Sleep Expert: Why You're Still Dead Tired After 8 Hours of Sleep | Dr. Andy Galpin

Everything you see in this table has a. strong scientific evidence that it will. help with sleep. >> So, we're going to dig into all of those. in great detail. >> So, the first one is a really good one. Kiwis. >> Kiwis. >> Yeah. So, there's been good studies on. them. So, if you have two to three kiwis. before bed, you'll see people sleeping. better. Next on our list is sleep. divorce. People generally don't sleep as. well when you're in the same bed as. others. Next, we want this. >> This is more evidence than the rest of. these things combined, and it is. effective. Another one to think about is. sound. And. >> it really matters sound when you sleep. >> Yeah. as much if not more of any other. factor. There's also screen usage,

light, your pillow and wearables. But. the other thing is we're spending more. on sleep and sleep is getting worse. And. for this last 20 years, I've been doing. science coaching and education that. enhances human performance. And I've. been fortunate to work with the world's. most elite athletes, entrepreneurs, leaders, and even 50% of athletes have a. clinical sleep disorder. It gets worse. 70 to 80% of people who have clinical. sleep apnea will go undiagnosed. And for. women, it's somewhere in the. neighborhood of 90 to 95% and it is. delletterious to your health because.

it's highly associated with long-term. death risk, cognitive function, mood. regulation, performance, recovery, metabolic health, and it happens for a. bunch of different reasons and we can go. through them, but we look at the 8. billion person population. We need more. people to pay attention to their health. And so I just want to get the best. possible out of people. So this could be. energy, could be metabolic, it could be. cognitive function, could be muscle. growth or fat loss. And so I want to. give every person listening to this the. opportunity to reach their goals and. dreams. >> I'd love to go through all of those. And. you have a 5 4321 method. What is that?

>> Yeah, it's just a little thing I came up. with that says, "All right, can we help. people with fat loss?" So the first. thing to think about is. this is super interesting to me. My team. given me this report to show me how many. of you that watch this show subscribe. And some of you have told us according. to this that you are unsubscribed from. the channel randomly. So, favor to ask. all of you. Please could you check right. now if you've hit the subscribe button. if you are a regular viewer of this show. and you like what we do here. We're. approaching quite a significant landmark. on this show in terms of a subscriber.

number. So, if there was one simple free. thing that you could do to help us, my. team, everyone here to keep this show. free, to keep it improving year over. year and week over week, it is just to. hit that subscribe button and to double. check if you've hit it. Only thing I'll. ever ask of you, do we have a deal? If. you do it, I'll tell you what I'll do. I'll make sure every single week, every. single month, we fight harder and harder. and harder and harder to bring you the. guests and conversations that you want. to hear. I've stayed true to that. promise since the very beginning of the. Dio and I will not let you down. Please. help us. Really appreciate it. Let's get.

on with the show. Dr. Andy Gin, before we started. recording, you said you want to do. scientific research, coaching for your. clients, and you said education. You also kind of alluded to the fact. that you were less interested in money. and these kinds of things. So the. question is why why do you do what you. do and what is it you're doing and who. are you doing it for? >> The most concise way I can say it is I. want to give every person listening to. this the opportunity to reach their.

goals and dreams. You want to look this. way or not look this way and you want to. perform this way. How can we get you. there? I want to remove those barriers. And if you get there or don't get there, it was because of you. It was not. because something was holding you back. that was in your way. >> Mhm. >> And so that's why I get equally excited. to work with the best linebacker in the. NFL and some person who just wants to. wake up and not be in back pain. tomorrow. >> So tell me who you've worked with then. Who has been a client of yours? >> Yeah, I've been fortunate to work with.

the world's most elite athletes for 20. years at this point. So this is your. number one draft picks in every major. sport. Hall of Famers, Sai young. winners, MVPs, Olympic gold medalists in. many sports, world champion fighters. We've worked with hemoplegics and. paraplegic individuals. We've worked. with, you know, the cliche executives, the mom and pops, the person dealing and. struggling with parmenopause. Like, we've really done most of it. >> And what kinds of symptoms or goals do.

they come to you with? >> So, I'll go broad categories and. specifics below that. broad categories. we tend to say is either rebuild or. upgrade. >> Mhm. >> Rebuild is there's something wrong, hurt, broken, damaged. I'm overweight. I. can't fix it. I'm dying from sleep. restriction. I have a clinical sleep. disorder. I have some injury. I have. some huge clear limitation that needs to. be resolved. The second half is what we. call upgrade. I don't have any of that. Feel pretty good, feel okay. Now, I just.

want to get the best possible out of my. life. So, this could be energy. It could. be metabolic. It could be cognitive. function. Why I can accomplish that and. our our folks I work with can is because. I'm after the physiology. >> What's what does you mean by that. physiology? >> It's your biomolelecular signature. Do. you have a muscle imbalance that's. creating neck pain that's making it hard. to sleep and that's giving you a hard. time regulating your emotions. It could. be classic things like inflammation. everything that is inside of your body.

and both the way that it is running and. expressing itself. >> And what are your credentials? >> So my PhD is in what's called human. bioenergetics. I started my lab in 2011. >> Your lab? >> Mhm. So I'm an active scientist. I'm a. professor. That's my real job for the. most part. And so we conduct and. disseminate research there that enhances. human performance. And then I've started. a number of companies and privately. coach people. That's what I've been. doing for over 20 years. We talked about. the different personas and the types of. problems they come to you with. If you.

had to, and this might be quite. difficult, order them in terms of the. frequency in which people come to you. with these issues. What would that sort. of top five be? >> I'll break them from our professional. athletes and I'll probably spend more. time on non-professional athletes. Assuming u most of your audience is. probably not a professional. >> I won't take that. >> Pretty close. >> I won't take that, guys. >> 50/50. We'll assume 5050. Yeah. Yeah. Great. The athletes typically come to us. under two circumstances. Um, frequent. injuries I'm getting or tanked energy,

bad sleep. They they deal with the same. human problems we deal with, right? The. other one is what we'll just say is the. upgrade, the optimizer. Feel great, feel. young. I just want to get ahead of. things and I want to catch things before. they start. The general public is a. similar breakdown because you have a lot. of people who are like, I do feel pretty. good. I'm great, but I don't want to. play the game backwards. I don't want. problems to come up and then I got to go. scrambling and figure it out. So, let's. collect baseline data now. Let's get. ahead of things. Let's predict problems. before they arise, but I've only got a.

few minutes a day, >> right? I'm not trying to like take over. my whole life with all this stuff. Like, probably the most common ones are things. like sleep and energy, performance. goals, can't seem to get stronger, can't. seem to lose that little bit of weight, maybe touch of brain fog, I don't feel. as sharp. Well, I'd love to go through. all of those. Sleep, energy, performance, strength, struggles, weight, but also I've got my blood test. results here, which um Andy has taken a. look at for me. It's not all good. Okay,

so that's a pre-warning. It's not all. good, but he's going to run me through. my blood test results in this episode, tell me how I improve things. And there. was a couple of deficiencies that I had. that I had no idea that I had cuz I. thought I was doing everything right, which have completely changed my. supplement, um but also my behavior. generally. And also you've got this here. which is a gentleman I believe whose. blood test results you did similar age. to me and you took him from not so good. to great and we'll talk about that as. well. So hold on for a second while we.

we touch first on the subject of um. sleep and energy which is one of the. first thing you talked about. A lot of. people listening struggle with sleep and. they also in their waking life feel. variances in their energy. Um, if we. start then with sleep, what are the like. most people problems of sleep? >> This is a great question. We'll start. off and in fact I think this is a nice. framing of everything we're going to. talk about. We want to be weary of what. we call health anxiety. >> Mhm. >> This is overfixation, over concern,

worrying too much about little things. with your blood work, with your sleep, everything. You're in a really great. spot. So, we can look for some upgrade, but we want to be careful of pushing. that line. Why that also matters is if. we look at the 8 billion or so person. population, we probably need more people. to pay attention to their health than to. not pay attention to their health, right? We're not in an abundance of. people caring too much. But if you're. listening to this show, you are probably. not representative of the general. population. And so I want to be really.

careful of everything I'm about to say. for the next couple of hours. I don't want to create health anxiety. I. don't want you to be so terrified to. touch a receipt that it sends you in a. three-day tail spin. Anytime we're talking about a health or. performance, we want to run the spectrum. of disease to optimization. We should. not be playing around with optimization. performance if we're in the presence of. a medical disease. And why I say that is. sleep is probably the biggest place of. clinical disease that exists that no one. knows about.

Somewhere in the neighborhood of 70 to. 80% of people who have clinical sleep. apnea will go undiagnosed. >> Wow. If that existed for a broken bone, >> right? If that existed for diabetes, you'd be like insane. It gets worse. 50%. depending on which study you look at of. athletes have a clinical sleep disorder. For women, it's somewhere in the. neighborhood of 90 to 95% of women that. have clinical sleep apnea will go.

undiagnosed. >> Why? >> If you were to look at me and you would. say, if I said, "Stephen, you think I. have apnea?" He said, "No." Right? If I. were to bring in a whole table of 10. people and I said, "Pick the person in. here least likely to have sleep apnnea.". You'd find the smallest girl. >> True. >> You don't think about apnea as something. that can happen unless you're big and. fat. Women also are less likely than men to. complain.

They're less likely to think about it as. an anatomical issue. They're going to. charge it to hormones. to their. menstrual cycle, to their cognitive. load, to what it's the demands that it. is to be mom. All these are true. By the. way, it is also in the same point true. You could have apnea that has nothing to. do with body composition. >> And let's define apnea for a second. >> You stop breathing at night. >> and that wakes you up. >> Sometimes it doesn't. No, >> that's the that's the problem is it. won't necessarily wake you up, but it is.

delterious to your health. It's highly. associated with consequences from. long-term death risk to short-term. cognitive function, emotion, mood. regulation, performance, recovery, metabolic health. It's really really. nasty. In fact, one of the larger things. uh that can go wrong in your health is. is not breathing at night. >> This might be a silly question, but does. sleep apnnea disrupt your sleep? >> It it can. >> So, it doesn't always. >> Doesn't always. Okay. >> And this is why do you think it's so. poorly diagnosed? So the classic.

giveaways, if you were that person who. wakes up four counties because you snore. so loud, snoring doesn't necessarily. mean you have sleep apnnea, but it's a. really strong indicator. That's one form. of it. So apnea happens for a bunch of. different reasons. More evidence. recently has suggested like neck size. was this kind of original thing that we. say like a big neck is just a problem. Doesn't look like that's as true, but. certainly it is true. As you increase. obesity rates, you'll see an increase in.

apnea as well. So, what's happening here. is now you're talking about I'll call it. anatomical or physical like something. physically is landing on your neck and. your tongue and your throat, your larynx. and esophagus and it's stopping your. breathing. And why this matters is when. you're standing here or sitting here in. this chair, you're in this vertical. position and as you go and lay down, anatomy shifts. You also have a lot of. research showing that the larger the. human being, the more fluid they have, which is pretty normal, right? So, a.

person who's twice your size will have. twice the amount of water in their body. that you do. Imagine if you had I mean, we'll take this beverage right here. Why. do you have red wine? Well, anyways, we'll come back in case you get thirsty. >> So, you see the water is sitting. vertically, right? >> If I were to shift this cup. horizontally, the water would shift and. it would it would balance horizontally. to where the gap in the air would be on. the top, right? That happens in your. body. So imagine this top piece start up. here. That's your neck. Now when you lay. down, your neck is over here. And I.

would tip this over, but it would spill. everywhere. That fluid then shifts up. into your neck. So it's not even. necessarily a physical size thing, but. it's the fluid associated with being a. larger human being that the fluid shift. can happen. >> Mhm. >> What we're now finding is a whole series. of other types of apnea. Now there are. neural causes to it. There are. environmental causes. um there are. positional causes. And so as a classic. example to round the story out, traditionally if you're told you have. apnea, you're going to be given one of.

about three choices. Medication, what's called a CPAP device, >> right? So that's the big like Vader. breathing machine. or potentially what's called an oral. appliance. It's a mouthpiece that kind. of repositions your jaw and neck. I'm. for all of those treatments. Why they. all have such low success rates is. because they're given out generically. You come in, you have apnea, you get the. same stuff. Now, what the field is. moving towards is precision and saying.

you have this specific type of apnea. An. oral appliance won't help here. You. actually need this. surgical intervention. >> I was looking at some of the data here. and it says that sleep apnea is very. common globally, much more common than I. expected. It says men who are. middle-aged. have a 24 to 34%. prevalence of apnea. Women 9 to 17%. Uh seniors. >> 30 to 60%.

>> That's right. >> Post-menopausal women 25%. So yeah, rough numbers. That means that listening. now, if you're a middle-aged man. listening, if there's three of you. listening right now, one of you. statistically might have apnea. Now, that's clinical sleep apnnea. That. doesn't even count subclinical. >> And if you're a senior listening now, which is 65 years older, there's a 30 to. 60% chance. Wow. >> Depending on some numbers you see, Stephen, you'll see a billion people. across the globe.

>> Yeah, that's what it says. It says a. billion people. Yeah. >> Now, that's only apnea. That's not. insomnia. That's not all the other sleep. disorders. That's simply the one variant. of it. >> Why is this happening? Because again. from an evolutionary perspective, sleep. apnnea couldn't have been a great for. survival. >> Yeah. Three primary reasons why this is. happening. The first is the fact that. our our environment is physically. changing. Our ancestors never had to deal with. this. Two, our current solutions for testing.

are either insanely outdated or. incredibly difficult to get to. The third major one. is our solutions that we provide people. in public communication are wildly. generic. Thus not helpful. In fact, if. you were to pull everyone listening. right now, sleep comes up and you go, "Oh, great." They're going to tell me to. sleep in a quiet room that's cold and. dark and they're like, "I've heard it. all." And you have. Where we need to get. to next is how do we help people find. these precision solutions based on their.

type of sleep issues. But that's that's. the three-part reason uh why this stuff. is happening. I'd like to go into all. three of them. I also would like to just. pause on the diagnosis part because. there'll be people listening here that. might have a suspicion that they need. help. But again, they're going off their. feelings. >> Yeah. >> How can they know for sure what help. they need and what their problem is? >> Yeah. I always start with subjective. How do you feel? If you feel good, let's. now like immediately take a breath. >> You have good energy. You wake up. You.

feel good. Like everyone's going to be a. little bit tired. We also don't we've actually had a I've. been working with for several years a. very close friend of you and I. We. constantly have to battle because he'll. just get like really honestly terrified. because he gets sleepy at the end of the. day. And I'm like bro that's the point. People that are hard chargers, high. performers are actually afraid of being. tired. We have to recognize and realize. that is natural and needed. You need to. feel a little bit sleepy in the early. afternoon and you should feel tired,

unmotivated, lack of focus at the end of. the day. >> What if I didn't used to? Because that's. what people they compare it to old. version of themselves. >> Sure. Again, we can say natural. When. you are sub 25, like you're you're just a powerhouse, right? When you're past 25, we shouldn't. just accept frailty. We shouldn't accept. a permanent decline. But we do have to. start to realize we're not going to have. the energy of a 20-year-old. Like it's. just it's just not typically super.

realistic. And if you do, you're. probably getting there exogenously, right? Stimulants and other things which. have a place, but we just want to be a. little bit careful of those things. >> We'll talk about stimulants, melatonin, and all these things. But going back to. this point of diagnosis, yeah. >> So Jenny who doesn't have much money. >> Y. >> how does she get. >> Okay, great. So one thing we can do and. we can put these in your show notes for. you for free. There are a ton of. completely free short questionnaires. that are scientifically validated. >> Okay? >> You can do these for RLS, you can do. them for insomnia, you can do them for.

apnea, you can do them for circadian. disruptions and disorders, you can do. them for chronoype. Are you a a morning. person or tons and I'll put as many of. these for free. So my answer there would. be start with one of those. >> Okay. >> If you flag that and you want to move up. to the next step, then you kind of have. a couple of different ways. And your two. options are what we'll call wearables at. home tech. These are typically we'll. call the $100 to $600 range. >> Mhm. >> And then past that, you have a true. medical option, which is a sleep.

hospital. This is when you would go. into, you know, the hospital, you go. into that weird room, and you sit there, you get all the wires, someone looks at. you through a window, you sleep in for. one night. You can see from the look on. your face sort of, you're just like, "All right, who wants to do that?". >> Mhm. If you have a true disease at this. point, for the most part, the sleep. hospital, depending on the disease, it. is where you need to get to. Now, what. our group is working on and others is. can we bring the sleep possible into the. home. It's not super affordable at this.

point. We're working to get it there, but that is the clear future. If you. have insurance, take that validated. questionnaire I just said. Go to your. doctor and say, "Here's what I scored. this thing. Will you order me that sleep. study?" Mhm. >> is a giant pain. I know it, but it is it. is probably worth it. If you want to use. the wearable, you can do that. The. problem with the wearables is numerous. They are awesome at things like. awareness, at accountability, right? They're pretty good for things like.

total sleep time. They're really, really. bad. And a major pitfall for wearables. is predicting things like deep sleep and. REM sleep. Do you know what I you know I. was I was thinking about I was thinking. about certain times where um I've done. certain things behaviorally and then I. got in bed woke up feeling terrible and. my wearable said to me. >> you had a bad really bad night's sleep. and I could kind of put two and two. together and kind of establish cause and. effect and I could almost I guess test.

that then going forward and say okay. don't do that or maybe get in bed. earlier or the heat was was way too high. whatever it might be and I could sort of. AB test my way to a better outcome. Yeah. So they can give you things like. total sleep time. As I said, what you. want to be careful of are the. aggregate sleep effectiveness score, sleep quality score. That's the stuff. that directionally won't be there. But. you actually said something interesting. a second ago, which is you felt worse. >> Mhm. >> That's the only directional thing we. need to have to pay attention to. If you.

go, "Wow, I felt worse today.". >> And then you can go backwards and go, "Yeah, that's because I did A, B, and C. yesterday or I felt better today.". That's not the only metric. And to be. really clear, I'm not advocating to. ditch all the wearables. We use them. extensively. It's just really being careful about. what data from those we pay attention. to. >> Mhm. >> And what we don't. So stuff that we do. now is find big themes. that they're often times missing. Here's. a good example. We had 1,200 days of. data from I think it was an aura ring.

And we are actually able to find that in. in one of our clients for every one drop. in resting heart rate. So his resting. heart rate say went from 65 beats per. minute to 64. He got six more minutes of sleep. And so we were like, "Okay, great. You. want to add an hour to your sleep. Let's. continue to work on your cardiovascular. fitness." Every time he got more fit, his resting heart rate dropped. He slept. more. Additionally, every time you put. and you invest in down regulation,

you'll lower your resting heart rate. going into bed. You will sleep longer. So, he was a classic case of like, I try. to go to bed, I do all the things, but I. just can't stay in bed. So, the key. there to get him the more sleep is to. put his physiology in a position that. would allow him to have more sleep. And. for him, like that was the canary in the. coal mine. So, that's the type of stuff. where wearables can be like you can't. replace that. Not only from a data, but. from a coaching perspective. It was so. easy for me to communicate to him, here's your data.

This is our target. And he's an. extraordinarily busy person. He's like, great, I got one thing to pay attention. to. Do whatever it takes to keep that. heart rate low going into bed. Copy. that. >> What in his case was making his heart. rate high. >> When it comes to something like sleep, anything that is in your physical. environment, that's in your lifestyle, that's in your physiology can impact it. I mentioned earlier one of the reasons. why sleep is getting worse is because. these physical changes in our. environment. annual spend on sleep is. like 600 billion right now, but yet we. have seen a 60inute drop in total sleep.

time over the last 60 years. So you're. seeing an inverse. We're spending more. on sleep and sleep is getting worse. I. think your team printed out some cards. here and we can go through them. The. first one is a really good one. The. world is physically brighter. In fact, there's data from NASA satellite data. that can look and say the world is. physically brighter now. you're expected. to be communicating with Singapore and. Australia and the US, which means you're. going to be up later. Your business is. going to be on. Your lights are going to. be on. There's also a phenomenon called.

skylow, where the light from Earth is. going up, hitting the clouds, and being. shot back down. And so, it's keeping our. world brighter. So, when you hear people. talk about things like you got to have. these blackout curtains and masks, and. you're thinking like, I never did that. when I was a kid. Like, what's the big. deal? It's because of this. I mean. there's some graphs that I found here. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Which kind of demonstrate this which. I'll put up on the screen. >> Yeah. More people are moving into urban. environments. And if you look at some of. the studies, not to be dramatic, but. some of the studies have found things as.

high as like anxiety and depression are. up 20 plus% when you move into the city. And that's largely attributed to things. like light and sound. It's extremely. bright and extremely loud in cities. It. doesn't mean they're bad or you can't. live in them. It just simply means. that's why you have to take extra steps. I think a lot of people listening to. this will think, "Well, Andy, my my. bedroom's very dark.". >> Great. >> But that's actually not what you're. saying, is it? Because the way I was. thinking about it is we are here in New. York City now, and if I walked to the.

shop last night at 10:00 p.m. >> Yeah. >> and walked back, I was exposed to so so. much light outside at a critical time. when my body should be not exposed to. light that it's going to impact me even. when I get into that dark room. >> It goes even better than that. There's. evidence now that the light exposure you. have both in the morning and throughout. the day dramatically counteracts what. you just mentioned. So yes, you went for. that walk, you went for that thing when. light was still out and you had a. brighter light exposure in we'll just. call it the 3 or 4 hours before bed than.

you would have had ever in the past. >> Mhm. >> But you can mitigate that damage by. seeing light appropriately during the. day and in the morning. >> Oh, okay. >> And and this is actually something my. friend. Andrew Huberman has talked about for. years now and I'm like I've always joked. and laughed at him but then I'm like. damn he nailed this. Like he was way. ahead in this one. Light exposure in the. morning will impact your sleep at night. the next day. He always explains it as. setting your circadian rhythm but it's. more than that actually. It's like.

that's the part where I was like yeah. whatever. Like I'm in the same time. zone. Why do I care? But now I'm like, "Oh." Because then if you were exposed. to high amounts of light later in the. day, that exposure to light earlier will. help reduce that damage. >> There's this whole cascade of things. that influence when it is time to be. awake and when it is time to go to. sleep. And this is both hormonal based. as well as neurally based. So your brain. will shut down or activate in response. to light, in response to exercise, in.

response to arousal, in response to. food, in response to stimulants and a. whole host of other things. That light. earlier in the day sets that rhythm. >> Okay? So it's like starting the. >> it starts the clock. It starts the sleep. pressure. This is uh oh this is the. graph of rural versus urban plot. And so. yeah, I mean you can see that pretty. clearly. The red line here is the noise. in in a rural environment. And this is. the noise here. The typical number you. want to see um for sound at night is. like 35 dB, right? So if you see the.

rural environment, you're cruising at. about that. And you see the urban. environment, you're looking in the 60 to. 7 as a baseline. >> And it really matters sound when you. sleep. >> Tons. >> Really? >> Yeah. As much if not more of any other. factor that the big thing with sound is. inconsistency. A lot of people will do. things like uh put a sound machine in. the room. >> Most people put them too loud because of. that thing. So you put them pretty. common default is like 40 to 50 dB for a. sound machine. More the data suggests. sub 40 especially for kids if you're. using a sound machine for your children.

Most people put them too close and too. loud. >> What's a sound machine? >> Uh just a little device that makes a. white noise. And what that does is it. cancels out a bunch of low-level. inconsistent sounds. Oh, >> okay. >> So the dog getting up, the window. creaking, the you know the car driving. by and so it can kind of cancel that. noise level out. How come I can have. like a great night's sleep listening to. a podcast falling asleep whereas my. partner can't? She needs silence and I I. I almost feel like I need to listen to. something to fall asleep. >> Most likely you would do better if you.

didn't do that. >> Really? >> Yeah. >> You turn them off before you go to. sleep, right? >> No. >> Yeah. Okay. >> That will never lead to your best sleep. >> Okay. >> What happens is you get to bed and. something is happening cognitively. >> and you're like, I need something to. switch me off. >> to distract me. Yeah. >> Great. If we took that away from you, you might sleep worse because you're. going to sit there and struggle through. that moment. >> If you wanted to go from upgrade, we. would say, "Okay, let's figure out what. is actually a way for you to. downregulate cognitively,

give you that same thing that won't then. disrupt your sleep throughout the. night.". >> Have you dealt with people in that. situation before? >> Super common. Podcasts are an incredibly. common one with that. Uh TV, books. My. philosophy is let's step back and solve. causes. Let's solve constraints rather. than mask them. Uh you've got a host of. different supplements over here. Everything you see in this table has. moderate to strong scientific evidence. that it will help with sleep. >> What are those things? >> So lovely, delicious looking tart cherry.

juice and I'll go through why that is. There you've got some chamomile tea. You. would see this in a supplement form of. apogenine. It's a really common way of. that as kind of like distilled. chamomile. Um look at these lovely. kiwis. What's funny here is this is. actually what happens in in research. They will give people two to three. kiwis. They will eat them right before. bed and you will very routinely see. people sleeping better after ingestion. of kiwis. Um other things that are high on the. evidence-based list are of course.

magnesium and various forms. More of the. research now on magnesium for sleep is. turning to a particular form called. magnesium bislycinate. um rather than 38. That's up there as. well. Uh, you will also see things like. omega-3. This is your common fish oil. Oh, this is actually interesting because. this popped up on your labs as something. we have to work on. >> Oh, my test. >> Yeah, we'll come back to that in a. second. >> Okay. >> And then of course you've got melatonin, right? The issue with all these is the.

same that you have with your podcast. These are doing the exact same thing. So, one thing we could do is say ditch. the podcast and let's go with one or. multiple of these options because. they're doing the same thing. They're. cognitive turnoff. Apen or chamomile. specifically will play that role. It is. a reasonable switch that says frontal. cortex turn off. And so, you're getting. there through the podcast where you. could get through theirs through food or. supplements if you'd like as well. >> Kiwis, Kiwis have scientific evidence.

that they improve sleep for some people. It's really common. If there's like. levels to this, you'd probably like. level one, two, and three. Level one. being things like actually surprising. enough magnesium, chamomile, melatonin, of course, lots of randomized control. trials. >> Level one being the best, >> the best of the best, >> the best, highest quality. >> And you'd say what? Magnesium, kiwis. >> Yeah, kiwis would probably be like a. level two or level three. >> Okay. >> So, there's been good studies on them. enough to put them on this table. Enough.

to say there's data there. So, you're. getting some product below it. In this. case, epigenine, in this case, other. phyitochemicals. that either reduce a little bit of. cognitive function, they reduce arousal, they put you in some sort of checkout. state. >> And then there's this one over here, melatonin. Yeah. >> That a lot of people are aware of. >> Yeah. >> Strong. What level is melatonin? >> So melatonin probably has more evidence. than the rest of these things combined. because it's a medicine. It's a drug. There's a ton of research on it from. children to aging to bone health and.

tons of other stuff, right? It's a. hormone. You're going to be able to to. move some units with this one. Um, nobody is going to be super concerned. about risk factor profiles with eating. two kiwis, >> but you start getting to the level of. something like a melatonin and now you. have to have real conversations about. risk versus benefits. We typically don't. use melatonin. at the dosage that's normal. So a common. dosage for melatonin is like 5. milligrams, sometimes even up to 10. >> Wow. >> We will typically use like.3.

maybe 0.5. So about a tenth that dose. A. lot of times we're trying to find like. one milligrams, cut them in half, kind. of things like that. The only real. reason we use melatonin outside of some. fringe cases is when we actually. legitimately need to reset circadian. rhythm, travel, jet lag, things like that. Uh and it is effective. and it is useful there. It is safe in. small doses. Where people mistake. melatonin is I use it every night to go. to sleep and or I wake up in the middle.

of the night, can't go back to sleep, I. go grab a melatonin. >> Why is that bad? >> It doesn't work. >> It doesn't work. >> No, because the thing that melatonin is. supposed to do is realign circadian. rhythm. If you're in the middle of the. night, you're already in that rhythm. It's not going to do anything. You would. in fact, not to not want people to do. this, but you would actually be better. reaching for something like a chamomile. perhaps because if you're having a hard. time getting back to sleep cognitively, this is not going to do it. The other. issue is we've done a lot of morning. urine testing. There's enough studies.

that look at the dosage that's actually. in the pill versus on the label and they. can be up to 100x higher. >> 100x. >> And we see this in morning urine. We. have seen people who are consistently. tired. Their sleep doesn't look horrible. They're doing all the right things. It's. cold. It's dark. They're meditating. They're doing all this stuff. They're. popping in even a moderate dose of. melatonin. And the amount of melatonin. the next day in their urine is 100x the. upper end of the reference range, which.

means they're spending the rest of their. next day in a hyperdosed melatonin. state. So they have to live then on. stimulants to get better. >> How would they feel and horrible? >> They would feel sluggish and. >> you wake up the next day and you're. like, man, it's what we call sleep. inertia. >> You're wildly groggy. You can't get out. of bed or you're just getting throughout. the day. This is a like don't talk to me. until I've had my coffee kind of. response, right? This is not a normal. waking physiology that you should be. going through.

>> Presumably, that's just melatonin from. sort of cheap sources that haven't been. tested. That's going to knock off a huge. part of your problem, right? Only this. is why we'll always say you don't, no. one needs supplements. Like no essential. person needs to have any supplement to. live a great happy healthy life. If you. choose to use supplements though, just buy them from third-party tested. transparent. companies that place their testing on. their websites that give you open access. to it for for these exact reasons.

Vitamin D's has a similar profile of. inaccuracy. The other issue with that. then simply let's say you're buying it. from a high quality source. You're. dosing it too much and you're taking it. too late. So take it earlier than you. think before bed so that your body has a. chance to break it down before the next. morning. >> What kind of time and how quickly acting. is it? >> It's person to person dependent, but a. lot of times you'll see things like an. hour before. Uh some people will feel a. response in 10 to 15 minutes. Some. people will feel it closer to an hour. But that's a pretty good window. >> Hang on. If it's 2 a.m. in the morning.

and you're and you're getting in bed, don't take it. Don't take it at all. >> Okay, >> we're going to use this in very specific. situations and then we're coming off of. it. This is this should not be a part of. your nightly routine most of the time. >> What exactly is going on in my brain. when I take melatonin? Cuz a lot of. people take it and we know that it makes. us feel tired but but understanding the. mechanism I think will help us under. understand the application. >> So it actually doesn't really make you. feel tired. That's part of the issue. >> Oh. >> the mechanism is a circadian shift. So. it's telling your indogenous system that. this is nighttime. So it doesn't hit you. with like a oh my eyes are there. This.

hits you with a shift in cortisol. This. hits you with a shift in a whole cascade. of epinephrine, norepinephrine, serotonin that are moving around and. saying this is the millu that you need. to be in that is consistent with a sleep. pattern. >> Okay. So, I take it and then it. regulates my other hormones which would. be getting in the way of me feeling. tired theoretically. >> That's probably more appropriate to what. it does. >> Okay. Because yeah, I've taken it a. couple of times again always for jet lag. issues and within about 30 45 minutes I.

feel a bit drowsy and then I find my. eyes going shutting and I'm off. >> Great. And then you get out of those. that 2 or 3 day window, >> put it back away and you're off and. going. That's a good use case for it. The mistake is when this is like I can't. go to bed without. >> I'm generally scared of all these things. because um. >> honestly anything that's effective I'm. more scared of. >> and so sure. >> it's really effective which makes me. hesitant to use it frequently. >> Yeah, >> it's a good default position to be in by. the way. >> It's a good strategy. >> Yeah, cuz I one of the things you learn. from doing a podcast like this is you.

just learn that everything has a. trade-off. >> always. >> And I and again this might not be. logically sound but I assume that the. bigger the upside the bigger the tra. like the trade I'm making on the other. side as a general rule. So, do you know. the only thing that I've still not been. able to, I guess, understand the full. trade-off of is coffee. >> because the upside is so significant. No. one can articulate to me the downside. other than they say if you have it after. midday, it's going to. >> impact your sleep. But I'm like, come. on, there's got to be. >> The phrase that I'll say in my class all. the time is there's no free passes in.

physiology. >> Mhm. >> With coffee specifically, there actually. we have a meta analysis led by my. colleague Dr. Ben House puts this. together. But if you look at the. research on caffeine and sleep, it's. very interesting because if you go. through sleep deprivation, your physical. and cognitive performance goes down. No. surprise there. Coffee can offset that. Caffeine specifically is is the thing. But what it doesn't do, at least the. data and the meta analysis suggests, is.

it doesn't actually put you back into. the augmented spot. Meaning if you did. you sleep great last night? >> I think so. Yeah. >> Full night. Okay. Let's just say you're. there. If we took you out and we had you. throw that medicine ball and we did a. grip strength tester and we did what. some sprints up and down or whatever you. wanted to do, you would perform well. And then if we gave you caffeine, you'd. perform better. It's why we call it. erggoenicate. It's a performance. enhancer. Caffeine is really effective. primarily at endurance based events, but. it is a stimulatory thing that people. will use. So let's just say you have.

normal baseline performance, then. caffeine augments that performance. If. you go into sleep debt, the sleep itself. will reduce your performance. And the. coffee can bring you back to normal, but. it won't bring you back to that. augmented state that you had when you. were rested and caffeinated. This is. important because a lot of people will. be like, "Ah, I'll throw away the sleep. or I won't worry about it as much. because I'll just take more stimulants. tomorrow and I feel great." You will. feel as good, but you will not perform. as well. So, what you need to perform at.

your best if you're a caffeine user is. to be both well-rested and then. caffeinated. Another thing you want to. pay attention to in your sleep. environment, um, labeled ergonomics here. is your pillow, your bed, your mattress. This is mostly. based on feel. >> Is there any no- go in this regard? >> Not really. >> Not really. >> No. Unless, let's say you have a. sleeping partner and you're sleeping in. a bed that is too small and that results. in you hitting each other or touching. each other and you don't like that. So. other than those uh the framework.

themselves there there's really no. nothing to be concerned with. >> What about these like eight beds? >> Asleep is fantastic. So asleep is not a. bed it's a cover. >> which regulates temperature. If you are. in a bedding situation where you're. getting hot then that's a problem. So if. then an eight will help you regulate. that temperature it's a great solution. If you're not in that situation then. you're going to be just fine. So. temperature regulation is a really big. deal. >> and you'll quite often see people that. do that. Whether that's getting a.

product like that or it's getting a. sheet that's cooler or a mattress that. is better with ventilation, then you'll. often times see them sleep a little bit. better. Next on our list is screen. usage. Everyone has been told and you. know perhaps nothing's more destructive. when you're sleeping screen. What's more. interesting here is the stuff that. people generally don't talk about. It's. not the fact that necessarily screen. usage is shooting your face with a bunch. of blue light. What's more dangerous. about your screen is the arousal.

associated with the search for novelty. >> The search for novelty. What does that. mean? >> You're engaging in a podcast, social media, a game is puzzle driven. It is solution. It is interest. It is. engagement. It is search for the next. That's the stuff that more likely than. not cause sleep disturbance. disturbances. In the studies that have looked at. things like TV time versus tablet versus. phone versus reading, those all can be.

equally dangerous to sleep. Here is the. example. I am a TV before bed guy. A. giant TV with a blast of blue light. I. sleep great with that. My wife is really. struggles with light before bed. she. will read and yet she chooses to read. things that I don't think she should be. reading for a night and then she'll wake. up because of the topics that she's. reading where I'm watching things on TV. that are you know documentaries on. Ulysius Grant or something and you're.

just like that is the least engaging. thing ever. So it's not the fact that. the light is there. Um I use that stuff. much like you use your podcasts which is. my entire day is so driven by somebody. wanting my attention and time. I have to. have something that gives me a cognitive. switch that says you get to turn off. >> I wanted to add something to this which. I've been thinking about this week. So. in Meta, Meta own Instagram and Facebook. and WhatsApp etc. In Meta's earnings. call this week, Mark Zuckerberg talked. about how they had changed the.

recommendation algorithm on social media. apps using AI. And this was something. that we've always forecasted would. happen and we've been thinking about the. creator economy and how it would impact. it. But specifically for people. listening, what essentially he said is. every time you post something on. Instagram, whether it's a real or or a. normal post, they now feed it to a large. language model, an AI, and the AI. effectively, and again, I'm summarizing. here, watches it, and it can now. understand the full context of what it's. watching. So, if it's watching a clip of. you and me right now, it'll understand. that that is Andy Galpin. He's holding a.

card, he's wearing a black t-shirt, he's. it'll look at the transcript, it'll know. what you said. And this is all pertinent. because it then can without in the past. needing to look at the caption and the. hashtags, it can then decide with way. more context than ever before who. exactly would want to see that. And the. net impact of that for for the user of. Instagram or these other social media. apps or Tik Tok or whatever it is, is. you're going to be more retained now. than ever before. And as you were. talking about that, I thought, I wonder.

if they think about timing of day. Like, I wonder if they think at 11 p.m. there's a certain thing that's going to. keep Andy scrolling versus something at. 9:00 a.m. when you're off to work. And. of course they do because that and you. know they were talking about on the. earnings call Mark was saying how it's. increased retention by I think 15 basis. points. And there's this quote where he. said there are already two large sets of. content to draw from. first from your. friends and people you follow and second.

from creators that you don't follow. But. now there's going to be a whole new and. nearly infinite universe of personalized. content which from that I infer what. they're saying is with their new large. language model called Muse is we're. actually going to make new content to. show Andy Galpin. >> that no one made no humans made. We're. going to make stuff that we know Andy. will like. And so I say all this to say. that in this sleep conversation, we've. been talking about as creators. We've. been saying basically it's going to get. really difficult if you're a creator.

because now if you have a million. followers, it doesn't matter. No, if. Jenny has zero followers, but she makes. something that is contextually more. interesting than the million follower. guy, Jenny's thing is going to see be. seen to everyone. But actually now. you're going to be competing with an AI. that's going to be churning out super. personalized Andy Galpin content. >> Like that just Andy would just love at. 11 p.m. >> I said to my team this week, I was like, just take care of yourself. Do you know. what I mean? Just be aware, you know, when you open your phone that the AI is. doing everything it can to retain you. >> Yeah. I mean, just don't be on your.

phone. We've been making this argument. for years, but gez, um, you got every. disadvantage possible coming in your. way. And and look, we're all human. I I. think I remember. last time I was here, you were talking. about how like you wake up and your. phone's right there, but your your. fiance like doesn't touch your phone for. the first hour of the day or something. and it's just like on the charger until. noon or something. You're just like, "What? I'm more like you." Right? I'm. like, "My phone is in my room. It's not. three rooms. Like, I'm just not doing. any of that stuff." Right? And we.

started this entire piece by saying the. environment you're in is just different. than it's ever been before. And it's not. getting any better. And at some point, you have to make that decision of. do you care about your own health? Do. you care about the thing the next day. that you didn't do well? And you care. more about that than you cared about. that next reel. >> What is it that's causing us to. understand everything you just said, but. to ignore it and to pick up our phone. anyway?

>> You are hard driven through the entire. biology of our species to search for. novelty. In fact, I I look at this from the lens. of sports. Why do you care about high. achievement? Why do I care about. performance? There has direct. translation. When someone breaks a. barrier, we all benefit from that. And I could. give you direct examples of this. But we. have every story. You want to go to. Joseph Campbell heroes journey, right?

You want to go back to Hercules, the. story of the marathon. Like you pull any. story from history out and what are you. actually looking at? You're looking at. somebody did something that no one has. ever done before. You care more about. records. than you do regular wins and losses. Why? because they're novel. Why are you more interested in watching. Messi break that record. than you are the other team winning in. the exact same shot?

It's because you saw something. You got. to be there when someone did something. for the first time in human history. >> I get more of a dopamine hit from the. novelty, from the new thing. >> It's more than the dopamine hit, though. It's a sense of purpose. Your life. mattered. because you got to be involved in. something no one else has ever seen. And. even as that bystander on TV 30,000. kilometers away, you got to be a part of. that. And that all comes down to we are. so wired. to reward novelty.

So then now that comes back to your life. and you have to be thinking how do you. walk away from that core drive? thinking. about a study I read about in psychology. class in school with pigeons getting. variable rewards. >> I'm going to butcher this, but bear with. me. They took a pigeon and they got a. little lever for it to press and every. time it would press the lever and. sometimes it would get a reward. And. they found from the study that if they. made the rewards variable, i.e. it. couldn't predict when it was coming, the.

pigeon was more likely to keep pressing. the lever, i.e. it was more addicted to. the behavior if it didn't know when the. dopamine hit was coming or the the treat. in that case. Scrolling on social media. is kind of like the slot machine of. variable rewards. I just don't know what. I'm going to get. But every fourth, you. know, scroll, I get something that. >> or every 40th. >> Yeah. Orth better, right? Because the. more unpredictable it is, >> the more likely you are to be like, "One. more, one more, one more, one more.". Right? Like, if it actually comes too. quickly, you care less. >> So, you're going to scroll through all. the boring stuff, boring stuff, boring.

stuff, boring stuff, boring stuff for. the one out of every 40 that gets you. That's what you're actually there for. I. mean, if I gave most people and I said. like you can have $10,000. or you can have $10,000 in equity in a. startup. I look at your face. Like I know what. you're doing, right? You want to like people are it depends. on where you're at, right? But it's just. like okay. And if I said right now the. most likely scenario is that $10,000 is. go zero. >> Yeah. >> Which is what happens, right? You're.

like kind of hedge. Can I go five and. five? like you're you're going to go you. don't you unless you need the 10 grand. which a lot of people do but you get the. point because you're like man walking. away from belief walking away from hope. walking away from what if is in insanely. hard to do. >> I deleted one of these social media apps. just completely from my phone and. honestly you always think that you're. going to have like FOMO. You're not. going to know what's going on or there's. going to be some huge loss to your life. if you don't have an app on your phone. And it's just remarkable when you delete. these some of these social media apps. how positive of a net impact it has on.

your life. >> I have a a friend of mine named Shaun. Ali, a famous UFC fighter. He was. sitting at his pool and he had his. daughter was like one or two years old. and he was like scrolling Twitter and. was like, "What am I doing?" Like my. daughter's over here in front of me. He's 2 years old and like I'm on. scrolling like not doing work or not. making a post. Not like I'm just. scrolling. dumped it was just like team you guys. handle it not on any social media more. >> so that screens.

>> that's screens my friend another one to. think about which we've sort of touched. on is called the presence of other. beings this is our classic sleep divorce. I assume you uh as I do share your. sleeping environment with your partner. >> yes. >> tough to make the argument of like get a. sick divorce right. >> yeah I'm not telling her. >> you can tell that. >> it's funny if it was up to my if we. would have a sleep divorce. >> You're joking. >> No, >> she's like, "Get away from me. Don't. touch me." She wants to like if we could.

have separate beds in separate rooms, she I don't snore earning, but she just. like. >> My fiance is the opposite. >> It's not super realistic, but it is. true. There are data behind it. People. generally don't sleep as well when. you're in the same bed as others. The. realistic solution, try to get sheets or. a sleeping situation in which when one. partner moves, it doesn't roll the other. person. >> Oh, like separate sheets. separate. sheets or simply the type of sheets. >> Um my wife loves to be really. constricted so she likes the sheets.

tucked in tight. She likes to bed and I. hate it. Like. >> I feel like I'm in Shaw Shank. I'm like. break me out like rip it all out of. there. So there's little things like. that that don't require you to buy. anything where you just change kind of. the the setup and the scenario to where. their movement doesn't impact you as. much. Um noise would be the same one. if. you are sleeping with somebody who makes. a lot of noise, tosses and turns a. bunch, um you could put a pillow in. between, so when they roll over and. move, they don't hit you, earplugs, things like that. So, that one's a. pretty straightforward one, but that.

said, it's pretty impactful. It can. really make a big difference. And if. you're really struggling, maybe do a partial sleep divorce. >> Okay. >> Next, sleeping in new environment. Uh. this would oftentimes be called first. night effect. So your first night, whether it's back home, whether it's in. a hotel or somewhere else, you don't. feel as comfortable and as safe. And. your circadian rhythms, the things that. set your timing, aren't there. This is. sound. This is light. This is feel. This. is temperature. This is smell. What you. can do if you travel a lot, our athletes.

travel every 3 to 5 days, right? This is. what they do. You can try to mimic your. sleep environment at home on the road. Some people will take their pillows. Other things that are on the similar. list are smells like lavender. Lavender is moderately associated with. helping people fall asleep. None of. those is going to like knock you out. >> Mhm. >> What you're looking to do is stack. winds. Next is temperature. You want to be. cool. Generally, you're looking at 64 to.

68 degrees. This is personally. dependent. Um, some people actually like. to be a little bit colder so that they. can have a heavier blanket because they. like that feeling. When this idea got. popular a bunch a few years ago, people. just started raking the ACs, right? You're just like, get the room as cold. as you possibly can. That can become a. problem because we're seeing this. somewhat consistency where when people's. air conditioners kick on, it actually. wakes them up. And as we talked about. earlier with noise, it's not necessarily. always about the volume, but it's the.

change, >> okay, >> in sound. And so you have something. kicking on, kicking off, kicking on, kicking off. The other thing we see is. because of air quality situations, uh, we've seen quite often when we have. environmental sensors and stuff that if. your air conditioner is not clean and. the fan is out in there, you can. actually kick a bunch of dander and. particulates and other things into the. air and then you start breathing those. things in it overnight and your nose. starts to get a little bit stuffed up. You can't breathe through your nose and. then boom, you have this hypopnic or. apnneic event. The last component that.

comes up, you know, pretty often at. absolute rest is fans. This can make. your mouth dry. So, if you're waking up. with that and you're like, "Ah, I got to. get a drink of water or something." Um, then maybe consider not having the fan. blow directly out your face. >> An interesting thing I was thinking. about there, which is there was the uh. viral experiment done in 2009 by Mind. Lab sleep study where they conducted um. the sleep experiment at the University. of Sussex. Researchers hooked men and. women up to an ECG machine to measure. their brain waves and played a variety.

of ambient sounds while they slept to. see which noises triggered an immediate. wake response. And the top wake. responses from men and women was. completely different. Men's top trigger. was a car alarm. Women's top trigger was. a baby crying. Men's top trigger was. wind howling outside. Uh women's second. top trigger, I should say, is a dripping. tap. Yeah. >> Men's third top is buzzing or flying of. a mosquito. Uh women's was um shouting.

outside. And both of their fourth top. trigger was snoring. But it was. interesting that the thing that woke. most men, their top trigger in that. study was an alarm outside, but women's. was a baby's crying. Yeah. Every mother. out there is gone. Yep. It's in in fact. one of the largest causes of sleep. disorders in women is having children. what happens after child birth and and. it's a whole interesting field to hear. of uh postpartum care is really poor in. women like we just sort of like start. paying attention to baby stop paying.

attention to mom as soon as baby comes. out well I'm saying that because it is. obvious and clear that the last. trimester can present a lot of sleep. challenges for women and then especially. as soon as a baby's there like you're. just going to have some known period of. sleep deprivation whether it's delivery. or having a newborn all that stuff and. that can actually cause patterns this. can cause insomnia. This can cause. irregular sleep schedules, circadian. disorders, natural things. Totally fine. In some percentage of women, those. patterns will persist. And so, you'll. see women who have sleep disorders, even.

with adult children that started because. of the child birth. We were advocating. at all times like, yeah, get through it. I got two kids, you know, I've been. there. But then just make sure you're. you're providing care and going back to. try to fix those things. And why that is. difficult is because the study you just. mentioned. >> it's worth saying there is an. evolutionary theory behind this that. says you know men and women are attuned. to different things. But there's also a. counterargument that says the difference. in who actually wakes up and who gets. out of bed is often heavily driven by.

social roles. Parenting expectations and. individual sleep depth rather than a. biological inability for men to hear the. baby. So how how do we close off on the. subject of sleep? Is there anything that. we haven't touched on that we should. have touched on as it pertains to how to. have incredible sleep? One thing that I. think will help everyone whether you're. at any of those stages free a little bit. of money or you got to go the full end. of the spectrum and use a hospital or a. service like ours. is everyone has the ability to run. self-experiments. We we have a a free.

guide that anyone can go use and it's. just a a quick tutorial about how to run. your own self-experiment for sleep. specifically. >> Oh, there you go. Yeah. Um so this is up. and available for free on our website. Anyone can check it out. There's a lot. of stuff in here we've covered. You can. get more into it. But the short answer. of it is we don't want to make people. think sleep has to be the center of. their life. I often times when sleep. comes up, people start thinking, I'd. love to sleep more, but I'm too busy.

Hey, I'm the same boat. Like, I can't. afford to have a 12-h hour sleep. routine. What we should be paying. attention to is sleep resilience. Steve, I want you to be as resilient to bad. sleep as possible. I don't want you optimizing your sleep. because optimization turns into that. giant routine before bed. I got to take. 12 different supplements and four. different cocktails and I got if I have. to do that along the way, great. The.

endgame though should be resilient. Meaning, you had a bad night of sleep, cool, and you still performed. We had this challenge. Flight got. delayed. Great. We still executed. I. want you to know how to get a good night. of sleep so you can feel as refreshed as. possible, execute the next day, and then. get right back onto it. >> The way you get there is, and that's the. way our company works, like we're just. going to run a series of experiments. And everyone can do that. Start by. changing one thing. Your trackers,

your data are going to tell you how. you're sleeping, but they're not telling. you why you're sleeping that way. So, that's your quest. Go figure out why. you're sleeping that way. Is it your. bedroom temperature? Is it your partner? Is it the fact that you're sensitive to. light? Is it the fact you're exercising. too late? Are you eating too late? Like, all these things are possible. One at a time. Just like Jon Jones, where marginal improvements in your. cognitive performance can have a massive. impact. Sometimes I podcast for 10 hours.

a day. Over the last couple of weeks, I've been in filming for a TV show and I. have like one or two days off to get all. of my work done, which means there's. lots of cognitive load. And so I turned. to ketones because I find myself more. articulate, able to think more clearly, able to work out better when I'm fueled. by ketones. And so the reason I became a. coowner of this company and the reason. why they now are a sponsor of this. podcast is because I remember one of my. team members called Cristiana, she tried. it once and came up to my desk and she. goes, "This is the best product ever. made." And I think in part that's. because she really cares about those.

cognitive benefits as I do, as Jon Jones. does, and as I think most of my. listeners probably will. So if you. haven't tried these yet, all you have to. do is go to ketone.com/stephven, and you'll also get 30% off your first. subscription order. You'll get exclusive. Ketone IQ merch and of course cognitive. benefits that might just change your. life. If you're thinking about starting. a business, one of the first decisions. you'll have to make is actually one of. the most important, which is where do. you build that business? Our product. team who manages everything we do from.

our conversation cards to our diaries. has always used our sponsor Shopify. There are a few reasons for this, but. one of the big ones is that when you're. running a business, you really need your. own store and your own customer data. And Shopify gives you exactly that. You. aren't renting space from someone else's. platform, hoping the rules don't. suddenly change. And you avoid the. classic founder challenges that. inevitably come, like sorting out. payments and logistics and storefronts, because it's already built into Shopify. Those early days are messy enough. without the infrastructure challenge to.

create extra problems for you. And. Shopify's distribution piece is. underrated, too, because your products. automatically get in front of people on. Google, Tik Tok, YouTube, ChatGBT, which. again isn't something you have to figure. out yourself. It's just already built. into their platform. If you are serious. about starting your own thing, start. your free trial at shopify.com/bartlet. I guess one could argue that the. antithesis of sleep is being awake. And. when we're awake, the thing we care. about is energy. Now, I had a really.

great conversation on this podcast with. um several people that talk about. mitochondria and energy and those kinds. of things. And some some of those. conversations have really really changed. me. If you hadn't haven't listened to. the more recent conversation we had on. um mitochondria on the channel, please. do go listen to it. >> Martin Peard. >> Martin Peard. It was a really honestly. it's one of my favorite conversations. I've had this year just because I've I. knew about the mitochondria like I I. conceptually knew what it was but I. hadn't thought about it as being so. central to everything in my life because.

energy is essential to everything in my. life like my relationships, my ability. to do this, my my joy, my everything. If. someone is trying to improve their. energy levels and that's what they come. to you with in terms of a symptom that. they self-describe, where do you aim? Okay, we talked about sleep, but where. else do you aim? >> Energy is. probably the number one thing on our. list of reasons people come to us. >> What do they say? >> I'm tired all day, can't figure it out, or I don't have the energy I used to.

have, or I can't sustain output like I. used to. Whether this is physical, uh, my recovery is longer than it used to. be, or I just can't hang working as many. hours as I used to do, I get fatigued at. the end of the day cognitively, I'm not. of the camp that this is entirely. mitochondria. But I certainly will agree. that energy would be the number one. In. fact, probably the most common question. I've ever got in my career is what. separates these world performers from. the rest of us? And people want me to. say things like they work harder. They.

they don't. They are categorically. though better at energy management. That is the one thing that seems to be. most consistent again with the world's. highest performers, athletes, entrepreneurs, leaders, executives, you. name it, however you're defining. success. When you get better at managing. energy, you're more effective. This is. everything from cellular energy to. understanding things like your own. interpersonal communication.

What type of relationships give you. energy? What type of relationships take. energy from you? What type of activities. give you energy? What types give you. back? When can you be more efficient? When are you running for the sake of. running and not actually running in a. direction? And I mean this figuratively, not literally. This is all energy management. And what. you'll see is these people are. world-class performers. get incredibly. good at going 80% of my energy suck. comes out of here for 20% ROI. I'm going. to switch that out. They're better at. choosing what matters and what doesn't. matter.

>> Okay? >> And this is everything from what. supplement is working to what type of. person that they work with. Where people. struggle is in the like what if I could. also be doing this? What if I could also. be doing this? What if I add this on. top? What if I add this on top? >> Okay. So, I thought you were talking. about um I guess if I try and put this. into some sort of analogy or metaphor, >> the high performers wake up with 100. energy chips, let's say, and they're. really really good at allocating them. against the most important thing. >> Yes. >> Whereas maybe Jenny and Dave listening. kind of let it seep out. They put 20 on.

Instagram, 20 over here on this. >> and they spin their wheels. >> They spin their wheels. >> They go, "Okay, great. I'm going to I. listen to this podcast and I got super. excited about zone 2. I'm going to go. hop into a bunch of zone too. And then I. listen to this other podcast and I get. super excited about journaling. Let me. go add journaling to my mix. >> And then what ends up happening is you. see their daily routine and you're like, "Okay, your daily routine is 20 hours.". And then at some point like you didn't. actually do anything that mattered. What. is the one thing that can get you to.

that goal in the most effective way. possible? And then everything else has. to actively be stripped away. So the. traditional thing we like to do is we. give one to two what we call active. movements per week which is this is. something Stephen you have to actively. remember to do. You don't actively. remember to brush your teeth. You don't. have to actively remember to shower blah. blah blah. You might at this point not. have to actively think about your. gratitude practice or your meditation. time. Like you probably have these.

things you've been doing for years, right? I don't actually call those. additive because you you do those. You're going to get those in. But I. might ask you to do one thing different. I don't know what that would be, but I I. would look at this and say, "Here's your. constraint. I'm not going to ask you to. do five things new. It's too difficult. Maybe this is a change in what time you. eat.". >> Okay? >> Your training style. Find what's. constraining you from your energy. >> What things could it be? >> It could be sleep. It could be. mismanagement of relationships. It could. be you're working too much. It could be.

you're under fueling. You're not eating. enough. It could be that you're. overusing stimulants. sleeping poor and. you're in that cycle, right? It could be. you're not seeing sunlight. So, what you. need to do is run a a quick analysis and. think what is the single biggest thing. in your way. Is it the fact that you're. in pain? Great. Maybe the only one thing I want. you to go after then is. let's go figure out why that knee hurts. >> Okay. So, for me, you've seen my blood. results. >> Yeah. >> So, what things might improve my energy. from the blood results that you saw?

>> What are you mid-30s? Early 30s. and 33. >> 33. All right. You're lean, you're. active. The first thing that jumps out. on your report. >> Yeah. Can we skip that? >> I think uh skip the page. You're going. to see quickly the difference between. medicine and performance. >> Okay. Um this is medical. So, we're. looking at cholesterol and cholesterol. related markers. You've got I don't know. a dozen of them or so there. Not one's. good. >> This is incredibly actionable.

>> Can I ask a question about this? what. what does it mean? And then I was going. to ask a secondary question which is I. was going to try and self diagnose why I. think this is the case but. >> I would love that second question. that'll actually tell us where to go. So. when you look at things like blood work. these are secondary measures of. physiology. They're trying to predict. what I what we'll call an outcome. Meaning in this case we are looking at. your heart health. >> Okay. >> There is an association and I choose. that word carefully between cholesterol. and cardiovascular disease. >> Okay. High cholesterol, low cholesterol,

good cholesterol. All the above. Very. traditionally, excessively high. cholesterol is going to be associated. with earlier heart disease, heart. attack, could even manifest itself into. strokes and things like that, right? So, if we were to just like zoom all the way. out and we say, "All right, your. cholesterol is extremely high. I'm. concerned about your heart health.". >> There's way more to the story, but at. the top of it, that's where we're at. So, the second question I was going to.

ask is at the time that I did these. blood test results, I was frequently in. a ketogenic diet. >> I know there's a lot to unpack here and. a lot of people are going to get mad. online. Cholesterol has lifestyle, dietary, and familial causes. Often. times, you might have high cholesterol. and all these various markers simply. because that's a familial genetic. inheritance and there's not a lot of. action behind it. When you see these. things independent of obesity, now we. have a different connotation. If I were. to look at all this stuff and go, "Oh, yeah, sure. You're 35% body fat. I know.

you drink alcohol." Then I'm like, "Okay, this is true, but let's tackle. those things first because those have so. many robust implications on your. health." That's the starting place. You. don't drink alcohol excessively. I don't. even know if you drink alcohol at all. and haven't in years, I assume, right? You don't smoke. You don't like I know. So, all those things are checked off the. list. This means this is actionable. >> I should give you some context here. My. uncle died of a heart attack and my dad. had a heart operation last week. >> Ooh.

>> So, >> do you remember what kind of heart. operation? >> He had a pacemaker put in. Um, >> but he's been on statins, I think, for. >> to lower his cholesterol. >> A long time. I think he's been on. statins for about 15 years if I was to. guess. About 15 20 years. >> Yeah. So, when I look at this. independent of your obesity with your. familial history, do you remember what. advice you got when you got these. results of what to do? Do. >> you know I did two two um tests. I did. this one with Function Health, who I. believe are a sponsor, so I should say. that. Um, and I did the second one with.

Nico Health, >> where I'm a big investor in the company. They both said to me like, "Steve, stop. eating steak all the time. Um, bacon, stop eating bacon all the time." The way. that I heard it was, damn, this. ketogenic diet you've been on, Steve, you need to just take it easy. >> And have you done blood work since then? >> No. >> All right. First thing that would pop up. and this is the order I would do this. in. When you get something like blood. work, the value is not in the data. The value. is in the interpretation. What they're. talking about why you heard that as.

steak, butter, bacon is because those. are food items high in saturated fat. Saturated fat is not evil. There are no. evil foods. It's only evil context. Right? So in your particular case, if we. saw those and we don't have this, but if. we had your baseline. before that test and then we had this. and we went, okay, when you change your. diet and increased your saturated fat. intake and then we saw these numbers. increase, most ethical people in this space would.

look at that and say that's not a. positive thing. That does not mean. ketogenic diets are bad or unsafe. Not. at all. It only means if we had those. theoretical data for you, it's probably. not healthy. You stack that on top of. the fact that you have your uncle and. your dad in there. Then I would triple. down and go talk to your doctor. I'm not. your medical doctor, but I'd be really. concerned about that. Then what I would. do would be go to the next step. Let's. run the experiment and see. This is an. indirect marker. And remember, what is.

it trying to predict? Your heart health. Have you had your heart scanned? >> Yes, I have. And. >> they said that I had like I had a thick. wall. >> Okay. Exercise induced cardiac. remodeling. if especially if it's left ventricular. >> It's a good thing. Right. So your heart. has four chambers. Two on top, two on. bottom. The two on the top are called. atria. >> Uhhuh. >> Ventricles on the bottom. Oh, you got a. great image there as well. Yeah. So you. can look at this as a maze. Okay. So. we'll use double modeling here. Can you.

see how the left ventricle. is much larger than the right ventricle? >> Mhm. >> There's a reason. The right ventricle. only has to kick blood to your lungs. >> Yeah. >> Which are, you know, physically. >> quite close. >> a few inches away. The left ventricle. has to kick it up out through your. entire body down to the tip of your toes. all the way back up against gravity and. then back up into your heart. Mhm. >> And so what you're seeing here is.

strength training. This is resistance. exercise. Your left ventricle is lifting. weights. It has to be bigger. It has to. be stronger so that it can contract. really hard and shoot all that blood up. and down and up and out. If you said you. had a thicker wall either naturally or. exercise induced, just like when you. lift with your biceps more, it's larger. The same thing is happening your left. ventricle. Incredibly common and healthy. adaptation. Okay. >> What we would be concerned about is if. there was any type of blockage.

or any type of plaque buildup. >> One of the things that I remember them. saying is they, again, I'm going to. butcher this, but they told me there's. kind of like two types of plaque build. up in my veins or my arteries, whatever. And they said, "The bad type you haven't. got.". >> And they said, "But the other type you. have got." And they I think they were. referring to like the bad type as being. like more sticky. >> Yeah. and it like doesn't go, >> it'll dislodge. >> Oh, okay. And that can cause a risk. >> Yeah. >> They said I didn't have the bad type,

but I had this other type that can is. like temporary, but could turn into the. bad type or something. >> Yeah. One thing you want to be really. careful of, and this happened to a dear. friend of mine, Joel Jameson, young, super fit, all the things. No stress, doesn't smoke, doesn't drink, much like. you, all this stuff. Family history. >> Mhm. >> Didn't think about it. Blood work came. back totally fine. still asked to get a. CT angiogram scan of his heart. His. cardiologist said, "No, you don't need. it. You're young. You're all the thing.". Got it anyways. And he had a I think he.

had a 50% blockage of his what's called. a widowmaker. You're flipping the dice whether you're. going to die here, right? So, this is a. classic case to me where he's doing all. the right things, but imaging saved his. life. Let's not live in fear. Let's go. look. He went had a looked. I'll just. trust your physicians. Great. then I'm. less worried about this because this. could be a direct response to your. ketogenic diet, which it almost. certainly was. And if it's presenting no. risk to the place we actually care. about, then I'm less concerned about. your cholesterol. >> But is if it carries on like this, could.

it create a risk? >> Absolutely could. >> Okay. Cuz they all did tell me to fix. this. >> Yeah. Just keep getting it scanned every. few years and if you see any aggress any. any buildup at all, then I would manage. it. >> Okay. >> Now, in what you're seeing over here is. that client of ours. And so as an. example, I'll give you a specific. number. His total cholesterol was 347. We got him down to 223. >> What did you do? >> Fiber. >> Why fiber? >> Stress reduction. Fiber, depending on. the type of cholesterol, will actually. bind to the cholesterol and clear it.

from the system. >> You will physically reduce it. >> That's why they one of the supplements I. was told to take is a fiber supplement. >> It's not always going to solve. something. And I want to be really. clear. If you have numbers like you had, you. need to work with a doctor. and you need. to get screened. Don't just be like, I. took Fiber. I'm fine. This guy said on a. podcast. That's not what I'm saying. But. it is, it can be effective. The other. thing we did was massive stress. reduction. Guy was a a very hard. charging CEO for a large company. >> How is stress reduction going to impact. my cholesterol? >> Things like cholesterol can be what are.

called acute phase reactants, some parts. of them, not all of them. Meaning it. responds to acute stress and stimuli. When you look at things like blood work, they aren't static. They are responding. to the entire system. And so if you were. to be stressed, and we not to blame. anything on cortisol, but cortisol is. elevated. You are in a uh heightened. alert state. This causes short-term. inflammation. In fact, if you look at I. think your inflammation was a little bit. um nuts over there. Oh, this guy as. well. Probably like your most classic. inflammation marker is called CRP. His.

was at two, which is really high. We got. him from two to 2. So 10x reduction that. then allowed cholesterol to normalize. Um the the easiest most technical way to. get to say it is it's an acute phase. reactant. Meaning it will change in. response acutely to inflammation. Some. markers will go up and some will go down. in response to that like like D like. vitamin D goes down. >> if what if you. >> in a a stressed environment. Some go up, some go down. Blood glucose goes up.

>> So you got stressed down, you got his. fiber up. >> And that took him from 347 to 223, which. is still high. Went from 223 to 163. Now. that took a statin. >> Oh. Obviously you did give him a statin. >> We didn't but his medical team did. >> Okay. >> And so this I why I want to draw this. point out is we were able to go a long. ways with lifestyle. But he wanted to go more. He wanted to. be green green green. So that's when medicine came in. And I. to me this represents a a great marriage.

of the two. Some people are very anti-. medicine. Some people are that's not my. decision. That's up to you and your. medical provider. But I think it's it's. it's unfair to tell people things like. all of it can be done with lifestyle and. there's no need for medicines ever or. the opposite of just like oh just take. the drug don't worry about it. He needed. all of it. He needed stress reduction. He needed some changes in his diet and. that made a huge change in his. biological health. So if you were to be. like look this is so complicated this.

guy like how can I make actional advice. of all this stuff this guy's saying I. don't have a private doctor and cool. just run the experiment. Try more fiber. try to regulate your stress. If you want. to go the opposite route and jump right. into the the medical side, that's fine, too. Um, but it doesn't need to be super. scary or super daunting because these. are not like especially if your heart. has been scanned. I'm not concerned. about an acute emergency. >> The two things on here that I thought. were were shocking to me are my my. vitamin D levels and my omega levels,

which I was told were deficient. >> Yep. >> I thought I was smashing it with those. two cuz I think I was living in LA at. the time and. >> Yeah. So your vitamin D was borderline. low. Fairly traditionally people of. African heritage are going to be lower. in that marker. >> Okay. >> You're at 37. Kind of lower end of that number is 40. That might actually be fine. >> I think I heard you say something about. vitamin D. Again, I don't want to. butcher your words if this wasn't what. you said, but you kind of make the. assumption that most people are. deficient.

>> Yeah, it is true. >> Why does it matter? >> So vitamin D is a nice microcosm of. overall health. So what I mean by that. is you will tend to see people low in. vitamin D who are also tending to make. poor health choices. So it's a little. bit like grip strength and all that. where it's kind of a one snap shot at. saying are you generally healthy or not? Why is it needed specifically? It is. involved in every reaction from your. brain to your gut to your hormones, your. immune system, metabolism and everything.

in between. It's critical to maintaining. bone health. that's critical to being. able to grow skeletal muscle. It's also. clinically low in a high percentage of. the population and even subcl clinically. low in a vast majority of the. population. >> So, should we be supplementing if we are. low? >> The real world will always win. Whole. foods, sunlight, positive social. environments. That's always the place to. start. So, do you want to supplement. with it? That's up to you. I would much. rather you get sunlight if possible. Now, enter everyone in the chat going, "I live in the UK. There's no sun. sort.

of up here. Fine. If you want to choose. a supplement um because you live in. those situations, then that's absolutely. fine. >> Or I work in an office for 12 hours a. day. It's it's interesting because there. is a bit of a paradox here in we're all. in search of very natural solutions in a. very unnatural way of living. I had this. conversation with my fiance a couple of. couple of weeks back about a few things. where in one area of our life we're. trying to be really really natural. >> Y. >> um. >> but I'm like babe like look at the rest.

of our lives. so unnatural. We get on. planes and have these smartphones and. and so almost forcing this one part to. be natural is. >> arguably going to cause a bit of a. problem. >> I mean, it happens to me, right? Like. I'll. put in the entire hours of the day and. not even realize I didn't step outside. >> Yeah, >> it absolutely happens. >> So, what I think you have to do is. number one, give yourself grace, right? Like you're not going to be perfect. I'm. especially thinking about like single. parents. It's just like you're not going. to go out and spend 30 minutes in the. sun. >> Night shift workers. >> Totally. Boy, that's a really hard.

thing. Um, we've dealt with a lot of. nurses and surgeons and things like that. where you're on call, you're out. And. that's when we can lean towards modern. medicine, modern supplementation. It. that's why those things are not trash. They're not garbage. They're not fake. Our strategy typically is that's can we. find one actionable thing, one thing. that you're doing as a focus that is. something you got to go out of your way. and do. And that might be you have to go. outside today. You have that might be. your one thing to pay attention to. When. you start asking for more than one to. two active things per week, you start.

end up failing. >> Okay, fine. >> So, with your omegas, so your omega. score at five is low. >> Mhm. >> You want that to be eight. But you. probably didn't notice your mercury was. right on the line of high as well. Those. things will typically track. The more. omega-3s you consume, the more mercury. goes up. >> Oh, really? >> Because most omega-3 sources. are going to be filled with mercury. But. I was low omega and high mercury. >> So what that tells us is if you were to. jack your omega-3s up, your mercury is.

going to get into the line that we don't. want it to be in. So solution, you need to alter the source of your. omega-3s. Get it from a higher quality. place. So I'm not sure where you were. getting them from there. >> All over the place. >> Yeah. But you would want to to either. choose your supplement more carefully or. choose better quality foods. What. actually moves the needle on this. subject of energy, which is what we're. talking about here. Is there anything. that is more consequential as it relates. to these people that are trying to get.

more energy in their life? They feel. lethargic. We talked about sleep as. being a real foundation here. >> If you're looking for more energy, I. would divide everything into two. buckets. Hidden stressors and visible. stressors. Visible stressors are things. like you're not exercising. We know from. excellent databases, physical exercise. enhances energy. Why? And how? >> Mitochondrial health is one of the many. aspects of it. >> You'll have more mitochondria if you. exercise more. >> Generally, not only will you have more,

they'll be larger and they'll be. healthier. >> And mitochondria basically process your. energy. So, you get more efficient. energy production. >> They're one of the ways you can make it. You can make energy a lot of different. ways. It is the end path of all aerobic. exercise. So, in other words, anytime. you're using oxygen as a byproduct to. make fuel, mitochondria have to be. there. So, it is central and core to. that. Um, but it is more than. mitochondria. You'll have more total. blood. >> if you exercise. >> Yes. >> It's one of the primary adaptations to. endurance is you'll physically have more. blood in your body.

>> and that will mean. >> you carry more oxygen. >> Oh, okay. >> You have more red blood cells. >> So, you're able to carry more oxygen to. fuel those mitochondria. >> Is that a certain type of exercise that. gives you more? >> Generally, anything that demands blood. flow will increase blood supply. >> Cardiovascular exercise. >> can be can be anything. >> Okay. Stress equals adaptation. Meaning, if you put a demand on your heart to. pump more blood, it'll get better at. pumping more blood. If you put a demand. on bone to resist tension, it'll get. better at resisting tension. You run the.

whole cascade of connective tissue to. cellular health. It is simply what's. called the said principle. S A I D, specific adaptation to imposed demand. And also is it fair to say then if we. take the word exercise out of the. traditional definition which is like in. a gym doing a thing and we broaden it to. work or just you know cognitive. performance. Remember exercise is a. novel madeup term. This is a new thing.

to us. Historically humans have carried, have sprinted, have jumped, have. climbed, have grappled, have done all. those things. putting that into a. structured non-aily activity is a last. 75 year phenomenon, right? It wasn't. actually until we started to realize. that stress reduction to the end of the. limit is a bad thing and then we had to. recreate stress into our lives. One form. of that was we call that exercise. So. yes, if you think about exercise as. either running, cycling, swimming or.

lifting weights, you have left a bunch. on the table. I don't care how you're. challenging yourself. Even if that. structured exercise in your example is. more vocationally based, >> it's the stress being provided to the. system. And so when you start to look at. things like what's the best exercise. protocol for AB and C, one of the things. you start to realize is all of them can. have equal responses given a few. constraints and if they hit that. constraint, they work. So if you have a. movement practice, you skateboard, you.

play pickle, you walk, you garden, fine. All those can have equal clinical. outcomes. mortality, joint pain, body composition. because they're getting to the same. spot. >> Does this make sense then? So, if I'm. say I'm a podcaster and I want to have. more energy to podcast, >> Yeah. >> I should podcast more. >> Yeah. You'll be more resilient, right? >> Okay. So, you could apply that to sort. of any vocation or activity. If I want. to have more energy to. uh lift my kids up and run with them in. the garden, then I should lift things.

and run with them. >> Stress inoculation. And then in the. future my body will adapt and it will. give me more energy for that particular. activity. >> Yep. >> So sometimes when people say they don't. have energy for a thing, it's because. they haven't challenged themselves in. that particular activity enough to. expand and adapt. >> It's it's really difficult, right? So if. if walking up the stairs is a V2 max. test for you, how likely are you to walk. upstairs? Oh, >> okay. So it's like a downward spiral. It's. >> too difficult, right? So then what. happens? >> You don't do it.

>> and you get. >> Yeah. less good at it. >> Able to do it, right? Yeah. >> So when we start thinking about energy. and I started talking about like hidden. visible stressors, right? I'm looking. for constraints. Do you have an. undiagnosed pathogen in your body? We. have a major league baseball player. Felt horrific. I'm talking like can't. make it through a baseball game. Legs. are shot. No energy whatsoever. In his. particular case, we were able to confirm. in his blood, in his physical bedroom,

and with a bunch of other tests for. actually you test his eyes and you test. a bunch of other stuff. He had a very. gnarly exposure to mold. >> Oh yeah. >> All we had to do in large part was get. that cleared and his energy came back. That's an example of a hidden stressor. But one of the things we're always. looking for is are you an energy. toxicity? Meaning, are you eating too. many calories, which is not the same as. being obese, or are you in low energy. availability? You're sleeping fine, but. you're of low energy.

Are you eating enough calories? Oh, you're not. Like, we have to go no. further on this train. You are. underfueled for what you're asking. So, there's things that are hidden stressors. like that. There are visible stressors, which we just talked about. Like, you're. not actually doing the thing. Another. easy way to explain this is cognitively. If you want to write a book and you. don't currently write and you sit down. to write, it's going to be exhausting. >> Mhm. >> And then you talk to a writer and. there's like, oh yeah, like I I need 45. minutes so I can crank out a thousand. words. >> Mhm. >> It's like not exhausting at all. Right.

Stress inoculation. This is exactly what. you said before. You can build up. endurance in those things by them. >> This is one of the things I've learned. from this podcast and meeting all these. exceptional people is um this like use. it or lose it principle. >> Oh yeah. you know, because I'm getting. older and you start to feel the odd. pain, >> you know, and so you start to like not. use that part, you know, your back for. example. >> Yeah. >> Or bending down and so you find ways to. not bend down properly so you can avoid. the pain. >> And what's happening there is because. something is difficult, you do it less,

which then means it becomes more. difficult. So you do it less and there's. this downward feedback loop to decline. >> Atrophy leads to atrophy. >> Yeah. And like, you know, I think the. critical idea that got in my head a. couple of years ago from someone I was. interviewing on the podcast was that. aging isn't always the excuse. And I. think we assume it's just aging so we. accept it and we don't fight back. >> When I sat here with one of the. exceptional PhDs that I interviewed, she. showed me I think it was a DEXA scan of. a 70-year-old.

>> It was like a pentathlete and then a. DEXA scan of someone that was like 30. years old. And this 70-year-old was just. phenomenal. Yeah. Their their sort of. bone, their muscle, etc. And she. basically proved to me. I'll put up the. scan on the screen. It really is a. mind-blowing scan. I've actually sent it. to my best friends because it really did. I couldn't I couldn't get this idea out. of my head that actually don't accept. everything as an aging problem because. the minute you do, you go on this. downward cycle. And it blew my mind. And. that was such an important idea to get. in my head at my age at 30 years old. So. when I feel like a pain in my back, my.

my solution isn't, oh, okay, Stephen, you're getting older. stop bending down. and protect the pain. It is go to the. gym and start squatting and bending etc. There are some things that will go down. with age. Sleep is actually one of them. We typically just see you will sleep a. little bit less as you age. Fine. There. are some aspects of that but I think you. can resist and fight as much of that as. possible. This is actually you're seeing. a turning of a tide right now that just. starting to emerge with longevity. longevity is currently being positioned.

as this anti-aging. phenomenon and people are already bored. Like, is your goal to just not age or is. your goal to dunk a basketball at 70? Do. you want to have the 4x4 truck that has. the best off-road package ever and it. stays in your garage? Probably not, right? like you want to be able to be. like no you you want to live. because you want to experience life and. so then you want to be able to take.

advantage of those capacities and. functionality. >> Yeah. Someone said to me you want to. extend your health span not necessarily. your lifespan. >> It's not health span though. >> Oh really? >> No that's what I'm that's what I'm. pushing back on. Hell span cool. I mean. lifespan fine great. We're all past. that. Health span though is still like I. don't want to be in pain. I don't want. to be I'm saying performance span. I'm. saying I want you to be focused on. having the most skill. I want you to. just be crushing cognitively. I want you. to be able to do anything you want. physically for as long as we possibly.

can. And not just being like, well, that's going to go away. Let's just stay. alive and be out of pain. I want you to. be thinking about, no, like, I'm going. to be doing awesome stuff in whatever. venue you like to do it in for as long. as you possibly can. >> I think people want both. >> Yeah, of course. >> Yeah. But let's not for let's just not. leave that end of the table off and. assume the performance has to go away. >> So on this point of energy then I think. we've we've covered a lot of it and. given me some sort of like really. actionable principles there for how to.

have more energy. I do notice I have to. say cuz I travel quite a lot and so on. on occasion my gym routine will be. impacted. >> and there's quite a clear correlation. for me between the amount of times I've. gone to the gym in previous weeks. >> Yeah. and how I feel in terms of energy. today. I was thinking about this this. morning. We're in New York here and over. the last couple of weeks, I've probably. been going to the gym like three or four. like three times a week if I'm being. honest. Whereas usually I'd go almost. every day and I have felt a difference. in my energy. And I wasn't sure if that.

was just like psychological or if that. was supported by science. >> Both. If you go and do a a moderate to. to light lower intensity exercise. session, those are generally going to. provide energy. Mhm. >> If you're like, "No, I did a like to the. death training. I I pegged it. I went. all the way." Whatever that is, whether. you're lifting weights, intensity, whether you're getting your heart rate. all the way up, then you might walk out. of those and be like, "Woo, I'm. exhausted." But on aggregate, those will. provide more daily energy. If you're. traveling, sick, super busy, do the.

former. Like, just get in some motion. You'll feel better. You'll get a sweat. in. You there. If you're healthy and. looking for long-term adaptation, then. that's when you can start to push the. pace on the training. >> I want to speak to the business owners. listening and watching right now. I know. what it's like to be personally. responsible for every decision. I. founded my first company at 21 years. old, and honestly, the pressure can be. immense. It's the kind of mental load. that takes its toll below the surface. I. recently did some tests through our. sponsor, Function, which got me thinking. about that invisible impact. I found.

that I had low levels of omega-3s. I had. deficient levels of vitamin D, probably. because I sit inside this dark room all. day. And that has totally changed how I. construct my day going forward. I get up. in the morning and the first thing I now. do is I go for a walk outside in the. sunshine. In part to help my vitamin D. levels increase, but also because it. helps to reset my circadian rhythm. With. Function, you can check your brain. health, your aging, your stress, and so. much more. They provide over 160 lab. tests for what is equal to a dollar a.

day and member pricing on advanced. imaging. Head to functionhealth.com/doac. to join and use code doc25. for a $25 credit. There should be a. button just down below here. And if it. says subscribed, you're already. subscribed. If it says subscriber, that. means you're not yet. And if you're not. subscribed, please could you do us a. favor and hit that button? It helps the. show more than you know. And according. to the algorithm, you're someone that. watches our show, but you haven't yet. hit that button. Thank you so much.

>> Speaking of training, you know what this. is, don't you? >> Sure. >> This is a a grip strength machine. >> Yeah. >> A lot of people told me that um grip. strength is the single biggest predictor. of I think they said like longevity and. stuff like that. >> I wouldn't call it the number one. predictor of mortality. It is a really. nice scientific test. late 1980s, Stephen Blair and his team started. looking at giant databases and started. to realize that cardiovascular fitness, V2 max, V2 peak, things like this were.

predicting how long people were going to. live. And in fact, they started to realize it. was out predicting what we call. traditional clinical markers, blood. pressure, your cholesterol levels, things like that. And this launched an. entire 45 year field that we're in now, which is like, wait a minute, these. performance-based markers are actually. predicting health more than these. indirect markers. The unfortunate problem is that got like. too taken too far. And so when you hear.

things like people and my colleagues who. have been on your show and said things. like, "Oh, grip strength is an important. predictor of mortality." It's good. It's. great. It's an important message. But we. have to be careful in being lost in what. that means. Getting a grip strength. device like that, which is probably. under $40 is amazing. And what you will. see consistently is those people that. are really, really, really weak, are in worse health on average. Where we. come become false is saying, okay, therefore, you need to alter your. lifestyle to maximize grip strength.

>> I did do my grip strength results. actually. >> Do you remember how they were? >> It was they was it was good. It was uh. it was high. You know what that tells me. about your health? Well, >> nothing. >> Okay. >> Why wouldn't it be high? You're young. You're fit. I have all those other. markers. It's not going to tell us. anything. You know, these things are. really powerful. Somebody who doesn't. have blood work or doesn't have a body. composition test or doesn't have. anything else. It can give us a crude. strength or a crude metric. Let's say. this person's probably at a health risk. So, I've always been quite confused by.

this because is grip strength a proxy. for my overall strength of my entire. body and therefore it's just indicating. that my overall strength is low or is it. actually like my arm? >> It's both. >> Oh, okay. >> It's both. Here's why. You know what. you're really testing right there? >> What's that? >> Ner nervous system. >> Oh, really? >> You're testing your brain. >> So, you're not testing your strength as. much. >> You are, >> but it's both. >> There's an overlap. Mhm. >> That's why your grip strength does it. indicate general poor health? Yes. >> That's the value. Does it tell you.

anything directly about your It can. And. so this is when you see two camps here. So camp one is like great, I'm going to. open up a gym down the street and it's. going to test your grip strength and. then we're going to focus all of your. training on grip strength training. That. is we've exaggerated the point. The. other camp is it doesn't matter. It's. all indirect. That's not true either. is. an actionable, useful thing where you. don't need to worry about us optimizing. maxing it. Like I if you're in the 80th. percentile, going to the 90th percentile. probably doesn't make you live a day. longer. Over the last probably 3 years,

I would imagine there's over 20 to 25. studies that have been published on a. very specific type of grip strength, and. that's grip strength asymmetry. Do you know why that matters? >> I don't, but I know that I'm I'm. stronger on my left side than my right. >> It's not uncommon. Um, typically your. force dependent limb is not your neural. control limb. So you write right-handed. because you have to have fine motor. control. >> Okay. >> Gross strength can be in the opposite. side. >> Go like this. You know, keep it in here. Don't touch your arm to the table at.

all. Keep it 90° like that. Yep. And. then you're just going to squeeze, you. know, one good effort as hard as you. can. >> All right. Don't blow out now. >> All right. Let's see. >> Oh gosh, my head nearly exploded. 130. So you're you're above average. So. >> can I try this side as well? >> Yeah. >> This is my So this is my weaker. >> All right. Here we go. >> My weaker hand. >> All right. You got to beat it though. Now. >> gosh, it's a bit slippery.

>> I think you did. >> Did I beat it? >> Oh my god. Wow. 160. >> No, you're joking. >> 160. Not the. lot crunching there. >> 130. >> Okay. Okay. On that side. >> and your left side. >> Let's see. >> 110. >> Crossing, man. That's really good. >> But it what it taught me is that it's. not it doesn't correlate to overall. strength because Jeff is definitely. stronger than me. >> For sure. For sure. Yeah. I mean, it's a. very specific type of strength, right?

So, the asymmetry actually matters. because most of the work in that area is. in groups with neurological disease. So, you're trying to look at early. predictions of Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, and things like that. which ties into my. earlier point is it is not simply an. overall proxy of your health. It can. tell us direct things like nerve. denervation. and overall neurological health. So it. to me is a it's a great tool but what we. don't want to do then is optimize.

for that. >> What is a better marker of my overall. health? >> There's not a single marker that will. tell you everything. >> What about muscle power? >> Muscle power is great as well. >> What is that? >> Power is defined as force multiplied by. velocity. So if I. >> Yeah. >> If I throw this. >> Yeah. >> Do you want to throw it? >> Go ahead. >> Okay. Put your hand on there. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Great. >> Is that Is that muscle power? >> That wasn't much power because you did. it slow. >> Okay. >> So, think about it this way. This is uh. 12 kilos, right? 12 kilos. I don't know.

Pounds. Kilos. That is mass. Kilos. Pounds is a unit of mass. Force. That's. what you think when you think of. strength. That's force. Force is defined as F= ma. It's mass. times acceleration is force. Okay? So. it's the mass multiplied by how you can. how well you can accelerate it. Power. is your force multiplied by your. velocity. So here's the difference. If I. were to take this 12 pounds of mass or. 12 kilos and hand it to you slowly. >> Mhm.

>> Okay. That is an expression of 12 pounds. of force is how we'll think about it. Now if you hand it back to me the exact. same speed that is the same amount of. newtons of force. How I create power is. now I do that same thing with speed. Ready? >> So there are two ways you can get more. powerful. More force, more velocity. >> You would use an implement like that. because you're trying to say give me a. little bit of mass but you can obviously. lift more than 12 kilos. But now I'm. going to emphasize the velocity into the. spectrum. Where people make the mistake.

in training for power is if you go slow, the mass is too light to do anything. So. you don't get stronger and you don't get. faster. Why this matters in the current. conversation is you see power and what. some people will call call things like. powerpenia. So the the term that we've been using. for a long time is sarcopenia and this. is the the accelerated loss of muscle. and probably muscle strength with aging. You're going to drop some but sarcopenia.

is are you dropping faster than you. should? And now there's a turn of. scientific attention to powerpenia, which is are you losing the power faster. than you should be losing power. That. matters because it is everything from. prevention of fall, >> catching yourself when you slip to be. able to move and accelerate quickly. And. so you see that thing that stuff highly. associated with breaking of bones uh. fractures, dislocations. which are incredibly impactful to health.

especially post age 60 or 65. >> I think a lot of people listening and me. too. So I guess one of the questions we. have as it relates to the gym and. working out is we often think that in. order to get better results in the gym. and you can define that however you want. to. fat loss, muscle gain, whatever, strength, >> we need to go more often. And I was curious, someone who spends so. long with athletes, is that a bit of a myth? Because even my. even me, I'm thinking, well, if I want.

better results in the gym, I probably. just need to I'm currently going three. or four days a week. I need to go back. to going six or seven days a week to get. better results. >> You could go either way. It is generally. true that if you train more, you give. yourself more opportunity to create. stress, which is more opportunity to. create adaptation. But that said, depending on the marker, the answer here could range from yes to. no. Let's use muscle growth as an. example. As long as you hit the same. volume throughout the week, the amount.

of times you go to the gym doesn't. matter that much in theory. >> Volume. How much load did you lift? How. many times. >> does time period matter? I.e. if I. lifted four weights in 1 hour versus. lifting four weights in 20 minutes. >> No, because now all you've changed is. really the rest in between. >> Yeah. Does that matter? It does in the. sense that if you take a short rest. interval and that leads to excessive. fatigue accumulation and then that.

compromises how heavy you can lift or. how many reps you can do or how many. sets you can do. That will have. compromised your volume. >> Wait, so cuz everyone talks about taking. shorter rests in the gym to build more. muscles. >> Not consistent with the evidence. >> Really? >> Yep. But this is this is the game you're. playing at all times, right? Who has the time to wait two and a half. minutes between every set? You're going. to be in the gym for an hour and a half. >> A lot of people are on their phones. >> Totally. And then because of that, they're like, I got to get out of here. So they do half the amount of stuff,

they leave cuz they're out of time. So. the battle is in an isolated world, if you were to probably spend 60 to 90. seconds or maybe up to two minutes. resting in between each set, generally. you recover enough to have a higher. quality set the next one. So, is that. the most important thing to be. optimizing for is the high making sure. the next rep you do is high quality? >> In my world, quality is always number. one. >> So, you're saying take a bigger break as. long as you can recover and are more.

strong for the next rep. >> As long as it doesn't put you in a. position where you're in the gym so long. that you won't do all the stuff you. needed to do. >> But in a world where you had unlimited. time. >> really. >> generally. >> depends on what adaptation we're working. for. If we're working on endurance, then. we don't necessarily have to do that. >> Okay? >> But if we're working on speed or skill. or flexibility or balance or muscle. growth or fat loss, now we have options. So depending on the outcome you're. looking for, you have tools. I I think. the biggest point we want to make here.

is. where the field struggles right now is. making a little bit of information get. in the way of motivation. If you're going to the gym three days a. week, I'm clapping. done. Like, we're winning. I don't want. you to hear messages and go, "Oh, I'm. doing it all wrong. I'm not going to get. any results. I'm tanking my metabolism. I'm breaking my hormones." That's the. that drives us nuts. You're. motivated. It's hard enough to get to.

the gym and when you get there to try. really hard. We've gotten over the hill. Now, if you're past that point, we could. start tinkering with some things. But I. hate it when people leave conversations. like this and go, "Oh, did you know that. if you don't rest more than 60 seconds. that you're not getting anything?". That's not true. So, we can get like. upgrades, but in general, I think most. people quality should be the biggest. thing you pay attention to because this. is going to reduce your likelihood of. injury. And there's even evidence that.

whether you're trying to get stronger or. grow muscle, the quality of the repetition as defined. by your technique, as defined by your. range of motion, as defined by your. intent, as defined by what we call your. mind muscle connection. So like are if. you're trying to contract your shoulder, are you really contracting your should. like all these things start to matter. And so what you'll see happen is you can. get more results. with less work and shorter time because.

each individual repetition is of a. higher quality and a more focused. intent. >> I mean this might be a good time to just. quickly take a I mean everyone's talking. about creatine at the bloody moment. Do. you have your athletes taking it? >> Yeah, of course. >> you do. >> Yeah, everybody. >> Do you take it? >> Yeah. >> What do you take? What's in your. supplement stack? my personal supplement. stack. Same with all of our clients and. athletes. There's two things. Correct. physiology, performance enhancement. Totally separate categories. Correct.

physiological. deficiencies are, in your case, your. vitamin D. What is low, what is high, what is off track based on blood work, right? We try to solve this through. food. But what this often time looks. like is a high quality multivitamin, oftentimes fish oil. Now you have. performance accelerators on the other. side of that equation. This is when. creatine can come in. If I'm traveling, I'm going to take things like fiber, right? Because it's harder to get. vegetables when you travel. You probably.

know this, but airplanes, airports, restaurants, like vegetables are nowhere. to be found. And so I know those are. going to be a struggle. I'm going to. take fiber there. I'm generally not. taking it as much when I'm home because. I can control my diet. Performance. enhancers are things like creatine, are. things like beta alanine, sodium. bicarbonate. So depending on what. fitness training goal I have at the. moment, I'm going to alter those based. on if I'm looking for muscle growth or. endurance or. >> What are you taking right now? >> Zero. >> Zero vitamin D like this week. >> No. No. Summertime.

>> Okay. >> I live in I live in the forest. >> Omega-3. >> Nope. >> Why? >> I got full control of my diet and we got. a lot of fish right now. So we are good. there. I also have I'm fortunate I get. to harvest my own meat and one of the. things you'll see pretty consistently is. even in red meat sources they're higher. in a lot of nutrients wild caught versus. unw wild. So we're in a pretty good plus. I have my blood work I know where my. omega-3 numbers are. So I'm going to get.

there if I don't have to take those. things I don't. >> A lot of people I imagine come to you. for with weight loss goals whether. they're trying to cut weight for a a. fight or if it's just mom and pop. looking to lose a few pounds. What are. the big misconceptions about weight. loss? >> Yeah, it's the magic of it, right? It's. the there's one specific element you. can't eat or one way you have to train. or can't train. That is the the biggest. misconception around fat loss. The. specificity. It is.

categorically quite simple to lose fat. It's practically hard. It's difficult. human endeavor, but categorically it's. incredibly simple. We only have a few. things we have to do and now you have a. billion choices of how to get there. So. if you are the type of person who. struggles with moderation, then I'm not going to give you. moderation. >> Moderation of calories. >> could be or exercise or environment. Do. you know the difference between baking.

and cooking? >> Uh yeah, I guess so. Conceptually, >> baking is chemistry. >> Okay. >> You mix something together and put in. the oven. You can't just fake the. amounts. >> because it won't rise, it won't set, it. won't do the things, right? If you're. cooking on a stove and you could just be. like, "Okay, what's in the. >> fridge? Put it in there.". >> You can't do that in baking, right? Depending on what you're baking. We will. address this fat loss problem with. trying to identify, are you a cook or. are you a baker personality type? Here's.

what I mean. If you came to me and we. were going to help you lose some fat, you're already pretty lean, but let's. say you wanted to just get super lean. All right, great. I would I first. question I would ask you is how do you. want this to operate? You get one of two. ways. One way is I tell you exactly what to. eat. You weigh and measure every single. thing. You do not deviate. You check. your weight every single day and you. follow exactly. what I tell you. The other option is I. give you concepts. We have one to three. rules. You're going to check weight.

maybe daily, maybe once a week. And I. want you to stay airtight to those. concepts. >> I prefer the concepts. >> Concepts. Great. Concepts or cooking. >> Okay. >> Baking, weigh and measure everything. Right. Here's why this matters. You're a. concept kind of guy. Why? You do not. want to be thinking about all that. little stuff cuz you got other stuff. you'd rather be thinking about, right? >> It's great because it's freeing. You know, the downside is. if you don't know exactly what's in your.

food and you don't have a really good. eye in calibration, someone like you. might have a hard time losing fat. because you're already at the end. We. need to be weighing that olive oil. We. need to be measuring that rice cup. We. can't just be like, a little bit of rice. over there, right? If you're trying to. lose a 100 pounds, we can probably eyeball a lot of things. and get really, really far. >> Yeah. >> But personality type is what I'm really. getting at here. Okay. If I gave that concept to some people. listening, some people would be going.

like like how many meals am I eating? Um. like what's what's the fiber? Like they. want the detail, right? >> What's the what's the concept? >> The concept could be something like. >> give me an example of a. >> I want you eating fresh vegetables at. every meal and I want you to have a. dedicated protein source every time you. eat. >> Okay, >> that might be the only rule I give you. Well, >> could it be an eating window? Could be. Sure. I could say, "Eat whatever you. want, but you're only going to eat. between these hours.". >> Okay? >> I could do whatever kind of one to three.

rules I want. I could say none of those. things and I'll just say, "All right, just cut out all your junk food.". >> Okay? >> I'm not going to tell you what to eat. I'm just going to give you a list of. things not to eat. I could only give you. I prefer to do the opposite. Defer to. give you things rather than take things. away because you're going to take those. things away, right? So, I could play. with your meal timing. I could play with. your meal frequency. I could play with. your meal composition. So, what types of. food you're eating, the combinations of. them, I could do anything there. And why. all those work because those are simply.

different strategies to likely reduce. food intake. That's all that's all we're really. doing. But some people hate that because. it's not enough detail. >> There's no specificity. There's no. precision. They get anxiety from. guessing. I've had plenty of athletes. before just be like, "Okay, but like 6. ounces of chicken or seven?" And I'm. like, "6.3." Like, "Okay." Like who. cares? Like it doesn't matter. But. they're just like they want they don't. want to make any decisions. >> Mhm. >> You have to make decisions about what. you're going to eat because you got only. have concepts. The nice part about the.

way you measure is you have no choices. >> I think the the average people listening. would rather have the concepts. Like. it's much easier for me to they they. busy lives. They don't want to be. weighing 6.3 g of so. >> so you'd be stunned. Most people want that. >> Most people want the. >> they want the detail because they don't. have to think. They don't have to guess. They don't have to worry. They don't. have to go, "God, like maybe I ate too. much today. Maybe I didn't or whatever.". >> But that's like hard to measure. >> Super hard. So, here's the. recommendation. Do the baking approach first for two.

weeks. >> And by that, you mean measure. everything. Understand what's in it. >> 100%. Then you can back off and start to. go, "Okay, I have a better sense of what. a tablespoon of peanut butter looks. like. I have a better sense of what a. cup of rice is. >> I'm getting a better sense of what. >> 3 ounces of this is, whatever. now I can. start toning things back. >> I think this is really great advice. because I think the big shifts that I've. seen in my own diet have have um been in. that exact order where for one.

particular week I did it might be. calorie counting or it might have been. some of these apps where you can scan. the food by using the barcode. >> and it tells you what's inside there. And through that it only took me a week. or two to discover that the things I ate. frequently weren't what I thought. >> Yeah. >> Both in quantity but also in like. nutritional profile. I think it's just. super important for as many people as. possible to spend at least a week doing. that. >> And then I could make informed decisions. about what I wanted to keep and what I. actually didn't really like that much.

Anyway, >> you know, I used to run this experiment. in class every year. These are graduate. students getting master's degrees in. this particular field and we would have. them do a seven-day diet recall. Just. measure weigh everything you eat for. seven days. Consistent themes that. popped up. Almost everyone ate way more fat than. they think. >> Is that a bad thing? >> If you're eating more calories than you. need. >> Oh, fat. So, it's the calories is the. problem versus the. >> That's not bad for you. And there's no. evil foods.

People ate way more carbohydrates than. they realized. Same answer. People ate. way less protein than I think. >> What about sugar? >> Everyone knows they're eating sugar. where they're always stunned is they're. like, "Whoa, I thought I was eating a. small percentage, you know, 20% of my. calories from fat." They didn't realize. they're at 40%. >> This is why the keto diet actually did. help me because it forced me to check. everything for a while. >> So, this is great. >> It was really learning. It was learning. what was in all these things that I. loved. And keto forced me. You know, the.

the principle of a concept that I had. when I was on keto was that I could have. about 50 grams of carbs a day roughly. >> and stay in ketogenic keto ketosis. rather. Yeah. So I would think about it. like a budget. I'd be like, "Oh, hm, I'd. spend 23 carb, you know, grams of carbs. on this particular thing." But but to do. that, I had to look at everything, research everything. >> Yeah. >> Um and now I have an intuitive idea. >> Exactly. The point is simply your. awareness and consciousness of what is. actually. >> in the elements that you want. And then. if you want to change and tweak, you can. do that cuz you know, but if you don't. have the knowledge, you can't even play.

the game. >> What are the big misconceptions about. exercise's role in weight loss? >> It is valuable. forever we've been. telling people burn more calories than. you ingest, right? And then then it's. still true. And then we had a bunch of. research pop out that was sort of like, hey, exercise is not playing the role we. think it is in fat loss. And those data. still hold true in the sense that you. don't burn as many calories in your. workouts as you think. Most of the time, if you hop on a piece of exercise. equipment and it tells you you burned x. amount of calories, you burned most. likely significantly less than that.

It's also true that there's there is. places where you can get to with. adaptive thermogenesis. Meaning if you. burn say 500 calories with exercise, if you are lean enough or non-lean. enough or fit enough or not fit enough, your body will change how many calories. it burns throughout the day in response. to that 500 calories from exercise. Meaning, you could be in a situation. theoretically where you burned 500.

calories in your workout, but then your. body downregulated your energy. expenditure by three or four or even up. to 500 calories. >> to make up for it. So, it was. >> you're neutral. >> Okay. >> When you're lean like that, that can. happen quite often, right? And so then. what do you do? You pull more calories. You train harder. You get a more of a. response. This is a like oh okay calorie. counting doesn't matter like it. absolutely matters may not be the. strategy you want but it matters there.

So then there was a big push of like. exercise is playing no role in fat loss. which was fundamentally also not true. because now we have meta analyses in the. recent years as well as more studies. showing probably the fairest way to say. it is exercise is a fantastic way to. burn some calories. It is not the only. thing that you can do though to lose. weight. You can handle weight loss. entirely through nutrition if you want. That said, people who exercise during.

their weight loss journey consistently. are better at keeping that fat off over. the weeks to years at the end of the. diet. >> You have a 54321 method. Oh, >> sure. 54321 was is just a little thing I. came up with that says, "All right, can. we help people with fat loss rules? Five. days a week be active. Now this can be exercise. It can be. walking. It can be your vocation. I. don't really care. But what was cons has. to happen with fat loss is you have to.

be able to produce caloric expenditure. and you got to do a lot of it. This is. my way of saying be active. And also I'm. saying it's cool to take a rest day too. Like it's totally fine to just veg. You. can do that. But be as active as you. possibly can. Then from there, I want. four days a week of structured exercise. One of these days can be a super hard. day. It can be light. One of those days. could be a yoga day. Like not all four.

days have to be head to the gym, volume. 11, like train as hard as you can. But. four days a week where I want you doing. structured exercise, at least three days. a week, I want you training hard enough. to sweat. If you're doing all that, you're active five days a week, you're. doing structured exercise four days a. week, three of those sessions, you're. doing it hard enough where you're. getting a really good solid sweat, you're probably doing enough to burn. enough calories to give yourself a. chance from the exercise perspective. um to losing weight. If you've done.

those first three, we could even we. could even just call it the 543. Like, you're in a pretty good spot. If you. mean more granular, I would love a. couple of days a week of strength. training and I would love at least one. day where your heart rate's getting. really, really, really high. >> So, a lot of people, including myself, often think, you know, I'm going to the. gym 3 4 days a week, but nothing's. changing. I feel like I've stagnated. >> Yeah. >> What is going on there? Typically, >> typical solutions for this are lack of. focus. And I don't mean in your. training. I mean in your programming.

So, if you are looking at your program. saying, I'm going to the gym 3 or 4 days. a week. First question would be, okay, what type of training program are you. on? >> I'm kind of just winging it. >> That's why. >> Okay. >> If I said the same thing to you and gave. you any business analogy here, you would. look at me in the face and smile. I'd be. like, you have a plan. Why would you. expect without a plan to get to any. particular direction? >> It's a good point. >> 80% of the time, that's the answer. Now, here's the thing, and we have literature. on this. There's good evidence. The plan. itself isn't the biggest factor. It's.

actually just having a plan. >> Interesting. >> Because you have the ability to. progressively overload. >> What does that mean? >> Meaning you were able to increase your. number of repetitions than you did last. week. You can do a few more sets than. you did. You can increase the load. You. can increase the range of motion. There's all kinds of ways that we can. overload the system progressively. You. can't do all that. >> This is, you know, I think this is. really the heart of it, which is most of. us go to the gym and we do the same. thing.

>> Totally. >> We do the same thing we did last week. We put the the stair master machine on. level eight and we do 10 minutes. And we. did that for the last 7 months. >> Yeah. >> Whereas we should really just put it up. one. But in order to do that, we kind of. need a plan as you say. >> because you can't just go up one every. time. >> Yeah. >> Like how many how many weeks in a row. can you add 5 lbs? >> Three, four. Like it's not going to be. very long. This is the entire reason. exercise is a scientific field, right? We have that. So my strong. recommendation would be if you're a. absolute beginner and you're not going.

to the gym at all, you're not doing. anything, you can probably use AI tools. and give you some basic starting. program. In fact, I people send these. things all the time to me be like, "Hey, I prompted my thing with like all of. your content and I have a complete. personalized training program from Andy. Galpin." I'm like, "Great." And I look. at them, I'm like, "Pretty good." Like, "All right, that's pretty reasonable.". And it's they're good enough to get you. started. They're going to get you the. basics. They're going to get you going. and then you have something to follow. for six, eight, 10 weeks, whatever.

>> Let me ask AI for Andy Galpins. >> Put in your constraints. Tell it how. many days a week. >> Okay, let's do it like so everyone can. hear. Hi. Um, I want to go to the gym 4 days a. week and I want Andy Galpin's formula. for me to gain muscle, but what are the. principles that I need to apply based on. Andy Galpin's work over the next 4. months in order to gain this muscle? >> To gain muscle in strength over the next. 4 months, you'll want to focus on a few.

key principles from Dr. Galpin's work. First, prioritize progressive overload. by gradually increasing the weight, reps, or sets over time. Second, use a. variety of repetition ranges, incorporating both heavy low rep work. for strength and moderate to high rep. work for muscle growth. Finally, ensure. you're taking adequate rest between. sets, usually two to 5 minutes for heavy. compound movements to allow for full. recovery and maintain high quality. effort. Pretty good. That's not There's a little.

bit of hallucination in there, which is. AI, but that's pretty close. >> A lot of people aren't doing this now, aren't they? using AI is like the. >> we saw a huge pendulum in the last 5. years. 2020 almost ended health and. fitness. Gyms went out of business. Everyone went. home. Everyone bought their exercise. equipment. And as soon as AI came. online, online coaching tanked and. online companies got crippled cuz. everyone was like, "Why am I going to. pay you a hundred bucks a month, 200. bucks a month, 300 bucks a month for. that?".

>> And they were right. It's going the. exact opposite now. It's already swung. back. In-person training is way more in. demand. >> I'm not surprised. >> because. >> everyone's tired of that. >> It's also personal trainers don't just. tell you what to do. No, >> they make sure you do it, you know? So, >> how do I do it? It's the emotion. It's. the connection. >> It's the emotion. It's the connection. It's the like holding me accountable. >> So, what you're seeing is people going, "It was never about the information.". >> Yeah. We always had the information. >> We always had it. Nothing in that. >> I made up.

>> Yeah. That stuff's been around for like. it's funny. Every time I talk about like. exercise prescription, somebody will hit. the comments and be like, "Why don't you. give credit to blah blah blah? They're. the one that invented that." And I'm. like, "None of us invented this stuff.". >> Mhm. >> Dumbbells, barbells, like rep rang. This. is. It's not the information. It's never. been it. >> So, what is it then? Like, why why do. people keep listening to these. conversations when they kind of a lot of. them kind of know the stuff? I don't. know what's happening on your platform, but a lot of people are not listening to.

podcasts anymore because you're going to. see this probably in the comments. section. Hey, Grock, tell me the 10. actionable things from this three-hour. conversation. >> Cuz they just try and extract the data, right? >> Mhm. >> And then they don't do anything. You. know who's going to take action from. this? The people who listened. >> True. Yeah. Yeah. Because it's not it's. the it's not the information. >> Yeah. In part in part it is the story. And I say the story in particular. because one of the most compelling. things that we see on these podcasts is. when you tell me real case studies of. real people. You talk about what Jenny.

did and you were training Jenny and she. had this thing and she was permenopause. and she did this thing with this thing. and da. >> and people go ah okay those stay with. me. >> You know what I'm willing to pay for you. know what the world is willing to pay. for. Have you done it before? >> Oh yeah. Yeah. True. Human experience. like lived experience. So when you see a. story, you're able to go, "Okay, I. believe that person's done it. >> and now I trust that opinion because I. could just go grab the program, right?". The other thing is it's saving me time. Like you could sit there and go, "Okay, here's all the prompts and whatever,

throw it in there and get your own. training program." Or you could be like, "Yo, I'm just going to go pay Andy. I. know he's done it before. I trust him. and now I'm going to go spend my time on. this other thing that I care about. learning about and spending my time on.". Are there any commonalities in the. catalyst moment that causes behavior. change in people who are otherwise. stubborn? So I think everyone that I I. sit with and just even myself there's a. there was a moment in my life where I. heard something or something happened. where I go Yeah. >> And that was the day it was like a.

before and after moment I call them that. was the day that I decided to take this. seriously. >> Yeah. >> And do you see any commonalities in what. that is for different people? >> It's such a fabulous question and I. don't have a good answer for you. >> because it's always so different. >> It's so hard. I would love to say. it was the rock bottom moment. I mean, it can be true. It's not always true. >> Can I suggest another. >> please? >> Maybe like big life changes like kids, >> death, friend, family, life becomes. real. >> I've heard that a few times on this show. actually. >> You'll see that. Um,

>> my dad had a heart attack and that's. crazy. The threat of death doesn't. motivate anybody, >> right? >> If it would have, we wouldn't have a 40%. obesity rate. >> Yeah. Who doesn't know obesity tanks? Everybody knows. It's not a information. issue. You know the risks associated. with alcohol, smoking, social media. That does not change behavior. You get. closer though when it it's at home, right? Somebody died in the car. accident. I'll I'm going to stop looking at. my phone while I drive cuz my neighbor.

just died. My ex Like that's the thing. that makes you go. >> too close to home. >> That's so true. I was saying to my. fiance when I was um driving the other. day in the car cuz I'm notorious for. asking everybody to put their seat belts. on. If we get in a car, I'm the guy in a. black cab or I'm like, "Everyone, could. you put your seat belts on, please?" My. team know this as well. Like if we going. anywhere, I look around at every single. person to make sure they have their seat. belts on. Yeah. >> When did this begin? When I was 10 years. old. >> Yeah. >> And they came to my school. I remember. being sat in the front row. I almost. remember my seat number. It was that.

vivid for me. Two things I remember from. 10 years old. >> They brought a mother who had lost her. child in a car accident. And then they. brought out a police person and he. described going to the scene of the. accident, looking down at the person who. had just been in a car accident's phone, realizing that they were deceased, and. then looking down and seeing their phone. ringing and it said, "Mom.". >> And I just I've never forgotten it. It. was somewhat traumatic, but it's meant. that for the rest of my life, I've. policed seat belts. >> Yeah. >> And that's what I mean by these catalyst.

moments where an idea gets in your head. and it just completely changes. >> Yeah. And so I'm wondering what those. ideas are for people as it relates to. like weight loss and health. And so we. we ticked off some of them. Someone gets. a line in your family. Maybe a diagnosis. in the performance perspective. This is. when we would argue for data. because we've had this happen earlier in. my career with a professional athlete. who was not fast enough and was. convinced he was fast. And then we put. him on a force plate and we started. collecting objective data. And at the. same time, I had some of my students.

around and I had them do it kind of like. what you did with your grip strength. with Jeff and was like, "You see how. they're as fast as you are?" And he was. like, "Oh, everything changed." Like he was totally. bought in, made every training change. that we asked. He had to see it in front. of his face. Like he had to see his. data. So my other answer to that to you. would be now that we've democratized. health in this sense, the ability to see. your own data, I would be willing to bet. had I pulled up a blood panel that had.

the cholesterol levels that you saw and. I said, "Oh, this is a client of mine.". You would be like, "Oh, okay, great. Uh-huh. Uh-huh." But then when I pull up. yours and say, "This is," you're like, "Sit. over." Like, "We're done with that.". Right? Like there's no question. I was. looking for some research and there's. some um evidence here backed by some. research that goes to answer the. question and I think we actually. answered we hit most of them which is an. acute health shock or diagnosis which is. the primary catalyst. >> um various health events which become.

wakeup calls which you talked about as. well which is. >> someone else a peer or friend or. sibling. Number three you touched on as. well which is this quantitive biometric. feedback so data. >> Yep. >> Um yep. >> it says major life this one we didn't. touch on major life transitions i.e. >> Yeah. um such as becoming a parent, turning a landmark age like 30, 40, or. 50. >> Yeah. >> Or reaching retirement. You see that a. lot? >> Yeah. You know what? Actually, that made. me think. Here's one we've seen the. most. Sold my company.

>> Oh, >> that one changes everyone's life. It's. similar to post gold depression. >> Oh, you've lost purpose. What do I do? >> I need to do something. >> Now I got Now I got money. Now I have. time. >> Interesting. >> I'm investing in my health now. like I. didn't I sacrificed my health the last. 20 years. Ding ding ding ding ding. Now. I got to turn around and I'm like okay. >> But is it also just like I need a new. purpose and my body then becomes the the. project. >> That's exactly what it is where in the. past I had the excuse of sacrificing for.

the company. >> and I I couldn't focus on myself. It was. selfish. It wasn't fiduciarily. responsible to do that. And now I have. no more excuse. Well, looking at this. list then, listen, we can't we're going. to pray no one in your family or no one. you know gets sick. So, let's stay away. from that one. >> Um the the two of them there that can be. quite motivating and again, we don't. want to motivate you if you're. completely fine. But this actually. answers the question is to go and get. your health checked. >> Yeah, >> that's like a simple solution because. maybe you're fine and that's great.

maybe you're doing everything right, but. also um just saying, "Oh, I want to lose. a bit of weight or I want to do this. isn't as solid enough as going and. finding out how you're doing.". >> One thing also I think is important cuz. I will default to performance and. optimization and getting the best and. excellence. Like that's just the. language and stuff I do, but that's not. the opposite of what you just said. To. be really clear on that point, not everyone gravitates the idea of. being the best possible ever. >> Yeah. Totally fine. But that still.

doesn't mean it's okay to just check out. on your health. You can have it both. ways. You can be like, "Look, I'm not an. optimizer. I'm not a maximizer. I'm not. that doesn't. li live with my ethos." And cool. We can. still though say you still want to live. that life for as long as possible, right? All right. Let's just make sure. we're paying enough attention to where. nothing catches up and we're not waking. up one day and being like, "Oh my gosh, now I've got to go invest all these time. and resource energy and all those things.

and go backwards in that." So pay. attention enough. >> How important is it to get clear on your. why? >> You're not going to love the answer. because. traditionally when people approach me, they already have that figured out. They're getting to me. they figured out. why they're here or they're if they. haven't figured it out, they at least. have had the motivation to seek outside. counsel like that. >> Mhm. >> So now they're getting to the what and. how part. >> What about bad goals? I I look back at.

my life and I had some bad goals that. set me up for. >> that's more realistic to what we will. do. >> Okay. >> And this is a you're aiming at the wrong. target. >> I was aiming at my goal when I was 20 I. think it was 27 was to go to the gym. every day and I failed. >> Oh yeah. Yeah. >> I failed six months later but then once. I failed it was catastrophic for me. How. are you not going to fail? >> Yeah. Yeah. But yeah. And. >> like were you going to go every day the. rest of your life? >> It was a terrible goal because the day. that I missed one day cuz some flight my. it was like my entire motivation was. over. >> Yeah. Yeah. Sure. >> And I was like, "How do I get back on.

the horse now?". >> Yeah. Here's an example. You want to. lose fat. >> Your goal is fat loss. Cool. Why aren't. you leaner right now? And you. automatically think, "I have to exercise. more and diet." And I'm like, "Great. That's the tactic. I want to know why you're not there. right now. >> Like what is the thing that's actually. getting in the way? Because like. calorie, fine. Like yeah. Yeah. Like you. know that though, but it's not working. What is really in the way? Do we. actually have some hidden stressor? Um a.

lot of times people will say things like. I I got to lose fat so I can get. healthy. >> And we will generally say you need to. get healthy first. >> and then the fat loss will be a whole. lot easier. That's the bad goal. And and. so we'll ask this question like, "What. would success look like? What would. failure look like?" And when we hear. things like, "Oh, success is I'll lose. these 25 pounds." All right, great. Let. me ask you this. If we lost 12 pounds and then your.

shoulder pain went away, you have normal. bowel movements now for the first time. in 10 years. Your energy is way up. Is that all a failure? No. That's. success. So then we didn't just find. success properly. >> So it is a huge focus of of how we help. people actually make progress in those. areas that they've struggled with. Dr. Andy Galpin, we have a closing tradition. where the last guest leaves a question. for the next, not knowing who they're. leaving it for. And the question left. for you is, if you were sure to fail,

what would still be worth doing? What a great question. >> Yeah, >> fantastic question. I am. ultra competitive, but I really don't mind losing. So, my. answer to that question was, it sounds. like a copout, but it's all of it cuz I. actually don't care about failing that. much. It just doesn't bother me. Like, I. just like the competing thing. I like. the doing thing. So, my initial reaction. to that was like, God, being around my.

kids, right? There's you fail anything. you want there. And I'm like, winning, right? And then I went to business. things and I'm like I don't even really. care about losing those like. >> cuz you get to do it. You get to be. active and whatever. So kind of a cop. out but my answer would be all of them. man. Like. >> the process is dope. >> The podium is the process. >> Yeah man. >> Or the process over the podium. >> Dr. Andy Galbin, thank you so much. Thank you. You're held in such high. regard by everybody. I think there's two. reasons. I think it's so you're so. deeply obsessed with this subject matter. for reasons that we talked a lot about.

last time, but also I think the essence. of your motivations is so unbelievably. pure. You before we started recording. you were saying to me how like you. you're really not that concerned with. the business side of things because what. you'd love to do is just be focusing on. the research, the education, and the. coaching. And I think that says a lot. about you and it comes through. People. understand that you're just deeply. obsessed about this stuff in a way which. allows us to benefit tremendously from. all the work that you have done. and. you're a wonderful synthesizer of very. very complex things. So please carry on.

doing what you're doing. If people want. to go and listen to your show or if they. want to go consume more of your stuff, if they want to continue this journey. with you, where do they go? Where's the. best place to send them? >> Well, first of all, thank you for those. kind words and to be invited back. It's. it's a huge opportunity. I will never be. ungrateful for it. Uh my podcast is. called Perform with Dr. Andy Galpin. Available everywhere. and then. andygalpin.com and social media, Instagram and all that stuff is probably. the easiest way to follow along. >> I highly recommend you go and subscribe. to Andy's channel and we're going to. link it down below now. But it's um it's.

what you're incredibly rigorous with all. the work that you do. Having spoken to. Andrew Andrew Huberman, who's a good. friend of both of ours. He he's also. told me just how utterly obsessed you. are with truth and also your mission of. helping people become who they could be. Um and that shines through in all of. your work. So, please go and subscribe. to Andy's podcast as well, perform, and. um I shall link all of his other. resources below, including some of them. that we've mentioned today, including. the tests and questionnaires that we. talked about. Andy, thank you. YouTube.

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