The Body Language Expert: 4 Body Language Tricks That Will Make People Love You & Respect You!

is body language really that important. yes for example when you change the. posture of people who are depressed it. reduces their symptoms tiny tweaks lead. to big changes Dr Amy Cuddy expert on. the Behavioral Science of power Harvard. Professor coined the term power pose the. second most watched Ted Talk of all time. now posture can affect some of the. biggest moments of Our Lives your body. language is betraying you fifty percent. of our first impression is based around. body language so the way that we carry.

ourselves really affects your life. because if people feel utterly powerless. they see challenges as threats instead. of opportunities they are less creative. less authentic so that's my mission to. help people feel more powerful and. become more socially Brave and there's. all kinds of ways in which we can fix it. is there a relationship there as well. between our body language and. attractiveness yeah there's research. showing that if you. that body language.

and in dating situations how we tell our. stories to ourselves matters as I've. read through your story there was. bullying in your life. it's the worst thing that ever happened. to me I had to leave my job after I'd. worked so hard to get there I almost. decided to die like I'm so afraid of. them still. um. I think this is fascinating I looked at.

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Subscribe button do we have a deal. [Music]. Amy. [Music]. there's lots of um myths around body. language and how important it is and you. hear all these phrases about oh 80 of. our communication is non-verbal or 90 I. can't remember the numbers but you hear. all of this stuff. is body language really that important. yes it is important absolutely and and. it it is it probably affects you know.

about about half of our impression of. others. our first impression is based around. body language. I'm not maybe it's higher than that but. I would say it's at least 50 body. language isn't just us speaking to. others we're also speaking to ourselves. the way that we carry ourselves is. sending messages back to our our brain. about whether we're safe or unsafe are. we threatened or not threatened are we.

you know confident or not confident and. so how do we know that well the the sort. of earliest studies looking at this idea. about. um Body Mind feedback we're focused on. facial expressions. and so we know that there are some. mostly universal expressions of emotion. that are facial and when I say mostly. there is some debate about.

um you know whether they're entirely. Universal to every single culture and. exactly which emotions they are but you. have things like happiness and smiling. sadness and crying. um you know widened eyes and surprise. those things are Universal. regardless of where you grew up and what. you were exposed to so if they're. Universal that indicates that they are. hardwired that we're born with some. Association in our brains. so if they're hardwired can you reverse. the direction of that wiring can you can.

you tell people to smile and will it. make them happier and so the facial. feedback studies showed that yes indeed. you can uh that you you know and the. first ones were were smiling and and. mood uh so you know they had people some. people hold a pencil between their teeth. in a way that made them smile and others. hold a pencil between their teeth in a. way that didn't make them smile the. people who were in this forced smile.

which did cause the contraction of the. muscles around the eyes which which is a. real smile even though it was a fake. smile it's not just your mouth it's your. mouth and your eyes they were in a. better mood their mood lifted they liked. the experimenter better they liked. anything put in front of them better. they felt happier than the people who. were not in this forced smile it was. then expanded to look at some of these. other Universal facial expressions like. crying and sadness. and then.

people started to look at things like. movement posture I would say the. earliest work really was on breathing. um you know when we get anxious we. breathe quickly and shallowly. and if you think about. and I'm not sure that you ever had this. experience but if you know you were. called on in class say in high school. and you weren't prepared or you had the. first time you had to give a speech in. front of class you know a lot of. students speak very quickly and you can.

tell that their their breathing is. shallow and they're they're breathing. quickly that's that's a fight or flight. response and so. you know can you turn that around. um and and so the the people who started. studying this called this the relaxation. response where they got people to change. their breathing and I'm gonna I'm. oversimplifying this but in essence. you're breathing more slowly and deeply. and that triggers a nervous system.

response that makes people feel much. more relaxed and more confident and safe. which impacts performance of their. speech whatever they're doing yes or the. context in which it was first studied. was medicine and trying to get patients. to feel calmer before stressful. procedures. her Benson at Harvard Medical School did. some of that early work I think you know. going back to the 60s and 70s so you. know that was but it wasn't sort of.

linked quite to psychology because it. was coming from medicine when you have a. person who is suffering from major. depressive disorder. uh open up open their posture just for a. couple of minutes. and then have them fill out a depression. scale afterwards they are less depressed. when you treat people with PTSD. by teaching them you know yoga poses. that open them up. it it reduces their PTSD symptoms so you.

know this is coming from all different. fields of study not just from social. psychology so there's a clear two-way. relationship between my posture and how. I'm feeling and then also how I'm. feeling in my posture which communicates. outwardly to the world about who I am. and exactly I don't know if you know the. answer to this question but it made me. wonder as you were talking do you know. how old language is I actually don't. know the answer I don't know it's like. how old is language.

between 150 to 200 000 years old. and how old are humans. okay so we have. about 50 000 years of people not having. sophisticated language and having to. read each other's body language which a. lot of non-human animals are doing all. the time yeah exactly I mean you know. it's it's funny we have these squirrels. in our front yard. um and they're really active and there.

are all kinds of body language signals. but also these different kinds of chirps. that they make and of course I was. curious I looked this up you know is are. they do these different chirps mean. different things like certain bird calls. really clearly mean certain things and. the ethologists the animal behavior. Specialists say that in with squirrels. they don't mean specific things but it's. it's still it's it's a body language. signal so even it's not formal language.

but but they they still get the sense. that there's something threatening. happening or not. or you know sometimes it's mating. related but they're not as specific as. bird calls which are closer to our. language than say these squirrel chirps. when you did that Ted Talk some 10 years. ago I think from what I read it became. the most viewed Ted Talk of all time in. its moment it's it became second most.

viewed. um and it has remained there for a long. time. so it it was never it was never the most. viewed but it certainly went viral. quickly. why why do you think people care so much. about this subject matter. it's funny because you know it still. gets five or ten thousand views a day. and it that's it's 10 years old. and I still get. 10 emails a day from strangers who've. just seen it for the first time.

thanking me. saying they felt that I was speaking to. them. and. so there must be something Timeless. about it that I that I didn't know I was. tapping into. but I think there was some universal. truth that resonated across people. across cultures and a lot of it was. about. feeling like an imposter I mean that you. know I talked about imposter syndrome. and the feeling like you don't belong.

there and it turns out almost everyone. has this imposter experience and in fact. the women who who originally studied. imposter syndrome says she wishes she. had called it the Imposter experience. because syndrome indicates that it's. pathological and it's not it's just it's. so common so what I found you know I I. was getting emails from first generation. you know. um. um uh black college students I was.

getting emails from. white males literally Swiss Bankers all. of these different people retired people. um uh 12 year old kids who felt that. they didn't belong there what I think. resonated was first it's okay you're not. the only one who feels that way it's. normal but also there are some things. that you can do to to to get out of.

feeling that way and so it very much is. about to me. um people feeling understood I feel like. it's when you. you know you love a song it speaks to. you it it it evokes a certain emotional. response because something about that. song makes you feel connected. and. I think something about the talk did the. same thing it made people feel. understood. um and not alone in their feelings of.

powerlessness and not belonging. and it gave them a blueprint as such to. to be more. to feel more powerful yes and something. that was you know didn't require. technology that didn't really require. much of anything. um. to to change the way they felt yes and. what is that blueprint. I feel like there's we know so much more. now than we knew then. then we we were having people adopt.

these expansive you know what we call. power poses for a couple of minutes and. looking at how it changed the way they. felt. um you know standing with their hands on. their hips for example or in the victory. pose with their arms up as if they had. just crossed the finish line and won you. know Usain Bolt for example and it. changed the way they felt so that was. the blueprint was was before you go into. this stressful situation you know find a. private space it's funny I said a.

bathroom stall I had not scripted that. that's just what came out and so many. people say I stood in a bathroom stall. and um Power pose before the job. interview or before pitching an idea or. something like that uh and and it. changed the way I felt. and so that was the blueprint but I I. feel like the idea of being expansive is. so much more expansive than that. um it's it's the way we walk it's taking. longer strides. um swinging our arms more it's uh it's.

talking more slowly it is which is. taking up temporal space it's that. breathing breathing more deeply and more. slowly it's all there are all kinds of. ways in which we can expand. that will change our feeling of agency. of power. not power over others but power over. ourselves or power too. and when that happens it activates what.

psychologists call the behavioral. approach system and the approach system. causes us to see challenges not as. threats but as opportunities it causes. us to see other people not as potential. Predators or competitors but as possible. allies and Friends. it makes us more creative because we're. not feeling cognitively limited we have. more of an abundance mindset than a. scarcity mindset we don't feel as. defensive we're more able to trust and I.

think maybe most important we're more. likely to act so when we feel powerful. we are more likely to take action not. just on behalf of ourselves but also on. behalf of others so when you look at. research on say bystander intervention. you know when do people step in and help. in emergencies one of the best. predictors is personal feeling. personally powerful when people feel. personally powerful they step in and. help they go hey something's wrong they.

don't second guess themselves and think. well maybe I'm not the right person to. help they just do it they step in and. help. so you know it it has it has so that. that feeling of power is linked to so. many other. uh feelings and and sort of aspects of. our mindset that change how we approach. life. so as we expand. and step forward the world expands.

so many people listening to this now. will be. unaware that they've been going through. their lives signaling to themselves and. to others a sense of they're in. powerlessness yes. um which is one of the first things that. I I was thinking about when I had was. reading through your work and watching. the videos was that most people don't. even know these are all unknown unknowns. so they're feeling a certain way they're. showing up in a certain way they're on. stage hiding behind the lectern in a. certain way and they have no idea the. profundity of that signal that they're.

sending to themselves and others right. what is how do I know that I'm signaling. that to myself and to others what are. the signs I think I ask people to do a. kind of audit of their body of how. they're holding themselves and it's. funny when I when I'm giving a talk and. speaking to a big group of people and I. say you know now check your posture I. can hear everyone immediately moving in. their chairs even if the lights are low. but I say no don't move yet check your. posture because what you think you think.

that when you're not the one performing. it your body language doesn't matter. because you again we're thinking we. think of body language as Just One. Direction what we're saying to others. but our body language is always speaking. to us as well so I ask them to think to. pay attention to what is their default. even just seated position are they. holding their shoulders up and forward. collapsing their chest are they wrapping. their hands or arms around their torso. or. powerlessness so like what's the it.

really is you know your your limbs are. pulled in your shoulders are pulled. forward your chest is collapsed. um legs might be crossed and ankles. wrapped I think the wrapping of the. ankles matters more than the crossing of. the legs if you watch sports and watch. what's happening what what is the. winning team doing versus the losing. team you really see it I mean you see. you know these big basketball players.

who are holding their heads in their. hands and you know leaning forward and. and they they look absolutely defeated. um even though they're they're just as. physically strong as they were five. minutes earlier when things were going. well so watching the body language of. like athletes for example and then. paying attention to what you're doing. yourself I think helps us to become much. more aware of how we're carrying. ourselves but you can do little things. like just when you get up in the morning.

you know if you wake up all curled up in. the fetal position which is the most. common sleeping position 40 of people. sleep in the fetal position. and we know that when people wake up in. the fetal position. they are more anxious than people who. don't that is obviously correlational we. don't know the the causal Direction. because it might be that you're anxious. and that's why you're sleeping in the. fetal position nonetheless say you wake. up in the fetal position stretch out you.

know into a starfish pose you know be. Usain bold in bed before you put your. feet on the ground on the ground one of. my research assistants said that he. would uh hold one of his hands on his. hip while he brushed his teeth like. little things that like that that sort. of. forced him to spend a little bit of time. expanding. really helped and I hear so many stories. like this people rearrange their desks. so that they have to stretch out a bit.

more when they're working instead of you. know working like this over their phone. you know how are you sitting in your car. are you you know really close to the. steering wheel and kind of collapsed or. more open little things like that can. really change the way you feel so I. think it starts with just noticing how. we carry ourselves how we carry. ourselves physically how we speak how we. breathe it's so interesting because I've. got a. a guy friend of mine who is.

um. would be the first to say that he's very. low self-esteem he's very disparaging of. himself so when he walks into a room. he'll. insult himself so he'll say sorry I. smile or sorry he'll apologize for. himself take up very little room sit on. the floor. um all the time and all of these things. which um. we've always kind of noticed it but when. you say all of these these things about. people can Contracting when they're they. feel powerless and taking up less space.

and being sort of self-disparaging I've. always looked at that behavior in him. and thought I I don't I don't know it's. something deeper I don't know I don't. know what we can do to or he can do to. help himself what would you say to. someone like that who's feels like a you. know I mean like I was saying if you. look at the clinical studies the. research is pretty clear that you know. sort of Body Mind feedback. has significant benefits to people who. are feeling because that sounds like.

sort of. unusually low self-esteem right I would. say that's several standard deviations. below the mean if if that's how he. carries himself and speaks about himself. yes so everything you described was I. just saw him. I would say you know and again I'm not a. clinical psychologist but if you look at. the Clinical Psychology literature it. very clearly shows that if you get. people to change the way they carry. themselves they feel better they feel.

different. um I think you know I think to me some. of the most compelling work is the work. on combat veterans with post-traumatic. stress disorder who feel utterly broken. and often feel that they their bodies. betrayed them. and. you know are living at home are unable. to keep a job or you know keep a. relationship going. and the research you know there are.

researchers who have worked with them. and taught them these you know expansive. yoga poses and the effects are dramatic. it it just makes it restores their sense. of personal power their sense of agency. and you know these are self-reports when. I talk about the behaviors they're. self-reports but the researcher who did. a lot of these studies Emma sepula who's. at Yale says that she would hear from. these people a year later saying I no.

longer live at home I have a job I'm so. much happier I'm dating. and it's because of this because of the. expansive yoga poses yeah breathing the. expansive breathing expensive yoga poses. but getting into the practice of doing. that changes their lives. you know I feel strongly that. encouraging people to open up even if. it's when they're alone you know because. sometimes people close up in social.

situations because they have you know. complex PTSD they have experienced. trauma and they've or they've been. assaulted they've been harassed. um and they feel that they're protecting. themselves so I think you start at home. alone you start in PRI the privacy of. your own home where you don't feel. threatened. um and then maybe you build it into. these more social situations so instead. of worrying about the impression you're. making on others you think about the. impression you're making on yourself. first that's what matters how we tell.

our stories to ourselves matters. 100 agree. I've been really compelled by this idea. of what I've been calling the self story. which is kind of what you're describing. there which is. um we all have this kind of story about. who we are and how valuable we are and. what we're good at and what we're. capable of that governs Our Lives yes. and it's written in every small thing we. do that I sat here with um. it's a bit of a different example but I. sat here within a championship boxer and. he was telling me that when he's on the.

treadmill at home it's a very different. example when he's on the treadmill at. home if he's told himself he's going to. do seven miles and he gets to six and a. half miles and gets cramped in his leg. he will limp the remaining half a mile. because he doesn't want to want to let. in his own words the demons in and what. he what he's really saying there is this. idea that even though I'm alone and I'm. No One's Gonna know or see I'm gonna. know and I'm gonna write him to myself. story just a new paragraph about who I. am when things get tough yeah and that. and I I thought so much about this. because. um lying kind of links to this in many. ways because lying is this kind of decay.

of trust but also lying to yourself so. like making a commitment to yourself. that I'm going to do something and. continually breaking the commitment to. yourself even if nobody knows I think is. just so detrimental to our our. perception of ourselves like it's a. downward spiral of the perception of. ourselves absolutely I I I you know we. we own our narratives and. you know there's research even on. looking at older people. um and physical health outcomes I mean.

mortality and and the researchers found. that older people who had more positive. personal narratives about how they got. to where they are in life lived. significantly longer than people who had. these negative narratives even if they. had the same job the same kind of sort. of on the surface they look the same. they controlled for all those. differences and still found that these. the older people with these more. positive personal narratives live longer. again that's correlational but uh it's.

you know it's powerful and one of the. things that happens when people feel. powerless is uh that they are less able. to be authentic right so when they when. they present themselves. say they are in a job interview they. don't come across as authentic as. somebody who feels more powerful and. what's interesting is that the body. language associated with sort of lower. authenticity. is sort of on the same Spectrum with the.

body language that's associated with. outright deception. right so when people are lying to. somebody else I mean knowingly lying. the body language that matters the most. is not eye contact that's what people. focus that they think eye contact is the. most important signal it's not because. people learn very different things in. different households and cultures. personality differences that change how. people. choose to make eye contact in different. situations.

what matters is the asynchrony between. the emotions conveyed with the words and. the emotions conveyed with the body. language so if you're telling a happy. story but you do not look happy your. body language doesn't look happy you. know you don't come across as authentic. if you think about you know being a kid. and maybe you lied to get out of going. to school and you told your parents that. you were sick and you really weren't. you're telling a story that's not true.

that's you know supposed to be sad so. you're trying to get the the emotions. right with your words but your body. language is probably betraying you. um you know because you're actually. excited that you're going to sit at home. on the couch and eat chips and watch. reruns or at night rerun is probably a. word that nobody uses anymore but TV. um uh YouTube Tick Tock whatever so. that that those asynchranies are the. same as the asynchronies that you see.

when people aren't able to be authentic. and of course in those cases that's not. that the intention is not bad they're. not in any way trying to lie to the. other person in a way they're kind of. lying to themselves. um and then that spills over into not. being able to show an honest expression. of themselves to the other. and people and and the funny thing is. that people. don't can't quite articulate so if.

you're an interviewer say in that. situation. it's very hard to articulate what was. off but they know something was off and. they'll say the person didn't seem. authentic but they're not going to say. oh well their words didn't match their. body language yeah they would no because. we you know when people are lying they. can choreograph they can script the. words but it's very hard to choreograph. all the body language to go along with. it it takes up too much cognitive. bandwidth so but it does come across to.

other people I think one of the fun. places to watch for this is on Shark. Tank. um is to to watch the the sort of the. body language of these people pitching. and sometimes you have people who come. across at first as like super confident. but the something about the way they. tell their story does not match their. body language and and the Sharks feel. that you see them you see them almost. cringe there's something off and they.

don't get the money. and then you might have somebody who is. you know let's say uh doesn't have a. business school education uh doesn't. have as much experience but really. believes in what they're doing and and. knows what they're doing you know yes. I'm not saying that you can be. incompetent you have to be at a certain. level of confidence. but they're able to convey their. authentic conviction and passion about. this project about what they're doing.

and the Sharks warm toward them you see. them lean in toward those people and. those people are more likely to be to to. to to to find investors and the thing is. those those signals aren't just. short-term signals those people are also. more likely to stick with it to inspire. other people to uh to be promoted to to. be successful in the long run it's a.

real signal that you're picking up on. that you just can't fake and it really. starts with how you tell your story to. yourself is there a relationship there. as well between our body language and. our attractiveness I does my is there a. certain body language that's associated. with me being attractive if I'm single. and I'm like you know I wanna. I want to increase my chances of finding. a mate yeah it's well it's interesting. because you know people I think there. were skepticism about whether women.

would be punished for. um using more dominant body language and. which I thought was kind of sad because. it just reinforces The Stereotype but. but there's Recent research showing that. first of all they're not they're not and. I'm not talking about super Alpha body. language I'm talking about body language. that's confident and warm right that. that shows I feel good about myself and. I want to be here and I'm interested in. you that body language is is more more.

effective both in the workplace and in. dating situations so people. there was a study that looked at dating. profile pictures on dating apps and both. men and women with more open body. language more confident body language. were seen as more attractive. so I I thought that was that that was. very reassuring and also suggested to me. that we're making some progress if that. was true for for for you know across. genders.

so yeah people want to be with somebody. who is confident but not arrogant who is. comfortable in their skin and your body. language conveys that even in a still. picture it conveys that. wow if I am the type of person that is. feels powerless inside of myself I'm. suffering with a variety of a variety of. different reasons. um I know I know that there's as you've. described there's there's things that I. can do to tell a different story to.

myself publicly and privately is this is. this a form of practice that one has to. do is this like a yes is there a CIS. like a like I go to the gym and I do. some of my favorite work in social. psychology is on what's called. self-affirmation Theory when people. think of self-affirmation they think of. someone looking in a mirror saying I'm. awesome I'm you know I'm the best I'm. gonna win I'm a winner we kind of know. that when we feel bad about ourselves.

saying I'm great doesn't help because. now we just feel like we're lying to. ourselves so we feel bad already and now. we're like well I feel bad and I'm a. liar sounds. exactly so. so. self-affirmation is not that. self-affirmation is this what what these. experiments and there are hundreds of. experiments now in self-affirmation they. have people list the top two or three. values or qualities that make them who.

they are like if I took that value or. quality away from you you would say I'm. just no longer myself like you are just. taking a piece of me away. they then have them kind of rank them. and then take the top one and write a. couple of paragraphs one paragraph about. um you know a time when they expressed. it and another maybe about how it felt. to express it that is it that's the. exercise they then have them do do.

difficult things like take a difficult. math test for example or do a debate you. know do it be in a debate competition or. or. um whatever something challenging that's. unrelated right so if say I said. um. I value music you know I if if you took. the experience of of Music away from me. I just would not feel like myself and. then I I did a math test.

I would do better on the math test. after doing that self-affirmation. exercise I likely I would be likely to. on average people perform better. they also even show decreases in levels. of stress hormones like epinephrine so. the idea is that you're anchoring. yourself in who you are and what you're. doing is reminding yourself that no. matter what happens on that math test. you're still going to be that person. when you walk out and so it that math.

test becomes less important which. ironically or paradoxically makes you do. better on it and so I think that's a. really good start is to just spend time. you know kind of journaling about who. are you what do you value but really. what are those qualities that make you. who you are to you not to others not how. would others describe you what removes. you like what really moves you. it's not so interesting I've never heard.

that before because a lot of the time. you kind of have to have the two camps. where one campus says look in the mirror. and tell yourself a bunch of lies and. there's a whole industry about yeah. I don't like it yeah and then there's. the other cam which is Maybe. uh I don't know if this is the other. Camp necessarily but it's probably the. school of thought I've always lived in. which is you need to go and build. evidence somehow new evidence about. yourself right like counteracting the. evidence that the limiting evidence or. the limiting beliefs that are standing. in your way yeah it's like. self-perception Theory right if you see.

yourself doing it you you become it yeah. and that's just a reflection on the. areas in my life where I was like very. low confidence and how I got from that. place to being higher confidence came. from. straying outside of my comfort zone and. going and doing nothing more. um building evidence that I wasn't going. to die I feel and I that works too I'm. not saying that that self-affirmation is. the only way to do it I I'm much more by. the way in Europe I'm in your Camp I. I get really frustrated with.

um it's all your mindset and you just. got to tell yourself that you you you. can create your life you know like how. yeah you know I just there's so much of. that and I feel like it's so confusing. and discouraging for people because they. watch people who they think are doing. that. in short clips and they're like well. there they did it why can't I do it but. but a lot of those people didn't get to.

where they are by doing that lots of. people helped them get to where they are. yeah. um or you know they did other work but. it's it's just or or maybe they're not. where they aren't even where you believe. they are they're actually really unhappy. and just putting on this Brave face. because simple cells right simple cells. simple cells and you know. um simple inspiration cells. so just just just to close off that. point about because I feel like there's.

going to be people listening right now. um that identify with feeling powerless. in their everyday lives and their. working lives and relationships they uh. they can spot all the symptoms you. described of that sort of like. contracted posture the self-affirmation. piece loved it never heard that before. um. what else to get me out of that. situation I'm thinking in terms of. things that I can like either practice. or you know how do I get from there to. there. well it's funny because I I talk a lot.

about. how tiny tweaks lead to big changes and. I I called you know there was a whole. sort of nudge movement like how do you. change people's behavior through these. little nudges. and I I talk about self-nudging you I'm. not a I'm not a big believer in New. Year's resolutions because they're two. they're grandiose they require a million. steps you're going to fail somewhere. along the way and then quit I believe in. just doing a little bit better the next. time okay so the next time you go into.

uh give a talk for example to anyone if. somebody's afraid of public speaking but. has to to do to lead team meetings for. example. I want you to focus on changing one. thing maybe it's your breathing you. breathe more slowly and deeply maybe you. make sure that you're not wrapping your. hands around your body by holding a. bottle of water or a slide advance or. something something that forces you to.

keep your hands away from your body each. time you get a little bit better and. eventually you find that you're there. and my advisor my grad school advisor. Susan Fisk who I just adore. taught me that because I almost quit. grad school. the night before my first year talk. which is where you present the first. year of research you've done just to the. people in your department I was so. scared. that I called her and I said I'm I can't. do this I'm going to quit and she said.

you're not quitting. she said you're going to do it and even. if it doesn't go perfectly which it. won't. you will have done it and learned. something and gotten a little better and. each time it's going to get better she. said and I want you to give every talk. you're asked to give take every. opportunity that you're that that's. given to you to improve and eventually. you won't notice the moment when you. know suddenly you've gotten there you'll.

just look back and go oh my gosh I'm. here how did I get here through these. tiny nudges so go easy on yourself focus. on only one change in that next. challenge focus on the situations that. you approached with Dread that you. execute with anxiety and distraction and. that you tend to leave with a sense of. regret. each those challenges vary for different. across people you know for some people. it's public speaking for some people. it's giving negative feedback for some.

people it's. um having a difficult discussion with a. family member whatever that challenge is. for you. I want you to do change one little thing. each time you go into it. so that you can in the end approach it. with confidence execute with this calm. confidence and leave it with a sense of. satisfaction that you showed up that you. did what you could do a lot of things. that you can't control. but it's much easier to accept a.

negative outcome if you controlled the. things you could right if you know how. often do people walk away from those. situations and go I feel like they. didn't see who I am. you want to walk away and say they saw. who I am and now they get to make the. decision and I can't control whether. they you know how how they evaluate me. Beyond this I did I did my best that's. where you want to get to I always think. of um confidence and self-esteem and now. powerlessness or powerfulness the.

feeling of it as an upward or a downward. spiral that we're all kind of on like a. self-reinforcing upward or downward. spiral if that kind of I think it is so. if I just to kind of I think that. say something I'm confident at public. speaking on stage for example I will. show up better which means I'm likely to. get a better reaction I'm likely to feel. better after which means next time I. show up better which means and the. Spiral goes up or conversely it can go. the opposite way downwards and the. people that are on that downward so. there's many areas of my life that I.

think come on and up would spiral I'm. like I'm building positive evidence it's. all going well and everyone's black and. then there's some areas of my life that. I might be on a downward spiral um I. know I've got some good friends that I. think are so far down that downward. spiral that even telling them. what your lovely professor she was a my. advice my yeah she was a professor my my. graduate school advisor they're so far. down the bottom of that spiral that they. would have quit yeah a lot of people are. living in a state of survival which I. actually think of like self-preservation.

or defense yes they're like just remove. all chance of threat from my life. and in that situation you never do get. to go upwards on that spiral no oh God I. just so many people are at the bottom of. that spiral in their lives I know and I. don't know what to do about it I I it's. you know it's my responsibility but I. just think no responsibility no it's not. but but also I I do think that more. people are in that state now than they. than that compared to three and a half. years ago how come I do I think the. pandemic really took a toll on people's.

mental sort of. um stability their their sense of self. and I think we're going to be grappling. with that for quite a while I mean. people who we why did it why did it have. that impact because we are wired to deal. with a crisis that lasts. like a couple months not one that lasts. three years and not one that is yanking.

us around back and forth like oh we're. emerging oh Delta we're emerging Omicron. you know like it was just this. constant back and forth and we so we. were living in this liminal state where. we had one foot on the safe side and one. foot on the threatened side we get. through crises using what's called surge. capacity which is you know it's called a. network of physical and and. Psychological Resources that help us. survive but that runs out pretty quickly.

and a lot of people say for the first. two months of the pandemic they felt. very productive that was Surge capacity. and it's studied in the context often of. um of of combat soldiers so like the. first battle it's it's the emergency. phase and they they are focused the goal. is clear it's shared teams operate at. their best good leaders operated their. best then they go into this regression. in between where they don't know what's.

going to happen next they lose a sense. of purpose they become disconnected from. each other they withdraw then they're. back in battle in that's how this is. gone it's going to take a little while. to put the pieces back together again. but I think I think that we we have to. have some Grace. and I mean toward each other with each. other with ourselves. I don't think it's going to be fixed by. if we're too hard ourselves I think we. do have to let ourselves off the hook a.

bit and go oh we've never lived through. something like this earlier and we were. talking about the things that make you. feel powerless in your body language and. the way you conduct yourselves and all. these things the things that make. someone look and feel powerful. um. I imagine it's the opposite in many. respects but specifically if I if I want. to and I want to because I really want. to leave people with actionable things. that they can they can do in their lives. if I want to. um. become a better speaker present myself.

better show up better for my employees. um or be a better podcast host and I. think about this people I've never said. this before people I spend so long. thinking about how I'm sitting when I'm. speaking to someone really yeah because. because when I'm not thinking I might. like fall into a certain posture I was. I've even been thinking about these. bloody arms on this chair. sometimes I'm like this and this is my. favorite situation to be in so like my. body's open right and then sometimes I. go like this and sometimes I crunch over. into a ball and stuff yeah and when I'm. having these kind of conversations with.

people I think that the best approach to. take is to be open with my body language. yes and then hopefully they'll open up. with me yeah you know that's exactly. right so I think. to really simplify it and again as I. said I don't love like choreographing. but the body language that is I think. the the most uh effective is to be open. to be kind of leaning forward you know. Palms up not wrapping yourself up not. the whole time yeah but what what you.

want to be showing is I'm comfortable. and relaxed with you I'm interested in. you yeah and so I think that's that's. the posture that you want to take on and. people will mirror that one thing that. people in general people mirror each. other's body language right that's a way. that we sync up but there's one. exception and that's when there's a. power differential so if a powerful. person is interacting with somebody. that's clearly less powerful the. powerful person tends to become more.

dominant in their body language and the. powerless person becomes more powerless. and we call that complementarity so I. think it's very important for people in. leadership positions to be aware that. when one of their you know employees. comes to talk to them they're probably a. little nervous and. to be very mindful of their body. language because you don't you don't. want them to shut down you want them to. feel comfortable and tell you what's. going on share their interests or their.

problem or their challenge. penguin arms I never had that expression. until chapter nine of your book what's. penguin arms it's when people people. don't know what to do with their head a. lot of people don't know what to do with. their hands when they're speaking and so. they kind of like pin. they pin their wrist to their like. around their hips and their hands kind. of stick out. oh okay you're gonna look like a penguin. yeah it's it's really common for people. who are afraid of public speaking you'll.

like they're like kind of moving their. hands but they're afraid to move their. arms away from their body besides. penguin arms let me just get I've got. this correctly is this penguin arms you. mean this yeah but you're talking I'm. like. yeah exactly that's penguin arms okay. and it's again because I'm I'm. I mean one of the this correlation. between how much space you take up and. how powerful you feel right again that's. me trying to take up less as little as. space as possible right and I'm. signaling so I'm speaking to you by. doing that even though regardless of.

what my mouth is saying and if I'm like. this. yes I'm saying you're sending a. completely different message exactly and. people are remember the audience like. even a whole audience is responding to. you so if there's this whole. self-reinforce there's reinforcement. between you and the audience and within. the self so if you're acting that way. they might be mirroring you or feeling. kind of uncomfortable because you're. feeling anxious but you can make the. audience feel uncomfortable because. you're so uncomfortable for sure and.

then and then you read that and you feel. more uncomfortable so it becomes you. know kind of re reinforced through the. interaction. this is this. interesting thing that happens to me. once in a while where I'll be speaking. to someone and it's usually someone I'm. gonna be honest right so it's usually. someone where. there's a lot of things about them but I. haven't told them. and I find it hard to hold eye contact. with them. and I notice this about myself to. certain people in my life where there's. like unaddressed things that haven't.

fully spoken about and when I speak to. them I tend to not look at them and I. tend to just like be looking away or. looking down and I I will occasionally. glance over and look at them but this. broader point about eye contact and you. mentioned it briefly earlier on. what significance does it have in our. Communications and because I I find it. the hardest thing I can kind of I think. I can feign the body language I wish I. could make that I I can't give you a. simple answer and I that because there. are so many cultural differences oh.

really in in when you make eye contact. so kids learn such different rules about. making eye contact. UM you know a lot of kids are taught you. don't make eye contact with an authority. figure right so and then they're seen as. lying because they're not making eye. contact uh you know um but but but. seeing it as rude to make eye contact it. means you know in a lot of East Asian. cultures eye contact you you don't hold. eye contact for as long it's seen this. very aggressive.

um. in the U.S you can hold eye contact for. quite a while before people feel. uncomfortable. but it's you know it so yeah it's I. think it's one of the more culturally. constrained Expressions what am I in. primates I mean if I've watched all. these primate documentaries and it's. often the case that when primates kind. of look at each other for too long it. can it's often aggressive aggressive. yeah I I don't I and again I I would. have to defer to something like Bob. sapolski on that one but I think um I I.

think that in non-human primates it you. know great apes it is it is a sign of. aggression. it is like bring it on yeah. and in certain contexts. yeah again it's so contextual and. cultural because as we were saying. before we start recording in the US if. someone stares at me in a lift I would. imagine that they're about to say hello. whereas in I don't know a rough part of. the UK. if someone stares at me I would check. where my wallet and my keys are and.

assume that we had there's going to be a. problem yeah so yeah yeah I mean and. there are differences cultural. differences within the U.S too is it. possible to learn how to read people. better in terms of their body language. is that also something you can play oh. for sure I just think there's some. really great books like I I love Joe. Navarro's work he's a former FBI agent. he has a lot of images he really he's. not a researcher but grounds in the. research and has a lot of personal. experience the book that I love is is.

what everybody is saying. um by Joe Navarro so I would recommend. that as a great way to start I think. there are some that are sort of like. more like. how to pick up women yeah yeah and I. don't like those this is just really. understanding people and what's. happening in an interaction I'm gonna. confess that when I was 18 I read one. such book about pickup artistry. and um it actually it actually was very. useful.

had this conversation with my husband. it's so funny and. it's like the one thing he was like I. did read that oh yeah I mean yeah so it. was it was useful because I love. psychology I studied psychology at in in. school as well and um I chose that for. one of my a levels and it was useful. from that perspective I mean it's. probably why I do this now I was so. compelled to understand why humans do. what they do then I read this book which. I didn't intend to buy I'm gonna be. honest okay I've told the truth the. whole time so believe me when I say I. didn't intend to buy this book about. pickup Artistry my older brother ordered.

it for home in the southwest of the UK. when he'd gone he put the wrong address. in when he was at University so it came. home and he goes I'll just keep it so I. open it and I opened up my bedroom floor. and I did not move until I'd finished. the entire book the first book where. from the first page till the last I. didn't move and it fascinated me because. it was just it was like someone turned. the lights on to this whole other. language that I'd been communicating my. whole life without knowing someone one. of the really things I always talk about. with my friends is this idea of pecking. which is this kind of invasion of. personal space that happens when you're.

when you meet someone you're attracted. to yeah the music style out you lean. into their personal space. and how that signals like low value then. they lean out. um but all those things I found oh geez. I am the worst if I'm in a restaurant. and I see it a first date yeah. it is it can be so I want to slip a. napkin to the woman sometimes and like. like the guy will get up to go to the. bathroom and she is like you I'm I feel.

like slipping a napkin and saying run. you know like it's just you can it's so. clear so quickly how it's going what are. the signs they are talking too much and. not asking questions oh my god um I mean. that that's I would say the most common. and and believing that they're very very. interesting. they are yeah so interesting. um and and it is leaning in and taking. into too much taking up too much space.

and you can see the and I'm sorry I'm. talking about straight couples and so. because I I don't know enough about. um. other dyads but I mean in this in the. context of body language but. you see the woman clearly tensing up. she's making herself smaller to get away. she may not be literally leaning away. she's closing herself up and she women. were people in that situation when they.

want to get away they often do these lip. presses like this. um and so you start to see the lip. presses. and then making themselves smaller and. you know and and leaning right in fact. um we were watching a TV show last night. that might be called The Bachelorette. this happened and the the guy was. holding her The Bachelorette like. hugging her. and like she wasn't.

forcefully lean away but I was like oh. it's too close she really does not like. that but she was being very polite it. was like painful to watch so in real. life well I've had to bite my tongue at. times what's the opposite of that then. when you look over in a restaurant. because me and my girlfriend do this I. think everybody does this well not. everybody clearly but just weirdos like. us that are into psychology who look. over another couple and go they're. getting on really really great they're. into each other this is not because me. and my girlfriend we go to restaurants. we always think like is this a first.

date how long have they been together. are they married are they into each. other obviously the really bad examples. is when they're both leaning out on. their phones yes and I'm like oh my God. yeah so not picking up their phones. leaning in toward each other yeah um. yeah good eye contact about balance and. in conversation expressions of genuine. curiosity where you can kind of see. their face light up when they hear the. person the other person say something. like they're really intrigued the other.

one always one of them gets up to go to. the bathroom yeah and to me the the tell. is what does the other person do when. that person this makes me look like I'm. not watching you all on your dates I. swear you learn so am I. we both are and that's fine. but. when the other person goes to the. bathroom if the ones that at the table. is like you can tell their smile like. they can't stop smiling.

um and maybe they're texting somebody. and they're but their cheeks like almost. you can tell her cheeks almost hurt from. smiling they're it's like they're. letting the they're so excited they. don't want to act over the top with the. person but when the person steps away. they allow themselves to feel that joy. that to me is the talent that's exciting. you're like oh that's so nice Something. Beautiful is happening and the little. grooming signals as well like when you. know they you know they might yeah that. they smell well and things like right.

I guess the I guess the last piece is. about. being able to fake body language. can people do that can we fake it I mean. you can try is it effective I usually. not it because you get those. asynchranies right so it's too much. think think about all of the non-verbal. challenge channels you've got vocal cue. they call it the paralinguistic cues. like tone of voice range of voice how.

quickly or slowly you speak you've got. your your fingers your hands your arms. there's too much. to do to fake it for you know uh. and and to make it consistent with what. you're saying probably you know the. greatest actors can. pretty well. but I mean to me it's just it's it's so. likely to fail that it's not even worth. trying and I I don't think it's honest I.

super interesting for me because between. the age of I'm gonna say 14 and. let's go for 21. I was in my view I. think I was kind of rejected by every. um woman that I pursued. and I think I was inherently low value. and didn't realize it so when I read. these books about pickup Artistry and. all this stuff I read all this work I. tried to do what the book said and it. was unsuccessful like fundamentally. unsuccessful my life changed when I. actually changed like when my actual.

opinion of myself changed and I was. saying this to my friend the other day. who's who's going through a bit of a. process where. um they're struggling with that same. thing I said you know what I wasn't able. to lie to myself I tried waiting longer. to text back I tried this I tried all of. these things and my conclusion from that. chapter of my life is there's a thousand. little things that ways we communicate. it's exactly what you just said I said. to my friend the other day there's a. thousand ways we can communicate and you. might think you can control three or. four of them but as humans that have. evolved over those 200 000 years were so.

good at knowing what someone really. thinks and feels. and so I guess my question here is like. I came to the conclusion and then this. was when I was giving my friends some. advice through the days you can't fake. it you have to actually go and change. yourself story like you can know the. tips and tricks but that wasn't enough. for me. to actually get the you know. and it was honestly the thing that. changed in my life was when my opinion. of myself changed right and it's and I. it sounds so weird to say but I'm sure. nobody's listening. um the profunda the profundity of the.

change I just can't I can't describe it. not not even in the relationship being. able to attract people but just in every. context like I don't know what changed I. don't know what I did all I know is that. something deep within me my story of who. I am changed and that means that when I. show up in places I stand differently. yeah your non-verbal sort of experts. talk about Inside Out change yeah right. as opposed to outside in yeah. um because people have clicked this. video right now click this podcast. because they went outside in chain I.

know they do I know and it's like I. always feel like look I'm a body. language person but that doesn't mean. I'm going to give you a hat full of. tricks. it just doesn't because it's not going. to work that wouldn't be right and it's. funny too because the quote that I'm. best known for is fake it till you. become it and. what I mean by that it is fake it till. you make it to me has always meant. pretend that you know things you don't. know for pretend that you are a person.

that you're not until you get the job. but what do you do then you keep faking. it. so fake it till you make it is fooling. other people. fake it till you become it is expand. allow yourself to feel powerful enough. to really understand who you are to know. what your story is to be to be more. focused on the impression you're making. on yourself than on others. um to grow to be less afraid of these. challenges.

and eventually. you know maybe you know standing in. those big positions. alone feels a little awkward at first. and you're faking it but eventually you. become that person and you know that's. what happened with my student who I talk. about in the Ted Talk who had not. participated at all the whole semester. and I I was gonna have to fail her and I. said you have to participate. and she finally raised her hand on the. last class I said I'll call on you and.

first of all her comment was amazing and. people's head spun like they hadn't. noticed her but she continued to use. these ideas and she came back to me. later like six months or a year later. and she said she said to me I want you. to know I'm so happy now because she had. come into my office and said I feel like. an imposter I don't belong here I'm from. this small town I was like so am I if I. belong here you do. she came back to me after graduating and. finding and actually getting into.

education and not business and she said. those things that we talked about I did. and I realized I wasn't faking it till I. made it I was faking it till I became it. and now I'm the person that I wanted to. be. that makes so much sense. so expand yourself. so that you can get the evidence you. need to become the thing that you. exactly our parents and grandparents. told us to sit up straight as a show of. respect to others and kids hate that.

it's. kids you know to teach kids to sit up. straight as a show of respect to. themselves. and that allows you to be more open to. to be less defensive to allow the truth. of who you are in. it's hard to confront ourselves. it takes courage. so by adopting those powerful postures.

by feeling personally powerful you are. generating the courage to confront. yourself to know yourself to introduce. yourself to yourself. ladies and gentlemen today is a very big. day for me because the Diary of a CEO. book is finally out it's been published. today the 33 laws of business and life. I've spent many years writing this book. but I've spent even longer about a. decade and a half compiling the. information that exists in this book if.

you are somebody that has any intent at. some point in your life of building. something whether it's building a great. team at work whether it's a football. team a netball team a business an. organization a charity anything at all. that you want to build that's going to. require you to understand people. understand how to tell great stories and. maybe most importantly of all understand. yourself then I believe this book is a. must read and you know what I've written. a book before. this is my second book but this is the. one this is the book that will give you.

the most value there's a link right now. in the description below and for 30. people that order the book. and post it on their social media and. tag me you'll be getting a very special. Gold version of the book. please read it then please message me on. every social media platform and let me. know what you think. thank you a quick word on huel as you. know they're a sponsor of this podcast. and I'm an investor in the company one. of the things I've never really. explained is how I came to have a. relationship with huel one day in the. office many years ago a guy walked past.

called Michael and he was wearing a. heeled t-shirt and I was really. compelled by the logo I just thought. from a design aesthetic point of view it. was really interesting and I asked him. what that word meant and why he was. wearing that T-shirt and he said it's. this brand called heal and they make. food that is nutritionally complete and. very very convenient and has the planet. in mind and he the next day dropped off. a little bottle of fuel on my desk and. from that day onwards I completely got. it because I'm someone that cares. tremendously about having a. nutritionally complete diet but.

sometimes because of the way my life is. that falls by the wayside so if there. was a really convenient reliable. trustworthy way for me to be. nutritionally complete in an affordable. way I was all ears especially if it's a. way that is conscious of the planet give. it a chance give it a shot let me know. what you think. as I've read through your story I came. across this moment where there was some. academic bullying in your life and this. appeared to me to be the a real pivotal.

um hurtful chapter of your life it's now. the basis for. some of the work that you're doing and. some of the things you're writing about. what what do I need to know about what. happened there to understand the lessons. that you've taken from that. um chapter. I I would rather endure any physical. pain than go through that and I have. interviewed I mean it went on for years. I became.

just fair game it was because the. bullies had been so successfully. diminished demeaned stigmatized me. that anyone else who felt the need to. act out could act out against me it was. okay so. the mountain of you know social media. um uh evidence of of this bullying is. overwhelming and I can't even look.

through it I have to have someone else. sort through that I am not talking about. Anonymous trolls this was other. academics. this was about me it was personal they. they they're they were not. hiding behind anonymity every person. I've interviewed for this book has been. been bullied every adult has said. it's the worst thing that ever happened. to me. and. I felt like I was dying or I wanted to.

die. for a long time because it is social. death it is social death and without. community. we we are we are in a bad place I mean. we we do need each other. the facts of my life were stolen from me. my story was Rewritten so much so that I. could not do an interview without having. to correct. all kinds of disinformation about me. right so the whole you know telling the.

way you tell your story to yourself. matters peace wow that was hard I had to. keep doing that to survive it because. other people were telling a story that. was a lie and that was deeply hurting me. I mean emotionally professionally. um hurting my family I mean it was. terrible I was. I I almost died I almost decided to die.

and. um. and that's very common for people who. are bullied. and. I'm not through it it's those I mean I'm. I'm through the worst of it but it still. it still comes up and and and there are. there are there's disinformation in news. articles that that these bullies sort of. got out there. that will always circulate I can never I.

can't get rid of all of that right it. will pop up every once in a while and. people go but yeah but I heard you did. this and you're like no. that's incorrect. um and so every time that pops up. it's it's just like a dagger again it it. is an absolute theft of your life it is. it is. absolutely. it is absolutely devastating.

and in the workplace it's remarkably. common. and. the estimates by people who study. workplace bullying are that. oh more than 90 of people who become. targets of workplace bullying. dis disappear from that job and when I. say disappear I mean they're either. fired because the bully flips it around. and they're seen as the difficult person.

or their move to a different department. or they quit because they can't endure. it. or they die of a stress related illness. or they take their own lives. um. suicide rates are very high for for. adults for children and adult bullying. targets. if I was in your household around that. time what would I have seen and I asked. that question because. people never get to see that right they. get to see either silence or they might. get to see a statement but.

um. you know what I'm thinking right now is. that my boys are going to hear this and. they're gonna be laughing and they're. gonna be they're gonna be saying that. I'm exaggerating you know like but who. cares why if they say that but I it's. still like I'm so afraid of them still.

um. I was you know Raising a Son who is just. a lovely remarkable person I'm like. I can't believe that he. grew up to be such a wonderful person. because for so much of his teenage life. I was going through this and it was. so hard to be present but I had to be.

like I need. there was this constant conflict that I. had how much do I tell him about. um. how much do I Shield him from it can I. Shield him from it because. you know my God my husband who. was just like wanted so desperately to.

fix it for me and he he's a scientist. and he understood very well the. statistical arguments as better than. than most people in my field do and he. would engage with these bullies and that. would escalate he was he was for sure. traumatized by it. um. I was just curled up in a ball and then. amazingly I was still able to go out and. speak and for that hour. I was safe.

and and then I would I would hide again. and. I was just so afraid. uh. I just felt like I was dying I would. just I think almost every day I said I. feel like I'm dying. uh it was it was I. it just the darkest of dark. um. they. like I'm grieving.

still the loss. of. again the facts of my life. and a future that I thought I was going. to have even though. I and this is that whole Silver Lining. thing I'm actually happier now. in the life that I'm in. I had to leave my job I wasn't forced. out at all and in fact I want to be. clear because this isn't the bullies. love to say that I was denied tenure I.

was not denied tenure I chose to leave. my Dean was incredibly supportive of me. I could not live in that toxic house. anymore it was filled with fumes it was. I I I would have died if I had stayed so. in Academia period you left your job yes. my my full-time you know tenure track. position and that's after I had been. promoted twice like I had worked so hard. to get there.

I had an excellent record of research. um. I wanted to stay there I I wanted to. continue to do work around sexism and. racism I. I thought maybe I would eventually get. into the administration I wanted to like. that was the life that I thought I. hadn't and. they made it impossible for me to stay. yes it was my choice and no it wasn't my.

choice. um they sold my future. now I have a different one maybe that's. maybe that's better but it doesn't take. away the pain of that loss it's sort of. like. it's like. losing a spouse a spouse dying Young. and then you get remarried a few years. later and you're happy in your new. marriage and maybe you're even happier. but you'll never stop grieving.

the loss of that first person right it's. that's how this feels. um. and that's why it's taking me like four. years to write this book. because it's a lot it's a it's a lot to. tell my own story I'm scared and it's a. lot to. hold other people's stories because I. know how they feel I know how hard it is. I mean. I've interviewed people whose adult. children have taken their own lives.

because they were so badly bullied in. the workplace. it was it was just torture. my. collaborators were tortured. and. lost so much. fighting this. disinformation and just this this.

meanness. my son in the last six months has had. two friends who were taking psychology. courses. learn this disinformation about me in. their psychology courses because again. it just sort of lives on and so now he's. coming going. I don't understand. can I ask you everyone's question here. because I. did lots of research on you didn't. really come across any of that. it's amazing I didn't so I don't know.

the details of it um what I what I've. have inferred from what you're saying is. that people try to discredit you yes and. your intentions yes is that accurate yes. okay so they try to discredit you me my. intentions my my actions. um. and to prevent me from. doing more work doing more work right. makes sense yes. what do you think their motivations were. I can tell you that.

a small percentage of people I believe. are what I call primary bullies like. they are the ones who get the ball. rolling. if they're alone and I you know we. chatted about this earlier but if. they're alone they're just yeah. but when they recruit people then they. become bullies. and. they tend to be repeat offenders. what they want is status and recognition.

they feel that they have not gotten as. much as they deserve. and they resent people who they perceive. as getting more than they deserved. and so when they perceive that. they'll start to go after that person in. little ways and I call that the bully. test the bullies testing to see if. people will. allow that to happen and if people don't.

push back and this is where bystanders. could get involved right away and say. that's not okay. I so wish more people had done that in. my case. then they escalate very quickly and they. are basically they are gaining status by. taking away your status. it's I don't think it's about. power as much as it is about status. there are people who are very powerful. but still feel like they're not getting.

the recognition and status that they. deserve and their bullies it is. motivated I believe in general again I. don't know what motivated my bullies by. a need for status. and. one of the commonalities across bullies. is that they tend to have a scarcity. mindset. they see the world as everything is zero. sum everything's affixed buy and that.

means if if somebody else is getting. status or success it's somehow taking. away from their from them. you know Einstein once said the most. important question that you'll answer. for yourself. is sort of is the universe fundamentally. hostile or friendly. because the way you answer that will. affect the way you do your work. and how you interact with people and. what what you aspire to.

these are people who would say the world. is fundamentally hostile. the bullies are yes. and that's the commonality across. bullies I think there are some myths. about bullies like the idea that bullied. people become bullies. some do. and most don't in fact a lot of the. people who I call bravehearts who stand. up against bullies were bullied. so it's it's not that bullied people.

become bullies it's not that you know. you know it's not that they're they have. such low self-esteem and they can't. sleep at night they actually they can. sleep at night they're okay with what. they're doing they think they're right. um yeah. but we there are way there's so many. ways and I I this is maybe another. conversation for next year. there's so many opportunities for. bystanders to get involved early so that.

it doesn't escalate to this full-blown. bullying campaign because once you're. there the person is is is is is is. socially killed. do you think this is an inevitable. byproduct of being successful. because you talk those primary bullies. they see status as the the game so you. become really successful in your. industry you get a TED Talk which. becomes one of the most watched ever you. know your podcast becomes big those. Primary people are going to say. he or she is getting too much credit.

what can I do to tear them down give me. a little bit of credit take back some of. that zero some status. um so you know so is it a inevitable. what do they call it um occupational. hazardous yeah so I don't think I think. it's common. for you for successful people to have. haters. that doesn't always turn into bullying. also. the people who tend to be targets.

tend to be people who have okay so if. you if you think about the kind of the. workplace or the profession and then. the rest of the world. they have lower status in their. profession than they do with the rest of. the world. and so I was a junior researcher I. wasn't you know supposed to get this. much attention and. I just gave a TED talk like that you.

know I. I wasn't going out looking for status. that's what happened it happened to go. viral but the targets tend to be people. who are below the average on status in. with with the in-group and then cross. what some researchers have called the. line of resentment and then they become. targets or they're viable targets they. don't necessarily become targets but. they're viable targets so people who. have very high status in inside and get.

high status outside they're much less. likely to be bullied. interesting so to sort of clarify that. in words that I just make sure I. understand if I am. in a school yeah and I am maybe in the. lower. quartile of popularity I'm not so. popular but then something happens which. means outside of school I become super. famous yes you know I blow up in the. news outside of school and everyone's.

talking about me and they love me the. people in school yeah there's going to. be a group of people in school that go. we need to Reign this guy back in. there's going to be a couple of people. and you hear those stories and you've. interviewed a lot of celebrities and you. know when you talk to celebrities like. people who who got famous as kids. a lot of them were bullied and people. are shocked they're like but you but. everyone else loved you yeah yeah but. that's exactly. why they got bullied in their schools. yeah because they weren't supposed to.

succeed I I've heard this story many. times on this podcast Amy I. you know like as in this someone doing. well. um a group of people thinking that. they've punched too far above their way. yep and then exactly trying to tear them. back down with disinformation. misinformation whatever it's so common. um. are you optimistic that it can change. honestly really yes I think it's human. well I would like to see it change but I. part of me goes I think this is just. humans yeah but but this is you know.

what we if so if we said that about. racism and misogyny and ageism it's just. human nature people would go that's not. okay like a lot of people would object. on that statement and say yes we can do. better but no I absolutely believe that. if people can understand the anatomy of. bullying how it works and what it looks. like in the beginning what are the early. signs what are the little things they. can do to be socially Brave. and collectively turn things around.

I think that that that we will see. change in in workplaces first the. psychological. research shows that we can turn this. around. I think you're right actually. thank you no I do think you're right. just because because when you make the. similarity between things like racism. and sexism it's it's really really about. cultural acceptance isn't it whether we. whether we someone performs that. behavior whether we go that's that's. fine whether we clap whether we go you.

know we're going to reject you if you do. that again exactly. um and we're all governed by incentives. in this Society aren't we so it's just. about an incentive disincentive yes. interesting. what's the most important thing that we. haven't talked about that maybe we. should have. yeah I mean we've talked a lot about. trust but I guess. so so I guess I just want to summarize. sort of all of that talk about trust. it just that. you know a lot of people in the business.

World make the mistake of thinking that. they gotta go in and be the smartest. person in the room. so they've got to show confidence. and they do that at the expense of. demonstrating their trustworthiness. and and if you do not establish earn. trust build trust. you you have no medium through which. your ideas can travel so trust is the. conduit of influence it's not a soft. idea it's a true idea this is just the. way people are if you come in and and.

you start talking at them and you. haven't listened to them you don't know. what they're about they don't feel like. you care it doesn't matter if you have. the best idea in the world you're. throwing it against a brick wall you. know you have got to earn an established. trust. in order to influence people. and how do you establish trust not. thinking that you have to take the floor. first so a lot of people feel that. especially in business settings they. like a negotiation they feel like.

they've got to drop the anchor they have. to talk first. when in reality. it's. often much more effective to ask. questions and learn about the other. person you're showing first that I. you're interested that you understand. them and you're actually gaining. information right so so that you when. you respond you're not giving up power. at all you're building trust and. learning and and then you when you when.

you respond. they trust that your response is based. on. you actually knowing them right so they. feel seen they they've been seen so. that's I think you know there are so. many things but I I that that's one that. I think is is really effective. we have a closing tradition on this. podcast where the Alaska leaves a. question for the next guest not knowing. who they're going to leave the question. for. and the question left for you is. if we discovered a cure for sadness.

such that we would never need ex need. experience it again. would you support. the development of that cure. I'm on the. oh geez I I feel like I'm gonna get. myself in trouble but. you know I referred to Susan Kane. earlier her book quiet her new book is.

called Bittersweet and it is about. allowing ourselves to feel sadness to. grieve that it is in many ways healing I. mean why do we listen to sad songs it we. get some pleasure from it we heal from. it so I I'm gonna have to say I I'm. going for the Bittersweet and not the No. No sadness. imagine a world without sadness I don't. think that would be a nice world I think. sadness is like hot and cold and sad and.

happy I don't think you have one without. the other unfortunately I don't think so. either and it's in a signal right it's a. human signal that our bodies send us to. tell us it's information yeah process. loss and things like that yes I. completely agree with you and to feel. empathy and compassion and want to help. others so. thank you so much thank you thank you so. much it was delightful really really. delightful I like so much and um in the. process of reading your work and. watching your videos I learned an. incredible amount and um. you've really helped me I've had so many.

little personal epiphanies as we've been. speaking. so many of them and I'm actually really. really excited about your upcoming book. about bullying and bystanders because. there's not really a big conversation. happening but if there was ever a time. for this conversation in the world we. live in in these like. pants or culture mobs and the Twitter. sphere and all of this stuff it's a big. conversation in the UK at this exact. moment for a variety of reasons there's. been a big couple of big moments in the. UK. um it's it's it's it's now is the time. to have a really like professional.

nuanced conversation about it yes and to. see if there is a way yes to have a. language so we can actually talk about. it yeah I would love to speak to you. again when that become when that book. comes out wonderful to do but thank you. so much for all of your time today it's. been really really fascinating really. opening conversation and you know what I. I think you're a wonderful human being I. think you're a warm competent which is. what I aspire to be one day thank you I. think you're wonderful too thank you so.

much Amy means a lot to me thank you. thank you. [Music]. oh. [Music]. foreign. [Music]. you got to the end of this podcast. whenever someone gets to the end of this. podcast I feel like I owe them a greater.

debt of gratitude because that means you. listen to the whole thing and hopefully. that suggests that you enjoyed it if you. are at the end and you enjoyed this. podcast could you do me a little bit of. a favor and hit that subscribe button. that's one of the clearest indicators we. have that this episode was a good. episode and we look at that on all of. the episodes to see which episodes. generated the most subscribers. thank you so much and I'll see you again. next time.