The Speaking Expert: How To Speak So Everyone Hears You! Julian Treasure

if you've got a boring voice you can do. something about it it's possible. Julian treasure the auth of how to be. heard your Ted Talk is the sixth most. listened to Ted Talk of all time I've. assembled seven deadly sins of speaking. here they are it's the most common. mistake I see in business in. relationships you're speaking to teams. you're trying to inspire people you're. trying to lead people build. relationships with people this is part. of your life and you've never paid any. attention to it we teach reading and. writing in schools we don't teach.

speaking which is absolutely nuts we're. much Keener to be heard than we are to. listen to others what's the biggest. complaint in relationships he or she. never listens to me our happiness and. our well-being are fundamentally. affected by whether we master the skills. of speaking and listening. how does one speak with authority in. work in life in my relationships what. advice can you give me people often say. to me I don't feel confident how can I. engage with people and the answer is. before this conversation starts I've got.

a favor to ask from you 74 of people. that watch this podcast frequently. haven't yet hit the Subscribe button and. nine percent of people haven't yet hit. the Bell to turn notifications on the. bigger this platform gets the bigger the. guests get so if you could do me one. favor if you've ever enjoyed this. podcast please hit the Subscribe button. and turn notifications on without. further Ado I'm Stephen Butler and this. is the Diary of a CEO I hope nobody's. listening but if you are then please. keep this yourself. foreign.

[Music]. you've had a pretty marvelous unique. career and it's twisted and turned and. twisted and turned in a really. fascinating way one in which I I don't. imagine anyone could have really. predicted ahead of time. what do I need to know about. you and your earliest years to inform. the person listening to this of any. context that ended up steering where you.

would end up in your life. I think I mean I was very fortunate to. have a good education. which I didn't use to the max perhaps. but I appreciated enormously. but I think from. a young age I grew up. with a confidence that all will be well. and that's I suppose you could sum that. up in the word faith. not talking about religious Faith. necessarily.

although I've been in and out of that in. my life. but just a conviction that all will be. well. and I think that's an important thing. for I mean for entrepreneurs. who tend to be the people who'll take. the jump and say oh I think I'll get to. the other side whereas a lot of people. would be standing there going you know. what you do that. so when things have come along. I've been. comfortable to go with the flow to to. say well let's see where this goes I'm.

sure it'll be interesting. I read that your Ted Talk. um on speaking and being heard I think. that's the one. um is the sixth or seventh most listened. to Ted Talk of all time which is. staggering because there are thousands. and thousands of TED Talks I've done one. nobody listened. um and. so I was when I saw that I thought how. much did that moment change your life if. at all. um and can you just tell me about the.

decision to do that talk that day and. how it came about. well it was the fifth actually of five. talks I did. um in a row five separate teds. uh Ted Global was in the UK and Oxford. originally. and the first one I did was about how. sound effects is the four effects of. sound it's called. uh looking back at that that's a very. younger Slimmer me on stage it's quite. funny looking at it now. um nobody's ever used sound before in a. TED talk like that so they were quite.

excited about it. and then I got to do the next one was. about sound and health and then one. about listening which is you know as you. know kind of a religion for me and then. one about sound and the environment the. way Architects designed for the eyes not. the ears so I had those four. TED talks to kind of practice I suppose. and become a master I suppose of doing a. TED Talk I mean it's it's a discipline. you have 12 minutes or maybe even I.

think my first one was six. you can't gabble you can't cut turn cram. too much in you have to be very clear. about the big idea the why would people. be interested in this the what's the. journey I'm taking people on where am I. moving them from to. and. you need to know how to do it how to. stand on that stage on that red dot and. project it with confidence and clarity. and engage people in coming on that.

Journey with you so I suppose by the. time I did that fifth one. I was more experts think in giving Ted. Talks than most people would ever have a. chance to be because I'd done four. before and that's unusual. so certainly when I walked on stage I. felt quite good on that talk and and. yeah I think I nailed it you know I I'd. rehearsed a lot and you know we can talk. about the principles of public speaking. and so forth which you know I've done a. lot of work on. but I did a good job and the audience. really responded there was a great.

feeling in the room. so when I walked off. I felt that I'd actually you know done. that one Justice they didn't release it. for a year. and I thought oh maybe they didn't like. it you know but I do remember Bruno. jassani who's one of the the guys who. kind of runs Ted. in Edinburgh Castle bumped into me uh. about three hours after I gave that talk. and he said hail. and I thought ah okay well Bruno wasn't.

there so obviously word is getting. around that there's some good stuff in. there and and held the acronym that you. delivered in that talk about how to to. be a great public speaker. um honesty authenticity integrity and. love correct um how did when that Ted. Talk came out how did your life change. because I'm because I know how the. algorithms work it takes some time for. things to sort of pick up momentum but. once they get going and the algorithm. says the watch time on this episode is. very very good so we're going to just.

keep showing it to more and more people. so it might have taken some time but how. did how did things change for you at. that point and also your orientation. personally and professionally. yeah it took off quite quickly once it. came out. um I had long since kind of got past. watching the numbers every day you know. the first Ted Talk I did you know I was. obsessive 10 000 people watch this you. know and and I'm sure everybody does a. TED Talk start stuff like that. um. but this one clearly was it was going.

ballistic quite quickly. um it went up you know in a period of. months it was in the top 20 I think. and yes it has changed my life. fundamentally really really powerfully. because. I have spent many many hours on planes. going all over the world delivering. talks getting paid to deliver talks so. my career kind of shifted from. running the sound agency an audio. branding company in the UK which is you.

know relatively small business. and writing you know my first book Sound. business. I then got the opportunity to write the. second book which was off the back of. that Ted Talk I got the opportunity to. travel the world meet people. um give talks and spread the message. which is the important thing to me. because as I say I'm a listening. evangelist I I am passionate about. persuading people to start listening. um so yeah it moved my career.

totally onto a different track. a track of public speaking of writing. books of being a speaker and an author. professionally. and in hindsight when you look at this. the wild success I mean the TED Talks. combined have over 100 million views now. right so that one particular talk I. think it's about 40 million views on. YouTube alone probably right I mean. Chris Anderson says because you've got. ted.com so it's got however many million. on there I haven't looked recently but.

um then you add the YouTube views Chris. says whatever it is on ted.com you need. to double it to get a reasonable. estimate of the number of views embedded. podcasts and all that kind of thing. across the internet so yeah way over 100. million I think which is mind-boggling. to me. in hindsight as you look at the success. of that the very very wild you know. completely unprecedented success of that. particular video delivered in that way. on that topic what has it taught you. about why people care so much about that.

video and the topic. I think that a lot of people don't feel. heard. in the world. so that that talk was about getting your. message across how to how to speak so. that people want to listen. um and I think that's a need. and it's interesting isn't it you said. the five times number is really. interesting the talk on listening has. been seen by one-fifth as many people as. the talk on speaking so we're much. Keener to be heard than we are to listen. to others and there's an imbalance there.

which I think is. endemic in modern society. why do we want to be hard. um to make a difference. to forge relationships to be validated. to mean something to somebody to feel. right unfortunately which is a big human. need that I talk about quite a lot being. right is quite a dangerous thing in the. world at the moment and a lot of people. need to feel justified in that way to be. right.

what is it doing doing for us at our. most Primal level to be to be heard or. to be right what is it is it helping us. to belong in a TR in the tribe is it. yeah tribe family human race and um you. know a reason for existing I suppose you. know what am I doing here and if people. are listening to me it gives me. significance that's certainly true. so I think it's it is about validating. one's self I mean I'm big I'm a big fan. of Eckhart Toller uh and his you know.

theories about ego. and I think a lot of it would chime with. that you know the ego needs to be. massaged the ego needs to have. affirmation and being listened to making. a difference to people is part of that. but you know on a more altruistic level. making a difference in the world you. know you your life has affected millions. of people. um my talks have hopefully you know cast. a pebble into a pond and the ripples are. going out and lots more people I hope. are listening as a result well that's.

good you know whether it makes me feel. good is another thing but it is actually. a good thing in the world we were. talking before we started um chatting. about the uh there's an irony to you. coming here today and speaking because. you've got a bit of a chest call yeah. well yes a head cold which is in my. chest so my voice is pitched down I'd. say two tones at the moment and it's a. bit croaky you know it's frustrating as. well as a speaker. because I love this instrument that we. have you know the human voice is an. incredible instrument. and it's an instrument we all play.

although most of us have never had any. training or spent any time learning how. to use it really well well I have and. it's frustrating I'm now dealing with a. slightly broken instrument it's funny. because you know when I'm when my team. send me potential guests that you know. want to come on the podcast and we've. reached out to them to come on this. podcast there's a couple of criteria I. look for and one of the most important. one of the non-negotiables where we've. had the most interesting smartest people. in the world is their ability to speak.

and and when I say speak I don't mean. you know how well they can you know how. funny they are or things like that I. literally mean if they're monotone we. can't have the conversation because I I. I've no I've got no data to support this. but if someone is monotoning their. delivery then I find it to be. hard to follow the story regardless. absolutely you say that you say that the. two most important things with speaking. are. the content and then the delivery and. that's what I'm actually getting to is.

like that delivery point. have you got any evidence to back up the. importance of that or am I is this just. in my head that I think the well it's. another thing I asked Chris Anderson. who's got more experience of listening. to speakers than probably anybody in the. world because they do that all the time. at Ted and I said to him which is more. important content or delivery. and his answer was answer was quite. interesting he said well if I had to. choose they're both important if I had. to choose its content. because if somebody's delivering.

earth-shattering content in a boring way. I can really make an effort and listen. to them and it's worth it at the end. whereas if somebody's delivering vapid. nonsense in a brilliant way it's just. irritating. actually so I I get that but I do think. they're both important I mean it is a. shame if somebody's saying something. incredibly important and they're not. using what I call the vocal toolbox you. know there's all this stuff that we can. deploy if we start paying attention to. our voice you know if you've got a.

boring voice you can do something about. it it's possible. get a vocal coach work on it you know. take up a breathing practice improve. your posture just practice. prosody prosody the intonation you know. really exaggerating it I'm a great fan. of doing this it's the kind of thing. that actors do singers do. and many times for example I've I've. given talks where I've been looking at. an audience of CEOs. hundreds or thousands of them and I say.

how many of you have to talk in public. Forest of Hands goes up. how many of you have had formal vocal. training three or four people. I go what this is part of your life it's. an important part of you you're speaking. to teams you're trying to inspire people. you're trying to lead people you're. trying to communicate build response. relationships with people you're trying. to move you know mountains with your. voice and you've never paid any. attention to it.

it's tragic you know we we teach. reading and writing in schools we don't. teach speaking or listening which is. absolutely nuts. it's funny because I when people ask me. I always say that the most important. skill you can learn is to sell because. you're selling all the time I'm selling. right now I'm sorry I meet a girl in a. bar I'm just going to sell to her to try. and get her number I have a girlfriend I. wouldn't do that. um I'm selling in business I'm selling. to my teams I've been trying to inspire. investors to join us it's con this. caught my life is full of the sales. pitch whether I'm selling myself or an. idea or a vision or whatever.

um but I've never really reflected on. the fact that the foundation of that. selling is this instrument of course. well actually even more than that below. that what's the most important part of. the sales conversation listening. it's not the speaker it's the listening. listening to understand the other person. to go onto their Island to understand. what is it what's their pain Point what. is it I can solve or help them with here. because if you can't it's a waste of. time how many times have we all had that. irritating sales conversation where.

somebody's trying to sell something we. don't at all need and because they're. not listening so patter you know it can. be good but really well targeted talking. to somebody to whom we have listened. respected and understand that's a. different thing that's powerful. what what would I have to do because. there's lots of people that are out. listening to this podcast that start. their own podcast and want to be a. podcaster and many of them message me. and they want to come and sit here on. this podcast one day what are the types.

of things. um you would advise someone to do with. their voice to be a to be heard. well treating your voice as a skill is. the first thing so becoming conscious. that this is a skill it's not a natural. capability just like listening is a. skill hearing is a capability listening. is a skill so I very much talk about. these two things as skills speaking and. listening are skills that we do not. teach in school or university which is. mad so we have to take it upon ourselves.

because they matter you know they they. affect our outcomes in life they affect. I always say are happiness our. Effectiveness and our well-being are. fundamentally affected by whether we. master the skills of speaking and. listening. so in terms of speaking. understanding there's a vocal toolbox is. the first thing. so things like breathing your voice is. just breath that's all it is breath. moving across your vocal cords. and in order to speak well it's very.

good to develop a breathing practice. maybe you do yoga maybe something else. Jane my wonderful fiance has taught me a. breathing practice which is very very. simple anybody can do it and it's called. resonant breathing which is breathing in. through your nose. and then out through your mouth like as. if you're blowing. so you can hear it and you practice that. and lengthen you count and lengthen the.

in-breath and lengthen the out breath. and also we ought to be breathing from. our diaphragm from our stomach because. you know if you watch a baby breathing. it's their stomach that goes up and down. not not the chest. so just developing that I mean I wonder. people listening to this podcast when's. the last time you took a really deep. breath we tend to breathe you know just. to a fraction of our lungs like a little. bird. but with your voice. it's very important to breathe deeply. and to get into that practice also a.

great cure for nerves you know if you. come on stage and you're a little bit. like this hello everybody then a big. deep breath will settle the voice right. down so it's a really powerful thing to. do that breathing practice what is it. doing then in terms of improving my. performance I've got the nerves part but. in terms of my vocal cords or. it gets you into it well what is it. Aristotle said Excellence is uh no we. are what we do repeatedly so Excellence. is not an act it's habit.

so it gets you into the habit of. breathing better and deeper. and you know when you're speaking in. public there's nothing wrong with taking. a deep breath and filling your lungs. actors do it all the time I mean a. singer can sing for the most enormously. long note uh you know what's the world. record for static apnea 28 minutes. something like that lying at the bottom. of a swimming pool. on one breath.

you know and that static apnea then. you've got the the free divers there are. things we can do with our lungs which. are beyond the imagining virtually and. yet most of us just breathe a little. tiny tiny breaths. so it's good for you as well to exercise. your lungs to inflate them I I had. unfortunately a few years ago. pulmonary embolism. which is quite scary and it can kill you. and that's blood clots going to the lung. they have to go through the heart to get. to the lung so that you know that's.

where you can die. um and so my lungs are not as efficient. as they were before that and it's made. me even more conscious of the importance. of deep breathing of expanding the lung. capacity. it's part of being healthy apart from. anything else to have great lung. capacity is that what exercise does yeah. kind of an advertently partly yeah. absolutely releases all sorts of good. the happy chemicals into your system as. well exercise but uh breathing is very.

very good for you generally and we don't. do enough of it so I've done my. breathing exercises I'm I'm heading on. to the Diary of a CEO podcast what else. would I would I have to. um do to be heard from by The Listener. what are the sort of tips or skills or. well I think variety just in general is. a very important aspect of speaking. so you talked about people who are. monotonic and that literally means One. Tone so if I speak like this through the. whole podcast it would be extremely. boring for people there's not a lot of.

intonation going on there I don't get. any emotional resonance speaking like. that so it's it's just boring so. intonation the up and down of speaking. is really important. it's also crucial to be sensitive to. cultural differences in that for example. in scandalavia they have much restricted. prosody or intonation compared to say. the Latin countries where you know.

people are like why is it very up and. down like this at the whole time I'm. croaking here. um I remember doing a talk in in Finland. in The Amazing concert Center in. Helsinki which was designed by a. brilliant architect called Toyota and is. acoustically unbelievable and at the end. of my talk there was a little tiny. Ripple of Applause and I thought ah. bombed they didn't like it you know. they've been America it'd be whooping. and hollering and whatever going on and. I went down for a coffee and people came.

up to me and said thank you that was the. best talk we have had for some years. that's fins for you they're very. taciturned quiet people they don't get. very excited much. so unless they've had a vodka perhaps. but you have to be adjusting to the. prosody or president of the audience. you're speaking to what's prostitute. president is both intonation so the up. and down delivery which is Route One for. emotion it's it's absolutely crucial in. speaking.

and it's also the rhythm of your. speaking the the gaps you leave and the. emphasis you put on words so it's. understanding how to it's not just. reading a script flat it's putting your. personality into what you're saying and. that makes all the difference in the. world. so anybody who it's interesting I mean I. have friends who run um voiceover. Studios and. actors come in to read things TV. commercials books and whatnot. some actors can read some can't.

it's not a skill that everybody. possesses to be able to. read something or speak in an. interesting way that's not a script you. learn and then you really really work on. it and so forth just reading something. it's quite. technical actually you have to get. yourself out of the way. so yes working on your voice is. um. about variety it's about breathing it's.

about being comfortable with silence for. example. not filling every tiny little Gap with. arms as you knows you know what I means. verbal ticks. so all of these things it's quite. important to record yourself listen back. and start to take it as a skill and as. Mastery become your own coach. effectively I mean I'm sure you watch. back your podcasts and there's always. something to learn there's always.

something to look at and to say oh okay. I could have not done that or I could. have said that better or whatever it. might be and that's how we become. Masters and of course you can get a. coach a vocal coach a singing coach a. drama coach an acting coach a speaking. coach there are lots of them out there. so anybody who's. for example got restricted Timbre I mean. Timbre is the quality of your voice. and we tend to like voices that we would. describe in the way we would describe a. hot chocolate rich dark warm sweet.

smooth all of those words. if that's not you listening to this when. you have a great voice but if it's if. it's not if somebody's got a thin. squeaky voice or scratchy Voice or. whatever it may be get a vocal coach it. can be worked on these are things that. normally we're in a habit the way we. speak is partly derived from our. physical being. I mean we have a body there are resonant. cavities we have vocal cords but it's.

also how we use it and that's much more. important. anybody can learn to maximize their. voice and to make the most the most of. it. so that's about the instrument itself. and then how you play it what emotion. you put into it whether you're conscious. you know the thing I love most about. public speaking. it's making me more conscious in that. moment than anywhere else. standing on the stage you know I've I've. talked to audiences of 11 000 people.

there's a big Spotlight there's cameras. on you you're standing on a stage 11 000. people are looking at you if you're not. conscious in that moment you've got a. problem you know so every gesture every. moment of that. is maximum consciousness of. being me and and communicating with. those people. so it's kind of like switching the light. on to maximum intensity. and I really love that that that. experience has colored the way I treat.

life in general now because you know. it's my my biggest passion is to become. more and more conscious. to grow a little every day to become. more conscious every day. and speaking helps with that. I've never really talked about it before. but we um we've deleted a few episodes. of this podcast so don't worry this is a. perfect episode but what will happen is. we've had a guest come and they might be. honestly there's some cases where they. are the biggest in the world in their. industry and I can think of one. particular example where if I said the.

name of the guest that we had the. episode we had deleted people would be. shocked because I believe they are one. of the biggest stars in the world they. have like 50 60 million followers online. um and then there's another individual. I'll think about who if I said the name. now everyone knows this person they're a. legend in many respects. um but we deleted that episode as well. and content is a factor but the other. factor that really really does. and result in that decision is I I think. it'll be really difficult to listen to. and I feel like I have this sense of.

responsibility on a Monday and a. Thursday when we publish that even if. they don't know the name our audience. will listen and we see that in the. numbers if we publish a no-namer or a. superstar we get the same amount of. Clicks in the opening 24 hours roughly. because people are going I don't care I. trust this team to put people out there. so I just wanted to really state that. because there's I know there's a lot of. people that want to come on this podcast. there's a lot of like big CEOs that. contact us and one of the most important. things in my decision criteria is. literally how engaging they are at.

speaking and from that I mean the. instrument the delivery. um so I just don't think it's funny when. you were talking I was thinking about. individuals that have said no too big. and they don't maybe I should give them. feedback but maybe that's not my place. it's literally about delivery. um so often so let's let's continue then. on the thread of of delivery you're. talking about standing there speaking in. front of 11 000 people on a stage one of. the things that I'm sure would stop most. of us from even endeavoring to do such a. thing is a lack of confidence. you've got almost a hundred thousand.

students online some something crazy. like that that are all coming to do your. courses and to learn from you. confidence must be one of the first. conversations you you you have right to. get someone to be a great speaker. yeah it's important although it's. interesting to note that a lot of the. people who've given some of the best TED. Talks. like me are actually introverts I'm not. an extrovert it's not that natural for. me to do these things. and it's also true of people like Susan.

Kane introvert you can stand on a stage. and you can. overcome the fear which is part of. growing as a human being I think. um doing things which are challenging. and pushing through the barriers and. doing it anyway. so yes confidence is important I mean we. could have a long conversation about. confidence because I was educated in a. top Public School. and I think one of the things that top. public schools in the UK do is to give.

you an overbearing arrogance. and um to make you absolutely convinced. that you know everything about. everything. and more than that the ability to sound. convincing and to persuade people that. that is in fact the case. and it's taken me decades to get over. that at actually to discover humility. and to discover The Importance of Being. you know authentic about what I actually. can do. so yes I think.

public speaking like anything else it's. like riding a bike if you do it enough. you become confident you know the first. time you or I drove a car our hands were. welded to the wheel you know we were. shaking with Terror now you drive a car. and you think about everything but. driving you know so it's just falling. off a log I've done enough speaking now. that's. I do not get frightened anymore nervous. yes nervous is good nervous gives you. the right chemicals to perform at your. Peak. so I never want to lose contact with.

that. and I think that's true of anybody only. a professional footballer before a game. nerves will be there adrenaline it's. it's taking you up to the next level. once you get bored with what you're. doing. should you be doing it that's a big. question. but the confidence to do it comes from. practice and that's what I always say to. people it's part of my course you know I. talk about doing things just just doing.

the thing. speaking in public. Toastmasters for example you know. they're in every city in the world you. can go and join a Toastmasters chapter. and and start speaking in front of. people that's what they do and as you do. it you become more and more familiar. with. the what goes on and that you know it. isn't actually the end of the world. nobody is actually going to stand up and. and call you out for being a useless. numpty you know you know even if you. forget your words you can actually say.

I'm terribly sorry I've forgotten where. I was and everybody I mean I've seen. that happen at Ted. okay people who rely on memory which is. a very very high risk strategy to me you. know I always use slides but if you go. on stage and you've got a Memory Palace. or a chain or one of those routes and. you're like relying on that and you lose. the chain breaks and your cast adrift in. an ocean of Terror I've seen it happen. and what happens when somebody goes red. and starts shaking and says I'm so sorry.

I've completely forgotten what comes. next the audience start to applaud. because they're on your side it's not. the end of the world and actually that. can make a deeper relationship than. being slick and perfect and and. Brilliant at every moment I've seen. people who are overconfident over. rehearsed where you know every one of. those gestures has been rehearsed a. hundred times and it was there for the I. mean there was a time at Ted when it was. almost a Reger to cry in a TED Talk. and I remember saying there was a talk.

by uh you know an international Banker. or something about economics who halfway. through talked about his fatherhood. deceased and the tears came I thought. please this is this is like being put in. by a coach who says you've got to. connect emotionally. and it was just incongruous really so. I think it's all about being yourself I. mean that's the a of hail being. authentic. uh being yourself is fine it's so much. easier than trying to be somebody else. and having the faith that if you are.

yourself and you've got a good message. that people will be with you on the. journey and will be on your side that's. certainly the case that Ted people don't. go to it's not a stand-up comedy night. where people throw things and Heckle. it's a place where people expect to. learn to be transported to be changed by. almost every talk. so the talk does that they love you on. the on the a point in hell I've come to.

learn that I think humans are much. better at spotting authenticity than we. give them credit for big time I I think. so from our own perspective we think we. can blag it and we we underestimate how. um how much the viewer or the person I'm. trying to blag it to understands I'm not. being authentic. like we think we're better much better. actors than we actually are and it's. funny the one of the things that's put. this friend of mine for me at the moment. is about three weeks ago there was a CEO.

that went viral on LinkedIn because he. had fired multiple members of his team. and then he had taken a photo of himself. crying and uploaded it with like a. really like sorry caption like I'm so. sorry today I had a really tough day I. had to find members of my team and as. you look at that. it just feels wrong it's almost hard to. explain it but the I think your mind. goes well he would have had to cry a. very unnatural thing to do mid crying is. to pick up your phone and take a selfie. and then to go to social media so on.

that point of authenticity. um is your suspicion the same that we. people are much better at spotting. someone being inauthentic than we. believe than we understand. I think so we live in a world where um. social media and. um viral opinion spreading make it quite. hard to be truly inauthentic I mean. there's a lot of companies a lot of. individuals who do what's now called. virtue signaling. and people can spot that you know we can.

we can catch the whiff of manipulative. inauthentic stances that are trying to. put us across in um the most the best. the most acceptable way whatever the. current you know meal is whatever the. current. um style is to be utterly acceptable and. socially right. so to me this is again this is part of. the human need to be right. and to be seen to be right which is. huge problem in the world right now.

I think I mean we're seeing silos all. over the world the interventors have. made this way way worse where you know. you go online and you say there you are. I know I was right 10 000 people agree. with me yeah but there's a million who. don't but you don't go and ask them you. just go and find the people you agree. with in order to validate your point of. view and that is why we get these. extreme you know um conspiracy theory. silos of people who have nutty views and. are persuading each other that they're. right because they only talk to each.

other they don't go and. check you know kick the tires of the. thing and check is there an alternative. hypothesis here that would be perhaps. worth entertaining so I think that's a. bit dangerous uh at the moment and it's. all about this need to be right and of. course what's the easiest way for me to. be right is to make you wrong. if you're wrong I am writer. and that is a slippery slope that's a. slippery slope of depersonalization of. dehumanization of.

um bias and and hatred and you know at. the bottom of that slope is the kind of. the Isis answer to the world disagree. with me I'll kill you. so that's a dangerous slope and the. media have been contributing to that. slope you know this all this outrage. addiction that we see in the world. that's outrageous somebody's to blame. somebody should be punished and that's. all me saying yeah somebody should be. punished I'm right they're wrong. so it's this kind of ego fire that we. have Building inside of us the desire to.

be the rightest person and to cancel. everyone else that's absolutely Council. Council and make people wrong left right. and Center be judgmental that's one of. the seven deadly sins I talked about in. that in that Ted Talk is judgmentalism. is is pointing the finger at people you. know the kind of parent whose son or. daughter comes home and says I got 95 in. the test and says what happened to the. other five you know this it's difficult. to be around people who are that. finger pointy. the other thing with with those with.

that a point inhale authenticity that. I've come to learn actually from doing. this podcast is um there's a real cost. mentally to being inauthentic for a long. period of time and I see I see it time. and time and time again when I sit here. with people who were forced to be in the. media or who were first forced to not. forced but chose to play a role or a. character in the public eye and then. their identity became they kind of their. true authentic self became imprisoned by. this public identity that they felt they. had to keep up and then the midlife.

crisis comes it's usually like 35 45. where they have some kind of burnout. blowout they find themselves in the case. of one of my guests last week just. coming home and crying every day and. having no idea why they're crying. because they'd spent a decade being. inauthentic in every interaction because. they felt they had to sometimes to. survive because of some early trauma. um and we don't talk about that enough. that and I've you know I've learned it. from doing this podcast myself as in the. most liberating thing for me ever is to. sit here in my socks in my house saying.

whatever I want for three hours and. knowing that quite honestly if I tweeted. it I'd get dragged it would get quite. retweeted people taken out of context. and goes into different Echo Chambers. and they all try and. um find a way to get likes off what I've. said whereas I can sit here and say. anything about pretty much. anything in my most authentic self it's. like a weight I get to lift every day. um and it's been so good for my mind. but do you know what the biggest. challenge is about being authentic. what's that was knowing who you actually.

are yeah good point so what are your. values Stephen it's a good question. because because you know when people. asked. I'm so scared of saying. what I think people want to hear how do. I know what my values are you write them. down you think about it what I would. what I would write down. I'm worried that what I would write down. are things that have been so deeply. conditioned to be my values by Society. well okay yeah that's worth challenging. isn't it so this is a great exercise I.

mean I strongly recommend everybody does. this because not many people do you know. we just live our life in this kind of um. bumping into things making that up as we. go a long way if you have values that's. your moral compass if you have values. that's that's you tending to Define who. you are then you can be authentic what. is a value this sounds like a crazy. thing for me to say but I want to be. really clear like what is a value it's. something that you believe in that is um. what they call in business a North star. for your life it's something that you.

will sacrifice to achieve so I carry. mine okay I've got four values which I. made into an acronym because I have a. terrible memory so I like acronyms the. acronym is flag so they are Faith. and that is all will be well I'm not. talking about a religious faith I'm just. talking about the sense that all will be. well because to me if I have faith that. the future will be okay it gives me the. courage to take things on try things and. find out you know it may be a disaster. but if I get to the disaster I've had a.

nicer Journey than if I am always oh. it's going to be a disaster it's going. to be a disaster there you are I told. you well I've had a miserable journey. and I've ended up a disaster. so I I prefer to go the way of it'll be. okay oh it's not yeah but even then. it'll be okay to find a way yeah uh so. Faith the L is love. by which I mean thinking well of people. and there's a great practice that. um a very wise old friend of mine gave.

me many many years ago which is amazing. um instead of walking around you know. we're in London right now well I live in. a much more remote place so you walking. around London you're always walking. through people and we have this if we're. not careful we have this nasty voice in. our head get out of my way you fatted. yet and oh you're ugly and you're stupid. and you know this kind of nasty side of. us which is doing a little monologue and. being really judgmental and critical. about people. instead of that it's cultivating habit.

of saying in the head not out loud bless. you. not religiously again just bless you I. wish you well I'll leave you get into. that habit of walking around going bless. you person who just got in my way. it is amazing the difference it makes to. your likeness of being it's like walking. floating three inches above the ground. you meet people's gaze. and you might even share a smile because. you're not guilty about you or just. thinking they're horrible.

you know whereas you've got this nasty. voice going on in your head all the time. you don't look at people in case you. catch their eye and they can see what. you were thinking. so love in that way wishing people well. um and of course love for family and. love for well love for life as well just. being positive you know uh the a is. acceptance which is a really important. thing to me and I tend to try and go. with the flow if an opportunity comes. along I'll try that there's a reason.

that's come along so I'm not getting. into you know the secret or any of those. things but I do tend to believe that. things come to me for a reason. um you know whether it's God or the. universe or whatever one wants to say. I'm happy to go with the flow and to. accept also when things don't work you. know I don't bang my head against a. brick wall forever trying to make them. work okay that's not working we'll try. something else so acceptance and also of. people as they are that's really really. important. we spend a lot of time disparaging.

people why are you like this why are you. doing this well that's the kind of tree. that person is. and you know you don't get angry at. trees for being that kind of tree so. that is the kind of person that is in. front of you except someone once said. something to you in the podcast which. plays into that they said if if you had. been through. if you'd walked in their shoes and had. their experiences you'd be doing the. exact same oh totally well let's come on. to validation in a minute the and then. the G of um flag can I guess yes is it.

gratitude yes it totally is. um I you know I I don't like that catch. phrase and attitude of gratitude but it. is really important to me uh you know to. do a gratitude list when I'm feeling. miserable when I'm feeling down you know. I've got a cold yes but let's now look. at all the good things I've got in my. life you know I have a loving partner I. have two gorgeous little children I live. an amazing orkney which is a joy every. day you know there are so many things to. be grateful for.

and I've got some Financial Security. I've got uh you know so much in life to. to be thankful for that way outweighs. normally the the bad things now that's. not true for everybody you know if I. were living in cursing at the moment for. example or somewhere like that there. would be a lot more to be ungrateful for. to be frightened about and so forth so. I'm not saying that in a kind of bland. way but even in the worst places. it's important to focus our attention on.

the good things. because a lot of this is about where you. focus isn't it all the time reality is. huge it's all around us we don't. perceive reality we have a map in our. head. and it's up to us to select what it is. that we pay attention to. so that's you know it's very much the. same as as listening which is selecting. certain things to pay attention to and. then making them mean something. well it's the same with gratitude.

there's always something or usually. there's something you can focus on and. say okay there's a thing I can be. grateful for. so that's it yeah Faith love acceptance. gratitude so those are mine and I know. that's my moral compass and that's what. I try to be in life and I do recommend. to anybody listening to this if you've. never written your values down. think about it not the ones that you. think will be accepted by more people. out there the ones that actually ring. true in your heart what does your heart. tell you and then you've got a map uh.

you've got a you've got a root you've. got a direction in life which I think is. incredibly important quick word from my. sponsor guys. um these days as I'm sure a lot of you. know flexibility matters more than ever. before because the tectonic plates in. which we've built our businesses are. changing overnight especially for SME. business owners which is why I've. partnered with Vodafone business who. have created a new flexible Business. Solution for small to medium-sized. businesses called Vodafone pulse connect. this package includes all of your.

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a point about um if you were in their. shoes you if you'd live their life you'd. be doing the validation yeah yeah what. is this validation uh well it's part of. active listening so you know if we talk. about listening. um I talk about listening positions. and one of those is active listening so. it's a place to listen from. and inactive listening to me there are. three stages so stage one is reflection. where I repeat exactly what you said. without coloring it without making it.

make sense in the way that I understand. but I say something along the lines of. okay what I just heard you say is which. can be a bit formulaic or you know so. you said this or so are you saying this. so I'm checking that I actually got what. you said I heard you it's amazing how we. don't very often do that so stage one is. reflection. which is used in the therapeutic. professions a great deal. I hear you say this.

stage two stages of being a great. listener it's a very important form of. listening it's not appropriate all the. time to be an active listening. um because it's kind of a sledgehammer. to crack a nut in Social conversations. for example you know if we were sitting. in a in a pub or a coffee house and I'm. going what I heard you say Stephen is. this well and then validation goes um. okay I understand it makes sense that. you would feel that. I totally get why you would think that's.

true I disagree with you but I. understand why you think that because. then I'm thinking about your background. and your road to this conversation and. we've come different roads to this. conversation and you will have different. life experiences. so validation is really important that's. the empathy bit of active listening and. once I've reflected and validated. then we're into stage three which is I. can contribute. so as opposed to me invalidating yeah oh.

don't no that's nonsense to you why. would you think that you know we do so. much in validating in the world of other. people's positions and you can't sell to. somebody or persuade somebody if you. invalidate them as a human being. it's really important to validate. to show that you understand where that. person is coming from even if you. completely disagree then we can start to. put things together and make sense and. move forward I'm thinking of every.

romantic conflict I've ever had but also. I you took me back to many client. meetings where the client brings forth a. concern or a problem. um and in that moment you even if you. disagree you know you have to show. you've accepted their concern and then. use that acceptance that place of. empathy to move them to another place of. thinking but also you know obviously the. most obvious. scenario people will think of is with. their Partners when they're trying to do. conflict resolution you know so what's.

the biggest complaint in relationships. he or she never listens to me. and that's not just about hearing the. words it's about validating the other. person or invalidating the other person. and if we do that as a habit it can be. very damaging there's a thing actually. uh called stress induced audio. dysfunction s-i-a-d. which can afflict people when there's a. noise that they are exposed to a great. deal and they don't like and they.

psychologically start to wipe it out. so for example my father in the later. years of his life was deaf at the. frequency of my mother's voice. and that's not uncommon in relationships. where one partner is in the habit of. hectoring. or nagging at the other partner and they. simply cease to be able to hear it. because it's a noise they don't enjoy. just like it you know it can happen to. people with industrial noise or.

irritating noises. uh so it is really important not to be. invalidating somebody as a habit and we. can easily fall into that habit and it's. so powerful in relationship to be. validating people you know one of the. seven deadly sins I talk about in in. that Ted Talk is negativity. and that's a very strong habit that. people can fall into so you can audit. that how often do I say the word no or. not or can't anything negative like that.

because if that's a habit that you fall. into it tends to lead to invalidating. other people a great deal I can't do. that I don't see why you'd think that. you can't be serious you know and that's. not a very nice way to behave with. people even if you don't agree even if. they are being stupid. I can see why you think that. now would you like an alternative. perspective. can I give you a different way of. looking at it that might be useful to.

you. so you've said you know what you're. doing is not worthless it's not stupid. but maybe there's another way and that's. respectful I think everyone has the. experience of invalidating someone and. them then repeating themselves and then. you invalidate them again and then they. repeat themselves yeah that's called. argumentation yeah well I know it well. because I think in my previous. relationships I would it was funny. because I think I was the problem I was. definitely the the one that was.

unwilling to allow them to feel heard. it's the it's the joy of listening. actually. um listening is at the heart of all good. relationships to me and if you listen to. somebody I mean what was it Scott Peck. said you cannot truly listen to another. human being and do anything else at the. same time. and I absolutely agree with that because. it's so rare in this world now we're so. distracted. um you know I I'm a big fan of near. isle's book. um indestructible yeah because we are so.

prone to being distracted now I am. listening to you now you're sending a. text that's not listening that's doing. something else so it's rare that we will. put everything down. and do what you and I are doing right. now which is look each other in the eye. you know when you look when you're. listening I've got an acronym for this. um in in the book in the courses and so. forth rasa Russia which is r-a-s-a and. the r is receive and that means look at. the person who's speaking the dance of. the eyes in in the west tends to be that.

the person who's speaking. looks around. as I am now you know thinking about. other things and checks back in from. time to time to see if the other. person's still listening. if you're with somebody who's speaking. and they look at you the whole time it. can become a little bit intimidating I. mean we're in a slightly unnatural. situation here so you know we're across. a table from each other which is you. know potentially conflicting. but we're you know really making an.

effort to communicate here so you know. I'm looking at you quite a lot more than. I would if we were just you know in a. street or. um you know having a chat. so that's rasa the r is receive which is. pay attention body language facing the. person not feet pointing towards the. door which is always a good indication. that somebody actually doesn't want to. listen to you not doing anything else at. the same time. the a uh is appreciate which is little. noises and head Bobs and gestures you.

know eyebrow raises Smiles oh really ah. those kind of things that oil the. conversation the s is. summarizing which is the word so and I. get very angry about the word so. actually it's been. totally debased in the modern world for. some reason it's become a habit for. people to start every sentence with the. word so. so what's your name so I'm John. what you're John because I just asked.

you because so means therefore no you. were John before and you're going to be. John afterwards the word so doesn't I've. seen people come onto the Ted stage and. say so no I don't know who you are I. don't know what you're going to say. there is no before. um it is debased a lot but it's such a. powerful word. so we've all agreed this now we can move. on to that or in the long Corridor of a. conversation so what I understood you. just said is this is that right the old. repeating reflecting and so forth.

closing doors behind you in the corridor. so you can move on and keep moving. forward. so that's the S of rasa and the final a. is ask asking questions at the beginning. during afterwards you know people often. say to me I I don't feel confident. people don't listen to me how can I. engage with people when they're speaking. the answer is asking questions and if. you're on a bit of territory that feels. unfamiliar or uncomfortable you can ask. questions that form linking that's.

really interesting Stephen you just said. that How would how would that relate to. this thing I know about. so I can kind of bring the conversation. to home turf and start to feel I can. contribute something. so that's rasa and that really helps in. a conversation to direct listening and. to and to make the conversation fruitful. for both parties. so yes therefore. one of the things you said that um.

reminded me of another topic which I. think is really important when we're. talking about speaking which is how to. speak with with authority I think about. all the people that are in boardrooms. and that might be a little bit Junior in. an organization and that's struggling to. be heard because they don't lack the. The Authority that a title will give. them how does one speak with authority. what advice can you give me to be a more. authoritative speaker. um in in work in life my relationships. wherever. well let's steal the situation first. where you're talking you you want to. speak to somebody who is a powerful.

figure or you consider them to be. powerful. um I'm a great believer in agreements. contracts in an informal way. Stephen do you have five minutes I've. got something I really want you to. listen to. well that puts you in a position you can. either say yes or no if you say no. that's fine I won't say it now when. would be a good time. but I'll tell you a great experience I. once had on a beach in India and this is.

one of the best sales people I've ever. met it was about a seven-year-old boy. and he came up I was sitting on the. beach he came and said you want Coke. and I said um you're trying to be. British not right now thank you very. much okay when you want Coke. oh uh well four o'clock at four o'clock. he was back here your Coke. I love that it was brilliant so it. taught me a lot about. um being authentic because I wasn't. being was I no I don't want to buy a. Coke from you.

um and also about persistence and you. know asking the right questions and and. so forth so in the same way if I ask you. do you have five minutes and you don't I. can park it and come back another time. because it wouldn't be the right time if. you haven't got five minutes that's fine. I can respect your time but from your. point of view yes okay I've got five. minutes and you have just made a. commitment to listen to me so I have a. right if I'm talking to you and you're. off doing something else you know. answering email or something Stephen you.

said you had five minutes I do. understand if you're busy when would be. a better time so there's a kind of. obligation there for you to listen to me. so that's one thing I think that's a. strategy that works very well if you're. on a meeting. and you don't feel you're the most. powerful person then again asking the. meeting for permission is a good thing. uh guys I have something that I think. really will contribute here would it be. a good time now to say it to you all.

it doesn't always work but I think if. you're asking and people give you a. commitment then you have a contract and. you have a Channel of communication. that's been opened explicitly. one of the things you talked about there. is that kid on the beach with the um. Coca-Cola offering you a can of Coke. and how that kind of violates your. a inhale the authenticity piece. um it also violates the honesty.

so. my question is. is there a time when one should not be. honest. well I think that the honesty needs to. be tempered with love. so the answer is it's a filter which is. the L inhale as well absolutely okay. I think that uh being dedicated to. ruthless permanent uh always on honesty. is a pretty dangerous strategy in life. because you'd be going around saying to.

people you look terrible today I really. don't like you what you just said was. stupid you know it's not necessary to. say those things to people depends on. what you want to achieve I don't think. it's dishonest to withhold. judgment. and a lot of the things I just said are. opinions. and it's very important to distinguish. between opinions and facts they're not. the same thing and they're very often. confused in the modern world so opinions. that's what I think what I believe what.

I judge. fact it's Saturday matter of fact we're. not going to disagree about that we can. disagree about my opinions and you know. I often say I wish that we lived in a. society where perhaps people asked. before giving opinion would you like my. opinion on that no. I had such a good opinion all ready to. go and you don't want it but we don't do. that do we we just proffer opinions and. and a lot of the time we we confuse them. with facts which leads to a lot of table.

thumping I grew up in a family where. there was that confusion there was a lot. of argumentation and table thumping. because people had different opinions. and didn't accept that they could. possibly be challenged talking about. your parents talking about your mother. no my father actually he was a my father. was a massively confident and very. successful man in advertising he was you. know he was known as Mr advertising. um for some years in the 1960s. hugely confident and hugely.

expressed in that way but didn't Brook. disagreement very easily. so disagreeing with him was quite. difficult. and that was certainly my experience. growing up that you had to be ready with. chapter and verse and references if you. were going to challenge a point of view. how did how did that shape you because I. think a lot about how my parents you. know my mum was sounded a little bit. like what you described earlier where. shouted so much at my dad that I I.

couldn't understand how he stopped. reacting to the sound of the shouting as. a young age I remember wanting them to. divorce because I didn't like shouting. for six hours my dad would not really. shout back but um that definitely has. shaped how I communicate now but how did. it shape you that that environment well. very similar I mean I think you know my. first response to conflict is exit. it's the same strategy really and I. think probably a lot of uh quieter. people who've had the experience of.

conflict growing up are pretty conflict. diverse and I think that's it's quite. important to toughen up on that to a. degree. because conflict exists all over the. place I'm not talking about physical. conflict which of course we want to. avoid at all at all times but uh um. disagreement. or somebody being crossed with us. or somebody being upset well sometimes. those are necessary in life. and responding to those in inappropriate.

ways can actually really damage. relationships I mean I talk about four. leeches which undermine communication. and the fourth of those is fixing. fixing is it's not okay for somebody to. be upset around me don't be upset don't. cry don't express emotion you know uh so. it's it's a kind of smothering of. everything that goes on around. um I'll tell you a story about that my.

art told me um when her little sister. was due to be born with my grandparents. there was great excitement they. decorated the nursery uh the the the. room was made already came the day off. her parents went to the hospital and she. was beside herself with excitement aged. about six. they returned no baby. never was a word said about the whole. thing because they didn't want to upset. her. and what she learned from that for the.

rest of her life was you can't trust. people people don't tell you what's. going on you never know your people. aren't straight you know there were a. lot of bad lessons she learned out of. that lack of communication. the child had been still born it was a. tragedy they were upset but they didn't. share it with their daughter because. they didn't want to upset her that's. fixing. and it can be enormously damaging in. relationships to behave in that way. obviously one wants to be sensitive you. know you sit the child down you explain.

in little ways perhaps starting off with. you know the baby's not coming and then. moving on to explain what happened as. the child gets older. um Jane and I had to survive uh having. uh a baby who could not survive and it. was deeply traumatic for us. um and I'm very glad to say that with. Holly we involved her every step of the. way Holly was. uh what six at the time five I can't. remember.

um but we brought her in you know when. um. Little Lily was still born we brought. her in she met Lily we called Lily a. name you know we did everything we. possibly could and Holly still talks. about Lily she talks as if she can. communicate with her she she accounts. her as a member of the family so we. didn't fall into that trap of pretending. nothing had happened and fixing. sometimes people need to be upset you. know Holly was upset we were upset and.

it's authentic to be upset. so I think being that averse to upset is. quite a dangerous thing in life. it's funny because when you told that. story I was engrossed. I was engrossed for a number of reasons. that exact point there when you said. that I was engrossed and I've spoken a. lot about the delivery itself of a point. and a story but um not a lot about what. it takes to design the content in a way. where you can engross somebody.

what advice would you give to someone. that is. potentially you know presenting has a. pitch coming up is going to do a podcast. about how to deliver their thoughts in a. way which is engrossing. as it relates to the content itself. because I can I can Hazard a guess as to. why I was engrossed but well it's a. story yes story we love stories. storytelling is really really powerful I. mean what's the number one Ted Talk of. all time it's a talk by Sir Ken Robinson. sadly missed dead now but see a. wonderful man and at the heart of that. talk is a little story he tells because.

the thesis of the talk is that we're. educating creativity out of children. that's what his talk is saying and he. tells this story about a little girl. who's drawing at the back of the class. and she doesn't normally and the teacher. goes to the back and says what are you. drawing and the little girl says I'm. drawing a picture of God. and the teacher says but nobody knows. what God looks like and the little girl. says they will in a minute. it's a classic story it takes 15 seconds. to tell it makes me laugh every time.

that is his whole Ted talk in a. beautiful encapsulating enchanting story. storytelling is the best way to get any. talk across really if you can think of a. a metaphor. which matches what you're trying to. communicate to people. in a captivating story where perhaps. there's you know the classic elements of. a story there's a protagonist there's an. antagonist there are challenges there's. a journey there's a destination there's.

help on the way from unexpected quarters. obstacles to overcome you can do it in a. very short space of time you can do it. as a personal story as I did in my TED. talk about uh my mum's negativity you. know that's a true story that you know. she was in hospital I took a paper in. and I said oh look it's October the 1st. and she said I know isn't it Dreadful. and I you know well if somebody's that. negative. it's very difficult to be around them. and that was a true story that I told.

so it's almost like uh you could have a. little storytelling niche in your talk. you know I'm gonna can I tell you a. story and everybody goes oh yes come on. SO storytelling is a massive massively. powerful way there are books on this uh. if anybody wants to speak in a. captivating way become a good. Storyteller and it will really really. help. but the other big part of it I always. say. is. understanding the listening you're. speaking into.

say that again. understanding the listening that you're. speaking into okay. because we all have unique listening. this is something it's the most common. mistake I see in business in. relationships is people thinking. everybody listens like I do. they don't. our listening is unique your listening. is as unique as your your irises your. fingerprints your voice print and so is. mine and they're different. so it's a huge mistake to assume other. people are going to receive this message.

the way I would receive it. so it's a massively valuable tool if. you're speaking to one person or ten. thousand doesn't matter to say what's. the listening I'm speaking into. what's the listening I'm speaking into. who is this person. what's their listening where will it. have come from or who are these 10 000. people because in a big room you have a. Gestalt listening. which changes over time. you know that I've done talks.

immediately after lunch in what they. call the graveyard slot he's a Ted. talker he can cope with that and. everybody's a bit woozy the blood's all. gone to their guts they're a bit tired. they're not very bright you know or. there's the final slot in the day just. before people are leaving when they're. all desperate to go and have a drink in. the bar or something you know there are. different listenings through the day. and different listenings from person to. person. so it's not a fixed thing and it's. important to be sensitive. and actually do you know what I've.

discovered is all you have to do is ask. the question. what's the listening and you become. really good at spotting it I don't know. how it might be tiny body language cues. it might be pheromones it might be. intuition whatever it is you will if you. pay attention to it and you ask that. question consciously at least you're. respecting the other person enough to. say this person speaks really slowly so.

I should probably slow my Pace down a. little bit. or this is a really really fast person. so let's be Buzzy here or you know they. might have cultural or uh they might. have political views or something like. that that you need to be sensitive to if. you're trying to achieve something. the the point as well about about. storytelling I was I was fascinated by. it because it reminded me of um. my time at Social chain we bought the. social media company. um we never had us outbound sales team.

our strategy was kind of there was maybe. fourfolds but the two that are most. pertinent what I'm to the point I'm. making are personal branding and. speaking on stage so we grow our. business from nothing to tens and tens. and tens of millions in Revenue the. agency business the global business 600. 700 million in Revenue never with an. outbound sales team and the the sole. thesis which I don't think people ever. realize who are trying to scale an. agency is we just told really great. stories and the best way that I can.

demonstrate this is I remember my first. talk when I started social chain at. maybe 21 years old and I was in London. and I woke up on stage and I say. that's exactly why you were kicked out. of school you're incapable of listening. to anybody and you always think you know. a better way don't call me or the family. until you go back to University. and with that my mum hung up the phone. that's how I started all of my talks for. about four years I'm trying to sell you. social media advertising here and at the. end of this the presentation you would.

find out what happened with minor mum's. relationship so it'd be this heart and. it would say and me and my mum have. never had a better relationship and I. genuinely you know of all the things we. did as a business I genuinely believe. that I was speaking 50 weeks a year I. was going to every corner of the world. meeting every brand our biggest brands. like Coca-Cola they all came from. hearing that exact talk with about my. mum. um. the conventional and the the normal. thing to do is to bring information. I'll give you as much information as I.

can you see it in every slide deck every. pitch deck but we all know from a human. level the best part of this conversation. is going to be the stories yeah of. course it's going to be engaging people. and causing them to be curious. curiosity is absolutely fundamental in. listening now I talk about four C's of. listening which are. um compassion. for the other person for the audience. whatever it might be commitment because. it takes time and effort to listen.

listening is work it's not just a. capability yes we have ears but we. actually have to put things down focus. and so forth Consciousness that you're. actually doing something now this is an. action this is not something that goes. on in the background. and curiosity. and if you can engender those things in. people. especially the Curiosity which we get. with stories especially if you start a. story and you don't finish it. come on Stephen we want to know what.

happens at the end yeah yeah so you then. got the bit in the Middle where they're. all going I really want to know what. happened at the end and then you give. them the end at the at the end to. satisfy them that is a brilliant way of. engaging people. could listening to this and. actually that's funny because I was. actually reflecting on we I told you my. company in San Francisco has just raised. a lot of money and I broke all the rules. that I've just said it's just it's just. there's 10 slides of just information I. mean it worked but I think it's funny. because I actually thought I don't.

actually care if it worked I would have. liked to do it my way yeah you know well. also because you're then kind of. conforming to the the Norms out there. which is that's where everybody does. stuff that's a deck you know I mean I. hate that word deck anyway but you know. here here let me show have you got a. good deck yeah but there's something in. in the actual design of the deck that. says way more about you than the. information ever will yeah and it's. funny because this is genuinely what's. going on in my head as he was talking. about storytelling is I was thinking. about how I should have structured sorry. for not listening but you just inspired. me to to go from this tangent in my head. cool I was thinking about how much I.

should have started that deck as a story. and that would have been so much more. gripping yeah. um versus just like put your logo on the. front and then you know you waffle into. like stats and figures I broke my own. rule there and I'm kind of disappointed. my own personal philosophy which I. consider to be the most important thing. for not doing that it's a struggle for. me as well I mean I'm writing a book. right now about sound and what I'm. trying really hard to do is to get human. stories into it you know but I have a.

terrible memory and when I read great. books by people I mean I I read you know. books by people who've written amazing. books about all sorts of different. subjects. and what impresses me is they say on. March the 5th 1992 I had this. conversation with this person who walked. you know that way and did this thing and. said this thing and I think how how the. do you remember with you I mean I. have no idea what I was doing in 1992. I don't remember my childhood so it is. you know it's quite a big problem if.

like me you were kind of in a miasma of. I mean it's very good because I'm a. great believer in be here now and living. in the common in the in the the current. moment living in this instant which is. all the life we ever have this instant. the the future hasn't happened the past. has there's nothing we can do about. either of them much at this instant. so being here now is really important to. me. but it's kind of become an excuse almost. for me for getting everything I do too. imagine imagine how many I have the. privilege of sitting here with the.

smartest people in the world who are. giving me all these amazing things so. you're massively wise yeah you would. think so but I sit here and I go oh my. God flag I'm gonna write that down later. and then we get an hour and a half in. and I'm just my it's like I've got this. short-term memory yeah the thing I I. fall back on is I go the best stuff will. stay with me because it will help me in. such a deep emotional way that I won't. be able to forget so maybe I'm just. absorbing the very best well maybe and. also you do have the privilege of having. recorded it all in high quality video. and audio so you can watch it back I.

don't always have the time to watch all. of them yeah but in the gym I try and. make sure I listen to them What would. life be like if we could watch back. everything that we've done all the. conversations that we've had and learn. from them blimey pretty scary yeah. I'd be a lot better as a of a human. being me too I know I tend to see life. it's it's a spiral staircase so the. important thing to me is to grow a. little bit every day that's the. important thing to learn something you. know even if it's how not to do.

something. so you know when I meet people that. evidently are making a mistake or doing. something wrong it's okay I learned not. to do that doesn't work very well. why have you struggled to grow. um but you have continually intended to. uh I would say uh in my nutrition more. than anything else probably I am very. fortunate to live with Jane who is a. four-time world champion martial artist. a health and fitness expert I train with.

her multiple times a week so you know. I'm a 64 year old man who can easily. touch his toes and uh is you know my. core strength and my flexibility are. amazing for somebody of my age. but I still eat too much I really enjoy. food and unfortunately not always the. right food I think that's again you know. that's something that comes from our. upbringing from our childhood where food. was very much a part of our family and. it was a reward and it was um you know.

my mother was a very very good cook as. well so there was always too much of it. and it was like a trough with me and my. brother sort of having huge helpings so. um I'm I I became acclimatized from a. very young age to having huge helpings. of not necessarily very healthy things. it's a tough one isn't it to adjust. one's upbringing and relationship with. food in that way so kale is good really. okay I have to kind of really learn some.

of those things and get away from Habits. which have been with me for 60 years or. more it's so deeply emotional though and. that's what we don't really ever. appreciate we think it's just a a. decision yes or no but it's actually. such a deeply emotional thing all of. these things are yeah um deeply. psychological so I actually I was funny. I was talking to my friends about this. the other day and I said I think if you. will because we're all trying to get in. shape and we're working out together Etc. um and my one of my friends was like.

well I'm gonna go on a diet I was like. the problem with that is it's not. sustainable what you're doing there is. you're you're depriving yourself you're. actually sacrificing something you want. to do how do you get I said I think that. the best way for all of us to get. healthier is actually to go see a. therapist. you know what you just said I absolutely. resonate with because Jane's always. saying to me that many times with. clients they come in and it's more of a. therapy session than a physical workout. because they're talking as they're doing. things and it's the talking that helps. them more than perhaps the exercise or. at least as much so you know I do get.

that and and adjusting one's whole. psyche to see things that were perceived. as treats in childhood as not really. treats and things that were perceived as. punishments or um you know really. negatively in charge of your Hail yeah. exercise go for a run do something you. know these things are actually good for. us and they're really important to do. it's funny because there is a sound. Associated to food yeah in the sense of. just a from a psychology or an emotional. perspective you know sweets.

it always sounds like that well the. sweet rapper's crinkle for a reason oh. yeah and so the crisp crisp packets are. crunchy for a reason uh because if you. had crisp packets in soggy you know. rubbery rubberized containers you. wouldn't think the crisps were going to. be fresh or as nice so the sound of. packaging certainly has a big effect on. the way we perceive taste I mean sound. and taste are very Associated I've never. heard broccoli said with excitement but.

I've heard McDonald's and sweets yeah. and Coke you know yeah but also from a. marketing and branding perspective you. know Brands like Coca-Cola spend so much. of their time trying to associate even. a bottle so sound has been used in. advertising for many many years in a. very profitable way I think the first. sound was Wheaties way back in about. 1926 and it was a four-part barber shop.

quartet who had a little song so have. you tried Wheaties and it massively. revolutionized the sales of Wheaties and. from that point on it's been huge and. appetizing. it was only a few years ago that I got a. ston to the term. audio branding and then I got really. obsessed with it because obviously. running a podcast people are listening. to our podcast every week it's in their. ears there's certain sounds they're. familiar with there's even certain. sayings at the start the podcast where I. say I hope nobody's listening for you.

I'll keep this to yourself they've. become accustomed to. um what is what is it to have a good. audio brand and how does if because. there's multiple CEOs and brand owners. that are listening to this that have. never considered the fact that they have. an audio brand as well how does one go. about doing that is it important. well the first thing to say is that all. businesses all organizations and all. brands are making sound already. because I've had a conversation lots of. times with marketing directors or CMOS. where I've said you know this is how.

powerful it is and they go oh maybe we. should start doing some sound you. already are it's just not designed it's. accidental it might be the sound of your. delivery trucks pissing people off at. four o'clock in the morning might be the. sound of your uh your on hold music or. your automated call handling system. press one for this press two for that. you know nine levels later you're still. going those kind of sounds can really be. damaging and can lose. unbelievable amounts of money for a. business I mean how many times have we.

slammed the phone down in frustration. that one of those systems which is. designed by a technical person not a. marketing person. um which doesn't I mean older people. hate them and we have an aging. demographic in every Western Country so. they're becoming less and less popular. so sounds like those can be enormously. damaging the sound of your corporate. reception the number of corporate. receptions I've walked into where. they've got a TV been on the wall with. news on and I remember you know when 9. 11 happened I walked into the reception.

of mechanics and in London they had big. TV screens with burning skyscrapers on. them. how are you expecting to have a good. meeting when you inflict that kind of. thing on people I suppose it's supposed. to say we're current and we're up to the. minute and we're you know in tune with. the world's events but news generally is. bad news I think it's unthinking yeah it. is someone just said put something on. there if you have a screen in reception. they have something playing about your. company that's informative that engages.

people not you know news especially not. commercial news which may have ads from. your competitors showing in your own. reception so those kind of sounds I. think are very mindless there's a huge. amount of mindlessness about sound we. design for the eyes largely and it's not. that often that companies think about. designing with the ears. so very often you have a company that. spends masses of money on visuals. whether it's a retailer you know like a. supermarket and doesn't think about the.

appalling sound of checkout beeps and. trolleys clashing and some awful tinned. music coming across on tiny little. loudspeakers that were never designed to. play music and so forth you know the. cacophony that you and I have to go. through a lot of the time in life which. is. the result of people not designing what. brands do that well. do sound well yeah generally. well. I think that Airlines and airplane. manufacturers and car manufacturers are.

getting very good at it in terms of. Designing the Sonic experience of using. the airplane I mean there is an. unbelievable noise on the fuselage of an. airplane traveling at 500 miles an hour. and inside you don't hear it so the. design in there is very good and the. same with cars these days most of them. sound very good although there's a thing. with electric cars we have electric cars. at slow speed they're very silent and it. can be dangerous so you need a noise to.

warn people the car is coming. um and you know a lot of the time they. make a nice chord or something like that. as they're moving through. um brands that have great powerful Sonic. logos there are plenty of those you. think of Intel for example down down. which is something you know if I say to. people can you sing intol's logo lots of. people can if I said to you can you draw. Intel's logo. no not really. squarish thing isn't it or something.

that sound which was designed by a guy. called Walter was our is worth hundreds. of millions of dollars to Intel and. brand value. and they have batteries of lawyers who. approve any tiny change to it because. it's a it's a trademark for them and. it's a really important one that's. consistency right because we've heard it. so much yeah is there anything else. other than consistency for people that. are thinking about their sonic signature. and their content in their podcast in. their brand videos whatever is the is. there anything else other than just.

making sure people hear it a lot. yeah so well if you're going to hear it. a lot it has to be not irritating as. well and there's there have been some. pretty irritating Sonic logos but I mean. if you think back we talked a moment ago. about the history of advertising and. sound through advertising I can remember. from my childhood so this is addressed. to your older listeners uh things like. the fairy liquid jingle you know four. hands that do dishes those kind of. things that was from 1965 or something. and I still remember it right now so. there there are things that can be.

enormously iconic and Powerful uh from. the the the Tony the Tiger there great. those kind of things which last for. years and years and years there's been. at least five Tonys saying that it's. gone on so long they've kind of all died. off and been replaced. um is there an emotion to even though. it's a jingle we talked about earlier. how storytelling implants it into your. brain in a way that information can't is. there a certain emotion to the sound or. the jingle that is important big time.

because sound effects has four ways and. this is a conversation which is really. interesting to me I mean it was my first. Ted Talk it's not the most watched of of. the TED talks and it's something which. is. um the reaction I get from people is is. often the same it's well that's. absolutely obvious but I never thought. of it I've never been conscious of it. you know we're very very ocular in the. Western World particularly and we're. very oriented around the eyes there are. loads of Design Awards in the world.

they're all for how things look. there's no Design Awards for how things. sound it's it's bizarre architects. are all about how things look very often. and they design things that sound awful. and aren't fit for purpose because they. look great and that's all they care. about. so. it is very important to become sensitive. sound changes your body. physically so for example I could. entrain your heartbeat if you go if I. drop you in a nightclub with pounding. dance music at 140 beats a minute your. heart rate will immediately increase or.

if there's a sudden sound. you got me yeah so your heart rate just. jumped because you had a shot of. cortisol your fight flight hormone and. noradrenaline and that gets you ready to. fight or flee so your heart rate your. breathing your hormone secretions your. brain waves they all get changed by. sound. that's the first way sound changes your. feelings think of music it's the most. obvious example but for me you know my. favorite sound in the world is the sound. of rain on leaves outside the window.

Summer Rain on leaves outside the window. well that's enormously calming to me. other people it might be gentle surf or. something like that so sound can affect. our feelings bird song makes people feel. secure. because the birds have been here far. longer than we have and we've learned. over hundreds of thousands of years so. when the birds are happily tweeting. things are safe we're okay. if they suddenly stop you need to be. worried because Birds stop it there's a. big Predator like a lion okay.

then the Third Way sound effects is how. well you can think cognitively you know. we are all completely used to the the. would you be quite I'm trying to think. here especially people's conversations. the most damaging sound of all it's. really difficult to think which is why. we are one-third as productive in open. plan offices as we are in quiet working. spaces one-third. if we're trying to do knowledge working. you know manipulate. words or numbers in our head and write.

for example so I have friends at the BBC. you know the BBC have gutted that entire. building in Portland Place and it's now. got a basement where they all sit. writing with it four floors of space. above them. and it drives them nuts if you're a. journalist trying to write a story and. you're finding on a deadline and you've. got people around you talking it is. really difficult to concentrate. so that's uh in terms of cognition how. well we can think is affected by noise.

around us or sound around us. um. and finally sound changes our Behavior. it changes what you do and what I do. every day. there's a brilliant study actually which. was done some Years Ago by some. academics they had a supermarket with. two Gondola ends French wine on one. German wine on the other one visually. identical and all they did was to. alternate the music so day one you had a. bit of French or accordion music day two. you had a bit of German kind of umpire. music and they kept doing that for an.

extended period of time. on the French music days French wine. outsold German wine by five bottles to. one which may not be surprising it does. sell more in the world so okay we might. expect that but. on the German music days German wine. outsold French wine by three bottles to. one. now that is a massive shift in behavior. and that's not people coming in going ah. German music therefore I shall buy a. bottle of German wine they were they.

weren't even aware of the music most of. the people who were surveyed they hadn't. noticed so this is unconscious response. to a sound situation that's how much. sound is changing our behavior all the. time and so part of my message part of. my my whole thrust and the difference I. want to make in the world is to get. people listening consciously. so that we start to become aware of the. ways in which sound is changing our. bodies Our emotions our thinking and our. Behavior so we can start to take.

responsibility for the sound we consume. and possibly even more importantly. responsibility for the sound we make. with our voice. and you know also willy-nilly inflicting. sound on other people possibly unkindly. uh which very often happens also. everyone listening to this podcast you. know and I even imagine the title that. will work best when we do our a b tests. will be about how to be a great speaker. we've talked about why that is why we. all want to be heard more it gives us a. sense of significance helps us to feel.

valued which makes us part of the tribe. and all of these things but you as as we. said at this very start of this. conversation you really are leading a a. crusade to get people to listen more why. should that be the title of the podcast. why is that potentially even more. important. um to the world and if we all started to. listen a bit more why would the world be. such a better place personally and. globally because I think with conscious. listening the result is always. understanding. and that's what we need.

understanding in the world de phrase. conflict it means that people can. co-exist side by side with people with. whom they disagree and we've seen the. way that's not happening in the. polarization of politics for example in. America where it becomes. a hated thing for somebody to disagree. with your views uh you know that we're. seeing such polarization in so many. countries now and that's all about this. thing of being right and not listening. to other people not not trying to learn.

anything but becoming more and more. entrenched in a set of opinions which. you know they may be useful to you but. is that true is that universally true. would you Brook any kind of. antithesis to that any kind of counter. view any competing solutions to the. world how can you grow if you are stuck. in a bunker. and you're listening through a tiny.

little slit of an entrenched listening. position that I'm writing everybody else. is wrong certainly on this issue. so to me a passion for listening is. about coexisting with people. I don't agree with I may not like but. they have a right to be here and they. have a reason there's usually a good. reason for what people think or what. people do often. and you know I'm not saying. pity the mass murderer and so forth.

necessarily you know there'll be. possibly reasons for that as well we. certainly need to understand them to. stop it ever happening again. so listening even to people like that I. think there's things to learn I mean how. could you ever become like that and why. would you ever behave like that. so if we just dismiss people that we. don't approve of or people we don't like. then. we don't learn very much at all so I. think listening is you know I said this. I did a tedx talk in Athens the Cradle. of democracy and I went on stage and.

said listening is the sound of democracy. because without it it's very hard if I'm. the minority. it's very hard to accept the majority. view isn't it you're all wrong and I'm. gonna fight well that is just a recipe. for recipe for Anarchy conflict War as. we've seen. whereas if I can say okay I can. understand why you all think that I'll. try and change your opinion but you know. I'm not de-personalizing you I'm.

understanding that you're human beings. you have a different view from me and I. can see why you got to that view. then I can grow you can grow we can. possibly come to some sort of synthesis. thinking a lot about modern listening. there and the tools we have to listen to. each other one of them being social. media yeah one of the things that's so. tempting to do for all of us which I've. refrained about two years ago I made a. very conscious decision to. to do this but I used to just unfollow. people that. I didn't like what they said so like I I. wouldn't follow Trump for example or. like Nigel farage or like people that I.

thought were just idiots who had. ulterior motives whatever I would just. unfollow them and what I'm the problem. with that approach is I was as I saw. other Echo Chambers emerging online is. that I wasn't progressing in any way I. was as you've said it like I was. increasing the size of my information my. exposure therefore my ability to have. empathy or to understand people out that. didn't think like me so I did a I. started following people who were who I. who made me feel uncomfortable it's the. best way to describe it yeah well.

uncomfortable is a call for reassessment. isn't it yeah and that's really. important but I do think social media. has got a lot to answer for in the way. that it's been abused by people. um with trolling and particularly with. shaming there's a brilliant talk by um. John Ronson who's who's become a friend. of mine over the years on social media. shaming and if anybody hasn't seen that. I do recommend you watch it because it. is truly chilling to recount how a mob. can beat somebody out of their job for.

what was originally quite an innocent. post. so we now see this you know we see slurs. being um unacceptable words being. labeled on top of people uh who find it. difficult to defend themselves whether. we're talking about racist or we're. talking about homophobe you know at the. moment that person is labeled with that. thing it's very hard to get the stain. off isn't it and then you get a mob who. go on and start castigating the person. without ever understanding what caused.

this in the first place. so I think we've got to be very careful. about the way these things are used and. without listening to the person and what. their views really are. it's all too easy to get into a kind of. knee-jerk mob Lynch Mob kind of. mentality where we're being right it. comes back to that again doesn't it and. that person is wrong and must be. punished or shamed or canceled or. whatever it may be so I think listening. is really important and as you say to.

people who make us feel uncomfortable. well that's a warning sign that perhaps. we need to reassess or analyze or what. is going on here why is this making me. feel uncomfortable is it actually. against my views or my values or is it. against my social conditioning and would. my friends disapprove of me if I thought. that that kind of thing I'd love to live. in a world where we um we all including. myself we're much better at listening. and also accepting ideas that made us. feel uncomfortable that's in part what I. think we're trying to do here is to have.

conversations to see ideas Collide that. help to move the the world forward. um. and I only started thinking about that. the other day when we had a guest on. called Africa Brook that maybe that's. ultimately the the net benefit of this. is just Fearless conversations in a. medium where no one's going to be edited. or or cut down and manipulated that will. hopefully push the conversation forward. and I'm not right and my guests are. sometimes it's just all opinion. um we do have a closing tradition on. this podcast where the previous guest. asks a question for the next guest they.

write it in the book. Jack gets to see it I don't get to see. it. um until now so give me a second to read. it they don't know who they're writing. it for. and you will also be asked to do the. same I have been dreading this moment. really why it's so funny that everyone. gets really nervous now yeah and I'll. just say you know everyone takes a long. time to answer but then they also take. an even longer amount of time to think. of a question to write okay. okay. this person wrote see they've really. given themselves away but.

I have played sport for a living. I've presented I've done acting. and I've sang songs. but I would still love to do one more. thing with my life. what's your one more thing. I think for me. um I've resisted doing a lot of. um.

things that I know intellectually are. really really good for me. so I can probably crystallize that we. haven't in Scotland where I live we have. a thing called Monroe's. these are a set of Peaks. I think they're over. 3000 feet or something like that I can't. remember how big they are but they're. you know it's sizeable and. um. I saw an amazing story the other day. about an 83 year old man I think who has.

just completed climbing all of the. monroes there are a lot of monroes. you're talking about more than a hundred. and he's just completed that I mean. these are serious. uh schleps you know and at his age he's. just completed it was a wonderful. picture of all his friends with walking. sticks forming a kind of. um Corridor for him to walk through on. his final complete. um. I would love to take on doing at least.

one Monroe a year. as a walk Jen and I have just got into. serious walking where we live in orkney. and we did Eight Mile Walk the other day. and I was virtually crippled the. following day I couldn't move so I'd. love to get to the stage where I get my. body used to that kind of thing it is so. beautiful to be out in the fresh air to. be in beautiful scenery to be exercising. my body in that way to be losing weight. to be becoming fitter I mean it's just. nothing but good from the whole thing.

and taking it on to do it up on Monroe. that would be a serious challenge for me. so one a year for the rest of my life. would be fantastic. amazing and I'm gonna find out if that. happens so me and Jane are gonna stay in. touch fair enough. um and maybe I'll come do a couple of. the monroes with you because I've got. increasingly um interested in like. hiking we'd love it lately so do invite. me if you do end up doing it but um. definitely thank you so much for your. time today thank you Stephen you've. given me so much from through your.

content and the videos and especially. the TED Talks you've made me it's one of. those conversations that we've had today. but also from watching your videos where. I start to reassess all of the as I. describe it like the unthinking I've. done with sound I just haven't thought. about it enough and it through this. conversation I even thought about our. little jingle at the start of the Diary. of a CEO which we've always had since. episode one and to be honest I've never. really thought about it it's just been. there and it's and that kind of. reassessment because I completely agree. with everything you've said about the. importance of sound but if I agree then. why aren't my actions.

and my why isn't it such a high priority. in the way that I'm thinking and. designing the things that I create so. yeah. and also everything you've said about. conflict resolution and relationships. and the importance of that sound plays. there it's such an important. conversation one that I hope we can. continue long after this podcast but I. just wanted to say thank you for your. time today thank you for listening. that's a yeah it's a lovely way to end. thank you for speaking and thank you for. listening it means the world to me thank. you thank you Stephen. I had a few words to say about one of my. sponsors on this podcast my girlfriend.

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