Rick Rubin: The One Human Trait AI Can Never Replicate & How To Protect Your Future

Jay-Z wrote in a way that no one else. wrote. All the other rappers that I. worked with spent a lot of time writing. lyrics. And I never saw Jay write. lyrics. And when I played him the beat. for 99 Problems, he said, "Okay, just. keep playing it over and over again.". And he sat in the back of the room. You. could hear him mumbling or humming. After 20 or 30 minutes, he's like, "Okay, I got it." And ran into the other. room and did the first verse. He did, let's say, three takes. And then he came. in, he listened to him. He's like, "Oh, yeah. I think the second one's good." It. just happens in his mind. And then this. big list of people that you've worked.

with. I mean, it's just this. unbelievable list. Jay-Z and Kanye Adel, Justin Timberlake, and MC Jagger and the. Red Hot Chili Peppers. Why do you think. these people call you? Because I've been. making things for 40 years and I started. making music as a hobby. It ended up. taking on a life of its own and becoming. a business. And that list, they're not. special. I would say they're ordinary. people who made a decision. I think of. Eminem as a good example. Eminem is. someone who's always writing because he. wants to be the best he could possibly. be and he's insanely obsessive about.

that. It. >> appears that some people are just like. inherently more creative than others. >> Well, creativity is beaten out of us. over the course of our lives. We go to. school, we're taught to follow rules. The rules are not there to help us. The. rules are there to control us. We're not. taught to be free creative thinkers. So, I'm suggesting we break free and express. ourselves freely. How? Well, all of the. best things involve risk. It's only. through the risk that the greatness is. shown. And so something needs to die. That lifestyle in that moment, that.

career path, that relationship, that's. what needs to die. Is there a step one. in that direction for people that want. to hit the reset button? >> Yeah. The first one I I'll say is. >> your early 30s, you had a depressive. episode yourself. >> Yeah. It was really a tough time. I felt. like the rug had been pulled out from. under me. started having panic attacks. and couldn't sleep and got really sick. and it felt like I was shot with a. poison arrow. Take me into that part of. your life. So, um,

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>> I'm going to start Rick where my. curiosity is. >> Yes. >> How do you sort of self-categorize or. selfidentify in terms of like your. profession? >> H I would say I'm involved in art and. creativity. And what is your involvement. in art and creativity? >> Might be as a coach. It might be as a uh collaborator. >> It might come up in a film project or it. might come up in someone who's has a.

startup who wants to talk about what are. the things creative solutions. any any. problem that we have or any anything we. want to get better at, there's usually a. creative path. to improve or at least to test to see if. there are other ways around. Often the. accepted version of how to move forward. is another limitation. >> I'm very curious about your principles. as it relates to finding the solution, whether that's in business or whether.

it's in music. Um, and I'm I'm really. interested in if there's any. similarities in the process of finding a. solution because I'm an entrepreneur. I. guess I'm a podcaster as well. I do. investments all day every day. I'm in. the pursuit of a solution to a problem, a people problem, a creative problem. Do you have any highle principles that. are broadly applicable irrespective of. the type of problem you're solving? >> I'll tell you an interesting one. A word. I've been thinking about lately is. indefensible. Indefensible is a funny.

word because it's a it's a really. projorative word. It's a strong. projorative. If something is indefensible, it's not just bad. Indefensible is is. really. extreme. I'm thinking that in making art, indefensible is actually a good thing. Maybe not only a good thing, maybe a. necessary thing. that you take things to the extreme.

that are indefensible. I can't tell you why. I can't tell you why because it's beyond. reason. So, I'm I'm in that camp of reason is a. is a tiny sliver of how decisions get. made. And I I would be much more in the camp. of intuition. or maybe some sort of a.

guide guidance from the universe. Openness to being guided by. something more something. the creative force of the universe. You. could call it God. I call it God. You're. not required to. What art that you've. been involved in creating would you. would you define in the moment as being. indefensible? >> A little over a year ago there was a.

meme about vibe coding. >> Mhm. >> The way it started was if something new. happened. A guy named Andrev Carpathy. coined the term vibe coding. I didn't. know what it was. That same day that he. coined the term and tweeted about it. Someone put a picture of me with my. wearing headphones with my eyes closed, hand on a mouse. And that image became. associated with vibe coding. Had nothing. to do with me. I saw it. I didn't know. what it meant. But then over the next.

few days, friends started sending me. hundreds of this image associated with. vibe coding in all different ways. And I. thought, hm, now the the old me, precreative act me would have laughed. and moved on with my life. And one of. the things that I learned through. working on the creative act, one of the. things it talks about a lot is. we're given information all the time.

around us. There are all these uh. opportunities or invitations. being made all the time. In the past, if. someone told me about a movie that. sounded like I didn't want to see it, that doesn't sound like it's for me, I. would I would ignore it. But if two or. three people say you might want to see. this movie, I might even if it's not. interesting to me, it's almost like the. universe some too much energy behind. this. So this was an example of a lot of. energy coming towards me relating to.

vibe coding. I don't know what it is. And I thought, okay, how do I. participate? If I want to participate in. this thing that's going on, an. experiment, creative experiment. And I. thought, okay, I'm going to write a joke. tweet. related to vibe coding. I thought about. it and came up with tools will come, tools will go, only the vibe coder. remains. And typically the tweets get. 10,000 20,000 views. I look the next day.

and this joke tweet has a million and a. half views. It's like something's going. on. It was an indefensible act. There. was no reason for me to do it. But I'm. feeling this energy coming at me from. all of these different directions. I participate. I I answer the. invitation. Comes back. there's interest said hm. what would be the next step and the next. step is well I still don't really know. what vibe coding is maybe I'll write a.

book about vibe coding I put aside all. of my real work my professional work. to dedicate myself to this book on vibe. coding. and again I couldn't explain it I. couldn't tell you why I can't say it was. a good idea none of those things I was. following a calling. feeling like I was being invited to. participate in this thing and this is. the way that I could answer the call. So.

I did. >> In so many parts of our life, we might. get that invitation to participate in. something that is none of our business. >> Yes. All the time. >> Yeah. And we and we usually say no. because it's not what's on our business. card. It's not what we've done in the. past. And we are, you know, the more. successful we become, the more narrow we. become in many respects. >> Yes. I'm thinking about this idea of like how. one resists their label so they can. capitalize on all the callings or you. know the so they don't miss. >> yeah important. >> any label that you put on yourself or.

that's put on you makes you smaller no. label supply. no label supply we are beyond labels. >> it's tempting though isn't it because. labels are nice shortcuts at cocktail. parties. >> there are also no shortcuts. and I hope you don't spend too and. shaming cocktail parties. >> No, I don't. Don't worry. I'm guessing. what goes on there. >> Okay. So, that's interesting. This idea. of sometimes following the indefensible. >> Well, if you feel a call, even if it. doesn't make sense,

if you uh for for an artist to write a. song. and you really feel like this is really. this is some this is really meaningful. to me. I think no one's going to like. it, but I really feel it. I can't defend. it. That's the best thing you can do. If. you make something where you think this. is for everyone or they're going to love. it, it's like uh it's too easy. The most.

interesting things are challenging. It's. challenging to you. It's challenging to. the people who see it. The things that. are revolutionary. I most of the things. that I've fallen in love with over my. life creatively art when I first see it. often or first hear it I might not like. it at first because it's it's too much. or I don't have any context for it. The. true revolutionary works we don't have. context for. It appears to me Rick that.

sometimes things that are more of the. same do bigger numbers. So I've been. thinking about maybe for a period of. time I was thinking about two artists. One of them is. Drake who listened makes great music. makes hits everybody loves them. They. come out we dance in the clubs to them. etc. Then I was thinking about I think a. record that you worked on with Kanye. Jesus. >> Mhm. >> And I remember where I was when I first. heard that as a huge Kanye fan. I. thought here we go. I'm going to get. more college dropout. Here we go. And I.

put it on and I was like what the. is this? >> But then I loved it. And in my little. group of six, >> how long did it take? A while. >> A while. >> It took a while. I mean, you know, with. Jake stuff, I I tend to like it on first. listen, >> but with that Jesus album, >> I had to really like persevere and then. I thought it was was genius because it. was a new paradigm. >> Um, you worked on that album. >> Yeah. And that that's a good example of like. it was a sort of an anti-hip hop album.

and that was done intentionally and it. definitely we went as far as we could. into uh. into an indefensible realm. >> But what about the numbers? What about. the sales? What about the record label? >> Do is it an important album to you now? >> Yeah. >> Okay. Did its job. those near-term incentives though. Listen, we need Drake. We need you to. make another. >> We never consider near-term incentive.

ever at any point in time. Never once. Never a consideration. It doesn't exist. We're making things. forever. We're making things that are truly. personal to us. And if it's truly. personal to us, if someone doesn't get. it, that's they just don't get it yet. Or. maybe they'll never get it. And it's. fine because I know this is my diary. entry. Can someone else read your diary.

entry and tell you it's wrong, it's not. good enough, or it's not true. It's not. how you see the world. Everything we. make is a diary entry. Everything we. make is our personal. true expression. The reason we're saying. it is to show you see it like that. We. see it like this or I see it like this. This is how I see it. And with that. information, you can see it's like, ah,

I never considered that before. There's. more. The world is bigger than I. thought. It's not just more the same. It's not. just. more numbers. And it's also the the more. numbers game is a shorter term game. I. remember I made an album with Lincoln. Park who at the time. were probably one of the biggest bands. in the world and they had made three. albums that were I would say. stylistically very similar. They were.

rap rock and they were there was this. there was a rap rock movement. corn, I. guess. Rage Against the Machine was. first, K, Limp Biscuit, all these bands. And Lincoln Park was probably the last. of that wave of music. And they were. wildly successful doing that music. And. when we started working together, there. was a choice. We could continue and do. the next in that same style which the.

audience would love and it would be easy. to do or we could be true to where the. band was in this moment of time 10 years. after they started about probably 8 10. years after they started and be free to. find the new sound the next sound. And. when we did that, probably half of the. audience didn't like it and half of the. audience loved it and new people came. along and they set themselves up.

to have a much longer career of making. the things that they wanted to make. Whereas they were already on the tail. end of a genre that had they made. another one, maybe it would have been it. probably would have been, you know, as. successful as what they had done. But. long-term the genre was dying. >> Mhm. >> Again, none of this was thought about at. the time. Another example I think of is. um Radio Heads Kid A. I remember when. Kid A came out, I didn't like it at all.

I loved the Benz and Okay Computer. They. were my favorite band. And then they. made this album Kid A. And it was. totally different and it really. alienated me. And today that might be my. favorite Radio Head album. It feels like. a risk. Yes. But that's all of the best. things involve risk. >> because I'm sure you've also got. examples where someone followed that. thesis of listening to what they wanted. to make or doing it for themselves and. not thinking too much about the audience. and it didn't work. >> Of course, >> and they could have just made, you know,

a hit and paid off their mortgage and. >> yeah, it's not so interesting. I know. it's not so interesting to me. I think. that's it's a different game. That's. the, you know, that's the investment. commerce game and I'm in the art game. It's just a different thing. There's. nothing wrong with that other game. It's. just not my game. >> Which one leads to more success over the. long term? Defined by, let's say, if we. define success in this context, by the. subjective opinion of people that that. was good and money.

>> All I can say is that I've been making. things for 40 years. I have never done. it the way you're suggesting. I have. always taken the risk. I've always made. my favorite thing. I've always supported. the artists in making their favorite. thing and luckily a lot of revolutionary. things have happened from that and I. would say things that. probably inspired other artists to be. more free and more true and more honest.

and take bigger risks to make something. more interesting made the world more. interesting place. >> Why do you think these people call you? I think it's probably different for. different artists. >> Why did Jay-Z call you? >> The time that I first met Jay was when. he was making the Black Album and he. wanted to. he was planning on retiring and this was. going to be his swan song. His final. album. The Black Album was the Jay-Z's. last album. Turned out not to be, but.

that was the plan. And he asked his 10. favorite producers to each make one. track with them. And ours was called 99. Problems. And it was a really fun. experience to make. >> I mean, what an iconic record that is. What was your contribution to that. record? Everybody knows that record. >> Everybody. >> Yeah. We created the track and we played. it for Jay and he liked it and then he. wrote the words and wrapped on top of. it. >> So you you produced the music.

>> Made the music. I read that you gave him. direction in terms of the lyrics as. well. When my friend Chris Rock had the. idea of um. Ice Tea had a song called 99 Problems. that was the opposite. It was. I have 99 problems and a ain't one. and then it's a story about the girls. >> Mhm. >> And Chris said, you know, 99 problems. would be a great hook and it doesn't. have to be about the girls. And then I. suggested to Jay, make it about the.

problems. And then that's what it was. and business people, startups, they seek. your advice as well. Entrepreneurs. >> all the time. >> And what are they seeking? >> Let's talk about 99 problems a little. more because it's an interesting story. >> Sure. >> Jay-Z was signed to Def Jam Records. Def. Jam Records was the label that I founded. >> and I was no longer at Def Jam when we. made 99 problems. And I remember giving. it to the people at Def Jam and the. person who was the president of Def Jam. at the time listened to and he's like, "Oh, this is great. It'll never be a.

single, but it'll be a great album. track." I remember thinking, okay, and. again, I don't I don't know. I I I. couldn't say, but. the president of the label that I. founded was saying this could never be a. single because it doesn't sound like. everything else on the radio. That was the old way of thinking. That. was the normal way of thinking of like. you make things to go on the radio that. sound like everything else on the radio. But if you do that, who cares?

It's just more the same. So 99 Problems. didn't sound like anything on the radio. So when it eventually got on the radio, it had a big impact. Another band I work. with is called System of a Down. >> Yeah, I remember. >> And I remember bringing their record to. Kevin Weatherly at KRock, which is the. rock station, alternative rock station. in California. And if they play it, all. of the other alternative rock stations. in the country play it. They were like. the leading station. And they this was a. California band that was starting to get.

popular in the clubs. Maybe 200 people. would come, but in a club, the club. would sell out. Good sign. And I brought. I think the song was called Sugar. And I. brought it to Kevin Weatherly and I. played it for him and he said, "Not only. will we not play this record, we will. never play this band on our station. because it sounded insane. It didn't. sound like anything else on the. station." One year later, number one. song on the station, most requested, and two weeks ago, I saw System of a.

Down sell out 80,000 seats in a stadium. in Paris. They sold it out two nights in. a row. I can't tell you how or why this this. works. I can't tell you that there's. anything to follow, but I will say we. made the things that we loved. We never questioned if anyone else was. going to like it. We never questioned. what the audience was going to think. We. never questioned where does it fit in. the market. None of the none of those. normal conversations.

We made our favorite thing. We took it. to an indefensible level as far as we. could go and luckily. it worked out. >> Is there a way to get clearer on what. you love? This sounds like a strange. question, but um. >> meditate. >> Meditate. I learned to meditate when I. was 14. And. I think having a TM. as a grounding element in my life,

>> TM, >> a transcendental meditation. That was. the first type of meditation I learned. when I was 14. It it it changed me. I know this because. I stopped meditating when I went to. college. And then when I moved to. California, right after college, I. started meditating again. Somewhere I. knew it was a big decision and somewhere. I knew there would be a right moment to. start. And it took several months before. I actually sat for the first meditation. after not doing it for several years.

And in that first meditation, I. realized, oh, this is this is very. familiar to me. This is a big part of who I am, even. though I haven't done it in 5 years. It's a big part of how I see the world. The fact that I got to do that from a. young age. >> to understand who you are with it, I'm. going to ask you who you would be. without it. >> I don't know. It it'd be I'm curious. I'm happy that I don't know because I.

like having the practice. But whether I. continue a practice or not, I've done. enough of it over the course of my life. that. I'm there. I'm when I meditate more, it. gets deeper. But even if I don't. meditate, it's like um Maharishi teacher. of transcendental meditation Maharishi. Mahesy Yogi says every time you meditate. it's like making a deposit in the bank.

So it builds up and again that was. rhetoric before but in my experience I. got to see oh it's not rhetoric like I I. actually had this experience. and it changed the way I saw the world. and and I'll say you see beyond the. surface. You can see the depth underneath. And. for me the things on the surface are not. so interesting. I'm interested in the depth the the the.

depth behind it. >> So my first question would be what is. transcendental meditation? >> It's a mantra practice that's done. silently. You do it sitting with your eyes closed. You learn it from a TM teacher. I can't. teach it to you. >> We close our eyes and then the mantra is. a sound vibration. that gets given to you. I was given mine. at when I was 14. I have never uttered. it out loud since that time. I've never.

shared it with anyone. And that's part. of the training. It It's like a a. private sound. and you engage with this sound in the. way that you're taught. 20 minutes. at least once a day, typically twice a. day. I would do it right when I woke up. in the morning and then again before. dinner. Those would be the two the two. windows. I when I lived in California. and I was working in different recording. studios, I meditated with Tom Petty and.

Johnny Cash and different artists before. sessions that would be part of our. practice. Red Hot Chili Peppers. We. would sit and meditate together before. sessions. So, I've had this experience. for a while in my life and it's uh it's. probably the most profound thing I can. mention. We we'll get to others, but. that that that's one that's a learnable, practicable action that really changed. who I am. >> How did you know it was.

efficacious? How did you know it was. working? What is the measure that this. practice is worth that investment in. time. in your view? >> The only proof that I had was getting. away from it and coming back to it. That. was I I recognized it in that first. meditation back. how deep and connected I was to this. thing. >> And I'm guessing this unlocks, you said. a deeper level, a deeper level of. creativity and ideas, >> everything. >> Oh, >> everything,

deeper understanding. >> People often hear that meditation in. various forms is beneficial. very. successful people sit here all the time. and say it's so it's so central to why. I've been able to do what I've done. And. then there'll be people, you know, that. think, well, I sitting there for 10. minutes. My brain is very, very busy. I've tried it once, it didn't really. work. And then they move on. And then I. study some of the great some of the. great creatives in the world, the great. visionaries, people that I thought could. see round corners in an atypical way, like Steve Jobs. And there's always a. practice, a meditation practice, well,

so often at the very heart of of their. brilliance. So I've I don't currently. have a meditation practice. My wonderful. fiance does. She does it every morning. for 20 minutes. She's a breath work. practitioner. So I mean it's her whole. world. And tell me what she says about. it. >> She says it unlocks a deeper level of um. calm. And I don't mean calm as in like. stress. I mean a deeper level of like. groundedness. And she says. she feels more connected.

Now in her context I think that's more. of like a spiritual thing. She feels. more connected to the universe and and. others. >> As far as the creative. experience goes, a spiritual connection. is a big part of that. It's just the. nature of. >> it's the nature of how it works. It's. not an intellectual process. It's a. spiritual process. >> What is the mechanism. that is causing these results that you. see? What from a biological perspective? I I couldn't answer that in the way that. you would hope, but I will say I think.

it it allows you to let go of all of the. ordinary concerns. I I also have a question which is if you. live with a person who says this. practice is so impactful on her life. I'm questioning why you at least haven't. tried it with her for a month to see how. >> good question. >> No, it's a good question.

>> I have no good answer for it. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because it's what it. has to do with it's you're not looking. for cues from the outside. You're. looking for cues on the inside. What. lights you up? What are you excited to. play for your friend? Not what are you. excited to play for your friend of like. what do you think this will do? You're playing for your friend like wow. can you believe something like this. exists in the world? How cool is that? The distinction that I'm trying to make. is often if you read business books or. entrepreneurship books when they're.

talking about innovation when they're. talking about the great companies like. Amazon or I heard Sebastian who's the. CEO of Clara say it the other day who's. a tech founder they spend a lot of time. thinking about the customer the. customer's problem and they work. backwards they call it to the answer. So. they'll zoom in on Rick's world and say. Rick has these problems he's d and. they'll work backwards from there to a. answer. That's how Amazon say they built. the platform. >> And and one of the quotes that's quite. famous with Jeff Bezos is he bets on.

things that he knows won't change. He. says, "No one in 10 is going to come up. to me and say I wish my package would. take longer." So he can double down on. that solving a customer problem. Does. that sit in contrast to what you're. saying or is it the same thing or it's a. different type of work? >> Well, I'll start by saying if you look. at the history of Amazon, it was it lost. money for probably 20 years. It was. considered one of the worst investments. until it wasn't. They kept doubling down. on what they believed in. It wasn't.

working. The audience showed it didn't. work. The model showed it didn't work, but they stuck to what they believed and. it changed the world. >> So, it's it's the same thing. It's it's. doubling down on what you believe in. when all of the metrics are showing you. it's not working. That's the story of. Amazon. Do you think people are um have. different levels of their ability to uh. you know if we take practices like.

meditation aside, it just seems that. through history some people are better. at cultivating that or listening to that. internal voice than others. Obviously, I. sit here and interview these like some. of these great founders and it appears. that some people are just like. inherently more creative than others. Some people are in the analytical part. of their brain and they need 1 plus one. to equal two all the time. I'm wondering. if you know there's other ways if you. think there is an inherent difference in. creativity. >> I think that creativity is beaten out of. us over the course of our lives. I think.

we we go to school, we're told to repeat. back what we're told. We're told to sit. in a chair all day. We're where our. spirits are broken by institutions. We're not taught to be free creative. thinkers. We're taught to follow rules. The rules are not there to help us. The. rules are there to control us. I'm suggesting we break free and be free.

and express ourselves freely. And that's. our purpose here on the planet is to. express ourselves freely. That's why. we're here. >> What you're saying links to something we. were talking about earlier, which is at. a very young age, we're taught that the. things we make are a means to a. particular end, and that end is. promotions, pay rises, capital, success, job titles. >> Yes. >> In the creative process, are you saying. that it's never productive to talk about. how we'll measure success and to try and. optimize for that measurement.

>> in the creative process? I I would I. tend not to think about those things. I can't think of an example where we. would. want to use data. I think it's it's much more about this. internal feeling and then the feeling we. have when you play it for someone, when. you share it with someone, whether it. lights someone up. You can tell when. someone really resonates with something.

Sometimes the numbers don't show the. numbers can't reflect that. You know, you can have two things that are kind of. on equal footing commercially, yet one of them lights you up and the. other one is, well, this gets the job. done. They're different. And longterm, chances are the one that. lights you up is going to have more. value to you and you'll be more willing. to support that thing over time.

>> In your book here, um, the creative act, a way of being, you talk about the. things that block creativity, thoughts and habits not conducive. to the work. Believing you're not good. enough. >> That's a big one. Someone at some point. in time you were singing and someone's. like, "Ah, you can't sing at when you're. a kid and that gets lodged in you. Singing is not something I can ever do. or you're a terrible cook.

or you're not smart enough." So often. the gifts that we have are stifled and. smothered. We're all creative. We may not choose to. embark on a creative make creative. choices, but that's it's on us. We can. we just have bad information. We we. we're told we're not good enough and we. believe it and it's not true. When.

people say that, oh, you know, Rick is a. creative and Steven is say they say. Steven is not a creative. What are they. actually saying? What is that like in. our culture to be a creative? how like. we misunderstanding the definition. You. see what I'm saying? Cuz we do we go. creative. Uh they do a little bit of art. and music stuff. Creative, not creative. Excel documents. Creative. >> What are we actually saying there? >> I think it's a way to um. try to simplify the world. The world is. complicated and I think all of us can do.

anything. I I'm not saying all of us. could do everything to the best of our. ability better than anyone else. That's. a big part of it is the idea of. competition. Like if I want to play baseball, I know. that I could get better at baseball. That doesn't mean I think I could get. good enough to play on the Mets, but I. know I could get better and I know I. could train anything that I'm interested. in and get much better at it. And as soon as we're not capable of.

playing for the Mets, we think it's not. for us and we shut that off. We're not. doing a service to ourselves. We're not. becoming our best selves or really uh. living up to our full potential as. humans. Feels like a natural human instinct to. compare in order to understand the value. of anything. I feel like we do it when. we go to restaurants. There's three. stakes. The expensive one's probably a. bit bougie. The cheap one's probably not. good. I'll go for the middle one. Seems. like a a way that humans take shortcuts,

but we do it with ourselves as well. So, I know that the thing I've made is good. as if I look over at your thing and mine. is ranked better or mine is prettier or. richer. Are you saying for us to get out. of the business of comparison? >> Yes. Because I'm saying it's it's always. apples and oranges. If you if if you. were to ask who's better, Michael. Jackson or Prince, I would say Michael. Jackson's much better at being Michael. Jackson. And Prince is probably better. at being Prince. But you can't compare.

what the two of them do. They do two. different things. Before you mentioned Kanye West and and. Drake, there's no competition there. They do two totally different things. What you get from each of them is. totally different. I wouldn't want from. Drake what I get from Kanye. And I. certainly wouldn't want from Kanye what. I get from Drake. It's It's pointless. >> Is either more creative. That's for you. to decide. That's for you to decide.

There's no The whole idea of competition. between artists is it's such a weird. thing. Again, it's back to who has a. better diary entry. It's ridiculous. >> Feeling you don't have the energy it. takes. These are all things that are not. conducive to the work. >> Yeah, I have that one sometimes. Feeling like I'm not up to it too much. I flew here yesterday from London. I'm. tired. I'm a little jetlagged. I'm going. to show up and talk to you. Maybe it.

won't be good. Maybe it's better to just. lay down, relax, and recover. But I'm. here. I show up. >> You've referred to yourself as a um a. lazy workaholic. >> Yes, >> it's true. >> What is a lazy workaholic? >> Often, most days, I would rather not do. any of the things that I'm scheduled to. do. and I schedule the things and I show. up and I do what needs to get done.

>> Do you ever settle with creative work? The the deadline for the record label is. approaching. The work is not yet done. We'll finish here and we'll send it. >> I tend not to do that. I tend not to. work on deadlines until we're past the. point. The first time we would ever. establish a deadline is when we already. know we've cracked the code. We know. what this is going to be. We can see it. It may not be completely finished, but. we have a good idea of what it is and.

how it's going to work and it's maybe. 90% done. Then we might set a deadline. for that last 10% of finishing it. And. that last 10% probably won't make or. break the project. Part of what you accept when you pursue. the creative process you've described. where it's really about like do I like. it? Do we like it? is you will create. things that are at some some points just. absolute legendary and unlike anything. else that exists. They are not the same.

But part of the risk you take is you'll. make things that other people just don't. like. >> Yeah. That's all there is in this. process is you have an idea, you build. it. You may learn along the way that the. idea was maybe not the best idea and it. turns left and you make I I'm starting. out to make this blue statue and it. turns out to be this red painting. You. don't know that going in, but you. discover it through the process, and it. could take a long time. Other times, you'll think, "I'm going to make this. blue thing." You make it in 5 minutes.

There it is. Done. And and we can't you. can't calculate that. You can't. anticipate what's going to happen. But. if I wasn't doing this experiment here, I would never get to the better thing. It happens all the time. And then. sometimes you build it and it doesn't. work for 20 years and then it becomes. Amazon. >> I've thought a lot recently about how. time horizons change the work that you. do. And that's kind of also what I'm.

hearing there because in that example. you gave of this blue statue thing. If. you were under a time horizon, you. wouldn't have the space for that. exploration you've described. And. actually in all of our lives, we I think. apply time horizons. We say this part of. my career is going to be 5 years. and in. in those 5 years I want to achieve these. things. How do you think about setting. personal time horizons but also like. creative time horizons? One of the. things I talk about in the book is that. there are different um phases of. creativity. The first phase is the seed.

phase, then is the experimentation. phase, then is the crafting phase and. then is the finishing completion. editorial phase. And you can't set a. timeline. early in that process. In the seed. phase, you have to try a lot of things. and it's going to take as long as it. takes. And in the experimental phase, which is where you're taking the seeds. and seeing what they want to be, that. takes time. And then in the crafting.

phase, the third phase still takes time. because now you have the seed, you see. what it wants to be. You've given it. time to just state. You see how it. grows. And now in the crafting phase, the third phase, you start trimming it. and making it the way you see it. All of that has to happen before there's. any idea of a timeline because until. that time, you don't really know what. you're making. It's a dream. But once. you've gotten gone through these three. phases and you have this thing in front. of you, it may not be finished, but you.

see what it is. You see it and it's. good. You're excited about it. When I. say it's good, I mean it's good to me. That's it. That's where it ends. It's. good to me. I like it enough that I'm. willing to show it to you. If I like it. enough that I'm willing to show it to. you, I like it enough to show it to. everybody. >> People will hear this as creative. advice. I was hearing it as life advice. I was hearing the seed phase of my life, the experimentation phase of my life, the crafting phase.

>> It's the same. It's all the same. And. that's why the the creative act started. with this idea of how to make things. And it turned what I realized through. writing the book is it's how to be in. the world that that you you either live. your life to allow these things to. happen or you don't. And if you live. your life to allow these things to. happen, then you're an artist. Even if. you're a businessman or if you're a chef. or if you're a mother,

you're living your life as an artist. You're embodying it. and it's coming from you and it's I want. to say it's who you are. It's not who. you are, but it's who you are in that. moment. I'm showing you this beautiful. thing as a reflection of how I see the. world today. Now, tomorrow I may see the. world differently. That's fine. But when. I share it with you, this is the best it. can be in this moment. >> The reason I was asking this question.

about the um you know sometimes they the. world might not like what you give it. >> Yeah. >> Is because because of this word failure. which you talk about in the book as well. and how to deal with failure. I guess a. lot of the reason why people won't take. the risk to listen to themselves to what. they love is because of the word risk. And with that comes I might lose money. I might lose friends. If I quit this job. and pursue that violin hobby and go to. Peru and violin up in Peru, my I'm going. to lose friends. People are going to. think I'm strange. So I I'll conform.

Yeah. And I'm saying you have to do all. of those things. Lose the friends. Take. the risk. Now, I'm not I'm and and I'm. also saying. I'm not saying that for that 100% if you. go move to Peru and be the violinist, it's going to work. And you may want to. have an actual job to pay the bills. while you're doing that. That's okay. The idea that it all has to be one. thing. I have to do my dream thing and.

it has to be my prof. It has to be my. hobby, my love, my profession. The way I. support myself doesn't have to be. When. I started making music, I thought I was. going to have a real job and I'd make. music and it would be my hobby. I would. do it forever. I would do exactly what I. was doing. But I thought I would have a. real job to support myself to do these. things that I want to do. Luckily, I was. able to it it turned into its own thing. by nothing that I did. Had no.

expectation that that it could be a. profession. I had no it couldn't be. It. was a ridiculous idea. I did it because. I loved it. And while I was going to. school and while I was probably going to. go go to law school and I would have a. regular job, day job, and I would do. music as the love of my life. That's. what I would do. Luckily, I didn't have. to do that. But that's what would have. happened. A lot of people at that age. are told to follow their passion, find. their purpose, which sounds like this, you know, cuz the word passion is a.

singular word. And also the word find. means I have to go go out there and. actively pursue the thing. A lot of. people listening now would would say, you know, I've been told to find my. passion and when they look at their job. in the factory or wherever it might be, whatever they're doing, they go, okay, this isn't it yet, but I will get there. at some point later. >> Yeah. >> And I will jump. So you're saying don't. jump necessarily. There are realities of. life that you have to deal with. I'm not. saying ignore the fact that you get you. have to pay rent or or say I'm happy.

living in my parents house until until. it works. That's fine. I'm saying there. are realities of life that have to be. dealt with. Don't put the pressure of of. that on your art because then you won't. make the best decisions. You'll make. short-term decisions based on real world. issues that you have to deal with in. that moment that won't support the. long-term benefit of the work you're. doing, the real work you're doing. >> I'm sure you've sat there in those.

moments where you're trying to persuade. an artist to follow themselves and what. they No, >> I don't try to persuade anyone of. anything. >> Oh, really? Okay. >> I don't I wouldn't use that word. I. wouldn't use the word persuade. >> What word would you use? >> We talk about it. I I ask what are your. what do you hope to accomplish and then. I'd support that process. >> Can we role play? I pretend I'm an. artist who wants to write an album. So, >> okay. So, I am actually learning to DJ. I've been learning for like 4 years. >> What would you say to me? So, I can come. say Rick, I want to make an album.

>> What would the first questions be to me? >> Play me the of all the things you've. made, play me your favorites. Let's talk. about it. I would listen to it and then. we would talk about it. >> So, I play you uh let's say it's a a. house song. I play it. I said, "This is. my favorite.". >> I would tell you whatever I think about. it. Honestly, >> honestly, even if you thought it was. terrible. >> Yeah. I probably wouldn't say it in a in. a unpleasant way, but I would probably. ask more questions around it. Get ask. how, you know, explain to me what it is. that you like about it. How did you get.

to that? What equipment did you use? Was. it fun making it? Was it a good. experience? Have you played it for other. people? What's it like? What's the. experience like? What's the feeling you. get when you when you're making it? What's the feeling you get when you play. it for a friend? Have you ever played it. in a club? What's that like? I would. listen to what you say and then we would. talk about it. Often an artist will come. to me, they'll tell me exactly what they. want to do and then say, "I have no idea. what I want to do. Can you help me?". It's like they can't they can't hear.

themselves. There's a we we all have this barrier. between it's it's a little bit how. therapy works. If you go to see a. therapist, you might talk They might not. say anything, but through the talking. you start understanding. what you believe, what you think, what's. going on in your life. You might have. epiphies just because someone's. listening. Most people are not used to. being heard, really heard, deeply heard. Often you.

will say something to someone and. they're thinking about what they're. going to say next, like what what. they're they're not really hearing what. you're saying. And um I find if you really are there. and listen to what someone's saying, they tell you what they want to do and. then my job is to just help remove the. roadblocks that they're putting in the. way of themselves. to get there. And when they say what.

they want to do but then ask you what. they should do. >> Yeah. >> Is that a lack of sort of selfrust? What. what is. >> Yeah. Yes. But that lack of selfrust is. what is the condition of the world? That's what we're that's how we're. indoctrinated. We most people don't. trust themselves. And it's a fine line. because there are the few people who. might seem to really trust themselves. and you think, "Oh, they're. egoomaniacs." H usually when someone.

really comes off as wildly egotistical, it's usually hiding some insecurities. really. It's like a mask. So that's. dealing with someone who's insecure and. dealing with someone who's. overconfident. It's often two sides of. the same coin. And we're really looking. for this middle place of reality. It's. like not what you're afraid of about. yourself, but or what other people are. going to think, but where are you really.

on this? I often describe it as tasting. food. Like if I gave you two pieces of. pizza and say, "Taste the two pieces of. pizza. Tell me which one you like. better." It's not a hard question. You'll probably say, "I like this one. much better than this." And when I ask. you which tastes better, you wouldn't. say, "Well, I think this guy's going to. like this pizza better. You would say, "This one tastes better. to me.". That's the goal is getting to that, "This one tastes better to me." Simple.

We don't believe that it can be as. simple as it is. And it is simple. If you were um to bet on an artist being. one of these great artists that you've. worked with because they have a set of. characteristics or a perspective or a. humility that is conducive with what. you've seen results in exceptional work. What are those like similar attributes? As someone that does a lot of investing. in entrepreneurs, um I was wondering if.

there were similarities even there cuz. some of it sounded the same. >> I'm sure there are. Um, I asked a friend. of mine who is a venture capital guy. about when he's picking things to invest. in, is it the premise of the business or. is it the founder? And he said, it's. always the founder doesn't matter what. the business is. >> He said, if I believe in the person, >> I'll back them. >> Mhm. >> And.

I suppose it's it would be the same with. artists. just like it's it's the artists. not like well they wrote a great song. The great song is more like the great. product. It's like. maybe they could do that again. But if you see that the way that they. see music, the way that they innovate in. the things that they make, that's a good sign. Tell you a story. Uh, the band The Strokes. >> I produced their new album, just came.

out maybe a month ago, and they had. asked me to produce an album for them. maybe. I want to say 15 years ago, and I. listened to the demos, and I didn't hear. it. I didn't I didn't I'm not saying it. couldn't be good. I just didn't see the. way in. For me, it's like I don't think. I should do this. I don't I don't feel. it. And then they asked me another time. maybe 12 years ago and I listened to the. demos and I didn't hear it. I couldn't I.

just I don't see how to do it. So I. passed. >> I didn't see how to do it. Give me some. color on what that means. >> Yeah. It's like um when I hear something. and I know I can see a path. I can hear a thing. doesn't have to be. good, but I could hear something in it. of like I understand what this is and I. can I'm c I want to see what this can. become. >> I didn't feel that the first two times. And then on the first album we worked on.

together, which came out about 6 years. ago, they sent me demos again. They were. probably the worst demos they ever sent, but I could hear what it could be. And. some one of the demos might be a 20. second voice note. Whereas in the past. there were these produced demos of like. here's our great new songs. But in this. 202 voice note I could listen and think. I really want to hear this whole song. Whatever this is this seed of an idea.

This is going to be good. Has the. potential to really be good. >> How do you know? >> Feel it. There is no knowing. It's a. it's a it's a knowingness. It's like I. have a knowingness. I couldn't explain. it to you. It's uh an internal. experience. One of the things is again. you tend to want to lean forward, not. lean back. You tend to want to listen. again, not skip to the next one. It. generates curiosity. It generates.

interest. and I want to know more. Do you set. goals in your own life? >> None. You strike me as someone who has a. who is okay with uncertainty in a world. where most people need certainty in. order to take forward motion or take an. action in a direction. I know. uncertainty is real. I had a house in. Malibu that was my main house with all. of my possessions that 8 years ago. burned in a fire. And when that.

happened, you very quickly see like I. thought I would live there forever. When. that happened, I realized, hm, impermanence is real. >> I thought I was going to live there. forever. It's gone now. It's it's a lot. It's a a dirt lot. So, I I don't think that we can know. anything. We just kind of move along and. make decisions based on the information. we have at the time and life unfolds.

I guess an analogy would be satnav in. the car. You get in the car in the. morning, you, you know, put your seat. belt on, then you set your satnav and. say, "This is my goal. This is where I. want to go." And then you drive. So, you. put action towards that goal. What. you're saying sounds more like you just. drive. >> Yeah. All the time. Yeah. I used to do that. I remember um. It's funny you bring that up, but there. was a period of time. when I worked a lot in the recording. studio. a lot of hours, many sessions at.

sometimes I made eight albums a year and. I'd be working on different projects at. the same time and then I would have a. day off on the weekend and I wouldn't. make any plans but I would just drive. and just listen to music in the car and. drive and I might end up somewhere but I. might just drive for a couple of hours. and relax and it felt good. >> You might get lost though and that's the. risk. >> That's okay. >> That's why we have goals in our life. That's why we make a 5year plan, a New. Year's resolution. Yeah, I've never done. any of those things. Couldn't imagine.

it. Seems like a a terrible limitation. As good as it can be, I could never. imagine that. I would have much more ordinary. understanding of the world than what. what actually happens than seeing the. impossible become possible on a regular. basis. I certainly couldn't plan for. that. now because it's happened so much. in my life. I accept that's how it is.

and I'm on the ride. >> You accept the unknown and the. uncertainty. >> The unknown. >> Is that something that we can all do or. is that a privilege that you have now. that you're so successful in that. >> we limit ourselves in so many ways? I can remember a very successful artist. who was going through a really hard time. went out to dinner at this restaurant in. Malibu. I remember specifically what it. was. And I remember thinking this person.

might commit suicide. That's how I could. feel their energy was so. unbalanced. and so conflicted and they were. suffering. And I remember saying, you know, you. don't have to keep doing this. You know, you've done a lot of great things. You've had great success. You can afford. not to do this. And anytime you want to, you can say, you know what? I'm going to.

move to the other side of the world and. live on the beach and just eat good. food, play in the water. You're not. obligated to continue doing what you're. doing that's causing so much conflict in. your life. you've done enough. And. I found out years later, I didn't even. know that the person really heard what I. was saying cuz they were they were. really in a a hard place. But years later, that person said to me,

"Remember what you said? You said I. could go I could check out.". And he did. I He didn't do it in the way. that I imagined. I didn't know that. that's what happened, but he did that. I know several people who committed. suicide and I have one friend, a good. friend who. unsuccessfully tried to commit suicide. All of them when in those moments it's. like they feel like the choices I've.

made have me boxed in and there's no way. out. And when someone thinks that. the the the. inclination to commit suicide is the. person knows something needs to die. and they think the body needs to die. But in reality. that those choices that they made, that. lifestyle in that moment, that career. path, that.

relationship, that's what needs to die. and they can. go and start a whole new life. And we we don't see that. We we get very. locked in thinking this is all there is. and this is not all there is. This is. what we have chosen. and we're going along on this path and. at any time we say you know what I want. to do it all differently.

I want to start a whole new life in a. whole new way. And you and that doesn't. take a lot of money to do. It might take. less money to do because you can move to. somewhere in the world that costs. nothing to live, beautiful places where. people are happy. It's just a choice. It's almost like we're playing a game. It's a game of chess. You can get up and leave the table and. not play anymore and go on and play a. different game and have fun.

It's always available to us. You could press a button and it all goes. away. And it doesn't mean that you have. to die for that to happen. Just that. scenario has to stop and you go on find. a new one. I've seen a lot online again. about how to find your flow. That. feeling when everything just clicked, distractions disappear, and suddenly. you're operating at your very very best. But most of us treat flow like it's. something that just happens randomly. But when you're operating at the highest. level, you can't just leave that to.

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knowing what's worth building and what. good actually looks like. So, if you. want that kind of leverage in your. business, check out fiverr.com. That's. fiverr with two rs.com. A lot of the um the prison that I think. uh. I almost hear you sort of referring to. that we've kind of built that makes us. feel boxed in is our identity. >> This word identity. I am a lawyer in. Manhattan and a father and a and I took.

that identity. It's almost a bit of a. trade I made. I I accepted it which. meant that at cocktail parties people. were impressed by me. >> Yeah. And so, you know, we traded. something for something else and now. we're boxed in. And now a lot, you know, I hear a lot from our listeners on this. show like they feel stuck. >> Yeah. >> We're free. We're free. We just have to choose to. take advantage of this human gift of. freedom and we can start over.

I remember the one close friend who. tried to commit suicide and didn't. luckily lived. I went to visit him in. the hospital. He was laying in in a hospital bed and. he was seemingly catatonic. He hadn't. spoke since this happened. And I was. standing in the hallway. and there were a series of his friends. coming to see him. Everybody would go. into the room one at a time. And I.

listened to the two people who went in. before me and they were crying and they. were acting as if he had died. Now he's laying there. He's in fetal. position. He's not saying a word. And. I'm just thinking this this is really. weird. This is it's really the whole. scene is weird. Never seen anything like. it before. And my first thought was the people who. are going in there and talking to him, they have no idea how to act. None of us.

do because this is an unusual situ. unless you've been in it, which I hadn't. been before, you'd have no idea what to. do. But I knew from listening, this is not the best. What they're doing. is not the best situation. There's a. better way. And I was the next one in. And I went in and I looked down and I. said, again, I don't know where this came. from, but it came. I said, "This may be hard for you to see right.

now, but you're in the sweet spot.". And I remember saying that and he looked. at me and he looked at me like I was. insane. But it was the first re the first time. anyone the first thing he reacted to was. that. And I said, "You just hit the reset. button.". I said, "All of the things that you hate. to do, that you feel obligated to do, that you feel committed to do, that made.

you want to not be here anymore, you just hit the reset button. You never. have to do any of those things again. And now you can do anything you want. you're free to start. All of those old. ideas, none of those obligations are. hanging over your head. And we ended up. having a really nice conversation and he. got up and he got dressed and he was. like himself. It was an amazing an.

amazing experience. But that that's how. boxed in we feel. But it's all just a story. It's not. true. We are free. Is there a step one in that direction. for people that want to hit the reset. button? Is there a first step? >> Well, I would try to see what are the. things in your life that really you want. to change and then think about what's. the what's the cleanest way to change.

them, leaving a job, leaving a. relationship. You know the the reason these things. happen is we make commitments with good. intentions and then when it's hard to. keep the commitment is where it starts. feeling boxed in. Now I think. commitments are a good thing both to. make and to keep. That said there can be. a point where it becomes life and death. It's like this commitment that I made. was a mistake and it was and or.

something changed. Maybe the person that. I married became an alcoholic and it's. really hard living with an alcoholic and. it's not fun. This is not what we signed. up for and I can do everything I can to. help this person but maybe nothing works. and at some point it's okay to hit the. reset button and say you know what. you're not doing any favors if you're if. you're locked in a situation. I have a. lot of friends who are in relationships.

and maybe the relationship has gone. south but they stay in it because both. both sides of the couple feel like this. is the life we signed up for. and in reality you're not doing any. favors for the person being unhappy in a. relationship. It's the nature of love is. it's a two-way street or the same the. same I can say if someone is in love. with someone and the other person un. unrequited love the person's not in love.

with them there's no really such thing. because the nature of love is it's like. a negative and a positive magnet. pull pulling towards each other. You can't have one side of the magnet in. love. It doesn't work. And it's just a. fantasy of what you know, it's a it's a. beautiful fantasy of what you think like. as an optimist, it could be so. beautiful, but if it's not there,

it's best for everyone involved. Sometime I have some friends who feel. like, well, I don't want to break up. with them because it'll it'll um it'll. destroy them. It's not true. It's better. for everyone involved if it's not. working to find the new beautiful life. You can do that. It's okay. I imagine as. well there's some people who um have. lots of small misalignments. None of. them are are huge issues on their own, but now they have a life full of hundred.

small misaligned things. Could be. anything. Um and so their life feels. really fundamentally misaligned, but. it's actually just maybe they struggled. with honesty across many little areas of. their life. >> Yeah. And maybe those can be worked on. and maybe it can be fixed. But in either. case, don't let it just linger, you. know, repair them. It's hard. conversations there, Rick. >> Yeah. >> A lot of people aren't good at that. But, you know, people pleasers and. there's a through line here with. creativity generally. I think this idea. of like people pleasing, the difficult. conversation. And I've obviously seen. from some of the things you've mentioned.

through this conversation, like you. would be willing to tell people like. this isn't for me. I imagine you offered. a lot of money a lot of the time as. well. >> Yeah. How do you sort of pass through. that if you're offered a ton of money to. do something but at some level it's not. aligned with your principles or values. or. >> I want to make good things like I want. to make something good. >> Have you turned down large numbers of in. in terms of money or other incentives. because you didn't feel something was. going to be good or was aligned or.

>> Yeah, I'm sure I have. I can't think of. examples but I'm sure I have. I I I. don't think about the stuff like I think. about the things I do. I don't think. about things I don't do, you know. >> Does it matter to you the money part of. it? >> I want to be in success. I want to participate in the success. I. think that's right. That feels right to. me. I never make a decision. for a financial reason. That said, if we. make something successful,

that's valuable. >> And in your own life, and we're talking. there about mental health through your. early 30s, you had a depressive episode. yourself. >> Yeah. >> Was there a causal factor? And how how. important was that in shaping how you. think generally about the world and the. art and the creativity? Cuz I know it. I've heard you say on News Day that it. changed you permanently. >> It did. Take me into that part of your. life. You're 33 years old, my age. >> Yeah. >> What What happened?

>> What happened was I had been an only. child. My parents really loved me, really cared. about me, always supportive. I went to school. I started making music. as a hobby. It ended up taking on a life. of its own and becoming a business and. had great success for all those years. And then at 33 for the first time. it got called into question. I had a.

business relationship with a big. company. The person who I was in. relationship with was one of the. probably the top person in the whole. music industry. Well-loved, beautiful. person, one of my mentors. He got. politically forced out and a new person. was put in who I didn't have a. relationship with. And that person. called me and said, 'I read your I read. our agreement because he had adopted the. agreement that I had with my mentor. He's like, I don't like it. When you. come back to California, we should talk.

about it. That was it. That was the. whole conversation. Now, for me, I I. didn't I didn't know because I'd had. so much success for so long. I never I. never had to deal with any instability. in my life in that way. I felt like the. rug had been pulled out from under me. and I had a started having panic attacks. and couldn't sleep and got really sick. And again, for for almost anyone else,

the exact same scenario would have been, okay, we'll deal with it when I get. there, no problem, and move on. But I. didn't have the ability to deal with it. because I never had to deal with. anything like that. I didn't have the. musculature to deal with that issue. and it felt like the rug was pulled out. I didn't know what to do and sunk and. then it ended up going on for years. Even after the problem was solved, I. ended up leaving the company, starting a.

relationship with a new company. Everything was fine. But some it's like. it was like a a it was like I was a. balloon that got burst in that moment. And I'm still not the same person as I. was before. Now maybe now I'm more rooted in reality. which probably sounds funny after a lot. of the things I've been saying before. that I would say I never questioned. anything. It was just like everything. was always rolling in this one direction. and that was the first time that it was.

questioned and I. it sunk me and it took years to get out. of it. What I will say though is that because. of that, so many of the artists I work with deal. with a lot of personal issues. And. before that, before I was 33, I probably. didn't understand how they felt as much. as I do now because now I've had an. experience.

where I feel like the bottom fell out. I would say it has helped my. understanding of the artists I work. with. >> On your desert island discs, you said it. wasn't anything that I understood. I. thought I was dying. >> Yeah. >> The essence of this is a it was your. first sort of big professional, dare I. say, rejection. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I was wrapped up in that in who I was. and that questioned who I was.

for the first time. >> and you went to therapy. Yes. Went to. therapy and ended up uh using an. anti-depressant drug, which I tend not. to be a drug person, but it was bad. enough for long enough that that was the. final. it was the it was the last thing I was. seeing a different therapist, probably a. therapist or a healer, at least one, 5. days a week. And every time I would wake.

up and go and just thinking, maybe today. it's going to be better. Maybe today. it's going to be better. And it wasn't. better. It was really a tough time. >> What was what was going on under the. surface of this? Cuz it cuz on the. surface one would say Rick got a. professional rejection and it resulted. in him saying that he thought he was. dying. That's what we see on the. surface. >> Well, it was totally un it all was. happening on the unconscious level. Couldn't sleep,

>> was nauseous all the time. Didn't want. to get out of bed. It was like it it was. a I felt it in a physical way and didn't. want to do anything. >> What What is this? What What was that? >> Well, I've heard it described as like. being shot with a poison arrow in a in a. philosophical. or a psychological way. I was shot with. a poison arrow. >> Cuz I've I've looked at your um your. earliest years. I've looked at, you. know, two wonderful people there.

>> Yes. >> Your mom and your dad. >> Yes. Um, and sometimes, you know, when I. interview people that are anomalous in. some way, I find that their upbringing. had some sort of trauma and they they. had a chip on their shoulder. But with. you, I had very much the opposite that. you had two parents that really, really. loved you, >> really loved me, could do no wrong. But. that was part of what it was. It's like. I had been raised. believing I could do no wrong. And then in the real world making music, the success showed that I could do no.

wrong until someone decided, you know. what? I don't like I don't like what. you're doing. So, I just had no I just didn't have. context for it, no way to deal with it. Sounds like a horrific season of your. life. >> Yeah. Would you if there was um if there. was a button on the table now that would. allow you to erase it, would you press. it? I would not. >> Why? Um. I feel like every event that I've had in.

my life, positive and negative, has. brought me to where I am now. And. I wouldn't want to change a thing. I. wouldn't want to change. anything. >> What did it give you? >> It gave me a different perspective. Again, I think it it brought me down to. a more realistic view of the world. Still one who believes in magic and that. the impossible is possible on a daily. basis. But but before I might have felt. more like Superman and I don't feel like.

Superman anymore. >> What do you feel like? >> Uh tired. >> Tired. I am, you know, as as creatives. I want. to go back to this question I was asking. you earlier on about the similarities. you see in these great artists. I heard. on one end conviction and then I also. had humility which kind of seemed like. opposing forces. Is there anything else. that you see in the similarities between. the Jay-Z's, the Kanye's, the list of. people that you worked with is endless? >> It usually has to do with a point of.

view. Seeing the world in a way that. other people don't see. Now, maybe. something that everybody sees, but no. one has pointed out before. They notice the world in a different. way. It's what a great comedian does. Great comedian says something and you. laugh at it because you relate to what. he's saying. It's like, of course, it's. so funny. It's so ridiculous. That's. what we do. >> It's the same. It's it's seeing another. layer of what's possible. Understanding.

the world on a deeper level than we. think we see it. And with art, we get to. experience all these emotions. that are happening to someone else, but. because we're humans, they resonate and. we get to feel. You can hear a a song of. heartbreak. And you don't even have to. be heartbroken, but you feel you can. feel it. You can see a movie that can. really impact your life. And art has.

this incredible ability to um widen our. perspective and see things from. different angles that we couldn't see. before. >> Do great artists work hard? >> Very hard. And what does that mean? >> From the outside, you'd think. you check into the recording studio and. make something and put it out and then. you go on tour and everybody screams. It's a grueling job. Everything about it. is hard. It's wildly competitive, not.

because you're competing with other. people, but because a lot of people are. trying to do it. And and you can be. tremendously talented, but if you don't. have the work ethic to go with it, it's unlikely that anyone will ever hear. what you do. So, it's a this combination. of really diligent work ethic doing. whatever it takes and. some. interesting perspective, an interesting. point of view, an interesting view on.

the world that someone else looks at and. thinks, hm, I never saw it that way. before. Is there a way that you know to. make my perspective on the world more. interesting? >> It sounds like you spend a lot of time. looking at business and self-help. material. And I would say maybe. look outside look at the great things. outside of that area and see how they. rhyme or how they resonate or how they.

relate. Often we get great ideas from. something having nothing to do with what. we're actually interested in. >> We'll see some new thing. I would say. start going to museums. You know, go to. museums, look at the art, take the. walking tour with the headphones, listen. to the stories, read the great literature. When I say. the great literature, it's not one. single list, but if you ask around, you'll find out. And if three people.

recommend it, definitely read it. See the great movies. Ever. See the. great movies. The, you know, the. greatest movies of all time. It's funny. cuz when we're told how to become a good. insert occupation, we're told to go. study that occupation. Being a good. lawyer, go study law. But often times it. appears to be the case even with someone. like Steve Jobs that they have these. sort of rare things in their skill stack. like his love of design and typography. >> Mhm. No one at university would have. told him, "Okay, you want to be a great. computer programmer, go do typography.

design.". >> Yeah. Yeah. It's usually. what makes you good at what you do is. not that you do it the same as everybody. else. So if everyone is reading the same. books, they're going to have the same. perspective. >> I would go outside. I would also. recommend reading old books as opposed. to new books. Ancient wisdom is the. best. Start very old. I mean, I've got some books here. >> Yes.

Good choices. >> You're a fan of these books? >> I love these books. >> Why? What did they give you? >> I first read The Dao when I was I had. just moved to California. It's probably. 30 years ago. And. I read it and I felt like. this is different than anything I read. before. It speaks to me on so many levels. And. then I remember reading it something. like 6 months later and it was an. entirely different book. And it's the.

kind of book that every time you read it. at different points in your life, you'll. read an entirely different book. And. this was the inspiration for the way of. code. And the way of code is essentially. an adaptation of the Dao for vibe. coding. Often times books can be. summarized into a sort of a lesson. Is. there a lesson a central lesson that you. got from that book? >> Maybe I I would use one sentence like. that. The soft overcomes the hard. That.

would be a good that would be one things. that seem counterintuitive. that non-action is often the best. action. Now that seems crazy, but that really is where it's at. You. know, there's a story about Napoleon. that when someone would come to Napoleon. during all the waring stuff that was. going on, they would come with an. emergency. You know, you're the only one.

who can answer this. Here's the problem. It's an emergency. He would always say, "Bring it back to. me in two weeks.". And the idea was. 99% of the problems that need your. immediate attention in 2 weeks will. resolve themselves. And if it's still a. problem in 2 weeks, he'll deal with it. >> Might try that with my fiance. >> See how it goes. >> It's an interesting idea though that um.

what was that phrase you said? The soft. >> the soft overcomes the hard. >> The soft overcomes the hard. >> Yeah. That's like the idea of water. dripping on a rock that eventually the. water will eat through the rock slowly. dripping and the water's soft. The. water's totally. >> pliable, malleable, soft. >> And what about this book? Is there an. essence? Well, I like I like Carl Young, and this is probably his most mystical. book, but in general, his ideas of uh.

archetypes and looking into dreams and. synchronicity. are beautiful ideas, and I think that. they're. I think that they're really how the. world works. So, um, I find comfort in reading him because. it's different than what we're. shown in math and science, but maybe closer to how it really is. >> I'm going to have to ask you to. elaborate, especially on this point of.

you saying that synchronicity is. actually more so how the world works. >> Yeah, I think we don't know how anything. really works. I think the world is much bigger and. more interesting. than we give it credit for. And most of the things that we think we. understand. maybe are not so accurate. Like the one. of the things about science is that. science is the understanding of how.

things are now until the next scientific. breakthrough comes and negates. everything that was before it. It's like. this ongoing. interest and I think maybe there's an. inner knowingness like we don't know why. you meet somebody and you really want to. spend time with them. I don't think that. science can explain that and you meet. someone else and you feel like you know. what I don't want to be around this. person. There's something going on. energetically here that's not for me.

I think that that's the kind of wisdom. that probably has more impact on our. lives than anything that you can uh any. data can show us. >> I was thinking about how believing what. you've just said might change my life. >> Yes, it would. >> In what ways do you think it might. change my life? It's like you would take. the shackles off of feeling like it has. to be this narrow way or thinking well.

if these numbers look like this then it. means this and this is what's going to. happen when in reality you know many. times you've looked at the numbers and. then acted accordingly and then 3 years. later realized hm didn't really work out. the way I thought. that's the real world like that's one. way of looking at things you know the. money ball approach is one way. And then. the other way is when you met your wife. and you felt like I want to be with her.

That's different. There weren't any. metrics you could use to calculate. whether that was a good idea or not. >> It's like an invitation to trust. ourselves more as well because you're. talking about energetic feeling and. >> and doing things that would make. trusting yourself make more sense. >> That's the other part of it. It's like. if you spend so much time not trusting. yourself, then that antenna to be able to tell. what's going on might be a little rusty.

>> So, anything you can do to start. using the antenna as often as possible. and letting it dictate you. There was a. time when I was surprised by the. miracles that I would see and now I'm. not surprised. It's still surprising, but it happens enough where it's like, "Yeah, that's what happens. Look at. that. Can't predict it. Can't bet on it. But when it happens, like it seemed like. that's what was going to happen.

Happened. Look at that. And do you think there is a higher force. taking actions on our lives or. >> I think there's a higher intellig. creative intelligence that. I'll say lives the world like the thing. that. allows plants to grow. There's some. generative force. I don't know that it's like aiming.

particularly at you or me, but there's. some energy that like life wants to live. and you can ride. Same like catching a. wave, you know? You can. you can catch the wave. The wave is. there. There's a lot of waves beyond the. ones in the ocean. >> and you can ride those waves. You can't. always see them, but you might be able. to feel them. you might be able to. over time you start to recognize them.

and for some reason it seems like the. universe wants us to know about this. It's what I talked about paying. attention and about the um the way of. code like it was a ridiculous thing. It. was indefensible. But I listened to this. feeling. was coming from a lot of sources. Didn't make sense to me, but it felt like, hm, I'm being asked to. do something here. What could it be? Let. me try to participate.

>> What I hear from a lot of what you're. saying is um it's making me think about. how like rationality as an idea, being. rational, >> yeah, >> can be a bit of a curse. I would. consider myself to be quite a rational. person. I would say rationality is. overrated. The rational world is very. small. There's much more there are much. more interesting things going on than. the rational world. Yes, that's what exactly what my fiance. would say to me. What she has been. saying to me. I think I think we we go.

together. Funny enough, you're talking. about plus and minuses because she is. someone that helps me break outside of. rationality. >> Yes. And when when she when she speaks. to me about these ideas she has about. these you know bigger ideas she has I. always listen very intently although at. some level I am I guess rebuttling them. >> but do you see how they impact her life? Do you see what they do to her? >> Yeah. >> Does it feel like it raises her. vibration like. >> 100%. >> Yeah. It's like there there's. >> that counts you know the way she feels.

that counts. her vibe. Yeah. >> One of the um. >> enough for you to want to be around her. all the time. >> I feel like I'm Yeah. leeching off that. vibe to some degree sometimes. >> What you talked about higher. intelligence and you talked about uh a. generative force which is the perfect. segue into the big subject of the moment. which is artificial intelligence. Kind. of links to what you're saying about. vibe coding as well. for the first time. ever. I was saying yesterday I I got a. message from my f one of my friends who.

isn't involved in technology saying like. I'm concerned. I don't know what this. technology is. Is it going to take our. jobs? I'm concerned. And that for me was. the bat signal that that that this is. really getting down to everyday people. This week there was a anthropic. researcher um who also worked at a uh. chat GBT open AI say he thinks it might. be uh the the end of the human race or. at least there's a more than 10% chance. of that. AI is a broad subject. Sure. You've got. lots of thoughts on it.

>> Yeah, I'd think it's a it's a wildly. powerful tool. and I'm curious to see what it can do. Like any powerful tool, it could be. really dangerous. It could be used for. bad or it could be used for good. Fire burned down my house. I wouldn't. say we should ban fire. Fire cooks our. food. Does some good stuff. Heats our. heats our houses. It's one of these. things. It's like the internet changed. the world. It does some really good. things. Probably does some really bad.

things. It's very powerful. The printing press. when it came along, the church tried to. ban the printing press. They didn't want. that. They didn't want books to be able. to they didn't want information to be. able to be for everybody. Good came from. that and probably some bad. >> Can it be creative? >> I don't know. I'm curious. I I don't. know. I feel like everything we've. talked about today about what creativity. is has to do with point of view.

>> And AI doesn't have a point of view. AI is uh. the collected ideas that already exist. It doesn't have it doesn't see it from a. particular angle. And if you ask it the. same question. several times or several days in a row, it may give you very different answer. day after day. So it's not like it has. this is how it sees the world. >> If I asked an AI to make 10 million.

different tracks, >> Yeah. Would it theoretically it would at. some point make a hit even though it. doesn't have a a point of view per se? >> Yeah, I wouldn't I wouldn't. It's hard. for me to say what a hit even is, >> but I would say. >> it could make 10,000 tracks and you. might like one or two of them or you may. like 5% of them. You might. And that's. interesting. And I could see like there. was a time when we would sample records. when we were doing hip-hop records. It. was called crate digging where you'd.

go to record stores, find old records, listen to them all the way through and. find one little part. It's like, ah, this little breakbe beat, let's use that. and make a new song out of it and and. you change the context, make something. new. So, if AI was playing music. constantly in the background and then. all of a sudden I heard a little clip, oh, that's a good sample. We can make. that into something. >> that would be a use. I I I I think the. idea of it doing the end to end of. replacing the artist, I don't think it I.

I I can't imagine it doing that. I'd be. curious to see if it could, but I think. what we want from an artist has to do. with point of view. And I see AI maybe. is a tool that could help the artist and. maybe even help the person who doesn't. know they're an artist be an artist. So, I can't draw. I can't play any. instruments. I don't have any talent. I. have no way to express my creativity. But I could talk to the AI and maybe I. could prompt the AI into making.

something beautiful through iteration. and prompting. So maybe more people will. get to be creative using AI. And I think. that's a beautiful thing. This is such a. recurring debate. You'll hear it. probably on every panel everywhere at. the moment, which is can AI be creative? And I've thought a lot about like I've. sort of tried to interrogate the. question itself because you first sort. of need to define what creativity is and. then I think what people are saying is. when they think of creativity they. actually think of good creativity that. sold well or that was number one. So.

often times I remember one of my friends. was saying to me the other day um I. don't think AI could ever make and then. he like named a great song. >> AI could never make that. And even when. I look at that great song, what's making. him think it was great creativity in in. hindsight was actually as you use the. word end to end an end to end process of. having the meeting with MTV, building up. distribution and reputation. Maybe. people being following that artist's. life and therefore that being part of. the point of view. People have followed. Olivia Dean. So when she makes music,

something else comes with that. A story. comes with that. Olivia Dean signed to a. record label. So maybe there's some. support there that's done. And in. hindsight we go amazing creativity. But. what we're actually saying is there was. this long process which resulted in this. me experiencing this thing and so I. consider it creative. Now AI might like. I was trying to think like okay AI could. help with be the tool that you describe. >> But isn't the whole process part of what. we look back on and say that was great. creativity.

I would say the whole process. I I also. think it's even beyond the process. Like. the things that we make. are the reminders that we're creative. They're just the output. The real. creativity is. the idea that allows this thing to be. made. If you look at Alfred Hitchcock, his movies, he works out his whole movie. in advance and he storyboards the whole.

movie. And if you look at the. storyboard, he doesn't even really need. to make the movie. The whole thing is. there just in drawings. Exactly. Frame. by frame, the whole movie is there. Wes. Anderson makes his movie frame by frame. in advance before there are actors. So. he could watch the whole movie. um like a a mock a mockup of the movie. and then with the actors is where he. executes the idea. And I think AI is a.

could be a great tool to like assist in. this mocking up, >> but it's the prompt. The prompt is where. the creativity is. The prompt is what Wes is using and what. Alfred Hitchcock is using to tell the. the artist what to draw in each frame. The creativity is there. It's not in the. drawing. It's not in the finished movie.

It's in the prompt. Mhm. >> So the I feel like. now using prompts anyone can prompt and. you can get better at prompting. through experimentation. So someone who thinks of themselves as. not not creative, the idea of learning. how to prompt, it's pretty easy. It's really like the barrier of entry is. very low.

and I think that's a good thing. In a world where the barrier of entry is. so low to creating, what what becomes the distinction? What. makes a great artist from a a not so. great great artist? >> Well, the same thing now. It's the same. thing as now. Like the the reason you. love the artist you love is they make. something that changes your life, moves. you. You want to listen to it a million. times. You want to see the movie over. and over again. You want to read you. want to read their books.

I don't know if it. if the AI itself could write the book. that you want to read over and over. again. I don't know if that's a problem. If that happens, I don't see any. indication that that's going to happen. >> But more good art doesn't seem like a. bad thing. me and uh my uh business partner out. there, Georgia Gibson. We were on. Spotify and we um listened to this song.

We really liked it. And about 2 months. later, I figured out it was AI. The only. reason I figured out it was AI was. because I went to get more from the. artist. As I clicked through, I realized. it was AI. And then the other thing that. happened around the time is there was. these two songs from this uh Spotify. artist, I guess, and one of them. disappeared. And so I that's when I went. on Google and was looking like what what. happened to that song and it turns out. it was an AI artist. Something. interesting happened when I realized I. was listening to an AI song. >> What happened? >> I didn't like it as much anymore.

>> Interesting. And so when I think about again. creativity, I wonder if there is a sort. of an irreplaceably human element. because it resonated with me because. there was this story that it came from. this woman who was singing and she was. talking about this subject and it meant. something to her and then when I found. out it was none of that it the song lost. something. If you think about Andy. Warhol's art, Andy Warhol started as a commercial um.

illustrator. He would draw shoes for. advertising, let's say. And then he came. up with what essentially now what we. call pop art. And pop art was. a brillow box or a soup a Campbell soup. can. And maybe the first Campbell soup. cans, he drew them and painted them. Those were the first ones. But then over. time he did a series of images that were. screen printed. So like Elvis, Marilyn. Monroe, really famous the most famous.

Andy Warhol images. He never painted. anything. He never touched anything. He said, "We're going to use this shot. of of Marilyn and we're going to treat. it in this way." and he prompted the the. people in the studio to screen print. these things. And they're not less Andy Warhol. The art's always in the idiation. That's.

where the art is. It's not who put the. paint on the canvas. There was a time even even going back to. the um the Renaissance so many of the. painters had studios and you'd see. Rembrandt and Rembrandt might have. painted. 70% he might have painted 30% of that. painting but it was his vision for the. painting and he would have the guys in. the studio you guys do this not sure if.

Rembrandt's the best example of this but. could be that it was it's a normal thing. that artists who had studios would have. other people, other painters, disciples. who would do a lot of the work. Happens now in the studio. So many. records, you'll hear a it can be a band, but then the band isn't playing on the. record. Studio musicians are playing on. the record. It's normal. It's just part of the. process, but doesn't make it less good. It's just a different thing. It's fine.

It's the idiation is where it comes. from. And I don't know that the AI's. idiation. is interesting to anyone. We'll see. >> I always think with like the F1, um, if. they removed Lewis Hamilton from the. car, I wouldn't watch the F1 anymore, even if the cars drove faster and beat. their times because there's something in. me watching a human being experience. those emotions of competition and anger.

And you know, you can kind of see by the. way they're driving how they're feeling. And you can relate to that. I felt like. that in work once. >> Yeah. Yeah. It does seem less. interesting if it was just a car, automated car doing it. >> So what what has been removed. is kind of I guess what I experienced. with that Spotify song I was talking. about is like res human relatability and. resonance and me too and connection. >> But it's interesting that you liked it. before you knew. >> And that's interest, you know, that's. interesting to me. And I wonder,

would I. be against something because of the way. it was made? This doesn't make sense to. me. You either like it or you don't. >> It's We're living in interesting times. >> Absolutely. >> You used the word miracles earlier on, which I found to be an interesting word. >> Yeah. And I wondered if you had. experienced miracles through the. creative process of working with great. artists.

>> all the time. >> What are those? Is there a miracle you. could share? >> Uh there's a a brother song called um. No Hard Feelings and they were playing. it in the studio and it was okay. It was. fine. Wasn't great. They played it a few. times and then finally they played it. one time and again I don't even remember. if we even said do anything different. It might have been just try it again. You know, that could have been that. nothing changed. And for some reason,

while they were playing it, it was like. time stopped. and this incredible thing happened. I. don't know why. No one involved knew why. or how. But after I I remember about a minute. into the song, I remember thinking. it there's this feeling it's scary. because it's really good. We don't know. how or why. I hope they can get to the end of the. song because if they don't get to the.

end of the song, we don't have it and we. maybe we can never get back to this. That's what it's like. It's like so as. soon as you realize in the process if. you happen to realize okay something. shifted something magic is happening now. sometimes you don't know it right away. sometimes you know it after I've made an. album with Neil Young where we recorded. for a week. it was not good. the band it sounded like the band not.

only couldn't play the songs but would. never be able to play the songs that was. a feeling in the first week. And at the end of the first week, Neil. said to me after he's like, "Don't. worry, next week's going to be better. We're going to they're going to be able. to do it." It's like, "Okay, okay.". Like, I'm. nothing showed me that, but let's go. I. I'll listen. And then the next week, Neil said to Ralph, the drummer, he's. like, "Uh, okay, let's play whatever the. third song again." And Ralph's like, "Well, we already did that last week.".

And he was like, "Oh, let's maybe we. could beat it." And R's like, "No, I. really think we got it.". And now last week we thought not only. did we not get it, but that we may never. get it. And then we try playing it. again. It is no better. And then Ralph. says, "Put back. Put on the one from. last week." And he puts on the one from. last week. And he says, "Well, turn down. the um turn down the bass a little bit. Maybe turn the piano up." And we listen.

to it again. And. it seemed like it still had problems, but the magic was there. kind of a it had a lot of mistakes, but. forgetting the mistakes, the feeling, the feeling was there. And then our job. was just like. doing little bits of repairs here and.

there or a little ducking a sound or. featuring a sound or adding another. vocal or doing little things and turned. almost the whole album turned out to be. recorded that first week when it seemed. like it would never happen. So that would that felt like a miracle. The question that's front of mind when. you talk about these moments where great. art was created, everybody wants to know. how to make it repeatable. How do we. repeat that process? >> Yeah. It's not none of this is. repeatable. Ah, >> no. The thing that's repeatable is you.

show up and you keep going till it's. great. Whatever it takes. That's the. thing. It's like and sometimes you. listen back like you'll make a demo or. you'll do a little sketch and you think. this is this is a great idea. This is. beautiful. Now I'm going to make a big. painting. and you work on the painting. for months and months and months, it. never really comes together. >> But then you look back at that original. drawing that you made in five minutes. like, you know, that's actually it. happened on the first album I made with. Johnny Cash. We recorded all these songs.

in my living room of him singing and. playing guitar. We weren't recording for an album. We. were recording. It was the way that we got to know each. other. I asked him to play me all of his. favorite songs, songs he like remembered. from growing up. Uh songs that mean a. lot to him. Or I might say, "Can you try. playing this song? Let's just see what. it sounds like." More like trying to. understand what sounded good when he. sang it. We were doing this exploration. And we did that with the idea of we're.

going to test a hundred songs this way. and then maybe we'll find 10. And the 10. that we like best, we'll go into the. studio with a band and we'll record. them. And we did that and recorded with. a great band and it was interesting but. it wasn't better. And then we did it. again with a different band. Same thing. wasn't better. It's like I guess those. recordings from the living room which we. had no thoughts of ever anybody ever. hearing. they have something that the real.

recordings don't have. >> And we ended up putting out those. So, but again that we didn't go into the. process to do that. We discovered it. through the process. And sometimes it's. the opposite way where you make you have. a clear vision of what it's going to be. and you do it all the way and it it. tells you through that process. It wants. to be this entire other thing. >> It wants to be. >> It wants to be. >> You're saying that as if it's got a mind.

of its own. >> It does. Hm. Well, it I'm only saying it does because. it shows you. no what you think is wrong. Try it like. this. You're sort of personifying. You're sort. of. >> Yeah, I'm personifying. It doesn't say. it in words, but it's clear. The. indicators are clear. What we get back. is, hm, we thought it was supposed to be. this fast. When we listen to it, it's. clearly much too fast. We have to play.

it slower. We thought it was going to be. a loud electric song. Turns out it wants. to be a really quiet song. We didn't. know that. Has there been a time where you thought. something was just the most amazing. thing ever and then when it went out. into the world, the world didn't. subjectively think it was amazing. >> For sure. It probably happens often. And. how do you rationalize that on the basis. of. >> as soon as I decide that I like it. enough to share with the world, I'm.

done. I move on to the next thing. I. can't the what anyone else thinks. doesn't really impact it. It's fun when. people like it. I love it when people. like it. But that's total bonus. The. real work is I like this enough to put. it out into the world. My name's on the. back of the record. The artist's name's. on the front. They like it enough to put. it out. I like it enough to put it out. Here you go. What's next?

>> And what comes of that you're treating. like none of your business. >> Correct. Cuz anything that I think of past that. is going to totally undermine the. creative process. The creative process. is a pure. uh delicate process. to be protected. And if you're thinking about what. happens next totally undermines it, the.

house of cards crumbles. When we're working in the studio and. something starts sounding good and. someone, one of the artists might say, "This sounds like it could be a single.". It's like, "We're not talking about. that. That has nothing to do with what. we're doing. >> What are you doing? >> Making the best thing we can make. We We're making the best thing we can. make. And I always used this I always. thought of it as greatness. Like we're. working towards greatness, timeless. greatness. Didn't know what it meant. And more recently, I came to realize.

we're making it as an offering to God. And if we're making it as an offering to. God, things like the numbers, that's much that's insignificant. This is we're doing our best as an. offering. There's nothing deeper than that. There's no metric that competes with. that. I didn't always know that, but it was. always the same.

Was. there a point when you realized that? >> Yeah, a few years ago. And it felt good when I realized it. It. was like, ah, of course, you know, 35 years in like, oh, >> do you remember the moment? >> I have a vague memory. I don't remember. the specifics. I remember I was sitting. on a lifeguard chair in Hawaii and um. and I remember thinking about it there, but I don't know if that's the moment. where it struck me, but I remember it.

was like it was a total epiphany even. though it was only, you know, for me. It didn't apply to anything. else. It was just like I realized. what I've been doing all this time. without understanding it. It just became. clear. It's like ah that's what it is. Yeah, it was a great it was a great. feeling of like now it all makes more. sense.

>> Do you mean in the literal sense? You. think that you are making offerings for. a higher power? Very literally. >> I'm saying God. >> and God defined as the higher power. >> We can call him the father. >> Okay. And you're liter So So the art you. make, the music you you make, he is. actually the customer in some respects. >> No, because it's a gift. So he's not. it's not a customer. He's the. beneficiary, but he's not the customer.

And it's like a I want to I want to. show you my best. out of love and thanks, gratitude. Here's the best I can do. That's what it is. This is my best. If anybody else likes it, great. But if. not, we're good.

Does he ever give feedback? I want to say that when other people. like it, I might I might take that as a. good sign, but I don't know. I I don't. really think about it, but I feel like. when a lot of people like it, it's like. the energy of it is positive all the way. around. Interesting to think about, fun to think. about. >> Do you think that's why we're here? Cuz. I'm now trying to figure out why there. would be such relationship with God.

where we were offering gifts and how. that links to our maybe higher purpose. >> Well, I think we're here to show who we. are. We're here to self-express. I am here. I'm here to tell you this is. me. This is how I see the world. And to. say to you, show me who you are. Tell me. how you see the world. And the way we. make sense of it is we discuss that. And. we may, in some areas, we may line up. In some cases, we may differ. But that's. how we figure it out. And everything we. do is this is how I see the world. And.

then other people say, "I never saw it. that way, but yes, I'm on board with that." And other. people are like, "No, that's not for. me." And that's fine. But we are here. Our purpose is to. self-express. through several different means through. any different way any self-expression. comes in a lot of in a lot of forms.

But the best version, it's never because. they did it this way. That's not. self-expression. Copying the They were successful and I'm. copying them. That's not. self-expression. That's a different game. That's not what we're here for. You can. do it. It's fine. It's fine. But I don't. think that's why we're here. >> I sat with a someone who is an expert on. consciousness. He's a physicist who. just, you know, is very spiritual. One. of the things he said to me which has.

really stayed with me is he was positing. that potentially consciousness itself is. God has divided consciousness into lots. of little pieces into my French bulldog. Pablo into Rick into someone in China. and he set us all off to go and explore. and understand the world and by doing so. consciousness is seeking to understand. itself. very strange idea. And then I. went to I think Malta and I was driving. down the road in Malta and I looked and. I saw these tourists and with that idea. in mind that consciousness has divided.

itself to go and understand itself into. these pieces into a fish so we can go. check the bottom of the ocean. I saw. these tourists and they were all just. looking up at this mountain. >> Mhm. >> And like with in the abstract that's it. looks like a very strange thing that. we're like fascinated by the novel. And. so I started to think maybe that is. true. Maybe this thing called. consciousness is this exploration to. understand. itself and it's turned some. consciousness has gone into Rick and. Rick is experimenting and creating to. understand and to and kind of what you. were saying there reminded me of it cuz.

sounded like you were talking about. consciousness itself and the. self-exression of consciousness. So. >> it could be. it's a beautiful idea. >> Strange idea, isn't it? Not. >> not strange to me. >> Not strange to you. Okay. >> Not at all. Nothing. Nothing is. >> Nothing is off the table. >> Nothing's off the table. >> One of um one of the great artists. you've uh you've worked with, we talked. about is um is Jay-Z. >> Yes. >> And you have this wonderful eight-part. documentary. >> Yes. >> Coming out with Jay-Z, which I was.

fascinated enough to uh what I found. fascinating to watch. It's out on the. 18th of September. And one of the clips. that I watched from it just had us run. down. is the story of um this brand. >> Ah yes, Ace of Spades. I found it really. fascinating the story that Jay-Z told. about this brand Ace of Spades um for. many reasons, but it also it rhymes with. some of the things you're saying about. integrity and how you feel and his.

decision to. um abandon another brand and at a cost. at a near-term cost against his. near-term incentives and pursue. launching his own. >> Yes. And what's interesting what what's. most interesting about that story and. it's not we don't make a lot of it. It's. just a passing remark but what happened. was he decided not to support. a company going forward.

>> Crystal. >> yes which he had made very popular in. the hip-hop community. He was the first. person to drink it. Nobody knew what it. was. He talked about it in in records, in songs, and it became a very popular. drink in the hip-hop community. And the person who ran Crystal said some. disparaging remarks about it, about. hip-hop people drinking Crystal. >> I can't get them to stop drinking it. >> Yeah. And Jay was insulted, rightly so.

And he said, "You know what? No more. I. won't do that anymore." Now, he that. didn't happen and then he thought, I'm. going to go start my own. That's not. what happened. That happened and almost. immediately. someone came to him and said, I'm. thinking about starting this brand. Do. you want to do it with me? And all they had was the bottle. Which. he loved the shape of the bottle and he. loved that it was a gold bottle.

And. it's like the universe allowed. first he gets this negative comment he. reacts following his belief stood for. what he believed in. >> removed it from his clubs. >> Yes. And this new opportunity that he. was not looking for. arrives. and it's like you couldn't write the. story. I mean, you could write the. story, but it seems almost unbelievable.

the way it happened, but that's how it. really happened. And that's again like. the miraculous nature of Jay did the. right thing and in response for doing. the right thing, he ended up owning a champagne brand. >> Do you believe that's how the universe. is working? >> Yes, >> I know it. I know it. >> Is that karma? What is that? >> Well, that's part it. You could call it. that. It's like there there's a lot of. there's a lot of names. There's a lot of.

labels, but you can call it karma. >> When he took that action, he wasn't. thinking about how he might benefit. Not at all. All he knew was these guys. are insulting this movement and I'm not. going to have anything to do with them. anymore after I was telling everybody. this is the best stuff. They insult us. They're we crossing them off. They're. not for us anymore. We will not give. them our business.

He wasn't thinking about starting a. business. He was he wasn't thinking. about that at all. But it became a great business. >> It became a great business. But it's. it's the universe filled the void. This. is another thing we could talk about. It's an interesting idea. You're in a you're dating someone. you think maybe this is not this is not. right for the long term. but you're going along with it and then.

you think well maybe I'll meet someone. while this is happening and then if I. like that person more then I'll get out. of this relationship for that. relationship and switch a lot of people. do this I feel like it's not the way I. don't I don't think that's the way it. works I think. when you know that something isn't. working and you end it and you create. that vacuum. You create that space, the good thing that you're looking for. can come in to fill it. Jay wasn't.

looking in this case, he wasn't looking. for a good thing to fill it, but he did. create a vacuum in his life. There's a. thing that he's out there representing. And now he decides based on their. action, I'm not going to represent this. anymore. And the universe steps in and. says, you know what? you were doing a. good job representing that thing. How about representing one for yourself. that you can feel good about. representing? >> It's funny what you were saying there um.

about creating a vacuum. We in culture. like generally in society we celebrate. starting. So like you know you start a. new job, you start a new thing but. obviously from what you've just said. logically. you can't really start anything big in. life without first doing something which. none of us really glamorize actually. it's the opposite. We say never quit. Don't quit. Yeah, >> but that is the necessary first step to. starting to starting a brand which in. Jay-Z's case went on to be worth 630. million at the time when he sold his. stake. Um, we have a weird relationship.

with quitting. We need certainty. I need. the branch. >> Yeah. No, I think that's it's an empowering. thing. It's like taking control. I just. had a conversation about this recently. with someone who's a. very high up person in a very high-tech. company who is um who's decided to step. down and he's stepping down for the. right reasons. and he's concerned that people the. perception will be he's being fired that.

that'll be the outside world but he's. really stepping down because he doesn't. like what's going on there and usually. people don't leave jobs at that level. M. >> so it's an interesting it's an. interesting moment in time when that. when that happens. >> similar to what you were saying about. getting artists to step outside of their. genre to quit their genre. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> This is something that I've made for. you. I realize that the dire audience. are strivvers whether it's in business.

or health. We all have big goals that we. want to accomplish. And one of the. things I've learned is that when you aim. at the big big big goal, it can feel. incredibly psychologically uncomfortable. because it's kind of like being stood at. the foot of Mount Everest and looking. upwards. The way to accomplish your. goals is by breaking them down into tiny. small steps. And we call this in our. team the 1%. And actually this. philosophy is highly responsible for. much of our success here. So, what we've. done so that you at home can accomplish.

any big goal that you have is we've made. these 1% diaries and we released these. last year and they all sold out. So, I. asked my team over and over again to. bring the diaries back, but also to. introduce some new colors and to make. some minor tweaks to the diary. So, now. we have a better range for you. So, if. you have a big goal in mind and you need. a framework and a process and some. motivation, then I highly recommend you. get one of these diaries before they all. sell out once again. And you can get. yours at the diary.com.

And if you want the link, the link is in. the description below. There should be a. button just down below here. And if it. says subscribed, you're already. subscribed. If it says subscriber, that. means you're not yet. And if you're not. subscribed, please could you do us a. favor and hit that button? It helps the. show more than you know. And according. to the algorithm, you're someone that. watches our show, but you haven't yet. hit that button. Thank you so much. I. hear you used to make music with one of. these things here. I've never used that. particular device, but it looks. beautiful. >> You know, if I came to you, Rick, and I.

went, I love that. >> Yeah. >> And clearly, I mean, objectively, it. wasn't great. >> I don't know. could be great. >> if but if I if I was like Rick. >> I want to put that out. >> Do you really believe it's great? If you. really believe it's great I support you. putting it out. >> Really? >> If you really believe it's great. Yes. >> Would you interrogate? >> You're giving me this hypothetical with. like what if this thing that's bad if I.

tell you I think it's great. It's like. you don't believe it's great. I trust when you tell me I really love. this thing. I want to play it for. people. I support that. >> Even if you don't, it doesn't matter if. you. >> doesn't matter. And if I don't like it, I'll say you might want to try these. things. But I always support somebody who makes. something that they love. That's. beautiful for the world. >> Is there an example of that with artists. you've worked with where they presented. you with something and you didn't really.

get it, you didn't feel it? You didn't. like it. They put it out and it was a. huge success for them but also for the. audience. >> I can think of one but I don't really. want to talk about it but yes I could. think of one. It it has happened. >> Is there anything you can tell me about. it without identifying what the song was. or the person was? >> Um. I was working with an artist and there. were lots of good songs and there was. one song that I felt like this one. doesn't fit with all the rest. M it.

feels like it doesn't go with the others. and um the artist chose to include that. one and it ended up becoming a big hit. wasn't the first single but it did. become a big hit. and. it's anytime I give my opinion this. isn't this is a really interesting idea. this idea of I'm asked how do I have the. confidence.

cuz when I say I don't like something, I. really mean it. It's like, well, how. could you have the confidence that it's. not good? It's like, well, I have the. confidence that I don't like the pizza. >> It It doesn't mean more than that. You. know, it ends I was asked to produce. Guns and Roses's first album and I. turned them down because I went to see. him live, played in a little club in a. basement, maybe 30 people there, and. they were they were a hair band at the. time with makeup and stuff and I just. looked like I don't really get it.

Now, they went on to become Guns and. Roses. It's good that I didn't work with them. because if I would have worked with. them, it might have turned into. something different than what they did. without me. >> Mhm. >> So, it wasn't the right it wasn't the. right fit. Um, do you know what I'm saying? It's like, >> yeah, >> it's. >> I'm honest about what I see and it's. true, but it's only true for me.

I'm wondering if you can be at the. inverse of that if you can be a great. creative and never be commercially. successful ever. Absolutely. For sure. For sure. Probably more often than not. That's. probably the. That's probably regular. because becoming successful has so much. to do with other things beyond being. talented. M. >> like the talent is a piece but then the.

stars have to align like for for. anything to break through and get. successful. So many things have to go right so many. totally out of your control. You must have worked with a lot of. artists where you thought I know this. person is so talented. >> Yeah. >> Um but for whatever reason they they. just didn't. >> Yeah. It happens. the world wasn't. It. happens. And that also could be a karmic.

thing like there could be maybe for some. reason this person as good as they are. that's not their path on this life. Maybe success is not part of their life. path. Who knows? That's a it's a different. that's a different question. You know, >> you co-founded Death Jam when you were a. very young young man. I think you were. 21 years old when you co-ounded Death. Jam. And then. >> through that process, you you got to. meet, you know, some incredible people.

I've got some of the albums that you. produced around that time and published. Um, but one of those people through. throughout your career and then. thereafter was Jay-Z. What was special. about Jay? Jay wrote in a way that no one else. wrote. All the other rappers that I. worked with spent a lot of time writing. lyrics. And I never saw Jay write. lyrics. And when I got to work with him, I got. to see him not physically write lyrics. And when I played him the beat for 99.

Problems, he said, "Okay, just keep looping it. Keep playing it over and over again.". And he sat in the back of the room. And. it went on long enough that I almost. forgot that he was there because I was. talking to the engineer and song's just. playing over and over. And he's silent. in the back. On occasion, you could hear. him mumbling or humming. And then after 20 or 30 minutes, he's. like, "Okay, I got it." Ran into the. other room and did the first verse. totally the whole thing. No, nothing was.

written. Just. he just remembered it. And he did it. He. did several takes. And each of the takes. the words were the same, but the cadence. was different. Like almost as if a. saxoponist was playing a solo. And you. you know how the solo goes, but every. time you play it, you play a little. different. >> Mhm. >> That's what it was like. Like it had. emphasis in different places and the. cadence was a little different and one. word might be featured in one version.

whereas in the next version that word. just kind of went by less important. Um. and then so he did let's say three takes. and then he came in, he'd listen to him. He's like, "Oh yeah, I think the second. one's good." And then he's like, "Okay, keep playing it and I'll" and he sat. back down and he did the same thing. again about another half hour later. He's like, "Let's do the next one till. he was ready." So he just it just. happens in his mind. >> What is that? Is that taste? Is that. >> I don't know. It's a it's a real and.

unusual skill set. Very unusual. I don't. know how he how he can remember cuz it's. complicated. It's not like in a rock. song there might be four lines in a. verse. pretty easy to remember. But rap. songs have a lot of words and it's. complicated. But so that was that was the first thing. that really I would say separated him. from everyone else from me is that his. process was totally different than. anyone else I ever worked with. >> Which is interesting cuz other people. might arrive at the same outcome but. take a different journey there. They.

might, you know, write lots of things. down and. >> Yeah. >> So there's not a correct process. No, there's ne with all of these things that. aren't there's never a right way. What what works for one person doesn't. mean it works for someone else. And. that's one of the real dangers of. getting advice from people is someone. tells you, I wrote it this way and it. was really successful, so this is how. you have to do it. >> But that's not true. That it might work,

but that might be the way that it works. for that guy, not you. M. >> so always be wary when getting advice. because again people give you advice. with the best intentions but they're. giving you advice based on their story. not your story. So where do we get advice from? >> I would say listening to a lot of stuff. It depends on what what the sub like. what where we're what what medium we're. working in. But I would swim deeply in.

that medium, whatever it is, and then really listen to what's going. on in you. It it has to do with you, how you see it. It's an internal um it's an internal. compass that tells you where to go. And I'll also say there may not only be. one answer. There may not even be a. right answer. And that's where it really. comes down to like this internal feeling.

of I would take as I would hear as much. information from as many people as. possible hopefully conflicting. and then really check in and take as. much time as it takes to internally get. to a point of where you know what you. know what the right answer is. You know. what the right answer for you is. M. >> there is no right answer but you know. what the right answer for you is.

and that's what you always want to get. to what is the right answer for me how. do I know. >> you'll know it and if you don't know it. you don't have enough there's not enough. you haven't done enough research yet. because you it has to come from you it. has to come from you of. I've gotten to the point I've done. enough homework. of conflicting information. where I can listen to myself and I feel. good about it.

>> One of the ways um that that noise that. voice inside of us gets conflicted is we. have our parents. I I know your story. I. know your parents, you know, they kind. of thought maybe you'd be a doctor, but. you didn't like needles. So, they were. like, "Okay, he can be a lawyer." A lot. of people say they have that voice, my. parents. and and it's sometimes hard to. untangle what voices me and my wishes. >> versus external. >> Yes. >> I remember when I first went to college. and moved out of my parents house, it.

took me probably a year. to understand. what in my head was me and what in my. head was them. I was definitely confused. but had to create that space or lucky. enough to create that space to to allow. it to happen. Again, I didn't go to. college for that to happen. But in. college, being outside of the house,

I started to understand. who I was and who they were and where we. were aligned and where we saw the world. differently. And it was fine, but it. took time because I didn't know that. I. didn't know that. If you ask a lot of. people who they want to be or in your. case in music, you know, what what music. they want to make or what their goal is, they will say things that they don't. realize have come from somewhere else. >> Yes. >> Happens a lot in my life. I'll I'll. interview someone. I'll say, "What do.

you want to be?" And they'll say. something just arbitrary and big and. fancy. >> And then often times when you like ask. >> more questions, there's nothing behind. it. >> So they got it from Instagram or they. got it from their parents. How how how. can we cultivate a better understanding. of um of our own truth? It's like when I. played you that bad song, you started. trying to you went in search of truth. How can I How can I know? How can I pass. out what is me and my alignment and what. is inherited from somewhere else? I I as.

I said before, I think you need to find. some practices that ground you in. yourself. Meditation is a great one. I'm. sure there are others, but you have to get in touch with you. with you. Maybe therapy works for some. people. Well, you got to get to where who you. are. >> It's a it's a it's a big job. It's a big. job. And it's not it's not a quick. There's no quick fix. I remember the. first time I ever.

was in a talk therapy session. I. remember not knowing how to talk. I. didn't know how I felt about anything. I didn't know how to talk. I didn't know. about my inner state at all. And only. through repetition and doing it over. time and you start understanding. So. it's just another skill set to develop. I never looked inward. Even with all the. years of meditation, I never looked. inward. >> Are you there now?

>> I think so. >> Do you know who you are? >> I think I don't know that I could. explain it, but I feel like I feel like. I am. uh grounded in myself and I feel it. pretty clearly. What's the difference between when you. weren't and now that you are? Is it a. feeling or is it is there a symptom? Is. it happiness? I would say there's more of a No, there. was happiness there, too. So, it's it's. not happiness. There was happiness in.

in the time that I didn't know who I. was. I probably didn't know why, but I I. remember being happy. Um, it's not happiness. Yeah, I think I come back to the word. knowingness just like. you feel it. When you ask me something, I can tell. you how I feel. I can tell you how I see.

it. I don't know if I was able to do. that before. >> I'm talking about when I was young. I I. don't know if I could do that. >> Are you telling me. >> I still like the things I liked. My. taste was still my taste, but I don't. think I could um. I don't know that I could access it as. well as I can now. >> Is happiness a goal to aim for? >> Well, I like happiness. I I don't think. it's a goal, but but I I definitely.

would rather be happy than not. Joyful. is beautiful. Um I I I think maybe the. word is peace. Getting to a point of. cuz peace like resting in peace. seems like a really good state. And I guess when things get if things. get too high, there's always the other. side,

you know, >> like even if if I if I find myself in a. really great mood, which does happen. sometimes, >> sometimes the next day I'm just in a bad. mood. And it almost feels like it's a. it's a maybe it's a chemical thing. Maybe if you burn if you really use the. feel-good chemicals, maybe there's a deficit the next day. I. don't know. I don't know how it works, but it feels like if everything's cool. and if that keeps going, I like that. An.

artist that is uh very familiar with the. highs and the lows, one of my favorite. artists is is Kanye. And you've worked. with Kanye. I I want to ask the same. question about what made him different, what makes him brilliant in your point. of view. He's um. I've said this to him. I'm totally fearless when it comes to. art. He's totally fearless always. He's. fearless in life. I'm not fearless in. life. I'm a good collaborator for him at.

when it comes to art because I am. fearless at art and not everybody is. But he's always fearless and it's um. it's really something to behold. Great strength. It's rare to have that many um successes. when you're taking such big risk. That's. what fascinates me about him. >> Yeah. I don't agree with that. >> really. No, no, no, no. I I think the. risk and the success go hand in hand.

It's only through the risk that the. greatness is shown. So it's not possible to sort of produce. more of the same and still be considered. a great. I don't think so. I don't know. It It doesn't seem right. to me. It feels like there's this edge. There's a tight rope and you're walking. on the tight rope and if you make it, it's really good. And if you don't make. it, it's not so good. But the only.

choice is the tightroppe. >> The risk. >> Yeah. >> And then you will achieve greatness. >> Well, if you if you make it, yes. If you. make it, yes. But that's the risk. And. it's the risk that I. I wholeheartedly support. Wholeheartedly. >> Why? >> Because that's where it's at. Like. that's if the goal is to make the be. most beautiful thing you can and to.

self-express in the purest way. It's a razor's edge walk. There's nothing ordinary about it. It's. beyond ordinary. There's nothing normal about it. Normal. is nothing to aspire to. Average is nothing to aspire to. If you're looking for greatness, sometimes eggs get broken. But that's.

just but that's what comes with it. That's how it works. Are we all cut out for greatness? Cuz it. comes with a cost. And walking tight. ropes is not for everybody. >> Yeah. I think we all have potential. And. when I say greatness, it's like we all. have potential to be the greatest. version of ourselves. You know, we we can be you can be the. best version of you. I don't know what that is compared to. other people who are great at other. things. You know, I I'm it doesn't mean you'll.

be the best F1 driver, but your light can shine brighter than. anyone else doing what you do. And I'm. into that. I support that. I want to see. that. >> With these great people, this big list. of people that I have in front of me. that you've worked with, I mean, it's. just this endless endless almost. unbelievable list. Everybody from like. Justin Timberlake to the Red Hot Chili. Peppers to helping I mean Kanye on his.

the record Runaway, which is one of the. most incredible records of all time to. um we've talked about Jay-Z and System. of a Down and AC/DC and MC Jagger and I. mean there's a endless list. When I look. at it, I go, "Were these people all. great?". >> Yes. >> And were they great from birth or or is. are they ordinary people that made a. decision? >> They're I would say they're ordinary. people who made a decision. Maybe some. of them had some particular gifts. Um but others were ordinary and.

cultivated a gift. That list, they're. not special. They're not the only ones. like that, but they really. rode that wave. I think of Eminem as a. good example. Eminem is someone who's. always writing. He's always writing. because he wants to be able, he wants to. be the best he could possibly be, and. he's insanely obsessive about that. So, his entire life is focused on sitting in.

a notepad writing all day and all night. It's all he does. That's what makes him him. >> Even if he's not publishing an album or. >> doesn't matter. It's not he's not writing. I asked him. one point looking at his notebooks. He's. like, "Is all this going to, you know, is are all these?" He's like, "No, no, no. 99% of this stuff no one will ever. see. I just want to be good. I want to. I'm practicing. I'm I want to get better.

at what I do." He's in training always. If you think of it like an athlete, you. know, there are athletes who there are. some athletes who train in the offseason. and there are some who don't. And the. ones who train in the offseason are. usually better and usually have a longer. career. It's like that. When we sat. down, you asked me a question. You said, um, you said, "Stephen, you you're doing. this podcast. Have the guests changed. you?" And much of what I've shown here. is how you've changed people's lives. through being a coach or a producer or. however you might define that. My.

question to you is, can you give me a. couple of example of artists that for. whatever reason fundamentally changed. you? >> Yeah. The first one I I'll say is Johnny. Cash. >> Johnny Cash. Um because I got to spend. time around someone who was so. humble and quiet and smart and didn't. offer much. Like like if you didn't if. you didn't draw him out, he wouldn't say. anything.

But anything you asked him about, he. knew about and had a really incredible. point of view. But he wasn't um. he didn't have a need to let you know. that. >> it was all going on inside and he was a. beautiful spiritual person and I loved. him and I feel like. my life was really improved getting to. spend so much time with someone so so. inspiring. That's one.

>> What is the um emotion there? >> Where's. >> There was some emotion there. >> Yeah. Yeah. He's beautiful man. Beautiful man. Next one would be um Tom Petty who was. he was the ultimate craftsman. So in the. Beatles you have John and Paul and John. was more of a raw nerve who.

tore his chest open and led with his. heart and then Paul was more of a almost. like a. a savant of music like like a crafts. person. Paul could take anything and. make it good. John was like a raw nerve who could just. show his soul and they're two very. different skills and together that's.

what makes it the Beatles. Also the fact. that George and Ring are incredible. I. mean even with you know even as great as. as Paul and John are, it's only the. Beatles when it's the four of them. Paul is the craftsman. Paul knows all. the parts. Paul knows how to put it. together. He was the only one of the. Beatles who knew how to do that other. than George Martin whose job was to do. that. But Paul understood that side of.

it. Tom Petty was like Paul. He could do he. could play anything. He saw all ways around it. He knew how. to make it. And in addition to that was a great. songwriter. So he had kind of what was. great about John and Paul both in him. So being around him was really. inspiring. Also as a record producer I. learned a lot from.

getting to work with him. I offered a. outside perspective. I was younger. different. So I I brought something to. the table, but I learned a tremendous. amount because at the time that I worked. with him, I had only worked with artists. who had, you know, made their first. albums, like new artists. And he was a. very established, brilliant studio recording artist. So I. got to learn a lot working with him. >> What did he teach you? if there had to.

just be one lesson you pulled out. >> One of the things he talked about was. everything always had to be in time and. in tune. You have to understand every. word of the vocals. Seems like an obvious thing, but so many. records you can't understand every word. And he would listen back and he's like, "Ah, this word is supposed to be plural. and you can't hear the s. I have to. re-record it or I have to maybe we could. punch in the S because if you can't. understand it, it loses something in. translation. You have to understand.

every word. Um so timing, tune, um. he also was another person who would. work forever on it until it was right. He would he would he was not at all. lazy. He would never want it to be done. The first album we worked on together. was called Wild Flowers. And I think we. probably worked on it, not every day, but we worked on it over 2 years, probably 2 and 1/2 years. It's a long.

time for an album at that point in time. especially. It was a long time, but. there was no hurry. It was just like, oh, we're making progress. Let's keep. going. Let's keep going. Let's keep. going. And um so I learned a lot from. him also about patience. >> Some might say that's perfectionism. And. people think of perfectionism as a form. of procrastination. And yeah, there was. no procrastination in it. And I've been. around both. Like I've been around. procrastinating artists, too. It's a. whole different thing. >> How do you know? How do you know if. you're a perfectionist or a. procrastinator? Is there a symptom?

>> Yeah. The the real proc the real. procrastinators get to the point usually. has to do with. being afraid to put it out into the. world. So there are some artists I know, famous artists, you you know who they. are, who haven't put out album, haven't. put out an album for 10 years. I think. the longer you wait, the harder it gets. in general. >> Why. the pressure like the longer you wait,

the more it feels like it can never live. up to what the expectation is. It's a difficult position to get into. And the perfectionist, their reason for delay is not to do with. fear. It's to do with something else. Is. that what you're saying? Hard to know. Hard to know. I don't know. Yeah. I don't know. So, those are two artists that you've. mentioned that changed you, Johnny and.

um Tom. Is there any others that front. of mind? >> Let me see. Adele, >> she's really good. >> I mean, she's amazing. She's like myth. I feel like everything she does is. great. When she sings, everything stops. And she can do it over. and over again. And it's always great. It's not like some singers work for a. long time singing a bunch takes piecing. them together to get the good one.

She'll sing a song 30 times in a row and. it'll be great 30 times. Might not be. the same 30 times, but it'll always be. great. >> You produced um her 21 album, >> worked on songs on there, >> some of that. >> Did you know she was great when you met. her? Was there something that made her. distinctive from these other great. artists? at a time when most pop artists. at that time didn't write their own. songs. She was more like a throwback to the 70s.

singer songwriters. So, there was something about her. I. also got to work with Shakira, who also. writes her own songs, and there's. something about those pop artists who. write their own songs that it's. different than someone who can just. deliver a song well. Um, so I feel like it's a little bit of. an anomaly in a pop world where so much. of it is more I want to say. manufactured, meaning a bunch of people. work on the song and then the singer. sings the song. >> Mhm. >> Adele, a key piece is that it always.

comes from her and you can feel that in. the songs and it's more personal and I. love that. >> You can feel it. I've seen her live as. well. feels like this the first time. she's ever sung the song when you we. experience her life. Rick, what is the. most important thing we haven't talked. about that we shouldn't talked about. should have talked about as it relates. to creativity and the art of making. great things or good things or whatever. the measurement stick might be.

>> I think we've kind of covered it. The. the the main idea really is don't listen. to what anyone tells you. Be true to yourself. Work hard. Never give up. Don't quit. and just keep going and and don't put. undue pressure on your art. Find a way. to live that doesn't put pressure on. your art so that you could be totally. free in the things that you're making.

for them to be the dream version. And. hopefully at some point. the dream version takes over and it. becomes your whole life, not just your. passion. Why did you make this documentary with. Jay-Z? >> Well, I had made a documentary with Paul. McCartney a few years ago that was six. episodes. And the reason for that one. was. there were no I never I never saw any. documentaries about either Paul or the.

Beatles about musicianship. They were. always about either the songwriting or. about Beatlemania. And I thought without the musicianship. there wouldn't be Beatle Mania. And yes, you need Yes, the songs you couldn't. deliver the songs without the. musicianship. So, I thought there was. this big void in the in the story of. Paul if you were to make a list of the. best bass players of all time. Paul. belongs at number one, but most people. wouldn't even put him on the list.

because you don't think of him as a bass. player. You think of him as Beetle Paul. >> Mhm. And I just thought there was an. opportunity to um shed light on. something that I love. And. through I thought that was going to be a. more traditional documentary, but it. turned into a different kind of. documentary. Happened by itself. Wasn't. pre-planned. Turned into this interesting thing that. was different than anything else that. had been made with Paul or about the. Beatles. And people liked it.

It felt like a dream for me to be part. of it. And after that happened, I was. thinking about who else is I want to say. misunderstood because that that's kind. of what it is. Like. yes, Paul's great and everyone knows. Paul's great, but people don't think of. him as a great musician. They think of. him as something else. >> Mhm. >> And I started thinking about Jay-Z. >> Why? >> Because Jay-Z is thought of today as. this incredible businessman. And he's uh.

you think of him as billionaire. businessman. um behind the scenes genius. married to a famous singer. Most of what we think about him isn't. poet. That's not the first thing you. think of. And even the people who like Jay-Z might. not really know the depth of the.

writing. And I thought it's an. interesting story. Like the lyrics are. really intricate and really difficult. and it's astounding what he does and. he's famous but and and that's the. reason he's famous but nobody knows it. People see him in a different light. So. I thought shedding light on the poet, the lyricist, the artistry of Jay-Z was. a really interesting thing. And luckily. I shared the idea with him and when he.

when I told him the idea he said. he said I like it a lot. I'm not going. to say yes because if I say yes we're. going to make it and I don't know so. I'll let you know. He said okay. And. then we didn't talk it about again for. probably a year. And then. I called a friend of his and I said you. know I shared this idea with Jay a year. ago. but we haven't discussed it since.

What do you think? He's like, call him. and ask him. I said, I feel like I. already told him the idea. Don't you. think he should just call and ask tell. me he wants to do it? He's like, if you. don't call him, it's not going to. happen. He's like, just call him and ask. him. And he'll and he'll either say yes. or no, but at least you could ask him. It's still I heard that that was good. information given to me of what to do. And I probably didn't call for 6 months, 8 months, just cuz like felt. uncomfortable, really discussed it.

And eventually, I can't remember if it. happened in a call or if I ran into him. or if I went to see him. Can't remember. But the next time we talked about, he's. like, "Yeah, let's do it." I said, "Okay." Then we did this. >> It's stunning. It's stunning, I think, because it's different. So different in. a way that's quite surprising. And um so. a couple of observations I had is things. are usually shot in a certain way. It. felt like you had again once again.

abandoned the rules of how to shoot. something like that. Even like the color. the the color grading the like sort of. black and white um color grade that I. saw on the screen. And then some of the. angles were a bit off. I'm like that's. not how you shoot an interview. But for. some reason, it felt like I was spying. on a personal conversation. >> That's what it was. It was a deeply. personal conversation. And. in all the years of seeing interviews.

with Jay-Z, he doesn't do so many, but. the ones that you've seen, >> he's never like that. >> Yeah. >> He's never like that. So, and this is. really who he is. Like you really after. you watch this, you'll really know who. Jay-Z is, which is incredible. It's an. incredible privilege to have that point. of view of a real intimate view into. someone so great. >> Clearly, he felt very safe with you as. well because you do get that real side. of Jay-Z that I think is really rare.

Um, speaking of incredible things, this. book is also an incredible thing. I know. that in part because so many of my. guests have come here and talked about. it. Really? Oh, so many of them. and so. many people hold it up as their favorite. book on creativity. I think because it's. challenging. Uh I think which is the. essence of Rick Rubin in some respects. is to be a challenging coach. This book. I think finds itself being the same. which is a very challenging coach. So I. think it came out in 2023. I'm going to. link it below for anyone that hasn't got. it. If you haven't got it, I think it. might be the challenge you need. And I.

don't necessarily think it's a book. necessarily about creativity. It's it's. really just I consider it to be a. philosophy book. Dare I say. >> Yeah. >> Tarot cards. Some people noticed I think. that you have is it 73. >> 78. >> 78. we call them chapters. >> areas of thought. >> areas of thought in this book and that. tarot cards have 78. >> Yes. >> Is there a link? >> There is and there isn't. I'll tell you. the link and it's a pretty funny story.

Originally there were I want to say 60. I think there were 63 areas of thought. when I first thought of areas of thought. and giving them names. There was this period where the book. wasn't separated into the ideas and it. was just a lot of pages of ideas. >> and then. tried to move them after years of. unsuccessful. um organizational methods.

got to the point again through a lot of. failed experiments and some successful. experiments. moved from. 1400 pages into. a little bit of a shape with the when. the areas of thought came to be. And there were I I say I think there. were 63. I have them they're handwritten. and I I have a photograph of them in my. phone. The original 63 areas of thought. And then once we separated all the ideas.

into the 63, there ended up being more. And I think there ended up being. something like 80. 82 or 83 84. They were in the 80s. And. then the book was done and there were. 80s something of them. And I have a. collaborator named Neil who is a friend. of mine who lived in my neighborhood, great writer who wanted it who was. helped me from the beginning although. not in an official capacity until the. end. He he was involved the whole way. and I was working with another another.

writer and it just didn't work out. And. then we got to the point where there. were these 83 or 84 areas of thought and. it was all done and everybody was happy. And I remember calling my friend Neil. and saying, "Okay, book's done. We have. 83 areas of thought. I'd rather it be 78.". He's like, "What are you talking about? What do you mean?" I said, "Well, I want. it to be related to something. The tarot cards are 78.

If we had 103, I would say let's make it. 108 to get it up to 108 because that's. another There are certain numbers that. are good numbers. 78, 108, 144 is a good one. It's some good. numbers. I want it to have a reference. to something else in the world of a. number. And he and he's like, >> why? >> That's just that's how I feel. That's. how I want it.

And I remember him saying, he's like, "You're insane." He's like, "You've been. working on this book for 8 years. Now you want it to be randomly 78. instead of 83. It's good. Be happy. It's. good. Be done." I said, "How? We have to. get it figure out how to get make it. 78.". >> Why? Just a feeling. So listen, what. happens next? I have an assistant at. that time named Dylan. And.

we work on the 83 sections. independently. So they're almost like. separate essays. And when we would work. on it, we would work on let's work on. 37, whatever it is, whatever the title. is, and just work on that section. We. would work on each section. independently. And I said, "Okay, put them all here's. the order. Put them all in order." And. he put them in order. And the next day. came you were in Italy. I remember this. is the day after the conversation with. Neil where he told me I was crazy and he.

said it's the weirdest thing. I put them. in order and there were 78 sections. I. said no there were 83 yesterday. He's. like now there's 78. I said where are the others? He said. there are no others. That happened. So, did somebody miscount or something. or. >> don't know, nobody knows. But we were. sure they were 80s something and it. turned and I wanted it to be 78 and the.

next day there were 78 and nobody did. anything. Someday you're going to Neil's going to. find four chapters and not mention it. Maybe or maybe you call excited like I. told you you were crazy. Rick, we have a. closing tradition where the last guest. leaves a question for the next guest not. knowing who they're leaving it for. If you could make a phone call and you. had 60 seconds to call anybody and it. had to be an apology, who would you call. and what would you say and why?

It's a hard question for me to answer. for several reasons. One, I almost never. make a phone call and I'm not really a. phone person. >> So, the only reason I would call. somebody would it would have to be some. sort of an emergency situation. And I feel like. there are not a lot of outstanding. apologies to make. >> What about a thank you?

>> A thank you would be great. I could call. anyone and thank them. >> If you could only make one last phone. call to say thank you. >> A one last phone call. I would probably. call Moodielle, my wife, and just thank. her for being in my life. and maybe. either her or my child to just thank. them for. bringing so much light into my life. >> How did that change you?

>> It's It's different. Totally different. Um. it's beautiful being in a relationship. We travel as a pack. We go everywhere. together. We've We've never been apart, I don't think. I think maybe in the 15. years that I've been with my wife, we've. maybe spent three nights apart. >> in 15 years, something like that. >> And. we're.

everything we do, we travel together. This this is a long time that I'm away. from them. So, I'm looking forward to. getting back with them. >> and becoming a father. >> It's just so much fun. He I I get to see. the world in uh. I get to see the things that he's. excited about that remind me of things I. was excited about. And. I get to show him things that I like and. sometimes he likes them and sometimes he.

says things that I I can imagine how he. how he knows them. There's a real wisdom. that's uh it's baffling. It's just fun. >> You talk in the book about how children. are the great reminder of what, you. know, creativity might be at at its. essence. >> Yeah. >> Before we it up. >> Yeah. And it's the it's the thing is. that when you're a little kid, you. haven't yet no one has told you what you.

can and can't do yet, how the world. works. You really look at things with. wonder. And that's the perspective of a great. artist. They're they're walking around. in wonder, in awe of things that maybe. seem ordinary to everyone else, but the. the world is filled with just incredible. beauty. It's breathtaking. It's. breathtaking. People are amazing. Talk.

to anyone. It's interesting. People are interesting. if you just slow down and really listen. >> Rick, thank you. Thank you for the. inspiration and the wisdom and for being. a challenge and coach to many millions. of creatives all around the world and. being fearlessly yourself. Um, this is a. fantastic book. I'm going to link it. below for everyone that hasn't yet read. it. But also the HBO documentary with. Jay-Z, the eight part documentary we. referenced is out now on HBO. Um, comes.

out on September 18th. So, if you're. watching us after that, it's already. out. Um, thank you, Rick. >> My pleasure. It's on movie in the rest. of the world. >> Rick, thank you. >> My pleasure. >> YouTube have this new crazy algorithm. where they know exactly what video you. would like to watch next based on AI and. all of your viewing behavior. And the. algorithm says that this video is the. perfect video for you. It's different. for everybody looking right now. Check. this video out and I bet you you might. love.