The Subtle Art Of Not Giving A F*ck: Mark Manson | E111

I always felt like an outcast, was. bullied. My big goal in life was like, I. want to be a best-selling author. And. then it happens and. it really [ __ ] with me. We're wired to. want status. We're wired to want to be. beautiful and sexy and to want to. impress others. Like that's never going. to go away. The question is is like, what do you want once that is kind of. removed from the equation? You can. always choose in every moment to see. things in a way that that makes you feel. better. It's not easy. It's actually. really, really hard. But in that sense,

happiness can be a choice. It's just the. question of do you know how to access. it? Mark Manson, the author of one of the best-selling. self-development books of the decade, The Subtle Art of Not Giving a [ __ ] I. read this book many, many years ago and. I learned so much from it. So when they. told me that Mark Manson was in London,

we got in touch quickly and I think this. conversation is going to prove why. He. is one of the most wise, honest, open. individuals I've ever met. And one of. the most remarkable things he says in. this conversation was this smash hit. book which has sold more than 10 million. copies and I know you've seen. everywhere. When that became a success, he lost orientation in his life. Mark's. complete story, the story you've. probably never heard, is immense. He. used to be a picker artist. He then.

became an entrepreneur, which led him to. become a blogger, which led him to. become an author, and he draws on all of. those experiences in one of the most. self-aware ways I've ever seen on this. podcast to deliver actionable insights. to live a better life. He's a guest that. you requested time and time again and. I'm so glad you did. So without further. ado, I'm Steven Bartlett and this is The. Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's. listening. But if you are, then please. keep this to yourself.

Mark, take me back to. Austin, Texas in the 19. 80s-ish time when you were born. Oh god. What was life. What was life like for you? I mean, when I was really young, it was. it was nice. You know, so I grew I grew. up I had a very kind of conventional. suburban.

American childhood. Um. especially when I was younger, you know, so. um I had the house with the yard and all. the kids on the street and. you know, playing soccer and or football. or whatever. Um. So so that was nice. I think. um. where things started to kind of go off. the rails, so to speak, um when you know, when you start hitting. that age 11, 12, 13 and you you start.

your brain develops a little more and. you you start becoming a little bit more. aware of um. norms and and culture and people's. expectations of you and things like. that. Um I grew up in a very I grew up. in the American South. Um so I grew up. very religious, very conservative, uh. and I'm neither of those things. So. um starting around that time, I start. kind of feeling like an oddball, you.

know. Um. I was really in the art and music and uh. books. I read all the time and you know, those values just weren't really. respected a whole lot where I where I. came from. In fact, they were viewed as. suspect. I was going to say on the playground, that doesn't sound like it would be. conducive with fitting in and Yeah. being part of the crew. Yeah, and it. it's um. Yeah, I mean, it it's a very it was a.

very conformist culture. But then. there's also there's a weird thing in. the American South. that um. people are very sensitive to to kind of. like, you know, you think you're better. than me? You think you're smarter You. think you're smart? You think you're. like so good cuz you read this book and. you know, got an A on that test or. whatever. So there's like a weird like. it's actually very toxic, but like. there's kind of a weird judgment that. happens if you're not doing the same. thing the same way as everybody else. So.

yeah, I I I I started to kind of become. like the nerd slash like loner kid. Um. And this was the 90s, so of course I. wore like band t-shirts and and. dressed in all black and like. That's all back in now. Yeah, I know, right? Thank god. Perfect timing. I finally know what's going on again. I'm old enough to know what's going on. again. Um. So yeah, it was it was a weird. adolescence. It was uh it wasn't a it.

wasn't a ton of fun. Um. And I think by the time I was like 14 or. 15, I was just like, I got to get out of. here. I got to I like I got to get to. one of the coasts. Were you bullied in. school? A little bit. A little bit. Um not like. to a dramatic extent, but um. yeah, definitely some like. shitty experiences, for sure. Did you have a lot of friends back then. in school? Uh no. No, I I had a handful of like very, very.

close friends. You know, other other. guys who were weirdos and loners and in. the music and stuff like that. And your. parental dynamics, they were your. parents I read that they got divorced. when you were around that age as well, which is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, um I mean, my my parents. were really good people, but um I would. describe it now as they were doing the. best they could with what they knew, but. their knowledge wasn't. uh.

I guess sufficient to be like fully. functional emotionally. You know, they. came from emotionally dysfunctional. families. So in their head, like giving. 100% like they're giving 100%, but. really their 100% is actually kind of. like, you know, 40, 50% of what the. family needed to like function well. Is. that psychologically or financially? Do. you mean like in terms of like. affection, care, lessons? Is. Primarily emotionally. So like. financially, we were fine. My My dad's.

always been like very successful. But it was it was it was mostly. emotionally, right? So. um I'm trying to think of an example. here. You know, so like kind of this. idea of. you know, my parents were the opposite. of overbearing. They were like probably. too hands-off, right? So it was like one. of those things like if I had a big. event at school or. a big moment. or if like the girl I liked was mean to.

me or something, you know, it's like I. could never go to my mom or dad. Like if. I tried to go to my mom or dad and kind. of like express these things, they just. kind of look at me like, why are you. telling me this? You know? So. um it was a very. stoic and distant and I use the word. stoic not in the not in stoicism, but. like. very kind of cold and distant household. Like we didn't talk much and we. definitely didn't talk about uh feelings. or. insecurities or stuff that me and my.

brother were going through. It was just. kind of like, I can relate to that. Yeah. You know, like never I never had I. still think to this day, well, maybe. actually in the last year, but like my. whole childhood I my mom and dad had no. idea what I was doing with my life. No. idea who I was dating, feeling, nothing. My dad like we didn't I don't think we. had a conversation about anything to do. with school, feelings, you know. So you. kind of like you're like left to your. own devices and the internet Yeah. to. figure this stuff out, which isn't the best tool when you're.

like it's like solving solving the. problem with the same brain that got you. into it is not always the best Yeah. solution. When you zoom out on that. period of your life and you think, what. what kind of like good or bad. foundations were laid for the rest of my. life? What what are those lessons or. foundations that were like for me it was. like insecurity and I thought money. would be everything and I thought. validation from women would be. everything. So my yeah. But. I think if there's one thing. my my family got right when I was young, it was money. So I grew up in with.

wealth, you know. My my father. owns a plastics business. He's been very. successful. So I mean, we we had the big. house and the pool and the nice cars and. everything. And it was interesting. actually because his business really. started to to take off. probably when I was like 8 or 9 years. old. And so we went from kind of like a. I'd say like upper middle class. when I was and then suddenly when I'm. nine, it's like everything gets.

upgraded. You know, we've got BMWs, we've got uh you know, we're flying. first class. Like, you know, so we we. get all the stuff, right? And it. it's interesting because that's pretty. much exactly the time that my parents'. marriage unraveled. and you know, the family kind of fell. apart. So I learned at a very young age. that money doesn't solve it. Like whatever your problem is,

you know, unless your problem is you're. hungry, like money's not going to fix. it. So I was very blessed in that regard. that I got to learn that lesson very. early. Um. So that that you know, we've all. we've all got that that that hole in us. that we try to fill with something. Um and so money was never that for me. For me it was more I think because I was. I was felt like an outcast, um was bullied. to a certain extent. Uh rejected by like.

every girl I ever liked. For me, it was. much more social, you know? So, it's. like I had this desperate need to be. liked, um. to be like the cool guy at the party, to have all the girlfriends. Um like. that was my my big weakness. So, you go. off to college. Mhm. What do you study? How does that go for you in terms of. social interactions? So, one of the best things I ever did, you know, I I went I went to school in. Boston. And Boston's completely.

different culture and environment. Um. and it it's. it was wonderful for me because it it. suddenly it's like the things I care. about are now. cared about by the people around me as. well. So, it's like they like that. you're smart and they like that you've. read all these books and they they like. that you're into like cool music or like. some obscure band. So, it it was very. socially transformative. Like I I I went. from kind of being like the weirdo. nerdy guy to to like having tons of.

friends and. going to a bunch of parties and and and. having a really good social life. And. so, for me, that was wonderful. It built. a lot of confidence, but of course, like. any insecurity, I overdid it. Um so, I. was that guy who was literally partying. five, six nights a week. You know, like for like year after year. after year. You know, I was I was always. at the party. And did that compromise your academic.

ambitions or Uh a little bit. Um. you know, I I kind of I guess I didn't. do this consciously, but I kind of made. the calculus in my head that like. like the most important thing about. college is that you. is that you finish, you know, right? It's like. no job interview's actually going to ask. you what you got what grade you got on. your history exam your second year. Uh. all they care is that you you have you. have the degree. So, in my head I'm like. as long as I get the degree, as long as. I I'm safe in terms of like actually.

finishing, um I'm okay. So, I I could. kind of manage. okay grades while. you know, drinking every night. So, I I I made it work. And out of college, your first job I I. how did you describe it as kind of. nightmarish in like a finance job job. that you didn't like? So, I've had I've. had one. real job uh in my life. Um.

I went into finance. Uh so, I I used to play a lot of poker. in school and. uh and all the guys I played poker with. were going to go in the finance. They. wanted to work on Wall Street and do all. this stuff and. I was like, "Cool. Like I'll do that.". You know? It just seemed like kind of like the. logical next step. And um. I I got hired at an investment bank in. Boston and I went to work and I remember. it was like.

it was 10:00 a.m. on the first day. I. was doing training. And it was 10:00. a.m. on the first day. I'd been there. for like maybe 2 hours, 2 and 1/2 hours. And I remember thinking to myself, "How long do I have to stay here before. it's like okay to quit?". On the first day. first day. And then my second thought was, "This is a really bad sign." You know, it's like if I'm having this thought on. my first day, this is a terrible sign. So, I lasted about 6 weeks. Wow. That.

was your first and only Yeah. job. Yeah. I um. Yeah, I mean, I I the corporate world. and I didn't really fit. And and I've. since learned that that particular. company. was kind of notorious in in the finance. world for for having like. a a soul-destroying culture. Um. But it was funny cuz I you know, I was. basically just like a. a data monkey. You know, I was entry. level. So, like I'm just punching.

numbers in the spreadsheets and stuff. all day. And uh. and there's this kind of awkward gap. in the US markets. Like there's like an. hour or two between when one market. closes, when like the S&P closes and. then the Nasdaq closes like an hour, hour and a half later. And so, you'd. always have this like awkward hour where. there was you're kind of just waiting. around waiting for the next market to. close. So, I'd bring books. You know, I'm I'm a book nerd. So, I'd sit there, I'd have a stack of books on my desk and. I'd sit there and I'd read books in that.

hour. And uh I remember my boss came by. and he's like, "You can't do that.". I was like, "What do you mean? I mean, these are like finance books, too, right? Like I'm like, yeah." And he's. like, "You can't do that." And I was I. was like, "Why not?" He's like, "You. need to be working on something.". I was like, "What? There's nothing to. work on. Like this is We're waiting for. the market to close." And and he's like, "Yeah, but you can't you can't be seen. doing that. Like that's. you got to be keep yourself busy." I was. like, "What the [ __ ] man? Like I. remember, too, uh my first week there,

cuz I had messed around with like some. some computer coding and stuff in. college and and I noticed that like a. lot of the data entry that we were. doing, you could easily program a script. to do it. automatically, right? It's like. probably an hour or two of my days like. not even necessary. And so, I remember I went to my boss and. I was like I was like, "Hey, you you. realize like we can get a script to do. this, right? Like I could probably. you know, spend a couple days figure out. do some research.

get it to work.". And he was like, "No. No, go back and put your numbers. in." You know, like he. had no interest whatsoever. You know, in. my head I'm like, "I got this great. idea. My boss is going to be so. impressed. I'm going to like, you know, get moved up or whatever." And I I just. got shot down. And so, it was just very. clear like. um. I don't know. It just wasn't. Is it cultural issue there there wasn't. it because Yeah. boss has probably got. that from somewhere above where he. doesn't really give a [ __ ] about. optimizing the efficiency of this. company. He just cares about getting his.

check and then. Yeah. it probably trickles up the line. Yeah. Yeah, and I I remember kind of like the. So, one of one of the books I read at. the time was Tim Ferriss's 4-Hour. Workweek. And uh. that book was life-changing for me, but. it's funny. I've always had a little bit. I've always given Tim a little bit of. [ __ ] about it because. it was it was a bit of a double-edged. sword because the 4-Hour Workweek makes. it sound so easy that it it kind of like.

I remember at the time I'm like, "Wow, this is. I could do that. Like I'll do that next. week. Like why why am I still here?" You. know? So, it it's he made it sound so. easy that it kind of gave me the courage. to quit. Um but then of course, after I. quit and I actually started to try to. build a business online and realized how. insanely hard it is, I became a little. bit bitter. I'm like, "Damn you, Tim. Ferriss. This is not easy. I'm never going to work 4 hours.". What was that business you tried to. build after you quit? So, I.

I originally tried to create some. e-commerce businesses um. and. try. basically kind of your classic spammy. SEO blogs uh with affiliate links and. stuff like that. And it was it was. really like the whole goal was like. just get to 2K a month and then we're. going to Argentina. Like that was that. was the And then we're going to party. until our Oh, wow. like our face falls. off. And that that was the whole goal at.

the time. I think it was 22 or 23. And. um. and it's funny because back then, this. is like 2008, 2009, back then, uh the. way you got traffic to your like. blogging was new and and kind of like. the big new thing. And so, if you wanted. traffic to your website to sell your. stuff, you needed to blog. And so, I. started my blogs. as a way to just get traffic to like. sell this stuff. And so, one of the. websites I I was doing was was dating.

advice. And I was promoting a bunch of. dating e-books written by a bunch of. people. Um and. and that that one started to take off. That one started to develop like a. really large audience. And so, after. about a year or two, I realized I'm. like, "I kind of suck at this e-commerce. thing, but the blogging is going really. well. So, And this kind of started your. your. journey into the pickup artistry world, right? So, tell me about that cuz before we. started recording, I shared a secret.

that I've never shared before, which is. that I also found myself falling into. the. pickup artistry world when I was in my. early 20s because of Neil Strauss and. then Mystery and then every other book. that I read and every other video. documentary and YouTube video that I. consumed and torrent that I downloaded. and forum that I scraped. Um. but when I when I read that in your. story, I found that really really. fascinating because. um I suspected the incentives and the. appeal of that world were probably quite. similar to me in the sense of me being. quite insecure and.

um seeking. well, yeah, seeking validation from. women maybe. So, tell me about your. journey into pickup artistry. I. took to it pretty pretty hard and pretty. quickly. I think it really scratched. that that itch. uh. that of that insecurity I had, you know, from my childhood. Um. You know, looking back on on the pickup. stuff, it's really interesting. and and it's funny because it's.

over the years, I've met so many. talented and successful guys. Like when. you told me that you were into it, it. I kind of I wasn't even surprised. Like. I've met so many talented successful. guys in the last 5, 10 years. who are like, "Oh, yeah, I was I was I. was I was in that [ __ ] too." You know, it's like we kind of like say it under. our breath. And I think it it. Here's my theory about what what that. whole thing was and why it happened. When I look back. in the 2000s,

self-help and personal development was. still very different back then. Like it. wasn't socially acceptable. for men to. kind of get into, you know, feelings and trauma and and. healing and recovery and all this stuff. Like it was still it was still something. kind of shameful. Like your your your. buddies would make fun of you for it if. they found out that you were like if you. went out and read, um, you know, like a Louise Hay book or, uh, you know, like I'm okay, you're okay.

Like if if like your buddy caught you. with one of those books in your bedroom, he'd start ripping on you for it. And. and. there was something about making it. about. dating sex and dating that made it. socially okay. Like it's it's. Now it's like a cool thing to do. But. really what it was is it was just. self-help in disguise. Like most of it, you know, for every pickup line or. whatever there was, like. there were there was really useful. advice about, uh, you know, social.

skills, self-esteem, uh, confidence, um, taking care of yourself, you know, hygiene, thing. grooming, you know, and and it's so. there was like so much good life advice. there and then but there was also so. much bad advice there, too. So, it was. this very mixed bag, but I think it was. just a lot of guys like you and me who. were. were damaged essentially and were trying.

to to figure it out. We're trying to. kind of heal ourselves, but there was no other outlet available. Um, today it's it's okay I think it's. way more socially acceptable for guys to. be like, yeah, I want to work on myself. I want to like, you know, It's cool now. get in touch. with my feelings. Yeah, and be a mature. person and and all this stuff. Yeah, it's it's like something people respect, but back then it it was still taboo. And at specifically at that age for a. guy, I'm speaking for myself here, but I.

you're you're trying to figure out how. to get laid. It feels like this this. this quest in which no one has ever. provided you with the blueprint or the. road map. And then someone whispers in. your ear at some point that there's like. a code. Yeah. Like a simple solution to this complex. problem. Yeah. And and then you read it. and you get into it and it appears to. work. And you see men just like you. having success in that because they've. kind of learned the code or the the you. know, they've been they've learned the. the instruction manual. So, it feels like it solves this tremendous.

problem, but you're totally right. It. actually helps you resolve a ton of. things from the playground about. self-esteem and why did that guy always. get the girls and I didn't, right? Like. the the natural and. and and then things just started to make. sense and that made it really sticky and. addictive for me. Um, But you did you have Were you in a. relationship around that time? Uh, I had a relationship, yeah, for for. a couple years around that time. And. ended badly? Bad breakup? Uh,

So so my first relationship pre-pickup. ended horribly. She ended up cheating on. me and leaving me for another guy. Um, and so that was part of, you know, it was my first serious. girlfriend, first love. Um, and and it ended basically as badly as a. relationship can end. Um, so I was. heartbroken and I was also angry. And so. that kind of also the pickup stuff. really spoke to that of like this is why. you had your heartbroken. Um,

this is what you need to do instead. How. did that impact you? Cuz we're talking. here about like I think we're talking. about feelings of like rejection and. self-worth cuz I remember my first. relationship that ended really badly. The harm was all me telling myself that. I'm not good enough and I'm a scumbag. and I'm maybe not pretty enough or smart. enough or masculine enough. Yeah. And that was all the harm. It was inside. here. Um, Yeah, it's it's funny because I look. back on that. episode of my life. I I think if that.

happened me to me today, I would. I would handle it fine. I mean I'd be. upset obviously and hurt, but I would. handle it. fine. I I agree with you. You know, for. me when I look back, my understanding of. relationships, love and relationships at. that time, uh, I call it the Disney understanding. You know, it was very naive. It was, uh, you know, Prince Charming on the. white horse and, you know, the princess. and you live happily ever after, right?

Um, it was actually a very unhealthy. relationship. She and I were both very, um, just very dysfunctional and and immature. and we treated each other poorly. And. but we were in love and when you're that. age and you're naive, like you think. love is the only thing that matters. That you're you're you're willing to. pretty much tolerate. like any terrible treatment towards each. other cuz you're in love. Like it's the. love will figure it out, right? And so I.

think a lot of the pain for me, it wasn't just her leaving. Like that was painful, but it was also. having that kind of Disney understanding. of love and relationships completely. shattered. Like everything I. cuz in my head I was like an amazing. boyfriend and I did everything right, you know? So, to have that blown up in. my face, um, and and come that realization that like. everything I thought was true. is not.

and I have no idea what's true. Um, like that's a really really hard. place to be. And so that that was. probably at least 50% of the difficulty. as well is just trying to like pick up. the pieces and figure out like, wait, you know, how what is love? What is a. relationship? How are you supposed to be. towards each other? I have no clue. But. you have a clue now. Yeah. To tell me. Yeah, I mean well in in pickup was. helpful in that regard. I mean pickup. gave me a lot of. bad.

Again, there was a lot of bad advice, but there was a lot of good advice and. I think it's. Look, I I I think. people who, you know, every once in a while you meet. somebody who who like. they marry their high school sweetheart, you know, they meet when they're 14, they get married and and they live. happily ever Like that is. it's very rare and people who if that. happens to somebody it's it's a very. fortunate thing. I think for most of us.

what we have to do is. is. you you go through a number of. relationships that just blow up in your. face and you have to have them blow up. in your face to understand. what's healthy, what's not, what do you. need as as a person and what do you not. need, and also how. to give to others. Relationships require skill set and. you can't develop those skill Like if.

you're if you're. you come from a background like us, like. you don't grow up being taught that. skill set. Like my parents didn't have. that skill set either. So, you have to. learn it through trial and error like. you learn anything else. It just so. happens that the trial and error of. romantic relationships is. unbelievably painful. I was going to say. No one wants to do that. Like yeah, lessons no one wants to learn. Yeah. So, what are what are those those, um, fundamental characteristics then of a. good relationship? I've heard you write.

about a few of them, things like respect. and What are those things that you've. come to learn now. that you wish you knew then? I think. every, you know, every. healthy relationship with somebody else, it starts with a healthy relationship. with yourself, right? So, if you don't. respect yourself, uh, and if you don't value your own. thoughts and well-being and health, you're never going to be able to set the. boundaries, you know, you're you're just. going to tolerate poor treatment from. others because you're going to think. it's justified. So,

you know, people tend to have it. backwards. They think like if I can just. find a great relationship, then I'll. feel great about myself. But that's just it's a recipe for. disaster. Like you got to get straight. with yourself and then once you're. straight with yourself, that enables you. to have that healthy relationship, to be. able to share it with somebody else. So, like to that's paramount, totally key. Like you got to get your. own [ __ ] straight. You got to like. whatever baggage you got rummaging. around up there, whatever trauma you've. got in your background,

you got to start working on it. And then you need to be able to approach. the relationship with a certain amount. of vulnerability. Like you need to, you know, again, most of us by default. when we find that somebody that we're. we're crazy about or who's crazy about. us, our our natural inclination is to. start hiding all the ugly stuff. They're. like, oh, well, if she doesn't know that. like I did this or if if I really like. kind of think that, you know, then. she'll love me. It's like, no, you have to.

come to the relationship completely open. saying like, hey, here's my list of issues cuz we all got. them. Um, I'm working on them cuz you're. working on yourself. You know, hopefully we can work on them. together cuz obviously they're going to. have their issues, too. And so just that. open dialogue is kind of necessary to. even get things started. That's really. where the trust and respect comes from. because like you can't. Like if you're not sharing.

every aspect of yourself, then you're. never going to trust the other person. Like if you're always kind of hiding. something, you're never going to believe. that they are they're actually loving. you. They're they're believing. the thing you're portraying to them. And. so you're you're never going to trust. it. You're like, oh, well, yeah, they're. into me now, but it's cuz they don't. know about this thing over here. But if you just come 100% with. everything on the table, that's where that's where the trust is. is you're able to start building the. trust and and actually, you know, start. from a healthy place.

So, what you said at the start the first. point I I I mean both points were. perfect, but the first point really it. made me think about a million people I. know that are in the mindset that if. they can find a relationship, it will. help fix their problems, but they are. fundamentally like not ready for a. relationship. So, they go through this. like vicious negative reinforcing cycle. of like they weren't ready for a. relationship, they got into one, tolerated toxic treatment, smashed their. self-esteem even more, which meant that. they were even less ready for a. relationship, but meant that they wanted. one more because they they wanted to.

fill the the crack in their self-esteem. with a person, and you see them on this. this sort of like repeated rejection. cycle of these toxic relationships, and. it's like going downwards cuz it's. smashing their self-esteem more and more. each time, which is making them want a. relationship more and more, but making. them less capable of having one. And you. And I watch it play out on social media. I'm like, "Jenny I'm like, Jenny stop.". I'm like, "Oh, she's got another. boyfriend.". 6 months later I'm like, "Oh, no. It's. Yeah, yeah, yeah." And And but so cuz. social media what it's doing is Jenny's.

waking up in the morning and she's. seeing the car like Kylie Jenner looks. happy on that yacht with like with her. boyfriend in this So, these happy people. in front of me are happy because of. their perfect relationships. And it's that awful spiral. So, to say. to someone, "Work on yourself." Yeah. It feel It's like, "Well, then It's the. equivalent of like. telling people who want to get a. six-pack to like eat vegetables. Yeah. It's exactly It's correct, but it's the.

last thing anybody wants to hear. It's. like, "No, no, no, no, no. Give me the secret 5-day workout routine. that's going to you know." It's like, "No, there's there isn't one." Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting because. these things that they work There's like. a there's they work in an upward cycle. and and a downward cycle, you know, and. you just described like the downward. spiral. And but it also works the other. way around, too, because. once you're working on yourself, and. like the work on yourself never ends, right? So, like once you are working on.

yourself and you find somebody who's. working on themselves and you're able to. communicate about it, then you make each other better. Yes. Which makes you feel even more confident. and and more proud of yourself and and. and more. uh more solid in who you are, which then just enables you to work on. yourself even more. And so, it creates. an upward spiral as well. Like one way. I told a friend a couple years ago. cuz he was kind of having trouble. He. was like, "You know, I just. Like you know, our emotions blind us,

right? So, it's like. getting in that new relationship, like. falling for that person, like it feels. so good. And generally the way the way. the brain works is like when something. feels good, we convince ourselves that. it is good. And when something feels. bad, we convince ourselves that it is. bad. So, he was like, "Yeah, it just it. feels so good that like I really think. like. that that yeah, we are being honest and. open and we are working on ourselves and. and and I think it's healthy." And then. 6 months go by and it and I realize that. it's completely toxic and a disaster.

And so, I told him I said, "You know, the the best way I can describe it is. when you're in a. an unhealthy relationship or a. relationship that's not quite working. right. Like you're you're not completely. being open or on the same page, it feels. like pushing a boulder up a hill. Like. like you're always pushing hard, you. know, you feel like you need to always. be pushing to like kind of keep things. stable and in place. Whereas. a healthy relationship, it feels like. pushing a rock down a hill, you know,

it's like you just give a little bit bit. of a tug and it just goes. You know, like you don't at some point. it doesn't even feel like you're putting. effort into it anymore. I mean, you are. working on it, but it's like. every amount of effort that you put in. is immediately being matched by the. other person. And so, it's like. you no long you no longer feel like. you're just fighting constantly to like. keep things. stable. And you'll pick a part of your phase. where you learn these lessons, and.

eventually you came out the other end as. we all did. Yeah. My girlfriend's listening now. We. all have come out. We all We're all well out of that phase. Let it be known. But you eventually you come out of it. and you know, you write you write about. how you realize that wasn't. a fulfilling long-term way to live. Yeah. Just you know, chasing women. around nightclubs trying to pick them up. and ultimately trying to sleep with. them, right? You slept with a lot of. women at this point and you.

you decided it wasn't the life for you. No, what what I started to realize. you know, in in this realization. happened on a number of dimensions. around the same time, you know, cuz cuz. the business started doing well and I. started traveling a lot. You know, there. generally anything. So, in in in Subtle Art, I talk about I. make a distinction between happiness and. highs. And. this distinction it was it was pretty. profound for me because.

we tend to. we tend to mistake highs for happiness, right? So, uh. meeting meeting an attractive person or. sleeping with an attractive person for. the first time, that's a high. Um making. a bunch of money, that's a high. Uh. having. you know, winning an award or an. accolade or going to like some exotic. vacation, putting on Instagram, getting. a ton of likes, like that's a high. And. highs are nice. Like we all we all love. having highs and and we we do need a.

certain amount of highs in our life, but. highs are not happiness. Happiness is actually. kind of the inversion of that in a lot. of ways. Happiness is. often times actually unpleasant, you. know, happiness. it it's it's not the check that comes, you know, from the successful product launch. It's. the work that goes into that product. launch. Happiness is is the. satisfaction. It's you know, it's not.

like the peak. the super romantic date. Happiness is. being able to like sit at home on the. couch and not say anything and be. completely satisfied. Like it's. Happiness is is actually. often very boring. And so, in my 20s, you know, it started. with women and parties and then it kind. of went to business, you know, I wanted. to grow a big successful business and. then I did that and I made a bunch of. money and then I traveled around the. world and I lived in all these crazy. exotic places and. um. and I started to realize that like the.

these are just highs. And the thing. about highs is that. the more you get, the more you need to get that same. feeling, right? So, if you've never left your home country. before, that first trip is like. life-changing. It's incredibly. impactful. But if you've been to 50 countries, going to the 51st is you're just like, "Ugh.". Yeah, that flight sucked. Like you know, like you're complaining about the taxi. driver. Like.

you know, cuz it's you need that much. more to get that same hit. Um and so, it. becomes a very dangerous thing to to to. kind of. put all of your focus on these things. because of that diminishing returns. It. it takes more and more effort to kind of. achieve that same sense of satisfaction. or or. pleasure. Um. So, I really started asking myself like, you know, what is. what are the things that I'm willing to.

give up? What you also don't realize is. that you're you're get you have to give. up a lot for those highs. So, like. if you do want to party all the time and. sleep with lots of people, you're giving. up the opportunity to have a stable. relationship with somebody for a long. period of time. You're giving up. the comfort that comes with that or the. security that comes with that. If you're. traveling all the time and living all. over the world, like you're giving up. the stability of a community of um. knowing your neighbors, of. you know, having being able to see your.

friends consistently. Like there's all. these subtle unsexy things that you're. giving up to chase the highs. that you don't really realize you're. giving them up until you've. given them up for a long time. So, I. started to realize that and and kind of. like re like rethink my whole. understanding of what. happiness and success is in general. So, I'm I'm keen to get into the details. there, but I again jumping ahead a. little bit, is that a.

well, is that an easy thing to do? That would. be my question because because when. you've got that childhood forcing you of. like the insecurities and the social. acceptance and that's always going to be. in the in you know, and it can rear its. ugly head if you're if those kind of. insecurities are somewhat triggered as. even as an adult and it can say, you. know, you need to fit in, you need to. get by that thing, you need to travel, you need to be more successful. But then. you've got this new set of like. conscious values you're describing where. you're saying, "Well, no, I value these. things." But then that little demon on. your shoulder saying, "Buy the [ __ ].

Lamborghini.". But you know what I mean? Like how do. you. Well, I I think a lot of it is. you know, I I think a lot of value like. changing your values and again, I I. think I say this in Subtle Art, like you. can't just sit on the couch and think. your way out of your values. Like. you need to go live them and then have. them fail you. Really. And for me that. that what that looked like. you know, going out and and kind of. living this fantasy life of partying all.

around the world and hooking up with all. these girls. and then just having that fail me and. realize that it's actually very empty. and Uh, and and realize after a years. that you're you're literally not keeping. in touch with all you know, all these. people who you thought like, "Oh my god, we're going to be friends forever." And. then. 3 years go by and you realize you're not. keeping in touch with any of these. people. And then you go on Facebook and. you see like. that now they're married and they just. had a kid and they're so happy and. you're like, "Shit, I'm like still doing.

the same thing. Like I'm still. drinking on a beach with the same people. um, for like the third year straight. Like something's not right here. Um, and in the case of money, it's like so I. think sometimes people have to buy that. Lamborghini and realize it doesn't fix. anything. Yeah. That was me. Yeah. Like it's fun for a week or a. month or like you get you get get to go. show your friends or your parents or. whatever. And then they don't really care. You're.

so you're so right in what you said. earlier as well what linked to that. point is like I remember buying the big. house like seven-bedroom house with a. tennis court. out in the countryside. The cost was I. was now an hour and a half away from my. friends. They couldn't come anyway. I was there for 9 months before I was. like put I said to the landlord like. please let me out. And I moved into this like one bed right. in the middle of the city because in. fact, I'd exchanged like the status egos. I I bought into the status and ego of. the having this big house, but the cost. was no one could come and see it. I was.

lonely as [ __ ] It meant that my commute. to work was 3 hours there and back. It's. like a terrible insecure decision at 21. years old, right? So. And then but I had to do it. Like I like. Steve had to find like taste that. himself and have it fail me as you say. So. I know I'm jumping ahead again, but. Will's got a great story in his book. Um, so For context, you wrote Will. Smith's brand new book called Will. Yep. So I have to. Um, so Will Will had a hit record when. he was a senior in high school. He was. 17. And of course.

he went out and bought like four. different cars and bunch of motorcycles, bought a house. And uh, here's this great moment where. he he lined up all of his cars and. motorcycles outside his new house and. then invited his dad over. And uh, his. dad shows up. And he's like, "Yo, what's up, pops? Like what do you think?" You know? And. his dad's like, "Are these all yours?" And he's like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah. What do you think?". And his dad goes, "Man, what the [ __ ] you doing? You only. got one ass.

What do you need four cars for?". Yeah. And sure enough like 2 years later, he. went broke, you know, cuz he's he spent. all of his money. Yeah. He spent all of his money and didn't pay. taxes. So that's a bad combination. Damn, you you really have you know, and. it's I always think this cuz I write a. lot of quotes and I wrote a book and. stuff and I always say in my writing. like my words will never overcome your. insecurities. That thing that kid said. to you when you were 7 years old or your.

dad said to you will always be a. stronger force in your life than some. 140 character quote that I say about how. you should be living your life. Go do the work, right? Um, and learn that for yourself. Why should. you drink Huel? We're going into the. fourth quarter of the year. Diets are. dropping off. We're becoming lazier and. lazier. And what tends to happen when we. when our diets dip and we we start to. become less. compelled to go to the gym is yeah, we. get out of shape. We start to feel low. energy. We start to binge eat bad.

things. And Huel is the antidote. It's. nutritionally complete. So you get. everything you need for your diet in a. drink. You get your 20 g of proteins. You're going to get your 26 vitamins and. vitamins and minerals. It's low sugar, high in fiber. It really. is the cure to a lot of the health. issues that we see in our personal. lives, but in wider society. If you've. never tried it, all I'll ask you to do. is give it a try. And if you're like me, then you will like the world berry ready. to drink. You'll like the mac and. cheese, which is just selling like.

absolutely crazy unsurprisingly. Um, you'll like the cinnamon. And you'll like the banana flavor. Those. are my recommendations. I know a lot of. people love the chocolate flavor. Let me know. Try it. Get yourself. healthy and send me a message on. Instagram. Tag me on Instagram as well. on your stories if you do try it out cuz. I I sometimes upload those tags. And let me know which is your favorite. flavor. Can't wait to hear from you. One of the things you say is um, that. your one rule for life is each person. must never be treated only as a means to.

some other end, but must also be treated. as an end themselves. Yeah. Please tell me what that means. It's a little it's a little philosoph. actually comes from from. the philosopher Kant. Um, it basically means that like. I think anything that is. is. unethical or unhealthy. it's because we're not we're treating. another person as a means to another. end, right? So if you're.

kind of using somebody for their money. or if you're manipulating somebody to. try to like get a job or a promotion or. something. Um, or if you're just straight up like. stealing from somebody or lying to them. Like in all of those cases, you're treat. you're valuing some external thing. whether it's money or a car prestige. more than the person themselves. And. I. to me, it's just kind of like. when I look at every.

useful piece of advice whether in. personal development. or. just how to be a good person, you know, how to be an ethical person. It all. comes right back down to that rule. Like. you. everything you do, it needs to be. ultimately for the betterment of. yourself or others. Like making yourself. a better person and making other people. better, too. And anytime you deviate from that. you're either going to.

get into ethical trouble. or you're going to get into. toxic relationships. Like if I've got a. car that I'm selling and I know that. it's faulty. Yeah. But I invite someone over and I say this. is the best car in the world. Please buy. it. Yeah. It's unethical and you're you're. using that person as a means to an end. In a personal development context, it's. like if you're dating somebody not. really cuz you like them, but because. you want to impress your friends. then you're using that person as a means. to some other end, right? And it's like. that relationship is going to go south.

really fast. Like it's going to get. ugly. So it's not just ethical, it's. practical. You know, Kant meant it like. said it in ethical terms, but I just. kind of realized that it's like. all good personal development advice is. essentially the same thing. It's like. treat people well. Like put place people. before money, before. you know, accolades, before attention or. status. Like always put people first. And uh,

and everything else kind of takes care. of itself. And that's the long-term. game, right? That's the the it's cuz in. the short-term you might sell the car, but in the long-term your reputational. damage and your general sense of feeling. inside and. Yeah. Which which you see all the time in in. internet businesses, right? Like it's. you see kind of those. sleazy sales letters. that that are pushing a questionable. product. And sure, maybe they they have a big. like $5 million launch. But they've just completely destroyed.

you know, eventually all those people. who bought are going to realize that the. product is [ __ ] and they're never going. to buy from you again. And so you've. Yeah, you made a bunch of millions of. dollars up front, but you've completely. destroyed your brand and you're going to. have to start over from scratch. Whereas. if you kind of start with the people in. mind. and you focus on the good product, the. good relationship, giving people good. value. you make less money up front, but then. those people stick with you. forever. Product after product after.

product. You um, I was I was watching your conversation. with with Tom Bilyeu and I found it. really. really interesting and important because. one of the things you talk about when. we're talking about you know, deciding. what you want to do with your life. whether it's a business or you want to. be a pick-up artist or whatever it is is. this the importance of asking the. question why? And in the society and. culture we live in especially one that's. so driven by comparison where your. values are almost being handed to you by. Instagram and the Kardashians like this. is how this is what you should value. Like I almost I've almost felt I I.

remember one day a kid came up to me. after I did this like big talk on stage. and he said, "I want to be a public. speaker." And he was like 17. And you're thinking but you've got. nothing Yeah. What are you going to talk about? And it's and it really what he's saying. is like he doesn't want to be a public. speaker. He wants the admiration he. thinks public speakers get probably. because he's insecure. Yeah. And and. so many kids including myself as a young. kid. we don't actually know what we want. We. have no [ __ ] clue. Mhm. But what we.

probably want is not to be insecure and. get laid. Like at the heart of it. And. the pursuit of that as you've described. takes us down a dark alley to the wrong. place. Usually a dead end as well. So. how do I figure out what what I actually. want in my life without it being. Kardashian noise or Instagram? Like what. does what what do I want and how do I. find out? I think. so it's a tricky thing, right? Because. again, I think you you kind of have to. get it right. It's like the. relationships. You need to get a couple. wrong before you know how to get it.

right. And I think it's the same in. pursuing a career or or or finding a. purpose in life. Like you you need to. get it wrong a couple times because. we're experts at tricking ourselves. You. know, it's like that kid, he wants. admiration, right? But if you ask them in his head, he's. like, "No, no, no. I'm just really. passionate about communicating with. people. I love people." You know, it's. like. we all do that to ourselves. We all like. we find the the admirable narrative to.

kind of explain what we're. what we want in the world. So I think. you need need go through. you need to hit a couple dead ends, you. know, it's like like that kid he. probably should go get on stage and. give the speeches and get the applause. and then realize that the applause. doesn't solve anything. That he's still. he's still just as insecure as he was. before. Because then once once he does that, then he'll be ready to ask that question. of like, why do I want to do that? Like, why am I really doing this? It it's almost a question you have to.

earn in a lot of ways. Interesting. You know, and I feel like a. lot of people they just want to start. there. And it's like, no, no, no, you have to. like cuz look, we're all like the. Kardashian thing, right? Like. Like the reason that stuff is so popular. is because. we're wired to value it. We're wired to. want status. We're wired to want to be. beautiful and sexy and we're wired to. want to impress others. Like that's. never going to go away. The question is. is like, what do you want once that is.

kind of removed from the equation? But I think mentally to be able to. remove it from the equation, you have to. try to get some of it first and and and. see that it doesn't work. If that makes sense. And what did you come to learn for. yourself um once you got that stuff, you. had the money, you were you know, had lots of um success in the field with. uh pickup artistry and you tried all of. these things and you tried the cars and. what did you come to learn that you. value? Well, I had an interesting.

experience. in my career, which we were joking about. it before we went live, was like I kind. of had this realization So I started the. pickup stuff when I was like 21, 22 and. and then I started coaching and like. teaching dating advice um. probably when I was like 23, 24. And I got to like my late 20s and I it. suddenly it started to dawn on me that. like. this is cool now. but.

in like 5 years it's going to be really. creepy. You know, like it's it's one. thing to be a 25-year-old who's like. taking a bunch of dudes out to like talk. to girls in a club. It's very different to be like a. 35-year-old guy. who's taking out a bunch of dudes to. talk to 20-year-old girls at a club. Like it just it's a much different look. and I also just realized I'm like, I. don't want to do this forever. Like this. is fun but like I this is actually not. fulfilling in any way whatsoever. Like I. need to find. what my next thing is going to be. And.

during that period when I was. doing all the dating relationship advice. I started to realize especially like a. lot of a lot of clients, a lot of guys. who hired me. you know, I take them out to the bar and. we talk to some girls or whatever. But. after a year or two, I realized like, what these guys really need is a. therapist. You know, it's it's their problem, you. know, they're good guys, like they're. they're smart, they're they're like. they've got a good job. Um.

They're sure they're a little bit. nervous talking to a girl but like who. isn't? What really what their most of. their problems were is like very. deep-seated insecurities, emotional. issues and they hadn't dealt with it. yet. And so. the last couple years I did that job. I would kind of just take the guys to. the bar as an excuse and then sit down. with them and be like, okay, let's like. what's really going on in your life, you. know, like like like let's get into. why do you feel so insufficient or or.

unworthy of. you know, dating her or talking to her. or whatever. And so I I kind of realized. that like, you know, what I should be. writing about is this stuff. You know, the the like. the the three best first dates or like. how to get her to reply to your text. every time. Like I was writing stuff. like that back then cuz it it got. traffic and it it would it would get. sales but I'm like, that's not what people actually need. That's not what they need to hear. What.

they need to hear is kind of this deeper. stuff. uh about self-esteem and self-worth and. vulnerability and. and so I I made that decision to pivot. into that. To stop being the dating. coach and and and actually start writing. about. personal development and emotional. health because that's something I knew I. could be proud of and and I could do for. the rest of my life. You know, you you. you can be a 50-year-old. uh talking about those things and it's. still like. something you can hang your hat on. Like.

but I never would have gotten there if I. hadn't done the dating coach stuff. If I. hadn't kind of been obsessed with the. like, yeah, let's go to the club and. like try to get laid. Like you that's. the entry point, right? And then you. find the deeper stuff along the way. And that's your that's your sort of now. your professional um. value, I guess. The one of the things. you value professionally. But in terms. of like holistically when you look at. your whole life, what are the things. where. the values at the heart of Mark that. allow him to be.

you know, fulfilled, stable and uh. Yes, sustain. sustainable? Like the sustainable values. that you think can last you because of. these values I will be somewhat, you. know, content and fulfilled for the next. 30, 40 years holistically. Gotcha. So I mean, the answer it's going to. sound really banal but like um but it's. true. Uh. you know, I think probably the biggest. one for me is is honesty and not just. honesty.

you know, with the. with the people in my life. Like honesty. is a standard that I hold kind of. everybody, all my friends and everybody. I I work with too. Um but it's also something I hold myself. to. Uh being honest with myself. I think generosity is is one that I've. discovered. Again, it's one of those things that. when you do make all the money like you. do make a buttload of money. you learn that it's so much more fun to. spend it on other people than it is. yourself. Like it feels so much better.

and and it means a lot more. Like it's. it creates those really powerful moments. that you you do remember for the rest of. your life. Whereas the Lamborghini you. forget about. I mean, only two seats, right? Um Community is an interesting one that. you talk about often. Yeah. Having a. community is something that I. disregarded when I was pursuing just. becoming rich myself was. connection and it wasn't I was actually. I think a TED Talk I saw where the TED.

Talk was was telling me that men who. have been in a relationship and had. strong relationships live longer, are. healthier, are happier and I was. thinking, what? You know, like do you. know cuz it was a counter narrative to. my like just be be rich, you know, Yeah. thing. Yeah, I mean, community was one. that I. I had to kind of like. begrudgingly accept. Same. Yeah. Um. cuz I I always have been such a loner, right? And and and it. I think living abroad for for so long,

it kind of forced me to accept. my own loneliness, you know, and and. recognize and I was. I started achieving a lot of great. things in my business and having all. these great experiences and then. realizing that like nobody I really. cared about was around me when it was. happening. And so it it felt. to a certain degree it felt kind of. pointless. So I moved back to the States. and and settled down and. and one of you know, one of my. goals when I moved back to the US was.

like I want to have a stable group of. friends who are kind of on the same path. as me. And it's. yeah, it's one of the best things I did, honestly. You you referenced honesty a second ago. which I find really um another really. interesting one. It's a So when you said. honesty, what I understood was um. being honest about who I am, what I. feel, what I think, what I'm passionate. about and. um stubbornly and unnegotiably. protecting.

my right. to be my true self um in life. And um. that again it allows a lot of the the. toxic, insecure stuff to fall away and. just wear what you want, be who you are, etc. etc. Um how important has that been. for for you in terms of just like being. your true self every day of your life. and um is there any tips or tricks you. have for especially someone like you. who's in high demand and there's lots of. people asking you to do lots of things. and be lots of things and how do you.

defend that above all? Honesty, first of all, you can't be your. true self without honesty. Like if. you're not being honest with yourself. and about what you want and what you. care about, you're not being your true. self. Like you're you're you're deluding. yourself and you know, a huge. cornerstone of my work in general is. just. all the ways we delude ourselves cuz we. delude ourselves in a lot of different. ways. So to me it's it's a constant work. in progress. It's it's um. it's almost like a a mental habit that. you build. Uh one you know, one of the.

tools is what you mentioned earlier is. like constantly asking why. You know, it's like, why why am I taking this job? Why am I. saying yes to this speaking opportunity? Why do I want. to write email newsletters or why do I. want to build my Instagram following? Like really why, you know, and and. try on different answers. Like always. try on the answer you don't want to hear. and see how it feels. See if it feels. true or not. Kind of coming back to the. community point.

when you do find some some like-minded. people, like people who are also kind of. dedicated to to honesty and being being. self-aware. they can be great sounding boards. I. mean, my wife is always the first one. to tell me when I'm full of [ __ ]. Which is great. You know, obviously I. don't like hearing it in the moment. sometimes but you know, sometimes I'll. tell her something and she'll be like, You are you sure about you sure about. that? You know, she'll kind of like. start challenging me challenging me on.

it. And um. you know, and I've learned to. to to um to take that well and and take. it seriously. Um so that's kind of the first part is. like it's something you you continue to. cultivate throughout your life. Your second question was was about. bringing that honesty kind of into the. world, especially. dealing. in business dealings and people who ask. things and. it's hard like.

it's interesting because. I I wrote about this in a newsletter. once. It's like when you're starting out. you you kind of have to say yes to. everything. Like it's like you're. desperate for opportunity and so you're. just always saying yes, yes, yes. And then a weird like. transition happens at some point where. you you have to start saying no to. people. um or else you're just going to lose. your mind um cuz there's just way more. opportunities than you can ever. handle. And so you have to like learning. to say no. gracefully, I think is.

a very important skill. uh in business and in life. Like being able to like let people down. and. in in the business context. actually in the personal context as. well. I What I've kind of found to be. like the easiest way to do it is I kind. of create rules for myself. Uh. and I don't know what it is, but when. you tell people. I have a rule. and this is why I'm saying no.

they take it really well. Like they. actually respect it. You know, so it's. like if somebody comes to me and they're. like, "Hey, I've got this event this. like charity event. Uh it's going to. happen this month. You know, would. really love if you're able like do a. video for us or come out or whatever.". And it's like, you know, I really don't. want to do it. If I'm just like, "Hey, sorry, but no." You know, like. then it starts to feel really weird and. emotional Yeah, yeah, they if exactly. It feels personal. I think that's what. it is. Um because.

and they start and they're like, "Oh no, but like we really want you and like the. the kids are going to love it and blah. blah blah." And then you start you're. like, "God, I'm a horrible person." And. you know, and they're like they're kind. of thinking like, "Wow, Mark Manson's an. asshole.". But if I go to them and I'm like, "Look, like. my rule is I do four events a year. I'm. already booked. I'm sorry.". Then it was the principle that let them. down as opposed to the you know, you. yeah. Exactly. And they're like, "Oh. man, I should HAVE EMAILED SOONER.". HE WANTS to do it, but the principle.

said no. Yeah, but it's but it's true. It's like. I'm not lying. It's just I create a rule. for myself. You know, another thing. another rule. uh it's and it was a really popular. article I did is is is a. uh if it's not a [ __ ] yes, it's a no. And so what I've learned is that. a lot of times turning people down, I'll. say like, "Look, I have a rule for. myself. You know, I. if I'm going to do something, I need to. be a [ __ ] yes about it. Like I need to. be all in and 100% like.

dedicated to it." And I said, "I I'm not. feeling that with this. I I wouldn't be. able to give it my full energy and. attention that and and it deserves that. So I'm going to say no.". You know, and so when you put it that. way, they're like. "Huh, good guy Mark Manson like looking. out for me." You know, like. Uh so it's there's like um. I think there's there's some some tactic. there like good and bad ways to say no. to people. One of the other things that I really. loved when I was reading all of your. work is this undercurrent of personal.

responsibility Yeah. that runs through. everything. And in our society, for. whatever reason, people don't like that. some people Yeah. really don't like that. idea of personal responsibility that you. might be. more so than you believe responsible for. the circumstances of your life because. for some people that shines that turns. the mirror on them and says, "You've got. no one to blame. Sure. It's not the. government. It's not this, that, this, your uncle, whatever. It's the decisions. you've made." And for some people that's. a motivating thing. It's liberation.

But it feels like some people would. rather there be a puppet master to point. to. Yeah. So what's your beliefs and. thoughts on personal responsibility, importance of it, and if you can as well. um like why some people hate it. I think uh. to me responsibility is kind of like the. the core. under like if if if there's no personal. responsibility, nothing else is ever.

going to work or improve. You know, to. improve anything, you have to believe. you have some sort of power influence on. it. And if you have some sort of power. influence. you're responsible for that power and. influence. So if you if you just reject. the idea that you're responsible for an. area of your life like if it's like I'm. not responsible for my shitty. relationships. it's all their fault. You're basically disempowering yourself. from ever improving them because you're. you're rejecting the idea that you have. any influence on them. I think I think the reason.

or one reason why people. really kind of bristle at the idea is. I think we we tend to mistake. responsibility and fault. Right? So. if if I. if I'm like a typical dumb American and. walk try to cross the street in London. looking the wrong way uh and I get hit. by a car. you know, it's not my fault. that I got hit by a car. But it's still my responsibility. Like I.

still need to. take take control of my recovery. I need. to like take care of my body. I need to. decide you know what I'm going to do. Uh. there's a there's a responsibility in. every moment because in every moment. we're choosing. what to do. what to perceive, what to believe. what to focus on. Like that choice is. happening every single moment. And because that is a choice.

there's responsibility for that choice, right? Um I use the example in Subtle. Art of like. if somebody left a newborn baby on your. doorstep. it's not your fault that there's a baby. on your doorstep. But it sure as [ __ ] is your. responsibility. Like you have to do. something. Like you can't you can't just. shut the door and be like "Not my baby.". Like it just doesn't work that way. And. so I think particularly people who have. had a lot of bad things happen in their. life.

and and those things are not their fault. it's very very difficult for them to to. accept responsibility. because well, for a couple reasons. One. is it's once you accept responsibility, it means you have to do something. You have to change something. You have. to change your perspective. You have to. change your actions. You have to change. your beliefs. And. all of those things are very. uncomfortable. But I I think the other thing is that a. lot of times people get very attached to.

their stories, right? So. a terrible thing happens to them. It kind of [ __ ] them up. And that becomes their identity. Like. that's how they get sympathy from other. people. It's how it's how other people. know them. It's the basis of a lot of their. relationships. And so they're actually. afraid to let it go, right? Like it's. it's actually a scary thing. to. to let go of that identity. So yeah, it's it's a hard thing to do. But we all.

have to kind of go through that. struggle. It's really interesting. It's a yeah, and if. it's something that I see a lot in in. our in our culture at the moment. specifically with young people cuz I. think in Instagram has. um created more of a community for that. kind of like I'm going to just be honest. that kind of like self-pitying blame um. and the algorithms are now kind of. reinforcing that and you know, you'll. get more likes if you do the Yes. It's. you know I I I I heard it referred to as.

the victimhood Olympics. Yes, exactly. Yeah. Which is like, "Oh, you win. You've had the worst [ __ ] happen to you. Here's your medal.". One of the kind of self-development. you know, tropes or like you know, piece. of advice is I hear often that's linked. to that is that happiness is a choice. Mhm. How do you feel about that phrase? Uh. I mean, I think it's fundamentally true. Obviously, I think it's a little more. complicated than that. Um.

But it it kind of comes back to what I. was saying like. you I think when people say that, what. they're referring to is like in every. moment you you get to choose what to. focus on, right? So. a car hits me in the middle of the. street here. I can either focus on how unlucky I am. and how unfair this is and how it [ __ ]. up my. press trip to to the UK, you know, and. all this stuff. You know, or I can focus on something. else. I can focus on.

you know, how fortunate I am to survive. How you know, and I think this is where. it kind of like the the positive. thinking. stuff was intended to refer to. You. know, like classic self-help of like. just think positive. Like this is what. it what it was trying to say, but it. kind of got distorted and turned into. this weird delusional thing. But it's. basically like, you know, in every. single moment you are choosing how to. see things. And so in that sense, you. can always choose in every moment to see. things.

in a way that that makes you feel. better. And uh it's not easy. It's actually. really really hard. But in that sense, happiness can be a choice. Like it's. it's always within your power. There's. no person on earth that the happiness. has been removed from their brain. Like. it's it's all in there. It's all in you. It's just a question of. do you know how to access it? And will you access it? Will you choose. to? And one of the things that does feel. like a choice linked to that is the. expectations that we we choose for life.

And you write about how expectations can. really be a a curse of happiness. Yeah. Um. How do How do we So, why are expect are. expectations a potential curse and why. they dangerous and how do we set better. expectations then? Well, expectations are dangerous because. uh you know, I think there's a I forget. who came up with it, but I think it's. there's this like old equation where. it's like. happiness equals reality minus.

expectations, you know? So, if you have. these like huge unreasonable. expectations for yourself, you're always. going to be disappointed. But then it's. a double-edged sword because if you have. like tiny expectations for yourself, then you're not going to try to do. anything. So, like there there's this. weird balance where. I mean, I I prefer kind of like more of. the Buddhist take, which is like just. don't have expectations. Like just don't. expect anything. Is that possible? No, but. but it's kind of like honesty, right? Like it's it's you. you never completely get there, but you.

should still try. And um. it's And it's particularly useful, I. find, in in in. managing anxiety. You know, cuz anxiety. tends to. come from uh. just either irrational or outsized. expectations, right? So, it's like. you're about to go on stage and talk to. a bunch of people and your expectation. is like I'm going to bomb, I'm going to. look like a fool, like people going to. laugh at me. And it's because of that.

expectation that you start feeling a lot. of anxiety, start feeling terrible. Whereas if you just kind of take the. expectation of of, you know, this is just another moment, you know, it's it's going to happen. People are. probably not going to remember it. Like it just is it's going to be. whatever it's going to be. Um. it can eliminate a lot of that. I do. that with with my book launches cuz. obviously, like any author, I'm like. I probably was probably the same with. you. Like you you know, that when your. book is coming out, like you're like. crippled on the floor, like everybody's.

going to hate me, they're all going to. laugh at me. You know, and it's. to me it just helps to just remove any. assumption of like what it's going to. be, you know? Don't assume it's going to. do well, but don't assume it's going to. do poorly. Like it's it's going to do. what it's going to do. And you're going. to be fine either way. So, Even though. you know that, do you still feel. Of course. Of course. Of course. Like you never. the anxiety never goes away, but it it.

it gets managed, right? Do you Do you. suffer with anxiety? Uh yeah, for sure. And how long have you suffered with it. for? I mean, since forever. I mean, I am. human. Yeah. So, this it's kind of like a I I I see. it well I see it as a spectrum almost. There's like. on one end of it it might be And I'm If. I sound super naive here, it's cuz I am. Like um there might be nervousness. before, you know, pre pre-performance. anxiety. And then there's like the daily. struggle with. anxiety, which can be like debilitating,

I guess. Yeah, I I think the way most people look. at emotions, they look at emotions in. terms of intensity and I I think that's. not the right way to look at it. Like. it's. everybody feels anxiety. It doesn't. matter. Like the most confident person. on the planet feels anxiety. It's What's. different between somebody who. seems very confident and somebody who. seems debilitated is that the person who. seems confident. is managing their anxiety very well. They're they're channeling the anxiety. very effectively into their actions and.

behaviors. Whereas the person who's. debilitated by it is not. So, in that. sense, I see. managing emotions it it's like a skill, right? And and And I think this we all. kind of know this. Like we all we all. know somebody who's like very good at. managing their anger or somebody who's. very good at managing their anxiety. And. we all probably know somebody who's very. bad at managing their anger. Mhm. Somebody who's very bad at managing. their anxiety or managing their sadness. And so, I think it's, you know, so.

we each kind of have like a natural. talent for some emotions and not others. And so, it it's something we kind of. have to learn. Like you you learn to. feel the anxiety and then use that. energy, you know, kind of adopt the right mindsets and. beliefs around it and then use that. energy in a way that's effective. Mhm. You write about, you know, how. especially in Everything Is [ __ ] a. book about hope, um how mental health.

ailments are somewhat increasing in the. world, it appears to it appears I mean, we know some people say that it's. because we're like, you know, diagnosing. more Yeah, or whatever, but um I would. assert, if I was to be to guess and. based on the information that I've seen. and I'm a big. big heavily involved in a company called. a Tai Life Sciences, which is in the. psychedelic space. We look at. schizophrenia and depression and. anxiety. Um it does appear to be. increasing. People do appear to be. getting more anxious. And my general. belief, which is not backed by anything,

is that how could we not be in a world. that where there's so much stimulation. If you go back to, you know, our tribal. tribal roots versus today, it's it's. just constant. So, anxiety and thinking. about the future and depression and. these things are probably increasing. Um. you talk about how. a lack of something to strive for is at. the root cause of a lot of this and how. as life has got more comfortable, mhm um. we've got into trouble. Anyway. There's, you know, so a lot of that book.

revolved around. kind of this interesting paradox. Like. there there seems to be a very very. subtle trade-off. between. comfort and meaning. And. kind of a very simple example is like if. you imagine. if you remember like back like 100 years. ago, right? Like. most of the population is living on. farms. There's wars going on all the. time. There's diseases all the time. It's very easy to know what to hope for.

It's very easy to know what gives your. life meaning. Like you got to get the. food harvested for next season. Like you. got to feed, you know, your eight kids or whatever. you whatever it is or you got to survive. the war. And so, these kind of existential questions of. like what is my purpose and like what am. I here to do and am I using my talents. the most effectively? Like these don't. even enter into the equation. Like it's. just pure survival. Mhm. And And this is kind of what I was. referring to either like earlier that.

that that why question is almost a. privilege. Like you you almost earn it, right? And I think. our society's become so affluent and. comfortable. that we're starting at that why. question, right? So, it's it's if you're. a young person today, you've grown up with this incredible. technology. You have access. to all of the information in the world. Um. you're more educated than anybody in. human history. You if you are fortunate.

enough to go to university, like you're. going to have tons and tons of career. opportunities and job opportunities. So, this question of like who am I? Why am I here Why am I here on Earth? What am I meant to do? Is this the best. use of my time? Like these are really. [ __ ] hard questions to answer. And. we're hitting people with them when. they're like 16, 17. So, it to me it makes sense. Like it And. to me it's like it's a very silent cost.

of our affluence and comfort. Makes perfect sense to me. Yeah. Just in. my own life, I think one of the most um. dis- I've talked about this before. One. of the most destabilizing, disorientating moments of my life was. when I was I had financial freedom. Yeah. And And in fact, it was on the day where. someone offered me financial freedom. So, it was when someone offered to buy. my company and I talk about this. I go. home and I'm sat here think And then I'm. thinking, but then. What? Like I'm going to give up my like. struc- cuz I was I was trying to I was. trying to make it, Yeah. survive, like.

and someone comes along and says, "We'll. give you X tens of millions." And. you know, I'm 25 and I'm thinking, "But. then what am I going to do with my. life?" And I'm trading off my purpose. for this big pile of cash, which isn't. going to give me purpose. Yeah. So, um. that I I had a bit of an existential. crisis there um of figuring out what. what my actual why was. And I didn't. think it was much I felt like life was. much easier before that. And when my my. clear Maslovian objectives were like. food, water, shelter, not.

self-actualization. Yeah. That's a really crazy thing that. when you make people comfortable and. free, you give them. an existential crisis. An existential. crisis, yeah, of meaning, right? it's you like trade. physical hardship for. emotional mental hardship. And uh And. obviously, I think most of us would. choose the emotional mental hardship. over the physical hardship. Uh but it's. funny. I mean, I had a very similar. experience after Subtle Art took off. Um. You know, I had massive royalty checks.

start coming in and. you know, for like 10 years before that, my big goal in life was like I want to. be a best-selling author. I want to like. I want to be one of the most popular. authors and bloggers in the world, you. know? And then it happens and all this. money shows up. and. it really [ __ ] with me. And it's funny. cuz I've talked about this in a few. interviews and. um. and it usually like they have no idea.

what I'm talk- Like it's one of those. things like you feel like such an ass. for saying it. talking about it cuz it's people are. just like, "Yeah. Yeah, [ __ ] you." Like. Like I'll take that problem any day, but. it's true. But it's um anticlimax, miserable, all that kind of Yeah, I just. honestly, I just kind of sat on the. couch and played a lot of video games. cuz I'm like, "Well, what now?" Like any. book I write is not going to Mhm. you. know, so that's not super exciting. Um. all like grinding on my internet.

business which I had been doing for. seven or eight years up to that point. It's like suddenly like I've got more. money than I ever expected. So it's like. Okay, I don't need to grind that hard. anymore. So what do I do? Like what what am I. really doing again? It comes back to. like earning that why? Like I really had. to ask like. what am I really doing this for? Like I. obviously I I believe in the message of. the book and everything, but. again like like you you kind of alluded.

to like when you're coming up. it's. it's very exciting and it's very it's. very easy to know what you're gunning. for. Like you. It's called the North Star. The. orientation. And you've got nothing to. lose, right? You know, it's like it's. like. business fails, whatever. Like I was I. started broke. I'll be broke again. Like. you know, like let's make it happen. But. then once you get there. and you're like [ __ ] I got an I've got.

contracts. I've got an agent. I've got. an audience. I've got a team. Suddenly like it's. there's a lot to lose and it's and it. and it. and it becomes. it becomes a lot harder to know like. what are you gunning for? You know, like. what what do you. what's the next mountain top, right? Was that a learning moment. psychologically and mentally? Strangely, yeah. Yeah, I I actually the. the year after subtle art came out was. probably the most depressed I've been.

since I was a teenager. Um and yeah, it's. you know, there were a few people in my. life that I could talk to about it and. and and understood. Um but so here's the funny thing. Again, you you feel like such an ass. like. it's like you're literally experiencing. the most success of your entire career. and you feel so aimless and lost. And I. remember the first person I came across. I've got a friend in New York who was. the co-founder of a unicorn startup. And.

uh. and I remember he was the first person I. mentioned it to and he was like well, yeah, of course. You know, and he's he's. like every every founder. has this. Like it happens all the time. Um and then the the other group of. people that I found that understood I. did some podcast with the. some famous comedians and and every. single one of them was like of course, dude. Like every comedian who gets their. first special. they're like the year after is like the. worst year of their life.

I completely get it. I struggled with. understanding why. Um am I ungrateful? Am I you know, that's really fascinating. I don't think. it's not something that I. I knew about you, but it's of course if. I really thought about it, I would have. been able to guess that that wouldn't. have been. Yeah, it's I think part of it too is the. velocity of success. Um. I think if it. if it had happened more gradually. cuz like my online business, right? Like.

my online business basically grew like. 10 20% a year. for like eight years straight. So it. ended up being a. making a lot of money and being but it. was each year was like 20% better than. the last year. So it's like my mind had. time to adjust, but then this comes. along. and sunlight suddenly you're like. you know, 500 xing or 200 xing. whatever you were at before and.

and like your brain just can't. keep up. Like it's How did you. like recalibrate and come out the other. end and how did you kind of readjust. your thinking to say okay, we're going. to strive for things now. We know that. it might not reach the meteoric success. of this, but there's another you know, set of foundations that we're. It's funny. So the the the next book everything is. [ __ ]. was very much motivated by all this. You. know, so so it's the core thesis that we. just talked about of everything is. [ __ ] is like what is it about being.

comfortable. and affluent that like [ __ ] with you. Yeah, makes us so like neurotic, you. know? And it's cuz I was going through that. So that it's like. I've always written the books that I. need to read. And so everything is [ __ ] was exactly. kind of what I needed to read. There's a. lot of like just subtle mental. adjustments. You know, again like. realizing that I can say no to a lot of. this stuff. Like it took me like a year. or two to realize like I don't have to. accept all these speaking gigs. Like you.

know, I'm tired. I'm like I'm exhausted. Like I don't have to say yes. I don't. need the money. Like you could start. saying no to this stuff. You know, that it took a while for that. to sink in. And then and then kind of. finding another why. You know, like I I. think. for me it was. it was. uh. you know, so much of my identity. and I I actually didn't realize this. until till the pandemic. Um but like so.

much of my identity was kind of wrapped. up in like being the upstart internet. blogger who's kind of like. you know, overcoming you know, somehow. overcomes the odds and becomes this huge. best-selling author. Like a big part of. my identity was wrapped up in that. And. I realized that that holding on to that. was not helpful. It was actually kind of. that was a big part of what was making. me miserable. And so letting go of that. and just kind of accepting like.

okay, I'm an author now. but you know, maybe I won't be forever. or. yeah, I'm an internet entrepreneur, but. maybe I won't be forever. Like you know, it doesn't. You're not your label. Exactly. Like I. can go. do anything that I want. Like I'm not. like beholden to this narrow lane that I. lived in for so long. And so kind of. coming to that realization was was. actually. very very helpful. So two points there. then. You talked about finding your new.

why. Mhm. Coming out of that. And the. other point was about learning to say. no. Let's start first then with learning. how to say no. You're in a phase of your life now where. you're between projects. Yeah. Right? Um. you've been working very hard for a long. period of time as you said before we. start recording, six years. And so so. how do you feel say six years of working. very very hard. Your projects have been. ticked off. Obviously you're in the UK. on your press run. Will's book's coming. out which you've just written. So how. does how do you approach switching off.

in that phase of being in between work. in a in a culture and amongst the. narrative where you should always be. climbing and working or Yeah. For some. reason that feels like it's connected to. our sense of worth, right? In in society. if we're if we're not working, we're not. striving. Yeah, I I think. so the kind of that that hustle culture, right? Like I think there is value in. that. Like I I'm extremely grateful that. I. did learn to work really really hard. Like ridiculously hard. I think that's a.

very valuable life skill and. for people who are young or starting out. or starting their business like I think. it's. incredibly valuable to learn that and. and to cultivate that. But I think kind. of what I've discovered the last year or. two is like there's a lot of value in. also learning how to. find the off switch. because. it's very easy to kind of become. compulsive about work and and also. develop kind of a a. this irrational belief that like if you.

stop, it's all going to disappear. You. know, it's like oh, if I take a week off. like. all the traffic's going to go away and. the book sales are going to stop. And. it's it's completely irrational, but. like it's when you're caught up in that. that constant hustling and striving. Like that that's what it feels like. To me it's it's I I finally hit a point. about midway through this year that I. had no major project. Like the Will book. was done. I just did a documentary in New Zealand. Like that like all the shooting for that.

was done. And then my next book. isn't due to Harper for another year or. two. And originally I was going to start. writing that immediately, but then I. took a couple weeks off and I'm like oh. my god, this is so good. Like. This is so good. And so I decided to kind of just take. the rest of the year off. from any major project and and and just. kind of basically work on part-time and. manage my my online team and. and it's been wonderful. Like it's and.

it's the world doesn't collapse and it's. it's been so recharging for me not just. like in terms of energy, but. creativity. And then also kind of this identity. piece that I was referring to like. it's only by getting distance from. something that you're able to. disidentify from it. Like you know, when. if you're working on something 12 hours. a day, you're going to identify with it. Like it's impossible not to. But then. when you pull back, you're actually able. to to sit there and kind of ask yourself. like do I want to be an author forever?

Do I want to have an internet business. forever? Uh. do I want to go, you know, do I want to. start doing more celebrity memoirs? Do I. want to try to work in film? Like what. what do I want to do? Like what's the. next why? And I I think this is like a. really important point that doesn't get. talked about enough is that like your. what like there's not this. this predetermined why out there that. just exists forever. Like your why is. always changing. You know, my my why. when I was 25 was get laid. Make money.

and get laid. And you know, and then my why in in my. 30s was was you know, become a a big. author and super successful and get a. lot of attention and accolades. And and. I'm realizing that like my why in my my. is probably going to be something else. And that's not only is that okay, but. that's actually exciting now. What is. it? I don't know. Mhm. I don't know. Um. Suspicious? I really I really So, here's the thing. After Subtle Art, I I kind of lost my.

why, but I freaked out. Like it it terrified. me. Um because. I think I was still in that mindset of. like this could go away at any moment. And you know, and. now I'm at a place where I'm like, "No, no, no. Like I'm good.". You know, it helps that the book is. still selling really well, you know, 4. or 5 years later. The Will book is doing. super well. You know, so it's like I'm. good. Like this. phase of my career is solidified. And as soon as I kind of like became.

confident in that, the why question went from being scary. to to just exciting. It's like I get to. go play. Like I can just screw around. Like I can. spend a week just like. around with crypto. And like. nobody. can tell me not to. Like it's it's and. it's like, "Is this a thing?" I don't. know. Maybe it will be, maybe it won't. You know, or I can. I can screw around with like. with a screenplay. I feel like I'm in.

like a kid in a sandbox, you know? So interesting that you've got to that. point where you can have freedom without. a a sense of meaninglessness. Yeah. Whereas. which is really interesting. And maybe that's because you have got. some projects in the future. You do have. a book coming up. I do have another. book, yeah. Um But I I'm trying to understand what. what what's got you to the place where. you can now have the freedom without it. being disorientating and. I think the thing that changed, honestly, is.

the confidence. that I can do it again. Mhm. You know, it it's. I think one of my deep-seated fears when. Subtle Art blew up was like, "This is a. fluke. I got lucky." So, as a result of. that, so much of my motivation was like, "Don't lose it." Right? Like. keep fighting, keep posting online, keep. writing newsletters, keep the books. coming, like promote the [ __ ] out of. them, you know, we don't want to lose. this. And then. I think I I kind of hit a point where.

I'm like, "I don't need to fight for it any Like. it it's it's not going to go away." Mhm. You know, I earned it. It's going to. stick around. I don't need to fight for this forever. The fear is gone. And so, and then once. that happened, yeah, I just it it. stopped being about trying to hold on to. what I have, and it became much more of. just like, "Oh, there's a freedom here.". You know, and I could go do some amazing. stuff. Especially now I have resources. and connections and all this stuff. Like.

I like. there are a lot of great opportunities. that could happen in front of me. And so. now it now it's it's actually just. excitement. Um. Yeah. So, we do have a tradition. The. previous guest leaves a question for the. next guest. Okay. Our our last guest. wrote for you. Yeah. What is your. favorite quote? My favorite quote is from David Foster. Wallace. He said, "You'll stop worrying. so much what other people think of you. when you realize how seldom they do.". Mhm.

It's kind of dark, but also liberating. And it requires no explanation because. it's so interlinked to what we've been. talking about. Thank you so much for. your time today. Your books have been um. so refreshing in this space because. they're so real. They're so um. multi-faceted and nuanced, and they. present a different perspective on. self-help and personal development, which is not often um. uh not often conveyed in a lot of the. books that I've read. So, your book I. think was just so your your the Subtle. Art book was such a smash hit because it. was so.

um refreshingly uniquely. um challenging in so many fundamental. ways. And your next book is actually my. favorite. Your book after that about. hope and about meaning was so from this. this this narratives that we share was. so on the money for me because it. answered a lot of those fundamental. questions about meaning and the need for. struggle, which again people in our. society don't appreciate the need for. struggle. The work you're doing is amazing, and. your new book with Will um is is more of. the same, and I can't wait to to get.

stuck into that book as well. Thank you. for for your time today. Honestly, you're one of the people that in my life. that I genuinely was so excited about. meeting because because of those um. common narratives. And yeah, you're. doing a real service to our society. So, thank you. Appreciate that. Thanks. Quick one. Can you do me a favor if. you're listening to this and hit the. subscribe button, the follow button, wherever you're listening to this. podcast. Me and my team use that as an. indication of whether the episode is. good or not based on how many new. followers and subscribers we get. Thank. you so much.