The Marketing Genius Behind Nike: Greg Hoffman | E150

i was told that the kkk was gonna get me. and that's frightening when you're a. child. [Music]. chief marketing officer to vice. president of global brand an almost. three decade career at nike that's right. yeah you know nike was really the only. brand that was putting people of color. in their communication that showed me. you could make a living doing what you. love. why is the air force one shoe an example. of nike not chasing cool it wasn't. created to make a statement in culture.

it was created to make a statement on. the court and the fact that moses malone. won on the court in the air force one. that's cool. your authenticity is your cultural. currency the minute your audience can no. longer see your original pursuit they. partner with someone else. april 2021 significant month for you in. your life i got a dm through 23andme and. that opened up meeting my birth families.

the last thing you'd want to be is. rejected and it was just. so without further ado. i'm stephen bartlett and this is the. direva ceo usa edition i hope nobody's. listening but if you are. then please keep this yourself. [Music]. greg.

i'm a tremendous believer in. the fact that our early years are. incredibly formative what are the things. that really left a. remaining mark on you in terms of their. influence as an experience or an event. or trauma. yes again i had two passions growing up. sport and art. and really. why i got involved in art and art of all. sorts whether it was drawing painting. sculpting. is growing up as a half black half white.

adopted kid into a white family going to. a all-white school system and. experiencing uh lots of adversity. through racism and and other things art. was the thing that i was ex able to. essentially escape from reality. and find myself in. in the art and that's when i started to. discover that i could draw things in. accurate detail you know i could dream. and then put that on paper and it was. very powerful and it was a way for me to.

you know not only feel empowered. but also. um engage my imagination and then sport. as well you know sport evens the playing. field if you will and so that was. essentially the other escape where i. felt like i wasn't such an outsider on. that. and so i think when you experience uh. adversity like that when you're. oftentimes the only one in the room um. which i think you can relate to even. even today. um you also look out for other outsiders.

you know you're keeping an eye on other. groups or other individuals that haven't. been invited. if you will. and so you're right i took those uh. experiences uh because they never leave. you no matter how much success you have. um you carry some of those chips on your. shoulder but it doesn't have to be used. as a negative. uh and so as i made my way through life. and found myself into in positions.

of influence i looked out for those. individuals on that because again when. when i grew up in the the late 70s and. early 80s. you were taught to not see color. right that was that period of time which. means how can you be empathetic if your. parents or those that are there to. support you teachers aren't seeing how. what your experience is like. so. i love today where that is not the case.

and you do need to see people for how. they identify themselves to better equip. and empower them to achieve you know. their hopes and dreams. when you're young and you're different. in some way we can all probably relate. to being different in some way when. we're younger. but not everybody can relate to what it. feels like to be racially abused when. you're young. and the confusion the. you know the inadequacy whatever it. might be that that leaves you with. can you recall the first time someone.

racially abused you when you were. younger. absolutely. i was actually in kindergarten and it. started happening every day i was told. that the kkk was going to get me. now i didn't know what the ku klux klan. the kkk was but i did know that i was. the only person that they were saying it. to and then you'd come into school the. next day and you'd hear this the kkk is. going to get you. and that's quite. frightening when you're a child right um. and um you're you're in that situation.

alone and you you don't necessarily. have the individuals that you could talk. to about it so essentially you kind of. you you bottle that up and. that was the first situation and the. issue. oftentimes with with kids certainly at. you know. during that particular time. is you identify people through their. appearance right. on that. and for me i just hadn't developed the.

voice to fight with my voice so. obviously it resulted in a lot of. altercations throughout my early life. and even into my teenage life because it. took me a while to develop. a voice to be able to combat that with. words right. so that was the beginning but it didn't. take long to uh start hearing the n-word. shortly thereafter. in high school. uh in grade school in grade school and.

so again though i i share those moments. more as a way of of telling people that. you know make sure you're looking beyond. what's on the surface. this is. gets back to great brand building. don't just look at the assumptions and. observations that we all see. you got to look beyond that to see how. people really are experiencing and. feeling within their life and you you. saw that come to life in some of the.

campaigns that i worked on right. stand up speak up campaign with tyrion. re. was all about fighting racism that you. act that's invisible you can't see it. but the players are hearing it. i want this to be uplifting. but i think it's important to your point. to understand where we come from. and our adversity doesn't need to. necessarily be something that holds us. back it can be fuel. for the way we are motivated.

to get to those points where we're we're. putting work out in the world or helping. others so that they don't have to go. through that. you reference your art in the book as. being a bit of an escape for you in the. early years. what was your art what was it was it. design was it photography what was your. art my parents didn't have much um but. um i they really invested in my passion. for for art and design. and i shared a bedroom with. my two brothers small bedroom and so.

imagine three beds. and then there were three other. elements in this bedroom okay one was my. drafting table and desk where i drew. all the time second was a sand filled. weightlifting set that just sat in the. middle and then finally my parents. which is um pretty innovative they just. basically left a wall white and they put. a wood frame. around the entire wall and they said. this is your mural and you can paint or. draw anything you want on it.

right and again cramped space i just. want you to think about like three kids. in here so i would draw sports logos. baseball football hockey logos on this. this is one of my obsession with. branding um and the art of how powerful. and and how. logos and symbols can connect and create. so much story and emotion and then the. other thing i drew all the time was. superheroes because i was obsessed with. comic books and that idea of.

heroics and athleticism but within that. i i started to understand how your art. can. communicate and through those logos and. the visual communication that. i saw. within the world of sports. started to pique my interest. in in doing this. and i'll take it a step further. i got really lucky uh when i was. 15 i got a job in a warehouse at a small.

publishing company. just in the warehouse after school and. throughout the summer just packing books. into boxes but i noticed that there was. an art department. in this place. and i'm not sure where i got the courage. but somehow i did i went in and i i said. hey is it possible for me to spend part. of the time in this art department and. part of it in the warehouse. you have you have to put yourself out.

there to ask i learned that at that. point and they said yes. and so suddenly i was shoulder to. shoulder as a 15 year old with. art directors and writers and creative. directors and storytellers and then by. the next year i spent. all my time in the art department and. not only in there doing menial tasks. they were having me do illustrations. they were having me do page layouts. again this is pre-computer. so um that showed me at an early age.

that you could make a living. doing what you love what are you. passionate about because up until that. point i wasn't necessarily sure. how you could. essentially. you know make a living doing that so. that that was kind of my earliest stage. in terms of art as commerce if you will. was within the publishing arena but what. it did do is it gave me a shortcut to to. start to focus on that so by the time i.

got to college i knew. that. i wanted to be a designer. you knew you wanted to be a designer. that's right yeah and you went on and. studied design. at college graduated. and then. the story as i as i heard it is you. basically get two internships. post-graduation you get a call from nike. nike said that they've got this urgent. position you've got to drop everything. and come now and start at nike and that. starts and i've skipped a process there. but yeah that starts the.

an almost three decade career at nike. that's right yeah where you move from. what was your first role at nike called. do you remember just a graphic design. intern. graphic design intern. to. chief marketing officer to vice. president of global brand innovation. over almost 30 years. for me this is remarkable for many. reasons obviously being involved nike is. one of those companies and culture and. in society that is more than a brand. they're more than a shoe company for. many reasons which we'll talk about but.

also the really staggering thing is you. stayed at a company for 30 almost 30. years. my question there is. what is it about you that made you so. loyal to that company. because a lot of people can love their. job but they still get that desire to. move on and do something awesome. 30 years at one company what is it about. you. that made you stay in terms of your. character or whatever. yeah i think two two things one is the. again this this incredible situation.

where. art and sport. uh came together. and this brand certainly mastered the. art of art of marketing right. and and expressing the art that exists. in sport and the art of storytelling so. i didn't have to choose it's like wow. you show up to this place and it's like. your two passions on full display. that's number one. two it's i often times told people that. nike was like.

miniature graduate schools because every. two years there was either a world cup. or a summer olympics so imagine the. transformation in terms of innovation in. terms of new athletes in terms of new. platforms and technology in terms of how. you can engage with consumers and so not. to mention what your audience is. experiencing during that time in terms. of how they want to engage with brands. and so i always told people it's almost. like the.

it was a new slightly new company every. two years and. to be able to participate in both these. these you know essentially restarts or. revolutions right so that was very. exciting then i'd say the final thing. um is that you know by the time i was a. teenager and started to see seeing. nike's commercials you know nike was. really the only brand that was. putting people of color. in their communication really you had to.

look really hard. around the arena of of companies to see. anyone else doing that and so. that started to instill in me the power. that this brand has um to represent uh. everyone but and also you know it's in. their mission statement to bring. inspiration and innovation to every. athlete. so um those are some of the factors that. um. uh kept me. engaged for for that long as well as um.

i i have this you know nike's. original um. slogan was there is no finish line. before just do it there is no finish. line. and so if. you're you know maybe a perfectionist or. you're always in pursuit of better. and even to your own detriment sometimes. right never satisfied never finished i. was kind of all of those things. oftentimes i think a lot of creators and.

makers are right so that was the other. part of it that you could always keep. reaching um for that next. design or that next story. and um and the company's expectations. were just as high of you as itself. you know. um and what what's great about. nike and certainly the nike i grew up. with is. complacency was the enemy of creativity.

so there was no. sitting back right it's kind of that. forward lean just like in in athletics. so that's just a a few of the um. aspects i think that um. just you know created that. longevity and loyalty. brands companies teams they. over time learn what's making them. successful and lean further and further. into that so i'm wondering in your 30. years at nike what did you see nike. realize while you were there and lean.

more into in terms of the values of the. organization how it operates from a. marketing perspective a culture. perspective or whatever do you. understand what i'm trying to say like. sure well first and foremost i think and. i you know. i i'm a brand advisor now with. establishments brands and startups. and. you know. what nike had from the beginning is such. a clear. brand house if you will. its belief its mission its vision its.

values you know where are you going how. are you gonna get there. what do you believe what's your promise. to your audience and what are the. characteristics and traits that compose. your brand in that pursuit um to deliver. inspiration and innovation to everyone. and so it's imagine the power of that in. terms of everyone is clear as they walk. through the door. to show up to work why they're there and. i say this because a lot of brands can't. say that.

a lot of startups haven't even got there. yet because they're just trying to. perfect their product and get it to. market. and so first and foremost this idea that. authenticity and serving the athlete. is. the anchor. at all times. so even though you're trying to be maybe. the most influential and coolest brand. on earth you know and there's an art to. doing that. um you always have to go back and ensure. that um it serves the athlete in the the.

deepest way possible and that's why you. know. maybe we'll get to this later but. um i always use that mantra don't chase. cool. because uh most likely you're not gonna. catch it. and that idea that your your. authenticity in terms of what i've. learned over and over again keep going. back to your authenticity is your. cultural currency the minute your. audience can no longer see your original. pursuit. and every company is a bit different.

is the day they kind of leave you and go. go engage and partner with someone else. that's in part because you've left. yourself right in the pursuit of cool. you've abandoned your authenticity you. talk about that in chapter six of your. book emotion by design which is out now. you talk about the air force one. in that chapter as an example of. success in that realm so. why is the air force one shoe an example. of nike not chasing cool. well first and foremost uh it's an.

innovation that was created in 1982. that. was. created to serve the basketball athlete. right it wasn't created to make a. statement in culture it was created to. make a statement on the court. and the designer was obsessed with. creating something that gave that. athlete an advantage. and it's really hard to create if you. want any chance for a product to.

ultimately become a cultural icon if you. will and by the way brands don't get to. decide that you know your audience does. over time. then you must the the the inception and. creation of that product has to start. with. what's the benefit that you're trying to. deliver what's the problem you're trying. to solve. so that's that's part one and the fact. that someone like moses malone who was a. center for the philadelphia 76ers at the. time you know won on the court.

in the air force one so that's cool. that's proving that innovation. right out of the gates and so from there. as it grew in stature. what was great about all the teams that. played a role across all the different. disciplines at nike to bring this to. market every year. is all of the storytelling was rooted in. authenticity this colorway came from. this basketball court.

this colorway was from this. new york outdoor court. and this player scored x amount of. points you know the stories are rooted. in an emotion like and you as a. enthusiast for this sneaker got to take. part in a little bit of that and as i. talk about in the book you know at some. point stories no longer. you know belong only to the brand they. get passed down um and so um the air.

force one is interesting because this. year again it was the the highest. selling sneaker. out there. and so it's very accessible and yet it's. also you could argue the most um. culturally relevant sneaker as well and. so it's aspirational. and so my point is that's by design. you're you're ensuring that there's a. level of the authentic storytelling. and that those that you're partnering.

with the ambassadors if you will that. show up in your communication um on that. have a have a a real. um connection and affinity. for the air force one just like kendrick. lamar grew up with the nike cortez. sneaker. very real relationship with the shoe. that's very much a part of la. and so when we partnered with kendrick. lamar it's coming from a shared passion. and that authenticity comes through.

to your your audience right when it. doesn't that's when it it feels like. you're chasing cool. um and so i always say just make sure. your connections are are really really. clear to your audience in terms of who. you partner with what is the the real. purpose of your product. beyond all the the shiny new. um partnerships and other things you can. do. you still have to kind of go back to its. its roots.

an example of where a brand has. has not done that well. can you think of a couple top of them. well for some reason i thought of that. uh that pepsi advert i know it was a. tragedy for so many reasons but when. they got one of those kardashians to. kind of hold the pepsi can in that. social justice scene that riot scene you. couldn't as an audience member. understand why that kardashian was stood. there apparently as the. cure to a social justice issue holding a. kind of it all felt and disjointed.

inauthentic yeah because you have to be. able to connect what you sell to what. the world needs in a specific moment. when it comes to. social impact or social justice so. whether you're a food and beverage. company an automobile company a sneaker. company. if. you want to. participate in that conversation and you. know break down barriers and empower. people or change the way people feel. about a particular issue. it's for nike you had to speak through.

the lens of sport. that's the connection right and i think. when you see a brand maybe miss you know. sometimes you might be. watching tv and you'll see an ad and. it's clear that this whoever this brand. is that they are trying to. create positive change in the world but. you can't figure it out and it's not. until the end that you see the logo. you're like okay i don't get the. connection. and so the point is is like you you have.

to start by saying. um. is what's happening in this situation. uh relate to our values and our mission. and then if it does. what new unique insight are we bringing. to the conversation that's not already. being talked about and then finally the. the other thing steven is is um. because i think sometimes the default is. we need to say something as a brand when. there are so many other ways that you. can engage. and and be a part of the conversation.

right and um. just just look at what epic games did in. terms of taking the uh revenue from. fortnite. over a period of time. and making donations to ukraine relief. they didn't do an ad. but they found a way that was authentic. to them. to. you know create an opportunity that's. going to help a lot of people um in a. really tough situation right now so. that's the thing when i'm talking to to.

brands it's like that's just number one. it's like storytelling isn't always. um the example advertising in terms of. you know social impact statements um and. um part one and part two you you must. um ensure. that. what you want to say. clearly comes through. who you are as a brand and what you. bring into the world that's why i say. connect what you sell with what the.

world needs if you can't do that then. most likely you need to think about kind. of moving into a different arena so. those are when when i see something. maybe that's tone deaf or it's not um. you know it's usually because it's just. simply not on brand. and it's confusing to your audience. much of the the things we'll talk about. i'm sure are underpinned by a topic you. talk about in the t and in the book in. chapter two which is teams and culture. um that kind of underpins everything you. referenced how when people walk in the.

door at nike it's quite clear that. there's a they have clarity of culture. in terms of why they're there and what. what they're doing there etc. you were at nike for almost 30 years um. had a lot of people work underneath you. um you observe that organization from. various perspectives. how does one build a culture that wins. on its objective. and how do they and how does someone. keep that culture and police it and. protect it from. scale and you know harm and you know.

yeah no it's it's a it's a great great. point um because you know creative. collaboration. uh is unique because oftentimes. uh creativity and innovation is a very. personal pursuit right it can get pretty. territorial you know you've spent a lot. of time on this and. you know you're you you want insurance. essentially that you you get credit and. so a lot of what you're doing is trying. to instill both self-confidence and. self-awareness. um so that and you're trying to.

eliminate kind of the silos and in. independent kind of. studios you if you will um i was given. this awesome opportunity to run all the. creative functions at nike you know. here's the coolest. most influential brand and so my job was. to take. advertising and digital marketing and. brand design and event marketing. take all these groups that have worked. independently for quite some time.

where the. integration took a lot of work with. really long passes and i i used this. example frequently and i'm sure it drove. my my teams crazy but. i used uh fc barcelona as an example of. radical creative collaboration you know. their style of play the tiki taka it's. all those short passes there's there's. no waiting everybody's moving around the. field at the same time and i would show. the team these clips of this you know.

pep guardiola's fc barcelona team. passing the ball 40 50 60 times in a. game in a row without interruption okay. and how does that happen it's because. you could say radical selflessness. right the goal is just. literally the pursuit is still to put. the goal. in uh the net um you need the buy-in and. my job was to make sure that i was there. with the empathy needed to recognize the.

contributions of everybody but. but to also ask people to make the. sacrifice. so that we could run faster. be more timely. create more distinctive work and. ultimately as things. are going the consumer expects. everything in their life to be connected. right the last thing they would want to. hear about is that. um there are these really long handoffs. between agencies and brands and.

departments and that's why the work is. kind of disjointed you can't have that. you'll you'll lose your consumer so part. of it is it was creating this. connected team this this one team that. that operated. with great chemistry just like the the. greatest um teams in the world on that. and. maybe one other piece to that was this. this idea of individuality and so for. for that and again i'm telling you i'm.

sure there's folks out there that. got tired of seeing my my um parallels. with the sport of football. but the brazil national team was a team. that i had you know this this 25-year. relationship with starting as an intern. right and what's great about the brazil. national team is that um they played. with the zhenga style which means to. sway. and zynga is is you know the influences. of that style of play. comes from capoeira you know brazilian.

martial arts and samba. um. but um it emphasized uh the individual. eccentricities of the players um we've. all watched brazil over the years we've. been enthralled by them and sometimes. they drive us a bit mad because maybe. there's a bit. of disorganization but at the end of the. day they've won five world cups more. than any other team and that's because. they value the diversity and ex the the. perspective and experience and expertise.

of each individual player. and so yes there's structure that team. um yes there's an expectation that. there's a level of precision but they. allow. improv they allow spontaneity to reveal. opportunity throughout those games and. that's why oftentimes anywhere you go in. the world. it's someone's second favorite team. beyond the club that they support. and so that was another point of. inspiration that i use to lead these.

these massive teams right you're talking. about just the scale of of nike in terms. of the output. of of creative around the world. you needed to still have a high degree. of operational excellence to run. something. like that but i wanted to make sure that. you were incentivized to take risks. you had the space to be able to.

present ideas that may not be on the. plan. and you had a receptive executive team. that was willing to hear from you. and that's why there's so many examples. of the book. um of work that wasn't briefed. of work that was just a conversation. with a couple people who were empowered. to visualize that idea. and then put it out in the world many of. them. um ideas that had great scale and are. still around today so.

that's just a little insight in terms of. how i looked at building that chemistry. how did you incentivize risk. or. disincentivize risk adversion. so it's a great call and again i i'm. still figuring it out. um because. think about it you're you're asking. individuals um. right brain and left brain thinkers. to essentially.

you're saying i said this often we're. going to develop four different. concepts this. quarter. and they're going to be outside of our. normal workload because again we have to. deliver the business front and center we. can't get distracted from that. but alongside of that we're gonna. visualize and prototype four ideas but. you know what only one of them. probably will have a chance so that's. not for everyone right oftentimes people. only want to work on things that have.

almost 100 certainty of finding their. way in the world. you know. and. i had to condition everyone to ensure. that they were were comfortable taking. the big swings and part of that is. seeing. the end results. like again let's look at the last two. years you see this particular concept. that is now in. you know 500 stores around the world. you know it's. one example but the house of hoops.

example we had a conversation about. how could we. create a store. specific to basketball. that had the same level of passion and. energy that a kid's room would have. if they loved basketball you go into a. kid's room they would have posters and. so much inspiration and objects and. pictures. that really express their passion and. yet how come you go into a store. oftentimes and.

it might just be shoes on on a wall and. you're not feeling the story and the. legacy of that. and so. rendering that up and knowing that in. three days you could have an audience. with the president of the company and. not only that you could get a go no go. that quickly of well let's let's try. this concept in the wild and then lo and. behold in less than two years you have. 300 of those stores. around the world so.

all you need is a couple of those. examples to say okay well i'd like to. participate in that. and. i buy into this idea that not everything. we're going to do is is going to make it. but why i say that i'm still trying to. figure it out is is. it is hard to convince some people. that. failure is what leads to success. that and if i can use this example it's. not in the book but it's literally my. favorite.

commercial ad of all time and it's. michael jordan's 9 000 shots. and. amazing. uh commercial from 1997 and the widening. kennedy agency sat down with him and. learned that michael had missed 9 000. shots. 26 times he was asked to take the. game-winning shot. and he missed. and he said yet i failed over and over. again but that's why i succeed. and that's the spirit of.

risk-taking. in the innovation space. you need you need to take the shot. because even if you miss it success will. come down the road and so that's what i. try to instill. uh with my team. quick one we bring in eight people a. month to watch these conversations live. here in the studio when we're here in. the uk and when we're in la if you want. to be one of those people all you've got. to do is hit subscribe. chapter three of your book the title is. never play it safe play to win which is. very much in line with what you're.

talking about there and i think one of. the more interesting concepts. which which was mentioned in the book. which i could really relate to was. how you say that some of nike's boldest. ideas. came when the team had no time. or resources. and actually that's really what founded. my company to be honest because uh we. ran out of money so all of the. conventional marketing um channels were. out of budget so we were left to figure. something else out and that's when we. started thinking about social media in.

2012. and it was free we could put time in and. get a big return and off we went and. that started my company which now you. know ended up making 700 million. whatever it is this year it'll make. um and that was when we ran out of money. our best ideas came so when i read that. i thought oh this is. interesting. so so true so often uh and also i put a. yeah a timeline in a budget um or lack. of budget but a strict timeline can be. amazing right do you always do timelines. i was going to ask you that as well do.

you always make sure projects have. timelines not necessarily but um but i. like to put a timeline on how quickly. you visualize a conversation. um that is i can't say this enough and. if i have one suggestion to. smaller brands or even startups as. they're starting to expand it's like. when you have a conversation like build. a either build internally or have a. relationship with an agency that can. take your conversations and the ideas.

you have and quickly visualize them. in a visceral way so and you've heard it. before a picture says a thousand words. and the problem oftentimes with. businesses. that maybe. are a bit uh bureaucratic. is you and i could have a conversation. about a cool idea and then three months. go by and we see each other again it's. like you know what happened to that yeah. i don't know well no one took ownership. of it one and two. i would walk out of those conversations. over and over again.

i'd walk over to the visualization team. and i said let's let's come back to the. team let's surprise them. in three days. with either an image or a short gif or a. film or even. often times. an app prototype that was working. if i didn't do that um then. more often than not you might forget. that the conversations ever happened so. i went on that tangent just to say.

um i think it's incredibly effective. these brands. large and small. that have. visualization capability. um and that everyone understands why. that's a competitive advantage. um and so many of the concepts. that were brought to life in this book. um. you know came out of the speed at which. we brought the idea to life it wasn't. well our agency's too busy.

so maybe. two months from now we can talk to him. about you know this this this new um nft. id we have no it's like how about start. to riff on some of those ideas. um so that you're first to play in that. in that sector. on that so i guess and maybe if i can. just you know there's one story in this. book which was the the ronaldinho one of. my favorite footballers of all time but. yeah we were launching a a new boot and.

um there was no time and quite frankly. there really wasn't a budget or it. wasn't talked about right. but um. born out of this urgency. was this very. resourceful. approach to storytelling which was to. shoot ronaldinho with a video camera. essentially getting these new soccer. boots football boots on the pitch. and then proceeding to do that old game. that we all played growing up of.

crossbar where you're sitting kind of. you know just under midfield and you're. trying to kick the ball and hit that top. of the crossbar only in this video. ronaldinho is able to do it you know two. three different times without the ball. hitting the ground and i'll leave it to. the audience to figure out if it was. real or not the point is is that. you know and. not only did we not have time but um. there was a young. platform that had just started to emerge. called youtube.

and. yeah the team dropped this particular. video of ronaldinho uh on the platform. and um lo and behold. it becomes the first brand film to reach. a million views right and quite frankly. all because. there was no money no time. and the team had to be unbelievably. resourceful. to to create something that would make. people. want to watch and that gets back to. emotion by design i want to emphasize.

this is that. i think the best brands ask the question. how do i want. this work. to make the consumer feel about. themselves. and make them feel empowered to go and. do great things does the work. kind of engage and stir emotions in that. way where people feel that they can go. out and do it or not does it create. indifference or. because like look there's and i'm not. saying. the speed at which we're having.

conversations now with. between brands and audiences is in real. time and you're not going to be able to. create everything as a hit you know. there's not enough time money etc. um. but you should have someone in the room. that's representing your brand story. that's representing. um the emotional qualities that can be. released through your work because if. that person isn't in the room and it's. just someone looking at it as content.

that needs to be distributed. that that's that's not very human the. stronger the emotional connections the. bigger. status your brand is going to have most. likely in culture and therefore. the more opportunities you would have to. step beyond the business to have a real. impact. in the world on on some of the most. pressing issues of our time. so i do believe there's a process to to.

to achieving that to create a strong. emotional connection with someone else. i'm presuming you have to take a strong. emotional stance yourself often so i'm. just thinking about the things that have. revoked the strongest emotional. connections with anything i do the. things that i've evoked the strongest. emotional connections with this podcast. in its audience are strong emotional. stories. but that when you do that. when you avoid indifference. you are um. putting yourself in line for potential.

criticism and attacks and you're going. to polarize people some people are going. to love and hate you. how important has that been for nike. and how important is it for. a person starting a podcast or a. business or leading a team or whatever. else for a brand like nike it was. you know. look at the athletes that represented. the brand um early on i mean they were. were all rebels you know within their. own sports and and so. you know this idea of def and you know.

having a a maxim within the company that. was defy convention right so your your. your values kind of say it's like yeah. there are going to be things we do with. conviction that may be polarizing. but it is the deep belief we have in. those things. and as long as we always relate them. back to. sport and this this idea of of you know. serving the athlete.

then. we're willing to go there um and. if we're not clearly tethered. to. you know what we say and what we do. then. we would deserve. the critique and the criticism. so i think you can for any. small or large company that's kind of. you know that's wrestling with this that. maybe wants to kind of go beyond um just. the transactions and truly move into. that arena where you really are having.

real relationships with your audience. that their affinity for you comes from. the fact that. they're getting meaningful benefits. whether those are mental or physical. that are allowing them to progress in. life you know when you reach that status. i believe indifference isn't an option. right now i believe we need to look to. brands that have that level of success. and again it's not about scale because.

there's plenty of small brands you know. mom and pop brands that are doing great. things. through their business to affect the. lives of people underserved communities. but again so much of what we're talking. about is authenticity even even. doing this book it's it's like well you. know how much social media should i do. and. on this platform does that seem like i'm. inauthentic and like i as so at the end. of the day um because i'm driving people. crazy with these questions.

is that because i you know i'm not the. most public person right but but as long. as i speak to from the the. center uh and the anchor of. the power of creativity. in business and its ability to change. the world and make that connection clear. and then if people are pissed off about. that then then it is what it is. um but more often than not look at some. of the most successful brands and.

they're they're it's it's made their own. business successful it's accelerated. their growth and so that's where i get. into this. um you know yeah our primary goal. certainly for a public company is to. drive. growth. both from a brand and business. standpoint. but more and more i believe that within. that you have to integrate this. you know being a great corporate citizen. um and using your platform to to to.

you know. provide your innovation and your. inspiration to those that quite frankly. don't have the access and opportunity to. get it how do i find which story to tell. because if i'm if i'm running this. podcast and i'm thinking okay i need to. do the logo the branding i need to. position it in a way that's going to be. this is typically the way the brain. thinks it's trying it's. the outcome is success and it's trying. to figure out which story to tell to get. me to success so. how do i make this podcast successful.

how do you go about knowing. where and how to find that story in your. business brand team whatever it is. um. and which one is the right one to tell. to get the outcome i'm looking for which. is success. the success to me is that it's not. overly packaged. the success to me is that. the transparency and of authenticity of. the conversations and that um there's a. rawness to it and that's. that is branding sometimes it's the the.

lack of. design if you will. is the very thing that makes something. successful. versus there's there's uh. you know there's go-to. um. it's always the same questions and so. that that's the one thing i i really. appreciate about what you're doing is. this again back to this this being human. um as as a. um.

being human and creating emotion. um and part of that is just due through. people can you know see themselves in. you or us um. and that the. yeah i mean that that's that's what i. say it's less about um sometimes uh. the traditional aspects of of branding. which is uh i want to make sure the. frame of every podcast has the color. gold and it must you know so and again.

i'm saying this as as someone who's. oftentimes been pretty rigid in terms of. to grow some of these businesses. to own a brand color if you will. uh. and you pick your pick your favorite. brand there's a level of repetition. needed um to build that kind of equity. in a typeface in a color. in a in a logo. you need to build that brand frame. right oftentimes startups almost skip.

that it's like no go back it's like. really build your brand uh identifiers. your brand elements right because that's. your picture frame and the stronger the. picture frame. the more the picture in it is going to. shine. the weaker that frame. then your the picture within it is kind. of it's it's just it's not on a on solid. ground. if that makes sense so that's why in the. book i talk about the picture in the. frame.

and ensuring that the frame never. outshines the picture that's what i'm. getting at it's like. you're when you're thinking about brand. brand elements and how best to express. those through the different platforms. it's the right question but making sure. that they don't take away. from. the actual storytelling. within it which is the picture which. happens a lot for me so some things that. we do intentionally to try and. communicate the.

i guess the heart of what we're doing on. this podcast for example in the branding. so one of the things is we always make. sure it feels like home. yeah so it's in whether in l.a or in. london it's actually shot in my actual. kitchen on a very similar looking table. people are actually surprised it looks. exactly the same but we always shoot it. at home because i think the. conversations we're having. are. homely ones they're the ones people have. at home they're not ones that you know. we could we could go to this in a. massive studio but it wouldn't be in. line with our values the other thing is.

it's dark in here so that speaks to the. subject matter sometimes it speaks to. secrets the other thing is obviously the. title of the podcast is the diary of a. ceo and you you ask yourself what one. might keep in a diary it tends to be. things that are a little bit deeper yeah. and there's all these small things you. know we even i mean we spend many days. this week me and jack debating removing. the microphones because it kills. what the humanness of authentic. communication so we're thinking about. ways where we can have the microphones. hanging where you we can remove the.

barrier and all these small things i. guess is that the frame is. when you think about brand elements. you're talking more about like colors. and things no i think that's the frame. as well you know when i walk into a. space i'm a bit obsessive compulsive. about. like design and details you know and i. walk in i look at the carpet and what. type of chairs and. um like the display case and what are. the objects you know and whether i go. into a restaurant or the hotel i stayed. in last night you know and i'm. i'm i'm soaking all that up but that.

isn't the. that isn't the actual experience that. isn't the actual um story look you're. revealing the story um of this podcast. through all these elements. but but it's that's still the the story. frame and. is where i'm going and then um the. delivery of you know through your voice. and these conversations is what sits. within it but my but yes those. identifiers those brand elements um play.

a huge role. because every one of them. i guess what i'm saying what i like. about when i walked in is it's like. everything was considered. it was nothing arbitrary. because what a miss. for for some. some brands large and small. when. they don't have a culture that um. cares deeply about those details. and i think the best ones do. and.

certainly. when you think of some of the the the. most successful fashion brands like. you you know there's just an ethic. inside that any any detail large or. small. um will be intentional so and you know. that's does design you know emotion by. design the word design is really about. intention. be intentional. and look to reveal something about. yourself. through this round table you know with.

the marble top it's like it all. communicates um. trust me i drive my my wife and my kids. absolutely mad. right because they've had to live with. this guy who's just constantly. moving stuff around and. you know is the clock is the bookcase. like you know curated perfectly are the. books in the right um so. if i have a problem it's in some some. ways that it's um uh i i've i'm.

you know searching for perfection too. often. and what can happen is you start to. strip the soul and personality. out of something and it's been great. that i've had people throughout my. career to balance that that's back to. this idea of creative tension like if. there's a two startup founders you know. it's i love it when it's someone's it's. someone represents the art and someone.

represents the science you know. someone's more analytical. in their decision-making process. and. others maybe a little bit more. non-linear maybe a little bit more right. brain. thinking um. and i love that tension because when you. don't have that it's like one side. starts to. kind of creep up and that's why i got. into you know i'm also the branding. instructor at the university of oregon's. graduate school of business and these. are.

you know i'm in front of mainly folks. that want to become future gms. entrepreneurs product developers you. name it right. and but i'm there to say it's like. you know yes we're going to go through. how you create a brand plan and a brand. strategy we're going to do this but. you're also going to work on brand. identity. and. don't worry about if you you can't if. you don't think you're creative because. that's. i i just that kills me when i hear that. the application of creativity yes it's.

oftentimes reserved for people that have. created a fluency. through experience and education whether. it's an architect. a coder etc. but. the creation that the site the inception. of an idea we can all participate in. that like the brainstorming of an idea. we can all participate because what. happens oftentimes is people say well i. can't draw i'm not creative. and it's like well that's.

that's only part of the equation. you know i've i've done i don't know. hundred a couple hundred. i've led a couple hundred brainstorm. sessions over the years. big and small and i've never said at the. beginning of the brainstorm session. um i want all the non-creative people to. leave the room right now. because we're going to start to concept. and be creative no it's again it's. writing left brain thinkers working to. deliver.

working together to conceive great. things. i'm really compelled by and i talk to my. team a lot about this about this and. you've mentioned it twice now this the. importance of details from your your 30. years of nike. how did you make sure teams cared about. the detail is it just continually. reminding them is there something else. we can do to make sure that our teams. and the people we work with and. ourselves even are really valuing the. smallest of details. yeah i do i do believe in. publishing.

whether it's you want to call it an. ethos a manifesto. a set of principles. where you clearly articulate. what your. design standards are or your creative. standards. i've always believed that and they they. can change over time but i'm a big. believer in publishing. um thought publishing. ideals that that you have and i'll go. even further um because what i learned.

over the years is is i was doing a. little bit too much self authorship when. i really started to manage teams i'd go. away. and i'd come back and it's like here's. the the six principles of of you know. obsessing the details that we're going. to focus on this year but i didn't. involve them in authoring those so it's. like. publish what you believe. invite. folks into the process that have. maybe slightly different opinions than.

you do. and then complete this build the. consensus and then make sure everyone. has it so that clearly as you drive down. the road and you're looking at. restaurant architecture. you know business. building architecture it's pretty clear. that people just decided like it was. good enough and. no one will ever you know who cares if. it's going to win the point isn't to win. awards the point is take something as.

far as you can. um. to. contribute something great to. you know to society whether it is a. building. or um. a book or this bottle design um you know. the amount of thought that went into. that i think that's the typeface. helvetica i believe and the choices made. to go upper and lower case like that's. all intentional. you know to have it black on white.

um. human fuel yeah well and that's the. thing i mean you have to start with. naming right and one of the hardest. pursuits is naming a product or naming a. company because it's such a crowded. space but man if you get the name right. it will save you. millions in marketing. so if i was to ask you now and i used to. say right i have a team of 100 000. people and i want them to be great. marketeers but we're only allowed to. give them. three guiding principles.

which they will take with them these can. just be philosophies ideas whatever but. we can only give them three guiding. principles to hope to make them. successful what would those top three. guiding principles be. i'll start with the three. characteristics. um that i would say it's like we're. gonna we're gonna have the dominant. traits of empathy curiosity. and let's call it courage or risk taking. like those. those three traits is what we're going.

to be known for. and for empathy. you know to me within the marketing. process is is you know the principle. that i talk about in the book is you. know see what others see. find what others don't. the best marketing teams and the best. communication teams. are able to peel back the layers get. under the surface of a human being. a city or a community. and find the deeper. insight or truth. that resides there and then they reveal.

it through storytelling it's back to the. michael jordan example how many how many. more. ads could you do about him dunking a. basketball so empathy is like go deeper. whether you're designing a product it's. like. you know you're you're. you're revealing the the the true. problem that needs to be solved you're. not just observing some behavior and. making. um you know uh a. you know hypothesis off that you're.

actually spending the time to go deeper. and deeper into that and that's that. idea of see what others see find what. others don't curiosity is that idea of. getting outside yourself. because. it's one thing to have. the insight. right and the problem that you're going. to solve and you're clear on that. but now you need to reveal it to the. world. and oftentimes you need. uh points of inspiration coming into the. process and that's why.

you look at. nike air. probably the greatest innovation in the. history of of sneakers right uh. air air. air bags and air cushioning and sneakers. well that came from an engineer at nasa. who was. experimenting with creating an. innovation for astronaut helmets for. space exploration. and he brought that to nike and that led. to nike air that's my point about find. inspiration outside of your sector and.

that's the idea of bringing the outside. in so that's the curiosity thing outside. uh get outside yourself and then. you know. finally is that idea of of you know we. don't play it safe we play to win. um we want to def we we're not. comfortable with the status quo. um and. we want people comfortable. kind of. pursuing what's next. not just getting complacent and. delivering.

products services. stories in the way everyone else is so. we also want to be a team that that is. obsessive about. um every aspect of. branding. you know and so. think of how powerful that can become is. if you have. a team. and that they're deeply empathetic to. who they serve like they get great at. learning and asking questions.

they're unbelievable uh. unbelievably curious and always looking. beyond what's in front of them to see. what else they can because so much of. innovation is about transference you. take something from here you bring it. into your sector. and you you you change the game and then. and then but and then the risk-taking. thing is not feeling like you have a. team that has to ask for permission to. use their imagination i think that's. really important. because.

if you're in a if you develop a culture. where. people have to ask. um to think people have to get approval. um. then you're not i i don't believe you. would be known as a leading innovator in. in your space on that so those are just. a few but i i just think it's also i'll. tell you this when i was cmo i did an. informal. poll with. my. the marketing leaders and i'm biased of.

course but. i felt and i believe this is the best. marketing team in the world i said what. are the top two characteristics you look. for in any marketer that you're. interviewing for a particular job. within the nike marketing team and the. top two. um traits that. came to the top from everybody was. curiosity. and collaborative. i mean to a person and it was kind of. tied i want someone who's.

always searching for inspiration is. curious about. about their teammates about the consumer. about technology entertainment. art. and then i want someone who who can play. with others right and um that you can. feel that sense that this person is um. has conviction um you know believes in. themselves but can play within a in a.

team um and those were the two that that. rose to the top and and um you know and. i i think that's true today. quick one i just wanted to share a. fantastic initiative from one of my. podcast sponsors for those of you that. are looking to grow your business online. right now you can get 200 pounds of. social media advertising paid for by. vodafone business when you sign up to. three unlimited mobile plans social. media has a huge impact on your business. if i had to start my business again from.

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and how i'd spend that 200 pounds at. vodafone giving search vodafone digital. boost and obviously terms and conditions. apply. april 2021. significant month for you in your life. does it ring a bell yeah absolutely yes. i was sitting at home uh actually. reading the new york times an actual. newspaper remember those. um and uh yeah i got a a dm uh through. 23andme i had i had done the 23andme.

thing. 23andme for anybody that doesn't yeah so. you you submit your dna um and it's. along with ancestry.com. um it gives you kind of your family tree. you can figure out others that have. joined 23andme if you're related to them. uh and um. you know a variety of other. things in terms of what you might be. susceptible for from a medical. standpoint or other.

and so. you know as some as an adoptee and. growing up not knowing who my parents. were or who my families were. having lots of questions my whole life. but basically i'd gotten to the point. where it is what it is and i'm just. moving on with my life right. um so i'm sitting around and i get this. this dm and and through 23andme and and. i usually just ignore those because. sometimes it's like hey you have a uh. predisposition to like uh breadcrust i.

mean you get these emails right and it's. like oh and great another 23andme notice. but i look in it and this note says um. wow i had no idea i had an uncle. on this uh. or in life. and so i looked at it and then um i. looked at the name and i went to. you know as you do i went to facebook. right and i looked this person up. and i was like whoa so the person went. to my high school.

the person was also a graphic designer. which was my what i got a degree in they. had a degree. and as we did my wife and i did a little. bit more sleuthing it turned out that. this wasn't my niece this was my. sister. and this meant that. her mom was. you know not my sister her mom was my. mom. and so. wow that that was a lot right and that.

opened up uh an unbelievable door. over the last year of meeting my birth. families. and for the first time being able to. answer questions like why do i look the. way i do. why do i have this. why is my voice the way it is and why do. i have certain characteristics or. passions and as i dove deeper into it um. you know two things started to unfold. one is the the amount of art and design.

um practice going back generations on. both sides right not to mention my. sister. you know as a graphic designer my birth. mom was a long time flight attendant but. would spend all of her down time at art. museums from around the world. my birth grandmother was a painter right. and there was art and design on my. father's side. but. kind of going back to where we started. this conversation right about race and.

search for identity. and not necessarily growing up. with the black experience at least the. positive one. and to come all the way to today and. have spent the last year. diving very deep into my. african-american heritage. going all the way back pre-civil. american civil war. and um. and just i i i can't tell you what a.

life bonus this has been um i can't put. a dollar amount. on it to be able to. start to. put the pieces together. for the first time. because up until now you're you're. manufacturing a lot of that as someone. who's. who's adopted right um. and um so yeah it's just uh it's it's. just been an amazing run they don't all.

you know reuniting with birth families. doesn't you know the percentages aren't. always high that is going to be a. positive one and in this case. um everyone has been just i mean. unbelievably. generous with their time thoughtful. and. i have. i could put together a museum of all the. objects and. pictures and um. memorabilia from. the generations of these families um you.

know now and it's just been uh it's just. been amazing and i wanted to make sure i. i captured some of that in the book. to. to honor. them as well and i want to say something. too it's like. to learn that your grandfather was the. only black man. in his graduating class in college in. 1955. can you imagine what that was like. in america in 1955. to be the. only. black person let alone there was no.

women in that class. so um yeah i i just look at that and uh. i i start to feel where some of my. um. drive uh to to you know. create things that stand out um do. things a bit differently. and um. and now i have a backstop if you will. um a history that maybe i didn't uh get. to draw from.

uh in the past. you must have. first met. your and got to hug your biological. mother what was that day like. yeah i mean it it's again you're you're. talking about a time when you know my. birth parents were 17 when they had me. and. you know you've got two kids one's black. one one's white. in minnesota. in 1970. that's just not acceptable. you can imagine right.

in high school. so. and. my birth mom right had to go live in a. home as you did as a teenager if you got. pregnant and to have me and then had to. give me up okay. so and then keeps that a secret. her whole life until. that day when her daughter said. i have to ask you something you know. i i know i have a brother.

so. two months later. after lots of discussions kind of. getting comfortable getting to know i we. fly out there. and yeah i mean it's um as you're. i'm trying to play it cool because. that's me just always trying to be be um. you know. cool about things. and um but really it's it's just like. how's this gonna go i mean because the. last thing you want to be is rejected. but now that you've crossed that point.

there's. you this is a new experience that you. know you've never had. so what's great that my birth mom did is. i i as we parked and we met like. at a park acro on a lake with with them. is she just cause. i didn't know if i could make the first. move but she came running up and just. gave me a big hug we didn't even say. anything and that was the beginning of. that the first time i saw her in person. and it was just uh.

yeah i mean um. you know uh. it's just i'll be honest i'm a happier. person. so. you know. and. it's not that i was i i've gotten so.

much. so much i have such a wonderful family. and kids. and such an amazing career and having. the opportunity to share it with. everybody um but to experience this at. this stage of my life is just i mean. it's just amazing. thank you. it's been a real honor and uh you know. you you've inspired me tremendously for. so many reasons and you've been a real. sort of affirming.

uh and reaffirming force reading your. book emotion by design um. has taught me a lot of the things that i. did right and i didn't even know i did. write and then a lot of the things that. i definitely could have done better in. certain areas of my life and even you. know i can say i'm. almost 30 years old as a marketeer. but you've illuminated certain things. that i i don't think people talk about. enough especially considering the way. that the world is heading and it's and. how you know creativity is being. sometimes talked about in a secondary. sense to things like ai and data and and.

we're losing the human in things but not. just in marketing in the world as well. there's an optimization of our lives. driven by data which is which is. sacrificing the love and the art and the. beauty of what it is to be a human and. that's also the broader point that i got. from the book is and from you today is. is the importance of not losing that and. yeah we do have a closing tradition on. this podcast. which is the previous guest leaves a. question for the next guest.

is there something right now. that you know you're doing wrong. but you haven't fixed yet. if so. how will you get. unstuck wow. now we're going deep. the election. in america. um in 2016. really. damaged the relationship with my parents. my. parents who adopted me.

because i'm you know. uh obviously being um. you can see through the work that i'm. very much um. you know on the left if someone wanted. to uh. you know categorize me as such and i. think you could cater categorize my. parents maybe on the right and. just through all the um. uh. just the divisiveness of. america and.

the. division between political parties as. well as um. you know the citizens of america. unfortunately that is where. uh my own. family went right because. um i don't share those values and so. it's not. right right now um and i'm not one to to. allow something to just. you know not be fixed so.

while i don't have the answers to that i. can say and i'm revealing maybe too much. about my life because on the one hand. i've met my birth families and i have. these two new families i'm. really enjoying and engaging with. and then on the other side i need to. figure out. how to get beyond the politics. um. that exists today back to this idea of. getting past the ideology. to have. you know to go back to why we're.

connected in the first place through. emotion. you know. um and so i'm gonna see everybody uh in. another month and um just try to create. a create a different type of um. you know. relationship um that is respectful on. both sides. so. um i don't know if that fully answers. the question you have it perfectly but. it's uh it's a hell of a thing what's. happened um.

you know over over the last four or five. years and. how um it's it's. what started within politics um just. kind of moved into families and in some. cases it's broken them up. over um. you know. political views and such so it's less. about me being right or others being. right it's just trying to find like what. is the common kind of. you know cause that we can kind of.

at least agree on. on that. so. perfectly answered and very very very. important topic that people don't talk. about enough because it i think a lot of. families will relate to that division. especially generationally right so kids. and their parents don't tend to be part. of the same. left right. values uh and i guess there's empathy. needed because. someone said to me one day which i've. never forgotten which is if you were if. you were them. you would be making the decisions and. believe what they believed and it's a. really simple concept but that strikes.

empathy into me so i've had like a bit. of a falling out with my mom lately. and it's because of some you know in my. view it's the way she behaves in it. whatever um and and just coming back to. that point of like well if i was my mom. and i'd been born in nigeria and i'd had. the experiences of racism that she had. growing up and then moving to the uk. being the only black woman in a village. called plymouth in the uk. having your car burned and all of these. the things that have made her so bitter. if i if i was her i would be doing. exactly what she's doing even and her.

son doesn't like what she's doing but if. i was her and i'd had her brain her. genetics her experiences i would be. doing the same thing. and for me that kind of has created an. empathy which allows me to try and keep. building the bridge. in you know an extended branch so yeah. you make a great point and i and i think. like you i never wanted i would see i. would hear about these estranged. relationships where people didn't talk. family members for years and i was like. well that's never going to be me. um but you can fall into it especially. when there's uh in in the.

there's there's polarizing things. happening in the world to your point. where there's there's um there's bound. to be generational differences in terms. of you know the eyes you look through so. um but um that's also good advice that. that you have there it does get back to. empathy and practicing what i preach. thank you greg thank you appreciate it. as you might know crafted one of the. sponsors of this podcast and crafted are. a jewelry brand and they make really.

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