She Cheated On Me and Thats Not All - Dr. Aria | E56

You've made a great decision. And I say. this as impartially as I possibly can, but this podcast is it's really the. reason why I started the Diary of a CEO. It's to hear these kinds of stories from. these kinds of people. And I've got to. be honest with you, I spent about a year. asking this person to come on this. podcast and have a conversation with me. Today's guest is Dr. Ari, and he's been. on the podcast once before. He's a a. world-renowned high performance coach, and he works with some of the world's.

most accomplished athletes, actors, and. everyone in between as they try and. reach a mindset state that is conducive. with success, with happiness, and with. overall fulfillment. But he's not here. to talk about that today. He's here to. talk about something very, very. different, something uncomfortable, something unimaginable. So without further ado, I'm Steven. Bartlett and this is the Diver CEO. I. hope nobody is listening, but if you. are, then please keep this to yourself.

[Music]. Sometimes in life, you have these. unbelievable, somewhat cruel coincidences that occur. that it's hard to make sense of. And. last time you came on this podcast, I. would define it as for me anyway a. pretty cruel coincidence because we had. a conversation um to do with life.

generally and and success and the. mindset and psychology and all the. things that you're an expert on. And for. whatever reason that day, I decided that. I wanted to spend 30 minutes talking. about marriage, cheating, love, and. asking you these um very personal. questions about monogamy, which I've. never done before with any guest ever. And which I really had no place or. reason to ask you more than anyone else. And it just feels to me for what we're. going to talk about in part today that.

that was a bit of a cruel coincidence. And you know, one of the questions I. asked you was, um, do you believe in. monogamy? And then I asked you, can you. love someone and cheat on them? And when. I listened to that podcast back, I now. noticed um, why you laughed? Because it wasn't You laughed. Yeah. And. it wasn't a normal laugh. It was like a real belly laugh, right? Like a bit of a nervous belly laugh. Yeah. After we came off air on that podcast,

you told me something. Mhm. And uh it even gives me goosebumps now. thinking about what you said and it gave. the whole team in the room who overheard. our conversation goosebumps as well. So. after our 30-minute conversation about. marriage and monogamy and cheating and. love, what did you say to me? Showed you a story. Yeah. And that was uh about 2 weeks earlier. I'd been traveling back from London home.

and I got out of the train station. and my wife picked me up and we got into. the car and we had planned to go and. have brunch at my favorite little spot. They do amazing Corvos Rancho sauce. I. was very excited and she said, "Let's go. straight home. I've made sandwiches and. she doesn't make great sandwiches." So I. said, "No, no, I think the branch is a. better option." And she said, "No, there's something that I need to tell. you." And I said, "Is it bad?" And she.

said, "Yes.". And I said, "Is it about the marriage?". And she said, "Yes." And then we began. to drive back. and I had this sinking feeling in me. And we're we drove for about 5 minutes. in silence. And then I went to put my. hand on her lap and she said, "Don't. don't touch me cuz you won't want to. after I've told you what's happened.". And that's whenever it dropped. And I. remember that 10-minute drive back home.

then felt like an eternity. I was just. looking out the window and we got home. We got into the house into the kitchen. and I was standing by the kitchen table, hands rested on it. and I said, "What's happened?" And she. said, "I've been having an affair with a. man from work.". And I remember just tears began to. stream. I I didn't move, completely. motionless. Tears began to stream. And.

then she said, "And that's not all." And. she said, "I'm pregnant with this child. And in that moment, I felt like I lost a lot. You know, I'd. lost my wife. I'd lost life we created. I'd lost. uh the dog, our home, her my. parents-in-law, her family, everything. that I'd really held dear. If someone. said, "What makes a meaningful life?" I.

would have described these things. And. it felt like they just been snatched. away. It just came. crumbling down like a house of cards. And then fast forward two weeks and. Steve. decides to ask and I remember because. the first thing No, no, it was. fascinating cuz the first thing you. asked was, "You're married, right?" And. I did this high pitch laugh and I go, "Yes.". And then and then the conversation.

flowed on and and it's themes I'd really. thought about. Can you love someone and. cheat on them? Does monogamy. exist? Is it natural? Are we set up to. live a life where we're in one. relationship with one person only? And. so over the past. 18 months, it's been a process. And some of these. themes have been very real to me. I just as I reflect on that conversation.

and when I played it back um after you. told me, so we come off air, we stood. next to the table and the microphones. and you you explained to me what's. happened. I'm for the first time in my. life completely speechless. And the thing that blew me away even. more so than what you had said to me was. your ability to be so calm and rational. and objective in the answers you gave. And even when I listen back now, although there was that laugh, which was. a bit of an indication, um, you were able to speak about someone.

betraying you or being deceitful with a. level of calmness and apparent um, emotional uh, sort of restraint. that I I just admired so much from. someone that was right in the middle of. the emotional hurricane and had just. been victim of that act. And um you said. there you know about the topic of. monogamy. How did that change your opinion and and. and also the subsequent 18 months of. processing on the topic of monogamy? Um,

so as a quick aside, I like that analogy. and we touched upon it briefly about the. hurricane and and it's funny actually. because a friend of mine showed me a. book about a week ago and it was. different personality profiles depending. on the day that you'd been born on. And. whenever we looked mine up, there's a. little meditation at the end, uh, a. summary and it said, "The stillest part. of the hurricane is its center.".

And that essentially has been uh a. philosophy that's guided my life where. sometimes there's a storm and it's. horrendous and it's raging. But if you. can cultivate that sense of stillness. and calmness and clarity deep within. you, no matter what life throws at you, you will be okay. Because the second. part of. whenever I was told that news and and. the tears were were streaming and I felt. that sense of loss and overwhelming.

sadness. It was a remarkable moment where in that. instant and I can only describe it as a. whisper. I heard a whisper within me as. if it was resonating from a heart that. all will be well. Four words all will be. well. All will be well. And I knew even. then I knew whenever you know there's. tumultuous emotion I knew everything's. going to be okay. I will get through. this. I'm going to have to walk through.

the desert and I'm going to have to. endure a horrific amount on an emotional. level but it's all going to be fine. How did you know that? I think it's something that I've. cultivated over over 105 years and. that's why I do what I do now because I. want to help other people to be able to. reach that stage and and it began on a. journey of um Buddhist exploration and. understanding the nature of life and I. came to this realization that life. involves suffering.

There's no promise that it's going to be. happy golucky and really pleasant all. the time. really horrific things happen in life. And on one level, there's no way that we. can ever rationally explain it away. Sometimes bad things happen, but it. doesn't end there. It It's a bit like. that line that someone once said to me, whenever you're suffering, don't ask. God, why am I suffering? Ask God, where. are you taking me? And so I've I've developed this ability.

to. begin to view my life as though it's. happening to someone else, as though the. experiences, the thoughts, the emotions. are are something that I can I can. almost take it back on and have. perspective. And I can see it and I can. feel it. But I know that my thoughts, that isn't just who I am. My emotions. isn't just who I am. That's a temporary. experience. and and throughout my life,

no matter what has happened, even. whenever it's been brutal, it's often shifted me in a new. trajectory and there's been a new. meaningful life ahead of me. And I and I. knew even then, she's going to be okay. She'll be okay. It's going to be a tough. road for her too, but she'll be okay. And it's going to be a tough road for. me, too, but I will be okay. Anger. So many people in that situation whether. rightly or wrongly just because of the. way that they are would have reacted.

with anger. And for some reason you were. both calm in telling me you're calm now. And this remarkable thing which I I. think I. I struggled to understand a little bit. is one of your first concerns was her. well-being. Mhm. Versus your own. Mhm. Mhm. Why? Because I loved her and. I was in the practice of of placing her.

emotional well-being and. her happiness on the same level as mine, if not sometimes first and foremostly, but at least on on equal playing field. And. and I was just so in that habit. And. that was the toughest thing to let go. of. the thing that I still struggle with. today and and I'm still it's the one. part that I realized the other day. that I still had a fear of upsetting her. or of her not being okay.

And so that's something which just. just really developed and and was so. ingrained. And it's interesting on on. the point of anger. If you'd said like your wife. partner for 10 years, married for five, has an affair, and is pregnant with. another man's child, how will you react? I would have said anger. I would I'd be. furious, but it wasn't there. At least not. initially. It was this overwhelming. sense of sadness. It was just that sense.

of loss of knowing that again that she's. potentially done something that she. might regret for a long time. And I. don't want anyone to go through that. experience where they feel like they've. [ __ ] up hugely even if the the future. is positive in that moment. My sense is. there will be regret or at least shame. And so. it was a sadness because that was. connected to the loss, the sense of loss. of losing things that I held dear. Feels.

like you're living outside your body. a little bit. I guess that's what. self-awareness is or at least emotional. awareness is because you're being able. to see that situation which is utterly. horrific for anyone. Yeah. Um from as you say from like a bird's. eye view as if you've like. Yeah. looking down on it. And that's allowing you not to just feel. your own emotions but to feel empathy. towards theirs. Yeah. And I think I think that's the. path in my eyes that's the path to. enlightenment. And I'm not saying that I.

am enlightened, but I think we're all on. that path and we're all progressing. through it. And for me, that's what. awareness is. It's being able to. experience. internally your thoughts and your. emotions and externally what's happened. as if it's happening to someone else. You're like holding them out in front of. you and analyzing them, right? So like, but if you're not holding them out in. front of you and it's happening within. you, then you are just almost like a. passenger on a roller coaster. Totally. Whereas holding them out in. front of you kind of makes you the the. conductor or the roller coaster or at. least uh.

able to yeah understand and if you can. understand then you can address and then. you can overcome. Totally. I love it. Whenever you're. holding it really close to you you're. fused with it. Anything that happens. instantly will will provoke a reaction. whether or not it's emotional or. behavioral. But when you hold it in. front of you there's a bit more space. Now you still experience it. I'm not. going to lie to you. It was a brutal. couple of months. I cried every day uh. for maybe 3 months for hours hours. I I.

would I would walk and I'd process what. happened and if you want we can talk. about that at some point um about my. process of moving through it. But yes, it was I'm not going to say it. wasn't um emotionally painful, but. I wasn't defined by that pain. That was. just a part that I was experiencing. Let's talk about that. So a lot of. people experience grief in many forms. and this somewhat feels like this the. central emotion you described it as a. loss. It feels like a form of grief. What was your process for moving from.

you know finding out that it had. happened to to where you are today where. you're you know you've. quote unquote processed it I imagine as. much as you. might have been able to at this stage. Yeah. Some you know. what was your process? So where I think people often um catch. themsel in a in a counterproduct. productive cycle is whenever they try. and avoid experiencing what they're. experiencing. They try and shun it, lock.

it away, put it in a box, disconnect. from it, deny it, and they just focus on. the future and where I am going. And. they might try and rationalize it. Uh. this happened because of X or because of. Y. And then they try and forge ahead. And I think it comes back to bite them. at some point. The simplest truth is that we can only. ever experience. one moment at a time. And I remind. myself of that. I don't need to think. about right now the financial.

separation, the divorce, what it means. about friends or family or or will I. meet someone again or how long will it. be or what will my life look like or. where am I going to live? So many. different factors that could be. overwhelming. I just decided to deal. with one moment at a time. All I need to. do is deal with this one moment and what. is this one moment bringing me and. accepting and welcoming. It sounds. strange but welcoming whatever comes up. And so whatever emotion came up, I.

didn't try and push it away or shunt it. or deny it or negate it. I let it I let. it sit and that's why I cried so much. because it was so much sadness. Did you. write down the emotions you were. experiencing? So I didn't write down the emotions but. what I did in the next step is so the. first step was awareness and accepting. whatever emotions I felt and and a lot. and seeing that they come and then they. go you know that there'd be moments. where I'd be laughing with my brother. and then crying a minute later and then.

talking about something else. The second step was reminding myself of. reality. because I was so ingrained in. in an internal model of what life looked. like. I have uh strong stable marriage. in which my partner subconsciously. uh you know implicitly I believe is.

faithful. We're meant to be together. We're going to be together for the next. 50, 60 years until one of us dies. Uh, we're going to have children together. That was my internal model. And I had to rip it apart. I had to take. it down. I had to dismantle it. And I. had to remind myself of the reality of. the situation. I had to I had to accept. it. I had to accept it's over. It's not. going to change. There's no going back.

the final nail is in the coffin and you. need to take that on board. And I'd also write any so I'd write down. reminders of of what had happened. And I. also wrote down any insights I had about. the situation that I could remind myself. of. And I wrote down how I wanted to. handle this process. Um I can actually. read a few out if you want. Please. I've. got um so I I I literally would just.

write them down on my phone. Um and so. afterwards I I began to split them up. into different sections. Mhm. But this one was for the process. Hold yourself to the highest standard. Choose actions that you can be proud of. How you get through this process is more. important than how quickly you get. through this process. Cuz for me it was. important that I still lived with. personal integrity, that I didn't.

I wasn't warped or changed or um. consumed with vengeance or acted in ways. that was out of spite or out of emotion. I wanted to be able to look back on this. in 12 months, 18 months time and still. feel good about it, have a clear. conscience, still be able to put my head. down and feel as though I handled that. to the best of my ability. With God, you can get through this. You. can become stronger, wiser, more caring,

more compassionate, and more loving. And that's another theme that actually. the deepest moments of suffering can. actually. be opportunities for growth. Even if you. don't want it, there's something there. that that you can learn and can can grow. from. You don't need anything from her. anymore. Um and there and then different. reminders. You have nothing to feel bad. about. You aren't responsible. You have. nothing to feel guilty about. Nothing.

Because there were moments where my mind. would almost begin to in a way play a. trick on me and begin to try and create. reasons um to feel bad or to try and. create shame. And at those times while I. would accept what came up, I decided not. to pursue that line of thinking because. that didn't fit. Whenever I was calm and. clear, this came to me. And so I'd write. down whatever came to me. Whenever I was. in a place of wisdom,

then when the emotion hit. and I'm not seeing clearly and I've got. on a clouded lens, this little baby. became my best friend cuz I'd go back to. it and I'd remind myself and then it. would it would reshift. my mental paradigm. I have this um before, please do keep. your phone open because I want to hear. the rest of this. Okay. But I have this um analogy I make in. moments where I experience a very. similar thing that I'm going to tell you. one example. Yeah. It's It's the closest I can come. to resonating with what your experience.

is. I was dating this girl. and I broke up with her and three days. later I find out that she's had sex with. someone else, right? And I can only The way that I. described it was I'm flying on this. plane. and I'm the pilot. and then suddenly when I find when I. when I look down and hear the news that. she's just slept with somebody somebody. else. Yeah, it was like terrorists stormed the. cockpit and they chucked the the [ __ ].

rational pilot out and they were. threatening to crash the whole [ __ ]. thing. And my whole objective as the. pilot is to get back into the cockpit. before they crash this plane into the. side of a mountain because if they crash. the plane, I'm [ __ ] And so. what I wanted to do was lose my. integrity. I wanted to crash the plane. I wanted to get her back, take revenge, tell her she's a this, this, and a this, and a this, and a this. And it was this. because I've got to a place of where I'm. able to hold situations out in front of. me a little bit more than I ever was, you know, in the past.

I was at war with myself. Yeah. It was the terrorists on one end telling. me to crash the plane and the pilot. saying, "You've been here before. You. know, you just need to keep the plane in. the air until you. and and I and I'm so I'm going for a. run. I'm like, "Steve, go to the gym. Go. for a run. Clear your head." I'm at the. gym. The terrorists that And I'm like, "I'm going to finish. I'm going to. finish. They're back in." And then I. come back and back in. Yeah. Yeah. And the crazy conclusion to all of this. was my friend called me. and said a few things to me about. um why she did what she did. My friend.

said to me, "Remember Steve, you. rejected her. She really, really, really likes you. And she's done this as a way to make. herself feel better for the rejection. that you gave her." And it sounds like. such a pathetic thing to say, but what. it made me realize in that moment was. much of the reason why the terrorists. had stormed the cockpit was my ego was. bruised. And the thing that coached those. terrorists out the cockpit was my friend. massaging my ego again and and letting. me know that some of those stories we.

sometimes tell ourselves when we get. rejected about why we got rejected. Yeah. Weren't true. It's not because you're. not enough. Mhm. It's it's in fact because of something. you've done. And that was the reason why. I managed to take control of the. cockpit. I did nothing. I didn't punish. her in any way. Didn't even mention it. And it was and so yeah um but please. two two things come to me there uh one. is this uh emotion of anger so. fascinatingly 95% of the emotion for me.

was sadness. 5% was anger and the anger struck early. on it was the first night and I remember. I my brother had come over and and was. staying with me and I woke up in the. middle of the night the night of that. day that she told me and it was like My. body was burning. I I haven't. experienced anger like that before. It. was It was almost like I was a flame. I. was uh just infused with rage. And I.

began and I really feel for my brother. having to witness this, but I was just. moving up and down. shouting as loudly as I could, "My wife, my house, my wife, my house." And for 5. minutes it was like a supernova. It just. was. just seething. And then it burnt out. and I cried and I fell asleep and and. the next day and then the anger didn't.

really come much. It would come now and. again. But what I realized was the anger was. intimately attached to my ego. The anger came whenever I was attached. to my ego. And I'm very fortunate that. I'm able to detach from my ego the. majority of the time. But when I didn't, that's when it hurt because it came. about my wife. As if I own her. As if there's. ownership. As if it's a part of me. I don't own her. She's free.

My house. I don't even own the house. The mortgage company did. You know, but as soon as we link it to. ourselves and make it about us, Yeah. then it it's it's a place of. vulnerability because you're getting. inflicted. It's like getting stabbed in. the heart. You feel that, but it's an illusion because we are not. our ego. You know, we can see our ego. and have a relationship to our ego, but. once we're fused with it, we're in. trouble. And the other part of it is.

that. because I don't want to come across like. a saint like I didn't have dark thoughts. or, you know, I wasn't angry and I just. handled it with grace the entire time. But I operate from a principle that the. mind has a mind of its own. And I think. we talked about it last time. But essentially, your mind will populate. your head with thoughts. automatically. You're not asking for. them. It'll just come up with judges,

evaluations, assessments, predictions. about the future, past memories, imagine. scenarios. You know, if I said, "Okay, Steve, don't. think about anything right now. Just for. 10 seconds, have a complete blank mind, and I'm going to say a word, but don't. think about anything." Okay. So, we'll. just do it now. Don't think about a. thing. Mhm. Birthday. Okay. Right. So, even though you were. attempting not to think about anything, your mind came up with it automatically.

And. from my perspective, we are not our. thoughts. We have thoughts. Our mind. comes up with thoughts but that's not. me. I am the observer of the thought. Now why is that important? Because my. mind would come up with really brutal. thoughts. What thoughts? Like torturing the guy. Really? Yeah. Getting in a car, finding him in. the back of the van and doing this. elaborate elaborate of of of what I. would do to him. Absolutely. Because my mind was thinking.

about. about seeking vengeance. Justice. Just justice. And it was like a. Hollywood movie. and somehow no one found out and I went. back along my day, you know, and so. yes, you can have those or whenever I. was in deep pain, the thought of ending. my life popped into my head. I didn't have any intent. I wasn't. making any plans. I didn't want to kill.

myself. But my mind wanted a way out of. the pain. It was suffering and it wanted an end to. it. And what is one option? Killing. yourself. And so when I've got a. different relationship though with these. thoughts, when I think about torturing. someone or I think or when my mind comes. up with a thought of torturing someone. or my mind comes up with a thought of. taking my life,

there's no judgment. I don't think, oh, that means I must want to do it, or that. means that I will do it, or that means. I'm a bad person, or that means that I'm. evil. It just means my mind, I think, what is. my mind trying to do? It's it's trying. to solve a solution and it's probably. struggling to cope and it's trying to. find a way to make me feel better. M Neo. on this podcast who who came on this. podcast talked about how the mind is.

actually you know people think we're in. the search of pleasure but the mind is. programmed to avoid discomfort. we're constantly in trying to seek you. know avoid it and that's why we. procrastinate because we've got a big. project which is we might not feel. competent to complete or you know we're. a bit there's a feeling of discomfort. around it so we go and wash the dishes. or do the hoovering. um on the on the you mentioned wanting. to torture this man. I know right so like a moment of the. mind having. my minded Steve, you didn't want to. Your mind wanted to. I'm a peaceloving kind of guy. I just.

But I wanted to know how do you feel. about him? So, it's really interesting. I um. this stage the the process went. awareness and acceptance. uh how I wanted to handle the process. and then at some point I realized I. needed to find forgiveness.

I'm quite a simple person and I don't I. don't like having a lot of uh items or. objects or physical possessions and I. don't like having a lot of emotional. baggage either. I want to travel light, you know. I want to travel so lightly I. could pass through the eye of a needle, so to speak. And the weight of. anger or resentment or the feelings of. betrayal.

were weighing me down. and I wanted to forgive her and I wanted. to forgive him. And honestly, you could. view it as ultimately selfish because. it's not going to impact their life, but. it's going to make mine a lot easier. And during lockdown, I was in California. and I was lucky because in Santa Barbara. where I was staying, the mayor didn't. close the beaches because there's a lot. of families there. And he said, "As long. as you uh socially distance, it's fine.".

And I'd run along the beach. And I had. this process where I would say out loud, I would imagine her and I would say, "I. forgive you. I'm sending you my love. and I wish you. all the best for the future. And I. processed so much by that at that point. because I've been able to understand and. see her situation and in my mind I I. have an idea of how it was created and. why it unfolded.

And so there was compassion there and I. was able to reach that really relatively. quickly. That that was easy. The hard. part. was with him because I didn't know him. I didn't know his personality, his. background, who he was. He could be a. great friend and an excellent son or uh. potentially a very. loving partner, but all I knew about him was that he was.

prepared to take certain actions. And so. whenever I tried it with him and I'd. say, "I forgive you." It was like there. was a knot and a wimpse and I'd like and. I would say and I'm sending you my love. and I'm like. and I wish you all the best for the. future. You're still imagining pulling up in. that van and jumping out and.

blindfolding him dragging him sticking. something up his butt and. how do you like me now? Uh, and so but I would just notice that. I don't do you know there's tension. there and and actually I will say this. was a year after I'd heard the news. So. I didn't try and do this initially. I. think it would have been uh premature to. have attempted this whenever I wasn't in. a space where I had a lot more clarity. and and groundedness and and and process.

the emotion. The emotion wasn't being. clouded at this point. Now was what am I. holding on to? And for a matter of weeks, five, six. weeks, I was running two, three times a. week. And I would just try that try that. process. And then one day it was it was. remarkable. I was running along. And I. said, "I forgive you." And there was. nothing. And then I said, "And I'm. sending you my love.". And I felt easy. And I said, "And I wish.

you all the best for the future." And I. could tell that I meant it for them. or their baby, you know, for them. together as a family. And I felt at peace. and it's a bit like that saying, my yoke. is easy, my burden is light. Now, genuinely, it sounds strange, but I. don't really feel anything for them. It's almost as if, you know, if you came. to me and said, um, I've got a friend.

called. Mike and he's going through a really. difficult time. he was involved in a. really complicated emotional. relationship. Um, would you mind sending. out positive thoughts to him and saying. a prayer for him? I'd say sure. Like, he. hasn't ever done anything to me. I don't. have any connection with him. No. problem. It's almost that sort of. relationship now where they're just. other people on their journey. And I had. that shared history with with my wife, which I look upon fondly, particularly.

the first eight years. We had a. wonderful marriage for a long time, but. there's no emotional tinge. There's. it's like an emotional umbilical cord. I'm imagining it as like. it's a letting go. Yeah. It's a letting go. And so that was that was a part that for. me because I think there comes a time. where you have to say, okay, I process. it. I've processed it. How long do I. want to hold on to it for now? And.

that's becomes my own choice. Do I want. to carry this and let it define me or do. I want to finally let it go and see it. float down the river? And I think you know even you're someone. that has a remarkable ability to. practice like self-awareness and you. know you have that sort of like. emotional awareness as well. And it's. good to hear, I think, for everybody. listening to this that even your process. to from finding it out to, you know, being emotionally unattached to the.

matter to the point that you can forgive. both of them. wasn't linear at all. It was up, it was. down, it was up, it was down, and it was. long. And I think. people sometimes um think that their. experience of rejection or deceit or you. know um any of these things is uniquely. bad because their process to recovery. per se isn't linear and it's long and it. feels like the more I've talked about. this topic and the more people I've met.

and you know from hearing your. experiences that in fact is the only way. out and I actually think realizing that. that's the only way out will make your. process out of that deceit or betrayal. feel. normal and natural and okay and. therefore acceptable and and I think. that's a a really important point that. you've made through the story you've. told. Absolutely. And each person's journey. will be unique and there will be peaks. and troughs and it'll wax and wayne. And.

I'm very aware that. it's possible that my journey happened. over a relatively short period of time. because of my history and my background. as a psychologist as a high performance. expert. This is the area that I deal. with. It's what developing emotional. resilience. It's how do you help people. to cope with high stakes environments. when they've lost a sense of balance in. their life? When they're struggling in. their relationships whenever they.

experience something in life which. throws them how do you get back up? This. is what I've been trained to do for 15. years. Isn't it weird that life sent you. this challenge when you think about your. experience? Isn't it there must be a. part of you that cuz I think I would I. would think to myself. life is testing me to see if I can deal. with the worst and still maintain the. values and principles that I espouse. like. it it sounds this will sound really odd.

uh but I almost felt at times I thought. in a way I'm so lucky because I'm so. lucky that I am where I am when this. happened. If this had happened 10 years. ago, I would have been in a vastly. different space, right? Because I struggled 10 years to cope. with. what life gave me on an emotional level. and I would react out of the emotion. So. I'd experience it and then I would just. react and essentially that's when we.

make terrible decisions. Oh, you crash the plane. How we crash the plane. If you look at. NASA um astronauts, they prepare for uh. the sequence of events leading up to. launch and they run through that. over a hundred times from putting on the. kit to traveling down uh to the launch. space to what could go wrong and they. rehearse it and they run it through. And. it's a way of being able to stay calm.

whenever there is uncertainty or. turbulence or danger or threat. because that's whenever that's the. person you really want to be whenever. there's an emergency like we talked. about in the podcast. You want to be the. person that still has an air, a pocket, a space of clarity that isn't affected. So that even though you're experiencing. all these emotions on a very. physical level, deep down, you're still. grounded. You can take it. And so from.

where I was, I did feel. as though I'm fortunate that life has. thrown at me something that in my mind. was one of the worst things that I could. experience. There's lots of worst things. without a shadow of a doubt, but it was. a big one. Um, and find a way to move. through. And incredibly it's informed. even even my work. because in the last year.

again whether it's coincidence or not I. don't know the number of clients I've. been working with on relationship issues. has gone up exponentially and it's. issues centered on a loss of connection. a loss of intimacy. betrayal confusion. How do you. how do you stay true to who you are in a. relationship with someone else where you. feel like there's a shift or you wake up. one day and you're in a space where you. don't know how you got there where you.

become like best friends living together. rather than the passionate lovers you. were 10 years ago. You talked there a second about the calm. that astronauts are trained to develop. and how crucial that is to making good. decisions. I I I saw this quote the. other day and it said when emotions go. go up intellect comes down. and um I was thinking about just then as. you said that I was thinking what are. the factors that make somebody not calm. and then I thought and I kind of. answered myself I thought okay so it's. we talked about the ego playing a big. role and so I guess my conclusion there. is the people who will struggle to.

maintain their calm in situations like. that that are so personally associated. are those with the lowest self-esteem. and the most fragile ego. and it feels feels like the work that. you've described that you've done over. the last 10 years is really like. building your self-esteem and really in. some respects a separation from ego. Um, yeah, you've nailed it. One, we know on a neuro level, so we. know from neuroiming studies that when. we experience emotion, the preffrontal.

cortex, the part of the brain. responsible for judgment, decision-. making, impulse control, planning, goes. offline. it shuts down. So we don't have access to that. creativity, the. wisdom that we have usually. And again, absolutely I think the journey for me. the journey of of life involves. developing a robust sense of self. A sense of self that is unshakable,

that is immovable, that still. experiences life and the whole gamut of. emotions and and the beauty and. loveliness of life and also the darkness. and the destruction of life, but isn't. impacted on an essential level by it. And I think that's the journey and. that's the journey that I work on with. clients. No matter what the outwardly. symptoms are, could be weight gain, it. could be relationship dysfunction, it.

could be. struggling to experience that sense of. contentment or fulfillment in life even. though I have everything that life says. I should have. It could be feeling like. I'm I'm lacking or I'm just not doing. enough or I'm not being enough. But it. all comes back to that stronger sense of. self. and this um you know horrific experience. what has it done to your opinion of. monogamy. because I'm sure I'm guessing from what.

you've said the way that you planned. your life ahead you thought when you you. know when you went walked down the aisle. and you said those words till death do. us part you then planned the next 60. years of your life and how your life was. going to pan out. and when you said those words at the end. of the at the altar you were totally. convinced Yeah, totally convinced that this person was. the the person your soulmate. Um, how do you feel about all of those. concepts now like soulmate and monogamy. and till death do us part?

The experience led me to a position. where I began to question my deepest. assumptions about monogamy, about. marriage, about lifelong relationships. And in the same way I began to take a. step back and reflect and contemplate. I became very aware that there is a. social script for relationships and it. generally goes the conventional model is. boy meets girl. It's not even boy meets. boy or girl meets girl. There's a first.

date, a first kiss, uh a period of. courting. At some point um there will be sex. meeting the parents hopefully not at the. same time eventually [ __ ] relationship. becomes uh exclusive and then engagement. marriage children till death do its part. and I realize that that is a social. construction it's a conventional model. based on assumptions that monogamy is.

natural that marriage is a human. universal. and that any structure other than the. nuclear one is aberant. And so then I began to think okay well. what are the different what are the. different elements. So on the one hand. we can take and we touch upon it briefly. uh a evolutionary perspective.

and we are apes. It's not just that. we've descended from apes. We are apes. So we're one of the five homo sapiens. are one of the five surviving species of. great apes along with orangutangs, bonobos, gorillas and and chimpanzees. And yet at some point we. separated from that psychologically. And. actually the fine print that. distinguishes humans from other great. apes has been described by.

primatologists as wholly inadequate. It's it it's a fabrication. And at some stage we began to see. ourselves as special and unique and. above nature and exempt from our. primal history because we descended from. hypersexual ancestors. So if the homo. lineage has been around for 2 million. years, modern humans have been around.

for 200,000 years and about 10,000 years. ago, there was a shift in going from. hunter gatherers to settled communities. be because of the advent of agriculture. Now up until 10,000 years ago, the data now suggests that we actually. lived by fiercely egalitarian. principles. Everything was shared. Food, shelter, water, child care, and even sexual. partners.

Casual sexuality was the norm for our. prehistoric ancestors. For 95% of the collective experience of. our lineage, that is what we experienced. And it wasn't it wasn't based on. meaningless random relationships. They. were relationships that reinforced. uh a social pattern that that we needed. to survive. It minimized our risk and it.

reinforced social ties. But then with the advent of agriculture, we began to settle. We had then we had. land, we had uh domesticated animals and. for the first time private property came. into play and suddenly there was a. change and there's even a change in the. status of women because when we look at. it the human female up until that point. was on was on an equal playing field. They were as responsible for the hunting.

and the cooking and making decisions. about where they were going to settle. And then it changed and the female. became the property of the man, something that he had to maintain and. keep. And actually the reason that. property came into play is because we. weren't moving. So it did matter what. happened to our resources. We were. accumulating and biological paternity. for the first time became crucial.

And so on a on a natural evolutionary. level, monogamy didn't exist. We didn't live in. long-term monogous relationships. Then. we bring in marriage. And if we fast forward about 5 a half. thousand years. in about 2,350. BC and in Mesopotamia we had the first. marriage between the union between a man.

and a woman. And over the next few. hundred years it spread the ancient. Romans, Greeks, Hebrews, they began to. adopt this widespread practice. But. marriage had a diff had a very different. meaning across the ages. In the um fifth. century with Anglosaxons, it was about. securing trade ties. It was a diplomatic. tool. In the 11th century, marriage was. about financial, economic and political.

advantage. uh and as early as the 12th, religion be. became involved and and Roman. Catholicism tied it to sacrament and it. to being a sacred experience related to. experiencing God. Then about 500 years ago, Thomas Cranmer. came up with the modern-day marital vows. that we read out today. And he was the. architecture of uh English. Protestantism.

And then up until 1858, divorce was rare. Marriage was something which was. lifelong and it wasn't really. questioned. But then it became a legal. process that you could apply to do. And. it was still still relatively uncommon. because it was expensive and women had. to prove aggravated adultery, bestiality, sodomy, cruelty. And then. the divorce gates really opened up in. 1969 with the divorce reform act and.

marital breakdown could be could then be. cited. So whenever we begin to take a. different lens and and we see the. journey that it's taken and then we ask. well where are we today? Since 1975. there's been a drop in marriages by. about 30%. More people are now opting to. cohabit than they are to get married. Divorce statistics in England and Wales. are at 42%. You could arguably say that the system. is collapsing, that it is beginning to.

crumble. And then I would even take a cultural. lens and if I'm talking too much just. no I fascinating jump super fascinating. So. culturally um so the Spanish word. esposes means wife and handcuffs. We joke about the wife being the ball. and chain. Uh a friend got married got married got. engaged last week and the talk amongst. the boys was this is the beginning of.

the end of your sex life. Yeah, but women don't fare any better. You. know, 43% of American women report. sexual dysfunction. Viagra sales are. increasing every year. They're just. record highs year upon year. Porn is through the [ __ ] roof. Not that I would know. Yeah, a friend told me. Yeah. Um, the porn industry takes in about 57. to$undred billion dollars worldwide.

A US report showed that Americans spend. more at strip clubs than they do at. Broadway, off Broadway, nonprofit and. regional theaters, the ballet, jazz, and the opera collectively. We look at the church and. there have been hundreds of Roman. Catholic priests admitting to thousands. of sex crimes. In 2008, they paid out. $436 million to victims of sexual abuse.

A fifth were under the age of five. And these aren't that's not to mention. the forgotten victims. And we have to ask ourself, one, how did we get here? Two, how was. that story constructed? And three, is. marriage giving us what we want? And is. it realistic and is it feasible? So number three. So where am I with that? Yeah. Yeah. I'm still touring. I'll be totally.

honest with you. I can. say it. I can imagine. Okay. So I can. imagine on the one hand I can imagine. being in a relationship with with a. woman and and being with that one woman. for the rest of my life. I can also imagine. being. with someone in a relationship and. having more than one sexual partner. But. but if if it was flipped around and.

someone asked me, "Would you want your. partners to be with other men?" I'd say, "Hell no.". Of course. Like it just seems Yeah. it that is not. something cuz I'm so strongly programmed. against that even though that's. potentially the biological heritage. I. can't imagine being with someone who's. with with other people. I wouldn't want. to be in that situation. And I'm aware. of the acute hypocrisy contained within. it. Yeah, I think everyone feels the same. way to some degree. I think people that.

tell you otherwise are probably talking. [ __ ]. because they're playing defense against. not wanting to happen to them to some. degree, right? Um, it's I think it's an ideal situation. for yourself, but not for the person. you're with from your perspective. I. read this book a long time ago called. The Mystery Method. um by one of the world's number one. pickup artist. And I don't know if this. is true, but what he was saying was men. are programmed in a way that seeks um. the woman to be faithful for them.

because the risk the evolutionary risk. was if I impregnate you as my wife um or. no, if I if I'm committed to you as my. wife and then you are you cheat on me. and get pregnant with someone else's. child, I will then spend my resources, my energy, my time raising someone. else's. um child and then my genetics won't pass. on that person's will. And essentially, if you think about it from an. evolutionary perspective, I then. wouldn't have existed if I didn't have.

that concern about making sure my sperm. was the one that reached the egg. I So, you think about it from an evolutionary. perspective, you wouldn't exist if your ancestors. hadn't done a brilliant job of making. sure their sperm hit the egg. Mhm. And one of the ways of doing that was. making sure it wasn't another guy sperm. hitting the egg. by being territorial, by being whatever. And on the other side, from the woman's. perspective, the book talks about how, you know, if a woman got 8 months. pregnant.

um tens of thousands of years ago, she. can no longer hunt and gather for. herself. So really, she has to find a partner. that isn't going to abscond, that isn't. going to bounce, especially once they've. had sex. And so the book kind of talks. about some of the the reasons why, you. know, in society we typically think. women are more in search of a. relationship and are trying to, you. know, get a guy more than men are. typically. Um, is because from an. evolution perspective, they would have. died on the savannah in Africa or.

whatever if if the guy had sex with. them, impregnated them at a time when we. didn't have birth control, got them 8. months pregnant, and then bounced. Yeah. and and I don't know how true that. is, but it's something that I've. believed because I've read this book for. some time. So that's the dominant. traditional understanding of human. sexuality. because whenever you look at other. species, yes, it's about essentially an. aggressive alpha male than uh being with.

a uh female and knowing that. their offspring is being continued. through that lineage. There's an alternative which has come. out more recently where uh I know. there's a paper published in science in. 2015 that actually showed that what. separated humans from other great apes. was our social organization. Yeah. About 10,000 years ago we started. living next to water and in camps.

Exactly. Yeah. So and then we were a tribe. essentially. I've read about that. And. up until that point though, it's very possible that we had uh. multiple sexual partners. but biological paternity was less of a. concern because our structure was such. that so what we found out now is we. didn't used to live with our close. relatives. We actually created social. ties with other individuals. And so. we're set up in such a way that the. focus wasn't ever on individual.

survival. It was on group survival, group identity, group welfare. And the. reason is it's the group that keeps you. alive anyway. And so it's very possible that then. there was a shift which happened. actually with this advent of private. property because that's whenever. paternity would matter. Because there's. some huntergatherer communities that. believe when multiple men have sex with. a female.

that it's to collectively because you. have to think where does our. understanding of the sperm and the. embryo come from. That's very recent. It's a very recent biological. understanding. Our ancestors wouldn't. have known that. And there are some. beliefs where collectively the men. contribute to. the production of the child. that actually it's almost like an. amalgamation of the different men then. creates that child and that child. becomes part of the group as opposed to. that one person's child. And this is the.

thing just to like challenge that. thinking. Say that there was one man in the group. that was slightly better at making sure. he was the one that. inseminated the female. Yeah. He his genes would pass on his his. genetics would pass on as being slightly. better for whatever reason at. inseminating a woman. And uh therefore. in the next round of you know the next. generation he would have a slight. advantage potent that that the kid of.

that man would have a slight genetic. predisposition for being good at that. which would increase the probability. that it would pass on again and again. and again. And it seems like that that. those genetics and that ability to be. good at inseminating, whether it's. through being territorial or being. stronger or being more persuasive or. being more, you know, more of a peacock. um through generations over the space of. a million years from the chimps, that would create a scenario where we. are programmed to be. through our psychology and our behavior. and our peacocking good at,

you know, Yeah. at winning. Yeah. Even through slightly more malicious. methods or. Yeah. And then there's also the social. conditioning and the ideas of of. marriage, of monogamy, of romanticism, of what that means. And and I think what. I've really come particularly through my. work with clients is seeing that where. people find themselves in trouble is. when there's inshment. Whenever there's. too much when there's too much closeness. when actually the identity of one person.

is submerged with the identity of the. other. and there's no space. Did that happen to you in your marriage. where you became more like her. It's incredible that you ask that. I have a little announcement to make. And if you're watching this on YouTube, you might have seen a little clue as to. what I'm about to say. When we brought. this podcast back and we decided that we. were going to do it every single week on. Monday, we also decided that we wanted.

to find a sponsor and a partner to help. support the growth of this podcast so. that we can take it all over the world. We can produce the video format, we can. hire a big team, and we can make sure it. gets out to as many people as possible. And so, here's what I did. I thought of. a couple of companies that I really, really love and companies that I've used. for many, many years and I've been an. avid customer of. And one of those. companies, in fact, the first company I. contacted was this one, Hule. And if you. if you don't know what Hule is, then you.

must have been living under a rock, per. se. But Hule has been a huge part of my. life for about four years. I I first. started drinking Hule four years ago. when I first moved to New York and I was. running Social Chain. And the reason I. did was because I was frequently missing. meals. I And if you if you know me. personally, you'll know how true this. is. I will wake up in the morning and. I'll rush through my day meeting meeting. meeting speaking on stage flying. somewhere and I'll get to about 900 p.m. and I wouldn't have eaten a single.

thing. And there's no, you know, nutritional expert in the world that. will tell you that's a good thing. And. what then happened was I was binge. eating at 9 or 10:00. And when I say. binge eating, I mean like two large. Domino's pizzas to myself. And so then I. discovered this thing called Hule about. 4 years ago. And for me, Hu is a. nutritionally complete drink, which. means that I don't have to spend hours. preparing food, which I wouldn't do. anyway. Hence why I was skipping meals. It means that I get all the good stuff I. need to perform and have a good diet, but I can have it in like 20 seconds.

And as someone that values time so, so. much. Hu was a godsend. I've been a. customer for I think four years. I've. had my subscription with Hu for four. years. is. So, when I was looking for. someone to sponsor the podcast, I. contacted the CEO who's been on the. podcast before, Julian, and has built. this staggering company. I sent him an. email. I said, "Listen, Julian, I would. love you to sponsor my podcast because I. can actually talk about your product. authentically." And he said to me, "Because you've had a subscription with. Hule for the last 3, four years, and I. know you're a customer, he was up for.

doing it." So, I thank you. And um every. week on the podcast I'm going to talk. about different things to do with hule, to do with time saving, to do with um. diet and nutrition. And of course, we're. going to get Julian back on the podcast. at some point. Their company is doing. unbelievable things in the UK. If you've. not seen and sort of kept up with the. progress of your I highly recommend you. do because it's one of the most exciting. companies we've seen in the UK in a. long, long time. And uh it's an absolute. honor and a privilege to to have them. sponsoring the D of CEO, the perfect. company to be on this podcast because,

you know, it's a company that is so in. line with some of my central values. Did. that happen to you in your marriage. where you became more like her? It's incredible that you ask that. Whenever we first met, she was the sensible one. She was very. prudent, very pragmatic, very. levelheaded. She made very safe, sensible choices in.

life in general. And she was known in. that way. I was a bit more of a rogue. I. was uh. a little bit more mysterious. There was. probably. sort of, you know, hint of mischievous. of um Yeah. have playfulness. and and there's an idea in psychology. that. we all that we seek in the other person. a part of ourselves that we've lost.

And so there was almost that um that. attraction there. It created that. chemistry. It drew us in together. I. think she was looking for that. excitement and and in a way that safe. danger. I was actually looking for. stability and groundedness. and over time it it connected us and. brought us together. But over time a. remarkable thing happened and that is. just like you said I began to become.

more like her. I became became safer and I actually. lost an intrinsic. part of who I was. I lost the. the wild child that's in me. I lost the. part that's a bit more dangerous, that's. a bit more risky, that doesn't always. say something which is politically. correct. And I became almost like a. sanitized, clean version of who I was. And that's.

not the man that she met. And that's not. the man that she fell in love with. And on one level it it worked in terms. of. a stable love. There was reliability. There was dependability. There was. relatability. But it crushed the desire. There was a. slow suffocation. of that desire over the last couple of. years.

And so I believe that. one day. she woke up and she sensed that loss of. connection which I also sensed too and. that loss of intimacy and she was. scared. And when the mind is scared it comes up. with thoughts. Is this it? Am I going to. have to live like this for the next 10, 20 years? will I ever get that chemistry.

or that connection back? What if it. never comes back? And when we're afraid, we're then. seeking that that part of ourselves that. we've lost. And so, it's almost less. about the other person and more about. us. It's less about turning away from. our partner and more about turning away. from a part of ourselves. It's less about finding another person. and more about finding another part of. ourselves in which we feel alive. And I.

think the fair would have been wildly. tempting, wildly exciting. It would have. been. all the things it would have given her a. lot of the things that we had in the. beginning that she missed and suddenly. it was back. And even the structure of. an affair is such that. you can't have the other person. And the. forbidden is erotic. And it's set up in such a way that it. just perpetually creates desire because. it it has to be secretive. It can't be.

long lasting for long periods of time. There's continual space. Now, if fire needs air, desire needs space. And we found ourselves in a situation. which we were seeing each other every. day. I used to be traveling. I used to. be working away a lot more. We we'd have. pockets where we'd be apart and in that. pocket, even if you're away for a day or. a couple of days, there's a sense of. loss on a very micro level and then a.

sense of excitement of the person coming. back and reimagining that life together. And so going back to your point, I did I. change and that's on that's something. which I've learned from. I've ch I. changed and I became. like a squeaky clean version of me and. and she ironically ended up turning. towards what she'd lost. Is.

that something you regret? I could feel regret in the way that I. said it there. Yes. Yeah. Being being honest. If I. could have if I could have changed on. one level, if I could have changed that, if I'd been aware of that and I' and I'd. seen it coming, then. I would have wanted to to stay true to. who I am. And that's the path I'm on. now. And I'd be curious to hear your.

thoughts. But I. I want to live in line with my truth. And it's like John 8:32, the truth will. set you free. And I believe that when. we're living in line with our truth, it. saves you. And whenever we. neglect our truth, it it destroys you. Yeah. And so if I if I'd. if I'd been able to stay truthful, I. think it would have been a very. different trajectory. I don't because.

the relationship worked on multiple. levels and we and and it did. We had a. wonderful um time together for for eight. years. But it's a little bit like like. putting a frog in boiling water. It was. in cold water and the desire is the frog. is alive. You don't notice the heat. There were unknown factors that were at. play. and it was a dance. It was both of us. There's no we're we both contributed to. that situation. And I think she wanted. me to be that stable, dependable, reliable person without realizing that.

on a subconscious level, she actually. was attracted to the man that I was. And. I wanted to make her happy and didn't. want her to. be the kind of person that creates t. tension or or or there being too much. grit, but actually tension is what. creates fire at the same time. M. and so the rough edges were a part of. who I was and I didn't need to get rid. of them. It's so crazy. It's almost quite. contradictory. The typical narrative you. hear about relationships is especially.

from, you know, dare I say it um women. movies and on Instagram is there's this. conversation around can I change him? M. and it's and it seems typically that. people want to change their or they they. hold out hope or they want to change. their partner in some way to make them. more like the image they have of that. person. But in fact, what you're describing is. the thing that ends up saving the. relationship is a finding someone that.

you love for the way that they are and. you're attracted to for the way that. they are, but then both parties having a. resilience to change. Mhm. um to some degree because of that. understanding that you formed your. relationship on the basis of this person. being like this. and then but then you say okay so. over time people change and in fact in. the last podcast we did. there's a quote where you said change is. the only constant. so both of you are going to change.

anyway and you talk about the spiritual. psychological change that both parties. go on. and again this kind of draws it back to. the conversation around monogamy is you. know you're going to change anyway like. you 10 years ago versus you now is. probably a little bit more stable and a. little bit more you know solid and a. little bit more rational in your. thinking. Um and because as you said in the last. podcast change is a constant. How do you form a how can you guarantee. that death will do you part. when change might do you part first?

Mhm. Mhm. And and this kind of brings us back to. the conversation around monogamy, which. is I guess it's my question to you is. like if you what do you suspect now. if not marriage is going to be. the way that you know when you meet. someone what do you suspect? What's your. hypothesis on how that relationship will. be constructed. for me personally? Yeah, I've got mine. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But mine kind of. I can tell you mine if you want first. Yeah. Okay. So, mine kind of draws on.

something. and then I'll just say me too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We'll both go down together. So, what it was interesting what you. said there about um space being. the the air to a flame, right? And for me that's so critical earlier on. when you were talking about marriage. One of the factors you you you were. talking about was how. where marriage came from as a social. construct and how it centers on like you. know you know religion and and God and. all of these things and one of the.

things that I think is also really. important to understand is as a general. first principles rule if people are. different. and we all are different every single. human being on this earth is different. then the solution should be different. like the the glove we fit is different. we have different sized feet and. different sized hands so the solution to. love or whatever that is, as binary as. it sounds, should therefore be bespoke. to who you are and the life you're. living. And for me, I live a life where. I'm I get my fulfillment out of the.

podcast and my work. And that's it's. such a big part of my wiring. I can't. change that. It's the way that I am. I'm. different from my brother and he's only. a couple of months older than me. I'm. completely different. And so as it. relates to love and me having a bespoke. solution to when I meet someone and I. want to have kids or I want to, you. know, want them to be my partner. Um the. solution should also be bespoke. And so I look at the situation that. would be right for me and it is one. that's really really rellyant on space. Yeah.

I love being on my own. I'm happy there. I I love having time to myself to. reflect, to think, um to work on my. projects. Space is such a big thing for. me. So marriage and the idea of moving in. with someone and then being, you know, on top of me seven days a week for the. next 60 years is is a is something that. I almost can't understand. I'm not sure. if I'm like psychologically [ __ ] up. and that's why I can't deal with that. But I love this idea as the founder of. Hu said on this podcast of treating my.

relationship with my romantic partner in. the same way that I treat my. relationship with my best friend. Me and. my best friend seem to get on perfectly. well and we and I can't see a divorce. ever coming. You know what I mean? Because we have that space and we have. the the middle ground that we meet upon. which is the relationship. but we have a fundamental amount of. space um. which we both need. Like in fact my best. friend moved in with me in lockdown for. a month and yeah uh you start to piss me. off like you breathe so [ __ ] loud.

You know what I mean? like like clean up. after yourself. How lowly do you choose? We had an argument. I remember we I go. over something stupid like a video game. or something. Um so I going to conclude. the point. I know for me that space and. the lack of being on top of each other. is something that would be a fundamental. part of the relationship I have. I'm. willing to commit because I actually. can't see a world where I would allow. them not to or I'd be happy with them. not. Even the word allow it's like. permission, right? It's like such a.

[ __ ] thing to say. But I can't see a. world where I would be okay with them. not committing to me. So I I I'm going. to have to concede that and I think I'll. figure that out hopefully if we can keep. the sex good. Right. So space and commitment. I hate the idea. of marriage. I don't think religion or. the law have any in should have any. involvement on the topic of love. I think they'd have a terrible track. record. Religion with homosexuality and. and the you know the history it has on. love and the law. I don't see why a. court would have anything to do with how. I feel about someone. So I hate the idea.

of marriage. Some kind of commitment. that offers me space with the right. person where we both understand that at. some point we might grow out of each. other. And when we do um that's fine. And I'm going to conclude with one point. which you actually said in the last. podcast which was when I asked you about. monogamy and about committing to someone. for life, you said to me. um don't view it like that. Just ask. yourself the question every single day. Yeah. today. Am I happy to spend today, this day with this person in this.

relationship? If the answer is yes, fine. Yeah. If the answer is no, then there's. something that needs to be addressed. Yeah. Thanks for sharing that. Don't use it. I've actually got a photographic memory. where doesn't have word for word. Um, what I know for for me is there's. definite similarities in that. realistically I can't see myself being.

in a non- monogous relationship and if I. was with someone that would be the. person I would be with. In the past though, in our last podcast. when you asked me about the definition. of love, that hasn't changed. in that I believe that love is fostering. that emotional and spiritual growth of. someone else. But what has changed is. what I've realized. In order to. distinguish though between a partner.

that you're with and a partner that you. have connection and chemistry and. intimacy with, there has to be that. physical intimacy. which which is maintained and which is. and will wax and wayne but which can. still be a light because whenever it. dies it irrevocably shakes the. foundation of the relationship. And I. don't think I put enough importance on. that. I almost had like a zen-like view.

of marriage as opposed to appreciating. And it was it was funny. It was a um. someone I was speaking to and they were. saying. from a male perspective. Females want the new man during the day. to be kind, sensitive, loving, and they. want a neanderthol. tie them up, hang. them and tag them at night. Yeah. And it but you know it got me thinking. because.

what if the same ingredients that lead. to a longlasting loving. relationship or monogous marriage, stability, dependability, relatability, safety, protection, caregiving? What if. these are the same ingredients that kill. desire? Because. what I think is true is that, and I. should just speak for myself, what I potentially find attractive in.

the bedroom might be the things that I. actually stand against during the day. There might be power and there might be. dominance and that doesn't match up with. how I see myself during the day. And so. then you reach this. conflict. And I think what I began to do. was I began to. become the new man and only the new man. And actually what I want to do more. often is to tap more into.

both sides. I mean far too honest. No, no, there's no such thing as far too. honest. We talked about the importance. of living your dream. That's what I'm trying to lean into. 100%. And uh and there's this great. philosopher called Usher who says, "A lady in the streets and a freak in. the bed." And it's like, and it I heard. that lyric maybe 8 years ago, and I. literally say it to my friends all the. time when I'm talking about the type of.

partner that I want. And it's matching. up exactly what you said, the civility. and the class with the lack of class. and the freakishness and the and and. it's it's hard to find and maintain the. balance. Um. I found. Yeah. And because sex can be really. a journey of somewhere that you go. And. so then there has to be that trust and. that safety there. And at times it might. be about uh letting go of responsibility.

and surrendering. It might be about. taking control and being dominant. But. it's an understanding. what it means to you and and at what. times they should unfold and and be. allowed to live so that your imagination. can live. because when it doesn't and. then it just becomes an act or something. that you should do or a way of having. children then we begin to feel lost and. that's you know what's happened with a. lot of clients that I've seen and so.

going back to how I would want to. imagine the situation is yes it'd be a. monogous relationship with with another. um with with a woman and. I would want to try and stay true to who. I. and still keep keep that whole version. of me. And that's what I've learned. keeping and I've gone back to that. The. wonderful thing is would I you know you. ask me what do I regret it? The reason. also why I don't regret it cuz I'm not.

holding on to it is because the changes. have happened and I've trusted that it. was meant to be and it was meant to. unfold that way and I'm much more in. tune with who I am now. So, I finally. got my motorbike license and bought my. Triumph Bonnie uh yesterday. Amazing. Um, and I'm doing the things which and I. realized cuz I'm drawn to more of a. sense of risk and danger and actually. activities where I have to be consumed. within that moment and be present. Uh,

and I'm getting back in touch with who I. am and how I want to live my life and. and what I want to stand for. And it's. on me to maintain that with the next. person that I'm with. Another thing I. learned was the space because where we. went wrong is whenever we didn't have. the space and actually I realized I. really enjoy living alone. I love that. freedom. My other relationships are very. important to me with my brother, my best. friends. And so I don't know yet what that will.

look like, but it will definitely involve more. space. and and also that sense of adventure and. spontaneity cuz that's what I enjoy. I. want to travel. I want to see different. countries and I I can set my life up. where I'm doing that potentially with. another person or. still pursuing my passions and that is a. safe relationships relationship where. that person knows that I love them and. I'm there for them but I won't always. be.

But then kids comes around. in the same room. [ __ ] up this whole fantasy like do you. know what I mean? Because then. we'll deal with that in podcast three. But that's that's the bit where I'm. like, "Okay, it's all wonderful and. perfect." I was just thinking then my. last three relationships, they've all. lived in another country and it's and. it's probably the reason why it works is. because I can walk around here in my. boxer shorts all day just like drinking. my heel, you know, eating my pot needle. or whatever. and um being myself and then we come. together. when they come there or I go there or we.

find wonderful, love it, great. And then. I go back and have my, you know, my. bachelor lifestyle, you know. Um but. yeah, like I I think um kids is a is a. really. a topic which we would be like. intellectually dishonest if we did it. didn't. Yeah. address because there there'll be people. listening to this that think okay well. that's all well and good but when you. become a father or a mother. Mhm. you have to be there for your kids. Yes. And there's not a lot of science that.

says it's not good to be there for your. kids. Right. Yes. And in the same way that we can start to. though make sure that we clarify between. what the science says and then what the. script is. Sure. Because absolutely we know that uh. children will have better emotional. outcomes and even physical development. and uh situational success whenever they. are brought up with a sensitive.

caregiver. Someone who is responsive to. their needs, someone who hears them, can. hold them, give them safety, but also. permission to be able to travel and come. back. and who's invested in that child. But I'm not aware of studies that say. that the parents have to be living in. the same home in the one house 12 months. of the year and be their lives to be set. up in a certain way. And I don't know.

what the answer is yet and I'm not at. that stage yet. But I would be curious. whenever I am at that stage to begin. exploring. And it might not be as. radical as is envisioned at a certain. point in time. But there might be enough. space or enough still spontaneity or. adventure or playfulness even on an. internal level or in the way that you. set your life up. where both partners have that space and. still are able to maintain that passion.

Isn't it crazy how much of life's misery. and failure and um. unhappiness stems from either trying to. conform to the conventional way or the. script as you say. or trying to fit into or even sometimes. answer an invalid question. And we. talked a little bit about this on the. last podcast where I said, you know, I. think so many people live their lives. trying to answer invalid questions like. what number is orange is what I said. last time. And in the same way you got, you know, the question, are you in love?

Presumes a yes. Just by asking it, I'm. forcing you to to to say yes or no. I'm. also presuming that we've agreed upon. the definition of in love, which again. is just a [ __ ] maze. Cuz no one's. ever told me what that is. No, you're. not born. And they go, "Okay, God, by. the way, if you ever feel this, that's. love, okay?" And you go, "Okay, got. you." Right? Cuz I, you know, and the. word is so loosely, I love peanut. butter. I love my dog. I love my. girlfriend. I love my wife. I love my. mom. And it's like, so what is it? Different types. It's such a [ __ ].

confusing, complex, nuance thing, love. And we're forcing it into this yes or. no. Yeah. And people will like they'll ruin good. things because they they. they feel pressured or they're unsure if. this is it, you know? And um I just I. just wanted to kind of leave that point. there in a sense of like the idea of. like you know so I know so many people. listening to this will will be. unknowingly programmed by convention and. it's like the first principle thinking. and the ability to question why you're. doing what you're doing.

and then I guess lastly to have the. fearlessness or the courage to. potentially interrogate and then reject. it. um that can literally save you in. every facet. It saved me like go to. university, get a job, do this, and I I. I stopped going to school because I. thought it was a load of [ __ ] Dropped. out of university after one lecture, started a business. And I am, as I've. said on this podcast before, I'm the. happiest person I know. I reached a level of success at a. ridiculously young age. I managed to. like write us write a new story, write a.

new script for how life can be lived. Mhm. And um people admire me and listen to. this podcast. basically only because not because I'm. smarter than anyone else or anything. else. It's fundamentally if you go back. to where it started was because I for. some reason was willing to question the. script. and then had the as they call it. fearlessness for me it wasn't fear for. me the biggest fear was [ __ ]. following the script clearly right but. had the perceived fearlessness to say. well this doesn't make sense.

Mhm. Um, yeah. How does that resonate with you? Two things come to mind. One is that. like you said before, the solution in my. mind will be bespoke because we're. trying to take a one-sizefits-all. solution, a panacea, and apply it to. everyone. And and we're all unique. And. it's important, I think, for us each to. begin to become aware of the emotional. resistance we have to considering. possibilities outside of the.

conventional nuclear family unit and. just begin to think about what that. might mean and and where where we might. be able to see change. And the second. part is to ask yourselves, what do I. think I have to have in order to be. happy? So in relationships often people. think marriage, children. In business it could be. X revenue, Y setup, zed lifestyle.

And then we can ask what will that give. me? Why will it make me happy? Because. below will be the emotional need. So it. could be uh in relationships this could. be because I want affection, physical. intimacy, a sense of belonging, uh. stability. For something else, it could. be status to be accepted by others, not. to be judged. But isn't just a question, isn't the actual truth based on that? So.

on that point of marriage, people. thinking that they think marriage will. make them happy. They've never experienced marriage. before, right? So where have they got that idea. from? It's I think that the actual the. fundamental truth is. because they told me it would make me. happy. Yeah, we've been sold that story. But what do people really want? What are. they wanting out of the marriage? If you go deeper, there will be an. emotional need that they're trying to. meet through the marriage that they. think the marriage will provide the. solution to, but like you're saying, it.

doesn't. Well, it can, but it might not. And so, what people might actually want. is. emotional connection. or companionship. You know, if you said, "Describe the. marriage, the ideal marriage to me,". they might say, "Well, we're happy and. we're there for each other and I have a. confidant or a best friend or I have a. lover." It's understanding those. different parts. When we've broken that. down and understand what we're what. we're actually yearning for or searching. for, we can then ask, can I meet those.

needs in a slightly different way that. doesn't necessarily prescribe to the. conventional model? And that's first. principal thinking in essence, which is. exactly going back to like the. fundamental. Yeah. Yeah. Which is how Yeah. Yeah. And and which is what I said. before is what I love about your mind. because you take it back to your first. principles. and then that's whenever you potentially. become, you know, I just. new things. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's it's such a I I wish the.

school taught kids how to think in that. way because the when I the first. principles just going back to the. university point for me were I want to. be a I want to start a business and be a. millionaire. That's what my stupid ass. brain was thinking at that point, right? So this piece of paper, who am I going. to show that to if I'm self-employed? Yeah, it's a good point. I don't want to. show it to myself. Mhm. Everyone else um everyone else around me. is sleeping on their desk and hung over. and I'm going to have the same stamp. that they all have, but that's actually. probably going to work against me.

And I swear to God, this isn't I'll tell. you if it was hindsight [ __ ] I was. thinking that I've got this vivid memory. of my first day at university and my. last um of looking over and this girl. bit being sat on my right and she was. drunk and sleeping on the desk. And I. didn't get into a good university. because I got expelled from school. So I. didn't really take my exam seriously. either again because of the same. thinking. Um, but I remember thinking. I'm going to go I'm going to get the. same trophy as her. Is that how is that going to help me? Do. you know what I mean? If we both show up. and I was just think and then you've got.

it was boring as [ __ ] Like they I've. been running businesses since I was 14. Day one they were like make a poster. I. swear to God the lesson my last lesson. in my first at university was make a. poster. And I thought this isn't going. to in terms of the information part. that's not going to give me the. information I need. And it was that. And. I walked out of there. I walked into the. business office and I spoke to the head. of business at the university and I. said, "I'm going to defer for for a. little while." She said, "Cool. Fill out. this piece of paper and you can defer.". I never even filled it out and never. went back. Turns out I actually hadn't properly.

registered for university either, like. as I was meant to. So, I didn't really. have to defer to be honest, but um and. that was it. And you know, I want to I. want to move on cuz you spent a long. long time talking about this topic. I. you said earlier on that you spent. lockdown in California. Yes. which is uh you know I'm jealous. You don't know and and it cuts both. ways. You don't know what's going to. happen in the next moment. We have a. projection of the way that we think our. lives will unfold and often we become.

tied to it and bound to it and any. deviation we can see as a failure of. some sorts. But actually sometimes life. has other plans for us. And when we don't know what's going to. happen, I think it keeps that freshness. You keep fresh eyes and you stay. grateful for what you do have while you. have it. On the other hand, we don't know what's going to happen and. it could all be taken away from us at. any point. And I've got a good friend of.

mine and his father uh just had a stroke. a couple of days ago and they now know. the outcome is he won't be around. 10 days ago I was walking in in South. Ken and 5 minutes after I passed and was. coming back there was um barriers put up. and. a uh refuge collector had been walking. out in a bus and knocked him down and in. an instant. his life was over. And I just imagined, and I could be.

completely wrong, but I could I. imagined, gosh, he he might have a. family. He might have said goodbye to. his wife and the kids in the morning. And he went off to work. And he had no. idea. And she had no idea. And and the. things that were really that might have. been niggling or causing arguments don't. matter now. Like none of that matters. now. And and I didn't see what was going. to happen coming. And And I, you know, I. lost on one level. I lost a lot and it. makes me really appreciate what I had.

But then on another level, that wasn't. the end to the story. And then it was as if life said, "You're. on this path and I'm going to shunt you. onto a new trajectory and that's the. path you're meant to be on. This is. where you're meant to be going." And I. believe that it's a part of my path and. it was meant to unfold this way. The. universe is unfolding as it should. And. it's a lesson for me to continually. trust. And that's why that voice came up. in the very beginning in my heart saying.

all is well because I know on a deep. level that all is well. It's just about. trusting sometimes letting go of our. ideas and living in this moment. I can think of a better ending. Listen, I I don't even you know, thank. you so much for so many reasons because. what you've done today on one hand will. probably be selfish selfish as I as you. move forward and realize that the. release of your truth and talking about.

it and processing it with people is. always liberating. But on the other. hand, it's incredibly selfless because. there are so many people that are going. going to have less pain, deal with their. pain better, and understand themselves. and hopefully be a little bit more. self-aware because you had the guts and. the um and the, you know, the humility. and lack of ego to share what is an. incredibly emotional um touching. personal um experience. And so, thank. you so much. It's it's helped me, you.

know, and I have no doubt that the. hundreds of thousands of people that. listen to this, it's going to help them. in the same way. Um, if people want to. find you and they want to talk to you. about this, and I'm sure there will be a. lot of them, you know, the podcast was big back then, it's much bigger now, right? Um, how do they find you? What's the. best way to reach you? So on Instagram. it's just gr. i a. uh or my website which is dren r i.

a.com. And what kind of services do you offer. people that are going through you know. various predicaments? So I do onetoone coaching. So right now. everything's done digitally but. essentially it's uh identifying what. aspect of your life right now is. critical for you to resolve. and then helping you with the psychology. and the mindset to be able to. work through that or work with that. So. it could be emotional resilience, it.

could be sustainable weight loss, it. could be relationships, it could be. taking your business to the next level. in terms of how you view yourself as an. entrepreneur. Um. it might be fears, loss of intimacy, uh. imposttor syndrome, whatever issue is. actually there for you. I'll check if it's something that we can. approach from a mindset point of view. and that's where my expertise is and. then help you on your journey as you.

then have a more empowered mindset so. that you're developing that robust sense. of self and you're able to. change and adapt and be fluid in your. journey and keep on growing essentially. We have um we have such good. conversations even off the podcast. We. we we met up I think last week or the. week before and had just an open. conversation about a bunch of things in. life. So, I actually wanted to ask you, I've never asked a guest this before, but is there anything that we've missed. in terms of the topics that you think. are curious to the relationship we have.

or pertinent to the relationship we have. or um any sort of learnings that. you've garnered from our conversations. that you think we should be sharing with. people? because I feel somewhat I feel. those conversations are so rich. that I I I you know we talked about so. much last time and um even in our. private conversations I just I just. wonder if there's anything else any sort. of key topics that you. I'm sure there will be like I don't. think we've exhausted our conversation.

we'll be back for a third episode listen. thank you so much for your time I. appreciate it I I yeah I appreciate it. so so much more than I've you know. people they give up so much time and. they fly to come and do the podcast but. um the what you've given in today. I. don't think you'll realize how selfless. um that act was because of the value it. will give to people. And this is exactly. why I do this podcast um to hear these. kinds of things and to to to hopefully. make myself better and the listeners. better for hearing it. So, thank you a. million million times over. Thank you, Steve. Thank you.

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