The Manipulation Expert: You're Being Manipulated! Use Jealousy To Manipulate People! Robert Greene

You need the skill. If there's somebody. in your life and you don't know whether. they're a snake or that they're. genuinely your friend, approach them. from an angle and surprise them and for. a second you detect what we call fake. You should become aware of that. Robert. Greene is one of the best-selling. authors in history. internationally renowned expert on power. strategies. He's been referenced in songs by Jay-Z, Kanye West, the godfather of power, seduction, mastery. We have this idea that if I. apply myself really hard and I should be.

successful, but I kept noticing this. blind spot that people had. They were. terrible in dealing with people. And if. you're not careful and constantly. misreading people, they could manipulate. you. They could wound you. But if you. follow the process that I lay out, it. will be the best defense you could ever. have in your life. You know all the. tricks people are playing on you. We. have to learn to look behind people's. masks. To be a human being means we lie. But you know what doesn't lie? Body. language. Eyes are hard to lie. The.

smile tells you a hundred different. things if you know how to read it. But. the problem that you have is you think. it's a natural skill. I'm a human being. I know how to read people. You don't. You're operating in darkness, but I do. believe everybody has that potential. So, the first thing you do is. frenemies. Do we all have frenemies? Yes. They sabotage you, hurt you, and. you don't want them in your life. And. one common sign of a frenemy is they're.

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is to hit the subscribe button. Let's. get on with the episode. Robert, you wrote a book about human. nature in 2018 called The Laws of Human. Nature. Why did you write that book? Well, it's the fruit of a lot of. experiences that I've had. Um. So, I wrote The 48 Laws of Power. And. prior to that book, I was somebody who.

never had any power in life. I was sort. of a failure, you know, I had gone. through so many different jobs. And then. all of a sudden, I write this one book, and people are coming to me for advice. It was kind of shocking, right? And I started noticing a trend. And the. trend is. we live in this intense technological. age where we have so much power at our. fingertips, right? And we It's so easy. to get attention, and on on and on. And.

we have this idea that everything in. life should be easy. It's all about just. well, if I apply myself really hard, I. should be successful. But I kept noticing this blind spot that. people had. They were terrible in. dealing with people. They were making. all of these mistakes. Everybody wears a mask. You wear wear I. wear a mask when we're out in the public. realm, we don't exactly say what we. think, right? We We're all a bit. strategic. And if you're not careful, you're.

constantly saying the wrong things, you're constantly misreading people, you're doing things at your job that you. think are going to impress, but they. have the opposite effect, and then. something bad happens and you're. confused and you're emotional. It was like this circle atmosphere of. pain around the globe of people. suffering because they don't know how to. handle in their lives. And because we're so virtual, and we're so locked in our phones, that. we're becoming worse and worse at. reading other people, at understanding.

them. You know, when I'm sitting across. from you, I can see your body language, I can see your non-verbals, I can see. all sorts of things, I can deal with you. as a human. But when I spend 95% of my time behind a. screen, da da da da da, you know, and. that's even how I date, basic human skills of understanding, of. connecting, of empathy, of reading, they're getting hopelessly degraded. That's my long-winded answer for why I. wrote that book. If there's someone listening out there. and they can relate to certain parts of.

what you've just said, maybe it's a lack. of their own self-awareness or maybe. they have poor sort of awareness of. others, is there a starting place to reversing. that? Is there maybe a most important. skill that we need to master as at the. foundation of that transformation? very simple. It's to get down on your. hands and knees and realize you're bad. at dealing with people. The problem that you have is you think. that it's a natural skill. Yeah, I'm. okay at it, I just kind of wing it, I. understand what I'm doing, I'm a human.

being, I know I I I know how to read. people, etc. You don't. You're operating. in darkness, you're groping around. Just. realize, first of all, that you need. this skill. And once you realize that, the first. thing you do is you look inward. You. look at your own nature, you look at the. things that I write about in the book. about narcissism, about irrationality, and instead of. searching for the people around you that. fit those categories, look at yourself. So, it all begins with self-awareness.

You are the best subject of human. nature. So, when I was writing this book, it was actually quite painful. So, I'm writing a chapter on narcissism, one of the longest chapters in the book. because it's a very important subject. And I'm telling myself, "Robert, you're quite a narcissist. You. didn't think of yourself that way, but. you have all of these classic tendencies. that you're writing about in the book.". It was painful. But, in order to come to. understand narcissism in other people, I. had to sort of understand it in myself.

So, step number one is. I need this knowledge. I'm actually not. very good with dealing with people. It's. caused me problems. Go back and review. the problems and the mistakes you've. made, mistakes I've made as well many, many times. And then, when you realize that you want this. knowledge, then you begin by looking. inward. But, if you think that. that it's not needed, that you're not. it's just oh, it's kind of interesting. or maybe I'll sort of dabble in it, it. won't mean anything to you. You have to.

feel that pain that you've been through. in life, and it's kind of an ongoing. pain. It's one that I still have even. though I wrote the book, where I misread. people, where I inadvertently hurt them when I. didn't mean to hurt them, you know? And. I feel that, and I suffer from it. And. so, the pain that you feel, the emotions. that that this turns up, motivate you. then to become better at understanding. other people. What if you find things in yourself, like you said, that you don't like? You. find. narcissism in yourself, you find.

darkness in yourself. What are we meant. to do with that? Are we meant to. heal it, resolve it? You're meant to look at it. You're meant. to confront it. Um I mean, I I have in. the book a quote from the great writer. Anton Chekhov that. people can't begin to change themselves. until they know who they are, until they. understand themselves. Right? So, we all. want to change. We all want to be better. at ourselves. But until we know who we are, until we. realize our flaws and our weaknesses.

So, the main law of human nature, if I. could summarize it, is. we don't like to look at ourselves. It's. always the other person. They're the. ones with the problem. They're the ones. who are aggressive or. passive-aggressive. They're the ones who. feel envy. They're the ones who are. rational. But me, no. No, I'm a paragon. of virtue. I'm always moral. I'm always. good. I'm always smart, etc. So, it's. The point isn't to beat yourself up and. go, "Damn it, I'm an awful human being.". We're all humans, come from the same.

source. We all have the same ancestors. Our We all have the same flaws in our. brain. It's not like you're exceptional. It's not like you're the one person that. doesn't have a narcissism, that doesn't. have self-absorption. So, realizing that you're connected to. all these people, that we all have these. flaws and weaknesses, is actually not a. bad thing. It's a good thing. And then. by examining yourself deeply, you can. begin to change some of these things. You know, it's just like you I don't go.

like, "Oh, damn it, I'm a narcissist. I'm I'm self-absorbed. I think a lot. about myself. I love talking about. myself." Which is something I'm afraid I. do like to do. Right? The point isn't. well, oh well, I'm just depressed. There's nothing I can do. Once I'm aware. of it, I can begin to change it. But if. I'm always repressing it, if I'm always. thinking, "No, I'm good. I don't have. those problems." Then if you can't see. them, how can you change them? How can. you deal with them? How can you become a. better person? How can you change those.

qualities that you don't want? One of the most important things in the. laws of human nature is that you have. patterns that you are compulsive. It comes from your character. These. patterns that you see in your intimate. relationships. You always fall for the. wrong person or you sometimes fall for. the wrong person. You see it in your. work world. I make these mistakes. I get. fired for this reason, etc., etc. And. there are good patterns, but we tend to. repeat over and over and over again. these these sort of compulsive behavior.

Being aware of these patterns, being. aware of these things, you can now begin. to you have the power to change them. A lot of people. climb the mountain of awareness and I. get I was thinking about people in my. life that I've climbed the mountain of. awareness and in my own life hill things. that I'm aware of, darkness within me. that I'm aware of or challenges or. patterns I'm aware of. Taking the next step from So, I think. becoming aware is painful. And then doing something about it is.

difficult. It's painful because. there's a lot of cognitive dissonance. associated with figuring out that you're. not who you want to be. You know, and then doing something about. it requires breaking what feels like old. neurological pathways in my brain. You know, trigger. You think about the. habit cycle. How do I breaking that is. difficult. I I look at it very differently, I'm. afraid. So, I think actually it's worse. when you're not aware of who you are.

When you walk around in this world with. all of these false ideas about who you. are. You you don't even know who you are. You're wearing this mask, you're not. authentic. You're behaving in the world. as if you're somebody else. And you're not aware of that, but it's. causing you pain. It's making you suffer. because you're not aware of of the real. person that you are. You're not. authentic. And coming to terms with some of these. dark qualities is actually a very. enlightening experience. It's actually.

can be euphoric. You go, I am an animal. I'm not the saint. I'm. not this paragon that I thought I was. I'm an animal with flaws. I can embrace that. We're all like that. and it's a good thing and feeling like. you have this and you're coming to terms. with it. I have a chapter on the dark. side of human nature. Everybody has a shadow side. I have it, you have it, right? And seeing that shadow side, which is. something you've been repressing since. childhood and dealing with it and.

confronting with it is actually one of. the most wonderful experiences you can. have in life because repressing all of. these things is what is making you. miserable in life. But coming to terms. with who you are and being aware of it. is actually what liberating, you know? Where Where does it come from, uh. dark side, what you talk about in. chapter nine of the book? Well, I think it comes from uh. childhood. So, when you're a child, when.

you're three or four years old, you're like this complete person. I. compare it to like this round ball. You have good qualities. You have loving. qualities. You love your parents. perhaps. You love your siblings perhaps. But you also have these other dark. qualities, these kind of aggressive. impulses. You Sometimes you hit people. Sometimes you say nasty things, right? But you're a complete person. It's. natural. It's who you are. It's how you. were born. It's like a round ball and.

it's complete. And then slowly, year by year, month by. month, you have to cut off that dark. side, that back side of yours. In school, you're told don't ever show. that part of you. Your parents are Come. on, you got to be nice. You got to get. along. We want want to be proud of you. All of those aggressive impulses that. you have, all of those feelings where. you where you felt envy about somebody, whatever, you wished you had what your. your brother or sister had. So, they all.

go underground. Right? You force them. down. You don't want to deal with them, but. they're still there because you're a. human being. Those emotions don't leave. you. They just get pushed down and they. go into the backside of your head. That. round ball now becomes cut off. It's. like the moon with a dark side and a. front side. And when you're out in the. public and you're in work or in social. situation, you're only showing people. that bright, happy side, the good side. And you're doing the damndest conceal. all of that dark energy inside of you.

And then suddenly, because you're not aware of it, it comes. out in explosions. Very typical thing is. you suddenly get angry and you burst out. with an angry email or you yell at. somebody, you say something kind of. nasty. And then you look back and you go, "Where did that come from? That I didn't That's not really me. I. don't really like that. I I feel ashamed. about that." But what you must realize. is that's part of your shadow that's. speaking. It's coming out. You're just. not aware of it. You're trying to.

control it too much. And I say, "The best thing in life to do is not to. take out this dark side and just throw. it around the world and and and be nasty. and aggressive. That won't work. But you have to find ways to take that. energy because that dark side contains a. lot of energy, a lot of power. And use. it and channel it into ways that are. productive.". So, I happen to be someone who has. a fair amount of aggression, I have to. admit.

I'm extremely competitive, right? Even in card games, I don't like losing. So, I've channeled it into my books. I. take all of that energy and I put it. into making the best books that I can. into ambition. So, if you're ambitious, channeling that. energy into becoming the best and. beating the competition is is is a. productive way of using that dark. energy. If you feel angry about a cause or. something that pisses you off about the.

world, some injustices, instead of. whining about it, etc., you go out and. you do something. You do something. You get involved in a movement or. whatever. You channel that energy into. something productive. That's the way to deal with the dark. side, and that's You can't go throughout. life imagining that you're the same. because you're not. You have these. qualities. In your book about the strategies of. war, the. second strategy of war that you write. about is do not fight the last war.

And when I read that, what I understood. it to kind of mean was about. not being rigid. You know, how does one dismantle their. the prison of convention that they live. in? So, for that lawyer or for that person. that's working in the financial district. who is, you know, 47 and they're a. lawyer and a stockbroker and they're. miserable. Um. they have somewhat been imprisoned by. their own identity, which is like a set.

of ideas from the past. And I'm really. obsessed with how we get out of the way. of our own identity so that we can live. our most fulfilling lives. Cuz even me, you know, there's and. probably even you, I've created this. perception of who I am and I'm like. following the instructions every day. Yeah, it's a trap. You know, you can't. fall into that. So, one of the laws of. power that I have, one of the things. very important, I think it's. law 25 or 26, I don't remember the. number, is recreate yourself. So, the moment people start, um uh.

know who you are, they they they they. identify, they create your identity, "Oh, Robert Greene is this person who. writes these dark, Machiavellian, manipulative books." Then I'm trapped. I'm trapped by their perception of me, and I always have to be like a little. dog performing for them, right? And I. don't want to fall into that trap. You have to recreate yourself. You have. to use your personality and who you are. as clay that you are molding. You're. like an artist. And so, you you change.

yourself. For each person, that's different. So, for me, it means I don't write 48 Laws of Power. part two. I write now a book that's. not like the 48 Laws of Power at all. For you, it's. doing your podcast but changing it up, or maybe you do a different podcast, or. maybe you do go into a different career. set, or maybe you become. a CEO or an entrepreneur in a different. direction. I was recently on Andrew Huberman's.

podcast, right? One of the most. successful podcasts beside yours in the. world. And um. he I don't want to I. It's going to sound like bragging, but. the book Mastery helped him a lot. because he was a professor I believe at. Stanford. I hope I I have it right. Everything was going well. He was on a. fast track in in neuroscience, but he. was miserable. He hated the politicking. He hated all. the [ __ ] that you have to go through. in academia. And then he read the book, and he goes,

I don't know how old he was. He must. have been in his early 30s. He goes, "I don't want to do this. I want to. change. I want to recreate myself." He. decided to go into podcasting and to. take all of his knowledge about science. and neuroscience and bring it into a. different medium. And so, that's that's. extremely powerful because if he stayed. in academia, he would have gone down the path that. we're talking about. It sounds a little. sexier than being. in finance in your 47, but being stuck. in academia when it doesn't fit you with.

all the nasty politics that go on in. universities, etc. That is a path for. misery if it doesn't fit. So, you have. to kind of go through this process all. the time, and not let other people tell. you who you are. In the case of Andrew Huberman, who. transitioned from an academic to a. podcaster, it's quite a feat because there's lots. of forces that try and hold our existing. identity in place. A lot of people.

And to sort of cross the chasm, get past. all of that force that says, "No, we. want you to stay with us, Andrew. We. want you to be an academic. Who do you. think you are being a podcaster?". You know, that that that force I'm so. intrigued by because everyone, regardless of. where they are now, if they're going to. try and venture to somewhere else, a. better place, they're going to encounter. that. Um how does one work through that? What. is that? How do we understand that force. that's trying to keep us down? It. usually happens when you're successful.

that people start giving you these. identities that kind of define who you. are. And. if you're okay with it, that's fine, you. know, if it doesn't But I'm a big. believer in listening to your own pain. and listening to your own frustration. So, when you feel frustrated in life, you have to go through a process. You. have to look at it, and you have to go, "What is the source of it?" Normally, the first thing you'll do is you'll. blame other people, you'll blame the. world, you'll blame your your spouse, your children, whatever, right? And you.

won't really look at what it is, why. you're frustrated. And if you look at it deeply enough, and. you go, "I'm really frustrated because I'm not. enjoying my work. I'm making money. I'm going there every. day, and I'm going through the motions. And I'm successful, and people admire. me, but I'm not happy. I'm frustrated. I'm upset." You've got to lean into that. pain. You've got to lead lean into what. frustrates you, and go, "I can't go on another 5 years like this.

because. the mind and the body are tied in. There's no difference. They they're all. we're all one, we're all a unity. And so, when you start having these. frustrations, these desires that are not. you're not acting upon, it creates. physical problems. You're not aware of. why suddenly your blood pressure is. rising, why suddenly your back is having. pain like I'm having right now. It's all interconnected. And when you're. not doing something that you that you're. not engaged with, your whole being goes.

out of whack. Everything doesn't work. You've got to listen to it, you've got. to understand it. And you've got to go, "I want some joy and some excitement in. my life. I want a challenge.". It takes some fearlessness because. leaving. a prestigious job at Stanford, we've got. money, you have I don't know if he had. tenure or not or perhaps he did. You. know, it takes some guts because you're. leaving something that that that's that. you know that's that's a convention,

that's stable, etc. etc. But you've got to go, "It's not worth. the price. It's not who I am. I'm going. to suffer for it down the road.". And so, you know, let's say he decided to go. into podcasting. and it failed. All right, so be it. Then he learns that. and he he's somebody who's very smart. He would have figured out another way to. another direction to go in. If my book The 48 Laws of Power hadn't. been a success, I don't know what would have happened to. me, but hopefully I would have figured.

out another way to go, you know, cuz I. also had to drop a career direction that. I was going in. But you've got to try. You've got to be able to try and you've. got to go to say yourself, "It's actually a great thing. in your 30s, let's say, to go, 'I need something new. I need something. completely different. I need a new. challenge. I'm going to drop this. I'm. going to start something.' You won't. believe the energy that will suddenly. rise up in you, right? You'll suddenly.

feel invigorated. You'll suddenly feel. youthful again. I'm not stuck in this thing. I can try. something else. I'm so intrigued by two things within. that. One of them was going back to the. case of Andrew who left Stanford and. became a podcaster was my brain you said. um he's an intelligent guy who would. have figured it out if he'd failed. My. brain also was saying. he could have always gone back. And there's a real illusion sometimes I. think in most of our lives where we. don't realize that if we mess up in this. thing, as I think Jeff Bezos calls it,

this is probably. a type two decision where we can walk. back through the door. But it's this. sort of illusion that we're going to. really lose something great if we fail. that stops us taking that first step. And the other thing I was curious about. is this idea that pain is is a catalyst. for change. And do people need to get to. that point in their lives where they go. "God, I'm just so sick of this." to. change? Can someone change before they. get there? Unfortunately not. Sometimes the bottom. has to drop out before you realize what.

you really want and what you really you. know need to get in life. Uh I wish it. weren't that way. But um feeling like you're suffering and. that you need a change and that if you. go on this way bad things are going to. happen is the greatest motivator of all. because if you're. moderately discontented with your job, you're going to constantly be justifying. it to yourself going. uh it's all right. It'll get better. I'll get there'll be a new boss or I can. always move from this job to another.

company similar. You'll justify and. you'll never get out of it and the trap. will just close in on you and you'll. never get out of it, right? It's those. moments where she. damn it, I hate this. I can't go on. You know, I'm I'm heading to suicide. I'm heading to depressed. I'm heading to. drinking. I'm hitting bottom. I don't like where I'm going. It doesn't. have to be quite so drastic. I know I'm. exaggerating. But you have to feel a. degree of pain and frustration to say, "I need to make a major change in my.

life, you know?". The other thing I say is. in the same book you were quoting on the. in in about warfare, I have what's. called the death ground strategy. Where. you feel like. So, he's going into podcasting. And if. you go in with the attitude, "Well, if I fail, I'll just go scurrying. back to Stanford." That's a recipe for. failure in itself already. Your attitude. is already half-assed. You're already. half into it. You go to yourself, "I got.

to I'm cutting my ties at Stanford. If. this podcast doesn't work, I'm not going. back." It gives you the energy, the. motivation, the desire to actually make. it successful. But if you're always going through life. kind of with half measures, going, "Well, if I start this business and it. fails, I'll go back to living with my. parents and and I'll and I'll do this. other job." You're not going to put your. full energy into it. You're not going to. give all of yourself into it, and it's. probably going to fail.

It's really um. it's so true. Um it reminded me of something I was. reading in one of the psychology. journals about a study they did with. participants where they. asked them to do a puzzle and offered. them a delicious snack as a reward. And then in one group, they said, um. "This is the only way to get the snack. if you do this puzzle." And then in the. other group, they said, "By the way, the. same snack is also available in the. vending machine down the hall." And then. the people in the second group, where. they had a plan B, were less committed.

to doing the puzzle, spent less time. trying to solve it, and did worse in the. puzzle. And it's this idea that a plan B. actually psychologically does distract. you from your plan A. Yeah. We're we're animals, right? We have we. have a certain nature, which is what I. talk about in in human nature. And. our. our earliest ancestors, to go back to. something I was talking about, our brilliance or the power of our. species is. we are actually very physically weak.

compared to like chimpanzees and. cheetahs and lions, etc., etc. But we. use our brain and feeling the necessity, feeling that we're going to die unless. we don't solve these problems, right? If we don't use our brains, if we don't. create tools, if we don't work together. as a team, we're going to we're going to. we're going to die or we won't survive. Is what makes us inventive, it's what. makes us creative. It's almost like a barometric pressure. I like that's the metaphor I like to. use.

What's that? When you feel that pressure. inside of you and it's very heavy, like. in like weather that's very, you know, heavy and thick, you're motivated. You. feel it. I've got to get up in the. morning, I've got to do this, I've got. to accomplish this. When that pressure goes away and and you. don't feel any pressure in your life, you can do anything and there's no. consequences for it. You'll just waste. time, you'll waste years, you'll waste. months, you'll never accomplish. anything. You give somebody a deadline, right?

They'll accomplish in 2 months what. would take somebody 2 years to do. without a deadline. It's that necessity, it's that sense of there's a there's a. sword at my back, I've got to get it. done. It makes you get things done, it. gives you the energy. It's get rich or. die trying to quote somebody. You you talk about that in the. strategies um the book about the. strategies of war, the chapter four or. strategy number four is about creating a. sense of urgency and desperation. And.

when I was reading that, I was thinking, to be fair, I don't know any great. leader that isn't a little bit urgent. and a little bit desperate. And even if they feign that desperation. to galvanize people, there's something. about creating urgency and desperation. in your life that is an incredible. tailwind. Is there any practical ways that you. think the average person can create a a. the required sense of urgency in their. life so they can get things done? Well, it's kind of like a level here. So, you need challenges in your life.

That's what That's sort of what the. death ground is about. You're. challenged, you better rise up to it. If. the challenge is too great, if you're if. it like. I'm I'm 24 and I've never written a. book, but I'm going to write the best. book ever. You're You're going to fail. cuz it's too far above you. You're never. going to reach it. If it's too low, you're never going to. have the energy. It's too easy. It's not. going to motivate you. But, there's a. sweet spot. I don't know. I'm just, you. know, just drawing it here. Be like,

here. Where it's a challenge. It's above. what you're can do can do right now. It's not so far above that you can't. possibly do it. But, it's of enough of a challenge to. mean, "God, I better get my act. together. I better get the energy to get. to get there. I better, you know, change. what my habits are. I've got to get up. earlier. I've got to work harder. It's. not like I have to get up at 4:00 and. force myself and work out, etc. I can. get up at 6:00, 6:30, an hour earlier, and I'm going to meet this challenge. that's a little bit above my level.

That's a powerful way of motivating. yourself. You need challenges. You need. constant challenges in life or you're. going to or you're going to stagnate. It's just the law of nature. You talk about false purpose as well. Yeah. What is false purpose? And how do we know the difference? Your purpose in life. is something that you're born with. It's. like your destiny. This is what you were. meant to accomplish. This was what you. were meant to be what which you were. meant to do. And we were going through. We were talking about that.

in terms of your childhood, etc. Right? But, we humans are not born with that. purpose engraved in our heads. We don't. wake up when we're seven go, "That's my. purpose." If it were that easy, it would. be that simple, right? But, because we don't have any. direction, you know, animals don't wake. up in the morning, if they're not. nocturnal, go, "What am I going to do today? I can go here, I can hunt for this. animal, I'm going to hunt for that. animal. I can eat this No, they don't.

They operate by instinct. They don't. They have a purpose. It's It's. automatic, almost. Okay, we don't have that. We have to. find our purpose. And because it's so deep and it's so. important, that if we don't find it. through this authentic process I'm. talking about, we'll find it somewhere. else, because we need a purpose in life. We need something to live for. What will. that be? It will be drugs. It will be some kind. of cult that I have to join. It will be.

some kind of political movement, where I. can get out all of my anger and vent all. of my frustrations. You know, it'll be. on and on and on. It's something that. has. to do with who you are personally, but it's something that you can believe. in, and can give you a sense of purpose, but it's not really who you are. It's. like a drug. It's drugging you into. believing that you have a purpose, but it's not the real purpose that you. were born for. That's what I mean by. false purpose.

And when we find our purpose, if we are. able to and lucky enough to discover it, what's the variance in what someone's. capable of that's found their purpose. versus someone that hasn't, do you. think? Like, what's the difference in. how they show up, how they deliver, the. results they create, the impact they. have? When you find your purpose, it's like everything falls into place, right? You don't need to You don't need. to almost do anything. You'll find. whatever you need to find. Things good.

things will come to you. I know that sounds woo-woo, I know that. sounds mystical, but I definitely. believe it, right? And so, it's not like you have to. try so hard. Yes, you have to learn. skills. Yes, you have to apply yourself. Yes, you have to work hard, etc., etc., etc. But things just go so much more. smoothly when you have it. So, for. instance, one thing that happens when. you have a sense of purpose. and I hate to it's something that I feel. so I I know my narcissism is coming out.

again. Um. I know what I don't want. That's You don't know the power of that. You can't imagine how powerful that is. So, people come to me all the time with. Robert, we can make a lot of money doing. this. We could try this. We could Let's. make a TV show out of the 48 Laws of. Power. Let's do this. Let's do that. Let's make a game. I'm not interested. It's not my purpose. No, I don't want it. If I didn't have. that radar, I'd be spreading myself out. into eight different venues and I'd be,

you know, all of my energy would be. would be scattered. I wouldn't have that. focus and I'd probably end up being. pretty miserable because I would have. lost my purpose. But when you have a. sense of purpose, it's like No, I don't. want to do that. I don't want to do. that. I don't want to I want to do this. Yeah, it can be rigid. You have to be a. little bit flexible. So, if somebody. comes to me and goes Robert, what about. this? I'm open to it. That sounds. moderately interesting. All right, maybe. I'll try it, you know? And I And I do.

open things things like that. I'm going. to be doing In a month, I'm going to be. recording. a a French version of, you know, the. Masterclass. There's a French version of that. So, you know, I'm not so rigid where I can. only write books. I can try other things. because I can see value in it and it. interests me. It's a challenge. Being. able to say no. is so important and and is so. empowering. And that's what a sense of. purpose will give you to among other. things. There's a quote that says.

something like. distractions come dressed up as. opportunities. And to even know what a distraction is, you first must understand what your goal. and what your purpose is, or else it's. impossible to distinguish between a. distraction, Robert, go let's go start a. game. Or or an opportunity which is sounds. much more like that mastermind thing. And I think about this all the time. You know, the the more clear I am on the. goal and what my purpose is, the much. easier it is to understand what a. distraction is versus an opportunity, cuz they do look the same when they come. in to my inbox. Yes. Well, the other.

thing I do is I kind of game it out. So, somebody comes to me and they go. let's do a television show the 48 Laws. of Power. And believe me, I've been. through that about 85 times people. coming to me that and we have even. attempted it. But I go. I've worked in Hollywood, I've worked in. television before before I have my. books. I know the process. I know how miserable. it can be. I know how you have no power.

I'm a writer now where I write books. and I have all the power, I have all the. control. You go into Hollywood, you go into. television or film. 85 you know, 800 other people join in. and they all have their ideas and they. change this that and the other. You have. no power. And and it's meetings and meetings and. meetings and talk talk talk talk talk. I. game it out and I go. I don't want to get into that trap. I don't want to be spending a year. having meeting after meeting after. meeting hearing about this possibly. having it changed by this producer.

I game it out and I go, no, I don't want. to do it. Can you do that when you're. younger? Can a 21-year-old. No. Takes a lot of Takes a fair amount. of experience in life. Because when. you're 21, everything looks great and. exciting. Man, yeah, I'll do that. Why. not? Yeah, it'll be fun. I'll meet some. I'll meet some hot girls. I'll do this. that and the other. Great, you know, what cetera cetera. You know, you you you don't you don't. have that radar. You you everything. looks exciting and enticing. It takes. the pain, I keep going back to that, of.

things that you wasted your time in and. things that failed, things that you. didn't like to teach you. the ability to say no and to save your. energy for what you really love. Should. a young person just be saying yes to. everything? You know, the problem that we have is. everything is has to be this way or that. way. It has to be black or white and. it's not like that. It's kind of in. between. You can learn to dance in life. You. don't have to go this way or that way. You can kind of do both. So, the best.

advice I give people is. your 20s. are the best years of your life. Actually, I think the 30s are, but let's. just say for for argument's sake, your. 20s. You're young. You probably look. pretty good. You're healthy. You know, you've got all these things going on for. you. I want you to have some fun and I want. you to have adventures. I don't want you. to be 22 and go and get a job at Goldman. Sachs for the rest of your life. So, that you need fun, you need adventure,

you need some looseness. You know, you. want some experiences. But, it has to have some direction to. it. It can't just be I'm going to write. poetry. I'm going to do rock and roll. I'm going to go and learn chemistry. I'm. going to, you know, become, you know, this that and the other. No connection. at all between all of these things. Just. trying everything for the sake of. novelty. That's a recipe for not being successful. because what you wanted to happen is. you're 30 years old now. You've let your. 20s are behind you. It's usually a time.

of reckoning where you go, "Shit, I'm not so young anymore. Okay, you. know, I'm getting older. All right, I've had my fun. I've had. adventure. I'm ready for something. serious and I've learned some real. skills in life. I've For me personally, I learned how to write. Um or whatever. it is. You didn't just go try 80. different things. You you you kind of. had four or five that you did you you. experimented with. All right, now I know. what I love. Now I can go down that. path.

And in mastery. I often tell the story to people of one. of the masters I interviewed was Paul. Graham who is the man who started Y. Combinator. You probably heard of Y. Combinator. He was somebody who got into AI. when he was like 18 19 years old. He was. like at MIT, I believe. Right? Back in. the late 70s when nobody was even. thinking about it. Okay? He was a hacker. Cuz his father was was a scientist who. had computers back in the 70s and he.

learned how to hack early on. Okay? So he went down the process of. going into academia, of. of going into programs of compu- com-. computer programming, etc. etc. And he was on a track just like Huberman. at MIT to become a professor, to become. proficient in and he hated it. It was soul-sucking. He didn't like the. politics. He didn't like dealing with. the people. He didn't like academia. So. he quit. and he became a painter.

Because that's he loved design and he. loved visuals. He comes back to New. York. He's living in a loft. He's painting. He's He's happy and he's not making any. money. And then he hears an advertisement on. the radio. for I I think it was maybe Netscape or. one of the earliest um you know. uh internet whatever you call them. And. they're saying the future in in in for. computers is being able to sell buy and. sell products on the internet.

He ends up creating the first I think. one of the prototype for all the things. that we have now. Yahoo ended up buying it for like $5. million. And then the let rest is history. He spent his 20s trying something out, learning real skills. He went somewhere. else, learning something that he loved, and then he's 30 and he combines the two. together. And he's he's a classic example because. he he gets very bored easily. So, he Y Combinator is worth billions of.

dollars, extremely successful, he sells. it and gets into something else cuz he. likes writing, etc. He's always He's. kind of a prototype for a lot of what. we're talking about. We've spoken a lot about self-awareness. and self and all those kinds of things. What about other people? You know, the only thing that seems to stand in. the way of all of our goals in life are. other people. So, if I if I want to become. exceptional at understanding the human. nature of other people and using it in. my favor, where do I start there? What are the the.

sort of foundations of being great at. using other people's human nature to my. advantage? That sounds very narcissistic. and very. awful, but it's. It's It is what it is. Part of it is. what it is, exactly. People, as I said, the main mistake we. make in dealing with other people, and. it's and it's a common mistake that I. make as well, is we take the appearances. for reality. We take their masks for how they appear. to us, for their politeness, for their.

smiles, for their saying, "Oh, I loved. you," etc., for the reality. And we have to learn. that to look behind people's masks. We. have to learn what's really really going. on behind them. And we have to learn some basics about. human nature. People like to believe that they're. essentially good, you know, saintly, virtuous, however you. want to do it. People want to believe. that they're intelligent, they're You. never want to feel like, "I'm not. stupid. I'm intelligent." And the other.

third thing is that they're that they're. willpower, that they're in control of. their lives, they do things because they. decided to do it. To tell to make people feel insecure. about their intelligence, right? To make. them feel like they're not moral or. they're not good. To make them feel like. they do things not because they choose. to it because they were forced to or. because they they're not aware of. themselves. They hate that. They're going to hate. you. They're going to resent you. They're going to resist you. Knowing some basics about people like.

that gives you the power to use that for. influence, for persuasion, okay? Understanding envy in the human world. and on social media envy is just an is. like a nuclear bomb. It's just exploded. our tendency to feel envy, to compare. ourselves to other people. You've got to use that for power. There's great power in that in a. marketing publicity sense, virality, what getting other people to be. interested in what other people are.

doing. That's how things sell. themselves. If you try and tell people. what they should buy as opposed to look. at what other people are doing. I want. to join in on that, right? Knowing about. these basic qualities in human nature, about how we like to compare ourselves, how we have these certain opinions about. ourselves, etc., etc. Gives you all of this power. to take that human nature and use it for. whatever purposes you want for good or. unfortunately some people use it for. bad.

Do we have to lie to be successful? And I say this because. through reading some of your work, I I. heard sentences such as you should keep. your true intentions hidden in social. situations. Um you say a lot about like. kind of cloaking yourself in various. ways. You talk about showing up as an. actor. That sometimes we do need to show up as. an actor in our lives. So, in order to. be truly successful, I know it's a. little bit of a difficult question, but do we have to lie? Look, Steven, being a human being means. we lie.

Right? The moment you open your mouth. and you speak, you are essentially not telling the. truth. You know what doesn't lie? Body language. Nonverbal communication. The way you smile, the look in your. eyes, you can't lie about that. But children, 3 or 4 years old, are already learning to craft what they. say to Mommy or Daddy to get what they. want. They're very clever, they're very. strategic, right? They know that if they if they say that.

they what they exactly want, they won't. get it. They learn to kind of whine and. complain and put a certain tone in their. voice and to be an actor. A social animal like we are, we are. actors in life. Get over this idea about guilting about. about it. I'm so sick of that. We are. actors. We are descended from. chimpanzees. Chimpanzees are consummate. actors. Read the literature on that. They know how to deceive incredibly well.

and they don't even have language to. deceive, right? So, we are actors. The moment you go out. in the public, you're not telling. people, "Oh, you're fat, you're ugly, your writing sucks, you da da da da da. da da, I don't like what you're. wearing." You never do that. You're an. actor. When you see your father, you act a. certain way. When you see a little kid, you act a certain way. When you see a. little kitty cat, you have a certain. tone in your voice. When you deal with.

your boss, the person who pays for the. for your podcast, I don't know if there. is such a person, you wear your act a. different way. You're constantly. changing how who you are and how you. act. One moment you're Robert De Niro, the next moment you're I don't know what. other actor you are, but you you're. changing your roles depending on who. you're dealing with. I'm so tired of people not recognizing. this fact that we are all actors, that. we are constantly deceiving. Yes, there. are differences, there are qualities of.

lying. You know, I understand that. There's. Donald Trump lying and there's the lying. of the everyday white lies in which we. have to say certain things to get ahead. So, there. are degrees. I understand that. And some. lying can be very harmful and and very. counterproductive in the end. But, the moment you enter the world and. the moment you open your mouth, you are. in some ways already an actor and you. are already using forms of deception.

Why can't we be our true selves? Because it would irritate uh people. Because it would grate. You know? I don't know about you, but I appreciate. politeness. Right? I go somewhere and I know. someone's being polite. I know that. they're not necessarily meaning it, but it's nice. Right? It's kind of smooth. It kind of. makes everything sort of smooth. If people weren't polite, it'd all be. grating and like two pieces of metal. constantly hitting each other. You'd be.

so annoying, you'd want to kill yourself. or you'd want to kill people. You'd. become kill a murderer. You know? Social life depends on that kind of. smoothness those interactions. So, we need that to some degree. If we. were just always telling people what we. really thought, our our world would collapse tomorrow. What about showing our weakness? I've. got this quote from you that says, "If you are weak and ask for little, little is what you will get. But, if you.

act strong, making firm, even outrageous demands, you will create the opposite impression. People will think that you are confident. and that it must be based on something. real. You will earn their respect, which in turn will translate to real. leverage.". Well, it's it's about certain. situations. So, I don't want you to apply that idea. to everything in life. And some people. make the mistake when they read the 48.

Laws of Power, they think, "Well, I'm. going to use that everywhere." No, it applies to certain situations. So, let's say you're negotiating. And I know I dealt with this myself. I'm. actually. a fairly timid person by nature, but. I've learned to cultivate the opposite. So, if you're negotiating a price for. what you want for your time, for your. services, and you're not very confident, and you. kind of ask for a little, that's what. you're going to get because people. aren't going to they're assuming that.

you're that you're not really up to the. task. You say, "Uh all right, $20,000 is. enough." That's what they'll give you. But, if you raise your price high, and. you say it with the right voice, and you. believe in it, they're going to go, "Wow, that person is is confident." And. if they turn you down, that's fine. because somebody else will give you that. price. If you you set your own value by what. you believe about yourself. If you think. that you're worthless, if you're not very good at it, other.

people pick that up. And when you as you. were talking, I was thinking about um. Adam Neumann from WeWork, and this. conversation I heard with him and the. founder of SoftBank in the back of a. taxi where Adam Neumann's asking for a. billion, and then the owner of SoftBank, this very eccentric Chinese, very rich. Asian man goes, "Do you know what, Adam? The only problem with you. is that you're not ambitious enough.". Ah. And he writes him a check, I. believe, for like five or 10 billion. dollars in the back of this taxi after. like something like 12 minutes of being.

with him. And I always thought about. that and thought, "Jesus, what if I just. started asking life for way more? If I. just multiplied all of these emails that. I send and requests I make by 10, what would happen to my life over the. course of 10 years?" Well, yeah, and. probably you probably would have gotten. a lot more than you got. without asking for that. Um. Yeah, because. we are creatures that as I said before. we look at the appearances of things.

Look, it's it's very very easy metaphor. here. You go into a social situation like a. party. and you go up to somebody who's kind of. nervous and insecure and anxious. And. I'm not criticizing that because we all. have insecurities. I have many of them. myself. But you go up to somebody like. that. and it makes you feel kind of nervous. and insecure. Right? And you're kind of fumbling for. words and it kind of goes a bit of. awkwardness happens.

Reverse that and you go up to somebody. else and they're kind of confident. They. look you in the eye. You know, their voice is strong, their. body language is strong. They connect to. you. Whoa, you think it brings you out that. part of you was like that. You might be. intimidated, but it also might bring out. your own kind of confidence. So. I remember. being around 50 Cent. who's a very charismatic, confident to. the point of ridiculousness.

And it was very infectious. I felt that. way after being around him for a couple. hours. I was with him for several. months. It rubbed off on me, right? We. have these kind of viral contagious. effects by people. So if you project. strength and confidence. you know, and I understand it's a little. different for women which is. an interesting subject because sometimes. projecting that for a woman. will rub the wrong way because people. will think that.

and it's terrible quality thing about us. that that women are judged by a. different standard where that will seem. like they're a [ __ ] or something like. that. So I understand there are nuances. here and that the game is different for. women as it is for people of other. ethnicities as well, you know? So, it's. not just one way or the other. But, to the degree. that even for the woman that you have. this air of confidence, that you believe. in what you're doing, that you believe. you're worth it,

it projects itself to other people. You. don't have to scream and shout, and you. don't have to demand $10 billion. But, if you feel confident, if you feel. you're worth this amount of money, it'll. project outward to other people. Body. language. Yeah. Let's talk about that. Does it You know, you said earlier it's. one of the things we can't lie about. Is there anything that you still look. for in today when you're trying to read. someone? Their body language. Are there. certain cues? Is there postures or Well,

you know, you you got to. in reading nonverbal communication, it's. a different form of intelligence. It's. not algorithms, it's not. formulaic. It's human, it's emotional, it's empathetic. It's a reading without. words. It's a tuning yourself to other. people. So, I attune myself to people's. emotions, to the vibe that they give off. in an overall sense. A gestalt is one. thing that I like to do. So, if I had to.

give it a word, I would say anxious. Or, I would have to say. outgoing and extroverted. Or, I would. have to say impatient or whatever. There's an energy that kind of defines. them. It's a word, and that word is not. precise, but there is an overall feel. that I get from a person. And then, I'm. always looking at specifics. It's not like I'm sitting there. consciously in my head going through a. checklist. I'm just feeling certain.

things. And I'm feeling. that the eyes are kind of dead. They're not engaging with me. And you can't put that into words, but. you know the feeling. So, when someone's. looking at you, but they're not really. looking at you, you know what that feels. like, don't you? Mhm. And a lot of. psychopathic people, a lot of. narcissists, do that. So, part of their. face pretends to be interested in you.

They are looking at you in the eye, but. they're not really looking at you. They're thinking of something else. They're seeing in you what they can get. out of you. They're seeing you as an. object, right? Eyes are hard to lie. They tell you. something. Now, actors. very. skilled actors can kind of create some. of these impressions, but one thing that. they can't fake is the tone in their. voice. And actors will tell you that it's the. hardest thing to actually consciously. control.

So, the voice of a person tells you a. lot about their confidence levels, tells. you a lot about. you know, how. just about their general emotional tone, about their character, about who they. are. It's very difficult to fake. And when it's hesitant, when it's. like stammering, when it's not, you. know, you can kind of sense something. from people's voice, and it's very hard. to fake. And then the smile, the smile.

tells you a hundred different things if. you know how to read it. There's the. authentic smile, which I'm not going to fake right now, but I just. it lights up the whole face, you know? Like you really feel joy. You can't you don't you can't fake it. Your eyes go up, your cheeks go up, everything kind of connects together, right? The fake smile. you know. Yeah. We've all seen the fake smile. Just when the mouth goes up and the rest. of the face doesn't bother. Steven, I.

really like you. You're really. wonderful. You know? Most of the time most smiles are fake, but you can kind of when you see the. genuine smile and you go, that's what. caused the genuine smile, you should. become aware of that. And then body. language tells you a lot like. is somebody when they're talking to you. and you're standing up at a at a party. is their body kind of facing another. direction while they're talking to you? Are they kind of looking out there way.

while they're talking to you? That means. they're not really interested in you. They're not really engaged in you, right? Also. when you catch people by surprise and. they don't have the time to put on a. fake smile. I often tell people to do. this. Like. there's somebody in your office. and you don't know whether they're a. snake or whether they're actually. genuinely your friend but you suspect go. either way. You kind of approach them from an angle, right?

And you surprise them and you come up to. them and you go, they look at you and. for a second you detect what we call a. micro expression of. of disdain and then they put on the. smile. That micro expression. which scientists psychologists have. studied last for like. less than a second, much less than a. second. You have to be able to read it. but it reveals whether they actually. like you or they're totally false. They. can't fake it. So, if you come to. straight on they'll oh, hi Stephen. I.

love it. Great to see you. They come to. you. Oh, they they kind of pretend then. they try and act and you you can get. clues like that. There's so many ways to read body. language. It's such a fascinating. subject. I could go on for hours about. it. How important is it? You know, you're talking about colleagues and team. members there and earlier you said that. people are contagious. How important do. you think it is to the. success of our lives and I paused there. because success means it's a personal. thing, it's a professional thing.

to surround ourselves with. the right group of people and to be. intentional about that. It's very. important. Um. I have a chapter in Excuse me, in the 48. Laws of Power about infection. And um I think it's an experience many. of us have had. where you're around somebody. who seems at first glance to be very. interesting. And they they they become your friend, maybe.

They're very dramatic. And they have all these stories to tell. And they seem almost slightly larger. than life. And you engage with them. And then you become friends. And then slowly slowly slowly it becomes. clear. that that they're a little bit nuts, right? They're always talking about how. this person screwed them, how that. person screwed them, how this. boyfriend or girlfriend was so awful and. so nasty. You going to re- You going to.

realize. is this true or is it maybe they're that. the prob- they are the problem. But now. that you're a friend and now you're. emotionally attached to them and now. they have room to play all these kind of. games on you and all of their drama. starts infecting you. And it's like, god damn it, I want to. get away from this person, but I can't. They've infected you with their negative. energy and it gets under your skin. And so. uh you have to avoid people like that. You have to read before you get involved. with them that they are a drama queen or.

a drama king cuz there just as many men. out there who have this quality. You have to see that they are. that they play the victim of all of. everybody else, but actually they kind. of bring it on to themself. Some people. are genuinely unfortunate. Bad things. have happened to them and it's not their. fault. I'm never saying it's a misconception. about that chapter. that you should avoid everybody who's. unfortunate. There are people and a lot. of people out there whose circumstances.

have put made them, you know, in this. this. what's going on. It's not their fault, right? But there are other people you. have to recognize that the bad things. that happened to them are things that. they have brought on because they have. this infecting power. It comes from deep. insecurity. You don't want them in your. life. Being around insecure people will make. you insecure. Being around confident people. who kind of know what they're doing, who've got their act together, who are.

trying to make things and accomplish. things, because there's so many people. out there who talk and talk and talk but. never do anything. Being around people who do things, who. get things done, who've made a business, who've made this, that, or the other, they're gold to be around cuz they'll. infect you with their positive energy. Frenemies. Yeah. Do we all have frenemies and how do we. spot frenemies? Well, hopefully we all don't have them. But in the laws of human nature and in.

several of my books I talk about the. phenomenon of envy, which is very, very. powerful human trait. It has roots, very ancient roots. We. know that in hunter-gatherer societies. from thousands of years ago, envy was a. real problem. And so they created all. kinds of rituals to avoid envy. Where. the moment somebody in a tribe received. a gift, they had to give it to other. members so they wouldn't face envy. because facing envy you could be. murdered for it. So you learned all.

these rituals and we've noticed that. chimpanzees feel envy. You give someone. of the higher-up chimps cuz they're very. hierarchical a grape and all of a sudden. all the other chimps are very wanting. that grape as well and they feel envy. and etc. etc. So it's an extremely human. emotion. The thing that we don't realize though. that the people most likely to feel. envy, first of all, we all feel envy. We're all comparing ourselves to other. people. I feel it all the time.

Right now, I envy Ryan Holiday because. he's. you know, some 30 years younger. He's. sold so many books. You know, he's got. all this great stuff. I I know I know. what envy is like. I feel it. We all. feel small degrees of envy. But there are people I call it passive. envy. But active envy means people act. on it. They do something to hurt you. They sabotage you in some way. Frenemies are the classic scenario. So.

somebody. who feels envious of you. end up befriending you. And consciously, they may not be even. aware of that. They think, well, I would. do want to like them. But unconsciously, they feel envy. They think that you have. success that you don't necessarily that. they deserve. That you have what they. want, right? They become your friend. And they they charm you, etc., etc. And. then lo and behold, you start noticing. all kinds of behavior that's very ugly,

that you weren't expecting cuz you're. they're your friend. They start saying. [ __ ] comments that get under your skin. that make you feel insecure. They take things from you. They act in. ways that are hurtful. But because. they're your friend, your first instinct. is to blame yourself. Well, maybe it's my fault that they've. done this. Maybe I'm actually to blame. for what for what they're saying, etc., etc. So I believe. behind the frenemies phenomenon is this.

this phenomena of envy where the person. secretly wants what you have and they're. becoming your friends so that they can. wound you. And what's best to do is to recognize. that. And one common sign of a frenemy, of somebody who's befriending you out of. envy is they're in a rush to be your. friend. Normally, we like to take it a little bit slow. We. just don't let anybody into our lives. We like to vet them a little bit.

beforehand, right? We don't trust. everybody. But the person who feels envy is like, "I love you. You're fantastic. I want to. be your friend. We got to hang out. Let's go out for dinner the next night.". etc. etc. They're in a hurry. That's a. sign that something else is going on. because that's not natural. What about. when friends become frenemies? Because sometimes through the process of. us changing, Yes. you might inspire that envy. Yes, like your status changes. We've all. had to deal with that. I've had to deal.

with that as well. You have success. and you you came from a background where. you where where you weren't so. successful and your friends are still. there. and they envy you and they're not very. nice to you. And uh. you know, it's a it's not a good quality. and I've I've I've I've understand the. quality. I understand where it comes. from. And I've I've wrote about it in human. nature. Where we're all aware. of the of the of the what we call. Schadenfreude. Schadenfreude means you.

take pleasure in other people's pain. So, you hear a friend. didn't get the job that they wanted to. get. and you go, "Oh, I'm sorry." But deep. down inside you're kind of. kind of happy. You know, and we all go. through that, right? The opposite is Mitfreude. It's an. expression that Nietzsche coined, which. means you feel joy for other people. I like to try and. cultivate some of the higher qualities.

in life. So, if something good happens. to somebody, I've My first thing is I might feel a. twinge of envy, but then I go, "It's. great for them." I'm actually very. happy. I'm excited. I share their joy in. what has happened, right? But it's not. natural. So when somebody that you know. and you've known for a long time has. success in life, your first thing is to be. They didn't deserve it. They kind of. cheated their way to it. Okay, as we talked about in the very. beginning, you confront that ugly.

emotion yourself and you go, "That's not. who I want to be." And you go, "I'm. going to make myself feel the opposite. I'm going to make myself feel happy for. their success.". It's not natural and most people don't. go through that and I know personally. from people I knew before. I had any success in life. They're the ones that give me the fewest. amount of compliments for my books. They never read my books in the first. place. They're very spare with their. with what they say. They've got a.

pinched look on their face. Whereas people I've never met before in. my life give me all kinds of. compliments. Why is that? Because they're envious. They're upset. Are you. Are you threatening them? Because they. see themselves. like you because they knew you and you. were you're from where they were from, so you're even more threatening. You're. holding up a mirror to them in a way. that makes them feel even more. uncomfortable. Well, they're not going to feel that. way. So what people will go through in. that sense is. and this is how I I I I I think it.

through. "Oh, Robert sold himself out.". "He wrote a book that's evil, that's. nasty, that's manipulative. I didn't. think he was like that. I thought he was. this nice person.". "Oh, I don't like his book, it's ugly.". They'll go through that process. They'll. stay my friend because we've had years. and years. together. I was very, very common, at. least I know that. They go through They. do that with my books, even though my. later books aren't like The 48 Laws of. Power. They still have it ingrained that. this guy who who used to be so sweet and.

nice wrote these nasty, evil, manipulative, Machiavellian books. He. sold out. What is it at the heart of the. 48 Laws of Power that some people. are. triggered by? Like what is the What What was the. single most triggering concept or the. most um controversial or the concept. that people just had a surface level. allergic reaction to on site? Without even really reading it, they. just Oh, they don't know. Yeah, they.

read the back of the book. They read the. names of the laws and they go, "Oh, that's. That's ugly.". And a lot of times. they've had to deal with ugly people in. their lives. And so that's when I see I. see the authentic disgust reaction. I. understand it. That they had to deal. with someone who's very manipulative. And they find it disgusting. Of course, when I get to have a rational. discussion with them and I calm down. their emotional reaction, I said,

"Look, if you had The 48 Laws of Power. before this person manipulated you, they. would have never been able to manipulate. you. That book is the best defense you. could ever have in your life. It's like. a shield. Once you've read it, you know. all the tricks people are playing on. you, right? They know they're posing as. a friend and acting like a spy, right? They're concealing their intentions. You. know, etc. etc. etc. It's showing you. all of these tricks.". Okay, but that's when they calm down and. I'm able to say that. But. the idea. that we're not angels,

that we don't all have the best. intentions in life, that I'm writing a manual, they think, for how to manipulate, how to deceive, how to con people, triggers people very. much. A lot of people. who've who've who've suffered in life, who've had a lot of pain, understand that there's irony in the. book. They don't read it the same way. They read it knowing, "Yeah, I've had. this happen. This is what people are.

like. I'm okay with that. I'm cool with. it. And I must say. I don't know if this will come off. wrong, but a lot of the readers who. responded most positively to the 48 Laws. of Power early on were. African-Americans, people like 50, people in the hip-hop business, etc. They didn't have any illusions. about human nature, about how good we. are, because they've seen this side all. throughout their lives, right? 50 said. when he got into the record business,

he was shocked at how political people. were, how manipulative they were. So, they weren't having that same reaction. They weren't having the guilty reaction. like. oh, that I don't want to read about. that. Why do we Why do we even have to. discuss that? That's not That's not. positive. That's not helpful. That's I. think a lot of what triggered people. It's funny cuz I was speaking to a CIA. agent recently, and he said something at. the end of our conversation to me. He. said, "You know, one of the things I've. come to learn from being in the CIA is. that I no longer believe that.

equality is possible.". And he he said. Equality. Equality. Yeah. Because that's just not the way that the. human world works, and we all pretend we. want equality. We all pretend we want. everyone to be equal. But if you look at. every game we play, whether we're. politicians or we're business people or. whatever, it's all about hierarchies and. power and getting ahead. Even the the. sheer nature of being a politician is. campaigning to get into a position of, you know, objective power. And I wanted wanted to know what you.

thought about that. Well, I mean, there's some truth to it in the sense of. there's something in our nature that is. hierarchical, that has deep roots in us. But. I do believe in one form of equality, um. and that is. everybody at their birth has the. possibility. for following the path that I talk about. in mastery, for being great, for. fulfilling their destiny, for being the. unique individual that they are at. birth.

So, everybody is born with a. DNA that will never be replicated in the. past or in the future, right? There is a. uniqueness about every person. And And. there's a uniqueness about your parents, about your background, about your early. years, right? And that uniqueness is a seed. that if you plant if you cultivate it. and you and you use it and you know your. purpose and you you mine it for power, in in mastery, I interviewed one of the. master I interviewed was a woman named.

Temple Grandin, who was born with severe autism. At the age of two, she was about to be. committed to a hospital for the rest of. her life. She was She was like. almost like in a walking coma. So, for some reason, they got her a. teacher to teach her language. and she started emerging a little bit. And then slowly she blossomed. and she realized because it was. something common to a lot of autistic. people that she had an incredible.

connection to animals. A lot of autistic people have that. She couldn't connect to people. They. were so tricky and deceptive. She She. didn't know how to deal with them, but. animals. give her a horse, a dog, a cow, she felt like she was one of them. She ended up following that path and. becoming a high-level. animal behavioral scientist who um she. was born with autism, about to be committed for a hospital, and yet she achieved incredible success.

in life as a scientist. I do honestly, and I'm not faking, I do. honestly believe that everyone has that. potential. But it it's not equal in the outcomes of. that. There are a lot of people The. majority people don't follow that path, but I do believe everybody has that. potential. Is that potential. like objective greatness or is it our. own subjective greatness? I. I can become the greatest version of.

Steven. Or do you believe that everyone. could become great in the context of, you know, the very best in the world like, you. know, Steve Jobs or. No, they're not You don't have to be the. very best in in the world. I mean, I. uh when I when Austerity came out, we. would. uh the New York Times wanted to do a. story about my house in the home. section. Okay, well, why? But all right. I never get any publicity from. mainstream media. So, okay, fine. So, I had to quickly upgrade my house.

cuz they were going to come over with. photo photographers. And we got a man over to do the tile. work on my patio, which looked like. hell. And. I I told people this guy was a true. master. He wasn't like. making six figures. Nobody would ever. write an article about him. He will die and no one will ever know. that. But I could see in the quiet. quality and how well he understood and. the care that he took in it and how much.

he enjoyed, you know, creating a beautiful effect. with tile work, that he was a master. It doesn't have to be the best ever. You. don't have to be famous and successful. There are grades of this. There are. degrees of it. Some people. it's just being a great parent. They're very social. They're very. empathetic. And they're not maybe going. to become. a extremely successful finance person, but they're really good at raising their. children and they put to put a lot of.

effort and care into it. That's. fantastic. You don't have to be. famous. You don't have to be Steve Jobs. There are levels of it, right? But the. sense of this was what I was meant to. accomplish and I'm I'm following it and. I'm happy with I do. I feel fulfilled by. my work, and I can go on doing it. I. take it seriously. I care about it. I do believe that that anybody can have. that level of power in their life. I.

think I struggle with that, if I'm being. honest, on a personal level. I struggle with. um. enough being enough. And also, I think I've grown up in the. generation where there's so much. comparison everywhere we look, when we. open up our phones and Instagram, that. you kind of always are led to believe. that you're not quite there yet. Now, I've contended with the idea that maybe. that's a good thing, because it drives. you forward. It's that pressure you. described. It's that creates that. urgency, that desperation. So, maybe I. should never believe I'm there yet. But.

then also, I wonder, am I going to defer. happiness off into the future because I. think it's behind some kind of. accomplishment or job title or, you know, success in my life. And it, you know, when I hear about that tiler, I go, that person that was tiling your. patio, I'm really jealous, because they sound content with much. less than would make me content. What is the correct correct answer? Is. it to be the happy tiler who's tiling.

the patio, or is it to be the. um impatient. Steve Jobs that's striving for the. personal computer? Well, it depends on who you are. We're. all individuals. We all have our our. unique energies. It's the fact that you. engage, you love that you're emotionally. connected to it, that it gives you a. sense of fulfillment, that you're not. looking over your shoulder, oh, I I. could be doing this instead. I'm fine with that. It doesn't have to.

be the Steve Jobs who's continually. dissatisfied, who's Faustian, who always. has to have more. I'm not against that, either. I don't know why we have to be. so judgmental. If people are following. the path and they are in love with what. they do and they have a genuine. connection to it, I'm not going to judge. because they're not famous or because. they're not trying to be the greatest, the Michael Jordan of tiling or. whatever, etc. I think it's fine. And.

you, you're not happy. You want to You. want to crush it. You want to be have. the number one podcast. That's fine as. well. Why can't we have. you know, that kind of diversity in our. world? The most important thing for both. those types of people, the the people. that have that sort of insatiable sense. of ambition, but also the people that. are content with whatever they're doing. in their lives. From what I heard there is they both. love what they're doing. Uh and they both have those core. components that you described earlier.

Like they both feel the challenge in. their work still. And that challenge. might be, okay, I'm going to do a bigger. patio today or it might be I'm going to. launch a billion-dollar business. tomorrow. For someone else. And it's really about those core. components. of like challenge, meaning, purpose. Yeah. Yeah, because. what you don't want is you don't want to. be. in your 50s, in your 60s facing death. You know, cuz your days are numbered. Who knows how long you're going to live.

And you're going to go. damn it, I could have done something. with my life. When I was a child, I had these dreams. I thought I was going to be really great. at it. And I never realized it. I went. off on these other paths. I was lost. I thought I was happy, but but I never. really. fulfilled any of those childhood dreams. or those fantasies. You know, it's a. terrible, terrible feeling and I want. people to avoid that. As long as it's. something that engages you, that's. connected to that child that you were,

it's something that you love and that. you you can create these challenges for. you. Is death a motivator for you? Well, um it certainly is now. You know, cuz um. my days are are literally numbered. You. reach a certain age and you know, you. can literally count the numbers of the. days that might be left to you. And I. nearly died several years ago with my. stroke. Came this close to dying.

You know, I was driving my car. and if my wife hadn't suddenly. seen something, I wouldn't be talking to. you here right now. Either I would have crashed and died or. I would have had such bad brain damage. that I'd be a vegetable. So, I know about death. I feel it in my. body. Every day I wake up. I do my morning meditation. I'm aware. there's a practice that I have in my. meditation where.

this could be my last thought. I could. die. 10 seconds from now. What do I want in my head in those last. seconds? Do I want to have some petty. little thought about somebody who did. this or said that? Or do I want to have. something else greater in my head? I'm. constantly aware of my mortality. And. with the book that I'm writing, it's. always it's always in my mind because. frankly, I'm aware that I might die before I. finish the book. So, now I've written.

2/3 of it. If I die tomorrow, the book. can be published. And I'd say okay, I. can live with that. But uh you know, I'm in a hurry to get. it done because I know it could happen. at any moment. You know, and it almost happened to me. So, I'm continually aware of it, but not in. a bad sense. In a way of. it kind of makes gives meaning to my. life. It makes me aware. of how, you know, valuable each moment.

is and how things that everybody. I look out my window, I see people doing. things that I can't do anymore. And I go, they take it all for granted. They walk around unaware. of their mortality, of how their body. could break down at any day now. I'm aware of it. So, I'm not going to. feel envy because I my mind is at a. different level. I'm aware of the of the. ephemeral nature of life and it makes.

everything kind of beautiful to me. Makes me appreciate everything around. I. don't mean to be too. sacarine about this cuz it could come. off that way because there is a dark. side to it and I definitely. in my dreams and in my thoughts, I have. a lot of that darkness. But, I believe the awareness of death. is is a beautiful, beautiful thing. It's. It's It's It's It makes everything. intense and makes everything a glow.

With that awareness, if you were my age, I've just turned 31. What? You're a kid. Jesus Christ, man. I hate you. I was 31, I was the biggest loser and. it's amazing. If I could transplant. that awareness from your head to my head. that you've got from the life you've. lived, but also from that stroke. incident and the perspective of your.

mortality that it gave you and the. ephemerality of life that it showed you, how would you think I would live my life. differently? How would you have lived your life. differently when you were 31? Uh, you know, I I make a point of I. never go through that exercise because. I believe in something called amor fati, which means love of your fate. Everything happened for a purpose. I wouldn't have done anything. differently if I had to go back because. it all led to the right things. So, if. I'd been in a hurry when I was 22 to be.

successful as a writer, I would have. never been able to write the books that. I wrote. Would have all gone askew. Who. knows where I would have ended up. I'm. very, very happy with I don't regret. anything. But, if you're young, what often happens. is. because your life the pattern of your. life, if you think of it as a weaving, is only like for you is only like a. third woven, right? For me, it's like. 2/3 woven, so I can see all of these. patterns that you can't see in your.

life. But, at your stage, you know, you tend to think. I've got all of this time ahead of me. I'm so young. I've I can do this. I can. I can go travel here. I can do this. business and that business, et cetera, et don't feel that sense of urgency. You. don't realize that tomorrow you could be. hit by a car. Tomorrow, you could. suddenly be diagnosed with cancer. People are dying now in their 30s and. 40s. I read. Unfortunately, when you get older, a bad. habit is you start reading the obituary.

pages. I don't know why. Um, and you will start reading about. people a lot of people who are in their. 40s and 50s are dying left, right, and. center in today for various reasons. It can happen. And what it does to you. is it says. I only have so much time. I wanted to accomplish this one thing. that I've been putting off. Okay, you wrote your book. Maybe there's. something else that you've always wanted. to do, but you have never done. And. you're kind of putting it off.

A sense of urgency, a sense that your. time is relatively short. is a good thing. The other thing is, it. makes, as I said, it makes everything a. little more intense, a little more aglow. is the word I like to use. So, I used to swim. like 3 days a week. And I would swim long distances, and I. loved it. It was my greatest therapy. I just love getting out of my head and.

just going being in the water, okay? But I never appreciated it until now. when I can't do it. So, I want you to appreciate you going. to the gym. having your health to being able to do. these things. Don't look at it like take. it for granted. And it pisses me off. that young people take all this stuff. for granted. They think that I'm. privileged because I have this success. story. No, when you're young, you have. all these privileges. You have your. health. You have other things that are. going to could be taken away from you.

Don't take for granted these things in. your life that you have that are not. going to last forever. Think in those. terms and think of of how more intense. everything around you becomes when you. have that mindset. One of the things I. think I worry that I take for granted is. my. romantic relationship with my partner. And you know, hearing your story of of. being in that car that day, it's. literally evident that your romantic. partner can save your life.

She did. And um yeah, uh. you know, we've been together for a. while. I'm not going to say how many. years because she doesn't like hearing. that. Cuz. um. so, you know, we have a a. a deep rich past. And it and it's a wonderful thing. And. she saved my life. And saving someone's. life. man, it really is important really means. a lot. It kind of changes things. And in my book that I'm writing now, I wrote a chapter on love, which is.

something I've never written about, obviously. Written about seduction, etc. But I've never written about love. And I. wrote about. the ins the incredible the sublime. quality that you can have when you allow. yourself to go deeper and deeper and. deeper into that falling process where. you get rid of your your ego, you get. rid of your defenses, you get rid of all. the resistance, and you just let. yourself fall, fall, fall, fall, fall, and you connect to someone on that. deeper, deeper level.

It's as I say, it's it's a chapter on. the sublime because it is a very sublime. experience. And the reason I wrote it is I feel like. people. are missing that now. because there's so. they don't want to be vulnerable. They don't want any pain. And falling for another person. and letting go of your defenses opens. you up to pain. Right? And we just want to we don't want. to experience that. We want to be. invulnerable.

And it's like cutting off all the. richest experiences in life. And so I wrote that chapter addressing. that and say, "Let go of your defenses. Let go of your resistance. Let yourself. go into that process of falling. Let. feel what it feels like to have your ego. dissolved in the presence of another. person and care more about them than you. care about yourself.". You mentioned a second ago. dark thoughts and dark dreams.

We all have dark thoughts. Our dark. thoughts are our own. How do you go about dealing with dark. thoughts and what are those dark. thoughts that you're able to share? Well, you know, um. in my dreams. I'll be doing all kinds of weird things. Uh a lot of times there'll be guilt. Like, "Did I actually murder that person? Are. the police actually after me? Damn it, what's going to happen? What's.

going to happen to my reputation?" Then. I wake up. You know? So all that kind of stuff. happens. But also. doubts about myself and depression and. about. I've I've dealt my whole life with. feelings of like not being. very worthy. Like even doubting my success. Doubting. that my work is any good. Doubting that I deserve it. I had a you know a lot of periods in my.

life where I I wasn't successful. And um. I kind of had it ingrained in me that I. could do better I could do better I. could do better. I wasn't a good parent to myself. I was. very tough on myself. And a lot of my dark thoughts are I'm. still very tough on myself. And it's like. you know. The other dark thoughts that I have is. I can't do the things that I used to be. able to do. Is life even worth living?

When you can't like hike when you can't. swim when you can't. go out on your bicycle when you can't. travel normally. Do Do I Is it really worth it? You know maybe maybe death wouldn't be. so bad compared to that. I go through. that. And then I go. I talk myself out of it again and again. and again. But my dark thoughts are about. about myself and my doubts.

and about the state of my body as it is. right now kind of thing. If I said to. you that I had those same doubts. about you know if I was. if we were. identical in every way and I said well. but I'm having a lot of doubts about I. can't go out on my bicycle I can't do. the things I used to do. I'm wondering. if life is worth living. And I asked you. for advice I said I don't know what to. do about all this self-doubt I have. about these books that I've written. What would you say to me? Well um I would say um.

There's a lot of people who talk a lot. in life. who [ __ ] their way who say they've. accomplished this that and the other and. they've never done anything. You have a book out there that you can. be very proud of, that you can die. tomorrow and it's like. a memento that will live on forever. And you've accomplished it. You've. accomplished this stuff with your. podcast. You've actually made things. So, focus on that. Focus on the fact. that so many people. never get out of bed and uh amount to.

anything. So, you've built things. You've. accomplished things. Focus on that. And then. about your body, well, you know, when you're dead, it's it's all gone. Who knows what life what there is on the. other side, but. just think of. of the insanity of what it means to be. alive. And that's another chapter in my. in my new book. The odds. against you, Stephen, of ever being born.

are absolutely insane, and I describe. those odds in the book. And I go through from the very first. cells that ever from life forming on. planet Earth to the evolution leading to. us sitting here. is unbelievable. So, that you are alive. is an incredible astounding thing, and. you have to think about that. And you. have to think about. just seeing the sky, just being aware. is is an amazing thing. So, I often.

think about. people who are suicidal. There are a lot of people like that in. life, particularly nowadays. And I know. cuz I went through that period. most strongly in my early to mid-30s as. I was contemplating the lack of success. in my life. Um. you know, and. what kept me going was I still believed. that I could accomplish something. So, even in my darkest moments, I managed to. pull myself out. But then I I think of people who maybe.

don't have that energy, who are kind of. going down that hole. And I know from my own experience that. hearing somebody tell them. that life is is an incredibly amazing. fact won't have any effect on them. Right? Because it's it doesn't connect. to them emotionally. And I often think, how could I connect to them emotionally? How could I make it clear to them. that there's something there that that's. worth preserving. I don't have the answer here today, but. I think about that all the time. Like,

how would I deal with somebody who is. suicidal? And I get people writing me. like that. And we've had I've had. relatives in those situations before. So, that's something I think a lot. about. It's it's a difficult question to. answer. What you have to say to that person in. that situation to get them to believe in. the sublime, to get them to believe that. there's life is worth living. I ponder whether.

what maybe you need to do is to get them. to take the first step to create. evidence for themselves somehow. Whatever that small first step is. great. I think that's I think that's. spot-on. That's exactly what you have to. do. They they have to come to. to the realization themselves. And through some. action that you get them to do, which. makes them gives them a little bit of an. ounce of belief in themself, then the. spiral can turn around. So, I I think. you're right. It has to be come from. them, but it has to come through.

something that they actually do. All the. talk in the world. won't really help them. What that is is something that I you. know, I would like to think about it. It's. and it depends on the individual, but. that I think that is the way to do it. You're writing this book at the moment. called this sublime, right? Are you writing that book because. of the situation you found yourself in. after having the stroke and and going. through that journey of saying, why is. life worth living?" And going in search. of the sublime that we all have.

inherently. Well, to be honest with you, about 20 years ago, I had the idea for. the book. I read a book. on the subject, and I got excited about it because they. were explaining it as. it's a kind of experience that's very. hard to verbalize, that goes outside of. what we normally experience. And I got very excited by the idea. And I planned to write that book. And. then in around. after war, that was going to be my.

fourth book. And my agent was getting. all prepared to sell it. And then I got. hooked into 50 Cent. And I did that book. instead, and put it on the back burner. And then Mastery came up, and I got. hooked into that. And suddenly, it kind. of got pushed aside. And then in in Human Nature, first of. all, the last chapter in the 50 Cent. book is on the sublime. It's about death. and. and what 50 and and facing it. Then the. last chapter in Human Nature is about.

the sublime. It's about death and. mortality. And the irony is. that. 2 and 1/2 months after finishing that. chapter in the book, I I nearly died. But what I had planned originally was. I was going to. go to the Gobi Desert and and and walk. across the Gobi Desert. I was going to. go swim with whales. You know, literally whales in New. Zealand. I was going to go to Tierra del. Fuego. I was going to have all of these.

sublime experiences and write about. them. And now I can't do any of that, right? All I can do is sit in my. my little room in my house, at my desk, and write the book. It's all. in my head. The book is so much better because of. that. So, it's changed. I can't go to. the Gobi Desert. I can't swim with. whales or I drown. I can't go to Tierra. del Fuego. I could only sit in my. office, look at the birds, go through.

the books that I'm reading, and write. the book, keeping in mind other people. and what's going on in the world and. their life and my limitations. So, ironically, the book has become. better. because I had to go through this. experience. But, nearly dying was going. little bells were going off in my head. All right, it's time to write that book. You're not putting it off any longer. And has it forced you to find the. sublime in the everyday. life? Well, obviously. I mean, um.

I'm writing right now a chapter. on what I call the daemon, which is an ancient Greek concept that. all of us are born with like a guardian. spirit. Right? I know it sounds very mystical, but a lot of psychologists, contemporary. psychologists, have written about the. daemon phenomena. The idea that you have. a second self, a kind of higher self, that in some way is guiding you. And it. has a lot to do with some of the things.

we've talked about, purpose, etc. And I have to think about it. I have to. think about it in terms of my own life. I have to think about. is there something else inside of me. that's communicating to me? What does. that mean? How does that connect with. other ideas about the universe? I get to. read books about it. It's a very, very. exciting process. It's It's keeping me. alive right now. And then, you know, I. write a chapter about animals and what's. sublime about. interspecies communication. And now I.

get to look at my cat. I don't look at my cat or I don't look. at the birds the same way as I did. before I wrote that chapter. So, it's. changing me and it's lifting me out of. the kind of. People who have strokes, we all have to go through terrible. diseases, all of us unfortunately, unless we die by an accident. Cancer, etc. Strokes. The number one thing that happens is is. terrible depression. To suddenly lose your body and what you.

can do. And so this has kept me out of. that depression, I have to say. You said that all of your books have. been kind of focused on different. subjects, and that's very much the case. There's sometimes three lines between. the different books, but they're all. very much focused on a variety of. different subjects. If there was. a message. that. kind of brings all of your work. together. If this was your last day on. Earth, what would the message that you would. want to leave the world with be?

Wow, that's a. really good question. Um. A lot of my books. have to do with um. the reality of our life. And and what. not not what we want to believe. Not our our fake ideas about it. Not our. illusions, etc. But what life is really really like.

This is the human animal. This is how. they behave. This is what will seduce. them. This what was what will turn them. off. This is how strategies will get us. what we want in life. This is how. you can master your subject. Not the. [ __ ] thing that people tell you. about mastery, where you can take a. drug, where you can hack your way to. mastery. This is the truth. This is the. reality. So all of my books, the through. line is. this is what the world is really like. It's not ugly. It's not beautiful. It just is.

And it's great to just relate to the. world as it is. To see things as they. are. It kind of is liberating. And in a. way it is kind of beautiful to just. connect to the reality and not being. inside of your wishes about why can't. people be more like this? Why can't. somebody tell me this? Why can't they. give me this? Why can't I be successful? Blah blah blah blah blah. Getting rid of. your illusions and just looking at the. way that life is. is sort of I guess would be the through.

through line of all of my books. Do you. see life as a bit of a game? And is that. a healthier way to view life? A game. where we need to learn the rules and. then play the game versus fight against. um the injustice of the rules of the. game? Yeah, it's all a game. Um definitely. Uh. there was a great um uh man on the left. named Saul Alinsky who wrote a book. called Rules for Radicals. He was a strategist for union.

organizing. And he hated He would hate. the world today with people with all of. their virtue signaling and everything. He said, "If you want to change life, if. you believe that there's injustice, you. have to be a strategist. It's warfare. You have to organize. You. have to understand the rules that will. lead to actual change in this world.". And whenever you enter the realm of. rules and strategy, it is like a game, you know? And so, yeah, I believe that.

and I believe. people with all their moralistic ideas. who think just because they believe. something is right that it that it it it. will get get what they want. They're. just living in in They're just They're. the fools. You have to strategize. If you don't, you're just bullshitting. You're just. pretend You're just virtue signaling. You want people to see you as a saint. If you're not willing to get your hands. dirty and to organize and to say, "I've.

got to take this A B C D. I have to. figure out the process of getting. there.". then all you're doing is just playing a. game of appearances as opposed to the. real game of getting things done in. life. What is the opposite of that. strategy you're talking about? So, I'm. trying to figure out the. the average person that is currently not. strategizing. in their life, what are they doing? Well, um. you know, everybody. I guess you could say everybody has a.

strategy, but their strategies are. extremely ineffective. Their strategies. are full of illusions. So, human beings. have to strategize because to wake up in. the morning and to go, "I've got to make. breakfast." You got to strategize how. you're going to cook and what you're. going to make and what you're going to. do to the day and what you're going to. wear. You know, it's human it's human nature. It's just people do it very, very badly. and they do it badly because they're so. emotional.

Now, I'm not against emotions and. emotions play a huge role and I'm. writing a lot about it in my new book. But the ability to get things done, you. have to be in control of your emotions. You have to take a step back and you. have to go. "I'm not going to react. This person is pressuring me. They're. saying these things. My natural tendency. is to react, get my back up and bite. back. No. I'm going to step back and I'm going to. go. "What's going to make them shut the [ __ ].

up? What's going to make them get out of. my life? What's going to make what's. going to get rid of them? What's going. to defeat them if they're an adversary? All right. I made that decision not to react to get. emotional. All right, now I have to. think. If I do this, they're going to react. this way, but if I surprise them with. this angle, they won't know what to do. and then they'll they'll react in a. different way and I'll be in control of. the situation.". I strategize. I go through a process of. of gaming out the possibilities here.

And that's to be a strategist. The. opposite is a book that I meant to write. after seduction, which is a book about. human stupidity. To not be strategic is to be stupid. And. and stupid stupid people create more. damage in this life than anybody else. with their bad strategies, their bad. wars, the bad things they lead people. into, their bad politics, etc. So, that's the opposite of strategy is. stupidity. I also have within there that sort of.

emotion. Being emotionally driven is. very much it doesn't allow you to have. effective strategies because you'll get. caught up in. Yeah, you'll get caught up. personal things. personal things and. yeah, and things that probably don't. matter. That ability to rise above. though, I think we all want to master. that. I would love to master the ability. to rise above in all situations at all. times. Well, you can. When you're younger, it's harder because. because you've got your hormones, you've. got all that energy, got all that. adrenaline, it's harder. If you get. older, gets a little bit easier. Do you.

have a a system that you use just to. detach yourself from the emotion. sometimes? Well, I'm not always good at it. Um so, I've learned. to not react emotionally when people say. something that I think is going to be. triggering. I just. don't do anything. I go into my Zen mode. Oh, it's just it's just life, it's just. words, it's just verbiage, it doesn't. matter, it doesn't mean anything to me. I'm neutral, I'm unaffected, I'm in my.

citadel. Goodbye, fine, it's okay. If I get angry. and I write that email, which I still. do, I don't send it. I put it in my. draft box. I look at it a week later and go, "What. the heck was I thinking about? I'm glad. you didn't send that." You know, you. delay your reactions. But mostly, I've trained myself and I. must say my meditation practices helped. me. to not react when people say things that. are so annoying that they get under my.

skin. I just go, "That's them. It's not me. They're. another human being. They have a bad idea. I don't care. It's. not my bad idea. It's their life.". As you know, Whoop are sponsors of this. podcast and I'm an investor in the. company and last month I had the chance. to sit down with Kristen Holmes. She's a. VP of performance at Whoop and I learned. so much from our conversation about. circadian rhythms and things like sleep. Studies show that for every 45 minutes. of sleep that that you accrue, that your. decision-making ability will drop by up. to 10% and when you're chronically.

underslept, you're only be a fraction of. the person, the fraction of the boss, partner, friend, manager that you can. be. That's why I'm obsessed with Whoop, which not just tracks but coaches you on. how to get better at sleep so you can. bring your best to everything that you. choose to do. If you're not convinced, you can try Whoop for 30 days completely. risk-free with zero commitment just by. going to join.whoop.com/ceo. That's join.whoop.com/ceo and let me.

know how you get on. If you don't like. it, there's no commitment. join.whoop.com/ceo. Earlier you mentioned the opposite of. strategy was. So let's talk about politics. It's a really interesting time in. politics at the moment. I'm really. obsessed with US politics in particular. because. it's more like a reality show over here. than um. in the UK it's quite boring. It is very. boring over there, I must admit. This year Trump is running for. re-election against Biden.

The country seems to be very divided for. a number of different reasons. It feels. I don't know. I just feel like it's more. divided than ever. I do feel like the. left has moved further left than ever. before to the point that I I struggle to. resonate with that side and I still. don't resonate with the the right. So I. kind of feel a bit trapped. What do you. think of everything that's going on and. how How your kind of work form what's. happening and. everything in between? Well, um we all have biases and um. I've come from more of the.

the liberal side, the left side. Uh I was actually. rather extreme when I was younger. So, I. have that bias. Um so, I'm not really going to be. objective. So, let's get that out of the. way, right? You know, I have my. emotional reactions, my triggering by. what I see. But, um. I'm very concerned. about the overall spirit, the overall. zeitgeist.

So, I worked as um. I know this is sound like I'm going in a. in a tangent, but bear with me. I was on the board of directors of a. publicly traded company, American. Apparel. And I was brought on there because I was. friends with the CEO. But, he thought of. me as a strategist cuz he loved the 48. Laws of Power. And I started seeing the things were. kind of going downhill. And I sort of had my finger on what the. problem was.

The problem was. our. our demographic was basically young. women the ages 18 to 24. That's a very difficult demographic to. deal with because their taste change. very quickly. They're very viral, etc., etc. And so, what worked early on with American. Apparel, it was suddenly slowly becoming. a cliché, right? And it wasn't going to translate. well to a new generation coming up, which ended up being Gen Z.

And so, I had the idea of like. we need to have these retreats, these. yearly things where we step back from. the day-to-day business and we think. about the brand, where we're going, how. we're going to adapt. We're not going to. change it, but we're going to adapt, etc., etc. I presented it to the CEO and uh well, no, we don't need any that blah blah. blah. What I came away with was that the. reason businesses are so awful, large. business, why they suck, why they're. never successful, why they're so damn.

annoying. is because they're always dealing with. the quarterly report, at least for. publicly traded businesses, right? They. can't have a long-term vision because. they can't afford it. They have to deal. with what Wall Street will say to that. quarterly report. And and you know what. what what what the investors are going. to how they're going to react. To sit. there and step back and think about. where you're going to be in a year or. two, we might not even exist in a year. or two, so forget it. Well, politics is the same thing. You've. got to win elections. You're facing.

every couple of years, every four years. You don't have the luxury of thinking of. the larger picture. And that's what. we're suffering from right now because. if you look at the political situation. in America. nobody has any loyalty to anything. So, in my age when I grew up you were a. Democrat you were a Republican. And you had kind of roots and you. believed in that because well, the. Democratic Party was for the working.

class. We were for the unions. We were. for the common guy, the little guy, the. FDR mentality, even to some extent. Kennedy and Johnson. The Republicans, we. were for big business, for lower taxes, blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. You had a sense of connection to it. Now. people have no connection at all to any. particular party, which is fine. I don't. I don't But what that means is it's so. volatile. So, somebody will vote for. Obama. then they'll vote for Trump then they'll.

vote for Biden and then they'll vote for. Trump again and there are plenty people. in that situation. They have no roots, they're not connected to anything. And. it's not people's fault, it's our. politics' fault. They're not creating a. sense of what it means to be an. American. What is it Can you give us. a story, a myth about what it means to be an. American in 2024 that will connect us, that will kind of give us a sense of.

what is beautiful about our country? Because there are beautiful things about. it. It's possible. It's very possible to. create that kind of a vision. If you can. step back and you can think in longer. term. All right, maybe it's hard to do. that for America, but what is it for the. goddamn Democratic Party? What does it. mean to be a Democrat? What does it mean. to be Now to be a Republican, it just. means to be a lapdog for Donald Trump, to believe everything he does. But the. Democrats have their own problems, their. own issues.

It doesn't You can't have a party that's. just against everything. What are you for? I often tell people, "I'm sick of hearing what you hate. I'm. sick of hearing what you're against. I'm. sick of hearing what you're complaining. Tell me what you want. Tell me what. you're for. Tell me your vision of what. a great country would be like.". But you can't They can't do that because. they're only in this bubble of what I. hate, what I'm against, it's what I'm. trying to protect, etc., etc. So, there's got to be a a politician that. rises up at some point that has a vision.

that's not just a demagogue, that's not. just a charismatic that's looking out. for themself. They can connect the dots. They can say, "This is what it means to be in this. party. This is our vision. This is what. connects. This is the glue.". Yeah, there're going to be little. separate parts of it. Okay, but we're. the party of the of the working class, right? We're the party that's going to. protect people, protect make life easier. for them. Or we're the party.

of business, etc., etc. I don't care. what it is, but create a vision, a sense. of who you are, of what it connects to. Hit people in their heart, in their. You see, Trump succeeds because he has. an an emotional, visceral effect on. people, and he's very good at it. The Democrats can't learn that. It's. always about. a laundry list of we're going to do A, B, C, D, and E. We're going to hit the. numbers. We're going to reduce. inflation. We're going to create this.

amount of jobs, etc. It's all in the. head. It's not in here. You've got to. create You've got to connect to people. viscerally, emotionally. You have to. create a myth that will connect people. even within their disparate little. niches. And it's possible because to. believe it's impossible goes against the. grain of history. Somebody will emerge. I might be dead when it happens, who. will go through that some process for. that because otherwise everything will. fall apart.

Robert, we have a closing tradition on. this podcast where the last guest leaves. a question for the next guest. Oh, I. didn't I didn't I didn't prepare. It's. okay. I'm sure I'm sure you can come up. with a one about the sublime, maybe. I. don't know. We'll see. The question for you is. Okay, and you're not allowed to say. nothing. If you could change one thing from your. last 10 years, what would it be and why?

Well, um. I would have. I would have prevented my stroke. Um I would have. realized that I was burning myself out. writing The Laws of Human Nature. I. would have taken it slower. I would have realized that my body has. limits, and I would have uh. I would have been easier on myself. and not put myself cuz that book was. very stressful and very difficult. I. would have taken it slower. I would have. gone.

at a different pace, and I wouldn't have had my stroke. And I'd be so much happier. Do you think you could have prevented. your stroke? Yeah. Definitely. I mean, um. it was a weird set of circumstances. Um but the stress of writing The Human. Nature kind of ground ground me down. And then I had kind of high blood. pressure already. And then I took a trip to New York where. I forgot my blood pressure medication.

And then I was hiking in a park and a. wasp stung me here. And 5 days later, this whole area got. inflamed to red. I was itching. I. couldn't stand it. Went to the doctor. They prescribed me. basically a steroid which raised my. blood pressure to the roof. And then when I had the stroke, my blood. clot was exactly where that wasp sting. was in my neck. So, if I hadn't. worn myself into the ground, if I hadn't.

forgotten my blood pressure medication, if I hadn't if that doctor hadn't. prescribed to me that nasty prednisone, if I'd just been more careful like that, I probably wouldn't have had the stroke. Are you able to forgive that sequence of. events and the people involved? Yeah, I. have to. I've forgiven the wasp. You know, that wasp maybe died because of me. because I don't know if wasps die when. they sting you. Bees do, but I've. forgiven the wasp.

Um I've walked past that spot where the. wasp stung me and given my little prayer. to it and said, "I'm sorry about your. little life, etc.". And yeah, I've I've forgiven uh. I I've gotten over that and. I've made my peace with it. You know. what? It was meant to happen. Amor fati, it was my fate. And probably it happened for a good. reason. I mean, I'm. right now contradicting my answer to. that person's question, but so what? That's life.

Because. the way I think about it is. I was kind of reckless. with what I thought I could do. And. probably if I hadn't had my stroke, I. probably would have something else bad. would have happened. Because I I didn't realize my physical. limits. I probably would have And so I'm. alive. I have my brain, and I'm writing this. next book. So, it happened for a reason. If that bee wasn't there that day. wasp Sorry. It's my correction. If that wasp.

No, no precious again, please, please. If that wasp wasn't there that day, and. I say this because I I've been reading a. few books recently about how throughout. human history these tiny little events. like the Nagasaki where they dropped the. bombs and all of these tiny little. events with a a cloud that flew over a. city. effect. All of the little butterfly effect. things. Is there anything from. the how these tiny seemingly. insignificant chance events can have. massive consequences? to make me cry. Cuz what if there was. like a little bit of wind and the wasp.

didn't come directly in my path? Yeah. I know. It's horrifying. But is there anything. cuz that's the nature of the world we. live in. where tiny little things that we cannot. predict can determine our lives in huge. ways, can sway our lives in huge ways. Is there anything that we can. do about it? No, there's nothing you can. do about it. You you know, it's it's. it's Ryan Holiday will talk to you about.

it. You What you can do is the stoic. philosophy is how you react to it. mentally. You can't change the physical. circumstance, but you can change how you. think about it and how you react. Robert, thank you so much for your time. and your wisdom. And I'm so very, very. excited for your upcoming book because. if it's anything like your past books, it's really something worth waiting for. and That's nice to hear. Thank you. Before we start recording, you told me. about the process you're going through. You've spent 4 years writing this. upcoming book, Sublime.

So far it's been 4 and 1/2. It'll be. another year and 1/2. So that'll be 6. total years. Yes. For instance, I it's so incredibly. it's so inspiring to me. Well, keep this. in mind, Stephen. I can't type. Mhm. So, um my I was used to be a fast typist. Mhm. And I can't go up take a hike to. clear my head. So everything It's not. like it takes double. Takes like. It's like 1 and 1/2 times more. I have. to write things out by hand. I have to edit by hand. I have to.

dictate into the computer. I have to. edit with one hand. I have to clear my mind without hiking. So everything takes 1 and 1/2 times. more. That's probably So probably would have. been like a 4 or 5-year book. But as you. said about your cycle, when you slow. things down, sometimes you enjoy them. more and you make better things. I think you're right. And And probably. the slower cooking will make a better. book. Exactly right. I can't wait. I hope. everyone has your existing books cuz. they're all. um as everyone's witnessed today, they're all based on.

challenging but important enduring. wisdom. Every single one of them. And I think we need more challenging. wisdom in our society these days. Well, thank you. So thank you so much, Robert. You're a real um You're welcome, man. here at To Many. Thank you so much. Okay. Thank you, Stephen. Thank you for. inviting me back.

Oh.