Sadiq Khan: The Dark Side Of The Police. How Safe Are We REALLY? | E216

Frank Donald Trump was obsessed with me. the mayor of London wasn't somebody of. my background my faith he wouldn't. responded the way he did would he mayor. of London City Khan is the first Muslim. man has made some powerful opponents the. new image of Britain's Multicultural. Society the mayor is with us do you. think London's safe uh well we've. reduced homicides live crime family. crime I don't think people feel safe in. London I'm not excusing it I'm. explaining it because of consequences. there's been a lot of instances of. police officers who have attacked raped.

women and girls on the Streets of London. what are you doing about that we're. doing it now how am I being criticized. for this since you were elected mayor. what are the things you look at and go. do you know I failed there well that's a. good question but I'm running for. election in 467 days time I'm not going. to answer that question honestly because. anything else is going to use against me. you can't tell the truth because someone. might use it against you I think most. MPS have got to be inauthentic are Ty. because. what's been your hardest day as London. mayor there's been a few at least 58.

people were killed in the fire at. grenfell Tower I still remember the. images I still remember the heat one. family six people wiped out and a number. of Terror attacks in London London. Bridge Westminster Bridge Finsbury Park. I went to a lot of funerals that summer. was hard. I just want to start this episode with a. message of thanks a thank you to. everybody that Tunes in to listen to. this podcast by doing so you've enabled.

me to live out my dream but also for. many members of our team to live out. their dreams too it's one of the. greatest privileges I could never have. dreamed of or imagined in my life to get. to do this to get to learn from these. people to get to have these. conversations to get to interrogate them. from a very selfish perspective trying. to solve problems I have in my life so I. feel like I owe you a huge thank you for. being here and for listening to these. episodes and for making this platform. what it is can I ask you a favor I can't. tell you how much you can change the. course of this podcast the the course of.

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[Music]. Sadiq. give me your context I spent a long time. reading through your Baxter and I think. it's an especially important place to. start because it appears to be much of. your your reason for being and your. reason for doing so can you take me. right back. um I want to hear about Pakistan I want. to hear about your your earliest years. in London sure. so first it's a pleasure to to be on.

this uh Stephen can I just just say two. things before we start it's not me being. a sycophant and please don't think I'm. being patronizing but firstly. um I think you realize that you're a. massive role model to so many londoners. and there are people that you will never. meet. who you've had an impact on and so thank. you firstly for that and and I meet. people that you don't meet who when I. say Who's Your Role Models uh and I pray. you need to give examples of the hard. work you do uh so so thank you for that.

but secondly congratulations it's always. lovely to meet someone who's incredibly. successful. um who's normal so my my family's uh. story uh is quite complicated. uh my grandparents and. great-grandparents were in India both of. my mum's side and my dad's side. and the story of India is India was part. of the British Empire. and the short version of the long story. is in 1947. the British decided to give up India.

and partition India I don't want to go. into divide and Rule and stuff but. there'd been sectarian violence now. between Muslims Sikhs and Hindus and a. Muslim in India wasn't safe. just like a Sikh in Hindu generally. speaking in West Pakistan news Pakistan. won't say why because these countries. were going to be stensibly Muslim and. the middle India ostensibly Hindu and. Sikh so my grandparents and great. grandparents left everything behind. everything behind. so my parents had experienced being.

immigrants once already right from India. to Pakistan and they had a comfortable. life in Pakistan middle class not middle. class. uh my Dad decided he was in the. Pakistani Air Force he went first to. Australia uh and. if any Australians watching this this is. no expression on your country it's a. great country right he didn't really. like Australia and so when he went when. he went back to Pakistan he didn't want. to go to Australia to live. and then he came to London.

and uh he made London his home and this. is a London which yes when he first came. there were signs saying you know no. blacks no Irish no dogs by blacks. anybody who wasn't white and when I. compare my mum and dad who traveled you. know three four thousand miles learned a. new language learned a new culture. raised a family. I was born in Tuten in St George's. hospital I first lived a mile up the. road in the Henry Prince estate on a. council estate my parents moved a mile. the other way afterwards when my dad. managed to save a deposit for a house. and I now live a mile and a half from.

where I was born so I've literally gone. up a mile radius right from where I was. born in my grandparents and my parents. had this huge strife and travel this way. so I'll be the first Con in three. generations and not to be a migrant. because I'm I'm staying here that whole. experience growing up in a house of 10. 10 people eight siblings in total. um in a in a council house. um flat flat yeah Council flat. um. the The Immigrant story you've told. there.

watching your parents struggle to. provide for both for all of you. um. what imprint has that left on you when. you look back and go that's why I am the. way that I am that's it's really I'm. really trying to get at the real. defining attributes the things that make. City different from the the average. person on the street. the work ethic the piss but you know. um and with that I also want to know you. know one of my guests on this podcast. that was the coach for Michael Jordan. Kobe Bryant said that we all have a dark.

side and much of our dark side is can be. attributed to the thing that makes us. quote unquote great you've seen the Last. Dance yeah oh God it sounds amazing my. favorite from upstairs in the wall yeah. so so. um. so I think you tend to. mirror emulate. and be like those you're around you copy. their mannerisms their behaviors and so. forth and I I was raised in a family. where. we felt incredibly privileged mum and.

dad both made sure we understood. that this privilege meant with a. responsibility to. you know listen to your teachers at. school. to work hard. um and you know to to you know not be. Ashoka basically and so. you know all of us not just had a really. good worth of work ethics still do. all of us also it's interesting I just. think about this the other night. I've given saying back whether it's. coaching in boxing or whether it's you. know volunteering at a swimming club.

whether it's you know politics or. whatever. because that came from our parents what. we saw in relation and also what we saw. was going on the estate and how I've. what our friends are doing and stuff and. you know. and the interesting thing about our. estate was. everyone worked all the dads worked most. of the mums had a job and you know there. was a work ethic and a sense of. community I'm not pretending it was. brilliant you know roast into glasses. and stuff. but yeah so you know that you know my. wife often you know jokes that you know.

I can't sit around doing nothing I've. always got to be doing something because. I always saw my dad doing something even. if I went on you know the odd day he'd. have off he'd take us to museums take us. to galleries go out on a tour of London. go to Hyde Park so so there's no there. was no. time for doing nothing. um and so it's really and so I it's hard. for me to actually spend down time go to. the theater and just do Leisure or you. know read a book for. for the sake of reading a book and stuff. because you know they were go-getters I.

I saw that throughout your story um and. I heard it from some of your colleagues. as well that. and I also heard you say in fact in one. interview where you said that you work. seven days a week. not very healthy. yes and no so. um. I'm very lucky I'm privileged I'm I'm. mayor London. I did a meeting last week with my staff. and my my sort of top staff and I said. to them last week listen.

um I would reply for my job. at the next election. in this term we have. 475 days left that's now down to four or. six seven days left at the time we're. recording this. we've got to work in the basis but there. is a possibility I'll try my best that. it doesn't happen. the responsibility I will not be. re-elected when I reply for my job. londoners will say no. we've got to use every single day we. have left. every hour we have left to make sure we. maximize.

delivering for our city to make it safer. to make it fairer to make it greens make. it more prosperous you can't afford to. waste this time it's a privilege it's a. privilege to what about you though in. your in your family and all the other. things that make life you know worth. living it's not just work right yeah but. but some of the stuff I do is work. without being work I'll give you an. example so I might go and support. uh a theater production my support is. going along to watch it and they can. then amplify it I've been there right.

but it's a great night for for my wife. and I or I might do say with with my. daughters and stuff you know but I. recognize that my my wife and daughters. and my mum and my brothers and sisters. and my in-laws. you know have no sacrifices by me doing. my job you know and I'm cognizant of. that and I'm grateful for that you can't. do the job that I'm doing without the. support of your family by the way you. can also do this job I work three days a. week the previous guy did that right you. can do that right but he meant I felt. privileged to do the job I think it's a.

privilege and I remember when I was in. government. um I don't remember in 2010. uh the last year I sat around the. cabinet with uh you know Gordon Brown. and the team. and I think there are some incredibly. talented people around that cabinet in. the prime of their game. it's an incredibly talented special. advisors in the prime of their game. we lost the general election. and their Peak years. they're not in government they're not.

advising the government. had I known in 2005 when I first became. an MP and had you know Tony and Gordon. sat down with. 300 plus MPS and say listen. we've got to maximize these five years. between thousand five thousand and ten. I think things may have been different. because we'd realize it's a privilege. we're going to use every day we have you. know so I'm not criticizing Tony and. going but I'm saying you don't know how. long you've got your job right and so my. views you make the most of it it's time.

to rest later on. that's also not guaranteed though right. well you know in terms of Life generally. yeah but you know I love my job I've. I've been lucky to have three big jobs I. was a lawyer for 11 years loved it loved. being loyal I was a parliamentarian and. a minister for 11 years loved it but I'm. neither May I've been the mayor for the. last six and five years and so if you're. lucky enough. to have a job you love and your family. supportive you've got to have a. supportive family my wife is so. supportive she's not just a an.

incredible chead she gives me good. advice she pulls me up you know when I. when I bring the arrogance home or I. have delusions of grandeur you know she. makes sure I put the bins out she makes. sure that I'm doing my behaving up. cleaning up and stuff you need that at. home that's sort of you need that sense. of normality home my daughter's Jews I. mean you know they there's no is the. greatest in my house they're both back. home now to finish University they're. both working. um and so they're supportive they. support what I'm doing uh they know I'm. here. um it's your wife and I said to her I. said what are you um what annoys you.

about City. because I could tell you what my. girlfriend would say she'd say she said. Stephen is just an hour and a half how. long have you got and uh it's Anonymous. I'm sure there's a long list of stuff I. mean I think I think uh because people. don't get to see that the impact that. being a politician has on the family at. home now this is one of the things I'm. super interested in with all my guests. is. um how they how that then impacts all. the people we don't get to see yeah yeah. it's that's right so what I did at early. stage was I involved uh my office so my. my team mouth is a lot of them are now. my best friends I've worked with them so.

long. they know my they're not Sadia and they. know the kids so uh simple things you. know my team will send Sardi in my diary. for the week in advance so that's what. I'm doing the nights I'm out the nights. I'm in which things should be coming. along to and so the family's involved in. that at home we have uh you know on on. the fridge or which tells us who's at. home for walking Luna and so forth and. so we've got it it only works when you. share what you're doing and stuff my. wife's got her own you know she's got.

two jobs herself so it only works. if you know everyone's on the same page. it does not work and a lot of my friends. in politics marriage breakups a lot of. my friends in the law marriage breakups. you know all the sorts of problems and. stuff so you've got to have not just. somebody who. you know is supportive of you doing it. but he's an active player and you're. doing it and you've got to make sure. that parts of your work life. are sharing with your home life. there's a couple of conditions we have. at home what is the biggest friction. though that's the question yeah so I.

mean we don't have much friction at home. I mean work-life balance is an issue uh. you know me missing another family event. or or may not be able to go to. um. a distant friends or relations social. event but we don't really do friction. I'm trying you know trying to think that. the last time we had. you know starting management so last. Saturday for example uh and I I was. doing something for work and then I. promised to go to and you know party in. Eastbourne uh uh an anniversary party of. a friend and you know and then do same.

back in London on Sunday so managing. that with negotiating that with my wife. and my daughters was was quite was Quite. a feat you mentioned you're a lawyer. firm um just just more than a decade. I'm always um I'm always I think the. word is skeptical I've said this to Matt. Hancock when I spoke to him about like. why politicians become politicians. um. you had a great job. you know paid a lot of money you made. the decision to to quit that job very. abruptly and go into politics and become.

ultimately a labor MP. why. so so the the the sort of the. qualification to to that question you're. right by the way that's all right is it. was the MP for two tin yep so what I. wasn't going to do is give up my illegal. Korean by the way it was it wasn't just. a great little career but a great future. ahead of me because you know you know. it's just the two of us around the. business very profitable gone from being. you know a business we just employing. eight people to more than 50 while I was.

a partner. but the opportunity came to be the MP. for two teen tuition I was born and. raised in literally the MP for tuition. at a guy called Tom Cox had been the MP. my entire life I'd never known any other. MP I'd never been inside the Chamber of. Parliament I didn't know any friends who. were MPS. uh I didn't really know any friends in. politics I don't think I was a counselor. in my spare time uh look at you know. serving the local community. as a lawyer in my spare time I was in my. spare time I was chair of Liberty Human. Rights group you know chair of legal.

action group a legal aid charity group. um but the opportunity came to be the. MP4 tutin and you know I couldn't say no. um because you know it was the chance to. represent my community in Parliament and. the way I described at the time because. people saying to me what are you doing. why it just makes sense. was you know I was blessed to have a. good legal career and if I won a case. for my client. uh he or she benefited or if I sell the. case. if the case went to one of the higher.

courts we'd said a president Senator. president means that other people. benefit from the president of the case. because you've changed the law. and that's a big deal and you know I was. blessed to do that but when you're in. Parliament and you're part of the. government you can pass legislation or. amend legislation. that affects millions of people uh so. not just people in tutin but people. across our city and our country and. being the MP for two-ton uh was why I. gave up the hill career not to be an mp4. MP's sake to be the MP for tooting.

why does that matter to you helping. millions of people it's my it's it's. public service right it's it's the. ability to impact and improve people's. uh lives I could have you know when I. left when I left Law School. gotten worked in the city and you know. being a City lawyer but I chose to do. the law that I chose to do for a variety. of reasons you know it's important for. me to be a lawyer practicing you know. discrimination or you know issues around. police misconduct issues around uh. employment law do litigation sort of. cases that I that I undertook what. motivated me was this issue of acting on.

behalf of the underdog. uh being the advocate for people I grew. up with who were routinely you know the. wrong end of the sus law stop and search. people I knew who were unfairly. dismissed uh people who you know I was. aware who had been discriminated against. you know. um acting for the victims of. miscarriages of Justice. um that was important to me why. a number of reasons my inspiration for.

being lawyer is uh we read To Kill a. Mockingbird no I wouldn't be Atticus. Finch right well you know we wouldn't be. at Alex's Finch and then and then when I. watched uh when I was growing up this. this program on TV you're too young to. remember it called La law. I wanted to be this local Fuentes Jimmy. Smith's played this lawyer who was doing. this really good cases. but also remember a number of things. happened around that time. where I felt helpless. uh you know the way my dad was treated. in his bus garage the bus garage closing. down felt hopeless we couldn't do. anything about it you know getting a. March is fine but you need to challenge.

this in the course if you could if you. couldn't use the use the the court. system you want to change the laws you. know seeing friends Street the way they. were and and I thought. it's not wrong but there's no way of. helping you know people who need help. and being a lawyer is a noble thing I. know people I know lawyers get a bad bad. rep and you know uh some lawyers doing a. lot of money. but people who do the law that I was. doing you know uh don't earn a lot of. money some do and I was very lucky to to. do well but it's important to me public.

service to act on behalf of these uh. people who act some power for the person. who's the receiving in a police. misconduct who actually part of the. person who's uh you know discriminated. on the grounds of their race or gender. in the in the workplace so what I got. from that is your dad was I'm trying to. understand the personal reasons why you. chose that path which is like you know. like we've all chosen our past for. for interesting reasons I think a lot of. my path was defined by my own. insecurities as a kid what I've heard. though is your the thing about your. dad's bus.

um Depot being shut down that's garage. and then there was some of your friends. in your life had experienced certain. types of abuse that were. um because of the. race or but also mistreatment by the. police. that that was your like personal. motivation right yeah yeah yes so so. those are my experiences my experience. growing up was that you know actually. life isn't always fair and you need. somebody to be there to help you. um and it's never been about. you know it sounds you know uh.

Frankly Speaking about you know. wankerish but it's never been about. yourself making money none of my. siblings. have you know following followed paths. which is interesting none of us have. followed paths where it's been about you. know making money for money's sake it's. about doing a job we enjoy. and trying to give someone back where. you can whether it's being a teacher. whether it's being you know a coach or. whatever. over the last 10 years in your own view. which direction do you think London has. gone in as in terms of like safety and.

in terms of. um desirability and in terms of world. influence over the last let's say 10. years because it's I think it's my view. that it's it's it's probably gone. in a negative Direction in terms of like. influence safety. um. and yeah I think generally like the. respect of the of the capital. and I think I mean a number of factors. have contributed to that obviously the. pandemic has been a big one but then I. think generally the the knife crime. issue and the safety issues and these. are all things influenced by biases.

right because I was when I moved to. London I was burgled really badly 3 A.M. in the morning came in my house stole. everything we never heard anything back. from the police there was no interest in. in helping us so. um but just generally I've lived in. other parts of the world yeah no sure. sure you know I lived in the Middle East. lived in spent time in Dubai's lived in. New York for many many years. um New York's not not necessarily safe. at all but other parts of the world seem. to be much safer and it's funny because. when I speak to some of my um. friends who've been successful in. business and they talk about why they're.

leaving the UK it's one of the top three. reasons there's always safety it's. always I don't feel safe in London. before I before before you before we had. this had this conversation I was. listening to um Amir Khan talk about him. being robbed on the High Street in. London coming out a restaurant at. gunpoint you see the footballers the. Arsenal players all being robbed at. knife point on mopeds my girlfriend had. her phone snatched out of her hand while. walking you know and you just think oh. God it's not safe to be in London. first it's already sort of your. experience and I wasn't too distressed.

so so if you look at London over the. last uh 10 years the last 20 years even. uh if you parked brexit for a second uh. because we can come back to that in. relation to the impact of brexit on uh. London London is a global City uh uh you. know I don't want to go to various. metrics but it's we're doing incredibly. well as a global City in relation to uh. foreign direct investment. in relation to uh the diversity of. people coming to London in relation to. you know the tourism of London in.

relation to retention of talent. uh in relation to the diversity of our. economy it's not just the financial. services Professional Services Legal. Services Life Sciences higher education. um culture Tech so forth so the. underlying strengths are still there and. we are doing incredibly well we punch. well above our weight in relation to the. rest of the country. because of how well we're doing we. contribute roughly speaking every year. net to the treasury at 42 billion pounds. and it's been going up over the period. of time so so we uh you know as a slice.

of the national pie contribute far more. but then we're supposed to be remind the. size of our city and it's because we've. managed to attract talent and keep. Talent that's why I'm here yeah but the. reason why I might go is because it's. okay and so and so one of the challenges. we've had post brexit to keep that. Talent here and we can talk about some. of the stuff we've done to keep it in. relation to safety it is a fact and I I. and I'm really sorry for for your. experience uh genuinely Stephen because. I've met too many people like you being. the victims of crime.

but I'm afraid the bad news is since. 2012 uh and nationally 2013 uh serious. violence has been going up since 2013. across our country including London. London is not separate from the rest of. the country and feeling the impact. now without excusing criminality and I'm. not excusing those people of burglary. house by the way and I'm not saying this. for their motivation. but there is a link between and crime is. complex causes by the way without. excusing it you know and I believe very.

simply you've got to deal with it in two. ways one is to be tough on crime more. pleasing given the support they need to. to make sure they deal with the the. criminals I call it public health. approach and it comes to explain what I. mean on top of the complex causes of. crime in relation to dealing with. underlying causes deprivation poverty. elimination inequality and so forth you. can't escape the fact that since 2010. we've had massive austerity in this. country so there had been 21 000 fewer. police officers across the country in. the last 12 years that is a fact we've.

got youth clubs that have closed down. use centers closed down after school. club's not taking place weekend clubs. not taking place uh unemployment's gone. uh High until very recently and so forth. I'm not excusing it I'm explaining it. and so uh you know when I became mayor. one of the things I promised London as I. would do is to be straight with. londoners about the problems in relation. to I was quite clear straight away. saying listen. these Cuts have consequences and we've. got to recognize there were consequences. so I'm going to use the limited powers I.

have and raise council tax. that's one lever to bring money in and. use it to pay for more police officers. and I was criticized for doing so but I. had to do it because of your experience. was when I'd heard too many times before. so we've paid for 1300 more officers not. enough but it's what all I can do. there's a limit how much you can raise. council tax to it's a regressive tax. but also use business rates money to. open up youth clubs again youth centers. employee youth workers have summer. schemes we have now 32 000 mentors we're.

going to get to 100 000 of the next two. three years mentors are crucial in my. view. and the good news I'm not complacent at. all and Amir Khan's experience was also. awful was the good news is we have. bucked the national Trend so. across the country homicides are going. up in London they're going down we've. reduced homicides knife crime gun crime. 10 and shopping science burglary since I. became mayor nowhere near low enough.

uh because we've got to invest more in. the police and invest more in the causes. of crime and when I talk about public. health approach Stephen what I mean by. that is this. think of crime as you would a public. health issue what would you do. you deal with the infection you've got. to kill the infection right more police. officers uh you know go to arrest people. you've got to stop the infection. spreading really important we stop you. know the crime spreading people thinking. that you can be successful by being a. criminal we've got to stop it deal with. the gang so forth but stop the infection.

occurring in the first place stop the. crime occurred in the first place and. you know uh it's a source of Pride to me. we've not made the progress but our. policies being tough and crime and. invested in the police and we are. reforming the police at the same time. but also invested in young people is. leading to the turnaround in London and. we've backed the national trade in. London and it's a global City sorry as a. global City. uh you speak to as I do regularly the. mayor of New York the mayor of Chicago. the mayor of La those are our. comparators with respect not do you know.

it is I just I would just like to feel. really safe. and I I when I go to other places if you. go to a somewhere in the middle east or. Dubai or whatever it might be you feel. exceptionally safe. you know so it's like to be honest I. went to Indonesia I was Indonesia a. couple of weeks ago I was in Bali I said. to my girlfriend I said you could leave. you could leave your wallet on the floor. here and it would still be there an hour. later when you come back you do that in. London. you know not only have you lost your. wallet you probably come back you've. lost your shoes or something you know. like and I just it's all sucks so great. charity generosity and you know.

londoners aren't quite all quite like. that Stephen I don't think they feel. safe I don't think people feel safe. enough and more so if you're Auburn or a. girl if you think you don't feel safe. one of the big challenges that we've got. is making sure that women and girls feel. safe is this all solvable in your view. without doubt we saw in the hell we saw. in the uh 2000s uh you know uh between. 997. and uh you know the mid-naughties huge. progress made in reducing crime uh and. it was dealing with the two things that. I said you've got to be tough and crime. top of the causes you're invest in.

policing but also invest in dealing with. the causes of uh a policing definitely. solvable we've made progress uh in the. past we're making progress in London uh. and now we've got to make sure at the. same time of course you know we reform. the police we'll publicize issues in uh. policing London has got to be the eyes. in the Years there are some amazing. citizens in London who you know would. return the wallet to you uh you know if. you left it you know if you'd lost it or. left around in London we'll report. something taking place we'll come. forward if they're a witness of crime.

we'll come forward and support the. police that are victim of a crime we'll. join the Police Service these problems. are definitely solvable uh we've done it. in the past we're doing it now and with. the possibility you know in the not. distant future of a you know changing. government and a government that invests. in public services it definitely. solvable. on the one of the points you made there. about the infection spreading I thought. was quite compelling I was reading about. the the story of um I think it's hars. rat Wally. the story of an 18 year old guy who was. in Twickenham was approached by a 16.

year old kid ended up being stabbed to. death by Within 18-inch knife because he. got into an argument with this person. and when that 16 year old that stabbed. him to death was asked he said he. stabbed him because. he was people in his life had been. um victims of knife crime and he he. thought he was scared that. hazrat would have a knife himself that's. the infection you're talking about yes. basically what happens is. um. some young people that I speak to. um will think the way to be safe is to. carry a knife because.

they suspect you might be carrying knife. right. and so we've got to get the message. across that you know leaving it home. with a knife doesn't make you more safe. it makes you less safe. so if you go to a primary school not not. a secondary school a primary school. uh across the country by the way. and you have a classroom of 30 people. and you say how many of you. know somebody. carrying the knife. you'll be shocked the number of hands. that go up in a primary school right.

uh secondary school is even higher and. so there is this belief amongst young. people. that Karen the life makes you more safe. not less safe and by the way I went to a. tough Secondary School lots of fights. nobody even thought about taking a knife. to school right or getting involved with. knives at all and you know. um so we've got to deal with that issue. at source. to make sure young people understand the. dangers so we're going to school. speaking to young people people with. credibility you've got to have somebody. who's the message carrier needs to be.

somebody who kids respect and will. listen to right and so getting people to. go into schools to explain the dangers. sometimes it's a bereaved mum and. bereaved mum can be really effective in. explaining the story about her son tends. to be boys about her son and the dangers. of carrying the knife so we're going to. stop it at source we've also going to. make sure Frankly Speaking that there's. intelligence-led stop and search because. if you're covering the knife I want you. to be stopped and searched if you've got. a knife taken off you I would bet. progress in taking knives off people. which is saving life's weapon sweeps is.

really important but also if you're. caught having the knife there's got to. be serious sentences there's got to be a. consequence of you carrying that knife. but you know and that's why we're gonna. have these conversations that's why it's. the public health approach and it is. leading to you know huge reductions you. know over the last year we've had a 55. reduction in doing homicides not enough. one is one too many. uh you know a few homicides last year. then when I first became uh mayor not. enough but we're making progress because. the investment is now starting to pay. dividends in relation to youth clubs.

youth work going into schools more. police officers there was a there was a. big drop in knife crime wasn't there um. was it 2020 would I say. so is that the pandemic so the pandemic. we saw a reduction a number of reasons. obviously for three months people but. there was a lockdown and stuff but and. those that progress we've carried on but. it's starting to go down before the. pandemic uh we first started investing. in it's called the Young londoners Fund. in about 20 18 19 but it takes some time. to get youth workers back employed you. centers back open and also young people. starting to have these points landed on.

them uh it's not there's not you know. light bulb moment it's going to take. time spend time with them that's why. mentors are so important the reason I. made the point at the beginning Stephen. about about you as a role model is you. know I'm a firm believer and you can't. you can't be if you can't see it right I. was lucky I was lucky that I saw at home. my mum working really hard my dad. working really hard my Big Brother's. working really hard I draw models a lot. of young people haven't got that role. model at home the youth worker is their. role model a youth worker is an amazing. asset to a young person if you've not. got the role model at home in relation.

to a big brother a friend somebody you. can ring up somebody give you careers. advice you know a lot of young people. don't have to put up a tie right they. had to shave I can't go for a job. interview those soft skills we're. teaching young people now you may think. why are you teaching young people as. soft skills because they need those soft. skills right well knife crimes up since. last year though isn't it no it's gone. down so basically knife grounds knife. ground's gone down since I became mayor. uh homicides comes down since last year. no robberies got off a bit Robert's got. off about for a number of reasons uh. we're dealing with the uh um yeah uh a.

robberies when you're up yeah out and. about okay robbery sorry robbery's. burglary with violence right. um my last question on that topic is do. you think London's safe uh well. I asked that question by your answer if. you don't feel it's safe it's not safe. right and so do you feel it safe. yeah I do because my comparator isn't. with respect Bali. or ordered by my comparatories New York. Chicago. um those cities because we are a global. City Stephen uh you know we're not we're.

not Cheshire right and so you know but. but if it's not safe for you it's not. safe for me I speak to too many women. and girls they say it's not safe I speak. to too many women in particular who say. they're imposing a curfew in themselves. not to go at night time because they. don't feel safe in that case it's not. safe I speak to too many. um you know people who are worried about. their safety and you know perception is. is important here because it's fear of. crime that you're talking about because. of your experience right uh and you'll. speak to your friends and not reasonably.

that they'll be apprehensive and scared. so it's a problem for me as we've got to. address it women and girls there's been. um a lot of. talk recently about instances of police. officers who have attacked. raped with women and girls on the. Streets of London. what are you doing about that to prevent. that happening going forward. so in the last few years has been at. last.

publicity given to the fact that every. three days across our country a woman is. killed at the hands of a man every three. days. that's a sobering fact. recently we've seen not just the tragic. murders of Sarah everard. um you know Zara Alina you know Bieber. and Nicole uh you know and many others. Sabina Nessa but also we've seen people. who we entrust to keep us safe. peace officers police officers.

the people we go to and we're the. victims of crime. being involved in the most serious. crimes possible. Sarah everard. was abducted by a man using his Warren. card raped and killed by serving police. officer. we had David Carrick somebody who'd been. a police officer for almost 20 years we. discovered throughout most of his 20. years. had been a prolific sexual offender used. in the fact he's a police officer to.

commit some of those crimes. but also it appears there are. opportunities for the police. during the vetting process. to find out this guy was a criminal and. not just stop him being a police officer. but take action against him. my view that I've been making clear for. a number of years now and I've been. criticized for this. is I think there are sustaining cultural. issues in the Police Service one of the. reasons why ultimate has come ultimately. lost confidence in the previous. commissioner.

was my lack of belief in her ability to. understand this as an issue have a plan. to address this I have a plan to impact. the trusted confidence of londoners. and so. we've got to make sure we have a. reforming commissioner doing this job. unless the guy at the top or the woman. at the top understands the problem how. you're going to fix it I think the new. commissioner and his Deputy understand. there's a problem and I've got a plan to. fix it. they're taken on board the. recommendations from an outsider you. can't Mark your own homework you need. somebody else. to look into things.

tell you how bad things are make. recommendations and follow them through. so we've got an outsider Louise Casey. talking to us going on in the Met Police. Service she's published an interim. report. the Commissioners accepted all the. findings she will now publish her final. report later on this year we need to. change the rules around how police. officers are employed so if a member of. your staff had a nickname. the bastard if I would raise questions. for you right why is this guy's nickname. amongst his colleagues the bastard. or other nicknames that police officers. involved in this stuff have had no.

action taken against them because. it's very difficult for. commission and others to get rid of. dodgy officers the regulations make it. difficult. one asking necessarily in all cases for. criminal prosecution we're asking for. those officers to be at least sacked. so we're lobbying the government to. change the regulations to make it easier. for the commission to get rid of dodgy. officers we've set up a hotline for. people can ring in and police officers. can ring in about dodgy Behavior other. officers. from City Hall without government. support from City Hall were investing.

more money in ramping up the vetting. processes right this guy should have. been spotted a mile away I've also asked. the commissioner he's well it was his. idea to be fair to go back 10 years and. look at every single time a police. officer has had a complaint made against. them of this nature to see if any other. opportunities missed with other officers. we've also got a new unit which we're. invested in an anti-abuse and Corruption. unit but my view is this by the way in. London. we've shown a spotlight on this but.

there are other police forces around the. country. where you know I'm sure there are other. issues where that spotlight's not been. shown yet and so it's really important. for us to recognize these systemic. cultural issues across our country that. demand addressing. quick word from one of our sponsors I've. got a tip for all of you that will make. your virtual meeting experiences I think. 10 times better as some of you may know. by now Blue Jeans by Verizon offers. seamless high quality video conferencing. but the reason why I use blue jeans. versus other video conferencing tools is. because of immersion their tools make.

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of this podcast since we launched the. podcast and so I owe them a huge debt of. gratitude for enabling this show and in. fact when we hit the million Milestone. on YouTube with this podcast I sent it. to the founder because I've never shared. this before but he actually said to me. when I started the podcast he was like. you're gonna absolutely kill it you'll. have millions of subscribers you'll be. this big you'll be that big so many. people will listen and I don't know if I. believed it if I'm being completely. honest but he believed in Us in this. show. um before we'd released one episode. which is a remarkable thing and he gave.

me a huge amount of self-belief in. myself so thank you Julian Hearn for. that but also thank you huel for. creating a product that has helped me. and help my health stay intact in my. busiest days over the last couple of. years. episode. what's been your hardest day as London. mayor. there's been a few I think grunfeld. Tower. that. I still remember the images that's. remember the Heat. I went to a lot of funerals. um that summer was.

that someone was hard I still I'm still. touched with the families that I see. them often. and whenever I see them. it comes back my grandfather was just. it was just and it still it still sticks. with me because it it could have been us. it's councilor State diverse estate. lovely community. those families will not be the same. again. um. and every time I go there. and I spend time with the families.

you just you just think what these. families are going through. your one family six people wiped out uh. another 11 year old child. who'd want to asset competition. and you know when you speak to those who. were the judges she would have gone on. to being you know this amazing woman. lost their life in that fire and so that. 2017 was hard because we also had at the. same time the orphan grenfell.

and a number of Terror attacks in London. uh London Bridge uh Westminster Bridge. uh Finsbury Park. um. that some was harder you know because I. spent a lot of time I I like I like I. liked I think it's important. for me to spend time with brief families. so when I was an MP when I was a lawyer. I spent a lot of time brief animals my. clients when I was an MP there was ever. you know a homicide in TuneIn.

I would meet the families asking me the. families when I became may I started a. practice where. Whenever there was a homicide in London. my office would write to the family and. say look obviously give my condolences. but give them my details and meet with. the families. and so after grunfell uh you know into a. lot of funerals a lot of families and. and those families stories. stay with you and I'm still in contact. with a lot of them. but that summer. um. June 2017.

you referenced the London Bridge attacks. as well where I think three men in a van. mounted the sidewalk then jumped out. with knives and killed I think eight. people in total in um. borough borough Market. when you see this happening you're at. home right 10 p.m at night you're. watching the Telly you see this. happening. what goes on in your head. so just just to reassure people watching. so we do a lot of preparation a lot of.

blood practice a lot of planning on. those sorts of things so you see try. and and. you're never ready for it but you try to. do what you can in advance to understand. it because I'm not a police officer I'm. not an nmo5. I'm not counter-terror but I'm the. police around commissioner so I need to. understand what you're doing so so I can. understand your job and so I I've always. tried to understand what you're doing so. I can be at help not hindrance. and so when it happens there's a lot of.

uncertainty in real time what's going on. but the good news is. our police and other partners are. trained for the phrases. a marauding terrorist uh the phrase for. it uh there's training for it and and we. learn from other countries when this. happens so. uh the first time this sort of uh Terror. tactic was used that's well known about. was in Delhi a number of years ago so. our police have learned what's happened. there and so we practice a lot of this.

stuff in relation to. what what the Firearms team will do in. the situation. what the police response will do what my. role is going to be where I should be. and so forth. and and also you've got to give. Assurance to londoners you can't play. into the terrorist hands what does. terrorist want you to do a terrorist. wants to terrorize you and have Panic. spreading changing behavior in a way. that's perverse and so forth so it's. really important the response I have to. a terror attack because I could. inadvertently be playing into the hands.

of the terrorists well there's a motion. come into all of this you're seeing. you know. Carnage you're seeing death. you is there a place for emotion in all. of that in real time there really can't. be in real time there can't be for and. that sort of stuff there can be when it. comes to a foreign. sort of thing but but because people are. looking to you to provide leadership. and panic doesn't isn't good leadership. and so one of the reasons why you know. I've asked for when we've had the.

practice the preparation the planning is. to make sure there isn't panic and there. isn't emotion because you've got to make. rational decisions and provide. reassurance in a core calm waste you. know you can't go to a cobra meeting and. be historical you've got to explain the. facts what you've ascertained what. you're going to do. what buses are going to be diverted what. tube's going to be stopped you know and. so forth another important thing in. London in that sort of context Stephen. is we can't afford to happen is. reprisals right people wrongly thinking. every Muslim is a terrorist we saw in. America. Post 9 11 you know somebody were in a.

turban attacked and killed because. people thought wrongly it was involved. in terrorism in 911 so this that part of. British law in the community community. tensions as well after that incident. happened. um Donald Trump came out and made some. disparaging comments about. about my guess about about you in London. um really kind of mocking what you'd. said. how do you feel about that is it I mean. it's I mean from my point of view it's. an incredibly bizarre behavior for a.

wild leader to be taking such a stance. after it's such a tragedy but how did. how did that feel on that day. emotionally. it was odd let me see what I saw it. there's basically an understanding we. have there are certain cities and. certain parts of the world are targets. of terrorists because of our values. because of our way of life and so forth. and you so there's a there's a. solidarity. we saw happen in Paris. uh you know you know we saw it up in 911. right uh and there are other examples. around the world in Manchester the awful. you know events of the Ariana Grande.

concert and so forth and so there's. always a sense of solidarity and you'll. you'll see world leaders you know Mayors. and others Sending message of solidarity. and it's unusual it's exceptional. actually. for particularly our closest Ally right. special relationship you saw our primary. prime minister response to 911 you know. Tony Blair George Bush. and you have Donald Trump. responding the way he he does and let's. be frank you know if the mayor of London. wasn't you know somebody of.

you know my background my faith and so. forth and he didn't have the views he. had about people of my faith and my. background he wouldn't respond to the. way he did would he has that has that. played a role in how people have treated. you in terms of on the other side of the. aisle people have political views do you. think some of you know I'm reflecting. now on much of what Meghan Markle said. about how like the institutional how. claims about institutional racism. impacting the way she was treated by the. press and by by the institution itself. but but when I think about you being.

you know probably Britain's most famous. Muslim. um. you are the mayor of London do you. believe that there has been instances. and there are just generally a bias. because you are a Muslim yourself. and how does that rear its head on like. a day-to-day month-to-month basis. well looking backwards I mean I'm sure. you've read about the uh my first. election campaign in 2016 right my faith. was used against me by my opponents uh. you know you kind of a must remember.

links with terrorism so forth and so. forth for no other reason but because of. to be frank my faith right. um and that's why it's so important to. win because had I not won if you're an. Asian or a Muslim or whatever you're. thinking hold on a sec it's not possible. to be the Maryland because you're afraid. that holds you back and that's why. winning was important. for a variety of other reasons as well. but you know the thing about our city. is not understanding the prejudices. against the religion that I practice. because a minority of terrorists do bad.

things use the name of Islam. this city voted for not just an ethic. minority. or just a religious minority but the. religion he belongs to is Islam it's. this thing wonderful about our city not. just tolerating difference respect and. embracing and celebrating it as well but. I can't escape the fact that you know. being a Muslim. when we're living in a climate of. islamophobia. has challenges as well it's it's not a. secret it's not I'm not diverging any.

breaches of you know National Security. the Christchurch shooter in New Zealand. you know referenced me in his in his. diatribe the Finsbury Park terror terror. terrorist. you know reference me uh in his. terrorist attack in Finsbury uh park. outside uh the mosque you know I'm not. I'm not giving equivalence to Donald. Trump in relation to terrorists but. Donald Trump. for a period of time was obsessed with. me and so that leads to you go to social. media some of the stuff that I get on.

social media right uh you go to uh some. of the far-right groups some of the. stuff I received there some of the. you know in Virtual Commons mainstream. journalists who use me as clickbait they. know if they use my name it's going to. attract traffic to their social media. channels they know that and because. you're a Muslim but of course it is. right because we know. that there's a currency there's a. currency right uh you know and we know. for reasons that you know you know. aren't fair to Muslims the vast fast. fast majority.

yeah who live in the west love the West. uh Laura Biden and so forth but the. actions of a small minority means we're. all labeled we're all demonized and so I. was reading the independent and it was. they were talking about the death. threats you'd received on social media. you'd come out and talked about some of. the comments that people had made to you. calling you a. um words that I probably can't even. repeat and I won't repeat to be fair. um but very derogatory racist uh. homosexual at times terminology towards.

you which oftentimes included death. threats. um the independent had written an. article showing what those those threats. were have you ever felt like your safety. was at risk yeah it's been a few times. yeah yeah uh uh and that's one of the. reasons why you know and I have pleased. protection not because I asked for it. for a year I said no. and in the end. my wife and my chief of staff said. you've got to take it because. two reasons because if I'm out with my.

family their personal safety is being. compromised right uh I can't have that. uh if I'm out with my staff working. the person said he's being compromised. and I'm not willing to take that risk. either and so uh you know there'd be in. specific threats. but the problem with police protection. is it means you lose your spontaneity so. you know I came here by tube uh I'm not. you know the police officers on on the. tube with me right you wouldn't know. they were there you know um and so forth. but they've got to be with me when I go. to a restaurant when I go to the cinema.

and I'm walking my dog when I'm getting. the tube right and so like it restricts. my ability to just you know have you. ever been. genuinely worried about your safety a. couple of times yeah there's an occasion. where uh yeah there's been a number of. occasions I probably I don't want to. give them the credit by making them know. that I was scared and worried about my. safety because you know they'll think. they can do it again but there have been. occasions even with police protection. about Proxima Berlin you know but I've. asked them to just you know keep a. distance because I don't want them to be. next to me like I mean I'm a celebrity.

or the Prime Minister you know I I like. the fact that I'm a normal Joe uh and I. try and be as much as I I can but there. have been times yeah of course they have. um. uh as mere but there have been times. I've been more of a security before I. was me you know when you know and you. know and that's. you know you know 911 was traumatic for. a variety of reasons thousands of people. lost their lives it was just awful what. it did though was it gave it gave. permission for people to treat all of us.

you know in a way that I'd not. experienced before so when I was growing. up. the p word the N word the W word. sometimes used. and you know. my white friends black friends and me. knew that was that was like that was we. see the Red Mist and they'd be fine. right you couldn't yeah and but. it was never about faith and I'm not. saying one is better than the other and. stuff right but something happened. where.

um it became about faith uh and the. islamophobia stuff uh and there is still. a great sense of solidarity in relation. to people who still defend me who aren't. Muslims and stuff right. what it does is a number of things. firstly if you're a mum or dad and. you're you know and you're Muslim and. your son was thinking about Korean. politics or public life you say you know. what. if someone likes that he can't get in. that sort of stuff. I don't really want you to get involved. in politics or and this happens a lot if. you're somebody who is wants to amplify.

my social media or be supportive. and you do it and then you get this. diatribe of hate because you've done. that there's two responses. a 9 out of ten people say I had no idea. that you received this stuff how can I. help. I'm one out of 10 people say you know. what. this is a bit too much you know I'm not. I'm not gonna actually has it ever. affected you personally. um sleepless nights. in relation to. hate abuse I worry about my I want to.

make sure my wife and kids are safe for. me I'll make sure they're safe. um. at the moment I've got the you know I'm. I'm lucky I've got a police protection. team keeping me safe right. um but we you know the City Halls you. know receives threats and you know so. this where this ridiculous situation. where because of the hatred against me. people are writing letters and emails to. City old staff who in the previous 16. years.

haven't had this we've had enough since. 2000 and we would now provide our staff. and this isn't objective the rejected. space that's receiving hatred but we've. got a duty appear to our staff right our. staff are traumatized upset all the rest. of it so we're now going to support our. staff in ways never done before so that. keeps that worries me the fact they've. impacted my staff reading this stuff the. emails. uh reading the letters that come in the. image of my staff reading the social. media the impacts of my family reading. this uh uh stuff I'm not going to allow. anybody to change my behavior I will not.

cower but also I will not let you know. if you're bullying me but I feel it so. even if I was being affected and I'm not. I wouldn't tell the guys that I'm being. affected because it gives them it gives. them Solace it gives them Comfort it. means they've won I'm not going to do. that but but in this kind of medium I. think there is value in Sharing showing. those sharing that because people don't. realize right so it's it's a world that. we don't know so we don't care about so. we don't as a society do anything about. because we don't even know it exists I. mean much of what you've said is news to. me the fact that you're telling me your. staff need.

I'm presuming psychological support. because of the amount of abuse you're. getting and at the heart of that is your. your religion. and you race. so often. other things will come into it but you. just have to read just just when you get. a chance you know it's not good for your. mental health but when you get a chance. you just have a look at some of the. stuff that that people say about me and. it's not all Bots by the way but it has. infected you because I can tell you I've. had abuse targeted me and it affected me. and I don't mind saying that because I. think it's just it's just the truth to. be fair so has it ever.

has there ever been you know. anxiety worries no no it's affecting me. in the sense that you know I've spoken. to. social media companies and others about. the responsibility they have about their. algorithms about you know employing. staff to take the stuff off. you know my staff not me I reported some. of this stuff to the police and actually. in particularly at some of the people. who've said some of this stuff because. the assignment elements of uh I think. there are issues here. about the ease with which uh social. media allows people with hateful.

spiteful racist criminal views have. those views Amplified where they weren't. 20 years ago so 20 years ago 30 years. ago so when I was growing up right you. could only bully me if you saw me in a. playground or if you saw me down the. street you could call me names that way. you could maybe write me a letter if you. knew where I lived. now you can do it from your bedroom. without even being in the same city as. me the same country as me anonymously. anonymously as well and some of these. algorithms amplify this and and some of. these people have got big followings and. they all jump in the bandwagon uh as.

well and so you know there is a problem. there in relation to how we deal with. this stuff but also listen it's. happening to you speak to. a girl in a secondary school some of the. stuff she now will receive so you know. you know black is going to school now. in their bedroom on social media right. and so you know this is not just an. issue for me I don't want anybody to. feel sorry for me but it's an issue for. everybody for everyone covid speaking of. mental health I heard you said that. during the covered period you you did. suffer a little bit with your own mental. health can you give me some detail on.

what you mean by that yeah look before. we came I know we're talking about you. know return to the office and stuff and. I'm somebody who by the way you don't. realize this at the time. so I'm somebody who I now realize. thrives on working with people being. around people uh on company right and I. didn't really appreciate that until the. pandemic. uh and I'm lucky I've got a decent sized. home my my daughters came up from. University. my wife we got on really well we do you.

know and so we can give each other space. and stuff and so I've got a garden we've. got a dog. but I realized. there was a. there wasn't a light bulb moment. but I. but on hindsight I realized. I stopped shaving you know I you know I. burnt jogging Bobs all day. uh I I wasn't as communicative. um of course I'd shave if I was doing. you know morning breakfast shows or. whatever.

uh I'll I didn't have my mojo I'd like. to think that I can Inspire my team I I. you know you know you know it's like. when you you manage people right. I didn't I just didn't I just I I was. saying not quite right and I couldn't. I didn't know that in real time I didn't. you know. but they were saying and and on. hindsight what I realized was. that there were things I did. in my normal life.

that gave me mental Fitness and it was. not a physical fitness mental Fitness. right. and because I wasn't doing those. I was suffering mental ill health now I. fortunately I needed to be medicalized. but it meant I had to think about the. things I want to do. to keep mental my mental health well and. I struggled and on hindsight. there was a period of time where. I I wasn't top of my game uh because I. now am and because you know after a.

while I realized this and was taking. steps to address that. and I realized I can't. work from home in perpetuity I I need to. be around people I need that buzz. whether it's the banter on the tube. whether it's meeting my staff whether. it's that conversation before I go into. the office the team meeting. I didn't realize. that's what helps me. keep my mental health but also makes me. you know be effective and it's other. things you know sport I didn't realize. how important sport is to me I didn't. realize not playing tennis not going for.

a run. not playing football I didn't realize. that because I thought I did have to. keep I thought I did that to keep. physically fit not realizing actually. it's an internal part in my mental. well-being when you when you think about. your your job as mayor over the last you. know. since you were elected mayor where where. do you think you've let yourself down. [Music]. well that's a good question. um I think I think you alluded to this.

early on but the seven days a week stuff. when you speak to most experts and I. speak lots of privilege you know. speaking to you speak lots of people who. they said that they say that's really. important to get the balance right in. relation to. being fresh for the time we've got to be. on my response is I'm on quite a lot uh. so I've got to use a time when I'm off. to make sure I recharge on batteries. and so I think that pacing myself you. know I've tried to run a marathon as a. Sprint what about policies things you. would have liked to have gotten done but.

you've not been able to get done a lot. of people have leveled the you know. things like housing and will we be. carbon neutral by 2030. um what are the things you look at and. go do you know I failed there yeah well. I'm not gonna answer that question. honestly when I'm running for election. in 467 days time right because the. answer is going to use against me but. let me tell you something we've got. we've done lots of right as well as to. suffered a vlog I think the biggest. thing is that like a real thing where. you can't tell the truth because someone. might use it against you actually I. think the thing that I've been at least. effective about and I've said this. before is is uh by that we've not. managed to play the government the.

importance of developing more powerful. resources to London the governments. my dad used to say that you know you. should judge somebody about the friends. you keep right I've got a different I've. got a different saying which is Judge. Somebody by their enemies. you know and the government don't like. me right and so the politics is the main. reason and so the government. and I think I've I've sometimes not. helped because of my pugilistic nature. and I I I I worry.

have London has been let down because. the government see me as an enemy not. giving London the support they would. give if somebody else was the mayor and. so I've tempered you know since I won. re-election I've tempered some of that. because I realized I can't allow my my. natural adversarial nature my dislike of. the government to get in the way of. doing business with the government so. that's that's the honest answer but by. the way I meant what I said about this. when you said tongue-in-cheek well can. you not be honest yeah because I'm still. in the game right so when you ask a next.

politician. questions like that they'll give you a a. candid answer but you can't exactly look. it's not asking ask us Tyson what's the. weakness in your game what what you know. you you wouldn't do that I'm not. sometimes in Fury uh but I'm still on. top of my game it's really interesting I. I partly think it's an interesting game. politics and and all this stuff but a. game it's not a game you just said. you're still in the games I'm using your. word but it's an interesting game to me. because I don't feel like politicians. can ever be truly themselves they can't.

truly speak their mind and I am part I. wonder if that's actually acting against. them I think there's almost this. political kind of. um this political I don't know. philosophy or whatever where you kind of. have to be a little bit cagey you kind. of have to never really answer a. question you kind of have to to get by I. said no so to his credit Trump the thing. he did and I hate to say Trump did. anything well but the thing he did you. know what you're getting with this guy. whether it's good bad driven by. narcissism whatever. you have this sense that he's telling.

you what he thinks I've got at least 17. responses to them let me give you a. couple. so one is which is interesting is I. think Trump's one of Trump's tweets that. he said against me was hashtag. Stone Cold loser describing me right. well he lost his re-election I didn't. true right so he's a one-time president. right Barack Obama isn't even George W. bush isn't do you think about it. uh he's gonna try come back uh he's got. a good chance I think DeSantis will.

probably get the Republican nomination. I'm coming back honestly. uh well I wanted to come back and be. beaten so yeah so I think I think. politics uh you know the reason why I. said about you know I'm still in the. game is because it's a good metaphor. because I I you know I learned a lot. from Sports I love sports and stuff and. a lot of leadership skills I get from. sports but let me tell you why why. you're both right and wrong in relation. to your observation which I think is I. think is is right and it's wrong. so when you're an MP I think you're.

right I think most MPS. have got to be inauthentic on Ty because. in Parliament. a thing called Collective responsibility. and you've got to stay in your lane for. a start so if you're a transport. minister. you can really enter that transport. because if I review about health it'll. it'll annoy the health secretary. or if I've got a view about foreign. policy or health effect it'll upset the. foreign secretary right. orb the budget and so you've got to stay. in your lane which is which is a. frustration because you've got to stand. by the policies they've got in their.

other areas right it's going to be. inauthentic. um but also this thing called collect. responsibility so inside the cabinet. what happens is. if there's a good strong prime minister. there'll be an argument and discussion. inside cabinet about policy. you can have a different view you can be. honest then. once you reach a view when you leave the. cabinet all of you. have on a defend that view and be. Advocate with you and that's why you're. spot on so and it reminds me being a. lawyer I that I've got to say hand on. heart there were cases I had where I.

didn't agree with the brief or like it. but I had to argue the case I was the. lawyer right and the same goes we were. MP the difference when you're the mayor. or the president. you can be yourself so what's Labor. getting wrong. um. I think lots of things right to be fair. come on there's no I mean I think I. think you know but when I think about. the last two three years since Kia. became leader we've got a lot of things. right I think the frustration voters. have which I think is not fair is we're. not putting enough flesh in the detail. right and there's a reason for that I.

explained so so the answer your question. direct answer is we're not giving enough. retail policy. enough reasons to vote late labor. yes time for change is effective but but. people would say what lab is getting. wrong is not giving details of policy my. response is hold on a sec. you've got a peek at the right time the. general election might not be until 20. months away so if Rachel Reeves had a. chance and I came up with a policy on on. the budget. well the economy in 20 minutes time is.

going to be very different from the. economy now how can she honestly be. asked to give a tax and spend policy now. well Kirsten announces a great policy. the windfall levy on energy companies. sunak Nixa dilutes it a bit so soon it. gets the credit or not care your best. policies have been stunned so this is. and so the point is you've got to peek. at the right time and the power ration. has got to come in the weeks before. that's interesting Direction because the. question question I asked is what's. Labor getting wrong. and you didn't answer that you didn't I. didn't explain it's just the reasons. that's the public perception of the. Labor's getting wrong yeah I'm saying.

what do you think Labor's getting wrong. yeah but but Steve that's my point. listen if you say nothing that's fine no. no no listen but my point is. that that there's two points of that one. is. uh I say this with respect and love you. know advice I give to care giving. private not in public right that's the. first thing and secondly. there's a general election in 20 months. time. and you know my point about you know we. have a you know I'm still in the game is. is you know I want to make sure that. privately the views I've got about.

whatever's getting wrong I sorted out. before the general election rather than. telegraphing to the opposition things. were getting wrong so they can you know. using the boxing metaphor you try and. not curious armor out and that's but. that's kind of similar to what you were. saying about the. and MPS having to kind of. stay stay in the lane because they can't. be critical of anything else that's. happening around them I get it it's a. party I guess that's how the system. works but as a as a muggle he doesn't. really isn't that interested well I'm. interested in politics but I'm not. heavily engaged but here's your handsome.

though Stephen. and it's a good conundrum to have. which is the next general election. probably. one of two people named prime minister. right sunak or cursed armor unless sunac. is goes the way of listro and Boris. Johnson right. and so politics isn't perfection it's. relativism and so you've got to choose. between one of these two there's no. there's nobody else it's not Kirsten or. perfection. it's the appearance of perfection right. because as you said she's perfect though.

In Our Lifetime but that's what I'm. saying it's the appearance of it in the. sense that like you can't criticize. labor. so I can't believe me I can look. publicly I mean so publicly in the last. in the last two weeks I criticized labor. right on brexit I Believe brexit's been. an unmitigated disaster right I believe. uh that uh we've got to be much closer. to you and that includes by the way yes. outside the EU now we are outside the U. but being members of the single market. and Customs Union that is not Labor's.

policy right how does labor get back in. power when I was younger listen again if. I'm wrong about any of this political. stuff please like with my dates and. stuff please forgive me but I'm just. saying um when I was younger laborer in. power and then since pretty much over. the last 10 years labor labor haven't. been back in power what's Labor getting. wrong why isn't resonating with the the. voters and how does labor go about. fixing that so the last. hundred years I mean we've only been in. power for a third of that to give you an. idea of you know uh you know we're not.

the man united of politics you know uh. and so uh a number of things we want to. do to win back power first we've got to. change ourselves so we've got a the. first part of it is. reorganizing labor ourselves so internal. stuff the internal wiring is wrong right. what's wrong with it. so so this idea that anybody is. successful you know we've got to bash. this idea that we you know that the way. we fundraise for our party the way we. um employ staff and Fire Staff this.

sense of you know uh nepotism and stuff. there's lots of things we've got wrong. you know um in the last few years you. know we sort ourselves that including. organization employ the right people get. rid of the wrong people uh have a you. know have proper social media campaign. that sort of stuff proper campaigning. techniques or so the internal stuff. you've got to do the stuff you don't see. how we select candidates right all that. sort of stuff right. the second part of it is Be an Effective. opposition expose the Tories and call. them out when they get things wrong we.

can't rely up on the mainstream media. you know eight percent of the major. media is supportive of the conservative. party right it's just a fact. so we've got to Be an Effective. opposition in calling them out and hold. them to account right including stuff. um that would otherwise not be seen so. call them our relation to policies on. the economy uh you know call them on the. policy relation to Health Service call. them arrested policy of Education. um and the third part which is the. crucial part is to show the country. we've got policies to Be an Effective. Government and that's that's my point.

about the perception is we've not done. the third part yet and my answer is. holding this door 20 months to go my. point is this. I don't want to win election. because it's time for change by itself I. want you to be inspired and Infused to. vote labor because of our policy offer. and that's your challenge back to me. saying what's your opponent why vote. labor right that's interesting I've been. doing a lot of reading over the last. couple of weeks because I'm writing my. new book and I've spent you know a good. 30 days in total probably in the jungle. reading about psychology and why people.

um what makes people behave and act and. whatever and the the uh the clear answer. from all of that research that I've done. and all the studies I went through going. back almost 100 years was that people. responded emotionally instead of to. logic and so when you say that you need. to lead with better policies and stuff. it kind of goes it stands in the face of. all of this like psychological research. I've been reading that says in fact. people are illogical emotional beings. that are driven by their fears and. desires and when I think about politics. honestly right and I'm just being.

completely honest I I think a lot of it. is actually just a very. instinctive feeling about the person. you know and this is why I go back to. the point about authenticity and why I. really struggle with politicians. sometimes is. they just don't feel hit like humans. they feel like these like robots that. can't say anything or can't speak their. mind and I just honestly I get that my. my view with labor is if they manage to. get someone in to lead the party who. felt like my mate that I could I kind of.

related to and tell me the good and the. bad and was just a bit of a normal. person not a suit not super rich not. whatever didn't go to eating or whatever. it is talking about both sides here I. actually think they'd win I think from. many people and Boris Johnson did win. right let's look if the test was and the. test was who do I wanna have a. cappuccino with yeah. or who do I want to figure out the. government finances get us through the. pandemic uh mend our relationship with. Europe. there's a different answer be and I. you're right it's an emotion and so. there's a great phrase right you. campaign in poetry and you government. prose because exactly it's the emotion.

right yeah you know the emotion is. really important but my point is is. we see where it's got our country where. has emotion got our country and so I. think actually one of the failures of. politicians and I I also plead guilty. is we've lost the Arts to be good. teachers right political education is. lacking in our country and so I think a. good politician should use his or her. role. in an unpatronizing way to educate. people you know you had to come you ask.

me really good questions about crime. right now the easy thing to say you know. just lock them up let's arrest ourselves. out of this right that place your. emotion because you want the people who. burgled your home. to be arrested. put in prison and the keys run away. right probably I'm just afraid right. but actually it's my job to in an. unpassionate way try and educate you. without excusing criminality but saying. it's a bit more complex than that right. yeah but you understand though I sat. here I get it I sat here with a. neuroscientist called tally Charlotte. and she has basically written a book.

about this about how the brain um has a. default towards listening to emotion she. actually referenced Trump she said in. that debate with the with the doctor I. think it was in the 2008 elections or. 2012 elections when asked about the. autism vaccines. the. the Doctor Who Um Trump was up against. in the debate reference facts stats and. figures. trump it then comes to Trump and he. tells a story about one of his mates. with a big needle you know he uses all.

of this descriptive emotional. storytelling language and tally even. though she knows the science around. vaccines she said. she was a little bit put off giving her. daughter. the autism vaccine after hearing Trump. even though she knew it was nonsense and. for me that just goes to show the power. of like emotion and storytelling versus. the feeble influence that status I saw. in the brexit campaign right so what. happened exactly is is Nigel farage and. his lot put up this poster yeah but NHS. and about it the poster was a queue of.

syrians. given the impression that they're going. to flood our country because of the. turkey allegedly joining the European. Union and emotionally that played to. people's concerns around immigration I. mean brexit was a proxy of immigration. right and so it was an emotional stuff. because rationally. it doesn't make sense if you work for. Nissan in Sunderland to be voting to. leave the EU because you know your your. boss is going to be affected by it right. because it's and so I don't disagree. with what you're saying your analysis I. get it it's emotion rather than rational.

my point is. yes that's true in relation to human. behavior but actually at the same time. we've got to be explained to people that. actually it is an X Factor. it's about who's the best person to run. our country and sometimes that person. you know does is not going to be sexy is. not going to be charismatic some. sometimes he will be another a course of. an election and a campaign he can't be. personality comes out because you're. right personality does matter to an.

extent but actually you know I want our. leaders to know how to you know how you. know how balance she works understand. what makes a business tick understands. the importance of Entrepreneurship job. creation Public Service stuff I want. that too it's just it just seems like. deep innate in human psychology is this. desire to be motivated most by our fears. our desires and and our emotions versus. logic and sense and maybe this is a. little bit of a skewed perspective I. have because I've spent the last 30 days. reading about this psychology and why. people are influenced but.

um but the thing is to listen I wanted. to ask on the positive side what are you. what are you most proud of. um following your tenure so far as. London mayor what are the things that. you go do you know what we really had an. impact here for the development of. londoners air qualities that the obvious. example think of God I walk when I was. walking in from the tube station I saw. the ultra Mission Street uh that Hackney. had done really really uh well so we've. managed to so you don't see this stuff. um none of us sees this stuff but if we. were grown up in London in the 50s you'd. see the smoke.

right because the power stations you. could see it usually couldn't walk. because that's more than more than a. minute and a half it was it was a killer. as well so we can't see the nitrogen. Dark Side the nitrogen oxide the. particular matter certainly the carbon. emissions but at least more than four. thousand premature deaths a year at. least to children having stunted lungs. at least to adults with a whole host of. health issues me included asthma. premature heart disease deaths cancer. and so forth we've managed to in two. years reduce the toxic care in the. centralized City by half and we're. improving it more across our City's air.

quality is obviously a big one Council. housing you mentioned uh housing we last. year Well actually the last few years we. have completed more homes in London. because of our policies than any year. since the 1930s more Council homes than. any Asians 1970s more generally. affordable homes than any year since. records began not enough we've got to do. much more to increase Supply to meet uh. demand slightly shy of your goal. uh no my God is much more so my target. is 50 000 and but we're not going to get.

there and I've said to the government we. need more support and it's actually. There's an opportunity if there's a. recession coming because of the way the. counter Central nature of the property. Market we can have more home buildings. actually that creates jobs and people. paying taxes and so forth look what. we've done in public transport my first. five years we froze fares the night tube. are up and running uh you know we've got. buses going all across London now more. buses too many more kilometers of buses. next year the Elizabeth line uh the. northern line extension parking. Riverside extension look at what we.

talked about relationship mentors a. hundred thousand young people have a. mentor made progress in reducing uh. crime invested in young people and if. you're elected again. what's your number one Focus for London. it's all about a future where you know. we can deal with the the four issues. which are really important. fairer City so those who you know uh. need a helping out get the helping hand. a safer City I think I think. the perception is our city isn't safe on.

address the reality and the perception. uh Garena City we've got to reduce. carbon emissions I was the first Global. City to declare a client emergency I've. changed the next genotype in 2050 when I. won't be around as the mayor 2030 right. will we get there and uh uh yeah but. only a third of the powers I've got the. other two thirds we need government. support retrofitting building sites uh. so forth the transport we've got we're. making progress there but you think. we're gonna uh yeah and if there's a. change of government in two years time I. hope they will be with care as prime. minister we definitely will get there. and the more prosperous city as well I.

think I think our competitors are also. our collaborators the parises the. Singapore's the Hong Kongs the New Yorks. but there are competitors as well good. more prosperous. you're 52 now right yeah if you were to. um God forbid if you were to. If This Were to be your last day. what regrets would you have about the. life you've chosen to live and how. you've lived it. crikey. um.

maybe not work for seven days a week. maybe more time with with my family. um. I don't think I've seen enough of the. world. you know I've only ever lived in two. tonight it's been three years in North. London one year in godalming at Law. School uh when I was in Guildford. uh I mean I've seen the world as a. tourist right but not not I'm not really. experienced it you mentioned the long. time you spent in the jungle and stuff. and I've not I've not done that maybe. I'm I missed that. um. got a picture here for you that's my dad. he passed away was it two thousand.

September the 4th 2003. um I remember vividly it was. it was the one thing in my life that's. that's really knocked me sideways. um. and. I still grieve my dad you know. um and I've never got help even though I. was struggling the time. because I think I think. you should grieve for people you love it.

should affect your mental illness it. should uh debilitate you. um. he was this amazing man you know this. was a guy who. um. no ways of Graces. watch the news he'd read the papers he. would spend time with the kids he would. you know he would never say no to. overtime in the garage never say what's. on the garage. thoroughly decent man he when he retired. he would spend time in the mosque he was.

the mazim the moisin is the guy that. doesn't hold a prayer did you did you. did you get to did you speak to him. properly no no that's that's a regret. that we didn't get the quality you know. Anisa was. my eldest daughter was. five when it four when he passed away. Mara was two that didn't get the name. really I didn't have the he would have. loved me being a man he would have loved. you know my support in a Southern. Cathedral with the swearing ceremony how. old were you when he passed away I was. 33 and what I think about it I was too.

young when he passed and you know I. didn't I was depressed at the time I was. depressed you know I saw this boy that. that this I wasn't I wasn't functioning. I threw myself I threw myself into work. um shortly after I ran to be the labor. candidate actually because that's how I. got through this uh time but I think. about my youngest brother was only 25. when he passed and and I was and and. we've now I think since we've had kids. that's that's made us much more touchy. feeling talking about feelings and stuff.

we hug and we say I love you and stuff. and we are there words unsaid to him. yeah without a doubt what are those. words. um. yeah they're between it they're between. him and me to be honest but um. we have a closing tradition on this. podcast where the last guest asks a. question for the next guest. um not knowing who they're leaving it.

for you will know who this person is but. I can't tell you. um. the question they've left is everyone. gets really nervous when I get to this. question I don't know why it's weird. nobody cares about my questions but then. when this one comes it takes people. forever to answer if you could give one. piece of advice to yourself at the start. of. your life what would it have been. that's a good one. um.

enjoy the experience. why that. because often. I don't know if you get to do it you're. so busy you don't get to enjoy it. uh. when you speak to people who have we. talked with. talked teasingly about being an. exposition. they they follow the memory. but they didn't enjoy the experience. and I remember saying I remember famous. footballer Gary Neville been interviewed.

said he didn't really enjoy it and I. think I found it odd you know you you're. not enjoying the experience uh and so I. enjoy the experience you know and. actually. you know when you're ambitious you're. always trying to do the next thing right. and it's and I think ambition is. important is important to you know to. have you know. a grasp greater than your reach. but in the meantime enjoy the experience. have you enjoyed the experience loved it. I loved it but you know about that but.

but question am I saving it with my. friends and family enough have I just. been too busy and too blinkered in. relation to. in relation to sharing the enjoyment. experience. um and I tried I tried doing that more. as I try and I try and include. silent the girls more in the stuff that. I do to make sure they enjoy the. experience and my friends and and you. know my my family and so forth. thank you thank you for your time um and. thank you for being here I am I'm very. as I said I'm very compelled by by. politicians and the world of politics.

because it's it's not a world that I. know necessarily well but it's world. world that I observe with great Intrigue. and and wonder. um I'd say dissatisfaction largely the. cylinder just because it just seems to. be so far away from the like what I love. about I don't know humans these. politicians you admire either overseas. or here. um I loved Barack Obama I thought he was. Great America yeah I know yeah exactly I. think I think because he he felt. incredibly human I remember watching him.

cry on after Sandy Hook and I he just. felt like a good man with a good family. and good morals and I kind of felt like. he had. he'd uh he was he was authentic. um that's a good one yeah I think he's. probably he's my number one. um the problem is you set your bar so. high I know none of us are Barack Obama. yeah I know but I think everyone has the. potential to be to to anything. Obama's an easy one who else. oh gosh.

I like Bernie Sanders as well another. guy that I just I I connect with and I. think he's very authentically driven. um to make the world a better place. um and I see that in your story as well. I see you know when you hear your your. upbringing and you hear you know what. your parents went through and your. grandparents went through and that the. plight of your. um those that came before you you see. that you can see a clear reason why. sometimes I struggle with that sometimes. I struggle to understand why people are. going into politics I think it's because. of status or because they want to be. famous or they want power and now. um. but but I don't see that in you I don't.

see you know you had a very well paid. job before you chose to to embark on. this career path and your origin story. is riddled with all the motivation one. would need to pursue such a path so. so thank you thank you for coming here. today um I wish you the very very best. on your re-election. um I I applaud you on the fact that. knife crime has gone down since you. became. um mayor of London and I would hope that. by the time you leave office the city. feels a lot safer than it currently does. for me I really do hope we hit our um.

carbon emissions targets by 2030 we're. able to build more housing and I hope. London holds its status in the world as. a place that people want to come live. and stay long long beyond their own sort. of personal successes So yeah thank you. so much. at the start it's very uncomfortable for. me to hear that but it's important you. hear that and this is one of the things. I've tried to do is is rather than well. it's very easy and you're very generous. in your comments about me and my faith. and my my background.

to be the only person in my position who. looks like me I get this there's this. you know there's only one of me right. what's fun and and the same goes for you. but what you do which is which I've. tried to do as well in different ways is. put down letters for others right. because there shouldn't just be one guy. like you there should be many others. like you and the same goes in politics. as well and I meant what I said because. the interesting about you and the same. applies to these useless you you ever. watch what Idris Elba does or. resolvement all these other guys. their work ethic and what worries me is.

somehow. somebody's told young people you can get. rich quick. there's a shortcut to being. the mayor or running the law firm or. being a successful entrepreneur or being. a pop star you ever listened to what Ed. Sheeran did before they became. successful or Adele. or stormzy that work ethic and I've met. what I said about you because listen. obviously there aren't many people in. your oppositions who look like you has. to be frank who dress like you who talk. like you who've got your backstory now.

you've never asked to be a role model. right. you will never meet people who look up. to you but it's a fact right and so I'm. not gonna say I'm the mayor right and my. job is to you know do this thing what I. call the Learning promise. work hard I'll give you the help in hand. you can be anything and I and I love the. way you do it with with ease and make. people feel if I can do it you can do it. and that's that's not because you don't. say it like it's easy I did it. but if I can do you can do it but you've. got to work hard yeah and I'm really. happy I'm really happy that we have a.

London mayor that looks like you you. know your presence alone is London mayor. is a really Positive Single signal to. lots of young. um ethnically diverse kids that are. hoping to set foot in politics and it's. a real shame that you've been treated in. terms of the death threats and the. online abuse and such of all the way but. unfortunately that seems to be the. nature of nature of the world and social. media hopefully we can change that. thanks a lot. hahaha. [Music].

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