The Gottman Doctors: Women Tend to Be More Unhappily Married & Non-Cuddlers Have an Awful Sex Life!

women tend to be more Unhappily Married. than men and 80% of the time women bring. up problems in a relationship but 69% of. all problems are not solvable so if you. rely on problems getting solved as an. indicator of the success of the. relationship it's not going to look good. Dr Jong and Dr Julie gotman. world-renowned researchers and clinical. psychologists who've been married 36. years and have spent the last 50 years. studying love you made something called.

love lab what is that we followed 3,000. couples it taught us the difference. between what masters of relationship do. and what disasters do what advice would. you give to me then cuddle 96% of non-. cuddlers had an awful sex life anything. else yes the hookup culture is thriving. is that a problem yes why okay so let me. point out something that everybody needs. to hear so and also kissing is very. powerful men who kiss their wives. goodbye women they leave for work live.

four years longer than men who don't in. your research you found that during. conflict couples who show four key. behaviors mean that an argument is. doomed yes and they are criticism. defensiveness the third one was the. worst and that was that was the best. predictor of relationship breakup and. the fourth. was John Julie can you role play the. behavior that a couple who are destined. to fail would exhibit oh yes.

so it's absolutely crazy to me that so. many of you have decided to watch our. show um and so many of you have decided. to subscribe to our show we now have. five million subscribers on YouTube. which is a number that I just can't. comprehend and it's a dream that I. absolutely never could have had we. started the dire of a CO just over three. years ago now and in my wildest. expectations we might have had 100,000. subscribers by now so you can imagine. how shocked I am that so many of you. have chosen to tune into these. conversations every week um and spend.

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I'll ask from you is to hit the. Subscribe button let's get on with the. [Music]. episode John Julie you've both been. studying the subject of love for more. than 50. years you've written books you've done a. lot of primary research you run. something called The Love lab I'm going. to start with you Julie. M what is the mission.

that you're on and why love that is the. most wonderful question in the universe. here's why we have a world as we all. know that is full of conflict is full of. uh antipathy is full of violence. domestic. violence all kinds of clashes between. people and we wanted to focus on love.

because love is the great healer right. it heals people's hearts it heals. people's Souls it brings people together. it unifies people but nobody has taken. relationships. 101 nobody knows how to have productive. relationships that are calm and gentle. and. compassionate and at the beginning of. the research we had no idea of what.

successful couples did to really. solidify their relationship and sustain. it so John and his wonderful colleague. Robert levenson did some of that. earliest research that taught us the. difference between what masters of. relationship do and what disasters do so. we could help as many people as possible. and John the same question for you with. all the work that you've done in your. life life what is it that you're seeking.

to deliver to the person that consumes. that work what is it you're seeking to. do for them well Bob and I started. studying relationships because we were. so incompetent at it and we we're just. too clueless guys going from one. relationship disaster to another and we. were really curious about whether there. were people out there who could do it. well and we found they were and you know. and then we thought how are they.

different from people you know who like. us really went from one disaster to. another and we had no idea we really had. very few hypotheses when we started so. it was just curiosity uh and we weren't. interested in helping anybody at all we. were just curious about finding out what. the differences were and then 26 years. ago Julia and I decided to work together. and she's a clinical psychologist she. wants to help people and and I thought.

it was impossible to change. relationships because if you can predict. with such high accuracy that a. relationship is doomed or it works how. can you change it you know it seemed. seemed impossible but Julie's really an. optimist and really cares about people. and so we got together and we thought. well we need a theory if we're going to. help people cuz every relationship is. different and so first we built a theory. and then we tested it so that's how I.

got into it really I didn't have a. mission so how did you both come to. study and work together on the subject. of love in. particular well John had already been. studying it right right so uh we met. what almost 38 years ago and what. happened is that I'd be coming home. talking about my clinical cases over. dinner John would come home from the lab. and be sharing the statistics and the.

findings he had that were really. thrilling and after a while um he was he. was garnering such incredible. information such great knowledge that. one day we were out in the middle of the. sea. canoeing and I said honey let's take. this stuff out of the Ivory Tower let's. let's form Theory and interventions. based on what these successful couples. are doing doing to really sustain their.

love it's such a beautiful thing we see. and he said sure why not and we did and. joh what was that research well you know. Bob and I found that there really were. masters of relationships and we spent a. Dozen Years studying gay and lesbian. couples too same thing there there were. people who knew how to have. relationships and they were very. different from the couples who are. struggling and most of the clinical. books have been written by therapist IST. who never saw the good relationships and.

so we had information that was very new. and it was pretty fascinating um but the. question was could we actually turn a. disaster into a master could we prevent. relationship disaster we didn't know so. it was kind of a question you know was. it just correlation or were the findings. causal and so it was really uh curiosity. that continued and how many research.

papers have you published now uh couple. hundred I think and how many books. between you have you written Julie I. think we're on 52 maybe how many couples. have you studied John well a latest. study involved over 40,000 couples. looking at their questionnaires and. couples about to start therapy but. following couples in the lab that the. kind of lab that Bob levenson and I. created.

uh about 3,000 couples and Bob studied a. group of couples for 20 years the same. group of couples in their 40s or in. their 60s when they started the study. and he actually was able to get funding. for 20 years so the group of couples in. the 40s were now in their 60s and you. can compare them to the couples 20 years. ago who were in their 60s so wound up. being you know a 40-year longitudinal. study has anyone ever studied couples. for that l length of time no not really.

it really was a first when people think. about the subject of. love I don't think they necessarily hold. it in such high importance in their life. they think about other thing especially. as it correlates to our health outcomes. so like you know my physical health. outcomes are they right in. deprioritizing love as a path to having. good physical health or does our love. and relationships correlate to our our. physical health our chance of disease. these kinds of things there's a new.

field that started kind of when I. started doing my research and it's. called social epidemiology a guy named. Leonard Sim started at Berkeley with his. student Lisa burkeman and they did this. uh study called the Alam County study. where they studied 9,000 people and S. was interested in diet he was interested. in cholesterol and he found that Chinese. American immigrants just lived a lot. longer and were a lot healthier than.

Americans were even Chinese American. immigrants so he was kind of curious. about you know what really was the. difference was it the diet was it and he. found it was really Community it was. really that these people moved with. their friends and he found in general. that the quality of people's closest. relationships really predicted longevity. very strong prediction too so it's. become a whole field called social. epidemology and people have studied the.

immune system and you know found that. all over the planet people who are. socially isolated who have bad. relationships don't live as long they. get sick and die a lot younger and that. people have great relationships they. live a lot longer and the quality of. their life is better they're a lot. happier and so it seems to make a real. big difference modern social psychology. has been finding the same thing with. people's relationship to. strangers that that affects health so if.

you reach out to strangers and in in the. morning if you're commuting having a. conversation with the commuter next to. you then you're open to learning about. their lives that also affects your. Health and. Longevity so we're really a very social. species it's interesting because we. spend a lot of time you know going to. the gym or thinking about our diet or. something but what you were saying and I. think what a lot of your work has. uncovered is that we should be investing. in the same way in relationships in a.

really intentional way and especially. when we consider the nature of the world. now where we're getting lonier and more. detached than ever before no one taught. me at any point in my life to think of. my relationships like the gym yeah right. what's your take on that Julie well uh. being a gym buff. myself I love going to the gym but um. one thing that I'm really remembering is. that uh people people whose parents.

divorced typically they live four years. less on average than people who grew up. with an intact family people who grew up. with divorce and then ended up divorcing. them themselves their own relationships. divorcing lived eight years less so you. can see how important love is and we're. beginning to understand all of this by.

looking at things like. oxytocin. serotonin versus things like adrenaline. and cortisol which are stress. hormones that will flood the body and. stress the body when we're in a bad. relationship you made something called. The Love. lab very curious name place I think I'd. like to go um what is the love lab. well it got named that by the BBC when.

they did a a show on our newlywed study. but it was it was basically an apartment. like setting and couple spent 24 hours. there and the cameras were rolling the. whole time they were awake and and like. Bob and I did we synchronized. physiological data to the video time. code so we could you know see what was. what they were doing what they were. saying to one another and at the same. time be able to look at their heart. rates and their blood velocity and.

things like that and and we measured. other physiological things and immune. variables as well so that was basically. the lab and we followed couples a couple. of months after the wedding many of them. uh as they got pregnant and had babies I. learned how to study parent infant. interaction from some of my friends who. were experts in that field and we. followed the children as they got older. so that was kind of the lab it was just. to see whether uh there was any.

predictability in relationships if we. weren't telling people what to talk. about just watching them as they might. normally go about a typical day so let. me get this straight you you have these. people come to this sort of normal. setting kind of like an apartment but. it's really a laboratory where they're. being studied for their physiological. biomarkers of I don't know heart rate. things like that you just watch them. well they're being videotaped right and. that video tape then afterwards is.

analyzed hundredth of a second by. hundredth of a second corresponding also. to their physiological. measures and we're analyzing all of that. tape in terms of the content of what. they're saying what their body movements. are what their facial expressions are. what emotions are they expressing how. are they expressing those emotions if. any are they responding to each other's.

bids for connection we looked at so much. data and it was a gold mine it taught us. so much not only about the best way for. couples to manage conflict but even more. important how do couples create a deeper. friendship with one another and by then. we'd already known that friendship in a. relation ship also helps create more.

passion and good sex in a longlasting. relationship so there was so much for us. to learn it was exciting going into that. study at the love lab what were the sort. of. big things that you discovered. afterwards that are misconceptions about. relationships so you know I can think of. a couple off the top of my head but. you'll know them better what are the big. misconceptions that you discovered from. that start with you Julie a lot of.

people think that sustaining a good. relationship takes huge effort you know. takes really figuring out things like. active listening where if you say to me. Stephen you know I am really angry. because you keep leaving the lid off the. toothpaste what's the matter with you. and how do I respond to that well we. would learn that criticism for example.

you always you never those are. criticisms didn't work to manage. conflict on the other hand what we also. saw is that when somebody made a little. tiny bid for connection for example. there was a big window in this apartment. looking out the window and saying oh my. God there's a beautiful bird in the tree. what does your partner do this proved to. be incred ibly important does your.

partner either turn against you by. saying stop interrupting me I'm trying. to read or ignore you completely which. is silence not paying attention or look. out the window too and say huh. cool that's all it took to create a. better friendship for a couple and we. found that the couples who were. successful in the Long Haul turn towards.

each other's little bits for connection. 85% of the time the couples who ended up. splitting up unhappy divorced. 33% of the time so listen to that. difference just between saying uhhuh and. saying nothing let's start there then I. am I think I am guilty of being very. very bad at responding positively to.

bids for connection from my partner this. is actually one of the central issues. that we've struggled with over the last. couple of months is my partner will come. home like usually I'm coming home she's. already home just before me and I'm. still I've still got my work brain on. I'm thinking about work I rush into the. living room sometimes I'll like say. hello to her then I'll go on my laptop. and I start working and she comes over. and says something to me and because I'm. focused on my work I either acknowledge. her but without turning my head or. sometimes I'll just give one sec babee.

I'm busy or say something words to that. effect right it's clearly causing a. problem I'm I'm guilty of the same. thing I was working on a on a book uh. and Julie said you know I go into the. living room and sit down and you don't. even look up and I sit there for a while. and then I get up and leave and you. haven't even noticed that I was there so. I was guilty of it too turning away and. we worked on it we did work on it the. other thing too though with John and.

I've I've learned to accept this right. over time is that John grew up in a. little teeny weeny apartment as a. refugee in New York City and it was loud. and noisy and there were a lot of people. all around so he had to develop this. incredible sense of concentration and so. when I first met you it was so funny. John um I would be across the kitchen.

counter from John he would be reading a. book he wouldn't even be on his computer. be reading a book and I would say. John uh. John hey John and I would wave my hand. and finally he would say oh yeah I. really didn't hear it he didn't hear it. I mean literally and I had. to understand that with that kind of. concentration he really didn't hear me.

how did it make you feel how did it make. me feel at first it made me feel. invisible. unimportant um. unloved rejected alone you know it made. me feel all kinds of stuff until I. understood wait a minute there's. something in his. brain that's very different than my. brain because I'm always you know I have. no skin I'm like super aware of. everything around me okay so John give.

me some advice then from your studies in. the love lab if my partner makes a bid. for connection yeah what are the ways. that people typically respond and how. should I respond when you looked at the. couples that were most successful over. the long term um how do they respond how. should I respond give me some advice. yeah I think I I think the really great. relationships have this motto that when. their partner is upset you just stop. everything you're doing and listen and I.

I keep a notebook in my back pocket just. for that purpose so if Julie says we. need to talk I whip out my notebook my. pen and I say okay I'm taking notes so. I'm ready to listen to her and you know. it's true that sometimes I'm oblivious. to what's going on around me but you. know I I become much more aware so when. she comes into the living room now I I. stop what I'm doing close the computer. and say how you doing what's on your.

mind my my issue is with that is I work. in the living room sometimes so what's. the balance between me being able to. work in the living room or work in like. a public home space without being. interrupted while also not rejecting my. partner accidentally or you know lowkey. intentionally I I think the solution is. to create a ritual around connection you. know so if she if she really needs to. talk to you she can you know give you a. signal that it's important for her to.

connect with you and then it's not. always happening you know it's just. happening when it's important and. Julie's like that too so she'll you know. she'll come in and she won't sit there. and and just wait for me to respond. she'll actually go we need to talk and. then I know I get my notebook out but. let me point out something though honey. you're you're talking only about you. know if I'm upset about something so I. have to work in the living room also of. our house um or John may be working in.

the living room and if he's working on. something and I want his. attention I may ask him can I have your. attention for a moment so I need to say. what I need to him and if it's something. that's trivial and he says just a minute. you know I'm working on an email or. whatever okay that's fine you know our. timing is not going to be identical he's.

not going to be available necessarily. all the time I want to talk to him I. won't be either right and so we try to. inquire of one another is this a good. time for us to talk and there's. sometimes when it's not a good time for. you to talk John of course right of. course that's where I think I've. struggled because sometimes I feel like. this is not a good time to talk and I. express that and I think maybe the way. that I'm expressing it isn't soft enough.

maybe I'm you know let me give you one. of my favorite things to say okay which. is honey I would really love to listen. to you right now but I really am feeling. pressured to finish this so can you just. wait however amount of time you know 30. minutes or an hour and then I'll be able. to give you my full. attention see that I want to listen to. you that's the key phrase that tells.

your partner I value you I love you but. there's pressure on me right now too so. please be understanding and I'll be. there for you as soon as I can be you. know in the in the love lab when you saw. these couples who were missing bids for. connection so for the example you gave. Julie of someone looking out the window. and saying babe come and look at this. and then the other person either ignores. it or kind of dismisses it was that.

individual who dismissed it or ignored. it John were they doing that. intentionally did they was it a buildup. of something that's caused them to sort. of passively reject the person or was it. they were just oblivious yeah it's. really hard to know I mean the one thing. I can tell you was the person who got. turned away from kind of crumples a. little bit so regardless of the reason. for the turning away if it's really. habitual. that person making a bid really gets.

hurt by the turning away. and and that I think leads people to. stop. bidding you know to think you know. what's the point and then what happens. well then they they just create this. emotional distance yeah uh and put up. walls and then what happens and then. what happens is that they become lonely. and then what happens quite often an. fair oh they cheat or okay yeah. eventually and it all starts with.

missing a bid for connection potentially. and that becoming a habit many of them. yeah yeah you know I I like to use the. metaphor of a sea anemon you know what. that's like right it's a little sea. creature in a tile pool that that has. all these little fingers all these. little fingers so it may be relaxing. those fingers and opening up and. revealing its. underbelly but when somebody refuses a.

bid for connection it's as if that. little C anomy has been poked right in. the stomach and so all the fingers close. up and shut down and lock down and it. takes a much longer time for that anemon. to unfold its fingers again and be open. yeah it's not safe mhm did you ever find. and I think this is something that I've. talked about before on my relationship. that sometimes when I miss a bid for.

connection it increases the amounts of. bids for connection because I think I'm. guessing that I'm a bit of an avoidant. type based on my history in my childhood. she's a little bit more of an anxious. type so it seems to be the case that if. I say not now babe I'm working then the. amount of bids increase and they they. come they they start to become in my. opinion and I could be well wrong here. they they're not they're not actually. there's not actually something out the. window now it becomes more about trying.

to confirm whether I it's a test right. it's a test yeah that's it feels like a. test yeah right right but also what it. is when especially when there isn't. something outside the window. is very pure and simple I need to. connect with you I need to feel that. connection sure I can imagine it I can. remember it from you know 3 hours ago.

but right now I'm feeling that kind of. little stirring inside of me that need. and I want to connect with you I just. need that. connection so she's attempting to create. that what is this. attune framework John. attune awareness turning toward. tolerance understanding n defensive. empathetic what is this framework yeah. Attunement is really uh you know it's. like two Musical instruments that really. are tuned to one another and when one.

plays the other resonates so uh creating. rituals of connection you know like we. have a ritual every morning you know. where you know I'll say I'll ask Julie. you know what's on your play today what. you know what's your day look like and. she'll say what what does your day look. like so we kind of check in with with. each other and then at dinner we have. another ritual connection and you know. how was your day you know what what. happened how did that how did that. session go and we kind of keep in touch.

with each other with these structured. ways of attuning and in that way you. don't lose touch you don't make. assumptions you know we ask each other. questions like what can I do this week. to make you feel loved and you know when. you have that kind of ritual then you. know you know you're connecting and um. and you're like those two instruments. that are tuned to each other may I add a. little to that um empathy is super super.

important and I I honestly believe that. empathy is probably the most powerful. tool we have to really create connection. with one another so if our partner is. saying to us I'm really upset right now. I'm really angry that I'm doing all the. housework can you attune to that can you.

say first of all tell me more what what. is making that a burden for you so. you're pulling information out and then. your partner might be saying well you. know it's like the second shift for me. I'm at work all day and then I have to. come home and clean the house Etc so I. want to share that with you okay can you. empathize with her can you say ah no. wonder you're probably pretty tired when. you come home right so you really do.

need my support is that what you're. trying to tell me mhm that's the. Attunement you see I was going to say. it's quite difficult isn't it because it. often sounds like blame here's the. difference there's a big difference and. this is what we saw in the lab also it. is blame when there's a lot of you in. what your partner is saying for example. you never clean up the kitchen you are.

too lazy to do any housework at the end. of the day what about me you know Etc so. with that kind of blaming and criticism. nobody nobody is going to feel like oh. you're absolutely right you're really. mad at me because I've been a schmuck. and I haven't been helping you with the. housework and that's what you're telling. me no what people have to do when. they're unhappy about something is. describe.

themselves I'm. upset that what's the situation describe. the situation I'm upset that the kitchen. is a mess okay that the kitchen is a. mess is a situation it's not saying. you're a bad person you see and then. step three they need to say what their. positive need is which means how can. your partner Shine for you don't tell.

them what they they're not doing right. or what you resent flip that on its head. and say I would love it if you would. help me tonight with the dishes my. partner did that yesterday actually she. um and I I noticed that she did it so. basically she's in Costa Rica right now. doing a retreat and she sent me a text. saying babe I love it when you tell me. how the podcast went after you finished. recording it now there's several ways. that someone could have said that she.

could have said I hate it when you don't. tell me for example that's right but she. said I love it when you tell me what. she's telling me is to do it more and it. I felt it to be really motivating that. I'll do it more so I started doing it. more I started telling her sending her. voice notes after the podcast but I've. also seen it in relationships where it's. fra framed the it's trying to get the. same outcome but it's framed in the. opposite way it's negative it's I. suddenly feel like I'm on the back foot. and I've done something wrong and I'm a. child being told off by my mother or. something right exactly and what is your.

first response to that defensiveness uh. uh deny it throw it back on them exactly. yep and that's one of the predictors you. know a smaller predictor but still a. predictor of relationship. unhappiness why. does typical couple's therapy fail. John in your opinion well you know it's. not failing very much anymore there are. some very good approaches now some. behavioral approaches that are working.

pretty well and emotionally focused. therapy is working much better so things. have improved um but I think typically. the reason that it fails is that the. therapist doesn't really have the proper. tools for either assessing a. relationship and most therapists don't. do any assessment when a couple comes in. they don't look for you know what are. the strengths in this relationship and. what do I not need to work on and what. are the challenges that I really need to.

work on and not only don't they. typically assess but once once they. start working with a couple they don't. really have the tools as I heard with. therapy it's all about listening you. know and the stat I'm I'm citing here is. that um traditional couples therapy only. had a 35 to 50% success rate right and. you typically think of therapy like you. go there and your job is just to listen. to your partner as they tell you what's. wrong yeah why doesn't that work because. they're telling you typically what's.

wrong with you and the therapist isn't. stopping them isn't saying that's. criticism that's not going to work that. is going to sabotage you getting. listened to so try this instead try. telling your partner what you feel and. what you need instead of describing your. partner and what's wrong with him I. actually saw at a conference I'm not. making this up somebody was training. therapists and this this therapist who.

was doing the training played a. videotape in which a husband said to his. wife you know Sheila you're such a. you only think about yourself and the. therapist said Sheila can you summarize. and reflect back what Harry just said. and empathize with. him I. thought God you know what an idiot I. mean nobody can. empathize with insult and put Downs you.

know why isn't she constraining the way. Harry's talking to Sheila not just. Sheila listening so I think a lot of. times therapists really don't know how. to use a tool they don't know what. really is appropriate what a good. relationship looks like what a good. relationship looks like I'm really Keen. to understand the principles of what. successful couples do from your research. you've highlighted a few of those things. I mean you've got the seven principles. of success marriage what are some of the. most important of those principles first.

of all um we call the first principle. building love Maps you need to keep. asking your partner open-ended questions. to know who they are open-ended. questions are questions like. so what characteristic would you like to. pass down from your family to our child. or what would be your ideal way of.

celebrating Ramadan or Christmas or. whatever holiday so you're asking your. partner questions with answers that have. paragraphs not a one-word answer in. order to keep in touch with who your. partner is what their values are what. their priorities are what their needs. are what their feelings are because. those change over time as you're. together turning toward we talked about.

that was super important expressing. fondness and admiration is very. important so you can feel love and if. you don't tell your partner you love. them or express it with touch which is. incredibly. important then your partner may not be. all that sure that you still do love. them 5 years down the road of course. managing conflict is incredibly. important and that's where we've.

probably done our most significant work. but in addition to that it's honoring. each other's. dreams dreams meaning what are your. hopes and aspirations for the future. they're not going to be compatible. they're not necessarily going to be. identical it doesn't matter can you. support your partner in realizing their. own dream and fulfilling that and. finally creating shared meaning which.

means every one of us is a philosopher. we have our own ideas about what our. purpose in life is well do you tell your. partner what that is for you and you. hear that from your partner that's the. sharing that's. needed and the weightbearing walls and. trust and commitment of course so trust. builds over time and trust is.

essentially answering the question will. you be there for me in all kinds of. different situations will you be there. for me when I'm sick when I'm depressed. when I want to celebrate a success when. I'm frustrated will you be there for me. and nobody will be perfectly but the. more the better so that's. trust and commit of course is are you.

letting your partner know that this. relationship is your journey for life. you are here for life not for you know. the next three weeks and then you'll. think about it again why is. having expressed dreams so important. because I often think that about sort of. my relationship I think our dreams are. not the same they're very different and. sometimes I wonder and I've wondered and.

I think we've both wondered in my. relationship whether that is a big big. issue if it matters but why is it so. important to express your dreams to your. partner and do do they have to be. aligned okay number one they don't have. to be aligned that's one of the big. myths of all time you have to be. compatible you have to have the same. dreams the same passions the same. interest wrong wrong wrong that's not. true in fact often times were attracted. to people who were different from us.

what happens when the dreams are in. Conflict though so if one partner's. dreams is to live in Australia and the. other partner's dream is to live on on. America you know there are certain. situations where one person's dream is. the other person's Nightmare and they're. they really don't have a compromise. that's possible so the one you described. I had a couple like that where she lived. in Switzerland he lived in Uganda she. had an autistic son and that autistic.

son needed desperately a very good. support system to help him cope with the. differences that he lived with every day. so she wanted to stay in Switzerland he. worked for the government in Uganda he. was making a contribution there he did. not want to move to Switzerland and she. knew she wouldn't get the support for. herself son in Uganda so they had.

incompatible totally incompatible dreams. but there was no compromise here so they. ended up breaking up but they knew why. they were breaking up and it was for. good reason are some problems solvable. then and some problems not solvable yeah. it turns out 69% of all problems are not. solvable and just you know we're not. attracted to people who are like us and.

then once we get together we find those. differences although initially very. Tractive pretty annoying you know so. it's really great that he's so. spontaneous but then why can't he ever. stick to a. plan you know and that becomes a source. of irritation and unless people can. really be enriched by those differences. and learn to accept the differences. they're going to be in a lot of trouble. so when we looked at over time at what. people fought about it was 69% of the.

time it was the same issues and what you. you call these Perpetual problems. Perpetual problems yeah and once you. pick somebody to have a relationship. with you've automatically inherited the. problems you'll have for the next 50. years these are problems you can't solve. really right but you can adapt to them. and laugh about them and compromise. around the edges okay so what's an. example of a Perpetual problem in your. relationship oh my my God okay so um.

John first of all he's wearing you know. a a Jewish yam he thinks this is a Halo. right so you know he's. I he's always innocent okay so he calls. me obsessively compulsively neurotically. tidy and he is charmingly sloppy okay so. we have a huge. difference and so. um here's how we've coped with it. because environment is not it's just not.

important for him and for me it's super. important it will disorganize my mind if. my environment is disorganized so when. things start to get to me there's too. much mess too many papers books I can't. make the bed because I'm trying to lean. over a 4ot tall pile of books and I may. break my neck if I try to make the bed. so it gets to that point and then I'll. say to him honey I really need you to.

please clean up the books in the bedroom. he'll say okay then he won't do it then. I'll ask the next week I'll say honey. it's you know I'm I'm really wanting you. to clean this up please he said okay I. will but then he has to I don't know do. something else so it doesn't happen week. three I say to him. okay honey I've said this now twice I'm.

starting to get annoyed he'll say oh. okay all right I'll think I I'll figure. out when I can do. it week. four we're counting down I say okay. we've crossed the threshold I'm now. Angry I really need you to clean up the. books now please and I become a pushy. Jewish Broad that's what happens and he.

goes. oh and he says okay okay because I'm. bigger than he is and I had two older. brothers and I'm really good at. wrestling and stuff and so I clean it up. he cleans it up really fast it's. pristine it's beautiful I savor it then. it starts over again so how do we is. that the pathway to dealing with. Perpetual problems is you just have to. like accept them that it's going.

to so here's the deal with Perpetual. problems we have a method for compromise. we call it the bagel method or maybe the. donut method depending on your culture. okay so in an inner circle you think. about or you write down what can you not. compromise on in terms of your position. your position on this issue what what. can you not it would be like giving up. the bones of your body or that core.

dream you have that is so Central to. your identity that you got to hold on to. that then in an Outer Circle you write. down what you're more flexible about and. those are typically when something will. happen who will do it where it will. happen how much will it cost how long. will it last those nitty-gritty Det. details you share what you've written. down in both circles with your partner.

and you look at the flexible areas. around each of your positions on the. issue and you try to reach a compromise. regarding those. flexible points of view while still. honoring each other's inner core dream. or core need but you must want to change. that about John right you must want to. change of course I want to change it but. you know what John wouldn't be John if.

he was a tidy neat guy and after a time. it's just. adorable it's funny and we have such a. wonderful relationship that it's. hilarious and it's predictable you need. to talk about gridlocked Perpetual. problems that's a whole different story. that's a different story so gridlock is. when you cannot die dialogue about. something because you hold so fast to.

your own position on the issue that you. really want to win this battle it's not. a matter of compromise you know you're. right you want to win and the other. person feels the same way then what you. try to talk without really listening to. one another and understanding at a much. deeper level which is part of our work. what really constitutes our partner's.

position why they holding that position. so. strongly and with your understanding. comes more compassion if you don't have. that understanding if you're trying to. win you get gridlocked to the point. where every fight escalates to the. ceiling you end up yelling or you shut. down shove it under the rug but you can. feel it as you walk around the living. room this this is I mean this is one of. the big problems in relationships John. is that we often feel like our partner.

is trying to change Us in ways that we. don't want to be changed that's right. and I often I've been in a relationship. before past relationship where my. partner would say things that were an. attempt to change me but in doing so she. was actually telling me that she didn't. think I was good enough right oh you see. what I'm saying sure well that's that's. the nature of gridlock conflict yeah and. and part of what what we've done is. invent six. questions that 87% of the time work to.

get people out of gridlock where they. they're asking these questions about. what does this feel like what does this. conversation feel like to you what is it. that you think I'm trying to change. about you and that I don't think is good. enough tell me how that feels and what's. your ideal dream of how we should talk. about things you know and where does. that come from and you know where is it. that you feel unaccepted by me so if you.

can have that conversation a lot of. times you develop the sense of. understanding and then you can. compromise about the gridlock this year. one of the recurring things I've had in. relationships is I'm very involved with. technology in my work so sometimes it's. felt in relationships that I've had that. the person is trying to take my work. away from me so because they're always. complaining that I'm on my phone or I'm. on my laptop or whatever thinking like. they they're trying to change me in a.

way that I'm unwilling to change I'm not. I I love my work I want to I want that. to be a big part of my life right how. how do I go about solving for that so. and that person wants you to do away. with the technology some of the time. right that's how it feels yeah that's. how it feels okay so you need to have a. conversation where each of you. interviews the other person and asks. asks six questions let me go through. those just really quickly what are your.

beliefs values and ethics that are part. of your position on this issue you know. wanting to stay with the technology do. you have some background or childhood. history that relates to your. position why is this so important to you. what do you feel about your position. here what is your ideal dream here what. do you really wish for if the world. could be just like you wanted it. regarding this issue what would it look.

like and is there some life purpose or. goal in this for you that is really. important as you answer those questions. Stephen she's gaining an inside look. into what's deepest and most important. to you regarding this issue then then. you ask her the same questions exactly. the same ones to understand where she's. coming from right and what that creates.

is much more understanding and. compassion for one another about why. each position is so important to that. particular. partner then you try to work on. compromise like I. described. interesting but those questions are. fundamental if you just just argue on. the surface you're not going to get.

anywhere you're going to stay gridlocked. I love my work I want to do my work. period Well does she know why your work. is so important to you what life purpose. that is serving for you does she know. that way down at the core of who you are. in your research you discovered. something which has become pretty iconic. when we talk about relationships and. conflict which is this idea of the Four. Horsemen um you found that during. conflict couples who show four key. behaviors mean that an argument is.

doomed and it's the worst way of arguing. I like really nothing can be gained. beyond that point John what are the four. horsemen and how was this discovered. yeah it you know Bob levenson and I uh. first looked at just the ratio of. positivity to negativity and a conflict. discussion and the first thing we. discovered was that among the Masters. that ra IO was 5 to1 or higher and among. the disaster couples it was 8 average 8.

to1 what does that mean sorry 5 to1 so. if you take the number of seconds that. they're show displaying interest. curiosity affection humor uh shared. humor validation listening to One. Another uh you know saying things like. no tell me more oh wow oh good point you. know things like that and you divide. that by the number of seconds that. they're angry upset you know. disappointed hurt critical defensive.

belligerent you know all these negative. ways these hostile ways of interacting. that ratio of positivity to negativity. was 5 to one or higher among. relationships that work well during. conflict during the conflict yeah so but. the second thing we wanted to know is. well are all negatives equally corrosive. you know and the ones that were the most. corrosive really involved that person. starting off and saying you know as far. as I can tell I'm pretty much fine but.

you're defective here's what's wrong. with you and they started with this. criticism that they thought was. constructive criticism you know and they. hoped their partner would respond by. saying you know God you're so insightful. you know tell me more about how I'm. failing but instead what they got was. defensiveness Counterattack or the. innocent victim posture and that was. that was the second Horsemen of the. Apocalypse the third one was contempt.

and that was the worst that was the best. predictor of relationship breakup of all. that criticism from a place of. superiority I'm better than you you know. I you know I I correct your grammar even. when you're angry or you know I think. I'm more punctual and that's really. important or I'm tidier than you are or. I'm better informed than you are that. sort of snobbery that you know looking. down on their partner may I add. something go ahead with contempt also.

you've got things like name calling you. know calling people bad. names sarcasm. mockery sarcasm can have a real Cutting. Edge it can be funny but then it crosses. over into hurt and the fourth Horseman. is stonewalling which was particularly a. guy thing to do 85% of the time guys. with Stonewall they just shut down and. they don't give these cues to the. speaker that they're listening they're.

not nodding their heads or moving their. facial muscles or uttering these. vocalizations like oh you know not doing. that they're just kind of shut down and. look away and you know when we found. those people's physiology is really. elevated so it wasn't about whether. couples were arguing or not because we. typically think a relationship is doomed. if the couple are like screaming at each. other again it depends on your. definition. okay so screaming at each other is one.

form of. argument and there are certain couples. that are volatile where both partners. are volatile they're very passionate. they're very intense they may raise. their. voices but depending on what's coming. out of their mouths is it criticism is. it contempt is it defensiveness if it's. any of those it's not going to work but. you can also scream I'm so Furious about.

this still describing yourself that's. not going to be a bad thing why is it. men you said talked about stonewalling. there where you kind of shut down and. you you kind of go within yourself and. ignore why is it that men do that more. than women well what I think is that we. men are much more easily physiologically. aroused and the differences are that we. secrete phasal oppression and women. secrete oxytocin much more than. vasopressin and so for us we get once we.

get physiologically aroused it takes us. a long time to calm down and most of. what we feel when we get physiologically. aroused is anger and aggression and we. want to shut our partner down we're much. more aggressive than women are and so we. shut ourselves down you know and when. you look at the dialogue that people. have in their minds when they're. stonewalling it's usually stuff like. just shut up and don't say anything you.

know I you know you always make it worse. when you say something so just be quiet. endure this and that's kind of a male. response do men have more of a. physiological response to arguments are. you like the sweating palms and the. blood pressure you know through. Evolution women have been responsible. for nurturing an infant in order to do. that you have to have a milk letdown. response right through Evolution so.

here's what I mean let's say you know. we're back 3,000 years right there's no. formula in a can so women are. breastfeeding their infants in order for. that breast milk to come down and in in. order to be released to the infant. oxytocin is really important oxytocin. calms you down it relaxes you if you're.

very tense and uptight milk isn't going. to come down at all so women have the. physiology in which to relax more easily. men on the other hand through Evolution. have been the protectors right so if. there's a sabertooth tiger attacking a. group of people who's going to jump up. and defend against that tiger well the. men are.

typically so men's bodies are really. built to stay vigilant and hypervigilant. especially for attack well that attack. doesn't have to be physical it can also. be mental emotional verbal and men will. have the same response we're talking. about flooding here aren't we the. concept talking about flooding yeah what. flooding John so flooding is really. going into fight or flight it's it's.

when we start secreting cortisol and. adrenaline are two major stress hormones. and when we feel attacked when we feel. unsafe you know we start secreting these. stress hormones and there are. implications psychological implications. of being physiologically flooded you. can't take in new information you rely. on overlearned habits it's like. aggression or flight you know you you.

can't listen very well you actually your. hearing is compromised your peripheral. vision is compromised you focus only on. the cues you need to survive the moment. and so it's you you don't wind up being. a very creative Problem Solver or a good. listener when you're flooded if men. flood more than women does this go to. explain why men tend to avoid arguments. more than women cuz I think that's a. stereotype at least that men are much. more avoidant in arguments I think I.

mean it's a stereotype that holds true. to me I've never been sure whether it's. because we're not good at expressing our. emotions or if there's a physiological. reaction in me that's making me go 80%. of the time women are the ones bringing. up issues in a relationship now when. guys bring up the issues sometimes the. women get flooded too so it's not that. women don't get flooded you know yeah. they're a little better at self soothing. than we are are but you know during. during an argument if a woman gets. flooded she really can't listen also and.

she repeats herself as well gets more. strident you know if I'm flooded then. typical advice tells me John it says. never fall asleep if you and your. partner have been arguing about. something yeah what is the best I get. flooded sometimes what is the best way. for me to deal with that if it's late at. night you should go to. sleep go to sleep angry I mean St Paul. was the one who started that and he. wasn't married you know so it's you know.

it sounds like great advice but if it's. going to keep you up and you know you're. going to get a terrible night's sleep. you know shake hands and go to bed give. each other a quick kiss and go to bed. angry what did he start St Paul what did. St Paul start never go to bed wrathful I. think is what his advice was for couples. and that's wrong. yeah okay so if I if I'm in the middle. of an argument and I feel like I'm a.

little bit flooded my maybe my Palms are. a little bit sweaty I should take a time. out is what you're saying Julie yeah. let's talk about that um so if you're. feeling flooded um you really need to. take a break but there's specific steps. to do that. one uh if you're flooded you say I need. to take a break you don't say you do I. need to take a break and say when you'll. come back to continue the.

conversation if you do that then your. partner is not going to feel abandoned. and rejected you go apart for maybe 30. minutes an hour however long maximum 24. hours and you don't think about the. fight don't plan your. rebuttal because that'll keep you. flooded as long as you keep thinking. about the fight so do something s. soothing like reading a book reading a. magazine working out maybe going for a.

run get on your computer get on your. computer do your email don't watch. murder mysteries that's not a good thing. to do so come back at the designated. time when hopefully your body is a lot. calmer and continue the. conversation but you know a. generally consistent result is that. women tend to be more Unhappily Married. than. men.

guys often think everything's fine oh my. God so. true I actually had this conversation. with a former partner where I said and I. shouldn't have said it but I just going. to be honest I said to her in our. relationship I think if you never raised. an issue I think there'd never be an. issue because I just felt like. everything was always fine and every. week she was coming to me with a problem. and had she not come to me with that. problem I think and I might be bsing. myself here I think the relationship.

would have just been great right that's. how it felt and and you know women have. have a lot more depression than men do. as well you know so I I think in a lot. of ways the world is harder for women. the world's a more dangerous place for. women for example the probability that a. woman will be physically or sexually. assaulted in her lifetime is 40% it's 9%. from men in the United States I think. it's harder to be a woman than it is to.

be a man I've sometimes rebutted myself. Julie when I talk when I say what I just. said about our relationship would be. fine if she never brought issues up. because when I zoom out and I go the. issues she's brought up have they made. our relationship better and had she not. brought them up would we have drifted. and I say probably M see what I'm saying. like I feel like my partner has always. played a role in keeping our. relationship close the caretaker yeah. yes is that a real thing yeah that.

totally is a real thing what we saw in. the research is that 80% of the time. women bring up the problems in a. relationship 80% you know vast majority. and I think it's because again women you. know we talked about how men are raised. in society well women are raised in. society to nurture to create connection. contion to maintain the family unit. right to create relationship and make.

sure the relationship is good and solid. and secure so we were raised with. feeling that responsibility for the. relationship being good and when we. detect something isn't so good we're. going to bring it up and that's what. causes a lot of the frustration is that. we we don't realize we don't have. empathy for how the other person is. playing a role in creating whole almost. that make sense because I I understand. as I said my relationship wouldn't be as.

good if my partner didn't bring up. issues but when she brings up issues I'm. like why are you bringing up issues you. know what I mean and it's that having. that empathy sure but again um is she. bringing up issues in a way that doesn't. feel blaming or. critical to be honest to her she is. she's bringing them up pretty well great. it's the way that I'm kind of. interpreting it yeah yeah I think much.

of the problem well easy you know that. happens easily to all of us because you. know we've got these this baggage in our. background that has created filters in. how we hear things how we perceive. things I have a hero on one of these. videotapes there was a lawyer and this. videotape he's helping his wife identify. what in his person personality really. makes her the most angry and he's. helping her do that he's saying well is.

it is it the way I talk is that it and. she says yeah it's the way you talk but. what what is it about the way you talk I. mean is it what you know do I sound what. authoritarian or yes like the King has. spoken and he says yeah well you know I. can I guess I am like that sometimes. works in the courtroom and she says well. it doesn't work with me you know and he. says well that makes sense he's my hero. he just never gets defensive he's saying. tell me more tell me more wow what a guy.

Julie what do we misunderstand about. conflict because you know I've come to. believe that the key to understanding if. a relationship will be successful over. the long term is how well the the pair. resolve conflict is that right wrong. well clearly uh as we said because 69%. of all problems are Perpetual they are. not going to be solved so if you rely on. seeing problems getting solved as an. indicator of the success of the.

relationship it's not going to look good. right so you know what I think what we. need to understand about. conflict that we've written about in our. last book is that if we apply the dictum. of really understanding our partner and. their point of view before before we. work on trying to resolve the problem. we're going to do much.

better conflict also gets a really bad. WP you know conflict you're not supposed. to have conflicts it means if you have a. relationship with a lot of conflict that. means it's a bad relationship total myth. that is not true what we've seen is that. couples who do fight but they fight. right as we wrote about with the tools. that are. describing their own feelings and needs.

rather than blaming the partner then. they're going to really understand each. other so much better as the underlying. dreams within the conflict come out the. underlying family history comes out the. life purpose comes out think about those. big questions in the heart of a. conflict that if they are understood oh.

my God you know so much more about your. partner than you did before conflict how. do I become great at conflict and is. that really what I should be aiming at. should I be aiming at getting becoming a. master of conflict resolution I think so. you know it's not conflict resolution as. much as it is conflict management and my. secret is that notebook in my back. pocket you know so I get it out you know. when we have to talk about something. important and I listen to what you're. saying write it down is it in your.

pocket now it's in my pocket now I'm. thinking of getting one here it is I'm. thinking of getting one yeah it's really. great you know and so like if I say to. her she's upset you know or she wants to. talk about something important you know. I'm listening I'm taking notes so you. know and as I'm writing stuff down it. calms me down and I I'm writing it down. first first I'm saying why does she keep. bringing up issues you know I didn't. want to spend my evening this way but.

then I go oh that's a good point that's. that's interesting you know and I start. realizing that she makes a lot of sense. is part of that moving the issue from. your amydala to your prefrontal cortex. I.E it's moving it from your emotional. Center to your logical Center yeah yeah. I really am CU that's that when you were. saying it I was like that would be you. use the word it calms me down calms me. down that would help calm me down as. well yeah sure when you're taking notes. you know it's more an intellectual.

process as opposed to an emotional. process right so it takes you out of. that emotionally getting stirred up by. what your partner is saying and into. just processing the words the language. writing it down which keeps you calm I. one time I filled up an entire yellow. pad wow she said I want to talk to you. and this I haven't talked to about this. ever and but I need you to really be. quiet and listen and I just kept writing.

stuff down did he listen Julie when on. that occasion he really did it was. phenomenal and the wonderful thing that. you will discover if you take notes to. is that it it makes your partner feel. valued feel important feel like whatever. they're saying is worth noting down. right it blew my mind I had no idea she. felt that those things it's important to. you it's important to you it's so.

important that you're going to take. notes on it my partner often says to me. halfway through an argument she says do. you understand what I'm. saying you know and she and I and that's. quite a curious question because I guess. they're checking to see if yeah you've. heard and understood them which clearly. is so important and that's a good way of. indicating that you do understand or at. least you're you know you're hearing and. understanding mhm then you can say well. here's what I understand and then you. know sometimes I'll do that Julie said.

no that's not. it what what is it I thought I was. hearing you oh you know and oh I missed. that repair attempts you write about. repair attempts in your books what is a. repair attempt John you know here's the. interesting thing is that most people. don't repair very effectively the way an. argument starts is the way it'll go 96%. % of the time so uh I had this woman. named Nancy draus who came to my lab and.

she had written a book of things you can. say when you're starting to get flooded. in an argument it was brilliant book. it's called talk to me like I'm someone. you love and it was really interesting. but she had written these things down. when she was very calm and she wrote the. book that way but we actually went to. the lab and looked at how do couples. actually repair when they try to repair. and what we found was that any thing. that you would do in a business meeting.

will fail in a love relationship let's. take a look at our options and evaluate. them what are our priorities here what's. our fundamental goal let's be rational. about this let's be rational about this. let's evaluate the costs of one option. versus another. doomed and the only thing that worked. with somebody would say you know God you. know I'm sorry I I said that you know. let let me try again or they would say.

you know um I'm really starting to feel. defensive could you could you say that a. gentler way and those kinds of repairs. that focused on emotion they worked and. the earlier they made them in the. conversation the more effective they. were so these are attempts to repair the. relationship or the argument from one. side of the argument jul right yes in. the middle of the conversation so if one. one person senses it's getting off track. to get it back on track they may say one.

of these repair phrases but if the. repair is going to be successful the. other person has to accept the repair so. if John is saying to me hey I'm starting. to feel defensive can you say that you. know in a gentler. way I could either say no way forget it. you deserve all the criticism. which is rejecting the repair or I could. say ah you're right let me let me try.

again and say it a different way that's. accepting it but there's also repair. after an argument that has felt horrible. and then how do you process and repair. that terrible communication you had. that's a whole another that's what I was. to say of course it was here. right we're telepathic yeah so that. coming back to it we have a method for.

doing that a five-step method for. revisiting a really regrettable incident. that may have happened in the. relationship when you're calmer and and. that's very effective what is that fight. please give it to me yeah let me that. okay so it we actually have a little. booklet that has all this structured out. that a lot of people keep in their glove. compartment because some for some reason.

arguments happen when you're going 70 M. an hour down the freeway right never. fails so pull out the book okay in the. booklet the first step is each person. addresses a list of emotions that we've. printed out and says out loud which. emotion they had during this regrettable. incident first of all and they can name. as many as they want and there are. things like hurt angry abandoned. rejected and so on secondly each person.

has a chance to describe their point of. view about what happened from beginning. to end of this incident while the other. person here we go again takes. notes so at the end of the person's. narration they then summarize what they. heard that person say to make sure they. got all the good points and then says. something validating like okay from your.

point of view I can see why you felt. that way the way it's narrated is. crucial it it sounds like I felt that. you were angry at me I saw this angry. look at your face I heard you say leave. me alone and get out of here I heard I. saw I felt mhm I. imagined so it's all about I it's not. saying you said this mean thing to me.

which is critical all right so each. person has a chance to share their. perception that way and their partner. summarizes and validates what they heard. third people look at did I have any. feelings during this that were actual. triggers that were feelings that got. started long before this. relationship in another relationship. maybe or even at home with my caretakers.

or my family if those feelings got. triggered again here and now then you. share what feeling got triggered which. we call an enduring. vulnerability and say where it may have. gotten started before this. relationship that's step three step four. you're finally taking responsibility for. what you contributed to this regrettable. incident by saying what was your state.

of mind when it happened I was really. stressed I needed time alone you know. Etc and then specifically saying what. you regret saying or doing during the. incident and apologizing for it now note. how late the apology is coming you're. not aping right away because that. doesn't work you don't know what you're. apologizing for if you haven't first. heard the impact of that incident on.

your partner so step four is apologizing. and then hopefully your partner accepts. your apology and finally step five is. saying one thing your partner can do. differently one thing you can do. differently to avoid something like this. from happening again then you're done. the repair attempts somewhat sounded. like I was going to say backing down but. it was more like taking an object one of. you taking an objective view on the. situation and kind of stepping outside.

and saying I'm feeling like this it's. almost like you're like stepping out of. the video game grabbing the controller. versus being in the video game is that. kind of like an accurate description I. think so yeah yeah cuz sometimes that. does happen in my relationships where my. partner will almost take a meta analysis. on the situation and. go I'm not feeling this or I sorry. uh I like take a meta approach they. almost like step outside and give a. commentary and that diffuses it I don't. think you're listening to me something.

like that yeah well they got to be. careful about that they have to be. careful they shouldn't be number one. analyzing you and where you're coming. from and they shouldn't be blaming. you're not listening to me shouldn't do. that but if they say I'm not feeling. listened to right now yeah let me try. again yeah that's great interesting what. about sex and Intimacy in these subjects. what have you learned about the role of.

kissing in the love lab interesting yeah. I mean you know we haven't done a lot of. research on sex we we did some in that. newlywed study cuz sex had gone down. dramatically for most couples uh even. three years after the first baby was. born and so we're asking people how did. they cope how did they keep sex alive. but the biggest study done on this. question was done uh in a book that came. out called the normal bar uh Christiano.

North is the first author of that and. they analyze 70,000 people in 24. countries and try to discern what's. different about people who say they have. a great sex life and people who say they. have an awful sex life how are those two. groups of people different and they. discovered that it was the same across. the whole planet and and there are. really about a dozen things that people. do have a great sex life and saying I.

love you every day and meaning it is one. of them giving. compliments uh romantic gifts having a. lot of touch cuddling so of the people. who don't cuddle only 4% of them said. they had a great sex life 96% of the. non- cuddlers had an awful sex life so. touch is very important important even. physical touch even in public affection. in public was a big thing and really you.

know that kind of connection the. romantic date you know the Romantic. vacation that's what they did so nothing. involved kissing or what happened in the. bedroom so none of that is there but. there has been research on just kissing. and it turns out that not every culture. do humans kiss but in the ones they do. kiss is very powerful very erotic for. most most couples and it's a nice. Gateway into eroticism I found this.

really interesting study um in your work. where it said a 10-year German study. that found that right said again you can. repeat the study better than I can men. who kiss their wives goodbye when they. leave for work live something like four. years longer than men who don't so and. that's a Priory kiss you know don't. forget Sten they're getting mured being. muted but the sixc kiss which we. recommend has much more potential than.

that pick on the she cheek what is the. sixc kiss a kiss that lasts at least six. seconds why not five or four because uh. oxytocin gets secreted with a 20 second. hug or a 6C kiss you're both secreting. oxytocin and that creates a sense of. psychological safety and connection and. bonding and bonding what what do you. think about the subject of um sex Julie. and you know how important it is for a.

relationship how much should we be. having sex does it really matter is it a. predictor of long-term success in. marriage great questions um that my. clients ask me a lot and there's huge. variability in sexual preference some. couples actually don't want to have sex. at all both people don't want to have. sex they'd rather have kind of a sibling. relationship ship almost if they're both. content with that then they can have a. very successful relationship some.

couples really want to have sex a lot. you know all the time and it's a really. important component of the. relationship uh and everything in. between when you run into trouble is the. following and I've seen this so many. times the men who I guess I would say. are hyper master Uline they think that. cuddling is too infantile so they don't.

want to cuddle and the only way they can. accept physical contact which they. desperately need is through sex period. penetrative sex penetrative sex that's. right and the woman has 17 children. she's trying to make dinner you know. she's. exhausted um she may not want to have. sex near nearly as much as he does so he. begins to feel deprived of touch but.

instead of complaining about that he. says we're not having enough. sex and she says I'm not getting enough. affection and there you have you know. some conflict that has to get sorted out. it's like they're speaking two different. languages of intimacy you what I mean. basically in a sense they are they are. though typically the in these. relationships really basically need. touch and can they accept cuddling as.

something that's just as masculine as. penetrative sex. well if they really think about it and. if they experience it then yeah you C. they can then things really will tend to. improve the research there John is. suggesting though as you said that life. is foreplay because if like the the. kissing on the way out the door and the. touching my partner's back and the. cuddle leads to a better sex life then.

we should see life public displays of. affection all that kind of thing as an. investment in what happens tonight in. the bedroom right I think that's really. true every positive thing you do in a. relationship is foreplay and the couples. who a lot of times the couples who stop. having sex have also shut down high. conflict couples of stuff having sex. have shut down. other things other sensual parts of. their lives as well you know they're not. having much fun and you know 80% of the.

40,000 couples we studied said that fun. had come to die in the relationship. there was much play there wasn't much. Adventure it wasn't just sex everything. shut down all the things that were. really delightful you know exploring new. kinds of Cuisine you know traveling. uh playing games together you know. playing sports together how do we stop. that happening though you know because. I've often wondered people often said to.

me that eroticism and attraction is. about novelty and spontaneousness and. doing all that kind of thing and then. they've said that love is about. familiarity and you know Comfort which. are these are two opposite things let me. answer that the person who said that. it's all about spontaneity and mystery. at so on has never done any research the. research shows that the.

familiarity the emotional connection. really knowing your partner creates in. the long run much more passion what much. better sex actually than maintaining. mystery but not really connecting to one. another the way people need to there's a. wonderful book by Emily ngosi called. come as you are that reviews This.

research and it shows that first of all. women have more prerequisites for. eroticism than men do Jeffy Chase once. said women need a reason for sex men. need a place that's all so you know but. it's true. men men don't need to feel safe to feel. sexual women do women need to feel. psychologically safe and that means. emotional connection it also means there.

can't be a long to-do list of things. that they have to get done that's been. neglected the dog's been taken out you. know and has done his business and all. of that and then the situation feels. erotic to a woman and she's receptive. let me point out something in addition. to that that most men don't know at. least in the United States one out of. four women have been sexually molested.

or sexually assaulted by the age of. 18 and that's only the women who report. it it's probably one out of three maybe. 40% including the ones who haven't. reported it so when women have that. history not not to mention thousands of. years in their bones of being seen only. as sex objects and being raped you know.

every other. day you get to understand why women need. safety much more so than men yeah we. wrote a book called The Man's Guide to. women to convey all of these bits of. information that have been researched so. familiarity is the basis for AIC. not for the absence of a rism that's a. myth so I've heard a lot about. epigenetics recently which is this idea.

that trauma can be passed on from one. one generation to the next and with that. in mind if women have been sort of sex. objects throughout history and have been. raped and those kinds of things it's. understandable that as you say Julie. that they have like an inbuilt need for. safety that men might not understand in. the same way exactly which what what. does that say for to a man what advice. do you then give to a man is is the. advice you have to make your partner. feel safe for them to be aroused or to. okay yes what else was in that book by. the way it's quite an interesting book I.

feel like I need to read it yeah it's. well you know it's really that awareness. of emotional connection and. psychological safety being so important. to women and also realizing that men who. do housework get a lot more. sex is that something Julie told you or. is that no that is it's actually an. empirical result yeah but specifically. honey they have to do the vacuum in yeah. and get the books off the. bed interesting okay are you seeing a.

difference in our relationship with sex. um as the world is changing because. there's some stats that suggest we're. getting more and more sexless as a as a. society have you seen any changes in. your 50 years studying love towards. attitudes about sex or you know gender. roles have changed in that time as well. in society so you know I wouldn't say. it's sexless but I would say it's. Loveless more Loveless in the sense uh.

you know again I don't know what it's. like in England or in other countries so. much but in the United States the hookup. culture is a is you know alive and. thriving there's so many websites in. which um men and men women and women men. and women are just hooking up meaning. meeting up for the first time having sex. and departing the end is that a. problem yes you know why because in that.

kind of sex there's no emotional. connection zero and I've heard this from. both men and women actually that when. they leave they feel more empty than. before they started having that sex what. do you think that is no emotional. connection it's impersonal sex they. don't know who they're having sex with.

so you know it's almost like. masturbating practically so you know. there's a lot of couples who are doing. that but they're they're not committing. in long-term relationships as much as. they used to and I think there's several. factors involved in that one is they've. seen their parents divorce so they don't. believe in marriage or commitment as an. institution that they should live.

to um secondly women have come into the. workforce again in the last 50 years and. career is equally important to many. women as it is to. Men on that point do you see issues with. women becoming more successful in that. emasculating men to some degree because. I read about a study that um said. there's an expectation in society for.

men to provide more at home financially. and then a separate study showed that um. women and it women's sort of equality. with men in terms of their pay and. education has is getting closer and then. the third study says that men can feel. emasculated in the presence of a smarter. more successful women and they find it. less attractive so if you put all this. together and you go okay women are. getting richer and more intelligent um.

men are emasculated by that but men. still have this ex social expectation. that they'll pay the bill in that. framework you go Jesus Christ this is. going to be difficult. for you know and you can look at it. another way and say there's less of a. pool for women who typically want to. date men that have a certain level of. education and a certain level of money. the pool is smaller than ever before so. is this you know this some of the issues. of the the mo some of the challenges of. the modern world you're right yeah. you're absolutely right about that the.

roles are really changing and um you. know I remember this feeling myself. actually as I built my career and John. and I were together and I kept thinking. no no no I should be a housewife I. should just be a mom I should just be. taking care of the home I shouldn't be. devoting all this time to my career but. I love my career I want to work and so. there would be this turmoil inside about.

who should I be and I think men are. feeling that too for example as I said. earlier men are really wanting to be. fathers more but how can you be an. involved father when you're working like. crazy extra overtime to make more money. right it's impossible also those old. myths have a hard time falling away that. men who make more money have more status.

have more value as human beings are. better Partners that's so more male are. more male are more masculine it's so not. true another thing to keep in mind is. that women used to make 79 cents for. every. dollar that men made now they make 81. cents for every dollar you think that's. a big change it is not so women are.

still fighting for equality in terms of. career opportunities work opportunities. and so on and valuing their. career. men sometimes you know are struggling. who should I be now I used to be the. provider who should I be well that's. what we've learned right cuz we come. from a generation where like my father. might have been the provider and my. granddad was the provider so I've.

modeled that and said well for me to be. a man like my father and I need to be. able to do this but that's right that's. right it's a good thing that we're. getting closer to equality of course and. I know the pay Gap is still there's. still a distance there between men and. women but it it kind of you can see. there being some kind of challenge for. men who now don't know their role but. Society still has an expectation that. they'll pick up the bill you bet it's a. difficult conundrum isn't it but it's. well it's really hard on men you know I.

think men in many ways are having as. hard if not harder time now in figuring. out what their role is and who they want. to be compared with women I mean our. fight started earlier Right started in. the 70s with women's Liberation and Men. kind of sat back and went what what's. happening I think I think men are. discovering the importance of. relationships you know uh we typically.

have had worse emotional support systems. you know uh many men don't don't have a. best friend don't have close friends and. their only con really close connection. is with the woman that they live with. and or married to and so I think men are. discovering how important social. connection is in their lives compareed. to achievement you know I mean there's. this lie that. got sold to women that if they really.

are the caretakers of relationships. they'll be happy the lie to men is if. you are successful in your career you'll. be happy neither neither lie is really. useful because both men and women need. close connections they need we need. friends we need you know there's an. epidemic of loneliness you know in the. world right now and that's a killer we. really need to reach out more not only. to make good friends but also reach out.

to strangers create community and that. needs to change you know what's really. interesting I mean just think about it. if you go on the internet and you look. at what women are looking for in a. partner what's the first word they say. they don't say rich they don't say. highly successful great. achievements typically they say.

sensitive right sensitive emotionally. aware. caring so hopefully men can absorb that. is that it's interesting because they do. say that yeah and then they also say. strong and they say um can protect me. and and again it feels like a pole. because on one end it appears that that. sort of sensitive emotional openness at.

somewhat sensing contrast to like. the it's like how do I very well you. have a very lucky part those people. probably listening don't even know what. I did but I was just flexing my guns it. was the gun show so like you see what. I'm saying it feels like a contradiction. it's like how you be the this and this. the testosterone filled beasts that's. going to save the day and then the true. but keep in mind that being strong. doesn't mean being.

unemotional sometimes it takes more. strength and courage to voice emotion. than it does to shut them down and what. they're talking about you know let's not. forget that women are still getting. raped still getting assaulted still. getting attacked everywhere still. getting murdered right so they want a. man allegedly who can physically protect. them for sure that would feel great.

because women still feel. unsafe. however that doesn't necessarily. correlate with being. unemotional I guess the contradiction. goes both ways because men also want a. woman that is you know compassionate and. soft but they also wanted to just be. like to not not be emotional and not. keep that so it's like a contradiction. both ways yeah yeah yeah we want. everything right all at once and that's. part of the problem just closing off on. this point about sex cuz I had one last.

question which is does the research show. that couples that have the best sex life. talk about it the most yes I had this. debate with my friend and I was. wondering yes no question coupl who talk. about it have a better sex life and how. should they be talking about it give me. some advice on how to talk about sex. with my partner you need to talk about. it in a way that is uh accepting and. loving you know so you talk about what's. really great in the relationship what. you've enjoyed what you love about your. partner what you find sexy about your. partner what you wish for more of you.

know and right we have we created what. we call got. sex it's isn't that a I we didn't think. of the title I promise so it's it's a. kit that includes seven different uh. structured conversations to have with. your partner about sex. that have to do with what do you prefer. specifically uh how would you like sex.

to be initiated when would you like it. initiated how can we refuse sex without. massacring each other's. egos how should sex be completed Etc so. the couples who talk much more openly. and more comfortably about that do much. better sexually and for love Maps we. have 100 questions you can ask a man. about his erotic world and 100 questions. you can ask a woman about her erotic.

world and they're not the same questions. men and women h of well just people. generally even in sort of homosexual. relationships and heterosexual. relationships have very different. fantasies yeah often linked to their. trauma where wherever they come from. whatever what happens in a relationship. when one partner isn't willing to do the. fantasy that the other partner is really. craving how how does one navigate that. well couple of ways one is the person. who's not willing to do it can maybe. describe it verbally because couples who.

talk more during sex actually have. better sexual relationships too so if. the partner who doesn't want to do what. the other wants at least describes it. verbally Whispering it in some kind of. really cool tone well the guy can get. off on that or the woman can get off on. that right I'm imagining you're a. cheerleader right now and I'm the.

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head to linkedin.com. doac 24 to get started right now let's. talk about Zoe who you may know because. they're a sponsor of this podcast and. I'm an investor in the company you guys. know health is my number one priority. Zoe's growth story has been absolutely. incredible so far they're doing science. at a scale that I've never seen before. because of their members and recent. breakthroughs and research they can now. continue to offer the most. scientifically Advanced gut health test. on the market previously the test.

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love lab Research indicates that. betrayal lies at the heart of every. failed relationship this was in your. book the seven principles of of making. marriage work betrayal there are a lot. of ways to really betray a partner in a. relationship I mean you know cheating is. one way but any kind of betrayal is. something that needs to be healed in a. relationship for example if you've uh. teamed up with somebody in your family. against your partner uh at some point.

that may feel like a betrayal um you. know and it doesn't have to be sexual. but it's something that needs to be. healed because trust and commitment are. so important as the Bedrock of every. relationship if I was to say tell me the. exact you know in your love lab two c a. couple walk in and they they're there. for 24 hours in your love lab and you're. studying them can you. roleplay the behavior that a couple who. are destined to fail would exhibit oh.

yes how many ways can we do that okay. God these crossover puals are really. hard. H you know I'm really sick and tired of. you always paying attention to your. stupid crossw word puzzles they're just. they're such a waste of time I don't. know why you do that it's it's just. stupid yeah well I I I think they're too.

challenging for you. intellectually that's why you avoid them. what are you talking about I could do. that with almost my eyes CL I never see. you do crossover puzzle because it's. stupid activity why would I want to do. it I think I think you're avoiding it. because you're avoiding challenges in. your life you do that in every phase of. your life avoid challenges you always. take the easy Road you think that. marrying you was the easy Road are you. kidding okay so that's kind of what it.

looks. like I've seen that before have. you so have we what's the opposite then. using the cross word example again if. you role playay the opposite scenario. okay boy some of these Challenger cross. puzzles are really. hard really yeah oh did you find. something really hard in one you're. doing now yeah it's like you have to. know the names of these dinosaurs I've. never heard of in order to complete the.

puzzle oh my God that sounds impossible. I know yeah it really does yikes yeah. what are you working on right now that's. so hard well I you know I'm trying to do. these seduko things oh no I'm having a. lot of trouble with those oh those are. impossible for me oh my God yeah I like. that you really love challenges good. luck with that I don't think I'll be. able to help you okay all right okay so. it kind of looks like that and what what. are the like fundamental differences. like CU is something being deposited in.

that first example that's going to be. Insidious and and to result in the. relationship falling down think of the. word stupid I used it three times put. down criticism. contemptuous how does he respond. counterattacks you're not smart enough. to do these defensiveness these are like. personality attacks straight from the J. exactly exactly and how does that lead. to divorce how does it feel when.

somebody looks down on us is disgusted. by us does think we're stupid do we want. to be close to that person M do we want. to have sex with that person mm do we. trust that person no we do not we pull. away from them it can be much more. subtle as well than you demonstrated. there what like the subtlest ways that. that contentment can show up in a in a. conversation so you wouldn't you know I. I've asked you to do the dishes you.

wouldn't really think of getting your. hands wet to do the dishes would you so. that's I really hate getting my hands. wet okay so that was a little bit of. sarcastic it was sarcastic but getting. your hands wet I mean it's it's. like it's contempt again what would what. advice would you give to me then I'm 31. years old I'm four years into my. relationship you're what 36 years into. your marriage 37 37 years into your. marriage what advice would you give to.

me to make sure that I get 37 years deep. you know you've given me lots of advice. today about how to argue and how to. resolve conflict get this get this. notebook I'm going to get a notebook I'm. to get I'm going to carry around a. notebook and the minute we have an. argument I'm going to start taking notes. yeah that's my solution you know and do. you do you know her dreams this is a. really good question CU I think I know. her dreams but I've never really asked. directly oh which I probably should have. according to Julie's eyes yeah you might.

be surprised by the answer yes sir and. does she know yours and why they're so. important to you beyond just yeah it's. fascinating I'm not even sure I know. mine which is a bit of an issue wonder. how does it relate to you being from. bwana yeah it's it's an interesting. thing because I think some sometimes. we're scared of voicing our dreams. because we think it might result in. figuring out that they're unaligned like. I think if I asked her what her dreams.

were she's she's very ambitious she. wants to start a family think she wants. to live in the the sun somewhere my. dreams are probably more focused on I. want to start a family 2 but I want to I. love doing this podcast there's only a. couple of cities in the world where I. can do it um and there's only one city. in the world where I think I can do this. podcast and it's sunny and that's here. oh and she might not like being here but. for a variety of reasons so it's like. and then you when you have kids you. realize that you can't just fly around.

like I do now I have we have to be. together and present and raise the kids. so I don't know in my head I've just. thought cross that bridge when we come. to it is that a good way to deal with. life. no well it's not a bad way it's not a. bad way you know it it depends on uh. your timing uh but the book we wrote. eight dates uh which gives you. conversations to have that are really. really important as you are establishing.

a long-term relationship or if you're. already in one but you haven't had. conversations like these in a while then. those are great to have and you don't. have to be afraid you know that your. dreams. are very different from one another. because if there's a lot of love of you. know with maybe a couple of exceptions. out there you can figure out a way to. make it work what advice would you give. to me then I want all of the advice that.

you haven't yet given me today okay so. one of them would be just remember that. 85% turning towards figure okay turn. towards her as much as you can you don't. mean physically you mean no yeah I mean. if she makes a little bit for. connection like Hey Stephen um come into. the kitchen I want to show you something. get up and go to the kitchen 85% of the.

time at least try do your best it's not. going to be perfect it's 86% by the way. oh honey see here's my numbers man I can. always count on him to come up with the. okay so you got to work even harder. Stephen okay 86% of the time yeah so. that's a good one another one is when. and you are talking about an. issue work really hard to not blame and. not criticize yep describe.

yourself your own. feelings what situation you're upset. about and what your positive need is not. the negative one anything else John we. have this great card deck called. expressing your needs I don't know if if. you got a copy of that one no no you can. download it on the on the App Store. gotman cardex have it on your phone and. once a week just sit down with her and. go through and say okay here's here's.

two things I need this week why why. should I do that because then it's real. clear you know and she can tell you what. two things you you can do to make her. happy this week and you know rather than. leaving it a chance you know you're a. man that loves maths right yes give me. some of the most interesting. mathematical conclusions you've been. able to arrive at through your work. through the love lab I think the most. amazing one is.

that the only way to be powerful in a. relationship is to accept. influence and it's so. counterintuitive but that turns out to. be really powerful that I I found that. very surprising the only way to be. powerful is basically to be. influenceable be flexible be movable. listen to your partner and try to accept. some influence from what they're.

saying not perfectly of course anything. else say what you need don't expect your. partner to read your mind because they. never. can anything else yep one more this is. one of our favorite. questions ask your partner once a. week what is something can do next week. to make you feel more loved we have this. annual honeymoon that we do uh that.

we've done for 23 years and we go away. and bring our kayak and we ask each. other three questions over two weeks. what sucked about this year what did you. like about this year and what do you. want next year to be like so we have. that once a year time when we can really. take a hard look at our lives and see. what needs to change here's the deal. we're talking to each other all the time.

yeah because we work together and we're. expressing love and affection and. gratitude to one another all the time. and a lot of our work is. fun it would be great if we went out on. more. dates the pandemic kind of interfered. with that quite a. bit um but we loved it but we loved it. and we love going on dates it's just.

we're so darn busy like everybody else. right and we're really old Stephen so. we're getting. tired John what does Julie mean to you. what does she mean to me what a question. W she's. really the most important thing in my. life absolutely the most important thing. waking up in the morning and having her. be next to me is such a joy and cuddling.

with her and our dog is just wonderful. thing every morning and and now we get. to be grandparents together we have this. two-year-old little boy that we're both. in love with and we get to see our. daughter be a mom you know. it's it's the greatest gift that. anybody's ever given me is to become a. father she means everything to me she. wasn't in your life what would you be.

missing. Everything. Everything Julie what does John mean to. you he's the most adorable wonderful. lovable. person I've ever had in my life what he. means to me is that he has healed me. from a lot of my own past. [Music]. trauma he makes me laugh all the time.

and I didn't know how to laugh at all I. never laughed before I met. him he supports my. dreams nobody ever cared about my dreams. knew about my dreams before I met him. including crazy dreams like going to. Antarctica by myself he supported that. isn't that. amazing he is the most supportive.

wonderful man and the other thing is. that he's so damn smart I knew I would. never be bored and he reads a million. times as much as I do I mean I read a. lot but he reads so much that I'm. constantly learning from him. so he's a source of knowledge source of. laughter source of sunshine source of a.

fabulous fabulous fabulous daughter and. son-in-law and grandson and he's got the. most beautiful eyes in the whole wide. world that's what he means to me besides. that I love his hat he always wears the. same hat and he has for like 40 years. because it makes him look like a Jewish. intellectual B bik what could be better. she's talking about my leather hat oh. okay going to. say Fishman at fight right the book is.

come out I think February 1st M January. 30th yeah ah okay why did you write this. book why was it so important there's so. many things that you could have written. about from one of your research but for. some reason you wrote a book called. fight right why did why take a look at. the. world fighting. especially in the United States has. become more polarized than. ever secondly hatred has become.

sanctioned as uh a fine way to express. your own political points of view has. there been any listening to each other. zip none and so you know we can't we're. not politicians we're not going to w the. whole social system but if we can change. how people listen to one another and. love one another at home which is what.

we know the most about then we can hope. and pray for a ripple effect to move out. into. society and create more love out in the. world too where we need it so much. Making Peace one family at a time oh I. love it nice. one we have a closing tradition on this. podcast where the last guest leaves a. question for the next guest not knowing. who they're leaving it for I'm going to. ask you both to answer the question I.

don't get to see it until I open the. book here we. go oh interesting so I'm going to start. this with Julie um if you could go back. and tell your parents any one thing at. the time you were born what would it be. I would tell my.

father would you please stay. home at. least one day a week instead of. abandoning my mother every single day. seven days a week I would tell my. mother stop being critical stop being. contemp. contemptuous try to look for what all of. us are doing.

right and say that rather than only. pointing out what we're doing wrong why. wasn't. he he was a. cardiologist so he was constantly gone. saving lives. basically uh as a cardiologist and when. he wasn't he was playing golf classic. cardiologist and I think my mother may. have drove him a little. crazy cuz she was a very very disturbed.

individual so he. escaped and he was a 50s 1950s father. right which meant all he had to do was. provide that was it no role with the. children and your mother I'm guessing. didn't know how to fight in the way that. you describe it in this book oh my God. no no no no no no no my my mother had.

witnessed horrible violence and rape. within her home she was incested herself. in her own home growing up as a. child she didn't feel like she had any. value other than her beauty and she was. very very beautiful. so she didn't feel entitled to ask for. what she needed and you need to feel at. least some of that in order to fight for.

what you want and what you need and J. same question yeah what would I tell my. parents yeah I I think. that I would tell my. parents first of all how much I love and. appreciate them for who they were and I. don't think I did that.

enough um especially with my dad and I. would also tell my parents to be better. parents toward my. sister cuz we really lived in two. different. families and my sister didn't have an. easy going. temperament and um and she was extremely. talented musically and I wish they had.

supported her music and loved her better. because she really needed it. and I think they could have done a much. better job being parents of her they did. a great job with me what was the cost to. your. sister I think she felt really. unloved still. especially by my. mom and I felt very loved by my. mom I think that's kind of served to.

make sense of why you both do what you. you do in many respects you both have an. origin story which is sort of pertinent. and present in the work that you do and. the perspectives you both take on the. subject matter of love and relationships. comes from two very different places and. um we all have an origin story of love. and relationships and I think think we. often discount how important and. formative that is for us I mean I know. from myself personally my my life is. dominated by by love and relationships.

and My Success my business everything. that I've done in my life is comes back. to the early relationships I had my. perspective on love and the lack of Love. or you know the love that I once needed. so thank you so much to both of you for. really being seen as the you know you. are seen as the Pioneers on this subject. and I said to you before we started. recording that so many of my guests have. come on this show and mentioned your. work they've quoted your work and these. are some of the most successful people. in the world they're scientists they're. neuroscientists Etc but even long before. I got to meet you many years ago I did a. live show across the UK and I was.

quoting stuff that came out of your love. love lab and on stage in front of. thousands and thousands and thousands of. people so thank you for turning the. lights on to a subject that matters so. much to human happiness and health as. we've discovered because it's some of. the most important work that I think. anyone could do in for Humanity and you. guys have been leading the way in doing. it so thank you both so much thank you. stepen for having us on your podcast. thank you so much given that you have. interviewed some of the most successful. brilliant people on the.

planet uh to be honoring love in the way. that you're doing because by doing that. you are really endorsing how important. love is and everybody needs to hear that. so thank you well said honey. indeedy everyone needs to go get your. books I mean there's quite a lot of them. but this particular one here I think. everyone should start with because. conflict resolution knowing how to um. take on conflict knowing how to address. it knowing how to be a better sparring.

partner in relationships so that it can. be you and your partner versus the. problem versus instead of you versus. your partner I think is foundational to. us finding the love that most of us are. searching for but that feels so elusive. so I'd recommend everybody to go get the. book I'm going to link in the. description below thank you so much. we're. done. [Music].

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