Sex Expert (Esther Perel): The Relationship Crisis No One Talks About That's Killing Your Sex Life!

So, I messaged my closest friends. Can. you tell me what question you have that. you wouldn't ever say out loud? Give me. a few. How can I be satisfied with just. one sexual partner? I have my partner. Should I tell them? I no longer find my. partner attractive, but I don't know how. to tell her. We have a lot to talk. about. You going to record me today? Okay. All right. Here's what I would. suggest. Esther PL is regarded as one of. the most sought after relationship. therapists in the world. For the past 40. years, she's been helping millions of.

people with her brutally honest and. wildly relatable insights. People are. having less sex. Why is the sex getting. less interesting? No, their life with. each other is less interesting. And what. concerns me at this moment, it's the. loss of social skills, but they are. vital to us. And we have less and less. opportunities to practice because we are. pursuing connection beyond the human. world. People don't have partner sex, they have sex on porn. We also are. surrounded by algorithmic perfections. and that's creating warped expectations.

that we bring to our relationships and. then there's the misery of the dating. app. Have you heard this story of the. guy who swiped 2 million times to get. one date? Oh god. It appears that you. have many options but you'll swipe swipe. swipe and you're going to get frustrated. because you don't get matched with. anybody. But don't make the app become. the replacement where you can actually. go outside, meet people, and also deal. with rejection because it's a major. feature to develop relationships. But.

we've never been more free, but we've. never been more alone and more filled. with self-doubt. So, tell me how to fix. it in order to have a great. relationship. There's a ton of really. important things. The first thing this. This has always blown my mind a little. bit. 53% of you that listen to the show. regularly haven't yet subscribed to the. show. So, could I ask you for a favor. before we start? If you like the show. and you like what we do here and you. want to support us, the free simple way. that you can do just that is by hitting. the subscribe button. And my commitment. to you is if you do that, then I'll do.

everything in my power, me and my team, to make sure that this show is better. for you every single week. We'll listen. to your feedback. We'll find the guests. that you want me to speak to and we'll. continue to do what we do. Thank you so. much. [Music]. Esther, with all that you know and with. all that you study and with all that you. research and write about and think. about, what is it that concerns you most? What. is front of mind for you when you think. about mating and dating and human. connection? What concerns me most.

I think is the fact that uh there is a. unique moment in history at this moment. where we are redesigning our. communication our way ways of connecting. our ways of answering the big questions. but specifically in the realm of. relationships it's social atrophy I. think we are losing social skills and. the word atrophy for anyone that doesn't. know is atrophy is when you don't use.

muscles they go numb. Social atrophy is. when you no longer know how to speak to. people. And what is the cost of that? If. we do lose that social ability to to. connect and to have happen stance, what. price do we pay? Why does life get. harder? And how does it get harder? Because we are social creatures. We are. wired for connection. If we we live longer because we are. connected. We don't live longer because. we are master biohackers.

We need those connections. They are just. literally vital to us. So, um it's not. that we have replaced this, you know, and and our skills are still honed in. We don't we have less and less. opportunities to practice. If you do sports and you don't practice. your sport, you wouldn't be asking me. what is the price. You would know that. if you don't play and it's been years of. not playing, then that thing is out of. your life. Done. But you can do other.

things, whereas you can't live without. connection. So many people are really. dissatisfied with the choices they have. for connection. Now, I'm sure we're all. to blame, but when I when I scroll. through my my feed on social media, one. of the things I've seen lately, I saw it. just before you arrived and also a. couple of days ago, was people so angry. at dating apps. Mhm. And I've got. friends close to me who are furious that. their only apparent option to meet. someone these days. Go outside, go walk.

your dog, go run, go with a bike group, go to a go do life and you will meet. people. I mean, you create situations. It's not, you know, where are the. available situations? Where are the the. options for meeting people? You create. options. You know, you're at a you're at. a coffee shop, you're ordering a coffee, ask the person next to you if you can. offer them one. Can do something that. actually invites relatedness. And I know the anger at the app. I get.

that, you know. I I'm actually quite. connected to to to this whole world of. dating apps. But I think that it's a. tool. Use it but don't make it become. the replacement for the multitudes of. situations. Yesterday I sat on a plane. I spoke for. 3 hours with two people just because. there was no Wi-Fi. It was just an amazing conversation and. and all of us at the moment we landed.

said to each other, "Wow, if we had had. Wi-Fi, we wouldn't have talked to each. other one bit or five minutes and then. be done with this." It's all these. situations that we don't take advantage. of. We used where we used to always talk. to people. And I think if you just rely. on the app, you will go through a loop. You'll go on it. You'll swipe, swipe, swipe. You'll respond with the least.

amount of effort possible because you've. so burned out already from doing this. that you don't really want to give much. of yourself. If you don't give much of. yourself, you're not going to get the. kind of responses that you want. Then. you're going to get frustrated because. you don't get matched with anybody. But. you don't look at your own laziness that. is not particularly invited for someone. to actually want to match with you. And. then you say now I'm tired of this. So. now you get off the app for 6 months. You take a break. You say I'm done with. the apps. And then six months later you. say I don't want to meet someone. And. what do you do? You go back on the app.

instead of thinking of the multitudes of. situations where you can actually meet. people. And it's become so weird to talk. to somebody. you know, you can sit next. to someone and at the at the counter and. it's like you're a weirdo if you start. talking to me instead of, you know, why. not? Cuz even in the situation of your. plane ride, if there had been Wi-Fi, those people wouldn't have wanted to. talk to you. So really, regardless of. your attempt, you would have been met. with, you know, rejection to some.

degree, social rejection. Maybe, maybe. But you know, the original. app, if you really want to understand. the gamification of that, it was really. done as a way to not have to put. yourself out and have to deal with. rejection. But do you rejection is a. major feature of relationships. Learning. to live with people who say no to us. is essential. Have you heard this story. of the guy who tracked his Tinder.

swipes? And the story is that he swiped. two million times to get one date. And. you can kind of see this is him here. This is the image of the of the swipe. So it says this guy swiped 2 million. 58,000 times. He got 2,000 matches from. that. Mhm. Which turned into 1,200 chats. which turned into one date. Such a system is failing a huge. percentage of people. This is the chap.

on WhatsApp on Tinder, I believe it was. This is Here he is. I'll put him on the. screen so everyone can see. Mhm. And you. can kind of see the the photos that he. he led with on his dating profile. He. probably shouldn't be holding a massive. fish. I'm not sure many women are into. that, but Oh, he's got the fish picture. Yes. Yes. For people like him, what's. the honest advice that someone like him. needs? Because you know clearly dating. apps aren't going to work for him which. is a lot of us from what I read. But how. many hours he should also have put on. the amount of hours that he Oh it does.

have that. So has the hours too. So has. the amount of time he's been a member of. the apps just over five years almost six. years. Yes. I mean the first thing if if. you sat in my office and you told me. this I would not spend my time. discussing what you're doing on the app. I would discuss what you're doing off. the app. And if you ever are even off. the app, I mean, have you the amount of hours of. swiping that you've done, obviously this. is not yielding anything. Why are you. continuing? 5 years is an enormous.

amount of time in your life. I feel sad. for you. You know, have you tried any. other ways? Have you have you been with. with your friends? Do you have friends? Have your friends introduced you to. people? Have you gone to places where. you are more likely to meet people? I. don't know what you're interested in, but if your fishing is one of those. things, you know, maybe even at the fish. market you could meet, but I mean more. of it isn't going to give you more of. it. It's just going to make you more. frustrated. So, if you were sat there,

there's a rigidity to this. It's like, what are you trying to prove? You know, go try something else. If you're trying. to park in a space that you can't get. in, at some point, don't you go look for. another space? Is there an element of. this where, you know, from what I heard. from dating apps, there's only a small. percentage of men that could basically. get all the opportunity if I I'll put. the numbers on the screen, but yeah, I. know the holes. Yes. And a large. proportion of women get lots of. opportunity because lots of men swipe.

for But opportunity for what to be. swiped does that mean? There's and then. what the main thing is can we have a. conversation about emotional capitalism. you know I go I try I I I try to get the. best I try to shop you know I try to to. maximize my chances but fundamentally. the app originally was broadening your. circle. It gave you the opportunity to. meet people that you would otherwise not. meet. There was something very beautiful.

about that. From that it became a. commodification. People treat each other. like [ __ ] People ghost each other left. and right. People tell each other things. and then disappear. People don't have to. say, "I'm not interested in seeing you. again." They just close the shop. And. the misery is not because they haven't. met someone. The misery is the treatment. that this kind of semi anonymity enables. you. You don't have to be polite. anymore. You don't have to treat people.

with minimum decency. And that's what hurts people. That that. makes people bitter, angry, doubting. themselves. A lot of things like that. It's part of the challenge that I have. so many apparent options. Now, as. someone on these dating apps, it's kind. of like going to a when you go to like. Asia or Thailand and you get the menu. and the menu is so big, they'll like. make anything you want. So, you find it. hard to choose. And also any choice you. make, you realize that it's come at the. cost of so many other things you could. have had. So it's less special, it's.

less scarce. And in a world of Instagram. and dating apps, it appears that I have. 100,000 options. Yes, it appears that. you have many options. And it appears. that you have a paradox of choice. And. it appears that you constantly are. dealing with the FOMO of what else is. around the corner. But the interesting. thing is when I work with people, I. spend a lot of time reading reading what. they actually post. Even a peacock is. more creative than us, you know, in how. they attract people, in what you say, in. what, hey, what's up?

want to hang. Is that giving you any energy in your. body? Okay. I mean, this is half the the. messages. I'm watching. I'm chilling. Okay. Well, keep chilling. It's like where is the. energy? Where, you know, there's. something about called flirting, attracting someone, showing an interest, etc., etc., etc. What's a better thing. for us to say? Oh, man. You know, show. interest. I saw something in your.

picture. Uh, I'm wondering, you know, if. we went to listen to music, what's the. first band we would go to listen to? Something that says you are a person. with life, with interest, with. curiosity. Show curiosity. It's probably. the first thing that you do when you are. drawn to somebody. I guess if I've been. rejected so much, as you said, I've been. kind of demoralized. The energy has been. taken out of me. So now it's just become. this sort of cycle of just well then. don't do it then go then do something. else for a while. Don't stay in that. pattern. It's it's it's really.

depleting. But the thing about the. choice is that we also are living. surrounded by algorithmic perfections. and predictive technologies that are. trying to deliver us always, you know, on demand delivery of our everyday life. always on without any friction and that. is creating warped expectations that we. bring to our relationships. That very. same expectation for perfection and. forcopantic. responses, you know. So the more we are.

interacting with AIS and the more we are. re receiving a different kind of. response, the more challenging it will. be for us to actually deal with real. people and and to face what you call. rejection. Not every refusal is a. rejection. I mean this guy didn't write. how many times he wasn't interested. He. only tells you what's happening to him. He gives you the victim story. It's a. statement of this thing doesn't work for.

me and men don't get answered on the app. and you get this whole plight but. there's no context. I can't give you a. and I don't think anybody should. actually respond to this without knowing. all these other details. Is there an. issue when you mentioned men there is. there an issue that gender roles have. shifted and when we think about the. plight of men they are you know this I. think the single biggest killer of men. over the age of 45 is themselves and the. gender roles um have shifted so much.

that often men have less purpose. feelings of purpose and worth now than. they used to have. Women and men have. got gotten closer to a point of. financial equality. they've gotten. closer um than the past which now kind. of also means that the role of a man if. we think historically is less clear than. the role of a man maybe 50 100 years. ago. To understand masculinity you have. to understand the broader spectrum of. relationships. So relationships used to be about duty.

and obligation, loyalty and community. And happiness came not from what you do. for yourself, but happiness came from. having fulfilled your role and your. mission and your obligation to the. people that you owe to your family. primarily. That model is still the. prevailing model in most parts of the. world. We shifted that model from duty. and obligation to option and choice. And. so now we have zero clarity and a lot of. freedom. And we've never been more free, but we've never been more alone and more.

confused and more filled with. self-doubt. How how long have you been. working with. men and women in a relationship love. connection? 40 years. So what have you. seen change in the conversation around. men and masculinity? Like what are the. different problems that men are talking. about in when they speak to you that. they weren't speaking about when you. started your career? I mean you can. start with the subject of loneliness. Loneliness, which is a a a general.

societal issue at this point, is. definitely a major affliction, even more. so for boys and men. Okay? Loneliness. was not a the story of men in the 19th. century. Men hunted together, men hiked. together, men gathered together, men. went to the bar together. Men had. conversations with other men. Men meant. met, you know. So the there is nothing. inherent about men that sets them up for. more loneliness and isolation.

That is really important to understand. Men, boys till the age of four and then. till the age of seven are highly. emotional. They can articulate. They can. so these are cultural phenomenons. These. are social developments. This is not. biological. This is not intrinsic to. men. One shift that's taken place which. I'm keen to get your perspective on is. relates to sex. One in three men under.

30 in the US reported no sex in the past. year. That's triple the rate from 2008. Millennials and Gen Z's are having less. sex than any generation since records. began despite more access to the dating. apps we talked about. Yeah. In Japan. over 40% of young adults are virgins and. they say many say that they have no. interest in sex. Mhm. And lastly, married couples in the UK and the United. States report a steady decline in sexual. frequency since the early 2000s. Yeah, I. wrote about that in Mating in Captivity. that came out in 2006. That's 20 years.

ago. Yes. Because in order to have sex. with a female partner, if that's the man. you're talking about, you need to be. able to approach her. And so social. atrophy is directly connected to what is. often called the sexual recession. I mean I in in mating 20 years ago I. have an entire chapter where someone. basically says to me I'd rather have the. security of an MBA than of a. relationship. Okay. And at that point already you. began to see that adolescence in the.

United States it's not everywhere in the. world but certainly in the US and where. more and more going in groups and having. less and less pair bonding and less and. less romantic relationships that. accompany you through your adolescence. that develop with you and you basically. develop sex as part of a plot and not as. something that at some point your. hormones force you to do. But a story, a. story, a relationship is a story. And. then at suddenly you arrive at a certain.

age and now you're looking at this other. person with whom you want to have sex. and it's like this unknown continent. that you have to conquer. But but you've. never spoken with those people. You have. very little female friends who are just. friends who help you understand what. happens with your girlfriend. You know, there's an entire social map that has. dissipated. So the sex is the last thing. on the list of all these disconnects. that then of course lead you to have. this kind of statistic and that means.

with partners they have plenty of sex. maybe with themselves and others other. other. but it's partnered sex here that is that. is involved right they have sex on porn. they have sex. they don't have partner sex you know do. you understand when I say to you this is. a you can add that to your statistics. too that the majority of men who come to. sex therapy today for erectile. dysfunctions are young men in their 20s, not old men after prostate issues.

Really? Yes. Why? Because they spend an. enormous amount of time with themselves. watching porn and masturbating. Yes. Because in order to be able to maintain. erections with a partner, it's an it's. an it's an attunement, right? It's a. resonance. It's grooving together. But. if you've always just been by yourself, then you only know how to kind of be. connected to your own physiological. responses. I've worried about this.

before. I've worried that if I watch. pornography that I will like desensitize. myself to the real thing. Depends how. much, depends if what else is there in. your life. I mean, it's not an all or. nothing thing. But what I'm saying is. social atrophy. The the the gradual. disconnect of the multiple touch points. between people leads to then the. challenges that are also sexual leads to. the kind of social isolation leads to.

people confusing friends and friendship. So they can have a thousand virtual. friends but no one to feed their cat. You know it's it's it's all para no one. to feed their cat. Yeah. Who would pick. up a prescription at the pharmacy? who. may pick me up at the airport, who will go check on on someone I care. about if I happen to not be there. Yes. Who shows up for me? Because it's. foundational to trust. Who can I lean. on? Do you have my back? Can I rely on. you?

So do you think the partnered sex is in. decline because because they're still. having sex but they're doing it on their. own now with in part sex is in decline. because social connection is in decline. because people have less friends because. people the statistics on who you call to. when you are in trouble are really. terrible. People have no one to confide. in. So what how does that impact my sex. with my partner? Well, you you won't. have a partner usually. What this. statistic says is that there is no.

partner. Young men the age of 30 don't. have sex with partners. This one here. from the British Medical Journal says. that married couples in the UK and US. report a steady decline in sexual. frequency. Yes. Since basically the. internet. Yeah. So here's how this. works. How much time do you spend in. front of a screen during the day? Nine. hours. All right. And then you sometimes. think now I'm going to go home and I'm. finally can close the screens. Yeah. But. then you're so tired that all you can do. is watch TV. Yeah. And then while you.

watch TV, you're also scrolling on your. phone. Yeah. And then while you're. watching TV and scrolling on your phone, there may be somebody sitting next to. you that does the exact same thing. Yeah. All right. And then somebody may. even say something to the other person. who goes, "Uh-huh.". Doesn't look at them. Uh-huh. Very interesting. And you really wonder. why people are having less sex. It is. It's hard. It's hard. I'm going. to say it is hard. Right. So, people are. experiencing at that moment what I've.

come to call ambiguous loss. Ambiguous loss is when I'm actually with. somebody, but I don't feel the. closeness, the intimacy, the connection. from actually being with that person. I. don't know if you're here or not here. Ambiguous loss is actually a term that. was developed by Pauline Bos, a. psychologist who talked about it when. you have a person who has Alzheimer or. dementia and they are actually.

physically in front of you but they are. emotionally or psychologically gone or. people who are deployed or have. disappeared or miscarriage where people. are no longer physically there but they. are emotionally very very present inside. of you. In both cases you don't know are. they here or are they not. Do I say. goodbye or do I hold on? When I am doing. this looking at your phone and I have. like the a still face and I'm barely. responding to you who said something.

that may be quite important. You don't. know are you here but you're not. present. I'm with you, but I'm not experiencing. any of the things that one experiences. from the closeness of being with you, like Alzheimer, dementia, physically. there, but psychologically elsewhere. Because it's not just that you're not. here, it's that you're in another world. You're gone somewhere. You may be. talking to who knows. And I guess this is the from reading. your work, this is the crux of many an.

argument. The argument might sound like, oh, you didn't put the toilet seat down, but it's actually linked to. something else, something deeper under. the surface. I I just see it, you know, specifically. when me and my partner have been away. from each other for a long time and then. we come back together. I always know. we're going to argue for the first like. one or two days. It's not even going to. be an argument. It's going to be. there's going to be a problem. And the. problem is usually around expectations, which is I come in and my head is still.

d like I'm still a million miles away, maybe on a different frequency, thinking. about lots of things. And I think she. comes into that space expecting. connection and I let her down. And we've. tried to like call it out and say, "Listen, when we come back together, let's just, you know, both make an. effort in that direction." But, um, going back to your point of ambiguous. loss, it's like it's almost like she's. trying to test if I'm. connected to her. And I sometimes don't. do a good job of that because of how I. come into that space. Like for example,

right now I'm filming Dragon STEM, which. is a TV show in Manchester. And so I. film three or four days a week, morning. till night. The minute I get off from. it, I'm back with her. So you can. imagine everything hits me at once. Do you what I'm saying? Yes. Like all of. my team, all the to-do list, everything. Steve, we need you to sign this off all. at once, but then I'm back in front of. her. Mhm. So she's experiencing that. ambiguous loss. And the expectation was. that we haven't seen each other for a. while. So this is, you know, so the.

question is, can you carve out a half an. hour that's clean? An hour that's clean. that connects. Yeah. But don't do that. just for her. You have to imagine that. when you do what you do and it all is. bleeding into each other and all your. roles collapse into the same space that. it actually is doing something for you. to you, not for you, to you. And that to. to actually close the phone,

tell people to call you in an hour, you. won't miss a thing. And to actually drop. in. is going to give you a level of energy, of oxytocin, of well-being that is way. more important or as important as every. supplement you may be swallowing. Yeah. Cuz you're It's true. I think it's. not just for her. Yeah, I am excited to. see her and I am excited to connect in. here. I just You said it wrong. You said. it correctly. Like I just multi I try.

and multitask and I I let everything. down. Yes. The boss, the podcaster, the. this, the that and the boyfriend is all. in the same thing. Um it's an. indigestion. So you're a fan of. scheduling clean time to do things. Oh. yeah. Oh yeah. It's you can call it. scheduling, you can call it demarcation, you can call it delineation. We are. social creatures who really orient. ourselves in time and in space. When. everything happens to us at the same. time, we get headaches. They not always.

experienced as headaches, but in fact, we get a confusion inside. We're not. here, we're not here, we're not here, we're not here, it's just okay. So, you. can call that scheduling or you can call. it that, you know, when you go to place. when you go to the gym, you basically. put on certain clothes, you prepare. yourself for that. It's an activity that. comes with a role that comes with a set. of things that comes with a delineation. of time that makes you go to a certain. space. where you're going to go do that thing. and we this happens when you go out at.

night this when you go out for dinner. when you the same thing is for home. It's a if you are going to spend the. moment with her, however short it is, if. it's clean and present, not just kind of. semi there, ambiguously present, it will. change a lot of things for you, for her, and for the two of you. Before we sat. down today, I messaged a group of 10 of. my closest friends. I put them all in a. group chat, and I told them I was going.

to be speaking to you today. So I said. to them, "Can you tell me what question. you have for Esther Pel?" These are all. my 10 of my best friends that you. wouldn't ever say out loud. How can I be. satisfied with just one sexual partner? I have been unfaithful with my partner. in the past. and I feel guilty about it. Should I. tell them? I no longer find my partner attractive, but I don't know how to tell her. I love.

her but I don't find her attractive. Those are probably the most interesting. ones. I think the one that I would probably uh. address is also uh about the infidelity. and about your guilt. That's that and. also to this person read state of. affairs because I spent many years. writing this book about infidelity and. trying to offer a very nuanced. perspective on this very subject. But.

here's the thing. to tell somebody something just because. you don't have a clean conscience and. you feel guilty isn't always the kind. thing to do. Ask yourself what will happen to your. partner or to your relationship for that. matter if you speak about this now. and who you doing it for. I think. honesty sometimes is extremely caring. and at other times can be very cruel. It cleanses you and it destroys another.

person. deal with your responsibility and deal. with your guilt and face the. consequences of your behavior and treat. your partner with all the good things. that actually say I now am willing to. really invest in here and and make up. for what I did without having to destroy. the narrative of the relationship. because everybody has a story about. their relationship. Everybody has a set. of shared assumptions about their.

relationship. And you are going to come. in and just say, "Last year or two years. ago or five years ago, I did X, Y, and. Z." And from that moment on, you rob the. other person of their narrative. You may think you did something that was. honest, and sometimes that is the case. But many times you actually create an. enormous amount of hurt. If you feel. guilty, it's not bad. Deal with your. guilt. Face it. Take your responsibility.

and make your relationship the best. relationship you can. And honor your. partner in that way. Don't honor them by. putting your dirt onto them. That is a. different way of saying and that is not. for everyone. But I think that it is an. important perspective to include here. because we live in this era where. transparency supposedly is the the best. model for everything. And people dish. stuff out on other people that destroys. them.

in the name of and when you're no longer. attracted to your person, you know, ask. yourself what is that about? You know, is it are you paying attention? are you? Um I think people often just think that. attraction is something like I look at. you and I should just instantly have a. response, you know. Um and sometimes it's also. because I haven't really taken a good. look and sometimes it's because what I'm.

looking at isn't necessarily anymore. what draws me in. And sometime it's it's. not, you know, attraction is a very fle. fluid thing. It comes and go. When I'm. angry at you, I'm not nearly as. attracted to you as when I'm looking at. you being so kind to someone and I say, "What a great person you are and I just. want to come and and I run over and I. want to hug you and I want to hold you.". That's attraction, too, right? We're not. just talking about the attraction to. have sex with somebody. Attraction is is. in a in a is part of a story. It's part. of a context. You know, if you think.

that you're just going to watch Netflix. for three hours, scroll on your phone. for another two, and then turn around. and say, "Oh, you're so attractive and. I'm so turned on by you." We you're. you're off. You're off. This is not the. way that it works. And then it's easy to. replace the person and to just think. you're, you know, new shiny object. We. will be very attracted again. But. attraction is a part of an interaction. that these two words have the have the. same ethmological root if there is zero.

interaction. Now if you have a partner. who neglects themselves, a partner who. you know there's lots of things that. people also do that diminishes them. There was a woman in a in in a. an event I just did and you know there. had been some hurt in the relationship. and so she said I'm no longer attracted. which is not the same as I have no. desire. Basically she had no desire. and she said but I've worked we've.

talked everything out. We've discussed. it. I said yeah you may have discussed. it but your body shut down. Your body. carries the anger. Your body carries the. hurt. Your body carries the feelings. and your body doesn't want to open. So. obviously it's not over, you know. So that's too is attraction. It is one of the most popular things. that men whisper to me in silence, which. is they can't seem to get their and. listen, I'm saying men because my the. majority of my good friends that would. whisper to me are men. So it might be.

the case for women too. I just can't. speak to that. is that they are unsure. how they could possibly be faithful for. a prolonged period of time. um and have one partner for a prolonged. period of time. I think that you would. be an interesting thing to tell your men. friends. Women get bored with monogamy much. sooner than men. Really? Yes. That's not what men think. No. men think she's not interested in. sex.

and what they should probably replace it. with is that she's not interested in the. sex she's can she's going to have. in order to want sex it needs to be sex. that is worth wanting. for women to remain interested it needs. to be interesting. and so the fact that women don't. necessarily experience the same. liberties at least historically and. culturally all over the world that men. do. So they remain in their homes and.

they are not as unfaithful because. there's been a double standard around. infidelity forever everywhere in the. world. For this particular friend of. mine, where is that message? What what. should I say to him when he says, "How. can you be satisfied with one sexual. partner?" That's literally just so you. know that I'm not just I believe you. But some people at home might think that. it's like me as a proxy of um but but. maybe you're not. Maybe you're not. Maybe you want to have more partners.

Maybe you want your partner to have. other partners, too. That's not always. so the case, right? He doesn't want to. lose her. That's right. They've been. together I think 25 years. So, you know, it won't you may have sometimes. frustrations if you there's a few. options, right? You either say we have a. relationship that can welcome other. people. We're not exclusive. But she's. going to leave then. because she doesn't want that. Okay. So. then the next thing is as best as you.

can make it as interesting and as fun. and as pleasurable as it can be. And my. first question to you is have you been. doing the same old for god knows how. many years? And with that in mind I. wouldn't be surprised that you're not. that attracted or that she's not that. interested for that matter. So if you want to be satisfied or more. satisfied, I mean you have a dialogue you know and. the more satisfied means. bring more of yourself and and and make.

this experience more erotic, more. pleasurable, more playful, more. fulfilling. You may remain frustrated and you may. say I would love to have other people. and for that matter maybe your partner. wants would would want it too but that's. not the kind of relationship that she. wants. That doesn't mean she hasn't. thought about other people and it. certainly wouldn't mean that if she. fantasizes she fantasizes about you. So. everybody is keeping their secrets here. you know. Um, and then the next thing.

is, are you putting more emphasis on the. fact that you're not as satisfied having. one sexual partner, or are you putting. more focus on the fact that you're going. to make this sexual experience with your. partner as pleasurable and rich as can. be? If you find yourself more on the. complaining side, then you're going to. be constantly more unsatis dissatisfied. I think much of it is actually he and. many others want the best of all worlds. And in life, we're not willing to accept. trade-offs. Yeah. So, and you're saying.

you're saying make a decision. If you. want that life, then be honest about. that life. If you don't want that life, then. invest in that thing to make it better. Yeah. That's the other alternative. Be. bored with the food you eat. Go buy. other food and and and and cook at home. and make it more rich and more. interesting. If you don't want to have. the same dinner every night in the. house, the question is what are people. doing to make their relationships more. vibrant, more erotic, more alive? I mean. this is really you by the way it's not. about having more sex. You can have more.

sex and and not feel much. It's about. making it more alive and vibrant. That. is what much of my work is about is. cultivating the eroticism and the. aliveness in relationships. on the on the personal front. And you. ask people what do you do to make it. rich and interesting and and you find. the laziness, the complacency, the. constant same old same old and then the. complaint about it and then you say that. is that is really self-defeating. Are.

you frustrated with people as No, I. smile at it. I I I I just I I smile at. the the way that we can lie to. ourselves. I smile at the way we can complain about. others and as if that we have no. implication. I smile at the way we don't. want to take responsibility for actually. getting the things that we really want. You must see the same patterns over and. over again. those ones I do not all but. this kind of pattern which is actually.

why I've expanded to from only working. in the romantic sphere to working also. in the workplace because relationships. are richer than just this and I think. that this friend I would have a five. minute conversation with him and I would. ask him these very questions. I would ask the partner also those very. questions. and I would have a few ideas. It's not.

uber complicated. You going to record me. to him? No, I'm just Okay. What would you say to him? What's his. name? I I should call it name. Let's. call him John. John. So, yes, John. It's we are we are not. necessarily uh curious only about one. partner. Many people would like to have. other partners. in the context of your. relationship that is not an option for. you as I understand. So if that is the.

situation and you really deeply care. about your partner and your relationship. with her, then the next question is. what do you do to energize your. relationship to bring playfulness, curiosity, imagination, eroticism as in life force, as in. aliveness, not as in sex to your. relationship? Are you bringing the. leftovers home and the best of yourself. goes to work or are you also bringing.

your creativity, your energy, your. curiosity to your relationship? My sense. is that if you do that, there is a good. chance that you will actually have a. more satisfying erotic connection with. your partner. That doesn't mean you. won't have interest, curiosity, fantasies about others, but it will free. you from this position in which you just. kind of say, "I'm bored. I'm not. satisfied. I would like a little more. diversity." And all of that. And just.

for you, do not imagine that you're the. only one in your relationship who thinks. this way and wants this. It's just that. you may have a partner who doesn't want. the consequences of it. That doesn't. mean she wouldn't fantasize about the. plurality herself. I'm going to send that. Um, please. listen. to the ad hoc intervention. Yeah. Just need a honest response. Have.

you ever done that. on your podcast? And Pel said, "Women. are often more quickly bored with. monogamy than men." And that is the. secret that people do not understand. That means that in order for her to. remain engaged, it has to remain more. engaging and interesting and fun and. pleasurable. And if it's just to get it. done and just to do it for the sake of. doing it, then she really can often.

spare it. And while men are much more. able to remain actually contrary to what. he describes to remain interested that. doesn't mean they don't want others as. well but they can remain more interested. in their partner without having to. change it like that. And it is. interpreted as women are less interested. in sex rather than women need more in. order to remain interested. They need. more of the emotional stuff. Not. necessarily. Not only they need more.

imagination, more risque, more. connection, more attention, more of a. lot of whatever is hurt thing. Right. Okay. It's it's one of the the most. important things I learned actually that. that kind of turned it around for me. because once you begin to look at it. like that, it it plays with this classic. gender division. Men want, women. doesn't. It's boring. It's it's like it. becomes true just because we say it all. the time, but that doesn't mean it is. This is true for a lot of these gendered.

things. Um, so my friend replied and the. essence of what they said, yes, he said, "She's right. Full stop. The intimacy in. our relationship has died and it died so. long ago that I think part of me doesn't. feel like I can revive it anymore. We're. so used to the relationship being off.". Okay, put the put the mic on. Okay. Yep. All right, John, here's what I. would suggest. Um, I think that you can. just simply say I, you know, Steve.

approached me and asked me if I had a. question for Estelle and I just threw. out this thing. At first I was just kind. of flippant about it. I just thought. what do you do when you you know but in. fact when she answered I realized you. know that this is a bigger thing between. us and this is an emptiness and a gap. that we allowed to create and that I. have contributed to and I don't just. want to leave it at that. So I thought. I'm going to sit down and actually write. to you. I want to just write some of my.

thoughts because uh I think when we sit. we avoid the subject, we circle around. it or I avoid it or I'm defensive about. it or anyway whatever it is that I've. done. I don't know you enough, John, to. know the details of that. And then you. just really say, you know, something. died a long time ago and I feel awkward. about it, but I miss it and I miss you. and I miss us. And I would like to know. if you are willing to re-engage with me. and for us to rekindle. It's desire goes.

through intermittent eclipses. It's like. the moon. It disappears, but it can. reappear. And I would love to invite you. to re-engage with me to bring back the. light, the spark inside of us because we. can do it. We are more than just this. And because just living side by side, I. don't think is going to be enough for. either of us. And I'm prepared to do my. part. Would you be willing to do yours? That was beautiful.

That was beautiful. And then let's see. if it still answers us before we end. I made the biggest investment I've ever. made in a company because of my. girlfriend. I came home one night and my. lovely girlfriend was up at 1:00 a.m. in. the morning pulling her hair out as she. tried to piece together her own online. store for her business. And in that. moment, I remembered an email I'd had. from a guy called John, the founder of. Standstore, our new sponsor and a. company I've invested incredibly heavily.

in. And Standtore helps creators to sell. digital products, courses, coaching, and. memberships all through a simple. customizable link in bio system. And it. handles everything, payments, bookings, emails, community engagement, and even. links with Shopify. And I believe in it. so much that I'm going to launch a Stan. challenge. And as part of this. challenge, I'm going to give away. $100,000 to one of you. If you want to. take part in this challenge, if you want. to monetize the knowledge that you have, visit stephenbartlet.stan.

stan.store to sign up and you'll also. get an extended 30-day free trial of. Stan Store if you use that link. Your. next move could quite frankly change. everything. Are you hearing a lot of. couples in your practice increasingly. say either member of the couple that. they don't like having sex? Not more than before. I wrote a book 20. years ago that was all about the dilemas. of desire. You've always heard it. I. always heard it. No, I don't think that. there are fundamental changes around. that. I think the changes are the fact.

that people are spending less for time. together where they are actually. attentive to each other. They're half. there. Their attention is fragmented. They're multitasking all the time. The. that's what is changing. And if you have. less connection, less attention, less. intimacy, less in why do you think that. people are suddenly going to be turned. on? But is the sex getting less. interesting? No. Their life with each. other is less interesting.

And this the last time when I spoke to. you like this, you told me why you. shouting at me. Their life is less interesting. The sex. is the is the consequence of of seven. other things before. God, they haven't. said anything interesting to each other. They haven't laughed. They haven't. kissed each other. They haven't looked. at each other. They haven't barely. touched each other. And suddenly the. text the sex needs to be you know all. hot and and and and passionate on what. freaking basis.

Their life is not interesting. Their communication, their interaction, their conversations, their attention to. each other, the fact that they matter, the fact that their presence means. something in each other's lives, that's. what is all connected to long-term sex. Long-term sex doesn't come just for. because you I look at you and I'm and. I'm all hot. it it it's a different mechanism. So you're asking a question that happens. here and I am telling you if all of this.

is rather boring and uh unengaged. It's like at work you know I'm doing a. lot of this stuff around work now. It's. like if the engagement is low on what. basis do we think people are going to. perform? The performance is here, but the. performance is a response to the. engagement, which is a response to the. culture, which is a response to the. quality of the relationships between the. people who work together. It's the same. in the personal realm.

What element of responsibility do I have. in making sure that my relationship with. myself is great in order to have a great. relationship with someone else? Cuz a. lot of people like to blame. I think the. premise is inaccurate. Okay, fix my. premise. The premise is that it it's. time for us to begin to question the. intense level of individualism. and self. thinking, self-love, self-care, self-fululfillment, self-awareness. It's.

all about the self in front. And the. presumption is that if all those levels. of the self have been attended to, we. will be better able to attend to other. people. So, what do you think about this. culture of self-care and self-love? And. I think it's gone overboard. I think it's it's a distortion. I think it feeds consumerism. I think. that there's a lot of elements of it. that are highly important. But we have. completely lost the fact that what. actually is at the root of well-being,

happiness, longevity, meaning is in our. relationships and our connections with. others as well as with ourselves. When. you give to others, you will depressed. When you are when you feel like you make. a difference in other people's life, it. makes you feel better chemically too. If. you go on the street and you make some. you give compliments to people and you. tell them that they look really great or. this this beautiful what they're wearing. and you've made a smile on someone's. face, your oxytocin levels go up too.

Doing for others makes us feel better. about ourselves as well. Not all the. time and not every circumstance but that. voluntary connecting and and and being. engaged with other people whereas being. engaged with oneself. Have you seen at. the gym how people are super engaged. with themselves lifting and but nobody's. interacting with anybody. And many of these people go home and. there's nobody there. Huh? It's not like. they're doing this for someone that. that's waiting for them. Relating to.

yourself is not a goal in and of itself. It is a step to something, but it's not. in and of itself an achievement. The. goal is relating to others. The goal is is yes, is having meaningful. relationships, meaningful connections. with other people and other causes that. are beyond yourself. Part of why we are. so miserable and so unhappy and so is. because we are so constantly focused on. ourselves. There's a world, there's nature, there's.

politics, there's climate, there's. people, there's poverty, there is a ton. of things to be interested in. There's. art, there's creativity, there's a lot. of things that are beyond us that is. beyond maximizing and optimizing and. hacking and focusing on myself and naval. gazing. And I am a therapist and I work with. individuals who I am helping to have a. better relationship with themselves and. deal with what stands in the way to. relate to others not what stands in the.

way to feel good about me period. With. gender roles reversing, have you seen. men get increasingly emasculated by the. success of women in your practice? And. have you seen also the woman get sort of. frustrated with the man because he's now. not the bread winner? There was this. stat I saw that said again rough numbers. 70% of women expect the man to be the. bread bread winner. But then there's. this bigger social narrative that. actually no 50/50 or you know equality. is the case. Um and I was sat here with.

a guy who runs runs the men and boys. clinic. I think it's called the men and. boys institute or something. Richard. Reeves. Mhm. and Richard Reeves was a. stay-at-home dad and then his partner, you know, and doing all of this work. about men in equality that, you know, a. self-proclaimed feminist, I believe, and. then his wife turned around to him one. day and was like, you know, and I've heard this quite a. lot. I've heard from my successful. female friends that part of the reason.

they think they can't find a man is that. men feel emasculated by their success. And on the counterpoint, I'm wondering. if it goes the other way. Can I take. this a little differently? Sure, please. Whatever. Emasculation is a word that. doesn't exist in the feminine. It's always been a masculine concern. Which is part of why I said to you that. masculinity is an identity that. constantly has to prove itself. Mhm. If. it was so solid, it wouldn't have to.

constantly have to show you that it. really is serious and it's it's the real. thing. There is, you know, those things. do not translate on the feminine side. The word loser doesn't exist in the. feminine either. And this is historical. This is not new. That men have had the challenge with. powerful women is not new. that women. have wanted men to be both powerful and. nurturing is not new. That fathers have.

often been as tender toward their I. think that there's a the for me the the. the engagement with some of your. question is that it plays into a whole. discourse about men and women that at. this point somehow puts them completely. apart. each one kind of more and more angry at. the other side. And I don't really want. to participate in that. The women are. talking about the useless this and the. men are talking about the [ __ ] that. and I don't find that helpful. People I.

don't think it's true. I think there are fathers and men all. over the world doing everything they can. to save their family, their wives, their. you know it has nothing to do just with. how much they earn. The world is filled. with people who want to give a better. life to their family and to their. children. Men who work day and night in. order to provide. And I think that to. turn this conversation into that section.

that in that we are referring to is. true. It exists but it is not a fair. rendering of men, of masculinity, of. fathers, of brothers, of husbands. and of wives. um that there is a group of women who. are out earning the men. Yes, women have. out earned men for a long time in all. kinds of industries, not just at the. higher levels. Um that men have stay. have not been home as primary parents. I.

think gay couples have shown us a whole. new range. It's like it's time to kind. of move on a little bit. Do you know. when you say that we need to know how to. relate to each other? And I think you. said that it starts with being aware of. ourselves. Is that roughly what you said that it. starts with having a sort of a. self-awareness of yourself? I think that. the it's a constant combination because. what I'm saying is that in order to have. self-awareness, you need to understand. your connection with others. Your.

self-awareness is not developed here. alone by myself. You get to know. yourself through your relationships with. people. It is in the presence of another. that we discover ourselves. And this is. in part why I'm asking these questions. because I think for a lot of men, we've. understood who we are by how we relate. and the role we play for others. historically. So like I kind of. understand much of who I am when you see. me with my partner. Yeah. Because I will. grab the door. I will grab the bags. I. will help solve problems in a more.

logical like I'm a very like tell me how. to fix it. And you understand the I. understand myself by being how I relate. to her. taking care of her is part of my. identity to me. So in in such a world, I. think the question becomes like what is. it to be what is it to be a man? And if. I don't know what that is, I find it. harder to relate to others. One of the. things I love to do, but that's not on a. societal level. That's me in my work. when I do retreats, relationship.

retreats like we have one that I'm going. to do in in October in Greece and and I. have I do fishbowls and I put all the. men in a fishbowl or all those who. identify as men for that matter and I. have the women just listen the people. around. and for an hour they or more or two they. talk about everything you just brought. up their challenges, their frustrations, their hopes, their aspirations, their. loss. loses their self-doubt, their.

shame, their shadows, and people listen without judgment, without opinions, just receive the the. gift of having somebody be willing to. expose themselves like that. It's. extremely moving. It's very beautiful. and you learn a ton. And you learn how. much of your projections are, you know, standing in the way. how much you you. you make assumptions without really. knowing how hard it is to truly listen.

That's when it becomes to me beautiful, worthwhile and and things change. Things. become softer and people start to weep. in front of total strangers and you. realize humanity is bigger than gender. Gender is important, super important, but there is another layer that is just. our humanity. And at this moment in our. society where there's tons of. uncertainties that connecting on the. human level to me supersedes some of.

these gender wars. There's lots of it. I. don't and and I leave it to others to. comment on that. But my work is to. create alternative conversations, better. conversations. Are you hopeful? Honestly, in those moments I'm very. hopeful. But are you hopeful when they. leave the retreat and they go back onto. the algorithms? I hope that some of them. will do that and some of them will. actually experience a profound change. you know but in the moment I feel like I.

can do something I'm hopeful when I can. do something when I can contribute when. I can create something that's really. special that's you know I'm not hopeful. when I'm helpless when I'm passive so in. those moments I am hopeful because. something really beautiful is happening. you know when people connect at a deeper. level it is very very meaningful be it. at work or be it at home I mean it it's. anywhere at this point where I can.

create these connections people I mean. it's sentence that I take with me all. over the all the time it's the quality. of your relationships will determine the. quality of your lives and my work is. about helping you have better. relationships be more confident be more. connected I I I can analyze a lot of. these statistics but I don't know what. to do with it. Be more confident. Yes. What is confidence in that regard? Confidence is when you are able to see.

yourself as a flawed person and still. hold yourself in high regard. That's from my friend Terry Real. But it. is a great definition of confidence. It's not when I when I know when I'm. sure. It's none of that. It's actually. when I see myself as flawed. but I still hold myself in high regard. that means I'm confident. And is there. is there work one can do to get to such. a place? Yes, of course. Work and life.

experience and maturity. But for a lot. of people their work and life experience. knocks them down to make them think. they're just a thought they're just a. flawed person. That's what I thought when I was in my. 20s and 30s too. And if I made a. mistake, I could obsess about it for 3. weeks. Now it's 3 hours, sometimes 3. days if it's really bad. But you know, you do you you learn to accept you make. mistakes and life goes on and you try. again. So there's no shortcut to No, no,

no, no. Is there anything that builds on. itself? The nice thing about it is that. it builds on itself. It adds layer by layer, step by step. Is. there anything one can do to accelerate. that process? Why? So that we can become more confident. quicker. No, that's called arrogance. When a when a when a 22 year old, you. know, sometimes it's arrogant. I mean. there listen, there are things you can. feel confident about very early on and.

and you've tried them. And then there's. other things. It's also not I am. confident. I'm confident about certain. things. You can trust me on some things. You should not trust me to get you to a. certain place. neither on time, neither. without getting lost. So I have zero. confidence in that area, but I'm quite. confident in some of the things that I. do. And confidence doesn't mean that I. know or that I'm right. It's that I'm prepared to do things and. be mistaken and not know and try again.

Two different people can go through the. same experience and one of their. confidence can build and the other one. can lose confidence. Yes, that is the. biggest mystery question. Why two people. with the same story? For one, it becomes. what brings their resilience and what. gives them the drive and what makes them. be people that are engaged with life and. the world. And for the other person, it's what broke them. It's what crushed.

them. It's what that makes it so. impossible for them to actually put one. foot in front of the other. And if you. can ever tell me why this and versus. that, you know, why this person to it is. one of the great mystery questions for. any therapist for that matter in. general. Why the same circumstances. build the strength of one and become the. weakness of the other. There's clearly. some kind of a pair of sunglasses in. between what happened and how I. perceived it or something. There must be.

some I you know there's a lots of things. but what we do know is that for many. people who have major adverse. circumstances but manage to turn use. them and turn them and and really make a. beautiful life for themselves. It. usually there was one defining factor. that differentiates them from everybody. else who had similar circumstances is. that they had somebody who believed in. them. a coach, a teacher, a neighbor, not. necessarily a family member actually.

because the adversity is often in the. family. So, somebody who believed in you. when you didn't believe in yourself and. didn't give up even when you were. [ __ ] up. I had um a lady called Dr. Lisa Feldman on the podcast recently. who's a neuroscientist and one of the. things she said to me has really stayed. with me and I think about it a lot and I. talk about it a lot which is um she said. to me she told me the story of a young. lady who grew up and had some uh an. aggressive uncle who would like beat her.

and this young lady she was good in. school she slept well everything was. fine and then many years later this. young lady was watching Oprah Winfreyy's. show and it was about domestic abuse and. there was women on there crying and. talking about their trauma and all those. things and essentially this young lady. suddenly started to experience the. symptoms of trauma. Mhm. Unproductive in. education, couldn't sleep as well and. visibly traumatized. The trauma hadn't. appeared hadn't there was wasn't. symptomatic up until she watched this.

show with Oprah. And it made me think. that is there a possibility that some of. our trauma not all of it but some of it. is. like contagious i.e. We give meaning to. it when someone tells us the meaning of. what happened to us. like are we giving meaning to the things. that happened to us and it goes to what. we were saying here about you can go. through the same two thing but interpret. it differently do we inherit the meaning. externally from somewhere you know it's. interesting because I think about this a.

lot with things like anxiety I'm like it. feels like you know I know the world has. changed and we're less connected but it. does feel like. had I not known that anxiety existed, I. probably I'm unsure whether I I would. have personally experienced it. I think. that the anxiety culture actually kind. of made me anxious. It made me label the. feeling. And I'm just wondering if you. have a perspective on this idea that we. like give meaning to. our experience and then that yes of.

course all the time we give meaning to. everything. We are meaning making. machines and if you don't do an. individual meaning attribution you get a. collective cultural social attribution. In our society we may call it anxiety. In another society we may call it the. ancestors are unhappy. Somebody is a spirit is knocking at your. door. Somebody has not been properly. mourned. Somebody is being um degraded.

So, so there's every every ill ease, every disease. has a story, has a meaning, has an. attribution. The words change. That's on a cultural level. I think it's. very important to not just individualize. these things and think I give meaning. You we give the meaning that our culture. has taught us to give. You've learn you. So, you've kind of become you're part of. the anxiety generation. So you put you.

give words of anxiety, stress, burnout. There's a whole lingo that is that. didn't exist 40 years ago by the way. I. mean those words existed but they were. not nearly in the vernacular of the. moment. They were not part of the. therapy speak of dour you know they were. not on Tik Tok. So there were other. words that were people used and you know. every century has certain names. Hysteria we don't hear much about. hysteria these days. That was a 19th.

century thing. It's mental health now, you know. So, we changed the words, but. we still are trying to give meaning to. our. ill ease. I guess this is a question of. identity as well, which is who do I. think I am? And who I think I am will. probably become who I am, at least as it. relates to relating to people. No, no. Who do you think you are is part of who. you are and how other people see you is.

also a part of who you are. We are. constantly looking at ourselves from the. inside and from the outside. We do not exist without the inter in. integration of also the gaze from the. outside in. And it's a two-way street. all the time. So if I think I'm a late. person, you said, you know, get there on. time. Um, then I'm likely to be late. off more because I can I've identified. with that becomes part of my character. It starts to become how I predict my.

future. And Lisa Filmore was saying to. me that the brain is this prediction. machine. So it's like predicting um what. to what it will do next based on the. past. So my identity is like a. prediction of what I'll become. And you. know, same I think of this maybe the. same in relationships. Your behavior may. be a prediction but that doesn't mean. your identity. Don't confuse identity with behavior. It's it's it's they are connected but. your identity is a lot more than your. behavior.

You know at GFK there are three lines at. the airport. Yeah. One is for the. tourist, one is for the American. passport holder and one is for the. resident alien. The tourist may have been living in the. states for years, but they don't have. the papers. So the internal definition. is not recognized by the external. The. American, you may have been living your. whole life abroad, but you were born in. the US. So you have the papers, you have.

the external recognition, but the. internal one doesn't match. And then the. resident alien is the one who has been. there a long time but doesn't have the. is a guest of some sort right um and I. find that a fascinating moment to. understand identity when you stand there. what is internal what is external what. is seen from other how others recognize. you and think and how others define who. you are and how you define who you are. and these these are conversations.

that the question that you're asking. about trauma is a whole it's a different. question because. the trauma is not the event itself. The trauma is often in the experience of. the event without an empathic witness. without in it. Yes. Without what makes. an event traumatic is often the fact. that you experience something without an. emphatic witness. Well, it's not the fact that the the the.

you it's not the event itself. And so. what happens is she sees this Oprah show. and it's not just that she sees the. women tell their stories but she sees. Oprah with her unique kind of empathy. respond to the women and give value to. their experience and acknowledge it and. express the sadness that comes with it. and the devastation that they may have. experienced. And she she is the.

consumate empathic witness who gives not. just meaning to your story but because. before you can give meaning you even. have to acknowledge it. Mhm. You have to. recognize that it even happened. And in. many of those situations it's the lack. of acknowledgement that is the most. traumatic. Not the thing itself. or not only the thing itself the fact. that nobody even admits that this took. place. So as she's watching this. empathic resonance in front of her,

something opens inside of her that. allows her to finally. recogn cry, you know, her do her own. acknowledgement and realize what was. done to her. That's a different way of interpret and. I have no idea if that is true. But just. to give you another reading of what may. have happened to this woman. Mhm. And. for a while she will not sleep. And for. a while she because suddenly. in order to finally come to admit. something you need to feel safe to let.

it happen. And when you watch the opera. show with those women this is I just did. the opera. So I I had the people and I. see how she it's it's an amazing moment. of being held and experiencing a. container that allows you to experience. the pain that you've been holding in. interesting. I I was it's a very interesting um. alternative perspective especially this.

idea of this the empathic witness and. the minute you see empathy shown to your. experience um in such a way yeah maybe. you have permission to feel in a way. that you didn't get to feel but also in. that environment I imagine there was a. studio audience and they were providing. empathy and there was Oprah and they. were providing empathy and then you had. someone she could relate to who in that. scenario was. being held and had a label like an. implicit label attached to their. experience. But she does it without. audience now. And um it's it's I think.

it was a long time ago. So when she used. to have her show many decades ago, I was. my first time on the opera show in ' 87. 87 with a studio audience. Yeah. How was. it? It wasn't. a very powerful experience for a woman, a young woman as I was back then. It was. just like what? Yeah. This is quite. embarrassing for me to admit. But if you. know me well, there's something that you. know about me which is a function of my.

personality and that is that I lose. everything. I've lost my wallet. I've. lost multiple passports. I now actually. have two passports because there's a. high probability of me losing one. And. when you lose your wallet overseas, as I. have many times, it's a particular. inconvenience because you also lose your. driving license and your credit cards. and those kinds of things. And that's. why I'm so happy that our show sponsor. Extra have invented this thing I have in. my hand. They have partnered with. Apple's Find My Technology. So, all I. have to do is open their app and play a. noise and it will tell me where my. wallet is. Extra wallets are slim.

They're made of recycled aluminium and. they block various types of digital. theft. And with one click, your cards. can pop up and are ready to go. So, if. this sounds like the kind of thing you. or a friend needs, visit extra.com. You. can use code Steven and you'll get 10%. off plus free shipping and a 100day. trial. That's extra.com and use code. Steven at checkout. I think B2B. marketeers keep making this mistake. They're chasing volume instead of. quality. And when you try to be seen by.

more people instead of the right people, all you're doing is making noise. But. that noise rarely shifts the needle and. it's often quite expensive. And I know. as there was a time in my career where I. kept making this mistake that many of. you will be making it too. Eventually, I. started posting ads on our show sponsors. platform, LinkedIn. And that's when. things started to change. I put that. change down to a few critical things. One of them being that LinkedIn was then. and still is today the platform where. decision makers go to not only to think. and learn but also to buy. And when you. market your business there, you're.

putting it right in front of people who. actually have the power to say yes. And. you can target them by job title, industry, and company size. It's simply. a sharper way to spend your marketing. budget. And if you haven't tried it, how. about this? Give LinkedIn ads a try. and. I'm going to give you a $100 ad credit. to get you started. If you visit. linkedin.com/diary, you can claim that right now. That's. linkedin.com/diary. So, if I made you president of the. entire world and your job was to prevent. the the social atrophy, this decay of.

social connections and relationships and. you had to take three steps on a global. basis to they can be drastic steps. You. can delete mobile phones. Oh god. They. can be any drastic step you want to. take. I think that things are lived in. the details, not in the big things. Okay? You know, where was I recently? I. went to a place and I remember making. the comment. Everybody says hello. People said hello. People were friendly.

when you when you went into a place, when you were on the street, when you. went it was like I said, "Oh my god, I. have I I have not been in a place." It. felt small enough but it wasn't small. where people kept saying hello have a. nice day this looks very good you know. so it's that basic you make it a law you. have to say no I don't legislate these. things at all I think it's more of a of.

a it's a cultural shift it's a it's a. return to to to practices that still are. prevalent in many other parts of the. world talking to strangers Yes. Talking. to strangers. Okay. So, you're going to. make it illegal. It's an incredible. thing to talk to strangers. Um, so. Esteel makes it illegal not to talk to. strangers during illegal. No. No. I said. don't bring the law into it. It's much. more art than law. Anybody who these. days can make people laugh or sing. together is doing holy work.

So go sing with people or go because. when you sing together you create you. create a collective resonance. You you. actually are bringing that resonance. that it is very empathic. It's very. kind. It's compassionate. It's caring. It's playful. It brings out a whole set. of other things in people. And the third thing would be teach. people how to have conflict. You asked.

me before when when when when you argue. with your with your partner. I think I. think that the the majority of our. arguments are about three basic things. And this is based on on Howard Markman's. work, but you know, it's not the issue. you're fighting about. Actually, what you can often ask is what. is it that you're fighting for? And what. people fight for when they argue. whatever thing they're having a spat. about. They fight for power and control.

Who makes the decision? And whose. priorities matter most? They fight for. trust, for care and closeness. Can I. trust you? Do you have my back? Can I. lean on you? Can I rely on you? Will you. show up for me? And they fight for. respect and recognition. Do you value. me? Do I matter? And does this all. translate to work? You've you've now. started doing a lot more work with. businesses and companies around sort of. their working culture and connection and. relationships in the workplace. All of.

those things you just listed there, are. they also the reasons why our. relationships are successful or. unsuccessful in a work environment? Absolutely. So I actually have been. working with corporations and in the. business world for quite a while um and. have been talking in and speaking in for. with corporations and companies. What is. new is that I I became an advisor to a. number of companies in particular in. this case with culture amp and and the. reason that became such a wonderful.

collaboration is because I brought my. clinical expertise and they're bringing. massive amounts of data science people. science 1.5 billion experience survey. points. I mean it's just like so it's. not no longer just my intuitive sense. It's backed. It's. And we created this card game because my. original card game, people wanted the. corporate was demanding for it, but. every time they had to take out the.

cards with the pink triangles, which. were the sex questions in order to make. it work safe, safe for work. So I said, "Okay, let's. create a game just for the workplace. that will create meaningful. relationships at work." And what's. fascinating is that what the research. showed is that there are four major. relational pillars that actually sustain. this quality of relationships in the. workplace and they are directly.

connected to these three things that I. said we fight for. So one was trust, one. was belonging. Okay. So on trust, how do. I know what what is trust in specific. terms? What does that mean? Trust is a. leap of faith. Trust is a sense that that is really. it's an active engagement with the. unknown says Rachel Butsman. It's like. trust is not I know for sure. Trust is I. don't know for sure and I'm willing to.

believe it. And that's the definition of. the word trust. And in a work context, what does that mean? It means that I can. rely on you. Yeah. On my team. Yeah. On. my manager. um that you uh you have my back. Yeah. That you're not going to betray me. You're not going to put your interests. ahead of mine. You are not going to take. credit where the when it's not yours. Um. that you care about me and that we are.

part of something together. So trust. then connects directly to a sense of. belonging that we are part of a group of. a company and in and I get a certain. sense of who I am by virtue of my sense. of connection to this group and the. group defines me and gets my. contribution. So it's a mutual. experience. Mutuality is essential to. living organisms be it in nature or in. social ecological systems. And there is.

recognition means that there is respect. that I feel valued that I feel that my. that I contribute and that it is. recognized. This is essential because I. could achieve and perform and meet the. productivity goals and all of that but. if nobody pays attention to it, it. doesn't really meet the need. But the. biggest one is the collective. resilience. To me, that's the one that. really stands out because. resilience isn't an individual matter.

only. It's not just a set of traits that. exists inside of you and that you need. to tap into in order to face adversity. and all of that. Resilience is how we at. this point in particular are able to. respond creatively and adaptively and. flexibly to all the changes that are. happening. The workplace is in massive. flux, massive flux. And from a. relational point of view, it's huge. And. it is basically at this point becoming.

no longer just a soft skills. It's. becoming the new bottom line. Basically, Esther, thank you so much. Thank you so. much for the work that you do. I I when. I've met you the first time, I was. convinced that you're in fact an alien. from another planet because you have an. ability to understand situations. um at a deeper, more intuitive level. than anyone I've ever met. Specifically. as it relates to just like the human. condition and the way that we are, the. excuses to make the patterns of a human. and it really like shocked me. You were.

able to see through me in a way that I. did not like, but I appreciate it. Um and it's really. remarkable. There's very few people I've. ever met that are like that that have. that ability. It's a really really. special thing. Um, and it's been the. cause of so much healed and cured and. fixed problems for so many of us. We. have a tradition on this podcast where. the last guest leaves a question for the. next guest, not knowing who they leave. it for. The question left for you is, how are you going to adapt to a world of.

AI and robots? I am going to uh. use AI as a tool as I just did an hour. before I came here. I was in a meeting. and we were generating ideas and uh and. one of us asked the AI uh exactly this.

uh what would you see is the next step. in the collaboration between what would. be bold collaborations between Estelle. Purel and Culture AMP the very company. that with whom I created the cards and. the AI gave us incredible ideas but it. was both we had AI and we had the. people. The people could use the AI, the. AI became way more relevant because it. had the people. So, as long as I can use. it as a tool. um to foster the communication and to.

generate ideas and between me and. others, I think that um. I am still shaping it and it is helping. me. I would hope that it doesn't just. begin to shape me or us all and make us. into a species that none of us can yet. imagine. Some people are very much looking. forward to that new species. I kind of. like the ones we've been.

We imperfect creatures. We're. unpredictable. But there is something fascinating about. human beings that has been the core of. my work. Thank you. Again, I'll link the. cards below for everyone to go and get a. pair. I think I'm I think I'm going to. use them in at the very start of the. week with my teams. So, just to kind of. create a bit of a space where we can. connect with each other before we get. into more difficult work, but also. there's other sort of work environments. when I have new investments and stuff.

like that. It's really, you can do it. one-on-one, you can do it on boarding, you can do it offsite, but there is. something about the weekly meeting, all. hands on deck kind of meeting where we. do a card, one person each and I can. tell you and especially when it's. remote, which you are not. Yeah. But. there everybody knows the the the. lackluster attention that you can get in. a Zoom meeting with everybody doing five. other things at the same time. You just. need to track the eyes.

But once people start to tell stories. like this, people get the others are. interested and are listening. It changes. the whole dynamic. So, uh it's a. beautiful ritual to have your weekly. start with a few cards. Um Esther, thank. you so much for all that you do. So, so. wonderful to see you. I feel like you. you help correct me and uh in an. important way and you do it with such. what was one of them today when you were. talking about the dementia and the. Alzheimer's and that ambiguous loss I.

felt I felt that because I think. sometimes. sometimes I um I create that impression. and my one of my ex-girlfriends said. that to me she said even if you're. sitting next to me I feel like you're a. million miles away and I remember. thinking it's such a horrible way to. make someone feel you know and my. girlfriend. It's what a wonderful thing. it is for someone to want your attention. and to want you to hug them and to want. you to care about them and to look at. them. What a wonderful privilege that is. and to like insult that privilege by.

being a million miles away. I just. thought this horrible thing it is that. you know how often during the day do you. send just a little sweet nothing? I know. I need to do that more. I don't know. Do. you know how much it changes a person's. Yeah. just to say that you're thinking. about them as well because I do think. about them but I just don't I don't you. know so you're saying it to me. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. I need to say it to her. I'm going to say I'm going to tell her. now Esther. Okay. Life is lived in the details. It's all.

these small things. It's not it's like when you ask about. the changing of the world. I I don't. think in these big things. And this, you. know, when it's done authentically, it's not big and it. Yeah. Okay. Okay. That puts energy into. a relationship. She said, "Oh, with a. little heart face." She said, "Sweetheart.".

And she's typing. Okay, you got it. No, I don't. The hardest conversations are often the. ones we avoid. But what if you had the. right question to start them with? Every. single guest on the diary of a co has. left behind a question in this diary. And it's a question designed to. challenge, to connect, and to go deeper. with the next guest. And these are all. the questions that I have here in my. hand. On one side, you've got the. question that was asked, the name of the.

person who wrote it, and on the other. side, if you scan that, you can watch. the person who came after who answered. it. 51 questions split across three. different levels. The warm-up level, the. open up level, and the deep level. So, you decide how deep the conversation. goes. And people play these conversation. cards in boardrooms at work, in. bedrooms, alone at night, and on first. dates, and everywhere in between. I'll. put a link to the conversation cards in. the description below and you can get. yours at the diary.com.

This has always blown my mind a little. bit. 53% of you that listen to the show. regularly haven't yet subscribed to the. show. So, could I ask you for a favor? If you like the show and you like what. we do here and you want to support us, the free simple way that you can do just. that is by hitting the subscribe button. And my commitment to you is if you do. that, then I'll do everything in my. power, me and my team, to make sure that. this show is better for you every single. week. We'll listen to your feedback. We'll find the guest that you want me to. speak to and we'll continue to do what. we do. Thank you so much.

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