The Savings Expert: Passive Income Is A Scam! Post-Traumatic Broke Syndrome Is Controlling Millions!

People talk a lot about passive income. This. >> is not a thing. Look, there's two ways. to get wealthier, and passive income is. not part of that equation, but what's. really important for people is how we. should spend money. Cuz I've written. about money and finance and investing. for 20 [music] years, and I can tell you. the correlation between how much you. spend and how happy you are. It can. exist, but it is not as simple as you. think. Morgan Hel is the legendary. financial guru, >> revealing that everything we've been. told about saving and spending money. >> could be our biggest downfall. [music]. And here's why. If you're unhappy with. your life, it is a very easy assumption.

to make that if you had more money, a. bigger house, a better car, or whatever. it might be, things would be better. And. it's a lie we tell ourselves, of course, because here's the truth. So much of. spending is a psychological itch that. you're trying to scratch. And that. manifests in so many different ways. For. example, life is a competition. It. doesn't matter how well I'm doing, it. matters how well I'm doing relative to. you. And the most [music] tangible way. to do that is through material stuff. >> I was reading some funny stats. They say. that if you win the lottery, the. probability of your neighbor going. bankrupt [music] increases. >> It's an amazing statistic. So, be.

careful who you socialize with because. you're going to anchor to them as a. baseline level of success and happiness. >> So, is it wrong to buy a Rolex? >> Absolutely not. But when it's. controlling your personality, it's no. different than any other addiction where. it's forcing you to do things that you. otherwise don't want to do. >> What about people who don't seem to. spend anything? >> It's just as dangerous. [music] Like. there's something called post-traumatic. broke syndrome and I'll talk about that. But I guarantee you that everyone can. spend money in a way it's going to make. them happier. >> So if I wanted to make a framework to. know how to spend my money, where do I. start? But also based on everything you.

know about money, if I want to get. complete financial freedom, what's the. five things that I should be thinking. about? >> The first thing that I think that's most. important is. >> I see messages all the time in the. comment section that some of you didn't. realize you didn't subscribe. So, if you. could do me a favor and double check if. you're a subscriber to this channel, that would be tremendously appreciated. It's the simple, it's the free thing. that anybody that watches this show. frequently can do to help us here to. keep everything going in this show in. the trajectory it's on. So, please do. double check if you've subscribed and uh. thank you so much because a strange way.

you are you're part of our history and. you're on this journey with us and I. appreciate you for that. So, yeah, thank. you [music]. Morgan. Everybody loves to talk about investing. They love to talk about saving money. But I've never heard anybody emphasize. the importance of spending money. You've. written this book, The Art of Spending. So, it begs the question, why would. someone like you who sells tens of. millions of copies of their books when.

they write about something and really, really cares about the art of writing. commit themselves to writing a book. about the art of spending? when you. couldn't when you could have written. anything that you wanted to and it would. have been a success. >> So I've written about money and finance. and investing for 20 years and almost. never had I myself. said what is my spending philosophy? I. could tell you how I invest. I can tell. you how I save. I could tell you why I. do those things. If five years ago if. you said Morgan tell me your philosophy. about spending in your own life I'd be.

like I I don't really know. And as I. looked into it, there are literally tens. of thousands of books on how to invest, how to grow your money, how to get rich, how to help your career. That top that. topic is endless. There is virtually no. book out there written about spending. money. And I think the reason why is. because we don't I think we intuitively. think nothing needs to be said because. the answer should be obvious. More is. better, fancier is better. That's the. end of the topic. But if you know. particularly wealthier people, I mean it.

affects everybody, but particularly. wealthier people, you know, it's not. that simple. That the correlation. between how much you spend and how happy. you are, it it can exist. Everyone can. spend money in a way it's going to make. them happier, but it is not as simple as. you think. And as I started digging into. it in my own life of when have I been. envious of other people, of their. material possessions, why was I envious? Why when have I been jealous? Why was I. jealous? What kind of spending made me. happy? What left me completely flat?

It's it's a much more complicated topic. than it seems at the surface. You know, another title for the book could have. been the psychology of spending money. because that's what this is. So, to look. at the psychology of greed and envy and. social aspiration and like climbing the. social ladder, who you're trying to. impress, whether those people are paying. any attention to you, that's what this. book is. So for someone like me who. wants to improve my relationship with. spending, I guess the question, yeah, I. guess the qu first question is. understanding the art of spending money,

simple choices for a rich, what is it. going to do for me? How is it going to. make my life better to understand this? Why why does it matter to the person. that's listening right now? >> I think it is a very easy assumption to. make if you're unhappy with your life. that if you had more money, those. problems would go away. >> Sometimes it can be true. It's not. automatically false. It's just easier to. assume that that's true than it actually. is. And so I guarantee you that every. single person listening to this right. now has some degree of that. If I had a.

little bit more money, my problems would. go away. Even if they don't necessarily. know it or not. So much of spending is a. psychological exercise. There's an itch. that you're trying to scratch and that. manifests in so many different ways. And. so I've often thought of money, look, is. money the root of society, the core of. society? No. There's obviously a million. things more important than money, but I. do think it's the clearest window that. we can look through to try to figure out. what's going on in our own lives, in. other people's lives, in society. It. shows very starkly what people value,

what they're scared of, what they're. aspiring to become. There are many more. elements to the puzzle. Your health, your friends, your family. We can go on. that forever. But money is a very clear. window that if you see how somebody. engages with money, you're like, "Oh, I. understand your insecurities. I. understand your aspirations. I. understand your self-confidence. I. understand what you think of other. people. But the point is that it's a. psychological itch. It It's not just I. want the nice car because nice cars are. better. There's a social signaling. You're signaling to others. You're. signing to yourself. It's a trophy for. yourself of what you've overcome. The.

more I dug into it, the more it was so. clear of like spending is not just on. material stuff. It's not just I want to. buy this car or this house or these. clothes or these jewelry because it's. nice. It's I'm trying to send a signal. to others or to myself of what I've. overcome. One of the ways I thought. about this in my own life was if I was. on a deserted island with maybe just. just me and and my family, nobody could. see how we were living. Nobody can see. your house, nobody can see your car, nobody can see your clothes, nobody can. see your jewelry. How would I live? For.

me, and I think most people in that. exercise, you immediately gravitate away. from status and towards utility. Like I. would not want a Lamborghini. I probably. want like a pickup truck, something that. has like more utility. If nobody could. see it, I would just want utility. I. would not want an enormous house. I. would want a house with a nice view. because I'm not trying to show off to. other people. I just want something that. is calming and and serene to myself. And. so once you start seeing the stark. difference between utility and status. once you once you force yourself to see.

it, you're like, "Oh, it's everywhere.". >> Is something inherently wrong with. status? Is it wrong to buy a Rolex? >> Absolutely not. Particularly at certain. points of your life. >> Okay. So, when when is it good? When is. it bad? When is it indifferent? Like. indifferent? >> I don't know. I don't know. It's hard to. say what's good and bad in terms of a. formula because everybody's different. But I would say this. >> My own personal desire to show off. materially. happened when I was in my late teens, early 20s. And looking back, I didn't. know this then, but the reason why is. because I had nothing else to offer the.

world. I had no intelligence. I had no. wisdom. I didn't know how to love. anyone. I had nothing else to offer. friends, family, spouses, whatever it. would be. And so the last remaining. lever if you're trying to get attention. and respect is well look I have no. intelligence to offer. I have no wisdom. to offer. Maybe people will admire me. for my car. >> That was why I wanted it. >> And now that I I hope. >> in a in I I hope to today 20 years later. I have a little bit more to offer to my. wife to my friends to my family to. employers and customers whatot then my.

desire for those things has gone down. Not to zero but it's gone down. There's. a great Warren Buffett quote where he. says, "Success in life is when the. people who you want to love you do love. you." And key to that is like you have. to ask the question like, "Who do you. want to love you?" And for a lot of. people, the quick knee-jerk reaction is. everybody. And so you want to have a. nice car, nice clothes, nice jewelry. because you think everyone's going to. stop and stare. When I drive this down. the road, people are going to be stop. and say, "Look at that guy. Look, look.

at her. That's amaz. I admire them. I respect them. And by. and large, that is almost never true. because no one's thinking about you as. much as you are. They're not they're not. paying attention to your car or your. clothes or your house. They're busy. worrying about themselves. >> Jimmy Carr, who I think you've had on. the show before. Is that right? >> Love [clears throat] Jimmy Carr. He said. this a couple weeks ago. I heard it and. it was one of those I had to stop and. write it down because it was so. profound. He said, "In your 20s, people. worry about what other people think of.

them. In your 30s, you say, "I don't. care what anybody thinks of me." And in. your 40s, you finally realize a truth, which was nobody was thinking about you. the whole time. They were busy worrying. about themselves. And look, that's not. black and white. Of course, people think. about you and look at you and sometimes. judge you, but not nearly to the extent. that we think. And that was why I get. back to the exercise. If nobody was. watching, how would I live? The truth is. because virtually nobody is watching. except the people who I really love and. admire. and they're gonna admire me for.

things that have nothing to do with the. kind of car that I drive or the clothes. that I wear. >> What's the the evolutionary basis for. all of this stuff? >> Life's a competition. It doesn't matter. how well I'm doing. It matters how well. I'm doing relative to you. It doesn't. matter how big my house is. If I'm. trying to signal, all that matters is my. house is bigger than yours. That's true. for all wealth. There's no such thing as. you are wealthy once you have x number. of dollars. That that does not exist. Everything is relative to other people. And the truth is like we live in a world. of such material abundance where the.

majority of people listening this will. have some sort of shelter and a car and. and can buy can buy clothes and whatnot. And because relative to a lot of. history, we live in material abundance. The competition the arms race for bigger. nicer things is extraordinary. And it's. way more powerful and potent today than. it's ever been for two reasons. One is. social media. So I am now aware of the. homes that other people live in. the. cars that they drive, the clothes that. the vacations that they take. I'm now. aware of it in a way that we were not 15.

years ago. The other thing is because. the internet has democratized. access to audience and attention. The. ability to become extremely rich is much. more powerful than it's ever been. It's. still rare, of course, but it's it's. easier today than it's ever been to. become very very wealthy, even if only a. small number of people are doing it. because your your potential customer. base is now the entire world. You know, a 100 years ago, if I was a businessman,

my customer base was whoever lived in my. town. >> Now, if you're a [clears throat]. businessman, your customer base can be. the entire world. And so, it's easier to. make a huge fortune. And because of. social media, once you make that. fortune, people are probably going to. know about it because a lot of those. people who become very rich are going to. say, "Look at how I'm living." And so, you have this like trickle down. aspiration of everyone else being like, "My definition of wealthy, if you're a. young person today, >> a young person's definition of wealthy. might be a multi-billionaire with a. private jet and a private island." where.

I think 80 years ago people's definition. of wealthy was a three-bedroom house and. one car and and a and and a happy. family. And so we live in a world where. like aspirations have inflated by such a. dramatic degree that the arms race of. spending just gets that much that much. higher. I think there's something in. this idea that you almost have to. develop the skill of disconnecting your. admiration from your aspirations if you. want to live a good life because so many. kids will like look up to you and say I.

want to be like Morgan when I'm older um. because they admire what you've done but. the reality is they they're just seeing. the sort of shop window yeah. >> of your life and so I people do this. with Elon all the time. >> right and Elon has even said he's like. you might think you want to be me but. you you don't. >> and he the clip where he did that he. points his head and he's It's a it's a. tornado up here. >> And I think it's true that for most. people who are extremely successful, >> who are the ones that people tend to to. look up to, like the extreme outlier. successes, a lot of the reason they're. so successful financially and in their.

career is because they've devoted every. second of their life to that career, >> which most of the time comes at the. expense of everything else. So they are. very successful, made a lot of money, and that came at the expense of their. health, their relationships, relationships with their their spouses, their children. So I make the point in. the book that of the top 10 richest men. in the world there are a cumulative 13. divorces among the top 10 richest people. and it's a small sample size like you. can't really you know say that that that. much with that but this is a group that.

is almost universally admired. particularly among young men you know. Elon Musk Jeff Bezos Mark Zuckerberg how. how amazing would it be to have that. much money but if you dig into their. actual their the the whole life. >> not just their net worth not just the. house and the jet that they have but if. you look at holistically their entire. life, you're like, I don't know. It's. it's it's it's not that great. It's it's. one thing to admire someone if you can. pick bits and pieces. I want I want his. house and her car and his career and his.

physique, but you can't pick bits and. pieces. You have to take the whole. thing. And once you take the whole. thing, you realize that like a lot of. the people who you may have been looking. up to either did not have a better life. than you did or it was just marginally. better in a way that was easy to. overlook. I had this conversation with a. girl in New York last week. I was at a. shoot, a client, like a brand shoot, and. she sat me down to interview me for Tik. Tok. And she said, um, she goes, "What. age did you become a millionaire?" And I. said, "About 24, 25." And she went, "Oh, I'm 24, 25 now, and I'm not a.

millionaire." And I remember saying to. her, I was like, "Yeah, but would you. would you take my trade?". >> And I explained to her, I was like, "So, I was lonely between the age of 18 and. roughly 20. I was working in call. centers. my parents wouldn't speak to. me. So I had no contact with my family. really um for through that period. And. then I started shoplifting at about 18. 19 to feed myself. And my brother had. given me this big um sort of industrial. packet of oats. And what I had to do is. it's like powder. I mixed the powder.

with water. And there's there's there's. a photo online I think from my previous. TED talk, my first one, where I was just. drinking this this powdered water. So I. said to her, I said and I was a. millionaire at 24. lonely, not speaking. to my family, drinking powder do. shoplifting, working night shifts in. multiple call centers, would you take. the trade? And she went, "No." Right? >> She went, "Absolutely not." She wouldn't. take the trade. And I said, "So, you. can't you can't pick it apart because I. if you want to my outcome, you have to. take the path that I took. If you want. my specific outcome, and people don't.

think about that, like one of the things. this podcast has actually taught me is. to think through the framework of. trade-offs.". >> Yeah. >> So, think about everything as a. trade-off. Think of a Zmpeek as a. trade-off. There's a trade you're making. somewhere. And even, you know, when you. aspire, you admire people, if you admire. what we've done here, for example, think. about the trade-off. Like even with this. team, the team have been working here. every single day, including the weekends. from morning till night for the last 14. days here in New York. Every single day, >> right? >> Do you want to do you want to do you.

want a podcast? Like, [laughter]. >> do you want the trade? And if you do, fine. But just be informed about, as you. say, both sides of the trade. Another. Jimmy Carr quote that I love. He's a. profound individual. Not only is he. hilarious, he's very smart. The quote. is, "Everyone is jealous of what you've. got. Nobody's jealous of how you got. it.". >> Yeah. >> And I think it's just so easy to. overlook. One of the things I write in. the book is what's called the reverse. obituary, which is it's a very good. helpful exercise to write down. It's. kind of morbid, but what do you want. your obituary to say? kind of a weird.

thing, but for me, everyone's different, but for me, I would want it to say. Morgan was a good father, a good. husband, a good friend, helped his. community, was a good worker. That's. what I would want it to say. Never in a. million years in that obituary would I. want it to say what my income was, how. big my house was, how many times I went. on vacation, how many horsepower my car. had. Like, it's ridiculous to think that. that's what it would [laughter] be. I. would want it. You instantly drift. towards the things that you know you're. actually you actually want in life. And.

of course, it's going to be different. for everyone, but I I I found it a. helpful thing because you realize that. it would be completely absurd to put the. things that I might be chasing in my. life in my obituary. And so if in any. given day, in any given year, you're. like, I got to earn a higher income and. I want to buy a bigger house and a I got. to need a new car and all you see, they. came out with this watch. But at the end. of your life, you know, that's not going. to matter. What's going to matter is. were you a good spouse, a good parent, a. good worker, were you honest? Were you a. good friend? Were you [clears throat]. funny? That's you know that's what's. going to matter because that's what you.

want in your obituary. >> I think part of the reason people spend. in the way that they do as well is. linked to that which is sometimes that. behavior which is also linked to the. point about trauma at the start might. result in a savings addiction. I often. wonder this cuz you know when I was. younger I had this crazy spending. problem. And I've also seen people who. don't seem to spend anything and they're. just like hoarding capital. You talk. about this a bit in the book. Like what. >> is that equally bad behavior? >> Yeah, I think it's equally bad because. both of them are the exact same thing. which is money's controlling you. Money. should be a tool that you use to become.

a better version of yourself to become a. happier, more content version of. yourself. But when it's controlling your. personality, it's it's it's no different. than like any any other addiction where. you don't it's forcing you to do things. that you otherwise don't want to do. And. that can manifest on either end of the. side. Either people can't stop spending. or they cannot spend enough. A lot of. financial adviserss will tell you one of. the biggest problems that they have are. clients who have saved enough money for. retirement. Good job. You saved for 40.

years. You maxed out your 401k. You did. everything you were supposed to. and now. you're 70 years old and you have enough. money to travel and play golf and you. won't you won't do it. And I think it's. because they become so accustomed to the. identity of I'm a saver. Every month I. save and every month my net worth goes. up and they cannot bring themselves into. switching gears and going in the other. direction. And for a lot of those. people, the money is in full control. over their identity. It's telling them. how to live, what to like, what to. aspire to, what to enjoy. the money is.

totally in control of their personality. and and it's it's just as dangerous and. just as just as detrimental as you when. you were a teenager of I can't stop. spending. It's and both of those are in. are they the money is like playing the. marionette doll of your life. It's. telling you exactly what to do and when. to do it. >> If I wanted to make a framework to know. how to spend my money where do I start? Do I have to get clear on something? Do. I you know and I guess the other. question which is somewhat linked to. this is this overarching debate around. can money make you happy?

>> Right? But I'm trying to figure out like. where do I start because I I want to one. of the things I want to get out of today. is I want to have a a clearer framework. for how to spend my money. >> Well, those two points that you just. brought up I think are very related. The. first on the point of can money make you. happier? The answer is yes, but there's. a there's a there's an asterisk next to. it that we need to get to. For years, there was a big academic debate of does. more money make you happy? A lot of some. of the studies showed yes, clearly it. does. Others show studies showed no, it. really doesn't. And the academics, the. economists were like battling for.

decades. It's kind of been cleared up in. the last just the last couple of years, this last couple of decades with some. nuance, which is this. If you are. already an unhappy person, if you're. already anxious, if you're already. depressed, by and large, having more. money will not help you at least that. much. It might help you a little bit. around the margins. If you're if you. start as an unhappy, depressed, anxious. person. If you are already a happy, content, joyful, laughing person, having. more money will give you a better life.

So in either direction, it's just. leveraging who you already were. It's. not going to change you that much. It's. just going to leverage who you already. were. Very similar to like they say this. about power. Like once you gain power in. politics or something, it just leverages. the personality that you already had. >> Money is very much like that. And so. it's it's not a a a panacea in the sense. of like oh like if you're miserable like. if you had more money it's going to. clear up your problems. It can make some. of your problems a little bit easier to. deal with. But I mean think about it in.

these stark terms. Let's say you are. overweight and unhappy. You hate your. job and you're recently divorced and. your kids won't talk to you but you live. in a mansion that has a Ferrari in the. driveway and you got all kinds of fancy. stuff. Is is is that a good life? If all. if everything else in your life sucked. and you woke up every morning going, "Ah, I got to go to work today. I hate. my job. I can't stand my job. I'm I'm. lonely. I'm miserable. I'm overweight. I. can't sleep. I'm addicted to alcohol.". Whatever it might be. Of course, it's a. terrible life. The house and the car.

don't matter at all. But you can flip. that around and say like, let's say you. live in a very modest middle class house. and you drive a a 10-year-old Honda. Civic, but you love your job. You love. your co-workers. You have a great. relationship with your spouse. Your kids. admire you. You have your friends over. for a barbecue every Friday night. Materially, it's very modest. You have. what you need. You're not impoverished. You're not homeless. You have the food. that you want and the shelter that you. want. But you would be an absolute. maniac to choose the miserable person in.

the mansion versus the content, happy. person in the middle house. If your goal. is to live a good life, it's psychotic. to pick one of one over the other. I. felt this quite starkly recently because. I flew to Cape Town on my own. Um I've. only ever been there with my girlfriend. and with other friends and the first. time I've only been there a few times. I've got a house there and it's a very. big house and the first time I came with. was with my family. Second time it's. with my girlfriend and my friends. This. time I came on my own. >> and I felt this deep existential feeling.

waking up walking through that house. alone thinking [ __ ] me. Like it [snorts]. was so clear to me that the point of. such a such a thing is to fill it with. people and you say. >> yes that's what I I make this point in. the book of like the very simple. question will a big house make you. happier? >> I think it will make you depressed if. it's empty [laughter]. >> because that's how I felt. I was like. I'd rather be in a studio apartment. alone than a big house on my own. >> Right. I had a similar realization to.

you a couple years ago when I took my my. my my family and I went to Maui for a. vacation and I love Maui. my favorite. place in the world. And now they have. kids. So I'm building sand castles with. my kids on the beach in Maui. And that I. remember thinking like this is this is a. 10 out of 10. This is like this is peak. life for me. Building sand castles with. my kids, everyone's happy in the sun. >> But then I had this realization of like. if that's a 10, playing with Legos at. home on the living room floor with my. kids is like a nine. Like it's really. close because the realization was what I.

enjoy is like quality time with my kids. And I think a lot of the reason that. people like vacate, like travel is not. because they like getting on an airplane. and flying around the world and being. jet-lagged and cramped into a small. hotel. What they like is uninterrupted. time away from work, away from all the. other stresses of everyday life. That's. what they actually enjoy. That's why. they like travel. It's not necessarily. the location. It's like what the. location is doing for you. So the. question of will a big house make you. happier? It will to the extent that it. makes it easier to have your friends and.

family over. >> because your friends and family are the. ones who are actually making you happy. >> And so the answer can be can will a nice. house make you happy? The answer can be. yes if you're using it for the right. reasons. There was this article in the. New York Times, this is probably 10 or. 15 years ago and uh the article said two. things happened to Julia Roberts this. week. One, she won the Academy Award and. two, she found out her husband was. cheating on her. And so the column said, "Pop quiz, did Julia Roberts have a good. week?" And it's like, you'd be a fool to. say yes. It was probably the worst week.

of her life, I imagine. >> Yeah. >> Um, but what we see from the outside was. doled up in a beautiful dress, accepting. the highest honor of her career and. saying like, "Wow, that must be an. amazing." But it gets back to once you. see the full picture, you're like, "Nah, it's not as easy as it seems.". >> You say on page 23 of your book, a quote. that I loved, show off the inside of. your house, not the outside. >> Right. because the inside of your house or what. your friends and your family are seeing. >> Is there like a a hack here? Like is. there, you know, because you have all.

these like internet commun communities. that come up with these like hacks, these other ways to live. They they they. step outside of the matrix and they form. their own little their own little cult. that are like doing it differently and. not not abiding by the rules of the the. quote unquote matrix. I very much feel. like most of us are trapped in the. matrix. We're trapped in this like. status game competing against each. other, not not searching for happiness. like what is the the hack here? How do I. get out the matrix and what does that. look like? >> I think if there is a formula that I I. lay out in the book and I I make the. point that like there's there's no. formula for how to spend money. But if I.

did try to make a formula for a pretty. good life and this extends way outside. of money, the formula for a pretty good. life is independence plus purpose. If. you want to say like how how can I be a. happy person? You need to be. independent. You need to be able to do. what you want to do when you want to do. it with whom you want to do it with. And. you need some kind of purpose that is. higher than yourself. And that could be. a million different things. It could be. friends, it could be family, it could be. career, it could be religion, whatever. it might be. I think it is very. difficult to imagine anyone having a. good life without those two things. If. your entire life and your schedule is.

dictated by somebody else of you have to. go to this job that you don't like, you. have to have a long commute that you. don't like, you have to do this when you. don't want to do it, it's it's hard to. be happy. And if you don't have any kind. of purpose that you're doing it for, it's difficult to be happy. And so the. idea that to me, the best thing to spend. money on is independence. And I view it. as purchasing. I I don't view it as. saving money. I view it as purchasing. independence. That's how I I view I view. like I'm buying independence when I.

save. And so to me, the biggest thing. that I spend my money on, and this. sounds weird, but I is saving. And I. view that as buying independence. I view. that as every dollar that I save is a. little bit more independent than I was. before. It's a little bit of my future. that I now own and control. And if if. you're listening to this and you're. like, "Look, I'm not financially. independent. I have no I have no. possibility of being financially. independent." Independence exists on a. spectrum. And literally every dollar. that you save is a little bit more.

independent than you were before. If you. have a $100 in the bank in savings, that. can make it so that if you were to lose. your job, you have a little bit more. flexibility for rent or groceries or. whatever it might be that you didn't. before. $1,000, $10,000, any amount that. you have is a little bit more. independent than you were before. And so. when you view. one of the cores of living a good life. as independence and any amount of saving. money will buy you independence, I think. that's a powerful observation for. people. And then the purpose part is.

going to be different for everyone. For. me right now in my life, it's being a. good father. That's what I want my end. my identity to be. That's my. [clears throat] overarching goal in life. is to be a good dad. I I think the vast. majority of parents will tell you that. there was no greater joy, purpose than. watching their kids thrive. Can also. bring a lot of sorrow and a lot of. sleepless nights and a lot of anxiety. and a lot of worry that comes along with. it. But nothing that I've experienced or. any of the other parents that I know. would would say that anything in their. life has come before that that it's been.

a great thing. So we got on this point. because the formula is independence plus. purpose. For me the purpose is being a. parent. That's not going to be true for. everyone. >> But you're trading independence for. that. >> I'm trading it's internal independence. that I'm giving up. I want to sacrifice. for my kids. I want to like loyalty to. people who deserve your loyalty is a. wonderful thing. Loyalty to people who. don't deserve your loyalty sucks. And so. if you are work, if you're giving your. loyalty to a company that doesn't. respect you, that sucks. That's.

terrible. Loyalty to people who deserve. it is a very fulfilling thing. So my. kids deserve my loyalty. >> How did they earn that loyalty? [laughter]. >> Just by being my kids. And there's some. days where I feel like they they don't. appreciate it, [laughter] of course. But. I I think that tends to be true. People. get into problems when they are loyal to. people or organizations or political. affiliations who don't deserve the. loyalty. That's when it gets dangerous. >> Do you think the promise of independence. and freedom has a secret hidden dark. trade-off that people don't talk about? Because there's this culture right now.

of like, you know, be your own boss and. stand on your own two feet. And when you. think about what makes humans happy, it. seems to be collective things. It seems. to be actually in your case, as you were. saying, dependence. Your kids depend on. you. In some ways, you depend on them. All the things that seem to like having. my friends at my house made me happier. than being in the house alone, right? But the nar the public narrative is all. about like optimizing for freedom, whatever that means, and really more so. optimizing for independence, not. depending on someone else. But when you. look at the people that seem to be the.

the most unhappy, they seem to be the. most independent, >> right? because they're they if you. picture someone like living in a living. by themselves in the middle of Montana. with no one around them or whatever it. might be. >> No family, no pets, freelance work on a. laptop on their own in a in a glass box. in Dubai. Um no no big obligations, not. not in a church. >> But back to the formula, independence. plus purpose. Those people have no. purpose. >> Oh yes. >> And so I think it's I think yes, everyone is going to be I'm I'm.

dependent on my wife, my kids. But, you. know, there is dependency there, but I'm. I'm choosing I chose her as a spouse. I. chose to have kids. And so, I I still. did it on my terms. And so, you're never. going to be or I think you don't want to. be a 100% independent in the sense that. you don't rely on anyone and no one. relies on you because then you have no. purpose. >> It's choosing who [clears throat] you. want. I think it's I think you're not. independent if you have to be loyal to a. job that you hate, but you have to have. it because it's the only job you got and.

you and you have to do it and you're you. you have to pay this exorbitant rent on. an apartment that you don't even enjoy. that much. Like those are dependence on. things that you don't want, but like I. want to be dependent on my family. because that gives me purpose. >> It's like the independence to make the. choice, I guess. >> To make the choice of who you're going. to be dependent on, right? >> Got you. And [clears throat] on this. earlier point, you were talking about. saving um and that you your favorite. form of spending is saving. >> Yeah. >> Someone's listening now, how much money. do you think they should at a minimum.

have saved? >> If you try to get technical about it, I. would say what are the odds that at some. point in your life, you're going to lose. your job and not be able to find another. job for six months. The odds are not bad. that that will happen to you at some. point. Not very comfortable to think. about. Maybe it's already happened to. you already, but the odds that at some. point that will happen are pretty good. And therefore, if you were to say like, look, a good measure of. some level of higherend independence, not a low level of independence, but.

like a a medium level of independence is. six is is I could keep myself going for. 6 months. Now, for a lot of people, that's a daunting task. And I it's okay. You're probably not going to achieve. that when you're 18. Am I it's going to. take some savings to get there, but that. is a level at which you can exhale to a. degree that most people have never been. able to do before of like there's going. to be some bad stuff happening in your. life. It's going to be uncomfortable, but it's going to be okay. And for for. for most people for most of history, it. was there's bad things going to happen. to you and you're not going to be okay. It's going to be very traumatic. And and.

one of the important things there is. when you lose that job, the ability to. go find a good job, even a better job. where you want, doing what you want with. the people who you like working with is. very important. If you don't have any. savings, you're going to have to by. default pick the very first job that you. can come across, even if it's a terrible. job in a location that you hate, doing. something you hate, working with people. you don't like. And so the flexibility. to give yourself time to find a job that. is a little bit easier and better for. you, that is the purpose of savings.

>> And that goes back to your point about. independence, which is you want to. building up those savings is building up. the independence or the freedom to make. a choice about who you work with, >> right? >> If the worst were to happen, you don't. have to necessarily go get a job at, you. know, some awful place, >> some some terrible place. You talk about. jealousy in the book as well and um I. was reading [clears throat] some stats. that quite funny stats but they they say. that essentially that if you're if you. win the lottery the probability of your. neighbor going bankrupt increases.

[laughter]. >> It's an amazing statistic, right? [gasps]. >> So what's what's happening [laughter]. there? >> Well, you're looking at your neighbor. who won the lottery and your neighbors. probably bought a vacation house, bought. a new car, sending their kids to private. school, whatever it might be. and you. watching that are like, I need that for. myself. It's it's unfair that they have. it and I don't and I'm gonna go do any. reckless financial decision to get that. So much of what we think is is normal. Our definition of success is what other.

people around us have. And so if you are. watching your neighbor live a better. life than you, then all a sudden your. definition of a good life is what. they're doing. And you will do some. reckless things to get it. I think. that's that's what happens. And so one. of the takeaways there is like be. careful who you socialize with because. you're going to anchor to them as a. baseline level of success and happiness. Be very careful with what you do and who. you look up to and who you aspire to. I. grew up in Lake Tahoe, California. And.

this was before tech money when it was. not a wealthy area. it is now because. all the tech money from San Francisco. came up. But Tahoe in the 90s and early. 2000s was was just a out in the woods. and you know you could buy a house for. nothing and most people in town didn't. have any money. And then I went to. college in Los Angeles where there is a. lot of wealth, there are high. expectations and there are Lamborghinis. and Rolls-Royces and whatnot. And one of. my observations was people were happier. in Tahoe. And I think the reason why is. because the definition of success in.

Tahoe back then was a two-bedroom house. and a pickup truck. >> That was success. In Los Angeles, the. definition of success was a mansion and. a and a Bentley. And so it was it was. easier for people in Tahoe to be like, I'm good. I I check the boxes. Like. look, I'm successful. Look at look at my. tiny little house and my beat up pickup. truck. That's success, right? And so. that was like be careful who you. socialize with because you're going to. anchor to their level of success. I have. a some graphs in front of you there. Um. I think one of them is the spectrum of.

financial independence. >> Yeah. >> Could you explain to me what that is and. and how how that's useful to understand. and why that's useful to understand? >> I think it's I had this friend uh 10 or. 10 or 20 years ago and he said, "I don't. save any money because I don't see the. purpose. All I'd be able to save is a. hundred bucks a month and what's that. going to do for me?" And since I don't. think it's going to do anything for me, I I might as well just go spend it. And. I remember thinking, no, no, that's like. $100 in savings or if you do it for a. year, $1,200 in savings is $1,200 more.

independence than you had before. And. again, not if, but when you lose your. job or your car breaks down, you're. going to realize how unbelievably. valuable that money is. And it's not. savings, it's independence that it's. giving you. So the idea that. independence is on a spectrum. It is not. you either don't have to work or you. have to work. It's not that stark, but. most people think of it in those terms. Why would I try to become independent if. I have no chance of not working? >> And the simple way to view it is every. dollar that you save is a piece of your. future that you own, that you control,

that is yours. The flip side of that is. like every dollar of debt that you have. is a piece of your future that somebody. else controls. It's a it's a moment in. time in the future that is not yours. It. belongs to somebody else. And so I've. always viewed it on a spectrum. When I. was younger and much poorer, I was a big. saver. Even though like was I. independent? Like no, of course I had to. work. I had to work to pay my rent and. pay my groceries, of course. But I. viewed it as like every $20 that I. saved, every $50 that I saved put me in. a better position than I was before. And.

looking back on it, I I don't think I. could have articulated that 20 years. ago, but it's what I felt. A lot of that. for me back then was coming from a place. of fear. I didn't have a lot of. self-confidence in myself, in my career. So, I was like, I need to save to. prepare for when this all comes crashing. down. Mhm. >> And even though it didn't come crashing. down, I'm so glad that I did it because. I' I've had a sense of financial. security and I've had a sense of. independence financially since I was in. my early 20s. Not because I had saved a. ton, I hadn't, but any amount that I.

saved, I I viewed as like the cushion. that that gave me a much higher sense of. confidence that if or when things go. wrong, I'm not going to be flailing. I'm. gonna have some cushion to fall back on. And what is this this spectrum? Uh what. are the stages of this spectrum? >> So let's start at the very bottom. You're homeless. You're panhandling. Reliant on the kindness of strangers. As. you go up from there, you can be. completely reliant on your boss in a job. that you don't like. Now that's that's. that's a that's another low level. As.

you go up from there, you have look, I. am I'm relying on my job. I'm relying on. my on my paycheck, but I probably have. some opportunities. I could go work at. another job. I could I could choose to. work here. I could choose to work there. And then you go from there is like, yo, I I like my job and I have some savings. So if I lost this job, I can fall back. onto it from there. You can go up from. there to have you can live where you. want. You can work where you want. You. can change fields. You can you can go. and you can do a completely different. job. You can take two months off and. travel if you wanted to. Like you're. working your way up all the way to the.

highest level of financial independence, which is I don't need to work anymore. I've saved enough and I can I can I can. wake up every morning and do whatever I. would like to do. That's obviously an. aspiration that for most people will. never be reached until they're maybe in. their, you know, 70s and they're. retiring and they have social security. and some other savings from there. But. for most people, like a good level of. independence as a good goal is enough. savings so that if you lost your job, if. your car broke down, if you needed to. replace the roof on your house, you.

would be able to do it without losing. that much sleep. That is a realistic. level that I think almost anyone can. achieve. based on everything you know. about money if I want to get to that. highest level of complete financial. freedom, what what what's like the the. five things that I should be thinking. about at just a sort of a very simple. level, you know, cuz so many people. listening right now think, you know, my. goal in life isn't to become a. billionaire or a tens of millionaire. My. goal in life is just to get to that. point of freedom as soon as I can. Yeah. >> Where I can start calling the shots. And. there's there was someone who I was.

speaking to the other day and said that. there's this internet movement of kids. who are trying to get what do they call. it it's like they're trying to get to. the point where they can retire early. >> fire something. >> financial independence retire early that. >> y. >> y. >> like how do I get how do I get there. >> the first thing that I think that's most. important this is the first and the last. thing this is the most important part is. that all wealth your feeling of wealth. is what you have minus what you want and. it's so easy to ignore the latter I talk. about in the book my my late.

grandmother-in-law, my wife's. grandmother, passed away a couple years. ago. For 30 years, she lived off of. nothing but 17 or $1,800 a month in. social security. Not a lot of money by. most accounts, very little money. But. she didn't want anything more. She did. she if she made $1,700 a month, she did. not want $1,700 in one in $1. She was. perfectly happy. She she found all of. her happiness working in her garden, going for walks, watching the birds, watching the sunrise, watching the. sunset, talking to her friends, hanging. out with her family. But if you asked.

her, you said, "You only make $7,700 a. month. You're broke. Doesn't that make. you unhappy?" She'd be like, "What?". Like, "Do you think having more money. makes the sunset more beautiful? You. think having more money makes going for. a walk more pleasant?" And I'm not. saying you should live like you should. be content with that amount of money, but the point is like, she was content. She was totally content. And it was her. choice. And I think she was happier. financially than some billionaires. because there's a lot of billionaires. who have a billion dollars but they want. two. They have two billion but they want.

four. One of the things is that. happiness might be the wrong word here. The word that people want is content. When you sit here and daydream about. having the bigger mansion, what you're. actually doing is you're imagining. yourself in the mansion being content. with it. You imagine yourself sitting in. that house and saying, "I don't want. anything more than this." The feeling. that we are aspiring to is just being. content. Happiness is always like a 30-. secondond emotion. It's like laughter. Like if I tell you a funny joke, you'll. laugh for 30 seconds and then and it's. over. Like very few times in life are.

you happy for more than a couple minutes. at a time. But what you want that is. like a durable emotion is being content. Just saying like I'm good. I'm good with. this. I don't want anything more. >> I interviewed Dr. Anna LMK and she's. like the the uh the scientist who's most. uh renowned for talking about and. writing about dopamine. >> Yeah. >> And I was wondering how much do the. molecule dopamine dovetailes into this. because I think one of the things she. said to me was that dopamine is the. chemical for wanting. Yeah. >> And people have I think mistaken it for. being the the pleasure.

>> happiness. Yeah. Happiness hormone. >> It's it's more more. It's like you want. more. And she told me this crazy study. about this rat where they removed the. dopamine receptor from its brain so it. couldn't produce dopamine and then they. put food 2 in from its mouth and the rat. starved to death because it it it and. that I've always thought about that is. like okay so that's what dopamine is. It's the motivation to go get to go get. to want to pursue. What role is dopamine. playing here? >> It's huge and that's actually a good. realization to be like a lot of this is.

not something you can solve on a. spreadsheet. It's not something you can. solve with a formula. It's chemicals in. your brain. And obviously some people. are going to be more susceptible to that. than others. I think my. grandmother-in-law. just had for whatever it was was was. wired differently than most people. Part. of that was like she was a product of. the Great Depress. She grew up during. the Great Depression, which probably. like lowered her expectations. She never. had social media and whatnot. But of. course, I think some people are wired. differently than others for a level of. contentment. But I think just there's a. big thing in psychiatry where diagnosing.

a mental illness is sometimes more. important than the treatment. If you. just get a diagnosis of like, oh, you're. ADHD, whatever it is, just knowing just. like the the fact that you can stop. questioning, why am I having these. thoughts? You can you can understand why. you have those thoughts is more. important than the treatment sometimes. And I think that's true here. If if you. it's easier said than done to completely. control your desires, but just knowing. why you're doing it and realizing that. it's probably not going to give you the. happiness that you want, that it's just. like any addiction that the more you. chase it, the further away it's going to.

get, >> can go [clears throat] a big ways. And. so for me myself, there's all the time. there are moments where I'm like, "Oh, I. I should I I should get that car. Maybe. I should get a bigger house." I have. those feelings daily. So the feelings. don't go away. But I think I'm better. now than I've been in the past at. reminding myself of like it's not going. to make you happier. You know that. You've tried this before. You've tried. it before and it didn't make you happy. What is going to make you happy is. spending time with your kids, having a. good relationship with your wife and. your own physical health and laughing. with your friends and having good times.

with people who you enjoy. You know. that's going to make you happy. And you. know that's not. And I have to remind. myself because it's not intuitive. And I. have dopamine that tells me you should. want more and more more and more and. more. So, you never get over it, but I. think once you've diagnosed the problem, it becomes easier at just like spotting. that emotion and realizing that it's. telling you a story that's probably not. true. >> I wonder if you I could trade the. addiction cuz you, you know, you. referred to it there as being an. addiction. If it's a dopamine equation, could I not shift my addiction to. something more productive and would that.

mean that my spending would get better? So actually when I think about me as 18. years old and having that horrific. spending problem, maybe I just shifted. the the thing that gave me dopamine to. like building businesses or to. podcasting or to writing books or to. being a great dad. I don't know. Do you. know? >> I think it's probably true that. everybody without exception is addicted. to something and it's just harnessing. that that process for whatever it might. be. So some people are addicted to my. wife's addicted to gardening, let's say. She couldn't care less about about.

investing or spending money on a nice. she could not care less about her car or. my car or your car. But if you have a. good gardener, if you you have a pretty. garden, she's she's all over this. So, everybody's got their thing and it's. just like, can you harness that for. productivity? >> I think a lot of like extremely. successful people are people who took. their their natural addiction and. harnessed it for productivity into their. business. >> And that's that's why they're so. successful. this became obsessed with. one thing and it's it's a good question. of whether we can actually guide that.

addiction or if it's just kind of. pre-wired in itself. I think it's true. for myself, someone who's written books. about money for 20 years, thought about. money for 20 years. My mom tells a story. that when I was three, I would sit there. and count pennies. I don't want to count. seashells. I don't want to count cards. I don't want to count rocks. I want to. count money. And so I think I've always. had this disposition towards being. fascinated with money. >> Why? >> I don't know because I did it when I was. three. I did it before I could even. think through it. But I think everyone.

has their little thing. It's always been. fascinating to me. I don't think I'm. obsessed with money. I don't think it. controls my life. But I've had to go out. of my way to have a a healthier. relationship with it. But I think it's. definitely been true that the reason. that I've found myself in this career is. that it's always been my thing. And I. think everybody has that thing in their. life. You know, people talk about. addictive personalities and uh I was. reflecting one of my best friends who. was an alcoholic, had a problem with. gambling, then had a problem with. eating, then got obsessed with marathons. and he he traded each one of those.

things for the next thing. So now he's. like obsessed with health and fitness. And so I was when I was thinking about. people that are struggling with money. problems and even my own historical. struggle with money, I I think I. probably just traded it for something. And actually, I'm kind of happy about. that because I traded it for a better. addiction, one that was productive. >> Your career? >> My career and um. >> I guess doing this. I'm pretty addicted. to doing this, >> right? And but I think. >> makes me happier than the plasma screen. >> It's exactly. Yeah. >> I think what's true about a money.

addiction is that it tends to be the. classic addiction of like you tell. yourself if only I get one more hit, so. to speak, then I'll be satiated. Then. then then that'll be enough. And the. answer is like, no, it absolutely will. not. I'll tell you like a a personal. thing. I don't think this is true, but. it made me laugh. My wife and I bought a. new house about a year ago. It's an. awesome house. We love it. It's great. And my brother-in-law came over the. other day and he goes, "You know, you're. only going to live here for 2 years. before you want to buy a bigger house.". And I had to laugh cuz I'm like, "God, like I I I don't think that's true. I.

think we're going to live here for a. while, but I know what you're saying is. right. That's the natural guide towards. it." that when we bought the house, it. was like, "Oh, this is going to be so. great. Can you imagine? We're going to. get to do this and get to do that and we. have these neighbors, whatnot, and you. become accustomed to that very quickly. and then your gaze shifts a little bit. higher. You're like, "Yeah, but look at. that house over there. That one's nicer, isn't it?" That's always the natural. thing. And that's dopamine at work. That. is dopamine purely at work. Because the. truth is, our previous house was was.

great. And our previous house used to be. our dream. And dopamine exists when. there's a when there's a gap between. where you are and where you want to be. with something. And when that gap. closes, they often refer to that as the. arrival fallacy. >> Yeah. Right. >> Which is a really kind of what you're. describing. >> You tell yourself once I get there, then. I'll be then I'll be good. Then that's. enough. And it's a fallacy because you. know that's not true. As soon as you get. to that whatever that mountain top is, there's another mountain above it. It. pushes you in a way that is not easy. Like nobody should pretend that you can.

just go do this today. But it pushes you. into appreciating what you have now and. finding your joy, finding your happiness. through other things that don't have the. arrival fallacy. Never have as I as a. parent have I said, "Oh, if only I had. one more kid." Then then that would be. great. There's no there's really no. arrival fallacy for kids. You just kind. of be like this. Like I I I just. appreciate being around you. I just. appreciate all the And if anything, it's. the opposite. It's you look back and. you're like, "Oh, I I I miss when you.

were younger." It was like, "Oh, I I'm. It's It's sad how fast you're growing. up." If if anything, rather than like. looking ahead and being like, "Oh, it's. going to be better then." You're looking. back and you're like, "Ah, I wish I had. appreciated that phase a little bit. more.". >> When you talked about um one of the ways. to get to early retirement and to live a. better life is to want what you have um. and basically want less things. I go. back and forward a lot with this idea. because there's like the monks who say. that like happiness is not wanting. something and then there's like the.

reality of life where striving for. things seems to make me happy and. everybody describes the journey as being. the most enjoyable part. >> That's your purpose. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, like what what how do. how do I make sense of this? That like. the monks are telling me that not to. want anything cuz that's going to make. me frustrated and unsatisfied. And then. my lived experience is striving for. things with a group of people makes me. seems to make me happy. >> I think there's a there's a difference. It's a subtle difference, but between. pursuing something that you genuinely. enjoy doing, which for you is this and.

your [clears throat] your business and. whatnot, >> versus being addicted to something that. chasing something that you don't have. yet. And so I imagine, you can correct. me if I'm wrong, but I imagine when. you're doing this, you don't tell. yourself, I need to work harder so that. one day the podcast can be up here. >> I [clears throat] I imagine, tell me if. I'm wrong, but I imagine you come to. work every day and you're like, I I like. doing this today. I like today. I. [clears throat] liked yesterday. I'm. going to like tomorrow. And so you're. not chasing a false goal. You just. actually enjoy doing it. >> Do you know what? It's a weird thing. because it's it's uh I'm going to be.

honest because it's the only useful. position to take. It's it's a weird. combination of both. So I say like it's. important for us to have some like goal. >> but also live in the in in the total. understanding that the goal doesn't. actually matter. >> And it's this weird dichotomy I live in. like if we become the biggest podcast in. the world like set that as a goal. because it gives [clears throat] us. something to. >> chase. I get that. >> KPI and then like put time frames.

against and get excited by and focus on. >> but then also living in the total. realization that it's not going to. matter at all. Nothing is going to. change in my life. Zilch, what am I. going to get? A better black shirt. It's. like, [laughter] do you know, you know. what I mean? >> But here's the truth. The reason that we. live in a world with a ton of technology. and a ton of great businesses and great. medicine, whatnot, is because virtually. everybody for all of human history has. woken up every morning and said, "It's. not enough. I need more." That's the. fuel of progress. And I don't want to. live in a world where everyone wakes up.

and says, "I have all I need." Because. then progress would stop that day. We. probably start declining that day. >> And so there is a paradox here of like. as a whole society, I'm grateful and you. should be grateful that people wake up. unfulfilled. >> because we live in a way better world. today than existed 100 or 200 years ago. because of that. And the richest people. in the world who I think are by and. large tortured psychologically have. created amazing technology that you and. I benefit from. And the reason we're.

doing this podcast is because people. before us who were way wealthier than. you and I woke up in the morning and. said this is not enough. Bill Gates, Jeff Bezos, all those people, Elon Musk, Mark Zuckerberg, they woke up and said, "I don't care if I have a hundred. billion dollars. It's not enough. I need. I need to create better technology." And. that's great. We benefit from that. And. so there is a paradox here that what is. all and that will never change that will. never change. So there's a paradox that. like the more the better society becomes. I think like it's always going to be the.

case that as a whole society we're going. to have a level of angst and anxiety and. not be satisfied and say it's not. enough. At the individual level though I. think you can recognize that game and. contextualize it within your own life. and say like look. I want more money. I I want to sell more. books and have a better career. I want. to save more money. I also have to go so. far out of my way to put it into context. and say none of it's going to matter. unless I have a higher purpose beyond. that money. So, I think you can aspire.

for more and still go out of your way to. realize what the expectations game is. Even if you can't perfectly control it, it's similar to like I want to eat a. good diet. Of course, I want to eat. healthy food. I'm not going to pretend. for a second that I don't want Oreos and. ice cream. are great and they're always. going to taste great. And so I'm never. going to get to a point where I say, "I. don't want a nicer house." I'm I'm a. human and and so are you and so is. everyone else. You're always going to. have those feelings. But you can. recognize the game. You can recognize. the voice that's talking to you and.

realize when that voice lies to you and. when it's telling you a story that is. either false or just a little bit. incomplete. I think if you had to like. say who is the happiest person in the. world on average, not like naming a. person, but if you had to describe the. life of like who's the happiest person. out there, my guess is it's probably. something close to a a middle-ass family. that lives in a three-bedroom house and. has a a 5-year-old car, but they have an. amazing marriage, tons of friends,

they're in good health, but they are by. any other statistic ordinary. and at the. end of their life more than the people. who are very very successful that. ordinary family is going to look back. when they're on their deathbed when. they're 95 years old and be like that. was good. >> that was a good time. >> do you think um this is a very strange. question to ask but do you think I could. make myself like that. >> no. here's the truth I think on the nature. nurture spectrum. most of what we believe and the feelings.

that we have is forged at conception and. it's just we're just wired that Okay. And there's not much we can do about it. Some people have different aspirations. Elon Musk was born wired very. differently than you and I. And there's. nothing we can do about that. So, we are. who we are, but I think we can put those. feelings into a better context. Even if. we can't control having those feelings, we can choose we can put tell ourselves. a more complete story about why we're. having those feelings and what those. aspirations will actually do to our. happiness. So on this point of how to.

retire early, the first one was about. managing what you want. Is there. anything else there that if if I'm. trying to increase the probability that. I get to retire early, um I should know. in terms of tactics and strategies. >> Well, one of the things, this is a. little bit different than than the. question that you asked, but one of the. things that's important is that a lot of. the people who do retire early, who they. tell themselves, I'm going to save so. much money, I'm going to retire when I'm. 32 and then life's going to be great. What actually happens is they retire at. 32 and six months later they're bored. out of their mind and they realize that.

like what actually makes you happy is. purpose. And for a lot of people their. purpose can be their career or they. realize they had this idea that when. they retired it was just going to be a. great life. But the truth is all of. their friends are working and don't have. time to go play golf with them on. Tuesday afternoon. And so a lot of those. people who retire early end up going. back. they realized it was not what it. was meant what it was made out to be. because they had if the the formula is. independence plus purpose they gained. independence but they kind of lost their. purpose and then the for and so it was. incomplete they didn't get what they.

wanted. >> what about passive income people talk a. lot about passive income I had a friend. DM me the other day and say Steve I've. got some debts etc but if I could just. figure out a way to create some passive. income then that should solve the. problem and this term passive income has. become like. >> completely overused because for example. a lot of people when they talk about. passive income They're like, "Oh, I'm. going to own real estate. I'm going to. have some rentals and that's passive. income." If you think owning a rental. property is passive income, you've never. owned a rental property because there's. nothing passive about it. It is a. constant chain of broken toilets and.

leaky roofs and tenants who don't pay. you on time. And there's nothing. passive. That's a full-time job doing. that. And so, I heard someone say this. recently that there's two ways to get. wealthier. You can sacrifice more or you. can want less and that's it. and gain. passive income is not part of that. equation because. >> what's the first one? Sacrifice more. >> Sacrifice more. >> What does that mean? >> Work harder. Work work in a job that is. that has a lot of downsides that might. stress you out and requires you to wake. up early and go to work and do some.

things that you don't want to do and. spend time away from your kids in a way. that you don't want to do. Sacrifice. more or want less. Those are your two. choices. And I think that's important in. the passive income debate because I I I. don't think there's but there by and. large is not a thing of passive income. Even if you're just like, you know, you. put your money in a in a savings account. that pays 3% interest. Well, you had to. sacrifice to earn that money. >> and to save that money and to delay the. gratification of that money. I I I.

really think it's an ironclad formula. Sacrifice more or want less. Those are. your two options. >> It's not nice. That's true. >> People want, you know, tell me which. crypto to [laughter]. >> right. >> to invest in to get that. >> Of course, everyone's always going to. want the easy answer. Just like for. health, >> the answer is eat a better diet and. exercise. Nobody wants that. They just. say get what's the what's the secret. potion? What's the secret formula? And. maybe now we have OMI. So maybe now we. have it's closer to a to a secret. formula. But the truth is what's the. secret to better health? Sacrifice more.

because working out and lifting weights. and running is a sacrifice. It's not. fun. It hurts. That's why it's good. Or. want less. Be happier with your. imperfect body. I mean, I think that's a. great analogy between health and and. wealth. >> Often the difference between a company. succeeding or failing isn't down to its. product or strategy. It's down to the. people on the inside. After all, the. definition of the word company is group. of people. And some of the best. companies in the world have been largely. built by a players. Because I'll let you.

in on a little secret. When you hire an. A player, they go on to hire more A. players. and it perpetuates. The. challenge is finding those first few A. players. I found the majority of mine on. LinkedIn who are a sponsor of this show. LinkedIn provides talent I could not. find anywhere else. Talent with the. necessary skills and culture fit that. I'm looking for. Whenever I've paid to. promote a role on LinkedIn, I've been. able to hire faster and of course. better. Their data supports this, too. You'll actually get three times more. qualified applicants than if you posted.

the same role for free. So, if you're. trying to build something truly great, you can get started by posting a job for. free by visiting linkedin.com/doac. That's linkedin.com/dac. and you can post your role for free. there. Terms and conditions of course. apply. How much do I need to understand. what's going on in the wider world and. the economy in order to understand my. own spending behaviors? What I should. spend on, how to get wealthy, how to. save? Is it important to have any. understanding around the macro? Because.

most people that listen to this show. will probably hear these terms being. spouted out on by political commentators. like the Federal Reserve, interest. rates, >> tariffs, etc. And. should I understand any of this? Should. does any of it really impact me in a way. that matters to me and my family? >> I don't think it's necessary. And you. could point to people I've written about. in my books who had no financial. education, no training, did not read the. Wall Street Journal, could not tell you. how the Federal Reserve works, but they. had control of their psychology, control.

of their emotions, they they worked. hard, they saved their money, they. invested it, and that that's all you. need. They you you you so the answer is. you don't need to know how this works. Just in the same way that in order to be. healthy, you don't need a PhD in. biology. You don't need to understand. how cell division works in order to be. in good shape. And I think it's the same. for the economy. And it can actually. backfire for a lot of people that once. they start reading the Wall Street. Journal and learning a bit about. finance, it increases their confidence. more than their ability. So they're. like, "Oh, like I read the Wall Street.

Journal. I should go day trade crypto. now. >> because I read a thing that teaches me. how the Federal Reserve works. So now. like I'm going to It increases your. confidence more than your skill.". >> That's so interesting. And so I I I. think it's important to be an informed. citizen and the Federal Reserve impacts. your life and tariffs impact your life. So it's important to have some baseline. understanding, but I think that's more. about being an informed citizen and. informed voter than it is having. financial skill. >> Of all of my best friends, there's like. five or six of them, the one that's most.

catch cash is the one that knows the. least about I think he's the most rich. period to be honest. He's the one that. knows the least about finance and he. knows the least about investing. He. knows the least about crypto. >> Well, what's the meme of like the the. the tail spectrum of like the poor. person drives a Toyota, the middle. person has a Porsche, a BMW, a Mercedes, and the rich person goes back to Toyota. of like it's like whether you are very. uneducated or extremely wise, you tend. to end up, >> oh, this one. Okay. And so I I think I.

think it it does tend to be the truth. that the people who do the best. financially either have like no. financial education or extreme financial. education. And it's a person in the. middle that has their confidence is. increased much faster than their. ability. And they're like, "Oh, no, no. I I read this thing on Reddit that. taught me about day trading. So now I'm. going to go bet my entire net worth on. this company I've never heard of.". >> So funny. But so what is it that the the. person on the left and right side of the. spectrum are both doing that is the same.

here? So for anyone that can't see, I'll. put it up on the screen, but it just. shows the bottom axis says net worth. And it basically says that people with. low net worth buy a Toyota, people with. like in the middle, that sort of middle. percentage by Lamborghinis and Porsches. and Jaguars, and then people with. extremely high net worths buy Toyotas. And obviously it's it's metaphor. It's. not it's not it's not exactly perfectly. true, but I think people like a lot of. comedy you see it like it's funny. because people are like, "Yes, that's. true. That's how it works." I think a.

lot of it is like the richer you become, you realize that the big house and the. fancy car didn't do anything for you. It. did. It didn't give you what you thought. it was going to give you. And then so. you're like, "Look, I'm just going to go. back to utility." Like status didn't do. it for me, so I'm going to go back to. utility. It can also be the case that if. you're successful and rich, you can gain. your admiration and your attention. through what the business that you built. or the intelligence that you have or the.

the friendship that you can offer others. and therefore your desire to be like. look at my car look how cool my car is. just goes down from there. >> The way I also interpret it is that when. you're when you don't have much money or. when you don't have a huge financial. understanding like my friend, you end up. playing the really boring money games. Yeah. >> And when you have a huge financial. understanding, you probably also spend a. lot of time playing the boring money. games. And by boring money games, I mean. index funds. >> Yeah. >> And the S&P 500 versus like crypto. >> Yeah. I think you'll see that in.

investing that like the absolute lay. person will invest in index funds. And. the extremely experienced Wall Street. veteran will invest in index funds as. well. And it's a person in the middle. that just has like a little bit of. intelligence, a little bit of. experience, a little bit of information. that's trying as hard as they can to. outperform the market. >> I kind of learned that from reading your. your book, The Psychology of Money, because I I think like many people. thought there was some trick or hack. that this book was going to teach me to.

figure out how to trade coins at the. right time or to like do forex trading. or whatever. But ultimately the book, if. there was one overarching lesson it. taught me was that like patience and uh. more boring investing is is the way to. get to build my wealth over the long. term and that like all other strategies. have. hidden trade-offs which lead you to. being broke. Yeah, I think there's a. truth too that like there's a there's an. optimal level of intelligence that you.

want for investing where you want to be. smart enough to understand the basics. but not so smart that the basics bore. you. And a lot of people get so smart. that they're like look index funds. compound interest like I'm putting like. it's too boring. Like I I need something. really complex to satisfy the. intelligence that I have. And I I think. there's a sweet spot where like for me. I'm just like ah index funds and. compound interest like that's that's. kind of as high as my intelligence goes. here. >> But I [clears throat] think the truth is. that that is the best position to be in.

Smart enough to understand the basics. but not so smart that they become boring. to you because once they're boring to. you, you're just like ah sweep those. away. Let's try to pull some more levers. here. >> What is going on in the world at the. moment Morgan? There's um it feels like. people are more divided than ever before. and I feel like a lot of these subjects. we talk about are somewhat. interconnected. It feels like there's a. rise in inequality. You probably know. the numbers better than I do. Um I mean. there's a graph in front of you there. which shows I think it's is it wage.

growth? >> Yes, monthly wage growth. >> Monthly wage from. >> about 25 years. >> and it appears to be going down. >> Well, but this is growth. So in any. given year, even if the growth is 2%, that's 2% higher than the previous year. So this is not wages over time. Now, it. is true that if you look over a 25-year. period and you took the average American. family, not everybody, but the median, >> that their wages adjusted for inflation. have gone up. Not not up as much as. people would want over 25 years, but. that that they are better off than they.

were 25 years ago. What is also true is. that the average median family would. probably disagree with that statement. even if it is true statistically for. several reasons. One of which is their. expectations have gone up over the last. 25 years. The other is even if you're. looking at average wages. average and when we talk about these. statistics does not refer to any. specific family. This is just a. statistical number. Everyone spends. their money differently. So, if I told. you, "Hey, average family, you're richer.

than you were in the year 2000." And. they're like, "Yeah, but I'm trying to. put my kids through college, and have. you seen the price of college?" And. like, yeah, that might be true because. the price of TVs has gone down, but have. you seen the price of rent and housing? Like, at the individual level, these. statistics don't really mean that much. and never have. I think a lot of. economists get into a problem with that. when they're like, "Well, statistically, X, Y, and Z has happened." But ignoring. the psychology and the individuality of. like what's happening actually on the. ground in people's heads and how they.

spend their money, there's a there's. just endless amount of nuance in here. And so I think it's it's always been. true that we live in a world where over. long periods of time there's good. economic growth. We become wealthier. We. be we have bigger better things. We have. more income. We have better medicine. It's equally true too that like there is. always something legitimate to complain. about and it's legitimate to complain. about. It's not just like oh you should. be more grateful. It's a real thing. And. so when I look at a graph like this.

actually what like if I was thinking. just like with my math head I'd be like. oh there's been quite a bit of growth. over the last 25 years. Like the growth. has been gone up and down but it's. growth. You know never in this chart is. growth below zero. I guess the question. there is are rich people getting richer. and are the poor getting poorer? >> It depends. I mean it's at the indiv are. rich are the rich getting richer? Yes. Are the poor getting poorer? Statistically no. >> Even adjusted for inflation.

>> I mean it it depends what period we're. talking about here. There was about a 20. or 30 year period where the answer was. unequivocally yes. There was an. interesting trend over the last 10 years. where in percentage terms the the group. of of wage earners who had the highest. percentage growth were actually the low. wage. That was true for two or three. years after COVID where if you were a. low if you were a minimum wage worker. those were in percentage terms great. years for you for getting wages. It's. tapered off. So I the answer to your.

question is the rich are getting richer. The poor, I think, are treading water by. and large. There's there's always people. who are doing differently than that. But. when one group of society is getting. richer, treading water feels like you're. falling. And the the specifics of how. people spend their money, so even if on. average adjusted for inflation, their. wages are flat. But if your rent. skyrocketed or you're trying to send. your kids through college or you have a. long commute and you got to put gas in. your tank, at the individual level,

things can feel very very different from. what the statistics show. >> And what role do you think this sort of. wealth inequality that is widening. between the very very top and everybody. else is playing in everything that we're. seeing play out at the moment? Because. in the UK, it's almost like there's. we're on like the verge of riots it. seems. And I think last last month there. was millions of people in London. protesting against immigrants coming. over on boats and society becoming more. multicultural. I'm so fascinated by this.

subject because you know earlier on we. said that unless you have immigration in. the western world you have population. decline and if you have. >> and population decline sucks. >> because you have a hit on GDP. >> the biggest problem right now throughout. a lot of the world at least one of the. biggest perceived problems is. immigration. >> and the same is playing out in the. United States if I go on X although I. know I know what X is um it's people. maybe it's just my algorithm but it's. people attacking immigrants and. immigration and people that are brown. and black and whatever else it might be. I'm wondering how all of this is. intertwined and and if it if it is.

connected at all in your view. >> I think as a amateur student of history. across cultures all over the place all. through history what you want to avoid. more than anything in society is when. probably a third of the population wakes. up every morning and says this isn't. working. That's the point at which it's. gonna collapse from there is when enough. people wake up in the morning and just. have this feeling of like whatever this. is, it's not working out for me. You. want to avoid that part. And so, like,

look, I'm a I tend to be a a free. markets guy. I'm a capitalist. I think. people should be able to become very. wealthy, etc., etc. You also don't want. to get to a point where people become so. wealthy that a big chunk of society just. wakes up every morning and says, "Fuck. this. This is not this is not going to. work out for me." And I think we've got. we've we're either there or precariously. close to there. In a lot of areas in the. world, social media, that's always been. the case. And social media makes it 100. times worse than it's ever been. >> Mhm. >> For example, you and I are recording. this a day after Charlie Kirk was.

assassinated yesterday. And there were who knows what number. percentage it was, but I think it was. not hard on social media to find people. who were celebrating it yesterday. Now, when Martin Luther King was. assassinated, did those people exist too. who celebrated assassination? Of course. But because of social media, by and. large, you did not hear from them unless. you were part of that group. Whereas. today, virtually everybody yesterday saw. people celebrating Charlie Kirk's.

assassination. And so, even if those. feelings existed in the past, they're. much more apparent today. You see them. today in a way that that you did not. before. So, because of that, it's easy. to say we're more divided today. We're. more extreme today. were more. pessimistic than they today. I think the. nuance is that's not actually true. You're just more aware of it. That those. feelings always existed. They existed in. the 1990s. They existed in the 1950s. It. was just much easier to contain those. And for the average citizen who got. their information from one newspaper,

one evening news program to feel like. things were much more stable and in. control and that people were much more. uniform in their opinions than they. actually were. Before we start. recording, we were talking about the. Charlie Kirk shooting and how. social media's ability to dehumanize. other people at a probably a faster rate. than history would have done it is. pretty remarkable. And you see a lot of. that. You see a lot of it taking place. on both sides. I think both sides. describe each other as being like.

animals and inhumane. and one side's. calling the other side Nazis and then. the other side is calling the other side. referring to them in in animal terms. because of maybe the color of their skin. or their behavior. We saw a lot of that. when the that heinous individual killed. the young lady on the on the the train. in in America. >> and the way look this person is the. [ __ ] this worst thing on planet. earth. Um but the language was very.

it was putting that person in a group of. other people. >> Yes. >> And then making the whole group a pack. of animals. >> Right. Because in that situation too, we. talked about this earlier. I I don't. know that individual's name doesn't. matter, but no one refers to him by his. name. It's them. It's they. And that. once you dehumanize any group of people. like that, and this has been the case. for all of human history, that 99.9% of. people cannot kill another human, but. they're perfectly fine killing them. They that group once you dehumanize, you.

can do anything. And at the at a much. lower level, everyone realizes this with. road rage. I've had road rage. The. person cut me off. Son of a [ __ ]. Honor, flip. I I I don't I don't get too. extreme with it. But in things I would. never do eye to eye. But once I'm. looking at a car, then it's it's there's. no human there. And my ability to have a. level of anger is so much higher than it. would be if we were just looking eye to. eye. I had this experience a couple. years ago where I was pulling into a gas. station and I inadvertently cut somebody. off. It was an accident, but I totally.

cut them off and he honked and threw up. his middle finger at me. And um we since. we pulled into the same gas station, we. were now like eye to eye and I walked. over to him and I think he thought I was. like coming to like confront him and I. put up my hands. I said, "I just want to. apologize. I didn't I didn't mean to cut. you off. I'm so sorry. I did." It was. not on purpose. And he I think he was so. surprised and he was like, "Wow, thank. you. Thanks for like and we had this. moment of like almost hugging of just. like a I'm so like I hope hope you have.

a great day." It was one of those of. like once in the moment when it was you. strip the humanity off it when it was. two cars each other both of us were like. [ __ ] you once we looked eye to eye it. was like oh brother like it's okay it's. okay I think that was just like for me. that was an individual example of what. happens at society when you strip the. humanity off it we're capable of so much. anger and hate eye to eye we're like oh. that's all good and I think all of us. know somebody who we disagree with. politically regardless of what it might. be and it's easy to be like oh person's.

an idiot. They're stupid. They're. ill-informed. And actually, if you sit. down and talk to them, you're like, "Ah, look, we might have some disagreements. here, but it's all good. Cheers. Let's. have a good night." Like, eye to eye, the vast majority of people get along. and get together. But social media has. turned all of life into road rage. >> Gosh. Yeah. I mean, you know that more. starkly than anyone as a podcaster. because I sit here with everybody of all. political opinions, extreme left, you. know, pretty extreme right. And at this. table, we get along, >> right? We even off camera we get along.

>> I [laughter] think so many people have. said this in the last 24 hours about. Charlie Kirk. >> One of the most common phrases I've. heard was I didn't agree with everything. he said, but at least he was brave. enough to have a conversation with. people who he disagreed with. That was. what he did by and large was going into. schools and being like, I know you. disagree with me. Let's talk. >> And and he turned it from road rage into. a conversation between people. And even. if you disagreed with him, >> I think he did it very right in that. sense. And I think that's what's why. people from all over the spectrum are.

devastated in the last 24 hours. It was. like he was one of the people who was. doing it right. Even when you disagreed. with them, he was having a conversation. face to face and bringing people. together. >> I think that absolutely hits the nail on. the head which is I think, you know, there's things that I absolutely don't. agree with him on. But I actually think. that's just completely beside the point. because I want to live in a world where. there's people that I disagree with. Like I actually wouldn't choose the. world where everyone I encountered. agreed with my opinions. There would be. no intellectual growth. There'd be no. understanding. there been no real. progress. Um, but also as you've.

highlighted the way that Charlie Kirk. went about it was he would went to. Oxford University and went on the. formalized debate panel against. >> hi in an office and a pine on social. media. He went face to face and said I. know you disagree with me. >> Let's have a Yeah. And I'll listen to. what you He wasn't interrupting people. all the time. He's hearing out their. points and he was making. >> respectful about it. And what is missing. from all political discourse today, it's. that. It's I know you disagree, but. let's talk and let's try to be. respectful about it. >> And I can't think of [clears throat]. anyone.

on either side who who did that as. consistently as he did, >> even if I disagree with him. The idea that we're only going to talk. to people who we agree with is what. causes all the problems. >> I don't understand these [ __ ] people. I don't understand. It's much more. comfortable. to surround yourself with people who. agree with you than to accept the nuance. of life. And this is the problem with a. lot of political media is that it. creates much better content when people.

say this is right, this is wrong, he's. right, he's wrong, to make it very. explicit, binary, black and white, than. it is to accept the truth, which is like. it's complicated. >> I think I was like traumatized yesterday. when I watched that when I saw the video. of him being shot. I think it was this. weird like deep sense of like like uh. I've not been able to articulate what it. is, but it was I don't know Charlie. Kirk. I've never met him. There was a. time when, you know, we were potentially. going to have him on the show and we. were trying to figure out like, you.

know, who to who to have here with him. because he's such an unbelievable. debater that he would run [ __ ] rings. around me. >> Yeah. >> I was like, who can you put to. >> You'd be like you'd be like, fine, I'm. conservative. [laughter]. >> Yeah. But there was something really. surprising in how I felt when I when I. both heard the news and saw um him being. shot. This young guy, family person who. was out debating, who had ideas that. many people disagreed with, but was in a. forum where he was having them. challenged, could be executed in public. on live stream in a way that his.

children are going to watch that video. when they grow up, probably multiple. times. And I was like, "Oh god, what?". Yeah. What does this say about the. society we live in and where we're. heading? You know, I know guns play a. huge role in this and we have to. acknowledge that because it's very very. unlikely that could have happened in the. UK because no, we don't have guns there. >> Yeah. >> So, you could have thrown a rock or. something, but you couldn't have killed. the guy. >> But it it's almost a it feels like a. crescendo of the moment. Yeah. >> Where division and algorithms and now. that, you know, X has gone a certain way. and other platforms are going certain.

ways. And if you look at the stats, there's more social networks now that. have more than 20 million active users. than at any time in human history. It's. gone up by 50% in recent times, which. means we're becoming more splintered. And then if you if you understand the. commercial models of these algorithms, their commercial model is dependent on. you spending more time there. So, how do. I get you to spend more time there? Well, I give you more of the things that. are going to trigger your amydala, which. is, you know, your fear senses and and. uh the things that are going to drive, you know, drive you into rage and debate. and engagement and these and sharing.

things. And so, I don't know. I I wonder. if there's a way back from here. I have. a an optimistic view and this is not a. forecast because I don't have 100% faith. in this. >> but there are so many endless examples. in history when people discount how. powerful cycle cycles can be and so my. optimistic my hope it's not even a. forecast it's a hope is that 15 or 20. years from now we look back at this era. as when things bottomed politically from.

which we grew out of we improved and. we're going to look back and be like, man, the the 2020s were so bad and we. are so divided, but that was also a. bottom that we came out of, like a. generational bottom. And that sounds. crazy today, but that's always been the. case. If you and I were talking about. the economy in the 1930s, it would have. been preposterous, completely insane to. say the 1950s are going to be the. greatest, most unbound prosperity, middle class prosperity we're ever going. to have. That would have seemed insane.

If this was the 1970s and we just had a. raft of political assassinations in the. 60s, John F. Kennedy, Martin Luther. King, Robert F. Kennedy, and then. Richard Nixon uh is impeached and. resigned for Watergate, it would have. been completely insane for you and I to. say, "Hey, do you know what? The 80s and. 90s are going to be an era of political. stability and political faith and trust. in government." Would insane like it's. always when things are the lowest that. you feel like you're never going to. recover. But if you understand how.

cyclical things can be, it's usually the. case that looking back, you're like, man, it was bad. But looking back, that. was the bottom. And I have no idea if. the bottom was yesterday or if it's. going to come 10 years from now. But I. would bet that the most likely scenario. whenever that bottom comes is that we. will look 15 or 20 years back and be. like, that was terrible. And at that. moment, everyone assumed it would go on. forever, but looking back, that was. actually a bottom. When enough people. came together and said, stop, stop. This. is this is too much. the forces that. we've gone too far in the other.

direction. We need to we need to come. around from them. It is always. impossible in real time to wrap your. head around that and to forecast it. It's only looking back that you're like, "Yes, that was the that that there was. the bottom." And you can see things. getting so bad. Trust in government is. so low. Polarization is so high. That. would not surprise me in the slightest. if we look 20 years from now and be. like, "Oh, things things got better.". >> I understand that from an economic. standpoint. I I struggle with it because. of the presence of how we like because. of the the medium in which we.

communicate now with social media. Yeah. And I was looking at the some of the. stats here and it says in 1994 only 20%. of Americans held a very unfavorable. view of the other party. By 2022 that. number has jumped to 72%. among Republicans and 63% among de. Democrats according to Pew Research. Uh. and this is particularly pronounced in. the United States. um and and the UK and. other parts of Europe. In this report, it says that social media um and also.

cable news's role has only amplified. echo chambers, making the divide sharper. and more emotional. And I I can't especially with AI in the. way. I go, well, AI is going to make. those algorithms even smarter. >> Yeah. >> At understanding exactly what to show me. to increase my engagement, therefore. increase their advertising dollars. So, I'm like, what what would be the the. mechanism in this context? I have no. statistic or even strong thing to back. this up with, but my gut tells me that. the younger generation in particular is.

going to be the one that looks at social. media and looks at AI and recognizes the. [ __ ] that can come out of it. It's. the older generation. It's the boomers. today on social media who believe. everything that they see. And I think. that tends to be where a lot of the. polarization comes from. not to blame. everything on the older generation. But. I think if you were to look at. statistically who is the most gullible. on social media of believing every post. in their feed, it's the older. generation. And it would not surprise me. if the younger generation is much more. attuned to how quickly you can be led.

astray into some [ __ ] rabbit hole. that is not reflective of how the. broader world works. I don't know if. that's true or not, but if you were to. ask me to articulate why we're going to. get around the social media bubbles, it. would be that the generations who have. been doing this the longest are going to. be the best at recognizing how dangerous. it can be. >> You're a very smart guy and you're. someone that studies has studied history. and understands, you know, you wrote the. book Same as Ever, which shows. a a guide to what doesn't change through. history and how things can often stay.

the same. So, this is a bit bit of a. peculiar question for you, but in the. wake of what happened to Charlie Kirk. yesterday, his his public murder and all. that's rising from that, what should. someone like me and you, who have public. platforms, who reach people on a daily. basis, do help? >> I think we have to remind ourselves two. things about social media. One is that. it's been designed by the smartest. people of our generation to deliver you. in your feed not the best information,

not the right information. Basically, what's going to give you the most FOMO, the most anxiety, what's going to like. pull out the starkkest reaction in you. [clears throat]. >> And the smartest people of our. generation have gone to work at Facebook. and Google and whatever and Tik Tok to. make an algorithm that's going to give. you that. That's going to give you the. the thing in your feed that's going to. make you go, "Wow, what?" Like, that's. so out. And two is that even when it's. it's not that even when it is just. people's thoughts. people go on social media to perform.

>> they go on like they are trying to give. you and I'm trying to do this on social. media as well. I don't want to give you. any random thought in my head. I'm going. to specifically give you what I think is. going to be interesting and what not. So, if we view social media as a proxy. for the real world, and I think everyone. kind of intuitively does, even if they. when you say it out loud, you're like, "No, of course it's not the real world.". But it's easy to assume that when I open. up Twitter or Facebook or Instagram, I'm. like, "I I'm just I'm just seeing a. window into the world." And you're like, "No, these are people performing for you.

and the smartest minds in the world. ordering that performance for what's. going to give you the most anxiety.". >> Are you optimistic about the the Western. economy, the US economy? I could be. optimistic long term and realistic about. what growth means. The reason we tend to. have growth in the economy and in the. stock market is because it's. specifically because there's short-term. chaos. So, am I optimistic about the. next 30 years? AB: Absolutely. I know. that my kids will be living a better.

material life than you and I are. They'll have better medicine. They'll. have better technology. They'll have. flying cars. whatever it is does that. but I'm equally confident if not more. confident that the path between now and. then is going to be chaos and that's not. exclus mutually exclusive like the fact. that I know I'm extremely confident that. there's going to be a lot of growth and. that it's going to be a constant chain. of setback and suffering and misery. between now and then. >> Is there anything that you see it. creating a setback? I mean there's these. new protagonists in the story. There's.

AI. There's um the declining birth rates. which is going to have an impact on the. population. Is there anything that you. think is your most focus? There's. tariffs as well. Um there's Trump. economics which can cause some. instability. >> Historically, the biggest risk by far. has always been the thing that nobody's. talking about. So when we sur you and I. survey the world today, we talk about. exactly what you just said, tariffs, birth rate. People know about those. things. There's never been a period when. the biggest risk was something that was. knowable. It's always something like.

COVID, which nobody saw coming, September 11th, which nobody saw coming, the Great Depression, like all these. things, Pearl Harbor, all these things. that were not on people's radar that did. the most damage. And so, it's not that I. don't worry about tariffs or that I. don't worry about uh birth rates, I do, but I would guarantee you that the the. worst economic story of the next 10. years, the biggest risk is something. that you and I are not talking about. whatsoever. It's a risk that's going to. come completely out of the blue. That is. not in any newspaper. It's not in any. podcast. That's going to be the biggest.

risk. >> Is there a particular chapter in the. psychology of money which was your the. book that sold I hear almost 10 million. copies and had a profound impact on my. life and and my family's life. Is there. a particular story or chapter in this. book that is your favorite? I think the the chapter on reasonable. versus rational, which to very quickly. summarize it is don't pretend like you. are purely rational and you're a. spreadsheet and your financial decisions. have to like make perfect sense.

Everyone is a little bit flawed, a. little bit emotional, different family. situations, different goals. As long as. your financial decisions are merely. reasonable, that's good. And I think a. lot of people, for me and for a lot of. people, they're like, "Oh, thank you for. giving me permission because I have this. quirky thing that I do with my money and. it doesn't make any sense, but it's. reasonable and but it makes sense for my. personality." And like, as long as it's. reasonable, like don't be unreasonable, but don't think that every one of your. financial decisions has to add up. perfectly in a spreadsheet. You want to. use money as a tool for a better life.

>> And there's many different ways to do. that. A lot of which might make sense to. me, but not make sense to you or vice. versa. And so that's fine. And so, uh, I. I think that to me of just like, hey, this is not an exercise in a spreadsheet. where I'm just trying to make sure all. the numbers add up. I'm just trying to. use money to be a little bit happier and. to sleep better and to give myself, my. family, a little bit of a better life. Even if it doesn't always make sense, is. as a tool to give me a better life. >> If money is a tool for happiness, I. guess you have to get really clear,

which you talk about in in your new. book, The Art of Spending Money. You. have to get really clear on what your. goal is. And I think most of us have. never actually done an exercise to get. clear on that. >> Yes. >> Which is quite shocking. >> Jeff Bezos talks about this in a way. that I think was really profound where. he's like he thought about building. Amazon with what he called the regret. minimization framework which was he. envisioned himself being 90 years old or. whatever on his deathbed and looking. back. And he said the goal for life was. to be on your deathbed and have as few.

regrets as possible. And he said if he. started Amazon and it failed, he would. not have regretted that. But if he never. tried to start it, he would regret it. And so it was an easy of of course he. has to do it because he wants to have as. few regrets as possible. But I just. think that very simple framework of the. overarching goal in life. If you have. like what is the base of the pyramid for. how to live a good life, you want to. have as few regrets as possible. Not. take as few risks as you can, just have. as few regrets as possible. I think.

what's hard is that people by and large. don't have a good concept of what they. will regret. It's it's easy to do. because a lot of things kind of compound. slowly. So, uh if you eat a poor diet or. if you're like not treating your friends. as well as you should, that's like a. slow thing. You might regret it. eventually, but you're going to look. back, but in real time, you don't really. understand what you're doing. So, to. have a good sense of what you're going. to regret is a difficult thing, but to. me, that's the ultimate goal in life. There is a a you know I I I heard the.

story one time of a uh of a guy who his. his his last words on his deathbed were. so much wasted time. Those are his last. words. And I remember thinking like. that's that's that's as worse that's. that's as bad as it comes to be on your. deathbed and look back and being like. man what a what a regret just filled. with regrets of the things you didn't do. of the way that you treated people of. the risks that you didn't take. And so I. think that if there's an overarching. philosophy, it's that. And I ask myself. a lot like, do I have a good sense of.

what I'm going to regret? And for every. decision that I make, do I ask myself, will I regret doing or not doing this. thing? Easier said than done, but it's. something I think about a lot. I think it's generally just hard for us. to appreciate that there will be a. future self. I I was reading a study. where they put people in these MRI. scanners and then asked them to think. about themsel and then a celebrity and. then themselves in 10 years time and the. when they thought about themselves a. certain part of the brain lit up when.

they thought about a celebrity or. themselves in 10 years time a different. part of the brain lit lit up which kind. of makes [clears throat] you think that. we don't really our future self is a. stranger. >> Yeah. And so we act and I think this. about the people that I sit here with I. think probably most of the people that I. sit here with learning from. If you. could like distill it down to why. they're here, it's because they were. able to think about themselves in 10. years time. >> They were able so they became an athlete. and trained or they became a CEO or they. became an expert in something. They were. able to like think to and they got.

through the PhD and all the I don't know. just. >> there's a great quote from Jerry. Seinfeld. He says self-control is. empathy with your future self. M. >> it's you [clears throat] are making a. decision to either do or not do. something today because you have respect. for your future self and you care about. your future self. You know there's going. to be a Steven 10 years from now and you. want to do something today with. compassion for that person 10 years from. now. >> I'm guessing kids help in some regard. because they give you a future. >> to think about. Yeah. Right. something.

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stuck in routine. It's weird how as we. age we like routine more but intuitively. everyone would say that routine makes. them. >> boring. >> boring less less life less spontaneous. less interesting less or less wonder. there's that thing people realize this. that summer vacation when you're 10. years old seems like it lasts forever. but when you're an adult summer goes by. in 3 seconds and you're like what like. why does why is time going faster at. least one of the theories for why it. seems like time goes faster as you age. is because when you're a child every day.

is something new. You're experiencing. something for the first time. It's a. constant chain of novelty. When you're. an adult, it's probably the same commute. going to the same job, living in the. same house, and one day blends into the. next, and before you know it, 10 years. has passed. And so, the idea of like. trying something new, I think, is is is. important. The point I made in the book. about trying something new is you don't. know what your thing that you really are. going to enjoy in life is. It might not. be intuitive. Some people value travel.

by and large. I don't. Some people enjoy. like spending a ton of money on wine. By. and large, I don't. But I do spend my. money on things that you might not. appreciate. Like everybody's different. You can't. There's no formula for how to. do it. You have to try a million. different kinds of spending before. you're like, "Oh, I like this. I don't. like that. I want to focus more on. this." And it's not intuitive what that. thing is going to be. My wife and I also. had this realization in the last month. So many people when they talk and think. about money and spending, they're like, "I want to travel. I want to I want to. have more money so I can travel." And I. think by and large that's great. Travel.

is an amazing thing. My wife and I. realized that like I think we've done so. much of it and because we have kids. right now that we're like I don't think. we enjoy it that much. And it wasn't. until we were looking at our summer. schedule that we're like okay we got two. more trips coming up that we were like. really and we realized the best part of. the last several trips that we've taken. is coming home. [laughter] The most. enjoyable part of the trip was coming. home. And we were like, can we just. admit that maybe we shouldn't be doing. this as much as we do. >> That's so fun.

>> Even if society tells us that we should. do it and everyone else I travel a lot. for work. So like my idea of a vacation. is not not going on an airplane. And but. you have to realize like everyone's. unique and different. Like if travel is. your thing or someone listening to this, awesome. Please go do it. We had to just. admit to ourselves that at least at this. phase of our life, we want to do a. little bit less of it. The idea that. everyone's different is important. >> I think I mean I think exactly that. I. think what underp underpins much of your. message here is this ability to. cultivate self-awareness. >> Yeah. And I think a lot of what throws.

people off with money is chasing a. lifestyle that is right for somebody. else but not right for them. And that it. can be very a hard thing to do because. you're like, man, this person over here, he's working this hard and and she has. this house and they're living this. lifestyle and it looks like they're. pretty happy. And then you try to do it. and you're like, but I'm not happy. And. the truth may have been that working. that hard and spending money on that was. right for that person, but it's not. right for you. >> That's what we understand.

>> You and I had Jeff Bezos's. ambition, Elon Mus's ambition, I think. we I I' I'd draw we drive ourselves. absolutely crazy. It's right for them, it might not be right for us. >> And so when we view it as it worked for. them, so I should do it, too. No, no, no. It doesn't work like that. You have. to figure it out for yourself. >> But also the inverse, right? It didn't. work for them, so it won't work for me. is also incorrect, >> right? I think it's immature for people. to say, I like this thing and therefore. you should too. >> Or the reverse, this didn't work for me.

and therefore nobody should do it. >> This is the whole work life balance. >> That's not how life works. Right. Right. >> And this is what you see raging on. LinkedIn is one group of people saying. that amount of work and sacrifice is. toxic. >> You should do it or or which is you're. lazy. >> You have you have to hustle. You're lazy. if you don't live the life that I do. >> And both sides are wrong. >> Yes. It comes from a sense of immaturity. that everyone else should enjoy life in. the exact same way that I do. >> I think there's a few psych. psychological forces at play here. One. is.

if you're looking at a bunch of people. working really hard and you're not, it's. in a weird way holding a mirror up to. you and implicitly sort of like. indirectly saying that you're not. enough. >> Yeah. >> And then maybe on the other side there's. some other force going the other way. But I think both sides are kind of like. misunderstanding. that everybody is not them. >> Yes. And I can pick apart elements of. your life and say, "Wow, Stephen, his. podcast is is this and he's got homes. here and he's doing this." But there's a.

million different components of your. life and my life and everybody's life. that are invisible. And most people. because of self-preservation or because. they're trying to get ahead in life will. not disclose what the bad parts of their. life are. [laughter]. Of course, everybody does this. I I do. this, you probably do it. Everyone does. that because either they don't want to. admit them to themselves or they don't. want to talk about it because they think. other people are going to judge them for. the bad parts of their life. So, it's. very easy to look at other people's. lives and have a sense of like, oh,

well, theirs is better than mine because. all you can see is what they are. advertising. And uh and and and because of that, it's. very easy to be jealous or envious of. people and say, "If only I had their. life, things would be better." And part. of it is good. It's part of is good for. me to look at be like, man, Stephen's. [clears throat] been so successful doing. this kind of content. Maybe I should do. that's motivation. But once I say. their life looks better than mine, and. if only I had what they had, I would be. happier is is a very treacherous path,

treacherous path to go down. >> Jack is the producer on the show. He's. he's done the show with me since the the. very beginning of us launching on. YouTube. And so he understands the. intricacies of my life very well. He. understands my business. He understands, you know, the this what it takes and the. trade-offs. So, Jack, would you want my life? >> Absolutely not. [laughter]. >> No hesitation there. >> There's there's no world where like I. could even imagine being in your world.

The amount of people that are bidding. for your attention on a daily basis is. mind-blowing to me. the podcast is like. such a huge part of your life, but the. fact that I barely hear from you on like. a weekly basis can probably put into a. little bit of perspective how much you. have on your plate. I just like couldn't. imagine having the magnifying glass on. me that much. >> that the whole world is kind of looking. at me and thinking like has an opinion. on you.

>> Mhm. [clears throat]. >> And you run lots of businesses, so you. almost have to perform a little bit. And. I think I see the worst of you and I. actually take that a huge compliment. because you can be yourself around me. I. remember the time when you had to. schedule your lunch. >> Oh, I still schedule my lunch. It. doesn't happen but I schedule it. >> You schedule it cuz you like don't get. time for your lunch. >> Like you went out of here, you went to. the toilet and people are asking you. questions in between going from here to. the toilet. It's stuff that needs to be. asked, but it's that is your life.

That's the kind of thing that you've um. gone into. >> And I don't know if that kind of answers. your question. I could probably go on. for a long long time, but. >> you should do a whole episode [laughter]. to do. >> I've got last question then. So I have. two more questions. The next question is. do you think that I do you think I'm. happy in my life? >> Uh yes. I don't think you're content. >> I think you're happy, but I don't think. you're content. >> Yeah. >> And what do you mean by content? Like. what do you mean by content? you're.

always trying to chase the next thing. and I'm not sure why. Like you could so. easily just do this podcast and it would. do so well for you. Like it does do so. well for you. Uh you could spend all. your time doing this and I think you're. super happy when you do do this. But. then there's also other stuff that. clearly makes you happy that you want to. do, but then you'll come to me and. you're like, "We should start this new. YouTube channel.". And I'm kind of like, yeah, great idea,

but I don't know why you want that extra. effort. To your core, you're a. businessman, so you're constantly trying. to build and scale, but on like a. personal reflection of how much extra. toll that takes on you. And also for. Mel, I know your relationship with Mel, you don't see her that much. So, I think that's quite an interesting. one. But yes, I do think you're happy, but I don't think you're content. >> And last question, what would you like. from my life? >> What would I like from your life? >> Yeah. So you said you wouldn't want my. you wouldn't want my life because and. you talked about the downsides.

>> Yeah. What elements of Yeah. of my life. would you like? >> That's actually quite interesting cuz I. was I think I was talking to Jem and. Cozy about this last night. Your life is. so engineered to be super efficient. >> Yeah. >> So you have someone books your cars for. you, someone books your flights for you. You you basically, as far as I'm aware, I don't think you do much kind of normal. admin that I would do. >> No. [laughter] I don't even pick what I. eat. >> Yeah. Exactly. >> I like I get the surprise. I walk out. here and it's there and I go, "Okay, well, I'm having broccoli today.". [laughter].

>> And I think so much of like the joys of. what comes from life is the little. messiness of life. >> Yeah. >> And I actually think Morgan kind of. touched on this at the start, that. simple kind of family that just they're. not like super ambitious, but they're. super happy. Like that messiness of life. is kind of there's so much like beauty. in that. I know you asked me what you. would want from your life, but I think. on the surface I probably would like. that stuff, but I understand and. appreciate the beauty of doing those. I. ask the question around um.

[clears throat] um do you think I'm. happy? Because. even though you heard all of that stuff. and you go, "Fuck me, this guy like he. he doesn't have much time and he's he's. always working and like we took a toilet. break, which the audience probably won't. know, but yeah, as I walked out of. there, two different team members came. up to two different issues. They said. someone wants to come on the podcast. tonight. I've got this huge meeting in. New York City tonight with this major. investor for 4 hours. That then they. asked me in the hallway. They said, "Do. you want this major guest to come on the. show tonight or to cancel this huge. meeting with this investor? You. >> need to make the decision in 4 seconds.".

>> 4 seconds. So you saw me sit down and go. tell the team yes. >> I did. >> Which was me making that executive. decision. I was on my phone for two and. a half seconds trying to make the. decision. But it also means that date. night is if impacted with my girlfriend. who's so like that that was a little. representation of my life. And I I um I. asked Jack if he thinks I'm happy. because my opinion. and I could be living in a delusion is. that I am happy and I the way that I. would hazard a guess that I'm happy is I.

am not unhappy and I don't have. unhappiness. My guess too is that you if you said I'm. going to quit the podcast, quit all. this, close the business down, you would. be beside yourself with anxiety and. depression. >> And so it's less about like is doing. this, does doing this make you happy? I. think the better answer is not doing. this would make you miserable. >> Yeah. >> But that's who you are and that's how. and I again I'm so grateful that people. like you exist because I get to benefit.

from the sacrifices that you made. >> It's not a sacrifice to me. Yes, I I I I get that. But what from my. perspective would be a sacrifice I get. to benefit from because you make great. content that I listen to and whatnot. >> And so I like living in a world where. most people wake up in the morning and. say this isn't enough. >> And I I I think I do that too. I want to. write more books, better books, and but. if you don't have some capacity to say, look, I have ambitions. I have goals. that I want to achieve. I want to work. hard to achieve those. I want to.

sacrifice to achieve those, but I'm. never going to have a good life unless I. can take a step back and be like, man, like look what I have right now, even if. it's not that much. There's a very good. book written by a gerontologist named. Carl Pillmer. He wrote a book called 30. lessons for living where he interviewed. a bunch of elderly Americans who were. like 90 to 100 years old. And he just. said, "Tell me the secret to a good. life. You've experienced a lot of life. Tell me what you know.". And he has a section where he says, "Of. the thousand people who we interviewed, not a single person looking back at.

their life said,"I wish I made more. money.". >> Not a single person said, "I wish I. would picked a career that paid more. money." Not one, but almost every single. one of them looking back at their life. said, "I wish I was nicer to people. I. wish I was more helpful to my friends. I. wish I spent more time with my family.". That was universal. So, if you want to. talk about like regrets, what are we. most likely what are you and I most. likely to regret when we're 90? It's not. making more money. It's spending time. with the people around us that we love. and appreciate. >> I find myself switching between states.

and sometimes it's because of a thought, but I find myself switching between. these states of being like in a moment. and a in in a mode of gratitude. So last. night I did the Jimmy Fallon show here. in New York. My team were there. It was. this really wonderful moment. My, you. know, I woke up this morning feeling. incredibly grateful. Last night I was. like listening to some of my favorite. music. I felt incredibly grateful and. really happy. And then I know that I'm. gonna switch into the lack of. contentment that Jack's referring to. >> Happiness is always a five minute. emotion. >> Yeah. And and like today I'm I'm back to. business and it's like build build bill.

build. And then I have this moment last. night where I was I was making the. Instagram post to announce that I've. been on Jimmy Fallon and I noticed my. girlfriend next to me in bed had fallen. asleep. And this thought comes through. my head all the time now, probably from. doing this podcast, which is exactly. what you said, which is. >> I am going to regret not spooning her. and cuddling her while I have the. chance, especially I think cuz Charlie. Kirk had just been shot and I'd seen her. his family. Yeah. Maybe that's why it. was front of mind for me. And I remember. putting the phone down and thinking. >> the thing I'm going to regret is not.

cuddling her. >> Yeah. >> And so I put the phone down and cuddled. cuddled her. And so, yeah, I I I'm I'm. strange, I think, because I I I flock. between these states and sometimes on an. hourly basis, sometimes on a daily. basis, sometimes on like a. minute-by-minute basis. >> The fact that you're just merely aware. of those states. >> and the the false story that those. states can tell you puts you way ahead. of most people. I think that I think to. a some extent that there there's a. there's an interesting book called 10%. Happier and it's about meditation and. [clears throat] the point the title came.

from everyone's like oh can meditation. change your life and his point was like. it can make you 10% happier but like. that's pretty cool and I think that's. true for money as well of like can it. completely change your life and turn you. into a much better person and way. happier like I kind of feel like no but. like it can make you 10 maybe 20%. happier in life I think that's that's. probably right but just Being aware of. its limitations like is a huge relief. I. think I think be like no, if you want a. happier life, you're going to have to. find it through your purpose and your.

friends and your family and your health. and your other philosophies of life that. have nothing to do with money. It can. help. It can make you 10, 20, maybe 30%. happier, but understanding its. limitations and what it's not going to. do for you is pretty important. That lack of contentment I think I. sometimes feel guilty about because I. sit with so many people especially like. people that are monks and such and they. tell you that wanting will make you. despair and make you unsatisfied but I. find myself as being one of those people. that you describe that constantly wants. to chase and pursue and pursue.

>> and I think that I do have like am I. supposed to feel guilty about that? Is. that something like wrong with me? No, I. mean I think that's how humans have. evolved is to because at the core of it. is competition. Like where you have that. I think drive everyone has that drive is. not necessarily because you want to. build another business or build a grow. your podcast. It's competition with. others who might be doing that better. than you or who might take your place if. you were to step back that gives you the. anxiety. I think that's what everything. has as its core. And that's why I like.

asking the question, if nobody was. watching, what would you want to do? If. nobody was watching your podcast, would you still want to do these. interviews? If nobody could see your house, would. you still would you buy a house that was. as big as the one you did? Sometimes the. answer is yes. The answer might be yes. to both of those questions. But it's an. important question to ask of are you. doing this because it actually fulfills. you or because you are competing with. other people and you think you're. gaining their attention by doing these.

things. >> I think everyone who is answering. honestly would say for most of the. decisions in their life especially the. big ones the answer is both. >> Yes. So like choosing Harvard versus the. other university which might have been. better but it's Harvard or buying the. house where you bought it or that watch. that you bought or the Apple watch. instead of the whatever. >> And signaling is important. You can't. just discount it because if you want, you know, to attract the right the right. friends, the right spouse, the right. employers, there's a signaling aspect. A. college degree is signaling. It's not.

the education you obtained. It's you're. showing employee you're giving a signal. to an employer that for four years I. showed up and did the material and got. the right answers. It's a it's signal. like signaling can be very very. important. It's not to discount it, but. there's a right and a wrong kind of. signaling. There's a right kind of like. I'm I'm doing this. I'm dressing in a. way and displaying myself and cutting my. hair in a way that's going to attract. the right friends and the right mates, the right boyfriend, girlfriend, whatever it might be. There's also. signaling of like, I'm going to aspire. to buy this car that's a huge pain in.

the ass and I actually hate driving, but. I think strangers are going to look at. me and pay more attention to me. That's. the wrong kind of signaling. >> I think this is the thing that both. sides misunderstand in the debate is. that someone who is a workaholic, believe it or not, can be happy. And. someone who does no work or works one. day a week can be happy. >> And this is like a really difficult. concept for either side to understand. about the other side. And that's why as. well I asked the question about Jack. like do you think I'm happy? Because. Jack would know that if I'm like if I. walk out of here and he sees me as this.

depressed person who never smiles, never. laughs and has no joy in my life, doesn't have mo, you know, then I would. very much fit the stereotype of like the. tortured work or whatever. But it's uh. yeah, it's surprising. It's surprising. >> I think we all just want contentment. So. like we I think we get into a lot of. trouble when we chase happiness when. what we're actually going for is. contentment. We actually just want to. get to an area where we're like, I'm. good. I'm all set. >> What's the most important thing or the. most interesting thing in your book that. you can remember that we didn't talk.

about that maybe we should have talked. about? >> I think the relationship between money. and kids is is a is an interesting one. where every parent wants to use their. hard work. What money they might have. It doesn't have to be a ton. You don't. have to be rich, but they want to use. their hard work in order to give their. kids a better life. When a lot of times. what the kid needs to do is learn on. their own. and they're going to learn. vicariously the values that you have. about money. They're going to learn just. by watching. You don't need to sit your. kids down and say, "Let me teach you how. to budget. Let me teach you how to save.

Let me teach you how to invest." They're. going to figure they're going to watch. you and figure it out. And so, you have. to just lead by example with those kids. You cannot lecture values into them. They're just going to watch how you. spend, what you value, how you save, how. you judge other people and talk about. other people, and they're going to form. a philosophy of money based off of that. I often think about money in terms of. like attachment styles. You know, in. like dating psychology and romance, they. talk about anxious, avoidant, um, and. then [clears throat] the what's the.

middle person called? They're like a. basically neutral. But I think I had an. avoidant money attachment style. I think. money was the like the third parent in. my household. And I learned that money. causes problems. That it doesn't come. around as much as we would like. That. it's really why we argue in the. household. That it's the reason why I am. embarrassed when we pull up in that. terrible car. And I try and get my I. hope the traffic lights change in a.

certain way so that I can be dropped off. further away from the school so no one. sees me. Like my relationship with money. was established at such a young age. And. it was it's almost like a I had like a. unhealthy like they say relationship. Yeah. like an attachment style to it. Um, and I just wonder like is that a. useful frame to think through that you. have this Yeah. like this romanticesque. relationship with this thing and in. order to change that you need to.

unlearn the lessons. I think a lot of like the lessons that. we learn about money when we're younger. are because like I said earlier, it's. because you when you're young, particularly you're a teenager, you're. in your early 20s, most people in that. situation have very little other skills. to offer the world. Yeah. >> Humor, intelligence. Some some people. more than others, but in that situation, you're always going to gravitate towards. if only I had a nicer car when I was. being dropped off at school, then they. would pay attention to me. But the truth. is, if you are the funniest kid in. class, it doesn't matter if you're.

dropped off in a junky car. People still. respect you because they're like, "Man, he's a star of the football team." Like, it's hilarious. Doesn't matter what kind. of car he's driving. You gain your. attention and your respect from. something else. But if you're not the. star football player, if you're not. funny, if you have nothing else to. offer, then you seek your admiration. through, oh, he's dropped off in an. escalade. He's cool. That's where you. want your attention to come from. >> Is there anything else we should have. talked about that we haven't talked. about, Morgan? For people that are trying to get a grip. of their life, be happy, make better. money choices. To me, like the common.

denominator between all three of those. books that you're holding is the idea. that we talked about quite a bit on all. the shows we've done together, which is. that there is no formula for it. And. that's very disheartening for a lot of. people to hear. There's no formula for. here's what I want you to go out and do, which is a lot of what people want out. of content, whether it's a book or. podcast, like just tell me what to do. And the answer is like I I can't because. I don't know you and you don't know me. We're all different. But I think that's. actually the biggest like relief. That's. actually the best news that you don't.

have to follow somebody else's playbook. You can do it your own way. And it's. easier to do it your own way when you. come to terms with the fact that nobody. is paying as much attention to you as. they think they are. You can do it your. own way free of judgment and other. people, you know, making fun of you or. judging how you're living life because. they're too busy worrying about. themselves. You have to figure out what. works for you and do it. And that's as. close as we can get as a formula for. living a better life. It's funny because. the book is called The Art of Spending. Money, but much of the throughine.

throughout the book is really about. happiness. And I guess that's really. what money is for many people. >> a tool tool. A tool to become happy. >> I remember when I interviewed Mo Gorda, he wrote a book um about happiness. He. said to me a line that's always stayed. with me. He said, "Happiness is when. your expectations of how your life is. supposed to be going are met.". >> Yes. >> And so with through that lens, I look at. everything. I look at like the food that. you're given in a restaurant. And if you. expected it to be this and it doesn't. come like that, there's unhappiness. Even if it's like a fivestar a A5 Wagu.

steak or whatever. >> Um, and then your relationships, all of. my arguments I've ever had with my. girlfriend, all stem back to unmet. expectations. >> Expectations. I was saying if if you. ride the Amtrak train from like New York. to Washington DC, on every train they. have what's called the quiet car. And in. the quiet car, you're not supposed to. talk at anything above a whisper. No. phone calls, no talking with your. friends. It's the quiet car. And people. go there for peace and quiet and. serenity. And the irony is that people. are so uptight in there because if if. they hear one peep out of everyone, they're like, "Would you shut up? WE'RE. IN THE QUIET CAR." They're so frustrated.

about it because your expectation is, "I'm going to get quiet." And if it's. [clears throat] anything other than. quiet, you lose your mind. And it's like. at that point, that's when your high. expectations are actually working. against you. >> Interesting. >> And people are actually calmer in the. normal car where there's chaos all. around them because that's what they. expect. >> So that's the unhappiness car, >> right? You're like your expectations are. a debt that has to be repaid. >> [snorts]. >> That gives us a controllable element to. our happiness, doesn't it? >> Expectations because your expectations. are more in your control than things.

like what the economy or the stock. market's going to do next. Like I have. no nobody has any control of what the. stock market's going to do next. But you. have you do have more control over your. expectations of how much money do you. expect to make next week? What do you. expect out of the stock market? What do. you expect out of your career? What do. you expect out of your spouse? like that. is more in your control than influencing. other people's behavior. >> And this is probably why all these. Eastern traditions talk about gratitude. because gratitude is the very. realization that expectations I once had. are currently being met. >> Yeah. >> And it just even when you start to think.

about dreams you once had that you are. now living out for me it makes me feel. Yeah. that feeling of contentment. It. makes me feel really really good inside. So like even yesterday where I took a. moment and I was on the Jimmy Fallon. show and it's like this crazy thing to. me that I could never have imagined. someone like me doing and I took a. minute to just like think about how far. beyond my expectations. this stuff was. >> Yeah. >> It if you feel overwhelmingly good about. it. You. >> But the truth was relative if you just. thought about yesterday. >> Yeah. >> you expected to go on the Jimmy Fallon.

show. You that that that met your. expectations for the day. If you looked. at your calendar for the day it was I. need to go to Jimmy Fallon. I need to. perform. I need to say the right things. But over the longer scope that's off the. charts of your expectations. >> and that's the zooming out where we see. >> the gratitude you know fills us up. >> and it's very difficult to say this. without sounding ridiculous but you can. even zoom out and be like god I'm so. grateful to live in a world with. antibiotics. [laughter] like it sounds crazy because. we expect them whenever we take. penicellin we're like yeah like it's. just a thing that exists but can you.

imagine living in a world without that. as 99% of humanity did before us like. it's it's impossible to think of like. the most basic things that we take. advantage of. But that's where gratitude. like you have to zoom out to become more. grateful to these things. And you're not. going to be content until you can. exercise that level of gratitude. >> You said something earlier which. doveetails into this where you said that. um at different levels people will. aspire you know the billionaire wants. two billion. And I was reading a study. many years ago that said roughly all the. way up the income wealth spectrum people. want like three times more than they. have now is what seems like the amount.

that's going to keep you happy. So if. you have $10,000 people are like once I. have 20 then I'll be good. If you have. $20 million, people are like, "Ah, 40. seems like the right amount." It's. always two or three times what you have. >> And that's just the intentional creation. of an expectation gap. It's like. creating misery for yourself. >> Yes. It's this idea that like if only I. had a little bit more money, then these. problems that I have, this anxiety, this. unfilled hole that I have will finally. be filled. And it's a it's a lie we tell. ourselves, of course. >> And everyone listening right now has.

that. Everyone has a number in your head. where you think if I got there, >> then it'd be I I have that. You have. that. We all do. And if you and I have. met that number, previous versions of. that number, it's the same thing. We're. like, okay, but double would be great. Double double would be awesome. I met. someone the other day whose income, annual income is almost exactly 2x mine. We were being very open with each. He's. a good friend of mine. And the instant. feeling I had, I didn't say this, but. the instant feeling I had was like, okay, if I had that, everything would be.

great. And it's it's absurd. We do that. all day. And I'm sure if my friend met. someone whose income was 2x of his, >> he would be like, "Oh, >> that's the level. That's the one.". >> Because your your overheads go up, but. then your competition comparison group. also increases. So you're now poorer in. a different class of comparison. Like. Yeah. Your like when you bought that new. house you just bought. >> Yeah. >> That must have moved you to a new. neighborhood. >> And there's houses in the neighborhood. nicer than ours. >> My wife and I talk about that.

[laughter] It's absurd. It's absurd. Now, I I think I'm I think because I. write about this stuff, I think I'm a. little bit better at catching myself in. those moments, but I won't pretend that. I don't have those moments. They're. almost unavoidable. >> What has worked for you? Is there. anything that has actually worked for. you in terms of. detaching you from comparison and what. people think? Is there anything at all. that's worked? >> I like this term humble bubble. I want. to live in a humble bubble. It has to be. humble because I don't want to live in a. bubble where I don't have empathy for. other people. I want to take in the. experience of others so I can try to.

understand the world that I live in. But. I want to live in a bubble in the sense. of like I want my expectations not to. leave my own house. Easier said than. done. But when my expectations don't. leave my own house, I'm like I want good. health for myself. I want happy kids. I. want a good marriage. And those things. don't leave my roof. Once my. expectations leave my bubble, my once. once they expand outside of my house, I'm like, "Oh, look at his house. What? It's like I just wanted I always think. about that humble bubble of like the.

only thing that's going to make me happy. exists underneath my roof and I know. that and as soon as my aspirations are. for or leave that I know it's just going. to spin out of control. I I I try to. think about that a lot. And as I. mentioned before the idea of if nobody. was watching what would I care about? That's that's the most powerful exercise. to me. If nobody could see anything that. I was doing, what how would I choose to. live? >> I've always wanted to counter um this. point with some thinking, which is but.

if I put myself in a higher status. position, I'm going to get more. opportunities, which means more money, which is then going to better allow me. to focus on utility. Not that that's how. it ever plays out for anybody. >> Yeah. >> But the thinking is well actually status. does equal revenue. >> Yeah. >> In a lot of the world. >> and revenue can give you independence. >> Yeah. the the I think that's right. I. think to many extents that's been my. goal. How can I be successful in my. career so that I can make enough money. to not have to work in the career. anymore? Like it's not that stark, but.

it's kind of like that. The flaw in it. >> is that I like writing. You like. podcasting. >> and so if we get more successful like I. I'm not I'm not chasing success so that. I can stop doing what I'm doing. I just. want to do things that I enjoy. >> We have a closing tradition where. they'll ask us leaves a question for the. next as you know. Um, do you have major. regrets in life? Then it says they prove. no real purpose. Do you still have. regrets? >> Nothing huge.

There are some regrets. I was thinking. about this the other day. My wife and I, we have two kids and we're done having. kids. >> And there's part of me that's like, what. would have life been like if I had four. kids, three kids? we if we done that. like each both my kids have given me so. much meaning and purpose and I wonder. what a life would have been like if I. just had if I had more and I I can't. imagine having just one kid I can't. imagine just having zero kids but. there's an alternative life in which I. had four or five kids and you know life.

gets crazy at that point and that's not. a regret but you realize like once. you've kind of closed that door on your. life you're like man what would have. life been if I had done it if I had done. it differently because it's given me. more purpose than anything that I ever. could have imagined and I could have had. more and maybe it would have been worse. But I I I wonder what that would have. been. I think it's not until you've. we've chosen to close that door that. chapter of our life that we're like, man, what if we had what if I had done. it a little bit differently. >> Do you wish you had frozen embryos?

>> No. >> Because that would have kept the door. open theoretically. >> Not really. Because I think there is a. point of like you want you need youthful. energy to be a parent. I I I couldn't. imagine having a newborn at 50 or 60. I. just [clears throat] I think you need. the energy of a 30-year-old or 25 or a. 30-year-old to do that. And it's not a. regret because I'm very satisfied with. the the family that I have now. But it's. one of those things of like you realize. you're there's an infinite number of. paths your life can go down. And we.

could have had no kids. We could have. had four kids. We chose this path, but. it's one of just one. It's one of. multiple paths that it could have gone. down. Morgan, thank you. Thank you for doing. what you do. You're my favorite author. of all time, and I think I've told you. this before, but it's the way that you. write. I find it so unbelievably. engaging. You the message within your. book is a profound one. All of your. books are profound ones, but it's. actually the way that you tell the. stories. And if anybody's listened to. you speak today, they'll understand. exactly what I mean. Your books are a an. a mirror of that. Um, the psychology of.

money, as I told you before, is the book. that changed my financial life. the one. book my brother who's a very smart. person told me to re to read and there's. no wonder that it's one of the. bestselling books of all time. I think. it might be the bestselling book of all. time in its category. Um and your new. [clears throat] book The Art of Spending. continues on the same trend. Incredibly. accessible, incredibly engaging, incredibly human, but within there. there's a profound lesson that stands. the chance of changing our lives for the. better. So I highly recommend everybody. goes and gets this book, The Art of. Spending Money, which comes out. tomorrow,

>> October 7th. >> October 7th. So, I'm going to link it. below for anybody that wants to grab a. copy of this book. And if you're someone. that does want a happier life, it is a. book about spending, but it's also more. broadly a book about happiness and. regret. And it tells stories that allow. you to make better decisions in your. life. And it's through stories, not. through frameworks alone or data that I. think we're most influenced. And you can. probably relate to this if you're. listening to this. You probably have. heard stats before. You probably know. you should save. But it's sometimes. hearing real stories from real people.

that stick into your amydala and create. that behavioral change. And that's. exactly how Morgan writes. He writes. through the context of great stories. that stand a chance of changing your. life. So it's a wonderful, wonderful. book to read and I highly recommend you. do. >> Thanks so much for having me. >> Thank you so much, Morgan. Hope to see. you again sometime soon. >> Likewise. [music]. [music].