Productivity Expert: How To Finally Stay Productive: Ali Abdaal | E93

Ali Abdal. He's a creator, he's a. entrepreneur who came first at. Cambridge, and he's a productivity. expert. The way that I define. productivity is just kind of using my. time well and working on things that are. meaningful to me and optimizing for. happiness. I feel unproductive when I. know there is something I want to do and. I am not doing the thing. because I'm scrolling Instagram. Procrastination is a problem with. getting started and so the key to. overcoming procrastination is that. little nudge at the start towards. actually getting started. There are a. few few hacks. The one that I use all.

the time is the the two-minute rule. Two. minutes is all you need to change your. life. The way I try and remind myself of this. point of I I am enough is thinking and. and really trying to internalize that. the journey is more important than the. destination. We do need a destination, but really like am I enjoying myself. day-to-day and am I kind of living the. dream as it were day-to-day and not and. not so much worrying about the goal at. the end of it. [Music].

Productivity, procrastination, two. things that all people aspiring to. success or really aspiring to get. anything done often struggle with. Today, we're going to try and solve that. problem. Today, I'm joined by Ali Abdal. He's a creator on YouTube, he's got. millions and millions of subscribers. He's an entrepreneur, he's a Cambridge. graduate who came first at Cambridge, and he's a productivity expert. And. honestly, he's read more books than.

anyone I think I've ever met on the. subject but generally about how to. become the best version of yourself. This conversation isn't just about. productivity and procrastination, it. ends up twisting and turning through a. bunch of different topics like. relationships and friendships and the. meaning of life and happiness. But what else would you expect from this. podcast? You're going to enjoy this. conversation. Ali is an incredibly. intelligent, intellectual, compassionate, self-aware individual and. he's able to talk in a way that.

simplifies complex ideas for people like. me and you. So without further ado, my name is Steven Bartlett and this is. The Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening. But if you are, then please keep this to. yourself. [Music]. I really start here with all my guests. because I think it's so foundation. foundational to everything that they. then say thereafter is getting a bit of. context as to who you are, where you.

came from, and the environment in which. Ali was created. Ooh, interesting. question. Okay, so. um I was born in Karachi in Pakistan in. 1994, so I'm 27 now. And when I was 2 years old, my mom and. dad divorced and my mom moved us to. Lesotho in Southern Africa. Uh it's a country most people haven't. heard of. It's surrounded by South. Africa, like landlocked by South Africa. And we were there for about 5 6 years. growing up.

Uh at that point, you know, my mom. really valued education. She was working. as a doctor and she knew the educational. opportunities in Southern Africa in. Lesotho were not great. And so we made a. plan to move to the UK. So we came to. the UK in 2003. She started working here. as a doctor and we moved around a little. bit in different areas in the UK. And it was really in in secondary school. uh that I did in Southend-on-Sea, Essex, where I discovered kind of. entrepreneurship and the internet and. computers and stuff. And basically all throughout school, I'd.

be the kid getting like decent grades. and everything like that, but the thing. I like I would. I would look forward to going home so. that I could do some more coding or. tinker on some websites or try and show. my services as a freelance graphic. designer or something for $5 here and. there. And I was making kind of you know, a. little bit of money. I I lied about my. age on PayPal. I pretended I was 18 when. I was actually like 13 and I was getting. like $5 from these small businesses here. and there and thinking, "Oh my god, I'm. I'm making money on the internet. This. is incredible.".

And then as I went through school, me. and my friends, we were all quite. interested in the entrepreneurship. stuff. We were all we were doing like. well in school and I was like, "Oh, it. would be cool to go to Oxford or. Cambridge. It would be cool to do. medicine.". But really my passion at the time was. going home and and and tinkering with. websites. And so that was kind of the environment. that I grew up in. Then when I went to. university, you know, thankfully I got a. place for medicine at Cambridge, which. was great, awesome experience. Just on. that point there, so you you were. tinkering on websites and loving it. That's the thing you were like running. home from school to do.

Yeah. Um but then you go for medicine. What was the driving force behind you. deciding not to do the tinkering on. websites for a living and going and. doing medicine? I mean, I you said there. that your mother was a doctor. Yeah, so. I think when you grow up in the sort of. environment that I did whereby. parents are doctors, all of my mom's. friends were doctors, everyone we knew. had like doctor parents, there are so few viable careers where. you think, you know, what what are my. what are my job options in life? Well, it's either doctor or lawyer or. engineer. Like it's literally just those. three. You don't even realize that other. jobs even exist. Not in like a.

a way where the parents are telling you. this consciously, but more like just the. narrative that you absorb from the. people you're around is that I could be. a doctor or engineer or a lawyer. Uh and so that was always in the back of. my mind that oh, it would be cool to be. a doctor one day. And when I was around 16, I Can I ask. why? Yeah. I think because. doctor seemed like a prestigious thing. And I think I I I remember even when I. was like 6 and 7 when people used to ask. me what I would want to be when I was. older, I used to say either a.

neurosurgeon or a gastroenterologist, not even knowing what that meant, but it. was just like a big word that would make. me feel cool that oh, yeah. And then the. adults that I would speak to would be. like, "Oh, hello. Fancy.". So that in and of itself, where does. prestige exist? One would assume that it. exists in the mind of others. Like do you know what I mean? Like so. that's why I was I if you had said to. me, "I really want to save people's. lives. I would really had a real high. desire to like save lives and to do. that." Then I'd be like, "Okay, that's. the voice inside." But when when it's. like status, then it's.

very much status and prestige. And. that's the thing that I think about to. this day. a lot about like now that I've taken a. break from medicine. You know, often if I'm if I'm having. conversations with my mom, the she'll. try and talk me back into doing medicine. again. Really? And one of her kind of. bargaining chips on that front is, "Oh, but think about the prestige. You know, medicine has a certain prestige around. it that being a YouTuber doesn't." And. that's always like, "Ooh." You know, it's that that side of me that's like, "Well, I want to carve my own path. I.

don't I don't care about status and. status and prestige." And then there's. the other half where it's still like a. kind of a narrative going through my. life that I need to optimize for pres-. like this sort of old world prestige. Instead of happiness. Instead of. happiness, yeah. Which is bizarre, isn't. it? It's completely bizarre. Yeah, this is a. I was strange like cult It's a cultural. thing as well largely, I think with I. think with you know, my mom dropped out. of school when she was 7 years old. So. doctor, lawyer, anything with prestige. was the correct answer.

Yeah. Um. maybe that's because and this is me just. guessing out loud, when you come from. when you're an immigrant family, one of the actual biggest predictors of. hap- happiness was financial security. And being a doctor like I said is like. maybe Yeah, I think I think that's a big. part of it where with my with our with. our parents' generation, especially. especially as immigrants, seeing other people who are happy. correlated with other people who had.

like a big house and like nice cars and. were going on holidays equa- equals. financial success equals oh, those. people did well in their traditional. career of banking or medicine or. engineer or law. And the narrative of like someone like. you, entrepreneur, social media, big. company, that it just didn't it just. wasn't really a thing in our parents'. generation. And you said there like. going on holidays da da da da da. But I. think if in go back to my like the. village in Nigeria where my where my. mom's from, having a good job was actually like. survival. It was like being able to eat.

It was like much more just. much lower things on Maslow's hierarchy. of needs. It was just like being able to. survive. And then not having a job and. an education was like pain from food, no. health care, no education. Um whereas in. as you say like in the Western world. when you grow up here, yeah, it means. Lamborghini and holiday and stuff, but. So you take that you take that. decision anyway driven by your. by an external narrative to go and.

become a doctor. Uh ex- external I think. there was also partly an internal. narrative and I'm not sure how much of. this is me just bullshitting myself, but. when I was 16, I decide I made a. conscious decision, do I want to do. computer science and do the tinkering. with websites thing or do I want to do. medicine? I think uh what I reasoned at the time. was was two things. Number one, medicine. is 6 years at university, computer. science is only three. Everyone says. university is great. Ergo, 6 years is. better than 3 years, therefore medicine. makes sense. But the other thing that I thought was. that it would be more interesting for my.

life to be a doctor who knows how to. code than to be a coder who knows how to. code. And it was like really that decision. where I realized, "Okay, why don't I do. medicine, keep the coding website-y kind. of stuff on the side so that I can. eventually do some kind of tech startup. thing related to medicine." And then. medicine becomes this side hustle in a. way before I had the terminology of of. the phrase side hustle. And so it ended up not quite working out. that way, but but certainly from my. first year of medical onwards, I knew. that I was not going to be a doctor.

full-time. I was going to do medicine. for fun and I was going to make money on. the side through a tech. startup or or something like that. And. did you try tech startup? Uh a little. bit. So in my first year of uni I second. year of uni, I started a company that. helped other kids get into med school. And then so that was like in-person. courses, but then eventually because me. and my brother knew how to code, we. turned this into a software online. question bank for the different med. school admissions programs. And so that would that was a sort of. like, you know, subscription billing. software as a service kind of product,

uh which was the closest I got to a tech. startup. I I dabbled with a few like. medical tech things. I used to do. freelance app design and web design for. med tech startups while I was at while I. was at uni. But when the YouTube channel started and. that really started taking off, I sort. of realized that. the thing I actually want to do is is. teaching rather than coding. Um and then. something something that you talk about. in the book is kind of reflecting on. your life and figuring out what are your. values, what is the thing that you have. that intrinsic motivation for.

And for me, I always had that intrinsic. motivation for business type stuff and. also for teaching. Uh I used to do. tutoring when I was like from the age of. 13 up until now. And those were the times where I felt. most alive in a way where I was teaching. someone else. Um and the nice thing about being a. YouTuber is that it's just teaching at. scale. And so I think I found that thing that. drives me intrinsically. Um and that So now tech startup is is. sort of a oh, backup option if YouTube. channel fails, if I get struck off the. medical register,

I can probably start a tech startup or. or words to that effect. I always find. it a little bit weird that someone would. just like go on YouTube and make a. video. You know what I mean? Like that first. when you hear about the first time when. these big YouTubers started, whether. it's like True Geordie who I've spoken. to here or Alfie Deyes who I think. became like the biggest one of the. biggest YouTubers in the country. Like. that first decision. to record yourself, usually in your. bedroom on a [ __ ] camera, talking to. nobody. Yep. Is a little bit weird. Do. you know what I mean? It is very odd. How did how did it start for you?

It started for me. So. I I harbored dreams of being a YouTuber. since about 2009. Why? Um because I used. to follow uh people like Kurt Schneider. and Sam Tsui who were kind of YouTube. cover artists. They would produce covers. of popular songs. And those covers were amazing. Like. they'd film them beautifully, arrange. them beautifully. And I had a few. friends who were really good at singing. And I fancy myself, you know, I was. quite into maths. I I liked the idea of. playing multiple musical instruments. So I thought, I want to be the sort of. YouTuber where I can play along to songs. and my friends who are actually good at.

singing can sing along to those songs. And that's the sort of YouTuber I want. to be. And so I sort of had a few like uh sort. of stop-starty moments over the over. those like next 10 years, um kind of. trying and failing at this. But ultimately, the reason I became a. YouTuber was because it was content. marketing for my medical school. admissions business, where I was helping people get into med. school, teaching them how to do well in. these exams. And no one was really. creating decent content for free on the. internet about those exams. There was. these kind of corporations creating.

boring corporate-looking stuff. Um and I saw that gap in the market. I. was like, great, if I can create these. sort of tutorials on YouTube, content. marketing, people will watch my. tutorials for free and if they like me. enough, they'll sign up to the course. And that's why I started speaking to a. camera in my bedroom. It was like, all. right guys, here are some tips for. section one of the BMAT. You know, section one is all about critical. thinking, the 60 minutes and 35. questions and bloody blah. And here's. how you do it. And I was so familiar. with that stuff having taught it for 5. years, um that. that started to do reasonably okay early.

on. In the days where I had like 51. subscribers, 52 you know, refreshing the. YouTube app every day to be like, oh my. god, I've got another view. Um and then it sort of morphed from. there. Was there a tipping point where. you thought, [ __ ] this is going to be. bigger than the. the thing that I intended this to. support? Yeah, that tipping point was my first. video that went viral. Uh and it was a video about how to study. for exams. Um. uh this was one of those weird.

weird things that I I look back on where. when I started YouTube, it was in June. of 2017. I knew that I wanted to make this video, this sort of how to study for exams. evidence-based tips, at some point. further down the line. It was a topic. that I'd researched extensively. I would. like people would come to me asking for. help on how to study for their exams. There's actually a whole body of like. psychological research on this that we. just don't get taught in school around. what are the actually most effective. ways to learn. And so I knew I wanted to make a video. about this. But I knew that I wanted. that to be like my 100th video rather. than my first video because I knew that.

I I knew nothing about cameras or. editing or anything. And I reasoned it. would take me 100 videos of being bad at. it before I could make a video that was. actually good. And I thought to myself to to myself, okay, I really want to put all my. everything into this 100th video so that. this video can potentially go big. And that's kind of what ended up. happening. It I think it was my 81st. video or something rather than my 100th, but that video went viral. I I had like. 4,000 subscribers before just sort of. slowly building up. And then over the. next few weeks, it just exploded up to. like 20,000, 25,000.

Um and I was getting all these comments. from people who knew me in real life. being like, oh, I've I've seen your. video. I didn't realize you were a. YouTuber. And that was the tipping point, um. which really sort of started that. exponential growth trajectory that kind. of you talk about in the compounding. chapter. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh but then again, I I So there's two. things that the first this I'll just do. them in the order in which I I thought. of them. Um. Okay, let's cuz you mentioned. compounding there. What have you learned. from your experience on YouTube about. the importance of of consistency?

Um and also from what you kind of what. typically happens with viral videos is. just there's. it's so impossibly hard to predict the. outcome, right? So a lot of people say a. lot of people on YouTube will make. videos called how to make a viral video. and in marketing it's all like, here are. the secret source, here are the secret. principles. But in reality, you can only. you can you can guess a couple of. principles, but the outcome is hard to. predict. So what have you learned about. consistency, but then also being able to. predict the outcome?

Yeah, uh. when I was listening to your your. compounding chapter, I just found myself. like nodding along like an absolute. maniac to to everything you were saying. I think the it applies so much to. YouTube. Uh the these days I I teach. people how to how to be part-time. YouTubers. And the and the thing I say. is that. if you make one video every week for 2. years, then I 100% guarantee it will. change your life. I can't put any numbers on it. I can't. tell you you'll have 100,000 subscribers. or how much money you'll be making, but. I can 100% guarantee it will change your. life. At the very least in terms of the. skills and the experience and the.

contacts and the friends you're going to. make through that process. But you have. to put out one video a week and you have. to do it for at least 2 years. Um Can I just ask on that then on that. point there? What is it that would would. make someone do that? Because I mean, that's like. [ __ ] clean the floor every day for 2. years and I promise you it'll work out. for you. Mhm. It like. people don't seem to be able to do those. kinds of things without some kind of. intrinsic driver. So I'm like I'm. curious cuz you could say that to a.

million people. You could broadcast that. through a tunnel way and 95% plus will. still fail. So what is it that makes people from. your your experience, but also yeah, from your own life, makes them do the. work without guarantee of outcome? Yeah, I think again, I've I feel like. this bit a bit of a cop-out cuz this is. stuff that you talk about uh like in. enjoying the process. And this is kind of the theme of the. book that I'm writing around how. you know, it's actually quite hard to. show up week after week, not see any.

results, not see the views and the. subscribers going up and and stuff. particularly quickly. But the thing that makes it bearable, the thing that makes it fun is actually. just enjoying the process and shifting. away from outcome-oriented goals like a. certain number of views, a certain. number of subscribers, and more towards. of goals that are 100% within our. control like, I just want to make two. videos a week. And if I'm happy with the. video, then it goes out. And in fact, even if I'm not happy with the video, it. goes out anyway. And everyone I know who. has succeeded on YouTube has had that. kind of attitude at some point. I just.

have to get that video out every Tuesday. without fail. It's not an option. It's. going to get done. And. you know, like you're saying when we. when we talk when we talk about. compounding, that that video on day one isn't going. to do anything. The video on day two or. day three or day 24 is not going to do. anything. But you find when you're on. day 300 and day 600, oh, actually all of. this stuff has been compounding very. very slowly. And then the results happen. really really really slowly and then all. at once as soon as you just get that one. video that that goes viral. That is I. think it that's the chapter I talk about.

the eighth wonder of the world. Yeah, that's it with Warren Buffett and my dog. Pablo being. the the opposing investor. And I. genuinely I think I learned that lesson. when I wrote the book. When I look back. on my life and I thought about all the. things that compounded in my favor, whe-. whether it was like my my teeth had some. problems with my teeth and I thought, do. you know why? And I I probably reference. this in the book. Like I I hadn't been. brushing one of my teeth properly and it. never mattered today or tomorrow or the. day after, but there I was in that. dentist chair but having my teeth.

[ __ ] pulled out. And then my. Instagram was the same. Um health and fitness at the moment, the. same. My business was the same. And it. just goes to show that it's not those. key critical big decisions we make to. drop out. It's that like, yeah, it's the. the compounding small, almost uh. irrelevant decisions. Yeah. But people. don't. cuz I heard you start working out. I. did, yeah. And then you stopped. Uh I So I've I've. I've had a personal trainer now for the. last kind of 8 months or so. There you go. Amazing. And uh you know, I've been I've been going on and off.

with the workout thing since the age of. 18 and never done it properly until I. got a personal trainer, where now I'm. having to show up. I'm paying someone 30. quid an hour to basically just be with. me while I'm doing stuff. And that has been the thing that's given. me the most results. Uh. so. I think. whatever like I I find in my life for. for things for things that I actually. care about where I'm like, okay, I. actually care about becoming a happy. sexy millionaire or whatever, let me try. and figure out ways that will remove my. own need for discipline and willpower.

from that equation. And instead get an accountability buddy. or get a coach or. pay a friend 100 quid if I don't do the. thing. This is what my brother and I did. when we were trying to motivate. ourselves. I was doing songwriting, he. was doing stand-up comedy. We're like, right, if we don't do this every. Thursday for half an hour, we're going. to pay each other 50 quid. Um things. like that to remove the choice, the. motivation, the willpower, the. discipline, that all. the more of that can be outsourced to. someone else or removed completely, the. more I find I actually get stuff done.

And then I don't have to worry about it. cuz I'm like, okay, this is taken care. of. I just show up. I guess you're. removing you're moving the mot- it's not. like removing you're moving it to. another pact. Like Nir Eyal refers to it. as what you've described there as a. financial pact. Where now your. motivation is to not lose 50 quid. It's. like because that is that's a greater. motivating force than you have within. yourself to work out. That's Is that. sustainable? No, it's not. It's not. Okay. Um. This is all the stuff that I'm. researching for the for for for the book. at the moment. Um and you and you talk. about this as well like in intrinsic and.

and extrinsic motivation. And the way that I I think of it when I. when I think back on my life is that. everything that I've done sustainably. has been because of intrinsic. motivation. I've genuinely enjoyed the. thing. But you can genuinely enjoy a thing. and still find it really hard to get. started. And I think that's where the. biggest procrastination comes in for all. of us where it's actually just showing. up to the gym. That's the hard part. Like once you're there it's kind of. easy. It's writing those first 10 words. cuz once you've started writing the. first 10 it's kind of easier to enjoy. the process of writing the rest of them.

And so the and so the way I think about. it is to to get over that like hump of. procrastination, that activation energy. to get started, at that point I will use. every tool that in my arsenal to just. just get me to do the thing for 2. minutes. Cuz I think once once you do the thing. for 2 minutes it becomes so much easier. to actually enjoy the process and and. and sustain it. And and you're so right. when it comes to procrastination. Like. that getting started point. I've again just learned this from. podcast guests I've had. Nir Eyal again. I refer to him. He he said to me one day. on this podcast he was like, people.

procrastinate usually because there's um. a great deal of psychological discomfort. surrounding starting the task. And a lot. of the time, especially with the gym or. even an essay, that psychological. discomfort is like you don't have the. answers. So I don't know how to use the. machines at the gym or I don't actually. have I don't feel competent enough to. even write this essay. So I'm just going. to do the [ __ ] dishes. Yeah. It's. like I'm going to hoover the the whole. house and anyone else's house that needs. hoovering today. Exactly. Um you you. wrote you made a video about. procrastination, didn't you? Yeah. Yeah.

Break that down for me. What's that. What's in the video? Um So the video's called how to stop. procrastinating, right? Yeah. Um. So the. the way I think about procrastination. basically. procrastination's a problem with getting. started. Um kind of this this law of. inertia, uh Newton's first law, that if something. is at rest it will continue to stay at. rest. But if something's moving it will. continue to move without needing an. external force. And so the key to. overcoming procrastination is that. little that that little nudge at the. start towards actually getting started.

And all of the techniques around that. like in the whole like psych- psychology. research or research around this it's. just around making make make it as easy. as possible. Um so reduce all of the. friction to doing it. If you want to. learn the guitar then have the guitar by. your sofa rather than in the wardrobe. where you're never going to see it. And. if it's out of sight it's out of mind. you're never going to do it. There's like the external environmental. friction towards doing the thing. But. then there's also the internal friction. It's like those narratives that we tell. ourselves the oh I did the psychological.

discomfort of going to the gym, the I. don't want to see how other people are. going to see me, the. even even having having the wrong sort. of goal. Like if my goal in writing the. book is, oh I really want to hit the New. York Times best seller list, then it's really really hard to bring. myself to write anything because now. every single word I have to write has to. be a New York Times best selling word. Whereas if the goal is, to be honest, I. just want to write a book I'm proud of. that's fun to fun to write, that's. actually within my control. And it. becomes so much easier to get started at. doing the thing. Um so to overcome procrastination we.

need to eliminate external friction, i.e. the environmental stuff. We need to. try our best to get rid of the internal. friction like the emotional side of it, the mindset, the perfectionism, the the. fear, the discomfort. And then if we. still need help, there are a few a few. hacks. The the one that I use all the. time is the the 2-minute rule, which is. where I will genuinely convince myself. I'm only going to do it for 2 minutes. Uh and if I want I'm allowed to stop. after the 2 minutes cuz 2 minutes is. better than nothing. But like 95% of the. time I decide to continue because. 2 minutes is all you need to change your. life. Yeah. I should tweet that. That's.

good. It's so yeah that's really good. And I that 2-minute thing is fascinating. to me because I one of the things that. um I see as another psychological. barrier to starting is people view it as. like they view the challenge as Mount. Everest. Whereas if like they've got to. I'll say it in another way. They view. the challenge as moving Mount Everest. And really if they viewed it as just. like moving one pebble at a time it. becomes such a simple task. Yeah. And I get this a lot when. entrepreneurs ask me they say, Steve I. want to start a business, where do I. start? And you can hear in the question. that they see it as moving Mount. Everest. And I'm like, well, today all.

you have to do is think of a name. Just think of like 50 names. Make a. short list of names. Yeah. And then. we'll we'll revisit it tomorrow. And. then tomorrow maybe think of, you know, go and check if the website's available. And then we'll revisit it the day after. Yeah. And when it becomes that and when. it becomes sort of really small itemized. one small step at a time and you're not. having to get from stair zero to a. thousand immediately, it becomes so, you. know, the psychological discomfort fades. away. It feels achievable. And that your.

2-minute rule's doing a similar thing. where it's saying, well, today only I've. I've only got to do just just [ __ ]. open the Word document and write the. title and then we're done. You know, and. So that's fascinating. What about re-. You you were going to say something else. there. Yeah, I mean I just just to your. point there. Um have you have you come. across the blog Wait But Why? No. Oh, it's incredible. You should definitely. interview Tim Urban when you're in. America. Oh, actually what I literally. yesterday went on his Instagram and sent. him a DM. Oh, great. Yeah, he's he's. awesome. Any any podcast he's ever been. on I've been like, oh this is so sick. Uh he has a great blog post series about.

overcoming procrastination. And the way. he refers to that that that point you. just made is that um there are a lot of. tasks that are very like vague and icky. Mhm. And you have to be able to. un-icky-fy a task. Uh and something like. start a business is icky. Something like. learn to code is icky because like what. the hell does that even mean? Like where. do you even start? Whereas brainstorm 10. ideas for a name and pick one of them is. a very clearly defined next action step. And so I get this with students all the. time where people are like, oh I don't. have the motivation to study for my.

chemistry exam. It's like, what's on. your to-do list? Study for my chemistry. exam. That's never going to happen. Read. chapter one and answer questions four to. five are a reasonable thing, a. reasonably defined next action step. Mhm. And so what I do is anytime I find. myself procrastinating from something I. think, okay, am I procrastinating. because I actually the the task is too. icky. I I don't know what I have to do. Cuz once I know what I have to do I can. then do it for 2 minutes and it gets. done. Speaking about productivity, um as you. guys know I'm I'm the biggest Huel. consumer in the world and I have been.

for many many many years. And I always. get asked what my favorite Huel products. are. And I have them here in front of. me. The first product that I fell in. love with with Huel because it's. nutritionally complete, it tastes. amazing. I have no time in my life, but. I also want don't want my diet to be. compromised when my life gets really. really busy as it always has um ended up. being. Um is this berry flavor. ready-to-drink Huel. That was where that. was where my journey with Huel began. The next product that I fell in love. with with at Huel was the banana flavor.

ready-to-drink. For me it just tastes. better than the berry and I I already. think the berry tastes amazing. Funnily, from speaking to Huel, a lot of people's. favorite flavor is the chocolate flavor. Um I've never taken a huge liking to the. chocolate flavor, but to be honest I. don't really eat much chocolate in any. facet of my life um or drink it at all. And now the product which I have every. single day without fail and probably. because I'm in that phase where I'm. working out every day without exception. and I want to make sure that my gains.

from working out, whether it's becoming. more lean or becoming more strong, are. captured is the protein um Huel which. has just come out. And as you can see, if anyone thinks I'm bullshitting about. how much I like Huel, this tub is. basically empty. So Huel, if you're. listening, please can I have a top up? I. will buy it, don't worry. Um but. honestly, and I say this with full. honesty, 100% honesty, um I genuinely. didn't like protein powders before. Maybe I'm lazy, not the type of guy that. likes to mix things. And this is my. favorite flavor protein ever. The salted.

caramel Huel which I talk about all the. time. They also have a ton of other. flavors. They're all actually on top of. my fridge there. But I'm starting with. this one. I've basically finished it and. then I'll work my way through the others. and give you a little bit of a review on. those. I it's such as I always say in. this podcast it's such an honor to be. able to talk about a product that you. use many times a day. I had a good Huel. ready-to-drink this morning. I'll have. this after my workout which is after. this podcast. And in terms of. productivity optim- um and operating at. your best then that is what Huel is all. about.

You know, people talk about how they'll. put on their to-do list clean house. And it will sit on a to-do list. And. clean house that's a That's a big thing. It's a big and it will and that will sit. on your to-do list for like I don't. know, 2 weeks or whatever. But if you do. if you time block and write in your This. is what I do on the weekends because so. Monday to Friday my schedule is ran by. the the meetings and things I have to. do. So I'm a slave to the calendar. Saturday and Sunday come around. I wake up I'm like, okay.

I'm like, what the [ __ ] How does this. thing work? It's like, yeah, I'm like. it's empty. I've got loads of things I. know I could be doing right now, but. nothing no one telling me what to do in. a in a in a life of mine where I'm told. what to do every 5 minutes. Um. So I time block on the weekends which. means clean house would become at 11:00. till 12:00 I clean the kitchen. Cuz then it's like time sensitive and. like task specific. And that's that's. been an absolute game changer for me. And I also think in the era of working. from home.

where. you know, people are sat at home, they. have a tasks they have to come. It's like we. It's almost like we prepped for this cuz. like this is literally like the the. three-part structure of of my book which. I've been like I just having in my head. for the last last few weeks. Perfect. Where like step one is, how do. we beat the procrastination, how do we. get started with doing the thing, and. part two of the book is how do we. sustain, how do we actually keep on. going doing the thing. And. uh there's just so in in in terms of. mindset, the thing that I found that.

actually moves the needle is focusing on. trying to make it fun. And I really I. really like that word fun, like. I think there's something about the word. fun that is so like childish, but also. fully speaks to like fun basically means. intrinsic motivation, like something is. sufficiently enjoyable that you do it. for its own sake rather than for the. fact that you've got a sponsor helping. you or you've got a deadline or or. things like that. Um. there's one. there's one story in particular that I I. I I often come back to and that's like.

sometime last year I was I was working. at the hospital, it was pandemic season, etc. etc. And I'd I'd gotten to the end. of like a 13-hour long shift and I was. just about to go home uh and the nurse. said to me, "Oh Ali, can you put a. cannula in this patient? Her like IV. line is tissued and and she needs fluids. overnight." And my heart kind of sank. I. was like, "Oh no." Like if if the nurse. wasn't able to put the cannula in, that. means this is a patient with difficult. veins, it means it's going to be hard to. put this in. And I sort of had this mindset of like, "All right then, fine." and sort of uh.

grudgingly took out the cannula and got. got all the the equipment in a tray. And I like as as I was doing this, I. there was a a patient in the bay next. door where they were just like talking. to a family member or something and. saying, "Oh you know, that this hospital. has been amazing, everyone is so nice, and what a pleasure it is, you know, freaking love the NHS" kind of vibes. And I realized that in that moment I was. not being like a good. model internally for what I want the NHS. to be and what I want a good doctor to.

be. And there's something that Seth. Godin uh who uh who I've been following. for a while says, which is that. it's the difference between have to and. get to. And so I was considering as like, "Oh I. have to put in this cannula." And I. remembered that blog post I read from. Seth Godin where he said, "Instead of. thinking of have to, think of it as get. to." And I realized, "Oh, I get to put. in this cannula. I get to make a. difference in this patient's lives and. and life and give her fluids overnight. so that she's not going to dehydrate. because of her morning sickness.". And just that mindset shift immediately. made me feel so much better about it.

And I was like, "Oh, I get to do this. Who cares if I've been working for 13. hours? This is fun. This is privilege. This is cool." And I put it in and we. had a nice chat and I felt really great. about it afterwards. And now like that. and so that's one of the mindset things. that I just always come back to if I'm. finding myself not enjoying something. and therefore my focus goes, I get. distracted, I I procrastinate. Instead of thinking I have to do this, I. think I get to do this. It's like a. gratitude shift. Yeah. Yeah, it's like your chapter three or. whatever it was talking about gratitude. And we so quickly fall out of gratitude.

Mhm. When we become used to Yeah. When we become like used to the. privilege of our life, used to the. privilege of our jobs, of our. relationships, of our kids, of our dog. We we think, well, you know, we And. because it And the Stoic people talk. about this. I think I probably talk. about this in the book as well cuz these. are just Clearly the only ideas I have. I've put them all in there. Um how they. used to do that like hedonistic. adaptation. um exercises to literally take the. things out of their life that they. really value just to remind themselves. of what they had. And it kind of seems. like, yeah,

gratitude is a very important thing. Have you Have you got like a defined. gratitude practice that you do? Like. gratitude journaling or that kind of. stuff? Uh so I the gratitude journaling. thing um takes place in the notes of my. phone where sometimes I feel the need to. remind myself of what I'm really really. grateful for. I think I do have a. a bias towards feeling grateful all the. time. I really just get overwhelmed. sometimes with like I'll have like a. little flash. You probably get this when. you think, "What the [ __ ] is this?". Yeah. Like you know what I mean?

Like what the Especially now that I'm on. Dragon's Den and that was a real vision. of mine from when I was like 12 years. old. I'm like. oh my this is And I said this in my show. the other day. I said um. I said on stage in the diary of a CEO. live. I said that um I said to the audience, I. said like. I think everybody in this room is living. a life that you once dreamed of living, but you don't you're not even happy. about it because. present you. well, yeah, present you has told you. that future you will be even happier. when you get to somewhere else, but like.

this is it. This was the [ __ ] dream. and look at you living it. Look at you. as you're, you know, doctors and lawyers. and you've got the job at that brand you. always wanted to work for. This is it. Um. and I I have to do that to myself. sometimes because. yeah, it um. because if not, you'll never get there. If your happiness is always as I say in. the book, if if it always lives. somewhere in the future behind some goal. or attainment of some task or whatever, it always will be there. And that was. certainly the case for me. And I from. what I read about you. where um.

you were talking about like. outcomes and not being too attached to. the outcomes. Sounds like it might have. been similar. Yeah. Yeah, very much so. Um I I have to remind myself on a daily. basis as well um to kind of be be be. grateful for for all of the things. Um. sometimes like if I if if I'm in the. habit of doing like a morning journal, I'll like write down a list of three. things and it's it's often simple things. like you know, this cup of coffee in my. hand or Angus or like my housemate and.

just like, you know, this nice chat that. we had. And I think like like for me if if I. don't remind myself I I always just. think in kind of hustle mode of like, "All right, cool, onto the next thing, onto the next thing, onto the next. thing.". Um but like it was it was pretty cool. yesterday like we. we went on a tour of Gymshark HQ up. north. And I was just thinking that I can't. believe this is this is my job. Like I I. get to do this for work. This is. absolutely sick. And even now being here. like this is. sitting here talking to you is what I. get to do for work. And if like I don't.

know, 18-year-old me were to imagine. being in this position now, I'd just. been like, "Oh my god, this is this is. the dream.". Have you come across a guy called. Brandon Sanderson? Nope. Uh he's an. author. He he writes he's he's my. favorite author. Uh he does these. incredible like fantasy novels. Stormlight Archive huge huge huge uh. series. In it there's like a a phrase that I. always come back to around this point. There's this like um order of knights, they're called the Knights Radiant, and. they have like their like charter, their. ideals. And their first ideal is life. before death, strength before weakness,

journey before destination. And it's. that final bit of journey before. destination that I remind myself of on a. basically daily basis where. it's it's kind of like Miley Cyrus's. thing of it's the climb. It's not about. how fast I get there, ain't about what's. waiting on the other side, it's the. climb. And the way I try and. I try and remind myself of this point of. I I am enough is thinking and and really. trying to internalize that the journey. is more important than the destination. Mhm. And I think we do need a. destination. Like you know, the fact.

that I want to I don't know. write this book or whatever. Like that's. that's a destination. But now that I've. got that destination of like, "Cool, this is the direction I want to go." At. that point in a dream world I would just. forget about that. And now that I'm on. the journey, I would enjoy the journey. on its own merit. Mhm. Because you know, as you know, once you if you set a goal, you hit the goal, it's like, "Well, happiness lasted. the joy from that lasted about 5 seconds. and then it feels like nothing. Even like sometimes it doesn't feel like. anything at all even even for those 5. seconds." Mhm. Um and so what I've been.

realizing a lot recently is that yes, we're I don't know, expanding the team. and moving to an office in London and. like hiring people and bloody blah blah. blah. But really like am I enjoying myself day. to day? And am I kind of living. the dream as it were day to day and not. not so much worrying about the goal at. the end of it. One thing that you that. you that you talk about as well um is. I think it was either 19 chapter chapter. 19 or 20. It was around. this thing of you kind of yeah, ambition. versus insecurity is this thing that you.

think you want to do, is it coming from. within or is it coming from outside of. you? And you talk about values like living in. alignment with your values. Do you have any like how how do you. figure out what your values are? It's a really interest It's a really. interesting um thing. Um I think. I think one of the the best indicators. of what your values are are from how you. feel. That's maybe the most um. fundamental human stimuli we have, which.

is how something makes us feel. Um. slight tangent. I was talking to someone about this. yesterday. In the world we live in and as the. social media connected from birth. generation, we don't understand what our. actual true intrinsic values are very. easily because even if And then this is. kind of a controversial topic, but who. cares? Even charity. We all think we're. charitable human beings. We're not. And if you've only got to look back at.

human history to understand that our. morals are highly influenced by what. society is doing at the time because if. you go back 150 years, I would have been. a slave potentially. Right? My family. certainly would have in Africa. Like. they would have had a high chance of. being slaves. And at the time. my slave master was not a bad person. He. was a good person. You know, morally sound person, you. know, and and and now obviously that's. viewed as being an awful thing. And it's. the same within like the. LGBTQ T Q Q community that, you know, at.

one time. um it that was just everyone knew that. believed that being in a same-sex. relationship was. a terrible thing, an evil thing in some. religious um writings. Now we all accept. it to be How can our morals have society. has changed. The force that's telling us. what's right and wrong, what's good and. bad, what's valued and what, you know, has changed. That's the only change. that's happened. So I do believe deeply. that a lot of our values um unavoidably.

come from our willingness to survive by. taking up the values of the communities. we live in. However, when it comes to your personal. values. however they've been shaped, usually. from your parents or early experiences, I I just go on based on how things make. me feel and. that seems to be the only indication I I. I have of what's what's true for me and. what's not. If I If I'm alone and I watch a a video. of a baby um suffering or crying. and it makes me sad.

when no one's around. Yeah. And I'm not having to tweet about my. feelings to the world, then I would. assume that that is, you know, you said. about learning and sorry, teaching. You've got enjoyment from that. You've. always got I would assume that's one of. your sort of professional values or. something you value professionally. Yeah. I've been on a whole like quest across. the internet of the last few months to. try and answer this question of how do. you how do you figure out what your. values are. Um there's this like program. with a life coach that I even did which. is like just just finishing up where um.

one of the exercises was. to like go back to your childhood and. think about. kind of on a scale of kind of minus 10. to plus 10, uh minus being really bad. and plus being really good, like what. were the most salient experiences of. your childhood? And I was like, okay, this sounds like. BS, but all right, let me engage with. this process. And then I I made this. list of all these things that these. salient memories from childhood like, you know, that time when my brother new. game my Pokémon Blue and I lost my 146. Pokémon and that how how that felt and. that time when whatever.

Um and the facilitator was like, okay, let's try and tease out like what this. might tell you about some of your. values. And I was kind of surprised that. a lot of the stuff that came out of. that, if I think about is this a core value. that I live by {slash} I want to live. by, the answer was yes. Uh and I was surprised by how much of. those experiences were when I was under. 10 years old shaped maybe the values. that I've got right now. And so when I think about my values, it's things like I think primarily for. me right now it's like freedom and.

autonomy, which is why I think I've got. this whole drive to be financially. independent, to work medicine part-time. rather than full-time, to have be in. control of my own schedule, things like. togetherness kind of working with other. people a really fun thing for me whether. I was in school or university. Studying. with friends is just always more fun. than studying on my own. And that wasn't. true of for everyone, but it was. certainly true for me. Um teaching on. that list kind of uh. hell helping other people in a way, but. like I've got I've got friends for. example who who who run charities and.

they genuinely feel in their hearts. if there is suffering in the world. Yeah. And I don't genuinely feel in my. heart when there's suffering in the. world. Um but I know intellectually that. I should care about this thing and so I. will act in a way that makes me care. about the thing and like donate 10% of. my money to charity every year and all. this all this stuff, but I won't. actually feel it. Um but when I think. about how I feel, it's like teach. teaching other people rather than saving. saving lives is the impact that I care. about having. And when I realized this, I was like, oh, okay, this explains why I actually. don't really care that much about.

medicine. Like I'm I prefer. teaching medical students than actually. practicing as a doctor. Mhm. And. realizing that teaching is more of a. value for me than saving lives for. example. I was like, okay, cool. This. this makes sense. I can now get on board. with that and not feel bad about it. The. other point is that I've never. cared about really I've really never. cared about finding out what my values. are. Because and this is probably goes back. to what how I answered that question. because the stimuli that I have to. decide all of these things is like um. how does it make me feel? And I think if.

you have a good quitting framework. then you will quickly move in the. direction of your values um much faster. than others will. Quitting framework? Yeah, like if you have a good uh a good. uh like quitting framework, you're very. good at quitting, then you you'll. actually you'll. so if you're good at. conducting experiments and then. quitting, like just a it's like rapid AB testing, right? And you can I think I think the. answer really to finding out who you are. and what your values are and getting. your place to a life that you really. love is try something. I I always say to.

young people, increase the amount of. experiments you're doing and quit. faster. So you go and get a job, you're like, okay, um I hate this. This boss was a. dick because we didn't have any freedom. here or autonomy. I hate that part. I. love the fashion part, but I just hate. this environment because of this this. and this. Quit. Go and find a job where. you have the bit you liked and some new. sort of uh ex factors. And then you go, okay, well, I love that bit. I actually. loved being a manager here. I'm going to. keep the fashion piece. I love the. autonomy of being able to work from home. or whatever. Then quit, move on. Next. job, you know. And I think that's what. I've done in my life is I never knew.

what my values were, but I went in the. direction of um. I started out in call centers. Knew I loved building things and being. an entrepreneur in sales. Moved in that. direction, quit the call center jobs, did about 15 of them, start my own. business. Parts of business I really. don't like. Yeah. Don't want to do those parts. Don't do. them. I still don't do them. Yeah. And I'm. like, this is the part within this bit. within business that I love doing within. this industry and I never was. intentional about that. There was no. plan. It was this rapid increase the.

experiments you're doing and quit as. fast as you possibly can. Um and then you end up I think in a life. that you're But quitting is easier said. than done. I have to say it would be. remiss if I didn't say all of this is. underpinned by huge confidence in self. Mhm. And the fact when I do quit, I don't. need a plan and that I'll I'll be fine. A lot of people don't have that part, so. they. hold themselves in a miserable situation. because it's a certain one. Yeah. You know, I like. like when I when I read that bit of the.

book, the the quitting framework, I was. sort of retrospectively applying. decisions I've made to quit to that that. thing of like suck and hard. I was like, oh, okay, this actually makes a lot of. sense. Um. there was one decision that my mom still. haunts me about. which was. a. about about a year ago I decided that, you know what, I want to take my medical. career seriously and I want to move to. America to do medicine. I had a few. friends who were there, it seemed like. an adventure and it seemed cool. But to. move to America from the UK to do. medicine, you have to take this like. ridiculously hard exam called the USMLE.

and it's basically like relearning all. of medical school. but at like, you know, a ridiculous. level of detail more so than we have in. the UK. And so I started off preparing. for this and I realized that this is. actually really hard. And. the thing that. I reasoned in my mind was. I could do this. It's but the reward is. really not worth it. Like you get to the. end of it. I'd spoken to some doctors. who were working in America. and they were like, yeah, you make 400k. a year and you're working a lot and.

you're going through this 4 years of. grueling residency program. And in my mind it was like, okay, it's. it's hard and the outcome is not worth. it. Therefore, I'm just going to quit. That's the worst place to be in life. Doing hard. struggling for nothing. Yeah. Um but then when I have conversations. with my mom, it's like, oh, well, you quit because you're a quitter. Like. the fact that you found it hard me like. you only quit because it was hard. And. it's like. no, I didn't only quit because it was. hard. I also I also crucially quit. because it was like the the reward was. not going to be worth it, but I I didn't.

quite have the terminology to express. that until I read it in your book. recently. Yeah. Well, I didn't either and it was again. that's why I have to specify that that's. not the framework I've made my life. decisions through through for my whole. life. In hindsight, what I'm a very. logical sort of first principle thinker. and that's why I'm able to arrive at. peace when I make these massive life. decisions because it's like, oh, logically there was no alternative. There was no alternative. I'm not going. to do something that's hard and not. worth it. What kind of insanity is that? I am. someone that will do something that's. hard and worth it.

I'm not and I'm not someone that's going. to quit every time something sucks. I am. someone that's going to try and change. it if it's worth it and if I think it's. possible to change. I mean my my you. know, my girlfriend have an argument and. I go, this sucks and [ __ ] walk out. the door. That's not who I am. I will. try and fight for something if it's. worth it and if I believe it's. changeable. And so. logically I think that framework is. robust. I think it's solid. You talk a lot about time management. Managing one's time. You made a lot of. videos about the topic.

What have What have been some of the. other sort of um tips or tricks that. you've adopted that have helped you. manage your time better? We talked about. time blocking and. um. breaking your vague to-do list tasks. down into specific ones. Is there. anything else that comes to mind? Yeah, there's one um. I've I've read a bunch of books around. productivity and stuff. Uh there's one. called Make Time. by these chaps called Jake and John. Uh. and there's a tip in there which I. genuinely use every day. Uh it's just. it's called the daily highlight where. it's just similar to Gary Keller's thing.

of the one thing like, what is the one. thing you want to do today? And then. it's like I define that in the morning. Okay, what's the one thing I want to do. today? Record this podcast with you. What's the one thing I want to do. tomorrow? Finish sample chapter for the. book proposal. And then I'll stick a. slot in the calendar for it and then the. thing will get done. And on days where I actually do the. daily highlight thing, I have about a. 50% success rate with actually thinking. about it in the morning. I always just. get more done and I feel at the end of. the day, oh, I've made progress because. I've done that one thing that was most. important. And on the days where I. don't, I find that like, oh, I've got.

these 18 things to do on my to-do list. Got this message coming from this person. who wants to intro intro to that person. Whereas when when I know what that one. thing is, I'm like, oh, okay, cool. All. I have to do is just get that one thing. done today. And I sometimes think that. if I did this more often, if for 365. days I actually just did the one thing. that's most important each day, I'd be. making so much progress. I'd be having. so much fun. And then I think to myself, why do why. don't I actually just do this every day? Um but that's that's one of my main. ones. That's life as well. Just.

And you you when you talked about the. tipping point in your career where you. blew up, you're talking about made you. made that video about how to study. And I guess the premise of that video. was teaching people how to learn better. Yeah. You've read a lot of As it relates. to learning Yeah. outside of studying just more generally, what tools have you adopted? Cuz you're. some you even, you know, you've read my. book and you remember all everything it. seems. What trips and tips and tricks. have you learned about how to learn. better? Yeah, um. so. essentially the main one is that we.

learn by. testing ourselves rather than by. consuming more stuff. Uh like we like in in which is a bit. counterintuitive, like when it comes to. if we if we think about like studying. and then we can kind of broaden it out. Like if it comes to studying, we think. that to to learn more stuff, I need to. get more information into my brain. But. what what what what what the evidence. says is that no, to learn more stuff, you actually need to read it once and. then you have to try your best to get it. out of your brain. And that feels hard. and it feels tough and it feels like oh, I'm I'm an idiot, I don't know enough. But that that like desirable difficulty.

is what allegedly creates the neuronal. connections in our brain to make us. actually learn something. Um, and so it's similar to working out. like progressive overload. When it's. heavy and when it feels hard is when. your muscles are actually growing cuz. you've got the stimulus for growth. Equally, when it comes to learning. anything, when it feels hard is when. there is a stimulus for the neurons to. grow. Or words to that effect. And so when it. comes to studying, if anyone is sort of. listening to this, has exams coming up. and they are worried about the grades, the the answer is that they're just not.

testing themselves enough. The more you. test yourself, the better grades you'll. get. And this therefore applies also to. every other thing that we're trying to. learn. So, you know, if I'm learning I. was learning how to play You've Got a. Friend in Me on the guitar the other. day. And if I'm just playing through the. first two verses of it that I know. already, I'm not learning anything. But. as soon as I try doing the thing that. feels hard, at that point it's like it. the harder it feels, the more I'm. learning. And then and then we sleep and. then the connections get solidified. Um, so it's that that's kind of the main. concept. Basically, test yourself more, whatever that thing is. Um, and the.

second big one in the research is spaced. repetition that anything we learn, whether it's a fact for an exam or a. song on the guitar, our memory for it. will exponentially decay over time. And the way to make it go into a. long-term memory, whatever the skill is, is to interrupt the forgetting curve uh, at spaced intervals. So, maybe you would. learn you would practice the song on day. one, you'd practice it again on day two, then on day five, then on day 25, and. then on day 105. And as the intervals. lengthen, that is the sort of thing that. gets this how to play the song or this.

fact about medicine or whatever into our. long-term memory. And most things around learning can. basically be summed up by those two. things, active recall, i.e. test. yourself, and spaced repetition, i.e. space it out over time. Interesting. People are really. fascinated by productivity, aren't they? They are, yeah. I think I heard you say. about like when you put the word. productivity in your content, it seems. to perform better. Yeah, I I often think about this like. So So, to me, productivity.

I think I think to a lot of people, productivity just means efficiency and. creating economic output. The way that I. define productivity is just kind of. using my time well and working on things. that are meaningful to me and optimizing. for happiness. And so to me, this. conversation is is productive, hanging. out with friends is productive. I was playing PlayStation last night for. a couple of hours. That to me was. productive because I was like. intentionally doing it cuz I wanted to. take a break from writing. Um, it's when I feel it's I I feel. unproductive when I know there is. something I want to do and I am not. doing the thing.

because I'm scrolling Instagram. That to. me is unproductive. You're not being. intentional with your time. Exactly. Yeah. But I think on the internet these. days, people use productive as economic output. and the whole like oh, I want to be more. productive, it's a. I think partly it's a. virtue signaling thing to some degree as. well. Yeah. Yeah, partly to it's it's a virtue. virtue signaling thing. I think I think. partly it's it's also like a. self-flagellating thing in a way whereby. I I often see comments on my videos. where it's like productive day in my.

life, which I'm kind of doing tongue in. cheek just cuz it's funny, where people. are like oh my god, I watch these just. to make myself feel bad. And I'm like oh, wow, okay. Uh, A, this is a this is mostly a joke. Like I hope you realize this, but but. but also it's like that that's kind of. sad that that comment has got so many. upvotes, where oh, I feel so I feel like. such a waste man when I watch one of Ali. Abdaal's videos. And I think there is that like perverse. sense of. people getting pleasure out of the story. they're telling themselves that they are. non-productive or that they are chronic.

procrastinator. And to see someone who. doesn't who is on the surface seemingly. so productive. makes you kind of feel bad about. yourself. Um, I wonder if it's similar to like if I. look at my Instagram explore page, about. a year ago, it used to be bikini models. These days are the dudes with six-pack. abs. And I look at that and there is a part. of me that gets pleasure out of like. flagellating myself and then like why. why don't I look like that yet? And I wonder to what extent that's like. a thing in the world of productivity. It is fascinating.

Cuz. I mean, that would be driven by. the antithesis of that. That's got to be. driven by a culture where productivity. and I'm getting so much done, so I'm. going to be successful and rich and a. millionaire and this is I mean, stealth. mode building this massive business and. I've been up all night. Look at me, it's. 4:00 a.m. and I'm still working. That's. driving one end of the spectrum, which. is making productivity and being. productive an aspiration for. this generation. And on the other end, that's I mean, that's why again, the desire to be productive is so high.

and your videos do so well on that. topic. And then you have the counter movement. as as you always do where it's like I'm. such a procrastinator and then all the. memes. which bang just as hard because. there's been this desire created in. culture to be, you know, super. productive. Or as it relates to like. weight and fitness, like. everyone wants to look so good and then. the memes of people sat there with a pot. noodle on their belly like resting like. with their like running shoes on. will also bang just as hard. Yeah. But. yeah.

It's just a very relevant thing in our. culture, which is quite quite strange. that that this incessant desire to be. productive. I think there's actually. there is a rising counterculture, which. is about. being okay with not being productive. Yeah, no, exactly. I am I am I'm having to pepper in a. pepper that into my videos a lot more. these days. Nice. Because I kind of. thought it was it was. so obvious that it doesn't need to be. stated that obviously, you know, don't be don't be don't seek economic. output and productivity at the expense. of other things that are more important.

like health and relationships. Uh, but clearly that's not a thing that. is obvious. And so I'm now having to. caveat a lot of my productivity advice. with like a look guys, let's just define. productivity as, you know, meaning and. fulfillment and stuff rather than pure. economic output. And it's okay to be intentional and say. I don't want to do anything today if. that was your intention. I want to just. do [ __ ] all like and I think that's um, that's the nuance that's required in all. of that. Psst. Speaking of productivity, one more.

company I wanted to tell you about, fiverr.com. I mean, if there was a. company that's predicated on increasing. your productivity, it is fiverr.com, where you can outsource some of the. tasks in your life that you do not want. to do professionally, whether it's. designing a website, making a thumbnail, um, editing a video, anything, you can. get it done on fiverr.com. cost-effectively. And sometimes, if. we're talking about increasing. productivity, using someone who's on. another time zone, which means work is. still happening when you are asleep, which extends the bandwidth of the. amount of hours you have towards your.

goals. Um, this month, we are using. Fiverr to to redesign the thumbnails on. our second YouTube channel, a graphic. designer we found there. And I always. use it whenever I have professional. tasks that I need handling. That is. fiverr with two r's.com/ceo. You talked about relationships at the. start of this podcast. You said. You said you you I you think you alluded. to the fact that you hadn't had much. luck there. Mhm. When we were talking. about knowing you're enough. Yeah.

What's going on? Yeah, this is a real problem. Um, so. there's a few like narratives that I've. bought into um, subconsciously. One of. those narratives is that I am like a. weedy nerd kid this like the kid that I. was when I was 12 years old and getting. slightly bullied in school and getting. grades and stuff, but like not really. have anything anything. uh, not being valuable as a human being. beyond the fact that I was generating. A stars in exams. That's like one side of it. There's. there's another side, but I don't I I'd.

I'd love to hear your take on on the. other side. side? The other side is um, if we're if we're keeping it real, it's. like I think it's around. masculinity and what it means to be a. man. And if one if one were to hypothetically. read WikiHow articles on how to get. girls or even the vast literature on the. topic, um, there is a big thing of women. are attracted to. men like, you know, people who are so so. so someone who is a man, someone who. leads, someone who's like alpha, those.

sorts of those those sorts of things. And. I think. my kind of default way of being is very. not that. And like my idea of fun is. singing Disney songs and playing board. games until 2:00 in the morning with a. pizza takeaway rather than something. that a more like macho alpha type person. person would be. And so. on the one hand, there's that thing of. just be yourself, uh, of be your. authentic self, etc. etc. and I'll go. well like that for who you are. And on the other side, it's the the.

thing of. you will objectively get more success. with women in inverted commas if you. sort of are more of that alpha type. personality. Here's the problem you have. Yeah, please. On the on the that that particular point. before we move on cuz I'd love to hear. what you're going on to say, but you. were you it sounded like you were saying. do I be myself and dance around. listening to Disney, um, even though it might return a lower. quantity of smoking hot potential. partners. Correct.

Um, or the alternative to that is do I. be masculine um, guy and like act. outside of self to generate more smoking. hot partners. The issue you have is you just got to. zoom out and you got to think about the. outcome of both approaches and how. sustainable both approaches are. Mhm. All you can be is yourself for a long. period of time. Okay. And if you want long long-term. results, that's the only option you have. Of. course, you can act as something you're. not and pretend you don't like Disney. and not listen play board games and.

stuff. And you might meet. the wrong person for a short amount of. time. Because and it will be a short amount of. time because that relationship will. capitulate the minute they find out who. you actually are. And this is there's. you know. um. this is this is always for me the answer. is you have to be yourself you have no. choice in that. You do have a choice in being able to. kill some of those confidence issues. which might be self-sabotaging at key. points in the relationship where it. turns into insecurity and results in.

jealousy. And you know if you're coming. into a relationship thinking why the. [ __ ] is this person with me the chance. of you exhibiting jealous behavior and. controlling behavior and manipulative. behavior and insecure behavior and where. are you why haven't you here and why. haven't you text me back fast enough and. is is high and for me that will put. undue pressure on something that might. have worked otherwise. So go ahead and. work on the the confidence issues but. never ever dare change who you are. Like. the things you intrinsic do not change.

those. Do not try and act outside of. those because that is that will lead to. really short-term results and you don't. actually want to be with anyone for 50. years that doesn't want to dance and. listen to Disney movies with you. You. don't actually want to society is. telling you want a smoking hot. but you don't actually want that. You'll. you won't return joy on that. You'll. you'll return status from walking in. with a smoking hot. model that has no brain. but you won't return joy in the long. term. And that is the goal that's the. North Star. Does that make sense?

It does. Yeah. Um. on the note of. being yourself. the thing that I the the thing that I. feel. I feel a I feel a contradiction is that. on the one side there's there's kind of. be yourself and on the other side. there's like choose yourself. And. what I what I worry about is what if. this person who I am I.E. the kind of. nice guy who like like enjoys this. Disney and board games and stuff that's. a result of accidental experiences that.

I haven't really chosen for myself. And. should I instead be thinking okay who's. the sort of person I want to be? Well then having having said that I. don't want to be anyone who doesn't sing. along Disney songs cuz they're just. great. Yeah. Yeah. And you sing along to. Disney songs not because you're now. being forced because you enjoy it. Yeah it's a genuinely fun. It makes you feel [ __ ] love Yeah it's. so good. There you go. So that's that's. part of the answer to a lot of the. things we've discussed before which is. going in the direction of the things. that make you feel good. Don't suppress. things that make you feel good cuz then. you'll feel [ __ ].

So if that makes you feel good that is. in as far as I'm concerned you've. explored and exploited as you say and. you've and you've and you found. something you enjoy and don't sacrifice. that for what? For a pretty woman to be stood next to. you. That's not that that trust me will. not be enjoyment that'll be status. That'll be extrinsic approval which is. very different from internal. fulfillment. So I would never disregard. those things. However you can as I've. done over the last year and a half say. do you know what. it when I look at my values and who I I.

I actually want to be internally my. health this is what I've done is so. foundational to everything. And I really. managed to almost like hypnotize myself. somehow. um into knowing that me being in good. shape and me being someone that goes to. the gym every day and prioritizes that. my health is my first foundation is in. line with my happiness. The change in my life the thing that's. put me in the best shape of my life ever. was before as I said in this podcast me. working out was all about women.

The minute it became not about women it. stuck. Because. because um yeah for so many reasons. I. mean I I enjoyed the process and I. removed wanting six pack and I I. basically don't have any gym goals now. whatsoever. My goal is to go every day. it stuck. It became intrinsic it was for. me. Um and now I go every single day and the. minute we finish this conversation my. PT's waiting for me. And I was went. yesterday the day before I'll go the day. tomorrow every day. Okay. I don't care. I'm not doing it for anyone else.

So it sticks. Interesting. That's why your relationship will fail. if you're with a someone that you you're. with for external reasons it won't. stick. Okay. Yeah this makes a lot of sense. Content. Content? Yeah you make a lot of content. and you've must have come to learn a lot. about humans and psychology from all. these videos you make you tinker around. with the titles and the thumbnails and. um. uh and you've. become such a big YouTuber you got. millions of subscribers from a very. iterative process of I guess really.

understanding what humans will respond. to and what they want what their desires. are. What would you give me as advice. for how to make. if I'm a listener a really great content. that people will care about? It's a broad question but there you go. I think it's about. hooking them in with the promise of. something simple and quick. and then.

and and if you stop at that point that. is I think where. kind of sort of course scammers and. marketing gurus and stuff were maybe 20. years ago. It's hooking them in with a simple and. quick promise. but then. delivering on the nuance of it that I. think people are caring about more than. ever now. And so like. one thing that we've iterated with over. time is you know. often the success of a video will depend. on how clickbait the title is and. there's no getting around that. We've.

never found that a title that's less. clickbait does better. I I I did a video. called how writing online changed my. life. It absolutely bombed. Just change. the title how writing online made me. millionaire suddenly absolutely. exploded. People love that like oh this is a quick. solution this is a quick path to this. this this goal that I want hence your. title of happy sexy millionaire. Um but we've also found that on videos. where I think oh let's let's dumb the. message down let's just kind of do a. quick five-point listical without any.

examples because people just want the. dopamine hit of advice that sounds. reasonable but they they can't action. Those videos haven't done as well like. people click on them but then they don't. stay watching. And the videos we found that do the best. is you make a promise at the start and. then you deliver on the nuance. throughout the whole thing. And actually. people at least at least in my audience. and I suspect in yours and anyone. listening actually do want depth and. nuance not just a sort of surface level. two-minute long thing that you would. have seen on YouTube circa 2005. Um I think you do a pretty great job of.

that as. um. yeah. Yeah I'm learning. I'm. con- you know continue to learn. And. YouTube's a bit of a new medium for me. so it was good it's good to to get that. um. that perspective. You you also um you're. very. in in sort of self-aware and honest. I I. you wrote something about um why you're. failing. which is. you I I think you wrote a piece which. was detailing why you think you're. failing in life. I think I have this issue where.

I often feel like what I'm currently. doing is not quote good enough. because. you know. we're leaving money on the table or. because our team is inexperienced or. because I suck at being a manager or I. suck at being a leader and. although I'm learning to improve in in. all those things. I sometimes feel that oh but it's it's. it's it's not fast enough. I think. that's where the comparison stuff comes. in because. when my peer group was.

kind of just my friends in medical. school. and I was doing the YouTube stuff and. then I was kind of the only one in the. in the in the pack doing the thing. And. so it was like oh anything goes like I'm. not comparing myself to anyone. Now that I am sort of a bigger name on. YouTube the sorts of people I compare. myself to now are kind of other. YouTubers with millions of subscribers. The population for comparison changes. and I find that the more I compare the. less good I feel about the stuff that. I've done. And so to get around that I try to just.

A not compare at all and B also think. journey before destination and all the. all all of the mindset stuff but it's. easier said than done. And I still feel internally like right. now. we're not using. money in the company like efficiently. enough. We're not hiring fast enough. we're not doing this fast enough we're. not doing that fast enough. Um. Do you think you'll ever get to a point. where that stops? Hm. Because I tell you what. Yeah what what's it been like for you? Well I mean no I was just going to say. let's just I mean one way to look at it. is. Ali. five years ago when you first started.

if you'd shown him a picture of you now. what would he have said? That's pretty cool. Yeah I mean like if. you'd gone if when you made those first. couple of videos you'd gone you're going. to have two million subscribers on. YouTube you're going to have over. hundreds of thousands of followers on. Instagram. I would have had a stroke. You would. have had a [ __ ] stroke. Yeah there's. no way. There's no [ __ ] way that's. me. Yeah. And here you are. This is what I was. alluding to earlier it's like. past version of yourself told you'd be.

happy when you got here but you're not. because like you're not. fully satisfied because there's a future. version of yourself that's saying you'll. be happy when you get here. and it just never [ __ ] stops. It. never stops does it? Like it seem it's it seems like at least. on the outside that you've done a good. job of kind of. I mean obviously you're like pretty. clearly successful but like being okay. with that level of success and not. trying to get to. the the next level for what whatever. that looks like. I think so I think so. more than a lot of people I speak to. I think it's I mean there's still. elements in me that are like I can do.

more and I can I can I can take on. bigger challenges in my life but I'm. definitely definitely now detached from. thinking it will have any impact on. the things that matter. Won't make me happier. Won't make me. more fulfilled. Won't make me anything. at all. I'll be doing it. probably for either the wrong reasons. Yep. like just more money therefore I. can get private jets instead of business. class. or. because um my my is not really the wrong.

reason, but just for the challenge of. it. Yep. Um or or thirdly because I want to solve. a problem in the world. Okay. As opposed. to believing that it will make it will. make me it will kill my imposter. syndrome or it will make me feel more, you know, enough. I definitely know that I'm enough. Okay. I definitely know that that much. and I know that that nothing's going to. change that. positive or negative. Yeah. That's good. It's a good place to. Yeah, well, I better because I said it. in the book. It's a nice hope. Um how. how do you think about money? It's a question that you often ask ask. you guys that I I really want to ask you.

cuz. yeah, obviously. you are rich and. but there are there are more levels of. rich beyond what you currently are. So, like. There always will be. And as you meet. people as as as I've met people who are. kind of levels of rich above me. where then then I start thinking, "Oh, maybe. it would be nice to be able to afford to. fly first class everywhere. That would. be pretty cool. Yeah. I I and and I. think I wonder if that would increase my. quality of life. And I and I know that. there's that there's, you know, diminishing returns from money and. stuff, but. Sure. you know, first class versus I.

wonder. Oh, no. Yeah, how do you how do you. think about that? I mean, so I want to. have enough money in my life that I. don't have to do anything. that costs time. that I don't need to spend Okay. uh on things that I don't get joy from. doing. So, like I basically want to have. So, like an airport is a great example. This is why I think I want a private jet. because when I go to the airport, you. could spend 3 hours just checking in and. getting onto the onto the plane and. that's 3 hours that I'd much rather. doing something I enjoy doing with my.

life. Um and I as I talk about in. chapter 19 of Happy Sexy Millionaire, time is what we have. I refer to these. fifth 500,000 chips we have and we get. to, you know, that's because that's how. many free hours the average human being. gets in their life. I would like to have. more of those chips deployable against. things that I really enjoy doing and. creating memories with people I love, not standing in an airport queue for 3. hours. So, if money is going to solve. that problem for me, then money does. matter. Yeah. It's not going to make me. exponentially happier. Like the queue. isn't making me miserable. It's not. going to move the needle, but.

Yeah, but I'd like to make more memories. in my life with with with my niece and. my dog, you know, and and with my. partner. So, that is my view on money at this stage. Okay. Um con- convenience, uh less time. wasted. Yeah. That's literally it. That's literally. it. It offers me nothing else. Okay. Yeah. Well, what do you think of money? I think.

I think convenience is a big thing for. me. Like I also have that thing of. money is useful in so far as it helps me. buy back my time, which I can then use. to deploy against things that I care. about. But then. as I kind of. get exposed to more like rich people and. see like the life that they're living. and like you you know, this idea of. thinking about moving to London. where like I've been living in my flat. that me and my brother have a mortgage. for in Cambridge for the last 3 years. with a lodger and therefore it's.

returning 16% a year cuz I'm not paying. rent, blah blah I'm moving to London. where it's like I I actually can't. afford to buy a place in London. Like I. could afford to rent a place in London, but it's like I could rent for a. thousand a month or two thousand or. three or four or. you know, there's places that are 8,000. a month are pretty good. I wonder what it would be, you know, can I afford to spend 8,000 a month on a. place that's slightly nicer that's a. little bit more central? What am I. optimizing for? Well, if if I get a. place in King's Cross, it's easier for. friends to come visit. Therefore, I can. make more memories. Therefore, increase. happiness that way. Um and the money thing just sort of I.

feel like those those numbers keep on. going up because, you know, then you. could be like, "Well, having a yacht. would be pretty cool because then I can. invite friends on board and then we can. do like jet skiing and stuff. Having a. private jet would be really cool because. then I can like fly wherever I want and. save my 3 hours of time and take my. friends out on a trip. Having enough. money that I'd be able to fly friends. over to visit me would be sick for my. personal happy and. I don't know. I feel like the more I. think about this, the more I start to. invent justifications for trying to make. more money Yeah. for the sake of of. happiness and and fulfillment and stuff. Mhm. beyond the 75,000 a year that the.

studies will tell us leads to. diminishing returns. I think the key. thing there and what I've what I said in. my answer is that I don't think it will. make me happier because I'm I'm already, I think, at I don't think missing the. airport queue will actually make me. happier. Yep. I don't think it will. because unfortunately. fortunately, I'm at a point where I. don't think I could be happier. Okay. Yeah. No, I Like I I could definitely. have less less annoyances in my life. Yeah. But fundamentally, I don't think I. could be. happier than this. Okay. Um or more.

fulfilled or like comfortable than this. So, me killing the queue by getting a. jet is um is is removing an annoyance. and increasing the the yeah. The how intentional I am with my time. two chips that you'll have. means it's not going to move the needle. Okay. It's not going to move the needle, like, you know, and if this place was. where we are now, which is my home. I. live upstairs. If it was two times. bigger, would I be happier? No. Mhm. No, I wouldn't be. No.

Okay. But. you know, I'll probably get a place two. times bigger. Yeah. Because I don't. know. I then I can have bigger parties. and maybe that will. will be a more and more enjoyable memory. at some point. But I don't I have this. is the key thing is I had to at some. point in my life realize like not buy. into the [ __ ] justification or I'd. live my life running running in that. direction constantly. And I say all these things about it's. not going to make me happier. Yep. And if I still want it, then I think um.

then I'm then it's it's okay for me to. buy. It's like. Yeah. Yeah, I kind of I kind of have. have similar things. So, often. I will like. buy something. You know, I I bought one. of those 6,000 pound Pro Display XDRs. with the thousand pound stand that Apple. sell the other day just cuz No one knows. what that is. It's like a ridiculously expensive. monitor that Apple sell for like. professionals and I really didn't need. it, but it was like it would be kind of. cool to have on my desk. And I knew. there was zero way it was going to make. me any happier. I was like, "Oh, it's. just it's just kind of cool." And my.

housemate was like, "Oh, your your. monitor's arrived. How do you feel?" I. was like. Like just even even contemplating how I. feel as a result of the fact this. monitor arrived was just kind of a bit. baffling to me cuz obviously it doesn't. make any difference to my day-to-day. happiness. It was just something kind of cool that. I could buy as a business expense and I. thought kind of why not. I think when I. was younger I used to look forward to. purchases more. Like, you know, ordered. a PlayStation game and we tracking the. delivery waiting for it to arrive. And I. just like it's just it's just kind of. things. Um.

And and the way I often describe it to. people is that. it prob-. maybe sounds a bit arrogant, but it's. like I feel like my happiness is a 10. out of 10 right now and I really can't. imagine that changing, but. it's still kind of cool to spend money. on the things that I want to spend money. on. Yeah. If it's like tech or camera. gear or something like. Yeah. Something I care about. Yeah, I. completely agree now. And I I actually. don't think I'm a very um flashy person. Right now, I don't own a car at this. exact moment. Um I don't have like. designer watches or anything and. typically if I make a purchase, it's.

based in utility, but it's really nice. Yeah. And that's kind of what you were. describing with your monitor. Yeah. So, like I travel a lot. So, a suitcase, I'll get a really nice one. Yeah. But I don't need a Rolex cuz let's. be [ __ ] honest. No one uses it to. tell the time anymore. So, that would be. purely about signaling and status. Yeah. Um I don't really buy designer clothes. at all. I don't really think I have any. designer clothes clothes. I don't really I mean, I have my I have. a nice pair of boots or something. Yeah. But typically it's like I mean, this is. like a Topman t-shirt I'm wearing from.

ASOS. These are Topman jeans. Fits. pretty well. Yeah, they sort of utility. and fit and matter seem to matter more. than um. insecurity driven purchases. There's. there's one mental model that I I often. think of, which is that if if you were. the only person in the world, would you. still buy the thing? Yeah. Um and I. think when it comes to like new Apple. products, yes, I would because Yeah. it's like I just yeah, I can do I can do. my work better on a nicer MacBook or on. a on a nicer screen. Uh but yeah, certainly I probably wouldn't get an. Apple Watch if I was the only person on. earth cuz I think the utility of that is. more signally and more about like this.

is the sort of identity I want to. portray to other people than it is about. the fact that having an Apple Watch for. me, given that I'm not into running, is. is actually useful. You've read a lot of books, mental. models about mental models and various. other things. What are some of the the. key principles or key sort of mental. models that have had the biggest impact. on your life? Ooh. Um. There's so many I can imagine that it's. quite hard to. Yeah, I think one of the main ones is is. is this thing about the the money. diminishing returns curve about like. beyond about 50 to 70k, depending on.

what study you look at, money doesn't. buy more happiness. And I often have to. like remind myself of that when I get. into this cycle of. the pursuit of more stuff. Um one of the things I won't I won't. really call it a mental model, but one. of the the things I often come back to. is Oh, I think you talk about it in the. book as well. Five Regrets of the Dying. Oh, yeah. Um and I had have those. written on the top of my to-do list on. my daily to-do list template. Um. that's the the that's a good one. The other one is. that? For anybody that doesn't know. Oh, yeah.

So, there there was this like palliative. care nurse or someone who Bronnie. Sorry? Bronnie Ware. That's the one. Yeah, she messaged me on Instagram when. Oh, no way. when I don't One time I like. didn't tag her So, she was like, "Oh, yeah, thank you so much for the post. Could you tag me?" But yeah, Bronnie. Ware. She's amazing. Brilliant. Yeah, so. she wrote a book called um The Regrets. of the Dying or the Top Regrets of the. Dying where she interviewed like. hundreds of people who were on their. deathbed asking them, "What are your regrets?". Um and some of the really common ones. were I wish I'd lived a a life true to. myself rather than what others expected. of me.

Uh I wish I'd worked less hard. I wish. I'd spend more time more time with. friends and family. Um can you remember. what what the other ones are? I Do you. know what? I only focus on the first. one. Yeah. Cuz she was like she said. this was the most common regret of the. dying was I wish I'd lived a life true. to myself and not what others expected. of me. Yeah, following your in-. intrinsic motivation rather than status, prestige, external Exactly. Yeah. sounds. like the other ones are all actually. just in the box. offshoots of that. Yeah. And people as they're about to die. must have this amazing retrospective. clarity over there what they did and.

didn't do right, what did and didn't. matter. It didn't matter that that girl. in playground said my hair was [ __ ] Or. this comment on Instagram. And that. retrospective clarity cuz I I see this. in the book as well. This is about the. I talk about how I don't think anybody. believes they're going to die. Yep. And those people know they're going to. die. Yeah. So they have that like it's all all the. [ __ ] just fades away and they go, "I. just want one more day with my son.". Yeah. But also it's it's it's not quite the. same as the whole live everyday as if it. were you as if it were your last. Like.

there's that that balance there. How how. do you how do you think about that. balance? Yeah, I mean so that's actually. like fundamentally bad advice because if. I were to live today like it was my. last, I would probably be doing. self-destructive things. Yeah. Like. they're going to be self-destructive. financially. Yeah, yeah. Like. financially I'd be blowing all my money. Like you So um or something like that. But the merit in that that I see is um. is living like life itself will come to. an end um at some point. Um.

which for me means being very conscious. about the use of. uh your time, I guess, and what you're deciding to do. If you If today were your last, you'd be. able to cut through the [ __ ] that. doesn't matter. And so let's say if this. life were your last. Live every life. like it was your last would be a better. thing. Then you. Yeah. You'd really focus on what. matters. You know, you've talked about. such a diverse range of topics on your. YouTube channel.

And really about like help you know, helping people as you know, as the. teacher you are. become better at what they're trying to. achieve. You talked about productivity, mindset, um finance, and all of these. things. What are What are the What are. the things that you see in young people. today that you think um. they most need to solve and understand. about let's say hm about mindset in. order to get to that point where they. are um living a fulfilled life? What are some of the you know,

And I I say this to you because I know. how many how many how many books you've. read. Thinking specifically here about. like young people and you're see you're. seeing them in the comment section. You're seeing the problems that they're. trying to solve in their life. I think the main one that I see is a. mindset that work has to be suffering. And. that. like working hard is like a bad thing. and that. what it looks like if you're. if you're striving for something is that.

it it looks like pain. Um. This is very much the mindset I had. going into medical school where it's. like, "Oh, I'm now a first year medical. student at Cambridge University. This is. This is supposed to be hard. You know, let's get all my big textbooks out. Let's like spend ages in the library, you know, pulling all-nighters thinking. it's a badge of honor because this is. what work looks like and it looks hard.". And. in my from my second year onwards where. I realized, "Hang on. Like you know, the. the thing Tim Ferriss often says like. what would this look like if it were. easy?". I think.

if more young people accepted that work. doesn't have to be suffering, it can. actually be easy and fun and you can. have it all provided you find ways to. make it fun and optimize for the things. that are enjoyable. That will solve a lot of kind of. problems when it comes to the things. people often ask me about which is. motivation, procrastination, burnout, and and all that jazz. I think another kind of underrated tip. which the toxic productivity people. would would crucify me for is that I. think. everyone kind of like if you want to if. you want to live a life on your own.

terms, then you do have to solve the money. problem. Because we all need to make money. We. all need to have that like in in board. games, we call it you you call it as an. an economic engine. Well, like if you if. you want to win in a board game, you. always have to figure out are you going. to sell sheep? Are you going to get. wood? Are you going to get oat? Are you. going to get hay? Like what is your. economic engine going to be? And I think the sooner. A the sooner that can be ticked as a box. or the more aligned the economic engine. can be with the thing you actually find. fun,

uh the more you can do that thing of. living life on your terms. Cuz what I never want to be in the. position of is where you know, that. thing of, "Well, I just got to work the. 9-to-5 so I so I can enjoy the 5-to-9.". Because that's like 80,000 hours of our. lives, 80,000 chips out of the 500 that. we're squandering away uh just to. survive. And obviously there's. it's it's that's so much easier said. than done and a large amount of being. able to tick that money box, being able. to build that economic engine is based. on kind of privilege and where you've. grown up and circumstances and all that.

stuff. But I guess kind of from from. where you're sitting, you never had that. sort of privilege growing up and you. kind of succeeded despite it and. Yeah, it's just that that thing of. accepting. I think a lot of a lot of young people. especially like the Gen Z the the Gen Z. folks these days. are in that mindset of. I care about impact. I don't care about. money. Hm. I think it's very hard to. live a fulfilled life if you're not like. if. if you think in that way because then. it's like, "Oh, not going to talk about. money. It's weird that people talk about.

money on the internet, etc. etc." So. those would be kind of two things that I. would love to. implant into young people's brains. Yeah, that's really interesting one. I. There's been this absolute groundswell. over the. last couple of years of I think. millennials are guilty of it too. Just. all of them want to change the world. And. they don't really have a plan or have a. specific route to changing the world. Um. um or having an impact, but they just. want to lead with that which sounds to. me a lot like virtue signaling because I.

think the people that end up changing. the world are very specific about how. what they're going to do and it's a very. passion driven. It's very like specific. passion driven. So they'll say. uh you know, someone that does actually. want to change the world won't actually. start with the end in mind. They'll. start with I want to study medicine so I. can understand cancer. And they'll change the world. Not the. Gen Z that says, "I want to I want to. change the world." Or "I want to have a. big impact." And you go, "What what you. want to impact?" Yeah. Yeah. They go, uh. let's the world. How? You're asking too many questions.

I want to have And then that So for me, whenever I see that in my DMs or when a. kid comes up to me uh when I've been. speaking on stage or something and goes, "I want to be a public speaker." I go, "Well, what do you want to talk about?". It's like, "Uh. Go and have Go and live a life worth. talking about. Like go and have an. experience. Go like go through some. [ __ ]. And then you'll the consequence is. you're a public speaker. I had no. intention of ever being a public. speaker. It's a consequence of of of having some. creating a life where I had some [ __ ] to. talk about, you know? And I think younger generations have.

that the wrong way around. They're so. obsessed about, "Oh, wouldn't it be. great to create an impact?". But Have you Have you come across um. effective altruism? No, I don't think. so. Yeah, so it's like this um this. movement this community that talks about. how um. doing good in the world and like having. an impact is actually like. scientifically measurable and can be. done in evidence-based kind of ways. And. so they you know, there's a a few like. charities and um programs tied to that.

One of them is GiveWell and they uh do. an evidence-based analysis of the. charities in the world to figure out. what is the most bang for your buck. What's the What's the highest ROI on. money donated in terms of lives saved or. some other outcome measures. And you. find that it's some pretty rogue. charities that that come out top on top. here. For example, the Against Malaria. Foundation um on average costs somewhere. between 2,000 and 3,000 pounds to buy. enough malaria nets to statistically be. able to literally save a life. Um and that's like a lot cheaper than. most people would think. And if someone.

were to say to you now, you know, Steve, you can donate three grand and you. literally save a life. You'd be like, "Oh, great. I've three grand.". And And so the idea behind effective. altruism is that given that like that. you can actually measure the impact of. charities. Um And where I was going with. this is that. you can therefore measure the impact of. a career and relate it kind of to money. if you need to. So they've done an analysis of what. being a doctor is like. And in the. Western developed world, uh a doctor will save around seven lives.

throughout the course of their entire. career. And this is not taking into account the. fact that if I wasn't a doctor, the next. the next person would have gotten into. medical school and been a doctor in my. place because in the UK, we have more. people applying to medicine than there. are places. If you are the only doctor. in I don't know. sub-Saharan Africa or in in in a country. or something and then you stop being a. doctor, that obviously has a big impact. But most of the people listening to this. are not in that position. And so the way that I think of impact is. in terms of like counterfactual impact. I.e. What is my impact compared to if I.

didn't if I didn't exist, if I wasn't. doing my thing? And I often will see comments on videos. from people being like, "Oh, you're a you're a sellout for leaving. medicine in the middle of a pandemic to. like I don't know make YouTube videos. something something BS like that.". And I'm like, "Yeah, I can I can see why. that's the narrative that you're telling. yourself. But actually, I'm not special. as a doctor. Like I have no unique value. to add as a doctor two years fresh out. of med school. Anyone basically who has. gone through medical training in the UK. cuz it's pretty good medical training.

could do as good a job if not better uh. than I can of being a doctor. But where. I have counterfactual impact, where I am. kind of unique in the impact I'm. providing is in the fact that I have a. YouTube channel that teaches people and. inspires people stuff. And if the kind of the DMs and stuff are. anything to go by, you know, people be. like, "Oh my god, I got into medical. school because of your videos. I was. from this background where no one ever. applied to medicine. No one thought. about going to Oxbridge and I got there, you know, in part thanks to your videos. Thank you so much." And I feel like the. impact I can have on the world by. creating content on the internet and. speaking to a camera in my bedroom is.

arguably greater than the impact I would. have kind of just being a doctor. Not. that there's anything wrong with just. being a doctor, of course. Did you hear that, Mom? Are you listening? At least that's what I try and tell. myself. You say that to her. We'll just we'll. we'll we'll Snip it that. Yeah, Snip it to the video. I'll I'll send it. to us. Have have this? I just uh. stumbled across this. No, but I. completely get that and I think um. I think yeah, I think it and it's funny. because me being. selfish in my life has been the thing. that's allowed me to help more way more. people. Developing my own thinking, my.

own skills, my own ability to do this. stuff has been the the able to create a. platform in which I can help more. And I. spoke to a monk or I think it was a monk. about this when I got to ask this. world-famous monk who was doing this. massive talk in New York. I My one. question was, am I selfish for having. spent the last. 5 years of my life growing wealth and. developing myself and my skills? Um. should I have run off to Africa and. started trying to, you know, save one. life at a time? And his response to me. was that you can't pour out that for.

others that which you don't have. yourself. So, he likened it to a bottle. and said you have to fill the bottle in. and to be able to pour out into other. people's glasses. So, by filling your. bottle, as long as you are being um. you're doing good with your full bottle, then that's a incredibly. a noble thing to be doing. And. Yeah, there's something that um. Naval Ravikant says as well, which is. that if you want to have an impact, then. you want to get rich and you want to get. famous as well because people who are. rich and famous just have more impact. than people who are not because you can. just deploy more capital and social.

capital towards the things that you care. about to make more of an impact. So, optimizing for wealth and fame when. you're young. and while building skills, while having. fun, um. I think, you know, there there are worse. things. Chamath talks about that as. well. Chamath Palihapitiya? Yeah. Is. that his name? Chamath Palihapitiya? He. always he on stage says that. wealth allows you to impose your opinion. and viewpoint on the world. So, he says, who would you rather having all the. money? Some like rich Russian oligarch. who has 75 yachts or me who has a desire.

to um you know, like Elon, like take us. make us multi-planetary and and solve. the carbon problem. And so, with. resources you can impose your worldview. of good or bad, I guess, on the world. And that is impact. Maybe we're just. trying to make excuses for. wanting to be rich and happy. To justify. happy sexy billionaires good for the. world. Yeah, exactly. No. No, but to be. fair, even this podcast, like this. podcast was very expensive. It's very. expensive to run. The equipment's very. expensive and this has been enabled The.

people we're reaching out that are. listening to this has been purely. enabled by by the 5 years of selfishness. in me building a business for myself. I. do this like as I said, I don't even. know if we make a profit. I have not. really looked, to be honest, from this. podcast necessarily. But um I do it. because of the huge enjoyment it gives. me and the impact that we see in the. comment section and the messages we get. And that that is such a selfish thing. for me. It makes me feel really good. Have you have you come across a book. called The Elephant in the Brain? No. Oh, this is like a whole It's like. really well written. It's like all all. of the studies around what drives human.

behavior. And the main thesis of the. book is that uh we're all ultimately. selfish. A lot of the stuff we do is for. signaling. But there is like a PR. secretary in our heads that convinces. even us that our motives for doing. something are not selfish and they're in. fact altruistic. Yeah. Um and there's a quote from. apparently from J.P. Morgan, which is. that a man always has two reasons for. doing something, a good reason and the. real reason. And so, whenever people ask me, why do. you do YouTube?

It's always that, right? Do I want to. say it's because I enjoy helping people. and like making content that inspires? Or the real reason, which it be because. it you know, social status, prestige, money, etc. I like being recognized in. the street. It's kind of cool. I mean, I think it's a bit of both. But. And that's fine cuz that's the truth. Yeah. And and it's the truth for everyone. There'll be someone sat home thinking, no, no, when I give £5 to a homeless. person, I'm purely doing it because I. want to give the money.

I'm sure you want to, but the reason why. is because it might make you feel good. Right? Or because. um it might make you look good. And and if you think I'm wrong, all. you've got to do is go back in history. where is once upon a time. your family members with with very. similar genetics to you might have been. whipping black people. Like and you and you wouldn't have. thought that was a morally bad thing to. do. Society is heavily controlling what we.

think is good, right, noble, virtuous. And as soon as we can admit that, I. think we can actually create a better. world that is vacant of this like virtue. signaling, what's the right hashtag to. use, what am I meant to say, who am I. meant to be for others. I think it's a form of liberation to. admit that to yourself. Yeah. Yeah, I. think that's really good. Um there's a. there's a phrase that a blogger friend. of mine uses called servant hedonism, which is that you like by serving others. uh and and optimizing for serving others. at when you're making decisions in your.

life, you're in fact kind of making. yourself more hedonic, more more more. happy and that is actually a a. reasonable and as long as you can admit. that to yourself, there's that's a pretty reasonable way. of living life. Listen, thank you for. your time, Ali. Thank you. It's been. fun. Yeah, very lots of fun. And you're. you're such a diverse character. That's. really why I wanted to speak to you. because you have such a wealth of. knowledge across multiple sec sectors. and industries and topics and themes and. I find that um and that comes from your. curiosity, I can tell. You're deeply. curious, I can tell. You know, um and.

therefore you this is again also why I. think you've done so well in as a. content creator who's an educator and a. teacher because. you are your curiosity has sent you in. search of answering complex questions. that a lot of people don't actually have. the um the time or the the skill to know. how to answer. And then your ability to. break those conclusions down in ways. that people understand that aren't. alienating, that aren't too big words. for me, Timothy in my bedroom that doesn't. didn't go to Cambridge, is a real skill.

And it's also a testament to the fact. that you actually understand the things. you're talking about. Because being able. to simplify, as we know, simplify. complex ideas is the is the best. evidence that someone understands those. ideas. So, Oh, thank you. That's that's. very kind of you to say. Um and it would. be incredibly gracious to have me on. You've had a kind of big impact on me. The the mental models and the. decision-making, the the chip stuff with. time genuinely has changed decisions. that I've made in my life. Um so, thank. you for that. And if anyone's listening. to this who hasn't read the book, would. recommend. Or the audiobook in particular, which is. narrated by you. Yes. Yeah.

Yeah. You got a book coming soon, haven't you? Uh 2 years from now, so. 2 years from Yeah. I'll reach out to you. to promote that closer to the time. We'll have you back on when you're. ready. Yeah. Thank you so much, Ali. I. appreciate you. Thank you. [Music].