Sleep Doctor: If You Wake Up At 3AM, DO NOT Do This!

What are the most popular questions. people come to you with as a sleep. doctor? >> There's three biggies. [music] Number. one is what do I do if I fall asleep. okay and I wake up in the middle of the. night and I can't fall back asleep. >> And you can help people with that? >> Absolutely. The second question is what. pillow should I buy? And I'm going to. walk you through which pillows make. sense for which people. And then another. one that people ask me all the time is. what's the best time to have sex? >> That's a strange thing for somebody of. your profession to be asked about. >> Well, let me explain why. So, I've been. an actively practicing sleep specialist. for 26 years. I take care of people's.

sleep problems like apnea and insomnia. And I'm really interested in the things. that you might be doing right now that. are messing up your sleep that are easy. to fix. So, for example, most people. don't know that they have a genetic. sleep code inside them called their. chronotype, [music]. which decides when your brain releases. things like melatonin, cortisol, adrenaline, and dopamine. [music] And. so, I can show you based on your. chronotype when it's bedtime, but also. the perfect time of day to do almost any. activity. Including the perfect [music]. time to have coffee and alcohol. >> Crazy. >> There's even data to show that your.

ability to understand complicated. concepts [music] improves when you're. more in line with your chronotype. Now, there are three known chronotypes, but. what I'm famous for [music] is. discovering a fourth one, which I think. might be you. So, we're going to talk a. lot about that. We're also going to talk. about dreams because dreams [music] can. tell you things about yourself that you. may not want to know. And then there's. how to fix jet lag, whether you should. sleep with a TV [music] on, the truth. about melatonin supplementation, and my. favorite way to get magnesium. >> Before we get into all of that, shall we. go and look at the best possible sleep.

position? >> Yeah, let's check it out. >> Guys, I've got a quick favor to ask you. We're approaching a significant. subscriber milestone on this show and. roughly 69% of you that listen and love. this show haven't yet subscribed for. whatever reason. If there was ever a. time for you to do us a favor, if we've. ever done anything for you, giving you. value in any way, it is simply hitting. that subscribe button. And it means so. much to myself, but also to my team cuz. when we hit these milestones, we go away. as a team and celebrate. And it's the. thing, the simple, free, easy thing you. can do to help make this show a little.

bit better every single week. So, that's. a favor I would ask you. And um if you. do hit the subscribe button, I won't let. you down and we'll continue to find. small ways to make this whole production. better. Thank you so much for being part. of this journey. Means the world. And uh. yeah, let's do this. >> [music]. [singing]. >> Dr. Bruce, yes. What is it you do? Why does it matter so much now? And what perspective do you take on what. you do that is atypical versus other.

people I might have spoken to about this. subject? >> I'm a sleep doctor. Um I take care of. people's sleep problems like apnea, narcolepsy, insomnia, things like that. I've dedicated a good portion of my. career not just to understanding how to. treat those disorders, which are sleep. disorders, but what I also I call. disordered sleep. I'm really interested. in behavioral habits, what's going on, what are the things that you might be. doing right now that are kind of messing. up your sleep that are easy to fix um.

and be able to maybe change how things. are going forward. You know, I I didn't. start out thinking I was going to become. a sleep doctor. If I'm going to be. honest with you. Like that that was not. on the on the path. Um I was actually. going in a completely different. direction. And. one of the things I really discovered. was when you change someone's sleep, dude, you change their life. Like it is. fundamental to who they are. And it's. important for me to be a sleep educator. in a way, shape, and form that's. practical so that people can actually. get something from what I'm talking. about and apply it right then and there.

>> And there's probably a couple of million. people that have clicked onto this. conversation to listen. >> Yeah. >> Who is this conversation for? >> I think it's for anybody out there who's. either curious about sleep or wants to. try to improve their sleep or maybe. suspicious that they could have a. problem with their sleep. I think any. one of those three types of people would. find tremendous value here. >> And what What going to be able to do for. those people today? >> Specifically. >> So, I'm going to give people um several. different like plans, if you will. Maybe. even a five-step plan of things that. they can absolutely learn how to do.

They're also going to learn about a. genetic sleep code that they have inside. them called their chronotype. A lot of. people don't even know that they have a. chronotype, or maybe they've heard of. the of the idea, but they haven't ever. heard of the term. We're going to learn. a lot about that. We're also going to. talk about dreams a little bit. I'm. excited to have the opportunity to do. that. I've spent the last year and a. half learning more about how to use. dreams in my clinical work as a. psychologist, which is very interesting. stuff. So, I'm excited to share some of. that. So, I think people are going to. learn a whole bunch. >> And dreams matter? >> Oh, yeah. They absolutely matter. I I.

call dreams emotional metabolism, right? And so, when you're dreaming, what is. you what is the function? What is the. purpose? What are you doing? You're. actually working through your emotional. states that you had during the daytime. Um this is why we have nightmares, right? And so, in a nightmare, it's a. scary scene, and all of a sudden it gets. so emotional, you wake up. That is. officially called a nightmare, that. awakening, but you stop processing. And. when you go back to sleep, you go back. to the dream, and you get to that scary. point, you wake up again, and you get caught in.

this loop, right? And so, dreams matter. because they can be incredibly. disruptive. Also, they can tell you. things about yourself that you may not. want to know or may not have in the. front of your mind at all times, right? Sometimes people have very interesting. dreams, like dreams of being chased or. dreams of their teeth falling out or all. these different things, and they can. mean a whole host of different things. But, I want to be super clear. There's. no guidebook that says, "Hey, you know, if you're if you're dreaming of that. you're in water, you hate your mother.". Like, it doesn't really work that way.

Dreams mean something to the dreamer. And so, the goal is to understand the. context within that. So, who is the. dreamer? What is the dream? And then, how do those two work together? >> And what is the experience that you're. drawing from academically, but also. professionally? Give me a a view of how. many people you've worked with and the. diseases and your the range of things. people come to you with. >> Yeah, so I've been an actively. practicing sleep specialist for 26. years. So, I work in offices with. medical doctors because I'm not a. medical doctor. I have a PhD and I work.

with them on their patients. A lot of. insomnia patients, but also the apneas, the restless legs, the narcolepsies of. the world because I have kind of a. unique distinction in that I'm one of. 168 people in the world who took the. medical boards without going to medical. school and passed. So, I can work within. that framework and really understand a. lot of what's going on. I don't. prescribe medication, but if I'm honest. with you, most people don't need sleep. medication as far as I'm concerned. I. can get them to sleep usually without. any medication at all. >> And you're a psychologist as well. >> I am. I'm a clinical psychologist.

>> And how does those two worlds. make 1 + 1 = 3? >> Sure. So, when you talk about sleep, psychology is all over the place. I. would argue 75% of the reason people. don't sleep is anxiety or fear. That. really falls well within the range of. psychology for sure. Um, and it's. different kinds of fears. It's fears. that you know about that are right in. your face like something that's going on. in your daytime, but it could be other. fears. It could be fears of your. relationship. It could be financial. fears. It could be a whole host of. different things. So, I think there's a. lot of psychology that gets to be played.

in all of this kind of thing. >> Look, I've got two more questions before. we really get into the details, specifics, and start really helping the. audience with whatever they're dealing. with. The first is. we have lots of props here. >> Yes. >> Give me a. top line view of the types of things. you're going to show me and why you've. brought all of these wonderful props. >> Absolutely. So, I get asked a lot of. questions as you might imagine. And um, one of the big questions that I get. asked is what bed and pillow should I. buy? So, sitting next to you is a large. stack of pillows, all different types. actually, and I want to be able to show.

some of your viewers how you look at. pillows and which pillows make sense for. which people. Believe it or not, there's. like a fitting process. We're going to. go through that. This device right here. is a sleep test, believe it or not. So, it used to be we'd have to send you to. the hospital. Yeah, you can unwind it. Uh you have to send you to the hospital, we'd put 27 electrodes all over your. body, respiratory belts across your. chest, we'd have cameras zoomed in on. you, and then by the way, you're. supposed to be able to go to sleep, right? And we're supposed to be able to. monitor to you. Now, historically we. were able to do that pretty well, but.

once COVID hit, nobody wanted to sleep. in the same bed that somebody else had. been sleeping in the day before. So, now. we have what are called HSTs or home. sleep tests. >> Wow. >> Yeah, we'll talk about how to use it and. and what it can tell you. >> My last question before we get into the. details is what are the most popular. questions that people come to you with. as a sleep doctor? >> Yeah. So, I'd say there's probably three. biggies, right? Number one is, "Hey Dr. Bruce, I fall asleep just fine, but I. wake up somewhere between 1 and 3:00 in. the morning, and it either takes me 20.

minutes or 3 hours to fall back asleep. What the heck is going on there?". >> And you can help people with that. >> Absolutely. I'm going to give everybody. a exactly what I do in clinic. Like, I'm. going to explain to everybody exactly. what I say to my patients and how to go. about getting through that particular. problem because it's it's so flagrant, everybody needs to know how to how to. work with that. The second question. would be um what bed should I buy or. what pillow should I buy? I think we're. going to address that over here. Um and. then another one that people ask me all. the time is, you know,

is there some kind of timing? Is there. something like I feel like my body is. off. They say this all the time. They're. like, "If I just lived in a different. time zone, I feel like everything would. work out well.". >> So, the very basics of sleep. Uh-huh. What do I need to know about what sleep. is, the role it serves for us to even. understand the context of the things. we're going to talk about today? >> Yep. There's only a few things that are. truly important to understand about. sleep. One is how does sleep work in the. brain? It turns out that there's two. separate systems in the brain. One is.

you called your sleep drive, the other. is called your sleep rhythm, and they. both work uh in an interesting way. They're both a little bit like hunger, right? So, sleep drive is like hunger. cuz like I'm hungry, I'm hungry, I'm. hungry. I eat something and that hunger. begins to dissipate. Same holds true. with sleep. The longer you stay awake, the more the more sleepy that you get. When you look at it from a biology. standpoint, it's kind of interesting. So, when a cell eats a piece of glucose, something comes out the back end. One of. those things is called adenosine. It. works its way through your system and. goes to a very specific receptor area. As adenosine accumulates, you get.

sleepier and sleepier and sleepier. Now, why am I going into so much detail? Turns out when you look at adenosine and. you look at caffeine, they're off by one. molecule. So, here's a little tip or trick early. in the pod for everyone. I call it the. nap-a-latte. So, what you do is you take. a cup of drip black coffee, just throw. in couple ice cubes, right? Merely to. cool it down. Drink it as fast as you. can, then immediately take a 25-minute. nap. The adenosine that's built up in. your brain will burn through while.

you're napping. Caffeine, since it's so. close in molecular structure, can fit. into that receptor site. It any new. adenosine, you're good for 4 hours, guaranteed. I use it with every CEO that. I work with. So, let's say you only got. 3 hours of sleep the other night and. you've got a big presentation to do or. an award ceremony or something like. that, you can do a nap-a-latte for about. 25 minutes or so and you will feel much. better. That's sleep drive. >> Let me just do. >> Sure. >> I want to make sure everybody understand. this. Can you explain this to me again.

as if I'm a 16-year-old? Why having a. coffee and then taking a nap would make. me feel energetic? Because one would. think that having a coffee and taking a. nap would be like uh. >> Would be almost impossible, right? >> Yeah. >> So, number one, the caffeine doesn't. kick in before the end of the nap. So, a. lot of people think when I drink coffee, boom, it just kind of. spins up and all of a sudden I'm able. to, you know, I get a lot of energy from. it. That's really not actually how. caffeine works. It has to go down, has. to get absorbed, has to be digested. And. so, while all that's going on, which.

takes approximately 25 to 30 minutes, you're actually taking a nap to lower. the amount of adenosine that has built. up in your brain. Let's say it's 2:00 in. the afternoon and you only slept for 4. hours and you are dragging, right? All. that adenosine that's built up, when you. take that 25-minute nap, you'll burn. through a lot of it and then caffeine. fits in and blocks any additional. adenosine from coming in. So that way, you're actually adding caffeine to the. situation and boom, your energy goes. straight up. >> Okay, so adenosine is makes me tired.

>> Exactly. >> docked in my brain. >> Exactly. >> So I have 4 hours sleep, which means. there's lots of adenosine. And sleep get. clears the adenosine. >> Correct. And then caffeine comes in cuz. it fits so perfectly into that receptor. site and off you go. That's sleep drive. Sleep rhythm has to. do with your circadian rhythm, right? [clears throat] And so lots of lots of. information about that, but basically. your circadian rhythm is also a lot like. hunger, right? You ever notice you're. hungry around breakfast time, around. lunch time, around dinner time, right? That's your circadian rhythm for hunger.

For sleep, most people, at least here in. North America, have a tendency to fall. asleep somewhere between like 10:30 and. 11:00, 11:30 at night. So that's kind of. the circadian rhythm there. So when your. circadian rhythm is high and your drive. is high, you sleep. But if either one of. them is off, that's when you have a. sleep disorder or disordered sleep. >> My circadian rhythm is high. >> When your circadian rhythm is on point. >> On point. >> High is probably not the right word. On. point, so meaning you are abiding by. your circadian rhythm. Now, another. question you might say to me is, well, how do I know what my circadian rhythm.

is? And we're going to talk a lot about. chronotypes cuz that's what your. circadian rhythm is. >> Okay, so let's do chronotypes then. You've got some cards in front of you. >> I do. I kind of like these cards. So when we. talk about chronotypes, a lot of people. may have heard of the idea but not. actually heard the term chronotype. before. So if anybody out there has ever. been called an early bird or a night. owl, those are chronotypes. So we've got. early birds. These are people who, by. the way, this is genetic. You don't have. You don't actually get to choose this. There's a special area on your genome.

called the PER3. area. And when you have something called. a single nucleotide polymorphism, or a. snip, if it's flipped one way, you're an. early bird. If it's flipped another way, you're a night owl. If it's not flipped, you're in the middle, okay? So, so far, I haven't told anybody anything new. Like, this is this is all stuff that. we've already learned. The new part is. this irregularity that seems to happen. for people during for their sleep. schedule. Specifically, an irregularity. in their melatonin and cortisol. production. So, all of this is.

predicated on when does your body make. melatonin? So, if you're an early bird, your body makes melatonin earlier in the. night, starting at around 8:00 in the. evening. Makes you want to go to bed. around 9:30. You have a question? >> So, melatonin is a hormone. >> It is. >> that. >> It's produced inside of your body that. actually helps you sleep. It guides It. tells your body when it's bedtime, which. is a little bit different than the. adenosine, which makes you feel sleepy. >> I guess people listening now would be. asking themselves, why does it matter to. know my chronotype? Like, as it relates.

to my productivity, the way I live my. life, my relationships, whatever matters. to me. Why does it matter? >> Because I can show you, based on your. chronotype, the perfect time of day to. do almost any activity. So, if you If. you know when your body is doing certain. things, when it has melatonin, or when. it has cortisol, or adrenaline, or all. these other things, if you know the. schedule, you can actually just change. your activity to when your body is. naturally producing the hormone, and. then you do the hormone better. >> Okay. >> So, let's talk about the easy one, which. is sex, right? So, a lot of people want.

to know, "Hey, Michael, what's the best. time to have sex?" By the way, I think. that might be the third question that I. get asked most um often, other than uh. the insomnia one and the mattress one. I. think is, "What's the best time for. sex?" might be the the other question. that I get asked more than anything. >> if you the time you want to have sex and. the time your partner wants to have sex. are off. >> Well, think about it like this. What if. your partner's an early bird and you're. a night owl? >> Yeah, I think that's me. >> Don't worry, we're going to we're going. to be able to fix you. So, first of all, there's a couple of different answers to. this question. So, number one is you.

want to have a time So, first of all, most people are intimate between 10:30. and 11:30 at night. That's just a survey. that we did. So, it makes kind of a lot. of sense. But, here's what's interesting. is your hormone profile doesn't look too. good at 11:30 at night for having sex. In order to have successful sex, you. want to have estrogen, testosterone, progesterone, adrenaline, and cortisol. all to be high, and melatonin to be low. >> Mhm. >> What do you think your hormone profile. looks like at 10:30 at night? It's. literally the opposite, right? Melatonin. is high, and all those other things are. low. That's hint number one as to when.

would probably be the best time to have. sex. Hint number two, if you happen to. be having sex with somebody who was born. biologically male, what do most men wake. up with in the morning? An erection. If that's not Mother Nature. telling you when to use that thing, I. don't know what is, right? So, when you. start to look at it, and we actually did. the surveys, we discovered that people. actually have greater connection and. greater performance in their sex when. they have sex in the morning time. Now, do you have to brush your teeth and. throw in a little mouthwash first? Yes, of course you do. Like, let's be fair to.

your partner here. But, you end up. learning quite a bit. Again, your body. is telling you this is actually the. perfect time to do something like this. Did you know there's like a perfect time. to have coffee? >> I didn't. >> Yeah, there's absolutely a perfect time. based on your chronotype, too. One of. the first things that I ask people all. the time, I'll ask you, um is the first. liquid that crosses over your lips in. the morning caffeinated? >> Yes. >> So, let's talk about why that's probably. not the best idea. So, most people don't. know, sorry. Most people don't know, but.

uh sleeping in and of itself is a. dehydrative event. You lose almost a. full liter of water just from the. humidity in your breath by by breathing. all night long. Caffeine is a diuretic, which means it makes you have to go pee. So, when you're already lost a liter, now you add a couple of cups of. caffeine, which makes you have to pee, you're going to turn into a raisin. before this whole thing is through, okay? So, we need to get some water. inside of you. And so, one of the big. recommendations that I give all of my. patients is don't have caffeine for the. first 90 minutes you're awake. Now,

you're going to sit here and say, "90 minutes, that's Michael, that's a. long time not to have any caffeine. Like, how am I going to do that? Like, I've got my morning routine. I can smell. the coffee in the morning. It smells so. good. Everything's going. How's How's. this going to work?" Let me explain the. biology. In order to exit a state of. unconsciousness, you need two hormones. and then you need a lot of them. You. need adrenaline and cortisol and they. both wake you up. When you have a brain. that's full of adrenaline and cortisol. and you add caffeine to it, it's like. it's like adding weak tea to somebody.

who's taking cocaine. Okay? It's not a very powerful stimulant. compared to the hormones that are in. your brain that are a powerful. stimulant. But, if you just wait 90. minutes, cortisol and adrenaline. naturally drop. If you have your. caffeine then, it actually boosts the. cortisol and gives you a bigger bang for. your buck. So, you hydrate before you caffeinate. And about the amount, somewhere between. 15 and 20 oz of water. If you can get. that down in the first hour and a half. that you're awake, >> What's that in.

English terms? >> Oh, I don't know what the We'll have to. look it up. >> cup? Is it two cups? >> Oh, I would say it's probably three to. four cups of water. >> Okay, well, I'll look it up. >> Well, don't forget you've lost a lot of. water while you're sleeping and you. might have lost it the previous day. because let's say you worked out or. things like that. >> So, let's get into these chronotypes. then. >> Yeah. So, let's start off with the lion. So, lions are my early birds. Um you. know you've got a lion in your midst. when you get an email at 6:00 a.m. Right? That's somebody who's been up for. a while and who's got their brain kind.

of cooking. Um lions like to make a list. and go from step one to step two to step. three every single day. They get a lot. of confidence and they get a lot of. pleasure following uh this list. But, if. I'm honest with you, being a lion isn't. all it's cracked up to be because dinner. and a movie is out for a lot They've. been up since like 4:30, 5:00 in the. morning, right? They don't want to go. see a concert late at night. They want. to go to bed at like 8:30, 9:00. So, when you're looking at lions or what I. early birds what I call lions, they've. got some very interesting.

characteristics. They make up between 10. and 15% of the population. From a. biological characteristic standpoint, their melatonin stops early and their. cortisol starts early. So, their. melatonin stops at about 4:30, 5:00 in. the morning and that's when cortisol. starts and that's the reason why they. wake up so early. >> What sort of window do do lions wake up. in? >> So, it's interesting because I've got. some lions who are kind of extreme like. they're getting up at 4:30 in the. morning, which is not really probably. the best idea. But generally speaking, my lions get up right around 5:00, 5:15.

up until about 6:00, 6:30. They are. definitely my early risers. They have a. small breakfast. They don't like to eat. a lot of food early in the in the. morning time because a lot of these. people like to go work out fairly. quickly after they've after they've. woken up, which is very different than. some of my other chronotypes. My night. owls don't like to work out in the. morning. They don't like to do anything. in the morning. So, my lions like to. work out early in the morning, a light. breakfast, and also their best work. window is usually somewhere between like. 9:30 and 11:30. Like that's when all the. good stuff gets done. Like when they.

have if they have to get details or they. have to do brainstorming or things like. that, that's really kind of where a lot. of the magic happens for them. By about. 2:00 in the afternoon, there's not a lot. of stuff left inside the lion to be able. to do do a lot of good things. That's. when I have lions do more physical. activities that don't require a lot of. cognition. So, maybe you go for an. afternoon walk or maybe you have you. know, your your meeting with your folks. that may not be really detail oriented. but more process oriented in the. afternoon. >> Admin and stuff. >> Yeah, absolutely. I actually had one.

fellow chronotype his entire company and. and move meetings based on who was going. to be in the meeting. Like if like he. had all the early birds and he had. meeting at 8:00 in the morning and then. all the night owls he had a meeting at. 4:00 in the afternoon. He said it was. amazing. He said it worked out really. really well. Wow. >> What's the next one? >> So the next one is the bear. So bears. are representative of people that are in. between early birds and night owls, right? So bears are the best. Honestly, dude, I wish I was a bear because the.

whole schedule of life works on a bear. schedule. 9:00 to 5:00 is perfect for a. bear and they make up between 50 and 55%. of the population. So literally one out. of two people is a bear. >> And when's their peak work time? >> So their peak work time has a tendency. to be sort of in the noon to 2:00 range. Um they're a little bit later than what. you would see with the lion. Some of. them I think can actually be better at. 11:00. It's kind of interesting. We've. had almost 3 million people take the. quiz and we've discovered that inside of. bears there appear to be early bears and.

later bears. So there are people who. fall into that category but like to get. up a little bit earlier. So for them. their productivity window is probably. 10:30 11:00 but for the later bears it's. more like 11:30 12:00 and then it's. about a 2-hour window after that. >> For the people listening, um on screen. at the moment is a grid showing you the. different chronotypes, the wake times, the peak work window and the sort of. afternoon slump time. What's the next. chronotype? >> So the next chronotype is me, the wolf. >> I think I'm a wolf. >> [laughter]. >> You might be a wolf.

>> I love lions, I think I'm a wolf. >> All right, well you might be. Hey, look, join me. It'd be great. So wolves. represent the night owls, right? And so. wolves are my artists, my actors, my. creatives. If you know a creative, when. do they get their biggest idea? It's not. 2:00 in the afternoon, it's 2:00 in the. morning. Wolves are my highest risk. takers. I know that that probably you. fall into that category as well. Wolves. are the folks that show up at the party. at 11:00 at night but they stay till. 2:00 in the morning and they help you. clean up and they hate mornings more.

than anything. >> Mhm. >> So should [clears throat] we talk about. dolphins? >> What's the next one? Yeah. >> Dolphins. This is the category that you. fell into. So, let's talk about who are. the dolphins and and what does this. actually represent? So, dolphins are. usually highly intelligent. They're. usually people who are fast-talking, well-read. These are people who are a. lot like a lion in terms of they like to. get up. They crave longer bouts of. sleep, but unfortunately, their body. just doesn't have a long sleep drive. And so, they get really frustrated a lot. of times. Um also, I think they have.

just a teeny bit of anxiety behind them. So, a lot of them for example, the. details really matter to a dolphin, right? Versus other people where details. might not matter nearly as much. I think. a lot of my dolphins have got just a. little bit of obsessive-compulsive. disorder. So, they're kind of focused in. on the on the different things. Like, if. I ask a dolphin to do a project, generally speaking, they're never. finished with it until I say, "Can you. just give me the project back now?". Because they're always working on a. little detail here or working on a. detail there. Um but, my favorite.

they're the people that I actually wrote. the book for. They're the ones that I I. enjoy working with the most um because. they're actually the easiest to work. with because we can once I explain to. them how their hormones can be up and. down and sideways, it can it starts to. make a lot more sense for them. >> And for anyone trying to figure out. which one of these they are, where do. they go to do the test and how long does. it take? >> Yeah, you can go to my website. It's. called chronoquiz.com. Uh and uh it takes about 3-4 minutes. It's not very long at all. It's going to. ask you a bunch of questions about your. sleep, about timing, things like that.

>> Okay, I'll put that in the description. So, after you finish listening, you can. all go take it. And let me know your. thoughts in the comment section as well. So, once you figure out what your. chronotype is, come back to the episode. and and let me know below. >> Please. >> And does my sleep change with age, Michael? >> It does. Absolutely. >> So, do my do my chronotypes change with. age? >> They do, actually. So, believe it or. not, you've gone through all the. chronotypes already. When you're an. itty-bitty baby, you're a lion. You go. to bed really early. You wake up really. early, right? Then you're a toddler, right? And in in like grammar school,

you're a bear, you're going to bed. around 7:30, you're waking up around. 7:30. Then adolescence hits, right? What. do you want to do? Stay up until. midnight and sleep until 2:00, right? You become a wolf. Then at about 23, 24, your chronotype has tendency to set into. one of those three or four things, and. then you stay there for an extended. period of time like 25, 30 years, until. you hit my age. So, I'm going to be 58. soon, and right when you hit in the mid. 50s, what we see is melatonin production. can either slow down or get earlier. So,

as an example, if your parents are still. alive and you said, "Hey Mom, Dad, I. want to go for dinner." What time would. they want to go for dinner? >> Early. >> Right. 4:00 in the afternoon, 4:30 in. the afternoon. You're like, "What is. wrong with you, Mom? What's going on?". That's the her chronotype is going. backwards, and your sleep changes over. the course of time. To be clear, at once. you hit like age probably 50, 45 or 50, we start to see a slow down in. production of melatonin. We also see an. increase in what are called EEG. arousals, so things that break up your. sleep and make it so it's not so.

continuous. That can be problematic, as. well. So, there's a lot of things that. can happen as you age. >> So, do I start sleeping less as I get. older? >> You start sleeping a poorer quality. I'm. not convinced that it's always less. >> I mean, it's not going to make me. grumpy. >> Yes, it is. >> Really? >> Absolutely. Poor quality sleep is I. would argue is much worse than poor. quantity sleep. I I would rather I've. got somebody who got 5 hours of really. great sleep versus 7 hours of really. light crappy sleep, every time. >> Does that mean that as I get older I'm. going to be more grumpy?

>> It depends on the quality of your sleep. So, what I can teach you is how to not. get poor quality sleep as you age. Perfect example, a lot of folks who are. a little bit on the older side are used. to drinking coffee late in the day. Well, if you change that habit, then you. don't [clears throat] have as many sleep. problems. >> And I shouldn't I shouldn't be having. coffee late in the day at all. >> Probably, you want to stop by about 2:00. p.m. Right? So, if you stop around 2:00 p.m., the half-life of caffeine is between 6. and 8 hours. So, 8 hours later is. roughly 10:00, which is roughly when. people are kind of wanting to go to. sleep. So, I would say that that would. probably be the the time to do it.

>> I think about my siblings and us all. being woken up for school, and I think. about my performance in school, and of all my siblings, there's four of. us, >> Uh-huh. >> I was the one that always struggled with. being woken up in the morning, in part. because I'd gone to bed later, >> Yeah. >> but then I was also the one that. struggled with school the most. >> Yeah, that characteristic of a wolf, characteristic of this night person. If. I'm honest with you, dude, like most. kids should not be waking up at the time. they're waking up to go to school, right? I mean, so many kids are waking. up at real like, you know, 5:30, 6:00 in.

the morning. They have an hour-long bus. ride, then they get there, and if you're. an adolescent, I don't think anything. could be worse, >> No, yeah. >> right? So, we have to really start to. try to be a little bit more thoughtful. and look at like what are some of the. activities that kids are doing, how can. we get them to maybe take naps during. the day if they need them. Um athletic. performance can depend on sleep, academic performance can depend on. sleep. It's It's unbelievable all the. different things. >> Yes. >> Has there ever been any research done. >> There has. >> on different chronotypes academic. performance? >> There has been, actually. They haven't.

They labeled it directly as chronotypes, but they've looked at it based on age. range, and we know that, for example, here in the United States, there's a big. push for to change school start times. So, that way high schoolers don't. starting at 7:00 in the morning, because. high schools shouldn't be starting at. 7:00 in the morning. Preschoolers should. be starting at 7:00 in the morning, because their body naturally wakes up at. that time. So, we've actually seen There. was a great study um that was done at. the University of Minnesota that. discovered that um when they just had. people come in 1 hour later from their.

first period, they improved by one full. letter grade, meaning they went from. being C students to being B students, or. from B students to A students, merely by. changing the timing of their first. class. So, that should give you pretty. good insight as to sort of these big. area like and and all children are. vulnerable to this. Like this is not. like I'm not telling you anything that's. new. This is These are studies that have. been going on for quite a while and. there's actually a whole movement trying. to get school start times to to slow. down now.

>> Looking at some of the research here it. says research consistently shows that. morning types, which is the. >> lion. >> the lion earn higher grades not due to. higher IQ but because exams are. scheduled during their peak alertness. windows. >> You got it. >> That's crazy. >> Sometimes wolves turn out to be much. smarter but because they're they can't. perform at those early times nobody. knows. Remember wolves are my creatives. Like where do you think some of these. create great creative innovations and. ideas come from in the tech world, right? Like these are the wolves that. are out there that are up late at night.

coding and trying to figure out what's. going on. It's pretty cool when you think about. it. >> And I just this is thing called the. synchronous synchrony effect from a. study in 2020 where nearly 800 students. found a clear synchrony effect. Students. perform significantly better when their. class schedule matched their chronotype. >> Exactly. >> Those morning people dominated in. morning classes and and the owls um or. the wolves. often caught up and outperformed the. morning people when tested in the. afternoon or evening. >> Exactly.

It's pretty fascinating. Now think about. it like this. Could you imagine a school. system where if we identified children's. chronotypes during their particular age. range and then we change the testing so. that they got tested when they're at. their peak hours. >> Yeah, be. >> they'd actually do better. >> People don't know this but I never do. pod podcasts in the morning morning. >> I don't blame you. >> ever. >> You shouldn't. >> Yeah. >> It's it's not your time, yeah. Right? Like you have a very specific subscribe. time that I think works well for you. So. I think you should abide by that. >> Duration of sleep. There's lots of. conversation around how long you're.

supposed to sleep for. What what's the. truth here? >> 8 hours is a myth. Let's be fair. Like we came up with that. from like the 30s. There was a great. study at Stanford that came up with 8. hours and 13 minutes plus or minus and. that's kind of where we came up with. that as an idea. The truth of the matter. is somewhere between 7 and 9 hours. really is kind of the amount that people. should be looking for, but some people. don't have that luxury. Some people. don't have that much time that they can. put towards sleep and so they get a. little bit less sleep. But for the lower.

level limit, I don't like anybody. getting less than 6 hours. When somebody. gets less than 6 hours sleep, their. driving is off and so you can't operate. machinery. So if you're driving to work. or God forbid carpooling your kids to. school and you're only you only got you. know less than 6 hours of sleep on on. board, it's probably not going to go. well. >> We we do have to stop here and talk. about parents because listen, you're. either a parent now, you might be. someday. >> Absolutely. >> Maybe you won't be, but for those I've. just got huge amount of respect for. parents because. you know, I've gone I'm not a parent. yet. I hope I will become one. But when.

I see what my brother, who has three. kids under the age of what, seven now? >> Ooh. >> Um. >> How much sleep has [clears throat] he. lost? >> [laughter]. >> A lot. And and and his wife as well. But. um. you must get parents coming to you all. the time being like, what the hell do I. do? Like I've got the I've got to wake. up when the kids wake up and but I'm. it's destroying my my relationship, my. marriage, my sex, whatever it might be. >> Yeah, so parenting children and sleep. are difficult to coexist, but they're. not impossible. It really has to do with. discipline and kind of thinking through.

some ideas for yourself. When my So I. have a 23-year-old son and a 22-year-old. daughter. So I'm a little bit out of the. the realm of having to deal with them. every day. Um but I was like I said. before, I was in charge of mornings uh. at our house waking them up and it's a. lot, right? And so the very first thing. that I tried to explain to parents, especially if they have a child who has. an irregular sleep pattern and is really. causing chaos for the rest, like one. child who won't go to sleep and is. keeping every the whole house up. First. thing you want to do, educate the kid,

right? A lot of kids don't know what. they're doing is causing a lot of. problems. They they're just kids. They're just hanging out, having fun, you know, they're they've got energy. They want to be awake. So, that you want. to educate them and say, "Hey, now is a. particular time to wind down. This is. where your body recovers. This is how. you get to do sports the next day or. theater the next day or Whatever your. computers, whatever your thing is, you. can tie it to sleep and performance. pretty easily." And so, getting them to. understand that becomes very, very. critical. Number two is have some. guidelines, right? Have bedtimes. Have.

wake-up times and follow them as quick. as closely as you can. For parents, of. oftentimes what I try to tell them to do. is like, "Look, after your child goes to. bed, if you've got a child that has. problems for sleeping, take turns. Do what I call the on-call. method. So, as a doctor, sometimes, you. know, you get a call in the middle of. the night cuz you get you're covering. patients at the hospital for your buddy. or something like that. You're on call. So, when you've got two people who are. managing one child, one person handles. Monday night, Wednesday night, Friday. night. The other one handles Tuesday,

Thursday, Saturday. You flip a coin for. Sunday. So, if the kid wakes up at 2:00. in the morning, both parents aren't. awake. One parent has that. responsibility. The other one can keep. their eyes closed and go to sleep. Interesting study was done looking at. men and women in bed when a child cries. So, women take care of the child, whereas men lie there and fake sleeping. in order to be able to stay asleep. Right. That's problematic um in a lot of. different ways. >> this study that they were fake sleeping? >> asked the men afterwards, "What were you.

doing?" And they all said they woke up. and they were faking it. It's pretty. crazy when you think about it. But, this. is a big this is a big deal for parents, right? A lot of parents turn to me and. they're like, "This is killing our marriage. Like, we. haven't had sex in, you know, 3 years. because we've got a child who Maybe the. child has special needs or maybe the. child doesn't have special needs, but. has other things going on or maybe it's. just normal development and and, you. know, they're worried about it." And so, what I like to sit down with parents and. do is number one, let's figure out when. your kid needs to sleep and let's set. some guidelines and rules. But, number.

two, let's do the same for you. Mhm. Right? But, a lot of parents when. they're super stressed out, one of the. first things they do, grab a glass of. wine. Right? Wine's about the worst. thing you could possibly do for sleep, to be fair. Now, I'm going to teach. people how you can still have a glass or. two of alcohol and not completely. destroy your sleep, but I want to be. very clear about something. If you're. using alcohol as a stress relief tool at. night before bed, it's messing up your. sleep probably pretty bad. >> You might be asleep, but the quality of. your sleep is [ __ ]. >> It's awful. Right? And interestingly.

enough, during the one stage of sleep. that alcohol knocks out, which is stage. three and four sleep, what's the most. interesting is that during that. particular stage of sleep, there's. something called the glymphatic system. that comes in and scoops out these. proteins that have a tendency to. accumulate in your brain. And when. proteins accumulate in your brain, they. wrap around the nerves, and that's. called Alzheimer's disease. >> Mhm. >> [clears throat]. >> So, stage four sleep is imperative to. avoid Alzheimer's disease. And when you. drink alcohol, you destroy stage four. sleep. >> Mhm. >> So, it would be great if nobody drank.

alcohol, but I'm not so stupid as to. think that. Plus, I like bourbon. I like. whiskey. I enjoy a glass of champagne. every once in a while. So, how can you. successfully still drink alcohol and. still get a decent night's sleep? I'm. going to give you a a quick one. Right? Let's say you're having dinner at 6:30. Have your first glass of wine, then have. a glass of water, right? Then your. second glass of wine starts at let's say. almost 7:00, right? Then you have your. second glass of water, then you stop. everything by 7:30. You wait 3 hours, which would be 10:30, and then you can. go to bed.

>> Why the water? Why the wait? >> So, the water helps wash it through the. system. Also, fills your stomach up so. you don't have too much So, you you've. got more fluid in there. So, that way. you don't drink extra wine. Um and it. makes you have to pee, which flushes the. system out as well. The 3 hours. >> hydrates you? >> It does. >> Okay. >> Absolutely. Because remember, wine pulls. uh both magnesium and uh most water out. of your system because it makes you have. to go pee. >> Helps with the hangover? >> So, there's a couple of different things. that I would say. Number one, this. definitely helps with the hangover. because you've got water going in.

For a lot of my patients, what I tell. them is that the very last thing that. you could do is have a little bit of. coconut water. So, coconut water is. loaded with zinc, magnesium, and vitamin. B, and those are some of the things that. get pulled out of your system uh when. you're drinking. By the way, did you. know that there are happy hours specific. to your chronotype? >> Didn't know that name. >> Yeah, so it's kind of interesting. So, here's what's cool about it is your body. produces something called alcohol. dehydrogenase, which is how you. metabolize alcohol, but it does it at a. particular time, and the time is. different for each chronotype.

>> Mhm. >> So, your body is most efficient at. drinking between basically the hours of. 4:00 and 8:00. Happy hour, as a lot of. people know it. >> And how do you think about what time you. eat at night time? >> Such a great question. So, 3 hours. before bed, you want to stop fluids, including alcohol um and food. You want. to just stop it all 3 hours before bed. >> Why 3 hours? >> So, it takes your body about that level. of time to number one, digest, clear all. the food, and then have all the. mechanisms that are working towards.

digestion now be able to be refocused. onto the recovery process of sleep. However, I I will tell you that there's. this uh I've seen a couple people, and. there are people out there that are. claiming that if they stop eating at. 11:00 in the morning, that it helps. their sleep dramatically at night. And. it turns out it has to do with your. heart rate. So, one of the big metrics. that is very important that all of our. viewers and listeners want to know, is. you need a heart rate of 60 or below in. order to enter into a state of. unconsciousness. And when you've got.

food in your stomach, >> Yeah. >> your heart rate is up. >> That tracks. >> So, right? So, if the longer you can. wait, the lower your heart rate is, the. easier it gets into sleep. And so, when. we're talking about So, a great example, let's get back to parents for a second, right? You feed your kids at an earlier. time, and then what do you do? Oh, then. you go back and have dinner with your. spouse, right? Maybe that's not the best. idea because you're having dinner so. late. Maybe you should have dinner with. your kids, right? And and enjoy that. time with them and eat earlier because. that gives you more space later on to be.

able to relax and go to bed. >> I said that tracks because I remember. I've told this story once or twice. before. I remember when I was doing some. podcasts over here in LA and we had Seth. Rogen on. >> Sure. >> And the day before in the hotel before I. left here, I had a cookie from the mini. bar. Like I'm going to admit it. I had. the cookie. >> And they're so good. >> It was And then I went [laughter] to bed. pretty quickly. >> Oh god. >> Which was just terrible. And I was. looking at my Whoop the next day, hashtag ashunk. And it my heart rate. >> Straight up. >> 75 or 80.

>> Yeah. >> for the first two to three hours after I. got into bed. >> Isn't that crazy? >> And I woke up feeling like hell. >> Yep. >> Terrible day the next day. I was. terrible during the conversation. >> Yeah. >> And I looked at my Whoop and go, "Oh my. god, it was that cookie. It put my heart. rate high.". >> So, also on top of that is sugar. >> Yeah, I mean, [ __ ] me. Yeah. >> Right? So, sugar turns So, sugar. actually slows production of melatonin. Remember, melatonin is kind of the key. that starts the engine Yeah, the key. that starts the engine for sleep. >> So, is there anything else that I can do. to make sure my heart rate is low as I.

get into bed? >> Absolutely. Meditate. >> Okay. >> Breath work. >> All kinds of things to bring my heart. rate down. >> Yeah, absolutely. So, what a lot of people don't realize is. just because we're breathing doesn't. mean we're actually breathing in a way, shape, and form that can be helpful for. us for sleep. So, in my most recent. book, Sleep Drink Breathe, I talk a lot. about breath work and what is it and how. does it work for you. But, I'd love to. teach you my favorite form of breath. work and meditation. that I think you'll you'll get a lot out. of. So, >> And I do this before bed.

>> Exactly. >> Okay. >> And you can by the way, you can do it in. the middle of the night if you wake up. as well, right? So, let's talk about how. to get how to fall asleep and do some. relaxation exercises for that. And then. I'm going to give you some different. ones for in the middle of the night. So, let's talk the beginning of the night. So, number one, you need runway to land. the plane. Okay? So many people think. they're just waiting for their head to. be bobbing in front of the TV and then. they go brush their teeth and then they. get in bed and then all of a sudden. they're wide awake and they don't know. what's going on, right? So you need time. for your system to shut down. It's not.

an on-off switch. It's more like slowly. pulling your foot off the gas and slowly. putting your foot on the brake. There's. a process. It should take you about 12. to 15 minutes to actually fall asleep, okay? So number one, what I ask people. to do is take the last hour before bed. and chop it up into three 20-minute. segments, right? So let's say you're. going to bed at 11:00. Starting at 10:00. and by the way, set an alarm on your. phone to to tell you that it's 10:00. because it's really easy to slide by. your bedtime and then all of a sudden. it's like all bets are off. So set the. alarm, 20 minutes for [ __ ] you just got.

to do. So in our house it used to be. getting backpacks together for school. for our kids, finding sports equipment, maybe laying out my stuff for work the. next day or getting last emails sent, something like that. 20 minutes for. hygiene, right? Brush your teeth, wash. your face, maybe take a shower, something along those lines. And then 20. minutes for some form of meditation, relaxation, prayer. I don't care what. you do, but it has to be something. that's calming to get you there, okay? So my one of my favorite techniques to.

do is meditation. Now, I'm going to be. honest with you, I'm a terrible meditator. I have never. been able to do it. I've actually gotten. kicked out of meditation retreats cuz. I'm the guy that's like, "What's going. on? Like, am I doing it right?" You. know, I'm kind of that that person. And. so I was I was told about this tool. called a Muse headband. We have one. right here. So this is my personal Muse. I actually. brought it from home. And um you'll. notice on the inside there are sensors. here and there are sensors along the. earpiece here. And so what happens is is. you wear it on your head, right? And.

it's measuring your brainwaves. And so. when we're Yeah, check it out. And so. when we're when we're doing it and we're. measuring brainwaves, yep, exactly. And. that goes on the back part. Yeah, there. you go. So what's cool about this is. it's attached to an app, and then while. it's measuring your brain waves, you're. listening to a particular music. It. could be a guided meditation, it could. be any of those things. And while you're. doing this, the volume gets lower. And then you know. you're getting closer to a meditative. state. >> The volume comes down when? >> On the app when your brain wave starts.

to relax. >> Oh, okay. >> So, you're immediately getting feedback. We can try it if you want. Um but it's pretty interesting. And then. when you get to the alpha state, little. birds start chirping. >> The alpha state? >> Yeah, the alpha state is when your eyes. are closed and you're at the most. relaxed state of your brain waves. It's. called the alpha state. And that's. really what people are trying to get to. for meditation. >> And are you affiliated with this company. in any way? >> I'm not. >> And how much does it cost? >> I think it's around $275. I think it's the headband. >> Okay, interesting. >> It's pretty fascinating. Um I I've been.

pretty impressed with them. >> So, that's meditation. >> Mhm. >> You spoke about breathwork as well. before? >> Yeah, let's talk about it. So, one of. the other things that I do is I do. something Well, this isn't breathwork. This is called progressive muscle. relaxation. So, this is where you tense. and relax muscles starting from your. feet and going all the way up your body. And as you tense and relax the muscles, you feel that relaxation from releasing. that tension, and it helps you fall. asleep. Um actually, you know what I can. do is I can send you a an audio file. that has me walking through progressive. muscle relaxation that we can make.

available for everybody if you want me. for free. It's no big deal. >> Amazing. I'll put that in the. description below as well. >> Yeah, yeah, people will really dig it. I. think they'll really enjoy it. So, that's another thing that we do. But now. let's talk about the middle of the. night, right? So, do By the way, do you. have this as an issue? Have this Has. this happened to you before? >> It happens sometimes, and it's typically. when like my sleep is somewhat. disordered or disruptive, or when. there's really something on my mind. >> Yes. So, that that precipitory anxiety, like before flight. Like if I have a. 8:00 in the morning flight, like I sleep.

like [ __ ] the night before cuz I'm. constantly worried about that, right? But a lot of times what people do. normally is they just wake up in the. middle of the night and they can't. return to sleep and they're really not. sure why. So, number one, there's. biology involved. So, your core body. temperature rises, rises, rises and when. it hits a peak, it drops. That drop is. then a signal to your brain to release. melatonin, right? Again, the key that. starts the engine for sleep. However, your core body temperature continues to. drop, drop, drop. By the way, this is. the reason why we tell people you want. to sleep in the cool, not the warm. environment. Because again, your core.

body temperature is dropping. If it's. too hot, your core body temperature. can't go down and you can't get to. sleep. Which tracks with evolution. >> Exactly. >> So, here's where it gets interesting is. it keeps going, going, going and then at. some point in time, your body has to. heat up. And if it doesn't heat up, you. go hypothermic. Guess what time that is? Between 1:00 and 3:00 in the morning. >> Oh, your body starts heating up at 1:00. 1:00 and 3:00? >> Every single person's body on Earth does. this. Everybody on Earth wakes up. between 1:00 and 3:00 in the morning. However, most people burp, roll over,

get comfortable, and fall back asleep in. 30 seconds. However, there's a slight. group of people who end up being my. patients who don't have that and there. herein lies the problem. So, here are. the steps you want to take in the middle. of the night to be able to solve this. issue. So, number one, don't go pee. I. know, I know, I know. People like, "What? What are you talking about, Michael?" So, here's what ends up. happening is when people wake up in the. middle of the night, they say to. themselves, "Well, I'm up, I might as. well go pee, right?" Here's the problem. Remember, I told you the big metric was.

in order to enter into a state of. unconsciousness, you need a heart rate. of 60 or below, right? What do you think. happens to your heart rate when you go. from a lying position to a seated. position to a standing position and walk. across the room? Your heart rate goes straight up. So, what we want to do is keep your heart. rate down. So, if you don't really have. to go to the bathroom, don't go to the. bathroom. 75% of people sleep on their. sides and they kind of squanch up, which. means they're putting pressure on their. bladder. So, my guess is is that most of. those people, if all you did was when. you woke up is lie and get on your back. for about 25 seconds and see if you.

still need to pee. If you don't need to. pee, stay in bed and keep your heart. rate down. If you need to pee, please go. pee, right? If you're going to go to the. bathroom, have a strategically placed. nightlight along the way so you don't. have to flip on the light in the water. closet cuz if you do that, you just told. your brain it's morning and it stops. producing melatonin. But let's say you. don't have to pee. The second thing, don't look at your. phone. Now, this turns out to be very difficult. for 99% of the people out there cuz the. first thing they do is they grab their. phone and they head to the bathroom,

right? And they're either checking. emails, looking at Facebook or Twitter. or whatever social media they're on. >> Or just trying to figure out what time. it is. >> Or. and that's where the problem is. Is as. soon as you see the time, you instantly. do the mental math and now you're pissed. off, right? It's 3:30 in the morning, I. got to get up at 6:00. Sleep. Sleep. Sleep. And you try to force your brain. to sleep. Dude, in the history of time, nobody has been able to force their. brain to sleep, okay? Cuz your heart. rate's going in the wrong way, right? It. needs to be coming down. So, if you can,

don't look at the clock. so you haven't. peed, you haven't looked at the clock, but you're still awake and nothing's. going on. Here's where the breathing. technique comes in. It's called 4-7-8. breathing. I did not develop this. technique. It was developed by Dr. Andrew Weil, Harvard-trained natural. doctor, super smart dude. Um and uh he. did it for the military to teach them. how to lower their heart rate during. stressful situations. We use it because. it helps lower our heart rate past 60. and it's super simple. I'm going to get. you to try it. So, go ahead and sit up. straight, okay? And so, all you're going.

to do is breathe in for a count of four, you're going to hold for a count of. seven, and you're going to breathe out. for a count of eight. And I'm going to. walk you through it. I want you to have. your eyes closed and what I also want. you to do, you're going to go in through. the nose, out through the mouth. And. then what I also want you to do is. picture the number in your head. So, when I say breathe in, two, three, four, you should picture the two, the three, the four in your mind's eye, okay? >> With my eyes closed? >> With your eyes closed. You ready? >> Yep. >> Breathe in 2 3 4 hold 2 3 4 5 6 7 push 2.

3 4 5 6 7 8. Good. You don't want to get through. about 20 cycles of that. It's incredibly. relaxing. I actually did it before I. came out here to do the pod because it. helps lower my heart rate and gets me. centered. >> Mhm. >> It's pretty remarkable. Now, there's. some problems with the technique. Number. one, sometimes it's hard to hold for.

seven and sometimes it's really hard to. push for eight. So, I tell people you. can do this 4 5 6. 4 6 7 or 4 7 8. So, just work your way. up to it, right? If if it's too hard to. hold your breath for 7 seconds or it's. too too hard to push your breath for. eight, you can do a little bit less just. while you're getting used to it. And. then the other big thing is it's hard to. figure out where the 20 cycles is cuz. you need to get to 20 cycles of this. So, what I have people do is take their. hands and make light fists while they're. doing this. And when they do one cycle, they put out a finger. Another cycle,

put out a finger. And before you know. it, you got 10 and when you bring it. back, you've done 20 cycles. >> It's funny, I just did two and I started. yawning. >> I know, I just saw that. [laughter] I'm. telling you, dude, this thing works, right? And so, I have people do this. technique. Here's the best part is it. avoids monkey mind. Right? So, what is monkey mind? Monkey. mind is I'm thinking about stuff that I. have no business thinking about in the. middle of the night for absolutely no. reason. Like what's on the grocery list. or what did I say to my spouse or did. that podcast go okay or any of the. things that might be floating through.

your head. You cannot count and worry at. the same time. >> And why does it work? What's going on in. my physiology? >> Uh-huh. You're distracting the brain. from the thing that's stressing you out. and it's lowering your heart rate and. then the natural sleep process comes in. after it. So, all these are are. distraction techniques, to be clear. Now, there's a there's several of them. out there. One of the other ones I use. for some of my patients is I tell them, "Hey, count backwards from 300 by. threes.". It's mathematically so complicated, you.

can't think of anything else, and it's. so damn boring, you're out like a light. >> On that point of distractions, a lot of. people go to bed listening to podcasts. or movies. Jack was just saying that he. needs to listen to something before he. sleeps. I'm the same. I listen to like. serial killer stuff. Which is you know. >> That's interesting. >> Don't [laughter]. Don't judge me. >> Wait till we get to the dreams part of. the podcast. I can't wait to hear what. you dream about. >> I I don't I think I always try and. figure out why it is. And I My sister's. the same. My sister Amanda, and she. she. listens to serial killer stuff to fall.

asleep. And I think it's because This is. just a hypothesis. My mom would always. ask me to put on Forensic Files, which. is this like serial. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> murder documentary thing when we were. younger. >> Mhm. >> cuz she couldn't use the remote. So, my. mom would say, "Can you pass me the. remote?" She'd put on Forensic Files, and I'd like put on the number for her. Right. And so, that was always playing. in our house at night time. And we all. had TVs in our bedroom that just. mirrored what was ever what was playing. downstairs. >> Of course. >> So, when I got into bed. I'd watch [laughter] Forensic Files and. fall asleep. >> This explains a lot about you. >> I know, right? You say that to people,

they think you're. You're a Yeah. >> So, let me tell you what it's like in my. house. And actually, you and I have a. commonality. So, in my house we have a big screen TV. It's on all night long. >> What? In which room? >> In my bedroom. >> Okay. >> Okay. When I met my wife, she said to. me, "Michael, if you ever happen to. spend the night, I want to let you know. that I sleep with the television on." I. said, "Don't worry about that, Lauren. I'm going to be a sleep doctor. I'm. going to fix that." We we met when I was. uh 30. So, uh. known her for quite a while. And You. ever tried to change something in your.

bed partner? >> good luck. >> Yeah, good [snorts] luck. So, I took the. TV out. She said, "If you ever want to. come back in here again, I suggest you. put the I put the TV back in." And then. I studied her to learn what was going. on. And it turns out that she's. listening to it out of what I call the. corner of her ear. Her eyes aren't even. open. And half the time it's a episode. of Seinfeld or something like that. My. wife actually likes murder mysteries and. so it's usually Forensic Files or. something along those lines that's going. on. But for her, it's a perfect. distraction technique. Now, there's a.

second thing that's important in our. bedroom that happens is we have two. dogs. They sleep in the bed with us. I'm. the freaking sleep doctor, dude. Like. it's insane. But the point here is sleep. is flexible. Okay? Just because it works. for you doesn't mean it works for your. bed partner and and vice versa is also. true, right? Like just because some. people can't sleep with the TV on. doesn't mean that it's going to mess up. your sleep forever to have the. television on cuz it's not. And by the. way, 99% of TVs have timers built into. them. Like if you don't know what it is,

ask your kid. I had to ask my son. He. showed me how to use it and we turned it. off. It wasn't a problem, right? So, creating a sleep environment that is. conducive to sleep for you and your bed. partner can have a lot of variation to. it. And I don't think people There's no. hard and fast rule that says, "Hey, nobody should ever sleep with the TV. on." I mean, there are people out there. who say that, but quite frankly, everybody sleeps with the TV on. >> Well, a lot of people do. I wouldn't put the TV on. in our bedroom. I mean, we've done it. once or twice whatever cuz we're.

watching something and we slip off to. sleep and we. I wake up and I realize it's on and I. turn it off. But I I also really think it's an. important point to say that people will. listen to podcasts like this. They'll. listen to the like biohackers of the. world. >> Yes. >> And then they'll get so militant about. how they fall asleep that it will cause. friction because one partner is. different. >> Don't do that. >> And I had this problem in my. relationship which [laughter] was. my girlfriend sleeps in silence and is. has like just a such a glorious routine. to everything she does. >> Right. >> And I am. >> completely the opposite. >> And off the opposite. Like I need. [laughter] to like I want to listen to a. murder. I can be on my phone. It's like.

when I look at my Whoop scores, works for me. >> Yeah. >> It's like I am getting I have I get. great sleep even if I'm listening to a. serial killer documentary. So. >> But not if you ate a cookie before bed. >> No, not if you eat a cookie. [laughter]. That's That's gone. But I still what I. do is I put one AirPod in in my right. ear. So, it's whichever ear is not going. to be on the pillow. And it means I can listen to her if she. says something. >> Right. >> But when it's silence, all I hear is the. thing that I'm listening to. >> So, I've got a trick for you. >> And I wake up in the morning and dig the. AirPod out of the bed where it ended up.

>> right. So, now I'm going to help you. with the digging of the AirPod. So, first of all, they now make these things. called pillow speakers. >> Oh, interesting. >> Right. So, it's a it's a it's a. Bluetooth speaker that will attach to. your phone that you can just slide and. it's just under your pillow. So, only. you can hear it. So, that's number one. You might want to consider that and. they're pretty inexpensive. Number two, they now make specifically earbuds. designed to be slept in. >> Oh, nice. >> So, there's a a new company out called. Next Sense um and they have developed an. earbud that actually measures your brain.

waves while you are sleeping. and when you move into a lighter stage. of sleep, it sends in a frequency signal. to help you go back to sleep or to stay. in that depth of sleep. Brand new. company, Next Sense. I have nothing to. do with them. I mean, it's a friend of. mine who owns the company, but I'm not. on their board. >> like something to do with them. >> We'll figure that out. >> So, does it allow you to play your music. as well or your or your podcast or. whatever? >> can listen to Diary of a CEO every. single night while I fall asleep and it.

will make sure that I don't wake up from. any dreams. >> And you can still like and subscribe and. stuff. >> Even through the earbuds, of course. I. think everybody should like and. subscribe. >> feature. >> [laughter]. >> AI agent that helps you subscribe. Okay, so that's That's you wake up in the. middle of the night, you don't pee, you. don't check your phone, you're doing. these breathing exercises, you don't. give yourself a hard time. >> And then what happens? It doesn't work. What do you do? >> Yeah. >> Right? So, there's the new research on. something called non-sleep deep rest. We. call it yoga nidra. Okay? It's been. around for thousands of years. When you. lie relaxed in like a corpse pose like.

this, you're actually doing something. that's valuable for your sleep. Now, I. want to to clear, it's not the same as. sleep, but if you lie there for an hour, it's like 20 minutes worth of sleep. So, everybody should know that even lying. relaxed and calm is very, very helpful, right? But, if you start to get anxious. and your heart rate starts to tick up, you need to get yourself out of bed. because that's when cuz all you're doing. then is thinking, "Hey, this bed is this. place where I get anxious and pissed. off. This is not a place to sleep." So, as long as you stay nice and quiet, the.

non-sleep deep breath, absolutely the. thing to do. The other big thing that I. do, and by the way, this happens to me. on occasion, too. Like, I'm not immune. to it just cuz I'm a sleep doctor. You. have to stay positive. And what I What. do I mean by that is everybody when they. wake up in the middle of the night, your. brain is set to negativity. There's no. reason you should be up at 3:00 in the. morning that something good is going on, right? Nobody's coming in wishing you. happy birthday at 3:00 in the morning. Something terrible has happened, and. your brain has gotten accustomed to. that. So, when it wakes up, it. immediately goes to the negative, and.

you start thinking about bad things. You. can't stop your first thought, but you. can stop your second thought, right? And. so, when you wake up and you think. negative, what I want you to replace that with is. "Okay, Michael, for some reason, your. body has decided to wake up at 3:00 in. the morning. It's not the game that I. wanted to be playing tonight. However, I. think I'm going to be okay. I'm just. going to lie here and relax and let the. natural sleep process take over. If I. feel my heart rate increasing, I'm going. to go to another room in the house where. I've already got a book and a light set.

up so I can do a little bit of light. reading and then come back to sleep.". And I just tell myself that. I give. myself permission. to just chill. Just relax. And then, you know what. happens? The natural sleep process comes. over. As soon as your heart rate starts. to go down, your body wants to get back. to sleep. And so, it really has a lot to. do with heart rate. >> I love having these conversations on The. Diary of a CEO because I have a huge. amount of sympathy and concern for. people that don't get sufficient sleep.

And I know there's a lot of people that. don't. And I actually think it's to some. degree it's somewhat increasing because. of the way we live our lives. I was. looking at some of the stats around the. increase. And there's a study done in. 2025. and early 2026 that revealed we're in a. global sleep crisis. >> we are. >> [laughter]. >> Both the CDC and Stanford Medicine. report said that one in three adults and. nearly 80% of teenagers are now. chronically sleep deprived. >> Correct. >> survey by the American Academy of Sleep. Medicine found that 93% of Gen Z admit.

to regularly losing sleep due to social. media usage. And 71% of employed. respondents globally have said. that they sometimes call in sick at. least once or twice just to poor sleep. >> to sleep. Yeah. When I was down in. Australia doing some work down there, a. lot of Australians they take holiday and. they just sleep. >> Yeah. >> Just to catch up. Like it's it's pretty. remarkable. We're in a very. sleep-deprived society. And I think. there's a couple of different reasons. why that is. Number one, have you seen what's going on outside in.

the world today? It's pretty crazy out. there. >> Well, >> I can understand why people are getting. a little anxious. >> I think one could argue it's been. crazier through history, but we never. knew about it. >> Right. Well, I mean, the media getting. it to getting us this information so. quickly, I think is definitely what it I. would agree with you. It was much. crazier during like World War II, you. know, and stuff like that. But now we're. getting information so quickly and. people are getting so ratcheted up about. it. I think that has something to do. with it. But if I I think the bigger. culprit is people being overweight. You. know, when you look here in the United. States and you look at the obesity.

epidemic and you look at people being. overweight, close to like 70-something. percent of people in America are. overweight. When you're overweight, that. puts you in line for potentially having. something called sleep apnea. Now, I. want to be clear, not everybody with. sleep apnea is overweight, but a large. percentage of the people with sleep. apnea are bigger people. And so when you. look at a society that's getting bigger. and all of the unhealthy food that we've. got going on, like all this highly. processed food, things of that nature, That isn't helping anybody. It's adding. the pounds and specifically like for.

men, we gain weight through our necks. Like I mean I don't know if you've ever. noticed it, but like if you ever were. heavy and you lose weight, the first. thing somebody says is, "Oh, it looks. like you lost weight cuz I can tell from. your face." Right? And they're like, "Oh, your neck looks, you know, different now." And so we see a lot of. what's going on in the world from a. weight perspective and a food. perspective could be driving some of the. sleep problems. Then there's the anxiety. perspective that I spoke of earlier that. I think comes in and again I I agree. with you. I don't think we have more. crazy stuff going on. I think we know. about more crazy stuff that's going.

>> But also work is now largely digital. And I imagine for my great-grandfather, he would go to, I don't know, the. factory or wherever he worked. His work. would finish at 6:00. >> Yes. >> Your work doesn't finish at 6:00 now. It. finishes when you're awake. >> Yeah, absolutely. It finishes when you. go to sleep. >> Yeah, exactly. >> Right? Yeah, and and that becomes. problematic, right? Because a lot of. times, also by the way, you need to have. dividers in your home. Like let's say. you live in a studio apartment and your. bed is your couch, is your kitchen, right? You have no designated spot for. sleep. Your body needs to know, hey,

this is the spot where I can chill out. and finally get some rest. And I think a. lot of times our environments just. aren't that way. >> So many of us are pursuing passive forms. of income and to build side businesses. in order to help us cover our bills. And. that opportunity is here with our. sponsor Stan, a business that I co-own. It is the platform that can help you. take full advantage of your own. financial situation. Stan enables you to. work for yourself. It makes selling. digital products, courses, memberships,

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>> Which sleep disorder should we start. with? Sleep apnea and insomnia. Sleep. apnea for folks out there who may not. know what it is is when you are snoring. at night. Almost everybody who has sleep. apnea snores. Not everybody, but almost. everybody. And when you're sucking air. in, you pull your tongue to the back of. your throat and you cut off your air. And you literally stop breathing, right? For a few seconds. Then all of a sudden. you. And you make all this kind of grunt and. groaning noises and then you wake up. This can happen hundreds of times a. night. And it can be very problematic.

because of course it wakes you up every. single time that you have one of these. events, right? And so, as an example, we. measure the events per hour. So, as an. example, somebody with sleep apnea could. have between 5 and 15 times per hour. that they stop breathing and that's. mild. >> So, how are they going to get into the. deep sleep that clears out their. brain? >> That's the problem, right? And so, apnea. prevents them from getting into a lot of. that deep sleep, and so their brain. doesn't clear out, and then they got. their they're kind of screwed. So, at.

the end of the day, the the goal here is. to get as many people to number one, identify if they have a sleep disorder, and then be able to try to figure out. what to do about it. And the percentage. of people in the US that have. undiagnosed sleep apnea is pretty big. It's like somewhere between I think like. 18 to 20%. >> This is crazy. I was just looking at the. stats. It says, "According to 2026 data, approximately. 936. million people to 1 billion adults. worldwide have obstructive sleep apnea, which is what one in seven?".

>> Yeah, that's about right. Yeah. >> Making it as common as diabetes. One in. seven people listening have sleep apnea. >> Yes. >> Wow. >> As popular as diabetes. Let that sink in. for like half a second. Everybody knows. what diabetes is. Almost nobody knows. what sleep disorders are, specifically. sleep apnea. >> And it says 80 to 90% of those people. remain undiagnosed. >> Undiagnosed. That is correct. >> So, there's people listening right. There's actually a huge percentage of. people listening right now. >> Yeah. >> that have sleep apnea and have no idea. that they have it. >> Exactly right. >> they know?

>> Do the sleep test. >> This thing here? >> Yeah. >> And what would this show? >> So, this would show This actually. collects what is your oxygen levels that. throughout the night, what is your heart. rate throughout the night, how many. times do you actually stop breathing, and also the depth of your sleep, which. stages of sleep you get when you fall. asleep, things like that. >> And what would this So, you know, cuz. people are going to be saying that well, like how do I know if I need to do the. test? >> So, great question. So, you want to. think about the symptoms that you might. have. So, do you snore? Do you wake up. gasping for air? Has anybody told you. that your snoring stops for brief.

periods of time, or that you they've. heard you gasping for air? Do you wake. up with a headache in the morning? Do. you find your moods are up and down? All. of those are signs and symptoms of sleep. apnea. >> And this test, are you affiliated with. this company at all? >> I'm not. But um do have that test on my. website. We sell it to people so that. way we can test them. >> And how much does it cost? >> $189. >> Okay, so it's not. >> It's not exorbitantly expensive and it's. also is covered by insurance. >> And it connects to an app? >> Uh-huh. Absolutely. So you'd put it through your.

sleeve. >> So I I'd put that there and then like. this. [clears throat]. >> Yeah, exactly. And that's it. You go to. bed. Wake up, then the information ports over. to your phone. And then tells us exactly what's going. on. Now here's where it gets even. better. I know, right? >> imagine me getting in bed with my film. saying being like, "Come on, babe, let's. >> We're recording all kinds of good stuff. Who knows what she might like?". >> Is this going to help my sex life? >> It's absolutely it will because getting. into bed and knowing how well you sleep. and knowing if you have sleep apnea or. not will definitely affect your sex. life. Also, by the way, I've saved more.

marriages as a sleep doctor than I ever. would have as a marital therapist. dealing with snoring in the middle of. the night and things like that. So you'd. be you'd be surprised. But what's nice. about this is it's one night. You don't. have to do it multiple nights. It's. super easy. And again, I believe it or. not that's disposable. You can actually. throw that whole thing away after it's. all said and done. >> And on that point, if we just go a. little bit further into sleep apnea, should should we be sleeping in bed with. our partners? And I know that's an. interesting thing to. >> Great question. Great question. The. strength of your relationship has. nothing to do with where you sleep,

okay? So lots of people are like, "I got. to sleep with my partner, otherwise my. relationship's going to go to [ __ ] and. everything's going to go terrible and. we're never going to have sex and we're. well. not true, okay? So a lot of times for. people that I have So for example, I've. got people who um have sleep apnea and. they use a. machine to help them sleep called a CPAP. machine, right? And um that noise for. some people can be disruptive and so. they sleep, let's say, in a different. room, right? So is that is that. detrimental to your marriage? No, it's.

not cuz here's what you do is you. vacation on the weekends in your. bedroom, right? I can't count the number. of people who sleep separately during. the week and then together on the. weekends. And it turns out that they get. much better sleep during the week. And. then, guess what? Intimacy shows up much. faster on the weekends because they're. not so tired. Used to be, you know, not. tonight I have a headache, it was really. not tonight I'm exhausted. When you. allow your partner to get good sleep. during the week, there's a reasonably. good shot that you're going to be able.

to be intimate over the weekend if they. got good sleep. So, wearing that to bed. might not be the sexiest thing in the. universe, but it's better than having. sleep apnea and eventually ending up. dead. >> Are the symptoms of sleep apnea. different for men and women? >> They are. Great question. So, it turns. out that men and women are quite. different. But we've historically been. scoring them the same. So, women don't. have a tendency to have as much snoring. as men do. Um women have a tendency to. have more arousals where they wake up.

constantly. Women have a tendency to. report headaches in the morning, more so. than men do. So, it's actually different. types of symptoms for women versus men. when it comes to sleep apnea. To the. point where we're now considering using. different testing devices. So, this. testing device um would not necessarily. measure EEG. And in women, EEG might be. important. That's what we're learning. So, as an example, our company is. finding a device specifically to send to. women so that way we can more accurately. measure sleep apnea in women. Now,

there's a lot of questions about. treatment for sleep apnea. And the. biggest reason why nobody gets sleep. tested is because they're afraid that. they're going to end up sleeping with a. CPAP machine on their face at night. And. so, let me describe to your audience. what that is. Also, full disclosure, I. have sleep apnea. I don't look like somebody who has sleep. apnea. I stop breathing in my sleep, I. think it's 26 times an hour. I know, right? Kind of crazy. And I wear. a CPAP machine and it helps me sleep. every single night. Let me explain what. it is. So, when your throat closes here,

machine is a little air compressor with. a tube and a mask that sits on your. nose, pushes a just thin stream of just. air, and when it hits that blockage, it. ever so slightly opens it up, shoots air. straight down to your lungs. Now, you. might be saying to yourself, "That. sounds barbaric. That is insane. That's. a hair dryer blowing up my nose all. night long.". Here's what I can tell you, is when you. have a severe case of sleep apnea, this can be a lifesaver. This can be one of the biggest, most.

important things that you possibly do. Now, a lot of people say, "Oh, I don't. think I could sleep with a mask on my. face." Well, that's not the only. treatment. There are other treatments. called oral appliances. This is like a. mouth guard, like you see the. footballers wear, but it's an upper and. a lower, and the lower slowly brings. your jaw forward, which opens up your. posterior airway space. The same way. that air pushes things aside, the oral. appliance structurally moves your jaw. slightly forward, thereby opening up. your airway. So, that works well, and. then there's no mask on your face. There's a third device that you can wear.

on your tongue that vibrates, that. shrinks your tongue by a couple of. millimeters, which opens up this. posterior airway space and allows you to. breathe better. >> Have you tried all of them? >> I have, as a matter of fact. >> And why did you choose the apnea. machine? >> So, for me, the apnea machine worked the. best and made the most sense for me. right now. But, I'll be honest with you, I will probably get the mouth guard for. when I travel. There's a lot that can be. done out there. And by the way, there's. also surgeries. And surgeries are a. little bit more permanent fix, um but in.

many cases, those can be quite. effective. Also, by the way, they're. working on a pill. >> Mhm. >> for sleep apnea now. And that's just apnea. We haven't talked. about insomnia yet. >> I was just reading about the FDA. approving a drug. >> Yeah, it's it's quite remarkable, and. there's actually two I think there's. actually three different companies that. are working on different drugs right now. for sleep apnea. And I mean, to be. clear, when that happens, I think it's. pretty much game over for sleep apnea, right? I I once we can get it in a pill. form, which means compliance increases. dramatically, we can help a lot of.

people with sleep apnea, which I think. would be pretty amazing. >> And women are heavily under-diagnosed, right? Because we. >> Heavily. >> We think of it as I mean, I've heard it. being referred to as a sort of an old. man's disease. >> Yeah, an old absolutely. And here's the. thing, many women have a tendency to. report insomnia types of symptoms over. sleep apnea types of symptoms, when in. fact, they actually have under. under-diagnosed sleep apnea, which we. can catch. >> We talked a little bit earlier, but from. many of the conversations I've had on. the show about Alzheimer's, >> Yes. >> your chance of.

getting Alzheimer's, I imagine, is going. to increase, right? Because. >> Absolutely. >> you have sleep apnea. >> Yeah, well, because when you have sleep. apnea, it keeps you out of the deeper. stages of sleep. The deeper stages of. sleep is where that glymphatic system. comes in and scoops out those proteins, and that's really probably one of those. big causes for it. So, that's one of the. things that we always want people to. understand. But, there's also something. else that I think is important to maybe. talk about, which is on the other side, not sleep apnea side, but on the. insomnia side, which is there's a lot of. people who go and they go to the drug. store and they buy an over-the-counter. sleep aid, right? Now, I'm not talking.

about supplementation yet. We can get. into supplements in a minute, if you. want to, but I'm talking about things. like the PM medications, right? You. know, they So, here in America, we have. them where there's like there's like an. analgesic plus a PM. So, there's Tylenol. PM, Advil PM, and what it is is it's. it's a pain reliever, but they add. something called diphenhydramine, and it. makes you feel sleepy, and it makes you. fall asleep. Diphenhydramine is actually. an antihistamine, right? So, it's used. for congestion and things like that, but. there's now data to suggest that daily.

use of the PM part of this, not the pain. relieving part, but the PM part, can. lead almost directly to Alzheimer's. >> Oh, wow. >> Right. So, if people can just go to bed. and follow a couple simple rules and go. to bed naturally, you'd be shocked at. how much better your world is going to. be. >> The Queensland Brain Institute, um, at. the University of Queensland, found that. people with untreated apnea have a 45%. higher risk of developing Alzheimer's. disease.

>> Like I said, this is crazy. So, >> It's really important. >> here's the thing is we've got all these. people who are watching your show right. now. They need to start thinking in. their head like. maybe I have sleep apnea, maybe I don't, but maybe I should take a look at what. are some of the symptoms and see if. that's something that could be going on. for me. Because again, testing is. available. And to be clear, it's not. like I'm the only guy out there who's. testing people. I mean, there are sleep. doctors all over the world that are. testing people. My encouragement to. people is, "Hey, figure it out. If If.

you can't figure it out, you know, shoot. us an email, we'll find a sleep center. for you to go to. But if you think. there's something going on, it's. definitely worth checking out." Because. by the way, you can stay with. undiagnosed sleep apnea for your entire. life. And it all it does is basically. break down everything that's going on. inside. That's not what you want. Like, remember, sleep is recovery. Right? This. is how your body still functions. Like, if you want to lead a nice, prosperous. life, you want to sleep. >> Insomnia has become a bit of a word that. people throw around, for sure.

>> Right. They They kind of just. self-diagnose themselves. We kind of. think of it as this one specific thing. I think people say I have insomnia when. they just don't sleep well. >> Right. >> What is insomnia and and what's the big. myth around it? >> Yeah, so number one, there's a couple of. different flavors of insomnia. There's. the I can't fall asleep, there's the I. can't stay asleep, which we talked about. quite a bit, there's the I wake up too. early, and then there's just the I wake. up from unrefreshing sleep. So, we. really think that there are four sort of. types of insomnia, right? And, um, when. people I would say some of the biggest.

myths that a lot of people have. surrounding insomnia is or like the. biggest problem that they do is when. somebody has a really crappy night, then. what they try to do is the next evening. go to bed early. and try to catch up on some of that. sleep that they missed. So, to be clear, this is a terrible idea because your. circadian rhythm isn't ready to go to. bed early. So, you lie in bed and you're. exhausted, but you can't fall asleep. You're what I call wired and tired, right? And so, what we want people to do.

is if you do have a bout of insomnia. where you have difficulty falling asleep. or difficulty staying asleep, number. one, don't over caffeinate during the. daytime. So many people are like, "Oh, I'm dragging. I got to get a coffee.". You know, and and they and they. caffeinate caffeinate caffeinate and. then they caffeinate so late into the. day that they have shitty sleep that. night and now we're in the washing. machine cycle going over and over and. over. It sounds like you might be. relating to this a little bit maybe. yourself. And then. so we want to avoid that. The other. thing we want to avoid is. overstimulation at night, right? So, a.

lot of times people get that nervous. energy and so they're just doing doing. doing. Again, you need runway to land. the plane, so give yourself some kind of. that space. Um and then just make sure. that you've got some level of. regularity. I would argue for my. insomnia patients, but quite honestly, for anybody who's watching this, the. number one sleep tip that I can give. people is to wake up at the same time 7. days a week. Not go to bed. I don't actually care. when you go to bed that much. I know. there's a lot of sleep specialists out. there who are like, "You got to go to.

bed at the same time and wake up at the. same time." I'm not of that ilk. I don't. really care that much about the going to. bed time. I really only care about the. wake up time. Let me explain why. When. you wake up in the morning, sunlight. hits your eye and you have a special. cell in your eye called a melanopsin. cell, which sends a signal to your brain. to turn off the melatonin faucet in your. head. But it sets a timer for exactly 14. hours later. It's called the melatonin. phase response curve. So, if you're. waking up at 6:00, melatonin turns off. until about 8:00 p.m. then it takes. about a couple hours for it to get up. and in. So, then you start to get sleepy.

around 9:30 and you go to bed. But if you did that and now it's. Saturday and you sleep in until 8:00, melatonin doesn't kick off until 10:00. Saturday night. So, what I'm saying is. the time that you wake up directly. determines when your internal melatonin. kicks into gear. So, if everybody woke. up at the exact same time every single. day 7 days a week, automatically you would get tired at the. right time and you would start going to. sleep. >> And is there two different types of.

insomnia? Because sometimes I hear. primary secondary insomnia. I think I. heard that on your YouTube channel. >> So, when you look at primary insomnia. versus secondary insomnia, the way we. categorize that, secondary insomnia is. usually due to something else that's. going on in your life. So, >> Psychology. >> So, maybe caffeine abuse? >> Oh, okay. >> Right? Um maybe something along those. lines. Whereas primary insomnia is. there's nothing else. You The only thing. you've got going on is sleep disorder. Another example of of something where. insomnia might be secondary would be. pain. >> Okay. [snorts]. >> if you have a pain syndrome, if you have. fibromyalgia or low back pain, that.

could prevent you from sleeping. That. would be secondary insomnia, secondary. to pain. >> And I hear that the most common. treatment for insomnia is CBT therapy. >> So, yes and no. >> Okay. >> So, I would say that the most common. therapy for insomnia is alcohol. More people drink themselves to sleep. >> Right. >> than any other single thing out there. Um and then you start to get into the. pharmacy of it all and there's a lot of. pharmaceutical drugs out there that. people utilize for for sleep. And I want. to make a point if I can is there's.

nothing wrong with needing a pill to. sleep. Okay? I want to be very clear. about this. There are people out there. who need pills, right? All kinds of. different ones. Thank you. There's a. whole host of reasons why you and your. doctor may have come to the conclusion. that a sleeping tablet is good for you. The problem comes when those sleeping. tablets are over prescribed. So, insomnia is in the in the sleep world we. call it a door handle diagnosis because.

when the doctor has their hand on the. door and they're just about to leave, that's when the patient says, "Oh, and. by the way, I'm not sleeping.". And then the doctor [clears throat]. usually pulls out the prescription pad. and says, you know, Ambien or trazodone. or something like that. Writes it up, says, "Here, come back in 30 days.". Well, you haven't really done anything. for this person. You've handed them a. pill, and by the way, now they're. probably either psychologically or. physiologically addicted to said pill, right? Now, once again, if you've got a. major mental health issue, I don't think. I care. I think it's okay for you to. have your Ambien and be fine. >> And And a lot of people that do have.

insomnia have depression. >> Oh, I think it's one of the biggest. things that we see. But I would argue. anxiety might be a little bit more than. depression, but yes, anxiety and. depression I would argue make up 75% of. insomnia at any given time, right? I. work with people and I do something. called cognitive behavioral therapy for. insomnia, which you correctly identified. as CBT-I, right? And so I work with. patients all the time, um and that's. exactly what we do is we reschedule. them, so that's the behavioral part, and. then the cognitive part is we talk to. them about how do you think about sleep?

of people think about sleep in. disastrous ways. They're like, "If I. don't get 8 hours, my whole day is. screwed and everything's going to. happen." It rarely happens that way. Like, it's called catastrophizing. You. just make it worse and worse and worse. And so we look at those cognitive. distortions, and we help fix them in. therapy by really kind of what I call. doing the math. And so I say, "Well, have you ever had 4 hours of sleep?". Yes. "Did you do something terrible the. next day?" No. "So, where's your. evidence, right?" And you start to get. people to challenge themselves, and all. of a sudden they kind of they can kind.

of get there. There's also another area. of that a lot of people go to, somewhere. in between the pills and therapy, and. that's supplementation. So there's a lot. of people out there who like to use. supplements and try to understand how to. fix, quote, their insomnia with. supplementation. So if we can, let's. talk a little bit about supplements and. sort of what's good and what's bad. >> What is the difference between a. supplement and a pill? Or is it you're. talking about the same thing here? >> So, under the context of this. conversation, a supplement is a non-FDA.

regulated thing that you can purchase at. any drugstore and a pill is a by. prescription only from a doctor. >> Okay. >> That's how we're going to make the. distinction for this particular. conversation. >> Okay. So, those pills that are in front. of you there. >> So, right in front of me, these are most. These are actually all. supplements. So, these are different. things So, these are not. pharmaceuticals. These are different. things. So, we've got. >> in different countries, it's different, right? >> Great point. So, let's talk about. melatonin since that's kind of the. biggie that a lot of people like to know.

about. So, number one, melatonin is by. prescription only almost everywhere. other than the United States. >> Yeah. >> Right? So, in England, in Australia, in. Europe, you can't just walk into the. drugstore and buy melatonin. And there's. a reason. A lot of people don't realize. it, but melatonin is a hormone. There's. a reason you can't go to the CVS and get. testosterone and estrogen, right? Because hormones affect the entire. system. They affect all three almost 300. different things in your body. So, what. you don't want to do is have somebody. just willy-nilly grabbing a hormone and.

starting to pop it without somebody. understanding what's going on with them. More importantly, melatonin in. particular, and the point I wanted to. make earlier about depression, melatonin. interacts with all SSRI medication. An. SSRI is a serotonin specific reuptake. inhibitor, an antidepressant. So, things. like Prozac, Zoloft, um Celexa, all of. those are medications that will be. affected by melatonin ingestion and.

nobody knows that it is. In addition, melatonin affects birth control. Yes, you heard it here. Birth control. It affects blood pressure medication and. it affects diabetes medication. So, one. of the problems is that people go into. the local drugstore and they're like, "Ah, I'm going to grab some melatonin. and I'm going to make my sleep better. cuz I'm sleeping poorly." So, first of. all, that's not what melatonin does. Melatonin is a sleep regulator, not a. sleep initiator. Melatonin doesn't. affect sleep drive, melatonin affects.

sleep rhythm. So remember in the. beginning of our conversation we're. talking about the two systems. Melatonin. only affects your brain telling it when. it's time to go to bed. It does not make. you sleepy. That's adenosine. We already. talked about adenosine and caffeine and. how similar their molecular structures. are. So when you look at something like. melatonin, you need to really be. thoughtful about using it. Number two, melatonin is not to be used in children. Okay? So a lot of people are like, "Michael, I've got pediatricians all. over the country telling my telling me.

to give my children melatonin." I'm. going to say it right here in front of. everybody. That is the dumbest idea I. have heard in a long time. Because you. just taught your child that they need a. pill to sleep. No really, no child needs pills to. sleep. And by the way, most children. make almost four times the amount of. melatonin that their brain even needs. So giving them extra melatonin doesn't. do you any good. There is however one. group of children where melatonin does. work well, and that's in kids on the. autism spectrum. Um we don't know.

exactly why, but um or at least I don't, but there is data to suggest that at 5, 6, 7 mg, that that can be very helpful. for them. Dosage also is a problem. Like. if you go to the drugstore, you can you. almost can't find it in the appropriate. dose. The appropriate dose is anywhere. from about half a milligram to 1 and 1/2. milligrams. Maybe top out at three, but. that's about as high as you want to go. But when you go to CVS, you find it. gummies in 10 and 20 milligrams. And. people tell me all the time, "Oh, I. can't take melatonin, it gives me crazy.

dreams." Number one side effect of. overdosing on melatonin is crazy dreams. >> On this point of going to a supermarket. and picking some melatonin off the. shelf, >> Mhm. >> FDA approval. and the lack of FDA approval in. melatonin means that there's less. clarity on what's actually in there, right? >> I was reading about a study in 2024. um where they looked at different. melatonins that were found on the shelf. >> And they found very different things. inside the bottle. >> Very, very different things. They looked.

at an analysis of melatonin gummies. marketed for children and found that the. actual amount of melatonin ranged from. 0%. >> Right. >> to 667%. of what was listed on the label. >> Yep, see it all the time. >> And in the same study melatonin gummies. some melatonin gummies contained. absolutely no melatonin while others. contained hazardous contaminants like. CBD that were not disclosed on the. label. >> Yep. >> Because melatonin is sold as a. supplement in the US and not a drug, the. FDA does not test it for safety or.

accuracy before it hits the shelf. >> You are 100% correct and that's a huge. problem. Just think about that for a. second. I mean, the market for melatonin. is tremendous. It's huge in the. supplement world. Yet, there's no. regulation whatsoever. Nobody knows. about these interaction effects which. are big, big, big. And by the way, most. people are using it wrong. There's. really only three, maybe four different. instances when melatonin would be. useful. I would use melatonin for jet. lag and we should talk about jet lag. Um. I would I would use melatonin for shift.

workers, right? So, for people who work, you know, night shift, who have to sleep. during the daytime, they would be. excellent people to use melatonin. People with a melatonin deficiency. A lot of people don't think about that, but right around age 50 is when if. you're going to have a melatonin. deficiency, we start to see that. happening for people is it their their. ability to produce melatonin begins to. decline. So, I think those three. situations absolutely would be on board. for melatonin. Believe it or not, there's some data to show that in ADD. and ADHD, there's some use for melatonin.

and then also for a very specific. sleeping disorder called REM behavior. disorder. >> We're going melatonin crazy as a. society, aren't we? >> Absolutely. We don't need it. It's. completely unnecessary. >> I was looking at the data in 1999, 0.4%. of Americans said they used melatonin. Today it's almost 30% so that's 70. million Americans. >> up. Dude, that is problematic. And. again, they have no idea what it's doing. to them. Right? And they're giving it to. their kids. Like I can't think of.

anything worse for a young female. developing body than to add a. contraceptive when it's not necessary. Like it just doesn't make sense to me. >> The rise in children overdosing on sleep. gummies is the fastest growing trend in. poison control data. >> Yeah, I think it's like almost 600%. increase or something crazy like that. for kids who have. gotten who've overdosed on melatonin. like within There was a study that came. out maybe a year ago, year and a half. ago. Showed like almost 600%. increase in overdoses for kids. Like.

that's pretty messed up when you start. to think about it. And here's the thing, kids know how to sleep. Right? You just. got to stop You just got to let them. sleep, right? You got to give them some. parameters. Here's when you go to bed, here's when you wake up. Don't get out. of bed, you know, don't come in and ask. for 12 glasses of water, you know, all. the all this stuff that goes on there. I. mean, this isn't hard. >> So when and how? So I used melatonin. once in my life. >> Okay. >> And I've got to be honest, it [ __ ]. worked. >> Yeah. Oh. >> Um. >> If you use it right, [laughter] it. works, bro. >> And it was it was actually about a week. ago because I'd been struggling with.

lots of jet lag. I'd flown from UK to. the LA [clears throat] to UK to LA to. Cape Town to Middle East to wherever. And. I was getting to bed every night at like. 4:00, 5:00 a.m. and still waking up at, you know, having to wake up at about. 10:00. So I thought I need to correct. this. It's been going on for 2 weeks and. I need to correct this. [laughter]. >> I thought [ __ ] it, I'm going to cave. I. took the melatonin and. corrected it. >> Yes, it does. So let's talk about jet. lag. So. it's a bit of a story, but I got. involved with a company that has got an.

app, which is very interesting. Okay? I. don't have any like I'm not invested in. the company just to be clear, but it's. one of my close friends who developed. this. So I'm I'm of a space nerd. >> Time shifter. >> It is time shifter. >> Oh, really? >> [laughter]. >> It is time shifter. >> like an affiliation with time shifter. Cuz I I used to be. >> [laughter]. >> Yeah, I will get you that. So, here's. what's fascinating is the way the whole. time shifter started was um so, aren't. you kind of a space guy? Like aren't you. a space nerd? Like aren't you a space. nerd? Like aren't you a space nerd? Okay, so I'm a space nerd myself, right?

So, you know that the ISS is moving. around at 17,500 mph around the earth. It's cooking. >> ISS meaning the International Space. Station. >> yeah. It's whipping around, right? Can you imagine how many sunrises and. sunsets they get in a given day? >> I don't know. How many? >> Every 2 hours. So, they basically get. 12. >> Wow. >> Think about how messed up their. circadian rhythms would be from seeing. the sunrise and seeing it go and seeing. it gets really messed up, right? And by. the way, you don't want to make big. mistakes in the space station. Like you. don't want to leave the airlock open,

you know, or [ __ ] like that. Like that's. when things get really, really bad. So, they called down to NASA and they were. like, "Hey, we got a problem up here. Everybody wants to use the lab at the. same time. Like people are seeing the. sun. Like what's going on?" So, they. called a buddy of mine named Steven. Lockley over at Harvard. Steven is arguably the one of the best. circadian researchers in the world. Um. super smart dude. And he was like, "Well, let's send up a lighting kit and. let's create shifts on the space. station.". >> Mhm. >> Right? [clears throat] So, that's. exactly what they did. So, they sent up. a lighting kit. I think it was on the. Columbia um shuttle before it got.

decommissioned and they set up lighting. and then they set up timing for. lighting. And so, there was a morning. shift, a mid shift, and a night shift. for the astronauts. Once they got the. algorithm working, they brought it down. terrestrially and they put it into the. Mercedes-Benz uh Formula 1 race car. team. So, they gave it to Lewis. Hamilton. >> Mhm. >> Right? Because when you think about it, think about what he has to do, right? He's on or off the podium on hundreds of. a second, right? And he's in a different. country every 3 weeks, right? So, this. guy's got jet lag like you wouldn't. believe. And so, once we were able to. get it going there, then we created the.

time shifter app. And so, it's an app. you can get it on your phone. And what. you do is you put in your flight number. and it automatically pulls up the flight. and knows where you are. This is why I. think that jet lag is a math problem. Let me explain. We learned about 20. years ago that when you take a certain. frequency and intensity of light and you. shine it in somebody's eyes, you can. move their circadian rhythm by about 8. hours if you want to. >> That circadian rhythm again being. >> being that internal biological clock, the times when your body wants to go to. bed and wants to wake up. We can. actually move that by about 8 hours with.

about 10,000 lux, which is the. brightness level of a blue light, particular frequency of light, okay? So, when you hit that. if you start in LA and you're going to. Manchester, right? And there's a big. time difference, and you know what time. it is in LA and you know what time it is. in Manchester, it's a math problem of. when do you get the light? So, that's what Timeshifter is, is it. determines when do you need that light? And then on the times when you don't. need light, it has you use caffeine,

right? Or to keep you awake, or if it's. time to sleep, then you use a little bit. of melatonin. That's when melatonin. becomes so valuable. >> It also tells you when to eat. >> It does. It tells you all of these. different things. And it's kind of nice. cuz it kind of shows up on your phone. It's like, "Hey, do this then, do this. then." And it works really, really well. But. yeah, Timeshifter is one of my. favorites. Uh I've been uh using it. literally for 15 years. >> Wow. >> And it solves jet lag, bro. Like, we're. going to fix that for you. No No. question.

>> How often should someone be having. melatonin? Is there like too often? Cuz. some people literally have it every day. >> Yeah, I would argue it's a bad idea. So, if you have a melatonin deficiency, sure, have it every day. But um or if. you're a shift worker, probably. But I I. use it only for jet lag myself. I. otherwise I'm not using it on the. regular. >> And what's the risk there of having it. every day? Is it. >> Uh it's a good question. So, when you. start to look at melatonin overdose and. you start to look at melatonin on board. for long periods of time, there's been. some conflict in the in the research. Um.

there's a group of people that say if. you stay on melatonin for extended. periods of time, your body stops. producing it. There's another group of. people that have looked at research and. have said, "Actually, that's not the. case." So, right now we have we have. studies that lead out to about a year or. so on melatonin and when you stop their. melatonin production after they've been. taking it for a year, their body seems. to start back up no problem. It's. different than testosterone, right? So, with testosterone, we know that when men. start taking testosterone, their body.

actually stops producing it. With. melatonin, that does not appear to be. the case, but we don't have studies that. go out past, you know, that year-long. And so, if somebody's been taking. melatonin every day for 5, 10 years, you. know, you you kind of start to wonder uh. what's going to happen. Also, don't. forget that that melatonin is different. than the melatonin that's actually. produced in your head. >> I think it was Andrew Huberman who I was. speaking to a couple of weeks ago that. was was saying about not giving kids an. overdose of melatonin. And I think. afterwards I I was doing some research. on it and I read something that said.

it has an impact on puberty potentially. >> So, in high dosages, melatonin is a. contraceptive. >> So, that would pause puberty. >> Exactly. Or change it. >> Okay. >> And ways we may or may not know. So, I. agree with Andrew on that point that. again, melatonin is not something that. kids need unless you've got kids on the. spectrum, which is again where I find it. to be helpful and I've treated kids with. that before. But generally speaking, I. don't put melatonin on anybody under the. age of 18.

>> Am I more likely to have nightmares if. I'm having lots of melatonin? >> If you're overdosing, you are. So, the. number one side effect of a high dose of. melatonin is super vivid dreams and then. eventually nightmares. >> Why? >> I'm not really sure. If I was garnering. a guess, then what I would say is that. part of the reason why that you have. crazy vivid dreams from melatonin is. because it probably does put you into. REM sleep a little bit quicker than you. normally would and might keep you there. a little bit longer. I don't have any.

data to support that, so I want to be. clear. Um, this is more of a hypothesis. on my end, but that might make intuitive. sense to me. >> Just doing a quick search. Um, >> Sure. >> It's You're right. It says it keep keeps. you in REM sleep a little bit longer and. more intensely. >> There you go. >> This leads to vivid highly vivid dreams. or night terrors, which paradoxically. makes you wake up feeling more. exhausted. Mm. >> Right. I can't count the number of. people who tell me. "I need to go back to sleep cuz I'm so. exhausted from my dreams.". >> Oh, wow. >> Right? >> So, let's finish off on the supplements, then. >> Yeah. Absolutely. So, we talked a little.

bit about melatonin, which like I said, select usage. Um, a couple of other ones. that we've got here. Um, one of them is. valerian, right? So, when we talk. Valerian is probably the most studied. It's a root. Um, it's called the. valerian root, but to be clear, it's an. anti-anxiety medication, right? So, what. it is is it's It helps lower your level. of anxiety. Um, and that is the reason. why it has a tendency to work. Interestingly, when you look at the. data, it works better when combined with. hops, like what you'd find in beer. So, a lot of times when you're looking for a.

preparation, you should look for. valerian plus hops as the preparation. Also, we should talk for a second about. supplements. A lot of people don't. understand this, but a lot of people. will put a whole bunch of different. supplements together and put it into a. capsule. I don't think that's the best. idea. I think you should have single. ingredient supplementation. >> Why? >> Well, number one, you get the correct. dose, so you know it's actually working. for you. There's a lot of companies out. there that are that make a powder or. something and they put it bunch of stuff. in it and they put just enough in there.

to be able to say it on the ingredient. profile, but not enough for it to. actually do any good for the patient. So, [clears throat] I like using single. ingredient. supplement profiles because I know. exactly how much of each thing that I'm. going to get in there and I can make. sure that it's the correct dosage for. the what the person needs. So, I prefer single ingredient. supplementation. >> Okay, so. valer- valer- valerian. >> Yep. Valerian. >> root. >> Not going to mess up my hormones? >> Nope, it's not going to mess up your. hormones. >> Is it going to help me with. overthinking?

>> Probably not. What it'll probably do is. slow your thinking down a a little bit. depending upon how much of it you take. Um I think if you were looking for a if. you're looking for something that's. going to slow down your thinking, then I. would say we don't have the the thing. here, but it's called GABA, g a b a. Um. gamma aminobutyric acid. So, this is a. substance that your body makes. It's. kind of the brakes of the brain, and you. can buy it um. as a supplement. I've had some for. people use that, and that seems to help. calm people down in the evening times. >> What about ashwagandha, whatever it's. called? >> Ashwagandha.

>> Ashwagandha. >> Exactly. I just kind of like saying it. So, here's my theory on supplementation. is the first thing I tell people to do. is go do blood work. Okay? What. deficiencies do you have? Fix your. deficiencies first before we start going. to the valerians and the melatonins of. it all. If you're deficient in vitamin. D, magnesium, iron, fix those three things first. Dude, I. can't tell you I've got 15% of the. people that show up at my doorstep, we. do blood work on, and all I do is fix.

their deficiencies, and their sleep. magically gets better. >> some of the surprising things that you. discover in like blood sugar like. diabetes, that impacts sleep, no? >> It absolutely does. I also think that a. lot of people who have uncontrolled. diabetes, it wakes them up in the middle. of the night um because their blood. sugar gets so low, and then they're. hungry in the middle of the night, then. they end up eating in the middle of the. night, then they end up with sleep. eating syndrome, which kind of a pain. >> This is one here that I've never heard. of before. What's this one? >> Uh it's called tryptophan. So, uh. L-tryptophan in in in particular. So, tryptophan is the substance that we find.

in turkey that has a tendency to make. people sleepy. However, when you really. look at the data, you'd have to eat a. 46-lb turkey in order to get enough. tryptophan to make you sleep. Even in my. best days in college, dude, I couldn't. eat a 46-lb turkey, okay? Same holds. true with milk. Um tryptophan is the. thing in warm milk that's supposedly. makes people uh sleepy, but once again, you'd have to drink almost a half a. gallon of warm milk, which is kind of. disgusting, um in order to do it. Tryptophan can be helpful for people if. you have a tryptophan deficiency, but.

it's definitely something that lowers a. little bit of anxiety and can make you. feel a little bit sleepy, but it isn't. naturally occurring amino acid in your. system. Calcium? So, calcium turns out is interesting. because when you mix calcium with. magnesium, it's easier to absorb. So, uh. for some people mag mag we've what we've. discovered is if you have a magnesium. deficiency and you fix the magnesium. deficiency, in many cases it can. actually help with overall sleep, and. calcium is one of the things that can be. added to it that helps with absorption.

Now, unfortunately, the big problem is. that there are 13 different kinds of. magnesium out there, and so people don't. know what's been studied and what. hasn't. So, I'm here to let you know. there's only a couple of brands out. there that have actually been studied. for magnesium. The ones I like is. there's one called magnesium threonate, which is made by a company called Mag. Teen. Um they actually have a published. research study in the journals, that's. why I mentioned their brand name. I have. no association with them. There's also.

another company called Upgraded. Formulas. They make a magnesium, and. it's kind of funny story is the guy who. runs mag uh Upgraded Formulas told me he. says, "My magnesium is the best in the. world. I can make anybody fall asleep.". And I said, "Hey, you want to put your. money where your mouth is? Let's do a. clinical trial." He handed me a check. for 75 grand. I went and did a clinical. trial, and he was right. His magnesium. really made people sleep better. >> What is magnesium doing? >> So, we're not 100% sure. In the. deficient people, it's it's obviously. clearing up the deficiency of magnesium,

and then magnesium is used in about I. think almost 300 different functions in. the body, so it probably lets the body. work more efficiently, and probably that. helps to overall sleep. But I'm not. convinced that we have the whole. mechanism of action worked out. I will. tell you that when people take. magnesium, they tell me that they. introspectively feel calmer. And we. definitely know that it can definitely. help cause a relaxation response in the. musculature, so I think that might have. something to do with it. >> Why did you bring up a banana and a. knife and a teapot?

>> This is my favorite way to get. magnesium. >> Oh. >> A lot of people want to know how should. I take my supplements? I'm tired of. taking a fistful of pills every morning, Michael. There's these powders, like. what what's the best way? The best way, so number one, supplementation is when. you're not getting it all of the things, the vitamins and minerals that you need. from your food. So, the best place to. get it from is food, generally speaking. Turns out magnesium is one of the best. ones, but it's problematic because we. have to eat our magnesium, our body. doesn't actually produce it ourselves.

And by the way, you can eat a bushel of. kale and still not get enough magnesium. because here in the United States, the. soil has been over tilled, which means. the magnesium isn't in the soil, so it's. not coming up through the root stocks. and allowing people to have it. So, a. lot of people require magnesium. supplementation. Believe it or not, between magnesium and vitamin D, I'd say. we'd probably covered most of America in. terms of having a deficiency. Bananas are loaded with magnesium, but. it turns out it's not the fruit, it's. the peel. >> Oh. >> itself. So, no, I'm not going to make.

you eat the peel. Don't worry. So, I. developed a recipe that I call banana. tea. All of this is is a regular old. banana. So, what I what you do is you. cut off the stem, right, and cut it in. half, and then you drop it in to some. boiling water, okay? So, we've already. done this, right? And you can see the. banana has turned brown, right? It's been soaking in the boiling. water. So, it's not really tea, it's. just basically hot banana water. But, with the banana from the skin, you. also get these things called. phytosteroids that actually help you.

absorb the magnesium better than if you. just had it from a supplement. So, So, have to really like bananas. My daughter. says it's very banana-y, Dad. The flavor, I mean. >> Oh, it does smell like banana. >> I'm telling you, if you like bananas. >> It's nice. >> I know. >> It's nice. >> And you can use this as a like an. evening ritual, and you can make banana. tea, and have it in the evening with, you know, a biscuit or what have you, and have a nice and read a book and just. be chill. >> How do I know the magnesium's actually.

in there? >> Cuz it came through from the from the um. steeping in the water. >> Okay. >> We could test it if you want, but I can. assure you it's in there. You need to. leave it in there for about 5 minutes, and we've been talking for a while, so. I'm pretty sure it's there. >> And and how long before sleep to get. those effects? >> say about 25-30 minutes. You don't want. to have too much, by the way, cuz then. you're going to have to wake up and pee. So, try if you can. to be able to have it about 30-40. minutes before bed. >> So, you can put it in anything. So, a. lot of people have different types of. tea, so you could just use that as the. water instead. >> Yeah. Oh, without question. Actually, that would be a really good idea. And. you can if you did it if you mix it with.

like a fruit tea, like an herbal fruit. tea, that would be really delicious. >> Are there any other supplements that. you, you know, you do encourage people. to take if they're struggling with sleep. that we haven't talked about yet? >> We haven't talked about vitamin D, and. that's a big one. So, it turns out that. vitamin D is a circadian pacemaker. So, when light comes into your eyeballs, it. helps change your whole uh circadian. system, and if you're if light is coming. in for a certain amount of time, about. 15 minutes, your body will start to. produce vitamin D. Vitamin D does a. whole host of important things to your.

body, but most importantly from a sleep. perspective is it helps regulate. melatonin and when your body produces. it. So, by taking vitamin D every day, or getting 15 minutes of sunshine, either way, you're going to be in better. shape. So, like as an example, my. morning routine that I have all my. patients do is I have them when they. wake up in the morning, I have them uh go outside if it's if. it's, you know, nice out, sit in a. chair, and have 15 deep breaths merely. to wake up the respiratory system, then. 15 oz of water, cuz once again,

remember, you're dehydrated, and then 15. minutes of sunshine. So, they can do all. of this together at the same time, and. it's a nice way to wake up in the. morning. >> I don't know any founder who started. their business because they like doing. admin. But, whether you like it or not, it's a huge part of running a business. successfully. And it's something that. can quickly become all consuming, confusing, and honestly, a real tax. because you know it's taking your. attention away from the most important. work. And that's why our sponsor, Intuit. QuickBooks, helps my team streamline a. lot of their admin. I asked my team.

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evolved into a platform that scales with. growing businesses. So, if you want help. getting out of the weeds, out of admin, just search for Intuit QuickBooks now. This is something that I've made for. you. I realized that the Diary of a CEO. audience are strivers, whether it's in. business or health. We all have big. goals that we want to accomplish. And. one of the things I've learned is that. when you aim at the big, big, big goal, it can feel incredibly psychologically. uncomfortable because it's kind of like. being stood at the foot of Mount Everest.

and looking upwards. The way to. accomplish your goals is by breaking. them down into tiny, small steps. And we. call this in our team the 1%. And. actually, this philosophy is highly. responsible for much of our success. here. So, what we've done so that you at. home can accomplish any big goal that. you have is we've made these 1% diaries. And we released these last year, and. they all sold out. So, I asked my team. over and over again to bring the the. back, but also to introduce some new. colors, and to make some minor tweaks to. the diary. So, now we have a better.

range for you. So, if you have a big. goal in mind and you need a framework. and a process and some motivation, then. I highly recommend you get one of these. diaries before they all sell out once. again. And you can get yours now at the. diary.com where you can get 20% off our. Black Friday bundle. And if you want the. link, the link is in the description. below. So, let's talk about waking up in the. morning. >> Sure. >> Morning routines. >> Yep. >> A lot of people talk about what's the. perfect morning routine. Do you need to. have a morning routine? What's your take. on that?

>> So, it depends upon how disciplined you want. to be and it depends upon how much time. you have. I can tell you what my morning. routine is cuz it's very specific and I. I've discovered that it works really, really well for me. So, I wake up. naturally somewhere between 6:10 and. about 6:25 or so. My body just seems to. naturally wake up. I do 15 minutes of. red light therapy. So, I have a red. light in my office that I sit in front. of and I do my meditation at the same. time in the morning time. So, I have. about 15 minutes of meditation. Sometimes what I'll do. is.

I'll sit on the floor and the boys will. come and sit on my lap and then we'll. all meditate together. I know that. sounds a little weird. Then. we do a 15-minute walk. I try not to. have any music or any telephone or. anything like that. at all up until this point. I put the. dogs away and then I hit the gym. I'm at. the gym from about 8:00 till about 9:30, 10:00. I do a sauna every day afterwards. and then I'm in front of my desk by. about 10:30 and that's when I have my. breakfast. And so, I make the same. breakfast almost every morning. I do.

ground turkey with a third of a pound of. ground turkey, three eggs, and broccoli. and I I put it all into a skillet and I. make it every morning. >> Do you use any sleep trackers? >> In the past, I've used a few of them. I. I tried them out because a lot of my. patients tried them out. I think if I was going to be looking at. them, I think the Aura Ring probably. does the best job. I really don't think. they've gotten there quite yet cuz. remember depth of sleep is based on. brain waves and it's hard to get brain. waves from your finger, right? And so. what they're doing is they're creating a.

proxy so they're you're looking at heart. rate or oxygen or pulse or something. along those lines and then saying, "Okay, when Steven's at this pulse, we. think he's in REM sleep so we're going. to label every time that REM sleep.". When in fact, they don't really know. because they're not measuring your brain. waves. So, I think until we get to the. point where we can measure brain waves. from distally, I think we'll have a. little bit better shot at it. However, there's some interesting things that are. going on kind of in the sleep tracker. world and some people get a little too. into the whole tracking of it all if you.

know what I mean. Like I can't count the. number of people that are like, "Oh my. god, Dr. Bruce, you know, this says I. only slept 14 minutes last night. Like. what do I do?" And I'm like, "Well, number one, how much did you sleep the. night before?" And they say, "Oh, 16. minutes." I'm like, "Okay, well, let's. check you tomorrow." They come back in. tomorrow, "It's even worse, 12 minutes.". I'm like, "Oh, you're fine." They're. like, "What?" I'm like, "Look, it's. being consistently inaccurate. There's. no way you only got 14 minutes of deep. sleep, right? That's just not how the. body works, right? But if you got 14. minutes, 14 minutes and then one night. you look at your score and it's 407.

minutes, I want [clears throat] to know. what happened on that night. >> My friend was a big fan of Whoop so he. told me to try Whoop. I tried a Whoop. The the most I think critical thing it's. done for me is it allowed me to create. some understanding of like causation and. like. >> associations. >> associations with my sleep. So, one of. the ones that completely changed my life. when I first wore my Whoop, which by the. way I'm an investor in the company so I. have to disclaimer that, um. was I didn't realize how impactful sleep. alcohol was on my sleep.

>> It's massive, dude. >> my mind because I had [laughter] had one. glass of wine. >> Yep. >> and then the bloody Whoop thing said, "Shh, you're either really sick. um really stressed or you drank. alcohol." And then I watched a video. online where they compared all of the. devices to the hospital grade stuff. >> Yep, polysomnography. >> And the Whoop 4 was the closest to the. hospital grade. And then I contacted the. company and said could I invest etc. etc. I also tried I've also tried like. Eight Sleep and. >> I would argue that temperature, like if. we're talking about what is the easiest.

thing to manipulate to change your sleep. either good or bad, temperature is it. Um and people don't realize it, but you. can change the temperature in your. bedroom, even in your bed, and you can. change the quality of your sleep. You. mentioned Eight Sleep, that's a company. that has a a topper type of thing that. can change the uh the temperature. underneath the covers. There's also. taking a look at the the accoutrement. that's on, so pillows, sheets, comforters, all of those things. But if. you can get your body to cool down, your. body will go down and get into deeper.

stages of sleep. If you can stay cool. versus bumping up and down all night. long, let's say you're a woman in. menopause, right? That becomes highly. disruptive. And so buying a by being. able to. keep a consistent temperature stimulus. to the body, it ends up sleeping a whole. lot better. >> Dreams. >> Let's talk about dreams. >> People are so fascinated by dreams. >> Aren't they? I love it. >> But but so little is known about dreams. >> Yeah. Well, yes and no. I mean, here's. the thing. Dreams have been studied honestly since.

the dawn of time. If you look in the. Bible, you will see that people are. talking about dreams. If you look at. ancient texts, people are wondering. about these crazy movies that are going. on in my head, right? When you start to. look at dreams, here's the thing that I. will tell you is. dreams mean something to the dreamer. They don't necessarily mean something to. somebody who is not the dreamer. And so. when I do dream work, and so I so to be. clear, just take a step back. I took a. year and a half and I became a dream. therapist. So, what does that mean? What.

is that even Is that even a thing? So, dream therapy, by the way, is not dream. interpretation. That is not here's a. symbol, here's what that means. Dream. therapy is where you use dreams in the. therapeutic context to help people with. things like depression and anxiety. >> Mhm. >> Let me give you an example, a nightmare, right? So, when somebody has Let's say. somebody was in an active theater of war. and they watched one of their friends, God forbid, something terrible happened. to them and that image is now in their.

head and now they constantly have this. image over and over and over. But, what. happens is they're going going going and. they wake up. They're going going going. they wake up. We talked a little bit. about it earlier that dreams are. emotional metabolism. Right? So, dreams. are where you work out all of these. different things that are going on in. your head and kind of become okay with. them so that way next day you can kind. of move forward and keep keep doing your. thing. >> Do we need to explain why we dream? Cuz. I think that's the big sort of. >> Sure. So, there's a couple of theories. One theory is is that this is a great.

stage for for practice, right? So, we. dream about things that we're eventually. going to try in the real world and so we. get a chance to practice them in our. head beforehand to to make sure it. doesn't we don't kind of screw the whole. thing up. So, there's that whole idea of. being able to kind of work stuff out in. my head. Then there's the processing. idea that we talked about before where. this is emotional metabolism. So, >> Therapy. >> Right. Exactly. It's like you go to. therapy every single night. I Actually, it's a really good way to think about. it. I hadn't thought about it like that, but I think I'm going to use that. I'm. going to take that from you. Um I like.

that dreams are therapy every single. night because they really are. You're. really moving through a lot of that. emotionality. Some people think dreams. are complete nonsense. Some people think. that's just some crazy movie in your. head and it's just this after effect of. your brain moving into a different mode. and who knows what it could mean. I find. that one hard to believe myself. >> Because humans don't do anything. >> I don't think so. >> that isn't for some type of survival. benefit. >> For sure. >> It's a waste of. energy or you know. >> Yeah, I agree. And so, if we looked at. it from an evolutionary perspective,

like what is the evolutionary purpose of. dreams? I would argue that it probably. has something to do with emotions and. being able to uh uh move through some. emotionally difficult times and or it's. an early warning system. A lot of people. dream things and uh it helps them. understand something else that's going. on in their life. You ever heard the um. thing uh people say I before I make a. just big decision I want to sleep on it? >> Yeah. >> Right? This is what they're doing is. when they sleep on it, all these. desperate pieces of information come. together and work themselves so that you.

can come to a solution. So, I think the. other thing that reason that we dream is. to come to solutions and to create. innovation. >> That tracks in my life. I I can be. going to bed really thinking about. something quite like, you know, hi. remunerating about something to the. point that it's like overthinking and. it's a problem, it's stressing me out. I. can get 8 hours sleep and wake up and. it's like the clouds have parted. >> Right? It's like magic. >> It's like magic. >> It's great. >> And I really I realized this in the last. couple of years when, you know, business.

my business has got bigger and there was. more problems to to work through. >> Right. >> But like actually I could use sleep as a. weapon against the problem. >> Absolutely. >> Versus trying to stay up all night and. solve the problem, I could focus on the. sleep to solve the problem. >> Yeah, I do that all the time. And And. what you can actually do, it's called. priming, is you can think about the. problem in a in a way before you go to. sleep and then it triggers your brain to. think about the problem while you're. sleeping. >> Would you write it down or would you. >> There's a lot of different ways you can. go about doing it. So, for example, what. I have some people do is write down.

everything they can remember in their. dream beforehand before they come to. therapy. But what you can do is. something different. If you want to. change your dream, you write it all down. but that you change the ending. Okay? And you read it several times. before bed and it will actually change. your dream. >> So, what am I writing down before bed. then? >> So, let's say you had a scary dream, okay? You're walking through a haunted. house and something terrible is going to. happen when you walk out the back door. >> The night before? >> Yeah, the night before. Then I have you. write all of that down and then when you. come into session with me, I say, "Okay,

we're going to change the ending cuz at. the at the very end you walked out onto. the fortune somebody. got you, right?" So, instead of that. happening, you're going to walk out of. the fortune you're going to pull out a. gun and you're going to shoot the guy. Okay? And so, we change that in the. dream in the right in what you wrote. down, and then we talk about it in. therapy, and then right before bed you. read this to yourself multiple times, and it over 7 to 10 days you change the. ending of the dream. >> And how does that help? >> So, it makes it more positive. And when. you change the ending of the reason.

you're waking up is something is scaring. you so much that you're waking up and. you stop processing. And so, when you. change the ending and you don't wake up, you continue to process and then you. move past the dream. Just like you said, when you wake up and the clouds have. cleared. A lot of people wake up and the. clouds don't clear cuz they have. nightmares. And they keep repeating it. over and over and over again. >> Hmm. >> It's quite remarkable. The process is. very interesting. So, what I do is I. bring them into session, put them into a. mild hypnotic state only by doing some. simple breath work, right? So, let me.

give you an example of somebody that I. worked with and tell you exactly how it. went. So, I was working with somebody. who had had pretty significant trauma. They had been raped, right? And so, they. were having nightmares about this. So, a. serious situation, right? So, she had a. she had a nightmare of being in a. jungle. And so, I had her come in. session, wrote it all down, and when we. got to the end, we were walking through. the jungle which she was actually being. chased through the jungle. So, I turned. to her and I say, "Okay, well, we're in. the jungle. Tell me more about this. jungle.". And she said, "What do you mean?" I. said, "Well, in jungles there's lots of.

tropical plants. There are there a lot. of colorful flowers." And she'll stop. And you can see she's looking around. inside her head at the dreamscape. And. then she says, "Oh, there are there's. some beautiful flowers over there." I've. now advanced the dream, right? Because. she didn't know there were flowers. before. Now she's imagined that there. are flowers, I'm moving the dream. forward. So, we go over and we smell the. flower and I said, "Well, you know, usually in jungles there's there's. animals. Are there any animals?". Tick tick tick tick tick tick, tick, Yeah, there's a lion. Oh gosh, is the lion friendly? Yeah, the lion is friendly. Can we go.

over and talk to the lion? Yeah, Michael, we can. So, again, in her. head, we walk over. So, I say to her, Uh does the lion have a name? And she. said, I don't know, let me ask. So, she. asked the lion his name, and she said, yeah, his name is Jack. And I said, what. does Jack mean to you? And instantly, she says, Jack was my uncle, and he. saved me from getting raped by my. stepfather. Now, we're getting somewhere. Now, we understand what's chasing her. Now, we understand where she's headed. to. She's trying to head to the person.

that saved her. Now, she starts to understand where this. dream is coming from, and guess what? In. three or four more sessions, she doesn't. have to dream anymore. >> Because you did what? >> Because she now understands where it is. She's no longer scared in the middle of. her dream. She's able to understand it, wake up, and move forward. It's remarkable. It's kind of the coolest thing ever, if. you want to know the truth of the. matter. >> [laughter]. >> Working with people's dreams is just. amazing stuff. >> And for people at home that might not. have access to you, um is is this is.

there a simple thing that they can do to. start to sort of get a hold of these. dreams? >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. Number one is you. could actually start a dream journal. So, it's just a journal, um and there's. a couple things that you would write. down in a given dream journal. So, you. might write down um what was the theme, right? So, was it what like describe it, like was it dark out? Was it light out? Uh was it scary? Was it happy? You might. describe the surroundings of it, and you. might describe the people that are in it. as well. Um and start listing these. things, and getting as detailed as you.

possibly can. Once you've kind of gotten. through the point of getting the details. down of your dream, then, if you want to. change them, you can change the ending. It's not hard. You just change it to way. you want it to be. Then, you start to. read it over for yourself. Now, I want. to be clear, in terrible nightmare situations, this. can be a little bit difficult, and so. you're probably going to want to talk. with your therapist about it and maybe. work with a therapist while doing. something like this, but it is. absolutely possible to collect. information from in a dream journal and. be able to do some interesting stuff.

with it. I would not recommend taking. your dream and stuffing it into chat GPT. and asking chat GPT what it means. Lots and lots of people are doing that. these days and here's why that's. probably not the best idea. So number. one, unless chat GPT really knows and. understands you, there it's going to. give some very broad-based sort of. encyclopedia, you know, here's a symbol. that means this type of thing, which. once again, we have very little evidence. that that actually works. So I would. argue that you're better off talking.

about your dreams with people who know. you. cuz they can actually help you. understand a little bit more about. what's going on. >> There's a few other items on the table. here. >> Yeah. >> Um I mean this is I don't use this exact. one, but maybe I should, but this has. been an absolute game-changer for me. So. when I travel, when I'm on planes, >> I love a good sleep mask. My wife says. it looks like I'm living in the '50s, >> [laughter]. >> you know, when I'm wearing it, but I. love a good sleep mask. That one in. particular is pretty cool cuz you can. remove the eye cups and you can change. the sizing of where you want it and then.

these can actually you can replace these. with things that heat or cool, but I love that that particular eye. mask. It works. Yeah, it really works. quite well. It's very dark in there. You. definitely can't see up there. Right? And then I've got one more thing that I. think people will find interesting. >> I can't explain how how much of a. game-changer it has been to cover my. eyes when I go to sleep because. gosh, the amount of nights per week. where I don't know, there's like a crack. in the. in the curtains or I don't know, someone. gets up early and.

>> Well, also for you, you're traveling all. the time. So you're in different you're. in planes, you're in different. environments. Also, by the way, every. time you're in a different environment, you have something called the first. night effect. So we see this with every. human on earth. When you sleep in a new. place for the first night, you never. sleep well because it's new sounds, new. sights, you know, new smells, all that. stuff is new. So, what's nice about. having this is when I put one of these. on, I don't have to worry about light, I. don't have to worry about anything. >> Does CO2 play a role? In what way? In. changing sleep. I was thinking if.

ventilation, the amount of oxygen in the. room matters at all because sometimes I. go to hotels and they don't have windows. you can open. >> Right. So, air quality is also a. important thing, not just air quantity, right? And so, number number one thing, if I was to tell people, "Hey, here's an. easy thing to do to to make your sleep. better." Just go out and buy an air. purifier for your bedroom. Think about. it. It's the room you spend more time in. than any other room in the house. You. want that air to be fresh and filtered, right? And not a big It's not expensive. 20 25 bucks, one sits in the corner,

just runs the air cycles all day long. That way you know you have good, clean, fresh air. Um also, I tell people open. the windows once a week. Um it's good to. get fresh air in. Now, the only problem. comes is if you have allergies and the. allergens fly in and there's pollen or. dust or things like that, that can be. somewhat problematic. But generally. speaking, if you don't have enough. oxygen going on, you're definitely not. going to sleep well and your body's. going to wake up. So, if you were in. let's say a oxygen restrictive. environment. So, let's say that you were.

underneath the covers, >> Mhm. >> right? And you've got the thing all all. the way over your head, you're not going. to sleep particularly well and. eventually you're going to get so feel. so restricted that you're going to open. up the covers. >> I want to understand the best possible. sleep position. I do have a bed um in. the room next door that we'll go to and. talk about these pillows. But before we. do that, >> Sure. >> I would like to talk about. relationships, arguing with your. partner, sex, all those kinds of things. What do I need to know. to protect my sleep but also to protect. my relationship? If we start with.

talking about I know you you wrote about. it in your book um The Power of When, you talked about I think it's on page. 100. 101, you talk about arguing with your. partner before bed. >> Yes. Possibly the worst thing you can. possibly do is argue with your partner. before bed. Um, because it's increasing. heart rate, right? What I tell all my. patients to do is if you if you need to. have an important discussion with your. spouse or your partner, do it right. after dinner. Right? So, like in that. 7:00 8:00 range, 7:00 to 8:00 range, so.

that way you have enough space and time. to be able to discuss something and not. hopefully go to bed angry, if you can. avoid it at all possible. It happens. Look, I can't say that I've never gone. to bed angry. I'm sure you can't say. that either. Sometimes things are a. bigger deal, but if you can find better. times to schedule those things, it work. out a lot better. For me, the other. thing that I often times ask a lot of my. patients to do is, for example, if. there's known issues that are going on, like let's say somebody's going through. marital therapy or there's there's an.

issue that they're trying to work on, then maybe that's better off done at. 11:00 in the daytime versus starting to. kind of address some of those issues in. the evening time. I like evening times. to be as stress-free as humanly. possible. Now, if you got something you got to. talk about, you got to talk about it. But generally speaking, I would say the. the less emotionality that you have in. towards the evening, the better, unless. it's joy. >> or happiness. So many couples, they have. these difficult conversations on the. pillow. >> Yeah. >> Including me sometimes. >> Yeah. Well, and you makes sense. Like,

when else do you see that person, right? You haven't seen them all day. You're. you're literally face-to-face. Like, "Hey, I got something I got to talk to. you about. This is kind of the best time. to do it.". >> your sex life as well, doesn't it? >> Absolutely ruins your sex life, unless. you have makeup sex afterwards, and then. it's great. But at the end of the day, it's not a lot of fun to have those. conversations at night. That's again why. I choose to if I'm going to have that. conversation, the best time, honestly, to do it is right after breakfast. >> In my relationship, we find. difficult conversations at nighttime. >> Good. That's probably a smart move, dude. >> You're tired, and it's going to disrupt.

your sleep. >> Right. >> You you can't think straight. You're. probably more emotional. >> And you haven't put all the pieces. together yet of the issues that are. really going on. I can assure you if you. sleep and then have your discussion in. the morning, you'll actually think about. the issue better. >> It's so crazy as I've gotten older I've. realized how much of my mood is. determined by my sleep. Like it's so And. I think it's got worse with age. >> Oh, absolutely it does. >> Because at 25. >> You could blow [ __ ] off. Oh, yeah. Or. you could drink a Monster or a you know,

Red Bull or whatever. Yeah. Sleep. matters. And I think that's what you're. that's that's the button that you're. pushing here. And I think it's important. for your audience to hear that, right? Is look, you're 33 years old and you're. already seeing things changing in your. sleep that have a big effect in your. life. I'm 58 years old, okay? I see the. same thing happening. Everybody Sleep is. so fundamental to the human condition. that it's one of those things that we've. got to really pay attention to. And the. thing is most people don't pay attention. to it cuz they're like, "Well, my body. does it automatically, Michael. Like how.

tough could this be? I walk into that. room in the back of the house, I turn. off the lights, ah, I go to bed. Then I. wake up, something magical happens and I. should be great, right?" Doesn't always. work that way. >> I was reading in your work about the. best time to fall in love. >> Yes. >> It's a strange thing for a. >> Right? >> somebody of your profession to be. thinking about. Was it in this book, was. it? >> Yeah, it was. >> Yeah. >> When you think about it. everything is based on timing, right? So, the timing when your hormones are at. a certain point and you meet that person. and their hormones are at a certain.

point and then all of the sudden there's. a connection. Right? That's hard to do. when you're exhausted, right? Try going. on a first date when you're complete. like when it's the worst, right? You. know you're not giving a good impression. of yourself. You know that you're not. giving a good impression of that person. because your mind is not going where it. needs to be. So, there's timing involved. and understanding your chronotype and. that person's chronotype really leads. you in that positive direction. And I.

would argue that it's pretty easy to. fall in love with that time. >> Okay, so in your book um Power of When. >> Yes. >> on page 90. uh four, you say dolphins' best mood is. in the afternoon to evening. So, uh the. best time for them to fall in love is. 8:00 p.m. >> Yep. >> Lions, 7:00 a.m. >> Right, cuz remember they're early. morning people. They're exhausted at the. end. >> Damn. So, they should be going on. morning dates. >> Yes. >> Bears, 4:00 p.m. And the wolf like me. >> Yes. >> 11:00 p.m. That tracks. >> Yeah. I get it. >> So, should I be doing my you know, I'm.

Okay, I'm in a relationship. I'm. about to be married. >> Yes. >> But um. >> I heard you got engaged. Congratulations. >> so much. >> Yeah. >> But I should be doing my dates later. It. kind of tracks. That's kind of when I. did them. >> Well, look at your whole schedule, dude. You don't do a thing before 11:00. >> That's true. >> Right? I think you're exactly like I am. >> Shall we go and look at the best. possible sleep position? >> Yeah, let's check it out. And we'll talk. about pillows, too. >> Okay, so I'll bring all the pillows with. me. Okay, great. Okay, so we're going to. go into the next room where there's a. bed, and you're going to tell me what. can you tell me when we look at the bed? How can you help? >> So, there's a couple of different.

things. So, number one, I'm going to. look at your starting sleep position, and I'm going to give you some feedback. about that. Then we're going to fit you. for the right kind of pillow for you, and then there's some cool technology in. there that I want to show you as well. that can help keep you cool all night. long. >> And do we need to take this with us? >> Yes, take the all right. >> that one. And then how many pillows are. there? >> I think there's five. >> There's five different pillows. Okay, great. Let's go. >> all do different things. >> Okay. Okay, so we're now downstairs in a. bedroom we have in the house. I have. lots of pillows here. >> Quite a few. >> And there's a bunch of questions I have.

for you. The first is. pillows, do they matter? Is there a. perfect one? Is it different for every. individual? Sleeping position, is there. a perfect sleeping position? >> There is. >> And the third one is about temperature. >> You got it. Let's go. >> So, I just grab whatever pillow is in the. bed wherever I travel. >> Terrible idea. >> Really? >> Terrible idea. So, first of all, a lot. of people need to understand that a. pillow is a bed for your head, right? And so, the goal here is to keep your. nose in line with your sternum, which is. sort of the center part of your chest, right? And but you don't want it facing.

down and you don't want it facing up. You want it to be completely in the. center like that. And so if you have a. pillow that tilts your head to the one. way or tilts your head to the other, it. causes a pain signal from the strain of. the musculature that goes to your brain. and you don't get into deep sleep. So. you really want to make sure that you've. got a good pillow, otherwise you end up. with a crick in your neck, you don't get. good deep sleep, becomes problematic. >> Okay. >> Right? So the big question is, how do. you pick a pillow, right? So first. question you want to ask yourself is. squishy or firm, right? So let's take a.

look at our tower of pillows here. So for you, let's let's take a look. So. this is a pretty firm one. This is a. basically a foam-based hunk of foam. pillow, right? Versus this one, which is. sort of the normal kind of pillow, much. more squishy. So which are you? Are. squishy or a firm? >> That one. >> Okay, perfect. So you're more on the. squishy, which means you like to. manipulate the pillow. You don't want it. to have a huge form factor where your. like head is on a block of cheese, right? Got it. So perfect. So let's move. this foam pillow out of the way.

The second thing you want to look at. from the pillow is. when the fabric comes together here, it. forms what's called a knife's edge. So. it's where the two pieces of fabric. meet. Now, why is that important? Because when you have your head on a. pillow like this and the knife's edge is. down here, you're not getting as much. support underneath your neck here, right? So in order to fix that, we have. something called a gusset. So a gusset. is this piece of fabric that comes along. here. So you notice these two pieces of. fabric don't meet. There's a thickness.

here. So when you were to sleep on it, it actually catches you all the way. down. So let's say you would be like. this, you would it gives you support all. the way down. Now, you don't like the. foam of it all, but you do like the the. gusset, right? >> Mhm. >> Here's one that's got the gusset without. the foam. So it's squishy and has the. gusset. So if you were going to use this. >> Mhm, that's good. >> So now we've been able to fit you for. the pillow. Now, the next question we. have, uh well, the last one is there's. some special types of pillows, actually. This one has got a cutout. So, you.

notice how that's got like a moon here? It fits perfectly here. And notice, right? This is This is my personal. pillow. >> Oh, okay. I [laughter] can. >> So, >> Yeah, after shift. [snorts]. >> I know, sorry. Um and so, you can see it. really comes all the way down to your. neck and it gives you support all the. way from the base of your neck all the. way up through. And that's one of the. reasons that I like it cuz I can cut it. out and put it right there on me. >> For the average person, if if they had. to pick one pillow without you knowing. anything about them, which pillow would. you pick of these six? >> So, of all of these six Well, if I had.

my choice, I'd pick this one because. this is my favorite. By the way, there's. also another feature of this that I. think is important to know that people. should notice is it's got a zipper. Which means I can change the stuffing. and I can pull it out or put it in. So, I can change the height of my pillow. >> And what stuffing is that? >> This is actually a shredded latex. >> Okay. >> Which I really like to sleep on. >> So, what's this pillow called? >> So, this is by a company called Coop. Um and um I like it because of the. change in the in the shape as well as.

the stuffing and the zipper on the side. It really makes it kind of what I would. argue to be probably the best pillow out. there. >> And what's the worst pillow? >> The worst pillow that we've got here, this one. So, almost no support, right? It's super. squishy. >> Yeah. >> Right? We don't We don't We have the. knife's edge here. There's not much to. it. Also, by the way, it feels like this. is made with polyester, which is a heat. trapper. Now, let's lie you down on the. bed, get you in your starting sleep. position, and then I'm going to show you. exactly where the pillow should go and. what pillow should be for you. So, if. you can, lie down for me. Now, what is.

your starting sleep position? Are you a. back sleeper? Are you a side sleeper? Are you a stomach sleeper? >> I start on my stomach and I roll to my. right. >> Got it. Okay, perfect. Go ahead and get. on your stomach for me. >> way, how weird is that? >> Roughly 75% of sleepers are side. sleepers, either right or left. So, you're definitely not don't fall into. that category. Another 20% are back. sleepers. You're in the like 5% category. of stomach sleepers. The reason it's the. worst position is when you're lying on. your stomach right in the pillow is.

here, you're pushing on your back here. and it causes what's called a splay, which is extra pressure on your lower. back and that can give you low back pain. over time. >> I only do it for the first like 10. minutes. >> And then you rotate? >> And then I rotate onto my side. >> Which side, right or left? >> My right, this side. >> Perfect. So, in all actuality, you. actually want to be on your left side. because when you lie on your right side, you're actually all of your organs push. down onto your stomach and it can leak. some of those gastric juices and you end. up with something called. gastroesophageal reflux disease. So, the. way I teach people is right is wrong.

So, you don't sleep on your right side, you sleep on your left side if you can. If you can. But let's fit you anyway. Let's go ahead and get you down on your. what would be your right side and let's. see how you do. Lie down. >> How I normally lie down? >> Yeah. >> Okay, this is how I lie down when I. first get in bed for the first time. >> I can't wait to see it. >> I'm like this. I'm usually kind of out. the way and I just lay like this for a. while. >> Okay, and you have no pillow. >> No pillow. >> Perfect. And then when you rotate to get. to your side, >> Yeah. >> show me that. >> I sleep like this on my.

on my right side. >> Mhm. >> Like roughly like this. >> So, what you'll notice is your shoulder. is now up into this part here, so it's. still being supported. Your head is. fine. And what you'll notice is. his head is in line with his sternum, right? His nose is in line there. It's. not falling too far, it's not. overextended. >> What's my sternum? >> Your sternum is the direct center of. your chest. It's the mid like your. breastplate is what you would call it, right? Right, sternum in the center. So, you want your nose to be in line with. that, which it basically is. You and. when I look at your head, your head is. not tilted to one side or another, so I.

know there's no more neck strain. So, that would be the perfect pillow for. you. But that happens to be my pillow, so I'm not going to give it to you, but. I might get you one if you're nice to. me. >> [laughter]. >> Thank you. What about these other. pillows? What's so the bad one was which. one? >> The bad one was this one. So, now go. ahead and put yourself on that one. >> Yeah, [clears throat] I'm going too far. down. >> Right. And you're not even trying. Like. you don't even have to push your head. that far and and you can see and your. And look, where do you put your arm? Your arm's not supported. Like it's. becomes Like people don't realize it, but pillows matter. What I try to tell.

people is I used to be a runner and when. you're a runner, like equipment matters. Like your shoes matter, your music. matters, your your dry-fit wear matters. The same holds true with sleep. If you. don't have good pillow, good mattress, good sheets, you don't have the right. equipment, you're not going to get good. sleep. >> That is a terrible pillow. >> I'm telling you. >> really bad pillow. >> Okay. >> So, sleeping on my left side is the. correct side. >> With a good pillow. >> With a good pillow. >> But now let's talk about temperature. >> Yeah. >> So, while you're lying here, you may.

have noticed that there's different. temperature on either side of the bed. So, if you feel here, >> Oh, it's warm. >> It is. That's correct. So, when you're lying. there, your body will naturally become. more warm. So, remember how we were. talking that sleep follows the core body. temperature cycle, right? And so, as. your core body temperature drops, you. want your environment to drop with it. because if it doesn't and the. environment is too hot, you can't fall. asleep. So, this is a product, it's.

called an Orion sleep system and it's a. topper that's you're lying on top of, has a thin tube that goes through it. You can't feel the tube. Should feel. cool over there and warm over here. >> Mhm. >> It's cold here, it's warm here. >> Exactly. And we And you can rotate it. however you want. But what's so. fascinating about this is you can. actually set it so that it follows your. circadian rhythm and it actually can. help you stay asleep. The only thing. that you as a consumer can manipulate in. your sleep, like you can't write a. pharmaceutical right prescription, you. can't get a CPAP machine, but what you.

can do is control the temperature. So, you might say to yourself, "When would I want to control the. temperature for my sleep?" Well, if you. were female and you were 45 years old. and you were going through menopause, you really want to control the. temperature because hot flashes might. wake you up in the middle of the night. Those types of things become very, very. important. >> And how much does this cost? >> So, this runs about a little over 2,000. US. Um the nearest competitor is. significantly more expensive, almost a. third more expensive. >> Are you affiliated with them in any way? >> I am affiliated with these guys. I am.

their chief sleep officer. >> Oh, nice. Didn't know that was your job. title. >> I know, I didn't know that. I made up. the job title myself. Thank you very. much. >> Okay. Is there anything else I should. know about the broader room that is. pertinent? >> So, when I talk about broader room. aspects, I think of the five senses. So, sight, sound, touch, taste, and smell, right? So, sight is light, right? So, clearly you want the lights down as. we're starting to get towards bed. Maybe. having a dimmer switch or something like. that is a great thing to slowly start to. do that or cut the overhead lights and.

just have the bedside table lamps about. 30 minutes before beds. Again, setting. the tone. The next one would be sound. So, it's always better to be quiet, but. at the end of the day, sometimes you can. have that and sometimes you can't. It's. really about the emotionality that you. attach to the sound itself. If you get. annoyed by something, it's just going to. get worse and worse. But if you can. think in your head, "Hey, this isn't so. annoying anymore." it becomes less. problematic. But to be clear, certain. volume sounds and certain decibel levels. are going to wake you up. And so, you.

really it's hard to sleep next to a big. highway, right? So, you want to have as. much sound buffering as you possibly. can. So, we did sight, we did sound, let's do touch. Touch is temperature, right? We talked about that. You want. the bedroom to be cool. If you can, get. the get the air conditioning on. But. let's say you've got the air. conditioning on, but it's super hot. summer and you're not fortunate enough. to have an Ooler sitting underneath your. sheets. What do you do? Go out and buy a. plastic bottle of water, two of them, stick them in the freezer. Then put them.

into socks and then put them on your. sides, okay? So, frozen water bottle. inside a pair of inside a sock that sits. on your side. It's like a mini air. conditioner underneath the covers. It. works like a charm. I use this when I. travel because a lot of times, you know, the room you can't necessarily change. the thermostat or things like that, and. it's a great way to be able to do that. kind of stuff. Then the final one is. smell. So, people always ask me, "Does. aromatherapy really work?" Believe it or. not, there are at least two. scientifically rigorous studies that.

show that aromatherapy can actually be. helpful for you. But, I want to be. clear, candles are not the way to do. aromatherapy. Fire and sleep do not mix, okay? But, a diffuser, I'm fine with, or. a little sachet or a pillow mist, all of. those can be quite helpful, and you just. put them you spray it on your pillow, or. you have it right next to your pillow, and as you breathe in the aroma, two. aromas have been shown to be helpful for. sleep. One is lavender, surprise, surprise. The other is called. ylang-ylang. Um that's one that's actually got some. data on it, and I actually think I saw a.

study on vanilla. >> And should I be sleeping naked? >> Such a good question. So, here's what. I'll tell you is you thermoregulate. better with less clothing on. So, less. barriers allow your body to do exactly. what it should do. So, I would argue you. definitely could sleep naked, and I I. think there's an argument for sleeping. naked will allow you to sleep better and. thermoregulate better. However, be. careful because if you have animals in. the bed and you're sleeping naked, what. looks like a chew toy to them might be. important for you.

>> You speaking from experience? >> I'm just letting you know there's. problems out there. I'm not saying that. I had one of those problems myself. >> [laughter]. >> Okay. I think I think we've covered it, right? >> Last one. Socks. >> Oh, socks. >> Everybody wants to know, should I wear. socks to bed? So, here's what's. interesting is you dissipate heat faster. wearing with. unsocked foot cuz there's no hair on the. bottom of your feet. You ever notice. when you're hot at night and you stick. your foot out from under the covers, you. instantly cool down and everything's. okay? So, what I do for some of my.

patients who have thermoregulation. issues is I have them start with socks. but no clothes, and then they can remove. their socks afterwards as they start to. get too warm. >> Okay. Let's go back upstairs and finish. this conversation. Important question, Dr. Breus. So, I. want to go back upstairs. Thank you so. much for that. Super, super useful. >> Sure. >> Dr. Michael Breus, we have a closing. tradition on this podcast where the last. guest leaves a question for the next. guest, not knowing who they're leaving. it for. >> Oh, I didn't know this. This is awesome. >> And the question that's been left for. you is, if you could have the power to.

change one thing in the US healthcare. system, what would it be and why? >> What I would like to see happen? Well, there's two things. One is a wish and. one is, I think, a possible reality. So, the possible reality is, I'd like to see. everybody in the United States get. tested for sleep apnea. It's so. underdiagnosed. There's so many people. that are suffering from it. You saw the. statistics. I mean, it's it's an. epidemic. So, if I could have one thing. that happens in the US healthcare. system, it would be that.

somehow or another, somebody at the. powers that be say, "Hey, you know what? We need to test everybody for sleep. disorders, specifically sleep apnea." I. think that would be a great big wish. that I would have. The second wish, which I don't know which would ever. happen, but I'm going to take my second. wish anyway, even though you didn't. offer it, is I want everybody to get a. great night's sleep. But I want it to. all be on the same night. I want everybody in the world to get a. really good night's sleep on the Can you. imagine what would happen the next day?

>> Hm. >> What if What if What if people actually. found peace in the warring nations. because they actually got a good night's. sleep? What do you think innovations. would happen with if we get some of the. smartest people in the world to just get. a good night's sleep? Like, what about. charities? What about philanthropy? Like, every single thing that you do, you do better with a good night's sleep. Wouldn't it be cool if everybody got one. just for one night and see what happens? >> Nine months later, there'd be a lot of. kids. >> There would be a lot of kids born for.

sure. >> [laughter]. >> That's so beautiful. Michael, thank you. so much for the work that you do. It's. so incredibly important because as the. numbers and the stats have shown, people. are struggling increasingly in the world. that we live but through lifestyle. factors and the way that we work and all. these other factors we talked about with. this more than anything and for so many. people it's the cause of. so much frustration. It is the thing. furthest up streams from a lot of the. problems that they struggle with in. relationships, in their work, in their. sex life and everything in between. So, having great educators out in the world. that help to demystify this black box is.

so critical and you're one of the very, very best I've ever met and in part. because you're so unbelievably engaging, you're a great storyteller. You've you've been in the field doing. this with patients of wide varieties but. also you bring that psychology element. which is of quite rare to people that. talk about the clinical side of sleep. You have several great resources if. people want to continue to um. learn more. I would highly recommend um. people, if you've gotten to this point. in the conversation, I would highly. recommend going over to your YouTube. channel now and watching some of your.

top videos cuz I found them to be. fascinating and I learned so much more. We weren't We weren't able to go through. everything today but if [laughter]. there's specific things like waking up. in the middle of the night, um your. videos about that have six or seven. million views over on your channel and. they're very, very focused on that. subject. So, if there's specific things. that you felt weren't covered in this. conversation, right now go over to. Michael's channel. Um it'll be linked. below and um watch more there. But also, if you're a reader and you love to read. and that's your thing, which I know is. great for sleep, >> [laughter]. >> two great books here in front of me, The. Power of When, Discover Your Chronotype.

and the Best Time to Eat, Lunch, Ask for. a Raise, Have Sex, Write a Novel, Take. Your Meds and More. And also, this book here, Sleep, Drink, Breathe which talks broadly about the. simple daily habits for profound. long-term health. Michael, thank you. >> Thank you. This has been so much fun. I. wasn't exactly sure what to expect, but. it was lovely. I really enjoyed it. Everybody here is fantastic, and just. want to wish everybody sweet dreams. >> YouTube have this new crazy algorithm. where they know exactly what video you.

would like to watch next based on AI and. all of your viewing behavior. And the. algorithm says that this video is the. perfect video for you. It's different. for everybody looking right now. Check. this video out, I bet you you might love. it.