Robert Greene: How To Seduce Anyone, Build Confidence & Become Powerful | E232

Some of the greatest seducers were not. good-looking at all. What are the. qualities of a great seducer? I'm. revealing stuff I shouldn't be. revealing. Robert Greene is one of the. best-selling authors in history. An internationally renowned expert on. power strategies. Been referenced in songs by Jay-Z, Kanye. West, and Drake. Written six international best-sellers. that have become legendary. Why did you. write a book about seduction? Seduction. is a high form of power. People will do. what you want without ever even. realizing. Seduction is a mating ritual.

You can't just swipe and get it. But, because of all the dating apps, if you. are able to understand the language of. seduction, you're going to have so much. more power and success than anybody. else. One thing about words is people. can lie, but body language it doesn't. lie. You master that language, you can. start deciphering all this. People are giving you. It's about. psychology, and it's about how you carry. yourself. If you feel confident, it will. naturally radiate through your gestures. But, what is real confidence, and how. does one build it? Confidence comes from.

We've talked about the topic of powers. But, in 2018, you had a stroke. In that moment, it sounds like your. power had been taken from you. The left. side of my body is paralyzed, and that. was not easy. I've got to find a. strategy to deal with all this. Please understand that the ability that. you have now to run, to walk, to type, it can be taken away from you. It's. miserable. Please don't take it for. granted.

Before we get into this episode, just. wanted to say thank you first and. foremost for being part of this. community. Um the team here at The Diary. Of A CEO is now almost 30 people, and. that's literally because you watch and. you subscribe, and you um leave. comments, and you like the videos, that. that this show has been able to grow. And it's the greatest honor of my life. to sit here with these incredible people. and just selfishly ask them questions. that I'm pondering over or worrying. about in my life. But, this is just the. beginning for The Diary Of A CEO. We've. got big, big plans to scale this show um. to every corner of the world and to to.

to diversify our guest selection. And. that's enabled by you, by simple thing. that you guys do, which is to watch. So, if there's one thing you could do to. help this show and to help us continue. to do what we do, it's just to hit the. subscribe button. If you like this show, if you like what we do here, if you. watch these episodes, please just hit that subscribe button. Means the world. Let's get on with it. What do I need to know about you and.

your your earliest years to. to understand the life that you went on, that journey you went on, and the person. you came to be? Well, uh I grew up here. in Los Angeles, not far from where we. are, in in a neighborhood called Baldwin. Hills, and then we moved to another. neighborhood. Had a very nice childhood, very. middle-class family. My father was a salesman his whole life, worked for the same company for 40. years. Just sold chemical supplies. Um and you know, my parents kind of left.

me alone a lot. I was basically my. sister almost kind of raised me in a way. and. and I you know, I had a very nice. childhood, kind of left alone, sort of. an introvert. Books kind of shaped me. I became an. avid reader in early age. No knew I wanted to be a writer. Got heavily into drugs, I'm afraid, in. high school because that's that was the. time in the where I went to school and. in college. Had some great experiences. I look very. fondly back even on my drug experiences,

even though they got kind of depressing. after a while. But it kind of shaped me in in some. ways. And you know, that was that was me. growing up, you know? And if And I had a. an attitude or a. a lens in which I looked at people from. a distance. Like I was always sort of. obsessed. with. people wore masks and the way I looked. at it, even when I looked at my my. parents and their friends and I said, "What is really going on behind there. the masks that they wear and all the.

social niceties going on? What is behind what is really the human. animal like?" And so, these are kind of the themes that's that. that were make big part of my me growing. up. From what I read, you had. a lot of different jobs and a lot of. different industries up until the point. when you wrote um the first of your many. books called The 48 Laws of Power back. in 1998. And I was looking at all of these. different jobs you'd had and they all. seemed to be completely different from. one another. So, then trying to.

understand how you arrived at a moment. where you then wrote a book on the topic. and subject matter of power. um having not been, you know, uh. psychology graduate. or. seemingly worked in any industry related. to like human psychology seemed to be. really peculiar to me. Yeah, and also I never really had a lot. of power up until that point. So, it. wasn't like I knew everything about. being a leader or anything. Um you know, a lot of things that happen.

in life are kind of. by coincidence or serendipitous. You. don't necessarily plan on it, which is. sort of when you look back on it, you. can see a kind of an odd plan going on, like a destiny or fate, but in the. moment I didn't feel that. Um I had all of these different jobs as. you mentioned some of them completely. unrelated. You know, I worked in. construction, I had a construction job, I worked in a detective agency, I was a. tour guide, I helped write an. encyclopedia, I taught English in Spain, you know, on.

and on and on and on and on. But I I was searching I wanted to be a. writer and a writer needs experiences. I just was hungry for weird experiences. You know, I never really stuck at any. one job and by the time you're 37, 38. you know, my parents are starting to. worry about me. I'm starting to worry. about me. I'm getting a little bit. depressed. Even have moments where. suicidal thoughts are floating in my. brain like I'm very ambitious. I know I. could do something well, but it's never. come together.

And so here's the serendipity part. I'm. in Italy for a job, one of my 80. different jobs, and I meet a man who's a. book packager there. on this particular job we're on. And he's he's a Dutchman. I'm not going. to imitate him, but he asked me if I had. any ideas for a book. And suddenly. all of the painful experiences in my. life working in Hollywood, all the. I've worked for, all these. weird politicking, all the manipulative. games, all the crap that I had seen, it.

just came like almost vomiting out of me. and I said, you know, here we are 20 What was 1990s, in 20th. century back then. Here we are in the. late 20th century. and people don't dress like they did in. the days of Machiavelli, right? They. don't wear wigs and stuff, but it's the. same damn thing. It's the same bloody. battles going on, the same. manipulations, the same kind of, you. know, people all don't reveal who they. are. And it's a timeless game of power, just.

the same as Louis the 14th or Cesare. Borgia or the people, the CEOs in the. late 20th century. So this this timeless. thing and I as I'm telling him this, his. eyes are lighting up. He says, "Wow, this could be this could really be a. book.". And you know, he said, "Look, Robert, I'll pay you to. live. while you write half the book and then. we'll sell it.". And as I told you before, I was. desperate. It was my get rich or die. trying moment. I went back to Los.

Angeles. I borrowed money from my. parents cuz I was that poor. And I wrote a treatment and he loved it. and then the rest is history. That's. sort of. my long-winded answer to your question. That's so interesting. It's crazy how in. life. things can just take such a. turn. out of nothing. And you never know what. that thing is going to be. And I mean, you say the rest is history there. Give. me an idea of the success of that book, The 48 Laws of Power, because I mean,

I've seen it everywhere for for as long. as I've been looking at books. So, I I. what's the Give me some quantify the. global success of that book. Quantify? Yeah. Well, here in the US, it's it's sold. quite a bit over 2 million copies, which. is great. The weird thing is, it's. selling now more than it ever has sold. before. In other words, the the. percentage of books that were selling. here in 2023 is greater than any period. before. So, it's accelerating.

Which is insane, you know? And even my. English publisher's having the same uh. is telling me the same stuff. So, it's kind of accumulated it. It. started off a little bit slowly. I mean, we got press, but it became this kind of. cult thing. I've had very little um. publicity in mainstream media, which was. big back then. It's not big anymore, thank God. But, um. it was a word of mouth. It's like, "Have. you heard about this book? It's kind of. dark and blah blah blah blah blah.". It got on a few television shows. There.

was this show, a reality show with. boxers. I think it was called The. Contender, in which the finalist held up a copy of. the book and said this book helped me. get to where I am now. And it sold like. crazy. It got into the hip-hop stream, you know? Jay-Z was the first person I. ever saw quoting the book in in in. print, in in Playboy interview. And. then, you know, 50 Cent and all that and. Drake and all these people. That really. kind of set it into the stratosphere. So, it's it's slowly become a bigger and.

bigger thing. And um. I had no idea, you know? I thought it. was a weird book and it could be. successful, but I had no idea the. journey I was about to begin. It's. it's it's weird. That journey of writing this book, has. your. have your feelings towards the book. evolved or changed over time? Because. society moves on, you move on as an. individual as a human, you learn new. things, you mature, and then the book is. kind of held in time. Not really.

Um I I my philosophy in life is is never. look back, regret nothing. You know, it's it's there, I did it. It came in a. particular moment in my life and in and. in the zeitgeist, and things have. changed a little bit. But I was it was a very serious effort. to to try and get at something timeless. Now, yes, there's a dark side to it and. maybe I've moved on from that. And I did. honestly, when I wrote my fourth book, Mastery, I was a little bit concerned that young.

people were getting. to were thinking that the whole game of. life is about politics, manipulation. So, I wrote a book to kind of. counter that. But I I I think the book is is true and. it's held up. I think. if I look at business, what's going on. in the business world, I kind of got. I think I hit it on the nail about what. goes on in the dynamics and the power. game. You know, I wrote a book on human nature.

and the idea is we were formed hundreds. of thousands of years still in. particular circumstances, our brains are. wired a certain way. Yes, we're very sophisticated. Yes, we. have the internet. Yes, I'm here being. interviewed by you on a podcast. It's. pretty insane. But we haven't. fundamentally changed. The same raw. emotions of envy, of aggression, of of. you know, it's worrying about our. status, about having to disguise. ourselves and appear like we're saintly.

and loving that we don't have a shadow. which we all have. None of that has changed. So, yeah, I wouldn't write that book now. because I'm at a different place in life. and and I understand that, but. I have I don't I'm not ashamed of it in. any way. I stand by it and I think I hit. at something real. What is in your your definition, what is. power? You know, I was really compelled. when you were talking about the. evolution evolutionary roots of power, but like at its essence, what is power?

It's not what you think it is. It's not, you know, Vladimir Putin or presidents. or Biden or all these political figures. and these big games. Power is a feeling. It's an essence. It's an emotion. It's a. It's a human need and desire. And really, what power is is a sense of. understanding yourself. and and being able to control yourself. So, the way I look at it, I like to look. at it not through the lens of great. power politics, but as as an average.

everyday human being here in the United. States or in England. The feeling that you have. with your children, with your spouse, with your colleagues, the people who work for you, the sense that you have no control, that you can't influence them with your. ideas, that you can't get them to maybe, you know, soften some of their ugly. behavior if they if they have that, that. you can't get them interested in helping. you with a project or whatever, is the.

most miserable feeling a human being can. have. Malcolm X had a quote that I love, which. is. absolute power corrupts, but absolute powerlessness corrupts even. more. I'm I'm butchering it, but that was the. gist of it. The feeling of powerlessness is actually. more corrupting than the feeling of. having a lot of power. You It makes It turns people into being. passive-aggressive, into playing all. kinds of weird games, negative games to.

get power. You want to feel that you have a degree. of control over events in your life, over people, over your future. And that to me is what it power is, right? And so, some of that involves these games that I. I mentioned in there, and some of it. goes beyond the 48 Laws of Power, which. I've tried to indicate in my other. books. But it's the sense that I'm not helpless. in this world.

I remember when I first entered the work. world. as a very naive college graduate with. all these ideals and things I'd read, cuz I was studying literature and. languages. I'm like, "Man, this is weird. People. are playing all these kind of games. I'm. in over my head." I made mistakes. I got. fired for being, you know, too brash, for for outshining the master. It was. painful, right? And so, learning You don't have to use the Laws. of Power. I don't advocate crushing your.

enemy totally. I hope I don't have any. enemies ever that I need to crush ever. You just need to know these things, so. that when you enter the work world, you're not naive, you're not stupid, you. don't make the same kind of mistakes. that I made. You spare yourself the. pain. You understand the most. fundamental thing about human nature. People have egos. Even your boss has an ego. You think he. He or she doesn't, because they're. powerful. They have They're even more. insecure than other people.

You need to be aware of these things, so. that you don't inadvertently make them. feel insecure and suffer the. consequences. So, um that's I don't know. That's sort. of my idea of power that I was trying to. describe there. The way you describe it. is more of a sort of intrinsic, um. force, perception of yourself. When people. think of power, they think of having. control over others or their influence. over others, but you've kind of made it. more of a internal. force. Yeah, well, if you can't control.

yourself, then you're in a lot of. trouble in this world, right? Because. when you just naturally are yourself. doing things, you're going to offend. people. You learn early on we're social. animals. I have to tailor my behavior, you know? If you go on babbling about. all about how you feel and think, etc., and you just say what's the first thing. on your mind, you're going to end up. having a very. very short career. You're going to be. saying things that are going to offend. people. You're going to be making a fool. of yourself. You're going to be saying. things that you end up regretting,

right? So, you have no self-control. And if you see somebody who has no. self-control, it makes them it makes you look like. you're not powerful. If you can't. control yourself, how can you control. anything in your environment? How can. you be a leader, right? So, you have to learn. certain things about about your nature, about who you are, and and not just just. be anybody. You have to kind of tailor. your appearances as well. Because for good or for bad, I I'm a.

believer in looking at the human animal. without shame and embarrassment, just as. we are, right? And appearances matter. It's the animal part of our nature. We we are we look at we look we judge. people by how they how they how they. appear, how they dress, their tone of voice, their body. language, etc., etc. It would be in an ideal world, we wouldn't judge people by appearances. We would just judge them by what's.

inside of them. Yes, I agree with that. But that we're not ideal. We're not. descended from angels. We're descended. from primates. So, you have to understand that appearances. matter. And this is part. of the game. And so, you have to control your appearances a. little bit. You have to tailor it. You. have to be a bit of actor in this world. on and on and on. You know, these are things that people. don't like to admit about ourselves. We. like to think that we we're much more.

much more idealistic that we're that. these things really don't matter in the. end. And I wish it were that way, but it's. not. And so, um I'm a bit more of a. realist when it comes to things like. that. But, yeah. As you were talking about this. need to keep up appearances to some. degree in order to survive and to fit. into the the tribes that we form in our. lives, it made me think about how many. guests I've had on this podcast who work. in maybe the the entertainment industry. or other industries. Yeah. You know,

they're they're famous or whatever. And. they report that keeping up appearances. had a really detrimental impact on their. happiness and their fulfillment in life. because in some cases they, you know, it. meant that they were doing a job as a. presenter and had to always be happy. when inside they didn't feel that. And. maybe the contrast of reality and um and. perception caused them a lot of harm. Or. they've built a life around things that. they're not interested in. I think you. you touched on some of that in Mastery. Yeah. Um that's the that's the question. I have, which is keeping up appearances.

and the impact that that has on your. happiness. Are you wearing a mask Mhm. um. and happiness? What's the relationship? I talk about it in the 48 Laws of Power. where. you have to play this this game in life. It's a kind to me it's a form of wisdom, which is. it's a wisdom that used to exist like in. the 18th century. I read a book that had a big impact on. me many years ago called The Fall of. Public Man by Richard Sennett, in which.

he described like cafe life in London in. the 18th century or France. And he was. saying back then when you entered the. public arena or your cafe, you knew you. were an actor. You left the house, you. put on the mask, and you had fun. You. know, you knew it was like fun. It was. play. You know, when you're a child, you. like playing games. You like putting on. costumes. You like playing your parents. or some character you saw on TV. It's. part of human nature. We like to play.

these games. We're role players. We're. actors. And he was saying in the 18th. century, that was just a given in life. That when you entered the public realm, you knew you were an actor. And then. when you went home to your wife, your. family, or your husband, or wherever, you dropped the mask. You would you. breathe a deep sigh of relief, go, "Now. I can be who I am." Right? And and it. wasn't a problem. It didn't create. neuroses. It didn't create this like, "What's wrong with me? I'm I I don't. know who I am anymore.".

So, people now, the problem now is we. don't have distance from that social. realm. And so, we think that if we're. acting, that's who we are. But it's not. It's just that's part of being a social. animal is playing a role. You know, I. did a book with 50 Cent. And he kind of. exemplifies a lot of that. He plays a role in life. You know, when. I met him, I I thought, "Uh-oh.". I was kind of intimidated. I was a. little bit afraid. You know, the thug.

This is a guy even when I met him, he. was, you know, just a few years away. from being shot and all this stuff. And I met him, and he was the nicest person in the. world. He was almost kind of sweet. He'd. hate it if I said that word, but he was. sweet, right? He was very down-to-earth. He was very calm, etc. He's playing a. role when he goes out and he plays that. person, and he knows it. He knows it's. like He doesn't take it seriously. You. know, he had this big beef with Kanye. West back when I was doing the the the.

book with him. And then I met the two of. them in Vegas when they were there for. the awards. They were like the best of. friends. They were joking. It was just a. game they were playing, right? So, what. I tell people is. we all are actors. Humans are born actors. We learn at a. very early age to play that kind of. game. It's kind of fun sometimes to do that, you know? Have a enjoy that part of life, but. don't think that it don't get it. confused with who you are in your.

essence. That's sort of the dance you're playing. between those two things. I understand. what you're saying and a lot of it has. to do as you said related to mastery. Where people end up in a career. that doesn't suit them. And I look I I I I think I understand. what you're getting at. When I look at. like presenters or people in the news. and they and they have to smile and be. so cheerful. I go. man, what a drag. I'd hate to be like. that. You know? That is so false. Don't you feel kind of.

don't you want to take a shower after. you being so cheerful and chatty and all. that. You know? Yeah, I understand that. But if if that's the profession you. chose and you love it, then maybe you. don't feel that way. I couldn't do it. personally. But, you know, I think. I think it's okay. to think of yourself as an actor. I. don't think there's anything wrong about. that. Um. the second very curious law in your book. that I uncovered was a was law number. two. I'm talking about the 48 Laws of Power.

here where it says, "Never trust friends. too much. Learn how to use enemies.". Yeah. Do you trust your friends? Okay, well, this everything in the book. is context. So, when you take things out. of context, it's a little harder to. understand. And what I'm trying to say. in that. I'm talking about in the work world, when you're out in the social realm. And. one of the worst things that people do. is. you have a job and I've been guilty of. it myself even after I wrote the damn. book.

You're out in the work world and you. need to hire somebody. You need to find a colleague. You need. to find some a partner or an employee. Your mind naturally gravitates towards a. friend, right? Because they know you, you trust. them, you have a relationship, you know, and you feel comfortable with. them. And it's a terrible mistake. So many of the worst things have. happened in history are because of that. very problem. Because. friends is there's all these emotions.

involved between people, right? And. those emotions confuse the issue. So, what I'm talking about in that law is. when you need to get results, you need. to think when you have a job or. something, you have to think in. practical terms, not in terms of. emotions, not in terms of friendship, etc., etc. So, you want to keep your work world. separate. It's not everything about life is having. to be friends and having nice things and. everybody like you. Sometimes what matters is getting.

results done. And sometimes the best. person to work with isn't your friend. because they don't have all this other. stuff that we're talking about. In fact, a very powerful move is if there's an. enemy out there, somebody who you never got along with, if you say if you approach them and say, "Let's bury the hatchet, you know, I have a job and I'd really like you to. work with me. I know you're really. smart.". That person the the the turnaround of.

emotions is a very powerful thing where. they're going, "Wow. Yeah, sure. That's That's grand. Never. expected that." And they're all They're. highly motivated to now prove that. they're worthy of of your of your change. of mind. So, it's not about not trusting your friends. in the realm of friendship and personal. relationships. It's about being aware. that the work world is different from. the realm of personal relationships. The. other point I I found really curious was.

was. point three about concealing your. intentions. And. Yeah. I I find this curious because I've. never really known where to land on this. when people ask me for advice on the. subject matter about how much of your. hand should you show? Whether it's in. business or life or whatever. There's a. There's a group of people that think you. should always just keep everything. you're doing and your intentions totally. secret because then people might copy. you or they'll attack you whatever. And. then there's another school of thought. that says when you're building. something, when you're doing something, when you have a mission, you need to. share it with as many people as possible.

because that will galvanize people to to. come along with the journey with you and. they'll want to support you and help. you. So when I read um point number three. about concealing your intentions, I wanted to to ask you about what what. you think about that. Which side do you. land on? Well, everything depends on. circumstances. So the laws are never. meant to apply to every situation, right? So when it's with your own team. and you're trying to inspire them and. you're trying to give them a vision, you're trying to get them on your side,

yeah, you share your vision with them. You share this is where the group is. going. This is where I want things to be. in three years. Let's all get together. We're trying to do something very. positive for the world. Okay, here we. Here's my plan. Right? But then there. are circumstances. where revealing everything that what you. about what you're planning to do is. actually very counterproductive. Right? So the business world. in the 21st century is extremely. competitive. It's getting worse and. worse by the day. As more and more.

people now are entering the power arena. and I think it's a great thing. Where it. used to be just a realm where only older. white men had power and now it's the. doors have opened to everyone. The com-. level of competition is that much more. intense. Particularly now even with the. internet. You have rivals out there. You. You competitors out there. Even as we. talk right now. Maybe you're not. thinking about them, but they are. They're They're looking to steal your. ideas. They're looking to take your. business away from you, etc. etc. Just.

be aware of that phenomenon, and just. always saying what you're planning on. doing isn't always the wisest thing to. do. Sometimes, if you're in a tricky. situation, making putting people off the scent, giving them a red herring, and saying, "I'm planning to do this." When in fact. you're planning to do that. It's a very. powerful technique. It's deception. But, all's fair in love and war and business, I'm I'm afraid. So, you know, there are moments where you don't want.

to lay all your cards out on the table, right? You want to either create a. little bit of mystery, so that people. don't know what you're going to do next, and they're wondering what you're going. to do next. And as they're wondering what you're. going to do next, they're kind of. on their heels a little bit. What's the. next thing that. that Steven is planning? I don't really. know. Wow. You know, it makes it it's a very. powerful approach. There are other times. and other experiences and moments in. life where you do want to reveal what.

you're planning to do, because there's a. purpose behind it. I'm just saying, be aware. Don't just act in this world. Be aware. Have a strategic mindset. Sometimes, concealing is what you need. to do. Sometimes, not concealing is what. you need to do. It's funny, when we have. this conversation about power and the. darkness and the shadows that people. have in them, I think a lot of people. listening, and probably it seems that way because. I'm the one asking the questions, is if. I'm questioning society that I'm not.

part of. Um they'll think they don't They might. think they don't play these games, right? They might, you know, So, that's. the question I have is like, have you. ever encountered anybody? Do you believe. there's anybody out there that doesn't. play power games, manipulation, have. shadows, have darkness in them? No, I. don't. But, um so, in my war book, uh, I I read the biography of Mahatma. Gandhi, one of the saintliest figures in. history, right? And I realized. that Mahatma Gandhi was actually a.

brilliant strategist. Now, I'm not. saying his use of non-violence and civil. disobedience. didn't come from the heart. He didn't. mean it. He wasn't actually He didn't. actually believe in the peaceful method. He did. He was very sincere. But, he was. very strategic about it. And he planned. a campaign, several campaigns, like the. Salt March in the '20s, where he knew, for instance, that the English public. was very liberal-minded. They had this. ideal of themselves as being this very.

They weren't colonialists. They weren't. imperialists. They were doing the best. for the world. And he deliberately had these marches, where he knew that that they're on They. would be reading in their newspaper and. seeing photographs. of Indian people being beaten up by. Englishmen. and and their Indian officers on the. streets of wherever. It would have a terrible impact on the. public. He thought in terms of strategy.

Okay, so, there's Gandhi. Then, there's. Martin Luther King, who's somebody I. wrote about a lot in The Laws of Human. Nature. Another great icon whom I. admire, who actually was inspired by. Gandhi and had campaigns of civil. disobedience. And there was a campaign, I believe it. was in Montgomery or Selma, I can't. remember which one, where, um, he was getting fed up. They. weren't getting very far. The Civil. Rights Movement, they're reaching a. stalemate, and he was getting very. frustrated. And, um, somebody an advisor came to him.

said, "Look, we're going to have this massive march, and and I I can get a lot of. elementary school and junior high school. students to be on this march, because. they believe in you, and they're very. fervent. And I think it'd be great. And his. advisers go, "God, you can't do that. You can't have put 13-year-olds at. risk." And Martin Luther King thought. about it for a minute, and he said, "No, we're going to go ahead and do it.". Because, damn it, I want the American. public sitting in there all fat and.

watching their televisions to see these. brutal, you know, Bull Connor, the the. police chief then. I want to see these children being water. hosed and beaten, and it's going to have. an incredible impact. He was being. strategic, and his advisers were shocked. by it. But, it ended up proving to be. one of the most pivotal important. moments in the civil rights movement. So, here you have Gandhi and Martin. Luther King. I'm never And Martin Luther. King was a flawed individual, as we. know, right? He had a private life that.

wasn't exactly in the the same as his. public life. I don't judge him for that, because he. was a brilliant man, and I admire him. I. love him deeply. Reading his biography. made me even admire him even more, seeing that he had a human flawed side. to him. But, these are icons that we set up, and. they reveal what I'm talking about in. human nature. You can't escape it. Yeah, maybe there was some saint born in. some century that I've never heard of. that maybe. got pretty far away from everything I've.

talked about. But, you know, you know, we all have this. idea like. in Laws of Human Nature, I write about. irrationality, envy, aggression. We go, "Oh, or narcissism." Narcissism is a. good one. Oh, they're a narcissist. I'm not a narcissist. I'm not. self-absorbed, but they are. Yeah, yeah. I don't have any of those traits. Well, damn it, every single human being has. self-absorption traits. We can't help. it. We naturally think of ourselves.

first. Yes, there are people who are. much deeper narcissists in life, no. doubt, and there are toxic narcissists, but we all have a touch of it. I want you to be a little more humble in. this world and not be so arrogant and. not think that you are somehow exempt. from having a dark side, that somehow. you were born with a halo over your. head, that you were born different, you. don't have human nature, that you're a. saintly person, you're much better. Get. rid of your moral superiority cuz I find.

that deeply offensive. We are all cut. from the same cloth. We all have the. same flaws. And when you look at. yourself, and when I wrote the laws of. human nature, I'm going, "Damn it, Robert. You You have a dark side. You're a. narcissist." You know, I had to come to. terms with my irrationality, my. grandiosity, my aggressive instincts. But it's the only way to change yourself. is to be aware that you have these. issues. I have the narcissistic tendency. Now I.

see it. All right. Now when they pop up. pop up, I can control it better. I can. say, "Damn Robert, you're being too. self-absorbed. You think more about the. other person." But if you go around in. life thinking, "I don't have any of. these problems. I'm not a narcissist.". You're never going to have the awareness. to stop the fact that you are actually. one. Being a narcissist is not objectively a. good or a bad thing. Because when you. when you was obviously I know people are. having a It's a bad thing. It's a. narcissist cause a lot of harm and. that's very true. But in the context of.

the human animal and why the human. animal develops certain attributes and. qualities to have to you know, maybe. further its survival or its ability to. stay within the social pact. Is it just a consequence of being a. human to have these like shadow traits. and to be coercive and manip-. manipulative? Is it good or is it bad? Or is it neither? It's neither. Neither. Um. because it just is. Right? Um so. with narcissism for instance,

um. there's a reason why we're narcissists. So, I explain in the book, it's not my. own theory, it comes from some great. psychologist like Kohut, the origins of. narcissism, right? So, when you're. have to leave you when your parents have. to kind of not abandon you, but have to. not give you as much attention as you. used to have, and you're 3 years old or. 4 years old, you don't remember it, but it was very. painful. Like, "Oh, they don't love me as much.

What's wrong with me, right?" You know, I have to get that love and attention. not just naturally, I have to do things. to earn it, etc. etc. And what happens with a lot of people in. that situation when you're a child is, I have to develop my own I have to be my. own mother or father. I have to find a. way of loving myself. When something bad happens, I have to. retreat inward and go, "I'm really not. so bad at all. I'm actually a decent.

person. I like my own tastes. I like the. clothes that I wear, etc. etc." You're. developing the shreds of self-esteem, right? And people who never develop that. because they were abused or they were. abandoned or even if they were. suffocated, never develop that self-esteem. And so, what happens in life is whenever. if you don't develop that and you get. older. and people attack you and yell at you or.

criticize you, you can't retreat inward. to that self-esteem, that love you have. The only thing you know is to get angry, to get the call it narcissistic rage, and to yell at people and say, "God, get. away from me. You're you're evil, etc. etc. etc." Right? And then the other. problems evolve where the only way I. don't have that inner self-esteem, the. only way I can get people to love me is. by being incredibly dramatic and overly. dramatic, etc. etc. etc. and always. making myself the center of attention.

That's what creates a deep narcissist. That's their only way of getting the. love that they need. So, children, we. all need that degree of self-esteem, that anchor in our life. So, narcissism, self-love, is not a bad thing. But, what happens is as you get older, if you go too deep into it, it becomes a problem. And so, what I say is you need to take. that self-love. and. it has a good function and turn it.

outward as. much as you can and turn it into empathy. and love and consideration for other. people. More That's your task as you get. older in life. That's how I approach all. of these flaws. You can't run away from them. You can't. run away from your shadow, your dark. side. You can make it work for you. You. can make it positive and productive and. healthy. You can become a healthy. narcissist, which is a. a. a name that I use in the book. You can use your dark side for positive. purposes.

Let's say you have a lot of anger in. your in inside and I had a lot of anger. when I was younger. I was a very angry. young man. Right? Channel that into some kind of cause. Like and you know that I have a lot of. causes that I believe in very deeply. And when I was younger, I was like that. Channel that energy into something. productive and helpful and put it into. something that goes to something that. helps society. That's using your dark. side for positive purposes because the.

dark side of human nature has a lot of. creativity, has a lot of energy. An artist has to have a dark side. You. use your dark side because all those. dark emotions, all the people that shat. on you in your life, they inspire you. They create your best. work. Don't run away from your shadow. Don't run away away your narcissism. Use. it in a in a healthy way. And acknowledge it. I think that's the. hardest thing for people to do, right? Yeah. So so few people, I think, including.

myself, like have really fully. understood what their their shadow and. their dark side is. I mean, doing this. podcast has really helped me because I. learn things from other people. vicariously and then I look at reflect. on myself. Or keeping a diary has helped. me to understand that. But that first. step in someone having the. self-awareness to understand their dark. side. I mean, there's even a lot of. people who. confronting their dark side would be so. It feels like it would be so impactful. on their self-esteem in a negative sense. that they spend their life. putting up a wall to never go there. I. mean, there's some people who you even.

mention something. to them and they would trigger triggers. them. Yeah. You know, we can all think of those. people. Um. We can all think of those people. The. The really interesting thing there is. the role that your earliest play on your. relationship with power. Because when I think about some of the. nicest I don't know if this is just a. general. stereotype or a narrow observation I've. had, but some of the nicest people I've. met in terms of you know, being the. opposite of whatever a toxic narcissist.

is, seem to have really. comfortable, loving, secure, safe. early experiences. And then is that is that broadly true in. your view? It's a generalization, but there is is. some truth to it. I mean, there's things that called attachment. theories where. uh psychologists have looked at the kind. of attachment you had to your parents. and they categorize it in four different. ways and there's the ideal, the best one.

where you have this. incredibly loving mother and father and. they they're they're giving you. unconditional love, but they know also. how to give you your independence, etc. It's not terribly common. I don't know. what the percentage would be. Then. there's the levels and levels and then. and then you get to the fourth level. that's like the abandonment one. Where or abusive and abandonment where. you basically leave the child alone. You. don't give it any attention, any love. and it's very crippling. Right?

But the thing is children are much. stronger than we think they are. They're very resilient. They're very. resourceful. They're going to find their love. They're going to find a way to. compensate for it in some way. And with something very interesting when. I was doing seduction and some of my. other books. and I look at people who were like very. charismatic. Like a Malcolm X, like a Marilyn Monroe. I could go on and on and on. These are.

people that came from very very bad. families, right? They had no love. Marilyn Monroe was an. was an orphan essentially, raised in an. orphanage, you know? Her whole life was I got to get people. to love me. I need love so desperately. And her way of doing it. was to literally make love with the. camera. Nobody ever done that before. You could sense that she needed it and. it was so powerful that you sensed it. that she drew it to herself.

Great charismatic individuals. John F. Kennedy is someone who had a lot of. charisma. He came from a very bad. childhood, right? His father was very. mean to him, etc. Some children in the. worst circumstances it ends up bringing. the best out of them. They have to find. their way in life and some people who. have everything. don't go very far because they don't. know how to find things for themselves. So life is weird. Some people who have. great childhoods do well. Some people.

who have great childhoods are spoiled. and never learn how to get things on. their own. And some people who have the. shittiest childhoods learn how to be. resourceful and and and and and get what. they need on their own. You mentioned seduction there, the art. of seduction. Why did you write a book. about the topic of seduction? Seduction is an high form of power. because you make people feel pleasure. You make them feel excited or interested.

in you, and then their their resistance. to your ideas slowly lowers and you have. the ability to influence them and to. move them in the direction that you. want. If you yell at them, like how we. talked about your child and you tell. them, "Do this, do that." They they. resent it and for good reason. But if you are subtler, if you're more. seductive in your approach, if you're. more indirect, people will do what you want or or go in. your direction without ever even. realizing it. So, it was a subtheme in.

The 48 Laws of Power. And so, I was sort of interested in the. psychology of that and why some people. are good at it and some people are. awkward about it. So, when I finished. The 48 Laws of Power, I thought this. would be. a natural segue to the next book. What. are the. qualities of a great seducer? Well, I like to distinguish between cold. seducers and warm seducers. A cold. seducer is something you don't want to. be. That's the typical image that we might.

have. of a male seducer, but even of a female. seducer like the great courtesans, etc., where they're just after money or the. men are just after sex. That's not my ideal. My ideal. is kind of. a back and forth quality where it's not. domination. It's sort of like a game. that you're playing. It's like a mating. game. It's like a courtship ritual where. both part people are kind of seducing. each other. And so, what makes for a. great seducer is very simple. I can.

summarize it very simply. You are outer directed. So, when you meet somebody. for the first time or you're on a date. or whatever it is, you're not having that internal. monologue going, "Does she like me or. does he like me? Am I dressed well? Am I. saying stupid things? What can I do to. impress them?" No, you turn it off and you're. outer-directed and you're listening to. them and you're entering their spirit. and you're hearing them say things that.

that give you idea of what they're. missing in life, of what they want, of. what their needs are, of what makes them. an individual. You're absorbing it, you're entering. into their spirit, and then you can. reflect it back to them. You can give. them gifts, you can take them to places. that show that you're attentive to them. Because if you look at how we are in our. day-to-day life, normally people never pay us attention. They're always so self-absorbed, they're. never thinking about us. They're The I.

mean, the times where you get the sense. that people are actually interested in. who you are an individual is pretty. rare. If you give that feeling to someone, it's incredibly powerful because we all. want to be validated, we all want to be. recognized. So, what the seducer. is not someone who's all worried about. him- him or herself and thinking they're. involved in the other person, they're. absorbed like a sponge inside their. psychology, inside their world.

A lot of this is, you know, very. applicable to romance and dating, etc., etc. It feels, for whatever reason, I. don't, you know, not necessarily. something I've read much about in your. work, but it feels like dating and. romance and relationships have become. much more complicated in the modern. world. That it's be- it's become much. more difficult to seduce. somebody. Um what is the What are the. attributes of someone then that is not. good at seducing? Anti-seducer.

has many qualities. I have a whole. chapter on the anti-seduce. I try and. define it. Uh there there's several of them. I. can't I don't have them all memorized, but one quality that's very. anti-seductive is preaching and. moralizing. Is like telling people. "Oh, that's wrong what you just said.". or "Your politics are ugly." or "You're. not a really You're not really good at. this." or something or other. Having a moral superiority, a sense of. sanctimonious sanctimony. in a realm which should be about.

pleasure, which should be that kind of. equality, that kind of back and forth. dynamic, where you're asserting your. moral superiority is deeply, deeply. anti-seductive. The element of preaching. to people. Not being generous. And I mean not just with money. Money is. important. But not just being generous with your. spirit. Right? You want to be open. You want to give as. much as you can to the other person of. yourself, of your time, of your money,

of your energy, etc. So, being all kind. of crimped and I don't want to give. I. don't want to spend money. I want to. take you to the cheap place to eat. I. don't want to give you much time. Is. very, very anti-seductive. When you were talking a second ago about. the person who goes on the date and. they're thinking about themselves and. what they, you know, what their hair. looks like or whatever else. That spoke to. an insecure person. Is insecurity a seductive quality or is.

it a. anti-seductive quality? It is. anti-seductive. Now, there is a part of. weakness that is seductive. So, I would say vulnerability is. seductive, but insecurity is. anti-seductive. And there's a big. difference. Why does vulnerability draw. people to you? Because. the sense So, if I can define seduction. in in in in simple terms, Um most of the time we are closed to the.

influence of other people, particularly. now. We have these walls up because life. is harsh, people are coming at us with. their advertisements, with their pleas, with their wanting money, with this and. the other, and we've all learned to be. very defensive, right? And seduction is. an openness, is the opposite of that. And you felt it when you were a child. towards your parents, you felt very. vulnerable and open. And And there was. an element of your parents and how they. treated you that was very much like a.

seduction, right? So, seduction is about. being open to the other person to the. extent where you can even fall in love, you can fall under their spell. And the. sense of letting go of your ego, letting. go of your defensiveness, and letting. other another person enter your world is. being seduced. It requires. vulnerability. If you meet the typical. um scenarios of a man. who's not vulnerable at all, he's so. powerful and in control and everything,

has no vulnerabilities, it's. frightening, you know, for a woman. It could be very. frightening. Like this he's he's so. strong, he's so invulnerable that. there's something wrong about it. You. know, maybe he's a serial killer, maybe. he's got skeletons in his closet. Something isn't right about that. What What seduces you about a puppy, about a child, about an animal is their. vulnerability. It makes you want to hug them, it makes. you want to help them,

right? The sense which if you came upon. a. a tiger that's there and then that they. don't need that, well, that's not. seductive. I mean, on your screen it is, but if they're there in your living. room, that's not seductive. But that. puppy is, right? Vulnerability, the. sense that somebody needs protection or. help brings out qualities in us that we. don't normally have that I think. allow for seduction. So, that is being. vulnerable. That is. I can be influenced by that other.

person. I am open to the to their. spirit, right? That's being vulnerable. The word vulnerable, I hate to sound. like a professor here, so excuse me, in. seduction comes from the the the root of. it means a wound. Volnus. So, you have a. wound inside of you and you need. healing. And the other person naturally. wants to help you, right? But being. insecure is the op means. I'm so self-absorbed, I'm so worried.

about myself. that I can't get out of it. And we've all had that experience. When. you meet somebody and they and you can. sense you can smell their insecurity in. them. I'm not judging them cuz we all. have insecurities. It makes you feel insecure. It makes you feel a little bit awkward. Whereas if you meet someone who's not. like that, who's confident, etc., it. brings out that quality in you. So, if. you're on a date and there's someone. who's. you smell that kind of insecurity, it. makes you awkward and insecure. It.

creates a kind of a problem. So, that. would be the difference between the two. There's going to be a lot of people. listening to this that are single. and ready to mingle. Um. what advice would you give them in terms. of. being great at dating? You've talked. about the importance of vulnerability. there and how that kind of forms. connection between humans in a very. innate way. What else is great dating. advice for the for the single people out. there? Well, the thing is, okay, there's several.

things. So, first of all, we live in a a. culture where people think you don't you. shouldn't have to put effort into. something like love and romance. You. should just be who you are, man. I don't. have to put on a role. I don't have to. play a game. That's manipulative, blah. blah blah. No, I'm sorry. Love and romance is something that is. almost biological. If you look at animals and mating. rituals, they're incredibly elaborate. Seduction is a mating ritual. And so,

the worst thing you can feel is that. this person isn't putting any effort. into something. Let's just say it's it's. it's from the woman's point of view. This man, he just shows up wearing jeans in his. usual sloppy outfit. He doesn't comb his. hair, etc. etc. etc. He takes me to the pub for dinner on our. first date. You know, he he he's not thinking about. me. He's not willing to put any effort. into it. If he's not willing to put any.

effort into it, what's it going to be like 3 months down. the line when he completely takes me for. granted, which is what happens in a. relationship? Am I not important enough? Right? Whereas, the ability to have a. little bit of effort to think of it as. kind of theater and drama and that. there's nothing evil about it. So, I'm going to dress nicely. I'm going to. it doesn't have to be fancy. Just that. I'm going to, you know, I'm going to put. some effort into how I look.

I'm going to take her to a place that. isn't is, you know, I'm not talking. about candle lights and roses and that. kind of crap. It doesn't have You can be creative. It. can be somewhere that that's scuzzy, that's on the wrong side of town, but. it's different and it's appealing to and. you put some thought into it. There's a. reason you're taking her there, right? I have a friend who went on a date and. she came back from the date and was. complaining because the person that she. date went on that first date with.

was using a took her to a spot where he. had an available valid discount code for. like two to one. And and. Talk about anti-seduction. There you go. Why is that anti-seductive? In that. case, one might say that male is being, you know, economically savvy, financially savvy. They You know, if you're not able to let. go of your of your kind of tightness. when it comes to a woman, something's.

wrong with you, man. Just let go. Spend. some extra money. Spend the extra 10. quid that you might need to spend on. taking you to someplace different. But, it signals a kind of cheapness, and it's. not about money. It's about a cheapness. in your spirit. Right? She's not worth, you know, letting go. Okay, maybe you don't have that much, but my. god, you have enough. It's not going to. like make If you're that poor, then. then, you know, okay, maybe. But, probably not. You can afford it. Show.

that you that that it it means something. to you. Let Seduction is a language. It's not a. language of words. It's a language of. gestures that we're paying attention to. We're paying attention to people's body. language. We're. paying attention to their actions, to. the things that they never say. So, when you signal. that. discounts are so important to you that. even on the first date you have to have. a discount, you're signaling that it's not There's.

something tight about you in your. nature, and it's not very pleasant. I. From doing this podcast and speaking. about topics like love and sex and. dating and, you know, dating apps even, one of the um. comments I saw quite frequently was from. young men who are struggling to seduce a. woman. Yeah. Or or vice versa. Um. Specifically young men that, you know, and then I read some stats. I think. Scott Galloway came on the podcast and. talked about how.

I'm going to butcher these numbers, but. a staggering amount amount of men. haven't had sex in the young men haven't. had sex in the last 12 months. Um and. then I when I looked at the comment. section specifically on YouTube, I saw I. kind of saw that energy reflected where. it looked like young men in particular. were struggling to. seduce um a mate, a partner in the. modern world. Is Do Do Is that real in your view? Is. there Is there something that has. changed in society? Has that always been.

the case? Um is there anything we can do if we're. we're a young man that's struggling in. the modern world because of the internet. and computers and this and dating apps. and. Well, a lot of it is, I'm afraid to say, is internet porn. Where you get the idea that, you know, sex is something that should be very. easy and quick and that women should. have Look have that kind of. body and physique, etc., etc. And that. becomes your norm. So, that can be that. can be very damaging.

But the idea that things must come easy. and quick is is very prevalent. And to win over someone like a Let's say. you're a man and it's a woman who might. be reluctant to have sex for good reason. or reluctant to have a relationship. requires some effort. It requires some. thinking. You can't just hack your You. can't just swipe and get it. You can You. can have your internet sex, but you're. not going to get that in real life. It. doesn't work that way. It takes time. It.

takes patience. You know, and you're. going to have to work at and you're. going to be rejected. Being with people is a skill. Being a. social animal. although there's a part that comes. naturally, if you spend all of your time. here, you're losing that skill of how to. respond to people's body language. You. know, half of the thing is you're. sitting in a bar opposite Let's say it's. a woman. And how she crosses her legs, how she. sips her drink, how she looks at you,

how she touches her hair. She's. signaling things. It's a language, it's. a beautiful language. Right? You have to learn it, and you're not. going to learn it here because you. can't. You have to be in person, it has. to be skin to skin. You have to get a. feel for what other people are thinking. and feeling. And we're actually really, really good at that. Humans have That's. what makes us human. It's called mirror. neurons. I can sense what's going on in. your mind. I can read your body. language.

You have to get out in the world, and. you have to be put yourself physically. out there and try and try and try and. have rejection. And I know it sounds awful, but it is a. skill in a way where you're learning how. to like understand and deal with people. and and and and understand that what. they're who they are and get inside. their spirit. It takes time and effort. and patience. So, for young men, you have to realize that, right? You If. you If you think everything has to be.

easy and quick, it's never going to work. for you. In the In the I talk about the actor, the Hollywood actor Errol Flynn, who was perhaps. numerically the greatest sedu- male. seducer ever because it's estimated that. he had seduced close to 3,000 women, and. he died when he was 50. And if I I did the math one day, I go, "What the How can that possibly be?". Um. and I I tried to research what was his. secret, and it was hard to find out.

Finally, I found a book written by a. woman whom he had seduced, another. actress, and she said, "He was so relaxed and so comfortable. It was like being It was like an animal. type thing, and then when I would sit. with him, it was almost as if I had. drunk two martinis just sitting next to. him. His comfort and his security and. his confidence, his relaxed attitude, it. just made me drunk.". So, feeling relaxed, feeling confident, and. not defensive, and comfortable with.

yourself. is a very powerful seductive quality. I. mean, there are many of them, but that's. one that I would point out. Have you. ever figured out what builds confidence? You Earlier on you were talking about. how children need to experience things. firsthand. You can't just tell them. You. can't just tell someone, for example, to. be confident. Preaching doesn't seem to. work. What what is it in your view that. that does build that true or You also. can't fake confidence. No. I remember I. take We talked about rejection a second.

ago. I was rejected by pretty much every. girl that I was pursuing between the. ages of of. 16 and I'd say 22. Really? Yeah. Like. And I Do you know what it was? I I was. faking confidence. It all changed when I. was actually had a sense of security in. myself. All right. But in the period. where I was like faking confidence, I. was pretending I was confident. Um. it was like they could they just could. read past it. That's almost how I look. back on the situation. So, I came to.

learn that you can't fake confidence. You can't pretend to be it because. there's so many sort of micro. expressions that Yeah. that you that. look that end up reading more like. insecurity than confidence. Um. But what is real confidence and how does. one build it in your view? Well, you've. kind of answered your own question there. in a way. So, um. you know, can't fake confidence is like. bravado, right? And you're you're. putting on an act. And particularly women who've had to. deal with this for, you know, millennia,

they can smell it. They can sense it. They don't have to It doesn't have to. It's not in your words. It's the body. language, etc., etc. Real confidence comes from actual, um. actions, from your actual things you've. accomplished, right? So, you know, when you're 22, 21, it's hard. to have that confidence because what is. it based on? You know, maybe it's based. Okay, maybe you're you're really. good-looking if you happen to have that. good fortune and you can feel confident. about that and you don't have to try so.

hard. All right, maybe that might work. Or maybe you're really good at sports or. maybe you're a really good dancer or. you're a really great singer, but it's. based on something real. You have a. skill. You have something that separates. you. You have something that you can do. that you can accomplish. Because when you're 21, it's hard to. have those. You know, I look back on. myself when I was that age. I had. nothing. No wonder I got rejected, you. know? Um. So, it comes from what you do in life.

Okay? The The finest sense of confidence. is actually creating things and having. success and meeting goals and achieving. things and having a a record of that. You know, and maybe what goes with that. is having a some money, but it's not. necessarily because you don't have to. have a lot of money and you don't have. to be good-looking to seduce. That's a. myth that I try to explode in The Art of. Seduction. Some of the greatest. seducers, male and female, were not.

good-looking at all. It's about. psychology and it's about how you carry. yourself. But the confidence comes from. actually what you can do, not how you feel or what you say. Well, it is how you feel, but the feeling is. based on things that you actually can. do, skills that you have that separate. you, that make you feel. really confident, you know? So. Body language. Yeah, I I find it fascinating that, you. know, there's quotes and things that say.

80% of our communication is nonverbal, etc., etc. And body language is so. interesting to me because again, I think. that's one of the things that it's just. impossibly hard to fake. I was reading, you know, a couple of books on There was. a phase when I was, I don't know, 20, probably just after being rejected all. the time, when I was maybe 22, where I. started reading books from pickup. artists. And they would obsess. on the topic of body language. And one. of the things they'd say is. and I try I was explaining this to my. girlfriend a couple of weeks ago. that when when a man is lower.

confidence, when he's desperate, he does. this thing called pecking in a. nightclub, where he'll like lean in and. like shout in your ear. And when he's. higher confidence, he kind of leans out. and he'll he'll wait for you to lean in. Small things like that, subtleties like. that, that intuitively we we're reading. and understanding and communicating and. etc. But someone that doesn't have the. confidence probably isn't even aware. that they do. So when I reflect on my. rejection phase, I think, "Gosh, my body. language must have been exuding. desperation and low status and low.

value, low self-esteem.". What's your thoughts on body language. and. Well, in my last book Human Magnet I. wrote a whole chapter on it. I you quoted the figure 95%, but who. knows what it really is. The thing it is that we evolved for. hundreds of thousands of years before. language existed, right? And our. earliest ancestors depended on the group. for their survival and getting along. And their powers came from observing.

other people and their body language. You could read it. So it's a skill. that's wired into us, wired into our. brains. It's a very unique skill that we. humans have. It's just that you don't. learn that. When you're a child, when. you're 2 years old, you have it cuz your. life depends on it. You have to see what if your mother is. is loving you or is your father is kind. to you. Because if not, you know, you. could be abandoned. Your life depends on. it. You're great at reading that. And. children have are incredibly adept at.

picking up body language. So if someone. is fake. if someone's an impostor they hate being. around children because children see. through you, you know, like you know, like radar, right? Because they're so. attuned to it. You had that skill when. you were very young, but you lost it. because you became so oriented with. words and you became so self-absorbed. that you're not paying attention. But it's extremely important, right? So, the whole body is involved in it. So,

you've got to first stop thinking about. people's words so much because the one. thing about words, unfortunately, is. people can lie. They can say whatever. they want. They can say, "I love your. screenplay. That was fantastic. You were. great in that movie. I thought you were. great." etc. They can say anything to. please, to flatter, to cajole you. But. body language, man, it doesn't lie, right? So, I talk in that book about the. eyes and the fake smile. The fake smile.

is something you see every single day, but you're not paying attention. It's. like. It's kind of tight, right? It's like. right? But a real smile, your the whole face gets animated and. there's a little crinkly thing here as. your face as you as it lights up and. your eyes light up. It's It's hard to. even put into words, but it's there. You. can see it. It's real. It's not faked. Knowing the difference between a fake. and a real smile is really important in.

seduction, in business, or whatever. To. know if someone is like, "Yeah, I like that idea." You know they don't. really. They're saying that to please. you. They actually hate your idea. You. master that language, you can start. deciphering all this people are. giving you. The face, you can disguise it a little. bit. Actors know that. But you know what. you can't fake? It's your voice. If you're nervous, not even the finest actors in the world. can fake that. Your voice betrays so.

many things about you. It betrays your. weakness. It betrays your lack of. confidence Or it betrays the other. quality, etc. Right? So, pay really. attention to the tone of people's. voices, to how fast they talk. People. who talk fast are very nervous. Someone who's talk I know I'm probably. talking a little too fast here. Sorry. Um my mind races, so I can do that. Normally, I don't talk so fast. But um. you know, you you talk slowly, you have.

a certain tone, you have a certain. intonation that kind of reveals. confidence. Okay? Body language, posture. You were talking. about pecking, right? When you go and. look at a meeting of people in in a. business meeting, you'll see all the employees kind of. leaning forward, nervous, and you'll see. the boss kind of leaning back, arms. crossed like this, you know? I'm the. powerful one. You come to me. I'm the. leader. I'm the I'm the top dog or she,

it's a woman. I don't need to be like this. I'm like. this. Body language reveals a lot about. leadership qualities, etc. etc. etc. You know, if you go. you're at a party. and you come up to someone that you're. meeting for the first time, and they're. talking to you, and you notice that. their feet are angling away from you, that means that they're not really. interested they're looking for any. moment to try and walk away and escape. They're not really into you. Whereas.

their feet are facing you, they're. engaged, they want to talk to you, right? This is a whole art you can learn, and. you can sit there and you can read it, and I talk about I give the story in. Laws of Human Nature of a man named. Milton Erickson, the founder of NLP and. hypnotherapy, probably one of the most. brilliant psychologists who ever lived. When Milton Erickson was 19 years old or. so, he had polio. He nearly died. His entire body was. paralyzed. The only thing he could move,

the only muscle he can move are his. eyeballs. Now, imagine that. He was a. young man with a very active mind. He. can't talk. He can't do anything. All he. can do is move his eyeballs a little. bit. He was so bored. Can you imagine how. bored you'd be like that? You can't. read. You can't do anything. People would come in to visit him. All they could do was look at them and. study them. He became the greatest reader. of body language ever in the history of. mankind. People said it was he was. almost had ESP. He could read everything.

about who they were just by look cuz he. ended up recovering. He became a. psychologist. Because his life depended on developing. this skill. He was going to just die. from sheer boredom if he didn't learn. how to read body language. He mastered. that language much like somebody could. master French. And it's an incredibly. powerful language that I I I can't. emphasize enough. You know, we can go about learning the. language of body language and I'm sure. that will help, but.

it's such a complex. um. like va There's like a a thousand things. with my body language at all times. Like. how I'm speaking, my eyeballs, my where. I'm looking, my posture, my arms. Like. am I crossing my arms? Am I crossing my. legs? All of these things. So, the the. challenge of mastering all of that feels. a little bit overwhelming. Um am I right. in assuming the easiest. the easier challenge to master is in. fact just like my sense of self? Very well put. Because uh you know, If.

you feel confident, if you feel secure, if you're not. all inward and insecure and worried. about yourself, it will naturally. radiate through your gestures. Yeah? You. don't have to sit there and pay. attention to your fingers, your arm, your ears, your eyes. It's just there. It's natural. So, yeah, that is the. solution. So, the two game parts of the. game, it's your own body language. Be. aware that people are judging you for. that, right? And you can't, as you say, be monitoring everything or you'll drive.

yourself crazy and you'll look very. weird. Right? So, the best solution is to feel. these certain things that are going to. radiate and to not give the fake smile, but when you're really. happy to just show it and and show your. emotion that way. And the other side, which is more is I think. really important, is learning other. people's body language and that can come. from study and is much more a logical. thing than a than constantly thinking. about everything that you do.

Your next book. that I have here, Mastery. Why did you write a book called Mastery? Well, to be honest with you, it came uh. the idea for it was in around the year. 2010, 2009. I was getting a little. worried that people who were reading my. books, particularly young men, reading Power and Seduction, they they. were thinking. that's all I need in life, man. I just. need to be a manipulator. I just need to. play political games. That's what. success is all about.

And I was worried that, you know, if if you don't understand how to make. something, what's going to be the future. of mankind? Are bridges just going to. fall down? Are hotels going to collapse? People don't know how to make things. anymore. We don't know how to use our. hands anymore, right? So, being able to be good with people is. extremely important as a social animal, but perhaps higher up in the hierarchy. is being able to do things, to be able. to have great skill and to be able to. create something and know how to master.

a subject and to, you know, build. something that can last. That's really. important and I'm feeling like because. young people, this is back in 2010, imagine now, had this idea that everything comes. quick and easy because you can click, click, click and things come to you. That everything in life should be that. way. That we're we're becoming alienated. from the human brain, how the human. brain operates. Because the human brain. requires time. If you know how the human.

brain operates, we have what are called. neural pathways. And every time you. repeat something, a neural pathway is. created and strengthened and. strengthened and strengthened. It's why. we get addicted to things, but it's also. why we develop skill. So, if I'm sitting. there shooting free throws day in and. day out, yeah, my brain is wiring it. It's learning it. It's learning that. motor skill, that hand mind thing, and. it's getting better and better and. better at it. It takes time. It takes. repetition to build those pathways. And.

I explain in Mastery. that you reach the proverbial 10,000. hours, which some people dispute. nowadays. So, it's just a number. It's. not It's not a fact. You have. spent so long learning something. that there's so many pathways, it's like. this amazing. uh inner landscape with all these. connections going on in your brain. And. now you can be creative. Now you can. come up with things that nobody's ever. thought of. You can play chess on a.

higher level. You can be Pelé on soccer. or Lionel Messi making passes that no. one had ever seen before because you're. not having to think. Right? You don't. have to think anymore. Your body just. does does what it wants. Imagine 20,000 hours, which is possible. just people sometimes attain in certain. fields. You're almost like a genius. You're. almost like superhuman, right? If you're someone who's so locked into. the internet and to getting things. instantly, you can't get past 100 hours, let alone 10,000. You're never going to.

develop skill, and you're going to find. life really, really difficult for you. So, I wrote the book because I was. actually deeply worried that we were. losing a part of of how the human brain. operates, something elemental part of. our wisdom. The interesting three-line between that. and the subject matter we've discussed. in power and seduction is that by. learning to master something you build. that sense of self-esteem and confidence. that we're looking for um to to be good.

at the former topics mentioned. But. on the topic of um mastery, the first. chapter in this book and really the. first question a lot of people ask is. this question about finding your. passion. And I've always had a difficult. relationship with this question because. it sometimes assumes that there's one of. them and that you have to go in search. of it somewhere. Uh in the first chapter. of your book you talk about discovering. your life task. Um. why why is it important Is it the same. thing? Is Is finding your passion and. finding your life task the same thing?

You know, I just recorded this yesterday. uh on my own podcast. I went on a rant. about how it's not about passion. It's. not about finding your passion. I. actually don't like that word passion. It kind of makes me cringe. Because if you think about it, passion. to succeed at anything requires time and. effort and boredom and tedium. So let's just say as a simple example, you're learning to play the piano. When. you first sit down at the piano, you. have to play these really insipid tunes.

It's so boring. You have to learn you. know, um I forget what they call it um. finger exercises and scales on any. instrument You have to learn scales, etc. It's tedious, man. If you think. it's got to be passion. forget it, you're never going to get. far. The thrill comes after a year of. playing the piano and you get better at. it and better and better. And now starts. coming fun. Then 10 years, it's more. fun. Then 20 years, it's fantastic, you. know? I'm not I'm not trying to name-drop.

here, but the other night I had dinner. with Stevie Wonder. It was the most amazing thing I ever. seen. He's absolutely I wish I'd. interviewed him for my book. Speaking of. genius. You know, and and he's blind, obviously. Everybody knows. But I was watching him he performed for. us we were over there with a group group. of friends at his recording studio. I. was watching him play the piano and he's. blind. Right? And he's he's improvising. And. it's just absolutely brilliant and. amazing. As I'm seeing this I'm.

thinking, I could see the thousands of. hours he's been putting in just touching. these keyboards and knowing where the. where the where the keys are. You know, it was just mind bog mind blowing how. amazing it was. That is the power that. the human brain naturally has through. hours and hours and hours of effort. That's how it works. So, you know, he didn't get there because it. was passion. He got there cuz he was a. child prodigy at the age of 11. He was.

signed to a contract with Motown. Records, right? He was playing that as he was a kid hour. after hour after hour after hour. He had. a love for the piano, but it wasn't like. every time he sat down it had to be. passionate about it. He had the patience. to put up with all of the boring stuff, okay? So, you want to discover what you were meant. to what you have a connection to, what. you have a love for, right? When you're.

a child, hopefully, or when you're 18 or. 19 or 20. That's the best time to. discover it. All right? You decide and it doesn't have to be. something highfalutin or or worth uh you. know, like intellectual. You could be. great with your hands. You could be. great with your body. You could be great. with images and visuals. You could be. great with words. You could be great in. many different areas. Okay? They're all. equal. They're all great. You as a child. are naturally So, there's a a book I.

always recommend for people called The. Five Frames of Mind by Howard Gardner. In which he talks about the five forms. of intelligence that humans have. The Each brain biogenetically is wired. in one direction or the other. You want to know that you want to feel. it inside of you. It's like a feeling. It's not an. intellectual thing. You feel when you're. doing sports that it's it's good. It's a. natural thing. It's what I'm meant for. When you're involved with words like I.

was when I was 8 years old, it felt. right. Felt like a natural fit. I have. to follow this path. When you're 3 or 4. years old and it's music like Stevie. Wonder and you're hearing this in your. head, wow, that's that's it for me, right? Okay, you feel it. You feel this. connection. All right. Now you fast forward to when. you're 18 or 19 years old and you're. having to make a career choice. Okay, so. I call that your 20s the most important. phase of your life. That's going to make.

or break you in some way. If you spend your 20s trying to learn. skill in something that connects to you. deeply, right? Then things are going to happen to you. by the time you reach 30. You've. discovered your life's task. It may not. be something so specific. For me, it was writing and words, but I didn't. know what to write. I tried novels, I. tried journalism, I tried theater, I. tried screenwriting.

But you know it it gives you a direction. and you try and you try and try and you. know that's what you were meant for. That's what you were destined for. You have You feel connected to it. You. feel a love for it. And so when it comes. time to do the tedious stuff, you're able to do it because you know in. the end it'll pay rewards. You'll get. better and better at it and the. connection is so deep that to not do it. would be miserable. So, you can't think of everything in life. having to be pleasurable and having to. be passionate. There's going to be.

boredom. There's going be tedium. How do. I deal with it? You have to feel a. greater love than just mere pleasure or. passion. It's got to be something so. deep within you that to not do it will. make you deeply unhappy. For me not to. write or be a writer, I don't think I'd. be alive right now. I would have been so. miserable. I would have been so. alienated from who I am. So, that's what. will get you through. That's That's what. a life's task is. When you think about that, in the book. you talk about the first phase, which. is, you know, your apprenticeship.

on your journey to mastery. When you're in that apprenticeship. phase, you know, when you're maybe early in. your career, you're early in on your. journey to becoming the pianist, the. violinist, the podcaster, the. entrepreneur, whatever, what are the the most important things. to be. um selecting for as it relates to the. job you take, the people you're around, that kind of thing. Like, if there's a. 23-year-old listening to this that is a. you know, an apprentice at a floristry. shop. making bouquets of flower, and they're.

being offered five different jobs in the. industry of floristry, which one should. they be looking at if they're in the. early steps of their apprenticeship? Very easy question to answer. Thank you. Um you want to look for the job that. offers you the most possibilities of. learning. So, if you're going to go to a florist. shop. where um there's only one other person. there, it's like an entrepreneur who. started it, and you're going to be like their. right-hand man or woman, and you're. going to learn, and the pay is half of.

what you could get at this very fancy. You could be a working at the shop at. some department store where they'd pay. you triple, take the job that pays 1/3. where you're going to learn the most. You're going to learn about the. business. You're going to learn from the. ground up, and, you know, there's going. to be a level of excitement where, you know, we might not survive another. few months. We've got to work hard. We've got to be motivated. We're all on. the the page here. A lot of people, when they're 23, they. grab the job with the biggest paycheck,

and that's a mistake. Because if you go. to like a large large firm, you're kind of lost. You don't have as. much responsibility. You suddenly have. to deal with all the political games, the 48 laws of power. You're not paying attention. You're not. developing skills as much. You don't. have as much responsibility. Take the job that has 1/2 the salary, but you're responsible, you're going to. be learning, and it's up to you. That's that's the most important thing. you can do when you're at that point in.

your life. You say there's three steps in that. apprenticeship. Deep observation. Is that what you mean when you say deep. observation? You mean like being able to. observe the job happening, or do you. mean something else? Well, it means. that. It also means. So, most people when they start a job, their whole their first impulse is, I've. got to impress people. I've got to make. them like me. That's that inward direction that's so. deadly in seduction, and it's deadly in. life. You want to be outer directed. You.

want to observe the codes and. conventions of your field, the social. codes. You know, what what's acceptable. behavior, what's not acceptable. behavior, the skills involved, the the. various heuristics, the various things. that you have to learn that create. skill. You want to be a sponge absorbing. what's going on around you. What are the. things you need to learn? What are the. valuable skills? What are the things. that aren't valuable? What are Who are. the people you need to avoid? Who are. the people you need to emulate?

You're a a laser. You're just observing. everything around you, and not worried. about yourself. That's the proper That's. deep observation. You talked about skill. there. It's all well and good seeing. skills and knowing which skills are. important, but acquiring those skills is. point number two when you're in that. apprenticeship phase in life. Skills. acquisition. And this kind of goes to. what you're saying with the working in a. florist shop next to the entrepreneur. You're going to be hands-on. You're. going to be doing. Which is also goes to. what you said earlier about parents and. children, like putting them in.

situations where they get to do stuff. Yeah. A lot of jobs don't offer that. A lot of. jobs don't offer the difficulty, the. challenge. Right? How helpful is that? Well, we call it. learning by doing. And you see some things play into how. the human brain operates. That was. That's what you want. I give the image. in the in the intro to master the Pardon. the alliteration here, but the brain has. a grain to it. You want to work with that grain. You. don't want to work against the grain cuz. it's counterproductive. And one of the.

grains of the brain, sorry, is learning. by doing. When. you know, flashback 300,000 years ago. and we're sitting there, we're making. tools out of bones, out of wood, etc. The way the skill was passed on to other. people, it didn't die with the with one. generation, was you watched this person. making the tool and then you watched. them and you learned and you imitated. them. Flash forward to the medieval period in. Europe where they had apprentices,

apprenticeship schools. Seven years. you're learning masonry, you're learning. carpentry, you're learning whatever. For seven years you're sitting there. watching somebody make things and you're. doing it. That's how the brain operates. You learn by doing, not by thinking. Not. by thinking, "Oh, this is how things are. fitted in mortar you know, with mortars, etc., etc." No, I'm I'm doing it with my. hands. The human. the brain and the hand have the most. connection of any part of our body.

because so much of our power as a. species depended on our hands. We don't. have much of that anymore, but. learning by doing things with your hands. or making things is how the brain is. wired. So, you want to go with that. grain. So, you want to do things. You. want to make things. you want to be. learning through action, not through. just a lot of talk. And, you know, As you might know, the show is now. sponsored by Airbnb. I can't count how. many times Airbnbs have saved me when. I'm traveling around the world. Whether. it's, you know, recently when I went to.

the jungle in Bali, or whether it's when. I'm staying here in the UK, or going to. business in America. But, I can also. think of so many times where I've stayed. in a host's place on Airbnb, and I've. been sat there wondering, "Could my place be an Airbnb as well?". And if it could be, how much could I. earn? It turns out you could be sitting. on an Airbnb goldmine without even. knowing about it. Maybe you have a spare. room in your house that friends stay. from time to time. You could Airbnb that. space and make a significant amount of. money instead of letting it stay empty.

That in-law, that guest house, that. annex where your parents sometimes stay, you could Airbnb that and make some. extra income for yourself. Whether you. could just use some extra money to cover. some bills, or for something a little. bit more fun, your home might be worth a. little bit more than you think. And you. can find out the answer to that question. by going to airbnb.co.uk/host. One of the things that um that you. referenced at the start of this. conversation, I think maybe even off. camera, was in 2018 you had a stroke. Um.

and that changed your life in a very. fundamental way. Can you tell me what what happened and. how it's how it changed you? Well, it it was a. terrifying experience. Um you know, I was in a coma. Uh I emerged from that and suddenly. I'm somebody who's very physical. I I. sports was huge part of my life. I would. swim very long distances. I love. mountain biking. I I was doing all kinds.

of um. hiking. It was extremely important to. me. I was every single day I did. something physical to take my mind off. things. Suddenly it's taken away from. me. The left side of my body is. basically paralyzed. I have no control. over it. To this day, I still have. problems with it. Can't swim. Can't mountain bike. Can't hike, right? I can't take my mind I can't think while. I'm taking a hike. I can't type. For a. writer, that's not much fun.

I had to deal with crap that I've never. had to deal with my life. I had a pretty. easy time compared to this. I had to. learn new life skills. when I'm already 62 years old, you know? That isn't easy stuff. I don't want to. whine or complain cuz people deal with. worse stuff all the time. A lot of. people get cancer, etc. But it's this Anybody who's had a stroke. knows what I'm talking about. It's very. hard because you can practice and. practice and practice and practice hours.

and hours of therapy. I do over an hour. of therapy every day, and you hardly. notice any results. The frustration. You takes you 10. minutes to tie your shoes. You can't. button your your your thing you have to. get other people to do that. It's hard. to cut food. You have to be patient. You have to. accept this. You have to find another. way of loving your life, of accepting. these things that you took for granted. before. And I tell people, I look out my.

window now where I'm writing, and I see. people walking their dog, and I put. myself in their shoes and I go, "God, that must be so great just to walk your. dog down the street. What a pleasurable. thing." They don't realize it. You take it for granted now. Please. don't take it for granted. Understand. that the ability that you have now to. run, to walk your dog, to swim, to type, to it can be taken away from you. And. just appreciate your life for what you. have because the things that I love were.

taken away from me, and I wish they. hadn't been. So, I've had to adjust. myself. You know, when something like that. happens in life, when you. when you are the the victim of an of a. tragedy or instance or circumstance or. something that happens, there's often a. degree of unfairness surrounding it. When I when I read about that incident. in 2018, I read that it was a bee sting. that caused the clot that caused the. stroke.

Yeah, I know. It's actually, I think, a wasp. But if. that wasp had been like. moving wind had been a little different. and it had moved this way instead of. this way, may not have had a stroke. You know, but I can tell you this. So, um. in May of that year, the the stroke was. in August. In May, I'd finished The Laws. of Human Nature, which took me 5 years. And when I finished that book, I felt like I was near death. I was so.

exhausted. I was so drained. You know, my wife was really worried about me. because I I just looked really haggard. Slowly, I kind of recovered, but then. in July, I went to New York. and I forgot my blood pressure. medication that I take. So, my blood. pressure was starting to rise. And then. I came back to LA and I walked in this. park and the bee the wasp stung me here. and my whole chest turned red and it was. like the most unbearable feeling. So, I went to the hospital. They gave me.

this drug called prednisone to relieve. the itching. Prednisone increases your. blood pressure. And so, when I ended up having the. stroke, the blood clot, it was right. where the wasp sting was. So, the. neurologist said, "Probably all this cholesterol was. released from that drug. the from that wasp sting here and that's. where the blood clot occurred. Okay?". But there were all these other. circumstances that kind of led to it, a. kind of a perfect storm. And maybe. if I hadn't had that wasp sting, it.

would have happened 4 months later under. different circumstances and I would have. died. Because what happened was. I was driving my car when I got my. stroke. My wife was in the other seat. She saw. something really strange going on my. face. I didn't notice it. She forced me. to pull over the side of the road. 90% of the time I'm alone. I'm swimming. I'm hiking. I'm driving. Could have happened 4 months from then.

She wouldn't be there. I'd be dead right. now. So, I can't really think in terms of oh, if that wasp had been diverted. It's It would be a good feeling, but. it's too painful for me to imagine. I. like to think of. fortunately someone was there who saved. my life. Because it could have very well. happened 4 months from then because I my. body was worn down. And something much worse could have. happened. That That journey you described of. having to rebuild and relearn and re-.

redesign your life. It's We've talked. about the topic of power so much in this. conversation. In that moment it sounds like your power. to some degree had been taken from you. You know, um. You You You learn like at least for me. when I looked at people I looked at. people differently after my stroke. I had more empathy for them. I'm. normally an empathetic person, but I was. looking at people who in co- in the. pandemic. who got long COVID, who were having.

strokes, or were having terrible. circumstances. Or when I look at people. who are disabled cuz I'm essentially. disabled now. I understand them. I And also the other. thing is when I look at people who are. really poor, um. who are struggling in life, they feel really dependent and helpless. I felt that physically. I don't feel. that materially cuz I don't have that. problem anymore, thank God. But I I have.

more empathy. I understand it not in an. intellectual way, but in a visceral, physical way. That sensation of. I don't know where my food's coming. from. I don't know what's going to. happen the next day. I'm weak. I'm. dependent. I'm helpless. It's miserable. I kind of understood that feeling now on. a on a different level. On a level that affected me personally, and it's a lot different than having it. affect you in an intellectual way. The phases in that journey to where you.

are today. The first phase after the. incident, you wake up. You realize that. your your life has changed. What's. what's going on in your psychology? What's going on in your mind? You talked. about helplessness and. depression. to be honest with you, what happened to. me was. right afterwards, there was a level of. delusion in my mind. I kept thinking, "Well, in 3 months, I'll be back at it. I'll be In 6 months, I'll be swimming. In a year, I'll be hiking again." I. deluded my I wasn't aware of how hard.

the process was. And then 6 months, 8 months, a year down. the road, as I realized I was wrong, that's when the depression set in. That's when it really started hitting. me. I thought I'd be back. Here I am, 4. years on. I thought I'd be back to my. life, but I'm not. You know? So, that's what was the. hardest struggle was actually a year in. there and going, there's a phase where you kind of. plateau, where you're not really. progressing anymore. That's the worst. part of it. I'm progressing now again,

because I have a great therapist, but. I had to deal with really bad depression. about a year, a year and a half in, when. it started realize, "This is my life, man. I'm going to. always have this funny arm that's bowing. in. I'm going to be walking like this.". I I I don't know what I never expected. this in my life. So, I've had to deal. with that and I've had to kind of. find a way to not let it get me down, to. find other pleasures and joys in life,

etc., which I have. How how how did you. find a way to not let it get you down? I'm thinking now about people that are. listening to this that might be. struggling with their own subjective. struggles in life. They've been They've. lost their job. They've They've. You know, they've They have a. disability, whatever it might be. What. are What are the successful strategies. you've deployed to try and remain. I keep that peace of mind. Well, I don't know how much of it is. applicable because I'm at a phase of. life where I don't have material.

worries, you know? And I could have had. a kind of stroke where my physical. element would have been untouched, but. my brain would have been damaged, which. is another part. That would have been worse because I. wouldn't have been able to write another. book. And I have a very active mind. Um. So, for me, being able to write another. book is my salvation. So, when it's 3:00. in the afternoon when I get down to. writing, it's the happiest moment of my life. I.

feel at peace. I'm back to my work, and. I love my work, and I love what I'm. writing about. It's saved me a lot. I do meditation. I've been meditating. now for about 12 years, I think, more. more than that. Every morning, it's a ritual. I have to. meditate. If I don't, something is. wrong. And I've never missed a day, I can. honestly say. And it it just calms me down. It just. gives me a strength throughout the whole. day. So, I get up.

7:00, you know, the sun's usually. shining cuz it's Los Angeles. And um. I go, "It's the morning. I'm greeting the morning. I'm greeting. the sun. It's like I'm in like I'm a you. know, somebody 4,000 years ago in a. tribe. Here's the sun. It's It's a. miracle that there's even something like. that. The birds are chirping. I'm. looking at the ivy. The sky is blue. I just calm myself down. Intrusive negative thoughts start.

popping into my mind. You didn't do. this. You have a podcast today at 2:00, Robert. You got to do this, that, and. the other. I get rid of them. I go, "Calm down. Put. that away." Ground yourself in the. moment. It's helped immeasurably. The other thing is. always keep in mind that there are. people who have it worse than you. So, I. don't want to feel sorry for I don't. like the sense of feeling sorry for. myself. In fact, sometimes I turn it around. And I look at that person walking the. dog or jogging and I go, "I actually. feel sorry for you because you're not.

aware of how precarious life is. You're. not aware of how this could be taken. away from you. You're not aware of how. precious it is to just be alive and just. to see the sky and the birds.". So, I feel better than you in a way. I. turned it around. I don't want to feel. sorry for myself. You think there are. people who have it worse. I read in the. newspaper all the time, you know, cancer, you're in Ukraine, or I was. dealing a lot with people in in Iran. right now, what they're dealing with.

I don't have to deal with that kind of. crap, like being in Iran and dealing. with that daily life. How How. horrifying, you know? These are thoughts. that take you out of the moment where. you're feeling sorry for yourself and. you're kind of grateful for certain. things. So, those are some of the strategies. I've had to kind of. create for myself. I find it so um. I find it so. I guess powerful to hear those. strategies because. we all get caught up in.

our narrow perspective and our own. subjective feelings that we're suffering. or that life is against us and then that. kind of torments us in many ways. As. you've. post-stroke in 2018, um is there anything else that you have. learned about the nature of happiness. from from that incident that we that you. might not have known before that. incident that I might not fully. understand now? The things I heard you talk about are. the importance of a sense of purpose, how perspective and gratitude are.

central to. our feelings of happiness. But is there. any other observations you've had that. I'm just saying this from my own selfish. perspective because I want to know. Well, first of all, I don't want to give. the impression. that I've solved everything because I'm. not I'm a work in progress. I have. moments where I get so frustrated. and it's almost like I have Tourette's. syndrome. I'm going to go. Like I can't. you know, I'm still 4 years in and my. arm is still like this and I still can't. brush my teeth the way I want. I get.

very frustrated. So. I'm getting better, but it's still a. work in progress. So I don't want to. give the impression. that I've somehow this I've mastered it. because it has mastered me. I have a. long way to go, but I'm getting a lot. better, a lot better at it day-to-day. Um. you know, I don't know. I think I've. kind of touched on everything only in. the sense of. What about connection? You talked about. your wife. Yes, she's helped me a lot.

God bless her soul. She's had to take. care of me, you know? And I was somebody who's always prided. myself for being independent. I was crap. That was another thing that. was taken away from me. I was traveling. around the world doing book tours, going. to book festivals, doing interviews, doing consulting in various different. countries. I can still travel, but it it requires a. lot more. So I lost my independence. I have to have somebody help me with. food every single day. I need things.

being done for me. And I feel terrible that you know, she's. been put in that position. But, she's. been very gracious about it, and she. understands she has a lot of empathy cuz. she knows. what I've lost. So, having somebody. in your life, if I were alone, I. couldn't deal with it, man. I wouldn't. have been able to deal with it. It just would have been too much for me. Would have been too depressing. That depression that socks you after a. year would have leveled me. It's just I. couldn't have made it.

So, that's an incredibly important. aspect. And just appreciating. the little things in life that I just. you know, it's a cliché, and I hate. saying clichés, but um. you know, I have that feeling almost. every day where I'm looking at somebody. going. man, that must be I'm like riding my. bike, and I'm seeing somebody just. sitting in a park reading a book on a. bench, and I'm going. God, that is so much fun just to be able. to do that. I can't do that anymore, but.

I put myself in their body. The little. things in life that you take for granted. are so filled with so much happiness and. joy that you're not thinking about. If. that person sitting on a bench reading. that book only realized what this person. riding by thinks, maybe they wouldn't. take it for granted. So, so many those. little things that you don't think about. have incredible importance, at least to. me, having lost them. So, I don't know if I'm. I wish I had something better, but.

that's. I can only come from my own experience. I can't make it up. Well, your books for tend to focus on. the nature of the human condition. What what what how we are as humans for. better or for worse. And it was it was interesting cuz as you. were talking over several topics, when. you're talking about seduction and the. 48 Laws of Power and Mastery, there's a part of me that's, you know, that started to feel a little bit, I. don't know, feel the darkness that is. innate within humans a bit a bit too.

much, maybe. That we're a little bit too contrived. and manipulative and conniving and. whatever else. And I do I was thinking, do I really like humans? You know, I'm. one of them. I'm very conscious of trying to separate. myself. I hear people doing interviews. when they're talking about society and I. always think, you are society. I am human. I am I I'm all of the things. you've described in many many ways. But has your journey of learning about. humans and human nature made you. personally more loving towards humans,

more optimistic about the human race, or. has it made you the. the opposite? Honestly. Well, it's made. me more loving, but it hasn't made me. more optimistic. Okay. Um. you know, there's so many things that. are are. seem to be going awry in the world. today. Now, I happen to be um. the form of meditation I do is Zen. meditation. And in Zen meditation, there's this idea. of what's called the Tathagata, which.

means it was a it was another name for. Buddha, and it means things as they are. And one thing you meditate is. the world isn't good or bad or ugly or. evil or unjust, it just is. Things just. are. This is just the way the world is. This is the karmic chain, the wheel of. Dharma, that's been going on for. thousands of years. It just is. It's. just the state of affairs. It's your discriminating your mind. It's. your mind that creates all of these.

things. Let go of that and you can. connect to the way the world is without. judging it and it becomes this very. beautiful place. And so, I a part of me wants to think of this is. just the way things are, but a part of me goes, this isn't good the way things are and. and I hope they're changed. So, knowing human nature and knowing how. human nature tends to twist things, how. whenever we invent a new piece of. technology, it could be the telephone,

it could be the television, it could be. the internet, it could be. cryptocurrency, or it could be, you know, AI, it tends to twist and darken and degrade. and and and pervert anything that was. once maybe beautiful or interesting. It makes me worried about the future. So, there I turn pessimistic and I'm. worried, but then. I always think that there's hope with. young people and here I'm spouting. another cliché. Damn, I'm going to shoot. myself after this interview. But,

I feel like when I was young, I was. angry about things. I didn't like the. way the world was. It was. Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher and. yuppies and ugly, you know, values I. didn't have and I I thought there was. something wrong in the world. I was. angry and I wanted to change it. Young people are still like that. And I. think a lot of young people, Gen Z or. whatever the next one is, whatever they. call them, I don't know yet. Um, they're growing up in a world that isn't. healthy, that isn't right. And when.

you're young, you have all these energy, all this physicality, and you you don't like it, you don't. feel comfortable in it. And I know a lot. of young people don't feel comfortable. And at some point they're going to. rebel. And they're going to say, "I'm tired of. all this virtuality. I want something. real. I want some I want real experiences.". That spirit of rebellion that I see. seeds of and signs of gives me hope. And. I hope that it continues. Because I.

remember once I had a dream, probably. the most memorable dream I ever had. It was maybe about 15 years ago or so, and I dreamt that I was there in the. year 2072. or something like that. I was walking. around the year 2072. It was the streets. of New York. I was going, "Wow, everybody looks so happy. Humans finally figured out how to. do well in this world. They figured out. how to what matters. There's hope in. this world. That was my moment in that. dream. This has always sort of stuck.

with me. Maybe that will happen. Maybe. it won't. I don't know. I'm not. Nostradamus. But, you know, so this I struggle with that. I struggle with part of me is. pessimistic and part of me seeks. seeds of hope, particularly in young. people, and I really, really, really. wish they figured out because my. generation, generations before, we've. kind of screwed this world over. Things. aren't good right now. And I'm hoping. that spirit of rebellion, that young. energy, will kind of come and and kick.

the apple cart and say, "Screw all this. We want a different world.". We have a closing tradition on this. podcast where the last guest asks a. question for the next guest, not knowing. who they're going to ask it for. Um and the question that's been left for. you to answer is, "In adult life, when. were you most happy and why?". And then brackets it says, "Are you this. way now? And if not, why?".

Well, I have to say the happiest moment of my. life. came at that turning point when I was 38. or so, and I was given the opportunity to write. the 48 Laws of Power, and it came out, and my life had changed. And so, the. contrast. from being.

in a in a small apartment, um rather poor, rather desperate, where. people were beginning to worry about me, and suddenly. things were clicking together, and I was. having fun, and I was having all these. adventures, and I had reasonable lot of. money. The shift was so radical and so. dramatic that it was extremely exciting, you know, and it was almost like a drug. high. It was pretty damn intoxicating. Um. I don't have that now because it's 25.

years ago. and I'm kind of still riding off of that. and the and the high has worn off. But I can remember in my body. how depressed I was and that feeling and. I never lose it. I'm very grateful for. what I have because I know. it could have turned out very. differently. So, I still feel that initial happiness. cuz I know. if you have success when you're 24,

you're not ready for it. You don't. realize how evanescent it could be, how. it can disappear and how important it. is. I never had that cuz I struggled for so. long. and um so many bad jobs. So, the happiness the euphoria isn't the. same. It's not the same intensity. But. I'm still riding on that wave because I. know where I was before it happened and. it's been an amazing journey. I you know, my wife has been there for. it with because can you believe that you.

were having dinner with Stevie Wonder? When you were 12 years old, you told me. Robert that that was the first album you. ever bought was Innervisions. And what would you told yourself when. you were 12 years old that this is. what's happening? Whoa, I would have I. would have flipped out. It's been an amazing journey. I can't I. can't complain. My whining complaint card was taken away. from me in 1998 when I published that. book and so I'm still feeling I'm still. feeling the.

the last vestiges of that euphoria from. back then. Robert, thank you. Thank you so much. I've um I've been a. tremendous fan of your work for what. feels like forever in my life and um um. your your wisdom, your your willingness. to confront difficult top subject matter. that a lot of people would avoid because. there is darkness interlaced in a lot of. the subject matter that you've written. about in some of your books, but it is. very. it's very human, important, as you say,

objectively neutral darkness that just. is, um and for you to confront that over and. over again in your work is is it makes. it some of the most important work I. think anyone could do because it's the. work that a lot of us avoid, but your. vulnerability and openness today as well. have been like a shot at my ass in terms. of gratitude, um and the importance of. perception, um as it relates to our happiness and. our sense of a sense of self. So, thank. you so much. I've really enjoyed this. conversation more than I could express. in words. Thank you so much, Steven. It. was It was a great interview. I was. telling Chimamanda that uh.

I've done thousands of these podcasts, and I know. I can tell I've done my 10,000 hours. I. can tell. a great interviewer from a mediocre. interviewer, and you're in that elite. category because you ask really great. questions and you're a great listener, and it's been really fun. So, thank you. so much. I really appreciate the. opportunity. Means a lot to me. Thank. you, Robert. Okay. You're welcome. Quick one. As you guys know, we're lucky. enough to have Bluejeans as a sponsor.

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