Simon Sinek: "Strong Thigh Muscles = More friends", This Is Why You Can't Make Friends!

you want to know why we're lonely cuz. we've architected Our Lives to be lonely. we are social animals of course it's. hurting us and so the question is is. what can you do and this is the one. thing that I learned that was the. greatest lesson I ever learned in my. life the true skill that we've lost and. everybody's guilty of this this s cynic. the bestselling author sought after. speaker and unshakable Optimist is back. with one solution that aims to solve. some of the biggest issues we face today. everyone's looking for biohack for all. the problems that we're facing today.

Rising suicide Rising anxiety depression. addiction mental health and there's one. bioh hack that's better than all of the. things that we're trying which is. friendship but we are not good at making. friends and we're not good at looking. after friends there's an entire industry. to help people become better leaders to. help us maintain better relationships. and there's no industry to teach us how. to be a better friend and yet people. with close friendships are healthier. they live longer they better deal with. stress less likely to become addicted. friendship is the thing that actually. protects us so why aren't we. prioritizing our friendship it's because.

we actually don't know how to do it mass. transportation technology social media. all of these things they've interrupted. our ability to make friends or sometimes. we have old friends where the only bond. is time but is it a friend simply. because you've known somebody for a long. time they give you no joy give you no. inspiration and if you have good. friendship you will not feel lonely so. yes friends are allowed to change and. it's never too late to make a friend so. how do I make friends I guarantee you. you will make friends by learning how to. be that's all it takes.

we've just hit 6 million subscribers on. the D of Co um so me and my team would. like to do something we've never done. before as little thank you and we're. calling it The dire ofo subscriber. raffle and here is how it works every. episode this month we're going to pick. three current subscribers at random and. we'll send one of you a 1,000 voucher. one of you tickets to come and watch the. D SE behind the scenes live with our. team and one of you will have a. 10-minute phone call with me to discuss. whatever you want to talk about if. you're a subscriber you're in the raffle. thank you from the bottom of my heart.

for allowing me to do something that me. and my team love doing so much it is the. greatest honor of my lifetime and I hope. it I hope it continues uh off into the. Future Let's get to the. [Music]. episode. Simon hi Stephen good to see you again. good to see you again it's interesting. because we've had a lot of conversations. and um ahead of the conversation today I. really asked myself what what are the. subjects and themes that are front of.

mind for me at the moment and subjects. that I'm struggling to understand and. grapple with and find Solutions and. answers to and the sort of macro picture. that I have in my head at the moment um. is that there's quite a lot of struggle. going on because the world has changed. quite profoundly and the struggle is. showing up in a variety of ways we're. seeing it in our mental health which I. know you refer to as mental Fitness. we're seeing it in suicidality we're. seeing it in the the rise in loneliness. which is something we talked about last. time but also now there's these other. forces at play like artificial.

intelligence which feels like a threat. um in increas in digitalization and a. falling connection what is your what is. your take on This Moment In Time the. times we're living. in these are complicated. times and complex. times and I think they are more. important leaderless. times um we're seeing the rise of. populist movements and strongman.

leaders not necessarily because they are. the great leaders of the day but because. I think people are desperately lacking. for meaning and purpose and to feel like. we're going somewhere we want to be led. people want to be led whether it's young. people who are. protesting on their school. campuses or whether during covid it was. anti vaxers or antim.

maskers you know whether it was brexit. or you know I think they're all very. much the same whether it's the left side. of politics or the right side of. politics which is they're all basically. anti-establishment. movements and you usually see. anti-establishment. when people feel forgotten and left out. by whatever the establishment is doing. in other words they they perceive that. the establishment looking after for. themselves so I think we leave in we.

live in visionless and leaderless times. that's the big challenge of the day and. uh and so we find ourselves reactive to. each other and against things but few. people can say what they're for so many. of my guests have come here and then. after the conversation have turned to me. and said they're concerned about their. younger child often they reference their. younger son because they talk about the. rise in the sort of toxic male. influences online um and it kind of.

coincides with what you just said about. looking for leaders and now you know. some of those leaders that were looking. for offering us a blueprint of what it. is to be a responsible stable human that. involves buying a Lamborghini having. multiple wives and showing up in a. certain way and I've had so many. conversations in fact one of my guests. the other the other week brought me a. dossier called heroic. masculinity and um it was a woman and. she says please can you have more. conversations about this subject and. passed it to me and the reason she's.

saying that is because she's concerned. her son is growing up in a world where. he's not going to know what it means to. be a good man or who are the role. models like who are the strong male or. female role models who are teaching us. values who are teaching US. service who's teaching us kindness and. empathy in in leaderless times and lost. times we will follow things that make us. feel good right wealth makes us feel. feel good conspicuous consumption makes.

us feel good because you get that hit of. Serotonin and and dopamine this this is. the reason why I've become really. fascinated by the concept of friendship. you know I haven't written a book in a. many years and so I've started writing. again and uh I'm writing a book with a. friend my friend will gadera um who. wrote unreasonable. hospitality and we've decided to write. about friendship because when you think. about all of the problems that we're. facing today mental Fitness Mental. Health um Rising suicide Rising anxiety.

depression addiction I mean take your. list even people's obsession with. longevity and everyone's looking for a. biohack for all those things and there's. one biohack that's better than all of. those all of the things that we're. trying which is friendship people with. close friendships are healthier they. live. longer they have better coping. mechanisms which means they better deal. with stress and I'll give you one an. amazing thing so there's um a very. famous experiment that's done I think in. like the s all of our sort of.

understanding of addiction is based on. the study basically they put a rat in a. cage and they gave it um plain water or. they gave it water laced with drugs and. it tasted both it got addicted to the. water laced with drugs and eventually. drank the that water until it died right. and so this became our understanding of. addiction many years later not that long. ago another scientist said hold on. there's a problem with this experiment a.

rat like a person is a social animal and. you took this social animal and you put. it by itself and then offered it drugs. so you created loneliness and then you. offered the drug right if you want to. make it a good experiment you have to. create the right context so what it did. it created they created something called. rat Park where basically what they did. is they created a new cage filled with. things to do and mazes and wheels and. and other rats and they were social and. the Rats tasted both Waters the one. laced with morphine and the one that was.

just plain they taste and they drank. enough of the morphine laced one to get. addicted and then they stopped it it. diminishes how much they drank and they. only drank the plain water so basically. when you have healthy relationships we. are less likely to become addicted when. we are lonely we are more likely to. create addiction right friendship is the. thing that actually protects us and then. if you look at even if you do become. addicted right let's take the the worst. case scenario so let's look at. alcoholism right alcohol ISM um we know.

that to beat alcoholism you join AA. Community we and everybody talks about. the importance of community and finding. your community right but Alcoholics. Anonymous knows that there's these 12. steps and if you master 11 of the 12. Steps the disease is probably going to. get you but if you master the 12th step. the final step you're more likely to. overcome the disease so what's the 12th. step the 12th step is to help another. alcoholic to become someone's sponsor. and in other words to become a friend in.

other words Community you find Community. but then the the final step of beating. the disease is a friend where where you. replace the community with a friend and. you have both and we think Community is. the thing but it's not enough yes you. can create belonging with community and. people where we started talking about it. where people are latching onto these. these anti-establishment populist. movements it's giving them a sense of. community it's giving them a sense of of. of shared Purpose with a group of people.

right but it's also providing um new new. social connections one of the things we. don't do is we are not good at making. friends and we're not good at looking. after friends there's an entire industry. to help people like us become better. leaders I I I'm a part of it I write. books about it right there's an entire. industry to help people be better. parents and if you're going to have a. child if you got a child you got a child. with problems you know you read all the. books about how be how to be a better. parent.

there are no books or precious few books. to teach us and there's no industry to. teach us how to be a better friend like. are you a good friend are you a good. friend to your friends are your friends. good to you you know who do you do you. call people when you are stuck and down. or do you make Tik Tok videos by. yourself which you know and you get I. mean literally people who are depressed. make Tik Tok videos by themselves I. don't know how many times they re-shoot.

that either to post it to get the. validation for their feelings but to. call a friend and say the same thing. you're struggling with is actually more. difficult why doesn't the industry exist. because typically we take it for granted. yeah yeah so the demand isn't there for. those kinds of things but that's what. that's the problem which is I think the. demand is is is is there and we don't. realize it right like we know that our. relationships fail and our marriages. fail so there's an entire industry to. help us maintain better relationships. will friendships fail and we think we. friends yet we still struggle and feel.

lonely if you have good friendship you. will not feel lonely you may have. moments of loneliness and in those. periods you will pick up the phone and. say to your. friend I need you I'm lonely and your. friends will be there you will feel not. alone right or um and you and I have. talked about this about you will feel. that someone will get in the mud with. you and I think the problem is is we. don't give intention to Friendship we so. think about it and you and I are both. guilty of this in fact I would argue.

that everybody's guilty of this which is. we've got plans booked with a friend. let's call it a lunch a work thing comes. up we call up the friend I got a work. thing and the reason we keep bumping our. friends is because they'll understand. they're our. friends so why aren't we prioritizing. our friendships why aren't we saying to. the work thing I'm sorry I've got a. thing I've got if we had another meeting. we would say sorry I've I've got an. appointment I can't make it so why don't. we treat our friends with the same.

intentionality that we treat any other. meeting so one of the things that will. did for a friend that I thought was. genius brilliant beautiful will gadera. who I'm writing the book with um Will's. friend's dad. died um will texted him and said. uh I feel for you I know what you're. going through I lost my mom at an early. age um I'm sure you're being undated. with calls and. texts so I'm not going to call you.

today but what I will do is I will call. you every single day at 9:45 a.m. do not. feel obligated to pick up I don't mind. if you don't but when you're ready know. that I'm calling you and for the next I. think it was 3 months 8 months something. he called every single day at 9:45 a.m. and for the first week his friend didn't. pick up at all and then after the first. week he picked up every day and they.

talked every day for months like think. about the. intentionality that somebody who loves. and cares about you so much that they. will call you every single day at 9:45. just so that you can see their name pop. up and the caller ID to know that you're. not alone I mean it can it brings me to. tears just thinking about it like how. many of us are are that good a. friend you know I want friends like. that here's a good question like what's. a friend like what makes a good friend.

like I don't even know if we have a. definition of that you know I've been. asking people and somebody said to me. well somebody who's there for you in you. know to support you in the hard times. that's a real friend right and I got. thinking and I talked to somebody else. she has a friend who she calls Mr shoden. Freud because he seems to love when. things go wrong so in hard. times he's always there he's always. there in hard times he's got he the.

shoulder to lean on he's giving advice. but in Good Times he's nowhere to be. seen and so what what happens is it. creates this horrible sort of. codependent relationship that you want. to keep the hard times because that. wonderful human being is always there so. you never want to let go and you become. codependent and so you realize that. there's something called a fair wethered. friend who's only there in the good. times but be equally cynical and. suspicious of the fou weathered friends. who's only there in the hard times. because somehow it makes them feel good. about themselves but they're not there. for the good times and so you realize.

what's the what's the value of good time. versus bad time so. yes yes you and I have friends that in. hard times we would call them but I. would bet money that you have even fewer. friends that you want to text out of the. blue and say I won an. award right think about that like if. something goes wrong I've got a group of. friends probably I've probably got a you. know a dozen people I could say and say. I need your help things have gone hard. horribly wrong I I need your advice but.

if something amazing happens to me that. number probably shrinks down to four. that I'm going to text out of the blue. and go something amazing happened today. and not feel like I'm bragging not feel. like I'm trying to overwhelm them or. prove them that I'm better than them but. knowing that they will be so happy for. me and so I've started thinking that. maybe a friend isn't just the person. who's there for you in the hard times. but the person you can go to in the. great times think about that I have. fewer friends that I can go to when. things go perfectly then I would go to.

and things go. wrong so are those my true friends so. this is on the journey I'm on I'm trying. to understand what friend means and I'm. trying to understand the responsibility. we have to look after those friends um. you look at all the longevity studies. you know all the Blue Zone work sure. they eat healthy sure they walk a lot. but they also eat with each other. whereas you look at some of the people. who are promoting sort of longevity and. all of those bioh hacks and how you have. to exercise the certain way and eat the.

certain way you'll find a lot of them. are pretty unhappy people and pretty. lonely people I don't think they're. going to live very long right so here's. a crazy crazy one here's a crazy crazy. one physiologically right what are the. most important organs to keep strong for. longevity like we know the data right so. I'll tell you what they are right number. one heart obviously that makes perfect. sense right you got to have a healthy. heart if you want to live a long time. right second one lungs gotta have.

healthy lungs to live a long time cardio. and all the rest of it right don't smoke. like we know that makes perfect sense. you know what the third most important. organ is I didn't know I was going to. say the brain but the. thighs thigh muscles are the are the so. if you have a healthy heart healthy. lungs and healthy thighs statistically. you're more likely to live longer I know. I said the same thing thighs do you want. to know why because historically thighs.

are the most important muscle. responsible for what motion walking. right not exercise Social going to visit. your friends before there were cars. before there were trains we had to walk. to go visit our friends and so people. who are mobile if you're more mobile. you're more likely to main friend. maintain friendships which means you're. likely to live longer so the three most. important organs to keep healthy. historically as human beings heart lungs. and thighs for Mobility thighs for. sociability. which I think is amazing that we never.

thought about so all of these things. that you know technology has. interrupted um mass transportation cars. you know uh Tech uh social media all of. these things they've interrupted our. ability to make friends proper friends. where you can look each other in the eye. you and I could do this over Zoom it. wouldn't feel the. same but you the macro so the remote. work culture the rise in as you say. screens and phones.

optimizing interaction out of our Lives. I mean like you know if you think about. social networking or Uber Eats or I. don't know. deliveroo um you you're living your life. behind a screen in White Walls now and. it's it feels like it's becoming harder. and harder and harder to make friends. also to find someone romantic but to. make friends in fact what's the. interesting thing is sometimes when I. come off stage I'll have it's always. young men come up to me and they'll get. right up in my personal space and I go. this is strange and then they'll say. something to me like um how do I make.

friends and they and I I respect them so. much for saying it because I can see how. difficult it is for them to utter that. those words and I reflect on I was doing. something at Canary Warf and a kid in. the front row in a crowd of 500 people. they're all wearing suits because. they're working in the corporate world. he's surrounded by 500 of his peers his. age in the front row past the microphone. his question to me on stage is how do I. make friends yeah and there's 499 people. sat next to him that are his age yep and. he's asking in the front row how do I.

make friends and I it was it's so moving. because you know looking looking down on. that individual surrounded by people I'm. like well you know you the brain the. simple brain goes well just turn to the. person next you introduce yourself but. clearly that was. not not the answer because if it was so. simple he would just do that and you. said something interesting as well which. I think maybe overlays with that which. is that we've kind of like lost the art. or the skill of making friends y what. would you have said to that kid so I'll.

tell you by way of a story how I would. answer that so A friend of mine was uh. struggling uh her career it wasn't going. as well as she' wanted and her marriage. was in a bad place in other words when. it rains it pours like she couldn't get. a break right and she was in a really. bad place and so she knows what I do for. a living so she said she asked me can. you help can I come and talk to you and. get some advice and I said of course. and so we had a standing Wednesday.

meeting get together we got together. every Wednesday for 90 minutes and she. would tell me what was going on in her. life I gave her some advice she felt. amazing when she left me it lasted about. two days and then she'd go back into her. slump and then we get together the next. Wednesday she'd feel amazing for about. two days and she'd go back into her. slump and this went on for months this. was our pattern right so I thought I was. doing good work and then it then I just. rinse and repeat. right then I remembered my own work and.

I remembered Alcoholics Anonymous which. is the final step the 12th step is. service helping somebody who's. struggling with the problem you're. struggling with right is the way to. actually help you overcome your problem. so I I have struggles I have needs I. have um uh insecurities and I don't have. a safe Outlet to talk to so I she's one. of my closest friends in the world I. trust her implicitly so I said to her. can I need the coaching as well can we. split our time 45 minutes for me 45. minutes for you she agreed and it was I.

was I knew what I was doing right there. was kind of an experiment happening. which I didn't let on which is I wanted. her to help me as a way of helping. herself and so what end up happening was. it did ceased to be 4545 I we got. together and for 90 minutes we talked. about me and then the next Wednesday we. got together and for 90 minutes we. talked about me and then we got together. and for 90 minutes we talked about me. and within about three or four weeks her. life was full on back on track. fully back on track because when you.

help someone with a thing that you're. struggling with you actually end up. solving your own problems and so what I. would say to that kid is find somebody. who's struggling to make a friend and. help them make a friend make it an act. of service because fundamentally if we. dig down deep the the true skill that. we've lost is service we've. overemphasized taking over giving we've. overemphasized selfish over selfless. selfish is important taking is important. but not at the expense of giving um and.

not the expense of serving right we've. lost we're out of balance and I think we. we've lost the ability to serve Society. we've lost the ability to serve each. other um you know the Prime Minister. cores for national service and literally. the whole country erupts and says are. you trying not to get reelected you know. um what did you think of that I thought. it was brilliant I do believe in in in. service it doesn't have to be military. service you know when we say national. service go be a teacher in the inner. city for a year you know go go work on a.

one day a. month in a. hospital go work for one weekend one day. per month in a in in hospice and pal of. care right serve other human beings who. are underserved or forgotten serve your. nation in some way sh per put you know. let the government give you a list of 20. or 30 options of things you can do. um and say that if you do these things.

it makes you eligible for you know. scholarships it makes you eligible for. whatever you know um I'm a great. believer just like you can get at least. in the United States very very generous. packages for Education if you serve in. the military give very generous packages. for Education if you do any of these. other things teaching you know like we. have problems you know we we we're. losing teachers okay well we can fill. those gaps why why is do you think that. would help our society at large over the. coming years if we because I think skill. that the skills that people learn when.

they serve a they learn hard. work but they learn to be a part of. something larger than themselves and you. talk to anybody who goes off and does um. volunteer work or takes a gap year where. they go and do service or anyone who's. gone to combat right and you talk to if. you talk to soldiers uh or Marines who. who who've been in the [ __ ] none of them. want to go to combat it's not fun. there's very very very few combat.

related suicides in other words suicides. don't happen in a combat situation they. come they happen when they come back. home right um and they all weirdly have. warm feelings about their time in combat. and it's not the shooting and the fear. it's the intense responsibility and. awesome feeling to be there to look. after each other not just to feel looked. after but to look after another I talked. to Navy Seals I talked to Seal Team 6.

and I wanted to understand the why of. the SEAL Teams these this is one of the. highest performing organizations on the. planet right and you think it's going to. be about Brawn and courage and all the. stupid things that the outside world. thinks that the Commandos and the. special operators have it's actually not. that at all which is they care for each. other more than others think possible. it's their love of each other that makes. them special operators and their courage.

doesn't come from raw courage I've asked. many I've talked to many many many seals. and special operators about this they. they don't have just raw courage to run. into danger and all of this stuff it's. that they fear letting down their. comrades more than. dying and we saw it happen recently. where a seal mission one of the seals. fell into the water and another seal. dived in to catch him and they both died. right they feel they fear letting each.

other down more than dying that that. cannot be described anything else. there's no other word to capture that. feeling than. love that is love at a level that few of. us will ever understand and that love is. so deep that a lot of them have failed. marriages because when their wives say. to them it's either me or the or your. fellow seals they choose their fellow. seals that's. love that's love and even my even in my. world like you and I you and I have.

colleagues and co-workers in the. military they have brothers and sisters. those relationships are real and I. remember the first time A friend of mine. in uniform called me brother on the. phone and he said Hey brother was the. first time he called me brother and I. felt it that that you don't use that. term loosely it's not a it's not just a. generic term of endearment you earn to. be called brother or. sister and I I remember when he called. me brother that it meant something and. this guy this guy this friend of mine. he's still active Judy he's a combat.

hero he's risked his life he's put. himself in harm way he's saved the lives. of people he's an absolute Warrior right. he's a he is by any definition a. freaking badass [ __ ] Warrior right. and he was the first. man who said to me I love you we got off. the phone he goes we just saying goodbye. to each other we had a nice long. conversation we got up there and he goes. I love you he didn't say love you. he didn't say love you he said I love.

you that's real and we we hedge because. we're afraid of our emotions we're. afraid of expressing ourselves to each. other we say things like that we say. love you even love you say those three. words to somebody they are. excruciatingly excruciatingly difficult. unless you actually mean it I love you.

and it was so powerful that now every. time he and I talk and we talk politics. and we talk Global stuff and we talk. leadership we have you know and then at. the end of our calls I'll say I'll talk. to you real soon I love you he goes I. love you too that's how we end our phone. calls and I started experimenting I. started saying those words to the. especially the men in my life that I. love and care about desperately my male. friends it's easier to say to a woman is. there's less of a stigma right.

and guys who are guy some of my guy. friends who are if you met them you. would describe them as not very warm you. would describe them as distant or cold. or guarded and they. are um and I. remember taking the risk saying to them. when we got off the phone or when I said. goodbye to them when I was hanging out. with them I said I love. you. and and in in not in very short order. they started saying it.

back and we would hug. differently and we would kiss each other. on the. cheek you know and like one of my. friends who he's a cold guy he's not. he's not warm he's lovely and smart and. fantastic and funny but he's not. warm it took him a long time and I. always said it him I love you I love you. and he he goes yeaha okay. and I would like hug him and kiss him.

with the cheek goodbye he's like okay. and then he started saying I love you. back. and this is what I've learned from the. highest performing teams on the planet. this is what I've learned from people. who understand service that you cannot. you cannot have. service without developing some sort of. love and so I think I think to go all. the way back to the question from that. kid in the front row how do I make.

friends you can't make a friend until. you learn how to serve because. friendship is fundamentally service. friendship is an act of service and if. you don't know the skill of service then. you probably don't know how to be a. friend let alone make a friend I think. you have to learn to be a friend before. you can make a friend because only. people only want to be your friend if. you know how to be their friend right. which is not like having fun which is. not like going out and get pissed with. your mates that's. fun those are m. are those friends that you love maybe.

sometimes sometimes those overlap that's. the other problem and I I live in. America where you meet somebody once and. they call you friend and the problem is. I think we overuse the word friend right. like if you have a a mild melanoma and. you have staged for liver cancer we call. both those things cancer clearly they're. not the same thing and I think we have. the same problem with the word friend. like somebody you hang out with casually. it's it's a laugh you know we call that. person friend but then somebody who we. have deep love for and we would be there. for them no matter what we call that.

person friend best friend doesn't seem. to capture it either and so I think we. need more words like I've started using. the word acquaintance I've started using. the word work friend uh or deal friend. that's like in finance right I like them. I get along with them I enjoy them I but. if we weren't working if we weren't if. our companies weren't working together. would I hang out with them as much. probably not I probably would make less. of an effort right. are you are you religious I believe in.

belief what does I believe in the. importance of believing in something and. so for those who choose Faith. traditional Faith as the thing to. believe in and offer guidance I think. that's good um for people who find cause. whether it's social cause um or some. type of other cause to feel a part of I. I think I think it is essential that we. believe in something I I believe in. belief it's funny cuz all the the. subjects you were talking about then. about community and other subjects that.

kind of intersect with that service and. purpose these all came inherent within. religion yeah religion gave us all of. these once upon a time now in the. absence of religion like and the rise in. digitalization we're struggling to find. those things and we're trying to make. them like it's such a good question. right which is religion provided a code. and. arguably a code that you so let let so. here's the example right so. take the.

victorians there were some incredibly. wealthy victorians who gave tremendous. amounts of their wealth wealth back to. society they established Charities they. built hospitals in fact many of the. institutions that exist today were. established by wealthy victorians the. same is true in the United States the. carnegies and the Rockefellers right and. I went and looked this up I went and. looked at the tax code from the Carnegie. and Rockefeller days or the George. Eastman days and I went and looked up. the tax code in the UK as well and there.

was no sophisticated tax code in other. words there was no um uh refund or. rebate or deduction for giving to. charity zero zero there was no tax. benefit in the UK or the US for giving. to charity and in the conversations with. the carnegies The Rockefellers and some. of the wealthy victorians they all said. that they believe that they had a quote. unquote moral obligation to give back to. society and it was born out of religion. without a doubt they were God-fearing. without a doubt right but they believed.

in moral obligations to return their. wealth and give something back to. societies establishing universities. hospitals and the rest of it right now. it seems that people give charity if. they can get a tax benefit from it and. the question is is where is the moral. obligation coming from and so when we. talk about the fact that people are less. religious today but you I think your. your assertion is correct people are are. abandoning the traditional church. membership is down and I would argue.

that uh because the churches have lost. relevance right like take the Catholic. church for example like you're trying to. appeal to Young People by wearing 400y. old clothes and speaking in. Latin maybe we genes and speak English. or whatever the local language is like. if you want to be quote unquote relevant. you're not changing the faith abandoning. the faith you're not you're not. Blasphemous by changing the the the what. you're wearing and and and and the.

language you're speaking in you're still. preaching the faith but you'll find. yourself more attractive I had the. opportunity to go to Kanye Sunday. service back when it was okay to do. anything with Kanye um uh I just was. invited as a as as I was a friend of a. friend and I went to the Sunday service. right and it was I don't care if you're. religious or not that was a religious. experience did you ever go I did yeah it. is it's unbelievable yeah and and you. could and and for those when I say for.

those who haven't gone like anybody. could go you just to get on the signup. sheet like you could just sign anyone. could go was open to the general public. it just sold out quick I mean it was. free but the the list filled up quickly. um and uh basically what happened is. there's a there's a band a choir in the. middle and the parishioners sat all the. way in a circle around the outside you. sat. there your body was consumed by song and. music. and it was and you know there's like.

Sufi tradition where. music becomes the thing the way you the. way you find spirituality the way you. find meditation or like the whirling. dervishes who spin around in the music. and the and it's the repetition and it. was sitting in this beautiful place. consumed by songs that went on for 10. minutes each that you found spirituality. whether you had traditional religion you. know in your life or not. and um there was community and I I for.

one went with a friend and uh I think. that's what traditional Church doesn't. realize which is you can modernize old. beliefs and if you do that you will find. relevance amongst young people um but. young people are looking for something. there's something called Hillsong which. is an American church but it's the joke. is it's like where all the pretty people. go to pray um it's young and it's it's. relevant and like the pastor has like. got a beard and an earring and you know.

jeans and you know duck Mars and there's. a rock band and but they preach the. gospel and it has and it fills up entire. Arenas um so people are looking to. belong to something and they're looking. to believe in something and they're. looking to be led and they're looking. for community and they're looking for um. um codes of conduct and values that they. can that they can um uh keep alive in. their own lives and their own traditions.

and um there are precious few of those. places left which is why I think people. are desperately looking for them and. latching onto kind of the first thing. that shows up I think it's one of the. biggest business opportunities of our. time as well I say this at multiple. levels I'm talking about if I'm an. entrepreneur thinking about where to. start a business but also if I'm an. entrepreneur and I'm thinking about how. to run my company and my culture I it's. funny this I've got one particular. opinion that went out of fashion and now. has come into fashion over the course of. the pandemic which is I always believed. in doing things in person and having.

people together even this podcast never. did it over Zoom even through the. pandemic we just two meter distance and. get if someone couldn't come in and we. weren't going to release I just didn't. want to because it's what's the point. right but also in terms of company. culture I think companies now that offer. I'm in so many interviews I don't think. people would believe I'm in so many. interviews where the candidate asks me. to check that they're going to going I. was in one yesterday with the young. 25-year-old lady um she asked she. checked that people were going to come. in the office and be together it was. almost like she wasn't going to take the.

job unless we off we were a community we. she was talking about run clubs she was. talking about reform of plates she was. talking about that she likes to do. climbing walls and she wanted to check. that we we were in the office together. and I think you know good for her you. know what I mean but like the the the. narrative through the pandemic. especially led by the west coast of. America was that remote forever and um. you know all that kind of thing but it's. I've always believed that the. fundamental needs of human being will. mean that connection and being together.

will be will prevail yeah I I agree with. that but but but how much damage has to. be done until we get there you know and. I think we have a responsibility to help. people like to to bring people together. so one of the trends that I'm seeing in. the states at least is young people. especially those who started their. careers in the pandemic or slightly. before the pandemic who kind of fell in. love with the whole room the Romance of. the you know remote work thing.

um are struggling a lot of them are. struggling with mental health challenges. with mental fitness challenges and when. they're forced to come into work which. is actually an antidote once they get. there they freak out and they think that. it's the the workspace that's making it. more stressful but it's not it's that. you've been at home and alone so much. that it's like a shock to the system to. come back in you know it's like it's. like when you're out of shape and you go. to the gym it really hurts you have to. stick with it you know um it's like when.

you get off drugs and you go through. withdrawal you makes you want to go back. to the drug right and so my fear is that. the connection that it's the being at. home in a remote work environment is the. thing that's making me mentally unfit. and it's not the coming back into work. even though it hurts and it's a shock. when I come in and I run away from it I. I have to I have to stick with it I have. to going to the gym I have to stay off. the juice like you know um do you think.

this is in part because the office is. outdated it was a concept that was. designed like you know multiple decades. ago and the needs of the human being in. the modern world if we're saying it's. much more about connection and Community. like the office itself should be. redesigned it should be it should serve. more as a community like Center I mean. versus just a place to the office has. changed multiple times to reflect the. times I mean it used to be you know the. executives had the corner offices with. Windows and the rest of us had you know.

cubes in the middle and then at some. point we started giving the nice offices. to the to younger people on the outside. and then we made the outside offices the. conference rooms and then we went to. open plan I mean like the offices have. taken multiple different cultural. changes rightfully so the office should. reflect the times you're right you know. one of my favorite ones is if you visit. the Pixar. offices the way Steve Jobs helped design. the Pixar office is they put the. bathrooms in the middle middle as most. most officers have the bathrooms on the.

outside and they put the bathrooms in. the middle so no matter where you worked. you had to walk past other people to go. to the L and at some point dur the day. everyone has to go to the L MH and so. that was done on purpose to force you to. interact and and have. Serendipity um but little things like. that um communal eading I'm a huge fan. of communal eating I'm a huge fan of. like let's go let's let's eat together. um uh you know I built my office to feel. like a living room there's like.

different living room areas you can sit. up here you can sit over there but it's. just couches and people sit wherever. they want and you know people have their. quote unquote their desk you know where. they like to sit and there's back rooms. if you need to make calls but it's all. just couches it's all super comfy it. feels like it feels like a home if. people want to work at home great here's. a home literally you walk into my office. I mean you've been there it's a home. it's a home yeah it's it's a home and uh. cuz I want people to have have that home. experience we've got a fridge and a.

kitchen and you can you know I can. imagine the rebuttal to a lot of people. that are listening to us where they. genuinely they have an hour commute to. go into some horrible little cubicle. surround they have to wear a suit they. get no Freedom so my bias is that. obviously I'm the CEO of the company so. I have you know these freedoms and our. our culture is much more relaxed and. free but there's a lot of people that. their relationship with work is it's. awful it's like an awful place to be. yeah and I think so the question is. great okay so instead of rejecting it. how would you redesign it to make you. want to come in okay you don't want to.

wear a suit don't wear a suit maybe you. only have to wear a suit if you have a. meeting with a client that seems if if. you're in that kind of business yeah you. know I live in Los Angeles where. everybody dress likes everybody dresses. like 16y olds but you know that seems. fair wear a suit only when you're. meeting with a client if that if your. business requires that um otherwise. where whatever um you know so and so. again it goes back to service which is I. think that people have to earn the right. to complain right and you earn the right. to complain by in some small way to fix. the problem yourself not exhausting.

every possibility like you're not. allowed to complain about politics. unless you've at least voted right you. don't have to have joined a movement you. don't have to have campaigned just the. minimum the minimum then you can. complain about anything you like and so. if you've tried to fix the office then. you can complain about the office if you. just sit at home and whine about. it like maybe like get involved and. don't do it for yourself. here's we go back to service don't do it. for yourself do it for the other people.

who hate coming to work with an hourlong. commute to sit in a little cubicle and. wear a suit that they don't want to wear. do it for the people you love do it for. the people you care about do it for the. person to the left and the person to the. right don't do it for yourself you. selfish bastard right do it for someone. else to make their feeling of coming to. work better how can you make it feel. better for somebody else you work with. to come to work and that's what we're. missing we're all about ourselves and. yet we've forgotten email is another one.

you know why you get so many emails cuz. you send so many emails stop BC seeing. everybody stop C seeing everybody like. when somebody says what time is the. meeting and you reply all and write 3:00. or what do you want for lunch and you. reply and write chicken please like you. made everybody open that email you. thoughtless bastard right why don't you. help everybody else get to inbox zero. instead of worrying about you getting to. inbox zero so in other words pick up the. phone when possible. you know send few emails take people off.

the CC list like I get an email it's got. five people CC I realize that my reply. only really matters to two people and I. take people off the CC list you know. because I want them to have fewer. emails because otherwise everybody's. hitting you know reply all and then. we're all you know suffering from email. bankruptcy the um anyway acts of service. acts of service I mean there's so many. little things there's so many little. things um stupid things stupid things I.

was walking down the streets of New York. and a guy was parking his. car and uh it happened to be a huge. space big enough for two cars right like. and he parked right in the middle and it. wasn't like it was his brand new cut he. was like afraid of getting it bumped. turned it just it was just a car right. and I said to him hey I sort of like. tapped on the sort of like wave down his. window like I waved like hey just so you. know there's a ton of room behind you or. in front of you if you move your car up.

or back you'll make room for another car. and he goes there's no room I'm like no. no no no I'm standing out here there's. you got like five feet in front of you. like there's plenty of room I I'll I'll. guide you if you want you know I was. being super nice about it and he goes I. think it's just fine I'm like no no no. no I like you another car could he goes. are you trying to park your car he says. to me I said no but I I've tried to park. in New York before and I know it's hard. to find a space so you know maybe it'd. be nice to pull your car up and let. another the guy would hear nothing of it. he turned his car off and got out of the. car and walked away and like that's what.

I mean you know which is you know here's. the advice I wanted to tell him I didn't. say this but I wanted to be like hey. just can I offer you an observation you. live in the world like you live in the. world there are other. people in the world and I'm not asking. you to give up your weekends and work in. hospitals I'm not asking you to join the. military I'm not asking you to give up.

your salary and become a teacher I'm not. asking you to do any of those things I'm. asking you to consider that somebody. else might want to par and it's an act. of service to like move your car to make. a little room for somebody who you don't. know do you think that individualism. is hurting us on an individual level I. mean is that of course you want to know. why we're lonely cuz we've we've. architected Our Lives to be lonely.

of course it's hurting us we are social. animals who've over indexed un rugged. individualism with hero wise. CEOs like I love you you're great you're. wonderful but people consider you a hero. and their business Guru blah blah blah I. know for a fact that you didn't do it. alone I know for a fact that you've got. teams of people who make you look good. what are you talking about I know I know. for a fact that people took bets on you. took risks on you I know for a fact that.

people made introductions for you I knew. when you had nothing sure you had Moxy. sure you had talent but if it weren't. for people who tried supported helped. you know opened a door there would be no. Steven Bartlett of course even my. parents the first people I think about. is my parents I don't know why they. cared so much about me I was just I feel. like you know kids feel they objectively. look like such a. burden I feel the way you know what I. mean I was like why why would you do. that yeah why would my mom and dad care. so much about this little bundle of. cells I don't understand they would just. like kill themselves to you know but it.

matters but we know parenting matters we. know parents that build up their kids. confidences uh really really you know. parents that are capable of building. their kids confidence really really. matters you know as opposed to telling a. kid constantly to do everything wrong. like that'll hurt the kid for the rest. of their life and they're going to have. to do tremendous amount of work to. overcome that you know it's interesting. even on this overlaid with this is the. idea that populations in the western. world are actually declining because by. having less and less kids we're actually. making it more about ourselves we want. to work longer we want to achieve our.

career goals and now having kids and. that sort of active service of parenting. has now become deprioritized and it's a. real problem for the Western world. because of the you know aging population. and very often for selfish reasons like. I want to live my life 100% yeah um yeah. yeah I mean I think to your point I. think we. have we have forgotten that we're social. animals I mean like just go back a few. years a few decades. right so second world war right.

um the camaraderie I mean think about. what happened in in America and in in. Britain during the second world war so. during the Blitz the number of people. who sent their children to the. countryside and they stayed back to. support the war effort okay they didn't. move to the countryside with their. children they could have they sent their. think about the insanity of that right. now that parents sent their children to. the country to be safe to be raised by. another family with the full expectation.

that they would that they may never see. their kids again because they might die. in The. Blitz right like that is. incomprehensible to a modern day and yet. that made total sense that we stayed. back to support the war effort and to be. a part of it and we sent the kids to the. country in the United. States more people died by Suicide who. didn't get called to. action the shame of not being call to. serve was more overwhelming than the.

call to service there were more suicides. in the United States from people who. didn't get called to serve what does. this say about the the genz the. millennial now that's trying to decide. which direction to take their life in. but you know all the it says you know go. be a lawyer is the clear incentive. because I'll get paid more or my you. know people would be more proud of me on. Instagram if you're saying that service. and it also sounds like into intertwined. within there a little bit of like. challenge is so Central to being happy.

how does like the young person decide. like make build their life road map what. do they what do they need to be adding. to that road map got this kid in my head. that is currently behind a video game. screen he's spending all his time on the. internet watching um certain male. influences that are telling him to be. individualistic he doesn't have a. romantic relationship in the world. doesn't have any friends he's not really. leaving the house much not going to the. gym at all often refer to these IND. idual is like being incels on the. internet and the rise in that type of.

individual according to a lot of people. I've spoken to is is rising because of. the nature of the world and. disconnection and lack of friendship and. all these things you know what' you say. to that person who's probably a guy. looking at the statistics well well you. and you've talked to you've talked to um. Scott Galloway yeah you know he's he. talks a lot about this you know um and I. don't think we talk enough about this as. it relates to extremism and terrorism. and things like that you know. where you take a 24 25 26 27 year old uh.

incel. virgin with no social life there's a lot. of pent up frustration there and that. comes out in all kinds of screwed up. ways usually anger usually victimization. addictions addictions you know vengeful. Behavior you know antisocial behavior um. um and if you look at you know even just. in the and this this is not a current. statistic this is decades and decades. and decades but you look at sort of the. rise of uh ex religious extremism in the.

Middle East you know you take a shame. based society where you're 24 25 26. years old you're living at home you're a. virgin um the only way you can leave the. house is if you like get a job and if. you get you won't get a girlfriend and. I.E a wife I.E have sex until you get a. job and move out of the house and so. this there's the and and and and you're. in a in a shame based society like the. the pressures are extreme and the anger. is Extreme um so I think yeah I think. this idea of not knowing how to make. friends and finding online community of.

people who are you know where we all. support each other's. victimhood is is incendiary I could. never. imagine Simon cynic in one of your books. telling people that they were losers. that they were losers and that they suck. oh yeah never do that but when I look at. Andrew Tate's approach in his videos. multiple videos and tweets he really. mocks the people that he's speaking to. he says your life sucks you're an. absolute loser and then he tries to. offer them a road map yeah and it seems. to work yeah of course it works why cuz.

you're validating their feelings of. victimhood you're affirming it and then. offering them a way out um because if. you simply say everyone can be a winner. like and I don't feel like a winner. you're not talking to me but if I say. you've been forgotten like look we we we. do it in work all the time it's like the. corporation doesn't care about you the. corporation prioritize its profits over. you you're like yeah like you're. disposable yeah it's kind of a. rhetorical clickbait right because what.

you're doing is you're validating. someone's feelings you make them feel. not alone in their loneliness and. victimhood and then you offer them but. you're not just berading them you're. offering them a validation and then a. and a an a way out of that feeling um. and it's not wrong it's it's too much. like it's totally fine for you and I to. say look if if if you feel like your. career isn't going anywhere and yet you.

have ideas that you think of how you can. do it better maybe maybe an entrepreneur. life is for you like we're we're saying. similar things the difference is is. we're not berating people right but we. we definitely want people to feel. seen right um I just think you know when. you play in the extremes you're playing. in the extremes and so you're going to. get extreme behaviors extreme reactions. you know you you could do the same thing. to the same people without riling them.

up because emotions are a powerful thing. right and so you're playing with the. Delta I'm going to push you down even. harder you know and then I'm going to. show you that I can lift you even higher. and I must you know that must make me. the savior because the Delta is so much. bigger you know if someone is listening. now and they are they have no friends. and they're lonely MH and they're. also and there's someone else that's. listening and they are single. romantically single mhm. the first step to solving those two.

conundrums finding a friend and finding. a romantic partner in terms of where I. go like the physical location that I go. to in a modern world where. digitalization has just you know social. networking exists and Tinder exists what. is that place the location because I. have so many conversations with people. in my life that are struggling on both. fronts to find a friend and to find a. partner where they're saying I just hate. dating apps and then um we've now have. friendship dating apps I'm wondering. where the location is these days like.

you. know once upon a time it would be in the. village it would be maybe at church it. would be at you know somewhere in person. but with the decline in skills of. building friendships or romantic. relationships it feels like both groups. are struggling and I've got a particular. friend in mine that I don't know what to. say to her about this subject cuz she's. finding desperate to find someone. finding a partner is as difficult as. finding a. friend um and and it's different for. introverts and extroverts right so like.

me take me for example I am absolutely. socially inept in Social places parties. bars clubs networking events I am. absolutely uncomfortable and inept I. stand in a corner by myself and the. funny thing about my career it's. actually been helpful that some people. recognize me because they'll come up to. me and do all the Talking which is like. a relief right my my my um one of my. best friends makes fun of me cuz she.

says like when we go to like a when we. go to a party like when we go to like. like a part party at someone's house or. something and there's like 100 people or. whatever there is 50 people that all. these conversations are happening like. you know these like little pockets of. conversations and I don't know how to. inject myself into com I don't know how. to like saunter up without feeling and. looking really uncomfortable and weird. and like ruining the relation ruining. whatever Dynamic exists and so she makes. fun of me because I'll just stand by. myself in the middle of the room with my. drink perfectly comfortable but like. when she stands in the corner and looks.

around like she goes to like get. something she'll see all these little. conversations and one person standing by. themsel with their drink and it's me so. I'm useless in Social places it's the. introvert in me but in unsocial places. I'm more relaxed so. like put me in a. museum and I'm looking at a piece of art. and somebody next to me is looking at a. piece of art and I actually have no. problem saying you like it. and it I'm not trying to make a friend.

I'm but I do like making a connection. and sometimes I talk for them for 30. seconds about the piece and it's. happened a couple times where we just. kept. talking and then you end up having a cup. of coffee and you ended up making a. friend like that's happened to me is. that because of the shared interest you. fundamentally know that you I think. there's a shared interest I also think. and this is a weird thing I actually. think it's easier to make a connection. when you're standing next to somebody. than when you're standing across from. somebody so like in social situations. like bars clubs networking events you. you face each other which I find.

adversarial and tense and you have to. gauge the right amount of social. distance you know it's 18 Ines is. actually the right amount you know. anything less than that is like too. close anything that then too far is. weird you know but I find standing next. to somebody is easier if you like going. for a walk with somebody or strolling. with somebody or standing next to. somebody in a museum standing next to. somebody in a buffet line you can. actually get really close without it. being uncomfortable so any place where I.

can stand next to somebody I find it. less and and being quiet is easier when. you're next to somebody like when you go. for a walk with somebody if you're. standing next to somebody you can say a. few words and then you can go completely. quiet that's not awkward when you're. facing somebody you go completely quiet. it's just flat out uncomfortable so the. way I Define you know social versus um. like social environments versus. non-traditional social environments is. am I standing next to someone or. standing across from someone. what's something that you're um. struggling with and when I ask that.

question I'm talking. about where I feel like every time I've. met you but also every time we've met. we've both been at Crossroads and those. Crossroads are professional Crossroads. personal Crossroads. Etc um I'm at so many Crossroads in my. life I think that's so where where tell. me so many Crossroads so trying to. understand get a clearer idea on what my. North Star is professionally and. therefore what I should be prioritizing. and this really relates to like. it's not even professionally it's just. in life it's like.

um had a lot of thoughts. about I i' I've worried for a long time. that the way I'm living my life is going. to turn out to. be um my priorities were wrong and that. I allocated my my time when I was young. that I had to the wrong set of. priorities and those priorities that I. allocated towards were like. work and material success and all those. things and that you know I heard there's.

a story you've probably heard it before. about the fisherman who. was down by the he had a little boat and. he went out to see every day and he went. out and caught two fish and came back by. lunchtime he sold one fish to pay for. the boat the petrol and the servicing. and he s he gave the other fish to his. family to feed his family and then then. in the evenings and afternoons he spent. the time at the beach relaxing with his. family and like a guy comes past in a. Mercedes and is like listen listen I've. got an idea for you what we're going to. do is we're going to keep you out on the. boat all day you're going to catch four.

fish we'll C with the extra two fish. we'll get other boats we'll employ. people we'll increase the F Fleet we C. we'll catch loads more fish with all. these new boats we have them we'll take. the company public we'll sell it and. then the Fisher man's like and then what. and he goes and then you can spend the. day with your family on the and I kind. of look at how I've played my life and. I'm wearing that's how I'm playing my. life a little bit um there's obviously. all all these other things like I'm in. the face season of life where I'm. thinking about fatherhood and becoming a. dad and how old are you now. 31 so I'm right at that that age and my.

partner's 31 so um that's a you know a. crossroad I'm at and uh so what do you. what so what are you going to do about. it I don't know well what are you. thinking about I'm I think I'm. collecting evidence to form a. perspective that's [ __ ] you have a. perspective you don't need evidence you. have all the EV you talk to you do this. podcast every day of your life yeah you. talk you do no none of the talking on. your podcast you do of the listening I'm. on to. you and we're going to go to ad break.

now yeah uh so that's nonsense you have. an opinion you have a perspective I'd. like to know what that perspective is. because you're at a Crossroads where you. said yourself I'm questioning the. priorities I made yeah so that means you. have a point of view and I'm worrying. that I'm bullshitting myself about why. I'm working so why what is the [ __ ]. line you're giving yourself why are you. working what's the [ __ ] line what's. the [ __ ] answer to that it's like. the fisherman it's like and then I'll. and then I'll make more boats and then. we'll make more boats and then for what. reason to what end like why is it.

important for you to keep having all. those boats in the water so I wonder. whether that it's about the end or if. it's about just the the fun of the. journey and that's what I'm that's kind. of what I'm not sure is it about the end. is it about you know being able to do. have it even greater levels of freedom. in the future which sounds like [ __ ]. because I've got so much Freedom now or. is it life is just about the climb not. not getting to the top and having this. incredible view but I just have to keep. myself sufficiently challenged in my.

life that's why I'm giving myself more. responsibility setting myself bigger. goals bigger challenges because the joy. of life is waking up in the morning and. feeling a little bit scared about today. and you know okay so if that's the. answer then you wouldn't be at a. Crossroads you would this wouldn't be a. conversation so so here's the blunt. question yeah what in what in your life. is off I think it's probably the balance. of my romantic relationship I feel like. I'm.

deferring I feel like I'm telling myself. that I'll have I'll really focus in the. way that I need to on my romantic. relationship which is also going to then. become my. family in the future and I've been. especially this year I've been doing. that all year I think that I'll have. time for my relationship in three years. when I sell a business or something. that's what I've been telling myself and. I think I'm I feel that. disconnection not just in my romantic. relationships but I just feel that. disconnection because I've told myself. now that I I'll figure it out in 3 years.

that's when I'll Focus I'll sell this. business then I'll focus on you know. what's so funny is. that if it was a business problem if you. and I were talking about a business. problem and I was telling you about a. business challenge I'm having I'm having. and if I said to you you know what. whatever I'll figure it out in 3 years. you would say no you figured that out. now MH cuz that problem will not go away. and 3 years from now you'll defer. another 3 Years or new problems you like. if this was a business problem you would.

never let yourself defer that problem. for 3 years so how are you giving. yourself a different standard for your. romantic relationship of something that. is of utmost importance to you the. desire to start a family one day why do. why the different standard for your per. a lower standard for your personal. relationship than your professional work. I think sometimes our romantic. relationships becomes the residual. benefit. I gets whatever's left it's kind of what. you were saying about friendships when. you was talking about friendships I was. thinking that's that term residual.

beneficiary like you get whatever's left. it's not allocated in the calendar so if. there's nothing in the calendar it gets. nothing that day but the business. meeting gets priority the thing I think. relationships are become the residual. beneficiary because it's unclear in the. near term the impact of neglecting them. so like brushing not brushing your teeth. today you would really see it today you. won't see the pain today there'll be no. Dental visit don't brush it every day. this week you also won't see the impact. don't do it for 5 years divorce you're. in the dental check having the MERS. pulled out and these things in life. where they're easy to do and therefore.

easy not to do and the the impact is. delayed they always become residual. beneficiary and like that's that's the. nature of my life like friendships. family relationships I've got this. meeting today and I can quantify the. return the meet the meeting is going to. make me a million or whatever but the. relationship not missing the date today. or not checking on you're trading you're. trading uh consistency for intensity. you're Trading. brushing your teeth every day for going. to the.

dentist so intensity easy to quantify. easy to measure immediate result yeah. yeah yeah yeah yeah. consistency slow no easy way to. calculate have to believe how long yeah. like how long does it take to get into. shape I don't know neither does any. doctor how many days do I have to brush. my teeth every day what if I take a day. off that's fine how many days can I take. off I don't know and Ne so. consistency going to the. gym like you don't treat your. relationship like going to the gym yeah.

right which is basically you're out of. shape and you're like I'll go to the gym. when I have time and then you're. surprised that you're out of shape and. out of breath so you recognize this and. so the question is is what can you do. and by the way you can also just. discover the results all by yourself no. I don't want to right cuz I've got. friends I met one at shortage house the. other day and he said I don't know how. it happened he go my wife was focusing. on her business I was focusing on mine. we got 13 years in and the relationship.

had just vanished and I don't really. know when it happened by the way the. opposite is true when things go right. which is if you invest in the. relationship just like you invest in. exercise you're like I don't even know. when I got into such great shape but. look at this right and it's what I have. found is that what makes great. friendships what makes great. relationships and what makes great. businesses is not just the big things. it's the it's the countless little. things like a corporate culture saying. good morning to everybody right just on. a daily basis like it's the countless. little things that add up to build trust. to build foundation and I think this is.

one of the this is one of. the great tragedies of. Entrepreneurship which is entrepreneurs. have a unique gift to excel at the. things that are easy to measure but how. many of them are really good at the. things that are hard to. measure you know um because what drives. you. is the ability to say look how much. effort I got but look at the return I. got for that effort and if I can't show. you a return I can only say trust me.

have faith that goes back to the. question of faith I need you to have. faith you'll be like I don't know but. you know intellectually so if so I'm. going to go so you're a man of action. and we're going to get on to you by the. way mhm okay so you're a man of action. your best you're a man of action if you. know that you're not prioritizing your. relationship and you're you're. overemphasizing work to the sacrifice of. your relationship and that your. relationship is getting the residual.

benefits I mean I'm sure that makes your. partner feel so special honey I love you. I want you to have all my residual. benefits I mean but you know what I have. to say she's running her own business. she's flying around the world doing her. own thing and 13 years from now a studio. upstairs which is her business her. breath work Studio MH so are you forcing. her to take a breath and for herself and. take time what I'm trying to do is. trying toed yes I know you are you. obedient to those date nights yeah these. days I am and is she uh yes but they're.

not frequent enough and this this is a. new thing we're trying so I I remember. the first time I had the conversation. with her about putting her in the. calendar and when people hear that this. idea of scheduling time with each other. there's this sort of initial visceral. negative reaction because what you think. I'm like your work or whatever she. wasn't like this a little bit um but. when I explained the whole residual. beneficiary thing which is everything. else is being scheduled and our. relationship isn't so I want our. relationship to be equally more. important than all these other things.

that are taking my diary than we bought. into it a little bit and that's helped. our relationship a little bit but then I. don't know this year i' really [ __ ] it. up like cuz I just over I said yes there. too many things and she's got her. business and I felt like we're too is it. like passing ships in the night are you. good at taking holiday no oh holiday. what the hell no no you work on a. holiday yeah my whole team now I was I. well I went to I bought House in South. Africa so I went over there but I was I. never it was as if so you do know right.

that nothing undermines trust more than. telling your team you're taking a. holiday and then checking in every day. yeah know because it's basically what. we're saying is I don't trust you to do. this without me which I know is not. true but that's what you're. communicating that I can't even take a. holiday without having to double check. everybody's work and make every. decision as opposed to saying I'm going. on holiday if there's an emergency deal. with it I'll see you in two weeks by. and what you will find is everybody will. work to a higher level because you let.

them you know what it is though when I. was on holiday which was about two weeks. ago I woke up every day wanting to do. the work of course you did it's called. addiction so addiction yeah yeah. probably you woke up every day to get a. hit yeah I want it's it's how you get. your validation I played paddle in the. morning but then I wanted to come home. and get stuck in yeah but you talked. about prioritizing your relationship. honey I'll be there in 2 hours I'm just. going to spend some time checking email. then we'll go for dinner he was on a.

bloody laptop as well not saying it's. healthy you just sound like well I can. be an addict if she's an addict yeah it. takes one of you to break the addiction. and bring the other one along with I. dare you to take a. holiday and just start with one day I'm. not even saying two weeks one day you. both leave your phones in the. hotel what do you think is going to. happen if I do that I think you'll. actually get along really well and have. a great. time you might have a little stress to. start there's always a withdrawal you.

might need to do it for two or three. days in a row cuz the first day might be. excruciating the second day not too bad. the third day you will bond like you've. never bonded in your. life actually um with her have planned a. retreat this weekend for for three days. and the deal we have is no phones so we. have what does no phones mean going to. glastenbury this weekend alone okay does. that mean you won't check your phones. does it mean you turn your phones off do. you put your phones in airplane mode if. I'm going to be honest with you I think. that's really important it means that. I'm still going to check my phones but. not when we're doing the activities so.

if if for example if I like you know. evenings if she's getting changed then. I'll just quickly check my phone so can. I make a recommendation yeah you hold. her phone and she holds you hold her. phone and she holds your phone for the. whole time so if you need to take a. picture of food or whatever take a. picture with each other's phone you know. you can turn a phone on without. somebody's password MH you know and at. no point do you say can I have your. phone if she goes to the toilet but she. takes your phone with you with her and. vice versa and you if you're in a.

restaurant by yourself God forbid you. have to just like look around for a. little bit okay I'll do that try it okay. well my old my my team are listening now. so they'll know that from Friday till. Monday if you need me I'm in glass and. leave me alone po M yeah yeah so. so it's it's a gift don't but don't. think of it as a selfish thing think of. it as an act of service and it's an act. of service to two different people it's. an act of service to your relationship. but it's also an act of service to your. team mhm give them a break right and let.

them let them solve difficult. problems I am a big Manchester United. fan and I travel all over the world one. of the big lifes savers for me as. someone that never misses a game ever. regardless of where I am in the world is. nordvpn because nordvpn allows me to. watch the game in territories and in. countries where it's often not available. for a variety of different reasons but. it's not just about football it's. websites movies that I can access and it. helps me navigate those geographical. blockers and that's why nordvpn are both. a sponsor of this podcast but a. lifesaver for me and it costs the same.

as a cup of coffee per month and not. just that when I'm accessing Wi-Fi. networks around the world it gives me a. lot of security which is something that. I think we don't think about enough if. you want to check out nordvpn for a. limited time only head to. nordvpn.com. doac and you can access our exclusive. deal which gives the Diary of CEO. listeners a huge discount plus four. extra months when you sign up to a. 2-year Plan and there's no risk with. nord's 30-day money back guarantee so. give it a try that's nordvpn.com doac or.

check out the episode description link. below what are you struggling. with um well I'm writing a book and. writing a book. is always personal conundrums. um I'm actually in a really good place. right now um you know I think we've. talked about this like my big struggle. is um I've taken a huge break a big step. back from public speaking and it was so.

much of my life for so long that to some. degree like I'm trying to reconfigure. what I want to do with my life you know. I feel like I just sort of left. University and I'm like okay now what do. I do um so I'm I'm on a journey but I'm. I like it you left a lot of money off. the table many many many millions by. making that. decision. sure so what. I don't that's not my. calculation I'm the person who I'm okay.

making less and lying on the. beach like I don't. have you know I want a comfortable life. like anybody wants a comfortable life. but I don't. need to be the biggest richest most. powerful I don't have that in me you. know I want to be really happy and I. want. my friends to love me and I want to love. my friends and.

um I don't. care like my my Tombstone won't have my. bank balance on it you want to be. successful right in the things that you. commit yourself to of course but how I. define success you know money money I. believe money is fuel right so I it's. not that I'm I'm this is not some hippie. you know commune you know know thing um. I view money as fuel and um just like I.

don't I don't own a car just to buy. petrol I own a car to go places and I. know the value of petrol is it'll help. me go. places but I have to want to go places. and I have to have destinations and so I. view my life and my career as a car my. career is a car to help me go places and. money is the fuel to to make that thing. happen but I still have to have a. destination and I still have to look. after the career and look after the. machine to make it well oiled so it can. get from A to B but for me the joy is is.

the journey that I take on the career. not how much petrol I have but if you. did the speaking still if you did all. this this you know flying around the. world speaking you wouldd have more fuel. for the mission no I've heard that. argument which is if you just doubled. down for two years and like said yes to. absolutely everything and hated your. life for two years you'd you'd you'd be. fine and the answer is yeah but what. about those two years. I I I you know and by the way. um I it's I it's the same mentality I.

want to work with people I like working. with you know I sometimes turn down work. from people who I just don't like them. you know or I don't trust them even. though and um and people have accused me. it's like well you can afford to turn. work down I was like I don't I've been. turning work down since before I could. afford it um and I've been saying no to. things before I could afford it and when. I was living hand to Fist and had no. money in my bank account I still lived a. very similar philosophy because for me.

my career was not just about advancing. it was about the joy along the way I I. because I recognized when I worked with. people who I didn't like working with I. literally found myself saying think of. the money think of the money think of. the money think of the money and I would. leave. exhausted and yet I would work with. people who I loved working with and. sometimes I literally made zero like CU. I would like do volunteer stuff and I. had so much fun and I left supercharged.

on life with more inspiration more ideas. and more friends than when I started and. so I just came to the realization that. if it's got nothing to do with how hard. I work I work really hard for both but. one fills me with energy the other one. saps me of energy and so no amount of. money is worth having my energy my ideas. and my inspiration sapped and yet money. cannot buy the energy ideas and. inspiration I get and so I I try very. hard it's imperfect but I try very hard.

to say yes to the things that fill me up. and some of them make good money and. some of them don't and that's okay um. and the reason I keep writing books and. the reason I keep having ideas it's not. because I'm smart it's not because I'm. somehow more creative than other people. it's because I'm surrounding myself with. people who fill me up give me energy and. give me ideas but it's more than that. because it's got to be more than that. because you're someone who is so. remarkably good at articulation and.

ideas and thinking through first. principles and really coming up with. original perspectives on things one of. the things I've always really wanted to. ask you is is. how what is what is the process what is. the what is where does the inspiration. come from where does where does that. come from if people are s they're. creative people or their you know they. they just want to advance their own. knowledge they want to be wise like you. are what would you what would you. recommend they did so and you talk about. first principles first of all I hate the.

term first principles it's so. condescending right let's just call it. beginner's mindset right because that's. what you are you're basically pretending. that you're a beginner and you know. nothing it's or what I like to call it. it's a student mindset I'm not an expert. I'm a student I've always viewed myself. as a student right and so my favorite. people are the ones who ask the. questions that other people are. embarrassed to ask because they don't. want to be seen as dumb students if. you're in a classroom nobody Minds. raising their hand and asking the. teacher how does that work because we're. the students MH so I treat myself as a.

student in every meeting I don't mind. asking the questions that I don't know. the answers to even if it makes me look. like a fool I don't mind saying I don't. understand that I never try and be an. expert in somebody else's business. they're the expert in their business and. so when you uh when you say like where. does the first principles come from. where does The Beginner's mindset I'm. not curious about everything I'm curious. about the things that I'm curious about. and I ask a ton of questions and I don't. mind not knowing answers um I have.

strong opinions loosely held you know. somebody just told me the other day one. of the things they liked about me which. is like I'll come out swinging and I. will argue hard for something but the. minute you give me a good argument or a. piece of evidence that proves me wrong. I'm like yep that's you're you're. totally right I'm completely like again. strong opinions loosely held right is. there a practice. though this is an impossible line of. thinking right and I'll tell you why. that's like. me asking Michael Jordan how do I become. a great basketball player it's like well.

you need some natural capacity like I'm. way too short so I lost that one and I. can work my brains out but I don't have. any Talent whatsoever so work ethic is. definitely part of it and I can follow. all of Michael Jordan's you know. routines and there is no chance zero. that I will become a great basketball. player not to mention the fact that he. started when he was a kid and I didn't. right. so I think that you know people come up.

to me sometimes and say I want to be a. public speaker how do I get into the. business I'm like well what do you want. to talk about they're like I don't know. yet I'm like you've completely missed. the point like I never wanted to be a. public speaker I just had a thing that I. wanted to talk about MH right and so you. have to have a passion for something and. then you figure out a way to bring it to. life you either become a an entrepreneur. or you be you bring it to life in a. corporate environment or you it like. you find a thing and then you find the. way to bring that thing to life so. number one is like I don't think.

somebody can just choose to become me. like they can't choose to become you um. are there things that you could practice. that I've learned that will help you. hone some particular skill set. sure um the courage to say I don't know. that one was a that was a hard learned. lesson that was the greatest lesson I. ever learned in my life give me. something technical in terms of how to. deliver ideas and to speak that is. transferable could learn that's totally. I can totally do that yep I totally give.

you that number one is what's the. motivation of why you're walking up on. the stage or standing up in front of the. room to give a presentation or you know. giving a pitch right um what's the. motivation is it to get or is it to give. um most people present to get something. to get funding to get a client to get an. Applause to get a book sale to get a. follower right it's a it's a takers. mentality and I had learned to have a. givers mentality and literally every.

single time I have a meeting or I give a. speech I will say to myself under my. breath out loud you're here to give I. have a point of you and I'm here to. share it and I don't want anything in. return and that has profoundly helped me. I just heard a thing that Michael Keon. talked. about about how he reconfigured his um. uh mind mindset for auditions so the. problem with an audition the problem. with actors is actors come into an.

audition specifically to get something I. want the role so that I can be an actor. right I'm going to audition so that you. can give me the role so that I can be an. actor want want want take take take. right and it's brutal and what Michael. Keaton did is he stopped treating the. audition as an act of selfishness gimme. and he started treating it as an act of. service which is that is I'm an actor my. part today whether it's for 2 minutes or. 10 minutes or 15 minutes the part and.

though I don't get paid my role today is. to play this part for my audience of. three people here and it still hurt. sometimes if he didn't get the part that. he's still a human being but his. mentality of he treated the audition. like the role and the joy he got from. being an act so he was a hardworking. actor because he went to a lot of. auditions not because he got a lot of. parts right and it's the same which is. to treat everything as an act of service. as an act of giving that the joy comes.

from being in the room from having the. meeting like I give good meeting right. because I enjoy meetings because I give. I give the people on the other side. everything and sometimes we do business. together and sometimes we don't but I. often find meetings that go nowhere. really. enjoyable so one thing that everybody. can learn is if you have a point of view. or if you have a product if you have a. service that you think has value in the. world then show up with the joy of. giving so number one is showing up to. give and uh and if you want like real. technique for standing on stage I can. give you that too let's do both so on.

the first point about showing up to give. if I show up with that mentality of I'm. going to give today does that that also. changes the content and the way that I. Everything Changes Everything Changes. the your tone of voice changes like. we've all experienced somebody who takes. versus somebody who gives right go to a. shop where the employee is paid by. commission and tell me if you can feel. it yeah yeah yeah now now go to a shop. where the employees given a salary and. there's no commission for every sale and. tell me if you can feel the difference.

night and day night and day right so. it's the same thing people are smart. people can feel when you're a taker and. people can feel when you're a giver I. see it all the time on stages it's. really easy when somebody's on a stage. when they walk up on the stage and the. first thing they tell you is put your. phones away give me an hour of your time. I you know show me some politeness okay. [ __ ] that's your job is to hold my. attention you know. uh when they stand up and they tell you. their credentials or just the logo being. on the screen when they stand up and the.

screen behind them has their logo their. URL their all their all their QR code. all the handles for all their socials. when you ask them a question and they. say well if you read my book oh my God. right uh my online course like you it's. they can't help themselves it's they're. dripping people hate that on this. podcast in one of our recent episodes a. certain guest referenced their book. every three sentences and honestly the. amount of comments in the comment. section that honestly I was like gee why. have to have a chat about it as a team. because so many of the comments even.

though it was a great conversation it's. done millions and millions of downloads. and Views the people in the comments. were like really not happy with the fact. that they mentioned their book let's say. 20 times in a three-hour conversation. yeah but but you know but some in in. their defense especially firsttime. authors but even multiple time authors. the Publishers give them bad advice yes. the Publishers say push the book push. the book and I always tell people who. have a new book just come on and have a. conversation with me about what I want. to talk about I'll make you shine don't. worry it'll be a wonderful conversation. and if people like you they will go find.

out and they will buy your book and let. me plug it you just answer my questions. yeah right I had a guest once who. um to same thing every my Netflix. special my new Netflix special my next. Netflix special my first Netflix special. you know my third Netflix special on my. upcoming Netflix special like it was so. gross and I I mean I shouldn't say this. on but but we edited I was so annoyed we. edited out every single mention and so.

the total mentions of Netflix specials. in that episode is zero you probably did. them a favor CU I took them all out um. but it was gross he wasn't showing up to. give he was showing up to take and the. conversation he never engaged with me he. had an agenda and I was simply some. platform the thing that I like about the. podcast and you look you have guessed. that you like more than others not. because they're nice people it's because. you realize that you're having a nice. conversation or you realize they're they. have an agenda agenda is a taking. mentality um um so if there's so going.

back to techniques that I've learned you. know like even when I talk about my work. I'm talking about it in a way that I've. like I've discovered something or I'm on. a journey of something and I really want. people to come on the journey with me so. let me tell you what I'm learning as. opposed to look how smart I am look at. the stuff that you should buy my book. and you know what is that at the the. core of a human though that appreciates. someone walks up on that stage or is in. that presentation room doing the pitch. when they can just feel in their bones. that this person came to give versus.

take what is it like the human level oh. it's super simple right because we're. highly attuned social animals our. survival depends on our ability to trust. each other right think about where we. came from we lived we're tribal animals. that if I fell asleep at night I need. you to watch for danger and I need to do. the same for you so we we're very very. good at assessing are you looking out. for me are you looking out for you and. so it's deep seated into our you know. our caveman brain that if I sense that. you're a taker I I I'm not sure I want. to fall asleep at night so where if I. sense that you have a giver's heart like.

yeah I'll fall asleep at night and let. you I'll let you watch for saber 2. Tigers yeah so we're very very attuned. we can be tricked um we can absolutely. be tricked um but for the most part. we're we're pretty we're pretty good at. assessing we're pretty good at at at at. at at being uh ATT tuned to when. someone's a giver or a taker but like I. said I am sympathetic I'm not judgy. because I know some people it's born out. of insecurity or incredibly bad advice. that they're given by their Publishers. or you know to push push push push push. which is the wrong.

advice just tell the story just tell the. story born out of insecurity it's funny. I was watching a conversation with you. this morning someone you spoke to and. you were asking them about their they. asked you how how they find their why. yeah and you basically coaching them. through that exercise and one of the um. you asked them about an early memory in. their childhood or that they can. remember from their career and you using. that as a way to kind of track their why. and the answer the first answer they. gave you was actually just about. validation it was about their school.

teacher to saying they couldn't do. something and then the moment they. proved they could yeah and as I was. listening to that I thought God that's. not a why that's insecurity and so many. of us probably including me um we've. confused the confused them I sometimes. validation can feel. like. purpose well that's an interesting. that's an interesting I was watching the. conversation going oh my God this cuz I. cuz the person you were speaking to I. know them yeah and I know think I.

they're very very complicated very very. they've said it publicly they're very. insecure and I know who we're talking. about yeah his response was all about I. proved my teacher wrong and I was stood. there having this great career moment. and look at me I finally done it yeah. and as I was watching I was like that's. not purpose that's. insecurity and it's even for me in my. life I think I I confuse if you look at. the first page of my diary when I'm 18. it says says four goals before I'm 25. number one six-pack number two uh.

girlfriend number three rain drove sport. number four millionaire before 25 that. wasn't purpose this was all the things. that made me insecure goal people I. think people confuse goals and purpose. but these all four things made me feel. insecure when I was a kid yeah never had. a girlfriend skinny smallest kid of four. no money in our household and um never. never could drive youngest in the year. didn't have money these were this was a. list of my insecurities in Reverse yeah. that makes sense and I thought they were. my goal missions in life but I think. that's normal you know I think we're all.

a jumble of who is it who said it it was. really nice which is you know we're all. seeking validation from others and yet. if you're if you re I forgotten who said. it was brilliant but we're all seeking. validation from others and hoping people. like us and yet if we can just remember. to validate somebody else you're ahead. of the game you know we're all worried. at what people think about us and. whether I made the wrong joke or whether. I said the wrong thing and the reality. is nobody's thinking about you yeah. they're thinking about themselves and if.

you can just validate other people and. again this goes to the skill of of of. service you know which is you have to. have a friend you have to learn to be a. friend. um the one thing that I've learned of. the course of a career and I'm now in. middle. age is the people in my life matter more. than I thought they did the friends in. my life matter more than I thought they. did learning to be a human being matters. more than I thought it. did being smart being successful having.

the six-pack having the Range Rover any. of those things is fun but but the. people with whom I share those things. matters more like going to the gym with. someone matters more than the six-pack. going on the adventure with someone in. the Range Rover matters more than the. Range Rover who I get to share money. with and spend money on and give money. away to matters more than the money I. make um um what I do with recognition.

and how I use it to make other people. feel seen or heard matters more than how. many people see or hear me and um and I. think that's the single most important. lesson I've learned in a career I think. that answers the question about the. difference between insecurity and. purpose because insecurity is about me. and purpose becomes who can I give this. you know what service exactly cuz none. of those things are fun unless I get. like and I have some friends who are. insanely. generous and when I say insanely.

generous you just. realize the joy that they get from. sharing whatever they've accomplished. with and by the way I'm not just talking. about financial success like a friend. who's an incredible artist and loves to. share her art you know and if you're one. of her friends you will get one of her. pieces of. art this kind of I want to go back to. the public speaking advice cuz I really. want to get that from you but um this. kind of do made me think about. corporations and Business Leaders and. how they can introduce service into.

their into their companies as a way to. create better businesses well they've a. lot of companies have misunderstood what. service means they think service is the. company gives money to charity or we. have a giving day where we all go take a. day off work and work for Habitat for. Humanity or something like that we all. like the company sponsors a fund run and. you know run raise money for charity or. something and we give our people you. know a day off to go do the run and we. all volunteer like those things are good.

um that's charitable giving and you. should do that but that's not purpose. that's just do that anyway that's just. giving right um real purpose real. service is and we've talked about this a. little bit before which is um in a in a. day and age where coming to work or. staying home has controversy and um and. mental Fitness issues. attached how do I help redesign work so.

that the people I go to work with feel. safe heard. seen when they come to work every day. like what can I do at the office to make. somebody else feel seen and heard and. validated to protect somebody else's. mental Fitness that's service teach. people that and this is one of the. reasons why you know I'm work so hard. and like built a whole company to teach. human skills because the skills to do. those things are not well understood and.

their skills remember cats don't have to. work very hard to be cats but it takes a. lot of work to be a human being and most. of us actually lack the skills to be a. good human being in things like. listening active listening like do you. know how to hold space for somebody. who's struggling do you know how to do. that um do you know how to have a. difficult conversation can you have a. conversation about race in your company. you know um do you know how to have um. how to give somebody incredibly. difficult feedback in a way that they. can hear it without being defensive um. do you know how to have an effective. confrontation to go up to somebody who's.

your level higher or lower than you in. the corporate hierarchy and confront. them because they did something that. upset you in a way that they will hear. you like do you have any of those skills. most people including people in. positions of leadership lack those. skills now the best part is those skills. are teachable learnable and practice. every single one of them can be learned. by absolutely 100% of people just like. every single person on the planet can. learn to ride a bicycle everybody can. learn to ride a bicycle you just have to.

do a little bit of the work and you're. going to wubble and you're going to. scrape your knees a few times but I. guarantee you you'll get to the point. where it becomes second nature and so if. you want to build a company that builds. service and purpose into the company. please please teach people human skills. and don't ask me what the ROI is right. that's like what Gary vaynerchuk says. like what's the ROI of your mother right. like it's everything you and I have. talked about what's the r of what's the. r of going to the gym one day nothing. the answer is zero unless you do it.

every day and so if you have a company. filled with people who are brilliant. listeners brilliant at confrontation. brilliant at expressing their feelings. brilliant at having difficult. conversations with each other watch what. happens to productivity to engagement to. Innovation to loyalty to customer. service um just every metric on the. planet and the most important one the. joy the people who come to work where. people say I love my job I feel like I'm. a part of something bigger than myself. and it has nothing to do with the.

product or service we sell I get the. ultimate Joy of taking care of the. people I work with and I feel taken care. of by the people I work with and that. is that's about the greatest gift you. can give to a company that's good. leadership by the way um so and that. service to society in the same and I. mean and the reason it service to. society is for a very simple reason. because if you learn all these skills. and my company teaches me these skills. even if it's selfish because they want.

to make their office better and they. want more Innovation and more. productivity and more engagement fine. great somebody who has a who's a better. listener and better at. confrontation once you have that skill. you have that skill which means you go. home with that skill and you now H are. better able to hold space for your. spouse or your girlfriend or your. boyfriend or your children which means. you have now improved your relationships. which means they feel seen and heard and. understood better than they ever have. before and because they now know what it.

feels like they in turn instinctively do. it for their friends and their neighbors. and those people do it for their friends. and their neighbors and before you know. it the ripple effect you have World. Peace because remember world peace is. not the absence of conflict that's not. what world peace means world peace is. the ability to resolve our conflicts. peacefully. there's no such thing as a marriage or a. relationship without conflict successful. relationships are able to resolve their. conflicts peacefully World Peace doesn't.

mean we all agree World Peace doesn't. mean we we all like each. other there's something about this um. idea of being able to have those. difficult conversations which is so. Central to the health and Trust of an. organization and I've really been. learning this recently um over the last. couple of years that you can probably. predict the amount of quiet. dissatisfaction in any team organization. family. relationship based on their ability and. capacity to have uncomfortable. conversations yeah because there so many.

so many companies so many Founders so. many leaders that are listening right. now will relate to this idea of quiet. dissatisfaction it is when some of your. expectations are being unmet by your. colleagues your co-workers your employer. whatever and for whatever reason because. of the culture you've not felt or maybe. you don't have the skills to address it. and it's now growing and then eventually. you'll either leave something will break. the company will die. um but we now need to start teaching I. think especially you know this. generation how to have those.

uncomfortable conversations for our. relationships it's been a game changer. in my relationship it's been a game. changer in my businesses um and it's. something that I'm trying. to get even better at what advice do I. need to get to get better at it but also. to drag my teams up and to make sure. that all of us collectively as a culture. are creating that culture of like having. the difficult conversation today well. number one like I said teach it right. teach it which is like you know. the I mean I said like I said before. which is I recognized that I didn't have.

the skills I recognized that I wasn't. able to teach people the skills I. recognized my teammates didn't have the. skills and so we started to look for the. people the books the TED Talks so that. we could learn so that we could be. better to each other and it was so. valuable that we said okay well what if. we taught this to other people as well. because I I would just be at a dinner. table talking about how I had learned. the skill and how it benefited my. relationships and my work and somebody.

says oh my God can you teach that to me. you know and I was like I guess that was. a lot of what drove the early stuff from. the comp from the optimism company you. know that the where we teach human. skills it was the skills that I lacked. it was the skills that I needed MH and I. sought them out I went and took them. from other places wherever I could get. them um and realize there was a distinct. lack of these. skills uh in the world and the best. place to get them would be at work again. because that's where the people are.

because if you turned around today and. you're working in a business either at. any level in a company and you said. listen and you just started giving like. un difficult feedback or you started. exhibiting that behavior on your own you. would be so unusual in the culture that. that people wouldn't understand it so. you can't just listen to us have this. conversation then go into work it's like. being radically transparent with people. no you can't don't do that don't do that. but what you can say and I've done this. as what I've said even to my team I've. said out loud I realize that one of the.

skills that I'm lacking in is ex I am. going on a journey to hone that skill. I'm going to be practicing I might. fumble it and get it wrong sometimes I. might start acting in a way that you. will perceive as weird bear with me I'm. just practicing a new skill I just want. you to know that I'm on this journey so. when I start acting weird or differently. you'll know why and the journey is I'm. going to start trying to accept um. difficult conversations and feedback. better and I'm going to try and give it. more honestly and openly is that the the.

essence I mean if that's the one you're. working on yeah you know um you know. because I mean I took a listening class. many years ago and here's what I. learned I learned that I am an. absolutely. fantastic brilliant listener for Pete. with people I will never speak to again. for the rest of my life but with my. friends and colleagues a freaking. disaster and so when I would have.

arguments with friends and colleagues. and they would say you are such a bad. listener I would say seriously like do. you know what I do for a living I think. I'm doing just fine right and I was. right but in a different context with. people who I will literally never see or. talk to again for the rest of my life. and so when I took this class I was like. [ __ ] and I remember when I was done with. the class I picked up the phone and like. called a bunch of people I said I think. I owe you an apology I just took this.

class and I realized I'm a terrible. listener and they were like yeah we know. you know and yet they stuck with me. still you know why would they do that. right but I I fully owned it and and. then like even in my relationship like I. said I'm learning how to be a better. boyfriend I'm learning how to be a. better listener I'm learning how to. resolve conflict better like bear with. me but I can't do it alone like I need. you to point it out you know I need you. to tell me when I get it wrong or I need. you to tell me you know and so my my.

girlfriend and I we got really good at. sort of like pointing it out to each. other like when we slipped up so like. when one of us we were having a. difficult conversation we're having an. argument and I'm saying my feelings and. she would correct my facts and I'd be. like babe don't correct my facts I just. just telling my feelings and she'd be. like you're right you're right like so. we both took the education so we could. like we both knew the we both knew the. curriculum so we could both like we.

never we didn't take it personally if. the other person just helped block and. tackle in the middle of an argument and. this led to all kinds of remarkable. creativity so I'll give you one example. of of creativity because what happens is. when you learn the. skills you become hyper aware of how. people are speaking and how you're. speaking in the situation you're not. just arguing you're not just trying to. be right you're not just trying to. defend or prove the other person wrong. you actually become hyper aware and you. you gain a situational awareness like. it's kind of amazing so my girlfriend. and I were having pretty bad argument.

and it went something like this here's. what I did right and here's what you did. wrong the response was well here's what. I did right and here's what you did. wrong the response was well here's what. I did right in fact here's two things I. did right and here's four things you did. wrong right and this went on and on. clearly going nowhere it's getting more. heated it's getting more aggressive. it's getting more personal and and I had. the situational awareness to realize.

this is this is a lose lose situation. and I literally interrupted I said okay. hey I'm interrupting our. argument and I'm making new rules okay. currently what we're doing is I'm. telling you the things I did right and. I'm telling you the things you did wrong. and you're doing the same I'm changing. the rules new rules I'm going to tell. you the things that I did wrong and I'm. going to tell you the things that you. did right I'm going to go first and then. you're going to go okay here's what I. got wrong and here's what you got right. and she goes well yeah well here's what. I got wrong and here's what you got. right and I well well here's what I got.

wrong and in four minutes we were joking. and laughing and hugging and realizing. that we were contributing to the tension. but also the other person was really. trying interesting it's a nice reverse. try that out and literally it was only. from all of these classes and skills and. practice and practice that I at least. had the sensibility to recognize the. situation I was in to change the rules. Midway because I think part of the.

problem is even if you have the skills. sometimes we forget to um deploy them. that's how to be a remarkable listener I. always reflect on this conversation I. had with um Julian treasure who's the. Ted Ted Ted I talker that did a famous. speech about how to be a great speaker. and he said he also did a he said that. that talk on how to be a great speaker. did like 30 40 million views and then he. did a talk on how to be a great listener. and it did like 3 million views like. nobody wanted to listen to that um. ironic isn't it it's so ironic but um. that's how to be a great listener to.

just to close off on this idea of then. how to be a great speaker we touched on. a couple of points there is there any. more technical things you would give me. as advice if I was going up on stage and. I wanted to be able to connect with. people influence them and you know share. my. message value narrative stories right I. mean. it's I mean it's so Hackney to even talk. about it right right but nobody wants to. be explained to right um people will.

listen to stories and remember stories. they will forget. explanations and they won't learn from. explanations the explanation and the. facts and the figures can come. afterwards but metaphors stories things. that help people understand what you're. trying to say then ex then so most. people get it backwards first they tell. you the explanation then they use the. metaphor the story to prove the facts. I've learned that the total total. opposite is actually much more effective. tell the story suck people in they'll.

remember the story and then tell them. the Salient bits so for example um and. all of my work I start with story right. um so for example if I'm introducing. finite infinite games right um I will. say something like. um during the Vietnam war um most people. don't realize that the United States. actually won most of the battles it. fought not only did It win most of the. battles if you look at the numbers. America lost 58,000 troops over the. course of 10 years of fighting the North.

Vietnamese lost 3 million people which. raises a really interesting question how. do you win all the battles and decimate. your enemy and lose the war clearly. there's more than one definition of. winning and losing what are you doing. there you're making me curious you're. creating a curiosity Gap you're you you. know I'm emotionally connected to this. now or I'll tell you the story when I. went to Afghanistan you know and how I. learned what true purpose means where. I'll tell you the story of the the A10. pilot Johnny Bravo who risked his life. for other people and I ask the.

rhetorical question at the end of that. amazing story you know in the military. they give medals to people who are. willing to sacrifice themselves That. Others May gain and in business we give. bonuses to people who willing to. sacrifice others so that we may. gain I doing like and so all of these. things are ways of making people relate. their experiences in their lives to my. stories I want them to go yeah so it's. no longer about me and my facts and my. point of view it's about us and our. shared journey and our collective.

experience people are interested in. things that make them feel something. curiosity is a. feeling um data isn't going to do that. data is not going to do that it's like. try arguing with somebody with data you. know try try try try using facts to. prove your girlfriend wrong when you're. having an emotional argument. then it's not going to go well right and. I think we make this mistake all the. time you know we bring we bring we bring.

data to an emotional gunfight it's never. going to go. well data has to meet data and emotion. has to meet emotion and good leaders and. good presenters know how to modulate and. so I want people to be emotionally. invested in whatever I have to tell them. and the easiest way to do that is with a. story a story that produces some sort of. emotion a story that allows people to. relate and even if it's nothing to do. like if I'm telling a story of an Air. Force pilot at some point they'll go.

yeah I want to work with people like. that too you know um because I even say. that I want to work with people like. that MH um um how do I get that at work. if I'm not in the military what about. you other things that you're doing as. you're speaking now I can see that you. have like intonations in your voice. you're being you're going low than high. mhm these like technical body language. things what else what other advice would. you so when I tell people I'm an. introvert they go that's impossible you. you're a public speaker how can you be.

an introvert and what they misunderstand. is that is that one thing is unrelated. to the other but more important that. being an introvert actually makes me a. better public speaker because I don't. like holding Court I like talking to an. individual and so when I'm on a stage I. look at one person in the eye and I give. them an entire sentence or an entire. thought and then I'll go to somebody. else and I'll give them an entire. sentence or an entire thought I just. make sure to do something called. painting the edges which is I make sure. that I'll get somebody in the upper left. the lower left the upper right the lower.

right the back middle the front middle. not necessarily in an order but I just. make sure to make eye contact with. somebody in each area of the audience. and I have an like I said and by the way. it works in meetings too if you're. sitting meeting with half a dozen people. a dozen people and you're telling them. whatever it is you're telling them look. somebody in the eye give them an entire. sentence or an entire thought and look. you and I you can feel it you can feel. that connection so I did an experiment I. was standing on a stage like a thousand. people whatever it was and I was just. doing Q&A and somebody was asking about. speaking and I was telling them about.

eye contact and giving an entire. sentence and or entire thought to one. person and I picked just a random person. in the audience and I looked at them and. said okay I'm going to keep talking to. you I'm going to look you in the eye I'm. going to keep talking to you until you. feel a connection and all I want you to. do is I will keep looking at you and. talking to you and I want you to raise. your hand when you feel some sort of you. know connection and about eight people. around that person all raised their hand. and that's why works because I'm. actually connecting with everybody even. though I'm only actually looking at a. few MH um so eye contact as opposed to.

scanning and. panning like talk to a. person talk to a person and the same in. a meeting talk to a person make it feel. like you're talking to them most of us. are very bad at that we we don't we we. sort of scan and Pan the whole time the. other thing you said earlier which kind. of I've overlayed with that which I've. noticed in you is that vulnerability is. another way to make your message really. land and to feel connected to what. you're saying and you do that well. because you'll often bring it back to. you and your feelings and you'll share. things with people that others might not. share MH and that for some reason makes.

your message even more powerful well I. don't think of myself as special and. even though I'm standing on a stage I. don't think of myself as talking down to. people and so one of the big things that. I do on purpose is I use we instead of. you unless there's a very specific. reason why not to so for example I'll. say I'll never I'll I'll never say you. need to do everything in your power to. live a life of service because until you. learn to live a life of service you will.

never find. happiness you will never hear those. words come out of my mouth I'll say. things we need to all learn how to do. the things that give us a sense of. service because none of us will ever. find happiness until we learn to live. lives of service I'm on the same Journey. I'm on I have the same struggles I am. imperfect and bumbling myself and so how. dare I stand on the stage and tell. people what they need to do when I. haven't got it all figured out myself. yet right I will share what I'm learning. on my journey but we are going on this. journey together shoulder Tosh shoulder.

side by side and you will teach me. things and I will teach you things but. I'm in it and so I one of the reasons I. think my work connects with people is I. don't think that I'm above anyone I. think I'm right in it with it and I do I. come up I come as a student and I share. what I'm learning on my journey and I. and I and I learn from questions and I. learn from comments and I learn from. people and I learn from the debates I. have and I learn from the discussions I. have and I love it um all of my works. are incomplete and.

imperfect but they're they're steps. forward Simon we have a closing. tradition on this podcast where the last. guest leaves a question for the next. guest not knowing who they're going to. leave it for and the question that has. been left for. you. is what area of your life do you still. think you need some good advice on. I mean. it's I mean every area of my life I've. got none of it figured.

out I don't understand. Finance I mean I'm kind of an idiot when. it comes to that stuff and I sit in. these meetings and people talk to me. with jargon and I literally I feel so. dumb you know uh my mind just doesn't my. brain just doesn't work that way but um. you know. yeah I mean I'm I'm I'm learning to. understand some of the stuff that I'm. supposed to know you know.

literally personal things or no I mean. work things like like like deal making. like I don't understand any of it like. you and I were talking before the camera. started rolling like about valuations. and like I kind of. understand I mean this is one of the. really interesting things is I think our. success kind of correlates to us even. admitting that there's things we don't. understand I think the greatest. entrepreneurs that I've sat here with um. are great because they're very good at.

knowing what they absolutely don't know. I remember Richard Branson telling me. when he was on my podcast in New York he. was saying um he' built like the biggest. one of the biggest groups in Europe. called The Virgin group and he was like. 55 years old and sat in a meeting with. his directors and they looked at him and. said Richard you don't know what profit. is do you and he goes no yeah he didn't. understand I read a p&l yeah and so they. took him outside of a room he said to me. that they drew a picture of an ocean and. with crayons he said use the word. crayons and he said they drew a net in. the ocean and put fishies in the net and. said Richard the fishies in the net you. get to keep that that's your net profit.

Richard goes got it and the fact that he. had been able to build such a mega. business without knowing the basics and. he goes I go why and he goes well. because in in his business because I'm a. dyslexic thinker he said I've always. just like asked who not how yeah I've. just I've always had to delegate yeah. and a lot of people I I but I I'm the. same like I I I know what I don't. know and I trust myself when I know. things and I don't trust myself when I. don't know things the mistakes I've made.

and the and I've made the same mistake. over a few times which it causes me a. bit of self-loathing. um which is when I didn't understand. something and my insecurity about not. knowing that thing made me overly trust. somebody who claimed that they would. guide me and help me and they did know. the thing that I didn't know and the. mistake that I made was I never really. like those people or trusted those. people but because their skill set um. you know bolstered mine I let them tell.

me what to do and I did what they told. me and 100% of those times I got [ __ ]. and those people um ended up taking. advantage of me what's the lesson um. that you've learned my the lesson is. trust my gut right which is and I don't. mean to make my own decisions about. everything but if I if I believe the. advice that I'm being given by somebody. who knows more than me literally about. something I don't. understand and if it. feels wrong it doesn't mean the advice.

is necessarily wrong find a different. person yeah and so I the mistake I made. was rejecting all advice that felt wrong. no no no you can't do that but what I. have learned is to reject the people who. feel wrong and that's the lesson and I. wish I knew that then I wouldn't have. made some of the some of the worst. mistakes I've made in my career um. unfortunately taught me that lesson so. interesting and the thing that annoys me. is I made it more than once I had a.

meeting yesterday where the guy. presented something to me and knew so. much more about that than me the subject. and my I just didn't my body just didn't. connect with him in some way and I found. myself questioning something I didn't. know yeah a subject I didn't know but as. I walked out the meeting i' go no it was. the guy you didn't you didn't like. something what does waren Buffett say. you can't make good deals with bad. people yeah you know exactly and cuz I. do deals with people who know a lot they. they could take advantage of me I have. people that I've worked with that. absolutely could bamboozle me.

um but they. didn't you know because they're good. people because they're good people this. is unfortunately why we have. lawyers is because you need you know. people will take advantage of you and. it's it's sad you and I both know this. which is the best deals you you you go. with the lawyers and you Rumble and you. you go through all the terms but once. the deal is signed you'll never look at. that contract again for the rest of your. life and if you did I can guarantee you. that both sides have breached that.

contract and violated the terms multiple. times but you don't care because you. trust each other you know that a. relationship in a business deal has gone. horribly sour if you refer to the. contract well according to the. contract that deal is done yeah because. great business relationships you never. pull the contract out ever you've and. you break it all the time pay late work. too many hours take advantage of each. other overuse things nobody. cares because there's trust Simon thank. you so much I am if people haven't seen.

it yet people haven't checked it out I. highly recommend everybody go and check. out the optimism company because your um. all the things that you've talked about. today and all the skills that I think. are deficient in society and even the. idea of how to like how to the win. friends um influence people listen. better communicate better so that we can. resolve problems and move in the same. direction all of those things are taught. and answered on the at the optimism. company I kind of look at it as like a. modern University that's filling the. deficit of skills that the uh all of us.

I was going to say the younger. Generations but it's really all of us. have started to either disregard or lose. sight of um and it's and it's nice that. in a world where education is teaching. us so little about how what it is to be. a successful human being and friend and. partner and colleague and leader that. you've created a business that Endeavors. to fill that hole um it's remarkable. it's really really actionable um great. very very experienced teachers on at the. optimism company and it's delivered in. such.

a a friendly way and when I say friendly. I mean friendly to a brain like mine. that is that isn't tremendously patient. so I recommend everybody go and check it. out I'll link it below as well and we're. all very excited for your next book. about friend oh that's very nice of you. thank you I love coming on here I always. learn something I love that we get to. take an idea and wrestle with it and uh. and I always appreciate that that you. push uh and you push for the the best. reason of all which is because you're. curious to understand more and in so.

doing you always teach me so thanks. again for having me on it's I I it's. always such a joy thank you so much. Simon thank. you how many of you started thinking. about your long-term Health when you hit. 30 for me this was a wakeup moment of me. thinking to myself okay I probably need. to start paying a little bit more. attention now I already felt a change in. myself when I hit 30 with things like my. metabolism my energy levels so this year. is no different Zoe which is a company.

I've invested in but also a company that. are a sponsor of this podcast helps me. to make smarter food choices all based. on their world leading science and my. own test results if I'm ordering food I. know how to make my takeaway so much. smarter by adding things like a side of. vegetables to eat first or choosing the. option with the most fiber Zoe helps me. to make that choice it gu guides me and. coaches me it's my personalized. nutrition coach that I have on me 24/7. and to help you start your Zoe journey. and start making smarter food choices.

I'm giving you guys 10% off when you. join Zoe now all you've got to do is use. code ce10 at the checkout when you sign. up enjoy and let me know how you get on. [Music]. ah. [Music].