The Man Who Climbs Without A Rope: Sitting At Home Is More Dangerous Than Climbing | Alex Honnold

It drives me crazy that nobody else. thinks about risk in this way. People. look at my life and they're like, "Well, you're crazy. You're such a risk taker.". Well, at least I'm taking the risks that. I'm choosing because think of all the. people that like go out partying every. weekend and they get buzzed and they. drive home. And even sedendary people. who are like, "Well, I don't take risk. I stay home and I play video games." No, you're at a much higher risk of heart. disease. Like, they're taking all kinds. of risk that they're not actually. choosing to take and you're still going. to freaking die either way. So, you. might as well take smart, calculated. risks and do all the things that you. want to do and at least die happy when. you go. He's done it. Alice Honold has.

made history again, scaling one of the. world's tallest skyscrapers. [music]. >> But the conclusion that a lot of people. have arrived at is that you don't. experience fear because when they look. at these two brain scans, your amydala. is lighting up less when you're shown. scary images. I I actually hate all the. brain stuff because people always put me. in this box. They're like, "Well, you're. different." And I'm like, "Well, not. really. Like, I'm a middle class. suburban kid. Nobody in my family is. athletic. I just after [music] 20 years. of climbing 5 days a week and being. really freaking scared, I respond. differently than an average person." And. there was tons of emotional turmoil. throughout it. Periods where you're just. like I'm trying so hard and I'm just.

like not as good as I want to be. You. know, I was like living in a car. I had. like a couple hundred bucks a month for. 10 years. Like that's challenging. But. you just can't master a craft overnight. I guess that's what people don't see. And so how do you create the conditions. to out persist other people? And then in. all your career, when is the moment. where you were most scared? >> On an expedition to Antarctica. I kept. hoping that it's going to get better and. it just kept getting [music] worse. Like. I could die. >> Do you have a conversation with your. partner before you go and do something. like this? because she wrote a letter. >> Oh gosh. >> Obviously, this is your worst nightmare, she said. But we all have to do scary.

things sometimes, Alex. >> Guys, I've got a quick favor to ask you. We're approaching a significant. subscriber milestone on this show, and. roughly 69% of you that listen and love. this show haven't yet subscribed for. whatever reason. If there was ever a. time for you to do us a favor, if we've. ever done anything for you, given you. value in any way, it is simply hitting. that subscribe button. and it means. [clears throat] so much to myself but. also to my team because when we hit. these milestones we go away as a team. and celebrate and it's the thing the. simple free easy thing you can do to.

help make this show a little bit better. every single week. So that's a favor I. would ask you and um if you do. [clears throat] hit the subscribe button. I won't let you down and we'll continue. to find small ways to make this whole. production better. Thank you so much for. being part of this journey. Means the. world. And uh yeah, let's do this. [music]. Alex to understand you. I think from. everything I've learned about you, from. the research I've done, from speaking to. your wife, your agent, everybody I could.

speak to, I think to understand your. context, we first need to understand the. circumstances in which you were raised. and the childhood you had because it. seems to be I mean for all of us there's. like fingerprints left on us that define. the anomaly um that many of us become. including yourself. So what do I need to. know? What does the viewer need to know. about the early context? >> I mean, how deep do you want to go? I. need get a sofa. I need to reply. [laughter] Like, all right. Uh, but. yeah, certainly there's a there's an. imprint from my parents, my upbringing.

I mean, they had a a very fraught. relationship. They eventually got. divorced, but they stayed together for. the kids and it was a whole like, you. know, say a tense home life because. neither of them really liked each other. And then my mom is very driven, very, you know, high performing. And then my. dad was hard to say. I mean, I think my. dad was deeply depressed basically the. whole time I knew him cuz he was in this. relation. You know, it's hard to tell. He wasn't living his best life. And then. sadly after they got divorced, he was he. was much happier, but then he died. And. so then never really got to see uh never. really got to see him blossom that much.

>> And your mother's high performing. And. did did she sort of implicitly demand. that of you in any way? >> Yeah, I mean my mother speaks like seven. or eight languages. She like plays every. instrument. It's like kind of crazy. She's very artistically minded in that. way, like you know, the arts and. classical sense. But um yeah, she I mean. she wanted us to do all those things. too. I'm a deep disappointment in that. regard. >> There was a phrase that I saw when I was. watching the documentary that your your. mother would continually say which I. think translates to something like not. good enough like pressing a ka like.

almost like almost doesn't count. It's. funny because I feel like uh a lot of my. adult life now one of my sort of go-to. sayings is you know don't let perfect be. the enemy of good. I'm really into like. good enough. Like it's better to like. try. It's better to do something, you. know, it's better to fail quickly and. learn and keep moving forward than to. not try something. Like basically, I. don't want to be crippled by. perfectionism. Sort of like my mom is. very much a perfectionist, you know, like if you can't do it right, don't do. it. I'm sort of like I think it's better. to try and learn and improve, >> but she's accomplished a lot of things.

with that approach. >> Yeah, she Yeah, she has for sure. >> What about emotions? This is something. you I've had heard you sort of talked. about a lot is in that environment where. your mother and father aren't getting. along well. I think I I heard you say. that your you hadn't seen your father. really happy before he'd passed away. >> Yeah. >> Was it an emotional household in terms. of affection? >> No, it was a very unemotional household. That said though, you know, it was a. safe, relatively happy household. Like. it was it was fine, you know, and and I. was close to a lot of my extended. family. And so I had a really good. relation with my grandparents and some. my aunts and uncles. And so I mean I.

basically would have characterized it as. a totally happy family life until I. became older and started seeing other. people's families more and was kind of. like, "Oh, this seems even happier." You. know what I mean? It's like basically. really good until you see what what else. it can be and then you're like this. seems even better. >> And your mom wasn't ever affectionate. >> You know, it always feels slightly. conditional, you know, where it's like. uh you know, she cares if you be you. know, if you perform well, like if you. do well, like if you're a good kid or. whatever, you know what I mean? >> Where where did climbing come into your.

life? Cuz I've got some I have found. some photos of you climbing and you look. your like with your sister, I believe. Here we go. This one here. >> Yeah. Classic. How old have you been? >> I don't know. I mean, I don't know, like. six or something or eight. It's hard for. me to tell like medium-sized kids ages. Why? Why climbing? >> Oh, why not? It's so freaking cool. Have. you Have you rock climbed? >> I've Yeah, I have. >> You gone to a gym? >> Yeah, I've I have. But. >> And wasn't it the freaking coolest. thing? >> It was fun. Yeah, for sure. I mean, saying I've climbed when I'm sat with. you is I feel like. >> Yeah. But you have tried it. >> Yeah, I have. Yeah.

>> As an adult, if you can imagine as a kid. how fun that is. And then if you just. keep doing that non-stop and then you. find that you're, you know, have some. aptitude for it, you enjoy it. It's. like, you know, you can imagine going. down that path. It's so cool. >> But is there something about the. challenge of climbing that you think. just kind of like was a jigsaw piece for. your for you your brain? Like problem. solving? >> Well, I think there's something. elemental about climbing in the same way. as like running or swimming. It's like a. basic movement thing that I think is. quite enjoyable. And I think that I also. I I think I have an innate love of like.

being on top of things like, you know, being at the top. Basically, I love big. views. I like the expansive, you know, I. like air and so I like being up on. stuff. So, I don't know. I think it just. hit a few sweet spots like that where I. was like, "Oh, climbing is just so. cool." And. >> you I'm assuming you never thought this. could be a career. >> No. No. And actually, even when I. started rock climbing sort of full-time, I still didn't think it could be a. career because there just wasn't really. professional climbing at that time. It. was like much smaller. The industry is. way smaller. Climbing was way more. fringe and like less of a thing. But you. weren't motivated by like money or.

anything cuz one does not pursue rock. climbing to become No. Rich. >> Not to become rich. No. Well, so I said. though, so my father died like the. season before that. And because my. parents had just gotten divorced, he. basically left his retirement to my. sister and me and she used it to finish. college. I just put it into bonds and. was living off like 300 bucks a month or. whatever, which kind of like worked. You. know, I was like living in a car. I. stole my mom's minivan at the time. I. had like a couple hundred bucks a month. and it was kind of enough to just like. go to be a 19-year-old just like. camping, you know.

>> Was it this minivan? >> No, that's my second one. That's the. Ford Econoline. That's the first actual. van that I bought. I lived in that van. for 10 years. >> For 10 years? >> Yeah. Yeah. So, I bought this van. I. mean, this is this is classic. But so, I. bought this van for 10 grand. And and. then originally, this is the last. buildout, which is the classiest. buildout. The original one my uncle and. I did for free with like scrap wood from. his, you know, in his wood shop. basically. And uh and so then I lived in. that for 10 years and you're kind of. like, yeah, when you live in it, I. couldn't even stand in this van, you. know, I was like, "Oh, my back." But you.

know, when you're living in your car for. 10 years, you save quite a lot of money. >> Between what ages did you live in your. car for 10 years? >> I probably bought this van when I was. 20. So 20 to 30 basically. >> H does the. >> Yeah, actually I think that's right. because um because I think I met my wife. when I was 30 and that same year I. switched from this van to the bigger. van. And if you've seen the film Free. Solo, that's um I bought the the. ProMaster, this like Dodge. It was like. I could stand up in my van finally. [clears throat] and I was like, I'm. moving up in the world. I can stand. >> in there really well. Oh, there's there.

is a little stove in this one, but. >> yeah. So, this though is the I did three. different buildouts of this van over the. 10 years cuz like the original one was. super scrappy. The second build was like. a little nicer and then this was like a. pretty nice build that I had for I don't. know, five or six years or something. When you live in your van for 10 years. and you have a mother who is very. performance focused, I've got um her. here. I believe you coming with her. Classic. >> Do you not face a lot of external. pressure to like go get a real job? Honestly, less so than you would think. Um.

like to her credit, my mom was always. pretty supportive of the whole path. I. think, you know, I was kind of lucky. that that I did a lot of this when I was. like young enough that it's all part of. like you're gappier like, you know, it's. like you're young and you're finding. yourself and then and then I think there. was enough sort of external validation. that that my family could at least look. at and be like, well, you seem to be. good at this random thing even though we. don't get it and don't really know what. you're doing, but at least other people. think you're good at it. So, keep doing. your thing. >> And at this point, was it was it rock. climbing? Was it free soloing? And. >> yeah, it's all a little bit of. everything, but basically just being a I.

mean, you know, like being a. professional climber, quote unquote. Some of it's free soloing, some it's. like speed climbing, some of it's just. hard climbing, some of it's going on. expeditions, doing new roots, like it's. a little bit of everything. >> And for the average person that doesn't. know what free soloing is, what's the. like definition of it? >> That's climbing without a robe. So. climbing without protection, which is. definitely what I'm most well known for. now, but in the context of professional. climbing, I've done tons of other things. in climbing. Like most of the time you. have a rope on, most of the time you're. doing other sorts of things. But it's. like the free souling is what you might.

have been well known for because that. like breaks into the mainstream a lot. more. >> I'm really intrigued generally by people. like you who like take I mean take the. path less traveled in their career and. then maybe nearer the the end of the. graph pick up traction. And I have this. piece of paper in this pen because I'd. love if you could from the age of let's. say 80 you're now 40 years old. >> Yeah I turned 40 this year old. Could. you draw a graph showing how your career.

looks in terms of success? You can. measure that by money or attention or. whatever. Let's see. So, >> it was kind of like. >> nothing. >> Slow a little bit and then like thisish. >> Yeah. >> And then kind of like and then basically. just like in like this where you. basically like kind of flat but growing. and then you have free solo where it. jumps a ton. It's like kind of crazy. And then and then it keeps kind of. growing at a slightly faster rate than. before and then it basically jumps a ton. because of the building thing again. >> I I find this fascinating because most. people in their lives wouldn't be.

willing to endure this phase 18 to 29. where. >> it's not enduring. It's so great. Like I. would do that again. I loved it so much. Like I mean I often think I'd be so. happy to just start over from zero. because like all the places that I go. climbing now I've been climbing there. for 20 years and I've like done most of. the things I can do and you know I've. sort of like tapped out a lot of stuff. in the western US and I'm like man I. would love to just hit the rezero button. and start over because you'd have so. much stuff to do and it's so amazing. >> I guess that's the that's the different. the fault of my question is that I said.

the word endure but you see it as. >> Yeah. You get to climb every single. thing you see. It's amazing. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and that's the thing. is like from age 18 to to 30, I. basically did try to climb every single. thing I could see because I was just. like, I'm learning. I'm growing. This is. amazing. I climb everything. And like. now I'm actually much more strategic. about it because doing tons of easy. climbing like doesn't really help me at. this point. I'm not going to make like. big technique gains. It basically just. makes me tired without without the right. kind of gains. It'd be like somebody. it'd be like an elite runner just.

jogging for miles and miles every day. And you're kind of like that's not going. to make you it's not going to improve. your marathon time if you're already. like an elite runner. It's it might be. fun, but it's just not going to like. move the needle for you. Through this. period of your life, 18 to 30, you're. optimizing for just having fun, doing. things you enjoy. >> Well, I mean, no, I was always I was. always challenging myself. Like. basically, I was optimizing for like. what's the next thing I can do that. pushes me a little bit. >> But you weren't optimizing for how to. get rich or. >> Well, then I would have gotten a job. If. I was optimizing for getting rich, I.

would have freaking finished my college. degree and gotten a job. >> I say this in part because I interview. so many people who pursued careers that. are often considered not real jobs, like. comedians or magicians. >> And I tend to find the same thing. between the age of 18 and 30, they. optimize for something that isn't. necessarily being rich or famous. And. then at some point the graph looks like. this. Well, it's because I mean I think. I'm sure you know this, but I mean the. the world really it's like a winner take. all economy type deal. It's like. basically if you're the dude that does. the thing, all of a sudden your earnings.

go insane. >> But until you become the dude that does. the thing, you know, if you're like the. best magician or the best comedian or. the best whatever, then all of a sudden. you make an insane amount of money. But. when you're just like one of many. struggling comedians, you're, you know, you're struggling. And so I think for me. as a climber, you're sort of like, oh, I'm just a dude living in my van. climbing. But then a certain point, I'm. like the dude that, you know, I'm like, [clears throat] oh, you're that guy that. climbs without the rope. And you're. like, oh yeah, cool. And then all of a. sudden your earnings are like. >> Was this um was this a difficult period. of your life this 18 to 30? >> No, it was like the best. Well,

obviously it was like f, you know, I was. like trying to juggle rel like I wanted. to get a girlfriend. You're a young 20s. man living alone in a car like wanting. to be better at something than you are. and not not quite knowing the way, not. knowing what you're doing with your. life. So no, so obviously there was tons. of emotional turmoil throughout it, but. no, I mean retrospectively it's like. amazing. And your your dad passes away. which is in part I guess some of the. catalyst for. >> Yeah. Honestly my dad passing away. should be the beginning of that graph. It should be this should basically start. at 19 cuz uh 18 I went to university and.

so then uh starting at 19 I guess I uh. went on the road. >> Your dad passing. what impact did that have on you outside. of it somewhat liberating you to to make. decisions that outside of his. expectations? >> Well I mean obviously it was you know. it's sad. It's hard like and especially. now I'm sort of like oh it's too bad. that that I don't have a relationship. with my dad and he doesn't you know that. my kids don't have a grandfather and all. that kind of you know it's like yeah. it's it's tough. I think that the most. immediate impact that had maybe was just. reminding me of my own mortality, you.

know, I mean, he he died unexpectedly at. 55, just fell over in the airport and. just fell over dead. Um, like heart. attack. And so, you know, I mean, I. think that that reminder of my own. mortality has had a big impact on my. career, my life, you know, my climbing. world, whatever. one might not expect. you to go quote unquote do risky things. because of. >> well [clears throat] no because the. thing is I think one of the reasons that. people don't do risky things is because. they have this uh you know mistaken idea. that they can live forever basically and.

basically because people don't want to. think about their own mortality and so. they're like oh I don't want to take any. risks I could die and you're like you. know that you're going to die either way. and either way when you die you're going. to be bummed that you didn't live longer. because you know it's like like the life. expect 78 and you're like Say you make. it to for men, whatever. Like, say you. make it that far, you're still going to. be like, man, I wish I had 22 more years. to like watch my grandkids graduate. college or whatever, you know, it's like. it's still going to feel like too. little. >> And so, I'm kind of like, you're better. off dying at 55 in an accident, but.

having done many things that you're. proud of and, you know, like led a life. that you're that you're proud of than. dying at 78 and still wishing you had. more, but having done none of the things. you wanted to do. It. >> is interesting. It does appear that. people live as if we think we're going. to live forever. Yeah, it's totally. insane. I mean, everyone's like, "Oh, I. don't take any risk." And you're like, "Yeah, well, you can take no risk in. your life and you're still going to. freaking die." So, you might as well. take smart, calculated risks and do all. the things that you want to do and at. least die happy when you go. >> What does this mean to you to like live. intentionally? >> Well, that's exactly it. Like choosing.

the the risk that you're willing to. take, making choices, like using your. time the way you want to use it. >> I was looking at I think it was your. your personality a personality test you. did. You said you. >> like did I do a personality test? Um. like how much material do you have? I'm. like Jesus [laughter] Christ. Like how. many like things do you have? >> I have unlimited things. >> I know. I'm so impressed. >> on this uh personality test. It says. you're you know higher on thrillseeking. and sensation seeking but then also. significantly higher than the average. male on urgency which I think kind of. overlays with what you were just saying. there of like making the decision to do.

something. >> Yeah. Basically because your time is. short and you're going to die so get on. with it. >> It says here you're higher on. conscientiousness. >> Very polite. You know, >> thrill seeking, sensation seeking, you're low on boredom. >> I think low on boredom means that, you. know, you don't get bored. >> Perseverance. You're very high on. perseverance. >> Yeah, I think that's the same as low on. boredom. >> And low on neuroticism. >> That's for sure. >> And so, what's your what is what's the. definition of the word neuroticism? Is. it like. >> Well, I think it's like the Well, I'm. sure there's a clinical definition, but.

I think of it as sort of general anxiety. type stuff, like, you know, people. spinning in their heads about things. that don't matter. And has that always. been the case when you look back through. your life and the feedback you've had as. a kid and a teenager? Kind of. Yeah. I. think so. I think I've never been too. concerned about I I don't spin. I mean, obviously, you know, occasionally I. stress about things, but but just not. the way I think a lot of people do. >> I'm trying to figure out if that's a. learned behavior or maybe a little bit. learned and a little bit um from your. upbringing, genetics, whatever it might.

be. Because can can one learn that? Can. one learn to be less neurotic and. >> Well, presumably I mean like meditation, things like that. I think people can. sort of find a way to let go of certain. things. >> Isn't this quite quite interesting when. people ask you questions inevitably. about fear and how you take on such you. know to muggles like me terrifying. challenges. There's an element of all of. this which is you do have a nature and. and a nurture which somewhat is. impossible for someone like me to. replicate. >> because your brain and my brain are. completely different. Your parents your. early contacts when your brain was being.

wired and malated are completely. different to mine. So, you know, I. always find this is the like the trouble. of giving people advice is. um we're dealing with different. different natures, >> different natures. >> But I I do feel like in my case, the. biggest difference in nature is the fact. that I've just always loved climbing, you know, because I basically I think. that nurture is is the majority of this. Like if you spend 30 years training a. thing, you're going to get better at the. thing. >> And [clears throat] so I think that the. biggest difference between me and and. somebody who's not into rock climb is I.

freaking love rock climbing. I could go. I could do it 10 days a week if if I. could, you know what I mean? But sadly, I get too tired and my body breaks down. And so, you know, I could I basically. have like a limitless capacity to to do. the thing. I just love doing the thing. And I think that that is probably the. biggest difference in nature, you know, because everything else you can kind of. overcome, you know, like if you loved. rock climbing as much as I love rock. climbing, no matter what your your. genetic disposition towards like. neuroticism and all that stuff, you. would just kind of work through all that. stuff and you'd find your own path to to.

getting good at climbing basically. >> If your kids came to you, you have two. girls, right? >> Yeah. >> If they came to you and said, "Dad, like. give me advice on what I should aim at. in life.". >> Would you tell I wouldn't I wouldn't. give them advice. I'd be like, "You do. you find the thing you love to do, go. hard, you know, basically like learn. some skills, get good at something, like. what do you like to do?" I mean, that's. kind of the thing for me, especially. with climbing is like if someone had. told me like, "You're going to train. climbing for the rest of your life." I'd. be like, "Oh, that sounds like kind of a. grind, you know, cuz I mean, it is it is. hard work. You're like hiking uphill. with a heavy backpack and it's cold and. it's windy. It's like it's basically.

physically uncomfortable." I mean, being. a professional rock climber means that. you're physically uncomfortable. all the time, but like like often, you. know, like it's you know, it's hard. >> Yeah. But if you're doing it because you. freaking love doing it, it doesn't feel. very hard. And so, I mean, I think the. key for a kid is find the thing that. doesn't feel like hard work. >> And when you started, were you scared of. of big tall rock faces and stuff like. that? >> I mean, yeah, I had like a healthy. intimidation of I mean, like my first. season, the first time seeing Elcap as a. climber, uh, I was 19 and it looks.

impossible. It looks completely insane. I was like, that's so big. But then, you. know, within a couple seasons, uh, you. know, I climbed some bigger walls, learned how to climb, and then a friend. and I had the sort of season goal, like. we were going to climb all season with. the aspiration at the end to climb Elcap. in a day. So, basically, there was this. long progression on LCAP specifically. where it's like you go from just trying. to get up it to trying to get up it. faster to trying to get up it with just. your hands and feet, still using. protection. But basically, there's like. all these steps you can take. And so, over a bunch of seasons, you know, I. climbed a cap like 60 times, different.

routes, all these different things. And. then eventually you're sort of like, "Oh, maybe I can start thinking about. freoling it." Which is where the film. Free Solo comes in. And then eventually. you do this thing. But then people like, "Well, aren't you scared?" And you're. kind of like, "Wow, I've spent 10 years. like building up on this thing.". >> I guess that's what people don't see. >> Yeah. So they just. >> I mean like the documentary Free Soul I. think does a pretty good job of showing. the the direct preparation like the. training involved in doing that specific. climb, but it just doesn't show the. uh like eight years before that I guess.

cuz the documentary was filmed over two. years and I guess I've been going since. 2006. So it's nine years before that. that I've been going to use and I've. been spending maybe three months a year. climbing walls. I guess that's the illusion of like all. people that do great things and then. become like athletes or sprinters or. whatever Ronaldo or Messi is you you. don't get to see the. >> Yeah. the whole life that they put into. doing the thing. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So it looks it looks like a magic trick. when we see the outcome. Like we show. show up on Netflix to watch you climb. Taipei like whoa. >> hanging with it from his leg. >> Yeah. I mean people watch some of those.

programs and they're like he just walked. up and did it. And you're like well yeah. after 30 years of practice like I just. walked up and did it. But no it's not. like just walking up and doing it. Hm. >> I mean, like, yeah, I've literally been. climbing 5 days a week for 30 years. Like, that's so much climbing. Like, I. freaking love climbing and I climb a. lot. >> On this on this idea of like exposure. therapy as it relates to like fear and. anxiety and confronting one's uh things. that terrify them. Was there in the. early days were you I'm trying to. understand. Were you like scared at some.

point? >> Oh, all the time. That's actually. something that I think uh you know I've. obviously done so many interviews around. fear and like managing fear and all that. and I've talked about fear a lot of. different ways over over the years and I. think as I've gotten older I've sort of. come to realize that that actually. you're just scared all the time as a. climber like low-level fear low like but. you're but climbing is fundamentally. scary like it's always kind of scary. because there always consequences like. even if you're climbing with a rope. you're still always visualizing like. what happens if the rope breaks like. what if you know like is this safe like.

you know is the gear good like is is. actually safe. And so you're always a. little bit scared. And so after years. and years of always being scared, you. get pretty good at managing that kind of. stuff. >> because there's a lot of sort of. misconceptions swirling around this. brain scan you. >> Yeah. I know. I hate all that stuff. That's just all from the film Free Solo. >> It was like too short of a scene in the. film. They needed a little more. They. need to let it breathe, you know, explain things a little better, I think. >> So they scanned a control subject. another person scanned you, looked at. the amydala in your brain, and that the. conclusion that a lot of people have. arrived at is that you don't experience.

fear because when they look at these two. brain scans, your amydala is lighting up. less when you're shown scary images. basically, right? But like shown just. this image, like what does that even. mean? Like my brain's purple and his. brain is orange. You're like, like what. does that mean? Like I don't know. But. no, I mean the the thing is though, and. this is what I wish was explained in the. film better, is that this is we're being. shown black and white photos inside an. fMRI. So, you're inside a sealed metal. tube. You're totally safe. You're. physically safe and comfortable. And. you're being shown black and white. photos. And so, to me, obviously, that's.

not going to light up the fear response. in my brain because you're looking at. pictures. You're like, who cares? I'm. totally safe. But in a control subject, uh, you know, apparently your brain sort. of responds to images one way or. another. But I'm kind of like, I've been. climbing for 20 years, so I've been like. scared quite a lot. And you're kind of. like, well, black and white photos start. to lose lose their edge if you've been. scared all the time for 20 years. So, it's like obviously that's not going to. trigger much. >> Yeah. Yeah. And I imagine everybody in. their life can think of a scenario where. they have mastery that would sc like a. stand-up comedian looking out at a stage. probably wouldn't be as scared as me.

>> Yeah. >> Because that would that would terrify. me. Um so again, this is not necessarily. some sort of neurological. >> No, I mean I think the real takeaway is. that I have an amydala and it works. >> Mhm. >> You know what [clears throat] I mean? like cuz I think if if the results had. shown that I was missing my amydala then. I would have all kinds of I would have. died already at youth cuz I wouldn't be. able to function as a as a human. basically but you know had it shown. something like that where there are like. structural differences or like some real. change but this is basically just. showing that after 20 years of. conditioning I respond differently than.

an average person and you're like yeah. no kidding like if you put a monk into. an fMRI their brain responds totally. differently than average person as well. >> which I actually think is a really. inspiring conclusion because it means. that we can all. >> grasp our fears better. And even, you. know, people won't know this about me, but 10 years ago, I sat down on camera. with my friend Ash in his apartment to. record a two-minute video. And as I sat. there, I couldn't I was so scared I. couldn't get the words out. So, you. actually in this 2-minute video that. comes out, you see it go from night and. day in the background just because we. did that many cuts over 7 hours to try.

and get me to say 2 minutes on camera. And obviously, after 10 years of being. on camera, I can now speak without. myself. And I imagine my brain. state looks significantly different. because of our exposure therapy. >> Totally. Yeah. Hey, you should do the. fMRI. You should Yeah. You should have. done 10 years ago cuz then you'd have. your control and then you do it now and. it'd be totally different. >> But also, the psychologists I've sat. with all confirm this. They talk about. exposure therapy. >> Yeah. And and I went through exactly the. same thing with public speaking. Like I. was always so afraid of public speaking. I was also very shy and like just not. like it was terrifying. And now because.

of the free solo film tour and you know. all the public things I've done since. then, I'm like basically fine. And you. know, it's like you still got a little. nervous, but it's like basically easy. now. You're kind of like, well, that's a. total change. It's like obviously. there's a tremendous capacity for humans. to learn. >> People talk to you about fear all the. time because I mean your work cuz. climate is really freaking scary. It. makes sense. It's totally. understandable. Yeah. >> Yeah. And they also realize, I think, at. some deep level that the thing holding. them back from who they think they want.

to be or who they aspire to be is fear. Often it's judgment of someone else. It's taking a risk. >> Totally. So, you've become for many. people the like, tell me, tell me how to. overcome. >> Yeah. Well, I think that everyone's. like, "What's your hack to overcome. fear?" And you're like, "There's no. hack. You just get really freaking. scared over and over for so long and. eventually it's not that scary anymore.". But I will say that that's like a very. enduring way to overcome your fear is. like if you're willing to go through. that process, then you are actually. unafraid, you know, because like you can.

do like hacks. I mean, you can you can. like crank up loud rock music and just. go for it, you know? Like, and there are. plenty of examples of that in in what. I'd call gravity assisted sports. Like, say if you're going to jump a cliff on. skis, like you can get to the edge, be. like, "This is really scary." And then. be like 3 2 1 do it and just like go. In. climbing, you can't really do that as. much because it's so slow. Like when you. climb, you make one move and then you. make another move and then you're like, "Do I still want to be here?" Like it. basically fear creeps in a lot more. But. sort of in gravity assisted sports, you. can have more of that moment where you. just like overcome your fear and then it. happens, you know, like making a big.

drop in a kayak or like skis or things. like that where it's like once you. commit, it's happening one way or. another. >> Anyway, there's a lot to get into with. like. >> No, but I mean I want to get into it. I. watched a video of you climbing Half. Dome, I think it was, and it looks like. you got scared halfway up or. >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, so that video is. actually filmed later. So the voice over. in that video is me talking about the. experience of me freestyling when I was. totally alone. And I did get really. scared on halfdome and I had this whole. somewhat traumatic climate experience. near the top of the wall. But then when. we went back to film it, I had a.

different traumatic experience while we. were filming. Less traumatic but uh but. like very scary for a moment and they. got that on camera. So they basically in. the film they just cut the two together. as like a because it shows me like being. really scared. >> What's Half Dome to start with and then. what was the traumatic experience? >> Yeah. So Halfdme for anyone who hasn't. seen is uh is this just totally amazing. wall in Euseite. It's a 2,000 foot. granite face. Actually it's the North. Face logo. It's a It's freaking It's. That's That's half dome. >> Okay. >> Yeah. So, it's like an iconic wall in. Euseity. >> Um it looks like half of a dome, but. actually it's more like a hockey puck.

just shoved in. It's actually a full. dome depending how you look at it. But. the Northwest Faces vertical for 2,000. ft is incredible. And so I freelled. That was one of the first like major. free soulas I did in 2008. Um and one of. the things that sort of made me a. professional climber in a way. But when. I did the climb, I did the bare minimum. preparation. I basically like didn't. know. It was it was the biggest thing. I'd ever freed. I didn't quite know how. to like go about getting ready for it. Anyway, I I climbed it and basically. hadn't practiced enough. Was really. freaking scared. Got off route, got. confused, skipped some stuff, and then.

at the very top had this whole moment of. extreme panic, you know? Basically, I. got up into some stuff and all sort of. like crumbled mentally and like sort of. barely managed to finish this upper. slab. Like the hardest part of the climb. was like right near the top. I was. trying to walk across this ledge. Basically, I've walked across that ledge. face in and face out. you normally. people hand traverse it or they crawl. across it. There are like different ways. to go across the ledge and I've done it. every which way and then we were up. there filming and I was like I'm going. to walk it face out but it turns out. when you walk it face out it's really. freaking scary. And so I made it kind of.

halfway and was like oh my gosh and then. bailed. >> And when you say you having like a like. a crisis in your your mind, what does. what is that? Is that just oh my god. what am I like how does that sound when. you. >> Well, I mean so in this case so walking. across this ledge it's like it starts. maybe as a foot wide. So your foot is. fully on the ledge and you're shuffling. across it. But then at a certain point, yeah, I mean that's that's. >> the video I'll put on the screen for. anyone watching. >> Yeah, that's that's the ledge. But. basically at the narrowest part, your. feet are sticking out over the lip of it.

and the wall bulges ever so slightly. So. it for forces your back out a little and. so you're basically like rocking on your. heels with I don't know like a 1700T. drop or something, 18800t drop like. straight down below you and so you know. it's like pretty it's pretty intense. Anyway, and so I thought I was going to. walk across it like that and I made it. to the bulging part and was suddenly. like, "Oh my god, this isn't like this. isn't for me." And then managed to like. shuffle back and and change my strategy. >> Is it like panic in your head? >> It's not panic, but you're like, "Oh,

oh, I made the wrong choice. Like, this. is bad. This is bad." You know? I mean, it's not like full like five alarm bell. like panic panic, but yeah, you're like, "Oh, I'm so screwed.". >> And you have fallen a long long way. before. I I was hearing about a time. when you were younger you fell off a a. mountain and called your mother, managed. to call your mother in. >> Yeah, though that was like sliding down. an icy cooler type thing. It's a little. different than like free falling off of. a cliff. That's like sliding down a. mountain. But yeah, I got totally messed. up and and uh Yeah. Yeah. And I've like. broken my arm several times as a kid.

falling off things and and then with a. rope as a climber, you take big falls. like routinely, you know, when you have. protection. That's like part of the. sport basically. M I mean it's certainly easy to. visualize falling 700. You know when. you're like standing on a little ledge. and you're just bulging and you're. looking down you're, you know, it's easy. to be like, "Oh my god." You know, it's. like if you just bend forward a little. bit, you're just going to take a swan. dive like 700 feet to the ground. >> The stats in this sport are I mean of of. fatalities. How do they compare to other. sports? >> Uh safer than you would think. That's.

the thing is everyone thinks it seems. crazy, but uh it's not that crazy. I. don't know actual statistics, but I. suspect that it's actually pretty. comparable to to skiing or something, you know, because like recreational. skiers die all the time, like falling. into tree wells or like going off cliffs. by accident or things like that. Climbing is actually surprisingly safe, which is one of the things I love about. climbing. I mean, climbing is very it's. very uh sort of binary where it's like. either you're totally safe or you're. going to die. And the odds of you dying.

are very very very small. But because. they're they're there, they always keep. you on. You know what I mean? Like it. basically keeps you alert, but you're never really gonna get hurt. >> Is that including free soloing? >> Yeah. I mean, for the most part, I mean, a couple people have died free soling. I. mean, people occasionally die free. soloing for sure, but actually most of. the the sort of cutting edge free. soloists have not died soling. They've. like died in other things. I think it. was in in the um the documentary on.

Netflix um Free Solo where one of your. colleagues. >> Yeah. Tommy Tommy is like most free. solos are dead now. Um which is kind of. true but it's slightly mis misstated. I. mean you know he's just like speaking. off the cuff and it's not like strictly. true. Like a couple of the best free. solos have died free soling though they. died on very easy terrain. But then the. majority of other great free solas have. died in sort of climbing adjacent. accidents like wings suit base jumping. and uh like one got swept to sea by a. rogue wave like while he was out.

climbing a sea cliff but he was like. standing on shore and got swept out to. sea. You know things like that where. you're just kind of like you know. obviously they're taking risks in their. lives and they wind up dead but it's not. the way that people think. You know, you. see a photo like that and you're like, "Free soul, you're going to die for. sure." And you're kind of like, "Well, people don't actually really die that. way." I mean, they have. I mean, not to. say that it doesn't happen, but way less. frequently than people would suspect. >> If I was to try and like, you know, [clears throat] professionally torture. you, and again, I'm not talking in. extremes here, but what life would I. prescribe you to live?

>> Oh, being like a finance bro or. something. Having to like just work. spreadsheets my whole life. Is that what. you mean? Like what what is my like. worst. >> I don't know, something like that. or. honestly being like a choreographer for. dance or something like I just I. couldn't do like or or being like an. opera singer like I would just kill. myself. I just couldn't do that. >> Why Why would being a finance bro be. like the worst thing for Alex? >> Just the idea of sitting at a computer. in a cubicle just like typing. I mean. I'm kind of contrarian. I don't like. rules. I don't want to like jump through.

hoops. I don't want to do arbitrary. things. Like I don't want some manager. to come and tell me like, "Oh, you got. to file that report again. You like. missed a line." I'd be like, "You go f,". you I just like walk out of the building. like it's just I just like don't know if. I could take that be like no. But that's. like how most of the world live. We kind. of we all live in like you know. >> I just don't know if it's for me. I don't know. I mean doesn't that just. seem I mean I had this moment I've been. in New York a couple days and I I took. the subway down to see some see some. friends and I was like coming out of the. tunnel and it's like packed with people. and I was just like looking at the.

ground and I was like just you know. following someone else's footsteps up. this like beat down path of stairs and I. was like I couldn't live like this. like. not day in and day out every day like. this is just like feeling like you're. just doing the exact same thing as. everyone else around you. I'm like oh it. seems so so boring. It's funny cuz so so many of us look at. your life and go wow that's not very. normal but actually maybe at a. foundational level you're living a much. more normal life than I mean you're out. in nature you're moving your body. >> Yeah. Yeah. In that in that way for sure.

I'm like going on cool adventures and. going out and I don't know. I think. that's also part of why the the sort of. attraction and allur with your life. especially when you watch free solo is. you do seem to be a free man. in a way where most of us aren't free as. such. >> Yeah. I mean well I think we're all sort. of aspiring to that to some extent. I. mean most people see that though as like. they get their vacation for the year. They they're planning to retire at some. point and then they're going to have. their freedom and you're kind of like I. don't know. I mean maybe you got to try. to live that way as much as possible.

>> If if your if your young girls came up. to you June and Alice and said, "Dad, what's what is a meaningful life? like. what are the principles of living a. fulfilling meaningful life? Would you. give them advice there? >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it'd be a long. rambling multi-day conversation with. them about But I mean, following your. own goals is is I think, you know, certainly one of the the cores of having. a meaningful life, like having things. that you find valuable. I mean, really. like living in line with your values, finding things that are important to you. and pursuing them with as much as you. can give them. you when you look at your.

early so 20s to 30s it kind of looks. like you're living like a Buddhist a. little bit. >> I mean yeah I went on a a trip once. where they called me the monk. just because I was living such a sort of. a seated lifestyle. I was like reading. I've never I don't drink and I don't. like party and I didn't just for. personal preference whatever. So I'm. just like living in my little van and. reading books and climbing all the time. like those are the things that I'm into. doing you know. It's like it's yeah it's. just doing what you want to do.

Have you ever been depressed or? >> Yeah, probably not like deep clinical. depression, but there's certainly. periods from time to time where you're. just like, what am I doing or why or. what are my goals? Like, you know, what's And I think to me the most. depressing thing is that, you know, I've. put like my whole life into climbing, like trying to be the best you can be. all the time. And sometimes you put tons. of effort in and you just don't see. results. Like for whatever reason, you. just suck. You're like, I'm trying so. hard and I'm just like not as good as I. want to be. And like that's challenging, you know? But that's. I mean everybody faces that to some.

extent where you're like I'm working. hard at a thing but I'm just not. achieving the results that I want. >> And between the between that the sort of. that period of no man's 20 and 30 where. your career hasn't taken off yet the. documentary is not out. You've not. climbed Taipei. How much money are you. earning from climbing? >> I mean the first my first couple years. my sponsorship through the Northace was. like uh I think my first year was like. 10k a year. I was like this is amazing. cuz I was living in my car and uh you. know making 10 grand when you live by.

yourself in a van is like more than you. need basically. Um it obviously went up. but beyond that at some point but it was. you know like in the 10 to 100 range for. the first for the whole yeah for years. >> Then at some point it increases. >> Yeah. And then it increases. I mean then. free solo is obviously like a big thing. and that sort [clears throat] of opened. up all these opportunities. Uh because. then I started doing corporate speaking. and stuff like that. And I mean, as I'm. sure you know, that's just like a whole. different world. And so then you go from. just like making some money from. sponsors to like making money from from.

other corporations stuff. And then. you're like, okay, now you're making. some money. >> One of the things when I was I was. hearing you talk about some of your. incredible climbing stories is um I was. trying to understand what role. visualization or or your preparation. plays and how that's like transferable. to to me and my life. We talked a little. bit about just how much preparation you. did for something like LCAP, >> but you you it sounds like you really. break down the challenge into smaller. bits and then really go through those. individual steps, whereas a lot of.

people would just look at LCAP and go, "Oh my god, they'll be terrified.". >> And then say impossible. >> Yeah. Which is fair. I mean, I spent. years looking at LCAP and being like, "That's too big. That's impossible." And. then, you know, after years of that, I. kept hoping that I would look at it and. it would like look easy somehow and I'd. be like, "Cool, now I'm going to do it.". And it just never looked easy. And so. then finally I was like, "Okay, I'm. gonna have to like put some real work. into it." And then I started slowly. breaking it down and and and then once. you like break it into pieces and start. working on the pieces, then you're kind. of like, "Okay, it starts to feel more. reasonable.". >> Break it into pieces and start working.

on the pieces. What does that mean in. terms of climbing? So if we I mean I've. got this this uh model here of. >> type. So you know, and this is also a. metaphor for any challenge I have in my. life. >> But this is actually perfect because. it's right here. >> Yeah. >> So I scouted this in September of this. year. I did the climb in January. or. whatever. In September, we went and um. well, we had to like one make sure it. was possible before you sort of like. commit to it doing a whole TV program. We were kind of like, let's make sure we. can do this. And then they also had to. get all this sort of marketing material. You like get the photos with the. building, like all the stuff that.

becomes the trailer and whatever. And so. we went in September to sort of like do. the prep. And so we I basically checked. out all the different pieces. And so. anywhere where you see it looking a. little bit different, you know, it's. like this whole bottom part is like a. low angle slab. It's like punctuated. with these two little rubies, these. little like coin things or whatever the. clouds or whatever they are. And then. there the dragons on the corners. These. are all overhanging. Like each of these. eight blocks is like a big overhanging. thing. It feels a little bit different. Then you get up here, there's like these. balconies. These are actually. overhanging. Like basically each little.

segment of this is quite different. And. you know, obviously on this model like. looks looks the same, but um each. transition between the different pieces. is like a thing. So I checked out all of. them with ropes and and yeah, you just. go piece by piece all the way up the. whole thing. And you hadn't ever climbed. it before we saw it on Netflix live. >> Well, I hadn't freed it. No, but I had. climbed it. I climbed all the pieces. with a rope for sure. I'd like checked. out the different things. >> Okay. So, so you you look at these as. individual challenges every step. >> Yeah. It's like you go Well, even like. just getting off the ground, the first. move is a slightly different move than.

any of the other moves. You have to like. jump up to a thing and like press it. out. Um then climbing over these little. clouds is a different thing. Each dragon. is a different thing. Yeah. Yeah, I mean. it's just, you know, there's a. surprising amount of complexity to it. And so our first on the scout, you know, I had a note on my phone and I'm just. like writing down all the different. basically I'm trying to learn it the way. you study anything where I'm just like. making notes and sort of like from floor. 54 to 72 it feels like this. I climb the. southeast corner the left ar you know. just and then yeah just writing it all. down. >> and I mean there's this famous photo of.

you hanging with your leg. >> Yeah, that's this these are the rings up. here. >> So you're hanging you're hanging here. from here with your leg. Yeah. Now, I. this is really a question of endurance. Like, how do you plan to have the. energy? Like, how do you know if you're going to. have enough energy when you're up here. when you're just planning it? Well, >> I mean, what this this is what makes it. exciting because you can't be sure. But, you know, I've done a lot of climbing in. my life, and I've done a lot of climbs. that were like 24 hours. I mean, I had. this experience in Patagonia once. It. was a 54-hour push. Like, the last 20. hours we hiked without food um cuz we.

got caught in a storm. It's a whole. crazy story. But basically, you know, I've had a lot of experiences in my life. where I've done hard exercise for more. than 24 hours. And so this, you know, I. expect it to take me somewhere in the. hour and a half, two hour range. And I'm. kind of like, yeah, I mean, I'll be. tired after 2 hours of exercise, but I'm. not going to be exhausted. You know what. I mean? Like, I know that I have a much. deeper reserve than that. >> So much of the conversation around um. after you' done this, or some of the. conversation was around whether this was. a harder challenge than Al Capitan. >> No, no, it's obviously much easier. I.

mean, I'm doing on live television, you. know, it's like obviously it's easier, but what makes it cool is that it's. different. It's fun. It's challenging. Like for me, it's really like in my. sweet spot where it is challenging. enough like it's it's not easy. You know. what I mean? Like saying easier than. LCAP, it doesn't, you know, LCAP was. like a 10-year life project that I did. in absolute secrecy. I did it on my. terms on the correct day after years of. effort. I had failed attempts. I you. know what I like LCAP was like an. allconsuming life project for years kind.

of like obviously you can't do that for. live TV. It's like you just can't put. anyway. >> but this was very much in my sweet spot. where you're like oh it's hard enough. that it's that it's hard like it's cool. you know like it's fun it's interesting. the climbing is engaging it's you know. gave me something to train for for. months it's like it's super fun but it's. not you know it's not like the absolute. limit of what I can do because you just. can't do that on live TV. I mean, if. nothing else, so I was climbing the. southeast because it gets good morning. light and it looks beautiful and it's. like great for filming. But if I was.

trying to do the absolute most cutting. edge climb I could do, I'd be climbing. the northwest arette because it'd be. full shade because it'd be good better. conditions, you know, be colder. Like. you just don't want to be in the sun. It. makes your skin, you know, makes you hot. and stuff. >> Mhm. >> And [clears throat] so, you know, just. things like that. You're like, well, if. you're doing it for TV and you're trying. to broadcast it, then you want it to. look good. But like, if you're trying to. do it for hard climbing and good. conditions, you do in full shade. And. Netflix had a 10-second delay just in. case you fell. >> I mean, I'm sure part of it is in case. you fall, but part of it's like, what if. somebody unplugs one of the things or,

you know what I mean? Like, it's so. complicated. There's so much stuff going. on, it's insane. >> Was there a hardest part of this a part. where you were at all nervous? >> The thing I was most nervous about when. I started was were the bamboo boxes, like doing these eight overhanging. segments cuz they're just so. relentlessly the same move and it's just. it's pretty physical like you get tired. for sure. I mean, the actual physical. hardest moves, um, like actually. randomly one of these corners up here. would have been quite a hard move, but. there was this freaking security camera. bolted onto the wall. And so, you use. the security camera as this handle. It.

was really freaking cool. And it was. like bolted on with these giant bolts, so it like looked super safe and, you. know, it was like very robust and. secure, but it would have been kind of. like this extreme jump, which I wasn't, you know, it's probably possible, but. would have been like a major thing, but. instead you just reef off the security. camera. And I was like, that's so cool. It was uh so there are a few things like. that like individual moves that are kind. of muscly but overall it's the the. stamina like the challenge of doing this. over and over for hundreds of feet that. was the hardest thing. >> Do you have a conversation with your. with your girls and wife before you go.

and do something like this about just in. case you don't come back? I know the. >> not with the kids cuz they're too young. and like they wouldn't they don't. understand it anyway. Um and not with. her because she came with me to Taipei. or she was there for like the whole end. of I went a little bit earlier so I. could adapt to the time zone more and. like feel better. But um but basically. she was with me so you know like we went. to bed together that night and like woke. up that morning and had breakfast. together. So it didn't feel like a big. goodbye. You know it was kind of. actually she was with me at the base. like we did the start together and then. I literally was like okay bye and walked. over and did the thing and saw her again.

going to the top. So we were only apart. for like an hour and a half of the whole. you know like and I saw her through the. window a couple times and so it felt. like she was just there having the whole. experience with me. >> Did you look at other buildings in the. world like like the Burge? So, yeah, I've scouted the Burge twice over the. years. Um, back when this project, this. project almost happened in 2013 or. something and so I'd scouted some. buildings then. The Burge was just a. little too extreme. It's just too hard. But someday maybe, who knows? >> Cuz it's what? Like there's not enough. It's too slippery. >> Um, yeah, super slippery. Also, it's.

just the way the holds are. Like I mean, the beauty of Typo 101 is that the holds. like they're good things to hold that. are close together and you're just like. and you can hold them and you feel. secure. the Burge. I can barely span tip. to tip to like reach between the holds. >> And so then your face is like right. against the glass. You're like holding. on like this. And [clears throat] it's. pretty hard. And you have to do the same. thing 112 times in a row. It's like. pretty hard to do it once then you have. to do 100 times. You're like it's kind. of hard. >> The other thing that I saw um online. after you'd climbed it about one or two. days after everyone talk started talking.

about how much you were paid to do it. >> I think cuz you did an interview. >> It's funny. There were some quotes that. were kind of taken out of context. because yeah, a New York Times reporter. asked me how much I was getting paid and. I was kind of like I don't want to talk. about it cuz it's kind of embarrassing. cuz all my friends it's like an. embarrassingly high amount for my. community. Like in the climbing world if. you're getting paid to rock climb you're. like great success, you're getting paid. to climb. That's insane, you know? And. so I thought it was like sort of an. embarrassingly large amount. I'm like. this is kind of weird. But then he sort. of poked around and he started comparing. it to like boxing matches and stuff. where people get paid like $20 million.

to like fight someone boxing. And I was. like, "Well, [clears throat] no, compared to that, it's an embarrassingly. small amount." You know, it's like or if. you compare it to like major league. baseball contracts and things and it's. like, "Yeah, it's an embarrassingly. small amount, but I was never. complaining. Like, I thought it was. great. I mean, I would do it for free. I. mean, I've paid money to go up to the. observation deck. The observation deck. is way up here at the top and the view. is insane and the city's incredible.". And, you know, it's like 20 bucks or. whatever to take the world's fastest. elevator to the top of the building. And. you know, I've done that in the Burge as. well where you like pay the money and.

you go to the very top of the building. and the view is insane. It's like I do. that like anywhere I travel like the Se. the Willis Tower, whatever the Sears. Tower in Chicago. Like I've paid the. money to go to the observation deck and. see the view and it's so cool. And I'm. kind of like if someone's willing to pay. me to climb up to the observation deck, that's freaking cool. >> Yeah. I think it's because people again. they're they're saying that they believe. that this is you're risking your entire. life. Yeah. And and so yeah, they don't. think of boxes as risking their entire. life in the same way. >> They kind of are. >> Unless they are. Yeah. But they don't. see it as that. >> I know. Of course they don't see it as. that. And that's totally understandable.

I get that. But I see it as like anybody. going into the boxing ring, particularly. if they're very mismatched, you know, like you would think that there is some. real chance of grievous injury or like. death, >> you know? It's [clears throat] like it's. insane. >> And so I think that people over the. thing is I think people that don't know. anything about anything like don't know. anything about climbing look at me. climbing a building. They're like it's. 50/50 if he lives or dies. Like no idea. And you're like no. If you put this in. the context of all the things that I've. gone in my life, I felt very confident. that I wouldn't fall off the building.

You know, I was like, you know, obviously it's never 100% because like. whatever it's life, but you know, it. feels like 100%. You're like, oh, there's no chance I'm falling off this. building. >> The rumors were that you got 500k to. climb it from Netflix. >> Throughout my whole like, you know, quote unquote career as a climber, I. basically have never worried about money. and I've always just tried to do the. thing and let it all play out at the. end. And so I've done a ton of work for. free over the years. Oh, like actually. we were talking about that Halfdme film. earlier where it's like I'm shuffling. along. It's like I did that film for. free. I did tons of films like that for.

free. Uh just because you're kind of. like, "Oh, it's part of being a. professional climber and I get to go. climbing and I'm up with my friends. filming on a thing." You're just like, "You're working for free. It's fine.". But by doing all that stuff for free, like I never I never stress the day. rate. Never, you know, I was like, I. don't need to get paid to go have fun. with my friends on a wall. Like it's. fine. But as a result of that film, you. know, a year or two later, they wind up. doing a photo shoot out there for the. cover of National Geographic. And so you. just wind up in other things and then. and then that got seen and I wound up. being profiled by 60 Minutes, which. actually was one of the first sort of.

career inflection points. It was like. the 60 Minutes profile in 2011 or. something. But basically, I've done a. ton of work for free over my life as all. part of like it's all part of the game. and I just love playing the game. And so. you just like let it play out. And it's. funny because with this building, a lot. of people thought that I was sort of. underpaid by it, but afterward, you know, some people have approached me. about some bonuses and some other work. stuff and like basically a lot has. already sort of happened and it's only. been a couple weeks since the building. And I'm kind of like, you know, you. don't need to get paid for the thing. itself cuz it always works basically.

I'm kind of like I don't know. I'm like, don't get hung up on how much you get. paid. Just do the thing. Make sure it's. freaking rad and it all sorts itself. out. Yeah. Yeah. That I mean that's also been. like um the that's completely true for. my life as well. Even this podcast like. when we started the podcast in my. kitchen I mean this is a replica of my. kitchen and Jack was here. There was no. pay there was no payment when we started. it. >> You're just doing a thing. You make it. as good as you can and eventually it all.

sort of works and you're like cool. >> I've I because that that pattern you've. just described has played out for 15. years of my life. I now and again my my. CFO and my commercial director might not. love me saying this but they know this. about me is and we even talked about it. recently with a particular project is. like don't let the inability to see. where the money is going to come from in. the near term stop you pursuing. something that you think is going to. create value because history shows that. actually value like giving value out. into the world precedes.

the the e the economics totally. And so. if it happened 15 years of my life where. I remember when I started the social. media business and people some a guy sat. me down in Google in London and. explained to me why I would never make. money from that business. He like he did. the math for me and the math was solid. >> He was like if you do once a day you. won't make any money. And I was like. >> you're like yeah but I don't think. that's true. You know you're like. >> and you have no evidence but. >> yeah but you just know it's going to. work. >> Yeah. The Uber CEO sat here with me. yesterday in that scene and he was. telling me he was like the thing is.

there's this thing called Jevans paradox. where when yeah when become more. efficient whatever people think of. things in linear progression but. actually there's exponential. progression. So when we launched Uber. more people started taking taxis. So all. of the models about how big this market. were were all wrong. And I find the same. in that and I found the same in about 5. years ago was yeah like you set me down. and go well Steve CPMs you're going to. have to be getting a million downloads. to make like to earn a living like but. >> like wait and see.

>> Yeah thing and let it let it happen. >> I mean you're a prime example of that. >> Yeah. It's always better to focus your. energy on being the best at the thing. that you're trying to do than figuring. out how to monetize it or you know make. money off of it. It's like I don't know. I mean, my whole like life as a climber, I've always tried to focus on like how. do you send, which in climbing terms. means like do the hard thing. Like you. always focus on sending and then. everything else follows. >> Whoa. What's that on your face?

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mortality earlier on and um I think in. the last couple of years my mortality. like realizing that I'm going to die. someday has been such a a wonderful. thing to to really remind myself of and. like a frequent basis. >> What uh how come? >> Just because Okay, so there's many. things. One of them is um. the whole idea of like sunk cost bias. where you become successful at a thing. and you and now you have something to. lose. So people go into a state of loss. aversion where they start to protect. what they have. Totally. >> And this narrows your life in a way.

where you stop taking challenges, stop. taking risks, stop doing new things. >> And the other thing generally about. knowing you're going to die and really. like reminding yourself of that is it. liberates you from getting caught up and. worrying about things that in the grand. scheme of like cosmic reality are like. totally inconsequential. >> Yeah. >> I was I was hearing someone say the. other day like do you know the the name. of your great-grandfather? >> Do you know do you know his first name? >> Not really. And do you know the life. they lived and what they were worried. about and how they were embarrassed and. their shame. >> Yeah. Exactly. No, you don't know any of. that. >> And the point is like if you don't even.

know your own family's. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Like nobody else cares. Yeah. >> But even like extremely famous people a. couple of weeks after they trend on. Twitter and then a week later everyone. just like gets on with their life again. >> Totally. Well, I'm already experiencing. that with with this stuff, you know, like the building was like insane for a. moment, but now it's the Olympics and. there's a lot going on in the news cycle. and it's like the world's moved on. I'm. like great. I'll go back to just like. being at home with my family and. climbing as much as I can. >> Being at home with your family, you said. earlier that when you're in that van for. 10 years, you wanted a girlfriend. >> Yeah. >> Now, I'm not being funny, but people.

that fit your profile and uh to some. degree, people that fit my profile. struggle in intimate relationships for a. variety of reasons. And I think I. actually saw this in the documentary. when I watched Free Solo. I saw you had. a partner at the time. There was an. accident on the cliff side where you. fell and she was supposed to be. protecting you. >> Mhm. [clears throat] And generally I. just saw someone who probably is more on. the um less affectionate, more. commitment avoidant side of life. Is. that accurate? >> I don't know about commitment avoidant. because actually I have had long-term. girlfriends and things but but yeah,

definitely I'm like less expressive. I'm. less emotionally intelligent than my. wife. >> Has she ever given you feedback that she. wishes you were more emotionally. uh available? I mean, I get that. >> I mean, yeah. Yeah. in in different. words perhaps, but yeah, basically. >> Sonnie. >> Yeah, Sonnie. >> is her name. >> She wrote a letter. >> Oh gosh, >> that's funny because the first two words. are, "Oh gosh, an intimate letter out. loud.". >> Oh gosh, [laughter] she she does know.

me. >> Obviously, this is your worst nightmare, she said. >> That's She knows me so well. >> But we all have to do scary things. sometimes, Alex. >> Ah, my coach. She said, "I remember when you read a. book once about a woman who said she was. less affected by emotions than most. people. For her entire life, people. tried to convince her that she was. wrong, that she was suppressing her. feelings, but at the end of the day, she. just wasn't." As you were reading, you. turned to me and said something similar,

something like, "Everyone wants to. believe that I'm burying all these. things, these feelings deep inside, but. I'm just not." And I laughed and I. joked, "Don't worry. I know you're dead. inside. If I remember correctly, you. gave me a hug. But I've thought about. this conversation a lot because as the. person married to you, I spend a lot of. time trying to understand you. And while. there obviously are emotions that drive. you, I was mostly joking about the dead. inside part. I do think you are far less.

affected by some feelings like anxiety, fear, shame, guilt, or self-doubt than. many of us. But the longer I know you, the more I see an ocean of something. else hiding beneath the surface. Filling. the space that would normally be taken. up by all these feelings is the ability. to truly see things. You move through. the world like a hawk while the rest of. us are lost in thought. As a climber, you can see the way up a rock face, the. climbability of a building, or the. layered history of a mountain range. As.

a father, you notice the quiet intrinsic. desires of your daughters or the chores. that need doing around the house. And as. a friend, you see the raw potential in. every person that you meet. Sometimes. this is the hardest thing about you. Nothing goes unnoticed. Neither the. strengths nor the weaknesses, the. moments of dedication or the moments of. laziness. You are practical and blunt in. your assessment of your choices and our. lives. But that's also because you see. us. And paying attention is love. Your.

ability to see the world so clearly. allows you to also appreciate it more. clearly. And that is a special form of. your love. Perhaps there's a well of. emotion in there after all. But but for. the purposes of this letter, Alex, I. want to give you your gift back to you. and tell you what what I see. particularly in the last four years. since we had kids because I think the. way you move through the world with us. is a unique love story. I see you. rushing down the trail from the climbing.

area so you can get back in time for. dinner with me and the girls. I see you. flying the red eye so you can be home a. day sooner. I see you cramming in your. gym session even when you have a huge. goal on the horizon so that I have time. for my workout too. I see you pushing. your body to the absolute limit during. the day but still managing to stay awake. long enough to chat to me at night. I. see you taking on an extra day of travel. just to convince someone with money to.

donate to your foundation and help save. the planet. I see you adjusting your. whole training schedule for work. opportunities in order to provide a. wonderful life for me and the girls. I. see the insane juggling act you do every. day to not only be a great athlete, but. a great dad and husband. I know it's not. easy, but I see it and I appreciate it. We love you as you are, Alex. Not overly. emotional, but present, committed, and. always seeing what others miss.

Yours, Sani, she is very astute. I was like that's. I was like that's why I married her you. know. she is very astute. Yeah. I learned a lot about you from reading. this. >> H what do you think? >> You know we all show our love in. different ways and sometimes I think the. conventional way that the world tries to.

measure love is through the like verbal. expression of it and romantic gestures. and those kinds of things. But there's. another type of person who often. struggles, I think, in in what life's. expectations of what love looks like, who show it through acts of service. That was that was literally one of our. last big arguments about something like. in bed the other night, not like a total. blowout, but basically she was sort of. like, I just need more, you know, of the. verbal kind. And I was kind of like, I'm. literally doing all the things. And I. always sort of say, you know, actions.

speak louder than words. I'm kind of. like, if you're doing all the things, you're doing the correct things. you. don't need to talk about them because. you're doing the things, you know, and. that was basically a a back and forth. I. mean, you know, I took her point that. like occasionally you have to say the. right thing, too. >> Well, I have the same the same argument. on repeat with my fiance. >> H she needs the words, too. >> Yeah. She has like a different language. She's speaking Spanish. I'm speaking. French. >> Yeah. >> And also, by the way, I have to say at. some deep level, again, because of my. early context where like you, I wished. my parents would break up. I wish they.

would just get a divorce because the. model of love I saw was not a happy one. I think at some deep level I have a. commitment problem or an intimacy. problem where. >> even growing up say calling someone my. best friend somewhat made me cringe. >> Like saying saying affectionate words to. someone at some deep level made me feel. deeply uncomfortable. >> and so you can imagine me being ding and. then I think like often times we go for. the opposite in the person we end up mar. like marrying or. >> Yeah. Certainly for me. Yeah. >> Yeah. Well certainly. >> Yeah. My wife is like way more. emotionally intelligent than anyone in.

my entire extended family. >> Yeah, same. >> This is how you build a rich life is. that you basically like I mean it's like. hiring. You find members of the team who. have all the strengths that you need and. it's like the things that you can't do. and. >> it's like filling your blind spots. basically. >> Have you got better at saying the words? >> No. >> Any progress? >> Uh yeah, progress probably. But very. slow. But in a way that's great, you. know, because we're going to be married. the rest of our lives and so that could. be another 50 60 years together. And so. you need to see incremental progress, you know, because really there's nothing.

better in life than making progress. And. I've started at such a low point and I'm. making progress so slowly that I. basically have a good project for the. rest of my life. Oh, um, we kind of. touched on it before, but one of the. things that's been in front of mind for. me at the moment is, um, actually. something I saw in your personality. test, which was you were high in. perseverance. And, uh, we talked earlier on about like. mastery and how it's important to, um, persist to get good at something. But. this has just been front of mind for me. I think for a long time because even. like as a podcaster I realize that a lot.

of the game I'm like five years in now. and um when I look at someone like Joe. Rogan he's been going for like I don't. know 15 17 years. >> or more. >> and I go like so much of the game in. becoming great at something grinding. it's just going unusual amount of. >> it's like compounding interest. I'm like. look at Warren Buffett. Have you ever. seen stuff with Warren Buffett where. it's like, you know, it took him. whatever 40 years to make his first. couple million or whatever, took him. another like 10 or 15 years to make his. first billion and then it took him like.

whatever in the last eight years he's. made like hundred billion dollars, you. know, cuz his whole wealth is like woo. >> You're kind of like basically if you put. enough time into something and you let. it compound, it like slowly gets bigger. and bigger. >> It's exactly that. And so I've been. thinking about like. >> So all those numbers are incorrect, but. the the shape of the graph is correct. >> We'll put it on the screen so everyone. can see. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [laughter] Somebody. correct my numbers. The principle is. correct. >> It's the same. It's the same as this. graph here that you drew of your career. >> Um it's the same as the podcast growth. where three years no one was listening. and then we have this. >> Yeah. >> Um and I I think as a principle.

>> that's why you focus on doing something. of value because with the podcast like. if you feel like you're doing something. useful and that you think is cool and. you think there's something there you. just keep doing it and eventually people. get on board. >> Okay. So. on that train of thought, I've thought a. lot about how do I create the conditions. to outpersist other people in the areas. that I love. And one such thing, for. example, with a podcast is like never. have a conversation that I'm not looking. forward to. >> because that's unsustainable over the. long term. >> Totally. Cuz then it feels like hard. work as opposed to something like this.

is amazing. >> Yeah. So when I look at my they'll say, oh this person wants to come and they've. got 160 gazillion followers. >> But you're like I don't care about that. person. >> Yeah. Because if I if I use that as a. decision framework for the next 10. years, I'll quit. >> Yeah. >> Do you think about that like the. conditions to out persist in your. domain? >> I mean, kind of. Yeah. I mean, I haven't. had to think about it too much because I. freaking love climbing in all its forms. And so, basically, climbing comes. easily, but like in terms of the work. stuff I do, um I forget I think I was. talking to you before we started. recording, but um but I host this. podcast called Planet Visionaries. Uh.

it's like a Rolex Perpetual Planet. Like. I interview scientists and. conservationists and whatever. And for. whatever reason, every time I do those. podcasts, I come out of it feeling all. energized and like, I should train more. I should study. I should learn. something. Basically, because the people. that I'm interviewing are all so. uniquely good at what they do, and. they're all trying to save the world in. different ways. It's like, you know, marine biologists like exploring the. deep sea floor and things like that. Yesterday, I interviewed these two uh. women about the fact that we've only. explored .001% of the deep sea, which. represents twothirds of the planet. So,

basically, twothirds of the planet we. know like literally nothing about. And. there's like this rich underwater. world of like cool stuff going on in the. ocean floor that we've never seen and. know nothing about and it's insane. I. was like that's so cool. And I got all. fired up about it. And so I come out of. work thing, you know, quote unquote work. things like that and I'm like energized. and excited to learn and grow, you know, push myself and I'm kind of like that's. the type of work that I want to do as. much as possible. And then there are. other kinds of things where you know. I'll do like corporate speaking or. something where you show up at a. conference and you just like get ground. down you know when you leave and you go.

back to your hotel and all you can do is. just like lie there on the bed for an. hour being like h what am I doing with. my life you know you feel like kind of. wrecked. >> So it's like if you can focus on the. work where you come out of it feeling. inspired and like excited to try hard. versus the work that makes you want to. like mindlessly scroll on something for. hours. You know what I mean? Cuz. sometimes you're just like oh I'm just. so over it. >> Yeah. Someone said that to me in my. career. I said like whenever you find. domains that make you feel expansive. like. >> totally. >> you should double down on those domains.

cuz you're that's the path to mastery. You're going to be able to continue. >> Yeah. Because you can just keep pushing. super hard in that. >> thankfully for climbing that's always. just been that like I just freaking love. climbing. It's so great. You should do. it more. >> I know you you make us all want to climb. more, Alex. >> That's one of the I think the great um. consequences of watching you do. something like Taipei. I mean, there was. loads of kids in the streets of Taipei, I think, that were all trying to climb. buildings. There was loads of like funny. videos. Then, obviously, they were only. getting like a meter up before they. fell. >> I was like, hopefully they don't Yeah, hopefully it's not too much copycatting,

but yeah, we got some crazy numbers from. Netflix that I think half of people or. more than half of people who have a. Netflix subscription in in Taiwan. watched the building climb on uh it's. like in in Taiwan, it was like insane. Like, literally everybody watch. It's. it's such a it's such a singular. striking building in in Taipei. It's. like a total national icon, you know? It's like a it's it's insane. >> Have you already started thinking about. what you're going to do next? >> People are always like, you know, what's. your next big thing? And I'm kind of. like, you know, if you just focus on. doing lots of little things all the.

time, occasionally the big things just. happen and you can't totally know ahead. of time. You know what I mean? >> That's me. >> Well, so at least, so I mean, I have. climbing goals going back 20 years. I. have all these notes on my phone. I. always have like to-do lists. of. especially when I lived in the van and I. was traveling, you're like seasonally. moving between climbing destinations. non-stop. So I'd lay I'd layer out all. these different types of goals. Like I. want to do these types of things. Certain goals lead to other goals. because they're same type of fitness, let's say. So like doing really big. things help you do even bigger things. later, but doing like really hard and. intense things help you do other hard. and intense things later, you know? So.

in some ways in the way you stack your. goals, you can kind of build up to big. things or like build up to really hard. things or whatever. And so I've always. had running to-do lists of like I'm. going to try to do all these climbs this. year. And realistically, I normally do. like half of them or or some of them I. never even get to because it's like the. weather's not good. I wind up going to a. different area or I like don't go to. that that climbing destination at all. And so I never even try the project. But. I've always had tons of goals like that. And looking back at years and years of. that type of those types of lists, I.

just see that it's slightly hard to. predict when you're going to achieve the. things that are like cutting edge or. groundbreaking or whatever. You just. have to keep doing the things non-stop. and every once in a while some of them. rise to the top. I mean, this kind of. goes back to the same like value. creating things like you don't know. which things are going to be rad. You. just do all the things and some of them. wind up being rad. >> And the decision framework there is to. just do things you love and that. challenge you. >> Yeah. things that push you in a like. things that are new for you that are. hard for you that are challenging in the.

right ways, you know, but you just can't. you don't always know ahead of time. which of those things are going to stand. out or not, but you just do them anyway. because you're learning from them, you're excited about them, they're hard. and then, you know, some are cool, some. aren't. Some you never even try and like. that's fine. You just keep doing things. the CEO of Uber, Dario, was was sat. there yesterday and one of the um. contrarian pieces of life advice he. gave, which is kind of overlaid with. what you just said, is he said people. need to stop making young people in. particular need to stop making life life. plans. >> because it narrows them to the.

serendipity and opportunity and things. that might happen if they're broad and. openminded. >> Well, or um uh my wife and I sometimes. joke it's that we both have very strong. opinions loosely held where it's like, "Oh, I'm totally sure of a thing right. up until I get some data that shows that. that's wrong." And then you're like, "Oh, never mind. throw that away. And. that's kind of how a lot of my to-do. lists have always been or like my goals. where I'm like, "Oh, I have all these. goals." But if I take a slight fork in. my year where it's like turns out, uh, you know, for whatever reason, like. something else lines up and it makes. sense to do all these other things and. I'm just like right turn and just.

change. >> Mhm. >> You know, >> and it overlaps with what you said. earlier about like not worrying so much. about like how much it's going to pay me. today or what the big thing is or. >> it's kind of like just just keep doing. cool things. It'll it'll all work out. I. would love if we could, you know, scan. your brain and look at all the parts. It's especially in the context I learned. of about this particular region of the. brain called the anterior mid-sulate. cortex. >> Okay. >> Which I heard Andrew Hman been talking. about. And it's a part of the brain they. discovered quite recently that lights up. when you do things that you don't want. to do. >> So not things that you enjoy doing that.

are somewhat like difficult like running. a marathon, but things that you actively. avoid and resist but do anyway. Pain, fear, effort, discipline. This is the. circuit that decides whether you quit or. you push through. And it grows the more. you do things you don't want to do. So. it's like they now consider it to be the. muscle of willpower in the brain. When. they look at athletes, they have bigger. ones. When they look at people who are. >> struggling or less are more sedentary or. struggling with their weight, they often. have smaller ones. Anyone that avoids. discomfort has a smaller one. >> So um.

in your in the context of the way you've. lived your life, you've continued to do. things that are hard. I mean, you can. love climbing, but you don't necessarily. love. >> Yeah. But just doing like one more set. every time is like that's that's always. a challenge. You're always like my whole. body hurts but I'll just do a little. more, you know? >> Yeah. And I think the thing I guess here. is like about neuroplasticity which. there's going to be a ton of people. listening right now that are so far away. from their type A. >> from their type A 101. They're so far. away from that. They're in a job they. just don't like. They're maybe the. finance bra that you know you talked. about a second ago and their life is.

absent of ad adventure and they probably. look at you and go well you know he just. has something I don't have. I know, but. I just don't, you know, I mean, I've. structured my life in a different way. and I've made many different choices and. and all that, but that's the thing is I. don't really think I have anything. different. I mean, I I actually hate all. the like brain stuff because people. always like use that to to put me in. this box of like, well, you're. different. And I'm like, well, not. really. Like, I'm a middle class. suburban kid. Both my parents like. nobody in my family is athletic. Like, nobody is good at sports at all. You.

know, it's like like basically if you. were to like look at the, you know, like. if I was a video game character and you. were to look at all my little bars, you'd be like, "That guy's not going to. be an athlete. Like he's not good at. this." You know, it's like my parents. professors and we freaking read books. Like I'm not there's no aptitude for. anything really. >> And I was like bad at sports as a kid. I'm not good with balls. Like, you know, there's no reason. But I mean, really, I. just have loved climbing enough that. I've been willing to put in a tremendous. amount of time and effort and eventually. get good at it. And I'm kind of like to. hear people say like, "Oh, your brain's.

different." You're kind of like, "Well, everybody's brain is a little bit. different in some ways." It doesn't mean. that you can't devote yourself to. something that you care about. But with. this in mind, and with all the. neuroscientists that I've interviewed, your brain is different in part because. you've taken you've done different. things. And neuroplasticity says you can. change your brain right the way up. throughout your your entire life. One of. my friends, um, Tom Bilu is a good. example of that. He's a big podcaster. You might know Tom Bilu. Um, but he, you. know, he was, I can't remember the rough. age, but I'm going to say he was 30. years old. He was so, in his words, lazy.

that he would lay in bed all day. When. his girlfriend came home, he said he. would jump up out of bed just so she. didn't believe that he was in bed all. day. And he didn't want to be. embarrassed. And when he asked his at. the time girlfriend if if he could um. asked her dad if he could marry her, dad. said no. He was he just he was like lazy. down and out. Over the next 10 years, he. makes decisions to take on more. difficult challenges, builds a billion. dollar company, sells it. If you meet. this guy today, you'd think like. athlete, genius, super smart, motivated.

You'd beg him for advice on discipline. and motivation. Like he's that kind of. guy. >> What? Yeah. So, what did he do? >> He read a book about neuroplasticity and. he realized that he wasn't stuck. >> He he learned about neuroplasticity, which means that at any age in your. life, the decisions you make change your. brain. And that's why I love this. discovery of this anterior mid-syncular. cortex because it means that like maybe. in part the reason why I'm not taking on. my type A 101 is because I haven't taken. on my type A 101. >> Yeah. You have well you haven't taken on. uh your type A1. You know your type A.

your type A 12 or whatever. you know, like just the little pieces at the. bottom. Cuz that's the thing is like and. and actually this is why when you ask. about like any big goals, I'm like I I. sometimes I think the big goals are. slightly limiting because like if you're. your friend who's laying in bed, typo. 101 is not the appropriate goal. You. know what I mean? Like you need you need. to type a four. Like you need to just. get out and like do a little thing. You. need to achieve some success. you need. to see that you can do something and you. need to take on appropriately sized. challenges because I think having a. great white whale, you know, is is great.

sometimes, but that's not always what. you need, you know, >> and and partially like for me right now, you know, we're raising two little kids. and we're just like in the midst of it, you know, it's like bedtime right now is. hanging. It's just like it's a lot. And. I'm like, I don't need like an LC. capsized goal right now because, you. know, we're just trying to make it. through a certain phase of life really. Not to say that I'll never have other. big goals, but you're kind of like you. you want your goals to be appropriate to. the the time and and and space that you. have available. >> I had a psychologist say to me about.

this idea of just setting yourself a. type A1, like a small goal. The reason. why people don't do it is because they. see it as almost so embarrassingly small. that they don't think it matters. >> Yeah. But I mean, but that's why you. focus on it doesn't matter to you. Like. is it something that you haven't done? Like is it good for your growth? Is it. challenging for you? like it's good. enough. >> But that same psychologist told me that. when they were dealing with a patient. who was so demotivated um that they. couldn't get out of their bedroom which. was stacked to the ceiling with plates. and cutlery that day one was bringing.

the Hoover into the room. That was day. one. Day two was plugging it in. That. was day two. And by day 30 they're. outside. This is someone who was scared. of going outside. They're outside. walking around. The room is clean. But. he he said to me that people don't take. that first step because it's so. embarrassingly small that it's almost. shameful to say like today we're just. going to bring the Hoover in. Yeah, but. that's the thing is it's always better. to take a step than to not take a step, >> you know? That's Yeah. I mean, that's. how I've always felt with with all these. things. You're like, well, you might as. well go out and do the thing. Like, do. something. You remember at the beginning I was.

like, you don't let perfect be the enemy. of good. Like, you do the good thing, [clears throat] you know, cuz it like. it's like don't let perfectionism. you, you know? It's like that's. why I think you know Taipe A 101 if. that's kind of like your perfect goal. It's like don't let that hold you back. from going out and climbing Taipe A 4 or. Type A or you know like some of the. surrounding little buildings because. it's like you practice on what you can. Goes back to this point of perseverance. I read a quote many years ago that said. um greatness doesn't exist. Greatness is. just good repeated. >> I mean this is what I'm saying about. having lots of little goals is that I. would actually say that if you repeat.

good enough every once in a while some. of those are great actually but you just. don't totally know. You know, I noticed. that a lot like in my climbing life, like in the long arc of climbing, there. are tons of things I did in use where. like in a season I'd have like five or. six goals in use and I'd do all the. things and one of them [clears throat]. for whatever reason would wind up being. like that's rad and it would, you know, like makes climbing news and things like. that. And the other ones, you know, maybe less so, but you don't totally. know ahead of time which ones are cool. or not and which ones are going to stand. the test of time. At one point in the not too distant.

past, I held a speed record on every. major formation in use. Now a few of. them have been broken over time and but. those are the kinds of things where you. never really know like how long those. types of records will last cuz sometimes. you do them and then your friend comes. and breaks it the next season and you're. like cool and you go back and forth and. it's all part of a fun game and then. some of them you set a speed record and. it lasts for like 15 years and you're. sort of like oh I didn't realize that. this was going to be like such a. milestone. You know, >> it reminds [snorts] me of um the Steve. Jobs quote about how you can only really. connect the dots looking backwards in a. >> Totally. Totally.

>> Steve Jobs quote from his commencement. speech was, "You can't connect the dots. looking forward. You can only connect. them looking backwards." So, you have to. trust that the dots will somehow connect. in your future. Clarity isn't a. prerequisite for action. It's the reward. you get after you move. And that's. that's the thing I think cuz I do so. many interviews like, you know, when was. the moment you decided to be a. professional climber? And I'm like, there's no moment. Like, I just did the. thing for years and years. And now. looking backward, it looks like this. amazing arc, you know, but at the moment. you're always, you know, I spent years. being like, should I go back to college?

Like, do I need a degree? Like, and then. I spent a few years wondering if I. should go back and get like an executive. MBA or something or something because I. was like, I don't want to go back to. undergrad. I've been living in my van. for 10 years. And but you're kind of. like still, I need that validation. I. need, you know, I want to jump through. the hoops. And then really, it's only. now that I'm kind of like, I don't think. I need that. In part, I think the reason. why we um we so many of us get forced. into procrastination when we're trying. to connect the dots looking forward is. because we face these questions from. society which is like what's your plan? What's your career? What are you aiming. at? And we don't have answers. So, we. fill in the gaps. We have to say.

something to mom and dad. You have to. say like what's the plan for the future? You can't say nothing. No plan. >> Well, or you just say, "I'm living. I'm. just letting it play out. We'll just see. see what happens. It's going to be a. grand adventure." I don't know. I mean, I kind of hope my my kids feel confident. with that, you know, just kind of like, "Well, I'm doing the best I can. and I'm. practicing the things that I care about. and we'll see how it plays out. >> We'll see how it plays out cuz like. either way it's going to play out with. with me and them and everybody else. dying. You're like, you know how it's. going to play out at the end end. And so. you're kind of like the whole space up. to there is like, oh, you just try to.

fill it with as many things that you're. proud of as you can. >> It's a remarkably simple way to live in. a world that's increasingly complex, Alex. Hm. Well, I mean, it doesn't need. to be that complex, but this is why I think spending some. time in nature like helps remind you of. some of those sorts of things. This. company that I've just invested in, it's. grown like crazy. I want to be the one. to tell you about it because I think. it's going to create such a huge. productivity advantage for you. Whisper. Flow is an app that you can get on your. computer and on your phone, on all your. devices, and it allows you to speak to. your technology. So, instead of me.

writing out an email, I click one button. on my phone and I can just speak the. email into existence and it uses AI to. clean up what I was saying. And then. when I'm done, I just hit this one. button here and the whole email is. written for me. And it's saving me so. much time in a day because Whisper. learns how I write. So on WhatsApp, it. knows how I am a little bit more casual. On email, a little bit more. professional. And also, there's this. really interesting thing they've just. done. I can create little phrases to. automatically do the work for me. I can. just say Jack's LinkedIn and it copies. Jack's LinkedIn profile for me because.

it knows who Jack is in my life. This is. saving me a huge amount of time. This. company is growing like absolute crazy. And this is why I invested in the. business and why they're now a sponsor. of this show. And Whisper Flow is. frankly becoming the worstkept secret in. business, productivity, and. entrepreneurship. Check it out now at. whisperflow spelled w i s p r l o w.ai/. Steven. It will be a game changer for. you. If you knew that you only had one. week left to live and this was the week. and you could only do one last climb, you go back and recapture the record, go.

do our cap again, I don't know, a. different building, you have one week. and assume you're sufficiently prepared. for whatever the climb would be. What. would what would. >> So I'm allowed to do like cutting edge. futuristic things. >> Yeah. >> Oh, well then I'm like I don't know. I. mean the Burrish like it'd be insane. But um but no uh like the the free. triple in Euseite is like the three. biggest walls in Euseite. Uh. >> free triple. >> the so it's LCAP, Halfdme, and Mount. Watkins. Mount Watkins is kind of like a. halfdome sized wall that's further up.

valley. So it was the three biggest. walls in Euseite. So Tommy Caldwell and. I have free climbed the triple. The two. of us did it together with ropes, but we. like climbed the whole thing. And then. I've soloed the triple. So I've done all. three with ropes by myself. It was like. 18 or 19 hours or something of climbing. Um, but it's never been free sololed. Uh, I've freestolled Haft individually. and I've free sololed Alcap. individually. No one's ever free soloed. Watkins. But the idea of doing all three. in a day would be like I think totally. like next generation achievement. There. are certain things like that where I'm.

sort of like if I was starting over, if. I was like an 18-year-old who was like. trying to make it as a professional. climber nowadays and had a higher level. of skill than I do now and, you know, basically was like trying to do this. again. There things like that that would. be sort of like the obvious next. generation challenge. free solo, all. three in the same day. >> Yeah. Yeah, I'd probably take uh well, it take a bit under 24 hours probably. >> What is your training regimen to these. days? Is it go rock climbing a lot. today? I did a little workout in the. hotel gym this morning. >> Your hands are quite different. I was. They're quite big hands.

>> Well, that's I mean, you know, I think. like a stonemason just like grinding. away their whole life. I see you. You. have I don't know if people can see that. on camera, but you it does look like you. have very um. wide fingers. >> Yeah, my fingers uh have taken a lot of. abuse in their time. >> cuz I see you like putting them in in. between walls. >> Yeah, crack climbing. It's like you. basically put your fingers into a crack. and then you torque them. And so like. the side to side pulling uh does sort of. make your connective tissue bigger. >> And does that hurt? >> Yeah, it hurts.

>> It I was wondering when you're going. uphel when you're doing it well with. good technique, it it's not that. painful. Well, it depends on the type of. rock, but some rock is kind of sharp and. kind of painful. Um, but yeah, this is. this goes back to strengthening your. what's the part called in your brain? >> Anterior midsular cortex. >> Yeah, [laughter] exactly. That guy. I. mean, that's the thing is that even when. done well, climbing like it hurts your. fingers and toes, you know, crack. climbing when you're like jamming your. toes into a crack and you're torquing. them side to side and you're like. wedging your fingers in. I mean, when. you're doing it well, it has a pleasant. feel of safety to it cuz you can really. like lock into cracks and it feels. comfortable and you feel like you're.

swimming and you're like, "This is. beautiful." But when you really come. down to the sensations, you're still. crushing your bones into a crack like a. Star Wars. >> When I look at this kind of photo. >> where you're It looks like you're. hanging by one and a half hands. >> Yeah. >> And you're going to fall to your death. if you if your grip isn't. >> sufficient. It makes me think you must. have the world's greatest grip strength. >> Uh I definitely don't. >> I mean, well, you have your your grip. then. You can find out. >> what's below you there in this photo. Well, actually, so there is like a. sloping cliff thing below me. Uh, so I'm.

actually only like 30 ft off the ground, but if or 40 ft, but if you fell, you'd. bounce off and you'd go, you know, basically to where it looks like down in. the valley floor down there. >> Terrifying photo. >> It's funny, actually. Have you you. you've seen Free Solo? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Do you remember the the camera guy that. like can't look? Uh, the guy that's like. shooting the long shot on the ground, Mikey. He's a really good friend of. mine. I've done tons of things with him. He was he shot the Taipei clown as well. Um, Mikey was the photo assistant for. this photo. He was like holding the. photos and he did the whole shoot just. like. >> looking into the wall. Like he just.

never looked at any of the things. happening. Like Jimmy Chin was taking. the photo and Mikey was like did all the. the rigging and the lights and. everything and Mikey did the whole shoot. just like looking into his armpit like. looking the other way. He was like I am. not part of this. >> I would like to see his brain scan. >> He was stressed but he I mean he's an. elite climber himself and he's he's. amazing but like basically watching free. souling is stressful and nobody wants to. do it if they don't have to. When is in. all your career, when is the moment. where you were most scared? Where you. thought maybe you had pushed it too far? >> Oh, it's actually uh I've had several.

moments, but it's actually mostly with. ropes on. That's the thing is that. because when you're freestyling, you. generally keep it within a healthy. margin or you practice ahead of time, you know, basically because you're going. to die. You make sure that you can do. it. But when you have a rope on, you're. way more willing to push into the. unknown because you're kind of like, surely I'll get some protection. eventually. I'll just keep looking. I'll. keep looking. And so like I've had I was. on an expedition to Antarctica actually. um in 2017 and did a bunch of climbing. that was very extreme but like with a. rope but it was you know it's Antarctica. it's really freaking cold conditions are.

challenging the rock is crumbling. everything is scary and you just keep. hoping that it's going to get better and. it just keeps getting worse instead and. eventually you're sort of like because. the thing is having a rope on doesn't. mean anything unless you get good. protection which means you have to be. able to put gear into the rock and if. you can't find places to put gear into. the rock then you can go you know the. rope is 200 feet If you go 200 feet. without getting good gear, then you're. looking at taking a 400t fall before the. rope catches you. Uh, which is almost. certainly fatal, you know. I mean, if. you fall that far, even though the rope. will catch your corpse, you know, but. you're still just going to hit the wall.

after 400 ft, like you're screwed. So, anyway, my scariest experiences have all. been situations like that for the most. part. This is why I'm saying climbing, you get scared a lot. And our like that expedition we were. climbing basically day on, day off. Each. day we would go climb one of these crazy. spires and we'd have these experiences. where I'd be like so scared and then the. next day we would just sit in the tent. because it's Antarctica. It's like. really cold. You're in the cook tent and. I would basically just spoon Nutella all. day totally shell shocked like totally. like just completely traumatized and. then the and then you'd be like rested.

enough and you go out the next day and. do it again and we just did like day on. day off of like full trauma fear for the. whole trip and then we climbed. everything in the range. It was amazing. It was an incredible trip. >> So you do get scared? >> Yeah, I was so scared the whole time. Are there any techniques that are proven. to be effective for you to deal with. that fear? Like people talk about breath. work and. >> yeah, take some deep breaths, try to. compose yourself. I mean, I try to stay. rational, you know, like, am I in. danger? Cuz sometimes, like in this case. in Antarctica, I am actually in danger. Like, if I fall, I could die. Um, but.

often times you feel you get those. feelings of fear and you're not actually. in danger. You just it's your mind. running away from you. And so sometimes. you can sort of rationally re in a. little bit where you're like, "No, I am. safe. The protection will hold me. The. rope is, you know, my gear is good." And. then you just take a deep breath and you. just carry on. >> And do you visualize falling ever? >> Oh yeah. I mean of course. Yeah. I mean. you have to understand what the. consequences will be because I mean that. type of visualization is also how you. can know when you're safe because like. if you ever open gear and you're trying. to visualize like if I fall am I going. to hit the ground or is the gear going.

to catch me before I hit the ground? I. mean there often situations like that. where you're like if I fall am I going. to hit that ledge and break both my legs. or am I going to clear the ledge and. fall into free space in which case it's. totally safe. And so it helps to be able. to have a cleareyed visualization of, you know, because most people visualize. the worst case, like if I fall, I'm. going to die. And you're like, well, often times if you I'm talking about. with the rope, if you fall, you're going. to be fine. But it's important to know. the difference. >> So you don't avoid the confrontation. with the negative outcomes. >> No, because you're trying to avoid the.

negative out like you have to think. about it because how else do you. mitigate that kind of stuff, >> but you can't let that stop you taking. actions when the risk profile is okay. >> Yeah. Exactly. I mean, this is like a. whole rant about risk-taking and. everything, but like I mean, that's the. thing is you want to be taking the risks. that you want to take. And it drives me. crazy that nobody else thinks about risk. in this way because think of all the. people that like go out partying every. weekend and they get like kind of buzzed. and they drive home and whatever. And. it's like they're taking all kinds of. risk that they're not actually choosing. to take. You know what I mean? Like.

they're just choosing to go out and. party and have a good time, but then. they're like driving a little buzzed and. they're like, "No, it's fine." But. you're like, "No, obviously you're. taking a risk." or like you're putting. yourself into situations where you're. like in a vulnerable situation because. you're incapacitated because you're. drunk or whatever. And so, you know, you're putting yourself at higher risk. for crime, things like that. And so, you're taking risks, you just haven't. chosen to take those risks. I'm kind of. like, the thing with climbing is that. I'm choosing to take the risks. And I'm. pretty cleareyed about the risk that I'm. taking. Like, I mean, I'm not going to. say it's perfect, but for the most part, I think I have a pretty good idea of.

which aspects are dangerous, like when. the consequences are high, what will. happen if I do fall. You know, it's like. you try to think it all out as much as. you can. And I'm kind of like, how many. people in normal life actually think. through all the risks that they're. taking? And even totally sedentary. people who are like, "Well, I don't take. risk. I stay home and I play video. games." You're like, "No, you're at a. much higher risk of heart disease. Like, you're going to die from other things.". You know, it's like, and you're still. going to freaking die either way. That's. okay. I'm done ranting. I'm sorry. >> No, no, but it's really important. because you I think we are all taking. risks, but some of us aren't intentional.

about the risks we're taking. essentially. >> Well, that's exactly it. Like, even if. you take no risk, you're going to die. you're taking a different set of risks. And so people look at my life and. they're like, "Well, you're crazy. You're such a risk taker." And I'm kind. of like, "Well, at least I'm taking the. risks that I'm choosing and I'm choosing. them very intentionally and I'm pretty. careful about them and I mitigate them. as much as I can." I'm kind of like, "Well, can you say the same for the risk. that you're taking or, you know, I'm. sort of like the average person, I. think, doesn't think about risk as much. as they should.". >> And is there anything that you would. give them as a framework to help them be. more intentional about those risks? Is. there is it just. >> Well, it's like you're going to freaking.

die either way, so choose the things. that you care about and then do them. well. and do them well. Prepare. >> Yeah. Execute. Like have a plan, you. know, but don't just like take risk. willy-nilly. Like don't just get drunk. and go out and do a thing, you know, cuz. like that's stupid. Like that's not the. risk you should be taking, you know? Like don't put all your money on black. and just like hope, you know what I. mean? Like basically don't just like. roll the dice. Like don't let fate just. like roll the roll the dice with your. life. Like make choices. >> And free soloing is, you know, there's a. bigger existential risk with no margin.

for error. But [clears throat] um. >> but it's very intentional. >> Very intentional. Drinking as as a risk. is like a volume knob. The more you do. it, the more the risk increases. >> And the other one is kind of like an. on-off switch, which you can you do it. today. And. >> yeah. So grip strength. >> I wouldn't be even a little bit. surprised if you can pull that more than. I can actually, but I mean we'll both. try. >> Okay. This is a grip strength meter. >> Um okay, so let's see. We're at zero. Um. kilograms would be extra small then. Uh, I mean, the thing with these like, okay,

actually, let me just preface this with. like I've had tons of people be like, "Well, surely you're going to break the. machine." I'm like, "No, because for. climbing, you you just have the strength. that you need to do the things that. you're trying to do.". >> And how much do you weigh? >> Um, right now like 165. >> 165, >> which is actually basically the heaviest. I've ever been. Maybe 163 if I'm lucky. right now. >> So, 165 lbs in kg is equivocal to 75 kg. roughly. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Go ahead. >> [clears throat]. >> 49 or 50 49.9.

more. It's just like. Yeah, 49. You know, >> those are just kind of like it's just a. it's just a different thing. You know. what I mean? Like that's not climbing. >> 49 kg in pounds is. 108. Interesting. >> Yeah, let's see yours though. But yeah, like I said, >> different arms. >> Uh it's about the same with both hands. It should be. >> 62. >> Yeah. See, there you go. >> I can't lift my body weight. Like. >> I might be able to like Yeah, I mean I.

might be able to muster a little more in. it, but. >> 63 on that one. >> Let me try again. >> But like I don't I don't think uh Do you. work out? Like you do weights and stuff? I. >> I lift dumbbells, but I'm not doing. anything grippy. I curl and stuff, but I. don't do anything grippy. >> I know. I'm at 50 and a half. >> How many pull-ups can you do? >> Don't know. But I can. Yesterday I did. uh I did a couple one- arms like uh like. Yeah, I basically pull-ups. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Which is very hard. >> Yeah. I don't think I can do one arms. >> Yeah. Well, that's the thing. That's why.

grip strength stuff you're kind of like. nah. Or actually, so um like have you. done weighted pull-ups in a gym? >> Weighted pull-ups? No, I just do I'll. just do my own body weight and I you. know I weigh a lot. So I'm like. deceptively heavy. >> Really? Like. >> very dense? >> Very dense. Cloat in water. No, like big. bones. >> You just sink straight in the bottom. How how much kilograms do you think I. weigh? I mean, in pounds, you'd know it. But this is. >> Well, now I'm now I'm guessing. I don't. know. Like, now that you're saying that. you're big, I'm like I don't know, maybe. 185 or something. What? >> I'm 211. >> Yeah. With actually So, that's another.

thing with grip strength is like it. makes sense that your grip strength is. proportionally. I mean, you're like 25%. bigger than me. >> Yeah. >> Like, you know, basically. >> Yeah. >> So, it's like you would expect it to at. least 25% stronger right there just. because like if you can do body. weightight pull-ups, you're going to be. much stronger. >> Yeah. Right. >> We have um we have a closing tradition. on this podcast where the last guest. leaves a question for the next guest not. knowing who they're leaving it for. >> And the question left for you is oh. what do you want to achieve in your life. outside of your mainline job that you.

haven't yet achieved? I don't know. I mean that seems there. basically two other avenues that I care. about in my life. Uh you know my family. I want to be a good dad. I want to make. sure my kids grow up to be healthy, welladjusted people that, you know, like. live their best lives. And then I have a. foundation that supports community solar. projects around the world. And I'd love. to see that thrive. I mean, basically, I. mean, you know, we give as much as we. can to to solar projects around the. world. And I'd love to see that do more. >> On that point of your foundation, what. is what is the sort of the thesis there?

You want to for solar projects? >> Yeah. Yeah. Solar it's basically energy. access around the world. >> Okay. >> Yeah. I think now we've given I don't. know over 13 million to something like. over 100 partners around the world. Basically like small scale community. solar projects. So people getting access. to energy for the first time. Um. basically using solar for anything. ranging from light to you know say food. refrigeration to pumping water. I mean. whatever whatever people need energy for. which is basically everything. 13 more than 13 million across 130.

projects in 30 countries impacting. 650,000 people and creating 1,200 plus. jobs protected 15 million acres of. biodiverse forest as well. Yeah, some of. those things are sort of like the the. secondary and tertiary benefits where. it's like when you empower certain kinds. of communities then they're better able. to take care of their lands and things. like that. Some of that has to do with. indigenous sovereignty and things like. in the Ecuadorian Amazon and and places. where it's like when the local people. have power suddenly they can protect. their land from illegal logging, illegal.

mining, things like that. And so then. you wind up having this knockoff like. environmental benefit that's like also. great in addition to the human aspect. where you're like, well, these people. are living better lives and it helps. save the planet. >> And you're giving away roughly a third. of your wealth to cover the majority of. the foundation's overheads. So yeah, I've been given roughly a third of my of. what I make every year uh since 2012. And uh that's basically just sort of. coincidentally tracked with the overhead. for the foundation. So it just means. that anything that people contribute. goes straight to projects because I.

basically cover all the staffing and. everything. And. >> how does how does one contribute to. that? >> Uh honoundation.org is the easiest way. you can support directly. I mean you can. see all the projects that we're working. with. >> and donors can go there if they want to. contribute to this. So they can go to. the website. Okay. Well, I'll link the. website below and if anyone is. interested in continuing to support the. great work you're doing there. Um I'd. highly recommend they go and make a. donation. It's a it's also just a way I. think to give back to you as a person. for the inspiration you've given so many. of us. >> I appreciate that, >> you know. >> Yeah. I mean to me the foundation has. always been my attempt at doing.

something useful cuz like I love rock. climbing. I think it's so fun. But in. the grand scheme of things it doesn't. really matter in the world. And I feel. like the work that we're doing through. the Han Foundation, at least material. improves the well-being of of other. humans, you know, like it actually has a. real impact both for the environment and. for people. Well, I don't know, Alex. I. I think watching you climb Taipei and. watching the millions of people all. around the world climb Taipei was an. expansive moment for all of us because. it all it holds a mirror up to us in a. really inspiring way and goes, "What.

obstacles can you overcome in your. life?" And. >> um the many many millions of people now. have that visual and sometimes it is an. absurd visual that does that and it's. most memorable like it etched into their. brains and that means that they in their. own life are looking for their own type. A1 ones or type A7s or type A 101's and. if you play that forward as like a. ripple in the ocean of how people are. going to strive and maybe live more. intentionally maybe maybe it does really. really matter. maybe the whole. conversation which was like my entire. Twitter feed for days and days and days.

of people saying this is a miraculous. human achievement. it there's like that's the first half of. a sentence the other half of that. sentence which we never really hear is. like so now what can I do mhm and that. [clears throat] is a profound thing well. that's definitely the best frame like. that's the framing that I hope for and. that's you know but I think that's like. the best case scenario for my climbing. and like I I hope that that's how people. take it but I will say that the work. through the hauntation at least has a. direct material impact immediately and. you're kind of like oh you don't have to.

hope for ripples or anything. You're. like well this person can now read after. dark for the first time ever and you're. like that is gamechanging. If anything. you know I've been talking a lot about. like action speaking louder than words. and I'm like yeah I hope to you know. like it's great if the climbing I do. inspires people like that's all good but. at some point you just do a direct thing. that actually helps people's lives too. >> And you're doing both. >> Yeah. Yeah. Aspiring too. Doing my best. >> The tangible and the intangible. >> Alex, thank you so much. Thank you. Amazing conversation. >> Thank you. >> YouTube have this new crazy algorithm.

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