The Muscle Building Expert: They’re Lying To You About Workout Hours! Dr Michael Israetel

Doing this at home will give you. phenomenal overall results with not so. much time investment. It's not so. difficult. We're talking about a sum. total of Really? Yeah, yeah. Doing that per week will. radically transform your body. Dr. Mike. Israetel is a leading sports scientist. who provides no-nonsense, science-based. strategies. on muscle building, fat loss, and. helping people maximize their fitness. potential. My intention is to get. everyone in as good of shape as possible. with minimum time investment. So, where do we start?

So, it's the consistency that matters. Doesn't matter if it's 2 hours a week or. if it's 18 hours a week. If you're. consistent, you can get amazing. benefits. And then there's the. specificity, which is the most important. principle in all of exercise science. It's telling yourself, "Okay, I want. bigger biceps." And then focus on that. And also every real working set should. be challenging. Is there a perfect. amount of repetitions to do? There is, it's a trade secret. But it's. How long will it take me to lose the. muscles that I've gained if I don't go. back to the gym? After about 2 weeks of not lifting, you. start to lose muscle. But most people. think, "Oh my god." Another 8 months.

just to get back to where I started? But when you gain an initial amount of. muscle, it never goes back to the same. size as when you started. It's just. always going to be bigger. And then got. a couple of hours a week. I just want to. get a bit leaner and I want to gain some. muscle. Okay, the first thing we do is. Dr. Michael, are there any supplements. you suggest I take? Whey protein, casein protein. What about. steroids? Jesus Christ, I'm really going. to say this. You recently on like a. boatload of steroids. There are a few. downsides. What are the downsides that no one's. talking about? They're unspeakable. You really want to.

know? This is a sentence I never thought I'd. say in my life. Um we've just hit 7. million subscribers on YouTube and I. want to say a huge thank you to all of. you that show up here every Monday and. Thursday to watch our conversations. Um. from the bottom of my heart, but also on. behalf of my team who you don't always. get to meet. There's almost 50 people. now behind The Diary of a CEO that work. to put this together. So, from all of. us, thank you so much. Um we did a. raffle last month and we gave away. prizes for people that subscribed to the.

show up until 7 million subscribers. And. you guys loved that raffle so much that. we're going to continue it. So, every. single month we're giving away. money-can't-buy prizes including. meetings with me, invites to our events, and a thousand-pound gift vouchers to. anyone that subscribes to The Diary of a. CEO. There's now more than 7 million of. you. So, if you make the decision to. subscribe today, you can be one of those. lucky people. Thank you from the bottom. of my heart. Let's get to the. conversation. Dr. Michael. What is the mission that you find.

yourself on in this phase of your life? For those who would like. to get everyone who would like in as. good of shape as possible. with as minimum of a time investment, injury probability. and. inconvenience uh in general as possible. and the highest likelihood of best. results while trying to completely. excise doing anything that is pointless.

and also. I'm going to say this politely. telling people things. that aren't true. We're trying to get as many people fit, leaner, more muscular, more flexible, healthier, etc. as humanly possible to. the extent that they are interested in. that sort of thing. Cuz not everyone's. into fitness, I understand that. I mean. I think I look kind of, you know, freaky. and it scares certain people. So, I have. a lot of time for that. But if you want. to get fit, uh. we're trying our best. What are the the big myths that end up.

standing in the way of most people? When. they when they hear this conversation. now. what are the most frequent rebuttals. that you'll get when you say that. someone can get in shape and be a be. lean with limited time? Two super common ones are. I don't have the time to work out. And. into that time to work out is included I. don't have regular gym access or I. technically do, but I'd have to drive to. the gym. I just don't have the time or. the bandwidth or I don't have the.

scheduling positioning in in my life to. do this sort of thing. And baked into. that is the assumption that getting much. healthier and much leaner and much more. muscular takes like an inordinate amount. of time. What are the most common. questions I get out in the real world. when people happen to look in my general. direction cuz usually people just kind. of go like, "What the hell's wrong with. that guy's head?" But uh one of the most. common questions I get is how many. uh hours a day do you work out or how. many days a week do you work out? And. every single person is expecting an. answer.

that is kind of like asking the tallest. basketball player you've ever met how. tall they are. You want an answer that's. like 2 and 1/2 m. You want something. meaty. And if they tell you like, "Well, I'm a meter 90." You're kind of like, "Ugh, it's not that cool." And every time I. tell them how much I work out, which is. really like. at at my real like trying to be as good. as bodybuilding as possible, it is. really 8 hours a week. And this is to do. this insane thing for people just trying. to be fit and healthy, etc. We're. talking about a sum total of 1 hour per.

week split into two or three 20-ish. minute sessions. Something we'll be. trying later on. is such a huge stimulus and can. radically transform your body, especially if you have attention to. nutrition. And that's the second thing. that's a big dogma, big myth is. people have. ideas about what comes in to nutrition. and nutrition for being more lean, more. muscular, and healthier. They have all.

these kind of a constellation of ideas. Um uh economist and philosopher Thomas. Sowell calls them notions. So, if you. have a hierarchy of understanding, you. have theory at the top, which is like. gravitation, evolution, things super. super confirmed. Just beneath that you. have model like the standard model in. physics. It's not quite good enough, quite good enough support be a theory, but it's very well understood space with. a few mysteries. Under that you have. hypothesis, which is, you know, you have a real good. idea formally phrased. And underneath. that you have a notion. And a notion's.

just things people say and people are. like, "Uh-huh." And no one even asks or. answers about, "Is this really true?". And so, when you talk to people about. nutrition or they talk to you about why. they're not in such great shape. Another. thing I get is when you're pretty jacked. and lean and you sit next to someone on. a plane, they treat you almost like a. religious figure, like a priest or an. imam. And they're like, "Apologize.". They're like, "Oh, you look like you're. in good shape. I just haven't been to. the gym." And I'm like, "I love you as a. human being." You know, all the time. All the time. They apologize for the. state they're in? More or less, yeah. Or. they'll see me eat a protein bar and.

they're getting like the food on the. plane and they're like, "Fsh, this is. bad for me, huh?" And I'm like, "No, it's actually quite fine." And they. always look a little bit confused. So, all these ideas people have about. nutrition organic artificial sweeteners. are bad, gluten-free, GMOs, um you have. to have very meticulously well-prepared. meals. There is a ton of food that's. huge laundry list of food that's. unhealthy and bad for you, makes you. fat. There are other foods that are a. little bit more nuanced and difficult to. find that are super health foods that. will radically transform you. I can go.

on for hours about these myths. But. people come in with these myths as. notions, as things they believe that. they're like, "This is how it is, right?" And when you tell them like, "This is actually that's not true." A. lot of them are like, "No way." Cuz maybe that's the first. time they've heard about it. So, you. tell people. working out doesn't have to last. forever. If you do it intelligently, which is. what we specialize at RP about teaching. people how to do and demonstrating. digital products, you can get into really really good. shape with not so much time investment. It's not so difficult. Um. It's difficult in the moment as far as.

you got to try hard, but you know, an. hour of trying hard a week is not the. end of the world. And then on the. nutritional front, they come in and they. think it takes all these crazy special. things like people watch me eat regular. food and they'll be like, "You eat. that?" And I'm like, "Yes." Like, "But I. thought that, you know, but do you need. the super special food?" I think that's. never been true. But um. people come in with their stack of ideas. and these there's just dozens and dozens. of myths on both of hands. We'll go.

through all of those myths. But but my. last question before we get into it is. why does it matter to be in good shape? And this is I I yeah, I'm asking you. here to really draw on some of the case. studies that you've probably been. exposed to where people have turned. their lives around. What is the net. benefit of someone who's listening right. now, who's maybe heard about fitness. stuff before and has heard from personal. trainers and bodybuilders and whoever. else. But for whatever reason they just. haven't been able to get up off the sofa. and get into action. It's difficult, you. know. What is what Why should they? Why.

should they care? I love that question. The first thing I'll say is um. is maybe not a surprise to many of the. people that know me. Politically, I'm like super pro-freedom, freedom of all kinds, inclusion. And that means to me also that if. someone doesn't want to pursue fitness, as a human being, you have the same love. and respect, at least for me, that. anyone who is fit would have. And so, as. far as like, "It'll just make you a. better person. You got to you got to get. fit." People will see.

uh people that are obese and they're. like, "Look lazy." And "Ugh, how do they. live with themselves?" I don't ever. think things like that. Not cuz I'm a. good person. I'm not a good person at. all. But. what fitness won't give you is it won't. elevate your status as a better person. in some way. However, the other benefits. of fitness, we could have a 10-hour. podcast where I just go through one one. at a time and we would never get through. all of them. I'll give you a couple of. samplings of kind of the big hitters.

One is health, straight up. So, if you. reduce your body fat substantially and. you increase your muscularity. substantially and you adopt a lifestyle. of. moderate to moderately high physical. activity quite regularly, this is about as close in real life as. we have so far to a panacea, a cure-all. It isn't cure-all, but the degree of. preventative. uh you won't get really sick very soon. The fact that has is just radical.

I. just coming off of them, but if it's. okay to say it was recently on like a. boatload of steroids, like the worst. ones. Got blood work right in the middle of. that. Because I was a very lean and very. physically active and very muscular, my. blood work stellar. Just being leaner. and more muscular and more active, just. cleans your blood work up like crazy. And makes your long-term it increases. your longevity considerably, but it does. something I think is pretty close to.

equally important. It increases. the kind of time you're having in your. life. while you're alive. It makes it way better. It reduces the. morbidity. And so cuz you can be around. a long time living in assisted care. facility and like on machines to keep. you. That's you're alive, sure, but it's. something missing there. But if you have. more muscle, less fat, and more physical. activity, you ever see like an. 80-year-old that's like cardio walking. down the street and you're like, "My. man!" It'll give you that. So that's a.

big deal. So health, it'll give you uh. usually people experience a perception. of wellness that's psychological. They. just feel better. They feel cleaner. They feel more energy. The cognitive. benefits of health and fitness are now. being addressed seriously in the. literature and they have been for a. little while, but it's kind of swelling. Uh it's unequivocally true now to say. that regularly engaging in fitness makes. you literally smarter. Just straight up. And it conserves your.

brain's cognitive health for decades. into the future as you do it. consistently. It's just win all the way. across. What is your. background in terms of your academic. qualifications and experiences that. you've had that feed into everything. that you know? This is sounds so. pretentious. I can't believe I'm using. this nomenclature, but I did my. undergraduate work at the University of. Michigan where I met uh my fellow. co-founder of RP Nick Shaw.

And um that was in kinesiology, specifically subset of something called. movement science. I then went on to do a. master's in technically strength and. conditioning but exercise science at. Appalachian State University. Then I. went for 1 year to go work in New York. City with Nick as a personal trainer. At the end of that process, I realized. that for my own personal like vibe, I. just didn't know enough. And I wanted to. know more. And so I got accepted to a. PhD program at East Tennessee State.

University under the great Mike Stone. who is. probably one of the most well-published. sports scientists of all time. Maybe. definitely in the conversation for the. greatest American sports scientist of. all time. And I went to that PhD program and that. was in sport physiology. And the best. way we had of summarizing what it is we. were learning is the thing we're. learning best here is how to take good. athletes and make them better. And so I did 3 years of that. Sounds. like some prison time. I did 3 years in. ETSU. And uh. that was the conclusion as a terminal.

degree. I got a PhD in sport physiology. And then I spent oh jeez, 10 years in. various professorships uh teaching and. doing some research and all this other. stuff. I'm no longer a college professor. mostly because like there's only so many. things you can do at the same time well. And I was kind of like this is this. YouTube thing is getting kind of insane. So I was kind of pivot to that. But um. I'm still actively involved in research. Our company funds research. I still look. at manuscripts. I still co-author. So. I'm still involved in that capacity as.

well. So I want to start with a start. If someone's listening to this right now. and they have walked into your This is. your. This is your practice. You're This is. your hypertrophy practice, let's say, this table. And they sit there and they. say, "I would like to gain more lean muscle. mass and I'd like to lose some weight. Um I live a busy life. Where do we start? What's step one? And. you know, like I'm actually going to. hazard a guess at step one and to see if. I'm correct, but for me step one is. quite psychological.

Because it's all well and good me having. the tactics and strategies and the. information, but if I don't have the. motivation, then if it's going to matter. anyway. So is step one. psychological in some way? Absolutely. My god. You should just be taking my job. at this point. No, but yeah, okay. I thought so. I. thought that was So what what would you. do for me to get me in the right. psychological mindset? I would even take a step back before. that. Okay. The first thing we do. is called a needs analysis in formal. sports science.

A needs analysis is. what do you want. specifically? Do you want bigger arms? How much muscle are you trying to gain? It's a very different conversation if. someone weighs 150 lb and they're like, "I want to be 155 but leaner.". versus I weigh 150 lb and I want to be. 200 ripped. Different timelines, different approaches, different. tradeoffs. Okay, give me the typical. answer to that question. Most people are. just open-ended to be completely honest. They're like, "I just want to get much.

leaner." And some of them will say, "I. also want to put on a lot of muscle.". The muscle thing is a lot of times with. females they just want the leaner part, but they understand in many cases that. if they just jettison their muscle. entirely, they end of looking more sick. than healthy. Uh but a lot of the males. leaner is important, but also getting. super jacked is important. But how. jacked and how lean, that's the. conversation is if they come in with. totally open-ended concerns. It's kind. of like walking into a car dealership. and be like, "I want a car." Like you. kind of have to be a little We'll sell. you whatever, but you're going to have.

to tell me a little bit more about what. your use cases are, about what your. budget is. So that's another big thing. in a needs analysis is. how much time can you give to this? Because if someone says, "I want to. eventually be a professional bodybuilder. and I've got nothing but time in my week. to do the thing." They're getting a very. different plan than someone that's like, "I just want to be able to see my man. down there again and like just not die. soon.

And I have 2 hours a week to give you.". Very different plan. So I've got let's. say I've got a couple of hours a week. So you know, two, three Mhm. hours a. week that I could probably spare, maybe. four. And I just want to get a bit. leaner and I want to gain some muscle. Yeah. I also ask, "What have you been doing so. far? Tell me about your approach to. fitness." And the answer could be, "I. don't have one. I've never tried to do. anything." Once we get a lot of that. information, I don't want to say the. plan writes itself, but it sort of.

almost. Now we really really really have. all the details to fill in the blanks. And then from there, once you've done. that sort of needs analysis and you've. understood the investment that they're. willing to make, you understand what. their goals are, you understand their. current approach to fitness, what. becomes step two? So if again, I'm. trying to embody the viewer here who's. trying to change their life. Yeah, yeah. Get going for Step two often times just. to keep it We can I We can definitely do. nutrition if you'd like. So please keep. me in for that, but I'll just use. training as a quick example here.

Uh a big one is. do you go to a gym? Can you make it to a gym or are you. going to be training at home? Because training at home is a bit of a. different world. You can get amazing. results at home, but we need to make. sure you have the right equipment. And. it's super minimal. Two 20-lb dumbbells. I like that you're looking over at the. dumbbells like. At least 20 kg dumbbells. The 20-lb. dumbbells. Is that what I need at home? For many people, 20 like adult males.

bright and spry like yourself, 20-lb. dumbbells at home will give you. phenomenal overall results. Yeah. What is that? 9 kg or something? Oh, here we go. Your assistants are quite strong by the. way. Thank you. Do you fight crime in. your spare time? Okay, so these. are 20-lb dumbbells. You're just showing off now. But these. are what I need at home to to do your. workout. Uh yeah, somewhere between 10. and 20 lb. 10 for smaller lighter. females, 20 for larger more strong.

males. Somewhere between that. Two of. those dumbbells at home and a little bit. of floor space can be the beginning of. an absolutely revolutionary workout. program. Really? Yeah, yeah. How So. give me the starting position and the. end position that I could get to just. with these dumbbells at home? If you properly control your diet. and you haven't really lifted weights. before and you're let's say 30, 40, 50. years old, in a 6-month time span,

we can reliably get you to gain 5 to 10. lb of muscle. Which if you go to the. store, what is that like? Five, let's. say the two to five kilos of muscle. You. ever buy two to five kilos of meat at. the store? That's a lot of meat. That's. going on your body. And we can reliably. get you to lose oh gee, five to seven. and a half kilos of fat in a 6-month. time frame just by being intelligent. about your diet and doing.

two workouts per week at home with your. dumbbells. And the workouts each take. roughly 20 minutes. So that's 40 minutes a week. Mhm. Oh yeah. Now that's if you're on a. custom then and unadjusted. If you have. already That's why those intake. questions are important. Cuz if you're. like, "Look, I go to the gym six times a. week. I spend 2 hours at the gym." Like. the dumbbells can keep you in pretty. good shape, but they're not going to. elevate your shape very likely. At the. very very least it'll be highly. inefficient and incredibly discomforting. for what you'd have to do with such.

dumbbells. So what is step three then? So if we've. got the equipment part figured out, and. I guess the complicated element of that. is some people have anxiety as it. relates to going to the gym. I've got a. lot of friends that because they're so. inexperienced with weightlifting or the. machines, they feel embarrassed to go to. the gym. So that Well, at least that's. what they tell me. Now I don't know. whether they're BS-ing themselves, but. they tell me that they have gym anxiety. Yes. You know, you walk And I No, actually, I can relate. You walk into a. gym, especially if I go to like a.

like a bodybuilding gym, and I do look around and go, "Okay, everyone here knows what they're doing. more than I do." Ooh, that's already. wrong, but we'll get to that in a bit. And are they looking at me? Are they Do. they know that I I don't know how this. machine works? And if I don't know how a. machine works and there's nothing, you. know, no label to tell me, sometimes I. just avoid the machine if I'm in a in. like a bodybuilding gym, cuz I go, "I. [ __ ] know I don't know how to do my. wrist muscles." Yep. I just look like a doofus and everyone's. making fun of me in their head. I think sometimes. If I go to like a. really elite gym, so. Yeah. So, first of all, I think people's gym.

anxiety is absolutely real thing. I can. speak to that at at length. The next step would be to say, "Hey, listen, based on all the information we've. collected on your limitations, desires, abilities, we've cultivated a plan for you. Be diet. plan, and it's just just sticking to the. muscle growth stuff. Here's your plan for your training. And we actually have an app for this. sort of thing, where we would say, "Okay, here's how. you type in all your stuff in the app.

The app will create a plan for you, and. it'll tell you, here's what to do for. warming up, here's you know, you pick a. weight, it tells you how to pick your. weights, and then it programs the rest. of your your 2 months of training for. you. You fill in the how do we how do I. feel, how am I recovering? It'll take. care of everything else. And if you ever get confused, you click. on the exercise and it opens up a video. with an audio demonstration of how to do. it and of someone a professional. bodybuilder doing the thing. You go, "Oh, that's that's what bicep curls was. Okay, got it." So, now you have all the.

answers, and you don't have to have our. app. We think it's nice. You don't have. to have it. Just whatever kind of plan. you have, that's your little map of the Caribbean. Sea with the X's and the pirate ships, and you know exactly where to go. And. it's you, your app or your map of how to train. your program, and everyone else like in. the Avengers movies, just. just floats away. There's no one else. There's not even any other machines. It's you. and the bicep curl machine, and. hypertrophy app says, "First set is 12.

reps at 50 lb." I take the selector I. stack I go to 50, and I'm nice and. warmed up, and I do 12 reps. And that's. as far as you have to think about it. Comparisons, whatever everyone else. thinks, without a plan, oh boy, are you. second-guessing yourself. With a plan, you don't have to second-guess anything. Most of those people don't have a plan. They're just in there on vibes. Like, "I. don't feel like my delts are going to. grow today if I do this." Like, "Thanks. Thanks for that intellectual opinion.". You said there's two types of effective. training. One of them's hyp- Can't say. this, but one of them's hypertrophy?

Very good. And the other one is. periodization? Uh so, periodization is the. scientifically based organization of any. kind of training that you want. Okay. Hypertrophy training is a type of. training. It's just muscle growth. training. It's like a fancy [ __ ]. science word for. just getting more jacked, putting on. muscle. That's is technical definition. of hypertrophy. And when you train. hypertrophy, you can do it kind of like. by feel and more or less at random, and. you'll get pretty good results in most. cases. But to get your best results, you.

want that training to be periodized. Periodization is the scientific approach. to how to organize your training to get. sort of roughly three things. Some of. these are a bit more for athletes and. not regular people. Get the best results that you can. Peak at an appropriate time, abs for. summer. And minimize injury risk. And taking all the science that we know, that plan that you've made because you. did it in evidence-based fashion, that. is now what is considered a periodized.

plan. So, that's how those two concepts. relate to each other. What do I need to. know about hypertrophy in order to be. able to achieve it? Is there anything. really foundational, cuz. I think everyone wants a bit of muscle. growth. And I spend I think I spend too. long in the gym. I think I could be much. more efficient um when I'm training. What would you recommend that I start. thinking about as fun- foundational. principles when it comes to hypertrophy. muscle growth? One is specificity. It's the most important principle in all. of sport training and exercise science.

Is uh. what am I here for? What do I want? Because you can do a bunch of exercises. in the gym, and you're like, "That was great." And. someone's like, "Are you getting the. results you like?" You're like, "Well, what I want is a bigger bicep." Like, "How many bicep exercises did you do?". Like, "I think upright rows, maybe." So, I want a bigger bicep. We just focus on. getting Steven Bartlett a bigger left. bicep. So, specificity is telling yourself, "Okay, I want bigger biceps and whatever X Y Z. other muscles.". Then we move in to the principle of.

overload, which means you have to. challenge yourself. If most of your sets, someone else watching them can't tell if. you're warming up or doing what's called. a working set, like a real set, you have. a problem. So, towards the end of all of your sets, either the weights are slowing down, or even if it's the same speed, to you. they feel perceptibly harder. You know, you do this this this, and in a couple. reps you're like,

that's what you want. Every real working. set should be challenging. You should be. work approaching every real set with. just a teeny teeny dose of trepidation. Like, "Oh boy, here we go. I'm going to. have to try.". Once you have that, And a set is a a. group of repetitions. Correct. So, if I do 10 repetitions, that's one. set. Okay. And so, your sets have to be. sufficiently heavy, uh anything between roughly five reps. per set and 30 reps per set, where the.

last few reps are getting close to you. not being able to use good technique and. lift the weights. Check plus. So, there's not a set a. perfect amount of repetitions to do. There is. It's a trade secret, and I'd. have to say it off camera to you. Like. Okay, NDA aside, we're off camera. All right, great. So, it's 17. Um there is so there's just tons of tons. of contextual nuance kind of stuff. Some. people some of their muscles will seem. respond better to sets of five to 10. Other folks, even the same person could.

have muscles in their body that really. respond better to sets of 20 to 30 and. everything in between. But generally, you get in in the exercise science data, you'll have a group of people training. for sets of roughly five reps and. another group training for sets of. roughly 30 reps, and their change in. muscle growth over 8, 12, 16 weeks is. statistically and differentiable, which. means if I de-label the groups and you. don't know which ones which, you can't. actually tell me who trained with higher. reps or lower reps. For muscle growth, it's roughly the same. And that's so crazy. Using the same.

weight, I'm guessing different. weights. A weight that is challenging for five. reps is much heavier than a weight that. is challenging for 30. Uh okay, so I do wonder this all the. time when I go to the gym. I wonder if I. should be doing, I don't know, 30 reps. of 10 kg on my bicep, or I should be. doing 10 reps of 20 kg. They're both. right answers. No wrong answers there. And they both have the same chance of. growing my muscles as long as the strain. that I experience subjectively is. difficult at the end of those sets. Correct. Okay, interesting. Which is really good news, because. that's like another thing you don't have.

to worry about. Which means at home I. can get any range of weights versus. having to get really really big ones to. grow my muscles. As long as they're not so tiny that. you're on rep number 45 and you're like, "I could just do this for forever." Or. they're not so enormous that you're. like, "I can't really even do two reps. of this." Anything between roughly five. and roughly 30 reps, challenging, is. really really good. How many sets and how often do I have to. visit the gym. to get this bicep to grow? That answer. depends on how much you've been doing. before. Okay. But if you're new to the gym,

two sessions a week. with two to three sets per session for. your biceps. is something that's going to cause. months and months and months of. consistent progress. Really? Can you do. more? Yes. Do you have to do as a. beginner? No. Eventually, as a more. advanced person, do you need to do more. sets and perhaps more sessions to get. consistently better results? Yes. But. for beginners who haven't been in the. gym very much or at all, the minimal. effective dose is profoundly small,

which is why I can say things like if. you work out for 20 minutes twice a. week, you're going to get great gains. What if I go to the gym and I do. six sets on my biceps, and I just go to. the gym once a week. Does the distance. between the workouts in a muscle group. have an impact? Yes. Once a week training gives you good. results. But twice a week training for the same. muscle. gives you notably better results. Training three times a week versus. twice. Training four times a week versus.

three times. Training five times a week. versus four times is uh an uh an. exponentially de-escalating amount of. impressive differences. So, one time a. week works. It'll get you results. Two times a week gets you like one and a. half times the results, like way better. better. Three times a week is like another. little bit more results, still notable. Four times a week is like you got to be. training for a while to notice the. difference between three and four. Four. and five is contextual and nuanced, and.

I can't actually tell you that. categorically five days a week is better. than four. There are some things I would. have to know about your plan and. everything else to make that conclusion. So, really I want to be aiming at twice. a week per muscle group. Twice is our minimum. Two to four times. a week is what I say as kind of the best. overall recommendation per muscle group. And if you train all of your muscles. together at the same time, a whole body. workout, which most people in the realm. of just I'm busy and I can't train a. lot, it would be all the major muscles. of your body. in the same session, twice or three times or four times a. week, and that is an awesome beginner.

fitness plan. What's going on in my. muscles that's encouraging them and. making them grow? And when are they. growing? Is it when I go to bed at. night? Is it when I Do they grow the. minute that I curl the the dumbbell? What's actually going on? Cuz sometimes. understanding what's actually going on. inside helps me to think through and. change my behavior. Yeah, so the primary stimulus for muscle. growth is there are molecular machines. in your muscles in your muscle cells and.

they are designed to detect the presence. of. tension. And when your muscles generate tension, the molecular detector machines go "Ooh, we got tension here." And they start. saying to other parts of the cells like. "Hey, let's get this muscle growth thing. started." Started, not happening, started. So, the stimulus of muscle. growth. There are a couple of other mechanisms. which. might {slash} probably have an effect. And that a couple of them are metabolite. sequestration, which is a very fancy way. of saying the burn. You know, at the end.

of a set you're like. The metabolites, the. byproducts of training, if they. accumulate to high levels, it's been. shown in tons of animal studies and a. few human studies that like. mechanistically they might also tell the. molecular machinery that grows muscle. for you again later. to hey, get the muscle growth process. Another one is the pump. So, you know, you do a couple of sets of biceps, you're like "Oh my god, what's going on. here, baby?" Flash it at some girl, she. runs away as usual. And the actual cell swelling itself.

might play a causal mechanistic role in. generating more muscle growth, but but. we know it's probably at least at least. 80% of the muscle growth anyone will see. is because of those receptors for. tension. Muscle growth. as soon as you leave the gym is negative. because the gym is catabolic, it's a. breaks down your muscle. Actually training breaks down more. muscle than it builds. However, as you go home and you start eating. food, protein, carbs, fats, and you have.

several meals per day. and you're resting. when the food's coming in several hours. after training begins, if you measure. muscle growth consistently, which is. really difficult to do, they don't do it. super often, you have to keep people in. a laboratory, you have to do radioactive. tracers and measure all this weird. stuff. Ev- every couple of hours they measure. the amount of muscle growth that's going. on in the biceps goes up and up and up. and up and it usually peaks about. half a day to a day and a half after you. lift, depending on how hard you went. If. it's a pretty easy workout, it peaks a.

little sooner and. dives and drops off about a day or two. later. If you train really crazy hard, it'll peak like a day day and a half. later and then half a week later it'll. drop off back to baseline levels. But it's this really smooth curve. And. you're growing muscle at every single. point on that curve. So, when you say. "Is it while I'm sleeping? Is it while. I'm eating? Is it while I'm resting?". The answer is all of those, except it's. not at the gym. You don't grow muscle at. the gym, you give yourself a signal to. grow muscle at the gym. And then what. you do outside of the gym matters. So,

some people train really hard, they don't eat right, they don't eat. enough protein, their sleep is total. insert bad word here, and their stress. levels are just totally psychotic. They. train hard and then week after week. after week they're like. "I'm not seeing any results." But the. results are actually created when you're. resting, when you're sleeping, when. you're eating nutritious food. They're. stimulated in the workout, but that's. just phase one. Phase two, the actual. growth occurs outside of the gym and it. occurs not at any specific time point, that magic window of 2 hours after the.

gym like that's when all the growth. occurs. That's actually when it just. starts to go up. It's for days. afterwards. So, if you train twice a. week, you train on Monday, you're. growing a lot of muscle on Monday night, Tuesday and Wednesday. Back towards the. end of Wednesday, you're just not really. growing much more muscle. You go back to the gym Thursday, you hit. it hard again, you have that curve up. By Sunday, you're totally relaxed. During Sunday, you're not growing any. muscle, your body's really recovering a. lot of that fatigue, and then by Monday. you're fresh as a pickle and you're. ready to go at it again.

How long will it take me to lose the. muscles that I've gained if I don't go. back to the gym? So, again focusing on. this bicep, I train it, I do two times a. week, I get it nice and big. How long before it vanishes? Great question. Two-part answer. Part one. is. within about 2 weeks of not training it, the first. reduction in muscle that is detectable. by modern machinery occurs.

So, if you don't lift for 2 weeks. and we put you in an MRI scanner or a. DEXA scanner, let's say week and a half. you don't lift, I can't tell. You're not really losing any muscle yet. You're just going insane. And so, me. personally, I'm like addicted to. lifting, so if I don't lift for a week. I'm like "Oh my god, oh my god, all my. muscles gone.". There is some kind of intuitive truth to. that because when you don't stress your. muscles, they when you do stress your. muscles, they get a little bit inflamed. and they bulge up a little bit. So, when. you're not training for half a week to a.

week, your muscles look smaller like. they've lost weight, but it's really. just all water that they lost. You do. one gym session thinking like "Oh my. god, my biceps are gone." A week and a. half later, you do one session at the end of that, you flex, you're like "Oh my god, I'm. the biggest I've ever been. I was just. delusional that whole time." Cuz that. stuff comes back super quick. After about 2 weeks of not lifting, you start to lose muscle, but it happens. really really slowly and takes weeks and. weeks and weeks and weeks. After several months of not lifting, you're going to look considerably.

smaller in your biceps, but probably not as small as when you. started lifting because your muscles. have a certain memory, if we can call it. that. Is that true that there's a memory. thing? yeah. And so, a lot of times when you. gain an initial amount of muscle, especially if you've been at it for. years, it just never goes back to the. same size as when you started. It's just. always going to be bigger until you like. reach your 80s or something like that. That being said, yes, you will notice reductions in size. So, 2 weeks is the direct answer there.

and it's going to take weeks and weeks. and months and months to recede. However, here's part two and this is. awesome news. Because of that muscle memory situation, however long it took you to gain the. muscles initially, it's going to take you. an order of magnitude, a factor of. 10-ish or so less time to get it back. If you've been more jacked before, if. you've had bigger muscles, they come back to their old size. If it took if you you you lifted for 8.

months, you got a bigger bicep, and you. stopped lifting for 3 months and it. looks about the same as when you. started. If you're really careful like. "Okay, it's a little bit bigger, but. really it's just back to square one.". Most people think "Oh my god, another 8. months just to get back to where I. started." Forget the truth is after. roughly about a month, maybe as little. as 3 weeks, you're going to have the. same size biceps that you did in your. peak. Because the degree to which your tissue. grows, if it's been a certain size. before, especially.

if it was notably bigger than normal and. you held that around for a few months. and a few years, it comes back. in a way that is so fast, if you. experience. if you experience it yourself, it's it's. like you don't believe that it's. happening to you. Have they been able to. like scientifically test this? Oh, yeah, all the time. Yeah, retraining studies, detraining, retraining. Oh, yeah, they've they've done studies where they. purposefully like lift for a while and. they stop lifting for a long time and. they see how long it takes to get back. and um. there's one study I'm familiar with.

offhand that there's a group of people. that trained consistently for multiple. weeks. And there's another group of. people that trained consistently for a. few weeks and then took 2 weeks. completely off in the middle and then. just started retraining again for a few. weeks later. Both groups had identically sized. differences in muscle at the end of the. study. And so, you're like "Okay, so so. that group that trained consistently. never took 2 weeks off. Could we say that they purposefully like. dunked 2 weeks of their time away for. nothing?" Uh-huh.

Yeah, your body. goes right back into regaining old lost. muscle so rapidly that. this is such great news because look, let's say you lifted consistently most. of the year. Holiday season comes up, winter holidays. You're not going to the gym as much, maybe not at all. 3 weeks later of no. gym, you look at yourself, you look a. little smaller, kind of deflated and. you're like. "Oh my god, I'm going to have to restart. all this from scratch." Nope. 2 weeks. later, you're in the best shape of your.

life again. If you left the gym for 6. months, 1 or 2 months later, you're in the best. shape of your life again. That's how. rapidly it comes back. So, it's really. good news for anyone who hasn't been in. the gym and is feeling guilty about it. Go back, get consistent again, you're. just going to skyrocket. That is very exciting. Because yeah, we. always have sometimes it's the trough, the the couple of weeks off that makes. us demotivated cuz that's crossed my. mind before. "Oh my god, that took me 3. months to get there and. it's going to take me another 3 months. to get back." But. what about So, if I'm training that.

bicep, how have I got to think about. stretching and warming up. before I start before I get going with. my training? There are many ways to do it, but. uh there's some research on this. recently actually. You don't need much. One of the simplest ways to warm up. that we recommend at RP and our app has. it in the in the instructions, you want Let's say you have your final. weight already picked out. Like last. week you did 20-lb dumbbells for sets of. 15, this week it's sets of 16 with a.

20-lb dumbbells. What you want to do is. you want to do very light weight, maybe. the 5-lb dumbbells for a set of 12. Just to get everything moving and. grooving, good technique, same technique. you're going to use. 30 seconds of rest, a minute of rest. You pick up the. 10- or 15-lb dumbbells and do a set of. eight reps. That's a little bit more. challenging, you're feeling your groove. a little bit, but your body's already. more warm, your nervous system is more.

active, your muscles are more pliable. You rest a a minute after that and then. you'll pick up the weight you're. actually using, the 20-pounders, and you'll do a set of two to four reps. with them. Just to get the feel of that. heavy weight that you're going to be. doing to acclimatize not just your. muscles and your nervous system but your. psychology to like, "Okay, this is this. is the business weight that I'm going to. be using.". So, 12 8 4. Rest another 30 seconds. First working. set of whatever, 16 reps. You're up. When you have multiple exercises for the.

same muscle group, you just need to do one set of like four. to eight reps. in that middle weight range between zero. and whatever you're going to do just to. get the feel of the exercise cuz you're. already generally warm in that area. One little warm-up set, rest uh you. know, 30 seconds to a minute, and then. hit your first set. If you're switching. which muscles you're using, like you. were training chest but then in the same. session you start to training back, that. first back exercise, 12 8 4. The weight. goes up up up, the reps go down down. down, just a little bit of time between,

and then you hit your first work set and. you're good to go. You don't have to do. cardio before, you don't have to get on. the treadmill. You can if you like it. You don't have to do some kind of cardio. warm-up. You don't have to do any kind. of stretching or anything like that. You. don't have to do any kind of weird Bosu. ball band around your neck crazy. potentiation exercises. Just that little. ramp up is basically in 98% of all cases. exactly and only what you need to do. What is a warm-up? What is going on. physiologically inside my muscle? Because we we will just warm up and I. don't think anybody actually knows what.

what's going on. Yeah. So, your muscle. tissues. um they have. uh they have physical qualities that can. be measured almost in like a fluid. dynamics terms like viscosity and. hysteresis and all that stuff. And so, when you're very cold, a lot of times the uh there's kind of a. frailty implied there. As you're warming up, you're sending. blood to around the muscle. The muscle. itself is literally becoming warmer.

And a lot of those kind of tight. structures that are uh they're proteins. that are made of kind of stretchy. material, they loosen up a little bit. And that allows you to go through that. full range of motion in training and not. actually get hurt. And that's from the muscle perspective. You also get some kind of chemical stuff. that happens and certain structures fill. up with chemicals, certain structures. chemicals go down, and that gets you. ready to perform super hard work. But that's part of the story. The other.

part is the nervous system because your. nervous system is also getting warmed up. and in technical terms it's called. potentiation. When you. just show up to the gym. and you let's say we said, "Look, okay, we re-engineered your tendons when you. were asleep." You're not going to get. hurt. It's impossible for you to get. hurt. Like a car would have to hit you. for you to rip your bicep off. You can just go and just hit the curls. right away. You wouldn't get hurt. But. it would feel really strange and you. wouldn't get four or five reps close to. where you're supposed to be from last.

week. Cuz your nervous system is like, "What. hell is going on? I'm supposed to be. doing something so you knew what the. nervous system a part of that is. literally like the actual nervous system. itself down to the cellular level is. flushing all kinds of metabolites. through, the connections are getting. stronger. You're uh sort of doing a. little bit of kind of mini re-wiring of. primary motor cortex to say, "Okay, go. Oh, we're doing curls. This is how you. execute this pattern." Another part is. technical. Like, "Oh, this is the technique I'm. going to do." All right. Because if you. just get in the muscle and just do. stuff, like imagine if I told you like,

"Hey, here's a ball. Just like go go. shoot some hoops. Just get hit that, you. know, three-pointer shot." You're like, the the. I need a couple shots to remind my body. of what it's like to shoot the. basketball. Yeah. Same idea for lifting. You need to remind your body of what a. curl motion is. And if you remind it a. couple sets in a row, by the time you. hit that real working set, that fourth. set, your body's like, "I know exactly. what I'm going to do, which parts of the. muscle I'm going to activate to. contract, which other parts of other. muscles I'm going to activate to relax.

and co-contract to make this whole thing. happen.". What are the the other sort of common. mistakes people make when they they go. to the gym or they start training or. they start exercising? So, there I've. I've kind of ticked not stretching and. taking on a. heavy load too quickly. Um but also ramping up volumes and loads. too fast. So, that sort of overstrain. before my body is ready for it. Are. there any really other sort of common. obvious mistakes people make that. inhibit their progress? One of them is uh failure to pay.

attention to good technique. Okay. There are sort of some universal. principles of what is good technique in. the gym for muscle growth. One of them is are you moving in a way. that properly activates, stimulates that. muscle to actually get it to grow? Because if you do a curl that arcs up, it does a lot of bicep. If you do a curl. that arcs back this way, because the. bicep is being pulled one way and pulled. the other way at the shoulder and the.

elbow, it ends up doing more of a. stabilizing contraction than actually. being the prime mover for the movement. So, when you see people curling at the. gym and they're just kind of doing this, you're like, "Yes, that is training your biceps." But. if you just moved a little bit. differently, it would be so so much. better. Here's another example, squatting, right? For your legs. If you. squat really far back and not so far. down, like your glutes get hit okay, your. lower back and upper and mid back is.

going to get hit a lot. But because. there's not a huge change in your knee. angle, you're not getting a ton of quad. stimulus. If you stay more upright and. your heels and toes are on the ground. and you allow your knees to go way. forward beyond your toes as you stay. upright and sink down really low so that. your knee goes into one of these, oh my. god, it's all quads all day long. So, you want technique that is targeting the. muscle, it's very similar rep to rep to. rep, and it puts the muscle consistently.

through a range of motion that is in. that deep painful uh lengthened stretch. position. If you just have all those. three, everything else we can say about. your technique is just nuances and finer. points. Those are really the big ones. We talked about nutrition earlier as. well. So, if I want to make my bicep. grow and also drop off the weight around. the bicep so you can see it see it even. more, what should I be putting into my. mouth? The number one requisite for muscle. growth is protein.

Foods with lots of protein in them. ideally should be consumed three to five. times per day at roughly equal distant. intervals. Breakfast, lunch, dinner, totally fine. Even better, breakfast, lunch, dinner, evening snack. The average person needs. a little bit less than, let's say, a. gram per pound of body weight per day of. protein. Actually considerably less. That's kind of the top limit and a cool.

aspirational thing to shoot for. So, if. you weigh, let's say 200 lb, you should be consuming something like. 150 to 200 g protein per day. And 150. for almost everyone's totally enough. But if you're real serious and hardcore. and you just want that insurance policy, 200 g of protein per day. So, then if you're eating four times a. day, that's Oh, yeah. 30, 40, let's say 40 to 50 g of protein. per meal. Can I eat too much protein? And then and then it becomes fat or.

something. Uh that's uh so, protein by itself, no. If your protein is so high that your. carbs and fats are the same and you jack. up your protein super high but your. carbs and fats stay where they are, your. calories become excessive. That will. cause fat gain over time. But if you're. doing a diet where you have ton of. protein but you dropped your carbs and. fats and your calories are at. maintenance levels, you're not going to. gain any fat. It's not bad for your. kidneys. It's not bad for any other part. of your body. Excessive protein as a. health malady has been a myth the entire.

time. And that's one of those um notions. that people carry with them that "Too. much protein's bad, right?" Like, yes, if you've had kidney surgery, absolutely. Short of that, you're. probably good to go. You'll fart a lot and people will hate. you, but you know. You mentioned three to five meals a day. A lot of people are now in this camp of. of fasting and intermittent fasting. Yeah. and not eating often. Is it. possible to fast but also to gain muscle. mass in the way that you've described? Yeah, totally. It just won't happen at a. as an impressive rate. So, you have to.

make a trade-off for yourself. If you. want, you know, most jacked Steven that. you can be, three to five meals a day. consistently spread in almost to an. individual. competitive bodybuilders eat. that frequently and eat high protein. How often do you eat? Uh I eat at five. five times a day, four or five times a. day usually. And do you eat before or. after you train? Both. Okay. So, before. you train and after you train. Yeah. Do you eat different things? A lot. of times I'll train early in the morning. and so I won't train at all I won't eat. at all. I'll wake up and I'll have like.

a protein and carb mix shake with my. training. Totally optional. Super extra. credit. May not do anything at all if. you look at the literature, but I find. it a little bit compelling to do a. little bit of that. And then afterwards. I have my first post-workout meal, second meal, third meal, fourth meal, bedtime, wake up, do it again. What do. you take to get you going? Do you do. pre-workout? No. Why? No. Uh I don't do. any stimulants of any kind. Why? Uh I'm. just kind of cooked up all the time. naturally. So, like if you give me. stimulants, it's just going to go into.

the not so pleasant side of side. effects. Like I'm just going to be like. this and way too amped up, super high. anxiety, and my thoughts get to be like. I have less fluidity of thinking and. stuff. So, I just There's just a lot of. me, I guess. And so when I wake up in. the morning, I don't need anything to. get me going. I just go. And a couple. warm-up sets later, I have all the. energy I need. That's not everyone and. so. some green tea, some black coffee, or. some pre-workout 30 minutes before the. gym is great advice for a ton of people. I feel like pre-workout can't be healthy.

if you're doing it five, six, seven. times a week because some of that stuff. is so unbelievably strong. Like I've had. it before. I've got literally like heart. palpitations when I've had a pre-workout. and you know, they talk about anxiety, that anxious feeling. It can't be It. can't be help healthy for people to be. doing that frequently. It seems to be quite fine. It seems to. be quite fine. Now, at the extremes and. in for some individuals, it's not ideal. But um. the upper limit dose of caffeine in. milligrams per day.

at which we can confidently say most. people will experience the beginnings of. health maladies. is 1,000 mg. Mhm. And a cup of coffee has, depending. on which cup, 50 to 100. Now, some pre-workouts have 250 g. milligrams of caffeine, some have 500. Uh last I checked, Ronnie Coleman's. pre-workout has 550 mg of caffeine per. scoop or per serving. And so that's kind of a lot. Uh.

I If I took 550 mg of caffeine, you. don't take me to the gym, just take me. right to the hospital, put me in the. psychiatric ward, 36 hours later I'll be. okay. But for some people to get so accustomed. to high doses of caffeine that it's. supposed not unhealthy for them to. consume and also uh they feel quite. fine. So, I would say start with as. little as you need to get you going and. if you need to titrate and work up from. there, that's a good thing. The other. thing I would say is. I would have a compelling case for. pre-workout or stimulants.

If I ask you like, "Hey, how much energy. do you typically have at the gym?". They're like, "Oh, it's super great.". And they're like, "Should I take. pre-workout?" I'd be like, "No, there's. no compelling case for that at all." If. you're like, like I wake up in the. morning, some days I just don't get a. ton of sleep. and I need something to get me going, not every day, but sometimes, I'll be. like, "Hey, look, consider green tea, black coffee, some diet soda or all the. way up to a pre-workout if you need it.". But some people take it kind of as like. um. a like a religious thing, as a habit, uh.

as a ritual and it's like, "Dude, you're. training your forearms and biceps for 20. minutes total at 9:00 p.m. You do not. need three scoops of pre-workout for. that. I don't even know where it's going. at that point." So, some people get a. little crazy with the pre-workouts. The. end of the world is at at best needless. What's your stance on the whole idea of. calories in calories out? A lot of. people just focus on that as the the. sort of. the script to lose body weight, lose. body fat and gain muscle. Is Is that a.

useful frame to to use? And why do so. many people fail at it. if if it is a useful frame? Most people fail at it because they. don't consider both the calories in and. calories outside of the equation. And a lot of people fail because they're. very bad at estimating food amounts and. calories. They'll Someone will say like a. tablespoon of peanut butter. Steven, have you ever actually seen a tablespoon. measuring cup? It does not look like mom's tablespoon.

where she takes the peanut butter and. goes like, "Ah!". That's like four tablespoons. And so. they're like, "But I'm eating the. calories, blah blah blah.". Every time you take people into what's. called a metabolic ward. which is a study center where you're not. allowed to have visitors that bring you. food. the workers only give you the food that. you need and all of your exercise and. your output is controlled and monitored. and so is your intake. no one has ever violated laws of. thermodynamics. We give you a certain. number of calories and we expect you to. lose a certain number of weight. There's. a variance about that, but it you're.

going to lose the weight that roughly we. predict. If we account for all. variables, you're going to lose almost. exactly the weight that we predict. So, calories in calories out is. incontrovertible. In among. 90-something percent, 98% of people who. do research in the field and are. scientifically literate and educated. calories in calories out is not. controversial. It never has been. There. are some people who say, "Well, the. calorie counting didn't work for me.". That's probably because you did it wrong. or you weren't even concerned about how.

much protein you're taking in or how. many carbs or how many fats. There are. other details that matter. Like if you say. "I need a V8 engine in a car. That's all. that matters." Like, "Okay, well, there's no steering wheel and there's no. pedals." Cool. Like, well, "I need those. things too." So, calories in calories. out is the very core cuz without an. engine you're not going anywhere. But what types of foods you're eating. matters a little bit. Are you getting enough protein, carbs, fats? That matters a bit too. So, people. like to just bash calorie balance and. calories in calories out as well. It's. totally messed. It doesn't work. No, no,

it works great. It's just not always. enough to get you in the best shape you. can. But if you do it right as far as. net balance weight gain or weight loss, calories in calories out is actually the. only thing that matters. Tissue-wise, is that gain mostly muscle. or mostly fat? Is the loss mostly muscle. or mostly fat? That has not so much to. do with calories. It has much more to do. with proteins, carbs, fats, the quality. of food you're eating, nutrient timing. and all the rest of it. So, calories in. calories out is amazing, super. explanatory, critical but it's just not.

the whole picture. And that's really yeah, I guess because. so many people say they've heard about. calories in calories out, but they fail. at maintaining it. Now, that's really. about motivation and the psychology of. doing such a thing. Um some people have. said to me that our bodies want to. defend our weight. So, if we start. eating less, we'll become a little bit. more hungry. If we go for a run, after. the run or after a physical exertion, our body will try and make up for it. because it's programmed to try and. defend its weight cuz it's weight. correlates to our. ability to survive. Um.

Why do people fail at it? You One of the. reasons you said is because, you know, that they're not actually measuring the. calories correctly. But the. psychological reasons that it isn't. hasn't worked for some people. Can you think of many? Because when I. When people talk about calories in. calories out, if you look at the comment. sections on those videos, people say, "I've tried this and it didn't work.". Okay. So, first of all, I typically. don't look at comment sections of videos. because comment section is not. representative of the population. It's. not representative of the people that. watch your videos. It's not. representative of the hardcore. demographic that watches your videos.

So, just as a statistical artifact, every single claim by people against. calorie balance in that comment section. could be true for them, but they. represent 1% of the population. So, 99%. of people it works just fine. For 1%. they get into some kind of trouble. Usually that trouble is they didn't. count calories properly. They didn't. account for macronutrient profile, protein, carbs, fats. They didn't. account for nutrient timing or the kinds. of foods that they're they're doing and. so on and so forth. And another one is like you said,

sustainability. How long do I have to count calories for. in my life for me to get the body that I. want and keep it? It sure [ __ ] not going. to be forever. So, what I'll do is I'll. count calories for a few months, I'll. lose a lot of weight. Then I'll go back. to eating on vibes and the weight comes. right back. Absolutely. So, better than. just counting calories, what we want to. do is instill people with good eating. habits. If you learn how to construct. meals made of lean proteins, veggies, fruits, whole grains, healthy fats. you know roughly how to see how much.

food you need and how much food looks at. least like it's what you eat per day. If. you're checking your body weight. relatively often and. when your body weight starts to get a. little higher, you can kind of clean up. your diet a little bit. And when your. body weight's nice and low, you get a. couple cheat meals, couple kebabs, you. know, burgers and stuff. That's all. good. If you do that and you have those. healthy habits, whatever weight you lost. on calorie restriction, you can maintain. with very, very little work, not. counting a damn thing, just on good. habits. But if you count up calories, you do some weird diet where you only. eat like two foods, orange slices and.

protein shakes or something. Yeah, the calorie counting will get you. wherever you need to go. But then. afterwards, after the diet's over, you're like, "Well, some some Now what. do I do?" Like, "Uh good luck. Go out in. the world and eating the same diet that. got you fat in the first place." That's. the big kicker. People might say it takes too much time. to count calories. It leads to a an. unhealthy relationship with food. There's a big movement at the moment to. try and get calories off menus because. it's said to increase the amount of. people that have eating disorders and. things like that.

Is that a. conversation worth entertaining in this. in this regard? Sure, sure. Very few people. will develop eating disorders. based on increases in information they. are presented. I would actually call that eating order. instead of eating disorder. Most people who get eating disorders are. highly at risk genetically and with a. few other social circumstances. Eating disorders are. for example, the most.

deleterious eating disorders, anorexia. nervosa. seen not exclusively, but almost. exclusively in females of reproductive. age. They ain't calories on a menu doing. that. That's something you bring into. the table. Uh Usually because you have the genetic. proclivity for it. And additionally because you've been. in a social and cultural circumstance. where. not only were you the wrong person to. get ridiculed for your weight.

but also a lot of people ridiculed you. for your weight. And then you go all. careening off on this path where no one. can even tell you you're super skinny. anymore because you don't believe it. So, the idea that uh you're going to see. much higher prevalence globally in. eating disorders from putting menu. calorie labels on things is true by this. much at the margins and it's just. largely not the case. Adjacent to that is this idea of muscle. dysmorphia which affects. a lot of people, but specifically men, roughly 87%.

of men that are between 15 to 32 years. old that experience muscle dysmorphia. Which is what? So, muscle dysmorphia generally is. for whatever level of jacked that you. are, you think you are considerably less. jacked both in reference to yourself and. your own desires and in reference to an. ethereal make-believe comparator. population in your head. So, if you were. to ask me like, "Hey Mike, do you feel. jacked?" And I'm like, "Nope." You're. like, "Ooh, not good. Not a good sign.

Clearly he's jacked." And then you can. ask me, Mike, "Compared to other. 40-year-old Ashkenazi Jewish men, how. jacked are you?" And if I'm like, "Pff, I'm probably like. bottom 50% for sure, probably bottom. 25." You'd be like, "Okay, he's mentally. ill. Take him away." That is high-level. muscle dysmorphia, a dissociation from. any objective reality about how much. muscle you actually have. Do people overestimate or underestimate. their appearance as it relates to their. muscles? Uh dysmorphia is almost always cataloged.

as an underestimation. But but from your. experience working with people, do. people think they're more jacked than. they actually are? It really depends on the individual. Most people that are in gym culture, that are very invested, if you catch. them on their not-so-great days, they. think they're substantially less jacked. than they really are. And if you tease. it apart via conversation, they'll end. up being like, "Yeah, no no, I know I'm. jacked, but I'm just saying like" and. then it's aspirational like, "For my. goals,

I'm not as jacked as I would like to. be.". It's interesting cuz we typically think. of. women, think stereotypically in society, as caring more about their. body image. Mhm. But I've I've read a. lot of stats lately that suggest men. care equally about their body image, but. just in slightly different ways. And. then about the correlation between their. perception of their body image and their. own mental health and the link between. the two. Sure. Sure. Do you see a lot of. that? Do you see this link between. mental health and male body image? Yes. Huge proportion of psychological.

proclivities are genetic. The others are. very individually acquired. They change. through time. It's not as easy as saying. upbringing or family environment. So, the one consistent thing about how you. relate to the world and your own. thoughts is genetics. And a lot of the traits tend to. aggregate together. So, it is true to. say, on a spectrum, very nuanced, that. some people aggregate a lot of negative. psychological traits, and some people. aggregate a lot of positives. And there.

are absolutely people Everyone's a mixed. bag, somewhere in between, but there's a. little bit of this kind of. I don't want to use a a term for a. another mental illness, a bipolarity to. the distribution, right? And so, a lot. of people that are generally neurotic, they feel consistently. unsafe and unsure of themselves, are. going to be also the type of people that. when they get more jacked through. lifting, they're still not going to. believe that they're as jacked and. accomplished and awesome and alpha male. as they really are, because they're. always like, you know, to use the old. Jewish joke stereotypically, "Oy, oy,

I'm never going to be big." And it's. like, "You're already big." Like, "Oh, I. don't know. It could get It could get. worse tomorrow." And a lot of people. just bring that to the table. And so, when you get neurotic people jacked, they don't think they're that jacked. They're always like, "Oh my god, it's. always going to end." But if you take. not neurotic people and make them. jacked, you one week of lifting into. those people, they're like, "Dude, I'm. like Do you think I should turn pro in. bodybuilding?" Like, "Get out of here. You're just overconfident." So, it. really depends on who's doing the thing. Now, cultural stuff, social, who's in.

your circle. I'll give you a good. example. I have a lot of my closest friends have. no relation to fitness whatsoever. A. bunch of them are actually. neuroscientists, just randomly people I. knew in college that ended up being my. friends for life. And so, when they. assess their muscularity relative to. myself and my bodybuilder friends, they're like, "I'm in terrible shape and. I'm not remotely jacked." And they have. such a weird comparator population that. I always remind them like, "Dude, not. everyone looks like this." They go to. the store, they go to school, they go to. the bank and they're like, "Oh, crap, you're right. I'm actually the most.

jacked person at the bank. It's just not. like Gold's Gym where everyone's. enormous." So, if you happen to be in an. environment, let's say you're a. university student and you go to the. university gym and there's lots of. jacked people there and you're there all. the time trying to do your best, you. may, if you're neurotic to begin with, more neurotic, start to develop a sense. that you're just not nearly as jacked as. you should be or could be or whatever. But if you like hang out at an old. people home with your grandma and. grandpa all the time, you're going to. feel like Superman all the time, because. holy [ __ ] you're like you can do real. things and move furniture around.

And And so then go back to the point. about weight loss. If I'm trying to lose. weight, what are the biggest biggest. myths around weight loss that hold. people back and inhibit them? One is you have to be perfect. If I'm on. my diet, I'm good. If I'm off my diet, not only am I bad, but as soon as I'm. off my diet, I have sinned and there is. no solace for me. Um I A lot of people. have that falling off the bandwagon. thing where they'll eat clean food, whatever that means, diet food, for. weeks and weeks and weeks. They have one.

kebab, they have one cheeseburger and. they're like, "Fuck it. That's it, man. I'm done dieting. I'm. not a good person anymore." It's like. that whole dichotomizing and kind of a. religious approach, that hurts a lot of. people. Because in reality, if you just. eat a cheeseburger, your body's like, "Oh, sweet. Like I got a little bit more. carbohydrate stored in the muscle. I. recovered a little bit more. My diet. fatigue is actually lower cuz you fed me. some food. Tomorrow, I'm back on the. diet. I'm making even better gains than. if I didn't have that cheeseburger." So, it was so exhausting. And so, a lot of.

people have that approach completely. backwards and they're like, "I'm either. good or I'm bad." And that's really. tough. Another one is people think that. the approach to lose weight is the same. as the approach to maintain it. Um this. is really really really nasty, because. so my wife is a board-certified family. med sports med doctor, and she does a lot of work, international Olympic teams, all that. stuff. And she is looking at these formal. recommendations from medical literature,

and it's like, "Here's the kind of diet. you need to get to lose weight." And. then she was like, she followed up with. some of the professionals and she's. like, "And so, what about maintenance?". And they're like, "Uh yep.". "What do you mean, yep? What are you. talking about? That's not the. conversation." So, people think, "Okay, I'm going to clean up my diet. No more. ice cream, no more no more crisps, no. more Cheetos. I'm going to eat super. healthy. And then when I get to the. weight that I want, I eat continuously super healthy. I. never have ice cream again." What kind.

of bizarre world is it? And so, they'll. flop back to the other one. Where. they'll try for a few months after. they've gotten to the weight they like. to just eat completely super healthy, clean, everything like that. They lose a. little bit more weight. They're. exhausted. They're tired. Their food. focus is driving them nuts. They'll eat some ice cream and they'll. go, "I'm a sinner." And then ice cream, ice cream, cheeseburger, cheeseburgers, up they go, and then they regain all the. weight. So, a huge myth is the fact that. yeah, when you're losing weight, you got. to pay a little bit more attention to. what you eat. But once you've gotten to. that weight, you both need some time,

roughly every 3 months that you diet. hard to lose weight, you should be. taking about at least 2 months at. maintenance, just maintaining it. So, if. you weighed 100 kilos, now you're down. to 90, after 3 months, for about 2 or 3. months, just stay at 90. Eat mostly the. healthy stuff that you were, but throw. in a little junk in there. Maintenance, again, is much easier than losing. When physiologically. and psychologically, your diet fatigue. comes down after those 2 or 3 months, you're able, if you'd like, to start.

dieting really hard again to get to that. next goal that you have, or you just. live in balance for the rest. But if we. tell you like, "Here's your diet to make. you lean and healthy." And you're like, "Okay, how long do I have to do this?". And the doctor's like, "Forever.". What? What am I supposed to I'm never. I'm never allowed to have tiramisu after. dinner ever again?" And they're like, "Well, try not to." That's terrible. advice. And not only do medical people. too often say that, most people have. that in their heads. And it's it's a. very very untenable situation. One of. the big sort of. narratives that I was exposed to for. most of my life about weight loss is.

that 80% of it's diet. What do you think about those ratios? How much of weight loss is determined by. diet versus exercise? Yeah. Diet has a bigger effect than exercise. As a heuristic, I'm very comfortable. with 80/20. There are a couple reasons for that. One. is. there's the constrained energy. hypothesis. Uh it's also called Ponzer's paradox, based on Herman Ponzer's work in. physical anthropology. And so,

uh basically, they realized that the. amount of physical activity that humans. can do. has a range, but if you try to get. people to like double their physical. activity, you say like, "I'm not going. to change my diet. I'm going to work out. twice as much as the next guy.". Your body becomes so fatigued so. rapidly, and your metabolism adjusts itself. Your. physical activity that's not planned. exercise, like how much do you get up. when someone calls you? Are you still on. the couch talking to them? Or how much.

do you get up and walk around your. kitchen a bunch? Your body makes all these adjustments. So, if you try to really outwork a bad. diet, it doesn't work. And usually, you just. come back to the same physical activity. cuz you're too exhausted to continue, and then you failed. Whereas with diet, you can make some dietary changes, principle-based, like stop eating junk. food every day and just eat two pieces. of junk food on Friday and two pieces of. junk food on Saturday. Just that alone. is sustainable. Your body, as long as.

these are filling foods, a lot of. veggies, fruits, whole grains, lean. meats, you're not hungry. You're just. like, "Damn it, I want a bag of chips.". That's not a reason. That is mostly. psychological, it's not physiological, and thus dieting is just able to take. bigger chunks out of your calorie. balance equation without completely. destroying you. Now, that has limits as. well. You can't diet forever, so you have to. take it in chunks. Another thing is. this, in order to. burn a lot of calories, to lose a lot of weight, you got to do.

some serious work. The average person. will burn something like 100 to 150. calories per mile run. Oh my god, you start thinking about it. like, "A donut has 300 calories.". How fast, Stephen, can you eat a donut. if I time you? 5 seconds. 5 seconds, no problem. Boom. You're going to run 3 miles after you. eat a donut? No. It's insane. So, taking your diet, cleaning it up, reducing the junk, reducing the calories.

is not that hard. But, if you try to. fight off the nasty extra junk food. calories you're taking in with exercise, it's kind of like a three-to-one fight. You You eat two doughnuts at your work. function after work, you got 6 mi to run. that day. Nobody doing that. And that's. why. diet is such a huge factor. It's so easy. to do, {quote} {unquote}, damage with. it. And it's much easier to take control. of it versus with exercise, the boundary. layers are just smaller. And what you. would have to do to fight the bad diet.

is just grotesquely large and outside of. those boundary layers. I think it's a. look cuz I think people typically assume. that the way to lose weight is to go do. a run. Yeah. That's typically, you know, you'll see people in the gym. And if you. ask someone why they're on the running. machine, they'll probably say, "I'm. trying to lose some weight." Yeah. It helps a little bit. But, if you run. and you burn 200 calories extra per day, 3 days per week, that is 600 extra calories you're. burning through the week. That's good. stuff. You can lose some decent weight.

like that. Aren't you just going to be. more hungry though afterwards? Uh. typically, exercise does not dependably. increase your hunger in most people. So, uh uh depending on the context and the. individual, it's not a dependable thing. to say that doing more exercise. necessarily makes you more hungry, which. is kind of cool because usually you're. not really any more hungry. And if you. stick consistently exercise, but you. control your diet, you're good to go. Is. there a psychological component to that. why because because I've done the run, I. now feel like I deserve it. Oh, yeah. That's huge. And some people.

do have a hunger response. But, what you. put in your body after that could be. really healthy stuff that doesn't have a. ton of calories, is really filling. Or. it could be like, "We're done running. Pizza and beer." And then that's really. bad news. But, real quick, so let's say. you're burning 600 calories extra per. week by running 2 mi at a time or. whatever or whatever you run an extra 4. mi per week, right? 600 calories per week. What is that? Well, to burn a pound of body fat, you. need to get 3,500 calories per week out. of your diet or do 3,500 extra calories.

of activity per week. 600's a drop in the bucket to that. You'll never notice. I mean, yeah, after. a year, you'll lose like 2 or 3 lb or 5. lb or whatever. Nobody thinks in terms. like that. But, if they were to simply alter their. diet and keep training to keep the. calorie burn at a moderate to high. level, but take food out of their diet, especially through junk food, the total. calorie sink deficit they can make for. themselves is now in the hundreds of. calories per day. Now you're losing a.

pound of fat every week. Now you're. having big results. Is there a. preference between doing cardio or. strength as it relates to long-term. weight loss? Because I'm thinking if. I've got more muscles, then surely my. body's going to need more It's going to. burn more calories. Just by a small. margin. Oh, really? Almost unnoticeable. So, your your body versus my body, you're. not. burning more calories. I How much do you weigh? Um 90 I don't. even know it in pounds. It's about 92. kg. Okay, solid. So, I currently weigh.

Which is about 98 kg. 202 lb. 202. So, I weigh like 216 to 220 right. now. So, we weigh not too far off each other. Not too far off. So, it even though I. have considerably more muscle in your. opinion. I In my opinion. In my very biased opinion. Um no dysmorphia here. Uh. I would be burning. a teeny bit more fat or more calories. per day because of my higher muscle. mass,

but it's mostly my absolutely higher. weight. So, for example, the people in. the world that burn the most calories. and need the most calories to sustain. their body weight are the fattest people. in the world. That like lady that weighs. 800, 900, 1,000 lb, they just to keep. her the same size, it's 15,000 calories. a day. Wow. And if it was all muscle and no fat, somehow she was 1,000 lb of muscle, which would be sweet to look at, she. would be burning like maybe. 16,000 calories per day instead of 15. And probably even that's an.

exaggeration. Muscle mass doesn't help. you burn tons of calories. That's not. what it's there for. It is incredibly good for your health. It is incredibly good for how you look. Those things by itself make muscle mass. an awesome thing to do. But, it is. neither true to say that cardio reliably. over the long term burns lots of weight. off. And it is not true to say that. gaining lots of muscle burns lots of. weight off. What is really, really. critical is do you have a. well-controlled nutritious diet? And do.

you have an average moderate to high. level of daily physical activity? Dancing and swimming and running and. having fun and chasing your kids. If. you're on the higher end of activity, not psychotically high to where you get. super tired, just not being a total like. slouch, and making sure you're aware of. your body when you diet, that's what. really pays these massive dividends in. long-term weight control. It's not like, "Well, if I put on a ton of muscle.". That's great for everything else and. makes you super healthy and makes you. look really awesome. It gives you the. ability to like, I don't know, like do.

real world stuff, defend yourself, things like that. That's what muscle's. there for. It's not the greatest like. calorie sink in the world. I wish it. was. I'd be cheeseburger right now. So, in terms of supplements, are there any supplements you suggest. that I take if my goal is to lose. weight, but also to gain muscle mass. for the average person? No. There's no supplements? I mean, creatine? Creatine will not help with. weight loss. And for most people, it'll. temporarily gain you about.

2 kilos of body weight because it. attracts body water into the muscle. It's a cool look cuz I mean, I'm on. creatine right now. Can you tell? Mhm. Yeah. Yeah, really? All. So, creatine doesn't help you lose. weight in any meaningful extent. So, I'm. aware of no over-the-counter supplements. that simultaneously help you burn fat. and gain muscle. There are supplements. that are not over-the-counter that do. that quite well. What if What if I'm just trying to gain. muscle then? What supplements What. supplements would you recommend the. average person to be taking? Really. regardless of, I guess, goals.

If their goal is to be a little bit more. lean with their muscle mass, if their. goal is to build muscle, is it different. types of supplements you'd suggest or. Creatine works to build muscle. It's got. awesome cognitive benefits. It's just. healthy for you and it's great. So, 5 g. per day for most people of creatine. monohydrate, super awesome. Have you got to load creatine? I I remember when I was. I used to load creatine. That's. basically like a corporate scam that's. just trying to get you to consume more. creatine so you buy more. Yeah. After If. you load your creatine, which is like.

taking 20 g per day for a few days, you get to intramuscular creatine stores. that are optimal. like. in four or five days. If you don't load creatine, you get. there in like 7 to 10 days. And because. you're taking creatine either for months. or for life, it's just a moot point. So, creatine. loading is a gigantic waste of time in. almost every case. Okay. So, creatine works. Whey protein, casein protein can be an. excellent way to conveniently get. protein.

So, they're more like foods rather than. supplements? Those are totally cool, but. not mandatory. If you talk to me like you are now for. just several hours at a time. Let's say. we're sitting on a plane together and. you're like, "I'm just a guy who's. trying to get like a little bit more of. this, a little bit of that. What. supplements do I need to take?". is the wrong. time to ask that. The time to ask that. is like, "I want to take a run at a. natural bodybuilding show. What. supplements do I need?" Okay, then they. pay some dividends that are worth. noting. But, supplements are just not in. the conversation for important things.

that health-conscious people should have. in even in their top 10 of important. things they need to do. The top 10. important things are like getting. adequate sleep, managing your stress. really well, consistently lifting. weights, consistently doing a high level. of physical activity, et cetera, et. cetera, et cetera. Those are the big. rocks, not supplements. Supplements are. insanely overrated as a general rule. This next challenge is offered in. partnership with Whoop. Does the idea of. waking up with more energy, a clearer. mind, and a feeling of control appeal to.

you? If it does, I want you to join me. this Sober October. I stopped drinking a. while ago now, and it was largely. because of Whoop. Time and time again, I. watched my heart rate variability drop. to like 40 after having a drink, even. one or two glasses of wine, when it. would otherwise sit nearer to 150. The. only other times it would drop this low. was when I was sick or when I was. stressed. Information enables us to make. more informed choices, and seeing this. led me to make a change in my life. So, if you're a member of Whoop, look out. for Whoop's Sober October challenge in.

the app. And if you haven't joined yet, head over to join.whoop.com/ceo. to start your free trial. That's. join.whoop.com/ceo. And get ready for your life to change. What about steroids? They're great. What? Am I allowed to say that? What What What What are steroids? And. you said you take steroids. Mhm. Um do. you take steroids all the time? And. Mhm. What is the impact? So, say if you.

weren't taking steroids, how different. would you look? I know this because I I used to not take. steroids. And when I wasn't taking steroids, I uh weighed about at at a body fat. similar to this, uh I would have to weigh probably a 180. lb. 80 to 190 lb, more like 180 in in this. kind of body fat level. I currently weigh uh 216 lb because I'm.

on a moderate amount of steroids. A few. weeks ago, actually earlier last week, I was on. higher amounts of steroids. And with. this same level of body fat, I weighed. 227 lb. So, we're talking about 30, 40. lb of muscle tissue difference between. steroids and non-steroids. Have you got. a picture of before and after? Before. when you didn't use steroids and you. trained and then after. Yeah, it's got. to be somewhere. We'll try and get it. just just just for visual clarity. Sure.

sure sure. You said they're great. I was kidding. All right, you They're great for putting. on muscle if you want to jettison your. long-term. health and longevity to some extent, yes. And your course medical stuff. As. someone that's never done it, give me a. window into. what you do do you inject it somewhere? You can take steroids orally through. pills or you can inject it into muscle. Okay. So, usually you would inject it. into your quads. A lot of people do. their shoulders and some people if.

they're flexible enough do their glutes. And how quickly do you notice a. difference and how big is the the. difference? Just to give me sort of like. your. As far as jackness is concerned? if I start taking steroids now, yeah, how how long would it be before I. notice a difference and how extreme. would the difference be in your opinion? Visually after a few months you would be. like, oh wow, okay, this is some other. [ __ ] After a week or two you'd be like, I don't I don't know. My workouts feel pretty good. Uh. psychologically if you're especially.

introspective and perceptive and you're. sensitive to the psychological side. effects, which I'm greatly sensitive to, um I notice in 30 minutes of taking. steroids. And would I. if I did the same exact workout but took. steroids, would I get different results. or would I have to ramp up the workout. that I'm doing to see those different. results? Both. Okay. If you have the. same workout and you take plenty of. steroids, you can literally double your. muscle gain from that workout.

If you understand that steroids also. allow you to recover faster and better. and more completely, you can take your. workout and magnify it, more sets, etc., more sessions per week, and then you. would grow like two and a half times as. much muscle. Sounds exciting but there's always a. downside for these things in life, isn't. There are a few downsides, yes. What are. the downsides that no one's talking. about? That no one's talking about? So, there's cosmetic downsides. You get an. increase in body hair growth. This is especially profounder for. female, but if you're a male, that's a.

thing. I have hair that grows on my. ears. I have hair that grows on the. outside of my nose. I have to shave the. front of my nose now. A lot of that's. just me being a Russian Jew and that's. hair just grows out of our eyeballs, but. [ __ ] happens. You get pimples, you get stuff like. that. Over the longer term, you get an substantially increased risk. of heart disease. If you're smart, you take blood pressure. drugs to counteract the blood pressure. increase. If you're dumb, you take it on. the chin and you have a high. probability, much higher, of kidney. failure later in your life and losing.

your limbs and your vision and all that. good stuff that comes with that. There is an increased probability or. severity of cancer. Steroids increase the probability of. damn near every disease, kind of central. systemic disease that you can have. But that usually happens much later. And. so while you're on them, you deal with. the cosmetic side effects, increased. probability of balding, uh. and the psychological side effects, which are highly unpleasant. I can get. into in a bit. If you're a teenager, there's an entire class of steroids that.

close your growth plates early. So, if. you're under the age of definitely 22 as. a male and you take steroids, there's a. very good chance you will never reach. the adult height you were supposed to. reach if you just let nature do the. thing. So, when teenagers take steroids, it's just almost always categorically a. super super terrible idea. Also, they're. not intelligent enough uh yet. Some teenagers are very smart. They're. not wise enough yet to be able to make. that trade-off appropriately. Mhm. And. so that's a huge sort of different.

topic, but um. the psychological side effects are a lot. of times the things that. are the proximately most displeasing. part of taking steroids. Some people. like them. They're they're also a mixed. bag. Tell me about the. Before we get on to the psychological. effects, what about libido? Because I've. heard all kinds of things. I've heard it. shrinks your balls, your your your. willy. Something like half of all people. will ex- experience testicular shrinkage. while using steroids. Your boy got. lucky. My shit's all the same size. A.

lot of people, roughly half, will. experience a decrease in ejaculate. volume and a profound decrease in. fertility. That does not mean you're not infertile. I know many people I know many people's. children that were fathered when the. people were on steroids. So, if some. people are like, ah I'm on gear, I could. just bang away and nothing happens. Like. that's not true. Uh steroids have never been shown to. uh change the size of your willy. Uh. there is no mechanism by which really. they can do that. Um so, that's not a.

problem. But steroids, depending on the. steroid you take, depending on your own. individual biology, depending on the. ancillary drugs that you take along with. it, uh steroids can either have no real. effect on your libido, have a profoundly. upregulating effect on libido or like. hunger like you would not believe. And for other people, you get um. an increase in libido, but some. steroids, for example, deca durabolin in. some people, it's a type of steroid,

radically escalates your libido. You. turn into just this hungry and at the. same time gives you in many cases. dependable. um. inability to sustain an erection. So, erectile dysfunction risk goes up a lot. That's a real big problem cuz like you. want it, but it's not around it's not. around for the picking there. So, there's all that kind of stuff plays. plays a huge role. And a lot of the. other side effects are. increases in anxiety, increases in. aggression, um increases in.

disagreeableness and probability of. confrontation. Steroids have been shown decently well, this isn't super confirmed, to at least. proximately while you're taking them, substantially reduce your fluid. intelligence. And uh they may in the. long term reduce your overall. intelligence, but it seems that if you. stop taking them you get most if not all. of that back. But maybe not all of it. So, they do make you dumber as a as a. general heuristic, that's probably true. Of these psychological implications,

which ones have you suffered with the. most? Decrease in fluid intelligence, for. sure. Radical increases in anxiety. Radical increases in aggression. Um I pride myself on never losing my. cool. I've never screamed at anyone. I've. never gotten physical with anyone. But the ideas in my head that tell me to. do things, tell me to do unspeakable. things. Like what? They're unspeakable. I'd have to speak them.

You really want to know? Mhm. Um. I'm also [ __ ] weird, so just remember. that. No, I we all are a bit weird. Most. people uh probably don't have this. severity, but. I'll read a comment. on social media. directed at me, I guess about me, um and it's from like, you know, nameless, faceless profile, and I begin to fantasize. about what it would be like and how much.

sublime pleasure I would receive. in. uh hurting that person at a deep. physical and emotional level. Uh badly. Hurting them in such a way. that they're never going to walk right. again and they're always going to. remember me and how they dared to cross. me. Do you know what honor culture is? No. Like the idea that like in the hood, you step on someone's like a gang. member's Nikes and he just blasts you. away and goes to jail for 20 years. Over.

what? Steroids, the honor culture comes from. maleness. It comes from testosterone and. other brain structures, of course, but. the more testosterone and steroids are. all testosterone-like molecules. If you have 10 times the. testosterone-like action affecting your. brain, your proclivity to falling into. honor culture like behavioral patterns. and thought patterns increases to an. enormous extent. So, you tend to take. things that are not meant in any poor. way as affronts. If they're actually. meant as affronts, you tend to.

catastrophize them in your head and like. this is the thing. Like I'll be brushing. my teeth in the morning, in the shower, and like thinking about people in my. life that have wronged me. I've never. been wronged in any real serious way. And I'll just be like, those mother. and so. uncontrollable fantasies of rage and. aggression and righteous anger and. revenge. I hate that. Like as a. philosophical-minded. person, I just want to hug everyone in. the world. Right now I'm on not so high.

levels of steroids. I'm just man. I make. jokes with every I'll start. conversations with random people on the. street, no problem. And so. when these thoughts consistently enter. my mind on higher doses, I'm just like, why? And I'm never like, I should be. feeling like this. I'm like, this is. really annoying and really terrible. So, if there are all of these. physiological and psychological. implications, which, you know, you said. it basically increases your chances with. all of the major diseases from cardi-. cardiovascular diseases to cancers to.

um other diseases, but then also there's. this ongoing psychological consequence. of. taking steroids, what's the point? That's a good question. Recently I've taken. a probably several year backseat away. from competitive bodybuilding. precisely because I have a lot of really. good things going on in my life. and I'm going to need my brain and my um. more fluid civility.

to deal with them best. Uh and for a couple of other reasons. So, right now is an interesting time to ask. me why I do it cuz I'm kind of like. winding that down big time. Mhm. But. um. the real reason. is uh one of the reasons that I started. steroids is I was drug-free for a long. time. and I was starting to become a kind of. an educator in fitness and a promulgator. of opinion. And a lot of the people who were in the. industry at the time, this is not as.

true anymore. Now drug-free bodybuilding. and fitness is exploding, which is a. beautiful, wonderful thing. But back. when. uh Nick and I came up uh to be relevant. in the fitness industry, you sort of had. to be like super super jacked and super. super lean. It's nothing we were going. to accomplish drug-free. So we were like. this this is where the road leads to. being taken seriously as a. thinker in the space. Let's do it. Another thing is um. I really like being or at least for a. long time liked being enormous and. ripped. Why? And um just like a.

ch- like. you ever see how a 4-year-old looks at. like a garbage truck or a tank or an. airplane like. just that. Why? It's as simple as that. Biology and I'm at the extreme end of. masculinity brain-wise to begin with. And so you you see a movie where like. the Hulk rips off an airplane wing and. throws it. Some people be like woah, some people are like I hate this movie. and some people are like. oh my god, I want to just be that. that whole thing. Why? I want that. It.

just feels good. But do you know why? Because have you. got any hypotheses as to why why you. versus. someone else? Cuz the average person. doesn't. have that feeling. Mhm. So have you have. you been able to figure out in hindsight. why you were so taken by being big? I have a few ideas. I'll I'll I'll come. I'll come up with this idea with the. following. Um retrospective analysis of why you do. things is almost always grotesquely. flawed. Most of why we do things is a. combination of variables we don't. understand and genetics. And so like the.

whole life story arc, well it all. started with a t-shirt in the third. grade, like that's [ __ ] That's a. backward justification you made up. So. the following statements are backward. justifications I'm making up as just. tentative very. not sure hypotheses. Um. uh here's a fun story. This will be fun. Um when I was uh small. uh young, my dad would wrestle with me a. lot. And um. he would always.

uh let me win in the end. He's great. He's a great person. And he would always. tell me that I was strong. and capable. And then. uh in like. uh. end of elementary school all the way. through the beginning of high school. I was bullied. Honestly, like literally. a few times. I think I was just the. wrong person to bully. because that very temporary state of. disenfranchisement and powerlessness.

um. I'm never going to be bullied again. Uh. to put to put it simply I wish I was. logical enough that when like if if I. was getting robbed by someone at knife. point or not even knife point, just like. just a guy try to be like, "Hey man, get. out of my way." No. I said, "Get out of my way.". I'm going to die here before I move out. of your way. You're going to treat me. with respect or one of us is either. going to jail or the morgue or the.

hospital. Mhm. It's a terrible thing to think. It's. stupid beyond belief. Just be like, "Sir, my apologies. Please keep going.". But. What were you bullied for? Nothing. Nothing. Just kid just wanted to bully. people. But what I want to know is the con- what. was going through your brain at the. time? Like what you were thinking in. that moment? Cuz I think we can all.

think back to well. uh two unfortunately too many people can. think back to a time when they were. bullied in some way, whether it was a. day or whether it was something that was. a bit more prolonged. You know, when it. became and they started to it started to. embody that sort of pain and shame and. that feeling of I'm different from these. other kids. Some of my best friends have. talked if you know, they've been to. therapy and their therapists have. I think figured out through some of that. retrospective analysis, which obviously. a lot of the time isn't accurate, that. much of their adult behavior today. correlates back to an early experience. in such a way where they were made to.

feel a certain way in that social. environment where we're so sort of. formative. Yeah. How did it make you feel? I felt scared. And I felt like I um wasn't brave enough. to stand up for myself. Mhm. Later I. began standing up for myself and that. felt very nice. But. it I felt like I was out of control and. a part of my brain that I didn't consent. to made me frown. and dip my head down for me. It was.

almost like musculature in my neck just. deactivated. It it's a ancestral uh mechanism that. everyone has. Uh kids all the way up through teenager. and adulthood sort themselves male. children into dominance hierarchies. It's just the dominance hierarchy. sorting itself. And someone confronted. me. and I automatically sorted myself. beneath them. I felt beneath someone. I felt weaker, more inferior, less apt, less capable, less confident, less strong. And I. didn't even have consent to it. It's not.

something I chose. I wasn't going to. this kid'll beat me up. I better not. It. was totally. uh a subconscious behavior. And looking. back on it, I did not enjoy how that. made me feel. Do you remember a specific. day. or a specific thing happened? Cuz I can. think back to a. couple of specific days when I was. younger that I think shaped me in that. regard where I was pretty much the only. black person in the school. I remember. an evening where this particular kid. called Sam had like cornered me and. called me the N-word and everyone was.

there and you know, I'll never forget. those days. They're like etched into. your mind as. you know, unforgettable memories of. pain, of shame, of that that feeling. Mhm. Do you do you have those? No, yeah. A. particular day? Yeah, sure. share that with me? This is getting deep, huh? Um. I have a few incidents. One probably stands out the most. So it was a kid named Darren and he was.

black. Um. almost certainly fatherless. Um. He had naturally physically developed. for his age. He was 10, so was I. We were just wrestling. I wrestled with. everyone. He beat me in wrestling. He was the only. person I believe to beat me in wrestling. my whole childhood. Cuz like he was like a 14-year-old kid. in great shape and I was a 10-year-old. kid.

And. he beat me in wrestling and that was. cordial cuz like kids just wrestle. But he had braces, I think. And he cut himself. while wrestling with me and he was. bleeding out of his mouth. And then he got really upset about that. And he like kind of stood over me. And he was like like, you know, you. little this and that, like. you did this to me, like I'm going to f. you up and all this other stuff. And that's when that mechanism switched. When he did that to me, my whole.

perspective on the world changed for. years. I was like a confident, happy kid. And. then after that for four or five years, maybe longer. all of my confidence drained out. I. became introverted. I am not naturally. introverted. And um. that his presence alone. uh reminded me that. I need to keep my head down. and otherwise I get real scared. And I didn't want to be scared.

And so that's how that worked. And it. wasn't like he got something like your. [ __ ] is racial, that's deep, bro. My. shit's not deep at all. It's just two. kids and one of them punked it out. I. was just the wrong person for that to. happen to. And I remember fantasizing. when I was in like sixth grade, I think, like a year later. like. wouldn't it be great if I brought a. baseball bat to school and just broke. his legs and just kept hitting his legs. to where he'd never walk right ever. again cuz he wronged me that bad.

I felt that deep and true. I'm going to. keep the statement as contextual as I. can with full understanding of respect. for the gravity of what I'm saying. When the Columbine people did what they. did, I thought it was egregious and. terrible. I also understood how you. could be pushed to do that. Now in their. particular case, I don't even know how. they were pushed or whatever, but enough. bullying will make you consider doing. terrible things to regain your honor. And so that was probably like the most.

pre- I I was bullied in other. situations. Again, like I might have. been bullied three or four times my. whole life. But it just it just did not. sit well with me at all. For a long time. it changed how I expressed myself to the. world. And even right now as I talk to. you, I'm getting pretty emotional. I'd. say that if I see that guy again in real. life, if he's even around. I have a brown belt in jiu-jitsu now. I'm almost certainly bigger and stronger. than him. Is he safe around me?

Probably. Can I guarantee his safety if he brings. it up? No. If he watches this and hits me up and. goes, "Hi, I got you, little bitch.". If I see him in real life. I might take something from him. medical science can't give him back. within the next five or 10 years. What a terrible idea. I'd go to jail. I have a lot of really good things going. for me. It would be wrong in every. single way. It wouldn't even be ethical. because he never like beat the crap out.

of me or anything like that. It was not. like he brutalized me. Oh my god, like. I'm going to [ __ ] someone over some. [ __ ] childhood beef. It's also. he was 10. The gravity of how deeply it feels to me. even right now at age 40 is like man, yeah, that [ __ ] definitely meant. something. It's interesting cuz um. I think for the first. I'm 31 now, so I think for the first 27. years of my life, if you'd asked me why. I do what I do, I would have in. hindsight probably told you a story that. sounds a little bit heroic. I I have. this drive and have this motivation and.

I had this goal and I went after it and. it was all like self-agency and all that. stuff, but the more and more I've. learned about I think psychology. generally and how humans as I often say. are sometimes driven and they're dragged. and it's hard to tell the difference. Mhm. Like whether something is drive or. whether it's like you're being dragged. Mhm. Um Compulsion. Like compulsion that. you just can't explain. um because of maybe a trauma or an. experience you you went through or maybe. the the household you grew up in. I. think I'm I'm leaning more now towards. the.

dragged side of things in most areas of. my life, especially where I exhibit. atypical behavior. Like what? Like for. the fact that I work like 7 days a week. and I can just and I'm I've always been. absolutely obsessed with like. achievement and success. So why do you. think that is? Because I think I I grew. up in a context where the thing that. invalidated me was that. Like we were. the poor family that didn't have things. and I was black in an all white area. Um. and I was just full of shame growing up.

And I think I saw the the medicine to. the to the shame as being material. success. It was the thing that I lied, cheated and stole to try and achieve. And you know, it's been my orientation. for my whole life. I think deep within. me is this this story that. success and material success and all. those things make me enough. Mhm. And I I didn't feel like inside, yeah. And I didn't feel like I was. enough. And as much as I'm aware of that. now, it doesn't mean that it's going to. stop. Did it So it didn't Do you feel like. you're enough? Well, it's interesting.

because if you ask me, do I feel like. I'm enough? I'd say yes. I'm very comfortable with who I am. Like. I think I have somewhat of an accurate. reflection of. of who I am to some degree, but I'm but. then I also I contrast that with the. fact that why am I still just like. obsessively driving towards these ever. bigger goals in a way that's really. really atypical. Like not the average. person. You know, and why does it matter so much. to me, you know, that that's where I go, okay, there's.

something different in my wiring. It's. still an an element, this sort of. proving my worth to myself or you know, proving to the kids back on the. playground that. you know, they should respect me in some. way or whatever. Yeah. And it's. complicated. I say this not because it. sound makes me sound great cuz it. certainly doesn't. I just say it because. of. I really believe that more honest I can. be with myself, the closer I can get to. everything that I want. Oh, sure. Like the closer I can get to holding the. steering wheel, not being dragged. with with a rope at the back of the car. I'm trying to hold the steering wheel in. my life and that starts with like an.

honest self self-awareness and one that. honestly has only come from. uh. being more and more confident and caring. less about what people think. Like I. wouldn't have said this on camera. There's like millions of people probably. listening right now. I wouldn't have. said these things about myself. It. sounds icky. Oh, I've never told this. bullying story to anyone but a few. people. Yeah. I was like when you. brought it up, like tell me about when. you were bullied, in my head I was like, holy [ __ ] all right, like this is where. this goes. Well, I just think it's. everyone I've met. It's not you're not. you're the same as everyone I've met in. that regard.

Probably if I had to write that fake. back story arc explaining my life, the. bullying thing is like kind of a little. bit minor. I have a really gnarly story about. having really severe attention deficit. disorder when I was younger while at the. same time growing up in an Ashkenazi. Jewish family. For Ashkenazi Jewish. Russian immigrants to the US, you were. either good at school or you were. worthless. And it's not just that my. parents thought that. They didn't really. think that at a deep level. They did. believe it at a surface level. I thought that. You can't make fun of someone for being.

fat if they're cool with being fat. They're like, yeah, I'm [ __ ] big, hell yeah. And you're like, ah, didn't. work. But if they believe that being fat. is terrible, you can be like, hey, how. much do you weigh? And. that's it. Everything changes. me, I believed I had a destiny. to be at least competent at school. And. up until I was 14, I was like in. contention for being the worst student. at any single school I attended at any. single time. And the bitter sweet. element was my dad is a PhD in. mathematical modeling of atmospheric.

physical phenomena and my mom was a a. translator of the Russian language or. translated English to Russian and got a. master's degree in social work in her. second language in America a few years. after we got in. That's the legacy I'm. dealing with. And like I can't do math. problems three grades younger than the. kids. I I got held back in school a. grade. And so I took that not so well. And so later because I was medicated for. attention deficit, it was a revelatory. experience.

As I came up and sort of grew into the. idea that I was actually fairly. intelligent, um I had something to. prove. And it's getting better now because I've. taken enough IQ tests and you can only. write so many books and be on so many. podcasts until people like, you're. pretty smart. And you got to you got to. start believing it unless you're totally. irrational. At some point that sinks in. So one thing I will say is. there are ways of dealing with demons. and uh insufficiencies that you've. developed through your childhood. Some.

of them are just having a real deep. personal journey in your own head. consistently reinforcing good attitudes, not reinforcing the bad ones. Other ones. are talking to friends, family. Other. ones are therapy, which is excellent for. this. But I got to tell you, Stephen, I'm not sure if this is true, but there's got to be something. to proving the opposite is true. To doing it all. To getting I don't know, the top or. whatever, but to like. no one in their right mind would at this.

point be like, this guy is below average. intelligence. That would be preposterous. to say. I've taken the Raven's Advanced. Progressive Matrices test. and I pegged it scale high. So you get. every single question right. And so my. IQ is above 160. We don't know how high. cuz they don't do standardized IQ tests. above that. You do that enough times, you enough PhD. programs, enough book, enough teaching. awards, enough authorships, enough all. the stuff, enough millions and app. designs and all the stuff. and dealing with otherwise really smart. people and they walk away being like, [ __ ] that guy is real smart. Enough of.

that. makes you swim in a warm, comfortable. sea that heals you in a way that maybe. therapy can, but god damn, there's something to just. doing the [ __ ] thing. You take a. skinny little kid who's bullied, you. make him a Muhammad Ali champion of the. world. Enough title fights later, you. look at Muhammad Ali, what you going to. do about this? He doesn't even flinch. So yeah, it's nice to say and I think. it's true that therapy and self-care and.

all these things can heal the soul. There's something about overcoming and. becoming superlative to that thing you. used to fear. that might heal your soul to a huge. extent. I think maybe I've witnessed. that. Again, maybe this is all just. make-believe. It sounds real nice. No, I. I completely agree and it's perfectly. what I've experienced in my own life. And as you were speaking, I was thinking. it's just so clear to me that. when you're young, you get. evidence. You get like a stack of evidence about.

who you are and what the world is. And. what you then have done for the next 10, 20, 30 years is to. counteract that evidence with new. evidence. I think about it like a. library. I think everything that I went. through and you went through when you. were younger just added like one book to. the shelf. The interesting context of. the library is those books are both in. informative, they're both you know, non-fiction books, but they're also. fiction books and they're also. instruction manuals for what you'll do. in the future. If you think about those. first 18 years of your life, what you. did is you filled this library full of. ink books, stories, self stories. And.

this library that you've you've. collected is just a bunch of stories. that you believe about yourself. Now if. you want to change some of these. stories, unfortunately, you have to get. new books. Yes. So what you did in your. life is you pursued um hard things that. would put new books on the shelf. And. when a new book comes on the shelf that. counteracts another one, you have to. take the old one off. But you can't you. can't just sit around willing the it's. it's as you say as an I've experienced. in my life, the only way I can put books. up there is to go and get first party. evidence with my own eyes that something.

else is true. And not just once. Over. and over and over. Depending on how. stubborn the existing book For sure. And. if they're real stubborn, here is my. question to you. Do you think that. childhood experiences. build the kind of books that are. hardback Lord of the Rings type of. shits, whereas adult experiences that. completely countervail a childhood. experiences are like little magazine. you'd read on a plane? I got so in the. analogy, when you're a child, you put. books on the shelf very quickly.

They're they're all very cheap books. because there's nothing on the shelf, so. you're just grabbing your mom says pigs. can fly, on the shelf. As you get older, actually because. there's so many books on the shelf. already, and let's say if I just focus on this. analogy of pigs flying, there's already. a book about aviation on the shelf. Mhm. Which means it's harder to believe that. pigs can fly. There's a book already. about animals and their anatomy, so you. can't add a new one because there's so. many counteracting ones already. So this. is why they often say that young kids. adopt, you know, you can't teach an old. dog new tricks because there's so much.

existing evidence there of something. else being true. So kids throw them on. the shelf without much interrogation. because there's less counteracting books. there already. Whereas adults, they take. a little bit more time to add a new one. because they've got six other books. which might tell a different story. Yeah. And so this is, you know, if we. think about neuroscience and. neuroplasticity, it becomes a little bit. harder sometimes for adults to I mean, I. had a neuroscientist here yesterday. saying this to me that it becomes after. you get to possible to 25 years old, neuroplasticity becomes a little bit. more stubborn. It's still possible up. until you die, but it's a little bit. more stubborn. So you just need more.

reinforcement. You need more. reinforcement, more evidence, more. repetitions. And he described it as more. focus. Yeah. Focus on the thing. One thing that I I. found maybe is helpful is my my wife is. similar to me. She's like an insane. super goal-driven psychotic person. And. we have a real trouble. taking a step back and telling ourselves. like man, we're doing pretty well. So. every now and again like evenings and. weekends, especially weekends, we'll do.

some like sounds super lame but. gratefulness discussions. Uh. depending on who you talk to, I guess. To my old childhood bullies, that's me. But um you know, it's really weird to. say some of these things out loud to. yourself. And uh there's some. resistance, especially early, um. admitting to yourself like I. I won. I won. I won. I won. I did the. thing. Maybe it doesn't work quite that. simply, but I think it it's good to try.

because it's a really weird thing to go. and be 60 years old and look back on. your life and someone's like, "So what. have you accomplished?" Like, "Yeah, not. much. I kind of ain't shit." And like, "I've seen you on book covers." You're. like, "Right. Oh, that's right. Okay, so I. accomplished a lot, but I don't feel. like I have.". How dare you rob yourself of being able. to swim in that beautiful warm sea of. self-actualization. I think it's worth. it for people to focus when you do good,

let yourself bask in that glow. Get your. time under the sun. Amen. And it's all about subjective. progress. It's all about like this I was. going to do a post last night. I was. thinking like so many people spend their. lives I was just I was scrolling through. Instagram and I was I wrote the post and. I just didn't post it, but so I I. noticed that so many people go through. their lives like looking for an enemy, like looking for the person or the. system or the government or the. political party that's currently. wronging them and they commit their. whole life to just this this focus of.

who's wronging me and I need to point. them out and call them out and scream at. them. And I've never I've never fallen. trap, but um I do have a competition. with myself. Mhm. And I feel like that's. very healthy because what I'm actually. looking for in myself is some form of. progress, whether it's how I show up or. with my my fitness or with my muscles or. whatever. This constant um. search for progress in myself and then. when I do discover progress. I can celebrate it and I can have that. gratitude we talked about. And so. anyone's progress, whether it's when I. went from being a university dropout to.

getting my first investor, that is like, "Oh my god." And it's only in hindsight. and with some. aging wisdom that I start to realize. that those moments were so unbelievably. important. They're so motivational. identifying your progress. And I've done. There's two kind of data points that. have really um shone a light on this for. me is one of them was Sir David. Brailsford who took the British cycling. team from being down and out and. depressed to the greatest team of all. time winning all the gold medals. And he. said yes, the marginal gains thing that. he's known for, that's in the front. chapter of Atomic Habits with key.

But actually he said to me, he went, "When you can get a group of people or a. person to feel like they're going. somewhere because they have a sense of. progress." He goes, "That's what made us. um. stay in the bike shop till 2:00 a.m. in. the morning." And I read another study. from Harvard Business Review where they. asked people in their in to keep work. diaries and then at the end of the study. they said, "Point to the day where you. had your best day in work." And people. always pointed in their work diaries to. a day where there was a feeling of. subjective progress, even small. Yes. And that makes you motivated. You feel.

like you are going somewhere, which. means you're more likely to do it. So. gratitude serves a happiness um role, but also just a motivational one. We. have a closing tradition on this podcast. where the last guest leaves a question. for the next guest not knowing who. they're going to leave it for. And the question that's been left for. you. Oh, crap. What is the most. meaningful dream. brackets nightmare. you've ever had and why?

I don't know if this is the most. meaningful. dream. Um. but. Jesus Christ, I'm really going to say. this. Fine. Um. as I was when I was a young adult. I was starting to experience success. with the opposite sex. And I just did not ever experience that. when I was younger or already of age but. younger. It's just probably like a bit.

of a hang-up, you know, for most people. it's kind of like when you're not. getting any feel kind of out of it. And when I started experiencing success. with women. my dreams at night changed. And one of. them was uh. I think the following dream has nothing. to do with females and sex, but it's had. to do with power and it had to do with. um. an ability that you can. I ran out of my. childhood home into the street and um.

I uh. it wasn't the street anymore. It was. just a black empty void and it became a. lucid dream. So I kind of knew a little. bit that it was a dream. It was like, "Ooh, I'm going to do cool Dragon Ball Z. stuff." Do you know what Dragon Ball Z. is? The anime show? And I opened up my hand. and I wanted to make a fireball and I. made an energy ball that was like a. singularity size, but it was made of. people's screams. It was like. and then I woke up.

and I was like, "That was so cool." Not. victim screams, just Viking screams. And. I was like, "That is the coolest shit.". And I had multiple other dreams in my. young adult life after successes with. women, which were dreams of power. And I. was like, "God damn, if I can have those. dreams every night, it'll be super. happy.". That's the most interesting dream I've. ever had about following someone losing. their virginity. I didn't SAY I LOST MY. GET OUT OF HERE. I still haven't lost my. virginity. I've been a good person.

Dr. Mike, thank you so much for your. your wisdom and your. your information and all the work that. you've done in your life because it's. formed a wonderfully important. perspective on a subject that so many. people struggle with. I'm going to ask. you I'm going to leave you with my with. my last question, which is. what is the most important thing that we. didn't talk about today as it relates to. the subject matter of getting in shape, building muscle that we should have. talked about? Is there anything we left. off the table? There's a lot to this, so we left a lot.

out. Um I have a lot more to say about. body dysmorphia and how people do relate. to their bodies and how they maybe. shouldn't or try to weave their thoughts. away from various ideas and how maybe. they should try to relate to their. bodies better. And it's a conversation I. love to have. I just don't ever get. asked about it super often. So I think. that in in body dysmorphia in general,

in self-esteem as it relates to bodies. of guys that grew up to be skinny, of. girls that grew up to fat, I think a. combination of getting the body that you. want, soaking in the sun and really. being like, "I'm the hot girl now. This. is really happening." And how to relate. to your body, there's a plethora of. wonderful conversation around that that. um. if I had a time machine I'd go back and. interrupt you and just be like, "Let's. talk about that instead.". Maybe we can save that for another time.

Dr. Mike, thank you so much. Where do. people find you? Your YouTube channel is. incredible, so I'll link that below. Just YouTube. Everything links off of. YouTube. And you've got your app as well, which. people can go and check out. Links off. of YouTube as well. Links off of. YouTube. Two apps. Okay, so if I go to. your YouTube channel I can find. everything. Boom. Great. Mike Dr. Mike, thank you so much. Huge honor and. pleasure. Thank you so much. Every single time you eat, you have an. opportunity to improve your health. And. that's why I love Zoe because Zoe helps. me to make the smartest food choices for.

me and my body. And as you guys will. know by now, Zoe is a sponsor of this. podcast and I'm an investor in the. company. And if you haven't tried I. highly recommend you do because Zoe. combines my health data with Zoe's. world-class science and using those two. things, Zoe guides me to better health. every single time I make a food choice. and eat. Which means that I have more. energy, better sleep, better mood, and. I'm less hungry. And the most important. thing is Zoe actually works. It's backed. by their recent clinical trial, something called the Methods Study, which is the gold standard of scientific.

research. I started Zoe just over a year. ago now and I've been able to track my. progress week after week so I can learn. how to be even smarter the following. week. And if you haven't joined Zoe yet, I'm giving you 10% off when you join Zoe. now. Just use the code CEO10. at checkout. Isn't this cool? Every single. conversation I have here on the Diary of. a CEO, at the very end of it you'll. know, I asked the guest to leave a. question in the Diary of a CEO. And what. we've done is we've turned every single.

question written in the Diary of a CEO. into these conversation cards that you. can play at home. So you've got every. guest we've ever had, their question, and on the back of it, if you scan that. QR code you get to watch the person who. answered that question. We're finally. revealing all of the questions and the. people that answered the question. The. brand new version two updated. conversation cards are out right now at.

the conversationcards.com. They've sold out twice instantaneously. So if you are interested in getting hold. of some limited edition conversation. cards, I really really recommend acting. quickly.

I'm a fool. I'm a.