this. We put a stop. sign up and say, "I get to go there. later." Then later, when we start having. more of these feelings, we have a stop. sign that we're used to now. Now we're. wired that way. So, we put more time. between the thought and the rumination. As you know, Whoop are sponsors of this. podcast and I'm an investor in the.

company. And last month I had the chance. to sit down with Kristen Holmes. She's. the VP of performance at Whoop and I. learned so much from our conversation. about circadian rhythms and things like. sleep. Studies show that for every 45. minutes of sleep that that you accrue, that your decision-making ability will. drop by up to 10%. And when you're. chronically under-slept, you'll only be. a fraction of the person, the fraction. of the boss, partner, friend, manager. that you can be. That's why I'm obsessed. with Whoop, which not just tracks, but. coaches you on how to get better at.

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the deepest human level, is it about You know, you talked about. the the bigger picture, the loss of the. future, etc. in the past. Is the fundamental reason we have. heartbreak as a device built inside of. us because we are creatures that need. connection and it's a mechanism to make. us stay connected and avoid becoming. disconnected? You literally could not. survive in early societies without being.

part of the group. You had to belong. If you did not. belong, you couldn't survive. You. wouldn't get food, you wouldn't get. shelter, you wouldn't survive. So, belonging is just hardwired in us. It's. It's something that keeps us alive. And we actually do need it to stay alive. even now. And what I mean by that is you. take for example when they did these. studies and they looked at babies who. were in orphanages and they thought all. they need is they need they need food. they need you know they need to get they. need to be fed they need to be nourished.

they need to have their diaper changed. they need those things. These babies. didn't develop and many of them died. It's called failure to thrive because. they weren't held. They weren't held. They needed love. They literally died from lack of love. They just they couldn't they couldn't. survive no matter how much you could. they just stopped eating. They. failure to thrive. They wouldn't meet. their developmental milestones. This. happens this happens in really traumatic. childhoods even. Um so you actually. cannot live without love. You need some.

kind of love. It doesn't have to be. romantic love but you need love. So we need that. So our main goal in. life is to love and be loved. We may. think it's about success and it's about. appearance and all the things that we. see on social media. We may think that's. what life is about and everything that. our culture sells us but ultimately what. we need is we need love. We need to love. and we need to be loved. And so when. that gets cut off we forget that we have. other people who love us. Um we forget everything else everything. just feels extremely.

black or white. It's like I I was loved and then I. wasn't loved. And that's how it's going to feel for a. little while. Mhm. It's scary. It's scary because so much. of your work is centered on connection. at like the fundamental level and we're. living in a world that feels like it's. getting more and more disconnected than. ever before. Um if you go back a couple of decades. young people used to see their friends. once a week or twice a week about about. 80% of peop- people did. Now it's.

getting down to about 30 40% which is. really really crazy. I did a talk on stage the other day and. and there was five 600 people in the. audience and a kid sat to my far bottom. left here raised his hand and his. question in front of 600 people was. essentially I'm lonely and how do I make. friends? Mhm. He sat in a room with 700 people. that are his exact age and he's asking. me in front of all of them which I I. respect. He's asking me the question how do I. make friends? A lot of people ask that. A lot of men come up to me and whisper.

it to me at talks. They'll say it to me. so they'll they'll make cuz we film a. lot. They'll come up really close to me. and and basically express that. They'll. say it in my DMs. How do I make friends? Yeah. I get that all the time to the. podcast to the column. That is one of. the most frequent questions is I'm. lonely how do I make connections how do. I make friends from younger people. especially but older people too and I. think that it's really frightening. because when I watch my son who's 18. um. people think look going back to your.

graph that they are quote seeing their. friends because they're sending pictures. of themselves back and forth on Snapchat. to their friends and they think that. that's socializing but it's so. different. We learned this during COVID. that there's such a difference between. being in a room with someone. and you know being mediated by a screen. but they're not even having. conversations like you would if you were. with your friend. Things happen you have. shared experiences you're doing things. together conversation just more.

naturally flows. Um they're literally. you know they're sending texts to each. other that are just emojis or you know a. picture of this. They're not really. learning. So it's not just how do I meet. friends but it's how do I be in. friendship with someone? And it's hard. because a lot of people aren't. interested in doing that. Like if you. said at that age you know let's hang out. sometimes people will but really more. people are just. on their phones 24/7 and they think.

they're super social but they're not. It's like the difference between. vulnerability online and true. vulnerability. So a lot of people in. fact I was just on Instagram and I saw. somebody saying. I'm going to be so vulnerable. I see. this all the time. I'm going to be so. vulnerable with all of you and share. this thing and. all their followers say you know that. was so brave and and lots of heart. emojis and all of that. That's not. vulnerability to put that out on a. public platform. True vulnerability is.

what this kid was asking you which is. when you are face to face with someone. if you're with your partner or a close. friend or a family member and you want. to share something you need in the. relationship or something that you feel. shame about or something that is scary. for you to take the mask off and. and share with somebody. That's true. vulnerability because the stakes are. high. What is this person going to think. of me again going back to I need to be.

loved. We all need to be loved. What is. this person going to think of me? How. will they love me if they know the truth. of who I am this thing that I'm about to. share? Very different from sharing it on. Instagram or. TikTok or whatever. So I think that it's. really important that we as adults look. at how much face time do we have face. time in person time do we have with. people? Are we really prioritizing that. and are we modeling that for the next. generation? What would you have said to. him? Cuz what I ended up saying to him.

cuz it really took me off guard. No one. had asked me that obviously in front of. a huge group of people. I said to him um. what you've just done. do more of that. And what I meant by. that is he had been so vulnerable and. open and I've come to learn that. vulnerability in and of itself is a. magnet not a repellent that we think it. is. So I I said do more of that but I I. thought maybe that's not the best. possible answer I could have given him. I love that answer. That's a great. answer. I also might have said um turn. to the I want everybody in this room to.

turn to the person on your right. and introduce yourself to them. and ask them about one thing that they. want you to know about them. Because. that's how you're going to start making. friends. We don't do that anymore. Yeah but we can. You see they're simple. things. It's not like you know people. say it feels so overwhelming. How do I. make friends? And they think they're going to have to. learn all these tactics and techniques. when really it's just about be curious. Ask someone about themselves. And the people who are receptive to that.

they might become your friends. People. who aren't I'm not really interested in. them. Doesn't really matter. Lori we have a closing feature on this. podcast where the last guest leaves a. question for the next guest not knowing. who they're going to be leaving it for. Ooh. Ooh this is a fantastic question. If you had 60 days left on Earth. what would be the first and last thing. that you'd do? Mhm. Hug my son.

No question. It's simple for me. There are so many things that I would I. would like to do but I think that if you. read maybe you should talk to someone. you'll see that what I did was I made. sure that I'm already doing the things. that I want to do now. instead of putting them off for later. So there's nothing that that I would be. doing in these 60 days that would be. drastically different from what I'm. doing now and I think that that's where. I'm trying to get people in therapy is.

to live the life that you want to be. living now so that you don't when you. get these questions about if you only. had 60 days left you're not like I would. do things entirely differently. Why? What are you waiting for? We shouldn't have to wait. Lori thank you so much. Thank you for. writing a book. There's this quote on. the front of the book which I think. perfectly encapsulates. how many people will feel if they. get this book which is rarely has a book. challenge me to see myself in an. entirely new light and was at the same. time laugh out loud funny and utterly.

absorbing. It's a quote by Katie Couric. on the front of the book. And the. remarkable thing about all of your work. is that it's both so incredibly. accessible. but it it's so clearly built on real. world experiences that I think so many. people can relate to and you really tend. to focus on the fundamentals of a. problem not the things that just appear. on the surface. And an ability to get to. the fundamental of the problem I think. is a really magical thing to be able to. do. And I just wish there was you know I. would. I wish you could be everyone's therapist.

but I think the book can be if you can't. be because you only have a certain. amount of time in the day. It's really. really remarkable the mission that. you're on and how many people you're. serving by your column by your podcast. by the books that you've written um and. everything that you continue to do. Thank you so much. Appreciate it. Thank you. [Music]. Let's talk about Zoe who you may know. because they're a sponsor of this. podcast and I'm an investor in the. company. You guys know health is my. number one priority. Zoe's growth story.

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