Spotify Founder: How A 23 Year Old Introvert Built A $31 Billion Business!

I'm an introvert not amazing. academically didn't feel like it. belonged anywhere average at best and. yet you created Spotify yeah Daniel P. Spotify founder in CUO he's not only. saved the music industry he's created a. $50 billion company and he himself is. worth more than4 billion I flun high. school and started on my first company. and that later got acquired you retired. at 23 yeah first month was fun. nightclubs sports car 20 or 30 girls. throwing around money 6 months in.

realized that this thing I thought I. wanted I just didn't want at all and I. was just empty just thinking am I ever. going to get out of this depression and. what to do in life what if you can work. on something you actually care about. what would you pick music but the. industry is going down the drain I. honestly did not think we would succeed. but if we succeed I knew it was going to. be a big thing Spotify is here a. One-Stop shop for music you use Spotify. I love it I read the journey to that. success had multiple near-death.

experiences it was awful ran out of. money I lost all of the hair gained £30. and the problem was I modeled myself on. the Mark Zuckerberg of the world to run. every meeting and be the best product. person and it just wasn't me share the. burden with someone it is so important. we tend to believe the world is more. logical than what it is but it's based. on relationships be the easiest person. to deal with and you'd be surprised how. many problems it solves one of those. problems was. Apple what's your opinion on Apple.

[Music]. Daniel what is the most important. context that I need to know about you to. understand the man that's sit in front. of me today and when I ask about context. I want to go right back to where you. come from and that earliest environment. that I almost I almost see it like an. oven I see our early as context as like. an oven that baked us into who we are. today what is that context I'm a product.

of a very very strong single mom um a. woman that probably had a ship on her. shoulder um um against her sibling her. brother older brother who kind of said. you can't do this you can't raise uh a. child to be productive um and I think uh. she kind of uh just well hellbent on. making a Point uh of showing that you.

know um I was going to be successful in. her definition and successful meant uh. well educated well read uh and be able. to handle almost U anything thrown at me. and just to give you an example of that. while I was brought up in the suburb of. Stockholm very much a workingclass rough. neighborhood one of the big things that. my mother did was she had me um doing a.

pentathlon and the pentathlon was like. the classic pentathlon so that means. fencing horseback riding uh shooting uh. running and swimming um doesn't sound. like what someone basically from the. projects in in Stockholm uh would do uh. but she thought that would be a good. sort of uh wide education for me um and. and pretty much my entire life has been. around that I I was kind of clumsy as a. kid um my my fine motor skills was.

pretty good my rough motor skills wasn't. very good so she enrolled me in like an. all female gymnastics group um you know. I'm an introvert so she enrolled me in a. theater group um to have me you know. learn um how um to express myself uh and. and so um an Eclectic childhood um but. one where she heavily influenced me uh.

uh brought me along in almost every. context with adults uh with professors. like at a very early age and just had me. sit sit along uh or uh with just the. person from next door uh who was. struggling uh getting to the next. paycheck and and I really saw all of. those contracts in in life from a very. young age did she have any desire for. you to become any specific thing cuz uh. I I'm I'm I'm honestly not sure but I.

think she wanted me to be broad um just. in general um so um and and I I think in. many families you kind of have this. maybe educational pressure where you. have to be a doctor you have to be a. lawyer like none of that mattered to my. mom um the only thing that mattered and. she kept repeating us was that you need. to become a good human being um and for. her um if I wanted to study sure um she. thought education mattered and was. important um but um not like in other.

families and the only thing in fact um. you know probably influenced Spotify. later on was um I very much come from a. music family my my grandfather was an. opera singer my grandmother was um an. actress in theater but also um jazz. pianist so um like music education was. weirdly enough like the the premier. education that was focused on for me and. then all the other stuff she was. basically only important that I showed.

effort um I I had a pretty easy time in. school and so uh she constantly kept. pushing me because she felt that I. wasn't uh I wasn't making enough of an. effort uh no matter what so it wasn't. about the grade I could come home with a. straight A uh she would still be like. well did you really make an effort I. don't think so and um and um and and so. for her it was kind of always that thing. about like just pushing and making the.

real effort so she cared more about less. about the outcome and more about how. much of your potential you were. realizing yeah very much. so so on school then you you referenced. that she kind of identified you were an. introvert early on but then I think you. said you had a good you had an easy time. in school typically people that are. introverted that are um an only child at. the time that they go off to. school often they struggle a little bit. Yeah because you know finding friends.

and fitting into social groups and I. read somewhere else that you don't love. small talk you tend to gravitate towards. the people that you know yeah what would. school like for someone for a kid like. that well I I think you know um I think. there are many types of introverts let's. begin with that and I can switch it on. when I have to uh and certainly I think. the theater helped me um you know I can. be very project a lot of things if I'd. like to uh and and be a force of nature. but it doesn't come easy that requires.

tons of energy whereas others get energy. from like the room and they're like very. excited it's just not me um for me. anything with anyone I'm not comfortable. with is really taking a lot of energy um. um but but I think the easy time in. school was just uh I loved learning I've. always loved learning so um you know put. be putting in an environment where. you're constantly being forced to learn. new things wasn't a very hard thing for.

me and um I have a very good um I used. to have a very good memory I don't have. it anymore but I was able to memorize. very easily the concepts and the things. that we talked about in school and so um. I think in that end it was very easy for. me and then again because my mother. tried to make me very broad um the. positive and the negative of that aspect. is I could kind of be in any social. group I could be with the athletes I was. n the best athlete by any stretch of the.

imagination but it worked uh I can be in. the musicians group as well with any of. the people who were really good at Arts. um and I you know I probably wasn't the. best at any of that stuff either but it. was pretty decent but I could also be in. the math group I probably wasn't the. best of math but I was pretty decent and. um that to be honest is kind of the. Story of My Life um you can kind of plug. me in anywhere I won't excel at.

practically anything but I'll hold my. fort and that's I think both a blessing. and a curse the blessing is in is that. it's very easy for people to for me to. be able to relate to other people enough. where I'm accepted in the group but it's. hard in the sense the downside with that. is that I never really belong anywhere. mhm because I'm not that one-sided.

um as an individual you know I'm not an. artist I'm not a. technologist um I'm not a business. person I'm all of that and probably a. few other things as well um and and you. can see that very clearly with my friend. group too you'll have artists on the one. side and you have entrepreneurs on the. other end and it's very hard for them to. speak to each other most times but I. love it I love um seeing very creative. people I love uh you know business.

people and scientists mixed together. whereas the scientists gets very you. know have a hard time found uh speaking. to an artists um and quite often they're. talking past each other um for me it's. just I love it um and and that's the. blessing and curse when I speak to. people that know you and work with you. they describe you as. ambitious now ambition and being. ambitious is an interesting word because. it's often loaded with this presumption. that someone has a desire for a certain.

outcome yeah like they're trying to. they're ambitious because they want to. be really successful or they want. gazillion pounds um are you ambitious. and what does that actually mean to. you um yeah I'm I'm I'm ambitious um but. I probably am ambitious in the uh the. way my mother taught me to be ambitious. which is the inputs right which is um. you know if I see someone with. Incredible potential that that squanders. that potential um I um I asked myself.

why why are you doing this and why not. strive for the great thing and in so. many cases in life I found that the. difference between you know aiming super. high versus um aiming just a little bit. higher than where you are from an effort. perspective it's about the same effort. um so you might just as well aim higher. you know this saying of you shoot for. the stars and you land on the moon um. that is very much kind of my life.

philosophy why not trying to do it. bigger why not try to do it um even more. interesting and maybe you have to settle. for something less but isn't it more. interesting and more fun to try to do. the really big hairy audacious thing not. for everyone maybe maybe not uh but I. know that because you work with so many. people that maybe don't lean into. ambition yeah that that's true but I I. also wonder if if that's true uh or.

whether they're just worried. about really testings and understanding. where their limits are so many people. are more afraid of failure than they are. of success uh and that stops them from. even beginning to try um right and and I. find that so many times like the amount. of people I'm sure came to you is like. oh it's really good for you but I had. the same idea it's like okay well why. didn't you do anything about it and and.

often times it's like well for this and. that and that reason and and they talk. themselves out of it um but at the very. core I believe it comes down to that. they're actually more worried about. failing than they are about the. prospects of. succeeding your kids then what would you. advise them to do if they were say they. wanted to follow in your Footsteps in. particular or start a business at that. juncture where we kind of leave High. School yeah and we can either go into. like work or university would you do you. think the the university system is a. little bit outdated yeah I do um but as.

with many things um you know I I don't I. I don't think it's bad I don't think. it's good either I think it depends. there are certain people that do well in. that structure and and need that kind of. rigor of that sort of path to go down. and do incredibly well um against um you. know the essays and the as it and. they're really good and they're really. good with the lectures and then taking. the notes and just have that sort of.

discipline in that area of their life. where they do well in that circumstance. and then that education then sets them. up for greater things so I think it. depends I mean if your dream is to. become a lawyer then I think you have to. go through that path right um because. it's impossible otherwise I think if you. want to be an. entrepreneur uh the single best thing. you can do is to um probably study as. many business as you can and get as much. business exposure in that so what do I.

mean by that well it can come in by. working for businesses uh that are great. but more importantly probably working. for great individuals um and learning. from them right so if you are fortunate. enough to be able to do um you know. we're talking about this but um your. behind the scenes version um and and and. being able to like work for you and that. and see you up up close it's going to be. invaluable for that individual that get. to do that um because you get to see.

entrepreneurship from the first row you. get to see what it's like um what. business aspect What's um you know how. do you do that how much admin do you. need to carry and even if you're just a. fly on the wall you're going to learn so. many skills that are quite diverse and. and that's the I think the biggest trick. about entrepreneurship is like the the. for. me uh everyone when they think about the. word Innovation they think that it's. something entirely novel yet for me.

Innovation um I don't know of a single. thing that just someone came up with uh. that had no prior grounds everything is. about putting two or more things in. together in a new context um so studying. many different things understanding a. little bit about business understanding. a little bit about um product and how to. make that product um understanding uh. whatever it is that our drivers uh from. that I think is important um and that's.

not to say that University can't do that. and it can't be helpful to learning. sales and the theory of it Etc um but I. think that there is many other paths you. could take uh that may even if you're um. you know if you have enough grits and. kind of like are able to put yourself in. a situation where you can uh get in. front of the right person start working. for them um so much is in life is around. people believing in you and and giving.

you the right place to grow um and and. and it's it's really certain dipit is to. be honest um and and and I'm certainly a. product of all that so I I I think it is. not right or wrong it's just I I dislike. how we're talking about it as it is the. way or um you know it's not the way and. it's like no I think it's more like it. works sometimes for certain individuals. and then for other individuals not the. best use of their time and there are.

other paths you can take but educating. yourself even if that's outside of a. university and getting a degree concept. that I think is invaluable and it's the. most important thing you can be doing as. a young individual about anything you're. interested in I think that's one of the. big misconceptions people have about me. when they hear I dropped out of. University they think I don't like. education no no no no no yeah I spend. all day like all night till 2: a.m. learning about rockets and Ai and all. that stuff a self-educated but the.

institution of Education that is. University for me I just couldn't stay. awake yeah in that experience same here. but for another person it is exactly. what they they need because they may not. even know what they're interested in and. they feel like I want to have a. foundation that gives me a broad base so. again if a master's of Science degree if. if you know you want to be an engineer. but you're not entirely sure what type. of engineer it's a very broad Foundation. that will teach you Elemental skills.

that um you probably will use at some. point in time um not saying you can't go. outside of that realm too but it's great. stuff um and if you're wired that way. you do well in that type of environment. uh great um and there's certain types of. people that do that when young people. come up to me and ask me this question. about what I should be doing with my. life at that early stage the advice I've. started to give and I want to check how. you how you would change or add or alter.

this advice is to try and go and join a. startup so just for context I'm talking. about people that want to be. entrepreneurs here yeah to try and go. and join a startup that's doing. something at the very cutting edge of. the world or a wave that's currently. coming into to shore so I'd say to young. kids like go and join an AI startup and. the reason I say startup is because. you're going to be closer to the. decision making you're going to learn. more you're going have more exposure. than like if you went and worked at I. don't know a Google or something sure um. and also it's the cheapest way to fail.

when you're young right like you can. observe the company fall into the. graveyard without there being a huge. cost to you yeah uh I I would agree I. mean I I think that is a tremendous. um uh opportunity uh to do that um but. again I've seen the paths work too I've. seen people uh join bigger companies and. move around inside of that company and. um get a super valuable skills um and.

then eventually um kind of break out as. an entrepreneur as well and maybe um you. wanted to save up some money and. obviously if you're join a little bit of. a bigger company you're able to do that. and prioritize doing both and then you. know once you have that kind of Nest Egg. of sorts you can then break out and so I. I I don't know I it's like the I used to. think um and you and I we were talking. about this before I used to think that. you know hey I've got all this advice.

I'm going to just going to give it and. more and more I on a personal basis I'm. not sure I'm in a great position to give. advice on many things um and and so I I. try to stay away from it I can't help. myself when I feel like people are doing. it but I try to not do it as much as I. do um and it's actually something I'm. deeply conscious about because I don't. think that there's one path in life I. think that there are many paths in life. and um of course there are really bad. ones um but.

but some some of the more amazing life. stories aren't the obvious ones uh it is. not the people even doing the sort of. hey I joined a startup or I did this and. that it may be the person who spent um. start life in a lab to only get so. frustrated in the end that they end up. breaking out and then forming a company. because no one else wanted to do the. idea that they had in mind or maybe the. person who uh was the least likely to.

solve that problem but had really been. spending all this time thinking about it. um and developed this really odd skill. while doing their normal day job that. then turned out to be really useful to. solving this particular. problem I find it incredibly fascinating. that when we look at the back end of. spotify and apple and our audio channels. the majority of people that watch this. podcast haven't yet hit the follow. button or the Subscribe button wherever. you listening to this I would like to. make a deal with you if you could do me.

a huge favor and hit that subscribe. button I will work tirelessly from now. until forever to make the show better. and better and better and better I can't. tell you how much it helps when you hit. that subscribe button the show gets. bigger which means we can expand the. production bring in all the guests you. want to see and continue to doing this. thing we love if you could do me that. small favor and hit the follow button. whatever you're listening to this that. would mean the well to me that is the. only favor I will ever ask you thank you. so much for your time back to this. episode and going back to that first. company that was acquired at.

vertigo after that was acquired um I. read that you retired at. 23 yeah I'm guessing that made you. enough money to retire yep and you're 23. which is in 2006 and you're a retired. man living what one can only describe. as any 23 year- old's dream yeah lots of. money guessing there was some champagne. there I think there was a red. Ferrari how was that for you. it was.

amazing no all all jokes aside I grew up. and as I said I was kind of like always. socially accepted but didn't feel like. it belonged anywhere and um I um um I. never had an easy time with girls um not. a bad time just not as as good as if I. was widely successful in music or wildly. successful in sports or any of that. stuff and I kind of had odd interest. because I kept as I said kind of moving.

from group to group um and so I I had. this idea uh in my head um that I wanted. to you know be financially. independent um I wanted uh I thought. that once I got to that point I would. start living life um and I thought that. um you know uh I would be more socially. accepted and I would find my tribe uh. and it's embarrassing to talk about it. now um but um you know that was really.

what I thought so uh I thought that uh. if I was lucky and worked really hard I. might be able to retire in my. 40s if I worked really hard but you know. 50s for sure and and um so you know. getting to that point when I was 22. actually not 23 it it was just. mindboggling to me and um I had that. Financial Target in mind um and I. thought well once I hit that I'm just.

going to like you know do something else. and and so as you said I kind of like. started frequenting all the night clubs. uh bought a sports car um tried to get. the girls I could never get before. realizing that yes I could get them um. but for all the wrong reasons and they. didn't really care about me um and it. was kind of a hollowing thing because it. was this kind of oh was this what I. worked for for such a long period of. time and then. um only to find out that um you know it.

was quite depressing honestly I had all. these new friends that weren't really. great friends at all um luckily I was. able to keep my old friends as well um. but I realized that this thing I thought. I wanted uh I just didn't want at all. and um what was the symptom when we say. realize there's typically symptoms. psychological symptoms or um no I I. realized it because I I um you know I. started getting all these phone calls.

from people um asking me to come out on. Friday evenings and Saturday evenings uh. and I just I was just empty I just had. no energy to do that um and I thought to. myself oh this is odd because they old. me thought this was what life was all. about and I had had girls call me and. like hey you should really come out we. miss you all that stuff and I realized. that I just didn't care and had um I. thought that that was you know this.

magical moment and in fact um you know. putting on my computer or playing my. guitar um was kind of yeah this is more. me and so something on the back of my. head started forming around like who am. I what do I care about and it's it's. actually in that process I met my. co-founder because he was the founder of. trade doubler and who uh bought my uh. company and he too kind of the company. had iped he got kicked out of the.

company he he was like a 100 times more. wealthier than I was like he he had like. the biggest success in Tech Sweden at. the time and had everything going for. him but he didn't know what to do with. life and so that was kind of how we. bonded um and um you know we were. watching like old Godfather movies. eating crisps um and talking about what. to do in life uh and and that was like a. real friendship moment a real Turning.

Point uh and he saw um the same thing. that I saw and uh um you know that was. when I realized that I've been. approaching this all wrong uh in fact I. always LED working it was never about. money um I always liked learning um and. I would pay to go learn for someone. rather than getting paid for it and but. at the same time I thought work should. be hard that was the thing that I had.

programmed into me so work has to be. clearly something you not don't enjoy. doing um so I thought well what if you. change all of these parameters what if. you create an environment where you can. come in and learn from really smart. people all the time what if you can work. on something you actually care about. opposed to something that makes money. what if you could have a lot of fun. while doing it and not take it too. serious and we started talking and um we.

were balancing ideas and Martin my. co-founder was like asking me like Well. if you really could pick anything like. what what would you pick and I I'm I. said to him well um you know uh I'd. probably pick music but that's a. terrible idea uh and he said well why is. that a terrible idea and I said well. it's a terrible idea because you know. the industry is going down the drains it. just doesn't work it's piracy it's all. of these reasons and he said okay okay. um but but if one would fix it how would.

one do well kind of stupid they're. trying to regulate it clearly you need. to build a better product that's the. only thing that's going to work CU they. said okay well how are you going to do. that and it's like well I don't know but. maybe you could do this or that okay. well how would that work I like well I. don't know but maybe you could do this. and that and how would you make money. well I I think maybe you could pay out. based on how much people were listening. I don't know and then literally after. going through why not uh 100 time times.

I started realizing that yeah why not. and why not give this a shot and I told. him from the beginning you know uh that. um hey this is probably going to loes a. lot of money I have a hard time seeing. this ever being a sustainable business. um but I in let's do this and he said. great let's do it um and while I was. hesitating for some reason he wasn't uh. so he was like this seems fun let's do.

it and that gave me enough confidence. where I kind of had found a new purpose. again and instantly I stopped responding. to all the people who were trying to get. me out in the evenings and I was like. well I got something to do and then I. went back to work again and it was like. pretty much a week from that moment. where I felt like I'm happy again I. haven't felt this happy for you know the. better part of a year because it was. about a year when I was going through. this transition of of just having fun.

being retired um first month was fun 6. months in. depressing uh N9 months in am I ever. going to get out of this depression to. then kind of a year in finding something. else that I truly look forward to that. felt crazy um and I honestly did not. think we would succeed but if we succeed. I knew it was going to be a big. thing something really interesting there. that could relate to a lot was this idea. that you had a hypothesis about your.

happiness that had to fail you to know. that it was not a valid hypothesis about. happiness and there's so many people. obviously I mean there's I'd assume it. more than half the population are. currently pursuing a hypothesis they. have about what will make them happy. that probably and this is the thing I. always wonder is does it have to fail. them for them to know that that's not. the right pursuit in my case it did it. had to fail me yeah I had to fill the. anticlimax and then I had to go and buy.

the the big house and then was there for. nine months and got out of it as quick. as I could and bought the car and then. got rid of the car and then just moved. as close to the office as I could in a. one-bedroom studio apartment yeah yeah. but for a lot of people I'm like is. there a way for them not for it for them. not have to go all that way and have it. fail them well I think that there's. certain life experiences um uh that you. can't learn from other people you just. have to live live live it and I think. it's not so much about sort of the. monetary thing or the status thing um.

although I would probably say status. whether or not you should really seek it. I think is one of those things that we. all have to go through I I think. everyone can talk about it don't seek. attention don't seek Fame don't seek all. of these things but we're we're human. beings we want to be well-liked by other. people um and so I think that is. probably one of them but but in general. I think the further away it is from. anything you know and can relate to I. think um. we have to uh experience parts of it so.

you know one one of the most amazing. thing that I get to do these days for my. friends is um from like back when is I. take them on these crazy experiences uh. right you know I'm I'm fortunate enough. that I get to see some of the coolest. people in the world whether it's. musicians but athletes and and so on um. that uh they're able to get a glimpse of. my life uh and I love it because um you.

know they're looking at it with this. kind of sh shlik imagination and wonder. about some some things that I'm going. through but I also see the other side. when they're like is it really that much. work wow I would never want to do this. and it's it's quite helpful um because. as we started out saying they have this. idea what the life is so I kind of like. bringing them along on the journey where. they get to see it and then um you can. see that there are aspects of it that. they like and then other aspects that.

they would never ever want to get into. um so um you know I I think it might be. possible to kind of simulate that. experience um but I think you have to. experience it very much up close uh. certainly when you're talking about. wealth and if you come from having none. I think almost everyone then would. instantly need to experience a little. bit of it uh to at least kind of. understand whether that's important or. not especially if you get it uh like we.

both did probably in our 20s and so on. had I had I worked up until my 40s I may. have kind of realized hey this isn't. life I'm I'm having children I'm having. my wife this is amazing I got this. experience being a single guy trying to. chase girls um and all I'd seen was on. MTV how all of the rappers uh were. throwing around money and uh having 20. or 30 girls at the nightclub and and you. know hey I wanted that too mhm one thing.

I'm really interested in is you said you. got to 9 months and you were depressed. N9 months after the sale there are so. many people now and this is why I asked. about what the symptoms of that were. it's hard to know when we're drifting. down the wrong path because it creeps up. on us like a frog in a frying pan I I. remember a time working seven days a. week and this feeling in my chest if I. would describe it as like a a subtle. growing. emptiness and that was for me in. hindsight I was lonely yeah and I didn't. know I was yeah so those symptoms that.

you encountered at 9 months in in a way. that someone might relate to them what. were those. feelings um I I I think my entire life. as I mentioned I I've been struggling to. fit in um and I think it's something we. probably share um and have in common and. I somehow thought that this would help. and um when the situation was new um it. did feel like I found my new tribe and. it did feel like they um um you know.

this early excitement everyone's calling. you everyone wants you to be part of. something that you before may not have. been able to enjoy and may not get those. phone calls and may not get into the. hottest nightclubs and and the club. promoters like putting you on the list. plus 10 and all that stuff this social. currency so it was thrilling it was. absolutely amazing and and it it truly. was this kind of like wow I've made it.

kind of. feeling um but um after you experien the. 10th time and I somehow had this idea. that it would translate into this. continuous feeling of that thing or. translate into something more meaningful. I I sort of realized that no wait a. minute it's the same experience again. but it's lost a little bit of a charm. and I started now getting the. hangarounds that we're trying to get in. with me because you know they realized.

that maybe I would buy the bottles um I. was seeing people at the table come up. and grab a glass and then run away um. all of that kind of thing and I I I it's. slowly sort of dawn upon me that um you. could replace me by just anyone else. that had um the money and the connection. that I had at that time thereby the. status and it would really would matter. um you know and and um uh you know I I.

was I was listening to I think it's his. name is Morgan howold um the author who. talks about psychology of money and he. kind of talked about it the the the. Ferrari syndrome and he basically. describes that uh everyone uh who. aspires to buy a Ferrari um thinks of. themselves and saying oh well one day. when I'm in this Ferrari everyone's. going to look at this Ferrari and. they're going to be amazed with me yeah. what we all do is we look at the Ferrari. and we want to sit there we actually.

don't care about the individual that's. currently sitting in there so this kind. of um you know Paradox um so to speak. and and that's very much how I felt. about my life and as you're right right. it uh you push that to a side and you. say well surely this you know this is. fun and you have all these other people. coming out and then you kind of bury it. and then it keeps coming up and then it. comes up again and then it comes up more. and more and more and I didn't realize. what it was at first because I was like. surely I'm just being foolish this is.

this is life and everyone was rewarding. me on the outside too saying why the. life you live this is amazing how cool. is not to be retired and just not having. to do anything um but I wasn't learning. and I wasn't forming genine connections. with people um I was just being and uh. yes I got status but I realized I never. did anything for status and I actually. did didn't care in the end uh from being.

status I cared about belonging but not. in that group um I wanted to be uh in. another group that cared about um me for. being me and you must have learned a lot. now in hindsight about what the core. components of you being sufficiently. happy are you've used a few of them. there like learning was one of them. belonging what are what are the other. core components of you think for someone. just it's easier to just talk about. ourselves here for you to be.

stable um I I I realized. um that I also need to be by by be. allowed to be by myself right um so I. used to in Prior relationships um before. meeting my wife I used to think you know. you're in a relationship you constantly. need to do something with the other. party and it was draining me and uh I. used to think there was something wrong. with me uh because I wanted to be by. myself for most of the time and um and.

being comfortable with that I am that. way that I I thrive on loneliness uh not. all the time because I can feel lonely. um but um for quite a lot of time. perhaps more so than more normal people. like being lonely um I'm I'm just. finding myself in that um place where I. just pursue whatever um is top of mind.

for me I am sort of in my own thoughts. uh wandering dreaming uh scheming um you. know um that's been very important too. because I used to think there was. something wrong with that yeah uh and. then my wife luckily she's kind of the. same she does her thing and I do my. thing and we love that we can do stuff. with each other but we're also perfectly. happy doing things on our own um and um. and that kind of taught me also quite a.

lot about. myself in that because again we are. social animals uh and I am too by the. way I love um hanging out with my. friends but I also love being by myself. so I think having a positive impact um. not just on myself I have to feel good. about what I'm doing and know that it. helps someone um being able to learn uh. being able to have fun while doing it. and uh then be in an environment where I.

can be lonely and then can come back. without that being sort of socially. awkward uh like one of my favorite. things that I can do with my close. friends is I can literally uh let's say. I would host a dinner I could host a. dinner uh and I get an idea it's very. uncommon but I'll get an idea and I will. walk away and disappear for an hour and. I'll come back um and uh that's like. something that's kind of socially. acceptable in most situation I do. realize that so I I try to not do that.

if I'm I'm with um you know strangers. because they won't understand they W. won't understand but my real friends um. they know that about me and they're like. totally cool so they just hang out and. then when I come back I love that. they're there and I love that they're. hanging out with my kids or hanging out. with my wife and doing other stuff and. just being comfortable in in that that. for me is like a perfect dinner is one. where. I would be social I would get an idea.

walk away think about it for a moment. get collect my thoughts get energy write. it down and come back filled with energy. from that and then you know continue the. conversation uh that's a great example. of something I love doing so that's. actually happened where you've been at a. dinner party with friends and then. you've had an idea and you've left you. and then you've my thing there is if I. left so the first thing is I'm not sure. my girlfriend would be very happy. yeah she understands that I'm like that. she understands that I love being alone.

she understands that I get ideas at. unpredictable times and that idea might. suck me away she probably would be that. happy um about it probably need to have. a conversation about that um but also if. I went away I would need to start. working on the idea because I'd get so. energized about the thing that I'd then. spend all night like sorry guys I yeah. that happens by the way it happens that. I like finish halfway through the dinner. and just disappear don't come back to I. will say my friends usually uh even my.

close friends are like uh hey we came to. hang out with you not like to see you. for half an hour then you're. disappearing uh but it happens um um but. I can obviously equally be there for all. the dinner too um and and yeah I mean it. is one of the social Oddities I think. that I do um with my close friends um. and I again I I know it's highly. socially unacceptable that most. situations but but if you really think.

about it as an introvert as I said I. usually thrive on I need social elements. but I get most of my energy being by. myself all right and and so then from an. energy balance uh perspective being with. people it gives me a lot of ideas it's. great but it also empties my energy. reserved and going away filling them up. again coming back it is probably the. ideal way for me if you you asked me. like what would a perfect night look. like it would probably be that how do.

you then balance romance and. relationships and my partner her I think. her attachment style and her love. language is like quality time so I often. violate that love language because of. what you've just described yeah we could. be Saturday in a park and then I think. about something or get an email and then. I'm off away on my own little world yeah. yeah I mean that's certainly the risk um. again I'm I'm fortunate enough that my. wife is kind of very similar to me in.

that regard so she too leaves uh dinners. and has her ideas and and uh you know do. that so I think we're we're more similar. we try to make sure that one of us stay. because it gets very awkward otherwise. um but but if you're both like that do. you have to have rules though for when. you do B yeah well that's the thing. that's that's actually the harder thing. for us is finding that quality time so I. mean there's two parts you can either. have I I like defaults so you can have.

like the default is we spend time. together or the default is we're in a. relationship where we don't spend time. together and so you have to make time. where you're actively finding something. you both are interested in and you want. to spend time on together and I think. we're more that and I think most people. probably with kids would recognize that. because the kids come first in the. relationship anyway so your relationship. to your significant other um is probably. you know um the second priority in that.

relationship and and your wants kids are. the first so I don't think that's. uncommon but I think changing that. theault could be really important um and. again if it's something that's really. important to my wife of course I'm going. to be present uh she's really into horse. riding uh I'm not but I know it's. matters to her greatly so not only uh. will I try to speak to her every morning. when she wants to talk about that but I. also show up for her competitions or I. show up for important practices uh that.

she has as well um and um there are. aspects of the horsing thing where we. can Bond and and have great quality time. as well um as it is she loves hearing. about my entrepreneurial Endeavors uh as. well and and we find quality time. through that and then we have date. nights like most couples do and uh yeah. I mean if you're at the restaurant you. don't just really walk up and get away. of course you're going to spend that.

quality time as. well starting. Spotify when I heard the Spotify story I. I really wanted to meet you. because I consider myself to be. ambitious but there are some challenges. that I would just view as impossible and. at the time when you consider how the. music industry was that it's ran by. these big record labels predominantly. and they own the music to be a young kid. from.

Sweden and believe that you could change. that for me is a special type of. delusion like it's like a it's just an. impossible task it's what I just would. have thought okay some things are the. way they are they're removable objects. that is one of them yeah why didn't you. think that was a impossible. task. um well I think for several reasons but. I I think that is the beautiful naivity. of an entrepreneur as well right uh we. move mountains I'm sure Elon was you.

know even more insurmountable thing. electric cars and hadn't been a. successful car companies for uh I think. a century or something um or at least uh. you know many many decades in the US and. he managed to do that so I think it's um. it it's part. illusion uh delusion sorry um but but. the other part I think um also is that. what I realized is before even. committing to this idea as the the why.

not part I probably spent 500 hours. learning about this problem and the. scarcest resource we have in the world. today by far is time and when you have. high quality people that spend thousands. of hours on a problem you find new. Solutions and so the biggest um thing. for Humanity I believe is simply that um. I believe we're capable of doing.

practically anything but uh there aren't. that many people that um can see these. multi-dimensional things with that right. experience that happens to come in at. that right time they're spending. thousands of hours of trying to needle. in a Hast stack see that opportunity. through that very very tiny prism and. and um um even even today when I think. about it some of my other businesses it. kind of work the same way so I started a.

healthc care business about five years. ago but I I was spending um I think the. first interview when I mentioned it was. in. 2009 um and I started the company 5. years ago uh 2018 so I I probably spent. a decade thinking about this problem um. and I couldn't figure out a solution. 2008 yeah yeah you you started the 2008. but you no no no I started the company. the Healthcare company in 2018 18 but I.

started thinking about it 2008 oh okay. um so I have a notebook with all my. crazy ideas most of them amount to. nothing uh quite often someone else. comes along and dust them and I'm happy. and it's amazing um but every now and. then um nothing happens for a great. period of time and I kind of feel that. itch to maybe make a difference myself. and I and I say that because like the. realization there was um I had spend up.

until that point thousands of hours. understanding the Health Care System why. it is the way it is the incentive. schemes and the what the NHS is doing. and what someone else is doing and the. Public Health Care System Insurance. business directed consumer things the. the longevity curves of human beings the. disease groups the costs curves like all. of those aspects um about it similar to. how you're describing looking at Rockets. um but you know imagine you spending a. thousand hours to Rocket not just kind.

of casually researching it I am sure you. will find novel ways of how to attack. the problem it may not be because you. know if you're not an physicist you may. not come up with a next rocket engine um. but you may find another twist uh to on. how to attack this problem and I don't. really think it comes down to that and. so uh in the space of music I don't know. anything about the music industry going. into it um but I would argue a few years.

into it I was probably one of the most. foremost experts on copyright in the. world around like the dmca and um what. the US copyright regime look like and. what what um other regimes look like and. how um you know performance rights. societies label rights and what kind of. Rights mechanical rights performing. rights uh all of those different aspects. all the different Co code is are C. numbers ISBN numbers and how they. related and so on and so forth and and.

um um you know I I find like people. either get too modeled in on the details. and don't see the bigger picture or they. stay too top level picture to really see. the new ones and the question is how do. you dive deep enough where you see it. and figure out which problem to solve in. what order um and and I was at that. point um by probably 2007 having spent a. year on Spotify but the team was super.

small so it it really wasn't a big. commit at that time and I wasn't sure at. that time but then I realized that hey. this is actually possible uh because we'. built the product that showcased the. technology um of what we were doing and. it felt like if you had all the world. music on your hard drive so then the. real problem ended up being can we get. the music industry to accept this and to. that I had no idea but I felt like this. is so obviously if this came out in the.

marketplace what consumers would ask for. now the only question is is the music. industry going to allow this and that. took me another year and a half 18. months to learn the answer and it was. completely binary we almost died. probably four times um in that process. and ran out of money and uh record. company saying no no this is never going. to happen until eventually one day Stars. aligned and we were able to launch um. but that was not a given but it felt.

like the right bet to make because you. know it was a binary outcome either we'd. fail the price wasn't all too bad if we. would succeed it was clearly so that at. least this would resonate very well with. consumers was there any moments where. you thought that it wasn't going to. happen are you conversations you had. with record labels where someone very. high up says absolutely no way me many. times uh I would say. um probably once every month or two over.

a 2-year period I thought that this. probably won't pan out uh and it was. incredibly demoralizing I I usually joke. but like in the beginning of that. process I had hair and then in the end. of it I lost all of the hair I probably. gained 30 lbs in weight uh during that. period of time um it was awful um but. through it all my co-founder Martin uh. probably a factor of just who he is as. an individual but also probably because. he didn't participate in these meetings.

uh kept being really upbeat kept being. um you know an amazing support and said. don't worry about it you're going to. figure it out and he just kept believing. in me and then he also said a few times. you know when that was in enough he said. don't worry about it we'll figure out. something else if this doesn't work out. it felt to me like I always had that. safety net and it was just the amount. the push that I needed to do this um and. again talking about not giving advice. but the advice that I do give to other.

people is to share the burden with. someone uh it is so important um and I. know I get most of the credit for. Spotify but it is really a team effort. uh from the gustavs and Alex and all. those people but then also in the early. days from uh Martin in believing in me. uh and and knowing uh with this kind of. Supernatural ability that I'm going to. pull it off some. that must have told you a story which I. guess has stayed with you about.

perseverance and the power of. perseverance the the double-edged sword. to that. is sometimes it's right to quit as well. yeah and knowing when to persevere and. knowing when you're just wasting your. time which is as you said the most. important currency of all yeah you. know that's where you know art meets. science um there is no scientific answer. because it depends it's an art to know. uh when something is futile and when. something is worth doing but I call it.

that sort of binary outcome but uh with. uneven distribution right so if you. think about it as a curve even if it's. 50/50 whether you succeed but on the. upside you can win a lot more than you. can lose and all you can really lose is. one time and the upside maybe 100 m it's. probably worth uh persuading obviously. it's that's the science part the art. thing is okay well is it really 100. times is a 10 times and and have I. already lost but I'm just not aware of.

it um that's the art and also in that I. hear an optimism bias from two. co-founders the the constant oh we'll. figure it out we'll figure it out we'll. figure it out how important do you think. that is especially you know you hire a. lot of people is that something you're. like looking for and the people that you. work with that bias towards will figure. it out um I think again it depends on. the role you're Hing for you need a team. uh I think it's really important that. you just don't surround yourself with. just yes people or Optimist uh you need. the naysayer in the room as well you.

need the people who will balance it out. and be the one who says I'm not sure. this is going to work out um and and so. often I think that's the that's the. important part we keep talking about it. CFO or sales people but again you can. have a deal making CFO and a sales. person that's Happy gol lucky um it may. not be a great uh combo you may want the. the CFO to be skeptical about the sales. Pipeline and a happy gol lucky.

salesperson or the inverse maybe like. really diligent that and the CFO that. maybe sort of like don't worry about it. we will sort it out um but I but I think. so much about that is the subtleties we. we don't have a perfect model of the. world um and uh the more experience I. have it's a Cheesy thing to say but the. Lesser realize that actually no um and. so much of this are actually down in the. nuances and most people are um above the.

nuances don't really understand the. issues well enough or too bog down into. details to understand the bigger picture. and and going that sort of up and down. that's sort of super detail oriented um. but also being able to go up and see the. big pictures that is um and simplifying. very complex Concepts I think some of. the most amazing entrepreneurs in the. world are experts at um and that is the. superpower and that is certainly one. that I'm trying to hone um uh and work.

on uh but when you see it like Steve. Jobs when you take very complex things. and people say he didn't understand. engineering and Technical problems it's. not true yes he may not have been an. engineer he may not have known how to. write code but he certainly could. empathize with what um made an amazing. engineer tick uh empathize with. different Technical Solutions will have. different inputs and outputs um and he. understood it and um he was brilliant in.

taking very complex ideas and. understanding how to make that resonate. for the everyday person these Tales I. hear of you sort of being outside record. labels and waiting for the CEO to come. out so that you could catch them or. trying to accost I don't know the the. assistant outside and asking when the. CEO was coming outside so that you could. get a meeting with them yeah are these. Tales true um as with many they're. probably exaggerated a little bit um. where is the truth well the the the. truth is that certainly happened but it. wasn't you know I've heard people.

recounted us that I slept outside of the. the record labels kind of in a sleeping. bag that that didn't happen uh that. happened another time in my career but. it wasn't um it it it didn't happen. there but but it certainly happened that. I'd book A Week fly to New York with no. meeting booked uh with basically an open. calendar and about 20 phone calls a day. just trying to figure out a time to get. on this the schedule of U senior VP or a.

CEO Etc that certainly happened and that. taught me another thing too which is. that these assistants like you better. befriend them because they are the keys. to the kingdom um and most people don't. care about them at all uh but they're. very influential they're very powerful. um and uh and and you know uh that was. hard in the beginning but then I. realized that um they got to see me as. an individual saw them as an individual. and eventually you know this this is not.

we tend to believe the world is more. logical than what it is but a lot of it. is based on relationship So eventually. some of them started taking a liking to. me and so when there was the opportunity. and they could prioritize 10 other. things for that CEO to do but I was. there I was friendly uh in easy to work. with show up at no moments notice even. if you know it was 20 minutes before. finding out about it I would show up um. and so I was I was easy to deal with so. take away all that complexity in order.

to achieve the outcome that I wanted to. do and sometimes that is as simple as it. is just be consistent be the easiest. person to deal with and you'd be. surprised how many problems it solves. did you invest your personal Capital. into starting Spotify because I I read. again that you'd spent pretty much all. of your personal wealth to start the. company yeah yeah I did uh so I invested. not all of it but quite substantial. amounts of it uh and my Cod funer. invested even more but he obviously had. a much larger sum of money um from the.

beginning um yeah so all in all I think. we invested about $10 million uh into. this um by ourselves uh which was also. crazy because you know back then today. 10 million into a startup just was isn't. a big number there many startups that. have done that before but doing that on. a seed stage uh back in 2007. that just was unheard of it was usually. 500k seed check sums Etc what if it.

hadn't worked out what would have been. the personal implications for you. financially uh the personal implications. that I went from not having to have a. job to then probably having to go back. to having a job um so I basically took. that security uh that I built up uh that. 22 I'm set for life and I gave that up. um in a moment's notice um and um yeah I. mean um I I don't know what to say I. think from a purely logical point of.

view it was probably terrible decision. um but betting on myself and betting on. yourself would probably be again U I say. I shouldn't give advice but it is. probably the the best advice I could. give many people is is you know because. especially those that want to invest in. various startups Etc and I but they may. not have a lot of money and then I. always say well what what don't you just. bet on your yourself instead why don't. you just try to like work for one of. these startups like you said and and.

maybe take a little bit more equity and. a little bit less pay and take out of. your cash instead because that way you. increase the likelihood hopefully if you. know you're good of the company being a. success and it just feels like the more. prudent thing to do and so I had a. sneaky feeling that that was the right. thing to do uh but investing as much. probably wasn't the smartest thing to do. a new po sponsor that I'm super excited. to talk about with all of you is. LinkedIn jobs hiring as I would know is.

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posting a job is super easy and you can. add a purple hash hiring frame around. your LinkedIn profile to spread the word. LinkedIn jobs helps you find the. qualified candidates you want to talk to. faster post your job for free at. linkedin.com. doac that's linkedin.com. doac to post your job for free terms and. conditions apply as you may know this. podcast is sponsored by hu if you're. living under a rock you might have. missed that I've come to learn over time. not all of the products they have are. for me but the ones that are for me have.

really really changed my life in a. profound way all of the products are. designed for different use cases and. different people for me as you'll. probably know the ready to drink bottles. are a staple of my life at the moment um. and they have been for many many years. but for a lot of other people they have. the hot and savory which is a 5 minute. hot meal that's nutritionally complete. and contains all the good stuff that all. heel products contain which is the 23. vitamins and minerals and the wonderful. balance of sort of nutritional. completeness and then you have the bars. as well if you've heard about hu on this. podcast you've heard me talking about it.

a lot you're aware that I'm an investor. in the company you're aware that I'm on. the board of the company and you're not. sure where to start I would highly. recommend starting with the bestseller. bundle basically we'll send you a. package in the pose containing all of. the favorite products that people love. and then you try them all and stick with. the ones that really really fit you the. link is in the description below to try. the best seller bundle. Spotify goes on to be I mean success is. probably an understatement and I know. the journey to that success had multiple.

near-death experiences to get there one. of the key things key moments I reflect. on as a Spotify customer um is when. Apple launched their competing product. Apple music in 2015 I believe it was and. there was lots of Articles saying that. this would be the death of Spotify yeah. I think I was even concerned as a very. loyal Spotify user I thought [ __ ] you. know they have all the phones they have. they're kind of like the mafia they. could just was you yeah most companies. when Apple comes into their territory.

shaking their boots yeah what was it. like in your office that day when Apple. music launched a competing product you. know when you live in the thick of the. fire you're not concerned about the. things that everyone else is concerned. about um I I usually say public. perception lacks about 6 to 12 months. what's actually going on and and so in. our case we had known that Apple was. going to launch something for probably. the better part of a year because they. had the Beats acquisition beforehand and. we were hearing all sorts of rumors Etc.

about what it was so absolutely you have. to be worried when one of the greatest. companies on Earth decides to compete. with you so we were concerned about it. um uh and we were kind of doubling down. on what our positioning was going to be. so you kind of like double and triple. checked whether or not um you know you. were deluding yourself into believing. things to be true um and and so for. instance in our case one of the big. things uh we we had a some strategic. pillars that we were focusing on one of. them we call ubiquity um because we.

always knew this would eventually be the. case we we thought that consumers would. value the ability to work across all. devices and all ecosystem and our bet. would be that um any competitor we might. have had would actually focus on. reinforcing their own ecosystem and not. care about all the other stuff so the. primary reason they were into a music. service would be to make their own. devices better not to make the world's.

best music service and um and so you. know that's why we made such an effort. of integrating into cars integrating. into all sorts of uh weird devices smart. fridges whatever you might think um and. so so it was kind of like reiterating. that but I felt pretty good about that. position um and going back and then. there's always the sort of like what if. they figured out something that we just. wouldn't have thought about uh and I. remember we were constantly talking to.

the product teams about this uh and like. what what what if they come up with this. and we're literally trying this game. theorizing every possible angle um on it. um um but I think at the end of the day. we we kind of went through the Thousand. scenarios kind of thing we knew we had. prepared as well as we could um we um. anticipated a certain type of product. there was this kind of 1% or 10% chance. whatever you want to quantify it as. where we would just be wrong and they'd.

come up with something that widely. superseded any of our expectations um. but that very day remember we'd been. preparing for that day for so long so. the first reaction was kind of them. announcing it which we expected them to. do uh and then seeing the walkthrough of. the product and realizing that okay well. we prepared for this we thought about. this Etc and so weirdly enough as the. rest of the world World kind of like. gasped for air um we were thinking about.

it okay well this was what we expected. um and back to that point distribution. was the amazing thing they hadn't come. up with something on the product side. that we just didn't anticipate um but it. was really just about distribution and. there was nothing we could do to guard. ourselves against it um but we felt like. we had a superior experience um on the. personalization side the fact that you. know if you have a Windows machine and. an iPhone um Spotify would work um but.

Apple music um wouldn't at that time um. so there were many of those things that. we um I thought had a better positioning. than they had i' I've long thought that. I've tried both I mean I tried it when. it came out and I couldn't stick to it. um and I think me and my friends who. were in my music group we all concluded. that the personalization how Spotify. understands me yeah is really the thing. it's hard to know why you do what you do. as a consumer y but from analyzing it a. bit more deeply um it just felt like I'd. built there was a lot of investment I'd.

done to my playlists and all those. things but Spotify just knew me better. seems to have much more data than um. data on me and understands me and is. more of a bespoke solution to me than. Apple was and also the the user. experience is not great and I just can't. get past that I just so I tried it and I. bounced I I I just stuck with Spotify um. Apple are I Ed the word Matthew earlier. on a lot of people don't know this but. they take 30% revenues on pretty much. every new app in the store they've.

rejected your audiobook app multiple. times um there's a rumor going around. that they even delay how quickly you can. release new updates of your app and. delay how that reaches phones what's. your opinion on Apple and what they do. and how they conduct themselves well um. it it's um as a consumer uh let's start. off with apple is a fantastic company. and they make amazing products uh I. really do believe that um I've been a. Mac User since I can't even remember.

probably late '90s when I could first. afford one uh all the way to now and. obviously use the iPhone and Apple. watches and all that stuff so let's. start with that and I think that's hard. to square then that there's this other. company that's. fiercely um focused on just um itself. and constantly trying to do things by. itself and out working well with others. um and. um those are perhaps two different sites.

of the same coin um but um you know the. the way that manifests itself um I think. that it's a company in many cases that. still sees itself as an underdog uh but. don't realize that they become Goliath. and so many of the tactics that made it. the rebel kind of thing are now stifling. Innovation and it's really hurting. consumers to a great extent with the 30%. you talked about with the fact that you.

know Spotify can't um or any developer. if you don't pay the 30% you can't even. speak to your consumers it is kind of. absurd um so you know there there's a. ruthlessness um on the business side of. Apple um and and perhaps it's always. been so I don't know I never got the. opportunity to meet Steve Jobs but um uh. um where just from an ethos point of. view it's just not me um and um um I.

have a hard time squaring that with me. as the consumer and me as the business. leader um and needless to say I I I do. believe that Apple can and should play. fair and I think it would be way better. for the world if they did um and I think. um that it would actually help them in. many regards to switch their tactics and. realize that they are the Goliath at. this point and not David um and so yeah.

one of the things I want to close on um. is your philosophy so I guess it's the. same answer because spotify's philosophy. towards what's made it successful will. probably be in many respects a. reflection of your philosophies towards. business and and um more broadly towards. life but when I sit here and I think a. lot of people will sit here and say um. there's clearly something unique about. you about the way you approach problem. solving problems life business all of. those things that has.

been that has defined you and set you. apart are you aware of what that is what. those principles. are um no I don't think so but I think. you're right in that um you know the the. the way I would describe Spotify um to. people you're WR that it is scary. sometimes watching Spotify uh trying to. watch it from a distance and not just be. in it because sometimes it's doing. things where I'm like how did how did.

people know that we were supposed to do. it this way um and it would be how I. would approach solving a problem and. it's kind of how um you know we've. internalized certain things but the best. way is it's 17 years old now and it is a. teenager that's liberating itself so. it's not 100% me uh in fact it is this. much broader uh different being uh there. are aspects of it it that um hasn't. taken after me um at all in um product.

development you know Gustav is a. formidable product leader as an example. and Alex is a formidable business leader. and the two of them are now leading more. of the day-to-day and they're certainly. instilling their personal uh values and. their personal uh perspective of the of. the company too which I think they're. totally entitled to doing having been. with the company for 12 plus years both. of them um but it is interesting see it. because we're approaching things now in. a way I wouldn't always do it's not. inconsistent with important principles.

of mine but but uh it's certainly not. directed and the other part is I started. this as a 23-year-old and the. 23-year-old Daniel while many parts are. the same uh The 40-Year-Old Daniel with. um two kids um having seen that have. changed perspectives as well uh I have a. different feeling about work and and the. importance of that in my life still very. important but may not be the sole most. important thing that I do just to.

mention one and so it has similarities. uh but there's differences to me as an. individual too but I think if you. compare me the 23y old Daniel the. 30-year old Daniel The 40-Year-Old. Daniel um I've evolved too and and. candidly I'm in that period at the. moment where I'm perhaps trying to. figure out who Who The 40-Year-Old. Daniel really is because it's a. different one than the 30-year-old one.

um maybe it's. subtleties but um I think in quite a big. way also and just thinking about. something like culture the 23-year-old. Daniel um culture was having a pinpoint. table uh 30-year-old Daniel uh would. have said yeah culture is important but. didn't really understand why and The. 40-Year-Old Daniel uh would be um in the. 30-year-old Daniel would be more. strategy than culture actually and The. 40-Year-Old Daniel is all about culture.

almost to the point where strategy is um. secondary if not even tertiary to that. um 40-year-old Daniel is all about. culture yeah uh way more so what is the. culture well that's the amazing thing. because it is the most scalable thing. done right of a company um and it's the. hardest thing right because it is. everything and nothing it is every. positive action that's happening in the. company it's every negative action of. company every person that's joining.

every person is leaving is impacting. culture and so um in its Essence I. believe culture is about rewarding the. positive behaviors you want to see in. the company and obviously disuade the. negative what are the positive behaviors. you want to see well one of them is. taking risks um and failing and how do. you do that when you have eight or 9,000. people inside of a company responsibly. how do you. uh when the common status quo is we. don't like failure um you don't get.

promoted based on failure you get. promoted based on being successful um. Annie Duke has this thinking in bets she. talks about I love that is thinking. about poker ships on the table and and. she said one time when when we spoke she. said to me is like um a companies like. um everyone has ships at the table we. just don't know how many we have and so. the people that have been successful. have way more so they have leniency and. allowanc in the culture of any.

organizations to do more than someone. who just started um and perhaps have a. less lesser ones and if you failed. enough times what's naturally going to. happen is that you won't have the same. agency in a large organization to impact. things too so then the the Counterpoint. to that would be well H how do you then. um create an environment with people um. are allowed to take risks and then. balance that with say a Spotify at this. point where we have a huge amount of.

responsibility too we have tens of. millions of creators that have their. livelihood of them platform so we can. just experiment with how we're paying. out and so on and so forth right and 550. million consumers uh we have to be. responsible with their data we can't um. you know put new things in front of them. without testing them and so on and so. forth and so um there there's this. constant tension between uh being. Innovative taking.

risks um and um you know at the same. time obviously being responsible and and. that's hard but that's all about culture. I'm absolutely obsessed with the subject. of culture because I really think it's. an under underappreciated factor in um. in why businesses are the way they are I. think you could basically take a person. off the street and the culture you drop. them in determines the behavior you'll. get from them yeah and so um and having. sat here and interviewed like Sir Alex. Ferguson's ex- teammates yeah you just.

come to learn that sir Alex Ferguson's. greatness wasn't strategy they all say. to me I remember Patrice and Evra said. to me that he walked in on a we were. playing Arsenal yeah on a Sunday in. London yeah and he walked in and just. said Lads listen beautiful weather. outside don't [ __ ] up my Sunday and. walked out because his thing was. management he just had this culture the. other thing they said to me which has. always stayed with me is Rio Ferdinand. said to me how many times do you think. he came into the training ground. dressing room yeah 26 years I I don't. know he go they said twice really didn't. need to come in there the culture was in. there yeah and it was self- policing.

when it's strong right yeah but you're. right sports teams the ones that do. really well um I was being told an. Arsenal story that probably can't share. but uh you could see bits and pieces of. mikel's um you know how he's pushing. that team culture at the moment too. which seems very fascinating uh with. some of the almost Antics uh he seems to. be doing this All or Nothing SE that was. um I think last season um as well um so. you can see that and I love studying.

that with sports teams because you know. it's 11 players on the pits how do how. do you make these people Jael together. um and form a team um hugely important. thing so I agree but but also like. imagine if you had 11 new players uh you. know yeah can you even form or Chelsea. these days too right um can you even uh. create a culture that way uh or is it. something that should be done. intentional um I mean if you're growing.

a company growing the number of. employees by 50% two years in a row most. of your employees probably won't have. been here even for a year um it will. change things whereas if you make. something where it's more of a gradual. change um it will uh it's easier I'm not. saying it's trivial but to to kind of. have the same culture um and I think. many Founders uh make that mistake when. overh high they don't understand the. implication of the culture they just. look at sort of more Warm Bodies but.

it's all these other subtle things that. starts breaking Daniel we've got a. closing tradition on this podcast where. the last guest leaves a question for the. next guest and I love this question. because um you don't like giving advice. so this is a perfect one for you um what. is the advice that someone could have. but didn't give you at 21 years old that. would have made you more successful at. the thing you now.

do I. um I think uh we we spoke about it um. I've gone through iterations of uh. trying to learn from other people to. model that uh huge part of that has been. kind of um optimizing for my strengths. and not covering my. weaknesses um and I wish. um that I um realized much earlier on.

that perhaps my superpower is that I'm. pretty good allaround her and not. particularly good at anything so I used. to think for instance that I had this. brilliant um you know model myself on. the Mark Zuckerberg of the world of like. I need to run every product meeting I. need to be the best product person in. the world just wasn't me and it took me. a while to realize that and be. comfortable um saying that right um. um but um I I have realized that I do. like a lot of different things I love.

learning about new things and perhaps. that is my superpower uh to realize that. the person who's doing PR that's quite. an interesting thing to learn about um. there are interesting things about. employment law how that came to be and. trying to understand that and you the. list goes on and on and on and I love. that um and I wish I would have probably. understood that earlier about myself. because that would have allowed myself.

to uh not model so much on other people. but but um somehow U be more. introspective and listen to. myself and I think that's really one of. the things I I take away from you said. very eloquently is that your proof that. entrepreneurs can Buck a number of. different Trends you know and still be. wildly successful and that evidence. means to someone like me that there's no. such thing as a entrepreneur in terms of. how they operate what they're interested.

in um and that there's many ways to be a. successful entrepreneur and it really. from what you've just said there the. most Surefire way of becoming a. successful entrepreneur is actually. looking inward versus looking outwards. at like oh how does Elon do it or how. does Mark do it or how does Daniel do it. yeah um which stays with me a lot. because it's really changed my thinking. on a few really important things that I. think I've been. yeah I've been limit I've been limiting. myself on um Daniel thank you so much.

thank you so much for having me building. such a great business and building a. business that that is um I guess it even. though you're number one still embodies. the kind of first principal Underdog. mentality there's something about. Spotify which is it feels I know you. probably don't like this word but I. don't know if you do but it feels more. like a family because I've met a lot of. the people there and I know a lot of. them yeah and they're like really nice. people that are very open books it. doesn't feel like a big corporate to me.

um it's very humble in it in its in its. approach but it's also very ambitious. yeah and it strikes that balance really. wonder wonderfully well and it's some. it's a company and a brand that I deeply. resonate with for that reason it's a. wonder wonderful thing and I think um. you know you talked about wanting to do. work that brings good to the world the. good to the world that Spotify has done. in my view is in quantifiable because I. mean music is a is a wonderful thing but. what you're doing now in podcasting as. well and how you've really owned and.

driven that industry forward for people. like me to have these longer form more. contextual conversations I think it's. hard to measure the good that's done to. the world but it's certainly thank you. an important one thank you that means a. lot to me and and you're right um you. know it's about being humble while doing. it but um you know ambition and. humbleness may not seem like they go. hand hand in hand and so I think you. capture the essence of what we like. Spotify to be at best which is super. ambitious but yet hum humble uh with all. of his past success all of that stuff.

that we're still learning super curious. I I've never told the story before but. when I went I went on a trip to Sweden. and I was there with some of your. colleagues so gustof who's head of. product right and Alex who's head of. business everything that makes money and. I was there with Shaquille as well who's. a good friend and colleague of yours and. has been for a long time Y and they sat. me down at a table for for about 30. minutes or an hour yeah and said. you're a podcaster Steve yeah tell us. everything we need to know about. podcasting how can we make um Spotify.

better for you as a podcaster and for. the very people at the top of Spotify to. sit and listen so. intently to me and then to act upon what. I said and then give me feedback weeks. later and say okay we're now you know. working on this having listened to you. it's not something that a big corporate. that was arrogant or very sure of. themselves or had lost that mentality. whatever do that stayed with me because. it's hard to do that when you get big to. really be curious and humble and that's. exactly what Spotify is so I wish I wish. you all the luck in the world and I'm. sure you won't need it because you've.

got a wonderful culture of um people and. great people around you but just wanted. to say thank you for that well no thank. you and I mean again yes we listen but. it's also because you are innovating uh. on your side and uh uh with all the. aspects even seeing your studio here. today it's kind of like bringing it to. the next level so that's that's amazing. to see that you're able to do that. amazing to bring these conversations to. the world and we all get the benefit to. learn from them as well without maybe. having the opportunity like you have to. meet all these individuals too and.

that's going to bring a lot of growth. Journeys uh for a lot of people too so. thank. you we've got an exciting new sponsor on. this podcast and I couldn't be more. excited to announce that we're now. working with Shopify and if there's one. tool that I use pretty much every single. day in my businesses that is certainly. Shopify I'm sure you've all heard about. Shopify but for some reason if you. haven't then Shopify is is the Commerce. platform that is revolutionizing. millions of businesses worldwide whether. you're starting a side hustle a new.

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