The More Successful You Are The Longer You'll Live! Will Storr

shouldn't raise your children to believe. that they can be Beyonce. The chances. are they can't. Will Storr is an award-winning author of. six critically acclaimed books. His. ideas are disruptive, challenging, and. life-changing. And some of them will. make you feel incredibly uncomfortable. People don't like to talk about this. stuff. 99% of self-help books never. mention genes. They want to promote the. idea of well, I can be who you want to. be. But a huge amount of who we are is. who we were born as. That myth of you. have full control over yourself as a. human being, that's the problem. It's.

not about embracing your flaws. It's. about accepting your flaws. Our lives are full of status pursuit. The more status that you earn, the. better everything else gets. That was. true 10,000 years ago, it's true today. The brain is highly attuned to where we. sit in a pecking order. The lower we are. down in that pecking order, the more. unhealthy we became. If you take two. smokers, the one higher up is less. likely to die of a smoking-related. disease than the one lower down. That's. mental. It matters massively.

How do we advance in the status game? There are kind of three general types of. status games that we can play. First game is the. Without further ado, I'm Steven. Bartlett, and this is The Diary of a. CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if. you are, then please keep this to. yourself. Will, first of all, thank you for being here. Um. take me right back then to your early.

years, cuz I think when when I was. reading through your different books. here, throughout them you have glimpses of. your own perspective, and it hints back. to what I read about your your early. years. Um. so, take me back right back to the. start, you know, before the age of. let's say 12. Mhm. Okay, so yeah, um. I was brought up in Tunbridge Wells in. Kent. Um. middle-class family, very Catholic. Um. it was quite.

Victorian, um. strict, superstitious, religious. upbringing. Not the happiest upbringing, I have to say. Why? Um because my. parents were very strict. My father was. very strict, especially. Um and uh they. were very much in the grip of their kind. of Catholic belief system, which I just. didn't never like always baffled me even. as a kid. Like, what. you know,

can you believe this stuff? I don't want. to a Catholic school. So, so and I was. quite uh. I I was probably a difficult If you were. to ask them, they'd say I was a. difficult child. Um because I was pushing against that. all the time, you know, I thought it was. crazy. I wasn't very good at authority. and rules. So, it was a bad fit, I would. say. Um and I think that's what's, you. know, one of the things that that's kind. of driven. my interests into adulthood. My you. know, my my my second book, The. Heretics, was looking at.

why do otherwise smart people believe. end up believing these crazy things? Cuz. my parents are smart people, but um yeah, you know, they believed in. heaven, hell, Satan, all of that stuff. I I think that's how my childhood has. informed my interests as an adult, trying to figure out. how how that happens. In your in your book Selfie, you you. talk a lot about self-esteem Mhm. and. the role that plays. What was your Give. me the context of your how your. self-esteem was shaped in those early. years?

Uh well, um. how it was shaped in those early years, I guess it was. poorly would be the answer. Um I think. the. you know, because. my behavior was not great, the. continual message I would get from. teachers and parents was that you're. you know, you're a bad person, you're. going to end up in prison, you're going. to end up in care. Um uh. yeah, so so so so so there was very. little kind of positive feedback in my.

in my childhood, which I think is. that that causes damage that you're. never going to get over, I believe. Do you think you you never get over that. damage? Yes, because I think, you know, we're. all born with a certain kind of. personality, with a certain genome, and. that that's not fate. That doesn't. define who you're going to be forever. Um but but but it sets you on a certain. course. It makes you vulnerable to a. certain kind of mindset. Um and you. know, it I think a good childhood, a.

good upbringing can. you know, correct that to a certain. degree, but a bad one can can set it on. a sort of negative course. And I'm quite. a neurotic person. I'm anxious. I I've. always worried a lot. So, so when if you. take that kind of natural personality. type, high neuroticism, and add into. that a. childhood which kind of reinforces that. sense that. the world is dangerous, that people are. out to get you, all of that stuff, that. that that that that that reality isn't. safe. I I I.

and then, you know, what happens is your. brain is still being formed really up. until you in your mid-20s. You know, that that it's in your mid-20s when when. that that when that kind of learning. process is. um uh stop. And so, it's very hard and. probably I would argue probably. impossible to reverse. 18 years of. that kind of. feedback. once it's happened, because that's those. are the years in which your brain is. learning how the world works. And and. so, yeah, so I I I don't think it's. fixable. That that's one of the the.

ongoing um. conversations or debates or things that. I've kind of been chewing over from. doing this podcast and and listening to. to people from all walks of life that. have achieved amazing things that still. have um underlying trauma or sort of. self stories that are controlling their. their their life and their behavior. And. I I I spent a long time talking to. people about whether you can ever truly. eradicate some of these traumas. They're. like the puppet master that's in the. back room controlling your your biases. and all these things. And my conclusion.

over the last literally weeks has been. that we can diminish the power that our. early traumas have over us, but they're. always going to be there. And is that is that where you find find. yourself but in terms of your belief. that we can diminish the power of those. stories, but they'll always be there? Absolutely. That That's exactly right. That's what I believe. Exactly. Yeah, that we can definitely diminish their. power. And. you know, I'm 47 now, and it still. amazes me that you still you never stop. learning, and you never stop learning.

about yourself. You never stop learning. about things you get wrong. And got to. stop doing that, you know. It's overly. simplistic to think of consciousness as. this battle between reason and emotion. Um uh. but but but there is something like that. going on. Like, you know, our emotionality is usually in charge of. what we're thinking and what we're. doing, you know, we respond emotionally, and that voice in your head then tells a. story about what you're feeling. And. usually it's to justify that emotion. It's to say, yes, you were right to feel. like that. You were right to respond in. anger.

and hostility at that person. And then. the next day you think, oh, maybe I. wasn't. You know, so so um I think what we call. what used to call reason, that. reasonable voice in your head actually. often isn't reasonable. It's just. justifying. and um validating your initial emotional. response, which is, you know, sometimes. right, sometimes wrong. So, so I think. what you're doing when you're learning, for me anyway, is you're is you're. learning actually. what I mean, I mean, almost a parenting yourself to.

to turn that voice in your head into a. someone that isn't going to be a harsh. judge or. uh on the other extreme, someone who's. just going to accept and validate and. defend everything every behavior you do, every thought you have, every mistake. you make you make. You're looking for. that that balance all the time. And then. you're looking to spot. I think you're looking to spot those. occasions on which you're making the. same mistake over and over again, you. know. Have you got a harsh judge in your head? Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I have. I I you know, I'm so I'm.

self-employed. I've been a I've been a. writer for, you know, without an. employer for 20 years. You you kind of I. think you have to have a harsh judge. to get yourself out of bed, to get. yourself in front of the computer, to do. 8 hours plus work a day. Um so so so I. think to It's kind of weird. I think I. think to achieve any anything. significant, you've got to There's got. to be a harsh. harshness to. I'm just trying to think whether judge. is the right. right word. Like, I read recently that.

the ideal parent is kind of firm, but. also kind and caring and understanding. And I and I think that's what. I think that's If that's the ideal. parent, I would think it was really that. that that that's that's the ideal of who. we should be inside our own heads, really. You got to have that balance. Um and I think you can you can go you. can go wrong. in either direction. Your book Selfie. Yeah. Um what was the. I mean, I love the name. It was very of. the time in 2017 as well. Last year.

Um what was the inspiration behind. writing this book? Right. So, the book before that was. called The Heretics, and The Heretics. was, as I said before, it's going to be. inspired by this idea of why do how do. smart people end up believing. crazy things? And so, that that book was. all about when we have these stubborn. beliefs that kind of that that are. irrational, that we don't let go of. So, I was hanging out with Holocaust. deniers. I was hanging out with. creationists, UFO believers, people like. this.

Um and then. in the promotion for that, I was asked. again and again and again by people, so. what makes people change their minds? You're saying that people can never. change their minds. And I didn't have an. answer to that question. I kind of have. to bluff through it. So, I thought, that's, you know, I don't understand that. So, um maybe I should try and find out. So, I was a journalist at the time as a day. job, and so I started interviewing lots of. people who changed their minds, like in. big dramatic kind of powerful ways. Um one of those guys, um, was this uh. amazing psychologist called Professor.

Roy Baumeister. Um, he spent his kind of early. professional career in the self-esteem. era of the '80s, you know, when and this. is the era I was brought up to, when. everything was about self-esteem, when. it was all about that the kind of. message out there was, "If you want to. be successful, just love yourself. You're amazing. You're fantastic. You. can do anything that you want." You. know, it was Whitney Houston, um, "The. greatest love of all is yourself." It. was it was that kind of era. And I. remember it from school. I remember. like, you know, the teacher saying to. me, "The problem with you, Will, is you. just have low self-esteem." And they. used to call self-esteem a social.

vaccine. And if you if you loved. yourself, it would mean that you would. be more successful, you'd be happier, you'd have a better marriage, and you. know, uh, in America they they thought. that self-esteem was going to solve. homelessness, um, the gang culture, um, teenage parenthood was a big moral panic. of the time. They thought it was going. to cure that. So, and he was like, "Well, is it true? Is this actually. true?" And so, they looked into it and. they found actually that there was no. evidence that that any of this was true. That that every study that quoted it as. being true just referenced another.

study. And he he he went on this. breadcrumb trail of studies. They were. all just quoting each other and there. was no actual evidence that any of it. was true. And they just they they. actually tested to see whether that. self-esteem myth was true or not. Um, and it wasn't um, it wasn't true. Um, it. was it was originally based on this idea. that they this this observation that, um, school children who did well in exams. also had high self-esteem. So, they. assumed that having high self-esteem. made you good at exams. But actually, they had high self-esteem because they'd.

done good in their exams. It was it was. the other way around. It's kind of it's. obvious in retrospect, but that's what. they you know, so that that was the. error they made. Correlation causation, that old chestnut. Um, so so so he, um, published this study and the initial. response was just, you know, it was. absolutely torn to pieces. Um, it was either ignored or attacked. Um, but slowly he was proven to be. right. And so, when I was I I I wrote a. profile of Baumeister and, um, you know, he was a fascinating guy. Um, and then what what I realized was that.

this idea had, um, not just changed a person, but it. changed the culture. Like, the whole. culture of the West, Britain, America, Canada, and lots of Europe, when I was growing up in the '80s and. '90s, it was obsessed with this idea and. it's just was just wrong. It's. completely wrong. So, that was the. that's the heart of Selfie. It was this. like this this idea of an inner. How did selfie culture happen? How did. we become so self-obsessed? And and the. self-esteem movement is was a big part. of that story and it's the kind of it's.

the it's the kind of central story of. the book. Chapter zero. Yeah. Um, the. dying self. was a was quite difficult to read. Ah, okay. Yeah. I thought it was a very, um, you know, you explore topics like. suicide and, um, your own sort of self-doubt and things. like that and, um, your own suicidal. ideation at times. Why did Why did you choose to start the. book in that way? I suppose I wanted to start the book. there to show, you know, why this matters. You know,

where where I ended up with in the book. was. that this idea that we live that we are. in the West individualists. Yeah, you. know, we see the world as made up of. individual pieces and parts and we are. individually responsible for our fates. We are individually responsible for our. success and our failure. And there's. lots of good things to say about that, you know, it's it's an extremely. motivating way of. organizing your thoughts, organizing. your life. Um, you know, I am responsible for me. and and I will take care of me. Um, but.

it's also kind of savage, you know, and, um, it it it it means, you know, that. that kind of Western myth we have is. that, um, you know, that you can do anything that. you want, just put your mind to it, you. can achieve it. That that that kind of. mindset. Um, but but very often we fail. And so, if it's true that you're. responsible for your success, then it. only logically follows that you're also, um, responsible for your failure. Um, and so, um, these individualistic ideas accelerated. in the 1980s and that's because of a.

variety of things. It was the. self-esteem movement partly, but the. self-esteem movement became successful. because we because of the Thatcher. Reagan revolution is my argument, neoliberalism. That we changed the. economies of the West. We changed the. game. You know, before the 1980s we were. much more collective. It was much more, um, you know, socialist even in America the. top rate of tax was 90%. You know, it's. it's extraordinary. Uh, um, so so but. and and then the economy started going. wrong in the '70s, so. the neoliberal revolution happened and.

and the idea, the central idea that, you. know, Reagan and Thatcher pursued was. we're going to increase competition. wherever we can. To reduce the social. safety net, privatize everything. Just everyone's. got to be competitive. And it changed. who we are, you know, it it. when you change the rules of the game of. life, you change the people who play. that game, which is what my latest book. is about really. And so, we became more, um, competitive. as a people. And and what's what. psychologists find is a major study that. found that since, um,

the you know, the onset of. neoliberalism, levels of perfectionism. have increased massively in the UK, in. America, and in Canada. Uh, and, um, perfectionism is implicated. in suicidal ideation, in eating. disorders, in steroid abuse, and, you. know, and self-harm, and so on and so on. and so on. So, so that's why I wanted to. begin the book there really to show why. this matters. You know, this this it. isn't just a kind of abstract academic. exploration of the self.

You know, I wanted to begin with this is. how it affects people. If perfectionism can be quite an. insidious, um, issue in Western cultures where we're. getting more individualistic, what is a. better approach do you think to take for. What is a better message to share with. society in the world about, um, about. that? Um, I I I think, you know, I like the. idea of you know, I I I I think the idea. that I kind of develop is. in Selfie partly it's about. self-acceptance rather than self-love. I.

think self-love, um, is that you know, I. used to be a massive fan of Big Brother. when Big Brother was on. And and there was always a thing in Big. Brother where, um, somebody would behave. completely obnoxiously. They'd be like. rude, aggressive, just deeply. unpleasant. And they they would always. defend themselves in the same way. They'd go, "Well, I'm just being me. That's just me. And if you don't like. me, you know." And and I think that's. the that's the self-esteem movement. talking. It's like I'm my I'm going to. be my authentic self and if you can't.

handle that, that's on you. And I think. that's wrong, you know, you know, we're. a social animal. We've we we we have. evolved to exist cooperatively. And I. think when individualism, I think. there's a lot to say in its defense, but. when it goes too far, that's where it. becomes it becomes that kind of screw. you. mindset. So, I think self-acceptance is. different than self-love. Self-acceptance is I'm flawed, broken. animal, uh, you know, as we all are. And, you know, a little like what we're talking about. earlier on, it's about being that harsh.

but loving parent rather than that. rather than being your own defense. lawyer, you know, being being that kind. of harsh but loving parent. And being. accepted, you know, having this. acceptance that you are a flawed and. limited animal. Like, you know, you. you shouldn't raise your children to. believe that they can be be Beyoncé if. they want to be Beyoncé cuz the chances. are they can't. She's like an. extraordinarily talented and driven. individual. She's the one in a billion, you know. So, uh, you know, so I think that's an unhealthy message.

to by which to raise our children and. also, you know, talk to ourselves. It is. much more about understanding our our. strengths, our flaws, and kind of. finding the right games to play, to find. that that little corner of the world in. which we can feel, um, of value. I think that's that's what. we should be trying to do. Had your parents told you that you were. Beyoncé and had those schools told you. that you were Beyoncé, would you have been happier, do you. think? Um, I mean, I was sometimes told that that I.

could succeed at school, but I just. wasn't applying myself and it's such a. waste. It's such a waste. Yeah. Um, but it's so weird, the school thing. I mean, I I have to say I think I went. to a really bad school. Um, it was a comprehensive school. Um, you know, you hear these stories about. teachers that inspire you and I wish it. wasn't for this teacher. I never had. that teacher. They were all just really. bored and resentful. I remember going. into class and there's one teacher who. would just open his folder, "Where were. we?" He'd.

he'd read from his folder for about 50. minutes and that would be the history. lesson. You know, and that was the. school I went to. It was miserable. And. I and I'm I always wanted to be a. writer. And I was always in trouble. I was. always this sort of problem student. And. I had this English teacher who was quite. nice called Mr. Lanaway. And I thought, "Well, you know, I'm going to write. start writing short stories in my spare. time and I'm going to give them to my. English teacher." It's just a way of. getting like, "Look, you know, I've. written this thing." And so, I gave him. a couple and I think I gave him number. three, you know, after written on a third. weekend, thinking that I that he was In.

my head he was thinking, "Oh, Will's, you know, William has found this thing. that he's actually applying himself to. How amazing." And he said to me, "You know, this is all just extra work. for me, don't you?" Like that. He he. kind of scolded me for giving him extra. work to do. So, I stopped I stopped. writing those, you know, short stories. And I just think if I if I if I'd have. actually been encouraged to be I was. never encouraged to be a writer by. my school or, you know, I I wrote a. school magazine and that that caused me. all kinds of trouble as well.

So, so so I was I never actually had any. encouragement and I I I do kind of think. if I was actually encouraged, um, to be. a writer, I would have probably got. there sooner and probably been a better. writer today. On that point of Beyoncé. though, it seems to me that if someone. had turned around to you and said, "You. you are Beyoncé and you can do anything. You could be an amazing writer." It. seems to me that that that actually. might have helped. Yes. Yeah. Yes, but. but that's what I mean about identifying. your strengths. Like I think for me. writing was a strength, but nobody ever.

And and if that was identified. And if somebody said to me, "God, you. know, you should carry on writing. these.". Literally, if one person one adult said. to me, "These short stories are you. know, they show real promise. You should. carry on writing these." It would have. blown my mind. I would have got I would. have definitely carried on. Um but I. just stopped, you know, I just stopped. Uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh. uh uh uh uh so yeah, but that's what I. mean is I I think the mistake is Um. somebody you know, in the research for. Selfie, this Harvard psychologist Brian. Little said it's the myth of unlimited. control. That myth of you can you can.

you know, you have full control over. your yourself as a human being and that. means that you can do anything. That's. the problem, you know, that's the. problem. Uh and but actually I think. what what what you should do is identify. what is this person. passionate about, you know, and what are. they actually what they actually good. at. And if and if and if and if somebody. saw or promising me as a journalist or a. writer then that that's what they they. should have encouraged me in, but it was. actually just a battle. In um in the in the chapter the good. self in that book chapter four, you talk.

about um the different forces that are. controlling our behavior. Mhm. And uh it made me think I've you. know, that I've also had this this. ongoing thought about how control of. of my life I. over what the forces are that are. actually controlling my life cuz we tend. to believe obviously, as we would from. this first-person view, that I'm making. my decisions. But when I It sounds quite I don't care, I'm going to say it. When I reflect on. the stories I've heard from men. regarding. their behavior.

before they've ejaculated and after. they've ejaculated. it is pretty it's And I actually said. this in like podcast number four when no. one was actually listening and it was. just me and under the stairs in. Manchester. I said the change that I saw. in my behavior or how I felt before and. after ejaculation is extreme. And I. watched Rogan talk about this. He. described it as being. before ejaculation at the back of the. bus and you're just being swung.

around the He said it's foggy, there's. papers everywhere and then it and then. it says post-ejaculation, it's like you. zoom forward onto the wheel of the bus. and go, "Oh, what was going on. there?" Yeah. And you gain back control. Yeah. And just this um it for me that. was one of the clearest signs that my. decision-making as is not as intentional. as I thought it was. Yeah. Um and you talk about that kind of. thing a little bit in that chapter. You. talk about a study where um men are. asked um a variety of different.

questions while they're masturbating. Mhm. Can you can you share that study. and also like what you learned from it. about the way that we make our. decisions? Well, I haven't that was I haven't read. about that study for a good 5 years now, but I think it was something about they. were asked a series of questions about. um. Were they asked a series of questions. about what they were doing in certain. Yeah, it's like their sexual preferences. or something. Would you would you be. attracted to an animal? Would you be. That's it. Yeah. Quite disturbing.

Yeah. And I I think before they'd. masturbated their their answers were. much more extreme in the direction of. yes, I would have sex with an animal. Yes, I would pressure somebody into. having sex than they would after um. masturbation. And I think most men can. can read that study and go. you can relate a little bit to Not not. that I'm saying that you know, most men. would have sex with an animal, obviously. But but but how our how our. um. how our thinking is different. And and. and you know, I I and and and I love.

studies like that because it I I feel. like it. You know, when we when we when we when. we when we when we feel a different way, we do almost become a different person. Like I remember writing in Selfie about. um you know, when I'm trying to lose. weight again and on Monday morning, I'm. absolutely resolute. It's like I'm going. to. keep my calories down. I'm going to. exercise every day. I am a machine. I'm. a stoic. I'm athletic. You know, that's. who I am. But by Friday evening, I'm. just like, "Ah, sorry, I'm going to go. back. I.

I need to have some chips." You know, and it's like it's not just that you. feel a different way. It's almost that. you've become a different person, by. which I mean you have a different. personality. You're much more loose and. happy and good to be around on Friday. than you are on Monday if you're like. that. Uh but you have a different value. system. You On Monday, I value this set. of things. I value discipline and order. and structure. And on Friday evening, I. value fun and laughter and pleasure. So. it's it's it's so it's so it is that we. almost.

you know, I think pre- and. post-ejaculation, we almost become a. different person. Monday Monday morning. versus Friday night, we become different. people. So I think that you know, we we. we're so fluid in. in who we are depending on how we're. feeling. We don't want to be there. No, it's not how we think of ourselves. We. think of ourselves as a yeah, certain. kind of person. Yeah, with with this as. a certain. boxed-in set of values and behaviors. I. think you know, there's probably. somewhere above 50% of people listening. that can relate to that Monday issue of.

you know, on Monday I am you know, a. Greek god and I am. disciplined and I am everything I'll. become everything I want to be on by you. know, by next week. Um and then. something happens. How does. I would be remiss if I didn't ask. What. can you tell us about how to stop or how. to maintain or be consistent. as our Monday selves? Is there anything. you've learned about the psychology. there that might help us to be our. Monday selves come Friday? So in in Selfie, I write about um how.

important it is to change our. environment rather than try rather than. change try and change ourself. Mhm. Uh I. I I I I I I I I I and the kind of exact. the the kind of story that I tell is I. call it the the lizard and the iceberg. where if you take a lizard from the. desert and pop it on an iceberg, it's. going to be a very unhappy lizard. If. you put it back in the desert, it's. going to be happy and thriving and. wonderful and nothing has changed in the. lizard. It's the environment that's. changed. And I and I and I and I think. part of being an individualist and is. that we look into into ourselves, to our.

behavior to um explain the causes of our. behavior. But actually, you know, so. much of. of. of our behavior is controlled by what's. going on around us by by our. environment. You know, and the reason we. feel you know, Friday on Friday is cuz. cuz it's Friday and that has a cultural. resonance. That is Friday night. Yeah, I. think thank it's Friday and and. we're on 5 days a week so we feel. different. Um so so so I think a lot of. it is about changing our environment. You know, there is a lot to say about you know, if.

you take yourself to the gym, you've. changed your environment. Um if you um. if you can check. certainly with things like weight loss, I mean it's a lesson that I never seem. to learn, but do not have that stuff in. the house. Oh my god. It is guaranteed that you will eat it. Um you know, it's it's it's a drug uh. and and so I so I so I think. I I I I I think maintain your. environment to maintain yourself. You. know, I I I think that's that that's one. of the one of the key takeaways that. I've learned.

How to stay alive in the age of. perfectionism? How does one stay alive? One of the. interesting things in that chapter was. um you kind of debunk this idea that. alcoholism for example, and a lot of. these things that you know, that I've. spoken to guests about on this podcast. that they've suffered with um don't. necessarily stem from having an unhappy. childhood. Mhm. I've got a friend that you know, he's very public about the fact that he. became an alcoholic and um I I guess I. believed it was because of traumatic.

early events. I I tended to believe that. that was the case, but you debunk that. quite clearly. Um and and kind of assert that. personality is the causal factor in in. most of our predispositions. Yeah, I I. think one of the things that I've that. I've learned um. well, that certainly that from research. in that book was the was the incredible. power of personality and the incredible. power of the. of the of our genes. Um it's really. people don't like to talk about this. stuff um because it it it it they they. feel it's disempowering. So whenever you.

read a self-help book most of them, 99%. of self-help books never mention genes. because it's unhelpful. They want to. promote that idea of 100% self-control. I can be whoever I want to be. Um but. but but but but genes are so important. Uh as I said, it's not that they dictate. who we are or you know, or um you're. you're you're born with a kind of. blueprint and that's all you're ever. going to be. Um. But but you are born with a certain kind. of genome, you know, with a certain. level of.

likely neuroticism. openness to experience, extraversion, um. agreeableness, you know, how how kind of. happy or kind of angry or competitive. you are and so on. And so you're born kind of with a. certain prevailing wind and then your. childhood experiences mostly um will um. do the rest of that wiring up. So by the. time you're in your in in your kind of. 20s, you're kind of who you are. Like. not 100% cuz still traumatic experiences. can break you to pieces, you know,

you're you know, lots of things can. change, but you're kind of who you are. As I said, you know, people don't like. that idea because it really goes against. our individualist kind of credo of you. can be Beyoncé if you want to be. But it. is nevertheless true that that a huge. amount of who we are is just how we were. who who we were born as. You know, and. I've got that addictive personality. I. was an alcoholic. I haven't I I had to. give up drinking when I was 26 cuz I'd. lost control of how much I was drinking. and I still struggle with kind of you. know, sugar now. I I I've swapped booze.

for sugar is is my problematic behavior, which is much easier to manage. Um so so. so I get it and and and but but but. yeah, it's it's not it's. I think part of the fact that we're. these storytelling animals um. I think since 70s, since it's probably. this well, even the 60s, we've had this. kind of therapy culture which wants to. go archaeological digging in our pasts. for the causes of our. um all of our problems. And you know, I.

I think there's. there is a certain amount of um truth to. that stuff. Like I I'm sure our. childhoods affect us. Um but but um there are we tend to blame. everything on our childhoods, everything. on our parents. I think alcoholism is. one of those things that. is mostly genetic. You know, you've. either got that problem with addiction. or you don't. Can it Can it Can it be accelerated by. trauma though? Because you know, when I. when I speak to psychologists, they. often talk about it being a form of. escapism.

in many ways and other drugs and you. know, other self-medications being a. form of like trying to escape pain or. trauma. Definitely. Yeah, I think how how to think about it is. that it's um. you can have a vulnerability to it. Yeah. Um and that's the genetic. component. Um and if something bad. happens to you, then you're much more. likely to kind of fall into that. versus someone else who doesn't Yeah, versus who doesn't. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. On that point of storytelling, you. mentioned storytelling there in our um. in our narrative. Your your book in 2019.

was about storytelling. I having worked. in marketing was very compelled to to. read this book for the probably, you. know, we talked before we start. recording that a lot of people will see. a book about with the word storytelling. on the front of it and think that they. can use it from a marketing capacity or. in business sense. What have you learnt about how people. can tell great stories in the context of. business and marketing? Yeah, well, so quite quite a lot. I teach a I I. teach business storytelling Section 4, which is a American EdTech.

organization. So I So I do a. course there on in the science of. storytelling for business. Um and you know, we we are storytelling. animals. We we we we think in story. We. we you know, narrative is basically. you know, how we experience ourselves and and. life. And so as I say in that course, if. you're not communicating with story as a. marketer, you're not you're not. communicating. You know, logic and facts. and data and statistics, that's not the.

language of the brain. The language of. the brain is a beginning, middle, and. end, a character overcoming obstacles. I. think a lot a lot of the stuff we've. been talking about is important, especially. that idea that people think with their. feelings. You know, they it's feelings. first, story second. The story justifies. the feelings. And so if you want to tell. persuasive stories, you need to first. understand exactly who you're. communicating with, and you need to. understand. how they feel about the world, how they. feel about themselves, how they how they.

feel about um you know, justice and what. their values are. And so that means. understanding them kind of tribally. What what groups do they belong to? Who. are their heroes? Who are their. villains? What motivates them? What. demotivates them? So So before you can. sort of write the story, you need to. figure out how they feel about the. world. So a bad story then would be one that. was cuz you know, I I thought about this. a lot in my previous business was very. successful in storytelling. So my first. company, Social Chain, it's going to be.

a very big business, maybe a thousand. employees worldwide. We were we started. out as a as a marketing agency, never. had a sales team. Because we we focused. on telling stories. Those stories were. told on social media and on stage by me. So when I would go up on stage and talk. about our agency to try and win business. from Apple or Coca-Cola, whoever it was, I would actually start by talking about. my my relationship with my mother. Mhm. And that would be the first sentences. out of my mouth when I walked on stage. if there was a thousand people or 15,000. people there. It would be about my.

mother. And through that story about my. mother and my and my upbringing and my. battles and all those things, eventually. you'd learn about our business and what. we do and about the great work we do. But that was the preface of it and. that meant we never needed a. a sales team. I've always believed that. if I'd walked on stage and started with. a case study, Yes. I would have. I would have I would have had to have a. sales team at Social Chain knocking on. doors. Definitely. And I think this is. one of the biggest mistakes businesses. make. When they pitch, when they when. they speak on stage, when they post on.

social media, I think they have a they. believe that the the listener wants. big numbers and to hear how many views. they got for their clients or for yeah. And it just doesn't seem to be. consistent with reality. No, it's not. I. mean, so what you're doing when you're. going into about your mother is you're. connecting emotionally. So people are. you know, wanting they're on your side. immediately and and you're making them. feel good. You're making them feel. things emotionally. The the kind of framework that I use for. business storytelling is that is that is.

that you know, essentially people's. brains process reality um in the same. way. And that's the you know, so so. they're the hero of their story. You're. not the hero standing on the stage. The. company that that that's selling to you. isn't the hero. They're the hero of. their own story. Um they are you know, they've got goals they're trying to. pursue. We all have you know, that which. are the plots of our lives. The audience. Yeah, the audience, the. person you're selling to. And then. there's a brilliant story analyst called. Christopher Booker who wrote this. amazing book called The Seven Basic.

Plots. And he writes about um archetypal. characters in storytelling that he calls. light figures. And so the light figure. is the example he uses are the three. ghosts in. A Christmas Carol, the Charles Dickens. Scrooge story. So Scrooge is the hero of. that story, but the three ghosts come in to show him. Christmas past, Christmas present, Christmas future. They help him get what. he needs, which is to become a better, more selfless, more generous, more. loving, giving person. So they So they. they are going to they arrive in his.

story to kind of show him the way, to. help him get what he needs. And so that. that that that's what I argue, that's. the appropriate position for most. companies and organizations and leaders. is not to be the hero because your. audience feels like they're the hero. You're the light figure. You're there to. help them get what they want. So when. you go straight in with here's all my. awards, here's what this person said. about me, here's some statistics and. stuff, you're not a light figure, you're. presenting as the hero. What people. really want to know is how can you help. me get what I want? And and and that's. that's the story that you have to tell.

What kind of example can you give me to. really make that make me understand that. in a real practical sense? Is there a. brand you've seen do this really well? Is there an example of a. I I mean, I I my brain went to Nike for. some reason. Yeah, yeah, well well, that's. Nike's a really interesting example. So. So obviously one of the things that Nike. has done recently is it's. um. done that ad campaign around Colin. Kaepernick, which is controversial, but. did them I think I think they sold them. up like 6% like after that that ad.

campaign. And that's a really good example of. an organization who is. um. behaving as a light figure. So that. Colin Kaepernick ad campaign has nothing. to do with shoes. There's you know, what. they're not doing is going, our shoes. will make you run 8% faster. We've got. these sprung soles. We've got these. amazing laces that won't trip you up or. whatever. You know, that they're. stats-less. It's not in there. It's. purely they're telling a story. They've. figured out that their client base are.

mostly believing certain you know, this. set of beliefs around the world. And and those those are goals, you know, people who you know, that the target. audience that they're. they're appealing to want to achieve. this kind of racial social justice and. that's important to them. So So what. Nike are basically saying is. you know, we are light figures in this. story. We you know, we we are we we are. on the side of the Colin Kaepernicks, of. the people who are kneeling. You know, we believe that black lives matter.

And and so they're presenting as a light. figure. And And if you think about it. rationally, it's kind of crazy. Like why. would a shoe company have this political. thing? But it's because of the. storytelling, because because they're. presenting as a light figure who who is. engaged in the kind of. you know, this particular mission the. world. And you know, in in order to kind. of to to to to to kind of join the. mission, you you buy the Nike shoes. And And it. worked. You know, it works really well. I mean, one of the archetypal examples.

that that I talk about that I love is. there was an. an ad that was broadcast, I think it was. in the 60s by Volkswagen. And it was the. first kind of modern ad advert. It was. the first It was the first advert that. you would look at and recognize as. the kind of advertising that we do. today. So before this Volkswagen ad, you know, all ads were just stats-lists. Here's this amazing, you know, tire and. you know, this will get you naught to 60. in whatever. Um and then this Volkswagen.

did this amazing ad where it just it was. black and white cuz it was still in the. days of black and white. And they had. it just showed this guy. It was all. snowing, it's a big blizzard outside. And this guy gets in his car. He turns. it's like it's like, you know, just. before dawn. Turns on his ignition, drives his car through the blizzard. blizzard blizzard blizzard. Opens his. huge shed doors and then you hear this. big engine start up and out drives his. snowplow. And it's how does the guy who. drives the snowplow get to the snowplow? And it's just Volkswagen. And that's a.

really simple, really effective story. And it's showing Volkswagen as this. light figure. We are helping the hero. achieve what he wants. And you know, I. don't believe that the Volkswagen was. particularly good at driving through. blizzards. I don't believe that. And they certainly weren't making any. factual claim in the sense that we are. better than Land Rover and whatever. whatever whatever doing this because of. this stat. It was as simple as that. And. it revolutionized marketing. It changed. everything because they'd figured out. that kind of light figure form of. storytelling. And in that are they.

saying that the Volkswagen Volkswagen. enables you to be the hero? That means. the story is about. And Nike is saying that the Nike shoe. associated it Kaepernick enables you to. be the social activist hero. Hero, exactly. Yeah. Kaepernick was. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Fascinating. I'm just going to change a. few things about my. few of my companies, I think, based on. that. Yeah, I think I think we I think. in the course of business we all forget.

that emotion is the most important. thing. I'm thinking about all the. newsletters that my companies have been. writing. I've got various companies and. the newsletters they write and the. videos we make and how. and how sometimes we. we think that facts and figures and. information is what the viewer is. looking for in their lives, but the most. compelling way to draw them in to. whatever we're doing, whether it's a. newsletter or a tweet or whatever, is by. putting emotion first and and really. thinking about what the emotion of the. the content is. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And. with the with the Nike example, I mean,

we we live in uh since the global. financial crisis, we live in heightened. political times. And so so, you know, and and people are always tribal. And and And so, you know, one of the big. things that that that that successful. kind of persuaders do is is to make. those tribal appeals. Um and, you know, sometimes it works with Colin. Kaepernick, like with the Gillette razor. campaign, it didn't work because you're. kind of essentially attacking your. target audience. Um uh so that was, you. know, less successful. Um I think there. was a terrible Pepsi ad with Kendall.

Jenner. about that. Where where where where where they were. kind of basically Yeah, where where. where it was just making this. Well, it put a a super rich uh beautiful. model, white woman, as the uh the hero. against social injustice. And drinking a sugary drink is going to. help Yeah, you know, so. It's just all off, isn't it? Yeah. So so, I think organizations are. sensing that. partly how we can be a light figure. these days is by is by is by presenting. as people who are assisting in these.

the the these political goals that have. become very important to people, especially young people. Um and some people are getting it right, some people are getting it wrong. There's a real science to it though, isn't there? Yeah. The more we've spoken, I've realized how. how there is a a science to it when you. understand the the roles and also the. audience, the roles of the characters in. your content or your piece, and also. where the it's really about where the. audience sees themselves, as you say. Yeah. And how they feel represented. As. you probably know, Vodafone are one of. our amazing sponsors on this podcast. If.

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philosophy of change. The V-Hub has. completely free resources, tips, insights, and expert one-on-one V-Hub. digital advisors to chat with you so you. can stay at the very forefront of. change. Search V-Hub by Vodafone now. Your 2021 book, The Status Game. This is. the book that when I was reading through. all of my notes, I have by far the most. amount of notes on. because I maybe it's just, you know, the. way I'm compelled to whatever, but it. was really really fascinating and very. felt very relevant. Status as a topic.

Why why does status matter? And what is. status for people that don't understand. the word? Okay. So so so it matters. massively. And and I and the reason I. wanted to write that book is because. people just don't really talk about it. very much. Even though our lives are full of status. pursuit, people just don't talk about it. very much. Status or status, I wish I knew. Well, Americans say status, Brits tend to say. status, but I guess it's both. Yeah, it's it's both. Um. so so so I I think one of the one of the.

one of the one of the kind of reasons. people kind of tend to not like this. subject is that when I when I've sort of. made the argument that we're all. motivated by status pursuit, they kind. of they think I'm saying we all want to. be rich, we all want to be famous. And. that's not what I'm saying at all. What. what I'm saying is that we all want to. feel of value. So we evolved as as. these, you know, tribal animals, and to. be successful in the tribe means two. things. You've got to be good at. connecting with other people. So so. being accepted and.

and fomenting a sense of belongingness. with other people. So that's. belongingness, that's connection, that's. not status, that's something else. But once we're in a group, in a tribe, we want to rise within it. We want to. feel that we are of value to other. people. And so back in the days when our. brains were evolving in the in you know, when we were living in the in the. tribes, um. the more status that you earned, uh. the more and better food you'd get, the. safer your sleeping sites, the safer. your children would be, the greater your. access to your choice of mates. So I.

mean as we all know, survival and. reproduction are the basic most. fundamental um. drives we have as living things, and. status, when you rise in status, your. chances of survival and reproduction. just go up and up and up and up. So when. you're in the tribes, the most you know, people would try and get status in the. tribes. Um and and the more more status. you got, the better everything else. became. And so that was true 10,000. years ago, it's true today. That is.

still true today. The more status that. you earn, the better everything else. gets. So it's this huge um. huge component of human behavior, but. it's subconscious. So we don't like to. think about it sometimes. We like to. deny it even though we. all love to feel of value and we are all. very very sensitive to any indication. that we that somebody considers us to be. of lesser value. You know, you said at. the start of that that when you. introduced this topic, people will have.

kind of an allergic reaction because. they're think they think you mean, and. it goes back to what we were saying. about your audience receiving that. message in a bad way because of where it. frames them. It frames them as being. kind of narcissistic and self and. selfish and, you know, and those are no. nobody wants to admit that they they are. selfish or they are, you know, they're. concerned with status. They don't want. to admit it. It's true. But nobody wants to say I'll say it. It's just the way that we are. But and then you you went on to say. that, you know, people don't like to.

admit they want to be famous, but I tend. to believe that a lot of people do want. to be famous. And in that book you talk. about children in particular when. they're asked what they want to be when. they're older. It's quite pretty alarming, right? Yeah. And that and that's I mean that's that's. again an indicator of the rise in. individualism. that that's the the the more and more. kids in the West since the '70s have. been saying that we want to be rich, we. want to be famous. But there are all. kinds of status games that we can play, and I think I think the I I think the. one of the important things to. understand about status games is is is.

that the brain is so obsessed with. status, it it assigns kind of status. points to. anything. So for so so for some people, for lots of people, the accrual of. money, that's their status game. That's. how they're measuring their status, how. much money I've got. But for other. people, for in it can be. how simply I live, you know, I know someone who um he's a lovely guy, but he considers himself to be sort of. not materialistic, and he's a very much. in the wellness space.

And he um. tell you know, he was telling me. last year that he's, you know, he takes. his kids to their private school. But at. the school gates, you know, he's got. this beaten-up old car that he's had. since he was a student, and he's got. masking tape around the. the the the the wing mirror, and he was. sort of talking, "Oh, you know, all the. other parents have got these big. Mercedes and Audis and BMWs, but I've. just got this thing." Um and and I think. he he he was trying to express the fact. that he just didn't care. He just didn't. care about his. his status. But for me, he he did care.

That car was every bit as much of a. status symbol for him as the, you know, the brand new Mercedes um four-wheel. drives were for the other parents. It's. just that he was playing a different. status game. In his game, having a crap car is is a high status. thing. The same as the aristocracy in. Britain. So, you know, if you if you. remember the British aristocracy, you'll. look down your nose at people who have a. brand new Japanese Lexus or whatever. They drive up beaten-up Land Rovers. And.

so so so so it all depends what game. you're playing. Different different. games um use different things to. symbolize status. And and and so so that. so that's how that game works. Lots of. people play the fame game. Lots of. people play the money game. Um other. people don't. You know, if you if you. were if you were hanging around with. Gandhi in India, you wouldn't be playing. the the money game. You you you you you. you would have got more status for. living the more simply your life became, the more status in that group you would. earn. It's so true. I've played all.

those games in my life and still playing. many of them. I'm not here to lie, so that's that's. just what it is. Um and I I think really. interestingly on that as well is um one. of the status games I was playing when I. was a little bit Well, I say insecure, but clearly I'm still insecure if if I'm. still playing status games status games. now. Um was how much designer stuff can. I buy and. champagne can I buy in nightclubs. I. played that game between 18 and 24. And. then when I actually got money, when I. actually was successful, I actually saw.

Louis Vuitton as a. lower status thing. So I just started. wearing all black and got rid of all of. my designer stuff. because I now think that it's different. game. Yeah. game I'm playing now. And so I don't now. I have an allergic reaction to anything. designer because to me. Yeah, it's weird. I think it's low. status. I think in my head it's low. status. true. And and in the book I write about. this the this hilarious study where they. figured out because in in the in the. luxury goods game, the bigger the logo, the lower the status. And they figured.

out that that that I forget the exact. measurements, but a certain amount of. um logo space, um. you know, like. half an inch, um, smaller meant, you. know, $500 more on the on the price. And. the most expensive designer stuff has a. logo on the inside. There's no logo on. the outside. And so as I and what that. kind of speaks to is that again. the whole world isn't one status game. There are kind of almost infinite status. games. And people we're not particularly. we're not that interested in what people. outside our games think of think of us.

It's much more about what people who. play in the games with us think of us. And so, you know, in in my wife is the. former editor of Elle magazine. So you. know, so I you know, that fashion luxury. world. Um, you know, people signal to each other. I. will see a handbag and it will just be. invisible to me what that handbag means, what the meaning of that handbag is. But. the person the owner of that handbag. won't give a first what I think. about their handbag. They're interested. in what what what you know, that woman. over there who knows about that handbag. knows. And they'll know by the quality.

of the stitching, by a tiny little. detail on the corner of that bag that. that is a really good bag. And that's. what matters cuz that's that's the game. They're playing a game with that person. They're not playing the game with me, so. they don't care what I think. It's so. you know, I have this very unproven, um, thought that just came to mind when you. were saying about the size of the logo, that when you're at the very when it. comes to luxury goods, at the very. bottom of the status uh. ladder, you want the biggest. logo possible. Yes. You want it you want it all over. the car.

And if you think about something like, you know, people, you know, where they. are in that in that status thing, they. will have they will wear a tracksuit. of that logo. And then as you rise. financially or in status, you the logos. you say get smaller and then it. disappears. So if you look at. billionaires, they're not wearing Jeff. Bezos is not wearing a Louis Vuitton. tracksuit. Amazon basic, yeah. It's all plain. With the billionaires, it's all very plain. They they have the yacht. They're. playing that game. Yeah. Yeah, they do. How many feet is.

the yacht? But super interesting. Makes me wonder. do do we actually really care about. these things? Do we actually really, um, we I I spend we spend our lives. telling ourselves that we want that. Birkin bag. We we we really genuinely. love the Lamborghini. But do we do we. actually like the Lamborghini or we just. do we just just like what it's signaling. about us? Well, I don't want to over I. don't want to over, um, kind of. I must over promise the story. Like like.

I think there's a danger where you can. say, well, a Lamborghini is 100% status. There's nothing else. I I think that's. that's not quite fair on Lamborghini. They're amazing machines. And I've never. driven a Lamborghini, but I'm sure it's. a fantastic experience. You know, I. you know, I've driven sports cars a. couple of times and it's been amazing. So so it's not just status. Like it is. it's incredible to have a Leica camera. that take amazing photographs. So so so. you are you are getting something extra. for your money, but it's but but but. mostly I think what you're getting is is. status. That that's really mostly what.

you're getting. And it's worth it. I. mean, I don't want to fall into that trap of. being condescending to status. It is a. fundamental human need that we feel our. value. And, you know, if we're playing a. high level status game with lots of. Lamborghini owners, it's really really. hard to feel a value in that group. So. you've got to work really hard. So that's why a brand new Lamborghini. for somebody playing that game will feel. as good as a. you know, as a dirt bike to somebody playing, you know, a game over there. Like one.

might cost multiples more than the. other, but it will feel just as good. because they're worried about they're. only really concerned about what the. other people in there. their game are thinking. So so so so. yeah, we we do care. And it's it's a. good thing because it's. that, you know, the book. does talk a lot about the negatives of. status pursuits, but it also talks a lot. about the positives of status pursuits. I mean, civilization, technology. that that's what you get, um, when. people want to pursue status. When when.

somebody wants to become the best. technologist, the best vaccine designer, the best, um, you know, the best charity. We want to. save the most lives. That's humans at. their best. And that's also status. pursuit. But it's good. It's positive. What is the toxic downside of being. addicted to status though? And and and. my sub question to that is that is. insecurity and sort of. a lack of self-worth a. predictor of being addicted to status.

games? Being human is a predictor of being. addicted to status games. We're all. addicted to status games. And Do you not. think people that were bullied and that. didn't and that were that were that were. low status in childhood in some context. are those that then seek status most as. adults? Um, maybe, but again I again I I. do think that personality comes a lot. into play. Um, like anything, some people are more. interested in status than other people. Like Elon Musk. is obviously incredibly interested in.

his own relative status and that's a big. driver for him. Um, Jeff Bezos, you know, Beyoncé, you. know, these people, um, are are very highly attuned to the. status game and that's what pushes them. pushes them pushes them to work harder. than I will ever work. Um, so I don't I don't necessarily think. it's about, um, low self-worth. It might. it's probably to do with, um, genetic. things like. extraversion, agreeableness, which is a. personality, um,

component. If you're low in. agreeableness, you're competitive. It's. that kind of type A personality. So. so there's definitely a genetic. component to it. Definitely. But there's. also, you know, class comes into it. People on the lower socioeconomic groups. have much less access to status games. So. so you know, I think that's why. you know, if you're a working if you're. if you're if you're a poor guy raised in. a housing estate in Stockwell and you're. only the only available status games to.

you are. Tesco's bakery. and this gang over here, I know what I'm. joining. You know, it's changed the way. that I see. some of those issues that you know, we. are we are programmed to. we are programmed to crave connection. and status and we will find connection. and status. wherever we can. And so I I so I I think. that explains. you know, when people are running gangs, it's not cuz they're naughty. It's not. cuz they're bad people. It's because. they're just doing what they're designed. to do when they're in an environment.

where there aren't many status games to. play. There's just not a lot of options. It's interesting because when I I think. I think of some of my friends that I. that I believe in my own, you know, ill-informed observation are addicted to. status the ones that are really addicted. to status, the ones that are really. pursuing it. are actually pursuing it at the cost of. connection. Mhm. And and what I mean by that is my my. richest most successful friend that I. have that lives in a massive mansion in. the middle of nowhere because that's the. place they could buy the biggest house.

and has all the sports cars is is also. the loneliest. Yeah, that's that's a. really good observation. I mean, status. and connection, they're separate things. So. we crave by, you know, nature both of. them. You know, people are tend to be happier when. they're more connected. But status is a. separate thing. And I think that's. right. I think that's absolutely. correct. Some people's that people's. dials are set. I I consider myself. somebody who is relatively high in need. for status, which is why I ended up. writing books for a living. But I'm. relatively low in need for connection. I.

don't really have much of a social life. I don't really want one. You know, I'm. not bothered particularly. Um, so so you. know, everybody's dials are set in. different ways. Some people have. relatively low need for status and. they're relatively high. need for connection and they're. surrounded by friends and they're. probably happier than I am. I'm sure. they're happier than I am. Is there. instances where we can be too consumed. with status and that can cause us to. have, um, adverse personal consequences? Um, yeah, I suppose.

Okay, so in the book I write that there. are kind of three general types of. status games that we can play. First game is a dominance game. And so. the dominance game we share with. animals. We've been playing dominance. games for millions of years and they are. what they sound like they are. They're. about aggression, but also the threat of. aggression, bullying, you know, that kind of thing. Whenever we force somebody else to. attend to us in status, that's. dominance. They're success games, which is I think. the best of human nature, competence. So when you're when you're.

when you're thinking about how do we. become a valued member of our tribe? Back in the days when our brains were. evolving, we could be the best honey. finder, the best storyteller, the best. hunter, best finder of tubers. So that's. how you're a value to your tribe, competence, for being good at something. There's also virtue. You know, we we can play virtue games. And so in the tribe, that means that you. know the rules of the tribe, you enforce. the rules of the tribe, you know the. rituals, you believe in the spiritual. stories. Um, so virtue isn't just about.

being selfless and kind and loving to. the your tribe members, but it's also. about being an enforcer. And I think, you know, there's no such. thing as a pure game. That's the other. thing to kind of point out. Like you can. you can see, um, a boxing match as a dominance game. It's. pretty clearly a dominance game. But. it's also got a virtue element to it. There's some rules in boxing. You can't. go and just go and kick them in the. groin. You know, like there has to be. some virtue in there too. So you call. that a dominance virtue game. And I. think the I think the worst games I I. think the the games that are most.

destructive are what I call virtue. dominance games. So a virtue dominance. game is one in which I I'm raising. status by enforcing rule by following. rules and knowing the moral the moral. rules. The dominance, uh, component is I'm going to force you. to do it. So so you know, that's what. you see on social media a lot. Those cancel culture mobs, people. attacking each other for believing the. wrong things. That's a virtue dominance. game. At their very worst, a virtue dominance. game, you know, in the the I write about.

the rise of the Nazis. I write about the. find the final chapter which kind of. brings the whole thing together. is that the story of the rise of the. communist in the Soviet Union from the. perspective of status and you know, that. that's also a virtue dominance game. They're not interested in competence in. in success. They're interested in you're. going to believe this and if you don't, we're going to punish you. Yeah, that's a lot of that going on at. the moment. There's a lot of that going on at the. moment and I and I think a lot of it is. because. you know, to try and try and be kind of.

open-hearted about it. I wrote about. this in selfie and and I wrote in the. status game is that since the global. financial crisis, life has got harder. especially for young people. Success get. you know, like it's hard to get on the. property ladder. People are leaving. university with student debt. There's. massive underemployment for graduates. We've got what they call elite. overproduction. We're producing too many. smart educated people for the roles to. fit in. It's it's. you know, we're now entering a new recession. apparently. So so.

life is much harder for millennials and. gen zeds than it was for boomers and gen. x's. So success games are harder to. play. So what you I think what you're. seeing is online people people get. status wherever they can. So they they. start playing virtue games instead. One of the alarming things you talk. about in this book is that. status. Did I say that right? Yeah. Yeah, that's the English way I need to. do it because I've got your accent. And that will harm my status. Exactly in the comments.

Um this idea that status games actually. have an impact on our health and. mortality that we will die younger. if we have lower status. What evidence. have you have you got have you. got or found to support this idea? Well, there's lots of evidence. There's a big. a lot of it comes from this guy called. Dr. Michael Marmot who is just did this. incredible set of work which he calls. the Whitehall studies. So obviously. Whitehall is the bureaucracy that kind. of runs that kind of takes the order you. know,

the the civil service that kind of works. with the government. So it's an enormous. organization that's highly stratified. And so Marmot. looked at kind of health outcomes for. people on different levels of that kind. of hierarchy that status game and found. that. the lower you went down that status. game, the worst health outcomes became. So the obvious thing is that's just. because if you're being paid less, you. maybe can't afford the personal trainer, you know, you're eating worse. But it. wasn't that that wasn't the case at all. They actually one rung down below top.

So still a very very wealthy successful. high status people had worse health. outcomes than the person at the very. top. So so so it really did seem like. the brain is highly attuned to where we. sit in a pecking order and the lower the. lower we are down in that pecking order, the more unhealthy we became. Another set of scientists looked at this. in the in the laboratory. So they took a bunch of monkeys who. obviously like us very hierarchical that. status games.

And they deliberately fed this is a. terrible experiment. It's very. pretty awful. But they deliberately fed. them a terrible diet of like fast food. like chocolate and crisps. So they so so. they ended up having a high level of. atherosclerotic plaque which is you. know, so that they were getting clogged. up basically and vulnerable to. heart problems and so on. And they found that it was the same that. the lower you went down the monkey. pecking order. the more likely the monkeys were to die. of these heart related diseases because. of their bad diets than the ones at the. top. And then importantly, they.

conspired to change the hierarchy of the. group. I don't know how they did it, but. they changed them maybe they took out. the top monkey. But they changed the. hierarchy of the group and. they found that the health outcomes. changed in lockstep with the change in. hierarchy. So if a monkey went up, they. became less likely to die. And so then. you might ask what this is crazy. Like. why is this? And so the closest answer. that scientists have come is a whole. field called social genomics. It's a new. field. And social genomics is all about.

how does our social world affect the. function of our genes? So you know, we're social animals. Our brains are. constantly monitoring how we're doing in. the world. What are our levels of. connection? What are our levels of. status? We have this status detection. system that's constantly monitoring our. level of status. And so the idea is that when the brain. registers that we. are you know, dropping in status and. we're not too high in status it prepares. our cells. It changes the way our. genes work and our and the actions of.

our cells change in such a way. that kind of prepares us for kind of. trouble. So inflammation goes up, antiviral. response goes down. So so the body. changes in such way that we become more. ill. There's a really. um. a narrative in there which some might. deduce from hearing all of that which is. that your level of success relates to. your. health. And this I'm going to say it in. a really gruesome way which is the more.

successful you are. um. the longer. you'll live. Obviously there's loads of factors in. play. If you're eating burgers and smoking and. doing class A drugs, that's going to. probably be a stronger sort of. determinant in your outcomes, but. but generally speaking if two people are. eating the exact same thing, if they're. living the exact same lifestyle in terms. of what they're consuming and the way. that they're living and the only. variable is their. level of success in a status game. Yeah.

Then they will be They're less likely to. die if they're higher up. That's true. Yeah. Quite quite alarming, isn't As you. said, there's so many confounds. I mean. life is much more complicated than that. There's there's always you know, it is. true that people. smoke and don't smoke and and so on. But. but but but you know, what Marmot finds. is that is that if you take two smokers, the one higher up is is less likely to. die of a smoking related disease than. the than the one lower down. In the. status. In the status game ladder or whatever. Interesting. Yeah. And one of the other things that I. wrote down reading that book was workers.

at the bottom of the office hierarchy. have at ages 40 to 64 four times the. risk of death of their I guess. administrators means managers Yeah. at the top of the hierarchy. Yeah. That's from the Whitehall studies. Yeah, that's part of what Dr. Marmot. found. Yeah, it's crazy. So so they're really. significant. It's not marginal. They're. you know, when you when you. it will be marginal from one layer to. the next, but when you actually look at. the whole game, it's very significant. the the differences the health outcomes. from the top and bottom. It's absolutely.

mental. I've never really considered. that idea before that. status is playing such a significant. role in my biological situation. Um The same is true for connection. So. when we're lonely, the same thing. happens. The lonelier we are, when we. lack status, the same thing. we know, we we have. inflammation goes up, antiviral response. goes down which is bad for us in the. long term. And it's the same with the. social genomics people say it's the same. with loneliness which is why loneliness. is bad for our health too.

The other thing that was I found. particularly interesting was that when. we lose our status, the consequences of. that can be pretty morbid and that. suicide is often the result of people. losing status and the speed in which. they lose their status. Yeah. Yeah. So so this is why I never. believed the Jeffrey Epstein conspiracy. theories. I think he did kill himself. because he just had this huge. drop in status. It just makes him. incredibly vulnerable to. suicidal. thought and ideation. So so yes, it's. not just drops in status. It's.

especially sudden drops in status makes. us very vulnerable. And also I found it was interesting the. research says it's it's also being left. behind. So if we if we stay still and. everybody else is every everybody around. us accelerates, that that also makes us. vulnerable to. potentially you know, anxiety, depression and potentially suicidal. ideation. That in particular is quite. an alarming thought that if you're in a. group of five friends. best friends. and four of the best friends do really. really well professionally in in their.

careers, whatever. just because of the context in which. you're existing, you might become. depressed because your four friends did. well. And this this in some respects. might explain jealousy. Of course it does. Yeah, I mean I mean. that's I mean you know, we we've evolved to. um. want to feel of value, but unfortunately. being of value is kind of relative. Like. if everybody is equally valued, then. nobody's valued. Do you know what I.

mean? We're all on the same level. So. it's. I think that's where it can become quite. damaging. and that's where life can become quite. exhausting especially in this kind of. highly competitive neoliberal world that. we live in where everybody's pushing. pushing pushing to succeed pushing to. succeed. You know, it's true. You know, I hate. we hate it when our friends become. successful parts of us. always going to because it kind of. devalues what you know, what we have. You know, it's just. an unfortunate.

byproduct of the of the status game. You talk about how we look up to people. who are like us. Yeah. But we also seem. to be more jealous of people that are. like us. Yeah. Because they because they. are the the clearest evidence of our own. inadequacy. Yeah, it's that was a really. sort of. kind of. naughty para paradox for me to get my. head around when I was writing the book. And the closest solution I could come to. it was so when you look at.

the. how how human social groups work there's. a really amazing researcher in America. called Joseph Henrich who studies this. stuff and has written about a couple of. books about this. And he talks about how how we learn. And. so in those again those groups in which. we evolved which we sort of look to to. figure out why we. are like we are. What you'll find is. that is is that is that when you were. growing up, you know, young people look. they identify high status people from. which to learn. And those high status.

people um are going to be like them in. some way. They're probably going to be. the same gender, and they're going to. have the same kind of interests and you. know, that kind of thing. And and so. that so this mechanism switches on, which is copy, flatter, conform. So, you. start copying their behavior because the. brain goes, "Well, this person's high. status. I want to become high status.". Um so so if I want to become high. status, of course I've got to do. everything they're doing. So, if I do. everything that they're doing, I'll you. know, it'll work. So, it switches on. So, and then we've got the flatter. process, which is.

I I need access to this person. I want. to be around this person to be able to. learn everything that they're doing. And. you do that with you know, flattery is a. good way of doing that. It's like um you. know, "Oh, you're amazing. I love this. What a great book. What a great podcast. You're amazing businesses." And then you. know, so so we'll let people in who. treat us that way. And conform, you you. do what you do what you do what you're. told. You you behave. And so and so and. so. you know, you can see you can you can. think about that when you think about. celebrities. You know, like I I. remember when I was.

seven or eight years old, I was obsessed. with this guy called this guy Nick. Kershaw. And I remember seeing him on TV. AM and he was crossing his legs in a. certain way with his. ankle on his knee and his leg sticking. out. And I just found myself sitting at. school in the same way as Nick Kershaw. You know, so so so like that my copy my. copy, flatter, conform mechanism had. switched on. That's interesting. I I I I think that's how I I think. that's how kind of fame works. I I think. it's that we we we we see people who. feel like a piece of us, but a highly. successful piece of us. Like that.

person's like me, but amazing. And so so. this very ancient evolved mechanism. switches on, even though we're probably. never going to meet that person. They. just switch on and we become and so you. you know, you'll notice that um. people read the same books as their. idols. They dress the same way as their. idols. They might even you know, I find. I mean, I'm embarrassed about it, but I. think it's probably very common. When I. when I've watched a stand-up. comedy special and I've loved it, I'll. find myself talking like that comic the. next day and like using their. inflections a bit. Um it's just kind of.

weird, you know, or laughing like them, you know. So so generally speaking, we're quite envious creatures. We don't. like high status people. And but there's. a very narrow class of people that we. identify with. And those are the people. that feel like super successful versions. of us. Like we we we relate to them, we. identify with them. And and that's when. that. very evolved ancient mechanism switches. on, which I call in the book copy, flatter, conform. Yeah, it's so interesting. Much of what. you've described as well as explains. influence marketing and why it's so.

effective. Why we why, you know, if some if you look up to someone, they. can sell you anything. Absolutely. Yeah. that's what the whole industry is based. on. Um the other the other point that. you talk about in the book around the. role that status is playing, which. really alarmed me and and made me ponder. quite a lot, was about how s- our. pursuit for status is more important. than our pursuit for money when we've. kind of addressed the money topic. And. how, you know, many employees would. would rather accept a higher status job. than a pay rise. Yeah, different job. title. Yeah.

That's That's pretty alarming. Yeah, it's it's Well, it it is, but it's not. that surprising when you think about the. evolution of the brain. We haven't. evolved to crave money cuz money hasn't. been around long enough. We've evolved to crave status, and. money's just one way that we can measure. status. But there are loads of other. ways we can measure status. So so so it. doesn't you know, it doesn't have to be. money-based, you know. So and as you. said, there there was a quite a major. study. I think it was 15,000. people in the UK that they surveyed and. found that most would accept a diff- a. high status job title over a.

modest pay rise. Yeah. So, instead of, you know, I've got Jack sat over there. He's the. producer director of this podcast. So, Jack, what's your job title right now? Um. I'd have to say director / producer. Okay. So, if I change Jack's job title. to. CEO of the podcast, Yeah. versus giving him a 1,000 pound pay. rise, he'd probably take the CEO of the. podcast. He He's Yeah. Yeah. He's just a.

director. But he's also a smart thinking because. because you know, when we're judging other people's. status, it isn't just how much money. they have. In fact, We never. the money's often invisible. The the. title says a lot. So, if you were to, you know, make Jack's, you know, he's my. podcast CEO, he's more likely then to go. on and get a better job somewhere else, higher status, more money because of. that bump in status. So, it's actually. the instinct is correct. It's a smart to. move to take the. So, I could reduce his salary by half by. giving.

No, I think that. That's the thing. I I think we're so. sensitive to. reductions in status that it's that will. never fly. That's interesting. Um you talk about the cues as well. within status games that we we kind of. look for. What are those four cues? Yeah, this is this is again Joseph. Henrich's work where he looks at um. the the you know, how do we identify the. people that we want to copy, flatter, conform? Um so there there there are. various cues. Um one of them is um.

uh with they they call them success. cues. So so in um. the hunter-gatherer tribe, it might be a. hunter has a big necklace of teeth, one. tooth for every creature that he's. killed. Um you know, so so so so so. that's why we have jewelry these days. cuz it's it's a success cue. And it it's. amazing when you read about the detail. because the you know, the brain is is. some neuroscientist call it a. all of the time um monitoring our. environment for for for status cues and.

you know, playing that game. And and so. so we're constantly monitoring other. people's body language. Um we we can measure someone's relative. status versus uh you know, submissive. versus dominant in 43 milliseconds. That's how quick when we see somebody we. we measure how. dominant or submissive they are in in. terms of status. So so that's how quick. it is. So so so we're looking at things. like um successful interruptions in. conversation. The more successful. interruptions you make, the higher.

status you are. Like we've all been in. situations, maybe you not for a while, where you're trying to get a word in. edgewise and everyone's just. everyone's just like maybe in a family. situation and you just think, "Oh, it." I sit with Mogan on the podcast so. I can't get a word in edgewise. with him. But that's But that's that's. actually a a perfectly valid point. He. sees himself as higher status than you. Yeah. And so he and so and and so both. of your. games subconsciously were playing a. status game. And so so so we are um we. we so so that's another way. We're also. measuring another cue is how other.

people are are attending to that person. So, if we notice lots of people are. attending to a person, we will. automatically assume they're worth. attending to. And so what's interesting. um Joseph Henrich writes is is that is. that these effects were designed to work. in small groups of people because that's. how we we evolved in very small tribes. They weren't. evolved to um. operate in in a global environment. modern media and the internet. So, you. get these feedback loops where lots of. people are looking at one person, so.

more and more people start looking at. that person, then they get reported in. the press, and then more people start. looking at them. And they call it the. Paris Hilton effect cuz I think when. they figured out what was going on, Paris Hilton was the big why is she. famous person? But you might as well. just call it the Kardashian effect or. whoever the latest person is that. ev- that that that happens to be really. famous and then no one can quite work. out why. It's because. it's a feedback loop. Once you. lots of people start looking at that one. person, everyone just piles in and cuz. the brain's are assuming they must be. high status. They must be worth.

attending to if everyone's attending to. them. People attend to them and then, you know, you've also talked about how. their their health outcomes would be. better potentially as well. So, shouldn't. cues go up. cues go up, you know. It sounds like a. wonderful life to live. So, should we all start pursuing. status? Well, no. We Well, we again, I'd say we. all we all we already are, but but I. think you know, another way that all. this research has made me understand the. world a lot better is that when we look.

at very high status people, really rich, wealthy, successful people, half our brain is just jealous. It goes, "Oh, lucky them." And we imagine they. have this brilliant life and they're so. happy and everything's wonderful. But. with the other half of our brains, we. know that's not true because when you. meet very rich and successful people, they're often not happy. Right? Yeah, exactly. There's suicide, there's alcoholism, there's workaholism. You know, they're like they're not. happy. Their marriages don't last. So so. it it made sense of that to me. It. And that's. And it's actually quite a nice. understanding that it that that that.

there isn't this this hierarchy of. happiness where the the richer you are, the happier you are because we're all. playing individual status games. So, you. know, that those people playing high. level status games, the millionaires, the billionaires, the Elon Musks, they're competing with the people. immediately around them. They're. competing like Elon Musk is competing. with Jeff Bezos and Tim Cook. So so. they're no happier than the people at. school who are competing to be the best. Well, I don't say no happier. That's the. general I mean, I don't know. But but.

but but but but but but you know, the. higher you go, the harder that game. becomes. So so so so you know, that's. taken away a lot of that I wish I was. this, I wish I was that. Yes, I'd love a. yacht. You know, but still, you know, I'm not naive anymore to how how. difficult and punishing that life can be. at the very top because you're not. competing with. me anymore or the people down there or, you know, or even above me. You're. competing with people. They're competing. with the people who who they're playing. against. And they're all highly. successful, highly motivated um.

incredible individuals. It it's it's. become really interesting, this whole um. space race. Yeah. Richard Branson, Jeff. Bezos, Elon Musk. You go, "Really? You. all really care about. Exactly. Exac- But the other thing to. say about that is, and this is again how. I've changed. I mean, I'm a lefty. I've. always been a lefty. But this book has. really opened my mind to the idea that. actually we do benefit from these. people. Not just in the obvious ways. They they. hire a lot of people. They give you. know, people get meaning and purpose. from their jobs. They people get to live.

a life and pay their mortgage from their. jobs. They pay taxes that keeps the you know, that keeps the countries running. So. they're they're. they're doing all that. But also with. the space race, they're competing. because they're playing a status game. That's obvious. But but science and. technology benefits from that too. I. mean they I mean I don't you know, they. they will no doubt be a number of. innovations that that that are hugely. useful to humanity that come as a result. of. this. you know, this space race or races like.

it amongst these highly motivated. top level players. Chapter 29 of this book you you kind of. you talk about how we can. advance in the status game. Status game, factor again. And the seven rules of the status game. How how do we advance in the status. game? And what do you mean by advance? Do you mean win? No, cuz you can't win. I mean that's the. thing. I think the brains the brain has. this story that we live by where where. where and stories contain happy endings.

and happy ending is if I achieve this. and I'm going to be happy. And again, we. it's weird cuz we know that's not true. when we've lived a bit of life because. you know, but but we still kind of believe it. If. I get this if this next book sells a. hundred thousand, then I'll be happy. And it's like I know that's not true, but. so so so so you you don't ever win it. That's an illusion. That's the. storytelling brain, you know, just. giving you a bit of a lie to keep you. motivated. I I I think there are there. are various ways that you can succeed in.

the status game. You know, some kind of are quite. practical. I think I think one of the. most practical is that. is this amazing revelation that status. is more valuable than money to most. people. And it's free. Like we have status to. give. And You can save money as I've. just said. You can get. you can get call him a CEO and you can. get. pay him half. Unbelievable. I wish I'd known this earlier. But we can but but we you know, but but. but we so we have loads of opportunities. in our lives to give status to to to our. employees, to the people around us and.

we often don't. And you know, and so so. I think that. and that feeds back in a kind of. real politicky. kind of slightly cynical way. Is if we. are generous with status, people are. going to want to be around us and. they're going to want to work with us. and they and and and some of that status. will wash back. So so I think you know, don't treat status as if it's a limited. resource. In the business context, I. think there's a really it's not in that. final section, but one of the other sort. of light bulb moments for me in the. business context.

was this difference between. competition and rivalry. So when you first think about. competition and rivalry in business, you. think that's the same thing, but it's. not. So competition is bad. and rivalry is good. So. when I'm talking about competition, I'm. talking about a corporate structure like. Enron. So that's the example used in the. book. So Enron famously had their rank. and yank system where the top I think it. was 15% got promoted. I think they were. judged judged them at least twice a. year. Everybody in the company got.

judged. The top 15% got promoted, the. bottom got fired and the middle were. just terrified. So that's. competition. So so competition is is a. sense of all against all. You go into. work and it's a. war. And you've got to grab and you know, and. and I think that that's when you end up. with extremely toxic and ultimately. potentially corrupt corporate cultures. because status is very hard to come by. And. um. So that's what you want to avoid. And.

you know, it's thought that like a very moderate. amount of competition is quite good to. motivate people, but it very quickly. goes wrong. The alternative to that is rivalry. Now. rivalry is. is healthy and a massive motivator. And. rather than being all against all, rivalry is one against one. So that's. one individual against one individual or. one group, one team against another team. or one organization against another. organization. And rivalry is. characterized by. having the status competition that's. characterized by lots of near misses and.

skirmishes. So you can think about Apple. and Microsoft had had a period where. where where they were great rivals and. that rivalry kind of pushed them on. And. in the book I tell the story of the true. origin story of the iPhone, which is. quite amazing. And it begins when Steve. Jobs Steve Jobs' wife was friends with. somebody from Microsoft. And she would. have regular parties, barbecues. And so. this Microsoft executive, this unnamed. Microsoft executive would come to the. barbecue and be bragging to Steve Jobs.

And and one day he was bragging to Steve. Jobs saying, "We've solved computing. You know, it's. over for you guys. We've figured it out. We've got these tablets with these. styluses. They're going to change. everything." And then. the next day, the Monday, Steve Jobs. comes into work furious because his. rival Microsoft is is dragging their. faces in saying, "We've solved. computing." And he says, "Let's. let's show these pricks how it's. really done. It's not done with. styluses, it's done with fingers. That's. how it's done." And that became the.

iPad, which well that became the iPhone. Well. first it was the iPad, but they released. the iPhone and then it reemerged as the. iPad. And as Scott Forstall, who was the. guy that told that story, said it was. very bad for Microsoft that Steve Jobs. ever met that guy. But that's the true. origin story of the iPhone, this device. that's changed the world, is status and. rivalry. This guy from Microsoft rubbing. Steve Jobs' face in it at a barbecue. So. so that's healthy. That's good. Well, not good for Microsoft, but that's. that's what you want to be in a. corporate sense, in an organizational.

sense. You want to be you want to be. encouraging rivalry and not competition. Interesting. I've always tried to make sense of my my. love of rivalry. And I've always I've always wondered if. it was the toxic flaw in me or because. it seems to be such an unbelievable. motivator. I'm so I'm so I've always. said competitive, but now I'm hesitant. to say that word, but I'm I'm always. looking for a rival. Even you know, I. have 10 friends who are in a fitness. competition. And. every month we hand out these fake.

awards. There's gold, silver and bronze. Yeah. And. four days out I won gold last month and. then four days out from this month, my. friend, good friend of mine, he's. managing director of one of my. companies, Ollie Voncheff, he starts. talking. to me. And I was so happy he did because. I realized that in those last four days. of the month I was going to do I was. going to work out three hours four hours. a day to beat him. And it was and it's. almost I I reflected on what I saw in. Michael Jordan's documentary where. Michael Jordan would it would seem look. for rivalries. He would so much so that.

he would make them up. And when they. went and asked the other person if it. had happened, they'd go, "No, that. didn't happen." But Michael Jordan had. created a rivalry in his head to. motivate himself. There's actually a. clip on YouTube called It Became. Personal With For Me, which is just a. compilation of Michael Jordan repeatedly. saying a story that might have might not. have or might have happened and then. saying it became that's when it became. personal with me. And then it shows him. slam dunking on that person or winning. another title or whatever. This constant. search for rivalry as a as a motivator. That's fascinating. That's exactly.

right. Yeah, that's that's fascinating. And and so that that that description. you say of somebody who's highly. successful constantly looking for. rivalries, I think that's that that. that's correct. And and I also think. it's. it's a mistake to think. is it healthy or like is it toxic? Is it. a good thing or a bad thing? I think I. think. one of the things I try not to do in my. books is to categorize what's good and. what's bad. It just is. Because because. in real life reality, it's usually a. trade-off. Most things are trade-offs. And so yes, in lots of sense if you're. playing your success games,

it will be it's a good thing. It's it's. a massive motivator. It worked for Steve. Jobs, it worked for Michael Jordan. Sounds like it is for you. But it. doesn't mean it's a hundred percent good. thing. It if you start losing, that's. going to become. a source of a lot of misery for you. So. I think we often make mistakes when we. try to figure out whether something's. good or bad because I think the reality. is that most things are trade-offs. You're completely right. It is a. trade-off. And working out for three. four hours a day was not a good idea. Yeah. There was a significant cost to. that with my my relationship with my.

sleep, with you know, with my. productivity. So it is a trade-off. I. guess it all depends what your objective. your objective ultimately is. You've written um. a number of books now, many many books, more books than I I think I'll ever. write in my life because I I think I. struggle to to. to write books. And you know, you find. yourself in a place in life now where. you're is 40 Seven. 47. It was difficult. to find find your age online. I had to I had to go back to an article. I think where you said you were 38 and. do the math. So I wasn't sure if you're. 47. But um.

what else are you are you in search of. in your life personally? What else if I I I've asked this. question in maybe the last I don't know, 10 episodes to my guests, but if if if. your overall happiness was a a recipe. consisting of a set of ingredients, what. are you looking for personally now in. your life to fulfill that happiness. recipe? That's a very good question. So I I. think that one of the thing one of the. things I've done recently is I've. I've not started yet, but I've. I've.

it's going to be happening this month is. I'm going to start volunteering. to a charity because I feel like. as we've already spoken about, one of. the things I don't have is much. connection. Like I've got a great. marriage, but beyond outside the. marriage, I don't really see people that much. And. I feel like because I don't have. children, I don't actually do anything. for anyone else. So it's going to. I felt like I was becoming quite a. selfish life. Everything was just about. other my apart from my dogs who I.

I'm obsessed with. I don't do anything. for anything else. So so I I figured. that's that that's a bit of a hole in my. life. So that's why I'm I'm going to. start volunteering. If I've got to be interviewed by this. charity, but assuming that goes well. So. I think I I think that's a whole. And. And I do um I I do want to sort out the. connection side of things. Like I've. started having. semi-regular meetups with some old. school friends recently, which has just. been. an absolute joy to to see these people.

after, you know, so long. And I kind of. I kind of in my head start telling the. story that it was me that had failed all. my exams and was a total disaster. But. it was amazing to sit around the table. with all these lots of That's a lawyer. and you know, there's all these. successful people. We all failed our. exams. It was just a really bad school. But we all kind of succeeded um. regardless of that. Um so so so that's. been a that that that's that that's been. really fun. And we've had to kind of. um yeah, so so so so I think it's I. think it's moving the dial on.

connection. That That's what I'm. missing. We have to become more and more. intentional about that connection, I. think. I feel like men probably more so. Definitely, yeah. You know, and it's one. of the things I've said to my five. friends is I've said to them, you know, as we get older, when it's a birthday or. when there's a a wedding, make sure we. all go because it's going to become. increasingly There's going to become. increasingly more excuses as to as to. why we shouldn't go or we can't go. We live further apart. We have families. We. Yeah. And you really I feel like as a man you. really have to fight for that connection. as you age and so. Yeah, I mean I I I kind of I kind of.

really do believe that there are basic. biological differences between the. genders on average. You have to say. generally speaking. Even if there's huge. overlaps, of course. We're more alike. than we are different. But I think on. the average, I think, you know, uh men and women are, you know, that. there are differences. And I I do think. that one of them is how we manifest. socially. I think. you know, um women are much better. instinctively at. at the group. Yeah. You know, whether.

that's um. politically. or um. uh. in a friendship context, there just. there just there just seems to be a. men just seem to have have an instinct. for going it alone. Yeah. And women seem. to have an instinct for the group. Going it together. Yeah, going it. together. That's a lovely way of putting. it. Yeah. And um and and I and I think. that you're right. I think men. especially have to fight against that. I. think that's why the suicide statistics. are so much worse for for men. And And I. And as the suicide expert I spoke to for.

Selfie said, the solution isn't that men should be. you know, should be more like women. Um. because that's you can't change biology. But But But I think you're right. I. think. especially with the social connection, we have to. push ourselves a bit harder. And I. always notice with the social stuff, it. just seems to always happen where when. you've got a social appointment. coming up, you think, "Oh, what did I. say yes to that for?" But then that. that's like 100% of the time we think, "Oh, I don't want to go." But then when. you go, you go, "Oh, I'm having a great.

time. This is amazing. I should do this. more often." And that's also 100% of the. time. It's so weird that um we we seem. so. like men especially seem to be so bad at. predicting how much we're going to enjoy. social occasion. On that point with the suicide expert, you know, because much of the narrative. I do hear regarding male suicide is that. we we just need to talk more. And we're. often with that argument often comes. that this the subpoint that if you look. at how women are open and communicate. with their social circle, with their you. know, their their friends and they they.

say, "I'm feeling this. I'm going. through this. Blah blah blah blah." Men. don't do that. So men need to do more of. that. Yeah. What What did you learn from your. conversations with that suicide expert? Well, his view and mine, too, um. is that I don't think I. like Sure, talking helps. But But But. But. just saying to men you should be more. like women is not that helpful. And. actually what we need to do is figure. out what are men like. and um and.

um start trying to develop solutions. that are specifically designed for men. I just think saying to men, "You should. learn to cry.". I haven't cried for. years. You know, it's like it's it's. just not um. it's not fair on men. It's not smart. There needs to be more work done in how. can we actually help men in a. male-friendly way? You know, um. I I I. I think that's I think that's um. the way to go.

What are men like? What are men like? Cuz cuz you know, you. said we have to figure out what men are. like and then cater to cater to their. unmet needs. I'm guessing in a in a in a way that. kind of they can relate to. What is. that? Well, again, I think you've got to. be very careful by by by by not. generalizing. There's a huge variety in what men are. like, you know. But But But But But just to sort of. underline the fact we're talking sort of. generally speaking here, my sense is. that, as as I said before, women are.

much better in your great words at going. together. But But whereas men tend to be. more. tend to be more by instinct going alone. And And like everything, that's a. trade-off. Um And And the negatives are. um. uh that we are, you know, we are less. good at talking to other people and and. sharing our kind of burdens. I think. that. I mean, I've got no scientific evidence. to back this up, but my my impression is. that that that male identity. um.

often is focused more around success, personal success. So I think I think that's why you see. lots of male suicide in middle age. Cuz. in in middle age, men assault these in. their bodies. They state their careers. might grind to a halt. Their um. relationships with their children might. start going wrong. They might get. divorced. And divorce, you know, you. know, uh. yeah, it's not good. So so so I. And I think that that's where men um.

particularly might get into trouble. When when men feel like, "I'm not a. success. I'm not looking after my. family. I'm failing in my job." It's. that sense of being a failure. Um. I Yeah, I think I think that's very very. hard for men. The suicidal ideation you describe in. Selfie, was that linked to those. reasons? Yeah, I I think I think it's connection. and status for me. I mean, the the the. last time I had it having really badly. was when I moved back.

from I lived in Australia for 4 years. and did quite well in Australia as a. freelance journalist. But came back with. nothing. No job because I was a. freelancer. And so yeah, and then for a while I just thought I. was going to have to start doing day. shifts, you know, uh in magazines. Like. it was bad. I just felt like I'd. everything had gone wrong. And so. I think that was very much connected to. um. status. I mean, I'm very bad because in. the in the book I recommend.

um playing lots of games, playing. multiple games. The science is pretty. clear that. um the more status games people play in. their life, the more sources of status. they have, the more groups they belong. to, the more stable their personality, the happier they tend to be. And as I as. I said earlier on, I I just do I tend to. do writing. That's kind of what I do. That's partly the the selfish reasons. for the volunteering. I. I want to have another source of status. to protect myself against the inevitable. getting older.

thing. When we realize that status games are. like a comparative thing. So, um. you know, being a journalist, if there's a. journalist that's the editor and is. doing amazingly well, then and you're underneath. And then. there's somebody at the very bottom of. the the the ladder. Um the person at the. bottom of the ladder is going to be. lower status just by measure of. comparison. So does that mean that in. some regard, in the society we live in. that is based on status, there will. always be someone at the bottom that is. feeling that way. because just by a measure of comparison,

there's going to be someone else who is. making them feel inadequate or like low. status. Yeah, there's always going to be. a hierarchy. You can't remove the. hierarchy from the human It's how we. process reality. I mean, when you go. into any social situation, if you meet. If you If you're introduced to five. strangers, you know this. You know, like. you'll you'll have a conversation within. minutes, you'll start getting a sense of. who's up there, who's down there. And. it'll be. You know, your brain's just calculating. You can't stop it. It's going to happen.

And And And And you can't stop it. because everybody else is doing it to. you, too. You know, so you know, that. that's something other people give to us. as well is that is our sense of status. We sense it from other people. Um so so. so so so there will always be people, um. you know, at the bottom in inverted. commas. But there are a few things to. say about That sounds grim. But there. are a few things to say about that. The. first thing is that um. again, we all play individual little. games. So so so it isn't as though the. cleaner in the office feels like they're. competing with Michelle Obama. Cuz if. they did, they would just they'd just. throw themselves out the window. That's.

not how life works. That cleaner is. comparing themselves to the other people. in their life, who they work with, their. families, their cousins, they you know, so so so they're not feeling horrific. because they're not the King of. Thailand. So so that's that's not how. it's working. It's not Life isn't that. brutal. Two, we have amazing. imaginations. And And you know, we're. very good at buffing ourselves up and. finding ways of of of see you know, seeing our value. And I think in a in a in a healthy. organization, as I say in the book, you. can go to a meeting as the lowest status.

member of the organization in that. formal status game, make a fantastic. contribution, and leave feeling like the. king of the world, like the best person. in the room. And that And if that's a. healthy organization, that's how you'll. be made to feel, too. You'll be like, "Oh, that's brilliant. That's amazing.". So so so so even within those kind of. formal games that we play in life, we. can still have a encounter, an. experience in which we actually feel. hugely of value. Um. so so so so so there's also that to say. So And there's also, you know, life is a.

never-ending game. As long as we're not. suffering from depression, we're a. mentally healthy person, we're a little. bit optimistic, we're backing ourselves. a bit. You know, that's that's what. people are like. You know, I'm I feel. like I'm going to I have the capacity to. achieve X, Y, and Z. You know, so so so so so so yes, um there will always be people at the. bottom, but but A, they're probably not. going to stay there for very long cuz. the game's so fluid, and B, that that. that doesn't mean that they're condemned. to a life of constant misery and. torture. And and as you said earlier,

they can, you know, they might also play. for a Sunday league team and be top of. the league and captain of that team. Or. they could be religious. I mean, their. religion is a status game. And that's a. virtue game. It's a You know, and and it's often a healthy um virtue. game. You know, in a religious game, I've got to follow the 10 Commandments. and go to the church and or do whatever. I've got to do, and then I become a. high-status Christian or whatever. And. that's and that's you know, that's a big. journey I've gone on. I used to be very. angry and hostile about religion because. of my background, but but now I see that.

religion, although it's not for me, it's. hugely valuable to people um because it. gives them a status game to play. And meaning and purpose. And Exactly. I. was the same. I was religious up until I. was uh 18. Very religious household, and. I rejected it quite passionately for. many years until I stopped caring about. it. So, now I'm just like, do what you. like. I don't care. Yeah, exactly. Which. is a funny arc we kind of go through. where it's like. the aggression against it and then the. acceptance of it. Um. We have a closing tradition on this. podcast where where the previous guest. asks the next guest a question.

Okay. All right. In the diary diary. So, I get to read it now. Jack keeps the. diary until this point. Um we. The question left for you is, when it all gets too dark, what helps you find the light? When it all gets too dark, what helps. you find the light? I mean, creation. I. I mean, it's that really is true. If I'm. feeling depressed, um I just I've got. this It's about cheesy, but I've got.

this little. I've got this little saying I say to. myself in the head, which is the only. way out is art. And and so, if I want to. feel good, I'll go and. do some work, do some writing. And if. I'm proud of it, it'll sort of pull me. out of it. So, that that that's kind of. what helps me see the light, my. my my art. And how does that relate to. the status game book? Status game. Massively, because I I feel good about. myself. You know, if if I This is my. game, writing. And if I feel like I've. written something good,

I feel like there's hope. And it kind of gives you a psychological. status boost. Absolutely. Yeah, cuz we you know, we we. we we we have this imaginary audience in. our heads. We're not just being judged. by other people, we're being judged by. ourselves. So, so so yeah, that I think. that's hugely important. Will, thank you. Incredibly. illuminating, and it's given me a a. tremendous amount of food for thought. You know, when we do this podcast, I'm. always selfishly. looking for um ways that I can make. changes to my life or understand the. decisions I'm making so that I can make.

decisions more in line with my values or. more in line with where I want to go. And I think your this book in. particular, the status game. I I pause. every time I say it cuz I'm scared to. get the wrong word. The status game. Yeah. This book in particular, the. status game, um is is one of those that. is in tremendously illuminating because. it explains so much. It's almost like. it's turning a light on in a. huge room that I didn't even know was. there. Um and really revealing to me. what what what the forces are that are. controlling um much of my.

decision-making for better or for worse. It's not to say that I will abandon. abandon trying to abandon those forces. because I don't actually believe I can. I think that's who I am. But being more. conscious about them, which I think is. exactly what this book allows you to do. as they relate to your relationships, your personal life, your business, is I. think something that we can all benefit. from. So, thank you for writing such an. amazing book. And thank you for writing. all of these amazing books, but this one. in particular um is my favorite, the. status game. Came out last year, I. believe. Um. Yeah. Just out on paperback 2 weeks ago. On paperback 2 weeks ago, and I've had a. lot of people that specifically cuz.

you've had a few conversations with some. friends of mine really raving about this. book. So, I highly recommend everybody. checks it out. Um of all these books, I. love them all, but this one in. particular is my favorite. And I can't I. can't be more excited to see what you. write next. Fantastic. Thank you for your honesty as. well. Not everybody is so willing to be. so open and honest, and I think there's. something so um. so important because. it's it's human and it's truthful about. the way you're willing to be honest. about your own struggles in your life. and the things that you're searching for. as it relates to connection and those. things. That is we're all we're all.

going through the same battles, and. hearing that from you as well, I think. is particularly important. So, thank. you. Thank you. Thank you for your. amazing questions, too, Steven. I had a. really good time. Thank you. I had a few words to say about one of my. sponsors on this podcast. Crafted are a. brand that sell really meaningful, affordable men's jewelry. And I've been. a Crafted customer, I think, for about 3. years now. The piece of jewelry I wear. the most, I want to introduce you to the. pieces and why I wear them, is the sand. timer, unsurprisingly. And the thing for.

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