Simon Sinek: The Advice Young People NEED To Hear | E176

the single greatest lesson i ever. learned in my career that profoundly. changed the course of my life was. multiple time best selling author third. most watched ted talk of all time the. return of simon sinek thank you very. much plus 30 40 years we've doubled down. at how do i find love how do i find. happiness we've doubled down on. selfishness but now in a complicated. messy world we haven't been practicing. and developing the skills of taking care. of each other and that's what we need. now more than ever do you ever give up. on someone um. [Music]. i have a fear i've never expressed this.

openly gen z are the least resilient. generation they're really good at. presenting a confidence. that they don't have this young. generation seems less capable to deal. with stress than previous generations. that is true going from relationship to. relationship to relationship from job to. job to job there's no stigma to quitting. flash forward five years and what's. going to happen is an employer is going. to look at them be like. i can't take the risk everything we're. talking about today comes right back to. those human skills that we are lacking.

how to listen how to give and receive. feedback how to have a difficult. conversation and the thing we have to. deal with more than anything is fear. fear that is the underlying thing why we. don't have honest conversations. let me give you some honesty then. what is the greatest fear you have about. how you're currently living your life i. was very insecure about admitting that. i was crying. you know as we were talking about it. that was that was hard. without further ado i'm stephen bartlett.

and this is the diary of a ceo i hope. nobody's listening but if you are then. please keep this to yourself. [Music]. simon good to see you again yeah good to. be here um i i have to thank you first. and foremost and i many reasons you know. i'm a huge fan of all your work but the. conversation we had when we're over in. l.a was received so unbelievably well by. the listeners on this podcast it did. millions and millions and millions of. downloads in such a short space of time.

that i had to argue to get you to come. back again when you're here in the uk so. well it's nice to be back and it's nice. to do it on your home turf yeah. literally in my home literally in your. home um. there's so many things i want to talk to. you about but one of the things that i. was curious about because i've been. thinking a lot about this in my life is. this idea of our whys evolving. what is your why and has it evolved over. the last decade at all. uh so my why. [Music]. is to inspire people to do the things.

that inspire them. so together each of us can change our. world for the better and it's why i wake. up every morning every day it is the. greatest compliment someone can pay me. when they say to me that was inspiring. or you were inspiring like that feeds me. you know um and the interesting thing. about hawaii is because it is not it is. objective. a y is the sum total of how we were. raised. it's born out of the patterns and the. lessons we learned from our parents from.

our teachers when we're young and our. why is fully formed by the time we're in. our mid to late teens and you only have. one wife for the rest of your life it. doesn't change. you ha you are who you are based on how. you were raised now you may not be. acting. as your true self you know people say. that to us all the time you know it's. like i don't know who you are anymore. you know but when you are at your. natural best you're wise front and. center but we're not always acting at. our natural best and sometimes we make. decisions out of selfishness we shake we. take the job that pays us that offers us. the most money and turn down the one to.

work for somebody who would probably be. a better mentor you know we do these. things all the time and so. you know can you tweak the words of your. why of course you know but that's that's. semantics um can we find better ways to. to bring a why to life yes that's the. evolution but the why itself is fixed. when you talk about the why being. influenced by the things that happened. in our life our experiences our. upbringing. does that mean that our trauma can. influence our wife for better or for. worse always for better always for.

better yeah a why is always positive. um. uh and i'll give you a real life example. of somebody's why discovery that i did. and you know one of the things i do when. i do somebody's my discovery i asked. them about you know happy experiences. when they were kids and this person said. i didn't have a very happy childhood i. had a really bad childhood. and i said okay so tell me tell me a bad. memory then you know. and. she talked about a lot of abuse in the. household and a very abusive alcoholic. father who would beat.

her mother and the kids. and she told a story of a repeated. pattern of when the father would be. drunk and come looking for the kids that. she'd be hiding. in the cupboard. protecting her brother with her arms. wrapped around him so to shield her. brother. and she goes through this whole story. and at the end. i pointed out to her that she's a. protector. that in the in these traumatic. experiences it was her instinct. to to protect her baby brother and she's.

lived her life if you look at all of the. times that she's really thrived and. where she's her her best self she's. usually in a in a position of protection. of other of other people and that's. where she finds joy in taking care of. other people and so the the experiences. mold us into who we are um and the. effects. you know the impact will be positive. regardless of where it comes from so. yeah i mean. a horrible childhood that made her a. wonderful human being. i was going to use me as an example.

there to try and rebuttal that somewhat. but i remember having a very similar. conversation with a very good friend of. mine a week ago. upstairs who talked to me about their. childhood there they've talked about. this publicly as well so i'm not letting. the cat out of the bag but their their. father used to beat their mother up. really really severely and she was. telling me literally just a few days ago. upstairs. that she her memories of trying to hold. on to her dad's arm as it swung for her. mother when she was five years old and. when you look at the pattern of what.

those early experiences have caused. and a few other experiences she's. obsessed with. with with helping others. and she's you know building these. amazing businesses she's unbelievably. successful it's like frighteningly. successful at a very very young age. however. that. forcing her to help others. has meant that she's compromised. sometimes helping herself. and. of everyone i know in my life. she is the most successful woman i know.

but she's also the woman that is most. unsuccessful in all of the personal. aspects relationships boyfriend. uh mental health all of these things. so when we say you know i understand the. positive side of it but. the negative side of it seems to be. um of this unbelievable i guess why. she's got seems to just honestly for me. not be worth it. [Music]. because this is not this is not someone. that is that would say they're happy. this is someone that is in therapy and. is every day.

in tears and upset while serving the. world in an unbelievable way. so is that a positive is that a positive. why so. so. the. the rub about the why you know a y is. basically the thing we give to the world. it's the value we have in other people's. lives her friends would say of her that. she is our protector. um you know uh. that is the role we fill in their lives. which is why they love us because we're. br we're giving them our why it is our.

value the rub. the most difficult thing about the why. to understand is the the thing that we. give to to the world is also the thing. that we need the most. it's it's always balanced. and so i would argue that. you know. she. it's not that she's unable to take care. of herself. it's that she needs to find friends. colleagues whatever it is who are. committed to taking care of her. and that's where the change happens.

and. you know. we were talking about this you know. before the show started you know there's. an entire section of the bookshop called. self-help and there's no section in the. bookshop called help others. and i believe what we need is the help. of this industry. um i'll tell you uh something uh. something that happened to me a friend. of mine was going through a really. rough patch in her life um her marriage. was. struggling her career was struggling she. was unhappy like just. none of the boxes were getting checked. you know. and she knows what i do i mean we've.

been friends for forever and she asked a. favor can you help me. you know of course of course i said and. every week we had a standing. 90-minute meeting. where she'd come over and she would tell. me what's going on. and i would give her some advice and i'd. point out some patterns and she'd feel. fantastic she would leave on a high and. she'd feel amazing for like two days and. then it'll go right back again and she'd. come back the following week and this. went on for months two days three days. and then back down again right.

and then it occurred to me like i. remember my own work. in leaders eat last i talk about. alcoholics anonymous where they have 12. steps to help an alcoholic beat this. disease. and alcoholics anonymous knows. that if you master 11 of the 12 steps. you're going to probably slide back and. succumb to the disease but if you can. master the 12th step as well. you will more likely beat the disease. the 12th step is to help another. alcoholic. it's service. and so i remembered my own work and i.

decided to do a little i decided to. change things up right and so i said to. her look. i love that you come and see me every. week and i love helping you every week. but you know i struggle with things too. and i don't have anybody to talk to. would you be willing to help me maybe we. can split the time and she said of. course yes and what started to happen is. every week we got together and i was. genuine i wasn't faking it like i would. unload and tell her what i was going. through and what i was struggling with. and it ended up that we wouldn't split. the time it ended up that she would. spend 90 minutes talking about my stuff.

right and she was the advice giver and. she was the one looking for the patterns. and she would leave on a high and that. high would stay until the following week. it was only when we reversed. the scenario where that she was. had the opportunity to take care of. someone she loved that she was able to. find the solutions to her own challenges. and i'm a great believer that that we. have to remember we're social animals. we need each other and this is the great. paradox of being human at every moment. of every day we are both individuals and. members of groups.

you know and there's a there's a there's. a debate do you take care of yourself. first or do you take care of others. first and there's a whole school of. thought that says you have to take care. of yourself first because if you're not. healthy you can't take care of others. and there's a whole school of thought. that says no you have to take care of. others first so that when you're in need. they'll be there for you and the answer. is you're both right and you're both. wrong it's a paradox it's a struggle and. every day we're faced with sometimes big. but often small choices. do i prioritize myself at the sacrifice. of the group or do i prioritize the. group at the sacrifice of myself. and you know folks like um.

uh uh. maslov like maslow's hierarchy of needs. maslow made him a huge mistake in that. hierarchy which is. his his baseline our basic need is food. and shelter right. i've never heard of anyone dying by. suicide because they were hungry i've. heard of people dying by suicide because. they were lonely. right and yet social relationships in in. maya's law's hierarchy is number three. but that kind of that doesn't sound. right. it seems like there's something more. important to human beings than just food.

and shelter and then the top of the peak. is self-actualization which sounds the. most selfish thing in the world like i. am so self-actualized that i would. literally sit on top of a pyramid and. look down at all of you unactualized. people because that's my goal to be. self-actualized. he's half right the mistake that maslov. made he's the only thought of us as. individuals. and as individuals yes i need food and. shelter first but as a member of a group. i need friends and i need love. and self-actualization is not the thing. i'm actually in pursuit of as a member.

of a group it's shared actualization. that i'm looking for. and unfortunately for various reasons. which we don't have to go down that. rabbit hole. the past 30 40 years. especially in the west we have doubled. down on on individualism we have doubled. down on. my own career we've doubled down at how. do i find love how do i find happiness. we've doubled down on selfishness. and it worked for a while it worked when. the economy was really good like in the. 80s and 90s and 2000s so awesome.

selfishness was great because it worked. but now in a complicated messy world. where the economy isn't great and. everything's not roses. all that self-interest is now. not working except we haven't been. practicing and developing the school. skills of taking care of each other. and that's what we need now more than. ever. and so. i don't know your friend and so i can't. make any i'm not i can't make any. conclusions. but we are we are animals in balance. right and nature.

abhors a vacuum. and so whenever i hear about these. things my question is always about the. balance so for example every single good. thing that happens in our lives. everything comes at a cost. there's nothing for free somebody with. an incredible career has no relationship. with their kids right everything comes. at a cost but at the same time. everything we struggle with has. opportunity and lesson that goes with it. it's always balanced. right and so. whenever anybody tells me this great. thing i was like yeah but at what cost. and was the cost worth it sometimes the.

answer is yes and sometimes the answer. is no and when something horrible. happens in someone's life or something. goes sideways i always ask but what did. you learn. you know i mean my career and yours is. the same you know. the whole the golden circle and the. concept of why came out of. me losing my passion and hating work. i went through depression i never want. to go through that again but i'm really. glad it happened. because it. look what it's it's given me an entirely. new life view. and i think of strengths and weaknesses.

the same way you know i think it's. hilarious when people say what are your. strengths and what are your weaknesses. well it depends. life is balanced and it's always. contextual and everything that we have. that's a strength has liability attached. and every weakness we have has strength. that's attached. i can imagine because of the books. you've written and the you know the. channels you have and the content you. produce that a lot of people come to you. um on a personal level friends family to. help solve some of the problems that. they're having in their lives i i find. myself in somewhat of a similar position.

maybe they're not coming to me maybe i'm. inserting myself into the problem to try. and solve it because that's my nature. but do you do you ever do you ever give. up on someone. something i've thought about and i'm i'm. reflecting on my friend a little bit. here yeah and friends i've had from my. childhood who i've i've i remember. offering a guy. i was like if you can just do one month. working in. subway where he was working i'll pay for. your rent so you can move out of that. city yeah and go get a job he didn't do. the one month in subway yeah and at one.

point there's part of me he's like you. know everyone's solvable the optimism. the optimistic in me and the other part. of me goes at some point you have to. give up on people. um so the single greatest lesson i ever. learned in my career that profoundly. changed the course of my life and it. comes right before. the the realization and the articulation. of why. i learned. how to ask for help and i learned how to. accept it when i was offered. okay.

and i think that it's not about giving. up on someone it's that it's a it's that. it's a. that helping someone is a team sport. success is a team sport and if you find. that you're the only player in in their. life. when they should be the primary player. you can only be you can only do the. assists you'll never be the one making. the baskets that's their job. right. but if they won't take the pass. then at some point you stop throwing the. ball. and um. it's not about giving up on people. it's it's that they have it's about.

accountability to take responsibility. for oneself and and giving up on. somebody is don't ever call me again you. don't take my advice this is over. right that's giving up on someone. for i think the other way to do it is. like listen. i i cannot help you if you cannot be. involved to help yourself. and i will want to sit down with them. and i will want to i won't criticize and. be like you're not doing this you have. to follow my advice you have to do this. you got to go work at subway for the.

week like that that's not what i want to. sit down and understand what the. blockage is there's something else. that's the blockage that i can get to. hopefully but at the end of the day i. will say to them point blank listen. if you're not going to be involved in. this then there's no point to me to be. involved you know you have to. like this is a team and i'm the only. player here. so i will always be here. and when you are ready maybe it's just. bad timing i don't know what else is. going on in your life and maybe this is. not the right time or maybe i'm a bad.

fit. but when you are ready i will still be. here no matter what but you have to call. me. there's no more there's no more me. throwing you the ball like you're gonna. have to call me and then they call you. and then sometimes you do sometimes they. don't sometimes they do sometimes they. don't in my case they call me and and. then they say it's time i'm willing to. accept the help and then the same cycle. happens over and over again and you go. you go you know five years of them. calling you then you then then then it's. then they're lying. but they don't think they're lying they.

always think this time is going to be. different i'm going to do it on monday. i mean. like i said i want to know what else is. the blockage you you when there's that. kind of repeated pattern. then there's something else and i think. i think you know our mistake in those. situations is repeating our pattern. which is okay i'm going to give you the. same advice i'm going to do the same. thing you're going to do the same thing. i'm going to tell you the same thing i'm. going to give up on you i'm going to go. like. we're we're actually repeating a pattern. as well and so. you know we know this as entrepreneurs. which is you got to try something. completely completely different.

um and i think you know this goes back. to what we were saying a moment ago you. know which is we we are we are not. teaching the skills of how to help. others and part of one of the biggest. skills of learning to help others is. learning how to listen. and most of us are really crap at. listening. right we confuse um listening with. hearing the words that were spoken. you know you're sitting watching tv. and you know someone you love is trying. to tell you something and you're like. uh-huh uh-huh and you're still watching. you're not even listening to me and we.

turn around and repeat all the words. back to them that's not listening that's. hearing the words that were spoken to. you. you listening is when the other person. feels heard. right. and where you are in pursuit of meaning. not the word spoken you're not so. literal right. and. i think in the cases of of like your. friend. the the. is to go from an advice giving mode and. men suffer from this more than women. which is we our intention is to fix. everything right all we want to do is. fix fix fix fix we see the problem.

here's the solution but sometimes that's. not what people need people need to feel. seen and heard and understood and maybe. just maybe you're going too quickly to. fix and he doesn't feel seen or heard or. understood yet and in this particular. situation. and again i don't know the person but um. i would i would go to an extreme. listening you know give the kid the. opportunity to empty his bucket like and. there's only three terms you're going to. use in the conversation go on tell me. more what else.

because there's it sounds like there's. it's whatever you think the thing is. you're fixing it's probably something. entirely different and until you can get. to that um you're going to give up them. somebody who maybe. um it's just that we had the wrong. strategy. it wasn't until these examples surfaced. in my life where i had friends asking me. for this kind of help that i started to. consider that maybe mindset itself is a. privilege one that if you don't. acknowledge and understand you'll end up. giving advice from a very privileged. place you know you know i might say well.

just work harder or just yeah just cheer. up yeah these kinds of things come from. like a a misunderstanding that my brain. is fortunate enough to to think and be a. certain way yeah um but i've never heard. someone people talk enough about this. idea that our mindset in and of itself. is a privilege and that you know. that's interesting that mindset is a. privilege. is that true if we think about the early. upbringing in childhood then yeah so. that was maybe you know some people have. monetary privilege from their childhood.

one thing that your parents or your. experiences might have given you a real. psychological privilege. so let me just think out loud for a. second right let's try let me try and. unpack that. you know. there are. many stories of people. who. when the odds were against them whether. they came from extreme poverty or abuse. rose up to have successful and happy. lives. right and when. when we read about them or talk to them.

or meet them or hear interviews from. them. they talk about mindset they talk about. my mother taught you usually the mother. like my mother taught me that to never. be a victim. my mother taught me that i was capable. of anything and so they had a mindset. they you know where some people have a. victim mindset and then they. that's that's the life they continue to. live. some people have a might a different. mindset and it can lift them out of what. we would consider unprivileged. circumstances right so. you know it makes me question then is.

mindset a privilege and. we both know people that have every. privilege afforded to them you know. every one of them. and yet for whatever reason. their mindset is the wrong one and they. can squander all of that opportunity. all of those advantages that they've. been afforded you know. um. and make a mess so i i question whether. mindset is a privilege there are a lot. of privileges in in in life. mindset i think is one of the ones that.

is is there for the taking. i. i think about so i was 18 years old. dropped out of university shoplifting. food to feed myself and in that moment i. was entirely convinced that i was going. to be a millionaire what did i do. what did i what did i actively do you. just you're just counting your own point. that mindset is not a privilege no i'm. saying because i think that that i i. have the privilege that that mindset was. given to me by my experiences and maybe. by my biology. i'm wondering why in that situation if. you'd put me and my best friend that i.

talked about with the subway example in. the same situation one of us would have. catastrophized and me i just saw it as. this wonderful stepping stone to the. point that i went around my house. videoing my dispatch videoing my dire. situation opening the fridge there's. nothing in it. my first page of my diary on facebook. knows which i kept says i'm keeping this. diary because the tv production company. have asked me to. i liked my own diary because i and i. look back and go this kid was sure yeah. that he was getting out of here well i i. mean i played tricks and games with. myself as well.

you know um. i mean i remember i mean some of them. are hilarious but i i did the same thing. you know and and i said i i go back to. the concept of why which is which is. it's the experiences we had when we were. young that formed us into who we are it. wasn't the shoplifting alone it was your. parents it was your friends it was your. teachers like is that a privilege. i mean at what point. everybody has a y and everybody's why is. affirmative. you know. and and so.

like i told you about the abuse story. you know. something really positive and someone. really positive came out of that trauma. um. so. you know. i'm struggling to call you use the word. privilege to mindset. because what you're saying is anyone. that anyone who's. had any kind of luck. or turnaround. or. has privilege where anyone who hasn't.

and has failed it's because of their. lack of privilege like there's too many. other factors. involved in that in those in those. comparisons. to to to oversimplify it and call it. privilege i'm sure there are privileged. components sometimes involved in that. for sure but. you know when we're if we're. strictly talking about mindset i i i. i think it's uh. it's. i'm not sure i don't think so it doesn't.

because. the control of our minds. is the one thing that we own. it's the one thing that. is not. like we we can change the way we view. ourselves and how we treat others um. and i think what's important. and. it's a hard conversation right i think. one thing that's important is. i think we have to have love in our. lives it's from someone. you know like even people who like i.

have a friend who came from a very. abusive household. um he he found his grandmother stabbed. to death and the knife was so deep that. she was attached to the bed like that's. how bad it was right. um and yet he had a coach who believed. in him. and so. i think i think. to have someone believe in us. to have one person see a spark in us. helps us recognize that it helps us see. the spark in ourselves.

you know uh. it just i think it takes one with only. one person whether it's a friend or a. coach or a parent. a boss sometimes you know who says who. takes a liking to us and almost all of. us. almost all of us. can remember one person in our lives. where it's a coach or a teacher who took. us under their wing and saw something. that we didn't see. uh and every single successful person on. the planet has that person. but i think most of us do most of us. have somebody who. who saw something in us and we are who. we are in part because of that person.

having someone in our lives um kind of. links back to something you were talking. about earlier about trying to be less. individualistic in our approach to our. lives and our careers lots of your work. and i was on your video subscription. library and lots of your work has that. as a through line about connection and. people and teams and yeah um. in the in the backdrop of the remote. working world we're living in. um. i guess my first question would be how. do you think that this postcovid world. has been impacted in terms of connection.

community teams. and that unity that. should be on the bottom level of our. maslowy and hierarchy of needs well i. mean. obviously it took a step back. you know um. though there are again i always think of. things in terms of balance right and. cost so it's not good or bad it's both. right and so let's weigh both of course. we have freedom of schedule now that we. didn't have we have freedom to live. wherever we want which we didn't have. we have freedom to pick our kids from.

school or go to the dentist where we. used to have to ask permission or take. time off we have that freedom now that. we didn't have. um we have. for people who are for people who are um. introverted. they like that they can get their work. done. in the privacy of their own home you. know there are many advantages to remote. working. um. the sharing of ideas is much more. difficult like a brainstorming like. really. really hard to do in a virtual scenario. because it's hyper polite.

right you can't interrupt somebody as. easily like when you have a real. brainstorming it's messy it's loud you. step on each other's words you interrupt. each other you have to be like no no and. nobody cares it's the it's the mess it's. the joy of it. right in an online scenario. it gets you literally can't hear people. if everybody's talking at once and. you're constantly apologizing and it's. your turn and you don't have that. wonderful energy i and so i think. brainstorming's suffered. um. and then the obvious one which is.

um. which is for a lot of people and i think. if it dramatically affected younger. people more. um. but for for all of us. you you know. when you're done with work. you go out with your friends for a bite. to eat or at the pub and you about. work. and you about your boss. totally healthy and you and you do it in. the with with the friends that whether. it's a good job or a bad job it doesn't. matter you have a you have a place. separated from work. that's your friends that you go and get.

it all out right super healthy and you. feel supported and loved and hurt and. all that good stuff that went away. completely. completely and so what ended up. happening and again if you didn't have a. family if you were living alone it's all. these things just get more and more. exaggerated right. so. um what ended up happening was and again. especially young people but for a lot of. other people too. is. we started looking to the people we. spent more time with people now at work. on the on zoom with them all day and. sometimes into the into the evening we. now started spending more time with. these people we didn't have somebody to.

go out with afterwards and so we started. looking to work to be that therapeutic. outlet. right and so. what so many people did is first of all. gossip starts to swirl a lot more. because we're now venting and bitching. to each other as opposed to our friends. right so especially if somebody's young. or susceptible like gossips. can take off much quicker. which is very dangerous to a culture. but. what what i've what i've seen is that we. find one empathetic person a the good.

listener on the team right and we call. them up and we about our job we. about our boss. but then he keeps going like i don't. know what i didn't what i don't want to. do with my life you know i hate my. boyfriend i hate my girlfriend. i don't know if i should break and all. of a sudden you're dumping all of your. life's problems. on somebody from work who just happens. to be a good listener. and what we're doing is we're increasing. the stress on that person. so. we suffered it in our company i've heard. it from many other companies which is. those people those empaths they're. quitting. and if you ask them why are you quitting.

they go because i'm burnt out and you're. looking at their workload and be like i. don't understand like how you burnt out. they're burnt out from taking on all of. everyone else's stress because they're. empathetic everybody else's stress. becomes their stress. right. that's the problem with this which is. and it's good that someone like as. covetez is up like going out with our. friends. and having that. that safe space to vent away from work. is really important so in a cultural. standpoint it's very hard to control for. that like i can't interrupt it i can't.

tell them they can't you know they don't. want to go to their boss to talk about. those things but what what. again particularly young people but. others as well but particularly young. people. they're they're recognized that there. are boundaries at work. and you by dumping on one person that. they should take on all your problems. and they listen and they listen and they. listen and they listen and sometimes. they give bad advice but they listen and. listen we're doing a great disservice to. that other person to make ourselves feel. better for a few minutes. i've it's one of the first times in my.

life that i've started to think again. about culture design and it's funny. because i ran a business post covered. for seven years we had almost a thousand. people i then left in the middle of. covid and i'm launching businesses after. covert and it seems that not all of the. rules apply and a lot of that's because. of comparison now so that a modern. employee is comparing the. working culture that they're seeing on. tick tock right and linkedin right to. their own and it's almost as an employer. we're competing with a false tick tock. social media narrative that.

is um. and people never really know what they. actually want i think as it relates to. culture even me. so when if you ask someone what they. want from their working culture would it. meet their fundamental needs probably. not yeah. um so. my question to you is how are you on a. practical level. what changes have you practically made. or believe are necessary in a. post-covered world. that you wouldn't have maybe stated in a. pre-covered world if any.

let me come out to it let me come at it. from a slightly. so if you go back a bunch of years. um. our lives look very different than they. do now. obviously um. we got our sense of. purpose. from church. we got our sense of community. from. you know. whatever bowling league. we hung out with our neighbors they came. over and on the weekends and had.

barbecues with us and. work was a place that we. went to make money to pay for our lives. pay our bills and it was also a. different time where we were super loyal. to the company and the company was super. loyal to us. right. and that was. that was life. and then. church attendance started to decline. bowling leagues basically are gone. they've disappeared we don't uh go to. community centers anymore we don't have. our neighbors over on a weekend basis. and so we've our sense so all of those.

things we started to look to work to. replace so now we say to work you have. to give me a sense of purpose you have. to give me my social life you have to. give me a sense of community and. belonging. um. and now it's we've added things to that. list now since coverage was like and you. have to agree with all of my politics. and by the way you also have to be my. therapy now you have to be my place for. therapy which is what we were just. talking about right and it is an. impossible standard to put on any. culture that they can do all those. things for you just like. um we've put impossible standards on.

romantic partners that they have to be. my intellectual equal they have to be my. they have to be sexually compatible with. me they have to be emotionally. compatible with me they have to share. all of my interests all of my politics. you know we have to vote it for all the. same like these are impossible standards. to put on another human being and we're. literally setting people up to fail. we're setting up business cultures up to. fail as well like literally no culture. can can can live up to that standard and. so. um in pursuit of that. the grass is always greener.

you have people who are going from. relationship to relationship to. relationship. worse from job to job to job to job and. when i was younger you know if you. didn't like your job or if you didn't. like your boss the bad news was you had. to stay there for a year because if you. left in anything less than a year you. would hurt your cv they would be like. why did you leave in under a year you. know and now young again particularly. young people. there's no um there's no stigma to. quitting. um and it happens sometimes too quickly.

like if your confrontation avoidant and. i've seen it happen confrontation. avoidant i'm too afraid to ask my boss. for a raise so i just quit. i've seen it happen right. or. um i've been here for four months i. don't like the culture i quit. right or i got in trouble at work i hate. my boss i quit like and so people are. quitting so much my fear my fear like i. don't mind if something's super toxic. get the heck out of there most places.

are not super toxic imperfect yes. but toxicity is like a like there's a. standard you know and it's a high bar. and. um. uh. or this doesn't fit my values or this. disagree with my politics i quit my fear. is that if you go if we flash forward. five years there's going to be a. disproportionately high number of people. who have eight jobs in five years and. what's going to happen is an employer is. going to look at them be like. i can't take the risk that you're going. to stick around i'm not hiring you. you're you sound like an amazing.

candidate but you're too high risk for. me or or and. because you've had so many jobs over. such a short period of time you actually. haven't stuck around long enough to. build up a skill set or know what it's. like to manage a storm. because you've stuck around in the good. times and bailed on the bad times and so. you have now been in the workforce for. five years but you don't have five years. of work experience you have four months. of work experience and so. i don't want you either because you. don't you've never been through a battle. you know and i and i and i see it.

happening um. a young person who's been at a company. for eight months. uh goes to their boss and says. i want to raise i want a significant. raise because i'm doing the same job as. those people um those people have been. in the workforce for 10 years i know but. i'm doing the same work as them and i'm. doing good work. that's true you are doing the same work. as them and you are doing good work the. difference is i'm not paying them just. because they've. obliquely been in the workforce for 10. years i'm paying them because. you know how to hoist a mainsail in calm.

waters and you can hoist a mainsail in. calm waters as well as they can hoist a. mainsail and calm waters the difference. is they also know to hoist a mainsail in. a storm i don't know if you can always. do main sail in a storm i pay them more. because i know that if if we run into. hard times i know that they know what to. do and i can trust that we can navigate. and i also know that they will teach you. how to hoist a mainsail in a storm. it's like the same reason i buy. insurance i don't expect my house to. burn down but i pay. just in case i'm paying them more for a. skill set that i hope they never have to.

use. that's why they get more you know one of. my fears at the moment which is. perfectly linked to what you're saying. is i have a fear and i've never. expressed this openly so this is the. first time so don't all come for me at. once i have a fear that gen z are the. least resilient generation um that i've. ever seen and a lot of it and this. sounds so stupid and not evidence-based. but if you look at what tick-tock is. telling this generation work is and. there was a video that went viral on. twitter the other day out in silicon. valley where it shows like a facebook.

employer one of the big tech companies. she arrives at work in the morning she. takes a latte all this free muffins she. goes over and has the free muffin it. shows her in a tick tock literally doing. like 30 seconds of work then she's out. doing some like pottery making class. that work i've put on she comes back to. the desk doesn't have 30 seconds of work. then she's off to a work social. and. i. i reflect on the storms that my father. went through at work. and i i just know so deeply inside of me. that there's no way. some of these younger gen zed people.

could weather such a storm without. quitting. um. reporting doing a long linkedin post to. criticize their employee then quitting. employer then quitting and i just i just. fear that. gen z when when i'm hiring people that. are in that generation i almost need to. to go to an extra length just to check. that they can cope with a high-intensity. culture where demands might come on a. saturday. because the world doesn't stop on. saturdays and sundays. so i wanted to get your take on that.

um so let's examine both sides right. let's again let's let's think of it. what's the balance and what are the. costs right. um it is a generation. that already was starting to ask these. questions but coveted forced the rest of. us ask these questions too which is what. is the definition of work right like. what does a full-time job mean and these. these are unanswered questions so i. don't have an answer as to what the. future of work is because it's right now. everything's in flux and. we don't things are have not landed yet. right so what is the definition of a.

full-time job if i don't come to work. the definition used to be i come in at. eight or nine and i leave at five or six. that was the full-time job now how much. work i did between those hours you know. it was it was face time and we know that. because we've all had jobs where we. stuck around until seven so we got face. times our bus liked us right we've all. done it. right. but facetime is not a thing anymore. and so i have a full-time job and i'm. offered another full-time job and i took. it. and we've seen we see this like. employees who like have productivity.

issues and then they say that they're. burnt out and like i know how much work. you have you shouldn't be burnt out how. do they have a second job. and why shouldn't they have a second job. well we pay them benefits so what. like as long as they're getting their. work done do we care when people all. have side hustles even people who've got. full time come to work everybody's got. some sort of little side hustle. so the definition of what full-time. employment is. is up for is up for debate and i think. young people feel. in particular that why shouldn't i it's.

my time i can do what i want with it or. i only work 40 hours because those are. my those are my limits respect my. boundaries right. um and. uh. the problem is is i think all of it is. so literal. which is. yes boundaries are important but. the edges of the boundaries are fuzzy. right and it's not like i don't work on. saturdays well i i agree with you i. don't want you working on weekends. this one weekend i really need your help.

to finish this project so we can get it. out the door. or you know just i'm i i don't take. meetings after five o'clock i agree with. you i think we should have that life. balance but today i just need you to. work till six to get this one project. done. to recognize that you know so one of the. things they're getting right. is that we're married to work and we. take our phones on holiday you know we. take our computers on holiday with us. and that work has ultimate say on our. time i agree that should be we should. that should go the way of the dodo but. the extreme is not to put these hard. lines everywhere and say i don't do this.

as an aside the irony is you know they. demand that we respect their boundaries. and yet they seem to step on every other. boundary about bringing you know. emotional professionalism at work and. dumping all of my problems onto my. colleagues which is. emotionally unprofessional it's like. that's a boundary you can't cross. um. uh but there is good evidence to your. assertion that this young generation. seems less capable to deal with stress. than previous generations that is true. um they are good at.

curating you know they've grown up in an. instagram facebook you know tik tok. world where i'm really good at showing. you the life i want you to think that i. lead. and so they're really good at presenting. a confidence. that they don't have. they they sound they sound like they. have all the answers when they don't but. then i see you presenting that live to. me if you're a fellow gen z yeah and i. go. what are my my life's stressful and. difficult and my i had to work really. late and you're having a frappucci lotto. latte whatever yeah at 3am doing pottery.

lessons i need to quit yeah it raises. the question what do you want from your. life and what do you want from your work. like why do you have this job. you know. um. if it's just to pay the bills. i mean i i hope we've. i know that is the case for a lot of. people that i have to have a job to pay. the bills and i hope that employers are. good enough that even survival jobs are. a nice place to work you know. uh uh trader joe's great company where. people who have survival jobs is still a. nice place to work you know.

but i think the question is is what is. the life that you're trying to build. and if you want a job simply to pay your. bills. and you know there's this concept of. quiet quitting have you heard this one. quiet quitting i've heard this time but. i've maybe i heard you talk about it. well i i i mean it's been written about. right um it's not my concept um but. quiet quitting is this thing where um i. don't quit the job. but i basically will dial back my effort. and give you the minimum so you pay me. to do this job and i will do.

the basic minimum amount to do the job. where you can't really fire me because. i'm not really doing anything badly or. wrong. but i'm also not going above and beyond. at all. right so there's this concept of quiet. quitting where people are coming to work. and they're just doing the minimum doing. their hours doing their job. not volunteering or raising their hands. or going and that's it. and. and. it raises the question is that bad. you know and i and i'm a great believer. that. that it's all about expectation. management you know um.

like i get asked about amazon a lot like. do i disagree with how amazon has run. and my answer is always the same which. is they never lied. they didn't tell you it's a magical. place to work where it's all kumbaya and. we all like you know we all hang out. with you know unicorns every day it's. really amazing. they're very up they're very open about. it. that it's very very aggressive and very. rough and very competitive. and even the people who love it only. last two years because they burn out. um and so because they don't lie.

you know what you're going to get if you. go work there and if you like that kind. of culture then go work there if you. don't like that kind of culture then. don't work there but don't take the job. and then say i didn't know because you. did like apple you know people say well. steve jobs used to drive his people. really hard like but you ask the people. who loved working there. they will tell you yes it was hard and. there was a lot of pressure but i did. the best work of my life and i'm glad i. worked there because i never would have. been able to work to that standard if i. didn't work at apple back in the day. right so the important thing is that. companies are honest about the kinds of.

cultures that they have. right it's the lying it's the look how. everything's come by and like and look. no culture's perfect even good ones have. problems and even bad ones have. advantages right but i think it's it's. about managing expectations and i think. it's okay. for somebody to say of themself. look. i'm not a careerist. i am okay with the fact that i will. never be an owner or a senior manager. i want to be paid fairly. i want to do decent work.

um but i want work to fit neatly in my. life and not overwhelm it. and i'm going to look for a job where. that is possible and i don't think we're. at the point where we have total honesty. on both sides yet i hope we can get to. the point because there's still stigma. because the older generations like you. and me are looking at if somebody would. say to us i only want to work 40 hours. i'm. i'm willing to push my boundaries. occasionally but really this is just. we would be like well you're not working. here. you know. so i it hasn't normalized yet yeah but i.

think it's just a question of being. honest with oneself. and you're allowed to change your mind. as well. like i've decided i do want to be a. little harder driving and i do want i do. have more ambition than i thought you. know. or less but i think i think it's just. about honesty. um. and. this this this point of view is as true. in personal relationships as it is in. our professional relationships. so. i had a conversation with somebody with. somebody recently and i found absolutely.

fascinating. and. she. is polyamorous. she has. four boyfriends. right. and. she is very open about it. and. one of the things that that she explains. is. you have to be very honest with. everybody so that everybody knows. what the deal is. you know we're thinking i think what a. lot of people do. is they're dating somebody it's new it's. casual and they're dating somebody else.

that's doing casual but they don't tell. them about each other so they both think. that they're more special than they are. or they both are driving towards. something that may or may not be true. because you know you're dating two or. three people and you're to wait and see. which one works out. this in the poly world what i'm learning. is. you tell everybody everything so. everybody knows. and it's very open and honest everybody. knows where they stand you can you can. say i'm not into this i want to be the. soul or i'm okay with this and maybe. something will develop maybe it won't. but the point is it's on the table and i.

admire the level of. communication. what i'm hoping. is that we do the same thing. in our professional lives so you sort of. have poly work if you will you know i. have two full-time jobs you know i have. i have three things going or i only want. this kind of relationship and it works. if both parties are really open and. honest. because it's all about managing. expectations. hold on i thought that you were going to. give me all of your attention and all of. your effort and all of your ambition and.

you're telling me you only want to work. you want to treat my job as a casual job. like just replace relationship with job. all the same rules seem to apply but if. i knew that i would be fine with that it. would have given you a different job and. had different expectations it wouldn't. have pushed you really hard i would have. given that work to someone else. because i i'm assuming you want to live. your career like i live my career. like i assume that i'm getting into this. relationship and you're getting into it. for the same reasons as me because we. never had a conversation. we are nowhere near that. in terms of social acceptance for that.

kind of conversation but i aspire for. that that somebody sits down and says a. part of your cv and part of your. interview says. you know what kind of work-life balance. do you aspire for and how do you view. work. even if you change your mind and then as. if expectations are managed then what's. the problem you've answered one of the. the actual number one questions i wanted. to ask you about today because when i. read your book um the infinite game. one of the big things that changed in my. life was i remember i was on a plane i. read the book started writing some stuff.

came back to our office in the uk and i. did a big presentation to all my teams. about how we create a sustainable. company because if what you know if what. you're talking about in the book is is. true then. um and and we're not playing a finite. game here how do we redesign the. business from the ground up so that it. is fundamentally sustainable yep i came. up with this thing called www.work. welfare and world which is the three. reasons why we exist we made um 2020. goals so this was in 2019. 20 goals. before uh 2020 for each of these areas.

and i'm thinking about it again a lot. now which is like if i was to design my. business in a way where my team members. would stay working here forever how. would i go about that you've just. answered it by saying the point about. honesty yeah expectations so sitting. them down and saying what you want from. your life because i've never asked that. yeah i'm as you quite rightly identified. i'm presuming they want what i want. exactly um so honestly i've wrote it. here as a question to ask you how do i. get my employees to stay forever okay so. why not like a dictator that sounds. awful but i understand yeah but why.

should a. it's. you want to create a place in which. if people want to stay it'll be an. enjoyable place that they can make a. career and and grow within the. organization right. like and for some people who don't have. aspirations for leadership that they can. come and do good work every day and sort. of get fair. raises on you know on a on a regular. basis so that they would you know with. cost of living adjustments etc that they. want to stay there even if it's a middle. level like not everybody aspires to like.

be a hard driving you know owner you. know and i think it's about making it a. conversation we we never treated work. like a conversation. you know we treated it like a like a. speech this is how it's going to be. and i think so one of the good things. that's coming out of you know covet and. young people is they're they're asking. questions about why does work have to be. that way and. employers are rebelling against it. because it doesn't fit the way we grew. up and doesn't fit our understanding of. relationships you know and it's just a. conversation that's all it is. and by being honest up front.

then. you can say i don't think this is going. to be a good fit for us i don't think. you'll enjoy working here and so if i. employ you. knowing what i know now we will both get. frustrated and. i will either ask you to leave or you. will just tell me you're going to leave. that's how this will end. you know. um. because of misaligned expectations and. so i think. being honest about what you want and who. you are and what your ambitions are even. if they change in the middle you can. knock on the door and say i've changed.

my mind. i think i want to stay here forever i. told you i didn't but i really love it. here. you know and i know this from the. military you know some people join the. military because it's a steady job in a. bad economy or because the military will. pay for you to get a college education. and they didn't have the money to get it. without it. so they join the military and then when. there they fall in love with it they. never came in for service they. discovered the service and the. brotherhood and the sisters and decided. to stay you know and some people might. have come in for the service and. realized this isn't for me.

so. work should be the same. but uh. i i think i think there needs to be. honest conversation about and like i. said i i've had debates even with my my. partners my work partners you know um. you know. when they say well if we're paying them. a full salary and giving them benefits. they shouldn't have another job and my. question is why not as long as our work. product doesn't suffer as a result like. if they're phoning it in missing all the. meetings then yes absolutely. right like we're paying for certain. expectation of performance but not.

necessarily of when they get it done. and so. why shouldn't they have two jobs. uh. but i think again there has to be. honesty. which is we have an expectation that. that. of x and and if somebody says i don't. want to meet that expectation because i. want to have two jobs and. you can adjust for salary that way you. can be like all right then how about we. pay you less and you can have all the. freedom you want. and again it's a conversation. we don't make these things conversations.

we make them one way come and by the way. that's from the employee to the employer. too i demand x you know somebody asked. me recently how do i you know i want to. ask my boss for a raise how do i do it. and i said the problem the way most. people ask for a raise is like. i want a 20 raise. i did my research and my job the average. salary on my job you know is x my friend. gets paid x my my friend gets paid x i. know somebody who i work with you know. i'm doing the same work as them so i. want to be compensated equally and i. want a 20 raise.

right and so they're positioning. the question. that leaves the employer no choice but. to say yes or no. right it's and even if it's. i can help you get that but this is how. it's going to be like you're going to. have to have certain targets it still. comes across as a no. right because the the request was binary. right and so the advice that i gave to. this person was. stop thinking of your job as an event. and think of your job as a career think. of your job as a continuum.

and go to your boss in the middle of. this continuum. um i've worked here for two and a half. years. i've been here through. high times and low times you know i'm. loyal. and my aspiration is to stay here and. grow with the organization. um. uh can you help me figure out a path. that gets me to this salary. it's not a yes or no now now it's like. absolutely i can i can give it to you. today yeah no path necessary. or.

absolutely i can we're going to set some. target goals that i want you to hit and. if you can hit them then you'll. absolutely work to that salary but again. it's it's giving it's allowing for. conversation and it's allowing somebody. to to recognize that you view your own. career with the organization as a. continuum that i've been here and i want. to continue to be here so can you invest. in me. take bet can you take a bet on me. rather than meet my demands. and so i think a lot of these things. fail. um because they're poorly presented amen.

and this goes once again to you know. this younger generation. who seem to lack the skills for coping. with stress. um not very good at asking for help. um very confrontation avoidant like i. said. so afraid sometimes to have the question. the ask the boss can i have a raise that. they would rather just quit. and it's often with an email that says. you don't appreciate me you don't pay me. enough i was like what you just had to. ask me i would have given you a raise. you know. um. uh. and i think part of it is also that. you know when somebody is anxious about.

something. they do poorly present they do make. things binary because there's fear. or anxiety or stress or fear of. rejection what if my boss says no. right can i handle that like all of. these things that come into these very. sort of binary aggressive things and i. always equate all of these challenges at. work to personal relationships like you. can't go to your the person you love in. your relationship. and say i demand this. it's just not going to go well.

right but you present a situation you. say i i want us to move through this and. how do we work through this together. and i think that's how these difficult. work conversations need to happen they a. work. a work relationship is a relationship. like any other relationship. you know there's there's trust there's. anger there's uh care there's um. good days and bad days and all of the. same nonsense. a messiness in our personal. relationships are at work as well.

you know there's slightly different. standards of professionalism and. emotional professionals and things like. that but. but in terms of it's a relationship like. any other relationships you have to. treat it like a relationship and in fact. go read relationship books if you want. to fix things at work. quick one we have a brand new sponsor on. this podcast which i'm very excited to. tell you about they're a brand called. blue jeans by verizon and they are a. video conferencing and collaboration. tool that has changed the game for our. team so i'm so glad to be working with. them because as you know one of the most. important things for me is when we have.

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so many things that make sense and make. blue jeans um a better option than the. sort of competitors out there and i'll. be talking about all of those aspects. those features and the reasons why i use. blue jeans in the coming episodes if you. want to check it out you can head to. www.bluejeans.com. to learn more. when i read about our history as sapiens. or homo sapiens or whatever it appears. that we weren't with one one partner. we're with multiple partners we've now. lived in the society where we're. in arizona told to be with one partner.

um is that natural is it human does it. work the stats seem to suggest it's not. really working so well. i mean if i bought a tv and 50 and they. said oh by the way there's a 50 of these. are going to break yeah i wouldn't buy. the tv right i'd maybe you know rent one. right. [Music]. that's funny. uh. esther perel who's. wonderful if you don't know her work. uh. you know she talks about the changing. definition of monogamy monogamous used.

to mean i'm in one relationship for my. whole life. now monogamy means i'm in one. relationship at a time. right so. even that definition has changed where. monogamy and people who consider. themselves strictly monogamous. have 15 monogamous relationships. right. over the course of ten how many clothes. i've had six close you know. relationships. they were all monogamous right so these. these definitions are evolving anyway.

right. that's number one. number two i. like. that we are having conversations about. the health of relationships like we're. having conversation about the health of. work. and. these things have always existed the. difference is now the stigma of talking. about them. seems to have dissipated. at least in the united states where i. live like it's amazing how many people. are talking about open marriages open. relationships polyamorous relationships. consensual nog monogamy like i don't.

even know what all the differences of. all these words are if i'm honest like. they it's there's so many words that. seem to mean similar things. i don't understand the nuances but the. point is is like it's amazing to me how. many people are raising the question. of what is a healthy relationship and i. think one of the things. that boils down for me is it goes right. back to what we're talking about which. is. it base it's based on both parties and. they both get a say and so if you say i. want to live this kind of lifestyle and. you're upfront about it and somebody. says.

i'm cool with that then great but if you. lie and say i want to have this kind of. i want to be a strictly monogamous. but you don't really. because you like the person a lot and. you think that if you tell them that you. want a different kind of relationship. you're going to lose them like we're. it's the relation the conversations we. have are largely born out of fear. you know if i tell her what i really. want she won't like me and then i won't. get another date. that's true that is that is a. possibility but if i tell her exactly. who i am and what i want and she likes. me for who i am.

then isn't that better. and i think it's the same thing that. we're just talking about work. so i don't think it's right for us to. say. we should be strictly anything. because some people want. one kind of relationship. let me let's rephrase that both people. in that relationship want that kind of. relationship and both people in the. other kind of relationship both want. that kind of relationship. then we just have to respect that we. have different points of view about what. brings happiness as long as you're happy. and it's kind and it's consensual.

i i think. we're done. and usually the problems arise when. somebody. has most of these decisions most of. these problems are born out of fear fear. of loss right insecurity in a. relationship jealousy for example this. is the other thing um that friend i was. telling you about who who's super open. and honest about her her life i was. talking to her the other day and she. says. i'm jealous. she says i'm having jealousy. and i'm i'm trying to figure out where. it's coming from.

and what i found so fascinating about it. is she. treated jealousy as a feeling. like happy sad angry. where in most monogamous traditional. relationships. jealousy is usually an accusation. right. i saw you look at. the barista that way. right and jealousy is born usually out. of fear. and hyperprotective you know possessive. is born out of fear fear of loss.

right and what i found so fascinating. was. she didn't blame her partner for her. feeling of jealousy. she wanted to understand where her. feeling of jealousy was coming from. it was a feeling. right. um and not an accusation. and so i think the same is i. we're to all of this whether we're. talking about work or personal. relationships. everything we're talking about today. comes right back to those human skills. that we are lacking. and i hate the term soft skills.

hard skills and soft skills we talk. about right hard and soft are opposites. right. they're hard skills and human skills. these are the hard skills you need to. learn to do your job and these are the. human skills you need to learn to be a. better human being we're really good at. teaching hard skills we're junk at. teaching human skills and human skills. include things like how to listen. how to have a difficult conversation. how to give and receive feedback. how to have an effective confrontation. these are skills that most people lack.

we saw it after the murder of george. floyd the number of leaders who after. george floyd was killed. did nothing. they said nothing to their teams not. because they're bad people it's because. they weren't taught how to have a. difficult conversation and so they were. so afraid there's that fear again of. saying something wrong that they would. accidentally offend someone or inflame. the situation that they chose nothing. and i think the same goes in our. relationships we make too many decisions. out of fear.

right now as entrepreneurs we understand. risk. right we understand risk. right and that. big reward comes with big risk. small reward comes with small risk no. risk you're leaving it up to somebody. else. and to get over the fact that if i tell. somebody who i really am. that they may not like me. well don't you want to find that out. sooner rather than later because they're. gonna find out. they're gonna the truth is always. revealed sometimes quickly sometimes. slowly the truth is always revealed.

eventually. but think about the magic of being able. to say the kind of job you want to have. and the kind of life you want to live. and the kind of relationship you want to. have at the risk that they may not hire. you or they may not go on a second or. third date with you. but think about the opportunity if you. do take that risk i'm thinking about all. the people listening to this right now. who are in a relationship they've been. there for 15 years it's become loveless. maybe they're not having sex anymore. yeah and they're driving on the motorway. now listening to us speak and they're. thinking i really want to have sex with. someone else and if i go home and tell.

jane or john whoever it is i don't want. to be gender specific then i just want. to have sex with someone else and i also. want to keep them around they're going. to leave so i can't be honest simon. right so um. once again it goes like asking for a. raise right if you make it binary. you're giving you're backing someone. into a corner. i i realize our marriage is loveless so. i want to start seeing other people. and you can too. you know. and what you're doing is you're making a.

binary you're forcing someone into a. binary yes or no which is unfair to. somebody and you're setting yourself up. for probably failure right. as opposed to saying. i love you. you're my life partner you're my best. friend. i never ever want to lose you at the. same time. our relationship is loveless. and i'm struggling. because i crave love and i crave that. kind of affection. and we don't have it and so i'm. struggling and don't know what to do.

and i want to know how you feel and i. want to we can work on this together. so you're making it's just like the. raise it's like let's let's make this. now if if you hate the marriage and get. out of the marriage you know like. if you've tried the counseling and it's. broken then that's a different. conversation but if there is the desire. to stay in the loving relationship in. some way shape or form. but you're looking for to fill a place. that's missing then that's a. conversation but it's not a demand or a. request.

it's a difficult honey i need to have an. uncomfortable difficult conversation. and we may not get it resolved today. but i want us to promise to stick. through each other stick this stick. through this with each other. so we can figure it out together it. might take us a day might take us a week. it might take us six months but i. i i'm going to be here throughout and. want to go through this with you because. i am struggling in this relationship. somebody else has the right to know that. their partner is struggling in the. relationship and odds are if only one. person is struggling.

there's no there's no scenario we're. only one person struggling it's like. when we have a problem with an employee. like if we really can't. they hate their job too like it's not a. shocker. you know and like to start the. conversation like listen i'm struggling. with you i know you hate it here because. it can't be one way. right that doesn't exist. um. i'm pretty sure most of the issues i've. had in my life stem from the fact that i. didn't have an honest conversation. sooner me too. of course me too and i made the mistake. in my life. that.

i didn't and i was it was well. intentioned i didn't want to hurt their. feelings. i didn't want to uh offend them or upset. them and so i dealt with the difficult. thing in my head and tried to come up. with the solution that i thought. best looked after my needs and your. needs because i wanted but if i told you. this i would burden you with the stress. of having to figure this out so i'll. figure it out and then i'll make the. decision that i think is best for it. failed every time. because the mistake that i made. is i treated the relationship.

as an individual when it's not it's two. people and the problem with a. relationship with two people is i'm not. in total control of the relationship. remember i'm a member of a group i'm a. member of a tribe i'm a member of a team. i'm not in total control of everything. and i have to relinquish some control. and the thing we have to deal with more. than anything is fear it's fear that is. the underlying thing why we don't have. honest conversations. it's why we are hyper aggressive or make. things binary it's because we fear. rejection we fear loss we fear whatever. it is. and it's it's and we can ask for.

somebody to reassure us. and we can deal with the fear first. and by saying i'm going to stay here and. an employer or or a. a lover can say. i promise you i will stick this stick. through this with you as well i will not. abandon you we'll get through this. together. that takes the fear down a notch. right that that that we will do this. together. and in in my own relationships. you know coveted.

all the bad that came with covet again. you know how i see the world i see the. world is balanced there's bad there's. good and bad in everything right. all of the. struggle and bad that happened in covet. there was tremendous good also. um. and in my own. in my own life. um i had the opportunity like many of us. to. stop. get off the hamster wheel. and then look backwards and saying do. you want to get back on the hamster. wheel. you know or look at all my relationships.

like why. weren't they working like where's my. accountability in this. you know. uh what was i doing wrong. and i realized that one of the things i. had to do was i had to not i had to be a. better listener. and so. you know my girlfriend. you know and. when we first started dating she's a. terrible listener. terrible right i mean we joke about it. uh. where i would say babe i need to have an. uncomfortable conversation with you this. is something i'm struggling with.

something you said or did that it's. making me uncomfortable i need to work. it through with you and she would start. telling me a problem she had with me. right and so. what i would do is just hold space for. that the conversation would just change. entirely you know. [Music]. but i had to learn what i learned about. listening is this holding space. to learn to hold space for someone. you know to learn. to. to as if as if holding a baby. you know. like. to let someone feel safe telling you. what they need to say.

without you trying to fix something or. disagree with something or correct. something. right go on tell me more what else. was the most valuable thing i learned. in covid. and. the nice thing is is when you give that. to someone. weirdly. they. by some weird osmosis. they. gain the capability to give it back to. you. because you've done it if you do it. enough times you can say.

this is what came later which is i i. hear what you're saying and i want to. talk about that. but for now. i want to finish the thing that i. started talking about can you can we. just start with that. and you can say it politely. and they recognize that you've held. space for them so many times. that they'll offer you that service and. they know how to do it because they've. seen it modeled the really interesting. thing about that i was thinking about my. own relationships with my with my. partner is the reason why that's so true. for me is because most of the time when. someone is talking and talking and. repeating themselves because they don't.

feel like they've been heard correct so. in my relationship with my partner the. fact that we do exactly what you've. described where we literally go give me. a safe space and then i talk means she. only feels like she has to say it once. because she feels like it was heard the. first time right in my previous. relationship. my i remember being i'm gonna be honest. i was in the wardrobe one day and i've. locked myself in there my girlfriend is. banging on the door repeating herself. and i've i'm not proud of this but it's. the truth i. long context i said i'm going for new. year's eve.

mean a client are going out to singapore. it's their birthday it's the biggest. client in the world they've asked me to. come it's their birthday she goes i want. to spend new years with eve with you and. i go yeah but i i've told them that i'm. going to singapore she goes i want to. spend new year's eve with you yeah and. that just went oh no and at one point. she's like screaming at me so i just. like go and hide in the wardrobe yeah. she spends all night hanging on the. bloody door like. repeating the same thing over and over. in my new relationship. we. we communicate with more context and we. actually listen when the other person's. speaking so it only needs to be said. once yeah and then she can speak and.

then i listen and i repeat it back to. her and then i speak. so what are the things that same right. so this was 10 years ago by the way i'm. not trapping myself in more so so uh you. know uh. the thing that i learned about being in. a relationship i used to come home and. do the same thing like. uh. hey babe you know i got a thing on. friday with a client. right or. i'll give you an even simpler one um. um. the joneses.

uh invited us over for dinner on friday. i know that you're free on friday so i i. so i said yes so we'll go for another. joneses on friday and hell ensues you. know. and i was like but i know you're i know. we have no plans you know and so now. what i've learned is when the joneses. call me and say you want to come for. dinner if i go oh my god i'd love to let. me check. and i come home and say hey. the joneses invited us out for dinner on. friday but i want to check with you. first oh my god i'd loved it great i'll. call them and confirm and i've made that. again instead of me well-intentioned. making all the decisions even though i.

know. i know exactly what it'll be yes i know. the answer is going to be yes. what i'm doing is including the other. person in the relationship. that's all it is it's making someone. feel seen and heard and included and it. and like i said there's so many great. lessons we can learn from our personal. relationships which we can apply at work. because again. an easy way to understand how i view how. i approach all these things i view it. all as just human beings interacting. with human beings that's all it is and. all the anxieties and fears and egos and. all it applies everywhere.

what's the most difficult conversation. you've had to have. with someone. um when we're talking about that honesty. and. communicating as authentically and. openly as we can as soon as possible. what are those difficult conversations. you've had to have or a conversation you. had maybe too late down the line and you. thought i wish i'd had this conversation. sooner i mean. they're not different from anybody else. i mean as. you know. talking about george floyd to my team. talking to george floyd with my black. friends that.

was really hard um and i made mistakes. you know like i remember with one of my. friends one of my black friends i was. crying. you know as we were talking about it and. i said to him why aren't you crying. and he said because it's new for you. it's not new for me. he says i'm exhausted. i'm like i'm glad you're having your. experience but it's not my experience. that you're you're this is you're seeing. this for the first time i've seen this. my whole life. you know. like that was that was hard you know to.

have that being told at me. to me it's true too. um but. my conversations are the same as i mean. the difficult conversations you know. it's about it's about honesty and. relationship but honestly with with him. you know with somebody on a team. you know if something's not working out. or if you give somebody really hard. feedback somebody who you are really. close with it doesn't mean you're. letting them go but like there's really. hard feedback you need to give to. someone. and learning to deliver it with love. learning to be a matter of fact. you know one of the mistakes i would.

always make you know this you know these. all these theories about give somebody. the you know the compliment sandwich. tell them something good tell them thing. you want to tell them tell something. good doesn't work because it's it's. generic something good really. specific something bad and. generic something good you know seven. good things one bad thing. generic generic generic really. specific. so it doesn't work in my opinion. it doesn't work like you if it's really. it's like you know i really like that. you show up to work with a smile. and there's one other thing i need to. talk about you know. um. but what i've learned is when delivering.

good news. be very emotional. and when delivering bad news um remove. the emotion. and so like bad news at work especially. you know when we sit with time someone's. like. um. ah so. i don't i don't want to belabor this um. you've been with us for a long time uh i. need to. this is really hard i need to give you. some. difficult feedback.

i'm infusing all of the emotion into. this. right but to be dispassionate about it's. like hey i need to give you some. difficult news i need to just have a. really blunt conversation with you about. something that's going on at work and. it's going to be really hard for you to. hear but i need to tell you boom here it. is. it. it people appreciate it when we're just. straight with them. and you know not infuse all the extra. emotion. um but you know. yeah i think the same i think the same. is. again same as true in all relationships. i've always found that i i struggle to. use the word employees.

and. you just went to use the word then and. you changed it to team yeah is that. something that you also the reason why. the reason why so i use whenever i'm on. the podcast i talk about it but my my. team will never hear me and if they. might not have noticed this but this has. been the same for 10 for about 10 years. i will never in a in a chat set call. them and call people that work in my. company employees yeah it seems to be. somewhat of a violation of my values. somehow and i just noticed you went to. say the word. team someone on my team that's what you. did yeah i mean i i do the same i mean i.

i. when i show up to a group called my k. team and like yeah then. you know um. employee to me is a technical word. you know yeah i don't mind talking about. employees when we're talking about. generic company stuff. um i don't mind referring to employees. when i'm talking to an insurance when. i'm talking about insurance. you know or benefits you know it's like. it's a technical term that i think is. totally fine to use in technical times. but when i'm referring to people and. those people have names and faces. then they're the team.

do you you know this andrew tate thing. this and you take guy has been in a lot. of the headlines you know he is probably. a good thing you don't um he's been in. it's this guy that kind of came out with. this kind of pro. you know pseudo weird kind of strange. masculine approach his base thesis i. guess is saying that men. young men and men generally are missing. something in their lives that the modern. world hasn't given them um jordan. peterson has alluded to similar things. jordan peterson's been on this podcast a. few times it's got me thinking about.

gender differences in our needs in in. the world a lot of people there's a lot. of people in like youtube in the. self-help space that are saying men have. these unmet needs because the world is. becoming more equal. and they are lacking their sense of. purpose and men are meant to be i don't. know tribe leaders and all these kinds. of things. and when you look at the the. suicide rates in our country the single. biggest killer of men under the age of. 40 is. themselves it's suicide and so i've been. i've been mulling this. is is the is is there gender differences.

in your view these are all very. difficult topics i understand but. and is are men in particular having. certain needs go unmet because of a. changing world in your view. everybody has unmet needs because of a. changing world. fact. are there gender differences of course. there are gender differences and how we. respond to men versus how we respond to. women is different. a friend of mine who. was um. she was she.

three things happened to her. simultaneously in the military three. things happened to her simultaneously. any one of them would would be difficult. but all three of them happened her at. the same time she was promoted to senior. management she became lieutenant colonel. she was deployed for 13 months. 12 months. and she was given her very first command. okay so any one of those things is a is. a trial and all three happened at once. right. and. she took over a job where the previous. five leaders had all been fired it was a.

poorly run. uh group. she would be working with people from. different forces so she's in the air. force she'd have air force and army. reporting to her some of whom were much. older than her and much more experienced. than her. and. she is a hard driving you know. passionate young officer who said i'm. going to turn this group around and i'm. going to prove to everybody that i can. turn it around. i've been practicing leadership i've. been studying leadership i want to be a. great leader. and it was a failure. like it was people weren't they were.

ignoring her. they weren't taking her seriously and no. matter how she powered up it didn't work. and. um. every night. she started she would cry herself to. sleep. and started regretting being in the. military all she wanted to do was go. home she didn't want to be stuck on. deployment anymore what was something. really exciting now became a regret. and. she didn't know what to do she was. failing.

which was hard for her to deal with. alone i mean as it was and so she. decided to give up. and she. said i'm. i will not turn this group around. so if i'm gonna fail at my job then i. might as and i'm stuck here for another. six months and so is everybody else i'm. going to change my mandate and instead. of turning this group around i'm just. going to ensure that the rest of their. time here they really enjoy it. i'm just going to make it more fun for. them to come to work every day because. they're also away from their families. and stuck.

and then something strange really. started to happen they started to listen. to her take her seriously they started. to respect her more and she ended up she. ended up being very very high performing. at the end and the group completely. turned around. because. on her way in she made it about herself. and she made it about the metrics and. she made it about the performance. the lesson she learned was if you make. it about the people. then the people will take care of. everything else. and i remember i sat down with her a. week or two after she got back and she's. telling me this whole story for the. first time you know after she got back.

and she started crying. and and when she said to me jesus i have. never felt a joy. so deep. as seeing someone discover that they are. capable of more than they thought they. were. which is very different than i'm going. to turn this around. so in in her telling me. this she said one of the big lessons she. learned is there is such thing as female. leadership. and she had a conversation with one of. the army one of the soldiers.

and like why didn't you listen to me. like why why was it so difficult why did. we struggle. and he said point blank because when a. male officer yells at me. right. i take it. i hear it i move on right it's fine. when you yelled at me i felt like my. mother was yelling at me. and it was more difficult. you know so there are gender differences. in how we respond. to each other because it is a mom dad. thing right we respond differently. um.

and. um. and. men are sometimes. not always but men are sometimes better. at just being told blank by another guy. just do this and you go i'll just do it. but when you create gender it creates. all kinds of other other interpretations. and associations like our mothers. so i think we cannot discount those. and you know traditional male leadership. qualities are things like decisiveness. aggression you know those kinds of. things traditional female.

um. qualities are things like patience you. know maternal instinct. uh empathy. and i think the mistake we've made. across all leadership is we teach male. leadership we teach decisiveness and we. teach aggression and these are the. things we teach we teach that to. everybody and the reality is is what. makes great leaders is they have a. balance. and what we should be teaching is more. of female leadership. and you know all leaders should take on. the qualities of patience and empathy. you know this this is the irony.

um. and so uh. i think we i i think we do need to teach. those skills i mean those this goes back. to what we're saying before these are. those human skills you know women get my. work a lot quicker than men when i was. starting my career you know women were. just not and be like yeah. yeah what do you. of course and men would be like what are. what are your case studies. and what cases studies you have to prove. your your model. you know. men would fight with me on some of the. details and women just inherently.

intuitively understood that the humanity. of the work that i was preaching just. made sense. and there's space for that and so yeah i. think i think female leadership and. those qualities are just necessary. everywhere but yes there are differences. and they cannot be discounted it's. difficult to talk about them though. isn't it it feels like a minefield even. when i talk about gender differences it. feels like i'm going to step on a mind. somewhere because. you're entirely correct and my previous. company was a managing director was a. woman and. i think the business was more successful.

because of those qualities you've. suggested empathy care patience. um. she was much more. honest about uh. honest about forecasts yeah and how how. the business was going to perform versus. a male leader i mean this is such a. narrow example so it's not necessarily. truth but a male managing director we. had who was extremely. exaggerating and very very very. ambitious about forecast that we never. realized that makes sense that that's. consistent and and i think you know. there's lots of data on this you know.

men you know when they apply for a job. and they say we need these ten things. and if they have six out of the ten they. apply for the job and women won't apply. for the job unless they have nine or ten. of the qualities. you know. men are a little you know i've seen it. happen in meetings where you know. there's a male entrepreneur and like the. client is saying you know we'd love this. to have we'd love to have this and they. kind of have it and the guy goes we can. totally do that. yeah you know and they'll sell it. they'll sell it right there and then. figure it out later yeah and i've sat in. meetings with a female entrepreneur who.

has almost that like they're really. close and i and that you know somebody's. saying we would love this i'm like do. you have that they're like it's not. we haven't tested it yet. i'm like you have it tell them you have. it they're like what's no it's not. perfect yet. you know. um. so yeah i mean i i mean some of it some. of it is a cultural as well. i have a female entrepreneur friend who. has a theory and i have to stress this. is her theory. exactly exactly right she believes men.

make better entrepreneurs than women. she believes men make better. entrepreneurs than women okay yes. and the logic is. uh that. uh. as when we're young. traditional roles for the most part. still exist that if you want to go. to the prom. [Music]. generally. the boy asks the girl right it's it's i. think it's softening but it's. traditional roles are still. still there which means from a young age.

boys. learn. to muster up courage take a risk and get. rejected. and then they have to do it again. and then they have to do it again. right and so you flash forward to. adulthood. and. men. who learn that skill of asking of taking. a risk. facing rejection being rejected and then. trying again. makes them resilient entrepreneurs. where for for again assuming traditional.

roles are played you know if if. a. a woman who hasn't learned the skill of. risk rejection. um is more afraid of the risk. as an adult. now we could argue that with online. dating you know swiping left and right. that everybody's losing the skill. you know. we could argue. that nobody has to take a risk because. you just swipe right you don't know that. they swipe left on you they think maybe. they just didn't see you so you only get. the oe it connected but you nobody ever.

gets rejected. so are we building that goes back to the. original conversation of a young. generation that's less capable of. dealing with stress than older. generations like. much there are fewer opportunities to. risk reject have to try again. right and the things that we learn as. kids these social interactions they they. they do become skills as adults. and so you know is it a softening of a. generation. should not we be asking both.

you know you know. uh uh. boys and girls. you know shouldn't we not be asking them. to to go to the to learn to both have to. learn to take risk as opposed to taking. the risk away from everybody i don't. know no you know what the what i will. say is i've had two. very successful um women entrepreneurs. on this podcast who've said the same. sentence which is as women in the in the. workplace we typically don't ask for. raises as much as our current parts. and. that kind of supports what you're saying. there which is men have at some point.

learned to just ask. for the things that they they they want. whether it's a raise whether it's a job. whatever it is you know but i think i. think you know the theory here that that. my friend posed. is that it. doesn't come from. our experiences of dating when we're. younger that we build these skill sets. that benefit us. later in life as entrepreneurs the whole. it's not risk reward it's risk reject. risk rejection.

whenever i speak to someone that does a. lot of interviews and conversations and. talks you know. um online a lot i always i always try. and think of questions that i would ask. them that they've never been asked. before. and one day i remember it was actually. after you left when we were in the. studio in l.a i thought to myself if i. was going to interview myself. it would probably be the most. interesting interview in the world. because i know all of the. and i know all of the stuff that no. one's ever asked me that i've maybe. scattered away from or whatever. if you were sat in my chair and you were. interviewing simon today.

what does what are some of the questions. you would have asked you to get to. to get the most interesting stuff out of. you. maybe just give me one question i think. you've done a pretty good job i mean. i think the best interviews are. conversations. i think the best interviews have no. agenda but the interviewer. has genuine curiosity. i think the best interviews are. open-ended questions. that are difficult. and in this case of your interviews you.

know you are pretty blunt with an with a. question. that doesn't leave a lot of wiggle room. you know a lot of questions i can wiggle. out of and yours less so. um but they give an opportunity to me to. think out loud you know. i think a lot of the questions you asked. today i i haven't thought about or if i. have i haven't sort of codified it and. what. you heard were not answers but you heard. me thinking. you know and if you go back and listen. to them i probably they're probably sort. of like sort of bounce around a little.

bit because you hear me trying to get to. an answer they're not answers i'm trying. to get to an answer and those for me are. the best. um because i walk away feeling. enlightened because i got to think. um where usually the answers the. questions are. i've heard them all before they're very. focused on my work. when you wrote this when you wrote that. you know what were you thinking. and i don't learn anything. so when you ask me about my work i know. the answers when you ask me not about my. work you asked me about life and you.

asked me about challenges that the world. is facing. that's what i love so you know i think. you've done that and so the questions. that i ask myself are the questions you. asked me okay i'm going to ask you the. question i'm not copying out it's no. different genuinely you're very good at. what you do i will ask you the question. i would ask myself okay which is what is. the greatest i was just thinking about. it then what is the greatest fear you. have about how you're currently living. your life. what is the greatest fear i have about.

how i'm currently living my life. that i'm not 100 honest with myself. because i'm not honest with myself i. won't be honest to others. um. you know. and when somebody asks me a question. that that i'm afraid of the answer not. because i'm afraid of offending them. but i'm. i'm i'm afraid of how i feel about the. answer myself.

you know. uh. i think that would be it have you got a. suspicion that you're not being. completely honest with yourself. uh. i think that all of us have a capacity. to rationalize. it's. it's one of the genius things about. being a human being we can rationalize. anything. you know i can make any decision the. right decision. you know. and i can convince somebody of it as. well you know like this is definitely. the right decision.

um and i think it's that it's that gut. that deep down inside to be truly honest. even if the answer is i don't know. um. or i'm scared. or i'm uncertain. or. i want this and i feel like i shouldn't. want it. do you have a suspicion that you're not. being honest with yourself in a certain. area of your life. do you have a suspicion that i'm not. being honest yourself i don't think it's. a suspicion i think it's i think it's. confirmed. i don't think i suspect it i think i.

think. i think i'm. i like every human being. have have elements of of self-doubt and. security of course. you know and. and can convince myself of anything you. have self-doubt in certain areas of. course. that's none of your business but that's. a good enough phone so yeah those are. those are those are my those are those. are my that's that's like not i i'm i'm. pretty open but. there are things that i want to resolve. myself i want to resolve with myself. before before.

i'm able to share them because if i. share them it has to benefit others. yeah and you have to have done i guess. work on i have to do work because and. i'm happy to share stuff that's in my. life. if i believe that that conversation even. if it's unresolved has a benefit to. others maybe it does maybe it doesn't i. find it really interesting is you know. as i do this podcast where my line is. what won't i share and there is things i. won't share yeah it feels like. maybe i'm bullshitting myself. maybe it's quite a lot of stuff i don't. show or i twist it to make myself look. better people like to be a hero you know.

i mean or or like. i think we live in a world that we have. confused. vulnerability with broadcasting our. feelings. right and going on a podcast. or worse. sitting in your bedroom with your phone. on self view. and broadcasting your breakup or your. anger or whatever it is on tick tock or. whatever your medium of choice is. you know. is not vulnerability even if you're.

crying. have that exact same conversation with. those exact same words with somebody you. love and see how difficult that is. that's vulnerability. and i i just the idea of broadcasting. everything i've i i think it's you know. putting pictures of. me as a baby and my dad holding me and. happy father's day dad i love you my. dad's not on freaking instagram what am. i why don't i just call my dad and say. happy father's day i love you as opposed. to like i think it's hilarious that our.

need to broadcast everything. and we think that's vulnerability and. it's not it's broadcasting our emotions. which are different so i think. you know. um. those conversations that you're. struggling to have. and like the ones that i'm the ones that. i won't share it's not that i won't. share them with anybody it's that i. won't share them with you. because i like you. but we're not you're not my soul mate. you're not the person that i confide in. i will absolutely share those deep those. things that i'm struggling with but i'll. share with somebody who can hold space.

for me with love. not with the desire to make a good. podcast. you know. um it's almost an old-fashioned. perspective you know so so. the mistake people will make is to not. share them with anyone. and when i say it's not your business it. doesn't mean it's not out of anyone's. business. i absolutely do share those things. because it would be unhealthy not to. but i want to help i want to share those. things in a really safe. really safe magical space with somebody. who loves me no matter what and kiss me. no matter what and will stand by me no.

matter what. interesting no one has ever responded. like that before which i think is um. which is amazing in and of itself. because it's really it's really changed. my perspective on a few things. as you know. we have a closing tradition on this. podcast where the last guest asks a. question for the next guest yes they. have no idea who they're asking it for. correct. i wonder i'd love to know how somebody. answered my question last time. we could look it up i'll tell you yeah. often.

um. it's a slightly interesting one because. it feels like it's something we've. discussed in many respects um. what's one conversation. what's one conversation you haven't had. which you know you need to and why. haven't you had it are you willing to. have it. yeah won't share the answer and yes i. will. because you'd rather have it with the. person i'd rather have it with the. person like i i'm like to me to. broadcast it now.

before i've talked to the person. seems unfair and disingenuous. and i think. you know it's kind of like. when. like there's a respect you know it's. like when you hear. about. you know there was a tragedy. and people were killed and they don't. release the names before they've told. the families they tell the families. first then they release the names. just out of respect. and i think the same goes for these. kinds of conversations which is i think. we owe it to the people in our lives we.

love and care about to let them be the. first to hear the thing that has to be. said rather than the second or the last. i think it's just. it's just. that's how i want to be treated too i'd. want to be the first to hear it if. somebody has something to say to me. it's just respect. so yes there are things and they will be. said. i completely agree and enjoy it really. it really ties in nicely with your. earlier point about having a. conversation as soon as possible an. honest conversation as soon as possible. but also i guess the the adjacent point.

to that is having it with them first. yeah making sure they don't find out by. the grapevine or podcast can i can i can. i yes 100. and i've heard stories of like people. hearing about things on television you. know yeah and people losing their jobs. they found out through somebody else. things like that um. uh can i just share one funny story. about being honest before we close. um. honesty always has to be honest right. like honesty is really easy just tell. the truth. but. honesty doesn't have to happen in the. moment.

and this is a lesson i've learned right. so i went to see a friend of mine's play. and it was. easily. the worst thing i've ever seen in my. entire life. i mean. [Music]. if she wasn't in it i would have walked. out. it was awful. and at the end of the performance i hung. around with the you know close friends. and family in the in the foyer and she. eventually came out still in costume. still in makeup and she knows i'm an. honest broker. so after the thanks for coming the first. question was what did you think.

right. now i'm an honest person but she's all. jacked up on adrenaline she's all jacked. up on emotion now is not the time but. the problem is i can't lie you know we. do it all we lie all the time to protect. other people's feelings you know you get. given a gift it's the ugliest sweater. you've ever seen in your life and they. go what do you think you go oh my god i. love it thank you you don't love it. right so don't say you love it to. protect them right. but you don't have to be honest in the. moment so what i said was oh my god i'm. so proud of you it was so amazing to be.

here and watch you do your thing i've. never sat in the audience and seen you. do your thing before it was so much joy. to see you on stage all of that was true. and that was it done. the next day when all the adrenaline had. come down and there was no more emotion. i called her up and said can i tell you. what i thought of the play she goes yeah. and then i told her point by point why. it sucked but we had a we had a rational. conversation the next day and i think we. make this mistake all the time in our. relationships which is we think we have. to be honest in the moment but we don't.

read the room and understand that. there's too much emotion involved to. have a rational conversation you know. somebody's mad at us and we're good this. is not the time for rational feedback. you meet emotion with emotion you meet. rational with rational you can't mix the. two. and sometimes we're rational but they're. emotional which means we have to stand. down. right so what i've learned about honesty. is we have to be honest but we can. actually delay. you have to meet rational with rational. and emotional with emotional let me give. you some honesty then um i i. i went um. i went on your video subscription.

library absolutely love it i'm a member. now you'll see my name in the back end. um looked at the live the live courses. coming up watch loads of the videos. amazing it feels like it feels like it's. too cheap to be honest because the. amount of value there around all of the. things that are foundational to my life. my businesses my relationships. everything it feels like it's a little. bit too cheap it's like a couple of cups. of coffee yeah for a month and i can. just binge all of your content all of. the videos and you've got all of these. other instructors on that yeah who are. teaching the lesson it feels very cheap. that's not the thing the only thing i. thought i thought oh i don't know if. this is this is the best is the name.

go on. i. the word subscription for me is. a bad thing give me another name. uh simon's unit simon sinek university. simon's library any of these things. would have made me way more so i was. thinking about the name and i was. thinking video video subscription. library video yeah it's not really why. i'm here subscription it's not it's not. a great one. yeah. so i was i was just thinking this would. change it but no i'm so i i mean i have. it but i have no emotional connection to. anything and the reason why.

it's a technical thing and we call it a. technical thing i watched your last. episode and you talked about honesty in. it and i was thinking this is way better. than it sounds yeah you've got and i. have to say this because people have to. check it out. basically the the you've distilled your. books into actionable courses there's. live classes there's all of your content. on there yeah everything you've ever. done it feels like i'm ripping you off. by being a member that's very nice i. genuinely think if i hang around there. my life would be better if i hang around. for an hour a day my life will be so. basically we'll change the name which. will make people feel even more value.

and then thanks to this conversation. we're going to charge people more you. should genuinely i mean we've i haven't. been i you know i've had this. conversation with before with people. which is i know that our wide discovery. course i know there are people who offer. sort of all kinds of purpose-finding. courses that they charge 1500 bucks for. you know and. i know because i've been told that our. course is like a thousand times better. than a lot of things on the market and. yet we charge like i don't know i think. i can't remember the prices it's like it. was 20 something dollars for a month but. i mean but but if you take the y. discovery course it's like 85 bucks 125.

i can't remember. but but it's low. and the reason is is because i believe i. have a responsibility to let. everyone who wants to learn their why. learn their why and not those who can. just afford fifteen hundred dollars. and you know the way we attempted to. price that product was what would be. slightly expensive for a college student. a bloody college student you know doing. 150k debt right so fraction of what you. so so that's my point which is like 1500. is. um exclusive.

and i would rather. s i would rather try and make it up. in volume because i want more people to. learn their why so. you know is that too low i mean it is a. trial right now just you know we just. launched it so it's full of bugs so you. know i'm sure one of the the mental. things was like you know. we probably shouldn't like we should. probably like ease people into it just a. little buggy um i appreciate the. feedback um but it is important for me. to keep prices relatively low because. it's more important to me that people.

learn the stuff than don't the price. fine i want it to be cheaper for my own. selfish needs right it was actually the. name i thought did it disservice okay. i'm gonna that was it simon's library or. simon's university i'm done yeah uh i. have no i have no emotional attachment. to it whatsoever so we'll make that. change thank you very much for the. feedback. everything's written in pencil exactly. thank you thank you for coming again. simon honestly it's a huge it's a choice. and i learned so much from these. conversations that i wish i actually. need to go back through this episode. with my own notes so i can um change my. business and my life for the better. thank you so much it's a joy i i learn i.

learn as much if not more than you do so. i really appreciate you having me it's. amazing we'll do it again sometime i. hope so thank you. i had a few words to say about one of my. sponsors on this podcast my girlfriend. came upstairs yesterday when i was. having a shower and she said to me that. she tried the heel protein shake which. lives on my fridge over there and she. said it's amazing low calories you get. your 20 odd grams of protein you get. your 26 vitamins and minerals and it's. nutritionally complete in the protein. space there's lots of things but it's. hard to find something that is nice. especially when consumed just with water.

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life thank you hill for making a product. that i actually like the salted caramel. is my favorite i've got the banana one. here which is the one my girlfriend. likes but for me salted caramel is. the one. [Music]. oh. [Music]. [Music].

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