The Orgasm Expert: THIS Is How Often You Should Be Having Sex & Stop Inviting Pets Into The Bedroom!

everyone wants more sex better sex and. there is huge amount that we can do that. can guarantee great sex for the rest of. your life so that the best place to. start is Dr Karen gurny she is a. clinical psychologist and psychos. sexologist that has been helping. individuals and couples overcome sexual. problems for 20 years she's lead. psychologist in an award-winning NHS sex. clinic this might be surprising to some. people 52% of women and 42% of men are. unhappy with the sex lives that they. have and that's because as a society.

we've got sex all wrong for example the. way desire is represented to us is lust. passion spontaneity but it's not the. norm and the problem is a lot of people. are waiting to feel like that and. they're waiting a really long time what. we need to do instead is be aware that. our desire can be triggered using what I. call sexual currency I'll go into that. we also know that penis and vagina sex. is women's least favorite sexual act but. that's how we see how sex should be so. we see less pleasure and less reward for.

women but also if you ask most people. how often they should be having sex. everyone says three times a week it's. actually drastically different than that. three times a month and that shows the. way we understand sex is all wrong so I. have questions do you think you should. schedule sex no what you should do. though is fantasies fetishes what if. your partner says I don't like it well I. can talk you through that if you like. parents who are struggling with sex what. should they do we know that people start. having sex again from when their kid is.

about six and that's because what if. you're in a relationship right now and. you no longer found them attractive what. do I say I would. say it's absolutely crazy to me that so. many of you have decided to watch our. show um and so many of you have decided. to subscribe to our show we now have. five million subscribers on YouTube. which is a number that I just can't. comprehend and it's a dream that I. absolutely never could have had we. started the dire of a CO just over 3. years ago now and in my wildest. expectations we might have had 100,000.

subscribers by now so you can imagine. how shocked I am that so many of you. have chosen to tune into these. conversations every week um and spend. some time with us so thank you and I. made a deal with you I made a deal that. if you subscribe to this show that we. would continue to raise the bar and in. 2024 we're going to raise the bar like. never before I've been working for the. last nine months on a surprise for all. of you that have subscribed to the show. and I'm very excited to deliver that for. you the production is going to change.

we're going to go even further with our. guests and we're going to tell even more. Global stories so as always if you. appreciate what we're doing here the. simple free favor I'll ask from you is. to hit the Subscribe button let's get on. with the. [Music]. episode Dr Karen gy. hi what you do and why' you do it I. spend my working week trying to change. people's relationships with sex and the.

reason I do that is because although we. might think that sex is a kind of. frivolous recreational Pursuit it. actually isn't it's super important for. our psychological well-being for our. relationship well-being we know that. when people have great sex their. relationships last longer we know that. when people have great sex they're even. more productive in work than next day. there are so many reasons why sex is. important but unfortunately as a society. we've kind of got it all wrong about how.

sex Works about what we should be doing. and because of that we have hugely High. rates of dissatisfaction with people's. sex lives in the UK but also worldwide. why did Sex take your fancy there's so. much about sex that's fascinating I. think there's loads we don't know um. there's loads we do know but no one. talks about people find it so hard to. talk about sex and it's so. stigmatized that you know when people. come into the room you can really see.

the weight of it on their shoulders it's. hard for them to speak about it's. embarrassing for them and to be the. person that makes that feel comfortable. and to be the person that can create. change in a part of their life that. matters so much but is perhaps something. they've never told their closest friend. about is hugely rewarding you also get. to work with people across all ages so. you know from their teens to their '90s. you get to work with couples individuals. um you get everything with Sex Therapy I.

love it since you started your work what. was almost what 20 years ago did you 20. what have you seen in terms. of changes in the problem set M that. you're dealing with now I what are the. new problems that you're you're. confronted with in your clinical. practice when couples or people come to. you yeah that's a good one because lots. of things have stayed the same right so. we we we know that for example problems. with desire Remain the most common. reason why people end up in my clinical.

room um but lots of things have also. shifted data actually shows those shifts. over the last few decades so we have. long-term um data into the lives of um. people in the UK in terms of their sex. lives and we know that we're having less. sex this decade than we were the decade. before and the decade before that so the. amount of sex we're having for example. is going down from my clinical hunches. but also from what's been written about. in the research we have a good idea that. that's our pace of life our work life.

balance our distractability our use of. devices um it's become evident in the. last kind of two decades that when it. comes to sex attention is a really key. part of it it's really key so being able. to pay attention to what's happening in. your body or being able to pay attention. to what's happening in your mind is. crucial but as a society I think we're. getting less and less able to pay. attention we're getting getting more and.

more in pursuit of distraction and that. shows itself all the time in Sex Therapy. you know couples who come to see me. because they feel that they're never. having sex but yet when you look at. their week they actually have very. little time together and the time. together they do have they're both busy. scrolling they're watching Netflix and. scrolling they're perhaps doing three. things at once they're checking their. work emails that's taking them to a. whole new cognitive place of stress and. so it's no wonder that people don't have.

space for their desire to emerge and. that's definitely a newer phenomenon it. kind of made me think of some of the. things I was reading about in your books. where you you say that couples and. individuals who do mindfulness practices. um are those that typically have the. most desire the I think the quote is. from your newest book which is the book. is called how not to let having kids. ruin your sex life yeah it's a bit of a. mouthful it's a it's a great great title. it says research tells us that women who. find easier to have orgasms are.

typically more mindful in everyday life. and find it easier to be in the moment. during sex which is chapter three that's. right so there's an enormous amount of. data about attention and sex and. obviously one of the ways in which we. can sharpen our attention is mindfulness. we know that mindfulness Works across a. range of challenges that we face whether. it's pain management whether it's sleep. whether it's about apti regulation all. kinds of things but when it comes to sex. it's super powerful so when you're. distracted during sex um and we know.

that over 90% of people have nonsexual. thoughts during sex okay so everyone. gets distracted we know that from the. research but what happens when we start. to get distracted most of the time or. when those distractions are what we call. cognitively Salient which means they're. worrying or they're particularly. stressful like oh I'm not going to calm. or what if I don't stay hard or is she. enjoying this those types of. distractions what happens is our. distraction is basically basically. turning down our arousal like turning.

down the volume on the TV so it becomes. harder for our bodies to respond so to. stay aroused for example it becomes. harder for us to feel anything so our. pleasure is turned down it becomes. harder for us to come and ultimately. over time it gets in the way of our. desire on the contrary if we work on. that distraction either by trying to. remove them or trying to tackle the. worries that their root cause or trying.

to promote our ability to pay attention. where we want it to be so that's sexual. thoughts sexual Sensations pleasure then. it's like turning up the volume and. we've seen plenty of research that. demonstrate the enormously powerful. impact of mindfulness on sexual response. I can think of times in my life where. because I was stressed or worried when I. got in bed I was worrying about. something or stressing about something. at work yeah my partner tried to have. sex with me and I had zero chance of.

getting aroused I could not get an. erection and it's I remember those. moments and thinking oh God she's going. to think that it's about her but really. it's because of this thing I have on my. to-do list that's exactly right i' I'd. got in bed doing my to-do list so I I. like I was holding my to-do list and I. was doing it on my phone and I put the. phone down and then I lay back and I'm. still thinking about my to-do list and. then she tries to initiate and there's. zero chance that's it and that's also. exactly what we were talking about late. earlier on right which is that our.

society has changed the way we work has. changed so perhaps three decades ago you. wouldn't have been checking your emails. just before bed which means that. wouldn't have started that Cascade of. thoughts about work which would then. perhaps Peak your cortisol your stress. levels and then cut off your ability to. get turned on so that is one of the. major things that has shifted for all of. us and I think you know one of the myths. that we you know would benefit from. quashing about sex is this idea that.

particularly men are always up for it. are always ready to have sex it's just. not. true in fact everybody needs their kind. of conditions for good sex as I call it. to be right they need to be in the right. kind of headp space they need to be not. distracted um they need to know that the. environment is an environment that works. for them it's quite important so yeah. your experience is mirrors what a lot of.

people are probably sat at home thinking. about just now do you think there's a. bit of a a paradox with sex in the sense. that the more you think about it mhm and. worry about it the harder it becomes yes. absolutely so what do you do just not. think about it and worry about like so. it's quite interesting because there's. also something else that happens when we. get turned on which is that we get this. attentional focused narrowing so one of. the features of physiological arousal so. so when blood flows around the body.

particularly to the genitals is that we. know it kind of sharpens our attention. it makes us basically want to block out. the rest of the world and I'm sure we've. all had experiences when we've been. completely in the moment during sex when. we've not thought about a single other. thing that might be happening around us. so that attentional narrowing is great. unless your attention has been hijacked. by a worry because then you get. attentional narrowing on the worry MH.

and what happens when we worry about. something is that it interferes with. sexual response in two main ways the. first is that it takes our attention. away from what's erotic and that turns. down the arousal and pleasure like we. talked about earlier on the TV um the. second thing that happens is that when. we worry about something that activates. our sympathetic nervous system sending. chemical messages around the body saying. don't have sex there's something to. worry about you know it can't tell the. difference between a modern day worry. like this email has come through that's.

ruined my day versus you know a. saber-tooth tiger has just walked in you. know our brains are still primitive in. that regard so what happens is that. switches off our sexual response might. mean that you struggle to get turned on. it might mean that you struggle to feel. anything it might mean that your body. doesn't work in the way you want it to. and then of course the next time you go. into it what are you thinking you're. thinking what if it doesn't work you. talk a lot about expectations um and the. role that they play in sex expectation.

and pressure make sex worse that's a. quote from your new book chapter 3 I. know maybe that's not a quote but that's. basically the gist of what it said um. but it's also the G gist of my. experience I think it's always felt to. me like the opposite of great sex is. expectation and like rigidity yes and. great sex for me is some sometimes. spontaneous but it's Carefree yes and. it's worry free yeah yeah I mean. pressure is a total passion killer but.

pressure it's like that's again the kind. of compounding Paradox because the more. there's a problem with our sex the more. it becomes a focal point in our. relationship the more pressure the more. expectation every night you go to bed. you're thinking you know I've had. moments in past lives and past. relationships where because the sex. wasn't great I would feel nervous going. to bed because it was going to be one of. those moments where we kind of both are. sat there thinking about it but we're. not saying anything to each other and. then if I fall asleep I'm going to. disappoint them but if I try it's going. to go badly so what the hell do I do yes.

pressure um is not good for our sex. lives and one of the challenges with. pressure is that when you think about. initiation it's often very much bound up. in pressure and perhaps we'll talk about. initiation in a second but actually the. foundation of those problems with. expectation and pressure is not being. able to talk about it okay because if. you think about it what we really want. to say is I'm feeling quite stressed. about the sex situation and the fact. that we don't talk about it means that.

those things are hanging between us and. we know with sex that one of the. fascinating things about it is like. other ways in which we learn we learn. about sex by what we witness in the. media and what we pick up from social. learning something psychologists call. social learning theory when it comes to. sex we don't witness how anyone else is. doing it really we only see what happens. on TV and what happens in porn and maybe.

hear from our friends but we don't. really know if they're telling the truth. or. not so what that means is we've all my. friends all lie about it yeah everyone. does they're all stallion in that now. I'm joking they're all very honest. there's actually a fascinating sex. research fact which is one of my. favorite facts which is that men uh when. they say the number of sexual partners. that they've had are more likely to. round it up to a zero or a five a number. ending in 05 I think that's a great sex. fact um so what that means then is is. that we're all living our sex lives.

based on something we call sexual script. Theory this is a concept that. organically came out of the work of some. sex researchers in the 70s called gagnan. and Simon and they discovered that. actually in the absence of talking about. sex we all have quite set ideas about. what our sex lives should look like and. we've picked this up from uh from the. media from how people talk about sex in. popular culture and and how we've Ed. language what this means is that we have. a set of ideas and this includes things.

like penis and vagina is the main cause. of sex and everything else isn't really. sex and language backs that up doesn't. it with the use of the word foreplay. kind of relegating any other type of sex. to less than and the use of the word. virginity which we only really use to. refer to penis and vagina sex so all of. these things tell us well that's what. real sex is and then you hear people. talking about that and backing that up. with things like well we did everything.

but which is like we didn't have sex you. did have sex because you were sexual. together so what happens with these. sexual scripts is that they benefit us. to some degree because they reduce our. anxiety that's what sexual scripts are. there for to give us some idea of what's. expected but what they do to us in the. absence of communication is they give us. an idea about what we should be doing or. what someone else wants to do without us. having to talk about it which often.

means that problems arise for examp one. of the examples you give in your book is. about orgasms yes and pornography giving. us a sexual script that men are. basically meant in a heterosexual. relationship men are meant to orgasm and. that there was some crazy stat from some. PornHub research yes yeah that's really. interesting research there was some. research that talked about depictions of. female pleasure and pleasure inducing. acts for women from the hund most. popular videos on PornHub and they found.

that um women's pleasure was shown in. about 18% of those top hund videos and. men's pleasure or act that produce. pleasure for men mainly around penis and. vagina sex because that's men's most. favorite sexual act it's women's least. favorite sexual act that was depicted in. about 78% of cases so it's quite. interesting then when you think about. the fact that we're learning from what. we see because what does that then tell.

us about what sex should look like about. when sex ends about whose pleasure is. prioritized and it's one of the reasons. that we have an orgasm Gap when men and. women have sex together because that's. how we learn about sex on that I just. want to pick up on two things you said. there that were really interesting to me. the first one was about us not talking. why we don't talk um it's very difficult. to talk about sex with your partner very. very difficult I've been there very.

difficult because the plethora of. reasons why you might not be functioning. well or enjoying it can often sound like. you're blaming them communication is so. important we know that being able to. talk about sex is one of the most highly. correlated factors with long-term sexual. satisfaction and relationship. satisfaction and maintaining desire over. time it's more important than the amount. you have set. liking the same thing sexually it's so.

important but it's so hard to do and we. know why it's hard right it's because. we're not socialized to talk about it. we're not often given the words that. feel comfortable we are out of practice. getting those words out of our mouth so. they feel kind of clumsy and. awkward there's a lot of worry and risk. involved what if I say this and they. don't like it and because of that it's. easier to avoid but the most fascinating. thing about about sex I think is that. it's constantly evolving for us so you.

and I we're not the same people sexually. than we were when we were 15 16 and we. won't be the same sexual people in. another 10 15 years than we are now so. we need to be able to have the ability. for growth right growth and flex in our. sexual relationships but how do you do. that if you can't talk about it it's a. bit like going to the hairdressers same. hairdresses for the rest of your life. and every you sit down not saying.

anything and just hoping that they'll. give you the haircut that you want you. wouldn't do it right and they. continually give you the bad you one and. you just keep coming back and you say. thanks and you tip them and you go so we. need to get better at talking about it. and it's not easy it's easy for me I. talk about it all day every day but I. know that that's not the norm and part. of the work that I do is to try and help. people try and give people the scaffold. to talk about it and I can talk you. through that if you like please so it. might be that the best place to start is.

to find out how people find talking. about challenging topics anyway with. their partner so if you can't talk about. other things outside of sex without it. going into an argument then it might be. worth just looking at communication full. stop forget sex for the moment just talk. about that are you creating some like. Rules of Engagement for how we. communicate you listen I express myself. absolutely and I always recommend the. Gans um I don't know if you know their. work I do yeah um I recommend them. because they have some great resources. around General communication it's.

important to have a good basis if you're. going to talk about sex but if people. can talk about other things and they. find it relatively easy to hear each. other and to share their kind of hopes. and fears then it might be useful to. start to create a culture where talking. about sex becomes the norm this is. always the place you want to end up. right we all want to end up with a. relationship culture that supports easy. communication about sex that's the. guaranteed route to sexual satisfaction. and to do that we have to make it.

something that we do frequently without. any pressure without any expectation. that something big has to change so an. early way to start that might be for. example to bring in some novelty in your. Communications about sex so people might. be listening to this podcast and they. might say oh how was your day today. great oh I heard this thing on Diary of. a CEO podcast and it was about. depictions of pleasure in porn and I. thought it was really interesting and it.

occurred to me we don't talk about porn. much you know is that something you'd be. open to talk about whether you watch it. whether you like it what you like that. might feel too much for some people and. it might be I heard a podcast about sex. and it talked about the importance of. talking and I thought we don't do that. much so there's ways of bringing it in. which are saying look this I think would. be good for us the key point is stating. the impact that you think it will have. so I would like like to talk more about. this because I heard it means you can.

guarantee great sex for the rest of your. life so I think that would be good for. us you know I'm committed to this. relationship I want our sex to stay. great this might be awkward for us but. can we do it so the starting point if. you're nervous is always to talk about. things outside of your sexual. relationship things you've heard on. podcasts films you saw with good sex. scenes in them bring things in rather. than talking about the two of you after. that if you get good at that it might be. worthwhile talking about your own sex. when it goes well so a good time to do.

this is after sex that's gone well or at. another time when you're feeling really. emotionally connected maybe you're out. for dinner maybe you're having a weekend. away and talk about what you really. liked and why okay so don't talk about. it when it's bad no no not at this stage. not at this stage if you feel confident. with that and you get into a habit of. talking about sex talking about what's. gone well talking about sex as if if. it's any other topic of conversation.

like business or exercise or Diet then. you might want to start to talk about. things you'd like to be different and in. an idal world I try and encourage. couples to have a kind of regular. practice of this so if you think about. your goals for your exercise your work. your diet often you'll set yourself. goals right and you might tell your. partner about them you know in six. months from now I want to do this or. this year I'm working on this it's quite. good to get into the habit of saying. where do we want our sex life to go how.

would we like things to be what do we. want to continue what do we want more of. and what do we want less of and that's a. really positive conversation you don't. need to talk about what you don't like. you're talking about what you want more. of instead what if the issue in your. sexual relationship is one of Attraction. and I I've asked a few guests this. because I think it's one of the the. hardest challenges to overcome and I. don't know in a clinical setting what.

you would say if you're sat there with. an individual and they're telling you. that the reason they aren't having sex. with Dave right now is because they're. no longer attracted to them what what is. their path forward there do they dump. Dave or do they go tell Dave it depends. how important sex is to them if it's. important say it's important and for. them a relationship they're in a. monogamous relationship so they can't. get sex elsewhere or they've agreed to. not get sex elsewhere and is important. then it's quite important that.

attraction is part of it um we know that. the sex science tells us that when. attraction is high at the beginning it's. really easy to maintain desire over time. when attraction is low it can be really. challenging It's Not Unusual for me to. see couples who've been together decades. with very low levels of Attraction but. the work they need to do to maintain a. sex life that works for them both is. tough so so you need to kind of have. your eyes open I guess about what you're.

signing up for if sex is important to. you then attraction is fairly important. I think it's also maybe useful to say. that attraction can work some Wayne and. it might be worth examining what's going. on there and whether you know there is a. certain situation that you find. yourselves in as a couple or whether. they're at the moment going through some. stuff that maybe makes it harder for you. to see them in that light yeah sometimes. attraction can come back when those. relationship contexts are worked on but.

if it's never been there from the outset. if it's a very strong sense of a lack of. Attraction if someone's eyes have. already moved to someone else then it. may be useful to address it and. attraction's not just a physical thing. people think of Attraction as being. physical it's a psychological thing as. well absolutely absolutely and you know. attraction can vary in relationships. depending on what's happening in the. relationship Dynamic so a common thing. that I've written about in the new book. it's to book for parents really is. around the dynamic of what it feels like.

to have a partner who feels like a. another child so the idea that you might. be having to care for them as well you. know make their lunches kind of buy. their clothes um tidy up after them that. we know from sex research that's a super. unsexy Dynamic and that is something. which often falls on women in straight. relationships once kids arrive and that. kind of dynamic can shift attraction and. may well shift back if that Dynamic is.

addressed so your new book is called how. not to let having kids ruin your sex. life that's right why did you title it. that I just thought let's say what it is. and that's exactly what it is it's a. guide to not let having kids ruin your. sex life does that tend to happen kids. so oh yeah so it's so common sexual. dissatisfaction is that it's lowest for. couples in the period after having kids. so if you've got an under five-year-old. at home it's pretty likely that your sex. life is suffering for it it doesn't have.

to but many of the kind of reasons why. our sex life struggles when kids come. along are um amplifications of dynamics. that we struggle with outside of kids so. for example quite often but of course. not always people are in a long-term. relationship quite often they're living. together being in a long-term. relationship and living together are two. factors which reduce your desire over. time so you've already you're already. starting from that point you may have.

also been trying to conceive you might. have had problems with fertility with. miscarriage sex might have got boring. but you might have had to do it anyway. you've then got pregnancy which for some. people is a golden time of sexual. exploration but for some people means. for one reason or another they don't. have much sex and then you're expecting. to get back to your sexual life when. you've getting no sleep when you're. stressed and when you've got another. kind of 37 40 hours of work a week to do. which is the parenting week so there's. so many reasons why it's challenging and.

that's why I wrote the book is there a a. certain demographic of person that. you're most likely to see in your. clinical practice and is it is it. parents I see people of all ages I see I. probably see people mostly in long-term. relationships I think people know that. desire is my specialist subject so. people tend to seek me out particularly. around desire um I see a lot of parents. I also see a lot of non-parents but you. know Parenthood brings additional child. Alles for people to navigate even if you. think about the time available to have.

sex it's much more limited it can be. really difficult to initiate when you. initiate it the other person might. experience it as a really clumsy. initiation when they've got a lot on. their plate these are all just as I said. amplifications of what you might get in. long-term relationships generally but it. tends to be the more challenging wedge. of the. pie desire this idea of Desire is really. fascinating to me I actually speak to. one of my best friends about. um what we call Desire management and it.

was a theory that we developed based on. just looking at both of our lives and. how we' manag to maintain sexual desire. in our respective relationships he has. an approach to dating which we all laugh. at him for where he meets someone and he. moves them in really really quickly like. moves them in it's a very like. smothering approach to like finding Love. and Desire very quickly goes out the. window whereas I'm probably the opposite. of that where in my current relationship. with it was a longdistance relationship. for 2 years she lived on the other side. of the world eventually in maybe year.

three or something we like moved in. together but we're still we still both. fly all over the world so we don't see. each other much which I think is proven. to be quite Central to our desire. management we don't see each other much. and that's that's the theory of Desire. management keep some distance keep keep. the right amount of distance there's. probably absolutely there's probably two. too far away and too in frequently. seeing them and then there's seeing them. too much absolutely it's a great Theory. so desire is possibly one of the most. fascinating aspects of sex that is.

grossly misunderstood by our kind of. collective psyche and it's quite. interesting because if you ask most. people um on the street how desire works. or what desire is they'll tell you that. we have such a thing as a sex drive or. libido which kind of comes into our mind. and tells us it would be a good idea to. have sex that is an idea that came from. sex science in the 50s and 60s when we. believed that desire was the first part.

of the sexual response cycle so you you. first had the idea to be sexual and then. you acted on it and that's kind of. seeped down into our Collective psyche. and that's how we all operate our sex. lives we generally wait to feel like it. and then we act on it but actually we. now know that desire doesn't work like. that and that in the early stages of a. relationship or if we live apart there's. your desire management we manage to. maintain higher levels of that kind of.

Desire it's called spontaneous desire. and it happens when a partner is novel. or less familiar to us or perhaps when. our Dynamic with them isn't diluted by. other roles so for your friend that. moves someone in that person then. becomes a. flatmate so that the role of them as a. sexual partner is diluted for other. people it's diluted also by being a. co-parent so our brain starts to see. that person less as a sexual object. this is an inevitable part of being with.

someone for a number of years and we can. pretty much guarantee that for most. people spontaneous desire will start to. decline about a year or 18 months into a. relationship obviously it depends how. often you see each other and it sounds. like your desire management fantastic. might keep that going a bit longer for. most people they have this experience. and we know that this happens for. everyone but that women struggle to. maintain this more than men so in the UK. we know that 34% of women and 15% of men.

are worried that they don't feel like. sex enough and that's because they've. seen a drop in the spontaneous desire we. talked about sexual scripts earlier and. we talked about how we learn about sex. from what we see the way desire is. represented to us in the media is lust. passion. spontaneity that sexual urge that you. absolutely have to act on and yes that. is how it works for some of us some of. the time perhaps after we've not seen.

each other for a long time perhaps at. the start of a relationship and for some. people you know lifelong with the same. person but it's not the norm actually. what the norm is is that that type of. Desire tends to diminish and it's other. motivations other than horniness that. we're seeking out through sex so we call. these nonsexual motivations and there. may be things like wanting to feel close. stress relief wanting to feel desire. ired um wanting to demonstrate love or.

affection wanting to have fun um out of. a sense of obligation because it's been. a while these are all nonsexual. motivations which lead us to the. behavior of. sex the problem is a lot of people are. waiting to feel like it before they act. on it and for those people they're. waiting a really long time we know that. for women particularly uh it should be. considered normal to never feel like sex. out of the blue with your long-term.

partner never how do we know that from. sex research so when we ask women how. often do you feel like sex with your. partner they say either never or maybe. once or twice a month this is. spontaneous. desire but we're asking the question. about only one type of Desire responsive. desire is desire that emerges out of us. beginning sexual activity or or having. what we call sexual stimuli in front of. us a passionate kiss a flirtation being.

naked together um a text that suggests. something that we might do later. on the later versions of sex research. tell us that actually desire emerges out. of being sexual okay so it comes from. doing something to trigger it but if. your understanding of Desire is that you. should wait until you feel like it. there's a large proportion of people in. longterm relationships that are just. never feeling like it and never doing.

anything about it what we need to do. instead is be aware that our desire can. be triggered and find ways to trigger it. and have a relationship context that. supports triggering it in that context. we know that people's desire works. perfectly well that means they can have. desire feature as much as they want in. their relationship just by knowing how. desire works so our brains code things. as sexual and this could be physical. touch it could be kiss it could be being.

naked together it could be the sight of. someone's naked body it could be a. suggestive text it's different for. everybody but essentially sexual content. triggers our arousal which triggers our. desire it's the reason why the most. common thing people say to me in Sex. Therapy is I didn't really feel like it. but we had sex and it was great and. afterwards I said why don't we do that. more that's responsive desire it emerges. out of sexual activity the problem of. long-term relationships is that we see a. decline in what I call sexual currency.

so how we relate to each other as sexual. beings we start to see sex a bit like an. onoff switch so we're either having sex. or the rest of the time we're not being. sexual together you know we're not. passionately kissing unless it's part of. sex we're not sending each other those. flirty messages we us to do at the. beginning we're not spending time. lounging around in bed on a Sunday. morning being naked together in a way. that might kickstart. desire so these low levels of sexual.

currency and these high levels of. familiarity seeing the same person every. day means our brains just don't code. them as sexual stimuli in the same way. and then we go cheat or we go look for. porn or something else yeah absolutely. because we want to have that kind of. frison of excitement can I just clarify. that sexual currency this definition. basically means if I think this of this. in a financial context. if you see someone as being highly. sexually desirable they have a high.

sexual currency in your mind not quite. okay so think currency more like charge. oh okay like a thatp yeah so sexual. currency my definition of it would be. it's everything that you do that marks. you out as a sexual couple apart from. having sex so this is the stuff that you. wouldn't do with your friends you. wouldn't do with your family you. wouldn't do with your kids so you're. physically affectionate with all those. people right M but the seual side of it. the passionate kissing the bum grabs the.

flirtation the saying you look super hot. in that top these things are sexual. currency so if we think about our sex. lives not as this onoff switch of the. you know 18 minutes that's the average. for men and women when they have sex. together it's 18 minutes of having sex. however often you're doing it if you. think of your sexual relationship as. something which is always happening. something which you're always nurturing. you can imagine the power that that can. have on both triggering desire but also.

Meeting those sexual needs I'll give you. an example that I wrote about in the new. book actually um because parents. obviously have limited time available to. have sex and raising sexual currency is. one of the ways you can increase sexual. satisfaction even when you can't have. any more sex so if you think about an. example of um a straight couple whereby. he is feeling that her lack of interest. in sex means that she doesn't desire him. as much as she used to and he's worried. about that because for him that means.

the relationship is in crisis uh she. might look elsewhere and also he doesn't. feel so good about himself he wants to. feel desired we all do right he gave me. an example of a time when they perhaps. attended a function and they were in the. lift and as they went up in the lift to. get to this function she pushed him. against the lift and kissed him really. passionately for the 10 seconds they. were in the lift and then they got out. the lift and They carried on with the. function. this is sexual currency and that made. him feel more desired more connected to.

her sexually than a week before the sex. they had that felt like going through. the motions so you've got something. which meets your sexual needs which. makes you feel desired attractive close. like a sexual couple like you've got. some sexual secret between you that no. one else can see sexual currency does. all of that but it also acts as. scaffolding to help us move easily into. sex because we talked about expect. expectation and pressure earlier and if. you have high levels of sexual currency.

there's low pressure for it to go. anywhere because it is your sexual. relationship for its own right it's not. someone initiating sex the way to. overcome this potential psychological. barrier is to create a culture of low. pressure between you you say that sex. should be trivial and often not rare and. crucial absolutely yeah soal and often I. always know that my work with couples is. done when they find it really easy to. invite each other into sex and really. easy to turn each other down because.

what happens when uh we have low levels. of sexual currency and when sex has. become an issue is that everything's. riding on initiation so the person. initiating Waits they they ignore all. the other times they want to initiate it. because it's quite stressful and they. wait until the time it really matters. maybe it's an anniversary or a weekend. away or something where it feels like. you should have sex and they initiate it. and there's so much riding on it that. the other person knows there's so much. writing on it they feel pressure. pressure is a desire killer it doesn't.

happen and then the initiation will be. even rarer moving forward more pressure. for more pressure exactly what we want. instead is a kind of trivial and often. way of sexually relating high levels of. sexual currency high levels of. initiation so you find it easy to say to. your partner by the way at work today I. was thinking about doing this to you. when when we get home and your partner. can say that sounds really hot if only I. didn't have this meeting tomorrow on my. mind let's come back to that on the.

weekend so you can let somebody know. that sex is on your mind you can invite. someone into something which might be a. passionate kiss might be let's go to bed. early and talk about our day knowing. that that is sexual stimuli which might. trigger arousal and desire but also it. acts as a way of. triggering that um initiation it makes. it easy to initiate if you're doing it. often and if there's low pressure do you. think you should schedule sex no never. ever schedule sex cuz you said let's.

come back to on the weekend I was. thinking that's just ruin the weekend. I'd like to I like it to be spicy and. spontaneous so um it's one of our sexual. scripts that sex spontaneous sex is. better and I don't necessarily agree. with that but I do agree with the idea. that scheduling sex just creates. pressure for everyone how can you in. advance agree to something that you. don't know if you're going to feel like. when you get there and all that does is. create pressure what you should do. though in today's day and age is. schedule physical intimacy schedule some.

type of sexual currency because we're so. busy if you don't do that when is it. going to happen the issue I have though. is if I schedule physical intimacy MH. then okay and I keep doing that. eventually the expectation comes in that. we have sex after the physical intimacy. it's also the same thing with like date. night if you're parents and you get one. date night a week we all know when we. need to get this we need to make this. thing happen so it becomes scheduling.

sex because you're scheduling date night. once a week you know what I mean yeah so. you've got two options haven't you one. is that you wait until it's really high. pressure and you don't initiate it very. often you wait for this date night I. don't know once a week once a month and. everyone knows there's all kinds of. stuff riding on it and that makes it. possibly the worst set of circumstances. to for everyone to feel like sex lots of. high pressure sex that might feel. formulaic everyone's distracted means. they can't get into it it's not great. sex the other option is that you keep.

high levels of sexual currency and you. try your best to schedule brief moments. of physical intimacy which could act as. scaffolding to take it further you're. right in that you may start to build up. an expectation that oh every time we say. we'll have a bath together we end up. having sex that might happen but when. you invite someone into the bath you are. inviting them into the bath right so. you're not inviting them saying let's. have a bath and have sex afterwards. you're saying do you fancy having a bath.

together the fact that you both know. where the bath might lead is fine. because it allows you to get into that. head space Oh okay I hadn't thought. about sex tonight but the bath might. lead to sex so let me get into a sexual. head space for a minute so that's quite. useful the problem comes when you say to. them afterwards you said you wanted a. bath and we've not had sex well that. wasn't what you invited them into you. invited them into the B so you have to. be okay if it doesn't lead to that but. if you initiate these types of things.

more if you think about it scattergun. approach more of them are likely to go. where you want them to go versus that. one time of high pressure if you were to. give me a couple of pieces of simple. advice on how to keep desire high in my. relationship what would you say I would. say kiss more kiss for kissing's sake. okay kiss kissing often falls off the. agenda in longterm. relationships the number of times I see. that um with couples I'm working with.

who've been together decades they only. kiss as part of sex or as initiation of. sex so kissing is a great way of. triggering Desire it's also a great way. of getting our sexual needs met so that. would be one the second would be you. have to make time to schedule physical. intimacy of some type because remember. that desire is triggered by that kind of. sexual stimul whether it's um getting. naked on the couch and watching film. together that you know it's got good sex. scenes in it whether it's massage. whether it's the bath whether it's um.

some kind of date night that involves. use of your bodies without that there. are no triggers to your desire so you're. just kind of waiting to feel it the. third is understand how desire works. it's drastically different than what. you've been sold and you're normal if. you struggle to get in the head space. sometimes what about distance and you. know this idea of like you talked about. how they kind of your partner can lose. their sexual currency if they become a. carer or you know I've heard before if.

they become like too much of a mom or a. dad in your mind and they stop becoming. a sort of sexual partner relationship. Dynamics are quite fascinating U as you. say because when we talk about them we. often hear things like well obviously if. you're experiencing great amount of. relationship conflict it's going to. affect your sex life I mean that's of. course right we all know that to be true. but actually it's the subtle dyam. dynamics that are quite important it's. um having distance from each other and.

being able to bring in novelty and. newness a bit like you do with kind of. having that that physical distance but. it's also an emotional separation isn't. it because you're having experiences. separately and then coming back together. to talk about them it's also about what. roles you might get typ cast into in. your relationship so something I talk. about often is the idea that when we. have sex with the same person for a long. time we can start to feel as though.

there's only one way for us to be. sexually and that's the way they're kind. of expecting us to be so it can feel. quite suffocating and sometimes that's. the reason that people go outside of a. monogamous relationship is because they. want to experience themselves. differently they want to be a different. person sexually and because they can't. talk to their partner about that and. they feel typ cast in that Dynamic you. know you're the dominant one I'm not or. um the sex that we have is really kind. of sensual and caring and I want it to. be passionate and. animalistic it's really difficult you.

must come across so many couples in um. your clinical practice that have two. different visions of what sex should. look like yes fantasies fetishes you. know this one wants this person to do. this to me but this person thinks that's. you know horrific MH how does one bridge. the gap and how does one go about even. communicating those things because I. imagine so many people in so many. relationships it's kind of like what you. said earlier having really bad haircuts. having really bad sex and I saying. nothing about it and oh yeah I've been. in relationships before where I've.

thought you know what I really want to. do that but I think she'll think that. I'm a little bit you know trust me no. one is talking about it everyone stays. silent and just hopes that the other. person will either get the hint or will. accidentally stumble upon the thing they. really want them to do it is fascinating. really when you think about it because. so much of our satisfaction our life. satisfaction depends on how sex goes but. we just almost leave it to Chance by not. talking about it one of the things we. might do in Sex Therapy is by getting. people separately to write down what.

their perfect sex looks like um I have a. um an exercise it's actually free you. can find it on my social media or my. website which is called conditions for. good sex which guides people through the. process of doing that and it looks at. three main areas one is psychological. arousal what turns you on in your head. what kind of dynamic between you and the. person works for you how do you need to. feel about yourself and your Optimum. sexual experience one is physical. stimulation and that could be anything. from where you like to be touched to the. types of sex you like to um the type of.

positions you like to be in the third is. being able to be in the moment so you. might right there the kinds of things. that go through your mind to distract. you and I would get people to do that. separately um the way I guide people. through that is by getting them to think. about their three best sexual. experiences and really replay those in. their mind what were the aspects of that. sexual experience which you play over. and over again what was it about how you. felt about yourself about how you could.

be with that person what was it about. what you were doing what was it about. the environment and people are able to. then develop their own perspective their. own um list if you like of the things. that really work for. them what if your partner says I don't. like it well that's what we come to next. then we look for the overlap so is there. overlap if there's not then there's a. little bit of work to do right are you. going to stay in a monogamous. relationship and if so how are you going. to make this work are you going to open.

it up so you can get your sexual needs. met elsewhere plenty of people do that. often there is enough overlap for people. to say okay I didn't realize that that. was a thing for you I don't I like that. thing but maybe not quite to that degree. can we do this instead so there's a. little bit of negotiation that happens. in the middle but I think perhaps one of. the myths around our sexuality is that. it exists between us and our partner and. actually our sexuality just exists. within us alone and we should be allowed. to express that alone or in our minds in.

whatever way that we want and that could. look quite different what we do alone. perhaps with others to what we do with. another person so we don't have to get. all of our sexual needs met by that one. person there may be other ways of doing. it should we remain open-minded to the. um desires and requests of the other I I. remember you know I like experimenting. you know and I think I was once upon a. time with someone who was less Keen to. experiment and I remember think oh this.

is boring this is going to be really. boring and then over time I think I was. able to introduce things slowly that. open their eyes to experimentation and. they love they love experimentation we. had the best sex of Our Lives okay. because we introduced things we. experimented more but um I I remember. reflecting in that moment that I could. have easily walked away from the. relationship when this person said oh no. that's weird I don't want to do that. yeah and it may be that if this other. person had done their conditions for. good sex they may have written down. under the psychological arousal part I.

really need to know someone or I really. need to trust someone before I can do. things that are outside of the normal. sexual script right sense and. experimentation could be part of that um. I think it also comes down to how you. want the kind of personality of your sex. life together to be so I think for some. of us um experiencing kind of thrill or. joy or pushing boundaries or. experimentation in sex is a key part of.

what really tis ticks us along what. really keeps us going for other people. it's just not it's it's that they want. sex to be predictable um intimate fun. but close without anything outside of. the ordinary so I think it can be quite. useful to think about what do we see as. the sexual personality of our. relationship how do we how do we want it. to be what would make us feel most alive. and that's where creat a culture of. talking about sex is helpful because. without that how do you know earlier you.

used a phrase you said it's when we were. talking about vaginal um penetration you. said it's women's least favorite act yes. it is yeah so we talked about sexual. scripts um penis and vagina sex being. the main course of sex is very much a. dominant sexual script and there are. many reasons that's dominant and it's. something that we know from sex research. that if you ask people and they have. done many times in sex research to. recount what sex looks like people will. recount a set menu of sex that is you.

start with this then you do a bit of. that then you go to the main course of. penis and vagina sex um the kind of. American audience will know that as a. kind of baseball analogy and I think. worldwide we know that analogy too right. that's how we see how sex should be but. what's Most Fascinating about that is. that suits men's Anatomy more than. women's we know that the majority of. women about 80% um don't orgasm from. penetrative sex because obviously it's.

all about the clitoris and so that's why. for women their most favorite sexual. acts are things like people using their. hands to stimulate their clitoris or. receiving oral sex not penis and vagina. sex they rate rate that the least. pleasure inducing sexual. act for men it's different it's the. highest pleasure inducing sexual act. right alongside masturbation actually. what's f fascinating is we talk a lot. about desire particularly between men. and women when they have sex together.

but we don't always talk about the fact. that to move towards sex we have to be. motivated to feel that there's going to. be a reward and so when we're having sex. that perhaps doesn't suit our anatomy as. much as we'd like it to or when there's. a big orgasm Gap and someone else is. reliably experiencing more pleasure than. we are of course our desire. suffers does it we've used the word. initiate a lot does it matter who. initiates. it doesn't matter but we know that the. person initiating often experiences.

higher levels of sexual satisfaction in. the encounter than the person who's. following there are some really. interesting things with initiation and I. actually think that when it comes to sex. with long-term Partners when it comes to. many of the couples that I see people. often walk through the door saying. there's a problem with desire sometimes. there is it's usually in their. understanding of Desire not desire. itself but often it's an initiation. actually because if you think about it.

initiation is a. communication you're basically saying. I'd like to have sex now would you and. there are a variety of ways that people. initiate and in my experience they can. be wildly off theark so one scenario is. that the person initiates and it's so. subtle that the other person just. doesn't pick up on it at all and it's. quite difficult to put yourself out. there with initiation right so people. test the waters with this coded subtle.

I'll put my hands there and and they'll. know what that means and often that is. completely missed by the other person. and so the opportunity for sex is. lost the other side of the coin is when. people initiate in a really direct way. so um we know that women having sex with. men initiate much more directly and when. men are initiating with women or when. women are initiating with women they. initiate much more indirectly so this. direct initiation from women to men.

often looks like should we have sex. then do you fancy a shag that kind of. thing which although it's direct and you. could give it points for being direct. communication people say that all the. time time all the time they say it it's. direct it's getting a point across but. it's inherently. unsexy and it's quite interesting. because the social script of men are. always up for sex means that in women's.

Minds often they can just say that and. that will do it for their partner yeah. and actually that's not the case and. what we know from research is that most. men actually say I need a bit more than. that I need to feel intimacy I need to. feel desired I need to feel as though. she's initiating it because she's. enthusiastic about doing it not because. she's doing it for me we also know that. people fall into styles of initiation. and just in the same way that I.

mentioned getting typ cast around how. you are sexually with a partner you can. get typ cast in terms of how you. initiate so there might be one way that. you do it always the same always and. maybe it was cute for the first six. months but in month 60 it starts to. become quite irritating it starts to. become not a sexual trigger but oh here. we go again yeah unsexy it's kind of. like yeah predictable yeah pressure so. it can be a really useful thing to have. a conversation with somebody else.

somebody you're having sex with around. how you actually like sex to be. initiated and whether that matches with. how each other does it you know what's. interesting when we think about sex and. what we assume it must be like we all. have a bit of an idea in our head maybe. from pornography or something else or. movies that it should just flow yes that. it should just you know and so when our. sex doesn't flow we think something is. broken and wrong with it m we should we. just walk in hi babe how's work oh off.

we go we're off to the like every day. and it should happen every every other. night um and if it's not flowing and. happening every other night we think we. need to go and like yeah you know fix. this someone's to blame something's. wrong with me or him or so let's come. back to frequency because that's a big. one but before we get on to. that occupying the space in between. willingness so that's a nice idea that. I've had or you've had but I'm not there. yet and desire when your desire kicks in.

is actually quite an uncomfortable space. to occupy and one of the things I like. to do in in my work with people is to. try and help them get comfortable in. that space because as you say we have. this idea that we should be feeling it. before we start that's wrong we know. that now but also that it should be easy. for us just to slip into that sexual. head space to lose that awkwardness to. lose that sense of I don't actually know. if I'm going to feel like it I might do. can we just continue what we're doing. and I'll see occupying that space in. between willingness and desire is really.

a key part of initiation because if you. initiate with shall we have sex it. doesn't really give you a chance to see. if you can occupy that space does it you. have either have to say yes or no do you. know think it's harder for men as well. in some regards because like we got to. get you know the Eiffel Tower up in in. in a heteros sexual relationship there's. like it's very easy to see if the man is. aroused whereas it's less obvious I mean. it is there's ways to tell obviously yes.

without getting too detailed but it's. it's so clear if the man is aroused. there's no hiding it for all of us our. body's arousal response and the degree. with which we're turned on in our minds. so desire don't actually always match as. much as we'd like them to so I don't. know if you've ever had this experience. or any of your listeners have but it can. be quite common for men to want to be. getting in a sexual head space or. actually be feeling desire but not be. hard and because it's a visual sign.

sometimes their Partners whether they're. male or female Partners can take that. really personally MH what does that mean. about me I I'm going to be honest. because that's the whole point of this. podcast was I've had multiple times in. my life where I've not been able to get. an erection and uh it's so awward and. it's the minute they realize that you. you're not going to be able to get an. erection. what do I say you know what do I say. yeah I'm so glad you mentioned it. because it's so common and it's common.

because this is called arousal. non-concordance so an idea that our. bodies don't always do what our brains. are thinking so you might think you want. to have sex but your body doesn't always. respond and that happens for people of. all genders it's just more challenging. for people with penises right because. you can see it that's I'm saying yeah so. it brings with it that extra level of. pressure as soon as you've got that. pressure then as we know your attention. goes elsewhere your worry increases that. turns down arousal like turning down the. tv less chance of inter rection so can I.

ask then what do I do in that moment and. what should they do as in like how do. they help me in that very embarrassing. moment and what do I say yeah so they. first need to understand that no. erection doesn't mean that you don't. want to have sex it might sometimes of. course but if you're saying look I'm I'm. really Keen for this I'm just not there. yet then they need to take that at face. value okay that's really important. otherwise you end up feeling as though. it's a judgment on your attraction or. your desire for them which it's not um.

the second thing. is there needs to be less focus on the. need for the penis to be hard and that. comes from delineating this idea of this. set menu of sex which means a hard penis. has to be part of it there's plenty of. other things that you could do sexually. if you're feeling like you want to be. sexual which will move your attention. back to sexual things things that might. really turn you on so for example giving. oral sex is often something that a lot. of men say really turn them on obviously.

it's not for everyone vibrator out yeah. all kinds of things watching someone. else's sexual pleasure can really turn. us on for some people it's really hard. for them to get used to um enjoying. sensation when their penis is soft they. they kind of want to avoid it be great. if they didn't and they could be. comfortable with enjoying that touch. even then but it might mean moving. moving your attention to another person. what usually happens then is that at. some point it comes back MH but it only. comes back if you don't worry about it.

and if you don't put pressure on it that. has to be not just about you it has to. be about the person you're with as well. because you know if they're oh never. mind then we'll just do it another time. okay so that's really interesting so the. foundation of all of that though is. communication absolutely because without. that if if I go flatted and then I don't. say anything about it and I just lay. there like dormant and then she's laying. there dormant and then we try and go to. sleep and then we never address we never. get to communicate cuz maybe I did want. to have sex but maybe for some reason my.

to-do list was still on my mind exactly. and notice that the Assumption behind it. is that the sex that you're going to. have is penis and vagina penetration is. that even what she wants and if we could. initiate sex in a way that was clearer. if we could say to our partners easily. um and really horny what I'd really like. to do is X and it all be about me are. you up for that that's quite different. if we're able to be clear about that. what would that do to your confidence.

with your actions does that make sense. if she'd actually gone into that sexual. encounter saying you know what all I. want you to do is make me come I'm I'm. I'm not I not feel like penetrative sex. tonight if she'd felt confident to say. that I can guarantee there would have. been no problem with the erection the. erection would have come as part of it. because the whole process would have. been arousing this is a bit of a left. field one but I just remembered a debate. me and my friends had in our little like. mates. chat is it better to have sex before or.

after you eat because he was like oh no. I this I thought this was weird he was. like I have sex before we go on the date. I'm like what you have sex before the. day he was like yeah no sex after no sex. after food that is a good idea to be. fair a lot of people say they struggle. really when they're full they feel quite. unsexy they feel a bit lethargic they. feel a bit bloated they don't feel great. about their body perhaps um a lot of. people do that if they're going to have. a date night I mean I never like date.

nights because I think by the time you. get home from a date night you've maybe. had a bit to drink you've maybe had a. bit to eat it's maybe quite late it's. not the best conditions for having sex. actually I'd rather if you had a date. night you kept it on fun emotional. connection relationship satisfaction and. then you plan an in at home date night. that's more about physical intimacy okay. do you know what I mean because it's not. it's not that easy to do the two so your. friend's probably right probably before. food is better but you want to come back. to frequency sure yeah because we talked.

about that earlier and this is one of. the big myths that people talk about. around sex life which is that the amount. of sex that you have matters and it. really. doesn't so what I mean by that is that. if you ask most people how often they. should be having sex a week I mean what. do you think they would say your friends. or people on the street how much they. should be having sex yeah a week a month. how much do you think they'd say three. times a week everyone says three times a. week really it's this kind of urban myth.

that again forms part of our sexual. scripts if we're not having sex three. times a week there's a problem it's. actually drastically different than that. the average times people in in the UK. and actually it's kind of replicated. around the world but what's fascinating. is that we're using frequency as a yard. stick of a good sex life and there is no. correlation between the fre frequency of. sex and sexual satisfaction none. whatsoever so you're saying it's quality. over quantity absolutely you could be.

having sex you know once a year that. completely blows your socks off makes. you feel alive makes you feel super. connected um that's really exploratory. where you lose yourself in it and that. is better than having sex once a day. where you're not enjoying it your mind's. not in it it's not pleasurable you're. feeling disconnected you're feeling. awkward so it's so interesting that we. get so hung up on frequency in fact the. average amount of times people are. having sex in the UK If people are.

interested is around about three times a. month but there is huge amount of. variation there so plenty of people in. relationships that haven't had sex for. months and I'm quite happy with that and. plenty of people having sex more but I. think having that average is quite. useful to talk about because actually. it's a it's quite surprisingly different. to how most people perceive it should be. over 40% of women want to be having more. sex than they are currently having which.

is in chapter two of this book in front. of me mind the gap MH what about men so. women are women want to be having over. 40% of them want to be having more sex. than they're currently having yeah. there's there's huge levels of sexual. dissatisfaction for people of all. genders everyone wants to be having more. sex better sex than they're currently. having we know that for women it's. around about what just over half of. women 52% and for men it's about 42% are. unhappy with the sex lives that they. have enormous numbers that's UK data. 15,000 adults between the ages men are.

typically more satisfied yeah and I. suggest that the reason for that is that. although men experience challenges with. desire as well men find it easier on. average to maintain desire for the same. person and as we've already talked about. women struggle to access their. spontaneous desire and label that as a. problem when it's not you know I'm aware. we're talking very much about straight. couples because that's where we see the. majority of sexual problems but when we. talk about men and women having sex. together we also see that orgasm Gap so.

we see less pleasure and less reward for. women which I think accounts for that. slightly higher number so you said. something in between there that was. curious to me just to confirm over. long-term relationships the man is more. likely to maintain their desire for the. woman in a heterosexual relationship. that's right the woman is more likely to. lose desire for her partner that's right. and we're talking here remember about. spontaneous desire okay okay is that. remember there there the responsive. desire we talked about earlier and we.

know that this is the interesting bit. when it comes to women's desire it's. actually much more easier to trigger. with a wide range of sexual stimuli than. men's so women's responsive desire works. brilliantly you could say it works even. better than men's so spontaneous desire. is only one type of Desire it's that. feeling of out of the blue lust. horniness want to rip your clothes off. it's partly attributable to to higher. levels of androgens like testosterone. but certainly not exclusively there's a. massive social component to it as well.

so yes men find it easier to maintain. that um but I think it's really. important to say because there will be. men listening to this that will be. worried about their desire as we've said. earlier 15% is actually quite a large. number it's not all men some men really. struggle to keep hold of that. spontaneous desire in a long-term. relationship and just to clarify the. reactive desire is the desire that kicks. in once you've begun basically yeah some. kind of sexual stimuli some kind of. sexual. currency um it comes after. arousal I want to close off on the.

subject of parents um I'm not a parent. yet but my brother has three kids and. they're under the age of six they're six. and under he's got three of them I'm. going to send in my book yes I'm going. I'm sure he's he's going to listen. anyway um and from that I've I've been. able to understand on a surface level. the plight of a parent sleep um kids. waking up in the middle of the night. work pressures a lot of people are. working at home now as well so that that.

has impacts on sleep and how you're. feeling and your mental health and all. those things and to think that couples. irrespective of children are struggling. with sex you you said at the start of. this conversation but it says in your. book as well that we're having less and. less sex um when you compare one decade. to the previous decade and there was. another study that I saw that said. there's been General declines in sexual. frequency in other count around the. world as well like Japan Australia. Finland and the USA mhm so we know that. like we're we're having less sex with.

each other anyway and then you throw. kids into the mix which I just I don't. know I've not been there yet so I've not. crossed that bridge but I'm trying to. figure out when I do come to that bridge. how on Earth I'm going to be able to. have sexual desire when I'm a very busy. CEO running multiple businesses. traveling all over the world seeing my. partner currently not very much you know. and trying to make those moments where. we do spend time together special then. you throw in little Timmy who's. going and he's not going to care about.

my schedule no and to it's going to. become my priority for rightfully so if. he behaves himself and then where sex. going to go where you know yeah this is. why it's it's a real challenge for. parents and I think one of the key. things one of the reasons I wrote the. book actually is because the first thing. that we can do for parents is talk about. the fact that it's normal okay it's not. you it's not your relationship it's. nothing about the two of you together. that means you shouldn't be together. it's challenging to have a good sex life. when you've got young kids at home it's.

challenging for everyone I think the. second thing that we can do is explain. to people what the factors are that tend. to make a difference. so people know about pregnancy people. know about trying to conceive they. understand that these things will impact. on their sex life but I think the things. that they don't acknowledge or don't. realize as much is the trajectory that. that sets them on in the early stages. and the trajectory that that first year. of having a newborn baby will set you on.

in terms of that reduction in sexual. currency in terms of resentments that. might start to breed and how your. relationship Dynamic becomes in terms of. how equal the mental load is and we know. that the mental load so that's kind of. the unequal division of labor which. often falls on women in heterosexual. relationships particularly when kids. come along we know that there's a direct. correlation between couples who divide. that household labor in a kind of.

Equitable and transparent way and sexual. satisfaction so it seems quite hard to. believe but actually it doesn't have to. be completely equal but if you feel as. though your partner is pulling their. weight if you feel as though it's not. all automatically falling to you we know. that people generally tend to have. better sex so there's all kinds of. things which parents need to know about. their sex life that they don't is that. about resentment though is that yeah. it's resentment and it's about what I. mentioned earlier about seeing your. partner almost as a third child you're.

you're you're the captain of the house. right you're the boss of the house and. you have to hold in your mind everything. you're the CEO of the house you have to. hold in your mind everything that needs. doing even for your partner yeah that. they they're not holding anything. they're not remembering the kids'. birthdays they're not thinking they need. to buy a present you're having to do. that that takes your attention away from. sex and it also raises your resentment. and sexual satisfaction can really. suffer but there are a few other things. that I like to talk about in the book. that I think are really important for.

parents and one of them is I compare the. Journey of Parenthood a little bit like. um a kind of navigation across the seas. right so Parenthood is the storm and. it's a storm for everyone and there are. different phases of the storm and some. of it you just need to Baton down the. hatches and get through it as unscathed. as you can and not worry about sex so. much that might be like the newborn. phase but then there are also parts of. the journey where you might have found. yourself knocked off course a little bit. and what you actually need to do is take.

stock of the boat and say hold on what. what's going on here what are we doing. if we continue on this trajectory 10 15. years down the line we're likely to be. in a place where sex is. unrecoverable versus if we make a small. change a degree or two to the left or. right very small changes over the long. term we might end up in an entirely. different destination. and so the book is all about what are. those small changes and this might be. surprising to some people it's not. having more sex it's other ways of.

increasing sexual satisfaction so for. example we know that when we turn each. other down gently for sex it increases. sexual satisfaction we know that when we. increase sexual currency which doesn't. have to take much time we increase. sexual satisfaction so there are many. things that people can do even if they. don't feel they have time or head space. for sex or until they have the time and. head space for sex that can just keep. that boat kind of heading in the right.

direction what about what's the. relationship there with sleep and sex. then because obviously if if I've got. little Timmy crying at night time at. 3:00 a.m. uh I'm going to be poorly. slept the next day which means will that. have an impact on how horny I am yes. yeah big relationship between sleep and. sex for all of us we know that if you. get a good night's sleep your chances of. having sex the next day increase by 14%. so that's for all of us when it comes to. parents there is some quite interesting. data about the impact of nighttime.

waking on your sex life we know that the. number of times you get up in the night. to tends to a child like to go to the. cot or the bed to see to a crying child. the number of times you get up has an. impact on what's happening in your sex. life and for your desire so we tend to. see the more times you get up the less. happy you are with your sex life and the. reason for that is because not not. getting a good night's sleep disrupts um. how the body responds to sexual response. so how the chemicals in the body that.

help us be prepared for arousal to build. but also it's the cognitive distraction. of being woken up by something quite. upsetting someone else crying and having. to deal with it which we know disrupts. the part of our sleep the RM sleep which. actually we need for our sexual. functioning so even just knowing that as. a parent and knowing that. look if you're getting up many times a. night don't worry about your sex life. for the time being what you can do as a.

couple is focus on sharing that more. equally because if one of you is getting. a good night's sleep and feeling horny. all the time and another one's getting. up three times and sex is the last thing. on their mind probably the best thing. that you can do is try and share it is. there a certain age. where sex comes back in in terms of your. children's age is there like when you. get to I don't know 10 years old then. sex comes back in typically yeah so we. know that people start getting sleep. from when their kid is about six but. obviously if you've got another one. that's a bit younger um then you might.

be starting the process all over again. so given that sleep's so important the. older they get the better that is for. people's sex lives I mean it's hugely. variable so there are plenty of people. that start having sex again um you know. within three months of their baby being. born and yes it may be less frequent. than before but it doesn't disrupt their. sex lives as much much and then there's. plenty of people whereby it might take. them a year to even start having sex. again and then the frequency of having.

sex might stay quite infrequent for some. time what's interesting though in how. quickly people get back to it is that. how quickly people get back to it is. often about the habits that they've then. fallen into as a sexual couple so low. levels of sexual currency high levels of. awkwardness not prioritizing time. together you know Parenthood is. basically a jug of priorities right all. the time there's always something else. you should be doing and so the sex that. you have has to be enticing enough for.

your brain to say yeah I'm going to. sacrifice that for sex because there's. always something else that you should be. doing with your time so it's those. habits that we fall into around our sex. lives that dictate how quickly people. get back into it at what point does. someone should they reach out to a. person like you for help I wish people. would do it sooner they always wait. until it's got really bad and by that. time it's fine we can still reverse it. there's a lot we can do but all these.

habits have kind of settled in all of. this awkwardness pressure resentment. people have moved to quite polarized. positions it would be great if people. came earlier I'd like people to think of. someone like me a bit like a personal. trainer for your sex life that you don't. necessarily go to a personal trainer. just when I don't know things are. terrible you go because you want to. improve something. maintain yeah or maintain um I'd love. people to see it that way you use the. word we can always reverse it but then a.

couple of moments before you use the. word unrecoverable now I wanted to know. is is there ever a situation have you. ever seen patients in your practice. where you knew intuitively this is. unrecoverable oh of course of course. what were the Hallmarks of unrecoverable. um so the Gans talk about the four. horsemen and they talk about resentment. as being um an aspect of a relationship. Dynamic that often means that it can be. quite hard for people to recover from. that and for the relationship to survive.

sometimes when you're talking about sex. if resentment comes across quite. strongly in the way that people talk to. each other it gives you a good. indication that this is going to be. quite challenging I would say though. that sometimes unrecoverable is a good. outcome because we're not necessarily. destined to be monogamous we're not. necessarily destined to be with one. person person yes social convention. makes us feel that that should be the. case but for some people a good outcome. is having a split and a good sexual.

relationship with someone else so. sometimes identifying that it's. unrecoverable because it's gone so far. it's been so long perhaps they were. never that sexually compatible in the. first place decades later there's tons. of resentment maybe it is the best thing. at that point and perhaps that is a good. outcome for some. people point of curiosity what are the. the types of problems that people come. to you with the types of challenges they. come to you with what what is you know. you see a couple sit down um the first.

sentence out of their mouth what are. those sort of five most popular. sentences that come out of their mouth. um it would be the first one and by far. the most popular is we have a great. relationship but and it's a problem with. sex usually a problem with initiation or. desire that is by far the most common. presentation we love each other. immensely you know we have so much. respect for each other we have a great. partnership but sex just doesn't happen. or it doesn't happen in the way that we.

want the second is probably specific. problems that people have with their. bodies and sex so people that are. experiencing pain particularly painful. penetration people who are worrying. about erections worrying about orgasms. these things are all quite. common the third is probably navigating. change so we talked earlier about how. sexual relationships need to be able to. flex and allow growth for us as. individuals and quite often because we. can't talk about it growth happens for.

one person and then they're suddenly not. getting their sexual needs met so for. example they might suddenly decide that. there's something that they're into or. want to explore that they do not feel. able to talk about with their partner. and without it the sexual relationship. is a crisis point and so we need to be. able to. allow space for that sexual relationship. to see whether it can withstand that. change and growth and create that. culture of growth I'm I was just playing.

in my mind all the all the really. incredible things you must have heard. from people about like their fantasies. and stuff like that and. um I'm trying not to break your client. patient. confidentiality just thinking about the. other like the unexpected things that. people come to you and ask you about you. know what's one of the most unexpected. things after 20 years of doing my job. one of the things that has come up a lot.

recently that has surprised me and it. may not surprise you I don't know if. you've got any but the impact of pets on. people's sex lives oh my have you got. any pets I've got a dog and he loves to. watch there you go you know this was a. massive surprise to me I've been doing. this job decades and only recently I. something came up on my insta and it. blew up with people saying yeah my pet's. con constantly ruining the mood they're. either trying to get involved or they're. watching or they're in the room or it. puts the other person off this was one. of the biggest surprises to me honestly.

so what's the so people are saying that. what the pet is jumping in or my pet my. my dog um I think he was concerned about. my partner I think he thinks that she's. being attacked or protective yeah he's. very very protective so sometimes I. think he thinks he looks really upset. and then when he was younger he used to. like wee himself oh when he was watching. which is like a nervous Wing cuz money. and Daddy are fighting it's like well I. think it was we it was I mean it's it's. a big deal when you think about what we.

talked earlier about attention and. distraction because nobody really wants. to have to take account of a third. person in in well unless you want a. third person in the room but you know a. pet in the room basically it's quite. distracting right it is yeah and if you. put them outside my understanding. because I've heard this as cats as well. my understanding is that they will bar. and scratch at the door it's not like. you can keep them away very easily this. is a massive challenge pets should come. with a warning label for your sex life.

so you think pet should not be invited. into the I would say not but I mean some. people are obviously fine with it but. the reaction I got from people on my. social media was this is a major problem. and I've never heard of it before I've. never seen it written in research it's a. new thing maybe it's lockdown everyone. got pets are you hopeful for the uh. trajectory of sex in this world I really. am actually there is I think there's. been a a boost of sex positivity um in.

the media on social media on TV shows. like sex. education I think what I've noticed is. that's not yet trickled down to the. therapy room so you know what I see and. think is happening I guess because I'm. plugged into those things and the types. of people I follow on social media I. really feel like it's changing and. people are understanding more about sex. feeling more assertive about sex. understanding that it doesn't have to. look one way looking at different. relationship structures not just. assuming monogamy not just assuming.

heterosexuality but actually what I see. in the therapy room is that's not. trickled down yet and so my hope is that. in the decade that follows we'll be in. quite a different place and you know for. me as a parent of two boys that's quite. an exciting place to be because we know. that our first sexual experience is. actually quite influential in dictating. our sexual satisfaction lifelong so to. be able to go into sex with more.

knowledge to be able to have an. experience that is good rather than bad. which is most people's first experience. I think that's a great gift that we can. give younger people you use the word. change there talking about how we have. to sort of grow and adapt through our. sexual Journey with a long-term partner. one of the changes that I've come to. learn that takes place from doing this. podcast is menopause M and that cans on. someone's sexuales has an on our. hormones and how we're feeling I'm. learning more and more about menopause. but I imagine some of the people that.

come to you and talk about their sexual. desire are referencing the impact that. menopause has had or paropa AB. absolutely the symptoms of menopause can. be um really unpleasant for a lot of. people not for everyone of course but. things like hot flushes and um aches and. pains and mood changes they obviously. can really disrupt your interest in sex. there's also other things going on in. menopause that are more. kind of Psychosocial as well often. around stay long-term relationships all. the things we've talked about around. desire and sometimes the work is.

figuring out how much of it is to do. with menopause which some of it might be. how much of it was there before and is. exacerbated by those symptoms of. menopause but it's really important in. fact hormonal fluctuations for all. people with menstrual cycles actually. are quite important when it comes to sex. and we do see changes across the monthly. cycle in um people's receptiveness to. sex and also the types of sex that. they're interested in changes one of the.

changes that happens when we have kids. is our bodies change yeah hugely and. that can have a big impact I imagine on. self-confidence but also potentially. attraction yeah I think there's often a. big worry that those body changes will. influence attraction and again because. we don't talk about it people never get. to find out so a lot of people tell me. that they're worried that their partner. won't find them as attractive because. they've got stretch marks or because. their body looks different and actually. they've never voiced that part of the.

success of therapy is people speak the. things that they don't speak elsewhere. and sometimes just having a conversation. about those things means that the. problem is removed instantly by someone. saying well actually no like I can see. your body's change but you know the way. your belly looks isn't the sole. attraction that I have for you so yes. it's changed but no it's not shifted my. attraction for you so so yeah changes um. to body image and how that affects you. during sex but also what you were AA.

partner might think can be a huge thing. for parents are we are we meant to be. monogamous no is that a shitty question. are we meant to be anything no you know. it's not a very popular answer this and. actually when I post about this on my. socials people hate it because it really. disrupts what a lot of us are doing I'm. monogamous myself right but we are not. destined to be ogous we there isn't. anything about humans that means that. we're designed to maintain sexual. interest in the same person for a long.

amount of time that's why if we have sex. with the same person forever if you. don't work at it if you don't nurture it. if you don't allow growth it's going to. be challenging because we're not. designed to do it our brains they get. bored they need um novelty they don't. like. predictability so we're not designed to. be monogamous and I think what's. fascinating is that we all just kind of. fall into it because it's a social. construct that is kind of politically. and economically and historically.

present we just think that's what we. should do it's fine if people choose it. of course it is but I think if you. choose monogamy I think you have to have. your eyes open to the fact that you. can't expect that that means you'll. maintain sexual interest for that person. without any. effort that's what we know about. long-term monogamy spontaneous desire. will drop sexual currency will drop. person will become very familiar you'll. need to find ways to keep sex novel. you'll need to not order the set menu.

you'll need to go for the buffet you. need to bring different versions of. yourself into sex there's so many things. that you need to be conscious of if you. choose monogamy if you want a good sex. life and I think monogamy tends to bring. with it an idea that that person will. just always remain sexually interested. in you because you've married them or. perhaps you don't need to work at it and. I think those things can be quite. harmful those. ideas I've read like only four or five%. of people identify as being polygamous.

is that the right word polygamy so I. mean there are many different words but. um in terms of open relationship. structures of which there are many I. think I think they're on the rise and I. think that's a good thing because I. think all of us a bit like as I said. earlier that idea of compulsory. heterosexuality you're kind of. monogamous and straight unless you prove. otherwise or choose otherwise right it'd. be great if we all had an idea that well. you could be any of those things and.

there is not a one that's best or right. but why don't you look at all the. options before you make your mind up do. you have people come and see you that. are in those polygamous relationships. yeah absolutely and I have plenty of. people come and see me that are moving. from monogamy into opening up and want. to think about how they can do that in a. way that privileges their kind of Prim. primary relationship so that that's. actually a really wonderful thing to. work with I love working with those. couples because actually they're really.

able to think outside the box and they. can separate their love from each other. and their commitment to each other from. their sexual interests and they cannot. be threatened by the idea of sex. elsewhere um it's yeah it's really fun. to work with a new set of problems and. does it work I would say a new set of. solutions interesting does it does it. work yes but like monogamy it only works. if you work at it because there are. another set of things that you might. need to work at that are you know you.

might not need to work on novelty you. might not need to work on predictability. um because you you're getting that with. different partners but you do need to. work on boundaries communication um how. you manage it together and the constant. flux of that so it all requires work. what if you're in a relationship right. now and you want an open relationship. what is the best way to broker that. conversation with your partner is it. just a hey babe let's sit down and have. dinner um I'd like to have an open. relationship I think you know direct is.

good but also if you want to test the. waters you might say like we talked. about earlier with communication I was. listening to this podcast turns out that. you know a lot of us choose monogamy. without even thinking it through did you. do that did you choose monogamy did you. know that was right for you I've been. thinking about this for myself recently. I don't know why I chose it my partner. said that to me it would be like a. dagger in the heart I'd be oh gosh got. nervous even hearing that cuz it because.

you know what they're implying they're. implying that they want to go shag. someone. else yeah and we you know one of our. ideas about sex and sexual relationships. is that the attraction and desire we. have for our partner or the romantic. love we have for our partner is finite. MH and that if it moves to someone else. it's lost from us MH and it's it's a. really interesting concept that we only. really have with romantic love like we. don't have it with love for our children. we don't think if we have another one. we'll stop loving the first one and we.

don't have it for our friends right we. can have multiple friends and love them. all equally or love them all differently. so you think we can love multiple people. absolutely yeah but I think we are we. feel fear about the concept of it simply. because in our mind that is a threat to. our connection I think you know it's a. really it's a really interesting concept. and it'd be it'll be fascinating to see. where we go with different relationship. structures in in the decades that follow. Dr Karen. gurny we have a closing judici on this.

podcast where the last guest leaves a. question for the next guest not knowing. who they're leaving it for and there's. two questions that have been left for. you the first one is what's the worst. advice you've ever. received the worst advice I've ever. received was to not become a. psychologist cuz I wasn't cut out for it. who gave you that advice my first. supervisor I hope she's. listening what when she said you're not. cut out for it MH what did she mean she. said to me there are many qualities.

required to be a good clinical. psychologist unfortunately you don't. have any of them what a thing to say to. somebody it was very early on in my. career I must have been you know 19 20. um so yeah I'm glad to have proved her. wrong and the second question is what's. the best advice you can offer Steven. bartler on how he can improve. well I'll obviously have to focus it on. sex okay and it's going to be create a. culture of talking about sex. often initiate freely and be really.

comfortable with being turned down thank. you so much it's been an absolute um. honor to go on this journey of sex with. you I mean that sounds a little bit. strange but you know what I me go with. it yeah um to learn about your. perspective on sex it's really. refreshing I've spoken to a few people. that are experts on the subject matter. of sex and orgasms and everything in. between but your perspective is um. really refreshing because it focuses on. first reframing what sex is and some of. the like underlying um psychological.

barriers that we create about our. perceptions of what sex is and if we. start there then we probably won't have. a lot of these other Upstream symptoms. of that like misunderstanding that's. exactly of what sex is um and also I've. from doing this podcast had tons of. parents that have contacted me asking. about when you become a parent what. happen in your sex life so your book has. come at a fantastic time in culture I. recommend people go and get both books. um both of which are available now both. are incredible reads they're really.

inclusive and easy to read and your new. book how not to let having kids ruin. your sex life is essential reading for. all parents that might be struggling. with this so thank you really appr thank. you it's been a. pleasure I think it was about a year ago. I became obsessed with sleep to the. point that as many of you know I pretty. much have it as a non-negotiable one of. the things that I found is's a brand. called Eight sleep that sponsor this. podcast and that is the cover that I. have on my bed some of you will know. that in order to have optimal sleep our. bodies need to be a certain temperature.

and there's slight variance between all. of us that's exactly what eight sleep. does it learns my body and regulates. both sides of my bed with two people on. it so that we both have optimal sleep. and on the app you can also see how much. you've slept if you've underslept and. how you've performed across multiple. stages of sleep it is a bit of a. revelation in my life I have to be. honest it automatically regulates our. temperature so we sleep deeper and. therefore wake up feeling more restored. more energized and more capable to. pursue our goals the podcast sponsors. that I have are brands that I love and.

use and eight sleep is one of them I've. had so many technological game changes. in my life and eight sleep is certainly. one of them check it out at 8sleep.com. stepen for Holiday. [Music]. savings. [Music].

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