The Coffee Expert: The Surprising Link Between Coffee & Your Mental Health! James Hoffmann

You're the former world barista. champion. So, we have cups of coffee. here from different supplies. So, coffee. number one. Yeah, I'd be surprised if. that was expensive. I'd be a little bit outraged if that was. expensive. That's kind of weird. That's really interesting. If you want the best experience for. coffee, this one. I can reveal that is. James Hoffmann. One of the most famous. people in the world when it comes to. coffee. James has close to 2 million subscribers. on YouTube. The most popular piece of coffee. broadcasting on the planet. You've.

committed a huge portion of your life to. coffee. What advice have you got for me? Okay. London has some of the best coffee. shops in the world. Don't get an. espresso machine for home. Coffee pods? They're a microwave meal. How long does. it take to decay? The minute you open that bag, it's on. its way out and it will happen really. quickly. You walk into the Starbucks, what do you order? If I'm being fully. weird. Be fully weird. Fine. Then I'm going to. Say I've got 100 pounds for the. machinery. Coffee grinders are the right. investment. They are more important than. the machine. What's your favorite cup of.

coffee? If I'm honest, it is. Are we addicted? It's the world's most. popular psychoactive drug. But, you look. at the science, coffee seems to be. healthy and have a really positive. impact wherever it's been measured. It's. a great source of fiber. It is like. having another vegetable in your diet. People tend to perform better on. cognitive tests. It looks like coffee. drinkers survive longer. The problem. with it is that coffee has this really. depressing future. Why? Quick one. This is really really. fascinating to me. On the back end of.

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and better and better and better. That. is a promise I'm willing to make you. Do. we have a deal? James. You've committed a huge portion of your. life. to a drink, to a bean, to coffee. Yeah. Why? Uh I love it. It brings me intense. pleasure. Like the whole thing. I think. I fell in love with it 20 years ago. And uh I tried working in wine. People.

get falling in love with wine, right? Like people with the drink, with the. culture, with where it's grown, all that. stuff. The same can be true with coffee and. turned out to be true for me. And I'm. uh kind of obsessed with learning and. coffee is so big. People see it as kind. of niche. What I do is a niche, but it's. this global thing. It's in every. culture. There's everything from botany. to science to like health, all the rest. of it's wrapped in this one thing. So, I. can spend lifetimes learning about it. and never be done. It it it's just huge. fun. And it's one of those things that's.

capable of incredible surprise. People's. expectations of coffee are very low. often. And and. when you kind of show them what it can. be, that's a very satisfying moment that. never gets tiring. Cuz I just thought of. coffee as a drink that everyone seems to. be pretty. addicted to. But, I imagine your perspective on on. that is a little bit more artistic and. expansive. I mean, yes and no. Coffee's. existence kind of blows my mind. It's a. thing that we all do that for over 100. years now it's been normal to have the.

ground-up seeds of a tropical fruit. plant to sit in your cupboard and you. can steep that in water and drink it. That's a weird human thing that we do. And it's just been a part of everyone's. lives for as long as they can remember. Coffee's just there. But, it turns out it in sort of the last. 20 years we've had this boom of. specialty coffee where we've kind of. showcased how interesting it can be. You. know, it's not just this commoditized. thing. And I think that bit has sort of. changed consumption around the world. now, actually. I see it in every. country. You know, people's opinions and. expectations of coffee have shifted.

massively. When I first started drinking. coffee, which I think I was quite late. to coffee, and I think I'm quite a. a low-level consumer of coffee. Part of the reason I was put off. drinking coffee was because it appears. that the entirety of society are. addicted to it. And it might have this. sort of first principle belief that. anything that has a significant upside. must come with a significant downside. Sure. And and no one can tell me what. the downside was. So, I was just very. reluctant to engage in an addiction when. I can see the upside. I can see people.

are more focused. They seem to be higher. in energy. That's the appearance I have. But, the downside was never clear. We are addicted, aren't we? Do you know I don't like that word? No, no. It is you know, it's um yeah, we. it's the world's most popular. psychoactive drug. It is the most widely. consumed psychoactive drug. Yes, I would. say it's absolutely bound itself into. society now. It Are we addicted? Yeah. I mean, addiction's complicated. I'm not I'm not an expert on addiction. I would say there's a level of. dependency. If you stop drinking caffeine, you will.

suffer for 24 to 48 hours. It might be a. kind of big old headache. It might be. something else. So, you know, you will. uh have symptoms if you stop consuming. it. But, you can stop consuming coffee. and then go for years without an urge to. consume it again. So, I wouldn't say. addiction's quite the right word for it. But, yeah, we are I would say deeply. dependent on it. Have you ever stopped. drinking it for a prolonged period of. time? Not for a prolonged period of. time. It's pretty hard for me not to. sort of consume caffeine during what I.

do. Like there's just a need to taste, a. need to you know, drink the stuff. I've. stopped over periods I've gotten sick. I've gone a week or two without it. But, I've changed my attitude to caffeine. generally. I'm I'm much more careful. around it because I think it is. worthy of concern, the amount of. caffeine you consume. Like I'm very pro. coffee. I want people to drink and enjoy. coffee. But, at the same time, I I am. very nervous to encourage caffeine. consumption that might be excessive cuz. that's definitely not good for you. Why? Sleep. Like ultimately, anything in this.

world that interrupts your sleep. perhaps with the exception of children, is probably to be avoided, right? Like. sleep quality for every outcome, be it. you know, body composition, longevity, all the rest of it. Like cognition. Uh. sleep's so important. And I feel like we. we didn't culturally prioritize the. sleep the way we are beginning to now. You know, I think more and more people. are talking about the importance of. sleep. And it's really easy to get into. a cycle with caffeine of. drinking too much coffee in the day, you. have poor quality sleep. You're tired.

the next day. I'll fix that with more. caffeine, which will give you lower. quality sleep at night. And that cycle. can go on and on and on. I think that's. very. that's a bad thing. Basically, I would say that's to be. avoided. So, I'm pro cutting off. caffeine early if you suffer with it in. any way. And there's enough ways to. track your sleep these days. I feel like. everything's tracking our sleep. So, you. can tell if you've had a bad night's. sleep and if you drank a coffee late, maybe don't do that anymore because you. know, caffeine has about a 5-hour. half-life.

So, you know, even 10 hours after you. drank a cup of coffee, there's still a. decent amount floating around in your. system. Enough that might you know, delay onset of sleep or reduce the. quality of your sleep. Isn't it bonkers. that people offer you an espresso after. dinner in restaurants? I don't I don't get it. For some people. they find it very calming and they. really enjoy it. They love it. They have. no issues sleeping. I cannot touch. caffeine after like 3:00 p.m. I have. like a hard cut-off and I'm done. But, yeah, I find the you know, there's. the idea that it's a. digestive aid. I'm not sure that's super.

well evidenced. to be honest having looked into it. anyway. But, if people enjoy it, I'm not. going to get in the way of it. But, for. and some people sleep like a baby. afterwards. I'm always amazed by those. people that are like, yeah, I have. coffee I got to sleep. I'm like, how? How? And there's big genetic differences. and I think we we're starting to see. those and and you can get genetic tests. done that will give you an idea of your. uh caffeine metabolizer kind of rate. Are you slow? Are you fast? But, um yeah, it's it's. it's one of those weird things where.

because how coffee's made can impact the. quantity of caffeine in the end cup, you. can't accurately predict how much. caffeine's in a uh coffee from a coffee. shop. Right? There's a bunch of. variables that can happen that will. produce a pretty big variance. So, this. incredibly popular drug, we don't know. how much we're taking most of the time, which I think is kind of wild. Uh and. maybe not a good thing. And so, I'm I'm. kind of pro mindful consumption of this. stuff if that makes sense. Like just be. aware of it and thoughtful about it. And.

still enjoy it. I want people to drink. and enjoy coffee. But, I I want as much upside as. possible, as little downside. You used the word drug there. With drugs. you get a sort of tolerance Mhm. that requires you to have more and more. of the thing to get to the same levels. of. I don't know, psychoactiveness. Is that the same with coffee where if I. have one coffee today, in a couple of. months' time I'm going to need two to. get to the same level of like alertness? Yes and no. Okay. Uh it seems to be that.

the benefits that we see of caffeine. when it comes to cognition. uh disappear with habitual usage. And. actually adding more doesn't change it. That first coffee that feels so good is. taking us sort of instead of going from. zero to one, it's taking us from minus. one to zero. It's removing the kind of. withdrawal symptom almost and bringing. us back to a kind of level of like, okay, I'm here now. And so, if you. really really want maximum benefit from. caffeine, be it cognition or sports or. anything else, then actually having a. period without coffee beforehand will.

give you the sort of greatest benefit. afterwards. So, there's a habituation, I. guess. Mhm. But, it doesn't escalate the way. the drugs do. Like you you don't need to. suddenly be drinking six, eight, 10 cups. of coffee to have an effect. You'll just. feel weird. Uh So, yeah, a little bit. though. Again, going back to my first. principles. One of my first principles. in life generally, and this is why I. often avoid medicine, paracetamol, you. name it. I will I'd rather take the. headache than than start dabbling. because I always think there's a cost to. something. When I think about the way we.

live our lives in society, we literally. many people will have three or four cups. of coffee a day. Some people even more. Some people will just drink coffee all. the way through the day, throughout. work, and then have one on their way. home from work as well. And I look at. that objectively and go, that's. insanity. That this is sort of the. entire Western population is just like. caffeinating themselves just to. function. And then you hear phrases like. I like um. oh, I can't function I can't function. I've not had my coffee yet. Mhm. And I just go oh, this is you know.

But I don't know enough about coffee to. understand if that's just, you know, maybe there is a free lunch as it. relates to coffee or maybe sleep is the. only. I think it's sleep's the primary. concern. You know, if you and if you're. not suffering any issues with sleep from. your coffee consumption, then you know, if you look at the science, I'm not a. scientist. I really I like to read the. research papers, but I'm not doing the. research. But. on almost every front, coffee seems to. be healthy and have a really positive. impact wherever it's been measured and.

across a whole range of different stuff. So, you know, as to why caffeine's one. part of it, I think the fact that coffee. contains a surprising amount of fiber is. another one or the quantity of. polyphenols in there if you're. interested in the gut microbiome. Like. coffee seems to be really good for that. and I think we know more and more the. microbiome you know, Tim Spector has. taught us all the importance of that. that it impacts us in so many different. ways. So. on almost any front, if you've. researched is coffee good for.

you know, longevity? Yes, you see a. reduction in all cause mortality that. correlates to coffee consumption. Is it. good for cognitive decline? Yes, you. tend to see coffee consumption. associated with. less cognitive decline in old age or. liver function, cancer. All of these things seem to have a. positive association with coffee. drinking. But. if it's messing with your sleep, I don't. think it's worth it. That's just me. That's the the line for me of like it's. not such an incredible benefit that that.

it is worth the loss of sleep quality. Mhm. Yeah, sleep has become just the most. sort of the biggest obsession in my life. over the last year. I think for all of. us. I think it's it's just if you pay. attention to the stuff, you can't help. but begin to obsess over it. I hope. healthily. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, to avoid the. impact of coffee impacting on sleep, you. think the best thing to do is cuz I've. just not been drinking coffee after like. 1:00 p.m. It's great. Okay. that's a pretty good way to go. I think. decaf is still a good option. I think. people are kind of really negative about.

decaf because we have this caffeine. first association with coffee. A lot of. people are like, why would I drink. decaf? What's the point? You know, you. see a lot of death before decaf or. whatever. But I I think decaf can be. really tasty, which is good. Like it's a. nice delicious hot drink. And also, yeah, there's a little bit less of the. downside if you are concerned about. caffeine. I'm so I'm so composed You and. Tim Spector are the two people that have. made the case I mean I think the first. time I spoke to Tim Spector about. coffee, he was a little bit on the fence. as. as to whether it was healthy or not. He. came back a second time and I think. there's been.

a. just a little bit of a shift in him. He's now pro-coffee. Mhm. In terms of. the gut microbiome, which I thought was. super interesting. He says it counts as. one of my 30. Yeah. a week that I need to get, which it was. really surprising. So, it helped my gut. microbiome. He talked about the longevity impacts as. well, which I thought was staggering. that it can the study seemed to show. that it will extend your life. Yeah, it's a reduction in all cause mortality. So, you're just less likely to die. early, I suppose, is the easiest way to. think about it. Or that's what we see. from the studies. And it's not that the.

studies aren't without flaws, but. there's been a lot now and you tend to. see people dying less often or less. early. when they drink more coffee. Not a huge. amount of coffee. And this is a if you. ever go into the research, this is. really important. A a cup of coffee to you or me might. look like this. A cup of coffee to a researcher is 120. mils of coffee. Which is about half of this. So, you'll see loads of studies say. three cups of coffee, three cups of. coffee is where you see these benefits. That's not a liter of coffee. That's.

more like 3 to 400 mils total a day of. say filter coffee or one or two or three. espressos, single espressos. So, the the. definition of a a cup from all these. studies is really confusing and. problematic. And I think encourages excess coffee. consumption. Uh but yeah. three cups of coffee for heart disease, for. all sorts of things is is is seen to be. associated with. improvement in outcome. Why might that. be?

What is it about the bean, the coffee. bean, that is causing. health benefits? That's probably above. my pay grade. I would I would probably. at this point, I'm probably aligned with. Tim in that it's a great source of fiber. and polyphenols. That it's just it is. like having another vegetable into the. diet. It's more diversity of diet. Uh I think one study showed that for. some people in the US. like cups of filter coffee were their. primary source of dietary fiber. Now, that's kind of wild and not really. how things should be, but it is a. significant source of fiber. If you.

think about it that way, you know, a. large cup might be 3 g of fiber, which. doesn't seem like much until you start. tracking your fiber intake and you. realize oh, that's a that's a a decent. contribution for a drink. Um so, yeah, I. I I think that's the biggest. part of it. I don't think caffeine. has been shown to be neuroprotective. necessarily. So, I think people are. trying to understand the mechanism more. Caffeine's been studied separately and. and is much easier to study because you. can dose it, you can look at the effect. of that. You to really do a study on coffee.

consumption. is really hard. You can't really do a. randomized control trial where you raise. people from say 15 to 60 years old, you. control their diet, exercise, sleep, and. you just randomize the coffee. consumption cuz then you might see. something where you could really say. coffee is good or bad. We can just look. at these large epidemiological studies. and say, well. trying to control for diet and exercise. and cigarettes and all these other. things, it looks like coffee drinkers. survive longer or have less issues. And. it might just be that healthy people are. just attracted to coffee. We don't.

really know which which way around that. is. There's no strong mechanism, but at this. point, I'd probably be aligned with with. Tim on this one that I think it's. primarily going to be the gut. The fiber point is super interesting cuz. he said to me that we're like as a. society extremely fiber deficient. Yes. I think the number he said that we. needed was about 20 is it grams of fiber. a day? I think so, yeah. So, if coffee's giving us three or four. of those grams, that's almost sort of. 25% of our. um requirement, which is pretty. staggering. And I never really thought of coffee as. a source of fiber. Neither did I until.

he told me. I just didn't cross my mind. that this, you know, it's it's a drink. How you know, it's not like a thick I. lived the life of like fiber is is. miserable cardboardy brown cereal. That's fiber in my brain. And the idea. that this was fiber was. inconceivable to me. But you know, then. I read the studies and. uh it was fascinating. What about mental. health? I've always wondered, you know, even things like depression, anxiety. I've always assumed a little bit that. coffee because of the caffeine is going.

to be bad for anxiety. I would certainly. say. not a doctor, but I would certainly say. that if you someone suffers with anxiety. cutting out caffeine would be something. to test and to see if there's benefits. to cutting caffeine out. The there are a. bunch of studies done on it. They're not. uniform in their outcome. Some found. different results for caffeine. consumption and I think because you're. trying to study what is ultimately quite. a generic term that covers a lot of. different experiences and uh challenges. that people face. So. yeah, I I wouldn't say. consume it regardless, don't think about.

it. I think if you struggle with. anxiety, it would be certainly be worth. considering. cutting it out. What about depression? I think the same sort of thing is true. there. I I think there have been studies. that correlate caffeine consumption to. depression. And I think there are people who have. used it and have found benefit from it. Again, it's one of those ones where. I just wouldn't blindly consume caffeine. assuming a benefit to mental health. If. I have mental health challenges, I think. it's it's a place to check and it's. pretty easy to check. Cut it out for a. month. It'll suck for a few days.

But you know, you may see benefits or. you may not. But. Another sort of complicated tenuous link. has been made towards cancer with. coffee. Mhm. Most of the meta studies. now seem to come down on for almost. every cancer, there's a lower incidence. associated with coffee consumption. This that again, that's not universal. Some studies have found differently. Again, they're just really hard studies. to do effectively, I think. I think. that's the challenge of it. I have certainly not seen anything that. makes me uh concerned about drinking.

coffee. from that perspective anyway. I think. there's a you know, whatever impact it. may have, I think would be pretty minor. compared to something like a. cigarettes. And I you know, I remember I. think you said. on the internet sometime ago, uh you think in in 10 or 20 years' time, people will see coffee consumption the. way they see cigarette consumption. Yeah, I did. I remember saying that 2. years ago. Yeah. And I And I think to. some extent, there's something in that. I I think we are getting more thoughtful. about caffeine consumption and I think.

caffeine is going to be the root of it. all rather than coffee as a whole. Yeah, that's what I should have said. I. should have said caffeine. And I And I. think there is change and I think, you. know, we're definitely seeing that. I. don't think I think there's enough. health benefits in the coffee itself. Mhm. that we would benefit from keeping. it around. You know, I don't think. there's any health benefits associated. with cigarette smoking. But I I think. coffee will have some benefits, but I. think our attitude and our relationship. with caffeine is going to change. I. think you're right about that. Yeah, that's really what I was getting at. I. almost didn't this is it couldn't.

pull apart coffee from caffeine because. I'm a muggle on this subject matter. But. what I really mean is that addiction to. this drug of caffeine and how it's like. running everyone's life and we need. three cups or four cups a day just to be. normal and to show up to work and think. straight. I go, Jesus Christ, like. as is always the case with these sort of. health revolutions, we kind of go to one. extreme, then we go to the other. There's the counter movement. They'll be. like the big decaf movement. There's. now, because of neurodiversity and. anxiety concerns, there's this.

jitter-free, crash-free. caffeine movement emerging and things. like matcha and. etc. So, hmm. Is decaf is Are you seeing. a rise in people choosing decaf and. The great frustration of decaf. is that decaf drinkers are typically. very poorly served by the coffee. industry. Okay. For a bunch of reasons, coffee shop owners tend not to invest in. decaf. Uh. a lot of coffee roasting companies don't. really care about decaf, despite the. fact that decaf drinkers are the ones. who are drinking it just for the taste.

They are the purest coffee consumer, actually, cuz they just want the flavor. They don't even want the caffeine, just. the flavor. Madness. So, you know, it it. it's always been an important thing for. me over the years uh that decaf be good, but yeah, I'd love to see more decaf. consumption going on. I I think decaf. can be really delicious and good if it's. done properly all the way through from. sort of farm to cup. But, it it's not as available as it. should be to most people, which kind of. hurts me. What about um Alzheimer's? Randomly. something I've got increasingly more. interested in over the last couple of.

years. I think from doing this podcast. and speaking to health experts, but it. has almost felt like this mystery. disease that strikes some people for. a reason that we haven't yet quite yet. figured out. Perfectly healthy people. can suddenly get the news that they have. Alzheimer's. Is there a relationship. from the studies that you've seen. between Alzheimer's um and coffee? Yes. And I'm going to sound like a. broken record, where you see once again. up to about three cups of coffee a day. saw an association with reduced. cognitive decline and reduced incidence. of Alzheimer's. So, it it it's uh again,

I I I'm not saying that coffee is. causing this. I'm saying in the studies, the people who drank coffee. had better outcomes. But, you can't just say because they. drank coffee. There's a really important. disconnect in these kind of things that. doesn't happen often enough. I had um Dr. Daniel Amen on the podcast. And one of his He's like a. neuroscientist that scans I think he's. scanned a quarter of a million brains. now. He is one of the. only people that has really expressed a.

concern about the impact that coffee has. on the brain, because he says it reduces. the amount of blood flow to the brain. Mhm. And that is in that negative thing. Have you ever heard about. that that point of view before? I haven't heard much about that. Most of. the studies I've read that looked at. cognition see that kind of lift that. caffeine will give you. Um in that, you know, people tend to. perform better on cognitive tests after. caffeine than or with caffeine than. without. Um I'm surprised in that I I had thought. caffeine was a vasodilator, which would, in theory, allow more blood flow around,

but maybe it's not. You know, I haven't. scanned a quarter million brains, uh so. I'm not an expert on this one, but. that's the first time I've heard someone. talk about blood flow to the brain and. coffee specifically. You know what I. used to believe that coffee was. basically giving me energy. Mhm. And. then it was actually Dr. Daniel Amen, Dr. Daniel Amen that helped me. understand what's actually going on. Right. He says it's just like blocking. something. Yes. It's it's it's stopping a compound. called adenosine working in your blood. And adenosine calms you down, lowers.

your heart rate, makes you feel tired. and sleepy. And caffeine just gets in. the way of that receptor and stops it. working. So, a lot of people experience. a kind of accumulation of adenosine. And so, while they're consuming coffee, their body's trying to put out. adenosine, lower the heart rate, calm. them down, it's not working. And. eventually, your body clears the. caffeine and you have a kind of crash. afterwards, where you suddenly just feel. extremely tired, because finally, your. receptors are clear to receive the. amount of adenosine that's in your. blood. So, yeah, there's there's a kind. of downside that way. Again, big doses tend to come with.

bigger crashes. You know, I think a lot. of people now are pushing the idea that. you should delay caffeine consumption a. little bit later in the day. Uh. I think Huberman is big on like no. coffee for the first 90-120 minutes. after waking to help sort of mitigate. this effect and sort of clear out. everything in your bloodstream before. you start inhibiting. adenosine. uh reception. Is that why people get. like. crashes and stuff like that? Cuz a lot. of drinks that are coming to market now. that are like caffeine-based products. are promising you that you won't get. crashes and jitters. So, I was wondering.

if the Right. You see a lot of people. pushing L-theanine in there as a. product, which seems to have a. synergistic effect and and help people. feel a little calmer while sort of. maintaining the benefits from that. I. think the evidence is reasonable on. that, but um. again, those products tend to be a bit. more sort of thoughtful about the amount. of caffeine in them. And and I think the. amount of caffeine is really kind of. key. You you know, um. you might have something with say 100 mg. of caffeine. That's a That's a pretty. acceptable dose. You might find that in. a single espresso or in say a small cup. of filter coffee. If you take a.

pre-workout, that's often 300 mg of. caffeine. And so, there's all these ways. that we can consume caffeine quite. easily. Coca-Cola's pretty low. I think. like 50-60 mg of caffeine in a can or a. bottle of Coca-Cola. But, you can easily end up drinking. 200-250 mg in coffee as well if it's a. lower quality coffee. It tends to have. more caffeine in it. If it's brewed as a. sort of very strong filter coffee. It's just knowing how much you're taking. that I think is kind of key. And why why does that matter? Is that. again about sleep or is it just because.

if you take huge doses, then there'll be. significant consequences like crashes. and stuff like that? Yeah, I I think. it's the the more you dose, the longer. it's going to take to clear from your. system, the more that will be in your. blood come time to go to sleep. You. know, I think the the lethal dose of of. caffeine is really pretty high. A few. people have got there, sadly, but it's. it's it's a huge amount of coffee. It's. usually done with like pills or other. sort of forms of caffeine consumption. To do it with just cups of coffee is. like. I think 50 or 60 cups of coffee in a. very short time frame. A very strong. coffee would be about what what was.

necessary for a small person to hit a. sort of caffeine toxicity. So, it's. quite hard to do. And you you die of a. cardiovascular issue or I think it's. more unpleasant than that. Um as I. recall. Yeah, I think it's a sort of. neurological thing as well. It's not I. don't think it's a good death, if I'm. honest. Um not that you know, maybe. there are good ones, but yeah, I don't. think it's a good way to go. Coffee was originally a snack. Kind of. Kind of. Yeah, the coffee fruit. was. So, uh it's kind of Most people don't think. of coffee as fruit. And coffee fruit.

grows on these trees. They're usually. about 2 m tall, full of these sort of. ripe, red, cherry-looking things. We. call them coffee cherries. They're about. the size of a grape, but inside there's. these two seeds kind of like a peanut. facing each other. And they take up most. of the fruit. Uh so, if you eat them, they're not very satisfying. They're. mostly seed, bit of skin, and a little. bit of kind of fruit flesh for want of a. better term on the inside. But, it is. delicious. It's kind of like a tangy. watermelon taste. Coffee fruit's very. delicious. I recommend if you can try. it, definitely try it. Um caffeine exists in coffee primarily.

as an insect repellent. That's why the plant produces it, so. that if an insect attacks the fruit, it. gets a whack of caffeine and it's like, "Nope." And it leaves the fruit alone. So, that's its function in nature. Other. plants produce caffeine. There's some. interesting stuff about how uh caffeine. improves the memory of bees, which helps. with pollination. Uh that's kind of So, some of flowers produce caffeine uh and. they think for that reason. But, the the. caffeine in fruit in coffee tree. specifically is basically insect. repellent, which is why the higher you. grow coffee, the less insects there are.

Actually, the lower the levels of. caffeine you tend to see the plant. produce. You became a. competitive coffee I don't know what you. call it. Do you call it a player? Barista? Barista. You became a. competitive coffee barista when you were. what, 25 years old? Yeah, about that. Yeah. And then by 27, you're named the. world barista champion. Yes. I I I think I went hard. Uh you know, it couple things. Yeah, what I really. fell in love with it. You know what I. mean? Like like I got into coffee at. like 23. I didn't like coffee, didn't. drink coffee.

And then I read a book uh called The. Devil's Cup that just. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's a fun book. It's it's I don't know how well it's. aged, but it's just travel writing. So, he traces the route that coffee took. from Ethiopia to Yemen through kind of. Turkey into the Mediterranean, how it. spread around the world. And what got me. about that book was like coffee's in. every culture and it's different. Italian espresso culture is totally. different to Scandinavian coffee. culture, totally different to Australian. coffee culture or, you know, what coffee. culture is in the US. I was like, "Well, this drink's kind of interesting." Like. it's a part of every society now.

And then I started to drink it. I fell. in love with it. And I just went deeper. and deeper and deeper. And um yeah, in. 2007, I won the world barista. championships. So, if you're the former. world barista champion Yeah. and I am a muggle. which I am on coffee. many things. What do I need to know What. are the like the biggest myths and. misconceptions about the drink of coffee. that someone like me should be aware of? I'm trying to have better coffee. I'm. not, you know, I'm not I'm never going.

to be like a coffee. snob, but I'm I want to make I want. nicer coffees that are good for me, that. are healthy. um and that taste great. What do I need to know? What are the. misconceptions? There's there's probably. less misconceptions now than ever, I. would say. Like the the I think more. people are coming around to the idea. that coffee is not just a bitter, painful experience that you go through. to get to the caffeine on the other. side. Like it's a little trial each. morning that we come to enjoy. I think.

people now understand more and more that. there is an astonishing sort of range of. flavor in coffee. 20 years ago, there wasn't. 40 years. ago, there was no diversity of flavor in. coffee. Coffee was brown and mean and. miserable, and that was it. And now, you. can have coffees that taste kind of. fruity and floral. You can have coffees. that taste earthy and rich or chocolatey. or whatever else. Like so, I I think the thing that I want to kind. of get out into the world is whatever. you enjoy, I'm pretty sure there's. something you could enjoy more, cuz. there's so much out there. There's so.

much diversity. That's the first thing. I think that the second thing. that I think people do understand is. that. you know, coffee's kind of made three. times in a weird sort of way. Coffee's. made at the farm level. And we would. understand that with wine. Like a grower. grows the the they make the wine at that. point. And the producer of raw coffee. carefully grows fruit, harvests the. seeds, processes them carefully, and you. can do a good job there or a bad job. And you've kind of got a peak quality. moment there. Coffee is made again when. you roast it. It's transformed. completely from a kind of green.

plant-smelling thing into one of the. most aromatic things in the world. And. then it's made again when you make it. And at each of these stages, you can. lose the quality completely. You can do. a terrible job roasting it, make it. taste awful. And you can do a terrible. job brewing it and make it taste awful. And I think for a lot of people, coffee. making was not particularly a skill. Coffee making was not complex or hard, and it shouldn't be complex, but it it's. easy to get wrong. And I think you can. be disappointed by a coffee that you've. made without really understanding why.

And a lot of what I'm interested in is. like, okay, you don't need to understand. everything about this process. You need. to work out what are the most important. things to understand and get those. right, and then you're most of the way. there. I don't think the the kind of average. consumer is necessarily uninformed or. confused, but potentially overwhelmed by. choice still. Well, I I see a variance. in the price, so I assume there must be. a variance in what I'm putting in my. mouth or and I'm I'm not sure what's. marketing and what's, you know, quality.

Yeah. Um I've brought five different. cups of coffee Yes. from five local. shops, outlets, etc. And I'm going to. I don't know which ones are which. So my. team got me these five cups of coffee. Jack is just bringing them in now. So, we have five different cups of coffee. here from five different suppliers. You're smelling them all. When you're. smelling them, is there. anything you're noticing just from. smelling them? Yeah, like um. So, the one of the things I can assess. pretty quickly is how darkly the.

coffee's been roasted. Yeah, when you. have uh the longer you leave coffee in a. roasting machine, the darker the color. of the beans will be. And for a long. time, I think people associated darker. roast with with better coffee. Oilier. beans looked kind of fancier. Whereas. it's swung the other way, and lighter. roasts now are considered. better or more expensive cuz they kind. of preserve more of the inherent. qualities of the raw materials. Um so, these are all reasonably dark. roasts just from smell. So, I can kind. of the the smells I'm coming off there. are more in the. kind of heavier not burnt smells. Well, some of them actually smell a little bit.

burnt and kind of uh harsh. But uh nothing's particularly fruity or. floral smelling. So, it's just for me a. a kind of gauge of where things are. going to be. So, there's going to be an. expectation with that of bitterness. In in perfume shops, they give us. sometimes coffee beans to smell to kind. of try and wash out our. Yeah, yeah. nasal senses, I guess. Does that work? Yeah, it totally does. We we we are. It's why dogs sniff really fast. They. You're looking for change. Your sense of. smell works quite well on change. Uh and so, yes, you will get what's. called suppression if you smell the same.

kind of smells over and over, they. become less and less intense. It's why. people end up wearing too much of the. same perfume they've worn for 20 years. cuz they can't literally can't smell it. anymore. We can, they can't. And it's. also evidenced when you go for a run and. then cuz you can smell yourself, you. have to ask your friend if you smell. Yeah, yeah, yeah. "Dave, do I stink?". Do I stink? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cuz your. brain your nose, I guess, is habituated. to the There's a good hack if you ever. want to break apart how it like. something like Coca-Cola smells. If you. take a component smell of Coca-Cola like.

lime, right? Cuz Coke just tastes of. Coke to people, but it's actually lime, neroli, cinnamon, orange, nutmeg. And if. you smell a bunch of cinnamon and then. smell Coke, it smells weird cuz you've. deleted cinnamon from Coca-Cola's like. aroma profile. And you can do that with. say lime smell, and it's like, "Whoa, I've thrown the balance out by kind of. deleting that and suppressing that.". It's a dull but fun kind of trick. The. interesting thing with talking about. Coca-Cola there is I remember those Coke. and Pepsi studies from back in the day. where. people would rate Pepsi as tasting. better unless they had it in a Coke can.

So, when they could see the brand of the. Coca-Cola, they rated it better, but. when they could see it in a plastic cup, they rated Pepsi better. And I wonder. here as well because you you don't know. what these coffees are. You don't know. what brands they are. And neither do I. Yeah. Um. what the results are going to be. So, coffee number one, Yes. have a taste and a smell. So, that's a.

to me a pretty standard kind of. commercial coffee taste. There's not uh a lot going on there. Relatively high in bitterness to me. I'd. say that's a fairly bitter cup of. coffee. Um and that's coming, I would say, mostly from roast. And it's not. something's good or bad. It can be bad. because it wasn't made that well that. day. It could be bad because it was not. great raw materials. And finding why is. sometimes tricky. I wouldn't say it's. particularly expensive cup of coffee. No, it didn't taste. petrol station coffee. You can say that. I like that. I like you can say it. Yeah, I'm going. to just lead you into saying terrible.

things, and I'll say nothing. Yeah, yeah. It It tasted like it came. out of like a vending machine or. something to me. Yeah, I'd be surprised. if that was expensive. I'd be a little. bit outraged if that was expensive. What. would you rate that one out of five? Let's do 10. Um for me and what coffee can be, I'd. say that's like a two. I would say that. was a. five out of 10. Yeah, I think that's I think it's kind. of fair. I probably should be fair and. call it a four out of 10 cuz I've tasted. way worse than that. Let's go for number. two.

Now, this one will be a little bit more. divisive for a lot of people cuz it's. got a little bit more acidity in it. It's like a little bit of It would be my. describe it sourness almost. Like it's a. little zingy tasting. Generally, acidity is is associated with. quality in coffee, which is a real. sticking point for a lot of people. It's down to the fact that. when you grow coffee, the higher you. grow it, the slower it grows, the the. sweeter it will ultimately be, but you. do get more acidity in higher grown. coffees. And some people don't want that in their. coffee. They really don't want sour.

coffee. So, that tastes like it's got. better raw materials in there for me. than this one. Roasted a little bit. lighter, brewed a little bit better. I'd. like it to be a less kind of sour thing. It's a little bit old, obviously. It's. sat around for a while. But I would say. it's a for me, it's a better cup than. this one. Like it's got a little It's got a little. characteristic to it. Like it tastes of. something that's a little bit fruity in. there. Yeah, it's got a bit more of a. personality, hasn't it? The aftertaste. is a little bit something going on. there. Mhm. And what do you rate that. out of out of 10 in your preference?

There's things I'd like to change about. it. So, like six, seven, somewhere. there. Like. um but the it has, I think, better raw. materials in it that that does appeal to. me. Okay, I'm going to say six as well. Okay. I can reveal Mhm. that number one. Yes. was McDonald's coffee. That's not surprising. That's That's. kind of what I would have expected. McDonald's to taste like. And it was. that cup of coffee cost us £1.30.

So, probably the cheapest thing here. Feel like McDonald's are aiming at the. kind of cheaper end. Okay, your. assessment now is probably fair. You did. originally give it a two out of 10. I. I feel not bad about that, but it's. fine. There you go. So, um number two, you talked about there being sort of a. bitterness to it and an. like a. Little bit more acidity in this. Taste like the raw materials are. of a higher quality, certainly than. number one. That is an independent local coffee.

shop. Yeah. And that cup of coffee is double the. price of the McDonald's one at about £3. per cup. Let's move on to number three. Okay. Very different taste. For me, it's more akin to number one. than anything else. Like it's again, it's a darker roast. It's got a bit more. body to it. Feels a bit fuller, a bit. little bit richer, bit earthy, but at. the same time for me. Um.

It's fuller, isn't it? It is a little. bit fuller, and The first one was quite. watery to me. Yeah, and that's in part going to be how. it's made, in part how it's roasted, in. part, you know, where it's from. Um. price-wise, I wouldn't expect it to be. much more than the McDonald's, if I'm. honest. That that tastes again like a um. Yeah, like a a reasonably commercial. grade coffee. I wouldn't say it tastes. bad. Roasted a little dark. Yeah, it's another kind of. um.

Yeah, three, four, three, actually. There's something about the There's a. sort of earthiness that I don't enjoy in. coffee. Some people really like earthy. flavors. I really don't, and that's just. a preference thing. So, that is Costa Coffee. Interesting, yeah. Number four. You're doing a swirling, I can see. You. can do doing a real I try I like to. slurp usually. You do a lot of aeration, but down a microphone, it's brutal. Um. Okay. So, that's um. probably the darkest roast of all of. them.

I would say it doesn't taste like the. raw materials are particularly bad, and. so I could have a guess at who that's. from. Um but it is definitely a darker roast. So, more bitterness. Again, quite full. Um. So, you know, my gut says that's sort of. Starbucks style thing to me. Try the last one as well then before we. reveal. Before I get in trouble. That's kind of weird. Um. It's a little bit vegetably to me, if. I'm honest. Um.

It's not It's not my favorite. Again, it's it's within the world of coffee. roasting, it's darker. It's not as dark. as this one. Yeah, I like it probably less than this. one here, so I'd probably be back to. like a four again. So, number four, which was the one you. gave five out of 10, is Pret. Is it? Yeah. Wow. And number. three, sorry, number five, Yes. is Starbucks. Is it? Yeah. There you go. So, of the high street chains then, the. coffee that you rated highest in our.

taste test, Yeah. was Pret. Yeah. Second was Costa, and then third was Starbucks. But I. would say from my point of view, the. variance between them surprisingly. small. Yeah. They're not I don't think. they taste particularly different to. each other in a in a big way. I think. the independent stood out a long way. From the others, right? It was clearly. different. It has a lot more flavor and. character going on, which is good, which. is what you know, I I like about coffee.

But um. you know, I think the the chains. the brand experience may be different, but at the root there's not a huge. variance in the coffee experience. really I wouldn't really I mean that. there are I can taste differences, but. but it's not as a profound difference as. the McDonald's taste and then the. independent taste, which was really full. of personality. Yep. And interestingly, the. price variance is the independent cost. £3, Costa is £3.20, Pret £3.20, and. Starbucks is £3.60.

Really? Yeah. It always blew my mind for. years and years. I'd work with loads of. like essentially startup coffee shop. owners. And their mindset would be, "Oh, I need to be like the same kind of price. as Starbucks or maybe a little bit. more." And you're like, "What are you. possibly thinking? That you have the. same kind of supply chain that they do? That you're going to make You know, they. make great margins. You You're not. buying 20 million paper cups a week.". Mhm. You know what I mean? Like nothing. makes sense, but people feel very tied. to this idea that. you know the price is set by the chains.

And I think that's changed now and and. people are more comfortable charging. above that. But for a long time, people. were terrified to charge more than the. chains even if the product was. noticeably better. And you know a real frustration for me. And and that's why I'm always going to. bat for independents because it's not. like you can spend more, you can get a. better product by someone who cares. deeply about it. And and and I think. it's There's a risk in going to an. independent if you're traveling and you. know, Starbucks the model is built on I. know where to queue, who to talk to, where to stand after I place an order.

What kind of food I can get there? It's. very safe. If I dropped you in Moscow. and told you to get coffee, you'd go to. a chain cuz you know how it works and. you get it done. Independents feel like. a risk, but the reward I think is often. there for sure. And there's more. independents and they're better than. ever now. So. you know, I'm I'm very pro independent. coffee shops. I want to talk to you about one of our. sponsors, LinkedIn Jobs, super quick. Because without LinkedIn Jobs, The Diary. of a CEO team simply wouldn't exist how. it is now. I've probably hired about 90%. of our current team through LinkedIn.

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trial for a month by searching. shopify.com/bartlett. All lowercase. Keep it yourself and let me know how you. get on. You You have a quite a lot of. businesses. I read somewhere that you'd started I. think 11 or 12 different companies. Getting on for that I think at this. point now. What are What are those. businesses? Um. It's a good question. My first business. I started back in 2008 just after I won. the World Barista Championships,

which is a coffee roasting company. And that still is I suppose my primary. business today even if I don't run that. anymore. And there's an. amazing MD in there. I just sort of. try not to start fires and be useful. where I can do. Over the years, we've started other. things, distribution companies kind of. importing stuff or we have a coffee. shop. We've done training businesses, kind of education, that kind of stuff. Equipment businesses, kind of the big. commercial espresso machines in there. I started a coffee coffee recruitment.

business. that I ultimately sold a little while. back. I'm trying to think of other things. I. started a magazine. I've started a bunch. of other stuff. And then this, you know. getting into YouTube that's become a. weird in and of itself that I didn't. plan to start, but is now a kind of. all-consuming business. With With the YouTube business, you must. have learned a lot about what people are. interested in as it relates to coffee. Cuz you'll see you talk about certain. things and people just seem to gravitate. towards those subject matters. Yep. What. What is it that people care so much. about as it relates to coffee in your. audience care about? That's a great.

question. Because I think coming into. this, I I for years and years, as people. did back then, wrote a blog. And I wrote. a blog to sort of share information. about coffee cuz it was great for me to. learn and also there's a benefit to. sharing. I think if you give, things. come back to you in the world. And then people stopped reading blogs. and I started making videos. And I think. having worked in the coffee industry for. 20 years, we had tried to talk to people. about coffee and nothing really hit. And. people weren't really interested. They. didn't like the way we talked about it. And suddenly YouTube, I found a way to. connect with people. And it turns out we.

vastly underestimated how broad and how. deep people's interest in coffee is. Yeah, people care about which machine. should I buy? And that remains a. question that I will be asked I think. for the end of my days. Excuse me, so. which machine? Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I'm. genuinely want to know which machine I. should buy because. Well, I don't know. Like it depends what. your needs are. Like what's your budget? Like what do you want to spend? What. kind of experience do you want? Right? Like But I love an espresso and I want I. like speed and I want. I mean I'm like everybody. I want it to.

be super fast and really nice. So the the problem with espresso. specifically Okay. is that good espresso. is a little bit tricky. And it means to. get really great espresso at home, you. kind of want to have it as a hobby. And. if that does not appeal to you. then don't get an espresso machine for. home because you will spend a ton of. money and you I can get you the best. machine in the world, put it on your. counter. After a week, you'll be like, "I just can't be bothered. I don't want. to do this." And I think suddenly the. £2.50, £3 that the independent business.

charges you, you're like, "Oh, that's. great. I will happily pay you to go. through the pain of making espresso.". Because it's messy, it's slow, it's. convoluted, it's tricky, it's. frustrating. And as a hobby, really. rewarding, but as a way to caffeinate. yourself in the morning. not the best. What about an Americano? Like a great Americano. a great filter coffee? Yeah. There's. There's definitely options there and and. you can buy. a a machine and grinder and spend. Well, you can get an incredible setup. for like £500. Bearing in mind espresso.

machines, an incredible setup will be. two, three, four thousand pounds. If. you're looking at the like the the top. end of stuff. You can go all the way up. to I could spend 10 10, 15 thousand. pounds of your money if you let me. Uh. uh. If that's that's where the budget sort. of top out in in home espresso. But it's. kind of at that point it's like home. home audio where people just they want. the best possible thing and if they have. the budget, that market exists. I'm. moving into a new house, so I'm like. right in the moment now of thinking. about how to solve this morning coffee. problem.

So I'm trying to find something I can. maybe install. And and the thing with me is I don't I. ain't got a huge amount of time. So I. kind of would just want an iPad. I. Ideally, I'd just speak to it and say, "Please give me coffee." And it would. just come out, you know. Yeah, we're not. there yet. Okay. We're not there yet. The coffee industry is improving and the. automation side is improving. By and. large, this sort of super automatic. stuff where you just push a button and. everything happens and coffee comes out. There's a bunch of dull technical. challenges that mean they can't make as. good a coffee as you could do if you. were willing to do a little bit of work.

I thought so. And that's I I'm not going. to lie to you. That's just the truth of. it. They're getting better and there are. more and more solutions. Um. And there's some great high kind of. convenience. solutions to coffee. But. if you want to have fresh coffee made at. home and it's be as good as possible. I'm going to ask you to do tiny bits of. work. Just just pour beans in a grinder, put grinder ground coffee into a little. machine and push a button. Which. machine? Well, it depends on your aesthetic at. this point then, right? Like there's. some really nice filter coffee. It.

depends how much coffee you need. Like. how much how much you need in the. morning? I've got to say I've got £100, £200 to solve this coffee problem. In. total? In total. To for the machinery. Okay, so the bad news. is that. Good bad news. Coffee grinders are the the right. investment, right? They are more important than the. machine. You can give me a 20 quid. filter coffee brewer from Amazon, but if. you give me a decent grinder, I can get. some pretty good coffee out of it. Oh,

really? If you give me a 20 pound coffee grinder. and a five grand machine, I can make. pretty terrible coffee. Average coffee at best, right? So the. grinder, how how it cuts the coffee. essentially, you'll often see people. have little whirly blade grinders. You. push a button, it spins madly. Just. smashes it to pieces, but there's no. real control of the size of the pieces. So some will be tiny particles, others. will be big rocks. Really hard to evenly brew tiny pieces. the same way you'd brew a massive piece. of coffee. And so you get a kind of. bitter, sour coffee as a result of it.

Good coffee grinders have spinning discs. inside that cut to a specific size. So. all the coffee is pretty much the same. size mostly, and that's much easier to. work with, but they cost more money cuz. they need better motors and nicer. cutting discs and that kind of stuff. Not crazy amounts, but. yeah, you're looking at like. uh at least 100 to 200 pounds for a good. grinder. Okay. And I'd love to tell you. it wasn't the the case, and grinders are. getting It used to be like 500 pounds. for a good grinder at home. It's coming. down all the time.

Uh but yeah, I'd say I'd need like 150. Okay. Maybe off you. Okay. I can get you a really great grinder. that should last a lifetime and make you. cafe quality coffee. It's not a It's not a you know, it just. couldn't do it 500 times a day the way a. coffee shop's one could. But that's where you're going to spend. money. And then, you could just get a. simple pour-over cone. a little and just pour water. uh onto coffee on top of a mug, and life. be really easy that way. Going back to. this this point though about what you've. discovered about people's interest in. coffee from your YouTube journey. The. first thing you said there was people.

want to know what machines and stuff, and then I interrupted, so please do. No, no. I mean, that for for me, the. strategy initially was So, I I I My. bigger umbrella goal of YouTube is that. I want people to enjoy coffee more for a. bunch of reasons, and I want them to see. it as a more valuable piece of their. life. So, that at some point, they might. be willing to spend a bit more money on. it. That's That's the sort of top line. goal. What I'm then trying to do is find. them. And reviews are a good way to sort. of find people. Someone will be like, "Which is the best espresso machine to. buy?" They find me. If I entertain them,

uh if I build trust with them, I hope. they'll keep watching. And then, I can. take them on a journey. uh into coffee, and I can open up new. kind of avenues of exploration for them. That's the kind of goal. That's what I'm. trying to do. So, in part, we do that through machine. reviews and equipment reviews, in part. through kind of techniques. If you got a. French press, cafetiere, what is the. best way to use that? I want to be there. to help you do that. But it's it's a lot. of it's about building trust so that. down the line, we can go and talk about. something totally different, and you'll. listen, and you'll trust me. And and.

that sort of trust is super important to. me in in terms of like building an. audience. Um. because coffee has this really future. Uh climate change is bad for coffee, really really bad. And to some extent, maybe we don't deserve to have coffee. after we've ruined the planet. I'd hear. that argument. But as temperatures. increase around the world, coffee needs cooler temperatures to. grow. And the only way you can sort of get. cooler temperatures as the world heats. up is to go higher up the mountain. It's. already mountain grown. It's already. growing at.

1,500 m, 2,000 m. The problem with. mountains is that the higher you go, there's generally less of the mountain. You know what I mean? There's less area. around the world that can grow specialty. coffee, grow great quality coffee. So, the future is. there'll be less great coffee in the. future. Cheap coffee will be around for. a while. It doesn't need the same kind. of conditions, but great coffee has a. difficult future ahead of it. And there. are millions of people whose livelihoods. depend on that. And that's. it's not a great system, so to speak.

It's like we There's a lot of problems. with how coffee production. uh. is incredibly unfair towards the people. who produce it. But if if we are to remain customers, we. need to be comfortable spending a little. bit more on coffee in the future. And if you enjoy coffee, spending an. extra pound a bag, 2 pounds a bag, if. you really enjoy it, fine. No problem at all. You know what I mean? I will keep coffee as a part of my life. But But. that that's kind of one of the. motivating factors for me. I want more. people to enjoy it just cuz I like. bringing pleasure to people. Like I.

That's great. You know what I mean? But. in the future, I want coffee consumers. to still be there through the challenges. that coffee production faces. What about these pods? The coffee pod machines that a lot of. people are using and that are getting. more and more popular. Wake up in the. morning, grab the pod, whack it in. there, boom, hit button. Out comes coffee. Yeah. Um. the best analogy I can make is that. they're a microwave meal. And microwave. meals. are what they are. They are of a. quality. They are super convenient.

There's a fair amount of waste attached. to them. And um you could probably do. better with a little bit of effort, and. it would cost you less. Do you Do you. use those pods? Not really. Not the Like. I There are some and they're they're. kind of. separate and different. I I don't want. to get into it right now. Um. I think a lot of the sort of small. Nespresso kind of style capsule ones are. very popular. I just wish they were a bit more. recyclable. There's a bit of waste. associated with those. But ultimately, they're very expensive. Actually, for. what you're you're paying a lot of money.

for that, and you're paying for the. convenience, I think. For the same price. per kilo, you could buy some of the best. coffees in the world for what you're. spending on a capsule cuz you're you're. spending money for 5 g of coffee, cuz. that's what it is. Uh. but the convenience is is very strong, and it's been so success I can't argue. with convenience. We love a little. convenience. But the possibility of of quality. is far greater once you move beyond. those. You know what I mean? Like anytime we go. convenience, we have to sacrifice.

something. And it's usually quality. And it's. usually value. Ultimately, we're going to pay more for. that convenience. So, I get it. I get not wanting to make. espresso, but wanting something like. espresso in the mornings. They've really succeeded in sort of. filling that market. But they are to me still a kind of. microwave meal. Is there any culture that doesn't drink. have coffee? No, everyone drinks Everyone drinks. coffee. People have tried to ban it a. few times. It was seen as a kind of.

seditious drink that's kind of uh So, from a political perspective, uh they. tried to ban it in the UK briefly. I. think. King James, I want to say, tried to ban. it. Doesn't last very long. We tend to. get pretty grumpy if you try and ban it. Uh. It had a sort of They asked the Pope to. ban it at one point, and he was like, "No, it's great." And so, he he didn't. do that. That was hundreds of years ago. But yeah, coffee. was often linked to uh politics in the. early days. So, London. was the greatest coffee drinking city in. the world for a while. From 16.

late 1600s, coffee just comes here to. the city of London and takes over. Because up until that point, we were. drinking a lot of weak beer. That was. the sort of safe uh high-calorie, high B. vitamin kind of drink that we drunk. And. we were all a little bit drunk most of. the time from drinking a couple liters. or 3 liters of weak beer a day. Coffee arrives, and it's this safe drink. that is totally the opposite to beer. It. is stimulating, and it transforms London. society of the time. And we get obsessed with it. Coffee.

houses appear everywhere. There is the. story that in the square mile in the. early 1700s, there were 2,000 coffee. shops. Now, that's that's excessive. It. wasn't that many. It was probably. but it was several hundred. Like they were everywhere, and they. quickly diversified and sort of. specialized into specific things. And. so, uh very famously, Lloyd's of London, the insurance broker, started as a. coffee shop called Lloyd's of London, and people did business at the tables. Those became offices. And to this day, runners in there are still called. waiters.

And so, that just happened to specialize. in shipping insurance, that coffee. house. Others specialized in politics. Others specialized in literature. They. became known as penny universities. because you could pay a penny to get. into a London coffee house, and you. would gain the education just from. listening to people talk of a university. degree. And so, they were these. incredible places for a while. Uh eventually, our colonial interest. shifted to tea, and the coffee house. went into the decline in sort of 1700s, 1800s. But for about 100 years, London.

was the most incredible coffee drinking. city in the world. When coffee came to the UK, Mhm. and. when it came to the Western world, was. there a productivity boom? Yeah, 100%. Uh huge change in culture. Massive. because we were no longer drunk all the. time. Um So, yeah, it arrives in London, I. think, in 1652 is the the first coffee. shop that's right just near Bank tube. station. You can see a little blue. plaque on the wall if you go looking for. it there. Uh yeah, we we absolutely fell in love. with it. It became a part of industry, culture, politics, everything. Like it.

it supercharged the nation. There are. people who argue that uh you know, we we. awake from this drunken stupor, and then. are like, "Well, what's the rest of the. world got to offer?" And we go and. become the colonial, you know, horror. show that we were after that. And you. can blame coffee for that. But uh that's. a bit of a stretch. But it it was a. massive shift in society. I I think for most of my life assumed. that tea didn't have caffeine in it. I. don't know why. I just always thought. coffee, caffeine. I think cuz they sound. similar. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But then I I I heard at one point.

that tea also has caffeine in it as. well. bit. Nowhere near the quantities uh of. coffee. But you know, if you're drinking. 10, 12 cups of tea a day, it's probably. worth paying attention to how much is in. there. And how you steep your tea and. all that kind of stuff will have an. impact on how much caffeine's in there. And what's your What's your favorite cup. of coffee? You get must get asked this. all the time. get asked this all the time, and I. still, after 20 years, don't have a. great answer. I drink a lot of filter. coffee. Uh So, what is filter coffee? So, filter coffee is not from an. espresso machine. So, it's going to be. brewed either in a filter coffee machine.

or by hand. You'll see a lot of people. pouring water over coffee. Uh the drink is going to be the same. kind of strength as Americano, but it's. a sort of It's a It's a weaker thing. I'm I'm not obsessed with espresso the. same way. I want a cup of black coffee. Cuz I want to take my time. Because as you taste a cup of coffee, if. it's a great cup of coffee, as it cools. down, it's its flavor kind of opens up. and becomes really interesting and. complex. And so, I like the idea that I. can sit for 10, 15 minutes, and if I. want to, have a really enjoyable kind of. journey of flavor. That for me is is the the kind of.

great bit about coffee. Yeah, I'll drink. an espresso sometimes if I want a little. short shot of something tasty. But But. the idea that I can, if I want, have 10, 15 minutes to myself to enjoy this thing. and see some benefits afterwards. That's. a wonderful thing. So, I like coffees. from all over the world. I feel like I'm forcing myself into a. tiny space here. If I could only drink. coffee from one country for the rest of. my life, it would probably be coffees. from Colombia. They just have a real spread of flavors, but really just incredible coffees come.

from that part of the world. But there's. amazing coffee from just just about. every producing country. If you're. within. the Tropic of Cancer and the Tropic of. Capricorn, that kind of belt around the. earth, then you can probably grow coffee. above certain altitudes. And almost. every country that is in that band does. grow coffee. So there's a lot of. different places that grow it. And. there's going to be great coffee in all. of those places. And there'll be cheap. and low quality coffee in all those. places, too. But yeah, there's. the range that the spread is massive. Do.

you pull sugar and milk into your. coffee? I don't use sugar and milk. And. I get why people do, because most coffee. benefits from sugar and milk. Milk is a. very. It has a weird quirk. It's a bitter. blocker. It inhibits bitterness. So when. you put it into a harsh bitter cup of. coffee, it does soften that. We of. course like sweet things. I think one. thing to note when it comes to all of. the studies that look at coffee and is. coffee healthy, they'll be like, yes, coffee's healthy if you drink it black. And if you're putting a lot of cream and.

a lot of sugar into your coffee, there. are the health benefits very quickly. taken away. You know what I mean? It's. it's not quote unquote as healthy a. drink. For me, putting milk or sugar. into coffee kind of hides the flavors a. little bit. And so I I I want to taste. it without. I get why people want to put. it in there. I don't have an issue with. people sweetening or adding a little. milk or cream. But. you kind of lose. some of what makes coffee so. interesting. In. this book, Yes.

make the best coffee at home. One of the. points you make is quite surprising. You. say that once a. Cuz I used to think that coffee was a. shelf staple. Mhm. I used to think you. get it, you can grind it, you can put it in the. cupboard, and it kind of lasts forever. Yeah. And it doesn't change. You make the case that I'm wrong. It is. sadly not the case. It's fresh food, unfortunately. The the challenge coffee. has is that we just can't see it change. If I dice up an apple and I leave it for.

a couple of hours, you can see the. change in it. It's staling in a bunch of. different ways. When you smash coffee. into little pieces, when you grind it to. fine powder, you kick start a bunch of. chemistry that you can't undo. And some. of that's oxidation, where oxygen. transforms things and turns fats a. little bit rancid over time. You lose a. bunch of the aromas locked inside the. bean. It just gets less interesting. tasting. If you want the best experience. for coffee, grinding it fresh is is the. way to do it. Also, grinding coffee is. one of the like the best smells in the.

world. Why would you not have that as. part of your life? And so yeah, coffee. is fresh food. And if you treat it like. fresh food, it tastes way better. How. long does it take to decay? Yeah, it's a good question. I had it in the in the cupboard, you. know, Once you grind coffee, most people would easily detect a. difference a day later. And and they. would say it tasted notably worse 2 days. later. And so buying pre-ground coffee is. buying high convenience, but the cost is. you never got to experience how good.

that coffee was at the moment it was. ground. So if I buy it in supermarkets, Yeah. it's going to taste awful compared. to Yeah, you just coffee shop. yeah, you get a lot less for your money. in terms of flavor. It will have. degraded. They can gas flush it and. they'll you know, pack the bags with. inert gases and stuff. But the minute. you open that bag, it's on its way out. And it will happen. really quickly. And so. the downside is. coffee grinders cost a little bit of. money, and they take up a little bit of. space, and they're another step in the. morning between you and getting the.

caffeine in in the system. I understand. that. But if you want the best value for. money, a bag of beans costs the same as a bag. of ground coffee, even though the ground. coffee has more cost in terms of. manufacture. But the value of the beans is just way. higher. It just tastes way better. And. so having a grinder lets you get better. value for money in the coffee that you. buy going forwards. What do you think the future of coffee. is? We've talked a little bit about the. history of coffee. But where where do do. you think the coffee industry and public. opinion around coffee goes from here?

You know, I think we've fallen pretty. deeply in love with coffee in a. different kind of way in the last few. years. I think the the pandemic. caused a seismic shift in coffee. consumption around the world. People had. grown used to going out to coffee shops, drinking good quality coffee, and and. that was part of their lives. And when. the pandemic happened and people. couldn't do that, the growth in coffee. equipment at home was astronomical. This. was This was something people wanted to. invest in and were not willing to let go.

of. I I wasn't really sure pre-pandemic, as you said, how much do people really. love coffee? I'm like, well, they like. it a lot, but you know, maybe they'd let. it go if it got too expensive. But in. that moment where we took it away, people like, absolutely not. Coffee. stays. And and and that was really. heartening to me. And that was all over. the world. Every every market, every. country I spoke to people, they saw the. same thing. Huge interest in coffee at. home. So I feel good about that. I feel. like the promise of specialty coffee. where we where we said, you know, the the promise of specialty.

coffee where we said, coffee can be. better. It's a bit more expensive, but. it tastes more interesting. People have. enjoyed that and found that to be true. So right now, I feel very good about. coffee consumption from a. longevity point of view for the. industry. People want to keep drinking. coffee. Like I said, the the challenge on one. side remains coffee production's future. It's going to be increasingly difficult. to grow great quality coffee in the. future with climate change. We're. already seeing the impact of that. Now,

which is rainfall patterns, all sorts of. other stuff, is making coffee harder to. grow. That's going to put the price of. it up in the future for the high quality. stuff. But for a while, I think it will sort of stay. I don't. think we're willing to let go. I think. we are going to be be paying more. attention to caffeine in the future. And. I think that's a good thing. I would. encourage people to pay more attention. to caffeine in the future. And that may. decrease our consumption overall. And. I'm also okay with that, too. I'd rather. people spent good money on two great. cups of coffee a day than just five. average ones just to get them through.

Like I'm okay with lowering consumption. and increasing the quality of it. That. works very well for me. Because I think it will bring more. pleasure to people ultimately. They. enjoy the coffee they drink more. It's. not this mindless cheap thing they. endlessly consume. It's a moment of. pleasure. And I think it can be this. moment of absolute delight and interest. and pleasure. If you were looking for. your moment of pleasure walking through. the streets of London, Yes. where would you turn? Which shop would. you go into? I mean, we're talking about. coffee here when I say moment of. pleasure. Just so just in case you you.

thought something else. No. Um. Um where would you turn? Cuz I'm walking. through London all the time. And as a. muggle, I look up and I go, okay, all. these logos, they're all saying coffee. Where should I be? Should I be going for. a random independent and rolling the. dice? Should I be going to a chain? What's your POV? London has some of the. best independent coffee shops in the. world. You know, like and that's true of most. major cities now. Like incredible coffee. is is very available now if you know. where to look. And I guarantee that's. the tricky bit, knowing in advance. By. and large though, there is enough.

written about on the internet. If you. search best specialty coffee in whatever. city, you'll find a a great list of 20. that will be a good experience. It might. be a bit more expensive, but it will be. I think a better coffee experience. I. get I buy coffee from chains when I have. to. I get that. But given the choice, I. would love to go and visit an. independent business. See someone's. expression, you know what I mean? Someone's aesthetics, someone's vibes, someone's experience. It can be. different. And why wouldn't I want to. explore different and new? So I think. it's just an opportunity for discovery.

Loads of like bands that tour the world. get obsessed with coffee, because it's a. great way to explore a city. It's a. great way to kind of find the new. neighborhoods and just check places out. and just have something fun and. enjoyable in the day. And I think coffee's a great way to. explore new cities. And you talk to. people who work in great coffee shops, they'll recommend you the best bars, the. best restaurants. Like that network is. so easy to tap into there that it it's. the the best hack. You throw me in a. random city, I'll find a good coffee. shop and ask the question, where should. I eat? Okay.

the best bakery. I've got a challenge. for you here. Okay. I throw you into a random city. Let's. just call that city London. Yep. And I. put you in front of. all of the chains. Yes. They're all the same distance from your. feet. Yeah. Which one does James walk towards? And why? Really difficult question. If I'm. honest, if you made me buy a coffee. drink that I see I have to buy a coffee. drink, right? Is that the I can't just. have nothing in it. Nothing and. sparkling water and run away.

Um. You have to get your favorite coffee. from one of these chains. harder, cuz otherwise I'd go to like. Starbucks and get like a dessert in a. cup and go. Because there is, you know, there's enough sort of fat and sugar in. there. That's it's a good time. You know. what I mean? Like I can't deny there's a. little bit of delight in. a little Frappuccino. Um. Well, I like filter coffee. And so by. and large, I would typically probably. end up at a Starbucks, cuz they're one. of the few that do filter coffee, where. it's sort of brewed as filter coffee, distinct and different from a an. Americano. And sometimes you can be mean and ask.

them to make a specific coffee and they. have to do that for you if you ask just. right. So that would be the the lazy answer to. that. You walk into a Starbucks, what do you. say? Uh. If I'm being fully weird, Be fully weird. Fine. Then I'm going to look. I'm going to look at the tanks. They'll. have two tanks of like filter coffee. prepped. They'll have timers counting. down on them, which is how old they are. Because the. longer filter coffee sits, the worse it. tastes. And so I'm going to look for the. one that has the longest time left on. the tank before they have to throw it.

away. I'm going to get a small cup or. What is it there? I can't remember. Tall, is it? I don't know. Who knows? A. tall cup of that filter coffee, because. it's going to be the freshest brewed. thing that they have. And that's my kind. of answer. It's a bit weird to start looking at. timers though. But once you notice it, you'll see them sitting there. Interesting. So you walk in, you say you look at the. timers, and then you make a request to. have the one that's freshest. Yes, cuz I would rather have, say, a. darker roast that I don't enjoy as much. that's fresher than a lighter roast. that's been sitting around a couple. hours or something like that. I don't. know whether I can't remember what their. use times is. It might be an hour, hour.

and a half. I want it fresher than that. So, that's. that's my thing. I think in a lot of. Starbucks, if you ask them to make a. French press for you, they they still. have to do that. Um. so, yeah, there's like an option that's. like an off-menu option. Some have said. yes over the years, some have been just. been like straight no. Uh but that was a a good little hack for. a while. But yeah, by and large, I'll. get filter coffee from the freshest pot. that they have. What is your sleep like? Pretty good. I work hard at that though. Like I I pay a lot of attention to sleep. because it's it's important to me and. it's important for future me and I'm.

trying to do a better job. I'm old. enough now that future me is important. thing. Uh in my 20s, future me was not. very important to me. And in my 40s, I've got to think. differently. You seem like a very obsessive person. I. wouldn't say obsessive. I would I would. I would disagree. you're so passionate is a better word. You're starting lots of businesses. You. probably got more ideas than you have. hours in the day. Comfortably. You remind me of myself in. that. There's a cost to this obsession. Yes. What is the cost? Uh. Yeah, I think um.

probably like uh. if you stopped me and said, "What do you. do for fun?" I'd have to stop and think. about that for quite a long time because. it's a really tricky question of like, "Oh wait, what do I what do I I I work. and I do coffee things and then I sleep. and then, you know, there's like. whatever home life.". Oh yeah, I've sort of sacrificed a. little bit of that and I don't think I. have a hobby, if that makes sense. Like. I I I think that's probably not unusual. in in a certain. uh group of people, but yeah, I do. sometimes think. the the the kind of feeling of like I've. got so much to do all the time. I think.

a lack of space would probably be my. loss and and I don't know what I'd do. with it if I had time to do nothing. But I occasionally grieve emptiness in. the day. Mhm. As you play your your life forward, are. you mentally planning to make some. adjustments to the way that you're. living now as you look forward into the. future? Cuz I always think I'm doing. that. I think 5 years time or in 10. years time, I'll do this, I'll sell this. thing, and I'll just be a little bit. more chill. A little bit more chill.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I've been lying to. myself that way for 15. I would love to I I think part of me. knows that I enjoy what I do. And I and. if I sold all my businesses tomorrow, I'd just start another one. And and and. that's going to happen for a while. And. maybe. if I get older, like it changes. You. know what I mean? I'm like, "Oh, maybe. I'm done doing this the whole thing.". But it's it's it's the part of you. learns that these can be fun. Like the. game is fun. of making things, creating things, and. then growing these things. It's just.

fun. So, yeah, I'd love to I think for me, I'd love to just find more time for. stuff like exercise and that kind of. stuff, investing there. And you could argue and probably should. argue that. I should be doing that now because how. is what is more important than health? What is more important than health? And. the answer is nothing is more important. than health. So, why am I not making the. time for the additional cardio and. making the the time, you know, to get a. little bit more lifting, a little bit. more hitting? Why am I not making that. time now? Cuz there's no good reason. Well, I am starting to now. Like I'm. I've wrestling with it enough. I'm like,

"Fine, I'm going to make my life even. more complex, squeeze my day even shorter, and I will. find the time." Um you know, Peter Attia. has broken my brain too. You know, happens to all of us. But like. um. Yeah. I definitely go through the thing of. like, "Yeah, I will do this. I'll spend. less time on this stuff. I'll have more. time. I'll do yoga. I'll spend, you. know, more time on myself in the. future." But I think I know I love what. I do. I really enjoy it. And it changes. all the time and no one day is the same.

as the next. And I love that and I can. cope with that. If your kids come to you. though, your two young kids, and they. say, "Daddy, I want career advice.". Yeah. Based on the journey that you've been on. yourself and the path that you've. walked, when you look back at the sort. of the key components of the success. you've achieved in a very specific. industry, what advice would you give to them? I think lean into the things that. genuinely interest you because there's. opportunities in everything. Even if it's like pen lids or I don't. know, bio 100% if genuinely passionate.

about it, then there's opportunity. there. Coffee was not a a growth. industry. No one was proud that their. kid worked in coffee in the early 2000s. Do you know what I mean? Like oh, they're doing that before they get the. next job in the thing or they're doing. that to pay themselves through here. To. work in coffee was not. like a career. That was a weird thing to. think then. I loved it and I was. encouraged in it and given opportunity. in it and I flourished in it. And so, for me, whatever the future of work holds, I. think creativity and empathy are. important parts of that and passion is.

another piece of it. And I hope they. have the opportunity to be passionate. about something. And you know, I figure. that's what your 20s are for, right? Like find the thing you're excited. about. And then in your 30s? Do it. Do it. really well. Don't do it stupidly like I. did. Like I did I fell for the whole. hustle grind nonsense and I worked too. many hours and I nearly hated the thing. that I loved. cuz that's what culture was then. It was. like you've got to work every hour and. if you're not sleeping under your desk, what are you even doing? Which is a lie. and stupid and deeply unhealthy in my.

opinion. But you know, I you know, that was when. my career really took off. And yeah, I'd. won this World Barista Championship. thing in my 20s, but. nobody cared. In the UK, nobody cared. There was no no one was impressed by. that. If I was the world's best sandwich. maker, that was a career. But coffee? Ah, whatever. Different now, but but you. know, yeah, I I feel like. I I think people know that now. There's. more time to just kind of work out what. you want to do and that's okay to not be.

getting stuck into the perfect thing. right away. Like it's okay to mess. around and find out what you like and. what you don't like. I did a bunch of terrible jobs too. I. worked in casinos. I sold gas and. electric door-to-door. I worked in music. publishing and I hated all of them. And. I was great cuz now I know what I don't. want to do. When you think about. particularly though your success in this. industry cuz some people will have. passion, but they won't be able to. become the number one world barista. champion. When you reflect and do kind. of a skills audit of yourself, what what.

do you pull out of there and go, "That's. the reason why I was able to go so far. in this particular industry?". I think I had a lot of practice at. communication. That's what I was going. to I was one of the things I really. noticed about you is your communication. skills. So, I had dual practice. One as I said, I wrote this blog which was about. digesting information well enough to. explain it back to someone else. And so, that was a great process for me. Secondly, I had a weird job where I was. a training. I was kind of national training manager. for an espresso machine company. And I. had in the back of my car a commercial. machine, projector, screen. Like I I was.

a mobile cafe and I would travel the. whole UK, build out a kind of set set. travel the whole UK, build out a lecture. room, lecture to 30 random people for 3 hours, pack it down, go to the next city or. next town or whatever else. And so, it. was it was public speaking of a sort. Mhm. uh with a totally cold audience who. did not care or really be that. interested. Can you win them over? Can. you communicate? Can you teach them? That was an incredible 2 years of my. life of doing that every week. What age?

Uh that was 25, 26. And I was a terrible. public speaker beforehand. And now I. love it. I love being on stage. I love. that kind of communication. And it helps. to make videos and it helps to talk to. people and it helps to kind of chew your. thoughts before you spit them out again. And yeah, it's. just. Isn't it You know, if I was thinking if.

young kids now, what what the most. of communication that comes with. empathy. And that's kind of why I love. the service industry and and and. encourage people to spend time working. in cafes or restaurants because it's a. great place to have to read people all. the time. Mhm. What do they need right. now? Cuz that's what a coffee shop. should be. It should be a reliable. vendor of happiness. You should walk in. that building and walk out happier, in a. better mood, happier. That's the kind of.

key thing. But that's required that. requires someone on the other side. looking at you and being like, "What do. you need today?" Mhm. And not just. asking you that, but do you want a. conversation? Do you want to know about. the coffee or do you want me to just. shut up and make it as fast as I can? That empathy piece, that reading of. people is so important and such a great. skill that you can take out of. hospitality into whatever else you want. to do. And I don't think hospitality really. kind of advertises that aspect of it. enough. When I look at you, if I was to do a. skills audit, I'd say.

clearly an incredibly hard worker. That's going to be a great tailwind. through through your career. Um curiosity. Huge amount of curiosity which I think. kind of couples up with the word. learning that you used at the start. You. love to learn. Yeah. And you your wealth. of knowledge because of that curiosity. is huge. Your ability to then articulate. what you know and what you've learned. and what you've condensed, I think, is a. huge one. But not just articulate it, tell stories that are like compelling in. an in a compelling way. The way you. speak, the intonations, all of that. keeps people with you. Um and then yeah, I guess the repetitions of like the.

craft itself, like knowing how to make. great coffee yourself by actually. spending a long time doing it. Which is. different from being a parrot. Like. practitioners and parrots are two. separate things. You're clearly a. practitioner. And a great like I'm not a. parrot cuz you're not repeating things. You're you've learned these things. yourselves. But you're a great talker, but also a great practitioner. That's. very kind of you. And then you've got 20. years behind you and [ __ ] me, 20 years. of doing anything, you can you know, you. become a master, so. yeah. That's my assessment. And then you're. like a likable individual. You're very. likable guy. You've got a nice constant.

your your resting face is a smirk like a. smile, which is endearing. I think I'm. broadly happy. You seem like a happy guy, so Yeah, I. don't think I have any reason not to be. Yeah. What is um what is the message to. the world then, the closing message to. the world about coffee? If you had to give one, if you were. speaking to everyone on planet Earth. right now, and you had to just give them a few. couple sentences. This is your megaphone. to the entirety of the world, 8 billion. people. If you want it to be, coffee's really. great fun. It it if you are willing to put in a. little tiny bit, I guarantee you will.

get way more out. However you enjoy your. coffee, whatever you enjoy about coffee, it's got more to give and and it's I. promise a ton of fun. That's what I will call away here. with as many. with all the other insights into you, your life, coffee itself. The big thing. I will come away from this conversation. with is an increased excitement about. coffee. Good. I hope to fan the flames. of that after this. Yeah, and I'm really. going to I really No, I really mean. that. I'm. I feel like I'm you might have just sent. me on my own little coffee journey. Oh,

come and have coffee with me somewhere. We'll go and get a bunch of stuff. We'll. do a little coffee tasting for you and. and see what you really like. I know. you've got no time, so that's not a real. invite, but thank you for that. it is. It is. I'm just up the road from. here. Like anytime, we'll do it. I. appreciate that. I'll take you up on. that. All right. Okay, so we we have a. closing tradition on this podcast where. the last guest leaves a question for the. next guest. And I cannot believe I have. to ask you this bloody question. I'm. ready. You will you will think I'm lying when I. read this. Okay. But I have to read it because that's my.

job. ready. No, you're not. Okay. What is the duration of your nighttime. erections? Did you just have Brian Johnson on here? Is that Is that from Brian Johnson? Um I don't know Brian. The little device. was sold out by the time I saw it. Uh. I I don't I yeah, I don't know. Well, we. should all be finding out apparently. Neither do I. I mean, Jesus Christ, that's not going to make the. conversation cards that question. [ __ ]. sake, Brian. Um but thank you so much. Do you know. what? These books are just absolutely.

beautiful. Thank you very much. These. Have you Have you just done two of them? Or is there more to come out? the Atlas is a second edition now, and. then the other one just came out. The. World Atlas of Coffee is one of the most. beautiful books I've ever seen in my. life, and it's got. They did a great job. beautifully rich. photography in it, lots of history, all. of the equipment questions that I've. been asking you about. So, if anyone. really wants to understand coffee, or. I'll tell you what, get someone a great. book if they're a coffee fan, that is. the book. That is absolutely gorgeous. And then the second book, How to Make.

the Best Coffee at Home, I mean, we we. we touched on this a little bit, but it. goes into such great muggle detail. because even as an idiot I can. understand all of this stuff um as to. how to build your own little home setup. and the process that is important to. great coffee. That is right. Yeah. The. first one was kind of written as a. guidebook as coffee got big and weird. and confusing and and there was just a. lot of information suddenly. I kind of. wrote the first one as a guidebook to. this new wave of coffee. And the second. one really is people have embraced. coffee at home. I just want to make it.

as easy as possible by focusing on the. stuff that matters and not all the kind. of voodoo or weird sort of. uh. odd traditions around that and just the. stuff that really makes a difference. You didn't have to make them so. beautiful, but they're such beautiful. books throughout. So, I'll link them. both in the description below for anyone. that wants to check them out. Thank you. James, thank you so much. It's been a. pleasure. I feel inspired. I like really enjoyed this. Thank you. And I I'm excited to go and get a. wonderful. McDonald's coffee immediately after this. conversation's done. So, thank you. Thank you.

A quick word on Huel. As you know, they're a sponsor of this podcast and. I'm an investor in the company. It is. finally here, 3 years of work from Huel. to try and make a bar, a snack bar that. is nutritionally complete. As of the. recording of this episode, they finally. released these bars that are high in. protein, 27 vitamins and minerals, and. just 2 g of sugar. The impossible has. been done. And it tastes so goddamn. good. Often these snack bars, these like. high protein snack bars, taste like. you're eating Play-Doh or cardboard or.

something. It's so hard to make one that. is nutritionally complete and that. tastes good. And ladies and gentlemen, here we have it. I'm going to put the. link in the description to get your bar. below. Try it out and tag me and let me. know exactly how you get on because it's. so nice to finally have a bar that is. nutritionally complete and that actually. doesn't taste like cardboard and that. tastes delicious. The impossible has been accomplished. Do you need a podcast to listen to next? We've discovered that people who liked.

this episode also tend to absolutely. love another recent episode we've done. So, I've linked that episode in the. description below. I know you'll enjoy. it.