Secret Agent: If You’re Easily Offended, You’re Easily Manipulated! This 1 Trick Catches A Lie In 2s

If I'm easily offended, I'm easily. manipulated. So, if you are that person. where you are reactive, reactive, reactive, Rule number one, shut the [ __ ] up. Cuz if you're looking. to be respected, you need to manage. yourself. But, there are times that. people are going to cross you and. disrespect you. How do you deal with it? So, there was a guide post that's taught. to the intelligence communities, and it. really, really helps when you're dealing. with people. And so, one of the ways you. deal with that kind of behavior is. Evelyn Farkas, a former Secret Service. agent turned human behavior expert. From. protecting presidents to interrogating. the world's most dangerous men.

She now teaches people how to develop. mental strength and persuasive. communication skills. How did they train you as a Secret. Service agent to have that strong mental. foundation that you have? There's a lot of things. So, first, one. of the biggest things that holds people. back is the idea that I'm special. You're not that special. For example, I. was one of the first responders at 9/11. I watched thousands of people die. And. one of the things that got me through it. was understanding I wasn't alone in it. And when you learn that, you can get. through anything. When you tell yourself. nobody knows what I'm going through, nobody can help you, cuz it's just you.

going through it. Now, the next thing, what's most important is this tool that. we don't pay attention to, our body. And. there's this study where they started. recording people walking. Then, they. played it to convicted felons, and they. said to them, "Who would you pick as. prey?" They all picked the same people. They were. So, there are simple things you can do. with your hand, your voice, how you sit, and I will tell you everything. But, also, the other thing that's actually. interesting, which you didn't ask, but I. will volunteer this information, are the. strategies to tell if somebody's being. truthful or not. And it's That's lie. detection 101.

This has always blown my mind a little. bit. 53% of you that listen to this show. regularly haven't yet subscribed to this. show. So, could I ask you for a favor. before we start? If you like this show. and you like what we do here, and you. want to support us, the free, simple way. that you can do just that is by hitting. the subscribe button. And my commitment. to you is if you do that, then I'll do. everything in my power, me and my team, to make sure that this show is better. for you every single week. We'll listen. to your feedback. We'll find the guests. that you want me to speak to. And we'll. continue to do what we do. Thank you so. much.

Evy Poumpouras, when you think about the books that. you've written, the content you produce, and all that. you're fundamentally doing for people, in your own words, how do you summarize. or define that? What is it that you. think you're doing for people with the. content, the books you've written, etc.? It's a great question, and I don't know. if I have a clear answer. I think always. I think about. how am I serving other people? I always go back to that. I remember.

even when I wrote my book Becoming. Bulletproof, actually my book was. supposed to launch right at the height. of COVID. I mean, it's when the world. was shutting down, and. I remember I had a PR person, and my. agent, and the publishers, everyone's. like, "Hey, you know, this COVID thing is happening. All the media tour blitz went away. Why don't we postpone the launch of the. book?". And nobody was advising me to launch the. book. Nobody. Everyone's like, "Drop.

Don't do it. Don't do it." And I. remember I was like, "All right, I need. to kind of tune everybody out." And I I. paused, and I I thought to myself, "Why did I write this book? I wrote this. book to help people. Okay, so if the. goal is to help people make them more. resilient, help them live less fearlessly, the. world right now is in a state of fear. So, if I follow that principle, then right now I should launch the. book.". And I remember against everybody's. advisement,

I launched it. And when you get DMs from people in. private messages, what is it the essence. of what they're coming to you for? So, I was surprised with my book where. people began writing in, "I'm dealing. with this problem. Your book helped me find a way out.". Or I'm dealing with this. Can you give. me guidance on how to deal with it? What is the essence of what they're. struggling with? It's always themselves.

It's not the It's not the world around. you. I get it. to some extent, but it's almost always. we're the problem. We either sabotage ourselves, we get in. the way, we make decisions, or we think, "I didn't do anything." Everything's. cause and effect. Anytime you say, do, act, or don't act, it has a consequence. or an effect to it. And I think. sometimes we're so blasé about it. In. the Western world, the science shows. that we actually downplay our faults. When we make a mistake, it's not that. big of a deal. We downplay our stuff,

and we actually lift up our positive. attributes. It's okay, but to a point, because when you. downplay things, and you downplay your. involvement, you downplay your choices, you downplay what role you play. in your life, then you can't you really are. essentially powerless, and you're. you're blaming the world. And I'm not. saying that other people can't harm you. They will. They just will. I think if. people made peace with the fact that. there bad actors out there, some I know,

some I don't know, and in pursuit of. their self-interest, people are going to. make choices that hurt me. Period, bar. none, the end. If you can live with that and understand. that, you will be okay. Because you just have more awareness. In. fact, in the when I did polygraphs, the. interview room, after I interviewed so. many people, and typically I would. interview suspects, um people that we suspected committing a. crime. So, Lie detector tests. Lie detector tests. But I was a lie detector.

Not the machine. A lot of people think. you hook that thing up, "Oh, ping, they're lying." No. Like you sit there, you assess people, you read people. What the polygraph does. is it tells you when you ask a series of. questions to this person. I hook Steven. up, I ask him a series of several. questions. I look to see what Steven's. autonomic nervous system is doing. Heartbeat. Right? Does that change? Your electrodermal activity, how much.

you sweat. Your breathing, the way you breathe. So, that's why you have the blood pressure. cuff, you have the electrodermal plates, which actually look at sweating. You. won't it's imperceptible to you, but the. plates will pick up sweating at the. sweating activity, the change in. breathing. So, if I'm asking you a. series of questions, I'm looking at how. your body deviates during those. questions. Uh you even have sensors cuz. sometimes people try to beat the. polygraph. And so, there's sensor pads. that we have to see if they're doing. certain movements or not. I personally.

don't think you can beat it, but again, the test itself means nothing. You can't. take it to court, you can't say, "Judge, they failed their polygraph." That's not. what it's there for. It's there to get. more information. And look, who are you? If you're lying, who are you really in judgment of? Yourself. That's why your body's. reacting. Technically, you talked about how. victims stay victims. And. this whole idea of becoming a. bulletproof person, because regardless. of what we do in our lives, bad things. are going to happen. We're going to.

encounter narcissists and people that. are looking to take advantage of us. There's a certain mental fortitude that. you exude. You you exude a certain type of. mental resilience and strength. What is the founda- You know, and I. think that's really critical, because. if you have that strong. internal foundation, then all ev-. everything else we're probably going to. talk about today becomes much easier and. possible. But without that like strong.

foundation, when the wind blows, the. house falls over. So, if we think about step one in. building that strong. mental fortitude foundation that you. have, where does one begin? And especially if. we're beginning from a very, very bad. place. We're beginning from a place of. victimhood. Bad things have happened. We're not the most confident person. It starts with who's around you. That's where it starts. If you have. people around you, anybody can break victimhood. Like. anybody can. You can. So, I want to put.

that out there. Just because you're. locked in a place doesn't mean you have. to stay in there. You can. But usually you're if you're. locked in somewhere, it's because the. system you have around you. that you also helped create and. perpetuate to some degree. We're not. completely innocent. We play a role. The system that is built around you. keeps you. Think of it this way. It keeps you in. jail. So, you have to look at your environment. and say, "What about my environment is.

keeping me here?". Usually it's a person. or people. Hopefully it's one and you're not. dealing with multiple. Now, it can be family. And that's where. you know, some with when you deal with. children and you deal with certain, you. know, crimes and abuse. I I I You know, I always feel like the. one population of people that truly have. an. Like I don't want to say excuse, but you. it's really not their fault, our kids. Because they're just so vulnerable and.

like they rely on you for their their. livelihood. They need somebody to feed. them, clothe them, take care of them, or. they can't survive. However, if as you age, right? As you mature, it's looking at your environment, who's. around me and who is keeping me here. Who it And you know what becomes hard? It becomes hard because you'll have a. Let's say a I don't. I'm going to use this term bad actor in. your life. That bad actor can be mom, dad, sibling, brother. It can be.

anybody. You can love that bad actor. But the choices and the things that that. person does impacts you. It makes you. more vulnerable. Even if you when you. look at Even if you just look at crime. um. they did They've done a lot of different. studies. And what they found is. even let's say if I don't commit crime, but I'm around other people who commit. crime, I am more likely to be shot than. any other population of people. I could.

not be involved in any nefarious. activity at all. I could be clean, but simply because of. who I associate with. that makes me more vulnerable. to being uh to becoming a victim. So, that's what where you start. Who's. around you? Now, other really important. things. whoever you pick for your companion, if. you have one. it's huge. That companion's either going. to raise you up or they're going to sink. your ship down. And is that in the real world, best.

friends, husbands, wives? If we're talking I would say first. intimate partner. Whatever that is to you. Husband, wife, boyfriend, girlfriend, whatever that is, companion. That's number one because. that's the person Here's the difference. between a like a partner and a a friend. Your friend goes home to their home. You. go to your home. A companion or partner, you probably live with them. That means. you are so overly exposed to that person. and you need to make damn well sure that.

that person is not contaminating your. life. You can still love them, but you. can step back and look at there's a. problem here that this person's stuff is. contaminating my life. And it's a hard thing to do for folks. because this is why. you're with someone it's like, "Okay, I'm with Evie, but you know, Evie is. this and Evie is that." And so, you. start to blend my identity with my. behavior. And then over the time, too, you normalize the things I do if I'm a.

bad actor. Well, Evie you didn't mean. it, she's always hot-headed, you know, she's this, but she did all these nice. things for me here. And then what we do. is we miss stuff. That's why it's easier. for you to look at somebody else's. relationship and be like, "Hey, problem. here, problem here, problem here.". Because you are not tainted. by the emotional. aspect of. being tied to that person. You're able. to look at them objectively. This is why. by and on it's easy to give other people. advice. I can see the red flags and the. issues in this person. When you're in.

it, you can't. It's hard. So, I would also venture to say and. people may not like this. If you're with. someone and there are people around you. that you know legitimately care and love. you and they're telling you, "Hey, not the best thing for you.". I would say please listen. Because they. are seeing something that you might not. be seeing. Do you think people just tend to know? Like in their gut they tend to know, but. they justify the person's behavior and.

they almost. kind of gaslight themselves. to some degree. They say, "Well, maybe. not. Maybe that's fine. Maybe they are a. friend. Maybe they they're just doing. that for my best interest." Whereas. really that bad actor is acting in their. interests and kind of gaslighting you. and then you're gaslighting yourself. I think it's. One thing is you don't you don't go from. zero to 100 overnight. When you're in a. relationship or you're with around. people who are like that, it in the. beginning you don't see it, right? Everyone's got their best behavior.

But over time you'll start to see little. like sneak peeks, little previews. And it's those previews you want to pay. attention to. We like to give people the benefit of. the doubt. We listen to the excuses that. they give us. And you know, there's this. ancient Greek saying that says, "Don't. listen to your opponent. Look at them. It will tell you everything.". And when I say, "Look at them." look at. what people do. I need you to drum out what they're. telling you. I need you to drum out. their I am sorry's because they probably.

are. They've hurt you and they are probably. genuinely sorry. That's not the point. The point is. when do you want to learn your lesson? In the beginning. or at the end? And at the end sometimes it's very, very, very hard. Now, I have a community. and I started after I did the book and. when people started writing in, I said, you know, let me do this community. I'll. call it Beyond Bipolar Proof and whoever. signs up. and.

you know, 2 years in it's I have a 800. members and we. a lot of people come in with different. scenarios and they'll come in with. and it's almost always. the scenario they come in with, if. they're something like this, it's. somebody that they're tied to. that's just sinking them, sinking them. So, and sometimes they're the sinker. And they think it's the other person. So, sometimes you're the bad actor and. you don't even realize it. So, you need. to figure out two things. Am I the one doing things that's not.

just hurting myself but other people but. I've justified it to myself. in pursuit of whatever self-interest I. have or am I tied to someone who's. pulling me down? I'm going to tell you. something, Steven. I sat across people. who did a lot of different things. Some. serious crimes, some not so serious. Every single person sold it to themself. why they did what they did. We're sellers. I can justify anything to myself if I.

want to. They were turning themselves into, I. guess, victims of situations like this. I do that? Well, you know, good people make bad choices. Good. people make mistakes. The problem is. sometimes the consequences of those. mistakes. they last. But you can't vouch for anybody. cuz you don't know who people are behind. closed doors. You don't. And two, anybody is capable of anything at any. given moment in time if given the. opportunity. If you understand that, you will not be.

surprised. or shocked by anything or anyone. It's not that it's a morbid view of. people. It's understanding people are. malleable, they're susceptible, some. more than others. Some. may have a either stronger integrity or. more I don't even think it's integrity. It's just a stronger hold on themselves. to say yes, I won't do this. No, I won't. do this. Um and then some people are a bit more. malleable. Like it's easier to get to. them. It's either easier to manipulate.

them. It's easier to mold them to do. other things. It's easier to get them to. sway in a direction. But if you understand that, then you. under you understand human behavior. There's so many things of interest that. I remember if we go back to the top of. your point around your environment and. people having a huge impact on your. life. I remember reading a study by a. guy called Michael Houseman and another. study done done at Harvard University. where they showed that even if at work. you sit next to someone who is toxic and. does like bad practice at work, your. chance of doing bad practice yourself.

radically increases. And in some cases. that's by 25% and in other environments. that's up to 100%. Your your probability. of then getting a disciplinary against. you just because you sat next to that. person radically increases. And this is. I think reinforces the case that your. environment is has such a powerful and. profound impact on you for better or for. worse. And I think the for better part. is also worth pausing on. Because if you're sitting with and. you're around people that are lifting. you and elevating you and making you. believe that the world is malleable and. you can do anything, as I've experienced.

in my own life at times, it's crazy that that almost like rewires. the neurons in your brain to some. degree. How do you pick people? Like how do you differentiate. on your own. who's good and who's not for you? Do you You. This is really interesting question. Vibes. And everything else in my life, I'll. tell you data science or this or here's. my framework, but there's some things in. life which I think your intuition and. your vibes, if you've developed the. skill of tuning in enough, is the best.

indicator. And if you think if you look. back through my career, at 18 dropping. out of university, even at 16 not going. to school, 20. leaving a business that was going really. well, and then at 27 quitting a business. that was all over the world and about to. do this major second IPO, all this. stuff. In all of those moments, the most. important thing wasn't my prefrontal. cortex, it wasn't logic or facts or. figures or the money, it was purely this. feeling inside me. that I no longer wanted to do this thing. because it didn't feel good anymore.

And in the moment you look insane, but. when you zoom out on a person's life who. is driven by that voice inside, like. really driven by it, you go, "Oh my god, what a life that they have. Amazing. Look at Look at the girlfriend they have. and the place they live and the stuff. they have and the job they have. They're. so lucky.". But I actually think it starts with that. like courage to tune in to that voice. inside. So that's my answer, it's just. pure vibes. People for me, if I just. don't feel good, don't want to go. And then. careers I've had as CEO, where I go, "I. don't like doing this anymore. That's. That's me done.". And there's another part which is on the.

other end of that is uncertainty. Because. in all those situations, there was. really no plan B. There was no good plan. B. That's so interesting. So, when you talk. about vibes, it's your intuition. It's. your instinct. And bar none. And it's. when. when I'm around people, like anybody. around, they give off something. And what we don't do is we don't listen. to what we feel. You can still do.

business or talk to someone, but when. you feel that, and I do too, I feel my. way, even honestly, even whose podcast I'm. going to do. I'm like, "I don't know if I like this. vibe." Or I don't know if I like this I. just feel it. Mhm. I feel like who do I want to be around. and even something like whose podcast do. I want to be on? Because it's I'm bringing myself into a. space, right? Mhm. That person's space it's like it's all. it's all interconnected. So it's like. I'm choosing what spaces to go into. And.

if you're right if it You don't have to. articulate it to yourself and that's. where we go wrong often because it's. like somebody comes in they say hi to. you and you immediately you're like I. just I don't like this. But they didn't say anything to you. They didn't do anything to you. You. can't articulate why and you know what. we do we dismiss it. We dismiss it. Oh, it's me. Oh, I. shouldn't this No. It's You know what? It's you're you've got two brains, right? This one. and the gut. That's why they call it the. the your gut instincts. Listen to it.

always and I think going back to people. who are steady you're talking about what. makes you steady. I think a big part of what helps make. you steady is trusting in yourself. You have to trust in yourself. Like. believe in yourself and when I say that. I mean trust that what you're feeling. is is is true. Like listen to it and not. let other people talk you out of things. or. being able to say I feel this way. I. don't know why.

but I'm going to trust it. And almost if not all the time you look. back and it's like I knew better. I felt this. I kind of sensed this. I didn't listen. to myself. And if you're wrong, so. you're wrong and that goes back to. uncertainty. People are afraid to be. wrong. Why? Because of what other people might say. about me, because how I will look. to the world. and. you know.

from there from that conclusion you then. jump to and then they will reject me and. then I'll be alone and then I'll be. lonely me I'll die. That's kind of like the logical the. downward step. I always find that. interesting. I had this conversation. with my girlfriend yesterday. Uh which. is it's interesting how one belief is. actually connected to like a string of. downstream beliefs that then go to he. doesn't love me. And this is such a random tangent, but. me and my girlfriend were like. scheduling our calendar for the future. that we're going to be apart for a. little while. So, um she wanted to like. schedule the dates and I was like really. busy with something. And so, I wasn't.

like paying as much attention to the. scheduling conversation. And she got a. little bit upset. And I find it so. interesting cuz the fact that I was half. paying attention to the scheduling. conversation actually told her that I'm. not interested in her, which means I. don't love her. And and so, afterwards I. turned to her and said, "Can you explain. to me like how I made you feel in that. situation?" And we I went "Why? Why?". Every time she answered, "Why? Why?" And. we got right down there. You don't love me. And it all started with this little. thing at the top. And I think the same. here where if I.

do something and it goes wrong, there's like a downstream consequence. with the influence of conscious that. leads them to think. then I'm going to be exiled from the. tribe. Do you know what I mean? That's like at the root of it. That's why I think fear, you know, when. we you talk so much about fear and. becoming fearless. Living fearlessly cuz I don't think you. can be fearless. Okay, living fearlessly. What's the. distinction? Fearlessly means. I see things despite being afraid I'm.

going to try. I'm going to do my best to. like. live in it. Right? And embrace it to. some degree. Whatever you're afraid of, if it's something you want to do, follow it. And then figure out a way to to do it. But it's okay to be afraid and uncertain. during the process. I don't know. When. I'm uncertain too, I'm thinking, "All. right, I can figure this out.". You don't fail until you stop. I I look at it that way. Like even if. you're failing incrementally, overall. you won't fail until you're just like, "All right, I'm done.".

And as long as you're done cuz you want. to be done, that's cool. But you don't want to be. done because. you keep failing or you're confused or. you're you're you're leaving because. somebody other people are telling you. shouldn't be doing it. It's just because you decided. I don't want to be on this path anymore. I think it's it always has to come back. to you. I think I've always been in the school. of thought cuz and I love my family, but they were always telling me do this. and specially because my parents were. immigrant, everything was job security.

Get a good job. Get a good job. 9 to 5, get a good job. Don't try to do anything. else. You know, cuz they struggled so. much. And so when I tried to do things. outside of that element, they were. afraid, they were confused, they thought. I was nuts. Even when I started in the NYPD, they. were not they were not happy at all. They're like, what is this? Girls don't. do these types of jobs. At at even in my. community, uh they they you know, I was laughed at. You know, people kind of were like, oh. look at Yianni, who's my dad's name.

Look at Yianni's daughter. Look at look. how silly she's she is. You know, so. this is kind of like those moments where. you. going back to you just have to do what. you feel. Because afterward, you're going to be. pissed off as hell. because you listened to other people. And on that point of gut instinct, which. you mentioned a second ago, is there a. way, do you think, to train and develop. your gut instinct? Cuz you strike me as. someone that has a pretty astute gut. instinct that you trust, but.

some people don't. And what ends up. happening is they just end up living in. regret that they didn't listen to their. gut instinct. And they you know, like. they only find out after the fact, after. they've been mistreated. So, I'm. wondering if there's a way to like. cultivate a better relationship with. one's intuition and gut instinct. Yeah, stop asking everybody what they. think. When I have a really big decision to. make, like really big, I don't I don't tally people. In fact, the bigger it is, the bigger.

the consequences or the bigger the the. pain or the trauma, whatever it is, I go. in. Because they're going to confuse me. That's what you do. You stop asking. people. And if you're going to ask somebody, let's say it's a health decision. You're. going to go to a doctor or you're going. to go to someone who has specific. knowledge about a decision you are. trying to make. You're not going to go. to mom. You're not going to go to dad. You're not going to go to your brother. You're not going to go to people who. don't have that, who although they love.

you, their opinions are going to send. you like a ping pong ball. That's how. you become unsteady. And you can start small. You can start small. And when I say. start small, I start making decisions. without running them by anybody. What to eat, where to go, where to. vacation. Just You can start small. It's. just allow yourself to be the decision. maker. Allow yourself to be in the. driver's seat. But what we do is. we invite people in the car. We're like,

"Hey, yeah, you can drive my car. No. problem." They get in the driver's seat. We put him in the driver's seat. Then. we're in the passenger's seat or we. might even get kicked to the backseat. And then we're all pissed off like, "Why. you driving like that? Why are you going. that way? That's not really where I want. to go." Then drive the car. And stop inviting everybody in to drive. it for you and then be pissed off when. they don't take it the direction you. want to go. If you're going to be pissed. off, always be pissed off at yourself. Because it's like, I chose. I chose. wrong, but I chose. That is how you build confidence. And.

you know, going back to law enforcement, cuz I teach it, one of the predominant. traits that people in law enforcement. have. is um. they are they have high confidence. because of one reason. They are they make decisions. They're good decision makers because. when you're out on the street and you're. dealing with somebody or situation, there's nobody to look over to and say, "Hey, how should I handle this?".

You have to make a choice and you have. to go. Making decisions is going to increase. your confidence and your ability in. yourself, even if they're the wrong. decisions. That's not the point. Be a decision maker in your life. That. is going to move you forward. That is. going to increase your belief in. yourself and your trust in yourself. And. you're going to get comfortable, too. Huh, I read that wrong. You know what I. learned here? I should have read it this. way. And so, this is when you bring in. the vibes and a little bit of tactical.

strategy, because you're less emotional. That's another. That's another hindrance. When you are. emotional, you are a bad decision maker. When you are in a space of emotion, make. no decision. Avoid Don't text. Don't. call. Don't I always say, just remove. yourself and go in. Go quiet. When you. can go quiet and be in that stillness of. you, it will come to you. Over time. And you know what's another. great thing? And when you look at.

resilient people, they don't have all. the answers. and they don't need to have all the. answers. I don't have all the answers, but I. don't need them to be okay. And this is where you embrace that. uncertainty. You don't have to have all. the answers. And that by itself is. powerful. Like, you don't need to figure. it out. You don't need to know what to. do right away. Leave it. Sit in it. Be in it. Then when it's time, you move through.

You're going to end up getting a lot of. unsolicited advice, though, you know? This is We all do. We get When we're. making trying to make those big life. decisions, we'll have someone who We. didn't even ask them, but people will be. chipping in telling you what to think of. yourself. And then there's an element. almost, I guess, of being able to. develop stronger boundaries in your life. so that you can keep the outside world. outside. Okay. So, then how about you stop. telling everybody your business? Why do they need to know what you're. thinking about doing here or there?

Why? Because when you open your mouth to. share things, you're going to get. advice. So, this goes back to you. Do I open my mouth or do I stay quiet? Cuz if I open my mouth and I start. talking, people are going to start. sharing. And so, when people like, "Oh, they. don't respect my boundaries." You're the. one who offered it. If you want to create boundaries, you. start with them. I don't share. Or like. if I'm like for example, I'm working on. a project or a deal, nobody knows until.

my deal is done. Why? I don't know how it's going to go. I. don't want other people's opinions. I'll. have the opinions of whoever I'm dealing. with specifically in a deal, if it's a. project, right? I'm going to talk to. them, but I don't want other people. confusing me. People confuse you. Good intentions, but. when you've got too many voices in your. head, that's why you can't trust yourself cuz. you've got all these other voices, you. can't hear your own. So, I know if I share something with. someone,

they're going to share their thoughts. And maybe I don't want them. I stay I I will tell you I usually stay. quiet. until I'm ready to reveal something. Also, I'll stay quiet. until. it's either done, like it's happened because so many times. you'll do something and it falls through. and it you're like you don't want to. have to explain it to other people. It's. like, why do I need to put myself in. that situation where I'm always talking? I think talking talking talking talking,

although. I think communication is good, but. sometimes it's over sharing. and over putting our stuff out there. How are you going to have boundaries. when you yourself violate those. boundaries? Like you just make yourself. like open borders, everybody come in. If you're a bit more methodical with who. you share what with and why, I think. that that's okay. But when you're like literally like. tallying everybody, even if it's like what job to do. Like. for example, there's a.

woman in the the community I have and. she's trying to figure out what career. to do. And she was kind of like, "My mom. says this, my dad says this." Grown. woman. And and and it was coming from a genuine. I like this, but I don't like that. And. she was ping-ponging everywhere. She's. like, "Evie, what's. You know, can can you can you share. something with me?" I was like, "Stop.". I was like, "Stop talking to everybody. Why are you tallying everybody to give. you advice? I was like, "I want you to. think about how insane what you're doing. is." You're going to another human being.

to ask them what job, what career you. should do. A job that you're going to. wake up every morning to get out of bed. to go do day after day after day. And. you're tallying and pulling other people. who are not going to be doing that. You're going to be doing that on what. you should do. Do you see a little bit. of the ridiculousness. of how you are asking somebody else. You're the one who has to get up every. morning and go do it. If you say that to her, and you ask her to justify why she's.

doing that, she might say, "Well, I'm just not sure. I just wanted to hear other people's. opinions. I just don't know.". You can. She can. You can do that. But if the. question is, "How do I learn to trust. myself?". You trust yourself more by listening to. yourself more. and asking other people less. That that that is how you get there. Clearly, she doesn't trust herself. there. No. And then maybe just the circle. around you is also too, you know, and I.

don't know if you've been able to do. this over the years slowly. I've also. accumulated people around me. over It takes time. where there are trusted people where I. can go to for specific things if I need. to because I like the way they move. through life. Uh. I I think that they they handle. themselves well. Maybe they do well in. business. They're thoughtful. I like. their character. And so over time you. can also I don't want to say accumulate, but you can kind of start to pull folks. like that in. Takes time because people.

are going to come into your life in. in different moments. And when you find. those precious gems. keep them a a bit close. And then you can start to accumulate a. a circle and it's not people you go to. every day. It's just people that you can. pick up the phone to hey Steven it's. Evie. Can I run something by you? Sure Evie, no problem. What do you want. to run by me? You can create those too. And at least. for me, I've been able over time slowly.

cuz it's not going to happen overnight. And then sometimes people come into that. space and sometimes you say mhm. I'm going to push you a little further. out. It's not working out anymore. That woman in that example. what does she ultimately need to do? Cuz. I can imagine in her world she's. not certain about any path. So she's got 20% certainty about going. in this direction, 30% certainty about. going in that direction apparently, and. maybe 40% about going in that direction, and then the rest is just a little bit. of confusion and procrastination and.

fear. What does she actually have to do? She just has to make a choice. And do it. Pick one and do it. There's no there's no perfect choice, Evie. But there isn't. There's no there's no. there's no way to know how it's going to. pan out. There's no way to know. Just choose. Choose something. Choose something. And even if it's wrong, you you know, find peace in like I chose. It was. wrong, but you know what? I'm not stuck. here. That's the other thing like you. know, you're you can change your.

decisions. Just because you choose. something, it doesn't mean you're stuck. there. We have the ability to get out. You do. You can find ways to get out and. say, "I made a wrong choice.". It's okay. You also have to be okay with it. The interesting thing within our. personal lives that I think causes such. procrastination versus business is in. business, especially if you're in a. startup, if you don't make a choice, or. even like I imagine in the Secret. Service, like if you don't make a. choice, there is an immediate. consequence. Whereas in your life, you.

can kind of meander for a year, 3 years, 5 years, and just sit and procrastinate. Whereas like in a Secret Service. situation, when. Trump is being shot at, meandering for 5 years as a Secret. Service agent, I imagine isn't possible. So, that is something what will help. with that is. it's something called it's called. instrumental. It's called sense making. It's understanding a person's. motivational mindset. An instrumental. person in certain jobs can yield more. instrumental people. This is where.

I am doing something where I am task. oriented. This just happened, so I have. to respond this way. I'm going to do. that. I'm going to do this. Like I'm. looking at the overall, what is my next. step, then my next step, then my next. step. When you are instrumental, you are. non-emotional. I'm not in the emotion of it. So, although like if you bring up. a protectee getting shot, right? Although it can seem emotional, yes it. is, but in that moment, at least through. training, it's shots being fired, jump in front,

cover, shield, evacuate. You run through. those things. That's being instrumental. Right? Which is having like a a framework for. what to do next. You're you're being tasked. You're task oriented. I'm going to do. this. I'm going to do this. I'm going to. do this. You have a business decision to. make. Let's say something bad's. happening in the business. Okay, how do. I stop this hemorrhaging? I'm going to. do this. I'm going to do this. I'm going. to do this. That's instrumental. On the flip side of that is something. called identity. When I am identity, I.

am Oh my god, I can't believe this is. happening. This is horrible. I don't. know what to do. I'm confused. I'm really upset about. this. I can't believe I'm finding myself. here. Now I'm in that purgatory space of. not doing anything. I'm also emotional. So, I can't think clearly. And I'm not able to make moves. So, how did they train you as a Secret. Service agent to be have that. instrumental mindset? You do. Action. Action. Everything's action. Make a choice. Make a choice. Make a. choice. Move. Go. Go. Go. Do you know.

what's interesting? Everything was about movement. Don't be. still. Even when you're getting shot at, don't be still. They actually teach you. to run in zigzags. It's actually really hard to shoot. someone. If they're not perfectly still, I mean, we would shoot paper targets. You miss. You're stressed out. You're emotion. You're looking at this guy shooting, that person shooting. Am I shooting like. [ __ ] You know, cuz everyone's looking. at each other's scores. And you know, if. you don't shoot well, they're going to. be like, well, I don't want to take you. out on the next raid with me. Right? So,

you you're you've got that adrenaline. rush. It's a hard thing to do. Um but. they teach you like, hey, if you're. getting shot at, don't sit there like a. dummy. Move. Run. And while you're. running, run like zigzag. Throw people off. Move. And I And I've. taken that premise of always being. kinesis. Kinesis is a Greek move. Kinesis, move. Move. Always move. Create momentum, no matter how stuck you. feel. And I've I followed this actually in my. own just in my own life.

Just move. Don't sit still. I'm not. saying don't grieve. Don't be sad. Don't. feel. It's okay. But don't put yourself in a place where. you're completely stagnant. Cuz you That's where you get stuck. And. you don't move. And you get comfortable. And you become afraid. If you can just. create movement. I'm going to create a. little bit of movement. I'm going to. make a decision here. And another one, another one. If you can just stay in. kinesis, movement, you'll be able to move through. whatever it is you're going through.

I remember I interviewed Jocko Willink, and he said pretty much a very similar. thing to me. He said in. the SAS or the the Navy SEALs, when. you're lost, you're not going to get any. new information if you just stay where. you are. So, you have to just move, even. if you don't know which direction. Movement generates information, which. then can inform a better decision. And. you're kind of saying the same thing. there, which is if you're stuck, you. need to just get into kinesis, make a. decision, start moving, and then. you'll learn at least something. You'll learn something, even if it means.

reaching out to someone. It's just do. something that's helping you create some. type of progress. When when you don't move, when we don't. have kinesis, like this is where you get stuck in that. emotional depravity of like, I feel. horrible, this is happening. Like if you. can find ways to move out of your. problem, as bad as it feels, don't bathe in it. Like don't take a bath in it. Feel it, but like to a point. And you know what. else, too? You also don't have to figure.

it out. You don't have to figure out why did. this happen, or why did this person do. it. Sometimes there's nothing to figure. out. Sometimes it just is. Sometimes. there's brilliance. and freedom in just letting go and. saying, this happened, I don't know why. it happened, and I don't need to know. why. But, I can figure out how I need to. move forward. Kinesis, how am I going to. move out of this? Where do I go to next? There's not Sometimes the more you sit. and you analyze the stuff, the more pain. you put yourself through. You're.

re-thinking, you're re-telling, you're. re-living. And especially if you're re-living. things that somebody else did to you, like the pain and you know, you ever. have those moments where you start to. re-live, I should have done this, I. should have said this. Do you know what. actually activates the same part of the. brain that's activated when you do. cocaine. So, it becomes addictive. Yeah, makes you high. Think about that. As even you though it's negative. feelings, you're like, "Yeah, you're. having this whole thing happen." And. it's like, I always look at I want you.

know, I always look at is what I'm doing. leading me. to a to the path I want to go to. If. it's not, then I try to relinquish. I'm. like, "Listen, it's okay to feel bad, but you will feel. less bad if you can keep that momentum. going.". Being stuck in in that place of. victimhood or fear or procrastination, do you think that victimhood is. addictive? I think it becomes a habit. I don't think most people want to be. there. If you ask anybody, nobody's going to.

say, "Yeah, I love it.". But what happens is it becomes a habit. And it's a pattern of behavior and a. pattern and a way of thinking that you. become used to. What's the reward in that habit cycle. then? I don't know if there's a reward and I. don't know if people think about it. They just get stuck. And they repeat the same thing because. they're afraid and and uncertain. of if they change it, what will happen. You know, you'll see this in um. in relationships where.

you know, and it's not just domestic. violence, but but you'll see it in these. really imbalanced relationships where. you will see one person who's very. dominant and one person. the dominant person that'll be somebody. who's very high power, in control, setting the agenda, but not in a good. way. And then you'll see another person. who's very low power, weak, submissive, avoidant. The reason. why that relationship works is one is. here, so the other has to be here. They both can't be high power cuz. they'll clash. And so, that's why you.

when you see a lot of these imbalanced. relationships or severely imbalanced. when it's domestic violence, and it can. be man toward woman, woman toward man, or same sex, you will see that. it's one person who's up here. high control and then the other person. goes submissive, avoidant. This person. down here is just trying to keep the. peace. I don't want conflict. I don't. want to upset them. I don't want to set. them off. But what you do. is you go deeper and deeper and deeper. And the more you try to keep the peace,

the more you're submissive and avoidant. and uncertain, what does the other person do? The. higher up they go. Because you just help create this. imbalance, this further spread of power. in the relationship. They become louder, stronger, dogmatic, demanding, rigid. And then but that happens over time. And. then you find yourself in this space. where like, how did I end up here and. this person's here? And then that's one of those examples of. where another person keeps you literally.

suppressed. So how are you going to. trust yourself and your voice. and make good decisions if you have. such a an individual around you? And. that's another thing that keeps the a. person pushed down and suppressed. As a. woman Secret Service agent. when you first went into service. I imagine there was. a sort of institutional. sexism. Just thinking about that era, that time, where people would look at. you and think, well, that you know, as a.

woman, there wasn't as many women in the. Secret Service. So. maybe she's someone that I can. push down. Maybe she's someone who I can. make the odd comment to. Maybe I could. create power power dynamic where I'm. above her. Did that ever happen? And if. it did happen, how did you deal with it? So that's the like it's the truth is. that stuff does happen, right? And it it. could happen. I remember. Barbara Pierce Bush went to Tanzania. I'm the assistant detail leader. Which means I was like the head person. and then my boss from headquarters came,

but he wasn't there yet. And we were. having a briefing. And you're protecting the Bush family. I was protecting I was the uh assistant. detail leader for Barbara Pierce Bush. So George Bush Jr.'s daughter, one of. the twins. It's Jenna and Barbara. I had. Barbara. So she went there to do like. philanthropic work, aid, and we were. going to some really like not safe. areas, right? A lot of vulnerabilities, a lot of concerns. So I set up the. briefing. I'm the person in charge, and.

and agents are coming from different. parts of the country to help supplement. some some agents I've never met. So. remember one guy walks in. and he's like, "Oh, hey, hi." So this is. in the hotel room where we're having the. briefing, and no one's there yet. It's. just him and I. "Hi, you know, how are. you?" "Okay." He's like, "Hey, you know, the. the intern staff room is down the hall. if you want to go, you know, find it. I. can show you.". So when he saw me, he made an assumption. I was staff. Intern, you know, I was part of the. the entourage, but not an actual agent.

And so I'm like, "Actually, no, I'm I'm. I'm the. the assistant detail leader here. You know, thank you for joining. What. office are you from?". So now, could I be pissed off? Sure. Did. he make an assumption based on what he. saw? Sure. Those are moments where like. I don't care. Really? No. 0%? No. Who looked like a big dummy. afterward? He did, not me. It doesn't become annoying, but this is. like where you got to be like this is. where you have to pick your battles. You.

can't fight everybody. Oh my god, Stephen, imagine how exhausted you'd be. if you fought you fought every buffoon. you came your way. Some I mean, some people literally have. designed their life to fight buffoons. Right. And I'm busy. I have things to do. Think about how much time and energy. they take and waste from you, and that's. talk about a life of being stagnant and. doing nothing because you're too busy. fighting everybody. Choose and fight. strategically. So if it's something I. need to fight, fight. I'll give you. another example.

After September 11th, the the US Secret Service field office. was in the World Trade Center 7. So, when the towers collapsed, we lost our. whole office. So, immediately the Secret. Service New York office, they were trying to find a new home. So, they found office space in Brooklyn. And, you know, obviously, in a place. like that, like the office space needs. to be designed a specific way for like. what we're doing. Again, nondescript, nobody needs to know we're there, but. you're designing it to look and feel a. certain way to get things done.

I'm an agent now. I get called into the SAC's office, which is the head boss, and he says, "I need you to design this office for. me. Work with headquarters, get us nice. photos, make this look like our new. home. Um, you know, where we have a lot of. briefings here. I'm going to put you in. charge. of this. Can you do this?". Okay, yes, sir. There's 250 agents in.

the office. I get pulled for interior design duty. HGTV, here we go. So, I said, "All. right, no problem." So, I did. I'm like, "I'm going to do it. I'm going to own. it." And, I remember some of the women. were like, "Aren't you" I'm like, "No. worries.". I was like, "I'm going to do the best. damn job I can." So, I did. Took me. months. I made a nice office. I was done with. it. Fast forward. That same boss puts out an open bid. New. polygraph position. There's only two. polygraph examiners in the New York.

office, 30 throughout the whole US. Secret Service. A spot comes open, which. is rare. "Everybody put your name in whoever. wants it." Everybody puts their name in. People senior to me put their name in. And then, one of the senior polygraph. guys was like, "Why don't you put your. name in?" I'm like, "Dude, no way. No. one's going to confess to me. They're. going to see me, they're going to. high-five each other. I'm never putting. my name in." He's like, "Put your name. in. You don't know." I wait till like. the last half hour before they call it a. bid closes, and I threw my name in. I'm. like, it's not going to happen. Guess.

what? Week later I get a phone call. Come to my office. Same boss sits me. down. He's like, I had X amount of people put. in, maybe 30 or so people. He's like, I. picked you. And he said, do you know why? I said, no, sir. He's like, I gave you. that assignment to design the office and. fix it. And at no point did you [ __ ] or. complain or say anything to me. And in. fact, you did a great job. Thank you. This is your assignment. Put in. I need to understand here, something,

which is on one hand, I've got to be. protecting my boundaries, right? Don't. let people [ __ ] with me. On the other hand, don't make someone's prejudice my. problem and don't [ __ ]. and complain. Are these. mutually exclu- are these like two. separate ideas or is it like context. dependent? Because you know, if if I'm. protecting my boundaries, my boss calls. me and tells me that I'm going to be. doing the interior design job, potentially because I'm a woman, is not protecting my boundaries in that.

situation going, [ __ ] you, and calling him out? I could have. I could have, but I assure you I would. not have gotten that position. I also. knew somebody has to do it. So, he. happened to pick me. Maybe he likes my sense of style. Maybe not. Maybe because of. the way I look. Maybe because I'm a. woman. I don't know. You know what's. funny? He didn't know this. I actually. studied fine art in college. Hm. So, so I wasn't I wasn't that at fault and. and I also looked at, you know what too? I also looked at the opportunity because.

now I got to work with people in. headquarters that I never would have. gotten exposed to. And like all the historic archive stuff. So, there was a part of it I was like, oh, this is kind of cool. Now, could I. have argued it? I could have. But then, I guess you choose. I chose. not to. Long term, it worked out for me. There's. also times where. I don't know, Steven, like you can't. care so hard. People are going to slight. you. And like you choose how much you're. going to care about how much they. slighted you.

And I have noticed that the more I care, the more of a detriment it is to me. And. the less I care, the better I perform overall. All I'm. saying is just. choose strategically. Don't choose just. cuz you're pissed. Cuz if you're doing it cuz you're. pissed, now you're being ruled by emotion. And. anytime you make choices by emotion, you're going to make bad choices, bar. none the end. For a lot of people, the.

action they take following a situation. like that is so quick and almost like so. automatic. It's emotion. Yeah, then they just. and then they get and they might like. relax later and go, "Fucking hell, why. did I say that? I've ruined my life.". That's why I said it. That's why you're. easily manipulated. If you are the. person, and please know that I was that. person. If if you are that person where you are. just reactive, reactive, reactive, you're going to sink your ship. completely. It means you're not thinking. through things. It means you are just.

you have no self-regulation. I. self-regulate. Don't don't get me wrong. There's times. where I'm like, "I'm going to burn this. bridge down all the way and I don't. care. I'm good with it so long as I am. choosing clear-headedly, I'm going to. burn this bridge down.". But I'm choosing to do it. I'm not doing it reactively. I'm not doing it because I've lost. control. I'm doing it cuz I made that. choice. I'm going to burn this bridge. and this relationship and I'm 100% okay. with it. Do it.

But make sure you're doing it. Not the monkey inside your brain. Exactly. How do I train the monkey inside my. brain over time? Cuz you said you didn't. you used to be less regulated, right? You used to make more emotional. decisions. And over time you've come to. be able to make. those very rational. like. prefrontal cortex. decisions. Okay. And vibes. I shut up I started to shut up.

I just started to be quiet. When I'm. pissed, I go quiet. I don't say anything. Like it when you that I think that's the. biggest thing. I learned to be quiet. I. just learned to shut my mouth. Not to reveal your upcoming book, but I. know that one of the 100 um principles. in that book is called. 100 rules of engagement. Shut the [ __ ]. up. Rule number one. And the reason why is not to be vulgar. It's because. it helped me so much. Because.

the more you talk, just when you talk in general, the more. you talk, the more you reveal, the more. people know, the more you solicit, the. more people share with you, the more you. get confused, the more indecisive you. are, the more the more the more the. more. And when I learned to stop, self-regulate, not to shoot my mouth off because I was. offended, you can only get offended, first of all, if you allow yourself to get offended. There are times that people are going to. cross you and disrespect you. Yes? Yes. But like. how often can you be offended? And also.

there's times like who cares? Like I don't have to have everybody's. respect. That's another exhausting thing. I have that you need to respect me and. you need to disrespect me. He. disrespected me and I'm Greek. It's a. big thing. Like ah. But that that's going to wear you out. Like and you don't need it. There were. times where it maybe I worked with. people who I could tell I was not. wanted. I remember once. NYPD and I start off in the NYPD. NYPD. Queens Narcotics Unit. Sorry, guys. This.

is true story. And um. I was sent to partner up with Queens. Narcotics to take down this guy who was. doing child porn. and counterfeit money. in addition to drugs. So, I get sent to the task force. This. is a hardcore task force within the. NYPD. I show up with agents. I'm the lead agent in charge. And I show up and they were not happy to. see me. Not at all. And I remember walking in. I'm I don't know how it is now, I'm sure.

it's not, but you know, women's. calendars. centerfolds all over the place. I walked. in Personally, I didn't care, but I was. just like. this is going to be a problem. Not me, them. Them for me. And um. I could tell that they didn't want me. there. They started leaving information. out of briefings. They would ignore me. when we were at during the search. warrants. Like really tactical things. that they were doing that were wrong. And this was a ring of people that we.

were trying to take down. So, the first. time and then plus my team seeing this. So, I don't say anything. My team. doesn't say anything. My team's all. guys. And thankfully, I had like really. respectful agents with me. But these. guys are seeing it. They're seeing how. they're treating me by proxy them. No. one's saying anything. They're. disregarding us. Um and the reason why. we were asked to be there is because. we're experts in counterfeit. We're also. experts in child porn. So, we do the arrest. It's done. But. then there's a subsequent arrest that. happens. And we show up for that. Same thing.

Like literally ignoring you like you're. not even there. We do the arrest. We do. the prints. And at one point they even. leave the precinct. And we're like, where did they go? They just completely. ditched us. And I I remember going back to my group. leader. Uh Carl. And uh I go to Carl. I said, "Hey, listen. If these guys call again cuz there were. more arrests." I was like, "Don't send. me out there." And he's like, "Why?" I'm. like, "It's very clear they don't want. me there.". I said, "I don't want to fight, but I'm.

not also going to sit and stand my. ground and put myself somewhere I don't. want to be. I don't like the way it. feels. I don't want to be there. It's. bad for the team. Send a dude. Send a dude. Don't send me back out. there. I won't go. Is that letting them win though? No. Cuz they'll be at the office with their. posters up of these women and they'll be. like, "Yeah, we got rid of her.". Like yourselves out. I This is also where you choose what. circles you want to be in. It was a. circle I chose I didn't want to be in.

You can't change a mindset and culture. of people. Like if That's also Also, think about. it. It wasn't one person I was up. against. It was the whole group. So, now. I'm going to come in and bulldoze my way. into this what group mentality. I think. this is where I really learned to. navigate. And you have to be good at it. Like. where to fight, where to walk away from. And I was like, "I don't need to be. here. I don't need to prove anything to. anybody. I've earned it." And like half. of you yahoos couldn't become a special. agent if you you know, applied. Like. it's a hard thing to become to go from a.

cop to do that. So, with that, I was. like, "No, I don't need to." And it's. actually the only time I ever did that. Cuz it was that egregious. It was egregious and I thought it was a. danger to me and also danger to the. other special agents. Like I felt like I. had a responsibility and I'm like, "If. I'm working with the Queens Narcotics. Narcotics Task Force and they're not. communicating, they were withholding. information, someone's going to get shot." I was. like, "And that's on them, not on me. But I'm also not going to partake.". A lot of people will listen to this and. they'll relate to the feeling of being.

subtly disrespected. on a recurring basis by individuals in. their life, whether it's their romantic. partner, whether it's a colleague at. work, whether it's someone else that. they interact with. And so many people. I've I've seen this in some of the. questions I get sent in, are keen to understand how to deal with. someone that is disrespecting you. You know, cuz. I I guess there's a train of thought. that would say, when they disrespect. you, you kind of argue and engage and. try and shout them down and try and win.

But if you are being subtly disrespected. in your own life by someone, what do you recommend that they do? Okay. Who is it? So, if it's my partner, so I'm married, I have a husband. He's another special agent. If he does something where I feel. disrespected because I care so deeply. about that relationship and the. integrity of that relationship, him, I might argue it. Not to argue, but. because I want to keep a good healthy. relationship. Now, don't get me wrong,

being in a relationship you also let a. lot of things go, right? So, it's it's. again, what am I willing to let go? What's I don't want to say silly, but. what's like really not important? And. where, you know, what's like, "Hey, I. want to address this with you and this. is why." So, for me that takes. hierarchy. Who your partner is, I when. we talked about that before, bar none, that is really such a crux of. how well you're going to do in life. They're either going to raise you up or. they're going to sink you down.

So, that matters. And I will do my best not to be. belligerent when I'm having that. discussion, right? Now, everybody else falls to the side. for me. Cuz because I understand. the value of being with a person and. you're with that person 90% of the time. and that's an investment in that. relationship. But aside from everybody. else, mostly everybody else, I can let. it go. I always look at, are you worth. my time and energy? I'm busy.

So, do I need to stop. and do I need to address you? Okay, so let's play out a scenario. Okay. And in this scenario, I'm going to make. us peers, so we work together, right? We. work together in a call center. This is. actually something that happened to me. when I was in the early sort of phase of. my career where I was working in call. centers. So, I was like answering phones. and doing that kind of thing and selling. things on the phone, etc. And I remember. being sat next to someone who was like. subtly disrespecting me all the time.

And at this point in my life, I wasn't. in any position of authority to do. anything about it. I've actually It's. funny cuz that one instance has. completely shape shaped my leadership. perspective and my. real deep belief that I have a. responsibility as the founder of the. company or CEO. to go in search of and clamp out all. disrespect in an organization that is. happening beneath me because. you're often powerless at work to do. anything about it. And I felt that I. couldn't stop this lady that sat next to.

me disrespecting me because. I wasn't her boss. So, now that I have. the responsibility, it's a big thing for. me that we don't employ [ __ ] and. [ __ ] And there's actually a recent. example where someone was in our. business for a total of. a couple of hours. And actually my. previous company, there was a guy that. walked in during his initiation. He went. like this. and walked off. Day one of his job, he. put both middle fingers up after his. like initiation. We initiation, we. basically ask them questions, ask them. what they're into, who they are. Put. both middle fingers up and walked off.

It was the last time anyone saw him in. the building. And it because it was a it. was a sign of a character issue that. would would lead to a further. disrespect. So, if I'm sat next to you at work, Effie, we're colleagues. And you will you come in in the morning. and I go, "Oh, first time you've been on time." And. then you you do some work and I go, "Not. bad considering your standard.". And then you're in a meeting and you're. talking and I just interrupt you. And you submit a piece of work and I and.

I look at it and I turn my nose up. And you hear me talking [ __ ] about you. behind your back when people aren't. there, me criticizing your work and how. you are and your delivery. How are you going to deal with that. situation? So, I would deal with a specific. situation, not the whole thing. I would. pick a moment where I have tangible. facts and I would say, "Can I speak to. you for a moment?". so we're in a group. We're all on the. calls on in my call center. I'm not going to do in front of other. people. Okay, fine. So, this is what happens. I. This isn't actually what happened in my.

Do you do this? I. No, no, no, no, no. In fact, me, I. didn't do anything. I just wanted the. money. I was trying to just survive. Couldn't. feed myself. So, I'm not going to open. my mouth. But, I'm we're in a call. center and I've disrespected you for a. while now. And then I turn to you and I. go and you you've just come off a call. and I go, "You know what? You should have You. could have done that better. You didn't. close that properly. Every now and you. know, uh next time you you do a call and. you get stuck like that, just speak to. me and I'll take the call off you. Just. tell them that your colleague will. handle it." And I carry on with my day. What are you going to do in that moment?

I'm going to do anything. It also. depends because you said I didn't do. anything. I was trying to feed myself. And that plays a role like, where are. you? Mhm. I think part of it is also is I was. very young and I didn't have the tools. to address that situation. The problem. is the situation made coming to work a. misery. Yeah. And this version of myself, irrespective. of my financial situation, would have. and even today, because even today, okay, I have money, I have security, but. I'm still playing at a certain level. where there's disrespect potential.

Actually, I have a really good example. that I could never share of as someone. that I work with who's extremely. successful. We work on a particular. project together. and I found out that this was happening. and they were basically threatened by me. because. for a variety of reasons, this this is. what I was told by an an intermediary. and I chose a moment. when I heard that they just disrespected. me within a short period of time. and I walked in in front of a in front. of a group of people. and I said to them, I said, "I I heard what you did out. there in the hallway when I wasn't there.

and um in the future, if you want to say. something to me, I'd really appreciate. it you said it to my face instead of. behind my back.". And it's and it's crazy what happened. It's crazy what happened. This really. big, tough, powerful individual. turned into a toddler in front of my. eyes. Oh, what? No, I didn't say and I. left the room. And then it never happened again. But I I think that that's okay, too. But you also came to that place like. is it I think each person has to choose.

and if you choose to do it, you can do. it. Now, the fact that you did in front. of people, but what you did that was. smart is you were able to speak as upset. as you were, you were able to speak and. articulate yourself clearly. Yeah. And it had just happened and you were. able to say what just specifically. happened here. That's the difference cuz sometimes it's. like I feel like you treat me this way. or I think you did this or it seems like. that. Those are very ambiguous. So, if. you're going to confront someone like. you did, you did it the smart way cuz you picked.

a specific moment. You said. specifically, out in the hallway, you. just did this, you said X, Y, and Z. If. you want to say something to me, you. always feel free to come say it to me. That's why I also think it worked and. you're also in a place where you feel. like you can do that. I think that. that's okay, too, but you also took a. risk and you're like uncertainty like. I'll burn this down. Yeah, because on that project, I'm not. the one that's got the power. I can. still be fired from that particular. project. Well, you chose. You're like, let it. burn. Yeah, cuz I don't I don't want to be.

anywhere where I'm miserable. Exactly. You made a But you made a. choice. You're like, let it burn. So, you you at some point understood like. these are there's a consequence here. And it's interesting cuz bullies, they're not. they they flex. They're not very powerful. You know, I had Oh, gosh, we're like. swapping stories here. I had one. scenario where. I inherit a case. You know, every John's gone. He went to. the president's detail. You are now. taking John's case. Okay. So, there were.

some things that were incomplete in. John's case with with regard to. evidence. It was admin stuff. The admin. paperwork for evidence hadn't been. filled out yet. I got the case. I pushed. it to the side. I. worked on it. I would update it, but I. hadn't done the admin thing with it. Fast forward, I'm leaving cuz I just got. bumped to a different position. And so. the new agent that got it, I'm like, "Hey, here's a case." I said, "There's. one thing that I didn't get to do. It's. the admin thing for the evidence." I'm. like, "I can help you go through it.". Blah, blah, blah, blah.

Well, uh the group leader I had at the time. which was a peer, in front of the whole group, one day is. like, "Hey, you didn't do this admin You didn't file. the evidence for whatever." Blah, blah, blah, blah, and he's doing this in front. of everybody. You know, you need to take. care of that, and that's on you. And I. don't care that you inherited the case, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So I'm watching this happen, and I. assure you all I wanted to do was like. reach over and lynch him by the neck, but I didn't. I left. I was pissed.

I let it ride, my anger ride. And later that day, I went and I found him after I calmed. down. And his name was Jeff. I'm like, "Hey, Jeff, come here. Let me talk to you.". And I took him into the stairwell cuz we. had these secure stairwells. I said, "Listen, earlier on you brought up this case. You're 100% right. I didn't finish the. admin paperwork for the evidence. I will. take care of it, and I will help the new. agent do it. I said, "However,

I think if you ever want to address me,". cuz he was very insulting when he did. it. He did it in front of the whole. group to flex. I said, "If you ever want to address me, don't ever do it like that again." I go, "Because I'm addressing you, and I'm. actually giving you more respect than. you showed me in there before by pulling. you into this stairwell.". I said, "So if you want to address me, feel free to pull me to the side and. speak to me. But what you did out there, there's no need. We're peers. And that's it. You may be the group. leader, but there's no need to talk to.

me like that.". I go, "Have the decency to address me. the way and. with the courtesy that I'm giving you, cuz I could have easily tore your head. off in there. And he was a PR? He was a PR {slash} group leader. So, we. were the same, but he happened to be a. group leader, which meant he oversaw me. I said, "So, next time. there's not going to be a next time.". It was immediately, "I'm sorry. You're. right. I'm sorry. I'm sorry." Now, for. that scenario, I wanted to have. long-term good relationships, because. this person was within my squad.

And so, that's why I handled it like. that. Never happened again. So, I guess. like there's different ways to do it. With Jeff, I preserved his dignity, because if I would have shot back, he. would have shot back at me. I would have. shot back at him. And there's a point to. where I'm like, I don't want to look. like an I don't want to sit and fight. and look stupid. I I want to be in control of like how I. manage an environment. And me yelling. back or confronting someone sometimes. may not be it, especially if I think I. can keep myself composed. And in that.

moment, there was no way I was going to. be composed. I think you're right. Now I reflect on. the incident that I described to you. I. don't actually think I was that. composed. I didn't shout. I was very. articulate, looked to them in the eyes. without breaking eye contact. But. actually, if I was really composed, I. would have done what you did, which is I. would have said, "Please, can I have a private chat with. you?" And I actually think it would have. been more effective and would have shown. more of my sort of fortitude to have. that conversation privately. The other. thing that you said, which I thought was. so important in the context of what. we're saying, is you do have to point at.

a specific incident, because these. individuals, they are masters of. gaslighting you. So, if you don't have. specifics, that just happened in that. location, and it made me feel like this, and you said this. If you let it ride. and you come to them with vibes, they. will so easily twist it. you talking about? What do you mean? No, that's not what I meant. That's why you. have to come with very specific stuff. But you know, even if you said you were. pissed when you did it, if you were. still able to articulate yourself, you.

were. I think it's okay to own it. Listen, I'm not saying I've always flown. like. uh up top. Like there's times where I'm. like, I shouldn't have done that or said. it. But I I also run hot and I know. myself. And so, I have to police myself. And and then there's times like we learn. our lesson. It's just I think whatever. you do, just own it. Whether if it was the wrong thing to do, just say, "I won't do that next time.". But I feel like you were okay. You said something a second ago which. about bullies, right? And there's this.

fascinating thing I've come to learn. about bullies and people that are like. this type of disrespect is they're. actually going in search of the weakest. link. And the the incredible thing that. happened in the scenario that I'm. describing is once this individual. realized that I would literally call it. out and I was I was off the table, they. never treated me like that again. But. they moved on. They moved on to someone else that I. work with. And that person, as we sit here today, is thinking of leaving that environment.

because of the same person who was. making the little sni- slight comments. about me is now doing it about them. And I say to this person, I say, "Why. don't you just do what I did?" What she. cuz she saw me confront. I say to "Why. don't you go just do what I did?" And. she just says, "I haven't got I. I don't I don't want conflict.". So, what is she doing actually? She's. becoming. suppressing herself. Yes. Yeah, and she's going to leave something. that she loves doing purely She called. me the other day purely because. this person's making her feel.

um a certain way. I think that that's that's okay, too, though. Like she can It reminds me of. that narcotic story. It's like she's. just like I just don't want to be here. anymore. Yeah. But at the same time, too, if she keeps. going, when you go small, small, small, they go higher, higher. It's You know, speaking of bullies, I'm going to bring it back to crime. When I started interviewing suspects, right? You watch TV shows and in your. head you think these predators, right? are like these like really intimidating, scary predators,

the way they behave, and you think like. I'm going to get these like savages in. the room. Nope. And you know what's interesting? When. you look at the populations of people. being victimized the most, first it's children, then it's women, and then it's elderly. Why? Because they're the easiest to. victimize. So, when you look at predators, they. pick easy prey or what they perceive as. easy prey. They don't want fair fights.

I would sit across people in a room who. did like really horrific crimes against. kids, and you would look at them and you're. like, you? I could eat you for lunch. A lot of times, too, we build up people. in our heads, and we think like they're. these. these like high apex individuals. They're not. They prey on people weaker. than themselves, and why? It makes them. feel. stronger and better, more powerful. Why. do you need to do that? Because you feel. weak. That's why you do that. That's why you.

bully. That's why you push. Because because you feel a void, and you. look to fill that void by taking from. other people, and that's what makes you. feel strong. All these predators, I. never sat across from anybody, to include terrorists, I never sat across anyone and I was just. like, oh, this guy's scary. Never. I'm shocked, actually, as I say it. I. have never to this day sat across. someone where I'm like, ooh. Not once. Everybody I'd walk in and I'm. like, you? In my head, of course, the inside voice.

Like, you did this? And so, I guess like bullies, like I. think sometimes we. unfortunately give them more weight. and gravitas. than they really are. Weak. Weakness all. the way through. With that in mind, how do I stop myself. becoming prey to a predator? You stop acting like prey. So, the one. thing you're not going to be is It. depends who it is. First of all, if it's. personal relationships,

you have to set. the intention of the relationship from. the beginning how you want it to go. So, let's do work. Work is an easy one. I'm. not there to be your friend. I can be. friendly, but I'm not going to be your friend. I'm. not there to be super nice to you or. super sweet or super kind. Like I can be. warm, I can be respectful, I can be. compassionate. I can be those things, but I got to bring the right version of. me to work environment cuz then I just. get. Because then I set the tone of like,

well, is everybody my friend? Or is. everybody my boss? Like, what am I. dealing with here? Like, always keep. that level of professionalism. Always. And I make I make a point to do it. because then it just becomes really. awkward if if people are your friends. Like, can you balance a relationship. like that? You just got to be really. really really really good. But like, don't come in. and like literally like make yourself a. doormat or like overextend. to the point because the more you. overextend, even a good person is going. to be like, "Oh, that's just how she. is." That's how he is.

They get used to being like that. And. people. like being catered to. They like feeling. like they're above. And so now you. create this role dynamic of I'm. subservient and you're here. So, you. want to make sure that no matter how. excited you are to work with someone or. be with someone, that you don't create. this disproportionate thing. Like the. seesaw. You want to keep the seesaw. level. It'll go up and down, but but you. want to make sure that you, because you. will do it. Everybody assesses. everybody. Everybody sizes people up.

They do it intuitively. People meet you, they size you up. Oh, he seems like. this, she seems like that. She seems. like she's going to be this way. Project what you want them to feel. I'm. here, I'm warm, I'm open. I'm happy to. be here again. Thank you for having me. Um. let's talk. But at the same time, you can also think. about how you sit, how you carry. yourself, your voice, your tone. All these things play alone together. I.

know people talk about body language. It. does play a role in the fact that look, something as simple as. when you go to meetings, are you in the meeting and you're like. this, you're small, maybe you got your. phone out. Right? What am I doing? I'm I'm making myself small. My hands. aren't on the table because I don't. think I'm worth putting my hands on the. table. Right? I want to literally make. myself disappear. I'm not going to ask. any questions. I'm going to maybe sit like this with my. thing here. Right? So, this is telling you a story. about me. It is.

So, it's a really subtle way to be like. why don't I sit with purpose? I'm going. to sit like this. I'm going to have my. arms out. I'm going to have my shoulders. back. Something as simple as just my. posture means something. There's a study. actually done. New York City, they put. up cameras years ago and they started. recording people walking in New York. City. Then they took the footage and they. played it to convicted felons in prison. and they said to them, "Who would you. pick as prey?".

They all picked the same people to prey. on. All the same people just by walk. There were three types of walk they. found out. One walk was I'm walking, I'm. sloppy, I'm not paying attention, I'm. just like in my own space. I have really. no deliberate purpose in the way I'm. moving my body. Target. Easy prey. Other easy prey. My. walk is small, I'm more timid.

I'm kind of like. not comfortable. I'm like paying. attention. Easy prey. Those two bar none were. picked. You know who they didn't pick? The walk wasn't too sloppy big. It. wasn't too small. It was right in the. middle. And it's deliberate. I'm in control of. my body. I'm looking around. I'm present. I own my space. That person, I want nothing to do with. Those group of people were not picked to. be targets. So, we exude vibes, energy,

all that stuff. But even this, this tool. that we don't pay attention to, our. body. Think about how you use it to portray. yourself when you're out there. Am I. commanding myself, or am I just not. paying attention at all? So, even subtle. things like that, your voice. It's. called paralinguistics. And I wrote. about it a lot in Becoming Bulletproof. Your your voice. Do I talk like this? Hi, I'm Evy. So nice to meet you. I'm so. glad to be here. Hi, guys. Love it.

Right? What kind of guest am I going to. be? Right? But when I find my true voice, and I own it, I slow down my speech. I bring down my. tone and pitch to my true voice, to at least the most powerful voice, and. I'm grounded, and I take my time, and. I'm also when I speak and I take my. time, I'm letting you know. I deserve to be here. What I'm saying deserves to be heard. And I deserve to take time for you to. listen to me. As opposed to when I speak.

really, really fast, because hey guys, look really quick. I don't want to take. up anybody's time anymore. I know you're. all busy. What I just tell everybody? Don't listen to me. What I'm about to. say isn't really relevant, and you're. more important, and what I'm about to. say really isn't. I just killed it. How. many times do people finish meetings. like that? Why are you saying that? You just told them don't listen to me. These are subtle things that if we just. pay attention to, you don't have to do a. lot. You don't have to do a lot. There's no. magic pill. There's no secret to this,

other than really own yourself, and. think about what am I exuding with my. energy, with my body, with my voice. Even your. voice. your voice captures like so many things. Like your voice it's like um. you have to think of it like over your. your your your time in your life, your. voice captures. the things you've been through with you. were told to be quiet, be a good girl, be a good boy, don't talk loud, don't do. this, don't do that. And you have to. think like over time this voice has.

become a bit mangled because other. people around you were telling you how. to use it. And often we're actually not using our. true voice. It's the voice that we've. sort of somehow manufactured and created. based off of what everybody else told us. it should sound like. And so. you want to pay attention to that. Like. how do I sound? And I even noticed when. I my husband pointed this out cuz he's. kind of got the same background. He said. to me once, he's like, "You ever notice. that when you talk to your mom your.

voice goes high?". And I was like, "It does?" He's like, "Yeah, it does.". Cuz she's my mom. She's an authority. And also she has a. higher voice cuz she talks with a very. high voice. And. I'm like, "You're right." And so even. with my daughter cuz I have a little. one, I try very hard to make sure that I. don't do like the baby babbling voice. and like the high-pitched voice because. I don't want her to grow up. thinking that because she's a girl, she. has to talk like this all the time. Hi. mom.

Because I want her to have a strong. commanding presence. And where she going. to learn that from? Her mom. In fact, even in there are studies done. that even in scenarios where a child. maybe favor the opposite sex parent, they imitate the same sex parent. So my daughter, whether she likes me or not growing up, will imitate my behavior more so. because I'm the one she's learning from. And so I have awareness with that.

Do you think your life would have gone. differently and you would be sat here. now if you spoke differently in the. high-pitched, fast way that. I wouldn't be doing news. Who's going to. listen to anything I say? Hi, everybody. Welcome. Today we had a mass shooting. Do I sound like I know what I'm talking. about? I don't. Even if what I'm saying is. correct, it's Do I believe in the words that I'm. saying? Do I own the words I'm saying?

If I don't believe in them and I don't. sound like I know what I'm talking. about, you won't either. In fact, when. you watch any. any news anchor, like you will hear like. they've got a strong anchored voice. Because even with breaking news, stuff. changes all the time. You know, I remember I was covering the. recent shooting in New Orleans. It's. breaking news. I'm getting information. as it's coming in and I'm I'm doing a. breakdown the best I can with the. information that's coming in. So, but I. still have to convey it in a way where. people can trust and what I'm saying.

But if I don't sound like I believe in. what I'm saying, it's not going to land. This the way you sound has more impact. than the words you actually say. That's a big thing. I didn't I learned. this later on. I learned this. as an agent and then even more so when I. began doing TV because there were times. when I'm like, man, this what I sound. like? I don't know if you've ever had. that. You ever Maybe when you first. started off. of course. where you play yourself and you hear. yourself and you're just like,

ah. Yeah, of course. And then you're like, you know, I need. to fix that. I don't need to sound like that. I need. to sound a certain way. I'm the host of. a podcast. I'm asking these questions. I'm sitting across from these people. I. need to match them to some degree. To show that like, please listen to my. show. I deserve to be here. I'm giving. you good information. I'm credible. We take our time when it comes to hiring. at Flight Story because I fundamentally. believe the success of a business is. directly linked to how good you are at.

hiring. And better hiring starts with. smarter insights. LinkedIn, who's a. sponsor of this podcast, has some of the. strongest hiring data available to help. you identify the best candidates for. your business. Their platform will even. pair you with those who match what. you're looking for, which might lie. outside of the job description and more. in their unique skills and interests. Because these days hiring isn't just. about finding the most qualified person, but also finding the one whose. experience, abilities, and interests. align with your company's mission. And. it goes beyond candidates who are.

applying for jobs, too. In any given. week, 171 million members who aren't. actively seeking jobs are open to new. opportunities. Find your next great hire. on LinkedIn and start today by posting. your job for free just by visiting. linkedin.com/doac. Your hands, you use your hands a lot as. well. Yes, probably cuz I'm Greek. No, but it's it's interesting because. it's part of the delivery when you're. saying something. A second ago you were. going. and you were you were doing slow hand.

movements that are almost illustrating. the point you're making. And it is. persuasive because it almost is adding. another layer of emphasis to what you're. saying. Whereas if your hands were just. tucked under the table, I actually might. think you were less confident or sure in. what you're saying. But because you're. like, again, it goes to what you were. saying, you're taking more space up. So, don't hide your hands. Like just for. anybody listening 101, if you're sitting. in a meeting, don't do it hide your. hands. Don't sit on them. Don't hide. them. Just One, it it doesn't look good. It doesn't send a good message. It sends. like you're kind of insecure. You don't. want to be there. Hands out. I'm here.

I'm present. And yes, with the These are. called illustrators. When you do this. with your hands, it's called. illustrators. Now, there's a couple of. things with illustrators. One, it can make it more interesting to watch. someone speaking when you use an. illustrator. It adds more emphasis. You. said it. It adds another layer aside. from me just sitting still. Right? It engages people and pulls in. the viewer a bit more. It's more. engaging. That's one. The other thing. with illustrators is it can be a.

cultural. cultural thing. I'm Greek, I'm from New. York, so I've got massive problem with. these things. I actually work very hard. to put them away. The other thing that's. actually interesting, which you didn't. ask, but I will volunteer this. information, it's uh another way I would use to tell. if somebody's being truthful or not. Again, everybody is different. Everybody's body. language is different. But when you're. speaking to someone. and they use illustrators when they. normally talk, typically when we see illustrators, it's. truthful.

Right? They're telling you a story. Yesterday, yes, you know, I went out. with my friends. We went and we had. burgers. And then afterward we went to. the store. So when you see somebody. doing that, it is very likely they are. reliving the event and you can see the. body reliving it with them. So when you. see that, positive sign typically, that. they're being truthful. Now, if you're. talking to someone who uses illustrators. and all of a sudden they do this, They put their hands away. during a certain part of the story. So. tell me who you went out and had dinner. with, Evie.

Oh. Um you know, it was just some people. from the office. In that moment, what you going to do say, "Okay, Evie's. used illustrators this whole time.". I shifted the conversation. I asked her. something else. Now her hands went away. Why? That's it. Why? That's lie detection 101. Now, it. doesn't mean I am lying because. everybody lies different. Everybody's. behavior's different. We're not going to. put people in a box cuz that's just. dumb. However, what you're noticing is a.

deviation. Whenever Evie tells stories, she uses her hands. And then for. whatever reason, I asked a question. That question prompted something in Evie. and Evie put her hands away. She did a. shift and now you having caught that, you're going to ask me more questions. You're not going to move on to the next. topic. You're going to find a way to. say, I need to get Evie to talk more. about. who she went out with last night because. clearly something just happened. And it's not because they're they're. going from. their natural state of flow and whatever.

to more calculated and they think. they're like overthinking. Part of with lying, right? If we're just. using lying, or if you ask me something. for whatever reason, let's say I don't. want to tell you who I had dinner with. last night. Right? When I feel that, I'm overwhelmed, I'm inundated. Lying is. hard. Lying is hard. You have to think of what you're saying, how am I going to say it? Is it going to. be believable? I want to move the topic. on. I don't want to get caught cuz who. wants to be a liar? Although everybody. lies. to some degree.

Right? So, it's overwhelming. It's. actually a heavy cognitive load. That's. why. you have That's why one of the things. like it doesn't mean it's the only. thing, but one of the things we were. taught to pay attention to body language. to people. Um like if you read them. well, you'll know what to look for and. look for the deviations cuz everybody is. uniquely different. But you would look. at body language to see what are they. doing with their body because lying is. hard and usually you want to go still. and because you're putting so much of a. cognitive load here, all this stuff goes.

away. So, that free-flowing Evie telling. you the story about I went out, I had. dinner, I had a burger, it was great. goes away the moment you're like, "Well, who'd you go have dinner with, Evie?". And now if in that moment I don't want. to tell you, I'm having that oh [ __ ] factor. What am I going to say? How am I going. to say it? I'm overloaded and so I stop. moving. The body does less in that moment in. this specific scenario. A second ago when you were talking about. the study in New York where they.

examined how people walk and tried to. figure out. who walks like prey. I was I was wondering as you said that, I was thinking, can you fake it? Because. presumably how we walk is quite a. subconscious thing and it comes from as. you said like the things we've been. through in our life and who we've come. to believe that we are. So, after I heard that, do I just go out on. the street and start walking with a bit. more. status and with my shoulders back, or am. I still going to. fail at some point? Yeah, this is I.

think when I remember when I was younger. and I started learning about psychology. and human behavior and stuff, even though I knew the information, I think there was probably 990 other. things that I was getting wrong that. were projecting low value or come. disrespect me or I actually don't have a. high sense of self-esteem that I. couldn't see. So, if I can control this. one little thing, it doesn't necessarily. mean the other 999 things that matter in. nonverbal communication are going to be. aligned if I'm not truly. believing that I'm confident and high.

value in myself. So, fake it till you make it or. do you have to do some inner work? I don't believe in fake it till you make. it. And I actually don't like that term. You know why? There's nothing fake about. me. Or you. I don't need to be a fake version of. myself. But what I can be. is. a more aware version of myself. And. something as simple as just doing one. thing, Stephen, just that one thing it's like, you know what? I'm just not going to. make myself small. When I walk, I'm. going to take up space. That's it.

That's all I'm going to do. I'm not. there to solve like a whole puzzle about. why I am the way I am and why. psychologically I walk this way, but I'm. going to do one small thing that's going. to make one small difference. And it's. going to lessen. slightly. whether somebody decides to prank me or. not. That's it. And so, you know what. happens? Habit. You're going to break. the habit of walking like this and being. invisible to could just creating a very. simple habit of I just walk with my. shoulders back now. Shoulders back,

shoulders back when you go down the. street. In fact, when I started doing. the news, I'd pay attention to my posture and I. would sit and do the news with my. shoulders back. Like in my head, I'm. like shoulders back, shoulders back, shoulders back. Because there were times. where I watched myself, or even during. commercial break, my husband would send. me a text. He's like, "Jesus Christ, he's like, sit up straight. You look. terrible.". He's like, "No one's going to believe. He's like, stop slouching." And I'm. like, "Oh, you're right." It's just what. am I projecting? So, you there are. simple things you can do. So, it's not. one big thing we do over time. I It's. like and and I follow this, too. It's.

like over life, it's like one small. thing for me to change a habit of. something that I do. Just start small, and then conquer that thing, and then move to the next thing, and. then move to the next thing. But, at the. same time, be be kind to yourself. Like, we can't just beat ourselves up. I'm not. this, I'm not that, I'm not confident. Like, that narrative just takes you. down, down, down, down. And you can. literally I'm also not telling you to be. like, "I'm fantastic. I'm great. I'm. this." It's just.

just be here. Just be like somewhere in the middle. You know, and it is speaking of which, it reminds me of. and this is kind of something a little. bit different, but when we talked about. steadiness earlier, like how do you stay. steady? And the one thing I also learned about. steadiness and just. kind of finding that space where you're. you're you're in control, it's something called neutrality. mindset. Actually, the person who. brought it more to my attention, you've.

had her on, Gabrielle Lyon, Dr. Gabrielle Lyon. She's married to a SEAL. Now, Gabrielle, who's actually my doctor, A Navy SEAL. She's married to a Navy SEAL, Dr. Lyon. When uh her book was coming out, she was. asking me all these questions. She's. like, "You know, my book's coming out, you know." And she was asking me. questions. Smart woman, because I had a. book come out, so she's like, "Let me. ask Evy, who's had a book come out, her. opinion on a couple of things." And at. one point, she said to me, "You know, were you nervous about whether it would. perform well or not, or how it would.

do?" And I said, "No.". And she's like, "No?" She's like, "You. weren't worried it wouldn't make this. list or that list?" I was like, "No, I. didn't think about it." And she laughed. I said, "Why are you laughing?" She's. like, "Cuz you're all the same. You, my. husband, all these Navy SEALs.". She's like, "You're all in the middle.". And what she was talking about is. we have a neutrality mindset, which. means. we don't celebrate high highs, but we also don't fall down on low lows.

We're always in the middle. So, going. back to my book, if my book did well, it. would do well because it was a good book. and people liked it. That was it. And if it didn't do well, it didn't resonate. I wasn't tied to the. fact that "Oh my god, it's doing great. It's selling." I didn't celebrate that. Now, you would look at like, "Why. wouldn't you celebrate a high?" I can, but what I start to do is I cultivate a. habit where I'm tied to the external. world, and when the external world is. giving me this this this thing that I.

want, I'm happy. But the flip side is. that when the external world is going to. give me things I don't want, I'm also going to be tethered to that, and I'm going to sink down. But if I'm. in the middle, I don't have high highs, I don't have low lows. I'm always. somewhere here. Neutrality mindset, which means. emotionally, I'm always stable, more. than likely, 99 or 90% of the time, whatever. That's neutrality mindset.

I don't have high highs, I don't have. low lows. Nothing destabilizes me to. that point. How do we get there? How did you get. there? It's just. it's. Well, you don't get It sounds terrible, but. one, you don't get overly excited when. something happens outside. I'm not. saying not to celebrate, but I'm also. not going to be tethered like I can only. be happy now cuz this thing outside of. me happened, because now I'm training myself and my. mind. to be when external things happen, then.

I can be truly truly happy. or when external things happen, I'm. going to be truly truly sad. But if when these external things. happen, they don't pull me all the way. up and they don't pull me all the way. down. I won't have those highs and lows that. other people will have. I can stay here. So I make sure that when something great. is happening. very small example, I won't go out and. tell everybody. I allow it to happen. Right? And then people if people. congratulate me or give me good news, I.

say thank you. You know, but I don't like that to be. the source of my happiness. Cuz it comes from here. Because let's say I did my book and it. bombed. So what? So now according to that. theory, I should what? I should plummet. and be like, oh my god, I'm a failure. I. wrote a book. It was the only chance I. had. It tanked it. Who am I? I'm this. So now my value is tied to what? My. emotional state is tied to what? How. well or not well my book did. That's the.

problem. So the more stressful situations you can. put in, the more places of uncertainty, the more you can manage these highs and. lows the more you're going to live here. And you know what else? Going back to. who is in your inner circle. I don't like to be around people who. lose their [ __ ] when things break bad. Hm. I don't. As steady as I am, they will destabilize. me. They just will. So I do my very best. to try to keep a circle of people around. me. as much as possible of people that I.

know. are steady. So going back to partners, I. happen to have a partner a husband who's. like that. So something can blow up and he'd be. like, all right. Let's go. He's not going to destabilize. So that. is infectious on me. Now can we have. people around us that are. um severely impacted? My mom, love you. mom, sorry, but my mom who's like very. at times can be emotionally impacted by. the outside world, yes. So, I have to. work very hard. to compensate for that. To not let that.

impact me where I go high high and low. lows. It's just awareness, but it's just it's. the external world. the external environment cannot be the. thing that either brings you up or. brings you down. I completely agree. I mean, like. obviously running businesses and stuff. is a prime example where you're just. getting [ __ ] great news or bad news. all the time and even try and move. emotionally with whatever the news is. today in your inbox. would just be I'd be like killed over on.

the floor dead. However, there's so many people that listening. that would say, "Evie, I agree, but. my nervous system just seems to run the. shop. Like I just seem to just get dragged. around by good things and bad things and. I catastrophize when something bad goes. wrong and I just I I I know what you're. saying is true, Evie, but like how do I. get there? What's like what's step one. in becoming that person that isn't swung. up and down on the roller coaster of. life?".

Do you know, like I wish people gave. themselves more credit. Like they they. think sometimes people are like, "I'm. not It's like you are." Like you have so. much more authority and regulation of. yourself than you realize and I. I think sometimes too the narrative out. there is like, "Oh, this happened to. you, it's not your fault. Oh, that. happened to you, it's not your fault. Or. this person did this to you, it's not. your fault." And so, what happens is the. narrative that we hear right now is this. external world is fluctuating you. It's. not your fault. And so, if it's not my. fault, how can I stabilize it? So, that's one thing. So, I'm not saying.

it's your fault, but I'm saying you have. the ability to self-regulate. Please. stop listening to everybody else that's. telling you it's not your fault, it's. out of your hands, it's this, it's that. No, everything always starts and ends. with you. If you can just keep that I it. start and ends with me, one, you're. right there. Two, in those moments when. you start to catastrophize or you start. to feel yourself go that way, stop. Literally just say out loud to yourself, "Stop it.". Stop it. Talk to yourself. Like, interrupt that thought. Just interrupt.

it. Don't let it finish. Even if you're. having a high high with something great. happening, I'm not telling you not to be. happy, but also don't over. sensationalize it. Don't go tell. everybody. because then you're pulling yourself up, you're being tethered by that, right? I'm trying to What I'm saying is don't. be this up-down yo-yo. Cut it. Just be like, "Op. Nope." Like, literally just tell yourself. There's. moments where I like I talk to myself. all the time. I like I'm I'm my voice. And so, if there's moments where I think.

my voice is drowning out, I will say, "Hey, no. This is what we're going to do. now.". Talk yourself through it. It's such a. powerful thing to really just stop the. thoughts, just stop them, and take. ownership, and say, "Stop thinking that. No.". There's this. person who used to tell me that one of. the things that she used to say to. herself was cancel, cancel. If it was a. negative thought or something bad, she. would say to herself, "Cancel, cancel. I'm canceling that thought." Out loud. So, find something. that interrupts it. That's where you.

just start. Like, we're not trying to do. the whole feet. We're just trying to to. break these habitual patterns. And also, sometimes I quite honestly, this. nonsense stuff that we're fed. that really keeps us like just. It just keeps us from being able to take. ownership over ourselves. I think what's really interesting as. well in that cancel, cancel example is. you're almost talking to someone, and. that person is yourself. And as you were. saying that, I was thinking, yeah, I. think the like the fundamental. underlying belief that you demonstrate.

and that that person's demonstrating is. that. they are not their thoughts. It's like. they're just talking to someone else. Whereas, most of us go through our life. thinking that our thoughts are us. So, if my brain starts going, "Oh my god, this is going to go so badly and then. it's going to happen like this and then. I'm going to lose my job." And you think. that's yourself. And you don't think you could have a. conversation with that voice. You know. what I'm saying? But you can interrupt that voice. Like. you have the ability to say stop. I remember speaking to Mo Gawdat on the. podcast and he says that he's named his.

brain Becky so that he can do that. So. that he can kind of. detach from the thoughts. And so he'll. say, "Becky." And have a conversation. with Becky. Which I think is kind of smart, now I. think about it. It's not bad bad way of detaching from. your toxic thoughts. Talking yourself through things is. actually good. Even in, you know, going. back even in training, when we would put. in scenarios, like they would they would. simplify things like in some scenarios. like, "Hey, step one, this. Step two, this. Step three, this." Or they would.

create acronyms like. you know, I'm going to make one up cuz I. can't think of one like stop, target, move, shift. And they would teach you to say that to. yourself. As you're as you're in this stressful. situation like if they created like they. would create scenarios where there would. be explosions, attacks. All right, talk. yourself. And like literally when you we. would do let's say a scenario. in Beltsville and we'd do an ambush on. they created a a system where we they do. ambushes on us. All right, fight. yourself out of it. There to because.

you're so overloaded. with the stress of what's happening. Um. and even though you know it's training, you don't want to look like you don't. want to look bad in front of your peers, you don't want to look like you don't. know what you're doing. You want to do a. good job. And sometimes even though it's. training, the body doesn't know it's. training and it thinks it's real life. There's moments. And literally like you'd be in these. tactical scenarios and you would talk to. yourself in your head. And sometimes you. could do it even out loud. Stop, shift, move, target, move, target, take. You.

know, so I'm giving like a hypothetical. example, but. this ability to talk yourself through. movements is also very powerful thing. It can sh It can stop. like this this this mass amount of like. the muck in your head and kind of clear. it out. So, I I actually learned that in. training and they taught us like just. tactical. uh words, sentences, things to say to. ourselves that would just help have us. habitually move through problems.

Kinesis. Just keep Just keep moving. Keep moving through the problem. There's an element of what you just said. there though that raises another. question, which is there's a reason why. they were doing explosions in training. Because they are trying to. fully simulate and put you through. the real world examples that you're. going to go through so that you develop. some resilience. And I was thinking. then, you know, we can talk about. tactics and tricks and tips to do this. all we like, but. you've literally had to go through it in.

order to be able to deal with it. That's. like the essence of the training you. described. So, is there not an element. of this everything we're saying here. where. unfortunately, you're just going to have. to go through some [ __ ] in life to. develop the thick skin. Cuz even when I think about my career in. business, I think. if I'd heard on a podcast someone. telling me. uh when bad [ __ ] happens, just [ __ ]. you know, like stay in the middle. I don't think it would have been enough. to prepare me for. the reality of the situation when you've.

got. say 500 employees and you got to pay. them all tomorrow and you look at the. bank and it says zero. And you've got. clients emailing you giving you [ __ ] for. this or this, whatever. How you How you. all When I Our company got hacked in the. early days and all of my clients, my. biggest clients in the world, biggest. brands in the world, all got. personalized abusive emails about their. appearance at 3:00 a.m. in the morning. That was apparently from my business. partner's email and it was apparently. meant to go to my peer, but accidentally. got sent to them. And waking up on that. morning as a 23 24-year-old, there's. really no words that can prepare me for.

that. But because I've been through it, I could go through it again. And I. wonder how much of this is actually in. life. You're just going to have to go. through some difficult [ __ ] cuz you've. been through difficult [ __ ]. Well, you have to go through it. There. There's There's no exception. The harder. you work you You're going to work so. hard to avoid it, which actually just. makes you more afraid and weaker. Words like it's just going to happen and. being okay. We mitigate as much as we. can through the circle of people, what. we choose to do, what we choose to.

surround ourselves with. We understand. that, right? The vest, the bulletproof. vest can only cover so much of our body. And then we understand that we are. vulnerable in other areas. And you're. going to have to go through it. Even as. a mom, like one of the things is I want. to give my daughter the best tools so. that she can problem solve. And it's not. just being able to feel the stress, it's being able to when you're dealing. with a scenario like that, you can't just sit and be paralyzed by. it. You're like, I have to respond to. this. And you learn to cope. You learn. coping skills and strategies. You're. learning to problem solve. The only way.

you learn to problem solve is when. you're dealing with a problem. If. everything's problem free, you don't. know how to problem solve. So one of the. things I make sure with my daughter, and. I even though she's still very young, is. I will look at moments where she's. frustrated. Let's say she's trying to. climb onto the bed. I will let her as long as it's safe. I'll let her be frustrated and cry and. scream till she gets up on the bed. I've. seen her do it. I know she can do it. So. I will tell her like I will say, "Work. out the problem." There There's. incremental things we can do in our.

lives. to allow ourselves to learn how to. problem solve. There's no escaping. problems for anyone. There's no escaping. hardship for anybody. There's no. escaping trauma or tragedy for anybody. There just isn't. When you I think when. you come to terms with that, like you're okay. But it's when you can't come to terms. with it and you think like. life's just bad for me. Life's picking. on me. My life is hard. My life is this. My life is that. You You know,

you're not that special. I just did my second TED Talk and I. talked about the six inhibitors that. hold us back, hold people back. It was. based off of all the mentors I did, like. hundreds, like which happened after I. wrote my book when people writing in. And one of the biggest things that holds. people back is the idea that I'm. special. I'm special in that. my problems are special, my pain is. special. I'm so unique. Nobody knows. what I'm going through. So when. everything around me, if I'm that.

special, why I can't figure my stuff out? Because I'm I'm not like everybody else. And when you do that, when you have that. narrative, like that. you think of yourself in that way, you are telling yourself I'm alone in. the world. Cuz I'm special. Nobody can know what I'm going through. or struggling with or dealing with. And it's actually kind of. when I would talk with people and like. you'd give them solutions and. they're like, "No, no, no, but that that.

won't work for me because of this or. this and that." It was always like and I. would tell them I'm like, "I say this. with all the love in my heart, you're. not that special.". If you if you recognize that, then. you're going to realize that you're not. alone in this world going through all. this stuff. This stuff isn't just. happening to you and there's solace. You. know, after 9/11, you know, I survived 9/11. I was one of. the first responders there. I don't even. like to use the word survive. I was. there. I lived through it. People ask me, you know, how did you. deal with the aftermath because, you. know, you're watching thousands of. people die, you almost die yourself.

So just to pause there because that was. an important point for me. Why don't you. like to use the word survive? I like lived through. Why? Survive to me has a negative. connotation. It's not as powerful. I don't like it. To me, like I I lived through. Survive is. this thing happened and I. this is how it feels. Mhm. Cuz I I I don't I'm trying to articulate. it. Feels like I.

I survived through it. It's like no, I I. thrived through that. I lived through that. I thrived through. it. Survive makes me think I barely made it. Which technically I kind of did, but I. don't care. But one of the things that helped me get. through it when people like, you know, we do this trauma like you're watching. truly you're watching I watched thousand. like thousands of people died, people. jumping. And like you can't do anything. Like you. tried. We try I tried. So and then after that we had search, clean up, and rescue efforts.

And I will tell you one of the things. that got me through it to the point. where. I barely dealt with any type of real. aftermath like PTSD or anything like. that. I'm not saying I didn't get. anything, but. but what helped me through is. I wasn't that special. I wasn't alone in. it. When you know you're not alone in the. world, like you can get through. anything. But when you tell yourself. that you are that unique and that what. is happening to you is just happening to.

you, then all your pain is special, all your. problems are special, your trauma is. special. And then nobody can help you cuz it's. just you going through it. How alone is. that? And it's that mental shift. of when you can hear other people's. stories or see what other people are. going through. and then you that helps pull you through. your stuff. I will tell you that I'm not that. special has got me through so much. I can see it in your face as you talk.

And it's making me curious as to why. this is so. personal. Cuz I'm not special. And I think I don't know. I think it's a. detriment when people think that they're. that special. I think it takes you down. There's a story here you're not telling. me I feel like. I don't think it's a story. We all think. we're the sun, right? And everything. moves around us. And when you are on. that space, when you think you're that special,

you self-analyze. You self you go in a lot more. And you would probably say, "Well, that's good, Evie." Is it? Is it really that good for me to sit and. analyze everything going on in my life? Or when I over. analyze, I over assess. I'm overly critiquing. I'm so focused on myself. Do you know. what that actually does? It actually you. have higher rates of anxiety and higher. rates of depression. Because I am so self-focused. Now, I'm. not saying when I say you're not that. special, I don't mean that you're.

arrogant or narcissistic or. self-absorbed. I mean that you are so. self-focused that the outside world. fades, and it's just you and whatever it. is you're dealing with. How can you get out of that? That's a. very hard head space to get out of. Why do they stay in that space, in your. opinion? I don't think that they realize that. they're in that space. I they're not. listening. Like sometimes you can even talk to. people, they're not listening to you. Why don't they want to listen? Like why. aren't they listening? I I.

Because they don't think anything's. wrong. Or sometimes they'll look to you. and be like, "Oh, you're you're you. Like you don't know what I'm going. through." Or you don't realize Here's. the thing, you and I talking about stuff. from an. from a place where we're trying to. understand it objectively. We're looking to. not live that way. Where we're looking to understand it, and so we can share it with others. But. the only people that are going to. receive it are the people that watch. this podcast and want to.

And even then, when they watch this, they're going to pick and choose the. parts. that work for them, or the parts of this. podcast that fit the narrative that they. tell themselves. Yes. And I was reading something over. Christmas, which is really fun to mine, and I think it's part of why I'm so. interested in this subject. It was. called The Courage to Be Disliked. And in the opening chapter of the book,

it confronts this It's this kid. basically arguing with this philosopher. And the kid is saying to the philosopher. kind of exactly what we've said. No, I'm a victim of my life, the things. that happened to me, my trauma, this is. the way that I am, and I don't believe I. can change. And the philosopher is. making the case to the kid that you can. in fact change. And really the like. insight, the thing the philosopher ends. up saying to this kid, which spun my. brain for a while, and it's still. spinning my brain a little bit, is this. idea that. what happened to us doesn't determine. our lives, but.

we use what happened to us. to achieve a goal that we have today. Now, to put this into like a practical. real example, if I am a kid that is 27 years old, and. I'm still in my mom's basement, and I'm. not going out there and getting a job, I might say, "Yeah, I want a job." But. actually being in my mom's basement. is actually serving me in some way. And. it might seem to be self-destructive to. someone looking in, but.

my mom's bringing me my food. They finally show me attention. If I. change, I lose the sympathy. If I. change, I lose the attention. And. actually this attention has gotten a. little bit addictive. This sympathy, this place of victimhood has gotten a. little bit addictive to me in a way that. I don't even know, in a way that's. actually self-destructive in the near. term. and the long term, but. at some subconscious level, I'm actually. like addicted to my pain and suffering.

And it is funny cuz when I was So I I. read the book, and then I started. writing, cuz I like to read things and. then try to write them into my own like. language, and. I started thinking about someone in my. own life, and uh. it's just I. I finally figured out this individual in. my life that's been in my life for a. long time who, when you look at the. actions, you go, "They're ruining their. own life." But when you dig deeper into. their identity, being a heroic victim. is everything to them. And actually, if I this person walked. into this room now and introduced.

themselves, it would take 60 seconds for. them to get to a story of how they've. been how hard done by and how they've. overcome it. But this means that help, aid, good decisions have had to always. be secondary to protecting this. narrative that they're a victim. And. actually, sorry to be on a bit of a rant. here, at one point they were a victim. At one point, objectively, they went. through some really horrific, horrible. things. But the predator's gone now. So now they're looking for a predator. And it's ruined their entire life. It's.

ruined their home, their family, their. financial financials, because even when. good things come come by, good people. come by, they find a way to make this. person a predator, and they find a way. to make them the heroic victim. And I so it really shifted my brain. about like even my own trauma and the. narratives and this hero story I tell. about myself. I'm like, "Maybe I'm using. what happened to me to serve a. a goal I have today of projecting to the. world that I am. fill in the gap, whatever gives me. validation and.

you know, reinforcement from people. So, anyway. And you know, it reminds me a little bit. of um. histrionic disorder. or um. where you pretend you're sick. Uh it's like one of the disorders, you. pretend either you're sick. or your child is sick. Um because when you do that, you get a. lot of attention. And so, if I'm a victim of something or I'm. going through something, are you okay? Are you all right? Do you need.

something? And it does cultivate this attention, whereas every everything's okay, that all that goes away. And so, I I think all of it it's. people I think it's so many different. things. People get comfortable. They don't want to get out of it. They. don't think anything is wrong. It serves. them. Nothing's wrong with my life. Who. are you to tell me? It's like all these. different layers. And and when it's people close to us. it's hard. And I just have surrendered. that.

Two things. Who am I to tell somebody else how to. live? So, if they think that that's the way. their life needs to be, I do have a. little bit I'm not that special. So, who. am I to tell you. that you should live this way? There's a little bit of or a lot of. rather. let people live how they want to live. It reminds me of what you were saying. earlier about identity. And I was. thinking of something I read recently. that says what's the effective people. would go to great lengths to destroy. things including themselves before they.

dare edit their own identity. There's real element of truth in that. You're talking about identity and. instrumental mindsets. And. I wonder if there's a real risk to. developing an identity cuz you've got an. identity now. Secret Service agent, NYPD, strong. woman, doesn't take [ __ ] says it how it is. Well, you know, so in the context of. identity, the identity mindset if we go back, it's. it's that I'm special mindset.

I'm in an emotional state, I'm special. That's like identity mindset. That's how. you know when you're talking to someone. if they're instrumental or identity. If. they're instrumental, they're task. oriented, they're moving, they're trying. to solve problems. If they're identity, they're stuck, they're emotional, I. can't believe this, I can't believe this. happening to me. So, with that, when you. can figure out what mindset somebody is. in, then you can talk to them. But you talk to them in the mindset that. they're in. If somebody is instrumental,

I'm going to know this is a person. that's just like, "Tell me what to do. Just get to the point. I just wanted. this, this, and this, and this. There's. no feelings, there's no stuff involved, there's no emotions." If somebody's. identity, right? They are It's about them, it's how it's. affecting them. Typically again, when. we're very self-focused, uh higher. depression, higher anxiety, cuz we're. over-analyzing things, we're in an. emotional state. So, when someone's. there, it's good for you to know because. you know in that moment. they're not listening to what I'm.

saying. They are stuck in their space. Now, if I'm looking to progress the. conversation, let's say they work for. me, I'm going to sit and listen to them, let them offload to a point to get them. where I need them to be or to get them. to get to. um this instruction this instrumental. space. Like a an agency like the US. Secret Service, it was very. instrumental. Nobody wants to hear you complaining, get it done, fix this, do this, because. they didn't really have the luxury of. being like that, cuz if you were like.

that, people die. It's just like you got to you got to. move on. But if your identity and where it's like. you're really wanting other people to. understand you, I'm not saying that we. don't visit identity land once in a. while, but you can it's not a great place to. live either. Because you're so self-focused that you. can't function. It's. it's me, me, me, me, me. But if you can master this, which you. can easily do when you talk to people, you'll know that person's instrumental,

they just need X, Y, and Z. That. person's identity. Your friend is. identity. The thing with them is they're identity. almost all the time. Yeah. That's when it becomes a problem. And I've got great. empathy and sympathy because. defense can become someone's. personality, especially if at a younger. age their defense was their survival. Do you know what's interesting?

Um, and the Harvard Business Review did. a a a study on this. They wrote about. this. Do you know that the more you go. through, the less empathy you have? So, you would think, let's say you've. been through your hardships, you would think that because you've been. through that stuff, you would have more. empathy. But, as you rise through the. ranks, you actually have less empathy. Because you've been through it, you've. overcome it, and you kind of look at. people like, "Can you please get it. together?". So.

Yes. And if you think about it, it makes. sense. Because it's like, "Get through this. You I've gotten. through this." Whereas, if you're. dealing with someone who hasn't gone. through it, or is in the lower. uh ranks at work, uh. they've got more empathy. Cuz also think. of it, too, as you're going up in. business, you're dealing with so many. more people. You don't have the. cognitive space or load to deal with. everybody's stuff. So, sometimes when. people come to me, "My boss, my boss.".

And my my response is, "Do you know how. much your boss is probably juggling?". It's not that they're a jerk. They're. instrumental. They're just trying to get. stuff done. And you, being where you are, kind of. lower in the hierarchy, you're not. dealing with as much, trying to juggle. as much, and so you're looking for more. empathy. You have more space, more time. This person's up here. They're trying to. keep that ship from sinking. So, that's where a lot of people. sometimes get lost with their. supervisors. So, it's interesting, too, because,

you know, I even noticed that for. myself, I try to have empathy, but. there's moments where you're like, "Man, I'm. you know, it it can be you want to. control it on the inside, but be like, there's times where you're like, "Can we. please just get it together?" Like, it's. it's not that big of a deal. I've invested more than a million pounds. into this company, Perfect Ted, and. they're also a sponsor of this podcast. I switched over to using matcha as my. dominant energy source, and that's where. Perfect Ted comes in. They have the. matcha powders, they have the matcha.

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who's been through it all, staying. compliant is getting more critical than. ever, and more complicated, I have to. say. And that is where Vanta comes in, who is a sponsor of this podcast. Vanta. takes the pain out of security. compliance, automating the tedious but. essential process of proving your. business is secure across over 35. frameworks like SOC 2, ISO 27001. Centralize your workflows, answer. security questions up to five times. faster, and protect your business. without losing focus on growth. And this. is really a critical part of this. A new.

IDC white paper found that companies. using Vanta save over $535,000. a year, and it pays for itself in just 3. months. For a limited time, my community. gets $1,000 off Vantr at. vanta.com/steven. That's v a n t a .com/steven for $1,000. off. On our previous conversation, funnily. enough, the most replayed moment in the. conversation was where you talk about. the dangers of victimhood.

Stop, really? Yes. Yeah, the most replayed moment. Wow. I was quite surprised. I think people don't I I I think most. people don't want to be there anymore. You know, because it's not working out. for them. It's not. That's why. I think most people, most. people, they're trying really hard. Most people who will watch this podcast. or or watch things similar to this, they're really trying hard. And they're. trying to to do better. I do believe.

that. And I think that's why. a moment like that, because they're. like, "I don't want to be here anymore. Just help me get get the [ __ ] out.". You know, I respect that. Because. they're trying. Like they're trying really hard as. opposed to somebody who's just like, "I'm checked out." And that really. speaks to people just saying like, "I. know this isn't working. This isn't. where I want to live. This isn't where I. want to be. And it it it's it's not. getting me ahead in life." You know, I. always again, I live by this credence of. if I go tomorrow, am I okay to go?

And if it always set things right for. me. If you've lived in a way where you're. like, "I've done or tried to do these. things,". then you've lived a full life. But being a victim prevents you from. being from living a full life. If everyone is hurting you, if everyone's out to get you, if. everyone's doing something to you, if. everybody is sliding you, if if this. person and that person, how are you. living a full life if you're fighting. everybody or pissed off at everybody.

because they disrespected you, they're. not giving you what you need, they. didn't validate this, validate that, how. will you ever get anything done? How. will you ever be instrumental? It doesn't mean you need to be a CEO or. a secret service agent. Doesn't mean you. need to be anything like that. It It's. whatever your journey is, like how will. you ever achieve that. if you're so easily distracted by all. this nonsense? Who says you have to have respect by. everybody? It's nice. I I welcome it.

But I'm not always going to get respect. I can sit and check every single box. off. I'll be respectful to you. I'll be. kind to you. I'll hand my things in on. time. I'll show up on time. I'll do all. these things. Check all those boxes. There are still no guarantees you'll. give it to me. I know. I was a former. cop former agent. I don't always get it. I was like, I hope I get it. But I don't. need it. But we tell people, you need. this. Who says who? Who says I need I need everybody's. respect? Who? And who am I to demand it? Who says I need everybody to like me?

I don't want people to dislike me. I'm. not going to do things to make people. dislike me. But I'm also like, I can't navigate my. ship like that. And then at the same. time, if you stop and think about it, when people like, oh, get everyone to. like you. Be charismatic. Pause. Who are you making that about? You. You don't really care about the other. person. It's me. I want you to like me. I want you to think I'm charismatic. Comes back to me. Me, me, me, me, me. How about there's a little less me and.

more of how can I be of service to this. person? How can I help this person? How. can I be more generous generous others? How can I give more instead of take so. that I can feel fulfilled? It's all. about me and my fulfillment, my. identity. Where am I going? Me, me, me. I think we need a little less of that. And how about us, us, us? How about how. can I help other people? How can I be of. service? How can I be genuine? And not. rig this whole thing. Give me tips so. everybody likes me. Give me tips I'm the. smartest person in the the the room. If.

I'm the smartest person in the room, Stephen, I'm I'm in trouble. I want to. be the biggest dummy. Like cuz I'm not learning anything from. other people. And who might I think I'm. all this Why Why would you want that? You know, I you see this marketing stuff. come up and we feed people garbage. And. then we wonder why everybody's confused, why everybody has a void. Because we're telling them you need. more, you need more. You are enough. You are steady, you are good. Stop. listening to all that.

Be a genuine human being. Try to do the. right thing by people. Be careful. Cuz not everyone's out. to do the best thing for you cuz people. in pursuit of their own self-interest, they will screw you over and that's. okay. Just don't be shocked when it. happens. It happens. But move through steady. and focus on being of service to others. I'm everything. Like bring it back. And. it's like stop thinking about you. I. promise you you will have a better life.

It'll be calmer, it'll be quiet, you'll. be less depressed, less anxious, less. just because it's not all you. You're in it with everybody else. There's something really interesting I. mean, there's so many interesting things. you said there. I mean, the. two kind of highlight points for me were. this idea of. play the long game of just trying to. serve other people. and you'll achieve your objectives. versus trying to do the short-term game. of maybe being nice to you and caring. too much about how you appear, which.

might help you maybe in the moment, but. it's almost a form of long-term. sabotage. And I guess this brings me to. the question, which is like. should we try and make people. like us? No. Cuz it's fake. Cuz it's manipulation. That's why I'm Who am I doing it for? If I'm trying to get you to like me, is. that who you want? Or do you want the. person who's going to come on this. podcast and just have a genuine. conversation and do her best to give you. some valuable information to help.

people. Who do you want? You want me to. be like, I hope Steven likes me. I hope. he thinks I'm smart. I hope Steven. thinks I'm a good guest. I hope Steven. invites me back. Is that what you want? And who did I. just make all that about? Do I give a. [ __ ] about you and your podcast? No. Clearly, I just care about Evie. That's the problem. Because I'm. manipulating you to fulfill myself. That's where it goes wrong. If somebody likes you, it'll be genuine. We don't manufacture it. It's.

disingenuous. People feel it. I'm trying to be charming and charisma. charismatic. First of all, major red. flag for narcissistic personality. disorder, number one. Really? Sure. A lot of them are. In fact, when you see that, always ask. yourself, why is What is motivating this. person? I always think like, what is motivating. this person? So, if I sit I sit across. from you, what's motivating you is you. want to do a good podcast. You have. millions of people who listen. You want.

to give them good content. Period, the. end. You You seem to be a big fan of being. authentic, right? As a person. I just want to be as genuine, and I. don't want to be a [ __ ] artist. Nobody wants to be bullshitted. I've. experienced it, nobody likes it. And. it's not being authentic, it's just. being. genuine. Because also, like you you. can't just walk into a room and be like, I'm going to be me, and whoever likes. it, likes it. Like, good luck with that, right? You want to adapt to the.

environment and to people you you're. with and what mindset that they have and. talking to them in a way that they. understand, not you. So, adapt That's a bit more adaptability. and and connecting with people. Even. when I talk to businesses, a lot of. times, one of the big things is. and they're learning this A lot of. businesses are moving away from being. transactional, making the sale, and just trying to get these short-term. goals. And what they're shifting toward, which is smart, is long-term. relationships with people.

Because if you have a long-term. relationship with a client, and they genuinely like you, not because. you charmed them or you tricked them, but because they genuinely like you, they're genuinely going to want to stay. with you, and they're not going to want. to leave and go do business somewhere. else. That's why. being genuine works. And you can be. genuine and disagree with someone, too. That holds better. People. People vibe other people quite a bit.

And they feel it. And if they feel your. nonsense, and they feel like you're. tricking them or, you know, using tactics, even when I. Sometimes I give keynotes and. and I'll tell them, I'm like, "I'm not. here to give you tips, tricks, or. techniques. I'm not here for that." I was like, "Can. I ask you a question? Do you like it. when people use techniques on you?". No. Do you like it when people use tricks on. you? No. So, why would you do that?

And why would you think that's going to. take you places? It'll take you somewhere short-term. Long-term, people are going to drop you. I was um watching your BBC Maestro. recording, which by the way is. fantastic, and I highly recommend. anybody who hasn't seen it to go and. check it out. Um it's basically like a. It takes everything you're saying, and. it kind of turns it into a bit of a. course. And there was a line you said in it. which I thought was quite interesting, which is, "I wish you as much rejection. as possible, because that will increase. your self-confidence.".

Are you also saying that in the BBC. Maestro piece that confidence is the. number one thing you get asked about? I wish you as much rejection as. possible. That kind of goes back to what we were. saying earlier about how. like going through difficult [ __ ] is um. the best way to build a thicker skin, but. who on earth wants to go through. rejection? Who Who on earth What kind of psychopath. is going to. self-elect to go through rejection? A person who wants to build their.

resilience. Because when you deal with it So. the BBC My Show course is the art of. influence, how to influence others. So. going back to. the ethos of that course was. And I And And I say it at the beginning, I'm not here to give you tips, tricks, or techniques. Because that's not going to influence. people. We're not trying to trick people. or manipulate people to get things out. of them, because that's not going to. help anybody in the long term. It won't. help you in the long term. Influence is.

having the ability to have people to. want to be around us, to have people to. want to work with us, to have people who. to want to talk to us. That's what influence is, genuine. influence, and like how we push that out. there. Also, in in the class where I talk about. rejection, cuz we split it up into. certain parts, and one of the parts was. your ability to understand yourself, kind of like. you can't influence other people if you. don't understand yourself. And so part.

of that is how resilient are you? How. steady are you? And you don't build. those things unless you deal with. rejection. Unless you deal with people. pushing back. Maybe be a psychopath and. embrace the things that everybody else. is too terrified to embrace. Everyone's. so scared of being rejected, so why. don't you be the deviant? Don't be like. everybody else and be like, "I'm ready. for it. I'm good with it." Because the. more you deal with it, the better you.

are at dealing with it. And you're going. to get it anyway. On that point of better understanding. yourself, the the other thing I found. was this thing you talk about, which is. the animal wheel, which is a framework. that helps people understand themselves. by finding out what their communication. style is. I'll put this animal wheel on the screen. for people that are watching on video. But for people that can't see cuz. they're listening on Spotify or Apple or. somewhere else, what can you explain to. me what this animal wheel is? So that was created by researchers Dr. Lawrence and Emily Allison. They're. actually in the UK. And they created a.

way to break behavior down behavior. of people. They actually watched. thousands of hours of interview tapes, law enforcement, intelligence, and they. were coding people's behavior. So. basically they were like, what behavior. is this person? So there's two important. things. One is we don't label people, we. label behavior. You label behavior. because people change. People are fluid. For the most part people are fluid. So I. need to look at who do I have across. from me in this moment. So how they.

identified behavior of people, they gave. they gave them four animal archetypes. Lion, monkey, mouse, T-Rex. Lion is someone who's in charge, setting. the agenda, I'm in control. That's lion. When you have your meetings with your. team and you're the one talking and your. team's sitting listening, you're a lion. in that moment. He's in charge, setting. the agenda. Mouse. is a person who is.

patient, looking to learn. They're. trying to get information. They're. eager, they're humble, seeking guidance. It can be the people on your team who. are sitting quietly because they're. trying to learn. Probably in some sense. right now you and I switch back and. forth. from lion and then our viewers, they're. all mouse. They're all here humble. seeking guidance. What can I learn? That's that's that, but. it's fluid. Now a person who is monkey, monkey is an animal where. you're social, you're warm, you're.

talking to people. Hi, how are you? Good. How are you? That's what that is, right? And then. they're probably going to be that back. to you, right? Bad monkey, which you. probably you probably get a lot is, "Hey. Steve, I got a great idea. Can I just. share it with you? Hey, let me just. pitch you something real quick." That's. pleading, that's desperate, like that's. really wanting something. Now, the other. animal is T-Rex. T-Rex, which is. something I tend to lean a little bit. more towards, which I work very hard not. to be, but that's a person who is. direct, frank, and forthright. It's also.

person who's like sounds just like the. animal. You're more ready to fight. Like. something happens and you're like, "Let's go.". There's a good version of that, there's. a bad version of that. All of these have. a good and bad version. But that's. T-Rex. The key to people is not for you. to dominate. The key to people is for. you to identify the person in front of. you in that moment and then adapt to. that behavior. So if I've got, for. example, if you're a lion. and I'm trying to be lion, we're both.

competing. Nothing's going to happen. Like you're going to be talking and I'm. going to be trying to talk over you. It doesn't work. But. if I see, "Okay, right now Steven's. lion. He's the one talking. He's guiding. the conversation. He's doing this. meeting." I'm going to go mouse. I'm. going to be humble seeking guidance. "Yes, Steven, I'm listening. I want to. learn." So the wheel actually helps you. identify who you have in front and then. where do you go based on what you have. in front? Now, if I'm dealing with. someone who's monkey, I go to this. event. You're going to this event.

People are talking to you. When you have monkey, you also display. monkey, which is warm, social, respectful. However, you want to be. aware of like when people are the bad. version of that, which is they're trying. to sell you something, they want. something from from you. You maintain that warm, social, respectful, but you realize I've got bad. monkey in front of me. I need to keep. distance. And T-Rex is if I've got. someone who's T-Rex. uh. it just means being direct, frank, and. forthright. But it also teaches you how to deal with. another T-Rex.

That story you told me earlier, that guy. that you checked. Mhm. that you had checked, he was being. T-Rex. He was attacking you. Behind your back, he's still attacking. you cuz you can attack somebody not to. their face, but behind their back. You. gossip, you slander, you hurt their. reputation. That's T-Rex. That's bad. T-Rex, by the way. So, you had bad. T-Rex. And then you came in. I don't think you were bad T-Rex. You. came in as good T-Rex, but you were. frank, forthright, and direct. You said, "Hey, I heard about that stuff you just.

said outside to this person. If you have. something to say, please say it to me.". You actually did good T-Rex. You addressed them. And what happens is. when you have T-Rex, you have to be T-Rex, too. You just can't be bad T-Rex. where you're patronizing, sarcastic, and. insulting people. But you come in and you be direct, frank, and forthright and you address. the person. It's okay to address people. It's okay not to let stuff slide. so long as you are regulating your.

behavior. But the way you do this is these animals. help you realize who do I have in front. of me. It also helps you realize who am. I more. I know when I see this, I'm. T-Rex, hands down. I have to work on it. But some people when we talked about. people who are very subservient or weak. or dismissive or avoidant, for them, they're mouse. Bad mouse. And when you realize like I go mouse a. lot, then that tells you, "You know. what? I need to be a little bit more. lion in my life.".

So, on this wheel, the reason why it's a. wheel is because. the behavior that I'm getting is on the. outside and the response that I should. give them is the thing on the inside. Is that Is that right? There's four animals. Each animal has a. good version and a bad version. Good version lion is. I'm in charge. I'm setting the agenda. I'm a boss who's really just trying to. guide and lead his team. Okay. Bad version of lion, which is outside. that outer perimeter. Okay. Dogmatic, demanding, rigid. This is the.

way I want it. This is the way it's. going to be done because I want it like. this. So, how do I know. using this wheel which response I should. give? So, you're telling me that on the outside of. the wheel is the bad version of that. animal, and on the inside of the wheel. is the good version of that animal. How do I find which response to give. based on the behavior? So, first you always want to stay in the. good wheel. You always want to stay. as a good animal. Like, you don't want. people to pull you out. And that's where. it talks about self-regulation cuz it's.

very easy for people to pull you into. their. bad wheel, their bad animal. Okay. And so, that's one one. You should. always want to stay in that center part. Okay? So, if I've got. It works two ways. If I've got lion in. front of me, I have to be mouse. Because. the conversation won't work. We'll flip. So, if I've got lion in front of me, you're you're you're you're you're. setting the agenda, you're controlling. the conversation. I have to allow it to. happen to you. Here's why. If I try to.

talk or cut you off, you're not. listening. In fact, it's going to piss. you off even more. In fact, wait, there was a. a big um. beverage company. I won't say which, a. coffee company, very well-known one. They came to me and said, "We have a. problem with clients. They come in, we give them the wrong. version of what they asked for, and they. sometimes they lose their mind. They had. one client that came in, customer, and. he they like the the manager said, "I. thought they were going to assault the. person behind the register. Um we.

actually fixed their drink, and they were still just being very. belligerent. Now, according to that. wheel, that person was T-Rex. T-Rex, so attacking. Punitive. Sarcastic. Aggressive. And they would flow back and. forth between T-Rex and lion cuz they. were trying to control the conversation. They were like, "We fixed the order, we. apologized, but it kept escalating. What. did I do What did we do wrong? What they. did wrong was they kept interrupting. and trying to stop the behavior of that.

person. That person was in this. aggressive state, lion {slash} T-Rex, and when you have somebody there. you have to let them go. Because by interrupting the person and. telling him, "Calm down. We're going to. this." What does that do? It aggravates. people more. Let me vent. Let me say. what I need to say. One of the ways you deal with that kind. of behavior is let them go. So long as. you're not in danger or someone's trying. to hurt you. let it go. When they are done.

then you can talk, but they're not. listening to you. That's why the wheel. helps cuz if I've got a lion and he's. trying to control he's being demand. dogmatic trying to control the. conversation, then I come in and say, "Hey, look calm down. I got you another. drink." I'm not letting you talk. I'm. competing with you. It doesn't work. That's why it escalates. Let people go. Be lion Be mouse. It's hard to be mouse cuz people's ego. won't let them be mouse. It's hard to sit there and take it, but.

if you can put your ego to the side, which you should put to the side. In. fact, we had a saying in the interview. room, "Check your ego at the door.". Because if you bring your ego in, you're. done. So you want to put yourself aside and be. able to manage the behavior. But that requires your your ability to. be like, "I know what I'm seeing." And. this it always goes back to I don't need. to address every little thing because I. feel I'm being slighted. I see what I have. I've got a lion in. front of me. Let him finish or her.

I'm going to be mouse. I'm going to sit. and listen. Humble seeking guidance. And. then. when they're done, now I talk. Because. also they're ready to listen, but when. you keep interrupting people, they're. not ready to hear you. I mean, you see that a lot with um bad. cops, right? So they they pull someone. to arrest them and the person becomes a. T-Rex that they're trying to arrest. They start insulting them and then the. the cop ends up getting a disciplinary. case because they react like a T-Rex. They take the bait. If the person's calling you a F Y Z,

whatever, they then start doing it back. and elbowing them and getting. aggressive. And then you see these other. examples of really exceptional police. where they're being verbally insulted. and they have total composure. Yeah. And it's like they're. unphased. It's cuz they're ego and they really try. hard. In the US, in the UK, you have a. national police force. That means it's. one hiring process, one police. commissioner, you know, one one person. of authority. In the United States, there's 17,000 police depart- law. enforcement entities. They all have.

their own leader. The problem is their. training is different. So, for example, when I went into the NYPD, they gave me. a psychology test to take. Uh it's it's. something it's something similar if not. the MMPI-2, which is the Minnesota. Multiphasic Personality Inventory. What. they tried to see is what behaviors I. have. Am I narcissistic? Am I. hypochondriac? What issues are going on. within me to avoid scenarios like that. You have to be steady because people are. going to pull you into their nonsense.

People. you can't sit there in law enforcement. and be baited. If you get baited, it's a. problem. You shouldn't be wearing the. uniform, you shouldn't be wearing the. badge. I'm not saying you sit need to. sit there and be hurt by someone or take. physical abuse, but you need to be able. to control your mouth and your behavior. Even if your mouth. is. You said something earlier which I think. is important point of nuance here, which. is it doesn't mean you have to be. passive, it just means that when you as. you said, decide to burn it down, you're.

doing it intentionally, not being. controlled by some emotional puppet. master. If you're in law enforcement, and I was. like nobody was No First of all, nobody's happy to to you. Fireman, fire-. they're happy to see them. No one's. happy to see law enforcement. I've never. been greeted in the interview room or. even anywhere out there where they're. like, "Hey, special agent. Come on in. So glad you're here." They're not happy. to see you because A, somebody's getting. arrested. B, something bad happened. C, you're about to arrest somebody that. they care about. It's It's It's all bad.

news. So, you have to go in there. understanding that. But, if you're. offended, you're looking to be. respected, that's that badge is not for. that. You're there to be a peacekeeper and you. have to manage your behavior. I remember. NYPD Academy, we they would take us to. the FDR Highway. and it would the FDR runs around the. East Side of Manhattan by the East. River. And sometimes they take us they. take you there and we'd go running. And. they'd have us run like long distances. People are driving by you doing 50-60. mph. When I say they're blowing past.

you, they're blowing past you. And this. was pre-9/11 when I was going through. the academy. They're spitting on you or. trying to spit on you, cursing you, giving you the finger, calling you a. pig, calling you all sorts of names. So, the first time I experienced this, I'm. young. We're running and somebody hollered. something at us or said something. I. actually stopped running and turned. around and started yelling back. And my instructor, the PT instructor, the police officer, grabbed me. He's. like, "You don't do that.".

He's like, "This isn't This isn't for. you. if you're going to do that. You have to manage yourself because when. you go out onto the street, people will. hate you. And if you can't control. yourself, you're not going to be able to. manage this.". And that was the first time I learned. like that is not the way you earn. respect. You need to manage yourself. So, controlling other starts with. self-control. Yeah. Also, what does that say about me that. I'm quick to respond to something like. that? In the study you referenced about the.

animals, I read that the interviewers. who are most successful at getting. information were able to switch between. different communication styles. Interviewers who were most successful. understood the suspect's communication. style as well as their own. And it made. me think, to be successful, do I then. need to be able to adopt all of these. communication styles context dependent? Because I can think of a lot of a lot of. people in my life that basically don't. have a lion or a T-Rex in them. They. just give mouse everywhere they go. I.

can think of some people who I could. just never imagine a world where they. were. demanding, dogmatic, rigid, in charge, guiding, leading, frank, forthright, direct, attacking, sarcastic. They are. just like, "Nice, nice.". Okay. So, when you're dealing with them, you're going to look at. if we're going to use the animals. I mean, more how do those people be. successful? If I'm If. They're not. They're not successful? They're going to have a hard time. Because they've made themselves They've. suppressed themselves so much for.

whatever reason, they're they can't lead. No one. They're I'm going to tell you this, there's nothing wrong with mouse. Actually, if you had to default to any. one of those animals, mouse would be it. Mouse is king. I love mice. I I think everybody loves. mice. They're the most likable people. They are. And monkeys, but. They Yes, but mouse is good because. you're humble seeking guidance. Um it. means that you're saying less, it means. you're listening, you're also gathering. information. So, if I'm trying to figure. Steven out,

I'm going to get more information from. Steven when I'm not talking. I'm going. to ask good questions. Rather than me. talking. A lot of people think I need to. be lion, in charge, setting the agenda. You can be, and there's times for that. Like, if you're a leader, you need to be. lion from time to time. You do. But. mouse overall is the one who gets the. most. It's the one who gets the most. information. So long as you're good. mouse. Good mouse is humble, seeking. guidance. Steven, tell me what you're. looking for in a partnership. Okay. Help.

me understand what matters to you most. And I shut the [ __ ] up. And I'm going to. let Steven show me everything he cares. about, his values, his beliefs. I'm. going to understand Steven, and I'm. going to learn a lot about him so that I. can speak more intelligently to Steven. about what Steven cares about, not what. I care about, but you care about. However, you also don't want to be the bad. version of mouse, and that's where. it's weak, submissive, avoidant. And this is where.

you become that, and this is where. people prey and victimize you. I can be. mouse. I can ask questions, I can learn, but I. want to make sure that I don't cross. over to the malignant part of that, which is I'm so conflict-averse and so. afraid of it that I will make myself. completely small to the point where. other people will just steamroll me. Can mice be leaders? Cuz I know some. mice. And I. if I was employing those people, I would.

absolutely never make. someone a leader who hasn't got a little. bit of lion in them. It would be irresponsible. It would. frankly be irresponsible. I would be. unfair on them, because they're going to be challenged. by the people that they are leading. And. in order for them to withstand those. challenges in a calm, composed, as it. says on this little wheel, in-charge, guiding, and leading way like a lion. does, they're going to need to have a bit of. lion in them in them.

You want to be all of those animals. You want a balance of all of them. That's what you want to strive for. You want a balance of all those. in the good sense, right? The good. version of those animals. You But you need to know when am I. supposed to be lion? So if I'm a a. leader, if I'm a a business person, if. I'm if if you have you're you're. selecting someone to put in charge of a. group, they have to have some lion in. them. They can't all be mouse because no.

one's going to listen. What if I'm negotiating a pay raise? If you're negotiating a pay raise, first. of all, you're going to come in with all. your homework done. You're not going to. come in and go, "I think I deserve a. raise. I feel like I deserve a raise. You know, I've been here for a long. time." You're going to come in with a. list of. facts. And you're going to say, "I closed this. deal and made this much money. I closed. this account with this person and made. this much money. I did this in a year. I. generated this amount of money. I'm. going to list the facts so I can. articulate to you why you should give me.

that raise.". That's on you. I think, I feel, I. believe, and then your boss can turn. around and be like, "Well, I think, I. feel, I believe that you shouldn't get. one." It's so ambiguous. When you come. in with facts, it's a hard thing to. fight. Now, when you're going into that. meeting, if I'm the one asking for the. raise, I'm going to go in as lion. I'm. in charge. I'm setting the agenda. because I'm the one asking for a raise. So, I'm going to come in with my facts. methodical. I'm going to be good lion. Sir, I Steven, uh I just wanted to talk.

to you. I I I I made a I'm looking to. increase my compensation here. No. Well, now you're just bad lion. You want to let the guy Even if it. Here's the thing. Let's assume it's no. You're like in your head you're like, "There's no way.". You're going to let the person talk. You're going to let the person feel. heard. Even if it's like a hard no. Because what's most important is to let. them feel like you actually listened. But what if I say no to you? Then what. do you do? Who do you become? Do you.

become mouse? I just said absolutely. So, I would say, "Okay." I'd say, "Could. you explain to me why?". I don't want to give you a pay raise. Um I I I I think. I think I you know, I when I think about. who I'd rather have that money, me or. you, I think me. Well, so you've got actually T-Rex right. there. Well, how do you deal with it? So, if it's T-Rex, if it's a person. who's trying to kind of push back and. fight you, you have to deal with T-Rex. One of the things that they teach you. with the animal wheels, the only time.

you swap is mouse and lion cuz two. people can't be in charge. So, that's. the only time. But, when you have T-Rex, one of the things they teach you is you. have to deal with T-Rex. So, you have to be the good T-Rex, which. is frank or direct. so you said that you prefer the money go. to you and not to me. Okay, so bad T-Rex to remind people is. attacking, sarcastic, etc. Good T-Rex. Yeah, bad T-Rex be bad T-Rex would be. like, "Well, you're an idiot. You're. ridiculous. Well, you're a jerk.". And good T-Rex is frank, forthright, and. direct. Yeah, so you're saying you're not going.

to give me a raise because you want to. keep all the money for yourself. Correct. And not for me. Okay. Well, I don't know if I can. continue to stay here if that's going to. be the case. Right? You can I've been. here for X amount of years. I've. generated X amount of dollars. And so, that's going to be an issue for me and. my ability to stay and work here. I'm. being direct, frank, and forthright. Address people. There's no You can. address people. and it doesn't have to be ugly. Now, again, you can't control their behavior,

but you can control yours. So, you just. want to make sure that that a person. who's behaving like that, that you don't. get pulled into that behavior. You just. want to stay on the good wheel of it. It's all self-regulation. But, you also don't want to be afraid to. deal with people. That's why. dealing with rejection and and and tough. personalities and hard people, like, it's good practice. Every time somebody. like that comes along, I want you to. think, "I'm practicing. I'm practicing. I'm practicing." Don't be afraid of it. And then, it also allows you to work on.

your T-Rex. Because if you have a hard time with it, it allows you to work that muscle. It allows you to learn how to deal with. people who get in your face. while managing yourself. The You're going to have folks like. that. I think it's what I was listening. to one researcher, one in every 25. people. are either going to be a psycho they're. going to have antisocial. uh personality disorder, which is like. psychopath, sociopath type of behavior, or narcissistic personality disorder.

One of these extreme behaviors, which. lack empathy. One in 25 people, that. means one out of every 25 people you. meet are going to be trying to slap you. around. Buckle up. We have a closing tradition on this. podcast, where the last guest leaves a. question for the next guest, not knowing. who they're going to be leaving it for. And the question that has been left for. you. in The Diary of a CEO is. on your deathbed. what do you want your legacy to be?

I want. to. have given something. to the world. I want to have added value to the world. rather than taking from it. That's what I would like on my deathbed. And I think also. I just wanted to have lived a good life. When I say good, I don't mean. problem-free or anything like that. I.

mean just. I've lived it to my fullest. And I can I can leave. the world with. that peace. Everybody needs to go listen to your BBC. Maestro course. It's really fantastic. It's um There's There's a lot of a lot. of courses on there, but but I think. yours stands out for so many reasons. You actually pull in some experts who. have trained you on various things in. the past to be part of that course. So, I'll link that below, but also this book.

has been an absolute revelation to so. many people. I think in part because. it's so. unbelievably easy to read for everyone. You don't need to be a super advanced. psychologist or a professor like you are. to understand all of these strategies. and tactics. Um. And it has everything. I think if I was. in the um. contents page, and just to give people a. flavor of the subjects that you talk. about, it's everything from. overcoming fear, mental resilience, if. you must fight then fight, things we've.

talked about today, the the parts about. how to influence people, the subjects. about everybody lying, all the stuff. we've talked about, and so so much more. is in this book. So, I recommend if you. haven't read it, I know a lot of people. have cuz they tag me in it all over the. place. Um I highly recommend you read. the book Becoming Bulletproof, Life. Lessons from a Secret Service Agent. Thank you so much. Thank you for having. of wisdom and you um you remind me of so. many things that I seem to quickly. forget um every time we speak, and. you're helping so many people. And the. legacy that you aspire to have is most. certainly the legacy that you're on. course to.

create by everything that you do, by the. millions of people that you served. And. there's something about you that's very. very special. There's some sort of. relatability, there's a wisdom, there's. a frankness, and a no bullshit-ness, but. then there's also the balance and the. nuance and the understanding that the. truth is often somewhere in the middle, which I think is incredibly important. for people. So, thank you for being who. you are and doing all that you do. It's. a privilege to speak to you once again. And I hope we speak again in in the. future. I appreciate you. Thank you, Stephen.