The "Happy Life" Scientist: How To FINALLY Beat Stress, Worry & Uncertainty! Dacher Keltner | E219

Life expectancy's been declining in the. last few years. How do we reverse that trend? These are the five safest things to do. Dr. Dacher Keltner. A renowned expert in the science of. human emotion. Discovering ways on how we can improve. our happiness. He's also the author of several books. including The Power Paradox. I read just someone touching you can. make you live longer and be less. stressed. Is that true? Yeah. There are all kinds of findings. that speak to this. You have premature. babies, they used to just put them in. these little units that warm them and.

they would die. And then they figured. out they needed skin-to-skin contact. like you need food and they live. They. gain 47% weight gain. You know, the. deepest craving we have is to be. appreciated by other people. If you want to be happy, practice. compassion. And if you want others to be. happy, practice compassion. If I am kind. to you, my act of kindness makes you. more kind downstream. And then that. person you've helped actually is kinder. to another person. And they've proven that before? Yeah. So like karma is a very real.

thing. It's very real. That'll save 8-10 years. of life. You've got to find a few. moments just to be kind. Are we worse people the richer and more. powerful we become? Yeah. So we've actually done. experiments, right? You know, it's a. movie about a child with cancer and. poorer people show activation of vagus. nerve which is part of compassion. Well-to-do people, less activation. The. wealthier you are, the more you navigate. it for. serious economic policies that hurt the. poor. Jesus. And this is where it gets really. worrisome.

I just want to start this episode with a. message of thanks. A thank you to. everybody that tunes in to listen to. this podcast. By doing so, you've. enabled me to live out my dream but also. for many members of our team to live out. their dreams too. It's one of the. greatest privileges I could never have. dreamed of or imagined in my life to get. to do this, to get to learn from these. people, to get to have these. conversations, to get to interrogate. them from a very selfish perspective. trying to solve problems I have in my. life. So I feel like I owe you a huge. thank you for being here and for. listening to these episodes and for.

making this platform what it is. Can I. ask you a favor? I can't tell you how much um you can. change the course of this podcast, the. the course of the guests we're able to. invite to the show, and to the course of. everything that we do here just by doing. one simple thing. And that simple thing. is hitting that subscribe button. Helps. this channel more than I could ever. explain. The guests on this platform are. incredible because so many of you have. hit that button. And I know when we. think about what we want to do together. over the next year on this show, a lot. of it is going to be fueled by the. amount of you that are subscribed and.

that tune into this show every week. So, thank you. Let's keep doing this, and I. can't wait to see what this year brings. for this show, for us as a community, and for this platform. Dacher, could you start by giving me your. professional. academic resume? Uh. well, well, that it begins early with my. parents who were, you know, very.

important in my education and my. formation. So, my dad is a visual artist. and my mom taught literature and poetry. and romanticism and got me interested. in, you know, all ki- all kinds of things. about the human mind. Um. and then I was at UC Santa Barbara as an. undergraduate. Uh and then went to. Stanford for PhD. Subsequent to that, worked with Paul. Ekman as a postdoc, who's. kind of a pioneer in the study of facial. expression. Uh. and inspiration for the show Lie to Me. Uh and then became a professor.

Uh Wisconsin, uh and then UC Berkeley for. 27 years and. helped run the Greater Good Science. Center, which is about disseminating. kind of the new knowledge of meditation. and compassion and stress to. uh. a broad audience. And um have taught at. Berkeley, which I love, for 27 years. You referenced there the Greater Good. Science Center. Yeah. What's the What's the mission of the. Greater Good Science Center? Yeah, thanks for asking. You know, um 20.

years ago. uh post 9/11, um you know, we were in a. world much like post-Trump and uh Boris. Johnson and others, you know, like are. we are we fragmented? What happened to. humanity? Um what happened to community? Um why are um life expectancies in the. United States dropping the last 2 years? What's going on, right? that. Yeah, striking, right? Really. disturbing. Um. and we had the conviction and there was. this new science of things like.

if you have strong social ties, it adds. 10 years of life expectancy to your. life, right? If you practice kindness, um it quiets down the threat regions of. the brain. And so we at Berkeley. in partnership with the journalism. school kind of had the sense early like. if we can get this knowledge out, right? In actionable. prose where you read it and you say, "Oh, I could teach breathing to my. my medical team or I could teach an awe.

walk to my neighborhood friends. Uh that. would be good for the world, you know? Um. I'm I'm super compelled by that. Thank you. The Greater Good Science Center. Can you. Let's talk about some of the things that. you've you've given away in terms of. knowledge. Yeah. And some of the sort of discoveries that. I think would surprise most people. You. mentioned some of them in passing there. Yeah. About breathing and awe walks and um how. you can add 10 years to your life. Yeah. What Give me some of the top-line um. more detail on some of those top-line. findings.

This really comes into focus for me, Stephen, when I speak to medical. audiences. I do a lot of work with. health care providers. Um you know, teaching medical doctors, residents, uh helping programmatically with. kind of the spirit of hospitals and the. like. Um I talk about uh awe, that the. feeling of awe. um reduces activation in the. inflammation system in your immune. system. Your immune system is all these. cells distributed throughout your body.

that helps you. protect against. dangerous elements on the outside, viruses and bacteria. And the feeling of. awe. sort of reduces the activation of the. cytokine system, which heats up your. body. And if your body is always hot, that is bad news for your heart. It's. bad news for your diabetes. And awe. helps moderate that. I. you know, I teach the work on compassion. that, you know, 65-year-olds. who practice altruism and compassion.

have greater life expectancy. Um, you. know, and and you can go on. Each of. these. what used to be thought of as kind of. new age soft things like awe or. compassion or breathing um benefit us. You know, just simple breathing, if you. breathe in and out counting to four as. you breathe in, counting out to four, actually increases neural density in the. this part of your brain, the prefrontal. cortex, which helps you handle stress.

What is awe for someone. Yeah, awe is just feeling an emotion you. have when you encounter something big or. vast that's outside of your frame of. reference right, of reality, that you. don't understand. That I I think I like. the word mystery. Uh you know, wow, who I can't figure. this out. And and then that emotion of. awe stimulates wonder, right? Like, how. do I. why do peop- why do. rainbows exist? What you know, how are. they produced when water when light.

bends through water molecules? So, it's. it's an emotion that drives wonder and. creativity. What is the. um positive net impact on humans of. experiencing awe? Other than cuz when I. think of war I think of going to like. Machu Picchu and seeing those big. mountains and going what the hell is. this? This is insane. And I think of. that as being like a memory. Oh, that's. fun. That was amazing. I take the. picture, yeah, put it on my Instagram, get the likes, go home. Yeah. But there's something deeper going on, right? In one's physiology.

Yeah, thank you. You know, one of the fascinating things, Steven, when you're, you know, is when you study. this complicated realm of emotion, is we. have these words that we all use to talk. about an emotion and they're much as we. have words about, you know, ethnic. categories or class categories. Oh, he's. lower class or he's. he's African-American. Those are just. words and concepts that may not capture. reality at all. And awe.

suffers from this, which is when people. talk about awe or they share it on. Instagram, they show they share the big. moments of like, I was at the Grand. Canyon or I was in the Lake District or. by this cathedral. Um, but in point of fact, you know, there are a lot of ways in which we feel. awe. all the time, right? Uh, encountering somebody who's really. kind in the streets. You're like, "Wow, that was really generous.". So, yesterday on the train, the team. were coming up to Manchester where I was. speaking. and an an elderly lady overheard them.

saying that they were going to climb a. mountain for charity. The elderly lady. got up, walked over, gave them £5 and. said, "I climbed that once. Here's £5. Put it towards the the charity.". Mhm. And for all of us, it went into our like. company chat that that had happened. It. was a real moment of like an affirmation. of what it is to be a human and. kindness, I guess. Yeah. And what's stunning to me, and. this is a a digression, is your story. just gave me the chills. And that's. amazing. It's incredible, isn't it? It is incredible that I wasn't there. I've just got the chills myself. Just. Just you saying you had the chills has.

just given me the chills. It's amazing. And that we don't. understand scientifically the contagious. power of chills and awe. but you know, awe. it it it's not the stereotype that we. are led to understand or think about. with words, it's around us all the time, right? The generosity in the train, the. beautiful clouds, a piece of music, a. visual design, you know, driving here to. your studio, all the incredible design. of London, it's around us. Um and so it's there every day and you. know, Stephen, I.

I'm not a. I don't know why this happened to me, but I've taught happiness to hundreds of. thousands of people online and in. classes and the like. I was a grouchy. kid, stressed out most of my life, terrible meditator, but I was forced. into this job, and you know, serving the. science of happiness we've been talking. about, man, 2 minutes of awe. every other day. is about as good for you as anything you. can do, you know, it calms stress, calms. stress regions of your brain,

talked about inflammation, it reduces. inflammation, activates the vagus nerve, which is this bundle of nerves that. wanders all throughout your body and. calms your heart rate, it's good for. digestion, so. you know, it's good news for the human. psyche. And when we talk about. giving a little stressed out. 12-year-old, young 12-year-old some awe. each moment in a classroom, we know that's really good for health. and creativity. So, it it's good news in terms of what it.

can bring to us. Talk to me about some some science then. and that supports that um assertion. where. Yeah. the science shows that everyday awe, so. like accessible awe. Yeah. The awe that I could go get out in the. street or that I could actively go. practice after listening to this. conversation has proven to have a. positive physiological impact on humans. or their emotions or their behavior. Yeah. Yeah, you know, this was one of the most. exciting developments of the science of. awe.

Um. when we started to get this picture of. the health benefits of awe, less stress, a sense of time, reduce loneliness, right? Loneliness, 40% of people in globalized cultures. feel lonely, right? That is hard on the. body. We started to think about awe. interventions. Um and, you know, one of. my favorites uh. that has compelling health data, if you. will, is. um. a lot of people go for regular walks.

The UK is famous for its its walking. traditions, you know, it's one of the. great cultural strengths, you know, just. paths and, you know, and walks and, you. know, and etc. and and uh so, we just. added one element to. people's regular walk. uh and we called it the awe walk, which. is when you go out, pause, take some breathing, deep. breathing, get synced up with your. footsteps. This is a classic kind of. walking meditation approach. And then.

look for awe, right? Look Take a moment. to look at small things, look at the. reflection on this cool mug, then pan. out and look at, you know, the vastness. of where you are, city or nature, up at. the sky. That was it, right? And that. gets you into this awe mindset and our. participants were 75 years old or older. Um at that age, a lot of data suggests. you start getting more anxious and.

depressed, right? Your people you love. are dying. Your body's falling apart. You are facing your mortality. And the. awe walk over eight weeks, once a week, compared to a really rigorous control. condition, led our 75-years-old participants to. feel less distress, less pain, and more awe and joy in their. lives. So, it's just this simple. addition to a daily walk, right? Um.

listening to some music, do it more. intentionally. And and a lot of the studies of awe. are really simple, you know, just watch. an awe video, share an awe story, which. you shared to me that just gave me the. goosebumps, you know? That goosebumps. is a register, it's these little muscles. around hair follicles that are part of. what are called what are called your. parasympathetic autonomic nervous. system, which calm you down. So, share. stories of awe. So, so there's a ton of. ways in which you can build more. everyday awe into your life. What's the evolutionary basis for this? Um.

the. you know, in 1978, I think, Richard. Dawkins published Selfish Gene. Mhm. Massive book, right? You know, if you read that, it's it the. argument which is true, is that we we. are the we have these genes that are. replicating themselves through us. We. are these machines that replicate genes, right? Uh and all of our characteristics. are ways to do that. And and it's all. the language is very aggressive and. adversarial. These genes are competing.

with these genes. I'm competing with. other people in the game of evolution. And there's been this massive shift in. evolutionary thinking in the past 40. years, where. you know, we're just starting to. discover, you know, around the world, people share 40 to 50% of a resource. with a stranger if asked, just like as a. default. That's our intuition. Um we. have neurophysiological systems like. oxytocin parts of the brain and the. vagus nerve, which help us sacrifice and. give. Um we readily.

are contagious in our feelings. Your. story gave me the chills. And then my chills bounced back to you. and you got the chills. So, we're united. and connected. And now, you know, it it. the thinking is we're very cooperative. alongside violent and rapacious and the. like and and collective. We're. hyper-collective. Um we synchronize with each other. physiologically. We mimic each other. We. collaborate unlike any other primate.

We're We're That's just who we are. It's. probably our big strength. Um I think because in part um. hyper-vulnerable offspring needed a lot. of care, right? To live. Food scarcity, warming in the face of. cold. And we need emotions. and social practices that make us feel. like we're collective. And awe. is it. When You know, it's It's so. striking, Stephen. I don't know if. you've had an awe experience in nature. recently.

Just being outdoors. Oh, yeah. I mean, yeah. So, I went to I. went to Bali in Indonesia to write my. book in Ubud. And that's one of the the. places where I mean, you're in a. a vast jungle. But also, when you. whenever you get to the top of a. mountain, you look out across the. jungle. And I remember one particular. moment looking out across the jungle, stood on this platform that was. awe-inspiring. Yeah. Um but also, I It's quite weird that I. My My awe-inspiring experiences in that. country are always just being on the. moped and going through the countryside. Yeah. Because there's because it's this It.

feels like the essence of nature. There's something about I don't know. what it is. There's There's just. realness to it that makes me. feel like I'm at home. Mhm. It's hard to explain, but. And that's. feel like you're at home, right? And. it's striking. Think about it. conceptually like here I am on a a moped. in nature with you know, the. the ecosystem's kind of moving into my. body and my brain. And out of that comes. the concept I'm home. And that's what awe does is it says I'm. part of this people, right?

The other time was actually last week. I. was at Soho Farmhouse, which is a sort. of like a. uh like a hotel village they've. constructed where you can go on the. weekends to be in nature. And it was. actually walking back to my cabin. I. looked up up for the first time. And. obviously, when you're in the. countryside, you get to see the stars. In London, you don't have that luxury. And I looked up and I saw the stars and. I started talk like having a mental. conversation about what that is, like. what I'm looking at. That is a I mean, that one over there is a bigger than.

planet Earth and it's I'm basically this. tiny little into seemingly insignificant. piece of irrelevant dust. And that made. me feel a sense of awe. The feeling is really. because I am so small, I am part of this bigger thing. Like. you know, when you don't look up and. when you're looking down, let's say, figuratively, there's a sort of an individualism, whereas like it's it's me. I am I'm the. center of the universe. When you look. up, you realize that you are irrelevant,

but therefore also part of this greater. thing, I guess. Yeah, thank you for bringing that up, you know. And one of the simple. actionable things that were we've been. teaching at Greater Good, we we have a. practice on this is look at the sky. Just like look up, take a minute. If you. ask the average citizen in a city like. London, when's the last time you looked at the. sky? They're like. Yeah, I don't see it. Yeah, and it's powerful. Yeah, the you. know, one of the paradoxical qualities. of awe and and is this. shift, this transformation in sense of.

self that you're talking about and it's. profound, which is, you know, in the. in one of the early writing traditions. around awe, which is spiritual. journaling, a lot of people, early accounts of awe. in the Bhagavad Gita and Julian of. Norwich and you know, the great. Christian writings, almost every. spiritual tradition, the Buddha, uh it's. this like, "God, I'm having this. ecstatic awe mystical experience. What's. it like?" And they write about the the.

self just like vanishing, you know. Um psychedelics has a rich tradition of. ego death in it. Carl Sagan, you know, has this great statement about space. like yours, like "Man, when I think. about the universe. look at me, I'm just this. Yeah. Yeah. I'm a little speck of dust, you know? But the self is huge in our minds. Yeah. And awe. quiets it. It puts it into perspective. And what's striking, Stephen, which I. you know, it took us a long time to. figure this out scientifically, is.

it actually feels liberating, you know? Oh, it's the Do you know what? When I'm. stressed, I I remind myself of how. insignificant I am. Because stress is. often the like the um the like the fatal. decision to overestimate the. significance of your your your problems. Like relative to you know, to whatever. But the other day I was I was a little. bit um I was overthinking something a. lot, and I could feel myself getting a. little bit stressed. And. I rem- I reminded myself of looking down. on a plane.

Yeah. over a country, and just how irrelevant. I am in the grand scheme of things. Because of Well, you know, I became a. dragon on the on Dragon's Den, and. the podcast became bigger. You know, it's it's easy sometimes to fall into. the trap of when there's a lot of people. talking about you or writing about you. to to to think that this is the center. of the universe in some respect. I'm leading a a movement of 2 million. people. but whenever I go up in on a in a plane, and I look down, I go nothing that I do. is really mat- matters in a good way. Yeah. It's funny cuz it's a paradox. It's like.

I want to be empowered, and I want to. think that I matter. Yeah. But at the same time, I I I I like to. realize that I absolutely don't matter. in any respect. And I love saying this. to people because it you can see ego. square. Yeah. When you go When you put in context that. we are as an an individual. we absolutely don't matter. You know, in. the in the millions of whatever billions. of years that the universe has existed, we are just this blink. And I'm just. this irrelevant speck of dust. And once I'm gone, you know, give it. another million years, no one's even. going to remember. Yeah. Or whatever. Probably couple the couple.

of years, but. But that's what's great about art and. the human mind, right? Is we we need the. ego and the self, and we need to. maximize our interests and desires and. reproductive possibilities etc. status, you know, all that. obsessive stuff. But man, we have this. great realm of transcendence that awe is. part of that, you know, and in our. studies, you know, we we literally we. took students up to this tower on the UC. Berkeley campus. They got to look out at. the and they no longer felt stressed. about things. We had students look up.

into trees and just admire these We have. a lot of tall trees on campus in I hope. you visit it sometime that are beautiful. and tall and make you feel like you. know, there we have redwood trees that. are a thousand years old, you know, that. oh, this little moment of consciousness that. is so self-critical or. or stressed or or. ego maniacal is just a moment in time of. seven nine billion people.

It's you know, for me. personally it was liberating to find. this in awe like like you're saying like. this is all this is just one human's. effort. So. Why did you write this book? Of all the things you could have written. about, you're a very smart individual. You've studied so many things relating. to sort of social sciences and how. humans behave and why we why we do what. we do, but to commit your life to. writing a book about this subject matter. Yeah. is writing books is not easy. Yeah. Takes a long time, a lot of effort. You. have to promote them etc. Why this book?

And why now? Yeah. Thank you for asking that. Um. Yeah, you know, um. it is hard to write books and we had. done a lot of research on awe and. you know, one of the reasons I wrote the. book was. um. you know, I'm now at an age where I've. been following how we're doing as. cultures and. and a lot of the things that have. surfaced here, Stephen, are true. Like,

you know, people feel lonely, they feel. um um. adrift. They're searching They're. searching for something more meaningful. than. elevating a paycheck. And And I felt. that awe was part of that story. That awe gets us to what is meaningful. to us as individuals at a moment in. history. Um and then. uh my younger brother died. And he. um. he was He was born.

uh I'm 1 year older. We had this wild childhood, you know, of. like born in Mexico and. raised in the late '60s in Laurel. Canyon, a very experimental place, wandering the foothills of the Sierras, and. and uh. he was. my source of meaning in many ways in. life. Um. and he got colon cancer and died. And it was brutal and horrifying. And at. the moment of his dying. uh the last night he uh sitting by his.

bed. and um and he he was my moral compass in. life. You know, he really He was very. courageous. Super kind. Uh really only cared about. like devoted his career to the least. uh resource kids in the country, these. poor poor kids. And um. when I was watching him die. uh I had an awe experience. I was like. you know, what is going on? He seems.

really calm. He's heading into a space I don't. understand. I saw like pulsating light, you know, that was uniting everyone. around him in this sense of reverence. and. the sacredness of of his life. And uh. afterward um. I was uh knocked into a really profound. state of grief where um this is about 5. years ago. Uh I couldn't make sense of the world. You know, I could do my work. Um,

but I just didn't I was lost cuz he was. a very important voice to me. You know, and I was waking up, wasn't. sleeping, panicky, and and I like a lot. of people in grief, I was like, you know, hallucinating. Like I would see him, follow a guy in the streets, like, and. it wasn't him. I'd wake up thinking he was there. I. felt his hand on my back a couple times. And uh, it was weird. I was I I had this.

epiphany in this really bad state of. mind. The worst I've ever felt, like, um, I got to find awe again, you know, I. have to my brother, you know, he and I went dancing and did. wild things and backpacking and, you. know, just live this life of awe. He was. my source and he was gone. Um, and so I wrote the book, you know, and I I dug in and. just started writing about him. Uh, and he features prominently in the. book, you know, what he meant to me and.

how I grieved his loss and then worked. up the science too. So, in many ways, you know, what we're. observing in our our globalized culture. is is this. the problems of capitalism, the search. for meaning, the you know, rising the. reduced life expectancy US, rising. anxiety, depression. And I was kind of in that state. You. know, suddenly like, "Wow, my career's. good, but. uh, you know." And so,

um, knowing a little bit about the. science, I was like, "I've got to do. this myself and go get it.". Did you find that awe again? I did. It it it. it it took. a lot of work, you know, I was in a. really tough place and uh, you know, I. um, I just was I just started anew, like, "Where do I find meaning? And I find. meaning working with prisoners. I don't know why, you know, um but just,

you know, being in prisons, volunteering, helping with a formerly. incarcerated. I challenged myself to. find awe in places I wouldn't ordinarily. find it. Like just to open my mind, like, "Woah, I'm at a symphony, you. know, I love African music and Sona. Jobarteh and, you know, and here I was. in the symphony not understanding it but. starting to feel it. Um you know, nature's easy for me. I've always. backpacked and gone into the mountains. I had a lot of spiritual conversations, you know, of like, "I'm not a religious.

person.". And I was like, "What is this? You know, why why mystical awe?" So. and what it gave me, I think, with respect to my brother's death, is. an openness, like. we don't know what life is. We don't. know where it goes. We don't, you know? Uh and it opened my mind to a lot of new. sources of awe. There's almost an injustice I heard in. that story because of the way you. characterized your your brother and his. behavior. Yeah. For him then to have. passed early from cancer.

Yeah. feels in many respects to me like the. opposite of awe or. you know, the universe being. uh. compassionate or fair or whatever. And. that. Yeah. Yeah. It hit me hard, you know, it. was uh. and that's well put. Like for the first. year, you know, you you ask these questions, like, "Why would a guy. who teaches speech therapy to the. poorest kids in the United States go and. is it with a teenage daughter and a. young family? Come on, you know, come.

on." And Donald Trump is, you know, indestructible and you're like, "The. world is [ __ ] you know." And and I. grappled with that. uh. very hard. And then I was, as you well put, I was. in this antithesis. state of awe, I was like nothing meant. anything. You know, it was all pointless. I could sense nothing bigger about life. that mattered. And that's why. you know, that's why I said, "All right.

I have this career that allows me to. do these investigations." And we're all. investigating. We're all. searching for these things in music or. moral beauty or being in collectives or. sports. And I just threw myself into it. And And uh. And you know, frankly, um. it, you know, the idea of everyday awe, which is very important in the book. We. can find it anywhere. You know, on the train with the act of. generosity. That is now it just feels.

alive all the time. What What's kind of the three lines of. gratitude? Because when you were talking. about the old walk. Picked up the the this. um mug, the silver mug we have in front. of us. Yeah. And you started admiring it. It. almost sounded a bit more like gratitude. to me. Yeah. And even the the the study where you had. the elderly um participants do the walk. and then sort of self-report I'm. guessing on how they felt. Yeah. It sounded like nature also gives us a. sense of sort of gratitude for our. lives, for the world we're living. Yeah.

What's the distinction or difference if. there is one? Yeah, what a terrific question. And. there's a. deep philosophical tradition um of David. David Hume, Scottish philosopher, um Charles Darwin, uh Martha Nussbaum. more recently, a Chicago philosopher. that. we and it really animates a lot of this. conversation, the work I've done is like. we have these amazing emotions that are. like deep intuitions about the world. that are good for us and good for the. world. You know, compassion, take care. of people who are vulnerable. Awe, you.

know, connect to others to face vast. mysteries. And gratitude, uh Adam Smith, the great economist, felt like this is. the emotion that holds societies. together, gratitude. The feeling of. reverence. for things or like, "Wow, this is really. important and sacred.". of things that are given to you. And that is key. Like, "Oh, my friend. helped me with my work. Um my work. colleague brought me lunch. Um you know, my my child did the dishes.

tonight." You know, "Whoa. Um I feel grateful.". Gratitude, really close to awe as as you. intuit, but it tends to be different in. that awe tends to be about vaster. things. Like, you know, uh you almost get into a car crash or. you get into a car crash, you almost. die, and you're like, "Ah, I'm just I. feel awestruck that I'm alive, you. know.". And then awe has more mystery. to it. You can't understand it. Like music or.

Right. Like music Yeah, exactly. You. know, music rushes into you. and you start crying, right? And you're. like, "Oh my god.". So, what's a recent experience of that. for you? Of music? Yeah. Um it would be. Where you just start sobbing and, you. know, or not sobbing. Oh, sobbing. Or chills. It would be We do this live show for. It's called the Driver Seat of Life, and. we toured the country last year. We did. three nights at the Palladium, then we. took it to all these theaters. And I'm. stood and there's a house gospel choir.

of about 40 people behind me for the. whole 2 hours while I'm speaking. Yeah. And I mean, Jesus. Yeah. They sing a lot of like religious songs. as part of the the message that I'm. conveying. And I mean, every night I'm. you know, I'm crying. It's funny cuz I. rehearsed it. I rehearsed it. I. practiced I practiced it. But then with. the people there, the audience of 2,500. people and the choir there, I would cry. every night. Yeah. Which is bizarre which is strange, right? Isn't it striking? It's a it's sense of connectedness, maybe. I wonder why in the live show, when there's thousands of people there,

then I feel the most intense emotions. Yeah. versus when we're in rehearsals. Yeah. That's a complicated question. But your. examples tell us, you know, that you the. vastness of that experience of like, "Wow, there are sound waves that I'm. producing. and that are moving bodies. I see this. pattern of movement, and I am part of. that." And as the poet Ross Gay says, these boundaries between self and other. become very porous. You're like, "Whoa, we're all one organism." That's awe, vast, and and I don't understand why.

Gratitude is more, you know, you're at. the show and. you know, somebody looks you in the eye. and smiles and and you feel like they're. grateful for you. It has this more. readily understood economy to it almost. or um. and why, you know, in writing about awe, um. the you know, there are some things that. are intuitive like, "Oh, nature makes us. feel awe." And people's moral beauty and. kindness, your story on the train. But how in the world music.

sound waves hits our ear, produces a a. neurochemistry in the brain, and the. next thing you know, you're crying, you. know, and feeling one. That's amazing to me. And we still I. don't know if science will ever answer. it, you know, it's it's just the. transcendent power of music, and you're. lucky to share it. Do you have any insight into the. positive impact that gratitude has on us. based on any sort of studies that have. been done? It's huge. And you know, Stephen, like. when I following and teaching the.

science of happiness literature for. 25 years, you know, at UC Berkeley, I. started teaching a happiness course. I. think it was Harvard and us were the. first 25 years ago in tracking like, "What are the What are the things you. can count on?" You know, and when I go. out and teach happiness, um it's very. humbling. Like you asked me in some sense um a. related question to have a parent come. up to me. and say, "You know, my son is massively. depressed and suicidal. What do I do?".

You know, and obviously you go see a. therapist and you've considered. medication, but. the happiness literature can point to. like. these are the five. safest things to do. Social connection, uh develop some way to. use your body to calm down, breathing, yoga, sports, whatever. Uh and gratitude. is a winner. And I think awe is up there. now, too, but you know, gratitude, um. practicing gratitude. uh benefits the cardiovascular system.

It helps people who have heart heart. vulnerabilities. Patients, they do better. Uh it is uh very good for your place in. social networks. Like, I join a group. I'm I'm worried. I'm socially anxious. What do I do? Practice some gratitude, you know, say thank you and uh show a. little appreciation to people. You will. have stronger social ties. Uh we did. research showing it's good for romantic. bonds, you know, the. if partners simply say on occasion,

like, "Hey, thanks for doing the. dishes." or "I appreciate how you the. jokes you tell." or "I love your music. selection." it helps, right? So, it's. it's. a safe bet for a happier life. You know, this I've come to learn that. there's so many forces in our day-to-day. lives that act against gratitude and um. stifle its presence. But in the context. you've given there, whether it's in a. social group or at work or in a. relationship or even with yourself, I've. come to learn how important it is to not.

rely on gratitude just showing up, but. to try and create a system for frequent. gratitude. Now, one of the things that's. been a real unlock for me, my companies. over the last couple of years, is in. every company that I run, we have a gratitude chat. Yeah. So, it's. just a channel Yeah. And it's open. There's really no instruction, but it's. funny that we we we created the channel. first at Social Chain and then in my. current companies.

and when you just create the channel, what happens is gratitude pours in. Yeah. So, today there'll be I I can. guarantee at some point today there'll. be a message in there that says, "Thank. you so much, Ross, for going and getting. me that cup of coffee um that I didn't. ask for, but you knew that I needed it. or whatever." Or, "Thank you, Jack, for. helping me lift that box upstairs." And. it pours in and and it's such a simple. thing to do, yeah, but it creates this. insane um. um. hard to understand amount of like.

connectiveness. and appreciation. And I imagine for the. individual on the receiving end of the. gratitude. um. a sense of like worthiness or or. respect. respect or. Come on, yeah. And it's such a small thing to do. It is. that I think every company should. consider, which is having a a system to. move gratitude friction free across your. organization. Yeah. To back bind it together. But in your. personal in your relationship, the same. thing. Yeah. Like you can rely on it being a you. know, your partner helping you with the. bags or helping you with your packing or.

whatever. But it would it's great to. also in a relationship have a a system. for. Yeah. gratitude. And what I love about your system, Steven, you know, I've taught gratitude. in a lot of organizational contexts and. sometimes people force it like, you. know, "Okay, let's see what we're. grateful to. for each person in the in this you know, this meeting." And it's like, "Oh god, you know, that's tricky." But to allow. it to be spontaneous and intuitive like. you did, right? And let it flow. That's. that's the strong. source and and manifestation of. gratitude. And it reminds us, you know,

in Western European thinking, probably. largely Western European male thinking. has been so hostile to emotion. Uh this is what I was saying when I said. there's so many forces acting against. it. Yeah, and it's just like. why would you ever say thank you? It. makes you weak. It makes you vulnerable. and the like, etc. Um but. there are a lot of great thinkers from. David Hume, Adam Smith, Charles Darwin, you know, early a lot of the East Asian, you know, contemplative philosophies. like.

our best human tendencies come out of. emotions of gratitude and express them. Um, and and I think that your example. speaks to sort of a a big shift. culturally and. what do we do with these emotions at. work? They're really vital to our sense. of connectivity and community. Makes me think a lot about. relationships. And I know this is. something you've written about. extensively. The the role that romantic. relationship plays in health outcomes, etc., etc. But then I also was I was.

pondering this idea of monogamy broadly. Yeah. Whether So, my kind of question is. kind of two-fold is are we meant to be. monogamous? Yeah. And also. this I'm thinking a lot about how the. relationship dynamics in monogamy is. changing in some in some ways eroding. Yeah. I was reading some stats around marriage. and how people are getting married less. and. you know, having less kids and all these. kinds of things. So, what's your. thoughts on all of that? Are we meant to. be monogamous? You've done a lot of.

research on apes and you've talked a lot. about them in your in your work. But are. we meant to be monogamous? And if so. how does that relate to the fact that. being in a relationship extends our. life? What a terrific question. Well, you. know, anytime that you pose these. questions, right, you have to remember. um, you know, and I always approach. things from an evolutionary framework. You know, which is humans are many. different kinds of individuals, right? There's massive individual variation. And when I, um, you know, and there's.

cultural variation. So, some cultures. will be less monogamous, others more. Um, yeah, I think that I think that, um, the the safest answer we can offer and. it and it's dispiriting and I teach it. to my young students at Berkeley is, you. know, I hate to tell you this, but. you're in love right now, but odds are. very good that that's not going to be. the last relationship you're in. And so. we tend to move from one semi-committed. relationship to another. Mhm. Um so. serial monogamy or uh is is is what many.

believe to be kind of our default. orientation. There's variation around. that. Some. are more polyamorous, others are really. fiercely monogamous given genetic makeup. and cultural makeup. Um. my belief is. um and and your generation is really. bringing this to the fore, which is that. the old model of single monogamous. relationship for 60 years. uh probably is not working. When you. look at divorce rates, 50%. Those people who stay together, half of.

those marriages are really pretty. unhappy. So it's it's not working. You. look at certain cultures, I I was. struck, Stephen, recently I was. you know, the Scandinavians always do. really well in happiness measures, right? And I was like and I just Google. like. you know, what is the um. is sort of living configuration, romantic relationship configuration in. Sweden. Sweden has really high rates of. people. co-parenting but not living with the. parent, right? And that may be a model.

to be moved not not living with the. partner, sorry. Mhm. Um and so I think that we have. many kinds of love. Uh one of them being a monogamous love. Um it it puts a lot of pressure to uh. with this old kind of romantic, chivalrous, Victorian ideal of like. that's the only person. I don't think. that works, right? And so we're we're. moving towards more flexible. arrangements. where we express many kinds of love and.

and it comes with a lot of. complexity. So I when I teach. love. I say there are all these kinds of love, right? Walt Whitman. loved friendship, You know, I I mean, friendship love and in a lot of the. data, friends. give you more happiness than any kind of. relationship, right? Oh, I shouldn't say. I shouldn't say I. agree. My girlfriend is somewhere. upstairs. You're young, man. You got You got time. I'm You know, I understand. I.

understand. So, the I think this this model of like, you know, singular devoted all-consuming. romantic love has misled us. And we need. varieties of romantic love, which your. generation is creating, which is. exciting. And then we need to remember. the other forms to to have the rich. life. And then you get at that, you. know, I got the right social. configuration to give me those 10 years. of life expectancy. I've always been going back and forth. about marriage because I understand that. some people say marriage is a.

a system that allows for the rearing of. kids. Um, it's a it's a form of commitment, which. changes things in the relationship. But. the. But I have always wondered if there's. another way. Yeah. That's more, you know, where which kind. of. I don't know. It's a controversial. topic. Is there another way? Like, I'm. not even sure me and my partner would. get married, but I'm sure we'd make some. kind of commitment to each other, but. you know, I'm not sure involving the law. and church and all these things in the. in the process is necessarily.

conducive with a productive outcome. I know. And not only that, but just. think about like, you know, I'm going to. be Wait, I'm going to do everything from. physical exercise to streaming movies to. cooking food with one person, right? Um, you know, it's interesting, Stephen. Um. the there's this really striking. literature. You know, one of the raw. facts of our evolution is our offspring. are very vulnerable. They're the most. vulnerable offspring of any mammal on. the face of the earth. They take 7 to 8.

to 20 years just to I even say like 55. years to, you know, to even be. semi-functioning as an individual. But. what that meant is love. in our our hominid evolution was. distributed in communities, right? And. there's this concept called. allo-parenting, which is. we all kind of take care of young ones, even if they're not our own. We're all. affectionately related to each other in. that work. We're all There's much more sexual. fluidity in that dynamic that probably.

reflects the truth of today that we. don't face with this Victorian ideal of. singular romantic love. And and maybe your generation is moving. us toward. that that. sort of more communal approach to love. uh of And it's complicated, right? It. involves different ideas about sexuality. and different ideas of caregiving, um but probably healthier. And I hope it. happens. Why why won't it work?

And why doesn't it work? Cuz I you know, when we think about polygamy or um pop. being polyamorous. I don't know the. difference, I've got to be honest. Yeah. They sound similar. Polygamy, multiple wives. Polyamorous, multiple people you love. Okay. Yeah. So, when we think about those polys. Yeah. um it it seems impossible in the modern. world to. to execute a poly situation. without jealousy and all the other. [ __ ]. Yeah. And you know, I grew up raised. around hippies. You know, my parents. were counterculture. I grew up in Laurel.

Canyon in the late '60s, very wild. place. And I saw a lot of this as a. young kid, and it was comical. You know, it's like, who You're fighting over the. dishes and I don't get to sleep with my. wife tonight? That's. He gets my my roommate does? Ah, you. know. It's hard, you know. Um yeah, uh. you know, and a lot of things get in the. way. I think that, you know, I I forgive. me, but you know, I think of the US and. how much. of United States culture is designed. around, you know, the nuclear monogamous.

family. Mhm. of, you know, single homes, suburbs, driving in a car, um you know, really structured around that and and. maybe that's. poor design. It doesn't seem to fit our. evolutionary past of being. in these, you know, these collectives. that are sharing in the raising of. offspring and um and sharing in. to a certain extent in romantic. partnership, so. Are you married? Yes. You've been married for a long time? Yeah, through.

uh. 90 I think it's. 33 years, something like. Wow, dude. Yeah. Important context. Yeah. So, you know, cuz some people might, you. know, think that um you were like. anti-marriage or anything like that, but. you're clearly I can see from the ring. on your finger. No, but yeah, but I grew up around a mom. who, you know, she. taught women's literature and feminism. in the '70s and, you know, that early. feminist critique of marriage is right. Mhm. You know, early on it women did a lot of.

the work. It constrained them. It cost them in. terms of job uh mobility, and so. I've always questioned it. And then I. think the evolutionary literature we. talked about is like, "Wait a minute. Maybe love is more distributed. It comes. in many varieties. Mhm. And that's how we get this love work. done, so. I'm glad you guys are questioning it, seriously. Yeah. luck. Yeah, we we The good thing is we're. really like we're really open to new. things as in we're open to like.

building new systems for our. relationship in the modern world based. on how we feel. We're We're very good at. being um resistant to like social. pressure to to follow a a conventional. path. Yeah. So, even with Valentine's Days and. things like that, we have a conversation. about like does this make sense? Like. why would we do this? And what's more. important? Yeah. Which a lot of people don't. I've been. in relationships before where. you you you don't hit the perfect like. social cue to show up or give flowers or. whatever, and you get like a [ __ ]. an essay and you're, you know,

a bad guy for that day, but um. Going back to one of the points you. said, you were talking about how men in. particular struggle to show. express those emotions. Yeah. Um and you know, stereotypically we're. not as uh affectionate and kind as as. our female counterparts. One of the. things that you talk about is. the difference in social class. Yeah. Yeah. And how things change. Oh, man. Are. are we. worst people the richer and more. powerful we become?

Because your research seems to show that. Yeah. I would say yes. Um and I'm sorry to say. that, you know, it's it's uh. you know, we um. uh. I got interested in social class um. actually living in England. You know, I. lived in England in 1978. Um and you the United States is very. blind to social class. We're now more. aware of it, Bernie Sanders, etc.

Rightfully so, 1% critique. You know, '80s, '90s were just blind to. it. It was a more egalitarian time, and. I lived in Nottingham, England, very. working-class town in a very tough time. in England's history of, you know, coal. strikes and the like, and it was tough. And and the English. had this. um. just much more sophisticated. understanding of class and. differentiations between. on the dole and working class and posh. and, you know, all these categories. I. was like, "Wow, class is everywhere. It.

affects how people speak and dress and. eat and so forth.". And so, we started to apply social class. to what we've been talking about, like. the compassion, awe, gratitude, and. empathy, kindness, sharing, altruism, and just, you know, across um. studies and and, you You largely in the. United States, so I think you could. question whether this applies to Holland. or UK or Japan where there there's less. inequality, I might add. Um, you know,

as you rise in wealth and privilege, you. share less, you feel less compassion to. images of suffering. You know, you see an image. This was a. striking study to me of, you know, it's. a movie about a child who has cancer. And poorer people show activation the. vagus nerve, which is part of. compassion. You know, causes you to like want to. help. Well-to-do people, less. activation. Uh, they feel less awe. As. you rise in the social class hierarchy. in the United States, um,

uh, are more impolite. And so, that was. part of my power power paradox book was. that story about class. I, you know, I I. hesitate, I worry about like am I worse. person? And I you I'd rather use your earlier. language of like, what are the. structural conditions that get in the. way of this? And you think about, you know, rising in in wealth and privilege and. class as introduced you you create a. life. that makes it harder to be kind. You. know, that you're people are assisting.

you with things and. um, you don't come into contact with. suffering. You know, you're living in a. neighborhood in the United States or. probably UK where it's like, you don't see it, you know? And so, you. it doesn't train those tendencies. And you know, frankly, um, Stephen, I, you know, I think this is increasingly true in the. UK, but in the United States, uh, you know, with one in six people impoverished, uh, life expectancy is dropping,

you know, 6 700,000 unhoused people in. the United States. Where I live, Berkeley, California, everywhere you go, you're. bumping into somebody who doesn't have a. home. I I think it's our central failure it in. the US is. how. privilege. has short-circuited our our better. human tendencies. How do we know that. it's the increase in wealth and social. class.

that is causing us to become. less kind, um, less empathetic, less. compassionate, or it's just. [ __ ] go further. Yeah. Yeah. There's a distinction there. Like maybe. these people were always [ __ ] and. that's why they became successful or. rich or wealthy or whatever or or in a. higher social class. Yeah. I I mean, there are two And that's. a critical question, right? And And. people have long championed this idea. that, well, maybe all of this, what it really tells. us is you if you practice our.

compassion, you don't rise in the ranks, and you don't gain wealth and the like. And there are two rebuttals to that. idea. The first, which I chart in the. Power Paradox, which people still don't. believe too much, but uh, on balance. today, um, people who practice empathy, who listen. and and share resources, practice. gratitude, rise in the ranks. They they. do better in social hierarchies. Um, and. that replicates in a lot of contexts. And And really what happens is, this is.

why I call it the Power Paradox, is. once I have everybody's. respect and, you know, wealth and the like, then it I. tend to misbehave, right? In the ways. we've talked about through a lot of. different, uh, uh, forms of unethical behavior. The. other rebuttal is we've actually done. experiments, right? And you can take a. middle-class individual, and you can get them into the mindset. like, "Hey, you're actually. have a lot of advantage vis-à-vis most. of society" through simple.

manipulations, right? Just think about. how you compare to a lot of poor people, and they're like, "Oh, I'm doing really. well.". And that simple shift in mindset leads. to. reduced compassion, reduced empathy. So, you can you can actually move people. around where you give them the sense. that they're privileged and it tends to. undermine these these tendencies. Jesus. I know. That's [ __ ] horrible. It is. And you know, um I worry about it. I worry about it a.

lot. What um you know, the the kind of. poor distribution of. privilege in the United States and. increasingly UK and other countries is. doing to the social fabric. It's it's a. problematic. It's interesting cuz there is there's. kind of a long um prevailing stereotype. that rich people are. like bad. Like they're like less. compassionate, um less empathetic. And I. and I always wondered whether that was. just I don't know. Was it true? Was it. um was it Was it people being jealous?

Was it um just too much of a broad. generalization? Was it, you know, based. on the the acts of maybe a few? Yeah. But you're telling me that the science. supports the fact that generally the. more the richer you are and that the. higher you are in terms of social class, um the less compassionate less less. empathetic you are as a human. Yeah, and you know, and it is that I. mean, that's the broad argument. I've. given you a couple of findings here. There are all kinds of other findings. that speak to this. Jesus. Um you know, one This is one of my. favorites is, you know, in these um.

these epidemiologists who are studying. broad trends in social behavior. discovered this accidentally. They're. interested in who shoplifts as a a. teenager in the United States. You know, a basic unethical tendency, really costly for businesses in the. United States. Is it the rich or the. poor? Well, you know what who I who I would. assume it would be, but I feel like I'm wrong. It's the rich. Rich high school kids in. the United States are more likely to. shoplift, right? Um.

and that's striking. They've got their. parents' credit card. They can buy. whatever they want and they violate that. social rule. This is where it gets. really worrisome. Uh my former student Michael Kraus did. really nice work. on US senators and US policy makers. You know, American politicians are rich. They increasingly so. And he was simply interested in does. your degree of. privilege or wealth predict.

regressive policy preferences like let's. not give resources to schools for the. poor. Let's not fund, you know, Medicare. Let's really move wealth through. taxation policies to the well-to-do. And the wealthier you are, the more you. you preferred and advocated for, you know, serious economic policies that. hurt the poor and benefit the well-to-do. who already have, you know, in the US. the 1% they have enough. They have more. than enough, right? Why not share a.

little? So, it's deep. And I think And. then you look across history, European aristocracies and you know, the. Popes and so forth and it's it's I think. it's one of the you know, frankly, Steven, and I hate to say it, you know, Lord Acton, uh. you know, power leads to abuse and. absolute power absolute corruption. Our. power is corrupting. Um it's a pretty. safe law in human behavior. I hate to say it.

Mhm. It's because you're rising in prominence. and facing a new life and you better. watch out. I was thinking most of the time you're. talking, which is like, how do you avoid. that? How do you avoid. Yeah. How do you avoid the uh that. scientifically supported tendency to. become an [ __ ] with with the more. wealth and power you accrue? Um I guess my my assumption was just. being conscious of the fact. Yeah. The. first thing. But also just like there's. probably act things you could do. actively to remain. uh.

aware of your own. insignificance to maybe not the word, but like the fact that everybody is. exactly the same. Yeah. That's like the the way I describe. it. Yeah, I mean, I think that there's an. awareness dimension to this that you've. suggested. There's an ethical practice of like, how. do I create more gratitude in an. organization if that's what we care. about, etc. Um. How do I counteract my own biases then. as well? So, how do I put you people. around me who represent and we're.

thinking here I'm thinking here about. governments that represent the entirety. of the population, not just the rich. private school right colleagues that I. might surround myself with, which has. often been the case in government. And that is hard to work against, right? That is a deep sociological process that. like, you appoint the cabinet member. from Oxford or whatever and and you're. in trouble. Yeah, you know, it's it's. uh. It is. uh you know, a lot of economists, a lot. of the work coming out of. uh you know, spirit level UK, this is a. central challenge of of the structure of.

our societies today is this this. increasingly unequal distribution of. privilege and wealth and all that goes. with it. Do people that are wealthy and in a. higher social class live longer? Because. I say that because the the attributes of. becoming less empathetic and rude or all. these things seem to be the antithesis. of social connectedness and all of these. things. And you even said earlier that, you know, wealthier people experience. less awe. Yeah. And all of those things. are. um.

uh. are associated with living longer. Yeah. So, one would assume that if you become. rich and powerful, you're then there's. also then also a risk to your life. expectancy. Yeah, that's terrific. That's a really. striking question and we don't know. Um and I think your reasoning is right. on the point, which is wow, you. have less friends, you have. Right, privilege knocks out these these. these important tendencies that help. with inflammation and vagal tone and the. like. Um. rich people do live longer. That's robust. Yeah, yeah, and food you.

eat and so forth. You know, opportunity for health, you. know, yoga, all the things that benefit. us. Rich people, this is interesting, surprised me, rich people are less. likely to experience anxiety and. depression in the United States. Yeah, interesting, isn't it? We think so. lonely and anxiety producing to be at. the top. No, mental health issues are really. concentrated in the poor for obvious. reasons. Working two jobs, riding the. bus, you know, schools are.

under-resourced, etc. But to your point, and it's interesting, the effect of wealth on happiness is. much smaller than people think. People. think, you know, in particular in a. country like the United Kingdom or you. know, Great Britain or US, like. oh, once I make a lot of money, it'll be bliss and happiness and. contentment. That turns out not to be. true. It's a weak relationship. And I. think part of the reason is,

you know, when you you gain in. resources, you don't have these raw. feelings of compassion as often or God, I'm grateful for that gift, right, that. you gave me or this is awesome, this. person's courage or how they overcome. overcame obstacles. And so that. diminishes. how wealth could make you happier. So I. think it's at play in some of these. phenomena and maybe in others. As some of you will know, Intel have. been sponsoring this podcast for a. little while now. And this makes the.

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to inequality. and opportunity and the poor. distribution or. uh of of opportunity and resources is um. there have been these amazing findings. uh related to what's called death by. despair. And. certain populations in the United. States, um very poor white people, large. group of the um. large subculture in the United States, are often forgotten in the cultural.

discourse. They're poor. I grew up. around these people. Very poor, don't eat good food, schools. are not that good, you know, uh work is. uncertain. And they and they feel disrespected in. some sense. And those that subculture in. the US. has been killing themselves, you know, with opiates and you know, drinking and. drug addiction and suicides and the. like. And it's a serious problem. And.

it's part of that statistic. And then I think that, you know, if you. think about. the problems of contemporary culture. concentrated in the United States of. lack of civility, rage, self-focus, a. lot of things. that undermine our physical health. through the mind, um that probably is part of this story, too. Too much stress, too much. loneliness, um not enough music and joy and shared.

communal experience, um. we. are struggling. Um and and that's part. of probably that statistic, too. And so that's why, you know, as I. mentioned, like the Surgeon General. Vivek Murthy, a very smart team, looking. at these kind of processes and saying, "How do we build community?" You know, and they're they've got a big program. now. So, it is alarming. And that statistic. is important for thinking thinking about.

where we are. I looked at the life expectancy on. Google a couple of years ago. And I I. could see that it was basically going up. every single year. And then there was. these 2 years. I think it might have. been last year or the year before. This. was, I think, before the pandemic. Um. there was these two years where it had. dropped both in the UK and the US. Yeah. in a row. Yeah. Um and I was trying to understand why. that was, and I heard some social. commentator say that there's this. epidemic of purposelessness. Yeah. Yeah. And describe that as leading to the. opioid crisis, but also suicides and all.

these other behaviors. Yeah. Um. is that is that a good way to in your in. your view to define it, like this. epidemic of purposelessness? Yeah, it is. You know, thanks for. bringing that up, and you know, purpose, a lot of people now call it. meaning, right? What. vague term, has many different. definitions, but it's, you know, I as an individual, how do I. connect to things that are larger than. the self, that don't have to do with. income or status or directly, but like, what's my point here in my brief life on.

Earth? Um you know, what am I going to serve? What's the big cause that I'm part of? And this is really emerging. in the science of happiness as a central. focus of, you know, um you know, we we know well uh how to. find income, we have good ideas about. sensory pleasures, what's good to eat, how do I drink wines, what's the great. coffee and the like,

but we've lost sight of meaning. You. know, churches and religions used to. give that to us, you know, and religious. participation's on the decline in the. West, dramatically so for people your. age. Mhm. Um where they gave us a big picture of. life, and now, you know, young people. are hungry for it, and they're. challenging. a lot of the. the approaches to happiness that that. don't give meaning, you know, new. conceptions of work, like, I don't have.

to stay at one career if it isn't. meaningful, new conceptions of romantic. relationship, and so, I think, you know, I think a lot of. different perspectives are saying this. is. one of the crises of our times is. meaning. Is what will be the big thing. you're devoted to? If you were to follow. you answer that question? Uh, which question? What are you devoted to? I'm devoted to so many things. I'm. devoted to this, this this podcast and. the show for so many reasons, for for. very selfish reasons, but those selfish. reasons happen to be selfless.

Yeah, a lot of them. Um, you see what I mean? Like, doing the. podcast and you know, helps helps the. people some of the people that listen. because they come up to me in the street. and they tell me all the time wherever I. go. And the stories they tell me are. like, uh, I remember I was at, um, Old Trafford. uh, 2 days ago, the Manchester United. stadium, and a guy who was the he said. he was the nearest survivor to the. Manchester, um, terrorist attacks. Mhm. Um, approached me in his in his. wheelchair and told me that of the. impact this has had on him.

Yeah. And I literally had to walk like I took. the photo with him, walked, um, like 2 m out out into this, um, this. balcony, and I remember feeling just. overwhelmed with emotion. And it was this wonderful reminder of. like. how why I do this. Yeah. For for both the listener, but also for. me. So, this is something that I'm. increasingly devoted to because of those. experiences. And thank you to that young. man, he's tweeted me about for doing. that cuz I I needed I needed the. reminder. So, I feel like you need the. reminders sometimes often.

I'm devoted to my relationship with my. partner, my dog, my family, Yeah. um, my team, and I'm I'm devoted to myself. I'm. devoted to like my my, um, health, my, you know, of both my body and my mind. Yeah. I think that's what I'm devoted to. And. I think I'm devoted to, um, the the the yeah. Probably answered this. in the first piece, but the good the. greater good of like the collective. So, Yeah. you know, um, Yeah. And you know, it's so interesting, you.

know, Steven, one of the reasons that I. got really excited about awe. as an emotion to study, a brief state. that you, you know, you go out and you. see the the moment of generosity that. you saw or look at the sky or, you know, think about a big idea, that idea of. space or infinity is is it does bring. people. it kind of moves people away from. transactional considerations. So, in one. of our studies, look up into the trees, you feel awe, you're less interested in. money, you're less focused on the self, and. you're you're really more focused on the.

greater good. Like, what how do my. actions promote. healthier societies? Um, and and I think that, um, you know, a lot of of young people are raising. questions of meaning right now with. climate crises and economic inequality, the state of democracy. Like, what is. the point? You know, when, you know, you. think about conversations from the last. century and the centuries before, you. know, in reading for awe, people would.

use words like the soul. Yeah. And spirit. And like, this is what I'm. really about in life. Uh, and we've lost. sight of that, you know? And so, hopefully with this book, people, how whatever language they want to use, they're asking questions like, what am I devoted to? What's sacred? What is what. Why do people suddenly care? It seems. like this young generation, I'd say. millennials and Gen Z, they all. want to change the world. Yeah. Now, they don't necessarily know what they. want to change.

Yeah. But they want to be involved in the. process of And I This is literally a. quote, and I say this because of the. amount of young people that have come up. to me various times, DM'd me, and said, I said like, what do you want to do? They they they'll say things like, I. want to change the world. Yeah. How do you want to change it? And they're like, They don't know. They don't know, but. they want to be involved in changing the. world. Now, I've always wondered if this. is like virtue signaling because it's. good for social media. Probably. Probably, right? Or there's been some. inherent change, you know, from my. father's generation to my future kids. generation and my generation where we. suddenly are these great philanthropists.

and we want to. Yeah. change everything and make it better. Yeah. No, it's exciting for me. I mean, you know, the and there are a lot of. good findings on this that when Thatcher. and Reagan hit in 1980, and that's when. I was 18, right? We had this big return. to materialism. And you think about the. movie Wall Street being iconic. Greed is. good. And that truly. that was the idea, right? Of like, the. point of life is selfish genes and. maximizing my wealth. And we had this.

massive, you know, shift in Wall Street. and that became our ideology. And that's. been documented sociologically. Like in. my generation, you know, suddenly coming out of the. '60s and all the social revolutions of. those times, now young people are. allowed to say, "I want to make a ton of. money. I want to live in a big house. I. want to, you know, I want to drive. whatever car." And your generation is. reacting against that big pendulum. shift, right? And suddenly it's like, "Hey, that didn't work. Look at the.

Amazon. Look at economic inequality. Bernie Sanders, right? Um what about climate crisis? Greta. Thunberg, right? Suddenly new model and. it's. it's coming.". But it's not because of social It feels. like that social media and the internet. has played a huge role in making us this. like one connected mind. Yeah. And we know from our sort of. evolutionary past that we we prefer. members of the the tribe tribe. that serve the tribe, that are good, you. know, that are I think there's a there's.

a a term you use when we're talking when. you're talking about gossip. Um how we will gossip against people who. are not doing good for the tribe, essentially. Yes. So, we know that like being part of the. tribe and serving the tribe and being. you know, empathetic and caring about. others is a good trait. Now, we're all. connected on these glass screens as if. we're one brain. And we're rewarded with these likes and. these retweets when we do good. Ridiculous. Yeah. So, if I if I you know if I do something. really really good for society or. whatever, um then I'm rewarded with I. don't know comments or likes or whatever.

or you know everyone claps and I feel. part of the tribe. Yeah. So has social media made us these. philanthropic warriors that are seeking. for ways to like virtue signal our our. goodness. Yeah. You know, I. I mean there's one argument in that in. general any act of virtue and and way of. promoting the greater good becomes. co-opted and exploited by people who. have power, you know, and and there's a. critique, you know, I hate to say this, but you have a lot of nonprofits that.

they. kind of they create these virtuous. organizations and pay people good. salaries and don't do a lot in the world. and that is a critique out there. And I. think it could be even more robustly. uh levied against the digital virtue is. like it's. I you could say it's meaningless. Let's. take that hypothesis, right? Oh, we we. turn acts of generosity and kindness and. appreciation that you saw on the train. into digital things that don't affect. anything, right?

Black Lives Matter where everyone was. told to post a black tile on their. Instagram on a Tuesday. Like I did a post about how um. how much that misses the point in many. respects. If we're trying to deal with. systemic racism, posting a black tile on. a Tuesday really does nothing to address. and. evoke the conversation that needs to be. had. Yeah. But it was like an easy quick. cool way to say I'm a good person. It's. And to do very little thereafter, you. know. And if it's not changing hiring.

practices or pay practices or school. admissions, it is BS and it's a and and. probably counter works against social. progress. I had a cool during that time from one. of the biggest brands in the world who. who asked me on a conference call, um. there was five of them, what should we. do? You know, we need Do Do we Do we do a. donation? What What What should we post. on our Twitter channel? Like, what. should we do and say? And part of, you. know, it was the five executives of this. huge company. And I said, "I think the. the most important thing is actually to.

get your home in order first. It's. startling that there's five white men on. this phone call right now talking about. um, race relations. um, and inequality. I think it's it's. it's better not to be the. contradictions. It's better to get your. home in order first before you start. You know, and that's not I mean, there's. for You can almost see the the. expression in their faces. It's like, "Oh, that's the hard. That's the hard thing.". Well, get to work. Yeah, exactly. It's much easier just to. do a donation, right, in these. situations. I want to talk about um, compassion. It's a word I've I've. struggled to understand if I'm honest.

Yeah. Because Like, what does it mean? Does it. mean being nice to people? What is. compassion? No, you know, um, compassion is. um, the feeling of concern about other. people's suffering. Okay. And and then taking action, right? Uh, Empathy? Is that. Empathy is. I feel the same thing as you. I. understand your mental states. If you're. in pain, I feel pain. Compassion is. you're in pain and I want to I want to.

make your circumstances better. I want. to lift up your your well-being. Um, so. it's interesting um, compassion is a. very dynamic emotion. It's an empowered. emotion. It isn't Nice is great, you. know, it's politeness and civility and. being considered. I think we. uh, we need more niceness in the world and I. think we often I think the connotations. of the word nice. uh, sort of devalue how powerful it is, but. compassion is.

powerful. It is the state of wanting to. lift up the welfare of other people who. suffer. Um, and what's striking about it. and and I love the neurophysiology of. this and the the which really speaks to. you its power which is that. I can see. somebody suffering, dying, cancer, uh flesh wounds, crying in pain. And. when I lock into the compassion. response, certain regions of the brain. are activated that are different than.

empathy, the vagus nerve is activated, and it's it really just throws you into. altruistic action, right? So, um and that's why you know, when the. Dalai Lama. um you know, who's now one of the most. prominent spiritual figures in the world. says, "If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. And if you want to be happy, practice. compassion.". That gets to it, right? Like, man, if.

you can stay close to compassion, you and other people and the greater. good will do well. It's a really dynamic. emotion. Is there scientific evidence that proves. that you will become happier if you're. compassionate to others? Yeah. And what does that scientific evidence. show and prove? It's amazing, you know, and it it begins. with a study by Liz Dunn, famous study, replicated in many different cultures, which is you give people some money and. they can give it away to a to help. somebody or spend it on themselves.

Giving it away boosts happiness more. than spending it on yourself. Um there's research. I love this work in. Contagion has been part of our. experience here where. um if I am kind to you, Stephen, um this is kind of extending from the. study, uh that boosts my life expectancy, it. shifts my physiology, it shifts my. stress. But, I love this work where if. I'm kind to you and then the. experimenter watches you in your next.

interaction, you're kinder to that. person, right? I'm not around. My act of. kindness makes you more kind downstream, and then that person you've helped. actually is kinder to. another person in a subsequent. interaction. So, you know, the. you've proven that in studies. Yeah, and really nice research on the. contagiousness of altruism and. compassion. Um yeah, it is like. gratitude, it's one of these big. winners, you know, if I There's a loving.

kindness practice. where. comes out of East Asian traditions where. you just calm yourself, get into some. deep breathing, find a quiet safe space, and orient kind phrases to other people. I I May you be filled with loving. kindness. May you be safe from inner or. outer danger. Well in body and mind. Uh at ease and happy. And that simple. practice, 2 minutes, right? Uh. just calms the amygdala, threat-related.

region of the brain, activates reward circuitry. So, you know, um you know, you talked about. and you asked about what are these. structural conditions of our busy lives. that get in the way of of the good life, and. you've got to find a few moments just to. be kind. I was blown away um when reading your. your work and watching videos that you. produced about um. so many things. The one of the real. startling things is.

the the power of touch. Yeah. I read. I read. read. um that if you pat a kid on the back in. the classroom, that child is three to. four five times more likely to try hard. problems on the blackboard, and that. touch can make you live longer. Mhm. And be less stressed, just someone. touching you. Yeah. Is that true? Yeah, I mean, it's you know, touch. in a lot of mammalian species, including. humans, is just connection. It's it's.

identity, it's I'm with you. You know, you think early in life we are. constantly being held and in. skin-to-skin contact with our. caregivers. It's foundational. It's where my sense. of me and you. connection emerges. The physiology of touch is mind-blowing. You know, our hands are incredible. They're spectacular. um you know, evolutionary adaptations. that can do all kinds of things. including touch. Our skin, 8 lb,

billions of cells, our immune system is. in the skin. You know, it registers touch in many. different ways from the sexual to the. friendly to the cooperative. Goes up. into the brain and says, "Man, you're. being touched in this way.". Uh and and that has direct effects on. your immune system and your vagus nerve. and your heart rate and the health of. your body. And so, you know, early. discoveries. um you know, you have premature babies, they're going to die.

And and they used to just put them in. these little, you know, um sort of units that warm them and had. them sort of be comfortable and fed, and. they would die. And then they figured. out you got to. hold the the premature baby. They needed. skin-to-skin contact like they need. food. Right? And they lived. They gained. 47% weight gain. Um and then, you know, there are there are just studies time. and time again. You know, nice hug, lower cortisol. Uh.

nice embrace with somebody, elevated. vagal tone. Um the studies that you referred to of, you know, patting kids on the back, they. they do better in school. Um. you know, and it's so interesting, parts. of. English culture, you know, Victorian culture, Western European culture, they came up with the idea like touch is. sexual. It's you got to get it and it. is, but only certain kinds of touch are. sexual. There's a lot of friendly touch. we need, right? And it just shut it.

down. And now it's coming back. It's uh thank. goodness. It's it's good for us. We We talked before we started filming. about the study with the rhesus monkeys. Yeah. I can't remember that the who the. researcher was, but. Yeah. I was saying to you that. Harlow. Harlow, that was it. Yeah. Um how that. was mind-blowing to me at 16 to learn. that they put these monkeys in these. cages. They had like a pretend wire. mother, so a mother made out of like. metal. And then they had another one. made out of like cloth. And. like a mother made out of cloth, which. was essentially a teddy bear.

And there was huge variance between the. outcomes of those kids, right? Yeah. I mean, if you deprive those. monkeys of the nice touch, they they don't learn how to behave. socially effectively. You know, if you. give them a choice between a wire. uh monkey mother and that provides milk. and then a terry cloth one, they always. hang around the terry cloth one, right? They just love the social contact. If you deprive non-human primates of. touch, they. they are almost schizophrenic or.

psychopathic or they're just like. Personality disorders. aggressive, they can't handle social. interactions. You know, orphans deprived. of touch, famous orphan studies. You know, in humans, same thing. They. just like they don't become human in. some way. Or they are human, but they. have trouble with social contact. Yeah, you know, I mean, part of the. questioning of that you're engaging in, Stephen, of the literature is like, well, what can I do just to live a more. meaningful life? Mhm. And you know, from gratitude to kindness.

to find some ah, man, you know, if you're not hugging people you love, if you're not if you don't have a rich. language of touch with your friends, you know, I learned it playing pick up. basketball. Basketball, which is the. I believe the most. fascinating sport in human history, it. has this amazing language of touch, you. know? And it's it's unique to the court, right? You're fist bumping, chest. bumping, and the like. I If you're not. doing that with your friends, you're. missing out on one of the great. languages of human. kind, which is to be in contact with.

each other. So, you know, parents, you know, when you have kids, and I hope some of your listeners are. are doing that, you know, it's this. mystery, like, should they take naps on my body? Should. we How should I hold them? Should I. carry them in public? Am I indulging. them? And I think the more friendly, kind touch the better. So, we're moving. back to where we began evolutionarily, and I think it'll be a good thing. What if I'm touching a dog? Does that have the same same effect?

Yeah, I mean, dogs evolved because we. love them, and they love us, and there's. all this new amazing dog science where. This is one of my favorite studies, and. touch releases oxytocin, which is this little chemical that. floats in your brain and your blood, and. it helps you be kind to other people and. cooperate. And they're now studies from. Japan showing. you may do this with your dog, Steven, where if you look into the eyes of your. dog, you your dog will have a surge of. oxytocin,

and you will have a surge of oxytocin. So, so it's like all of this social stuff. that's so simple of eye contact and. touch. brings us good things even with our. dogs. It makes me kind of realize two things. The first is that men tend to be. stereotypically much worse at that. Yeah. Much worse at touch. We don't We do the. like the macho hug where you like. on the back, you know, like where you. pat them on the back. It's like, "Get. the [ __ ] off me.". Um, we're we're less good at even things. like eye contact and sort of emotional.

engagement. And then you look at the. stats around male suicides and all of. those, you know, drug addiction and all. those things are significantly higher. I believe the stats say that the biggest. killer of men under the age of 40 is. themselves in this country yeah, by. suicide. Um, And they really need feel as like they. need to be a reversal of that. The. adjacent point is the just the one we. talked about earlier, which is just. loneliness. And now it kind of makes sense as to why. if you are lonely, you have a.

significantly worth worse health. outcomes. Um and a shorter life. expectancy cuz you're not getting the. compassion, the touch. You're not You're. probably experiencing less awe or. gratitude, etc. Yeah. Um. And I feel like we have to we have to. talk about how we fix that. Like you. know cuz some of the saddest moments I. can I think about when I've had private. conversations are men coming up to me. after like a talk on stage and. whispering to me that the part I said. about me being lonely when I was like.

23, 24 and I'd given everything just for. this business, coming to the office. every day, sacrifice friendships, family, relationships. I'll have men come up to me and whisper. to me that that was the part that they. um. it. needed to hear the most. But then asking. me what they can actionably do to fix. that. Yeah. As if they don't want the. the the group around me to hear that. they are lonely. Yeah. And they want to. do something about it. They are sat on. their computers, often playing video. games or on the internet, um. struggling to attract, you know, maybe.

the opposite sex or the same sex or. whatever whatever they're interested in. And it feels like it's going in one. negative direction generally. I mean the. stats kind of support the fact that. we're getting lonelier and lonelier. Yeah. Yeah, I mean those are such deep. insights. And. really worth thinking more concretely. about what to do. I I think that the. you know, kind of the the gender. complexities here are really striking, right? Men live significantly fewer.

years than women in most Western. globalized cultures. And and I think. you're on a really interesting. hypothesis, Stephen, which is that. you know, if the gender stereotypes and. these rigid concepts and then the lives. we lead don't allow us to hug and feel. grateful and feel empathetic, it it. countervails that and there those are. gender stereotypes, right? Oh, if I. practice compassion at work, I'll be. weak and I won't rise. That's not true. That's a gender stereotype. And it it.

denies men. um disproportionately this opportunity. for these emotions, right? And that's. that, you know, with new conceptions of. gender, new ideas about work is changing. dramatically, uh that will shift and I. think it'll be good news um for the. health of men. Um and and then. loneliness. um loneliness in some sense is the. deprivation of everything we've been. talking about. It's that you don't get. to hug somebody like you would like to. every day and that you don't hear the.

words of appreciation. William James, you know, the deepest craving we have is. to be appreciated by other people. You. don't hear it. You don't hear the thank. you. You don't get to go out and feel. awe with somebody. uh or feel kindness. Um you know, so I. think we have to. think very actively about building these. emotions into those contexts. In the. United States, there are 35,000 long-term care. facilities. The elderly in the United States,

a lot of them live alone, you know. Uh. if when people from India. see how we treat the elderly or people. from Mexico, it's just like the unhoused. They're. like, "What are you guys doing?" You. know, you're taking the vulnerable. and and sort of shunting them off alone. But the but these emotions point to. really direct actionable things to do, right? With awe practices and. compassion. So, it gives me hope, but. we've got, you know, I think in part. historically. we took these prosocial emotions out of.

our lives, right? And now we got to build them back. in. And if we do, it's good for not just. ourselves, but it's good for the. recipients of those emotions. You know, hugging hugging my dad or hugging my mom. or hugging anybody is is a mutually. beneficial um behavior in terms of all. the, you know, life expectancy, happiness, reduction in stress. And not only that, but you know, I just. heard 50% of US healthcare expenses are. on the last 5 years of life.

when a lot of those people are living. alone and feeling lonely. And there are. simple ways to address that as we've. been talking about. So it's there's a. bottom line that's really relevant here, too. And then the the really the the bit I. imagine a lot of people will, especially. those that are much more spiritually. inclined, will love is the. idea of that karma and how, you know, if. I hug one person or if I'm kind to some. person or express that gratitude or. compassion, it has this sort of. cascading knock-on effect. Yeah. And how they go through the day. So like. in that sense, karma is a very real. thing.

It's very real. Yeah. In every respect, even in the in the. the concept of gossip, where how you. treat someone will spread. I think you. said in your your book that um. when we treat someone badly, people on average gossip that bad. treatment to 2.5 people. Yeah. Which is, you know, which is slightly. terrifying. But it's but it makes sense. Um. Yeah, you know, it's in part of our. theme in our conversation is how we're. all connected and united in these these. superorganisms, some people call them,

through practicing gratitude and sharing. resources that spreads through uh these. social networks. And then the the. complement is also true, which is you. know, and and as much as I don't like. gossip and I didn't like being gossiped. about, it's a human universal. It can be. horrifying and and we've got to worry. about it, like online catfights and it. escalates. Yeah. But we study these social groups and and. the thing that people really gossip. about is when you're not kind, right? They're like. look at what that that A just said these.

harsh things. that spreads through the. network and it it. tries to keep those problematic. tendencies in check. I guess that's a. good thing. It's like a community sort of regulation. tool. Yeah. Thank you so much. I've had a wonderful. brilliant time over the last week. learning more and more about all of your. work and reading and watching your your. content in great detail. This book is. absolutely fantastic. Um it's very. challenging, but it's this this concept. of awe was one was not one that I'd ever.

thought of before. Mhm. You know, you think about these other. sort of emotions, gratitude, compassion, there's a lot written about them, but. I've almost never heard someone talk. about the topic of awe as a very. accessible, but very profound, powerful. human medicine, I would say. And the way. that you do that throughout your book is. um is incredibly important and I've as I. say, I've really never encountered a. book quite like it. So, I highly. recommend everybody goes and gives it a. try and the the reviews on the back by. people like Adam Grant and Steven Pinker. are. I mean, they speak for themselves. So,

thank you for writing such a brilliant. book and thank you for having such a. brilliant, eye-opening conversation with. me today. We have a closing tradition on. this podcast where the last guest asks a. question for the next guest. Huh. Okay, funny. Um the question that's been left. for you. is. do you think. obesity. is a choice? I I I don't. Um.

it's a terrific question, right? And. obesity is I think in the US, I think. the latest estimate is 56% of US. citizens, probably pretty comparable. here in the UK. Um and man, when I think about the food. that we. put in our bodies, the lack of activity that are not cho-. chosen, right? That depend on what kind. of soft drink that's readily available. and cheap, and how fast food is so.

cheap, and provide us provides us a. certain kind of high. To me, that says. that it's mainly not a choice of the. people eating, but it is a choice of the policy makers. So, I would. make that. argument. And there is some sort of three lines. between the conversation we've had today. about stress, connectedness, and all of. those things as it relates to food and. diet and and eating, which is again. social constructs and. And access to awe. Um there is a. movement parks, living near parks.

London is one of the greenest cities in. the world. Living near parks boost life. expectancy, I think through awe. Uh there's a movement in the United in. California. that everybody should be 10 minutes. public transport away from a park for. free. Um 360 million people. uh went to the national parks in the. United States last year. So, there's a. lot of. with this stress profile that we've been. talking about culturally, there are easy. solutions, and one and one pathway is. through being outdoors with awe.

I want to close then just on that point. about a sort of an adjacent point to. what you've just said, which is about. and you also talked about prisoners. earlier. I read once upon a time, when I. was doing some research for one of my. books, that um. prisoners who had a exposure to. nature. Yeah. were significantly less likely to become. depressed than those that were like. basically looking out at concrete. Yeah. Um. which is mind-blowing to me. It is. The thought that just seeing nature can. have a massive impact on our our chances. of depression and anxiety.

Yeah. Do we need to put more of that stuff in. prisons then? We do. We do. And that, you know, you've. been challenging me, Stephen, like, all. right, what do we do? Just look at a hospital, put some nature. in it, right? Look at a prison. Prisons. are horrifying in the United States. Norway has more open prisons with views. and so forth. Uh different recidivism rates. So, I. take from this science and I'm really. grateful to you for profiling it, you. know, in such a. uh. a scholarly and thoughtful way. Like, we.

got to use this knowledge, and prisons. is a nice application. But, even in our own homes. Yeah. You know, we most of us are living in. these white boxes in big cities, and. those that that live in social housing. unfortunately are living in even worse. conditions often. Yep. Um and nature is somewhat of a. privilege, it seems. It shouldn't be. Especially in the home environment, just. having some plants. I have zero in here. I have loads upstairs cuz I have a. girlfriend and she's just she's very in. touch with these things, but she's she's. filled my house with with plants, but. that's a simple thing we can all do to. be happier every day is just have a bit.

more nature in our in our environment. It's not a bad first step. Okay, thank you so much. Thank you, Steven. It's been an an honor. and a a pleasure. Quick word from one of our sponsors. I've got a tip for all of you that will. make your virtual meeting experiences, I. think, 10 times better. As some of you may know by now, BlueJeans by Verizon offers seamless. high-quality video conferencing. But, the reason why I use BlueJeans versus. other video conferencing tools is. because of immersion. Their tools make you feel more connected.

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