Scooter Braun: When Everything Broke, It Fixed Me

There's parts of your life where there's. these big question marks that I'm hoping. you can answer for me. Okay. But I want the full truth. Now I'm nervous. Scooter Braun is the man behind some of. the biggest stars in the music industry. And he built one of the most disruptive. entertainment empires on the planet. I've never really said this out loud. until right now. At this age, I feel a. lot of guilt. Because I worked with so many young. artists, and we were all kids moving so. fast, and we all wanted to succeed so. bad. And it wasn't until I was 40 years.

old doing some intense therapy that I. realized I was so driven by the fear. that I wouldn't be enough. So, let's go back. As a kid growing up, I wanted to prove that I could be more. than the privilege I was born with, and. I created this character Scooter because. I didn't think Scott could achieve these. things. And that mask made me absolutely. relentless faking it till I make it. Like, I had no right convincing Justin. and his mom to be on the first plane. they'd ever been on and meet me. So, what were they betting on? My ignorance. But it was also realizing. that so much of insecurity drives us and.

makes us great. Like, now that I'm here, I can't fail because then everyone will. see that I shouldn't be here. So, let's. go for it. And then we had such extreme. success. The whole world thought I was. crushing it, but I had built this mask. so big, I didn't realize how far away. I'd gotten from Scott. So, here I am, the top of my game, and I wanted to kill. myself. I went to a very dark place, and I broke down crying. Because I spent so much time trying to. impress people who didn't love me. instead of realizing how many people.

already did. And I was so desperate to do the thing I. had never done before. What was that? This has always blown my mind a little. bit. 53% of you that listen to the show. regularly haven't yet subscribed to the. show. So, could I ask you for a favor. before we start? If you like the show. and you like what we do here and you. want to support us, the free simple way. that you can do just that is by hitting. the subscribe button. And my commitment. to you is if you do that, then I'll do.

everything in my power, me and my team, to make sure that this show is better. for you every single week. We'll listen. to your feedback, we'll find the guest. that you want me to speak to, and we'll. continue to do what we do. Thank you so. much. Scooter, when I look at your life and I look at. the things you've achieved, so much of it makes sense, but then. there's this these other parts of your. life where there's these big question. marks that I'm hoping you can answer for. me. And maybe the earliest question mark.

that remains in my head is. what it is that drives you. Because from. an exceedingly young age, there was this. dog in you. There was something at at. for me, when I was going through the. research, it looked like a chip on your. shoulder or something to prove to. someone. And so that's really where I wanted to. start. I want to understand your. earliest context so I can understand the. cauldron that Scooter was shaped in and. in the way that that made the boy turn. to a man. Big question, but that's the. um. The starter. Right out of the gate.

in my head. You know, it's funny cuz you started by. asking Scooter, what drives you? And it took me a long time to figure out. as an adult that it was actually Scott, my real name, that was the real driver. And I I really created this guy Scooter. when I was an adult because I didn't. think Scott could achieve these things. So I almost like created a mask and it. wasn't till I was 40 years old doing. some intense therapy that I fell in love. with my name again and realized.

the answer to your question, which is. part of it was shame. of why. with my family's background. am I getting all this privilege? My father's a refugee from Hungary. My. mother, her dad died when she was 11. You know, and her mother struggled to to. raise them with family help in the. Catskill Mountains. My grandparents were. Holocaust survivors. And here I am. first generation born in America.

and I wanted to prove. that I could be more than the privilege. I was born with. And I so I had that chip on my shoulder. I wanted to prove my value. I wanted to. prove I was worthy of this. Who's told you you had to? No one. I think, you know, as a kid. growing up. I read it that way because, you know, you're hearing the stories of the. Holocaust and my dad every night before. he put me and my brother to bed would. say, "Hey, boys, you're different. You're special. I hold you to a higher. standard.". Every night before we went to bed.

And we started to really believe him of. like we need to hold ourselves to this. higher standard. We need to do more. The idea of failing, the idea of looking. at my parents and and not achieving it, that's what drove me. And and years ago. I was on a podcast, probably 10 years. ago. I was doing a podcast with Complex with. this guy Noah. it. Do you remember the baseball analogy? Yes. I literally wrote it down in my. notes. Well, I will tell it again, but I will. tell you on your podcast the difference. I hold today.

Okay. They asked me what it takes to be. successful. And I made up this analogy with. baseball. And I said, "Imagine Cy Young. Award winner CC Sabathia at the height. of his career. He's in the middle of. Yankee Stadium and they invite everyone. to come hit a home run.". And they say, "You get as many of bats. as you want and whoever hits the home. run wins like the, you know, billion. dollars, million dollars, whatever it. is.". And you can imagine everyone flies in. from all around the world. People are. flying from New York City. The line is.

crazy. And I said, "The person who's. successful is not only the person who. finally gets up to the plate. and swings and misses. but stays at the plate." And now people. are saying, "You kidding me? There's. lines of millions of people waiting for. their turn and you're going to stay. there? You're going to stay there and. swing again?" And they swing again. And. then everyone's booing. And they swing. again. And they literally keep swinging. as everyone is booing them and booing. them and booing them for hours. They're. the most selfish person in the world. You don't deserve to be here. Get off. that plate. This is not And then they. finally hit that homer. And everyone.

cheers cuz oh my god, they did it. And I said that years ago. And it wasn't. till recently that I realized there's. one difference in the story. I never understood who the crowd was. I always thought the crowd was being. able to shut out the outside noise. I. always thought the crowd was the. naysayers and all the people who are in. your life who will tell you you're never. going to achieve anything. And that's. part of it. But the crowd, all those. people waiting in line, is actually you. That's what I never realized till now. That that's the difference. I always.

thought. when people ask me what drove you, I. thought it was all the outside noise. I. thought it was the fear of failure, the. fear of letting them down, all these. different things. And it wasn't till. recently. when I hit some hardships as an adult. and really had to look inward that I. realized everyone's got the same crowd. And everyone has their own issues. And. everyone has their own stuff. And what. actually brings you to success and. self-worth and happiness is actually. understanding how to stand at that plate. and shut out the noise that's here.

Not the millions of people around. The. millions of people are in your head. screaming at you. Telling you you're not. enough. The deep deep lie. From the most. confident people, they have it. So, I'm glad I get to finally publicly say. the difference cuz I've had it wrong all. these years. And in that analogy, you talk about how. most people come up to the plate, they. swing once, they hear the boo, they. leave, they go back to their sofa or. wherever they're coming from. Some. people. Or they swing two three times. Everyone's telling them they're selfish. and they get, you know, oh my god. And.

they're embarrassed and they leave. It takes a lot for someone to stand. there in the middle of the noise, shut. out the noise and understand the. opportunity was given to me. I deserve. this. I'm going to keep swinging. Going back to your early context, Scott. Yeah. You had a Irving. Yeah. He sounds like quite a tough guy. I was reading about some of the things. he was saying to you when you were a kid. and I was like, "Dad, Jesus." Like when. he called you a liar. Yeah. That day and told you about living with. integrity, etc.

My dad grew up tough. And it was almost. like when you're being raised by two. people who lived through what they lived. through, they were raising him for a world that. took everything away from them. They were so loving. They still raised him that way. And then. he was so loving, but he still raised us really tough. And. I was the firstborn son, so I'm the. oldest of all our kid all the kids. So. he was very tough on me. You're referencing this time when I was. I was probably 14. And he uh. he caught me in like a white lie.

And usually he would punish me and his. punishments could be severe. But this time he just said, "Hey, come. here. I want to talk to you. It's not going to be a punishment this. time. I just want you to know you got. the gift for gab. You could talk your way out of anything. And in life, I used to tell you if you. lie, you're not going to be successful. I want to tell you the truth. You're so. good at it, you might be successful. But you're. going to be a liar. And I'll know you're a liar. And you'll. know you're a liar. So do with that what. what you want.".

And I was so beaten down and ashamed cuz. it wasn't like raining down fists on me. It was just like. the guy I admired so much called me a. liar. And I walked away. I was messed. up. And I went back to him and I said, "Dad, I want you to know. I'm not going to lie. I'm going to be a. man of integrity. I'm. I yeah, I could do that, but I. understand this opportunity and what. you're saying.". And he just looked at me and said, "Okay, good." He walked away. And it was one of the best lessons ever, you know, cuz. he was right. Like you you can win.

certain ways, but you're going to know. How do you How do you want to win? You. want to do it the right way. And um. and that that tough love. I'm appreciative of it. You go to college? I went to college. You went to college. Um you started a. business at college doing events. Yeah, well, I I started selling fake. IDs. That's what I started doing. First, yeah. Yeah, I sold fake IDs cuz my friend sold. fake IDs and I thought he had a bad. business plan. So, I was like, "I'll. market them, you make them.". Um and and quickly uh.

he broke my golden rule of not keeping. in touch with people we sold to. So, I. stopped immediately cuz I didn't want to. get caught. And um I walked by a. nightclub and said, "How much. would you give me if I brought people. here the next week?" And that was the. beginning of my Atlanta party promotion. days. Why did that succeed? What is it about. you, as you look back in hindsight, your. skillset, your ability, that made your. party promotion days so successful, which eventually sort of parlayed into. music, but. A combination of things. I think one. uh I wasn't a threat to the freshman.

girls. I had a high school sweetheart at. the time. I was very committed to her. I was a decently cute kid and I could. dance. Okay. So, I was a good person to go out with. and have fun. So, uh that was one thing. Number two, I was playing sports, so I. had a lot of friends in different, you. know, teams and different arenas. And. three, I was in the right place at the. right time. You know, I uh that first. party I threw was successful. And at that first party, I was. approached by. a guy named Jason Weaver. He's an actor. And he was in this old Michael Jackson.

movie I used to watch as a kid where he. played young Michael. And he came in and. he said, "This is crazy." cuz Atlanta at. that time was very segregated in the. club scene. So, it was like. if you were black, you went to a party. that you know, a club that played hip. hop. And if you were white, you went to. a club that played techno. But I didn't grow up in the South and I. wanted to listen to hip hop and rock and. roll. And we played that. And when Jason came. in, he was so fascinated to see a mixed. crowd listening to hip hop that he was. like, "You want to see how the other. half lives?" And Jason brought me to a.

club called Velvet Room on Tuesday. nights in Atlanta, Georgia. It was ran by a guy named Alex Gidewon. Alex was so fascinated to see me in the. line. He said, "Yo, let this kid in. here." And Alex taught me how to. promote. He taught me what the value of. the door actually was, what I should be. getting from the bar, and I would start. moving my parties and I would spend all. my money that I made on Thursday nights. at the college party on Alex's Tuesday. night. Meeting people, meeting rappers, meeting. singers, meeting different people. Faking it till I make it. And getting.

people to come back and forth between my. parties and that's how I started. That's. how I met Jermaine. That's how I met. Luda. That's we all kind of came up. together. Relationships. Why did he give you a foot up? So many. people are early in their careers and. they're having these chance encounters, but they those aren't converting into a. relationship. And when I look at your life, there's. people you meet along the way who end up. being really really pivotal. And it appears to me as an objective. observer that you have. an ability to form good relationships, loyal lasting relationships with people.

One, I think it's important to pay. people respect. You know, I came from a household where. you respect your elders. And when I was. coming up, I was 19. So, I was very respectful of the people. that are giving me an opportunity. And I. never forgot who helped me along the. way. I think the other thing that was a big. part of my philosophy was. let your work be the reason they want to. meet you. I didn't want to be that kid who was. going, "Hey, give me an opportunity.". And by the way, sometimes that works.

But I wanted them to see what I was. doing and then say, "Come over here.". I didn't approach Jermaine Dupri. to. work at So So Def. Jermaine heard about. me and my parties and he met me and he. said, "You have more potential than. parties. Why don't you come work for. me?". I didn't approach, you know, Ludacris. who was coming up as a rapper and say, "Let me do that." I didn't a lot of. people in my life I. I never really approached them and then. even as my life changed and I I older, I made a lot of relationships and I have. a lot of relationships now that I've. never done business with. And people go,

"Well, you have that relationship. Why. don't you?". And it was because I never wanted anyone. to feel. probably my insecurity is I never wanted. anyone to feel like I needed them. I never wanted to feel like a user. It. was like my own insecurities of how they. might see me. Mhm. But I think on top of that, I just. it was that same old thing of never. wanting to be in a position. where you're begging somebody for. something. I called Jermaine. And we spoke to him, and I listened to. the recording again just before you.

arrived, but. what Jermaine said in that voice. recording is also pretty similar to what. your dad said, which is they both saw. something in you. You're this young kid who doesn't have. an extensive track record of decades of. work, but they're all betting on you. in some way. As you look back on your life, what were. they betting on? Cuz they all seem pretty sure. that you had something. My ignorance. Ignorance? I think uh. I No one told me I shouldn't be there.

And he offered you a job for working at. his company, which meant you had to drop. out of college. I didn't have to drop out of college. I. did because um. I went to work for Jermaine, and now I'm. traveling all the time. I'm still. throwing parties. You know, we're. gearing up for Usher's album. We're. doing this. We're doing that. I'm. working with the YoungBloodz, Anthony. Hamilton. Like it's And I'm 19, 20 years. old. And my grade point average went from a. 3.something to a 1.something. And they brought me in on academic. probation, and they said um.

"You know, what's going on with you? Is. there a drug problem? Are you being. abused?". And I said, "No, no, no, no. I'm an. entrepreneur. I'm building this. I want. to build a record label. I'm working. with Jermaine Dupri. Uh you know," and. this guy's looking at me like I'm. insane. And he's This dean looks at me. at Emory, and he says uh "Do you know the story of. Robert Woodruff?". And I said, "You know, Robert Woodruff?". He goes, "Yeah, the founder of. Coca-Cola, the Woodruff Center, the. largest endowment at Emory." And he. tells me this amazing story of this. entrepreneur. who created Coca-Cola, who is the.

largest endowment at our university, and. I'm so hyped. I'm like, this guy gets. me. He gets me. He's going to help me. I'm going to be at the school, and just. when my hopes are really high, he looks. at me and goes, "You know what we're. going to do, right?" Cuz we're going to. stop all the nonsense. You're going to. focus on school. You're going to get a. degree because the chance of you being. like Robert Woodruff without an Emory. degree is like one in a billion. And the moment he said it, that's when I. dropped out of school. What did your father say? Before you ask me about my father, I. want to ask you a question. Okay.

You made a face and you paused. Yeah. Because you have your own story of. something happening like this. I just have a a bi- I just have a real. hate for dream busters. Yet every great story we have of. success, people tell of that pivotal moment, Mhm. whether it be this dean or Michael. Jordan being cut by his coach is his. diversity coach when he was younger. Yeah. We all talk about the dream buster as a. catalyst to our success. Mhm. And you know, in life I've I've kind of. feel like everything, even, you know,

it's like I have this tattoo, amor fati, you know, from Marcus Aurelius. It's the. a concept, love of one's fate, in Latin. And it's this concept that you have to. love. the sorrow as much as you love the joy. You have to love the pain as much as you. love the success. You know, it's If it. wasn't for that dean, I wouldn't have. had that chip on my shoulder in that. moment. I would just push you on the. fact that you hate these dream busters, but I am so grateful for them. I'm I'm grateful for the dream busters. However, and I this is actually. something I was talking to my friends. about in our group chat this morning.

Is it okay in your view to be driven by. haters? It It's so funny because. If you're only driven by haters, no. But I think that everything plays its. role at the time. Like, um Robert Greene, Mhm. he talks about this idea of embracing. your dark side. Mhm. And. I think that there's truth in that. Like. you know, if. if you continue to fight something. that's naturally inside of you, you're going to really struggle with it. If you can accept that's part of you, you can use it as fuel and you can move.

right through it. So, yes, there are. things that drive me. My curiosity is a. big driver for for where I go. My children now are big driver for where. I go and how I live my life. The people. I love, the joy that I find, the. introspective voice that now I can go to. when I'm meditating or you know, working. on myself. But doubt from someone who dislikes me. or doubt from a hater, I can pretend. like I'm Zen as much as I want. But if I'm being really honest with.

myself, sometimes. that's the fuel that I need. So, I think if it's if it's solely one. thing, it's not healthy. But I think if you can admit you get. fuel and different influences from. different places and don't try and be. ashamed of the one that doesn't fit in. your narrative of how evolved you are, you know, then it's okay. You established SB Projects, I believe, after leaving Jermaine. When you were 24, 25 years old? 24. And I read that you'd kind of had had.

this plan to sign three different types. of acts. Yeah. First one, Asher Roth, who's a very. famous rapper. Yeah, I wanted to sign three types of. acts and Asher fit the mold for one, Justin for the other and the other one I. never found. So, Asher, for people that is a very successful. rapper. Um, what was the mold you were. trying to fit? Eminem was a very big rapper, is one of. the biggest rappers of all time. And. I was in college and I'm watching all. like these. at the time these frat guys,

but they loved hip hop. And I don't think they had anyone who. spoke to their life. So, I wanted a kid. who could speak to college life, who had. the skills. to be credible within the world of hip. hop. Why did think you could find talent? What Did you believe. Ignorance. Ignorance. Okay. I'm telling you every aspect of my life, if we talked about every little thing. that I've been in you said earlier I've. been in all these different things and. probably your listeners have no idea the. hell I am. So like what is he talking. about? But every time I put myself in. that next arena,

it's this why not me. I had no right contacting Usher on. MySpace. I mean at that point I could. say okay I came from So So Def. I was. the youngest vice president music. because of Jermaine when I was at So So. Def. I was 20 years old. So I had the. right, you know, some credibility other. people didn't have. I definitely could. do that. But to tell him to drop out of. college and move down to Atlanta, Georgia for to be the first artist on my. record label to. you know, find Justin in Canada and. convince his mom and him to be on the. first plane they'd ever been on to come.

down to Atlanta and meet me. I mean it. it was. I was 25 years old, 24 years old. Like. these are. I was insane. You know, Interesting. When we talk about belief, we we ask if you know, Scooter did you. have belief? But in your case you had. the lack of limiting beliefs, which. shows up the same as having belief. There was just like nothing. It wasn't even because I was so driven. by also the fear that I wouldn't be. enough. That back then I would have lied. I. would have said, "Oh I had such a deep. belief in my in my conviction that I.

could do it.". It was partially that, but it was also. why not me and no one told me I can't be. here and also now that I'm here I can't. fail because then everyone will see that. I shouldn't be here. And so it was this this fear excitement. fear excitement conviction. That's what. I always tell people when I meet them as. young people. I'm like, "You don't have. kids. You can starve a little bit. Your. parents want you to go the easiest route. because they don't want to see you. suffer, but now is the time when you.

should be suffering.". If you want to go for it, now's the time. when you don't have anyone to support. where you can really. really go for it because later on in. life you got to think about other. people. And back then 19 years old to 24. I'm let's go for it. And the second artist that you signed. was called Justin Bieber. Who's Justin. Bieber? Justin Bieber. You were 26 years old.

when you came across Justin? 25. 25 and he was 12? 13? 13. Damn. You discovered Justin by watching a. a So Sick video by Ne-Yo? Yeah, well I saw a bunch of videos from. his church his mom had posted and the. one that moved me the most was So Sick. by Ne-Yo.

You must have been asked this a. gazillion times. but the the actions you then took based. on seeing a kid on on a video are. bizarre. Yeah. They are bizarre. Yeah, I like Googled. the background of of the church to look.

up the businesses and then called the. regions of Canada school boards to. figure out where he was cuz his mom had. a different name than him cuz her name. was Mallette his was Bieber. So I went a little crazy to find him. within 24 hours. Once I saw him I kind. of knew. In person or. No, I knew when I saw online. I was like. this is the kid I've been looking for. and I felt the same way about Usher. I. mean I relentlessly kind of pursued both. of them. I had a clear vision to like. what I could do and what he was capable.

of and it was funny cuz no one believed. me. I mean, even after we met and we did the. deal and we started working together, literally no one believed me and YouTube. was not a big thing back then, so. when I took him from 60,000 views and we. took him to like 60 million, now he's. like. one of the biggest YouTubers in the. world and everyone's like, "Yeah, you. YouTubers don't turn into musicians. though.". What were the first principles that you. saw in him? Like, what were the cuz I. when I think about having those moments. where my intuition just says yes to. something. Tone. Okay. Charisma.

Um it was like. he had incredible tone and he had soul. and he had charisma. He was doing like. there was one where there was an. instrumental and he was like jumping. around and I just believed in him. instantly. And then when I met him, he. had even more charisma. He was funny and. I was like, "All right, this kid, let's. go.". And he was an athlete, so he was. competitive. He was a very special special talent and. a very unique individual and uh. those were special times. And you flew in.

to meet him and his mother? No, they flew to me. Oh, okay. I talked to her for like an hour and a. half that night and uh first plane ride. they ever went on. And I remember he was so excited that. there was a fridge inside his hotel. room. His mother said. s-. speaking of you, Scooter really believed. in Justin from day one. He put. everything on the line for us. And and they put it on the line for me, too. You know, they believed in a 25-year-old. kid.

And uh. we were able to achieve some amazing. things. And I'm. very proud of what we achieved and. always rooting for him. What's your relationship with Justin. now? Um. not the same that it was. I think, you. know, these things go through ebbs and. flows. I think. there comes a point where. I understand he probably wants to go on. and and show that he can do it. I mean, we we worked together for so long and we.

had such extreme success. And I think you get to a point as a as a. man. where you want to show the world you can. do it on your own. And uh I completely respect that. And I think at this point. that's what he's doing and. myself and and everyone from the old. team is rooting for him. But I stopped managing 2 and 1/2 years. ago. And now I'm I'm a cheerleader from the. side and. you know, I I want everyone that I worked with to. do well. I think sometimes when you walk.

away from management, I've heard. managers which I never understood, they'd be like. deep down with behind closed doors, they. don't want to see them do as well. without them. It's almost like. you know, them succeeding is is. tarnishing your legacy. Mhm. Every artist that I worked with, I. believed in them cuz they were great. And if they continue to be great, I think that's the best testimony to. that belief. So, to see. Justin move forward and succeed, to see.

Ariana, you know, with what's happened. with Weeknd in this past year, um. to see Tori Kelly, you know, to see everybody that I've. ever had a chance to work with, to see them go on and do great things on. their own, it's awesome. Is there anything that these individuals. have in common at all? These people that. Pain. Pain. Yeah. I think it's pain, personally. I think um.

to be able to convey emotions on the. level that it touches people around the. world, you have to understand emotions. And I think um. I think great artists, great performers are able to draw from. different places and sometimes it's joy. and sometimes it's pain. Um and sometimes it's just a natural. God-given gift. How important is hard work? Oh, it's very important. I think especially in the beginning. In. the beginning.

you're stepping into a pool where. everyone talented wants to be seen. And you have to work incredibly hard. to break out of the noise. So, I And by the way, I don't think. that's particular to artists or music or. film or TV or anything I've done with. entertainment. I think that's. every business I've ever been a part of. The first three to five years of any. business I've ever built in any arena. or worked with anyone who's ever. achieved anything great, those first.

three to five years are the most. important. Sounds like something I said to my. girlfriend. Um it sounds like, you know, same thing. with a relationship maybe. Like putting. in the foundation those first three to. five years and really be there together. I I really believe that. I think. you put in that time in the beginning. and you can break through the noise and. set a foundation for everything else. When I think about Justin's career, he. he had a a wobble um where he was. involved in lots of sort of.

uh and. you know, it looked like he was going. through a bit of difficulty. And I. reflect on one of my friends, Liam. Payne, and who was on this podcast and who's. sadly passed away now, but. he also around the same age was thrown. into the public eye at a very young age. He joined One Direction, went on crazy. crazy wild roller coaster ride that is. One Direction. And he admitted on the. podcast that he struggled. He struggled. with addiction, he struggled with lots. of pain that he was dealing with. And. his story has is a. an inspiring one ultimately, but also a.

tragic one in many respects. Why does this happen to so many young. artists, childhood stars? You know, when you ask me this question. at this age, I feel a lot of guilt. Um I feel a lot of guilt because I. worked with so many young artists. And like I told you, I hadn't taken the. time to look at myself or.

um do the therapy myself until I was. older. So, I didn't understand at 25-years old, at 27-years old, at 30-years old. that. they each were coming from very unique. backgrounds of their own stuff with. their own families and their own. childhoods and growing up this way and. being seen by the whole world and being. judged by the whole world at a very. young age. And I think it it's two.

things. I think one, human beings are. not made to be worshipped. I think we're. made to serve. And I think that when we worship human. beings. it changes something within us. It it. messes us up a little bit. because that's not what we're built for. And I think that can be very confusing. And I think being able to transcend the. childhood of, you know, people cheering. your name and and everything else at. that level. and get to the place where the artists. I've worked with are, where they are in.

healthy relationships and and with their. families and and still working through. stuff, but like having a human. experience, I think it's a testament to. their strength. So, I think that's part of it. I just. think the nature of of being on that. stage, you know, that young and people. chanting your name and I didn't realize. that till, you know, I got older. The. other side of it is. I never understood, even without me I. didn't have that childhood. Yet, I. broke. And what I think also is important is um. I don't think we can.

push everything. I think adversity is. important. We can't just talk about. mental health and say adversity. shouldn't exist. But I do think I understand the. importance now of. of really putting in the time to make. sure mental health is addressed and that. we have an outlet to speak to someone. outside of the crew. Um. and there's a lot of things that I. learned within myself that I wish I knew. back then. I met those One Direction kids when they. started. They came to LA and actually.

the whole group cuz Niall reached out to. me. They came to my house to hang out in. the backyard when they were first. starting before they really blew up like. their first US visit to LA. And I met Liam back then. And I met the excited young kid with the. with the voice. Yet each one of them has had a different. experience. Each one of them has had a different. story of perseverance and tragedy. Um.

and that's the thing it's like with kids. like you just never know what the. cocktail's going to make of life. Um and I think. I think. you know, that idea of we're not made to. be worshipped that can play funny things. on the mind. The brain isn't even developed until. you're 25 they tell me. So. I don't even know if mine's developed at. 43. But I've sat here with so many. neuroscientists that have said that to. me and it it and also addiction. scientists that say the brain is still. learning and building its sort of like.

dopamine receptors and stuff. So Liam. was telling me that he he was up on. stage in front of a hundred or thousand. people in Dubai. Huge adrenaline rush, huge surge of. dopamine. Then they drive him back to. his hotel. He's like, "They lock the. door and it's just me in there with the. mini bar." And then the the next day. it's the exact same thing. Stage, car, hotel. without the stage you're looking for. that dopamine hit. Yeah. No, it's it's uh. Like I said, it's. I'm very proud of.

the job that we did and how much we. cared and how much the team cared for. all the years that we did it. But it doesn't mean I don't look back. and wish that I knew what I know now. How would you have been different? Hmm. I think I would have had a therapist on. the road for all of us. Like. you know, I think that's the biggest. difference. I think I would have slowed. down all of us. I think I made would. have made every single one of us stop. and do that hour.

You know, because we were all kids. and we were all moving so fast and we. all wanted to succeed so bad and we all. wanted. the excitement and we wanted to make. kids dreams come true and bring them. down from the upper decks to put them in. the front row and, you know, to help. Justin get that number one and, you. know, to help Ariana do this and we all. wanted it and we we were excited and we. were doing something. that was so unique and everyone in the. world was so excited for us. You know, oh my gosh, you guys are a part of this.

This is so cool. I didn't know. I didn't know. to go inward for the dopamine hit. And I wish I would have known that. and been able to. share it back then. When Justin ultimately said that he. wanted to kind of go it alone and do it. himself, does that hurt? No. Not at that point. I think I was also at. that point. You know, at that point.

it had been a couple years where I knew. I wanted to do something else. And I I wanted to find out who I was. I. wanted to. experiment with, you know, a different. career and we were both communicating. enough with each other. Everyone the. writing was on the wall. How many clients. Oh god. that we would know. A lot. Cuz when I was doing my research, I was. like, no, surely not. Carly Rae Jepsen. and then. um Martin Garrix. Kanye. Yeah. Can you give me the top 10.

off the top of your head that you worked. with? Yeah, I would never say a top 10. A good. manager knows not to do that. But I got. I got to work with a lot of incredible. artists a long time. I mean from. Zac Brown Band to Black Eyed Peas to. Justin to Ariana to you know, Martin. Garrix we signed um while he was at Club. Med with his parents. We contacted him. cuz he had the song Animals and we heard. it. Um. to Dan and Shay to I mean just to so. many over the years. It was pretty incredible to be a part. and so close to so many.

incredible stories. You know, and to see, you know, going to. a coffee shop to see Tori Kelly sing. to see her walk on a Grammy stage. I It just I got to see really incredible. moments in people's lives to, you know, Demi telling me I want to sing the. national anthem at the Super Bowl. You know, and show me a tweet that she. wrote this years ago to see her actually. perform, you know, you know, uh. at the Super Bowl. You know, so. it's.

it's just been a really cool experience, but I got to see it in so many different. arenas. And And you're only there for a. flash, right? You have this little tiny. small moment here, little tiny small. moment here. But to get to witness so many different. rides, it's a really cool thing. I remember as. a kid I heard this great saying, "Don't. just read stories, try to be a part of. them. Try to be a story.". And I think I've always tried to take. that into my life. Crazy crazy what I was I was There was a. second ago when you were talking and I. was just. I stepped into your body for a second.

and I ran the highlight reel of your. life just as Justin's um. sort of. manager. I was thinking, "God, like the. places you must have been and the things. you must have seen just as his manager, let alone working with all of these. other great artists. It's not just a. lifetime of experience, it's multiple. lifetimes. of fortune to get to even see those. things.". I met a guy. years ago and um. I'll name drop here. So, I I got invited.

to meet Charlie Munger. Oh, yeah, the investor. Yeah. And everyone was asking him questions. about business and I asked him a. question about life. And afterwards, his guy contacted me. He. goes, "Charlie liked your question. He. wants you to meet this other guy that he. really likes. He's a brilliant. businessman." And I meet this other. gentleman and he tells me he's a. statistician by trade and the reason. he's excited to meet me is cuz people in. my world who are part of so many. different stories live in dog years. Cuz they get to be a part of kind of so.

many other people's things. Yeah. Um but it's uh. it's a unique thing. But I told you it. the biggest lesson I learned from all of. it. is that at one point in my life, I. received so much praise. And then the next moment. without me expecting it, I received so. much hate. And. on the other side of all these. experiences, I've come to learn that. both were not deserved.

The people who were praising me did not. know me. And the people who hated me did not know. me. And it's like one of my favorite uh. I saw Tom Hanks say this on like an. actor's table one time. He goes, "This. too shall pass." You remember that? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's so great. He's like, "You think. you're killing it? This too shall pass.". He's like, "You think it's going to be. hard? This too shall pass." Like, it's. true. So, what do you anchor in then? If so much is transient? At this point? In life generally, what what does one. anchor in if everything is transient?

If, you know, this too shall. have kids yet. I have a major anchor in. three kids. Major anchor. What if you don't have kids? If you don't have kids, that's when you. should definitely do the self-work cuz. your anchor is you. And and the truth is. I've really gotten to a beautiful place. of I fully expect to be misunderstood in. the future. I expect tomorrow something. can happen where especially cuz my life. has been somewhat in the public eye. you get misunderstood all the time. people make up stories they twist things. someone's hurt and it comes out this way.

that way. I could get pulled into this stuff it's. happened to me already and so I've come. to terms with that what I've realized is. being on the other side of it already. happening to me all it does is end up. making room for something else. so for me what anchors me is. I no longer think I'm in control but I. think I'm participating in one hell of a. game. I can't control the outcome I'm Steph. Curry and LeBron could be at the height. of their game but even they can't. control the game they can influence it. and so that for me it was like the first.

half of my life was I'm manifesting I'm. manifesting I'm doing this that youthful. energy. and then you turn 40 and this stuff. happens and you start the other half of. your life you're like you know Michael. Singer I need to surrender you know. you're the surrender experiment you know. like everything surrender and then I. realize there's a balance there's this. balance of. I'm participating in an incredible game. and I can bring what I bring to the. table and I'm not going to be able to. control this game. but maybe I should start enjoying the. game a little bit.

I'm out here I'm participating that's. pretty freaking cool. and I think. that is what anchors me at this point. that I have no idea what the next 5 to. 10 years of my life are going to look. like I used to think I did now I know it. can change like that. and. I think I'm excited for love in the. future I'm excited for adventure. I'm not looking forward to the pain but. I know if it comes there's a reason for. it. so tell me about a.

an artist that you believed in you. didn't have to name them of course but. an artist you believed in you were wrong. about something you really just your. first principles were off. and in hindsight. I had an artist. who was. honestly maybe the most talented artist. I ever signed. His name was Spencer Lee. And. Spencer Lee. got brought to me by a buddy of mine. named Freddy. Uh. and we did a deal for Spencer and Dave. Appleton, who I told you about my buddy,

was trying to handle him management, and. Dave started calling me saying, "Hey, there's some real addiction issues here. and we're really struggling.". And we put him into rehab and then. he wrote one of the most incredible. songs, River Water.

About addiction. And when he got out, we thought, "Okay, he's going to be clean and everything. great." We made this video and we. started getting going. We made the.

Spencer Lee band. And he we started. putting him out there like paying for. everything to kind of get it going. And he started doing festivals and we. started getting phone calls of like, "Hey, people are coming to see this. insane talent with this voice.". And. he went uh back to drugs. and um. he overdosed last year. And uh he's no longer with us. And we got the news cuz his grandmother, who's the sweetest, she called to say, "Thank you for trying and everything.

else." And. that was the love of her life and she. lost him. And um. that one I got wrong because. I thought you know, maybe if we get the. records right, if we get the music, if. he gets on the road, you know, he gets. out of rehab, like, you know, this would. be enough. It's one of the biggest tragedies cuz I. I can't tell you. how good he was. I mean, he just a special special. talent. You listen to this guy's. records. Sometimes I always say I want.

to like reach out to his family and be. like, let's just release the records. Like the ones that I have that the. world's never heard. And I, you know, I would. all the money should go to, you know, a. cause, you know, to help people in a. similar situation. I wish we could do. that. I'd love to get permission to do. that. Um. cuz he was one of the most special. talents I ever came across. They don't want to release the records? It's complicated. Last week I was in New York interviewing. one of the world's leading addiction.

experts, and. if for anyone that hasn't been through. addiction, it's a very confusing thing to observe, because as an onlooker, you just go stop. that. You're self-destructing. But if. you've had friends that have dealt with. addiction, you realize that it's not an. attempt to self-destruct. It's like an. attempt to. Fill. Yeah, it's like it's maybe the last. attempt to do the opposite, to survive, to survive from something. When I was dealing with addiction with. someone I managed, um someone I really. respect.

told me about Al-Anon. Uh Al-Anon is for a support, it's like. AA, but for the families. Ah. And they recommend I go, and I went to. two Al-Anon meetings. And it was very. helpful at the time. And one of the. things I learned there. was one, this concept of it is not your. fault. You This is not about you, that you have. to love them where they're at. You can, you know, but the biggest thing I really. learned was be a rock. You know, like this person said to me, home doesn't move around. Home is a constant place that someone. can come back to.

If someone beats addiction, it is. because of them. You know, they've made that choice, and. they deserve the credit. But if you want to be helpful, this. person said, just try to be a constant. place they know that no matter what at. the end they can come back and they're. and you'll be waiting. Understanding your story, you stuck. around with Justin when he went through. his his difficult times and people were. calling for you to drop him and to. maybe move on. Yeah, I think it was an interesting. time, but like I said, if someone beats. that, they deserve the credit. So, I. don't I don't deserve any credit in.

that. He does. You ended up posting that post on your. Instagram which sent a ton of headlines. saying that you were quitting music. management. 23 years? After 23 years. There was a little bit. of a question mark though because. I think you referenced in something. you'd posted that. part of your inspiration or a catalyst. was a particular artist. had decided that they wanted to go their. own way. Yeah. Who was that? I prefer not to say. Like there's a. bunch of legal stuff around that and. everything else, but uh she.

Yeah. uh she informed me and I respect the. hell out of it that she was she felt. that way and uh but I had had that. conversation with others too. And and um. I wrote I mean I wrote it all in 23. years. The reason I posted that at the. time was. I'd already made the decision a year. prior, but I'd never talked about it. And you know, when you're running a big. company, there's all these, you know, legal things and we had to wait till. everything was in order and then I could. say it. And um and they were like,

"Well, you've already been out of it for. a year. Why say it now?" And I just felt. I need to say it for me, but I also need. to say it so I hold myself accountable. not to ever go back. Okay. And I you know, it was way too long. It. was like 10 slides on Instagram. No, it was. incredible. But it was I appreciate you saying that, but it was from the heart and I remember. waking up, posting it, and then just. like falling down. because I was like, "Oh my god, like. this thing I've been doing since I was. 19 is now over.".

And what I wrote in there is the truth. My entire adult life, that's all I had. known. So, not being in that situation, I. didn't know what a normal adult life was. like. I didn't know you could have a. weekend. Like, I didn't know, you know, like. that's what it was. I was on call all. the time for 23 years. And it wasn't. one, it was a lot. And um. finding out what a normal adult life was. like was pretty wild to me and also. really interesting. But I don't I had. some of the most incredible memories and.

I'm very grateful. But if you remember, do you remember the Berry Gordy quote at. the end? No, I don't. Berry Gordy is the founder of Motown. Records. Berry Gordy is a kid from. Detroit. Michael Jackson's theater play. Berry. Gordy. Correct. Yes. So, before Berry Gordy, black musicians. would make incredible music and a white. person could come along and just cover. it and make it theirs. And. Berry Gordy took that back and gave us. Motown Records and changed the entire.

music industry. And I was at a dinner. and Berry Gordy was placed next to me. And I was just like freaking out. Berry. Gordy's next to me. And we start talking. And this is years before. He said, "I'm going to tell you a story. and you're going to need it one day.". And boy was he right. And he said, you know, "Do you know what. the Motown 25 was?" And I said, "Absolutely. It was the first time. Michael Jackson did the moonwalk to. Diana Ross." And he's like, "Oh, you. really are a Motown fan." I was like, "Yeah.".

And he said, "Well, do you know I didn't. want to go?" I said, "What?" He goes, "Yeah, I didn't want to go. At the time, Michael had left for CBS Records, Diana. had left for CBS Records, and everyone. was saying that I took their publishing, and I was like the bad guy for all these. people that I had supported and lifted. and like I was so angry.". And I didn't want to go. I said, "Well, what changed?" He goes, "My family made me go." And I said, "Yeah, cuz I remember you were on the. balcony and I kept cutting to you." And. he goes, "You know, the first I get. there and Diana Ross's hosting, Michael's going to perform. He's the. biggest thing in the world. I'm I'm mad.

But. as the night went on, I suddenly. realized little Barry from Detroit would. have lost his mind knowing this was. coming. He said, "Young man, it will never end. the way you want it to, but it doesn't. mean it didn't happen.". And I didn't know how much I needed that. in the years to come. You can plan it, you can try and control. it as much as you want, but Barry Gordy. was right. It will never end the way you. want it unless you're Derek Jeter on the. Yankees. But or you you know, you're you're.

Messi. But um. but most of us it's not going to end the. way we want it. However, it happened. And how cool is that? Like. how cool is that that like we get to do. this and get to have this life? And I thought. that's the way I wanted to end 23 years. because. the me stopping managing and ending. managing and. it didn't end the way I necessarily. wanted. I would have wanted a giant. concert where all the artists come out, we celebrate everything we did together. And it ended pretty abruptly of like.

oh, this is it. And some want to leave and some want to. stay and. yeah, I'm done. I don't want to do this. anymore. And some people understood it and other. people didn't. But it happened. And no one could ever take that away. Did you ever feel betrayed? Of course. But I'm sure that goes both ways. Like as much as I felt betrayed like. music business can be heartbreaking. Management can be heartbreaking. Have. you watched David Geffen's documentary? He says. uh.

management is like move the mountain. over here and they say it was supposed. to be there. You know, but like but at the same time. it must be heartbreaking the other way. It's such an interdependent relationship. and it's such. I don't I you know, the people always. say stay on your side of the street. I. try to do that. It's easier for me to. move on with my life and be happy by. staying on my side of the street. So, yeah, I've definitely felt betrayed 100. times. I've definitely felt. misunderstood so many times. But, I also try to give empathy of if.

someone is doing this to me, they must. be hurting for some reason and maybe I. did play a role in it even if I don't. know I did. You know, so. Do you feel betrayed? Yes, especially in. a job of service. Yeah. But, yeah, you're right. We all do. have a preconception of how. how the run will end. Man, we're all the protagonists of our. own story.

Now that there's been some space between. that decision. Yeah. 2 and 1/2 years. 2 and 1/2 years since. that decision. Wow, 2 and 1/2 years. Wow, it feels like it was. 6 months ago. Well, it was 2 and 1/2 years for me. Okay. It's been probably a year and a half. since I probably posted that. Okay. You've had some space since that. decision. Correct decision? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Even high conviction now that it was the. right thing? Yeah, and like I said, it happened. In. hindsight, it was what it was supposed. to be at the time it was supposed to be. I think the reason why I wrote 23 years. and why I quit. I wouldn't say I quit when I retired and. stopped doing that. When I moved on, how.

about that? When I moved on to something. else. was because of what exactly what I. wrote. It was. I was too afraid to find out who I was. without it for so long that I probably. should have left earlier. But, I finally got to a point where I. realized either you do it now or. something bad you're going to have to. learn it the hard way again. You know, so it was time and. it was time for some of the most amazing. artists that I worked with to also. spread their wings and do their own. thing.

I think B2B marketers keep making this. mistake. They're chasing volume instead. of quality. And when you try to be seen. by more people instead of the right. people, all you're doing is making. noise, but that noise rarely shifts the. needle and it's often quite expensive. And I know there I a time in my career. where I kept making this mistake that. many of you will be making it, too. Eventually, I started posting ads on our. show sponsor's platform, LinkedIn, and. that's when things started to change. I. put that change down to a few critical. things. One of them being that LinkedIn.

was then and still is today the platform. where decision-makers go to, not only to. think and learn, but also to buy. And. when you market your business there, you're putting it right in front of. people who actually have the power to. say yes. And you can target them by job. title, industry, and company size. It's. simply a sharper way to spend your. marketing budget. And if you haven't. tried it, how about this? Give LinkedIn. Ads a try, and I'm going to give you a. $100 ad credit to get you started. If. you visit linkedin.com/diary, you can claim that right now. That's.

linkedin.com/diary. You sold your company for $1.1 billion. That's what I read. You can't confirm or deny it, but. That's publicly traded, so I can. confirm, but I don't like talking about. it. You sold your company for $1.1 billion. What I don't think people realize is. it's a [ __ ] lot of money. Um. at 39 years old, roughly? Yeah. I was about to turn 40. You talk about laying on the beach. Yeah. with your belly out. Yeah. I mean, with a significant amount of.

money in your bank account without the. same. job that's sort of demanding your time 7. days a week. A lot of people are scared of that. But. not not the money, but the gap, the. uncertainty, the space. Honestly, the timing of when it happened. for me, I was in such a place, like I said, of. surrender, that I really wasn't looking at it as. like. achievement or money or something like.

that. I more looked at it as. "What are you going to do now? Are you going to try and control or you. going to participate?" Like I told you. earlier. And I started to just be. curious for the first time. Instead of. I love this idea of a competitive mind. versus a. curious and creative mind. A competitive mind is what I had and. it's it's where I was of there's always. something finite when you're. competitive. You know it's going to. finish. There's going to be an outcome. and then what? But when you're operating from a curious. and creative mind,

there's no end. You can just continue to create, you. continue to build and I want I want to. be in that place in my life now of. what how big can I think? I saw this. Jeff Bezos interview the other day and. he just said one of the biggest curses. of an entrepreneur is not thinking big. enough. You know, and I think. you don't think big. You know, you only get one what ride. around this thing. Think big, have fun, love your friends, love your family, dance, laugh,

cry, you know, do all the things and. get to know yourself more and more every. single day. Just before that time, we have this. whole Taylor Swift incident. What happened? Is this the moment you're talking about. where you received bad press? Oh, bad press. Yeah, yeah. That was. That's the. When I bought Big Machine, I thought I. was going to. work with all the artists on Big. Machine. I thought it was going to be. like an exciting thing. I knew that.

Taylor. she and I had only met three times, I. think in my life, three or four times. And one of the time it was years. earlier. It was really a great. engagement. She invited me to her. private party and we we we respected. each other, we had a great engagement. In between that time since I'd seen her. last, I started managing Kanye West, I. managed Justin Bieber. I knew she didn't. get along with them. I had a feeling. This is where my arrogance came in. I. had a feeling she probably didn't like. me cuz I managed them, but I thought. that once this announcement happened,

she would talk to me, see who I am and. we would work together. And the announcement came out and I'm. calling Scott Borchetta and saying, "Hey, send me her number. I'm I just. talked to Thomas Rhett. He's excited, and I just talked to, you know, this you know, this person, and they're. excited, and I'm calling, you know, Florida Georgia Line next, and oh, I'm. going to get you." And then this Tumblr. comes out, and it says all this stuff, and I was just like shocked. Um. and. it's it's been 5 6 years. I don't need.

to go back into it, but what I can tell. you is everything in life is a gift. Having that experience allows me to have. empathy for the people I worked with, who I would always say, "Yeah, I. understand," but I never knew what it. was like to be on the global stage like. that. I never knew what criticism like. that felt like. And like I told you, the biggest gift. that I got from that was understanding. that all the praise I had received up. until that moment. was not deserved. And all the hate I got.

after that moment was not deserved cuz. none of these people knew me. Yeah. She didn't know me. This person didn't. know me. This person who met me three. times, they didn't know me. I can show respect for all of them cuz I. don't know them. So, I can love them. where they're at. But the gift of. pain. was awareness. And. the other part I was going through very. something very personal shortly after I. was going through the divorce, my.

marriage, and all these different. things, and it just felt like one after. another. But I look back if those didn't things. didn't happen, I I really think they're. all gifts cuz when when something's. fair, you don't respect it. When something happens to you that you. feel is fair, you're just like, "Oh, I I. deserve that." You move on. You feel. justified cuz you saw it coming. When something happens to you that feels. deeply unfair, and you can't fix it, then you really got to look at.

everything. and realize. the role you played in this or maybe. this or that or who do you want to be or. how to. so. I'm grateful. But how does one contend. with an unfair world? And I use the word. unfair as well because you know, we've. got investigative research here who. looked through everything relating to. that particular deal. And then we also. looked at what's written on the internet. and there's this great disparity between. what actually happened and what people. say happened. And. there's actually I think there's a. documentary out there which goes into it.

in great detail which Andrew Schultz was. talking talking about on a podcast which. I saw so I looked at that documentary as. well. I mean look, I'm grateful for a. couple of things. One, my kids were. really young when it happened so they. didn't feel it as much. Yeah. It was very hard at the time. It was. hard on the marriage. It was hard on the. family. You got your just desserts. Yeah, but I also don't know what was. being said on the other side, you know, cuz I never got to have the. conversation. You know, so I think when people aren't. communicating and refusing to. communicate, a lot of things can get. misconstrued and you can you know, I. don't want to hold any hatred or.

we everyone moves on, you know, so yes, I appreciate you saying that. I. appreciate actually doing the research. But for me. I choose to see it as a gift. I choose. to see it as being able to have a. perspective that very few people in the. world have. Of knowing what that's like. Of feeling that on a global level. Pain. Yeah. And also just. What does that mean in in reality?

When you It just felt unfair. It felt. like it put so much but course of course. it happened to me, right? Of course. because here I was thinking my value was. from all this praise. You know, and I and everything was me. making sure that I was living up to it. And then this happens and it's unfair. and I can't control it and of course the. universe was like screaming at me. Like. God screaming at me like, hey wake up. You're not in control. You can't. navigate all of this.

You don't get to decide what your legacy. is and you you just get to decide who. you are on a daily basis and who you. choose to see in yourself and how you. treat the people that love you and the. people you can actually interact with. Surrender. But surrender and participate. You know, that's the big thing for me. It's more than just surrender. It's. surrender and participate and just enjoy. the ride. That's why I got the tattoo. You know, it was. I can't worry about everyone's niece.

being mad at me. You know, you know, it it's what I got to do is is. show up for my niece, you know, and I got to show up for my. friends and my family and I wish. everyone involved across the board, whether I know them or not, nothing but. good wishes. When I say specifically that pain, people don't like I think about how many. people on Earth have experienced such a. thing. And if you if I could be a fly on. the wall that is actually just has CCTV. for eyes.

and I was watching you that moment in. time. just for 7 days I got to watch Scooter. What would I have seen? Like I said, at that point I hadn't. really done the work. Okay. Um. So, resistance. Resistance, trying to navigate it, trying to understand it. Trying to. um figure out how to fix it. And then I couldn't what then I did. financially. Like I couldn't fix the. relationship that I didn't have. But then I was able to figure out, okay, you know what?

We will sell it. You know, in a in a world of streaming. re-records will only help the old. catalog as much as they help the new. catalog. Both will get a bump. I. presented that. I showed, you know, how. everyone can be a winner here and I was. able to sell the catalog and. I I don't want to go into too much. detail, but I but I offered it it's at. now come out very factually that I did. offer it. There's. evidence of that multiple times in that. process. They said no. I sold it to someone else.

and I washed my hands of it and moved. on. And I actually sometimes look back at it. and I go, "The universe was trying to. teach me something." And I navigated out. of it. I found a way out. So then the universe went, "Oh man, we. tried to try to give you a warning sign. We tried to like you're you're sailing. by the Titanic and we're waving like. iceberg.". And then the universe said, "Okay, you. really didn't pay attention and you. still aren't doing the work? Marriage.". Cuz that one got me.

That one got me to pay attention. Losing my kids 50% of the time, that one changed everything. And. the world, that still couldn't move me. I was still able to figure out the. chessboard. But my kids and my marriage, that one rocked me. and woke me up. What's really crazy is when I told you I. did this Hoffman process,

I won't tell you the process cuz you're. not supposed to, but I can tell you at. the end of the week. Then you could give it context for. anyone that doesn't know though. The Hoffman process is this one week no. phone, no email. Um intense work on your early childhood. to understand why you are the way you. are. And give you tools to go out in the. world. and understand yourself. The reason I went, October of 2020, my marriage was falling. apart. The whole world thought I was. crushing it. Ariana's crushing it. This.

Justin's All these people like we're on. fire. And. I had a suicidal thought for 20 minutes. Where I was like, "If my marriage is. going to fall apart, I'm not going to be. with my kids all the time. I can't. control this. I'm not going to be this. perfect image that I've presented to the. world. And if I can't be this perfect image, I. don't want to be here. And it went to a very dark place. And. after 20 minutes, I said, "What the hell. was that? That's not me. I would never. leave my kids. I don't only like leave. anybody. Like what was that?" And the.

next morning, I was on the set of a video shoot. And a friend of mine called, and he. said, "You know, what's going on with. you?". And I told him. I told him about that. night before. He called me back with. another friend, and they said, "You need. to go to Hoffman." We did it. It changed. our life. They told me that they could get me in. in 2 weeks cuz there was a cancellation. October 24th, and that was the release. of Ariana Grande's Dangerous Woman. album. It was the busiest week of the. year for me in work. And I started laughing in the parking.

lot of this video shoot. And she goes, "Do you want us to pick another week?" I. said, "No.". I said, "I've spent my whole life. pursuing these things, doing this, choosing this, choosing Scooter, choosing that life, choosing the. clients. And I'm at the top of my game, yet I. wanted to kill myself last night. Something's got to change. And I. chose to go to that place instead. And the hard stuff actually came after I. got out of Hoffman. You know, I ended up going through a. divorce. I ended up going through all.

these different stuff. But I never was depressed again. And. the most interesting thing that happened. on the other side of it is. 6 years ago, I was biggest manager and the perfect. marriage and you know, everything I. touched turned to gold, and there was no. negative press about me ever. 6 years later, I'm divorced. I don't. manage anymore. I've had negative press. And I couldn't be happier. It doesn't mean it doesn't ebb and flow,

but. I get to be the dad I've always wanted. to be and the friend I've always wanted. to be. And it doesn't mean that things. aren't going to go, you know, be hard, and I'm going to say suffer more things. and go through them. But I'm in a place. that I understand amor fati. It's like. everything is a gift and. I'm being super long-winded, but that's. the story. That phone call the day after that to. your friends. Yeah. Did you tell him the truth on the phone? The full truth? Yeah, I did. And what was that full truth? That I had the night before.

thought about. you know, just shutting it all off. It. wasn't even an idea that I wanted to. die. I just wanted the noise in my head. to go away. I wanted the failure, the. disappointment, the fear. I was going to fail in my mind. I. couldn't control it. I'd always been. able to navigate out of failure. and head towards success, a pit stop. But. I had left what I found at Hoffman I. told you is my name, the inner child at. the Scott. I had built this mask so big. I wanted.

to feel like me again. And I didn't realize how far away I I'd. gotten from that. Building up this armor, building up the. mask. You know, I I I want to tell you something funny. I usually don't say names in these. things, but I want to give him credit. cuz I think it's hilarious. Michael Rapinoe is the CEO of Live. Nation. He's an amazing guy. I think. he's one of the most impressive people. in the entire entertainment. entertainment industry because. he wields so much power, but he also. empowers other people so well. And after the divorce, after.

you know, the big machine and and stuff. that happened with that, all these. different things and you know what. Michael told me? He goes, "I like you a. lot more now cuz you seem human.". You know, and he told me he was like, "Before he's like, nobody goes on like. it's like this." He's like, "Yeah, you. know, I just didn't" He goes He goes, "I. didn't think you were real. I thought. you were full of shit.". And. he was right. I mean, it I didn't know. myself cuz I had no reason to do so. And it wasn't until I had some real. hardships and real pain and real scares.

and real rock bottom moments. that I started looking at myself and. started figuring out who I was. And then, everyone got to know me. Uh my best. friends since I was 11 years old, they're the people I hang out with the. most. Um. two of them live out here, Mike and Vuk. And I hang out with them all the time. And people who know me, they know these. guys because they've been my friends. since we were 12 years old, 11 years. old. And. Mike and Vuk told me, at 40 years old,

when I was doing this work, "We've known you since you were 11, and. this is the most we've ever known you.". And I'm not surprised or insulted cuz. they say, "You haven't changed, but we. didn't know you.". Because I was always, even to them, presenting. what I thought they needed me to be, perfect. And then I broke. And then I said, "This happened, and. this happened. When I was a kid, this. was going on, and this was going. And they were like,

"We love you.". And I really became one of the boys for. the first time in my life. I became one. of the boys. because the boys became vulnerable. I thought it was the opposite my whole. life. I thought you had to be cool, you. had to be tough to be one of the boys. And it was funny because they didn't All. the achievements, not only did they not give a [ __ ] about, I probably lost touch with them more so. And when everything fell apart, they. were the ones that were there, the ones. who knew Scott, the ones who didn't care. about any of it. And I've never really even said that out.

loud to this extent until right now. And I'm actually glad I get to say on. here both their names. Because they. They have. They picked me up. in a in a really, really tough time. And. a time where I couldn't even look at my. own brothers cuz I was too ashamed. And um. And I never felt like one of the guys. Like I felt like I had those friends, but I just couldn't let them all the way.

in because I felt, well, maybe I'm. smarter or maybe I'm this maybe I need. to be perfect and it wasn't till. I really hit rock bottom that I realized. that they always had my back and I made. all these stupid ideas in my head and. they were. they were there. and. they weren't there for Scooter. You know, they were there for Scott and. I see you getting a little emotional too. because you probably have the same type. of friends. So I'll I did it so you can.

do it too. What what are their names? Uh. Michael. Ash. Dom. Anthony and Oliver. But they are they're they're the. constant they're the they're there. through everything the up the down the. up the down the up the down again. And they don't give a crap about any of. this. In fact, if your friends are like mine. they're brutal about this stuff. My friends rip me. like. if people saw the text messages between.

us, they would think we hate each other. Um but we love each other deeply and and. the best part about the messages is the. random "Hey guys, I love you.". You know, it happens all the time. I'll. get a phone call, I'll pick up, I'll. just see Paul. "Hey brother, I love you. Just wanted to call and tell you.". I'm really grateful. Like I have so many. different people I can name. And what was really interesting is. before all this happened, I don't know. if you can relate to this, but. I spent so much time.

trying to impress people who didn't want. to love me. instead of realizing how many people. already did. I was just thinking what a great shame. it is that the amount of units of energy. we exert on as you said like the. external like the audience whereas. when you ask me who would be there for. me irrespective of what was going on in. my life. I can name them and then I ask myself. how much energy and effort am I putting. into these relationships? And I'm.

embarrassed about how much energy and. effort I'm putting into these. relationships. I'm like embarrassed by. it. I'm like that makes me a scumbag. They'll still be there. Yeah, they don't care. Yeah. Yeah, and and that's the best part cuz. when you do start putting that energy it. becomes even more fun. It's really it's really um. it's really difficult for me to. understand, and this is my naivety, the. part that's difficult for me to. understand is you family meant so much. to you. Didn't you Don't you have a. tattoo that says family? First one. You were 18.

You got a tattoo at 18 about your future. family. Correct. So family has been this like. dream and ambition of yours. Mhm. So it's surprising to me, as someone who. is naive in this context, that some it had to be threatened for. you to care. enough to. cared. I just uh. Childhood trauma's a hell of a thing, man. Yeah. It's um and we all have it. That was the. thing. The reason I didn't think I had. it is because I had friends. who, you know, had parents who were.

alcoholics. I had friends who had. parents who this. So I always thought, you know, both my parents are here, they. love me, like the stuff I dealt with, that's not real. You know, I come from an immigrant. family. Like we can deal with this. Like we're strong. You know, that's not. real. And what I realized is. everyone has trauma. That's the human. experience. And the faster we value our own trauma. and stop trying to downplay it because. we don't think it equals someone else's, the more we can work on ourselves. Mhm. Cuz all you get to do is work on.

yourself. You don't get to work on the. other person. Yeah. Like you can really only work on. yourself. You can help the other person, but the work, that's only here. And. I think that I saw my life as perfect. So why change anything? And that's why you're smiling. So stop calling me out. Yeah, you're smiling. true. It's so true. see your life is. perfect and she's screaming at you. She's screaming at you and trying to and. you can't see it. She's not screaming just yet. She is.

increasingly. expressing to me and yeah, in her own. way that there is. an issue and I I'm going to be. completely honest cuz this is why I. started this podcast with the diary of a. CEO. So, this is what will be written in. my diary. The alarm is getting louder. and I'm still in a state where I think. I've got a a lot of time before the. alarm is so loud that I can't fix it. I got you. I see you, buddy. Trust me, I see And here's the funny. thing. I don't want to go into details. I have.

a lot of respect. We're family forever. It goes both ways. It's not like there. was one thing happen it both people have. to play a role in where we got to. You know, things happen on you know, both ways. However, Chris Rock says something really. special. He goes, "Relationships are. actually quite easy. You know, you ever try to pick up a. couch with two people? No problem. Pick up a couch by yourself.". And that was the thing. We we both went. to pick up the couch at different times.

And. we were made to be amazing co-parents. We were made to come into each other's. lives to help each other be better in. different ways through the heartbreak of. our relationship ending and we were we. were brought together to make three. incredible souls. And now, whoever gets me next is in for. a treat. Cuz I'm a better version than I was. before. And in hindsight, what are those warning. signs for someone like me who might be.

The choices that you make that you. justify. Oh, I got to do this because, you know, if I don't do this one, it could all. fall apart. No, it isn't. Oh, god. You know, I if I don't if I don't. stop everything I'm doing and choose. this, it could all fall apart or. yeah, okay you're saying this to me but. you don't really mean it because you. don't understand what I'm going through. cuz I'm in this grind I'm in this hunt. that you no one can understand cuz only. I can achieve this. You're smiling cuz. you literally.

Can I ask you some questions? How long you guys been together? Uh 6 years now. And why you smiling so big? Cuz how many. times have you made those choices? just justified [ __ ] and there's. always going to I know logically going. to be something else. There's always there's never going to be. a perfect time. So I know logically that. I have to pick in perfect moments. And do you guys want kids? Yes. Do you use that as an excuse well the. kids aren't here yet so I need to grind. now?

I've I've I've certainly thought it as a. way to justify to myself to. self-rationalize. I don't think I've. ever said that to her but I have said to. her I've said internally. Yeah yeah I've. said it to myself internally. I've said. to myself like this season of life up. until I'm 35 I'm going to go for it and. then at 35 I'm going to chill. And then she you know she's looking at. you thinking I want to be able to trust. you to have children. Yeah. Yeah. Listen. A long time ago someone really smart.

ran this little exercise with me. And I wish I would have paid better. attention to it other than just thinking. it was a cool saying to like use in the. office. He said. if I told you someone you loved was sick. and you had a billion dollars how much. of it would you spend to save them? A billion dollars, yeah. Correct. And he says. is your loved one. is she healthy? Does she love you? Is she here with you right now?

Everything you're working to achieve. with that perspective you already have. it. Yeah. And they said it to me and it sounds. great and I'm seeing it on your face. You're smart guy it's logical you're. like yeah I get it. And then you're. going to go repeat the same stuff. because that's what we do. And what I realized when I went and did. this work was it's not going to change. between you and her or me and my ex. You know, that wasn't what it was about. It was actually something deeper, deeper. underlying that had nothing to do with. the current relationship. It had to do.

with that lie that I'm not enough, that. this person actually doesn't really love. me unless I do this. Were you happy before the marriage fell. apart? I think so, but I also didn't know who I. was. I think I was happy because. everyone in the world told me. I was doing great. And I thought that. that was enough and I I feel like. looking back now, I feel like I was. asleep at the wheel. I feel like I didn't know myself at the. time. And but I had so much success at such a.

young age, so everyone was telling me I. was doing great. So I just chose to. believe them. And it wasn't till I, you know, the. foundation broke and there was nothing. underneath it that I was like, oh [ __ ]. I'm actually not happy. And I never knew. And it's like I. wouldn't go back to that before all the. crap. in a million years. I want to stay here. cuz now I'm like I'm a I'm awake. What is the the practical advice you'd. give me because you can identify where. I'm at in your own story. So what is the. practical advice you'd give me now.

to avoid myself getting to a situation. where one day I have regret because I. didn't listen to the alarm? Couple things. Okay. Number one, turn the cameras off and go. do some self-work. Stop being nudged. Just go do it. Stop being, with all due respect, a. [ __ ]. Okay. I appreciate it. And um. Is that what my group chat. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it it's just there's. no good time in the future. There's no. when I get to 35, when I get to 36, when. I get to 40. There's when I achieve. this.

Go do it. One to two weeks out of the year will. not kill you. It will only make you. stronger. Because what you're dealing with, what. what you're telling me has nothing to do. with the two of you. It has more to do. with your stuff and she has to go do her. stuff. She you have to see if she wants. to go do the same thing and and work on. herself in the same way. Cuz it's a. constant thing. The second thing is. go on vacations together and when the. kids come go on vacation That's. something I think we we forgot to do. We. did the vacations with the kids. We did. the vacations with friends, but we. didn't do vacations together cuz we were.

so we had three kids in five years. Yeah. And I think um. you know, that's something I think. about. But then. also just trust that like if it's. supposed to be it's supposed to be. My journey was supposed to be exactly. the way it was. Even the when I found out things and she. found out that like. about ourselves, it was exactly when we. were supposed to find out. So, I just. I'm a firm believer. you know, you're here to learn exactly. what you're supposed to learn. Have you. ever read Many Lives, Many Masters? No. By Brian Weiss?

No. Easy quick read on a weekend. You'll. enjoy the hell out of it. Um Brian Weiss. was the head of psychology at University. of Miami. and he was recommended a nurse from the. hospital would he see her. And he saw. her and she had deep trauma and couldn't. figure it out. So, he goes, "We're going. to do hypnotic regression.". She does hypnotic regression. She goes. into something from like age zero to six. that she couldn't remember. Very. traumatizing. He's like, "Oh, this will. make a difference." She comes back the. next week. It's even worse. That makes. no sense to him. He does hypnotic. regression again and she goes into a.

past life. He calls [ __ ]. He does another hypnotic regression. She. goes into another past life and he. realizes her educational background. could not know the things that she's. saying that he's looking up. So, what happens is he just writes a. book about this patient and how she. changed his entire practice. And what was really interesting about it. is. it made me look at death differently and. life differently. We're here to learn. and then if we don't figure it out we. leave and we come back again and if we. learn that one we come back and it's.

transitions and but it's never it's not. ending. It's all about coming here to learn. But. I feel like I have so much to learn and. at least I know that and I'm such a mess. and I'm figuring it out every single day. that if Brian Weiss's book is right, I'm. not going anywhere for a while. But it's really amazing way to look and. what was interesting is when I told my. mom I read it when I told my dad. he actually goes, "Well, you know, we're. Jews. We don't believe in. reincarnation." And when I started. studying Kabbalah.

I realized that actually Kabbalah. teaches reincarnation almost the exact. same way this woman was describing it. which means Judeo-Christians. actually believe in reincarnation but. many of us don't know it. Um and it was just a really interesting. way of looking at life. Do you believe in reincarnation? I do. You do? Yeah, I do. Especially after reading. this book and then studying Kabbalah and. I started studying Kabbalah about a year. ago. Um. I like. some of the principles I've learned from. Kabbalah about this idea of.

being a custodian. That. nothing is actually ours. Yeah. But we're custodians. You know, that um. God Hashem is what they say in Kabbalah. But um this idea that we're supposed to. give 10% to charity but no more than 20. You know, because the belief is if God. is giving you this, he's asking you to. hold on to it because he has a purpose. for you. But if he chooses to take it. away, you should be just as joyful cuz. it was never yours in the first place. You were a custodian. And I think that's a really great way of.

looking at materials, looking at life. and understanding like I said, participating. And I'm getting to play. in this game. But you have your moments, right? Yeah. Still today? Because you're someone. that's done so much work. So it's it's interesting speaking to you. because you're someone that I would seek. advice on in everything in my life but. you still have work left to do. You said. there, "I still have things left to. learn.". Well, I think I have a lot of things. left to learn. I find myself. sometimes needing to defend myself,

sometimes not defending myself when I. should. I feel like sometimes I feel. misunderstood or not loved and I. I have you know, have that moment and. then even on the other side there's. times where you feel like oh, you're. doing all this work and people see you. as someone who's done the work and then. you don't want to be seen as someone. who's failing at that work and the truth. is. that's all part of the process. It's. like a constant surrender to your. your human experience. The work for me is. life is going to throw the things you.

need at you. So like I said, tomorrow. something could happen that you know, I'm being ridiculed again and I'm having. to learn again, you know, or a praise. could come and I'm having to learn how. to handle that. Like I don't know what. tomorrow's going to bring. It's always a. new experiment, but it's almost as if. like when you're doing this work people. call it. it's as if you're swimming in the waves. and now you have the skills to get. through the wave. The waves still come, but you're just. going through them differently. Do you. wish they wouldn't come? Hell no, that's. life.

You know, I I asked. you said I had a company Ithaca. Do you know where it comes from? No. So, some people think they're like oh, Ithaca, New York? No. It comes from a poem by Cavafy. Um I asked David Geffen. uh years ago. with his extraordinary life and career, when did he feel like it was like. enough? I was 30 years old when I met him and I. asked him that question the first meal.

we ever had. And he looked at me and he said, that's not how life works. It goes up. and down this that and he goes, I want. you to read a poem. And he gives me Ithaca by Cavafy. And. I named my holding company. I had SB. Projects, but then when I did the. holding company and started doing other. things too, I named it after this poem. cuz I was so moved by it. And the. concept of the poem Ithaca is you're on. the way to the island of Ithaca in the. Greek Islands. And along the way, you're going to see. so many different things.

And you're going to meet scholars, and. you're going to, you know, learn wisdom. and all these different things. And when. you find Ithaca finally, if you find her. poor, she did not fool you. Cuz it was never about the destination. Always about the journey. And I think right now, if there if I get to this end game with. you, like that's no fun then it's over. So, like keep the waves coming. Bad skin, always had it, and I'm sure. many of you listening have had it, too. Or maybe you have it right now.

I know how draining it can be, especially if you're in a job where. you're presenting often, like I am. So, let me tell you about something that's. helped both my partner and me and my. sister, which is red light therapy. I. only got into this a couple of years. ago, but I wish I'd known a little bit. sooner. I've been using our show. sponsors Bon Charge's infrared sauna. blanket for a while now, but I just got. hold of their red light therapy mask, as. well. Red light has been proven to have. so many benefits for the body. Like any. area of your skin that's exposed will. see a reduction in scarring, wrinkles, and even blemishes. It also helps with.

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one night, and my lovely girlfriend was. up at 1:00 a.m. in the morning pulling. her hair out as she tried to piece. together her own online store for her. business. And in that moment, I. remembered an email I'd had from a guy. called John, the founder of Stand Store, our new sponsor, and a company I've. invested incredibly heavily in. And Stan. Store helps creators to sell digital. products, courses, coaching, and. memberships all through a simple, customizable link in bio system. And it. handles everything, payments, bookings,

emails, community engagement, and even. links with Shopify. And I believe in it. so much that I'm going to launch a Stan. challenge. And as part of this. challenge, I'm going to give away. $100,000 to one of you. If you want to. take part in this challenge, if you want. to monetize the knowledge that you have, visit stevenbartlett.stan.store. to sign up. And you'll also get an. extended 30-day free trial of Stan Store. if you use that link. Your next move. could quite frankly change everything. I I told Daniel Ek that I was.

interviewing you. a couple of months ago, and he sat me. down in his LA office and was like, "I've got to tell you a story about that. Scooter Braun guy. I've got to tell you. something." He said that when he made. the Forbes under 30 list, when he was a. young man in I think Stockholm, Sweden, he said he randomly got a phone call out. of the blue from you. And you had decided. to call everybody on the Forbes 30 under. 30 list. Billboard. Oh, the Billboard. It's Billboard 30 under 30. Oh, I thought it was Fo- Forbes. And you. decided to call all every single person.

on the list just to introduce yourself. Yeah. I When I heard that, I thought, "Fucking. wow.". You know why I know why? Why? Cuz every single time I met someone very. accomplished. and successful, and they wanted to help me, they'd say, "Well, who are you trying to. reach?" And they'd say, "Oh my gosh, I've known them for 20 years, 30 years.". And they would pick up the phone call, and their power. was in relationship. that was expansive.

and and long, and they knew each other. from the beginning. Not that they had. met some powerful club at the end. Mhm. And what I realized was. the real power is in community. And. I wanted to know my peers. I wanted to grow with them, that we. didn't need to go and find someone who. already had it. We needed to support. each other. How old were you when you did that? 27. So, you were 27 and you called everybody. on that list? Yeah. Such a cool thing to do. So many people.

are now going to go do that. But it's such a cool thing to do. By the way, I am an early investor in Spotify. because of that phone call. He was just I'm sure he told you this. He was just a company in Sweden. He didn't tell me this part. Oh, yeah. He was just And when I called. him, he was you know, they were talking. about this new thing, Spotify, but it. was in Sweden. And. we met and I tried to get in right away. after we met cuz I was like, "What is. this?" And. and he didn't let me in at first. And. then, you know, I went and met Shaq.

Oh, Shaq. Good friend of mine. I met Shaq in London. We walked around. and then D.A. Wallach was like advising. them and um I ended up getting be a. significant, you know, investor at that. point in my life in this, you know, new. young company, Spotify, and I have not. sold a share in probably 18 years. You haven't sold a share? No, I'm a firm believer in that company. and I'm a firm believer in Daniel. And I and I think. listen, I hear all the time where people. are like, "Oh, look, you know,

this is so unfair.". Daniel Ek, with his bravery and his. foresight, saved the music industry. He gave value to our industry again. He found a way to make us. go from going in one direction to the. most successful we've ever been. And I don't think people realize that. and give him enough credit for what he. did. People don't understand the machine. They just think, "Well, record sales went away and now we've got. this streaming fee and it's lower." So, what is the context we're missing there?

What did he What did that company do? It gave value to our business. It gave, you know, uh multiples on publishing and masters. that we'd never seen before because now. everyone's music can be heard and heard. for a long time. You know, at the time Daniel came along, all I would hear going in the music. business is, "Man, you missed the '80s. and '90s. Sorry, kid.". You know, this business is going down. You know, and Daniel with streaming. made it so that, you know, these these major labels and.

these independent companies and, you know, these artists are able to do. things they've never been able to do. before. One, on bringing that amount of. revenue to our business, but two, also bringing our global community. together. And, uh, and that was Daniel's foresight. and his vision. and his, uh, I mean, he didn't have any. relationships. He didn't know the major. labels. Crazy, isn't it? he he. he saved the music industry. And I think. now that, you know, he's the biggest.

thing in the music industry, it's easy. to point at him as like the big bad old. And yes, he's always trying to innovate. and change, but he has brought more. money back into our industry than we. ever thought would be there. And, um, and I'm grateful to him. And I think he. he saved a lot of careers. I also would like to. add a couple of words to that just to. say what an unbelievably. humble, smart, kind human being he is. Mhm. It's an. impossible story for it for to do what. he did out of Stockholm as well, not.

Silicon Valley, and for it to be the. dominant platform and still to be the. best platform. Even as a podcaster, it's. my favorite platform by far. And they've. just decided in the last 2 to 3 months, which is actually why I was over at. Spotify's office to meet him, that they're going to start paying. podcasters revenue that we've never been. paid before. They're going to cut us in. on the Spotify membership fee, which. means that, again, it's going to fuel. this whole industry. Apple aren't paying. us anything, but Spotify have decided to. pay podcasters who upload on video, which is going to mean that people can. quit their jobs and. And Daniel's a very innovative guy, and.

I remember him as the kid I called on. that list. And who, when he came to the United. States a couple weeks later, played me. in ping pong eight times. You know, and that's how we became. friends. And um. he's incredibly humble, incredibly. smart, incredibly hard working. And. he has changed a lot of people's lives. What's next for you, Scooter? Should I. call you Scott or Scooter? Either one. I'm proud of both now.

Okay. I'm going to call you Scott. Okay. What's. What is next in If we sit here in 10. years time, do you have any idea what. that chapter look like? Or do you have any idea what would have. had to have happened for you to consider. it a success? The only thing I want to make sure is. that. you know, I stay I want to be the father. to my children, right? That I That I. want to be. That I continue That that's. the thing. Like that's the one. consistent thing. I want to make sure. that I put them first, that they are my. priority. Cuz I get them until they're 18, and. then.

you know, they're going to be like, "Dad, we're out.". Yes. Um and I'm still going to obviously look. forward to the next chapter, but. um. I got 10 years of that. I think. something I'm excited about in the next. chapter is like, what does love look. like? What does relationship look like? Um and. then I'm excited to be a rookie again, and try new things, and get into. industries, cuz I I said to you before. we started taping, you know, you asked me about AI. And I said, I feel like we're in the. beginning of an industrial revolution. and a cold war at the same time.

But there's just so much opportunity cuz. things are shifting, and things are. moving, and we're becoming a more. productive society. Because like you, I've gotten to see. some of the things that are coming on. the technology side, and it's. mind-blowing. What's coming. And it's. mind-blowing what's already happening. that people A lot of people don't even. realize. And the innovation is going to. get faster and faster and faster. And I think the one thing that will. never go away is humans want for taste,

for human error, for experiences. You know, if anything during COVID, we. saw national parks explode. People had time for experiences. I think. AI is going to make us more productive. We're going to have more time for. experiences. And I'm excited for that. And I'm excited for what that world. looks like. And I think there will. always be growing pains when there's. change. But on the other side, societies. have always been measured by. productivity, not by wealth. How. productive is that society? We're about to be the most productive. society we've ever been. It's quite It is quite scary, but it's.

also extremely exciting. And I think I. think both responses are quite natural. I think excitement's often present where. fear is. And um. I The choice that I'm personally just. making is to lean in and to mess around. and to learn. When we spoke earlier, you were telling. me that you'll stay up all night long. like learning how to code with AI, and. you're trying to understand all the AI. tools that are in front of us. You can. kind of be first cuz you feel like, you. know, you weren't at the right place in. the dot-com boom, and you want to make. sure that you're in there. Can I ask you.

what you consider success? Is it you. don't want to miss out? Like what what. is the success? Why do you feel like you. want to not miss out? What do you want. to be first to? If you if you achieve. something on the other side because you. actually master AI and you are one of. the first, what are you hoping happens? So, I think I'm trying I'm running from. a fear, and the fear is. I'm 32 now, and I've I've been. playing at the frontier my whole life.

So, like, my first business was in. social media. I rode that wave into. shore. It changed my life. I was. relevant. It made me feel great. I built. on on that frontier as the wave came. into shore. Then the blockchain came. around, started a company called. Thirdweb, valued $160 million. It was. amazing. I was on the frontier. Then. this AI thing comes along, and it feels. like the wave is coming in, and I'm I've. got a surfboard, and I've got to decide. whether I want to take this wave or not. And if I feel like if I miss the wave, if I'm not involved, if I'm not building. there, then. it's quite existential. It's like.

then. I don't know what can happen, and I. don't like that. I don't like the unknown. And it goes back to many things we. talked about, but you're a swimmer in. the ocean. Yes. I'm not the best swimmer in the. world. I'm saying, but you'll go in the ocean. Yeah. Not just on the beach, will you go out. in the ocean and get in the water? If I have my floating vest on cuz I. can't I can't swim. Which is interesting though, you'll get. in though. Yeah, yeah, 100%. I have a a top I wear to go in the deep. ocean. that, but I I find it interesting only.

because the ocean is a place where you. have absolutely no control. Mhm. You know, it's the ocean can do what it. want. You don't know what's in there. You know, a lot of people like I see. when they want control, I realized there. were years that I kind of just didn't. swim in the ocean. I swim on the beach, but I didn't really. want to go into the ocean because I. didn't have control out there. And I didn't know what it was in there. I didn't know what could get me. I. didn't like I couldn't see it coming. I. couldn't control the outcome. And you talk a lot about this the need. for control that makes you feel. uncomfortable.

But you are also a very big risk-taker. I mean, you're 32 years old. You've. achieved all this. You're pushing yourself to find out. more. You're defying all the odds. You. got the kid from home who's still. talking crap because you know what look. at everything that you're doing. And and I I guess I'm I'm intrigued. because. one, you don't give yourself the credit. of how much you go into the unknown. It's almost like you do it out of fear. and necessity. But I'm really pushing you on like. what does success look like for you?

Because you're on the surfboard and you. keep surfing. I'm trying to figure out. like where where is what is success to. you? Is it. You're you're 90 years old. and you're looking back at your life. What are the things that you could not. live without? You'd be disappointed if. they weren't there. I imagine it's going to be my kids. I. imagine it's going to be my relationship. with my partner. I think that's the going back to. This sounds like a crazy thing to say, but if there was a button on the table. and I had to press it to kill myself or. my partner, I'd press to kill myself.

And that was a really clarifying thought. for me because I was like, I'd literally. take my I'd give my life to save this. person, this other human being. My. nieces, my brother, um my fam my fam my my family. I'm confused cuz you haven't named all. the achievements of AI. You haven't named, you know, all the. things that you think you need to do. You know the um Ithaca? Yeah. Part of what I think makes the journey.

exciting is being like slightly. terrified and having something that. consumes you and that challenges you and. that scares you a little bit and and. building and experimenting and leaning. in. Like when I was a kid, in my. bedroom, I'd turn my bunk bed into a. business. It'd be a salon one week and. then the next week I'd be. dismantling my brother's radio and start. trying to sell the parts and like so. I've always been extremely curious, extremely experimental. I've always. tried to build things. So, I think that's my fun, but I also I. These days, more I've done this podcast,

the more I've learned to like question. myself. Question what I'm saying. Listen, I think. you're an incredibly intriguing guy. That's why I wanted to meet you. And I. love how much you push yourself and you. question things. But I find it very interesting that when. I asked you about your '90s and when you. look back, you named things that are very. attainable to you cuz you found someone. that loves you and you love them. Yeah. And then when we're talking throughout. this entire conversation,

it seems that when you actually open. about your personal life, you spend a lot of your time avoiding. that thing. and focusing on all these others that. make you feel worthy to experience that. thing. Mhm. And I I guess like what I'm just trying. to say to you for as a smart a guy as. you are, this is coming from someone who. literally suffered from the same thing. Mhm. The thing that you want the most at 90, you got. It's true.

The building in your room and the. building with AI should be just fun. Mhm. It shouldn't be terrifying anymore. It. should be fun because the terrifying. thing is turning 90 and not having the. thing you really want. That's when I woke up. And. So, what does that mean for me? And what. what did for anyone that can resonate. with that, what does that mean that they. should do? I know you said like turn off. the cameras and but can you do both? I don't know. I think everyone's journey. is different. I think everyone.

experiences things in a different way. Some people are able to like you talked. about with addiction, some people are. able to say just stop. And other people. can't. And other people have to go. through a different process to get. there. So, I'm trying to understand the balance. though. Like how do I know if I've got. the balance right in that regard? Oh, I hate that word because uh someone. I really admired said to me harmonize. You know, um. So, how do I know if that's. Jeff Bezos was the one who said it. He. was like don't balance things, harmonize. Why why weigh things that you. love against each other? You love. building in your room. You love learning.

things and building things. You love that. You love your partner and. you want to build a family with her one. day. It's not about balance, it's about. putting them together. Bring her into every aspect of it. Bring. her into the fears that you have with. this. Bring her into, you know, that's. what I I you know, I didn't know that. You know, it's it's bring every aspect. of your life together and share and let. them be with the up and downs and you do. do the up and downs and kind of go. across the board. And then also, like I.

said, do the work to find out why you. ask all these questions, but still with. all the nudging that's happened, do the. work to find out why you're so afraid to. actually turn off the camera and just do. it. So, you're saying then to get out of. like competition and get into that. curiosity that you described. You said. about these two states that you can. investigate. I I think being competitive is always a. beautiful thing if used in the right. way. I love that. But, I will say to you. when you talk to me about where the AI. staying up at night, where building your.

company came from, it was a kid building. in his room. Mhm. That kid wasn't competing with anyone. He was having fun in his room. He was. building. That's when you're at your best. It's when you're actually just building. for the joy of building. And I think along the way, based on our. fears, based on the I'm not enough, based on all these different things, we. start to take that thing that brought us. joy, and we start to think, if I don't crush. it, now that people are watching me do.

it, I'm not good at it. And. you're asking me for like this question. is almost if it's like advice. I'm trying to figure it out the same. time you are. Yeah. You know, so I guess. I'll pose it back to you. You've done research. You know a little. bit about my life. What would you say to me? What should I. be doing next? What do you think I. should be nudged to do?

I think what you're what you've done. today. is some of the most valuable work that. you can do. And what I say today, I mean is as. you've sat here and the vulnerability. that you've expressed, the honesty, the. nuance to certain points. I think it's. one of the most important things you can. do because many of us don't get to climb. up to the top of the mountain top and. see what's up there. And you're choosing. to go up there and then shout back down. about your marriage, about business, about your mental health. and everything in between, about.

mistakes you've made, injustices, all. these kinds of things. Probably one of. the most powerful things you can do. because as you you've identified, there'll be a couple of kids, maybe me. being one, who will. not have to be burnt, not have to hit. the rock bottom to learn the lesson. And. there's actually very few people, I do. this for a living, there's very few. people that have. both that experience and the ability to. articulate it in a way that is resonant. In terms of this next season of your. life, I mean, you're doing so much well, like. you.

It was so nice actually hearing you on. the phone to your kids yesterday. When. they came over and it was like, "Dad, I. want a pencil." or whatever he was. saying. And you were like, "Steven." You said to. me, "I've got to" You hung up the phone. and you you addressed your kids, you. called me back in 10 seconds. And I. thought there was something really. special and telling that you were. willing to end a phone call with someone. and put the phone away and immediately. be present with your child to have a. conversation with him, to have a. conversation then call me back straight. away. Most people don't do that. So, I. thought, "Okay, he's really This really. means a lot to him in this season.". You know, when when you just said to me.

what I did here today, Yeah. I smiled cuz I was being really honest. with myself and I really appreciated you. saying that. But I also smiled cuz I was being honest. with myself of how funny it is that when. I leave here, all I've been doing lately when I'm away. from my kids. is thinking of what do I build next. so I can show my value. I'm going back. to that old habit cuz I'm excited to. build something else. But when I'm being. really deep, honest with myself, really. going deep, it comes from this place of.

well, if I can do it again, then I'll show them. This time will be the one that I'm happy. about. This time will be like it's that. same old thing that comes every single. time. And I still want to build. something cuz I get joy out of that. But same while I'm giving you this. advice, when you said that to me, I. went, "Oh, man. He's right. This is the most valuable thing I could. probably do. But the reason I don't do it is cuz deep. down I feel not worthy of it. I feel.

like. who am I to tell anybody anything? You know, all of us we feel like a fraud. when we're giving any kind of advice. And that creeps up in me and I I get. this very If I'm being very vulnerable, it gets this place of. I don't even want to say, "Oh, thank you. for saying that.". at first because I'm like, well, if. someone's watching they'll be like, this. arrogant guy or. you get all the voices coming back in. your head. But the truth is.

I want to go and build something next. I. want to fall in love again. I want to be present for my children. And I want to be someone who can give. advice from a place of wisdom. and be proud that I give it. but also receive it because I've learned. just as much talking to you. And what I. will tell you is you are way ahead of. the game at 32 compared to where I was. Thank you. And I had a lot of success at 32 but I. wasn't asking these questions. And I.

wasn't pushing myself the way you did. and I think it is an incredibly cool. thing that this is what you get to do as. a career. cuz I think you get to help a lot of. people. Um. and don't ever lose sight of the fact. that the kid who was building in his. room. is now building in a lot of other. people's rooms and it's really. impressive. Thank you. That means an awful lot. coming from you. I've been extremely excited by this. conversation and I've been telling. everybody in our team up because of the. conversations we have on the phone.

And I knew that if those conversations. are any reflection of the conversation. we'd have on my show, it would be really. pivotal for me. And it has been. It's. been the nicest punch in the face. Me, too. You know, people have probably wondered why. I. say all this stuff in public, but. um. what an unbelievable opportunity it is. to meet someone like you and get to get. to learn from you. Genuinely to get to. learn from you. Like what an.

unbelievably crazy thing from this kid. from Botswana to get to meet someone. like you and learn from you. to the point that my life has a chance. of being better that I've spoken to you. And then to get to share that with. people who I know are struggling with. the same [ __ ] who are contending with. the same battles. So that is why I make. the decision to have these conversations. in the way that I do. And um. By the way, just want just cuz I. struggle with giving myself credit, I. wanted to say this to you. The kid from Botswana is teaching me as.

well, the kid from KasKop. You know, it's uh. as much as like that's an incredible. thing. I wanted to come on here cuz I've. listened to your podcast before and I've. been one of those listeners who grew and. learned from it. So thank you, honestly. And. continue to give yourself the credit you. deserve and continue to ask the. questions. I do want to blow a little bit of smoke. up your ass for something else that. you've done because I don't think people. have the all of this information, but.

when I looked at the breadth of. philanthropic work that you've done, whether it's the support you gave to. Manchester, which is the city that I. consider my my hometown, I after the. Ariana attack. Oh, my god, you got the. bee. on your arm. But all these other foundations, the. list of philanthropic work that you've. done is so long. that I that I would have to we'd have to. do another podcast just to go through. all of these things. And you don't talk. about it publicly. I don't see you. posting about it all the time. So for me. that's always indicated that you're. doing it for the right reasons, but it's.

incredible. So thank you for doing that. as well, and you deserve credit that you. never you never get for doing all of. these things. And this inspired me as well. Because sometimes I think as. entrepreneurs we can fall into the trap. of thinking we. we cut down the forest then donate to. the bees. You know, my mom is the reason. Um. she as I started building in college, she said, "Just promise me, you know, you'll do sadaka, which is. charity within our our culture, to give back.". Mhm. And. I basically said every aspect of my.

business will have a give back. component. And Shana Nepp runs our. family foundation. Like our job is to. make the money, her job is to help me. give it away. And um sometimes it's with money, sometimes it's with effort. But I've met. so many incredible heroes, unsung. heroes, in all this work. Um people who. really dedicate full-time their lives to. this. And. I really I always say um my grandfather. before he passed, he said, "If your. glass is filling with water, and you're. one of the lucky people in this world. that God continues to pour water into.

your glass, well, you better start pouring it into. other people's glasses, otherwise it's. just going to spill and make a mess.". And I never forgot that. Even when you sold Hype, there was this. tremendous amount of money that you. turned around and gave to all the. employees, which a lot of people don't. know about, and you also gave money to. several of your artists. And I'm I'm. from what I've researched, tens of. millions were given to your artists as. well, and you could have kept all that. money to yourself. So, when I hear that. someone's gone around and given that. much money to 264 of their employees and. artists that have worked with them,

you kind of get a picture of who the guy. is. We have a closing tradition on this. podcast where the last guest leaves a. question for the next guest, not knowing. who they're going to be leaving it for. And the question that has been left for. you is. Now I'm nervous. Why do people always get nervous at the. last minute of the question? I've been asked some questions all. night. The question left for you is, if you. could do one thing that fear of failure. has kept you from doing, what would it. be? And why has it kept you from doing it? Man.

I could do one thing. That's a really great question. Um. Mhm. You know, at first I was thinking it. would be like, oh, say sorry to somebody. or this that, but I feel like I've. gotten to do that with people in my life. for the last couple years for things. that like I wanted to kind of talk. about. And some things you realize like. it's just not the season for that, you. know, it takes two. And I felt myself it was almost the fear.

of saying this out loud. Um, write write a book. Oh, thank god. Yeah, I I've always uh. I think it's it's. My brother wrote a book, a really great. one called The Promise of a Pencil. And. it was a New York Times best seller, and. I was always like, that's Adam's thing. And I've always wanted to write, but I. always feel like my mind and, you know, the things I'm working on on myself, all. these things they change like every. week. And I always felt like deep down like, oh yeah, you should write a book, but. like you're really not going to write a.

great book if you do. And I think it's always held me back. from actually just sitting down and. doing it. I've got goosebumps then because as in. that silence, for some bizarre reason, I. swear on my mother's. I was thinking, I hope he says he's. going to write a book. I swear to you. That's what went through. my mind. I went, I hope he says he's. going to write a book. That's why I. went, thank god. Well, I didn't say I was going to write. it. I said fear's been holding me back. But maybe maybe you'll turn off the. camera and go on your nudge and this. will be the nudge for me. Well, we hope you do, Scooter, because. um I've been so shocked and blown away.

by. your wisdom and your ability to. articulate things and the stage of life. that you've you've arrived at is for me, as an objective observer, just the. perfect moment. I appreciate that and uh. we'll keep doing the work together and. and this is the beginning of a great. friendship and I'm really honored to be. here and really happy for all your. success. Thank you. The feeling is mutual. Thank. you, brother. Thank you so much. Thank. you. Make sure you keep what I'm about to say. to yourself. I'm inviting 10,000 of you. to come even deeper into the Diary of a.

CEO. Welcome to my inner circle. This is. a brand new private community that I'm. launching to the world. We have so many. incredible things that happen that you. are never shown. We have the briefs that. are on my iPad when I'm recording the. conversation. We have clips we've never. released. We have behind-the-scenes. conversations with the guest and also. the episodes that we've never ever. released and so much more. In the circle. you'll have direct access to me. You can. tell us what you want this show to be, who you want us to interview and the. types of conversations you would love us.

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