The Secret To Loving Your Work with Bruce Daisley | E66

you were the vp of twitter. obviously donald trump has just been. booted off twitter permanently what do. you think about that. there's a 70 year long study out of yale. university looking at what. the the secret of longevity and. happiness is and the secret of longevity. and happiness. is. work the thing we spend the majority of. our lives doing. today's guest is an expert on exactly.

that. how can you be an expert on work bruce. daisley spent the last. five to ten years studying what makes. work. joyous what makes it miserable how we. get burnt out. and what matters the most when it comes. to work he's been named one of the most. influential londoners in the uk has been. named as one of the most influential. britons. in the united kingdom bruce daisley's. book the joy of work became the best. selling business hardback book in 2019. he has his own podcast so he's one hell. of a talker as well.

and as the world has transitioned over. the last 10 months to this zoom-centric. remote working lifestyle. i think now is a great time to ask. ourselves the question. what makes work enjoyable how can we get. the most out of work how do we avoid. burnout. and how do we maximize our motivation. bruce has the answers. so without further ado my name is. stephen butler and this is the director. ceo. i hope nobody's listening but if you are. then please keep this to yourself.

bruce you were you wrote a i feel like. that's an understatement you wrote a. smash hit book about. work called the joy of work and i've. seen this book absolutely everywhere. it's been an absolute phenomenon. so you know considering the fact that. the world has fundamentally shifted over. the last. nine ten months because of this pandemic. and the way we work has changed so much. i wanted to get your view of this remote. working. zoom um sort of working culture that has.

now. been forced upon us just before i let. you answer i'm gonna give a little. sentence around around my take on it. i hate it um and. when when in march when we were forced. out as a ceo for business to tell my. employees that we're gonna be working. from home. and we have this amazing office which. gives us all this community um. i know that about 50 of my workforce. liked the idea. but i 100 hate it for a number of. reasons what's your take. so i think at the outset i shared some. of your reservations.

brony brown talks about this thing which. is collective effervescence. and it's a it's a good way she's she's. coined to turn for something you see. quite a lot in social science. that even the introverts amongst us. actually quite like being around people. in. in some scenarios and we get. far more of our energy from the tribe. were in and the people were surrounded. with. then would probably admit and so when it. first happened. look the defining thing about work for. me is laughing every day. i if i laugh every day and i you know in.

the organizations i've been in. they've been at times incredibly. stressful we've had. you know at times when i was at twitter. there was just for. good reason there was like big headlines. demanding stressful scenarios. but either the sort of the dark humor. that you find in those moments. or the moments of levity that you can. just get if you're around people that. you trust. soldiers talk about this or firefighters. talk about this you know you can find. human. and i used to love that so the idea of. shifting to a world where.

somehow we're plugging into the matrix. and we were losing. that camaraderie that kinship that we. get. from being around other people i wasn't. necessarily the. the biggest advocate of it i think. what's clear though. is that we've fundamentally moved into a. different world and some of those. preconceptions that we might have had. might have been partly ill-judged so so. so working through those things that. the number one thing we know uh 91 of.

people say they want to continue working. in some capacity. when you look at the numbers of that. people say broadly say they want to work. at home. three or four days a week so there's. some firms saying. we're going to let people work one day a. week or two days a week at home. people workers want to work more than. that so. there's going to be some degree of of. balance and we're going to achieve an. equilibrium. so that's the demand side of it and in. fact when you look at all age groups. young or old there is a slight. difference so.

younger workers have said that they were. they're happy at home but they they it's. close to how happy they were in the. office. and we can partly understand that a lot. of young workers don't have. home offices they don't have nice desks. they're. sitting on their bed or they're sitting. on the table that. sits at the end of their bed so they're. working in slightly different scenarios. but even they report they're more. productive and happier than. than that they were in a big open plan. office so.

that's the first thing older workers are. significantly happier. if you've got a bit of space it seems to. correlate with you feeling really happy. so broadly all of the evidence suggests. actually. the experience of it has been at least. unbalanced positive so then you look at. the. the other side and i guess it's firms. and it's really growing evidence that. firms are recognizing that. something has fundamentally changed. bloomberg did something interesting the. business people. they did an analysis of all the earnings. calls so all these transcripts of like.

big bosses reporting to shareholders. what they think is going to happen and. bloomberg say that. already about one in eight firms are. talking about making their. offices smaller the ft did something. where they said about half of british. firms. are already talking about their offices. being smaller so. whether it's that demand side or whether. it's that supply side almost certainly. we're going into something that's going. to. look and feel a bit different to what we. were used to before. if you had to guess um i i completely.

resonate with that i think. even for our organization we realized. how much money i'll be honest how much. money we could save. by not having an office because it's not. just the rent it's the. the cleaning the electricity it's the. food in the cupboards. you know the maintenance of a what was a. 20 000 square foot office in manchester. uh and you you stripped back those costs. and you know it was that you were forced. to realize that. it is possible for there to be another. way and i think at first we were. we were skeptical that our business. could run in.

completely remotely then we realized it. could and then we moved into phase three. which was like. okay but what have we lost now and it. was it was it was definitely a phase. three thing because in phase two we're. like oh everything's fine. in phase three we're like now we've got. a problem because we've lost the. uh the sense of community that our. company was giving to our employees and. for a company like ours. community was a huge part of our our. value-add you know we are the sterile. stereotypical like millennial office. with like the slides and the ballpark.

and the freedom. and um and a real sense of strong. community where pretty much everyone. lives together. and so in phase three of this sort of. this sort of mental journey. what we saw and i actually resigned just. after in about. september time what we saw was a bit of. an exodus of our employees because now. they're sad at home they're looking at. their to-do lists. and that they're now thinking the. remuneration or the value i'm getting. from this job. is this amount of money and i'm doing.

these set of tasks so now i think i can. get more. money down the street at that place that. has no working culture. whilst i'm still going to be sad at home. and it will be a similar set of tasks. and it was it was astonishing it was. astonishing how many people. um are being completely honest because i. have no reason not to be honest we. almost never lost. good people the month just before and. after i left. we we lost our the largest number of. employees. we've ever lost by a fault factor of 10.

yeah. and it's fascinating so let's look into. that because you're exactly. you spot on these the big themes that. are emerging now firstly. how can you make people feel like the. part of something when. the old way they felt part of something. was the energy they had when they're. around people right you know. there is some buzz and and it's not an. exaggeration i've chatted to. some of the world's leading experts and. they say good workplaces do have a buzz. to them they have. almost like this tangible energy um and. i think. that's one of the challenges we've got. now if you've got a situation where.

people on video calls back to back. and you know it might be not with the. big boss it might be with clients. they're dealing with or it might be. with customers they've got to keep happy. but if there aren't back-to-back. meetings with those people. then they can just feel well look that's. going to be exactly the same wherever i. go we're not going to have. the same energy and there's far more. evidence that. when people feel part of something. bigger than themselves. it's transformational so i've been i'm. writing something about resilience at. the moment a book about resilience.

and what you discover is that actually. what you hear about resilience is that. people. tell you all these myths about. resilience that it's this individual. strength or it's this. it's this trait that we can do develop. and what you discover about resilience. is it's normally a collective thing it's. because you. feel part of a resilient community you. feel like you've got. the strength of others to draw upon you. feel like you can. tap into something one person in some of. the research i was reading. said you can't be a resilient on your. own and there's so much truth in that.

now what does that mean for the way. we're working right now well if you've. got someone in. a bed seat or a studio flat or a flat. chair. and they're sitting on their own all day. and they feel lonely. it's almost certain that those reserves. of resilience are being. tapped and you know there's one thing. that psychologists. talk about all the time it's this notion. of of affect. it's sort of it's a fancy way of saying. mood it's a psychologist a way of saying. mood. and what you discover about affect is.

that. the the mood we're in is really. influential on a lot of the things on. our experience of life. and the uh creativity and our sense of. collaboration. so scientists talk about positive affect. and negative affect. and positive affect best way i can sort. of frame. uh positive affect it it suggests that. like the mood we're in. transforms some of the decisions we make. and the best way i can frame that is. that. when you're a kid growing up whether. your main carer is a grandparent or a. parent or a. a guardian but you knew from the age of.

four or five. you knew that it was a good time to ask. for something and a bad time to ask for. something. you knew based on the mood that your. carer was in that there was a good time. to ask for something a bad time but. affect the mood we're in affects uh. decisions. well the situation we're all going. through right now is not positive affect. it's a negative affect. loads of people are feeling burnt out. average person during lockdown has been. working about an extra 45 minutes a day. that's on the back of the average. working day has gone up by two hours in.

the last 10 years. so people are finding themselves in this. lonely unaffiliated disconnected. sense of exhaustive burnout so it's no. wonder people are quitting their jobs. because they just don't feel like the. good version of them that they used to. feel like you know the contrast as well. so this idea of contrast where you can. remember how your job used to be. and if your job used to be a 10 and now. because it's because a central part of. what made it a 10 say the community or. the culture in the office or you know.

that sense of camaraderie. or that sense that you know you were a. group of people working together towards. a goal now you're kind of. sat in your bedside on your own on the. end of your bed doing a to-do list um. if your company was a 10 because of that. culture and it's now dropped down to a. six. something in my mind makes me think that. those companies will actually hurt more. versus the companies that were like an. eight before and an hour a six. um and that's part of what i think with. with our company social chain because. culture was such. a big thing that people must be thinking. oh my god what the hell is this.

um being sat alone and we try i think. you know i can't speak to the company. now because i'm no longer there but. i know there was ample efforts with all. as with all companies to do these like. zoom bingo things and that lasted a. month before everyone got. sick to death of that but you mentioned. the word burn out there. uh a very popular phrase a topic of. much mystique as well i think um i saw. your ted talk about the topic of burnout. and i saw your. your thoughts there i guess my my. question is what causes burnout. in your view yeah there was a really. interesting there was a.

a really interesting book that just came. out last year and it was based on. a a successful article that had sort of. blown up on. buzzfeed by a woman called an helen. peterson and she talked about. she the premise of her article really. good article worth searching for. is the the millennials of the burnout. generation you remember that one i think. maybe you showed it right there's all. these matchy. matches and what she said is she said. and she'd encountered it as a journalist. she's thinking. i'm feeling something i wonder if i. could capture it and she was thinking.

is there such thing as errand paralysis. so what. she means by that is that she was. getting to the end of like these. productive working days. and then she would get back to her flat. and she would she would open a bill. or she had she had something she needed. to do and she just. didn't have the energy this high. performing. really successful person didn't have the. energy to get those things done. and so she was thinking in her head is. this some sort of weird. um this sort of duality that you can be. really accomplished.

at one set of things but you can't. others she started looking into it and. she realized. it's not that you're avoiding one thing. you're just exhausted. and her lesson was that any time we. teach. we treat our energy as infinite that's. when burn out comes. and it we so often do it we we treat the. idea that we can work. all the time and the best examples i can. give you are the ones where. we actually check in on ourselves so i i. used to find myself. day job working at twitter worked on. twitter for eight years i used to.

uh when i was especially guilty of this. i used to have back-to-back meetings on. monday. what's the consequence of back-to-back. meetings your inbox is. is exploding it's it's absolutely. overloaded. and so i used to get home on a monday. night get myself a cup of tea. deal with all my domestic. responsibilities and i would sit there. and work and do emails for about. four hours and just try and catch up. with what i was doing. and i quite often i would check myself. and about nine o'clock. i'd be spending as much time changing. the music as i would doing emails.

or one long email that's like a. two-pager who sends these emails these. criminals sending long emails but i'd. find myself reading this. you know that feeling where you read it. i'll just read that again. and then read it again and what you. discovered there's this science for this. it's called ego depletion. and the people who look into this say. that our brains are sort of. far more finite far more limited than we. might imagine our brains are far closer. if you want a metaphor for it our brains. are far closer to the batteries on our.

phone. than the infinite broadband that we we. normally deal with. so your brain's sort of got a certain. amount of charge in it and when you use. it. and so the way you'll you'll witness. this is maybe you walk into. a situation and someone asks you a. question at the end of a long day or. whatever. and you're like hang on can you just. just give me a minute just give me a. minute or someone asks you something. really complicated just as you're about. to oh. okay hang on can we just give and. effectively our brains are sort of far. more finite. once you recognize that you start.

thinking okay i wonder if that. should influence the way i think about. doing my job and. and of course burnout is one of the. things where we don't. treat our energy as finite it is. it is uh finite but we don't treat it. like that and the end result is then. we just feel like we're running on empty. we're running on vapors. and so when you look into it the world. health organization. uh recognize burnout as a real. phenomenon. and they say that burnout is is all. about.

when our energy feels spent when we feel. emotionally exhausted. they talk about this other thing called. depersonalization where. when you're really burnt out you don't. necessarily. construe other people as full and. empathetic individuals but sometimes. you're a bit sort of. dismissive of other people or you're a. bit reductive of their motives or. you start seeing people around you as an. annoyance so in the old days if you ever. found that the person you sat next to. their chewing or their tapping was.

driving you crazy that can be a little. bit of an exam. example of deep personalization so it's. a real phenomenon. it's uh i think to my mind it makes you. rethink. the way you work so if you knew okay the. most i can do every day. is eight productive hours of work and. you can. you know there are evidence to suggest. you can do more than that but if you. started treating it like that. and said maybe actually if i'm honest. it's not a. really high intensity productive hours.

but maybe it's five or six really good. hours. and then you know other stuff is dealing. with email or dealing with. with phone calls it i suspect it would. change the way you made decisions. and you see evidence of this barack. obama used to have someone who followed. him round. who uh barack obama never chose his. lunch in eight years. because this person just made all his. decisions for him and. you see albert einstein said something. similar einstein used to wear that same. outfit every day. and uh it was because he knew when he.

got to his lab when he got to. the the place he was making uh decisions. he knew that if he went there and he. hadn't. cluttered his brain with all these. little micro decisions. he was he just felt a bit more. imaginative inventive creative. so we see evidence of it in other. people's behavior but normally when it. comes to us we don't treat. our brains like that we don't treat it. like something we need to protect. our energy to protect we we tend to. treat our energy as infinite but that's. why burnout comes just.

does the type of work you know you talk. there about eight hours or five hours or. whatever it might be. does the type of work you're doing and. the amount of intrinsic. motivation you have or joy you get from. it impact your. likelihood of being burnt out yeah. because like because that's what i. that's what i suspected in my life. because. the people that i've seen that get burnt. out and this is all anecdotal and. there's no scientific evidence really to. support. these these assertions but people that. i've seen get burnt out the most. typically typically especially during.

the lockdown. working alone often often freelance um. often doing a repetitive task. usually doing things that aren't that. enjoyable and i had a friend actually. come here and sit on the sofa which i've. talked about i think in the last few. podcasts. and he basically told me that he was. feeling a bit burnt out um and. uh he was struggling to get out of bed. and go and do the. go and do his work in the morning he's a. he's a freelance freelancer. working on his own in his house he used. to work within teams during pre. pandemic and i i was saying to him like. think about the things that make your.

work enjoyable and what other you know. what are the things about work that are. intrinsically and. motivating to you all those things have. gone right now so now you're just left. with. waking up alone sitting in front of a. computer. and maybe because your intrinsic. motivations or the intrinsic joy. of your work has been stripped maybe. you're now um. encountering burnout i think that. resonates with me as well to some degree. like. if i've ever got close to feeling. unmotivated or quote unquote. burnt out it was when i was doing things. alone pre-social chain.

on my own just for money well there's a. couple of things there. so two things so like this i think is. all related to resilience. so there's two things there the first. thing is that the evidence we have. is that when we feel an absence of. control we do. we generally feel more burnt out so. let's think of examples and the research. on this some of the best research on. this is about nurses. so very timely for the moment we're in. right now when nurses. choose to work extra hours or you might. have known friends when you were doing. jobs before your career where you know i.

used to work in fast food and some of. those dudes used to work 14 hour shifts. and you're like wow where did they get. the energy but they were electing to do. it. and the evidence we have is that when. people choose to do those things. it often impacts them less they they. feel like they've got control over it. so you know i these guys who used to. work with burger king king. at me with me and they were doing 100. hour weeks but because they were. choosing to do it because it was really. important for them to afford a car to do. things. they were what you discover is that when.

you're electing to do it does. seem to give you some degree of. protection so control is a really. important part the more control. we feel over our lives so why might you. now be feeling burnt out because imagine. if your company has you on. 40 hours of zoom calls a week or your. inbox is always. full or you've got a difficult person. you have to deal with a. client relationship who's phoning you. all the time you might be feeling the. absence of control. or your your friend who's the the. freelancer might be feeling like i'm. just.

i'm not in control of things but there's. a couple of other really important parts. and they're about our identity and about. the the sense of community. and you get really good evidence of how. when we feel part of something bigger. than us and. feeling that connection being around. people is a really important part of. that. it tends to enrich us it tends to to. protect us and you see really good. evidence of this you see when people go. to hospital. if they have like a heart operation or. they have something serious when they.

come out of hospital. the people who reported that they were. part of groups before. their chance of survival their chance of. avoiding depression. is massively higher than those who. live in isolation and look that's the. experiment we're going through right now. that. you might have wonderful friends that. are at the end of a zoom line or a. messenger link or a whatsapp. but if you're not around them and to. some extent some of the energy we get. from them is dissipating. and i think that's the challenge that a. lot of us are in right now.

it's just a very lonely existence we've. got now all of the things that we found. nourishing enriching life-affirming a. lot of them have been taken away from us. now the challenge go on i was just gonna. say i was gonna say um. actually there's a lady that sat in your. in your chair yesterday. anna hemmings and she's an 11 time or. 11 time world gold medal world champion. amazing olympian etc etc and she was. speaking to the fact that at one point. in her career. when she's when she she was training in.

london to be a kayaker so she's like an. eleven-time world champion kayaker. right and then at one point in her. career they decided that they wanted her. to go to the olympics so she had to. learn sprint kayaking right. the coach was in florida so they took. her away from her team. in london and she had to basically train. on her own. via using an email that her her coach in. florida was selling her. and after doing that for a couple of. months she got chronic fatigue syndrome. wow. so she was out for two years she said. she couldn't lift her hands. and shampoo her and the thing that.

brought her back was the realization. that taking away. her from her team as someone who was a. bit of an extrovert and got her energy. from people. had um set off a bunch of alarm bells in. her body. so the the reason that she managed to. recover and come back and. win more world titles after two years of. literally having this chronic fatigue. syndrome. was by realizing that and putting her. back with her teams. and changing her training which is wow. what a metaphor for what we're going. through. right and it shows how the mind is so. intrinsically connected to the body yeah. people don't think that.

loneliness or removing you from your. tribe. can disable your body yeah or your. energy but although there's remarkable. amounts of evidence on that so there's a. woman in the u.s called. julianne holt lunchtime who's done like. a colossal survey. and she appropriates she says loneliness. is the equivalent of smoking 15. cigarettes a day. and so you know it has this big impact. on us and loneliness is. as bigger than obesity in terms of the. health impact it has on you.

and that's what we're going through. right now and for all of these things. that we've tried to sort of create these. artificial intel alternatives. zoom quizzes and all manner and things. like that they just don't. have the same connection of. feeling surrounded with someone there's. some evidence as soon as you start. looking into these things it's. extraordinary. what an impact people have on each other. so these one. piece of evidence i went up to to oxford. to meet the woman who did this. research and she took groups of rowers.

similar to. to the kayaker took groups of roads. first and there are oxford university. roads you've seen them the colossal. the monsters and she she put the first. group individually on rowing machines. second group she said okay i want you to. be on a. a made-up boat you know you're going to. sit on your rowing machines but you've. got to be in stroke with each other. and she wanted to see firstly what was. the different experience. what she noticed was that the firstly. they did about the same. exercise it wasn't like someone worked. harder than others but she measured the.

endorphin levels. you do that by uh you put these arm. cuffs on people you sort of. you subject them to pain and then you. see how much pain they can take and. the endorphin levels of the people who'd. rode together was twice as high. as the people who'd rode alone and you. know you see this with choirs. people who sing inquired you know you. can grab strangers off the street. get them to sing some abba songs. together and you say to them at the end. of it. how do you feel they say i feel utterly. elated now that's not because singing. our songs on its own does it it's.

because when you feel some connection. with other people. even strangers it seems to be. transformational it seems to sort of. elevate our mood and all of that has. been stripped from us. so you know if you've got i guess you. can try to do some approximations of it. but all of that has been stripped from. us and i think that's why. it's it's inevitable that we are feeling. flat energy-less we it doesn't feel the. same right now how do we fix that though. and this is i think it's going back to. the start of the conversation.

why i hate it i hate the lack of. connection i hate the lack of community. i think are you an extrovert would you. say. oh god i really don't know i think on. one hand i'm a massive introvert yeah. i i i'm people know me i don't like to. do i don't like small talk i like to sit. alone for weeks on end. i like i went off to the jungle for four. weeks in september alone. went off to the costa rican jungle alone. so i like that although i. have this kind of like you know public. speaking and social media brand. so i actually don't know although a lot. of introverts like that ability to. switch on the public speaking side and.

but i think actually the more you look. into the introvert extrovert thing it's. sort of. a compartmentalization that doesn't. necess the vast majority of people sit. somewhere and sure. exactly i'm the same as you um no but. these. uh i i think look the point you raise is. there's no easy substitute. but there is some evidence i saw an. amazing piece of research. and it looked at couples who lived. distance relationships. so you know in the uk distance. relationship means you're half an hour. an hour's drive from someone. in the us it means you're like a three.

hour flight so they did a piece of. research 40. 000 couples living distant relationships. and they wanted to know so these were. unmarried so they wanted to know the. ones who made it through a year what. what was the thing that made it through. a year and this was research was done. three or four years ago so it's not from. a different era of technology. but the ones who stayed with each other. for the long term. phoned each other every day and you know. when they. they were asked what you talked about. they said oh we just talked about. trivial things. so i think so many of us have got into.

this frame of mind of thinking. well i liked her a photo and i sent a. quick whatsapp saying what i sent. a voice note horrific use of technology. but they said. but you know we think somehow we've. serviced the relationship by doing these. things. and actually when you come down to it. and maybe future generations will be. different. but it's it's often quite analog it's. that sense of feeling. seen and appreciated so i suspect face. time might work the same way. but so many of us are sort of are.

overwhelmed with these performative zoom. calls right now where he's sitting there. with. like a celebrity squares a blanky blank. uh. array of faces in front of you i know. and i wonder if it's that sense of being. seen and being heard. that probably connects and cuts through. a bit more. yeah i think so yeah i just think work. is just so much. more than the work right i think. especially in the world in. the world we live in at the moment where. we're getting lonelier as a society i. was looking at the stats when i was. writing my book about. you know the the when they ask americans.

for example how many people. they can turn to at a time of crisis it. used to be three people a couple of. decades ago now they're like medium. answer is zero. yeah and um i think it was theresa may. that appointed a. head of loneliness where loneliness are. for the uk and i've seen the stats so i. think work is one of the few sort of. i don't know institutions where it still. binds us together. um and we're not between four white. walls tapping glass to order food and. alone speaking to our nan through a. piece of glass so it's a shame that that. that community that part of community's.

gone but anyway moving on. creativity something you've talked about. at length and. um for me i've i've always believed that. i'm least creative in the office i've. always thought. i'm more creative in the gym and in the. shower than i am when i'm when i'm sat. in a boardroom with a bunch of people. and i know this is something you've. spoken about so i wanted to get your. take on where we're most creative what. kills and causes creativity. yeah i mean look firstly i would all i. ever feel in all of these situations is. that i feel like i'm a. a vessel that's passing on other.

people's knowledge so i've found myself. being consumed with all these things and. interested in their learning so. look let me tell you um what i've i've. discovered that. neuroscience is really intriguing the. most compelling thing about neuroscience. is when you look into it. uh neuroscientists used to work on. experimenting on animals. you know i'm not i'm not keen on that i. was like i was. you know in a protest group about animal. experimentation when i was younger. um and they used to look at brain. injuries so that used to be the main way.

that neuroscience worked. and it's only the last 20 years that. brain scans have had any degree of. sophistication. but what they've discovered in like the. time that they've had brain scanners. is some of the things that they presumed. about the way our brain works. aren't necessarily right so let me give. you one example but they used to put. people in these brand new brain scanners. and they would watch what their their. brains did they give them a puzzle they. give them a. rubik's cube their brains would light up. in these sort of different places. and then they'd notice what happened. when people stopped. playing on the puzzle and their brains.

would light up in sort of. loads of places as well and so it was it. was baffling. what's going on right now they'd say to. these people they say oh right sorry i. was. a million miles away i was daydreaming. so okay. right that's interesting your brain's. lightened up when you're when you're not. thinking about something when you sort. of switched off. and so the way that neuroscientists. categorize this broadly they say. these three systems of cognition first. one is like. when you're doing that rubik's cube or. when you're typing an email.

it's called the executive attention. network so it's the main thing you're. focusing on. and then you'll know while your. executive attention network is watching. netflix or. while you're writing an email you can. also be aware of like the room you're in. that's called the salience network and. the third one the third. so there's three of these systems the. third one is that one when you're. daydreaming the one where you're a. million miles away. the one when you're in the shower which. is called the default network. but what we discover is that people. generally report. having their best creative ideas not.

when they're frowning into their laptop. screen. but when they're in these default mode. uh situations so you might have it in. the old days. if you're on a train somewhere or on a. plane somewhere loads of people. i've got a friend who says she has all. her best ideas. staring out the windows of planes yeah. and so you know. if that was you then this year has been. an uncreative year. but um my favorite example of it is a. really famous screenwriter. called aaron sawkin he's written the.

west wing he wrote. there was a um there was a film he had. on netflix just before christmas called. the chicago seven he's written all these. big things. very famous for zingy dialogue so he. wrote the social network film things. like that sort of. you know um really sort of really what's. better than a. million a billion like he's written all. these zingy lines and he's. realized that uh he has all his best. ideas exactly like you in the shower. he said he had he told hollywood. reporter magazine he had a shower. installed in the corner of his office.

and he has eight showers a day and he. was asked by them. he was asked by them hang on is this. like some weird. ocd thing he said not at all i find that. when i. you know so i'll be sitting there. thinking of something. trying to come up with an idea but it's. only when i disengage my brain. to something comes to me an idea comes. to me and so. what you described is exactly what a lot. of. these people whose job is to be creative. have recognized. and as soon as you know that you start. thinking.

wow okay i need to think differently. about. being creative because creativity can. then be when i'm sitting at my desk i'm. sort of. taking all this inspiration in. stimulation. ideas but then it's about disengaging. going for a walk. going for a cycle ride going to to do a. workout. might be the moment where the idea hits. you and i don't think necessarily we. think about that enough. you know if you go back to this idea. that your brain is a bit like your phone.

battery. then some of those moments that. effectively can recharge your battery. can be the moments where creativity hits. you and inspiration hits you. so i think sort of rethinking the way. that we. treat a productive week of work of you. know these blocks of work. but then moments where you know it might. be your. personal is you go for a walk every. lunch time. that can be far more creative and. productive than you might imagine. well how do we make our work. environments more conducive with. creativity then is there a way or do we.

just resign to the fact that. that's not going to be the best place. for our creativity and if we're going to. reach our creative potential it's. probably going to be away from the. office. i think it's about recognizing there's a. yin yang there's a balance. of work and and imagination. so i i always loved the example of um. charles dickens. charles dickens obviously um like. incredibly productive i think he wrote. 15 novels. 200 short stories he edited a weekly.

magazine about a mile from here. you know sort of incredibly productive. we didn't work afternoons. and so charles dickens would sit down at. his desk at eight in the morning. he'd write for about four or five hours. and then he'd go and walk and he'd walk. 10. 10 miles every afternoon and that was. like. him lost in his thoughts you know. striding through. east london probably sort of imagination. popping. when he sat down the next day he had. loads of ideas and i think. some of us have eliminated that.

sort of the brain fermenting ideas we've. eliminated that a bit so. you know it might be that your way to do. this yourself is just. to make sure you just got some down time. or you've just got some time where. you know you put music on but you turn. podcasts off or you just. you try and get a bit more balance in. how you're. uh using your energy so let's conclude. this point about work. and creativity say that i today. made you the ceo of a company that had. 100 employees.

um and you could design from scratch the. the working environment how often people. worked and some of the sort of. key sort of principles and foundations. of that working environment what kind of. things would be important to you based. on all you know. so let's look into what happened in. lockdown the first part of lockdown most. people reported. that their engagement went up and why. did their engagement went up. their engagement went up because they. were solving problems like we'd never. worked like this before. everyone was you know the first moment. you're getting on a zoom call or a.

google hangout or. you're getting on these things there's. like you know even though you're in this. crazy situation. there's a degree of excitement fight or. flight almost right and. and so what do we know about that we. know that people felt that they were. involved in firstly a bit of team. collaboration but secondly they were. helping solve problems. and so you know the whole organizations. computer sales. have gone through the roof whole. organizations that had no laptop. computers. so they had to arm their teams with kit. and so people. felt really engaged by the fact that.

they back to what we talked about. earlier. had some control they had a a bit of. influence. so number one thing that we discover is. the more that people feel that they can. have an. impact in their job and it might be. something similar simple. they're they're just responsible for a. couple of things themselves. the more that they feel that they've got. some agency some control themselves. they feel motivated in their jobs when. do we feel unmotivated in our jobs. when our boss tells us what to do but we.

don't get. any input into it we don't necessarily. think it's. the best thing to do we're doing. repetitive things that don't feel very. rewarding. so the best thing that any of us can do. think well how can i make. teams feel small and teams feel like. they've got a shared sense of. accomplishment and pride in what they're. doing so that's what i would be saying. what you discover is 100 is a really. nice size actually any time a. company goes over 100 what your. discovery is. you lose a bit of some of that.

camaraderie. you better almost there's a few. organizations that do this. when you go over 100 split it into two. teams because your. that sort of cohesion you get works. really well when we. we've got a familiarity with each other. and what happens is when you go over. that you start losing it. and you think we want we want it to feel. like it used to feel. it's never going to feel like that. humans don't work like that so. far better to say you know we've got two. teams that love each other but we're. we're working on separate goals so.

keeping things small. is really critical and there's lots of. evidence of. the smaller you can keep things you. almost get the economies of engagement. compared to the economies of scale that. when people feel they're part of. something that they're having an input. into. their engagement is higher they they. they work more effectively. so i would say that would be the. defining part making people feel like. they've got things that they're. responsible for. and generally all of those things. encourage. active engagement what you find when you.

look into some of the stats. they're terrifying so and when you. globally there's. an organization gallop to this workforce. survey. opinion poll company and they they do. this workforce survey and they say that. globally. 13 of people are engaged in their jobs. when they look into it what i mean by. that is that these there's almost as. many. people there's about 22 of people who. would. actively disengage their jobs so by. actively disengaged. they kind of hate their organization and.

they want to bring the downfall of their. organization. so anytime you meet some someone on the. tuber in the street they're almost twice. as likely to want to destroy their. company. as make it succeed but then the vast. majority of everyone else over 50. percent of people. are just disengaged they're not actively. disengaged. they're just passively disengaged so. work for most of us. is something is something that sort of. feels arduous we don't necessarily enjoy. we don't necessarily. value the decisions and you'll know as.

someone who's. run a company where culture was the. defining thing you'll know that when you. get it right. it can be this superpower where you know. you're on. high octane fuel compared to you know. the energy can feel low otherwise and so. just getting those things right. generally is far more about. people feeling a personal connection. with the people that are around. feeling like they're contributing. something these things play a really big. part. we talked a lot about the joy of work. obviously the i guess the antithesis of.

the joy of work is the misery of work. and at some point when work. feels miserable um people are faced with. this quite. um this quite confounding question which. is. how do i know when to quit and we talk. that we know i think there's so much. written about. how to start and when to start and. starting being the thing but obviously. the thing that comes before starting. usually is knowing the right moment to. quit. people don't quit sometimes and they. spend many decades in a miserable job. and. you know then their fear of quitting. almost becomes stronger because they're.

getting more comfortable and more. entrenched. so i wanted i've not seen you talk about. anything about quitting before but i. just wondered if you had a take on when. the right moment to quit a job was or. i know it's an incredibly personal. nuanced thing but people. i can i was thinking then i was thinking. what are some of the things people. really want to know right now one of. them i'm sure is like i hate my job. i don't have control my boss is an. do i quit i'm gonna tell you a secret. for the past five years while building. social chain into a 700 person. global social media powerhouse i've been.

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made anything at all. go to fiverr.com ceo i'll put the link. in the description. that's fiverr.com ceo. message me the service you want from the. website and every single week i'll. personally. send you the credit to your fiverr. account so that you can get that project. done. thank you to fiverr for the sponsorship. and for supporting entrepreneurs and. freelancers around the world. i'm looking forward to all of your. messages i've been working my way. through these. huel nutrition bars this week um as you. know i love the ready to drink cure.

flavors but. you will have also got these salted. caramel bars. and i'm a big salted caramel nut which. i've been having and if you're if you're. someone that does like to chew. not just drink your food then i really. highly recommend the salted caramel. flavor there's also another flavor. called the raspberry white chocolate. flavor. which i've been very addicted to over. the last couple of weeks but again just. like huel it's nutritionally complete. you get all of your. your proteins you get essential fats you. get it's gluten-free as well. and you get 26 vitamins and minerals. from these bars.

tastes amazing and i'm a big salted. caramel fan give it a go if you do. send me a screenshot on instagram or. twitter or linkedin and let me know what. you think. again as someone that skips meals this. is an absolute lifesaver. i was thinking what are some of the. things people really want to know right. now one of them i'm sure is like. i hate my job i don't have control my. boss is an. do i quit yeah look you know big. questions you probably could tell us. more than that.

um yeah i think you know the uh the. critical thing about that is. is probably checking in with yourself. and asking you know do i feel any sense. of. reward by my from my job obviously it's. not a great time for anyone right now to. be. debating doing something that makes them. economically precarious. that so you don't necessarily want to. risk something that is going to. put you in a difficult situation but i. think you know evaluating our jobs. generally when you look into the. research when you say to people have you.

had a good days. a good day at work it generally comes. down to whether people feel pride in. their organization. and whether they feel like they've made. meaningful progress in something they've. been working on. so meaningful progress actually can be. difficult right now if your job feels. like. you're the expert in emailing and. video calls you sometimes feel like. you've made no progress for weeks you. haven't done. anything for weeks and also if your. organization is struggling. this is a really interesting phenomenon. because some organizations pre-covered.

were in. uh were growing so naturally when you're. an employee in those organizations. you're dragged up with it you're giving. promotions and pay rises and. there's the cash to fund that now. organizations are in decline or a lot of. them are hanging on. and so you're not getting a promotion. your pay's been frozen you might have be. on a pay cut. you might be furloughed and it feels. like suddenly you've gone into decline. in your career because the organization. you're in is. in decline um and i think that also. causes a lot of people to start to think. well.

you know i might my whole life up until. this point has been about. progress and climbing the ladder why am. i going down the ladder yeah. i didn't do anything different or wrong. you know it's a really interesting. philosophical thing about that because. the whole idea of the career. at korea is the invention of the last 40. years you know. uh ancestors uh grandparents our. great-grandparents. never had the idea of a career where i. was going to be. accomplishing something and developing. and changing. you know the job you were going to be. doing next year was the job you were.

doing last year well done. and the job that your kids were going to. do was going to be the job that you did. and the the this idea and it brings with. it a degree of insecurity. this idea that we will be on this. developmental path. is a construct look and it's a construct. that suits the. economic system we live in because it. makes us. all we strive to be accomplishing more. than we did last year and to be earning. more than we did last year. but it's a construct for the last few.

years whether it's the origin of. happiness. i'm not 100 sure if i was going to put. two things alongside some of the things. that you've talked about. that sense of feeling part of something. feeling connected to other people. i think is a more robust route to. happiness than. feeling like i'm on a career trajectory. even though that can the the illusion of. that can be incredibly powerful. it's interesting because you know with. there's this thing called like gold. medal depression where like michael. phelps he. set these set these tarts one thing i. kind of investigated in my book is the.

idea that. we think stability we think chaos we. think we live in chaos. and and in search of stability but the. moment we find stability i.e completed. goals. and um you know roof over our heads and. everything's normal we actually descend. into chaos. so in fact we're meant to keep this is a. philosophical idea i guess but. we're meant to keep our lives in forward. motion in that chaos because. when you look at people that have. achieved all their goals and they have. nothing left to accomplish. they so often fall into some kind of.

depression and lack of purpose and. meaning. i think jordan peterson talks about it i. know benjamin said a lot about it that. you know much of um i was looking at the. stats around. life expectancy in the uk and the us and. over the last two years it's declined. for the first time ever. but and they say when they say why is. that they say because the opioid crisis. and say why is there an. opioid crisis and they say well because. there's a lack of meaning. and so i i began to realize that in my. own life. i think i'm meant to keep myself. my goals way out in front of me almost.

unattainable um. and keep myself striving and i've even. seen it in my person which i've talked. about a little bit on this podcast the. days where. someone came along and said here's 50. million will buy a company or we're. going to go to the stock market you're. going to be a millionaire were the most. confusing days of my life. because i immediately didn't know what. my point was anymore. i wonder what there's something really. fascinating so there's a there's a study. of. olympic medalist a british study really. fascinating piece of work. it's called the great british medalist. study and um it was commissioned by the. british olympic association so they.

wanted to know. what was the what was the creation of a. champion. and they did this fascinating thing they. did they gathered 20. what they called super elite athletes so. these are athletes you'll know them. all of them are household names they. don't name them in the study but it's. people like kelly holmes it's people. like. the big iconic names and uh these were. people that every time they went to. a championship they would win gold or. they would win. they would be right in contention then.

they took a second group and they called. these elite athletes. super elite elite and these were people. who went to championships. but kinda didn't meddle or if they. meddled they meddled third. biggest difference between them these. ones had all received significant. childhood trauma the elite ones the. super early best ones had achieved. significant childhood trauma let's start. counting the cases. so kelly holmes she was bullied at. school she was. the only child of mixed race. ethnicity in her village she said she.

experienced continual racism. tom daley his father died when he was. training. yeah um you know you look at countless. examples of these things the. andy murray was you know greatest. british tennis player maybe. greatest british sports person he was at. the dumb lane shooting the only mass. shooting. in british history so all of these. people have experienced significant. childhood trauma. and what happens is they tend to direct. their energy. based on what we know they direct like. they're fortunate. there was a coincidence that they were.

gifted supreme talent. and what you discover is childhood. trauma normally correlates with. addiction. so if you know if it correlates with. anything it correlates with. obsessive behavior but both of them have. something in common. you're trying to fill that void and so. these people are fortunate that they've. been gifted with this. super elite talent that they can fill. the void with striving for something. and the people who ends up at addicts. with the same challenge don't but. they're still striving to fill that void. and so there is something in you know. it's it's almost inevitable that these.

people who are striving for the elite. uh accomplishment hoping to fill this. this hole that sits inside them of. course when they get there they realize. it was all an illusion it's like a. mirage in the desert but you know there. is something in what you say. i mean i've got i just i mean completely. like i think. when i i sit here and speak to people. that are tremendously successful. and the one thing that i've seen in. common with all of them actually think i. said it to joe wicks when he was sat. here. two weeks ago was they all seemed to. have some real severe childhood trauma. that no one else has experienced.

and even in my i said to joe i said you. know my i've got a friend who's a. billionaire. he's not happy but he has had this deep. obsession since he was a kid because of. some things that happened with his. father and his father making him feel. that he just wasn't enough or he wasn't. adequate enough. which has made him obsessive about. success to the point where it's. unhealthy. um and he's got there now he's a. billionaire but he's not happy at all. he's he's you know he's tremendously. unfulfilled the same with eddie han i. went and eddie holmes on this podcast a.

couple of weeks ago as well. and he he is the most relentlessly. obsessed person i've met. um just non-stop eat to the point where. he'll say to his kids like. he'll he'll tell his wife and kids that. they are second priority to his box to. being a boxing promoter. you ask him where that's come from he. said you know my dad my dad always made. me feel like i wasn't enough. it's really interesting though because. it depends i'm intrigued then. how these people pay it forward because. andre agassi. supreme tennis player great tennis. player married to the greatest the.

up there equal greatest tennis players. for all time uh he's married steffi graf. and um and he says that his dad bullied. him constantly. like his dad was never happy he's the. only place his dad who was. a persian iranian cab driver could. afford to own a tennis court was in las. vegas. so they moved to las vegas and his dad. bullied him into becoming a tennis. player. and andre agassi fantastic autobiography. wrote about how much he hates tennis. hates it with every single bit every. fiber in his body. and he says i will never do to my kids.

what my dad did to me. and so it's like this really interesting. origin of. success is the thing that propels you. this driving force that propels these. people. who just keep going relentlessly is it. something missing rather than something. extra and i think that's the interesting. conundrum. i don't think it's predictable and this. is the thing because i think you think. okay well if someone has trauma. they're going to become successful or. they're going to become an addict. or if someone has a.

upbringing that lacked empathy from. their parents then they'll become an. or a serial killer. but in the case of joe wicks he was he. talked about how he had you know he. looked at. the doors in his house and they all had. fist holes in them his dad was an. addict his mom had these problems and. and he is the single most empathetic. person i've ever met. you know when they announce the third. lockdown he does a livestream crying his. eyes up because not because of him he's. fine he's saying i can i'm feeling the. pain. of people losing their jobs right now. and you think well if your dad was. you know you grew up in a home full of. domestic abuse right and violence.

how can you become the most empathetic. person that i've ever encountered. genuinely genuinely empathetic this guy. like i've never seen. you know um i you know because everyone. says about you know pee with joe. and they all like send him the memes. every time there's a lock down of him. like putting his shoes back on or. whatever but the guy. gets really down really really really. down. because he knows that other people are. hurting never seen anything like it. however here's my question so we talked. about childhoods um. making people very interesting there's.

one guy in particular who is. notoriously had a very um interesting. childhood which made him a certain way. donald trump and his father um. you know the story of donald trump and. his father being you know um. you were the vp of e-m-e-a. of twitter um obviously donald trump has. just been booted off twitter permanently. what do you think about that but also i. wanted to ask you where if you were jack. dorsey in that at that time would you. have made the same decision.

number one it's so incredibly hard and i. think. the i mean i always felt lucky i worked. four years at youtube. before twitter and the time that i. worked at youtube. there was a lot of um mass shootings and. there's always mass shootings in the u.s. but there's a lot of mass shootings and. the phenomenon at the time was that a. lot of the mass shootings. it was being discovered that the people. had youtube channels. and so i remember sitting in a meeting.

with lawyers in the. san bruno headquarters of youtube. watching them. debate what the the right moral thing. to do was in these fascinating to watch. things that were being invented. challenges that no one had conceived of. five years before now you've got these. things and so you're watching all these. things going on. and um and so you know when twitter was. invented when twitter was invented it. was a way. 15 years ago it was a way to text all of. your mates at once.

and so there was a short code and it was. a way it was. it took like your msn messenger status. and it sent it to text messages that was. the idea before everyone had internet. connection on their phone. so that it feels like a different. lifetime now. but just an illustration to be 15 years. on from that. debating whether you d platform the most. powerful most well-known is he the most. famous person in the world maybe the. most famous person in the world to. de-platform that person. is such a journey to be on and i know.

the people. i mean i know jack i know uh the the. other person who made the decision. and i know that they don't make any of. those decisions lightly you know it's. like. it's really uh weighs on them but to my. mind. it was a singular situation where. firstly i saw some people on social. media saying. um saying that this was an illustration. that the employees of tech firms were. woke. and it's just really interesting. equivalents because six people died.

in that event and if you watch back all. the footage. of what led to it then it. it doesn't take a huge leap of logic to. say. i can see why that created that so six. people died and i think. it was at the end of a long period where. increasing numbers. of the tweets by the president and the. people associated. were being labeled with this isn't true. and you you do reach a point where a lot. of critics were saying.

where does your responsibility kick in. here do you have no responsibility for. what your platform is being used for i. think knowing the people concerned. that that was the last thing they wanted. to be to be in the position where. they were making a decision angela. merkel has come out saying. she's she feels uncomfortable with it. and i can definitely imagine that. everyone in twitter. felt uncomfortable with it it was one of. those difficult things everywhere you. went for the whole. trump presidency people would say um.

what are you doing why are you not. taking this down and of course you know. the first thing you've got to say is. irrespective of anyone's opinion and. that's the only way you can look at this. that this is an elected leader of a. country. and so you know irrespective of anything. else. for a private company to be saying that. we. we take an opinion which transcends. uh the election result is a really. uncomfortable one. so i know that it would have been a. really careful decision i think a really. deliberate decision. jack's been on podcasts and any places.

uh i'm joe rogan. talking about he believes that bands. shouldn't be forever. so who's to say that you know there. wouldn't be a root back. on these things but i do know that the. decision. was probably made. carefully reluctantly i think. i think it's the right decision i think. is the right decision and i think the. timing of it was probably right. i i would be you know it felt. it felt at the moment it took place.

it felt like the intensity of dialogue. and the toxicity of dialogue was. reaching such a stage. that you know six people already dead. it's just like. this could get this can escalate even. further and i have to say. since it's happened it does feel to me. like a bit of the stress in the room has. gone. someone said something uh about i think. president-elect biden said um the you. know a natural order of things you don't. think about your leaders.

every day you kind of know they're there. you've got context that they. have an awareness but you know this. sense of peril where you're thinking. about your leader and what might happen. every day. just contributes to bad mental health. it's not a healthy place for us to live. in. so you know i would guess that there. would always be a route back. for people even if they've had a. permanent ban. jack said that but i i do think it was. the right decision. i i am i'm really not sure i think.

i consider myself as someone that's on. the left i guess to some degree or maybe. left to center left but. um i it does make me feel a little bit. uncomfortable because you're right it. sets a bit of a presence for the future. in terms of how we deal with um. opinions we don't like things that might. be considered to be inciting violence. would you have done in this case. i think i think i would have um. suspended. his account um temporarily like the. facebook approach. yes i think that was i think that was. probably a better approach all things.

considered. um i think because trump is a very. unique very powerful individual. i would have also had someone i'm not. sure if this happened but someone from. twitter. contact his team and really have a. dialogue about it and. lay out that we can't allow our platform. to be a place where we're like denying. the election results and. therefore inciting you know these kinds. of things and basically. do and i would have used this suspension. period i think to have that conversation.

uh um but yeah but i think with the. removal is it sets a bit of a strange. presence. and i did wonder before this moment you. know social media is very left. it's a very it's a very like a liberal. place. i think if you were to just look at. social media you would think that. the labor party you're always going to. win typically as well because. you think i think so because i think. that's more a reflection of who you. follow because. you know i definitely think there's.

plenty of pockets of people who. are huge brexit supporters who clearly i. mean the numbers say that there's more. of them. yeah but it's just i think the brexit. and the conservative. narrative is less akin to like the. virtue signaling that you're rewarded. for on social media. so if i say uh child a lunch boxes for. all. right everyone's eager but if i was to i. i would prob i might even lose my job or. be canceled or be criticized if i said. oh no we don't need to fun give as much. money to the nhs or something.

so just seems like the liberal the sort. of left talking points are a little bit. more. acceptable on social media and the right. ones might. make you lose your job or get you. cancelled or you know what i mean i. think it's about tonality rather than. uh perspective i mean look you know. absolutely it's not going to play well. if you're in the market for likes to say. that i think we need a tighter fiscal. policy. and you know and less benefits for. people he's going to play. differently i wouldn't necessarily agree. that the platforms have.

a specific bias though i think you know. of course it's my echo chamber. yeah generally you know i've witnessed. plenty of strong. opinion on both sides likely as it was. my job to try and. ensure there was a a degree of good. conversation in those things. and i i've probably not seen that. because i've only seen my own little. echo chamber and i'm young i'm. you know i'm surrounded by very left. uh people in my organization and stuff. so i probably surrounded myself with.

that narrative a bit more. but i just i've always felt that um. where does social media go from here i. mean it's. it feels like it's a really pivotal. moment we've got this big case with. facebook at the moment in the us where. they're trying to you know considering. breaking up facebook and. we've got trump being banned from. twitter we've got parlor being pulled. from the app store and amazon web. services. um it feels like we're in a bit of a i. don't know maybe we've always been. in this constant debate of what social. media is and where the lines are but. what what are some of the big changes. you see coming to look i think.

it's pretty clear that regulations. coming in some in some. capacity uh i think to be honest i think. most of the big organizations would. welcome it when it comes to choosing to. de-platform people whether they're the. president or whether they're. troublemakers. having some rules that are agreed by an. independent. authority would be welcome for most of. those platforms i think. you know it's really uncomfortable when. organizations are losing sleep. being on the inside is really. uncomfortable when you're losing sleep.

about. should we be doing this can we be doing. this how do we account for doing this. uh jack daughter did a series of tweets. a couple of nights ago. trying to he's formidable i think. trying to demystify how decisions are. made so no win almost everyone who reads. it will be critical of it. but you know he's trying to say look. this is how we reach that decision. um i think there'll be degree of. regulation i think that's probably a. good thing. i suspect some of the big groups will be.

broken up. and you know facebook and google i think. will probably be broken up and the. question will be. whether they are willing to embrace that. and do it. and all of the shareholders and all of. the users and all the people who work. there benefit. or if they resist it and you know the. lessons of microsoft. bill gates and steve balmer will say we. lost 10 years of our company. because we spent 10 years resisting. uh regulation resisting control had they. just. given up to that they'd probably.

microsoft's in a good place again i. think biggest company in the world again. but you know they. uh they would have been in a better. place to to avoid those things so. um i think regulations probably coming i. think it's probably a good thing. do you think they're gonna break up. facebook yeah you think they will yeah. in the next five years. really so you think they'll force. facebook to sell. whatsapp or instagram or something yeah. or both yeah or both yeah really. almost certainly i would guess youtube. will be sold from google as well. really yeah blimey that's crazy.

better go somewhere is it better for a. consumer. so number one if you own any of those. shares every time that these breakups. uh the all of the value of the firms is. worth more than the constituent parts. so from shareholder point of view it's a. really good idea. to pick the right moment but break. yourself up and. um and it's good from a consumer point. of view. i often sit there big youtube consumer. if you're a youtube consumer you said go. going hang on this used to be like the. big daddy of video.

they've missed tick tock they've missed. twitch. they've missed like all of these big. opportunities that youtube was. right in the box seat for they've missed. all of them why because big firms. generally are slow and don't innovate. and so it's better for everyone if. you've got people. experimenting doing new things and you. know if you've got a layer of regulation. over the top of that. saying these degrees of norms of. behavior that you expect. it's it's much better for everyone and.

it's really exciting i think. in the case of facebook mark mark would. respond to that and say we've got 10. years or. 15 years whatever it is now of. experience moderating. terrorist content and you know really. you know horrific types of content we've. built. ai systems which are the best in the. world and we're removing you know we're. spotting 90. of posts before they're reported and. this has taken us you know. decades and billions of dollars of. investment to get to this point if you. take instagram and put it in the hands. of an i don't know an adobe. they don't have that experience they. don't have that um data.

that they don't have the ai systems and. so it's not going to help. for um missing misinformation and it's a. misdirection though isn't it i mean. that specifically if someone is saying. we have learned we've developed. machine learning that can do these. things that sounds like a marketable. product. that sounds like something that. shouldn't be the point of difference. that shouldn't be your differentiator. that you've got better capacity to deal. with those things but rather that should. be something that. some entrepreneur avails to other firms.

and i think you know sometimes we can. get locked into an idea of thinking. oh the narrative that we're being given. is the right one here. but rather more than thinking actually. if someone could put a layer of safety. over the internet. that used that machine learning to spot. things that were really heinous that. that used that learning to make sure. that no one had a bad experience. wow pinterest could use that linkedin. could use that. tic toc could use that it should be. something that everyone could plug. into their products and then you.

immediately start saying wow. there could be gaps in the market for. new products here maybe there's a. version of twitter that's mega safe. maybe there's a version of instagram. that just has a different aspect to it. so you know my view would be absolutely. we've learned. these things but the notion that somehow. that safety of experience should be a. proprietary benefit. rather than something that is afforded. to everyone. is just i think a a a. bit of deception and a bit of.

misdirection the other talking point. mark zuckerberg would rebuttal you. basically. because i've looked at his arguments for. not breaking up facebook he says well. what have we got a monopoly in. we're not as big as imessage in. messaging we're not as big as this. platform. for uh he and he rattles through the. platforms and says what what are we. bigger what are we. the monopoly on and um he says there's. tons of competition we've got tick tock. our heels pinterest. twitter you know uh google you know. these platforms so he says you know. where is the monopoly here. um and i have found that kind of.

compelling i know again it's a bit of a. misdirection but. i i can't tell you what he's the what. what. facebook have the monopoly on. yeah well firstly monopolies don't have. to be more than 70. i think you know i think by the rules. for monopoly in the uk it's like more. than 20 30 percent of a market so. you know so so to be monopolistic you. don't have to be dominant. but you know when you've got three of. the top five apps. you start questioning whether there is a. degree of undue influence look i've got.

no dog in the fight. um my view personally is that. i i suspect these firms will be broken. up and the question then becomes. do you serve your employees better. do you serve the people who use your. apps better do you serve. the the state of society better. by just going with that and saying let's. do it but let's do it. joyfully get on with it and i suspect. personally i think you know some of. these organizations are going to be.

presented with. the the challenge some of them will go. okay i'll break. we'll break ourselves up and others will. say actually we're going to. uh we're going to position with this and. just the less than microsoft is. you lose 10 years of your life by. resisting talk a lot about the joy of. work. we've talked a lot about you know your. past experiences at youtube and twitter. what is next for you when you're. thinking about what's going to give you. joy. from work in the future what are you. thinking about um i'm writing a book. about resilience. uh are you able to tell us the title. yeah i mean it's the title is.

a big ongoing discussion okay i'm not at. that stage um. which is just about all about the things. we've talked about how resilience is. actually a collective thing rather than. an individual thing. um i've really enjoyed sort of doing. things like that. i i i'm doing a couple of things on. climate change so i worked with an. organization last year. yeah yeah so i'm working with alcohol's. climate reality now. but um i did something with an. organization last year that's trying to. reduce our plastic. footprint and you know so so.

there's a few things like that and i. really enjoy those things because they. i think they're non-linear i think you. know what success looks like is really. hard to judge. and it's all about trying to achieve. things so i did something. through october where i presented into. about 100. 70 different companies i presented. climate change into 70 different. organizations. and you know connections have started. from that so the. al gore's climate reality is al gore did. that film an inconvenient truth about 15.

years ago probably short in school. my dad made me watch it right sat me. down and said to my brothers and sisters. you got to watch this. and he's turned he's work on that into. an organization. and it used to be he had to pay 7 000 to. go and be trained in las vegas. now he's in the era of zoom he said. anyone could be trained on it for free. really so i trained the only commitment. you have to do is you have to commit to. spread the word. so hence i did about you know all these. presentations getting out and. and spreading the word um and that's. really energizing sort of.

because i think a lot of us feel a. certain way towards climate but. feel powerless about what can we do so. uh i've done a bit of that. hopefully i'll i'm i've got a few more. things coming along on that so. will you ever get back into the world of. social networking i i really want to. avoid. doing that so that's why i'm working. hard on. podcast and writing because if i can pay. the bills doing that. you know full-time jobs are really. demanding. and you know my my social media.

consumptions remains. i'm a huge user of twitter i'm a huge. user of tick tock. and uh so my social media consumption is. still there i just don't want to. i just don't want to work in those. organizations again why. just you know they're really exhausting. you know like you work really hard i had. so much fun working at twitter and. youtube before. but you know you do long days especially. working with california. up in the morning and you you're working. late at night so. i don't want to really go and work in a.

big company again. i'm going to conclude this podcast by. just asking you you know. for you and from everything you know. about the joy of work and what makes. work joyful and fulfilling. if you had to just focus on one thing. that was the most important factor for. you. um in work what would that be um. there's a 70 year long study out of uh. yale university looking at what. the the secret of longevity and. happiness is and the secret of it. studied. these guys for like the whole of their.

lives and the secret of longevity and. happiness. is love and friendship and i think. work is far closer to that than we might. imagine when we feel a connection with. the people we work with. it makes everything worthwhile and i. think. hidden in all the chat about. productivity and strategy. and and you know market fear and usps. we lose the fact that when we feel most. motivated by work. it's when we feel like we're doing it. with other people.

and so that's it for me i used to a. great day at work was when i laughed. 12 times and you know and it was almost. it felt trivial to mention that it felt. like. oh why do you love your job to mention. that i just love these people i love. being around these people i'm energized. by these people. feels really embarrassing to admit but i. think that's the secret of it when we. feel part of something our jobs can feel. defining that can feel part of our. identity bruce thank you. um that loops perfectly round to the. start of the podcast in my expression.

that i think remote work as hell so. but also it's uh it's something that. yeah i've come to learn over the last. nine months i'm sure a lot of other. people have. um thank you so much for all the work. you've done on work generally because i. think. it's a conversation not a lot of people. are having or breaking through with. and some of the ideas you deliver in. your book and just generally in your. content across. youtube and your social channels. linkedin your articles on there. i think really are helping to dismantle. a conventional and sometimes toxic. framework for how work has to be so on.

behalf of someone that works and has. teams i want to thank you for that. because it's been um it's a value that. the world needs but also thank you for. the conversation today. thank you it's an absolute pleasure. thank you. [Music]. oh.

you.