Pierre Poilievre: Why America Is Quietly Abandoning Its Allies (& What Comes Next)

Trump threw the election and then. thereafter said that. >> Canada should honestly become our 51st. state [laughter]. >> which is never going to happen. >> Pierre Polyv, leader of his majesty's. loyal opposition. There's a significant. probability that you could be Canada's. next leader and your team said I can ask. you whatever I want. >> Okay. >> So it appears that the United States. have made the decision to kind of go it. alone in the world. >> and that is a very big strategic. mistake. In Canada's case, we have. everything the United States needs if. they treat us like a friend. So, for.

example, we have the fourth biggest. supply of oil. And if you look at the. leading five, which of these countries. do you think the United States can most. rely on? >> And I'm looking at the third vial there. in the row, Iran. >> Mhm. >> Has Trump taken the right course of. action? >> The Iranian government has been. extremely hostile and very dangerous to. Canada. [music] They are the leading. world sponsor of terrorism. And there's. no doubt in my mind that the only. [music] reason that they are enriching. uranium is for the purpose of developing. a weapon. [music] And there's a far. greater risk to them having a nuclear. weapon than even North Korea. So the.

initial actions were definitely. necessary. >> But how do you think this plays out? And. if Trump had called you and asked for. your support, would you have given it? >> Well, let let's put it this way. >> What is the thing that you're most. concerned about? >> We're overt taxing our population. We're. punishing initiative. We have 20,000. immigrant doctors who can't work in. medicine. Wages have been destroyed. Young people can't start a family in. this economy. And that is why the. working class across the Western [music]. world is so angry. The good news is we. can reverse all of that. >> And the other thing that I actually was.

really keen to talk about is this. >> Wow. >> I can see the emotion in your face. >> Yeah. >> It's still there. >> Yeah. I hadn't thought about that in a. while. This is super interesting to me. My team. gave me this report to show me how many. of you that watch this show subscribe. And some of you have told us according. to this that you are unsubscribed from. the channel randomly. So favor to ask.

all of you. Please could you check right. now if you've hit the subscribe button. if you are a regular viewer of the show. and you like what we do here. We're. approaching quite a significant landmark. on this show in terms of a subscriber. number. So, if there was one simple free. thing that you could do to help us, my. team, everyone here, to keep this show. free, to keep it improving year over. year and week over week, it is just to. hit that subscribe button and to double. check if you've hit it. Only thing I'll. ever ask of you, do we have a deal? If. you do it, I'll tell you what I'll do. I'll make sure every single week, every. single month, we fight harder and harder. and harder and harder to bring you the.

guests and conversations that you want. to hear. I've stayed true to that. promise since the very beginning of the. Dio, and I will not let you down. Please. help us. Really appreciate it. Let's get. on with the show. [music]. Pierre Polyv, leader of his majesty's. loyal opposition. There is so much I. want to talk to you about. I think you. have a truly fascinating formative. childhood. One of which I've I've really.

seldom seen on this show, especially. when the person rises so high in their. political ambitions. But I think the. most appropriate thing to start with. because [clears throat] it's just front. of mind for me at the moment is what the. hell is going on in the world? [laughter]. And I mean that's genuinely I'm I'm up. all night trying to figure out if we're. on the verge of World War II. What's. going on with all these alliances we. used to have? What is going on in the. world? >> The history of starts really in the. post-war period with a massive increase.

in the power and the wealth of the. United States. They unleashed the. capitalist system. They effectively. buried the Soviet Union just by out. hustling, out producing and out. outgrowing until the Soviet Union. collapsed. And then a new authoritarian. power snuck up on the United States. China went from having 80% of its. population living on one less than a. dollar a day to being the second biggest. economy in the world. At the same time, uh, the American working class has been.

thoroughly screwed over by relentless. money printing that has inflated their. cost of living while also inflating the. wealth of of a small group of elites. And I think this resulted in a major. push back. Now, some of that was. justified. That push back is justified, but I also think some of it is very much. unjustified. Tariffing countries like. Canada makes no sense. uh if you're the. United States, you should want more. friends, more trade with those friends. And that's one of the reasons why I've. been touring the United States to make.

the case for Canada and to remind our. American friends that they are stronger. working with countries like Canada and. the United Kingdom than they are pushing. those natural allies away. >> It appears that the United States have. made the decision to kind of go it alone. in the world. I mean, I was at Davos and. I saw what Trump said. I saw a variety. of things in the leadup to there talking. about taking Greenland, turning Canada. into one of the United States 51st. states. Is that what he said? 51st.

state. >> That's never going to happen. >> It seems to be very adversarial. And. through my childhood and through my. adulthood, over the last 30 years, the. US has always been the strong ally, not. an individualistic isolated force in the. world. What's what's going on here? >> I think that is a very big strategic. mistake. Uh I think America would be. better off working with the the. traditional Western alliance that helped. win the Cold War. Uh we had a very big. menace as a nuclear armed Soviet Union. that was expansionary. Its empire was.

pushing eastward into Europe and the. response of the United States was to. build a strong NATO alliance and then to. unleash its economy to just outproduce. the Soviets and bring them to their. knees. In Canada's case, we have. everything the United States needs uh if. they treat us like a friend. We have the. fourth biggest supply of oil. >> You can see it here. >> That's right. We could uh maybe pull. that over here. This is the oil reserves. by country. As you can see, Canada is. number four. And after us is Iraq and.

then the United States. But if you look. at the leading five, which of these. countries do you think the United States. can most rely on? Is it Venezuela, Saudi. Arabia, Iran, or Iraq? No, it's Canada. It works very well with American. refineries and we sell it to the United. States at enormous price discount. Furthermore, we could build up an. enormous reserve of this oil so that if, god forbid, the straight of Hormuse were.

to be closed, just a random example, you're from the American America's. friends in neighboring Canada would have. a couple hundred millions barrels that. are already produced and ready for use. uh if uh if it's needed. So this is. really uh kind of rocket fuel for the. Canadian economy, but it's strategically. important for our American friends. We. could cooperate better on this if we got. a friendly posture and a fully.

tariff-free trade ar arrangement with. the US. What's interesting when I look. at these uh vials of oil that we have on. the table and I see that Venezuela's. number one, Saudi Arabia is number two, Iran, Canada, Iraq, and then the US is a. lot of these countries that have a lot. of oil are in conflict with the United. States right now. >> That's right. >> And it now as I look at this, it seems. like I understand why. So, Venezuela, I. mean, Trump just flew in and took the. leader of Venezuela and his wife out of. bed and sees the country. Iran, US are. at war with Iran now. Um, Iraq, I mean,

that's a a story already. And Canada has. been the other one where it's been. incredibly adversarial over the last. couple of months. Is this just all about. oil? >> Frankly, we don't really understand what. the dispute with Canada is about because. we've been a very good and friendly. partner to the United States ever since. the early 1800s before we even formed as. a confederation. What I would say to. Americans though is you shouldn't have. to worry about all of these countries. If you're working collaboratively with. Canada and you're trading freely with a.

a separate country to the north, then. you will not be bound by what happens in. these other less stable and arguably. more hostile countries. What I believe. we as Canadians need to do is use our. natural resources as leverage to get. what we want from this administration. and future ones. What we want is. tariff-free trade for our steel, aluminum, lumber, and automobiles.

And in exchange for that, we can produce. more oil and sell more of it at better. prices to the United States of America. [snorts] Oil is only one part of it. There's also the strategic minerals that. are necessary for, god forbid, modern. warfare, and we have those as well. We. are a resource superpower, and I want to. leverage that to get what we want from. the US and from other nations. >> I'm looking at the third vial there in. the row, Iran. >> Mhm. >> Has Trump taken the right course of.

action in bombing Iran in the way that. he has? And the other question that's I. think on everyone's mind is like, how do. you get out of this? Is is this going to. end? Well, >> the Iranian government has been. extremely hostile and very dangerous to. Canada. They killed 55 Canadian citizens. and 30 permanent residents by shooting a. civilian aircraft out of the sky, PS752, uh for reasons we still do not. understand and with no explanation. whatsoever. They have unleashed agents.

into our communities and streets to. harass the Jewish and Persian. communities of Canada. and uh they are. the leading world sponsor of terrorism. It it is absolutely unacceptable for the. Iranian government to ever acquire. nuclear weapons. And there's no doubt in. my mind that the only reason that they. are enriching uranium is for marshall. purposes. There's no need to enrich it. to the degree they have in order just to. have nuclear power plants. I have no. doubt that they were doing it for u the.

purpose of developing a weapon and if. that were to happen uh it could be. catastrophic for neighboring countries. but also for far away lands if given the. ability to develop uh long range. missiles. So uh we my view and the view. of the Canadian government is that the. Iranian government cannot be allowed to. develop nuclear weapons and any action. to stop them from doing that is. necessary for world peace. Was this. action necessary to stop that in your. view? >> I think that the initial actions were. definitely necessary, particularly the.

bombings four or five months ago to. target the nuclear development sites. But I think any actions to degrade their. nuclear capabilities, prevent them from. ever achieving them is favorable. And I. hope that it will weaken the regime. enough for the people to overtake it and. claim control of their country. >> It doesn't look like that's the case. I. think they've appointed the son of the. Ayatollah to lead the country now and. they seem to be firing at everybody in. the region. There was some reports that. they might have ballistic missiles that.

could reach Europe as well. Yes. And and. this is what we have to stop. I mean the. idea that they are they are carrying out. this aggression simply because they've. been attacked is false. They would have. eventually carried it out. The question. is when and with what means. And if we. had just sort of slept and waited, we. would have ended up with a catastrophe. This is different than North Korea. North Korea was allowed to get nuclear. weapons, but they don't have the same. celestial fundamentalist ideology there. Ultimately, the regime in North Korea is.

interested in its own survival and its. power. >> The regime in Thran has a theocratic. dream. They believe that there's an an. afterlife in which they could be. rewarded for carrying out mass. destruction on what they call the. infidels. They don't respond to. deterrence the same way that Pyongyang. in North Korea would. There's a far. greater risk to them having a nuclear. weapon than than even having that in in. a communist totalitarian state like.

North Korea. But for Canada in this. environment, our superpower is again our. resources. And that's why it has been. one of my major obsessions to unblock. our resources, get them to tide water, accumulate them in a strategic reserve. that would allow us to really flex our. energy muscles in environments like this. and also reduce dependence on regime. like Iran, like Saudi Arabia, like. Venezuela. >> If Trump had called you and asked for. your support, had you been leading the.

government of Canada, would you have. given the support? This is the big. conversation at the moment in the UK. because K Starmmer was reluctant to send. troops originally and it seems to have. irked Trump in an interesting way. >> So our prime minister did support the. attack and I agreed with Prime Minister. Carney on that point. That is distinct. from contributing Canadian soldiers or. sailors and air crew. I'm not proposing. that we send ground troops to Iran and.

we are not in a position right now to. supply a lot of the demands that this. conflict would require. It depends on. what they ask for um before we get an. answer from Canada on what what it is. that we can provide. >> You're someone that knows a lot about. history. You seem to know a lot about a. lot, frankly. Um [laughter]. and I I don't know a lot about a lot. So. when you think through how this could. go, it doesn't appear that the Iranians. are going to roll over very easily. The.

the Iranian leadership are going to roll. over very easily. Trump doesn't appear. to be a man that likes taking hits to. his ego. So it doesn't appear that he's. just going to pull out and let you know. things unravel. Uh and then the third. option one would say is that they double. down even further and send troops to the. region. What how do you think this plays. out based on everything that you know. about both history about Trump and from. your pattern recognition? >> Well, it could go a variety of ways. Remember the first Persian Gulf War, George Herbert Walker Bush decided that. he had downgraded and penalized Saddam.

Hussein enough for the invasion of. Kuwait. >> He declared victory and he moved on and. ultimately that left a lot of stability. in the region. his son then went and and. and pursued a full uh out-and-out regime. change and that was a much longer. enterprise. Uh the the president will. have to decide which of those two Bushes. he uses as a model. But I think that the. important thing is to know what the. objective is for me. The objective has. to be to make sure that the Iranian.

government never gets the capacity to. send long range nuclear missiles to. countries uh or even short and medium. range to Israel for that matter. Beyond. that, I think it's up to the Iranian. people to take advantage of the weakness. of the regime and rise up and reclaim. their country. I I I don't think this. regime has popular support. Uh I know a. lot of Iranians, we're blessed to have a. lot of very secular, pro-western. Persians who live in Canada, are proudly.

Canadian, and they will tell you that. there's almost no support for the regime. among the people of of Iran. Mhm. >> They need to find a way to overturn the. regime. Uh, and that would that would. give a a lot of comfort and peace to the. rest of the world, but it would also. give democracy to a deserving people. >> What would you do if you were Trump? >> Oh, that's a good question. Um, [laughter]. >> and no offense to. >> like I said, I would focus on the core. objective of making sure that there's.

not a nuclear armed Iran without getting. involved in a permanent quagmire. So. everything's been bombed now. Fordo has. been bombed. So is this the time to pull. out then? >> I think it all depends on the. intelligence they have about the nuclear. capacity. That that is the the hinge. point. We cannot allow a nuclearpowered. um Iranian military. That is what they. they need to determine. >> For me at the moment it looks a little. bit like it's a little bit lose-lose for. Trump in an interesting way. And I think. this is also reflecting the fact that.

nobody really has a perfect answer for. what to do next because it's all just. trade-offs. That's right. >> That's right. I mean, that's what the. the great uh Thomas Soul said. There's. no solutions, just trade-offs in life. >> And it's hitting the the price of um gas. at the pumps in a big way. >> Yes. >> A way that concerns you or. >> Well, it's funny you [snorts] should ask. because it shouldn't have to concern. Canadians. Our enormous supply of oil. should actually insulate us from it. Normally what what used to happen in.

Canada is when the global price of oil. rose, our dollar would rise with it. because people would be buying more of. our oil, which meant they had to first. buy our dollar. A more powerful Canadian. dollar meant that we had more buying. power for internationally priced. commodities like oil and food. So, we. used to be protected from international. oil price increases in a way that we're. not anymore because our sector is no. longer as strong and as big as it was as. a share of our economy. And so, uh, what.

I want to do is unleash oil production. in Canada, clear, uh, the regulatory. bureaucracy, the government gatekeepers, get rid of industrial carbon taxes, and. have a stronger dollar that makes life. more affordable and much more. geostrategic power in the world. >> There's a quite significant probability. that you could be Canada's next leader. And for you to achieve all those things. you've just described, you'll need to. have, you know, productive relationship. with the United States. Trump if all.

follows the law won't be able to be. elected. So it'll probably be a. different leader by the time that you. were in power. Although I know that you. know there could be a vote of no. confidence which mean that you could get. into power earlier. >> Your relationship with Trump good, bad, indifferent. >> I've never met him. >> I've never spoken to him. No, I don't. have. No. Um I made the decision that uh. we have one prime minister at a time and. because we are negotiating a trade deal. or it's more like a review of an. existing deal uh I don't want our side.

as Canadians to be divided even though I. obviously disagree with my prime. minister on a whole range of policy. issues. I don't want to uh undermine in. any way the the Canadian side of the. bargaining table. I would only do that. kind of conversation with a teamwork uh. with the current government. But what. I've said is that our approach visa be. Trump should be to focus on what we can. control. So why not focus on what what. we can do at home? Um unlock our. resources, build up a strategic reserve. of of minerals that are important to our.

American friends, but also to our other. allies. Clear the way to export more. goods to overseas markets. uh build. alliances with the United Kingdom, New. Zealand, Australia uh to diversify and. become more self-sufficient. >> You keep using this word unlock. >> Yes. >> And clear the way. >> Yes. >> What are you referring to when you say. clear the way and unlock? >> Removing bureau bureaucratic obstacles. Um the the resources we have are.

massively profitable for the private. sector to mine, refine, store, and ship. as long as they can get the permits and. the low enough taxes to do it. So we. need to remove those obstacles so that. it now becomes uh possible for private. investment, not subsidized by. government, no handouts for business, but private investment to unlock and. unblock those resources. You're just. saying there you don't want to get in. the way of Mark Carney.

>> Well, I I don't want to get in the way. of of negotiations with a foreign. country. I obviously my job is to to be. his opposition in the House of Commons. on domestic issues and even on. international issues, but not to do so. in a way that undermines the national. interest. >> A lot of countries aren't like that. It. was interesting because you're on Joe. Rogan's show. It's got a global. audience. >> Yes. >> So, you know, if you talk about him. there, you're talking about him all over. the world. And you said you wouldn't. criticize the leader of the opposition. unless you were in Canada. But you know.

that you know you're reaching everybody. everywhere all the time. >> That's true. >> No, that's true. That's true. But uh I I. just think it's it's a good principle to. follow particularly during a negotiation. that's happening across the border in. that country. like you know I think it. would be a little different if we were. in normal times and there was no trade. dispute or if we were in a country with. which we have no particular contention. that for me to say something critical. about the government's policy back home. would not have any repercussions for the. nation but particularly over the next.

several months while these talks are are. hopefully going to go on uh I want to. get the best outcome for Canada and I. have to put my country above myself. >> Why are you better than the current. leader of the Canadian government? Well, what what what is it you offer that is. better than what he has to offer? >> My mission is to make Canada the most. affordable. uh freest and richest country in the. world. My upbringing, I grew up in very. humble beginnings. I grew up surrounded.

by working-class people. Yeah, these are. my folks. Yeah, that's an old one. >> Got a photo of you there and your your. parents and your is it your stepbrother? Your half brother? >> Half brother. Yes. So, uh it's my dad. and my my mother. or they were school. teachers. Uh my brother is my half. brother because we came from the same. biological mother but a different. biological fathers adopted into the same. family. Kind of a complicated story. >> Your biological mother adopted you at 16. years old. >> Put us up for adoption at 16 years old. She was 16 and then um then about 3.

years later she had another little boy. and he Patrick was then uh adopted by. the same parents. >> And they were two teachers that adopted. you and Patrick. >> Yes, that's right. Yeah. I still. remember when we went to pick him up. It. was uh so we we went to this um we got a. phone call and he said, "There's a. little boy who happens to be half. brothers with your with with Pierre. Would you like to to adopt him, too?". And he said, "Absolutely." So, we went. over to this building and we walk into. this room and there were all these rows. of babies. >> and uh you know, we walked past them and.

then we said, they said, "That's him. right there." And that was when I met my. brother. You know, we picked him up. That's why I thought that's where babies. came from. There was a store. you know, we go to a store and get your your. groceries. There's a store where you can. go and get a baby. That's what I thought. cuz that was my first experience with. it. And um we brought him home and and. we grew up in working-class. neighborhoods. When I was about 3, fourish, uh we lost everything. We got. smashed by high interest rates. My. mother had had saved up enough to buy. two little rental properties. We lost.

those and our home and had to borrow. from our grandfather to get a down. payment so we'd have a place to live. My. dad was driving this old mobile that was. falling apart and our neighbors were, you know, workingass folks. They were. just, you know, electricians, uh, oil. workers, police officers. So, that's. those are the people I grew up with. And. I always grew up admiring those those. people, uh, admiring what they were able. to do and believing that they were. generally taken advantage of by. government, never listened to, and.

definitely and kept on the outside of. decision-m. And my mission has been to bring back. what I call the promise of Canada that. uh anyone can achieve anything. It. doesn't matter if you start off as an. adopted kid uh raised by school teachers. uh or you know an immigrant from. Batswana who uh grows up really poor. If. you you work at it, you should be able. to buy a house uh launch a business, become a you know a famous global. podcaster uh or maybe cure a disease.

And that was what Canada was all about. And that is what I'm trying to. reinstate. >> What age do you get to meet your. biological mother for the first time? >> 21 22. My adopted mother was very. gracious because I said I won't meet my. biological mother without the permission. of my adopted mother. She did all the. work of raising me. all the hardships, all of my she put up with all of my. rambunctiousness and teenage years and. uh drove me to hockey practice and you.

know emptied her bank account to pay for. our food and stuff. So I did not want. her to feel like she was going to be. left behind or forgotten about or. replaced. And I asked her, you know, would you be okay if I met her? And she. said, "Yes, of course, cuz I won't. always be here and I always want you to. have a mother." And I thought that was. um a really incredible thing to do. because it's so big part such a big part. of um a mother's identity is that they. are the mother of that child. But to.

have a love that's so much deeper than. that personal identity or interest is. something I'll always remember. It's one. of the most gracious things I've ever. seen. >> I can see the emotion in your face as. you say it. >> Yeah. >> It's still there. >> Yeah. I hadn't thought about that in a. while. What beautiful people. >> Yes, we're very blessed. And uh. um and it's and it's it's it's people. like these that inspire me that uh keep. me going in in uh in this crazy world of.

politics. >> So you get to meet your biological. mother at 21, 22. >> Yeah, around that. >> Yeah. >> What does one say? What are the. questions one needs to ask if any? I'm trying to remember. We went on we. went on a bit of a road trip from uh. Ottawa to Montreal and we just got to. know each other. Uh she had a lot of uh. questions about how my life had been and. uh I had a lot of questions about our. our biological family, about her father.

who was a really great man. I would go. on to meet a great Irishman. and um the circumstances that led to my. my conception and and birth. And I. really came to understand her decision. to put me up for adoption. And I've. never been resentful for it at all. She. she was 16. She just lost her mother to. a heart attack. She um didn't have a lot. of means. And she just made a selfless. decision that we would have more. opportunity if we were raised by someone. else.

>> Did you ever learn anything about your. biological father? >> Yes. Yeah. He he works at at a um a. concrete plant in British Columbia. And. so I went and met him. He's a great. father with children that that he. subsequently had and raised and and so. he he's a very good man as well. And my. my adoptive father is a a teacher and uh. he gave me a lot of uh wonderful lessons. and I think is responsible for my way. with words. >> Marlene and Donald.

>> That's right. >> So Marlene's your adopted mother. Donald's your adopted father. They. divorce when you're 12 years old. >> Yes. It would be around that time. I was. in grade five. very difficult time for parents to. divorce. Very difficult time. I remember. that that period of life very very. clearly because I remember one day my. parents coming to me and telling me that. they didn't love each other anymore that. they were going to get a divorce. They. didn't. >> Okay. >> But I remember bit which you know I. think did enough damage for [laughter]. but it was around that age and I I. remember where I was stood in the house. I remember what I was wearing when they.

said that to me cuz it's. earthshattering. >> It is actually. >> I just can't I can't unforget it. It was. it was traumatizing. Well, we were my. dad told me and he wanted to tell me. alone. So, he we we got into uh the car. He said he wanted to take me for a drive. and we drove to the local corner store. and we parked in the car and he told me. that there. But it is very traumatizing. and um but at the same time like they. were very very good parents. So, I I I. don't judge them for how they ended up.

uh apart. Uh we were very blessed. Uh, you know, they gave me a great start in. life. Even though they weren't together, they they loved us very much and they. gave us all all they could. >> And Donald would would eventually come. out as gay. >> That's right. >> One would assume that he was dealing. with the conflict of feelings. >> Yes. >> For much of the time, >> he had been raised in a very devotly. French Catholic household and that's why. we have a French name. And before he got. married, he'd even consider going into. the priesthood and he so he was a very. devoutly Catholic person. He genuinely.

loved my mother, but obviously he wasn't. programmed uh that way. You know, he has. a wonderful partner and we're friends. with uh very close with him and his. partner Ross right now. >> Do you see how that's changed you as a. man um as you've grown up, whether it's. your sort of your perspective on what. love and romance is or anything else? I. think that if everything just been, you. know, white picket fences and, you know, hu, you know, totally predictable and as. then then I wouldn't be the kind of. person I am today. I think it's also,

you know, it's it's like you I would you. have been as successful as you are if. you had had a very easy childhood? I. doubt it. I bet all the the hardships. that you had and the the twists and. turns that took you from Batswana to the. United Kingdom and and then onward. probably gave you some superpower. And. so uh this I think it gave me the chance. to understand that you have you don't. judge people. You you love them for who. they are. My parents also taught me an. important lesson that uh Shakespeare.

says to thine own self be true. Um my. mother had when she was a a small baby, she was in a car accident and her. fingers were burned off and she had. horrible scars um horrible burns on her. hand at the time. And as I got to my. adolescence, I said to my dad, um did it. ever bother you when you started dating. her that she she had this injury? And he said, "No, because it didn't. bother her. She was totally at peace and.

she never hid it." It wasn't long after. we met that I forgot it was even there. And the message that I took from that is. be yourself. Don't try to hide the. scars. Scars are the trophies of. survival. So those are some of the the lessons. that my mother and father taught me. And. my dad was the same about who he was. He. just lived his life unapologetically and. openly and he never apologized for who. he was. And that has stayed with me.

When you speak of Marlene, you you speak. up with her with a great fondness and. expression in your face that you know I. sit I've sat here six 700 times. So you. get to see who matters most to people in. their lives just by looking at their. face. And she's she's clearly on the podium. >> Yeah. She's a very feisty little lady, very short and very uh very forceful. She she taught me a lot about being, you. know, pugnacious and fighting for what. you want and what you need in life. and. um [laughter] and we argued a lot when I.

was a kid and I think that maybe forged. some of my current uh political uh. argumentation as well. My wife is a has. a big part of it as well. She's a very. strong feisty intelligent lady with an. incredible upbringing as well. She's a a. refugee from Venezuela and came with. really nothing. And so she has this sort. of maggyver like skill set to to get. anything done no matter how difficult. the logistics. So I've been very very uh. blessed with strong women around me.

>> At a very young age, it appears that you. took a a liking to politics. I mean you. I mean you mentioned hockey first and. Marlene taking you to hockey. I've got a. found a couple of photos of you playing. hockey which I found to be quite. interesting but um. >> yes. >> but politics when did politics come into. your your psyche? >> I would have been uh kind of in my mid-. teens. Well, I I got into football, hurt. my back in football, so I couldn't stay. on the team. My mother had always gone.

to these sort of local conservative. meetings. Um sometimes just bringing. baked goods or uh attending a volunteer. meeting. And I said, "Well, why don't. you bring me to one of those cuz I'm. bored out of my skull." And she did. This gives me meaning. This gives me. purpose. I want to go and pursue this. So, I started getting more and more. involved. I got an internship uh making. almost no money and uh and dressing up. in a used suit and really threw myself. fully into this mission. >> One of the books that I um I realized.

you'd read at that time from some. research is this book Adam Smith the. theory of moral sentiments. >> Yes. So this is this really this book. has to be accompanied by its more famous. sister book which is the wealth of. nations which that's the book that most. people know Adam Smith for. think of him. as kind of the father of capitalism. because in 1776. he wrote this book which described what. we now call the free market system. And. this was a really revolutionary idea.

because up until then we basically had. various forms of feudalism. >> What's that? >> Where a small group of lords and knights. and aristocrats control all the land and. the the the great masses do all the. work. And so you called them surfs. They. would uh do all the heavy labor and then. the lords of the manor would would take. all of the benefit. Along came the. system of free enterprise that Adam. Smith describes which is basically it. has a very simple premise voluntary.

exchange of work for wages, product for. payment and investment for interest. And. that the economy rather than being. guided by the iron fist of the king or. the state is guided by the invisible. hand of the free market. And this had. been it had been thought that this was. crazy. How could the economy just sort. of run itself? And the answer is through. price signals. If the price of something. goes up, people just automatically start. making more of it. And if you need more. workers to make that thing, well, you. raise the wages and all of a sudden,

what do you know? The workers arrive. And this system is absolutely ingenious. Like, it's why when you go into a coffee. shop and you buy your coffee, you say. thank you. They don't say you're. welcome. They say thank you because they. have something worth more to them than. they had before, the money, and you have. something worth more to you than you had. before. And this voluntary exchange puts. everyone on equal scale. Even if you're. a massive corporation, you want to sell. something to a 15-year-old kid, you have. to convince them that's worth more than. the cost. So, everybody has to be better.

off in the exchange for it to occur. And. that was how free enterprise formed. And. it has led to a spectacular increase in. the quality of living and the economic. growth 200fold increase in economic. growth in the in the free enterprise era. versus the feudal era. So a lot of. people thought Adam Smith is only. interested in a in a system where people. are out serving themselves their. self-interest. That's what they took. from the statement in the wealth of. nations that it is not from the b. benevolence of the brewer, the baker or.

the butcher that we get our meal but. from his own self-interest. But that was only half the story. The. other half was in this book called the. theory of moral sentiments in which he. explains how self-interest overlaps with. virtue. So what he said is that we have. something called fellow feeling which is. to say we feel for the other person and.

we feel good when someone else does. good. It's why we explain that you know. people donate to charity or they leave. the door open for a stranger or they. might help an injured person uh on the. street because they feel bad when they. see someone else their fellow suffering. and they feel good when they see him. succeeding. And that's why it's called. sentiments because you feel these. things. I saw this in my own son. He um. for the first time he got a little toy. and he gave it to his sister. It was the. first gift he'd ever given his life. And.

he was so happy. Like he literally ran. in a big circle around our the foyer of. our of our residence and just laughing. and screaming. It just made him so. happy. Happier than she was to even. receive it. And this is the best of. human nature that his interest, his. happiness was served by seeing his his. sister better off. And this is really. laid out in some detail in the theory of. moral sentiments. And it for me it's. like it like brings together all of. human nature in one place. Now he's not.

naive. He does accept that there are. bad, you know, dark angels in our. nature, but he gives the only plausible. explanation that I have seen about how. you intersect self-interest with. altruism. >> And how did that change your perspective. and therefore you know your policies and. your career? I have found that. those who push a socialist ideology have. a gross contradiction. in their view of human nature. They say.

that human beings are wretched, self-interested, greedy when they're in. the private voluntary economy, but. they're angels when they're in the. governmental economy. And therefore they. argue that the government should just. control everything because then we have. all these angels that will decide for. us, decide what we get to where how our. money is spent, what we're supposed to. believe in the modern day what kind of. vehicles we drive, what we should think. Um but that is a a huge contradiction.

If a if a man if man is not capable of. deciding for himself, surely he's not. capable of deciding for others. And I. think the worst the worst vices in human. nature come out when there is too much. power and concentrated in their hands. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. So. my ideology is that we should disperse. power that it should be a bottom-up. system with as much freedom and agency. as humanly possible that people should. be free to choose for themselves and.

that the go the purpose of the. government is to do only those things. people cannot do for themselves. I guess. if there's, you know, socialists. listening now, they might think, well, we tried this sort of capitalistic. approach to the economy and it's. resulted in us being able to buy less uh. food and vegetables for our money. It's. mean the price has gone up at the pumps. People are struggling. It seems that. inequality has widened and the the. working class seem to be struggling more. now than ever before. They can't buy. homes anymore like my my parents or my.

grandparents could could have. So. clearly we need socialism they would. argue because the current system has not. worked. >> Well, what we have now is socialism for. the very rich. We have governments that. are actively redistributing wealth from. the working class to the very very. wealthy. And that is why we see record. inequality. Government is actively. intervening in the economy to forcefully. redistribute wealth up the chain.

>> Up the chain. >> Absolutely. And there are countless. examples of it. When they block home. building with heavy regulations, they. limit the supply of homes. Those who. have mansions therefore are wit richer. because their houses are worth more. But. young people, newcomers, working-class. people can't actually get a home. Uh. that is a one example of state. intervention. Well, we could do maybe do. an illustration here. >> Okay. So, this is um this is the total. amount of land in Canada. >> Yes. >> Where homes could be built. And actually. this is quite reflective I think of the. much of the western world even the UK.

>> and this is a penny. >> Yes. >> Do you you understand this. demonstration? >> Yes. I think what you're trying to say. is that this is about how much land we. live on. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> So um Canada is a great example of this. because we have 10 times as much land. per person as the second closest G7. country. And yet we have the fewest. homes per capita to live in. And why is. that? It's because that the vast. majority of the cost that goes into. building a new home is not land, labor,

or lumber. It's government. It's. government taxes, fees, charges, uh, bureaucracy, lobbyists, consultants. So if you think. of this home here, this home here in Canada, when you buy. this house, more of the money for your. purchase would go to bureaucrats in. office buildings than to the carpenters, electricians, and plumbers who actually. build the home. >> Why? How?

>> Because the bureaucracy has grown like. um any organism in nature which seeks to. to survive and multiply. They uh give us. the second slowest building permits of. any country in the OECD. They charge. enormous development taxes which started. out just to pay for plumbing and and. roads for the the related housing but. now have grown into just a huge cash cow. for local governments because sales. taxes still apply on most new homes. And. all of that gets consp.

In fact, we [music] uh we are the most. expensive in the G7 even though we. should be it should be dirt cheap to own. a home in Canada because we have the. most dirt to build on. Uh and my goal is. to remove all of that bureaucracy speed. have the fastest permits in the world. and and make it tax-free to build homes. so that everyone can afford one. I was. reading some stat that said, again, I. might butcher this a little bit, but it.

said that Canada needs to build between. four roughly 450,000 new homes every. single year until 2035. >> Yes. >> Just to restore affordability. >> That's right. And we're building about. 240,000 per year. So, we need to roughly. double our home building to do that. The. good news is we have 100,000 Well, it's. not good news. We have 100,000. unemployed construction workers who'd be. happy to pick up a hammer and start. building. We have hundreds of billions.

of dollars of investment that's ready to. do it. We have an abundance of land. What we need are fast permits and low. taxes so that we can unlock that. building. >> What is the case for slow permits? >> There isn't one. >> There isn't one. >> Zero. There is no benefit to having slow. permits. They do not protect the. environment. They do not uh protect. public safety. We used to build houses. um a lot faster and they didn't fall. down. After the Second World War, permits were almost instantaneous. We.

had a massive buildup of homes so that. our returning veterans could have a. place to live. In many neighborhoods of. Canada, those homes are still standing. They have not collapsed. There's no I'm. not saying we get rid of building codes. They should all have to follow standards. of environmental responsibility and be. fire resistant and and safe. But it. doesn't it shouldn't take seven years to. approve a subdivision to do that. We we. know how the the developers know how to. build according to the rules. They just. need quick permits and freed up land to.

do it. >> You'd think now with AI you'd be able to. approve these permits within minutes. >> Look, with all the technology, housing. should be so much cheaper than it than. it was before. Uh in fact, everything. should be so much cheaper. But this is. another area where government is re. redistributing wealth from the working. class to the super rich. It's the. monetary inflation where we're creating. cash at a far faster rate than we're. creating the stuff that cash buys. We've. in Canada increased the number of homes.

over the last 10 years by 13%. But we've. increased the money supply by 100%. In. other words, there is now eight the the. growth in the money supply is eight. times faster than the growth in the. growth in the housing supply, >> which means for the average person that. it bids up the price. Now, you might. say, well, if everybody's equally. getting their share of that money, then. who cares? But they're not. There's. something called the Catalon effect, which is that the first people to touch.

the money in a uh monetary expansion are. those who are already wealthy and. already connected to the financial. system. So when government creates cash. to fund its deficits, it doesn't just. dump the the bills out of an airplane. into a suburban neighborhood. It injects. it into the banking system by buying. government bonds at inflated prices. And. those who trade in those bonds are the. first to get the cash. Those connected. to the to the financial system are the. first to borrow it. they get to deploy. it before it loses its value. By the. time it trickles down to the. workingclass people, it's lost its value.

and their wages have been destroyed. And. this has been happening on and off. throughout all of human history. But. it's been particularly bad in the last. 55 years. And that is why I think the. working class across the Western world. is so angry. >> Canada have consistently dropped down. the sort of happiness league table. >> Well, actually from 2015 we've gone from. fifth to 25th. the 18th. We went from. 18th to 25th just in the last year. >> So you were the fifth happiest country.

in the world and now you're 25th. >> That's right. And part of it is food. We. have the worst food price inflation in. the G7 today. It's due to a lot of. hidden taxes that are baked into food. production. Uh we have an industrial. carbon tax that it charges on farm. equipment, fertilizer, and uh food. producers. We have a new fuel tax that's. just come in. single-use plastic is now. banned, which makes it that so that food. goes bad about five days quicker. So, it. sounds kind of very virtuous. We're not.

going to use plastic anymore, but it. ultimately means food uh goes bad and. and somebody pays for that. So, uh we we. need I want to get rid of all of those. taxes and fees and unnecessary. regulations that do nothing for our. health and safety so that we can have. more affordable food. But um more. broadly, we have to get rid of the the. monetary inflation that I described. As. I said, we've doubled our money supply. in Canada from 1.4 trillion to 2.8.

trillion in 10 years. So, it is not. actually that these things cost more. It's that the money with which we buy. them is worth less. >> because. >> because we're creating so much of it. And it's. >> and why why are you doing that? >> To fund deficits. >> to pay for debts. >> That's right. And that's why all. government, it's not just Canada, by the. way, it's across the Western world, they're creating cash to fund deficits. >> And the deficits come from having a big. government. >> Yes. >> Government that's too big. >> That's right. >> That's too involved. >> That's right. And the result is that.

we're we're creating cash faster than we. grow food, build homes, or produce. energy. And my mission, Stephen, is to. flip that. I want us to create more of. what kash buys by unblocking food. production, energy production and home. building so that we add those things. faster than we add what um we add the. cash to the system. >> Why I mean I saw this graph here this. chart which is GDP per capita with. international counterparts. So on there.

it has Canada, United States, OECD and. it shows it's quite stark. It shows that. Canada has basically plateaued in terms. of GDP per capita. What does for the. average person what is GDP per capita? What does that actually mean? >> It's your income really. It's the it it. ultimately the GDP gross domestic. product is the the value of all the. things that you produce. If you're. producing more per person over time, people will see their wages rise, their.

real wages rise. If you don't produce. more per person, then your wages are. flat. And so that is what we've. effectively had in Canada over the last. 10 years. >> Why? [snorts]. >> Because we we are not unlocking our. resources. Our biggest industry is oil. and gas and it's locked behind uh very. aggressive anti-development laws and. bureaucracies because we're we're. blocking home building and because we're. overt taxing our population. We're.

punishing initiative with high taxes. The good news is that we can reverse all. of these things. If we we have the most. prodevelopment, and the fastest permits. in the world, if we cut taxes on work, investment, home building, and energy, then we can massively increase our. output of the things that we need to. have a good life and the wages that. people earn to buy it. >> This seems to be a familiar story across. some Western nations. >> It is. >> What are those Western nations and what. is the thing that they've all got in.

wrong in common? Well, I think that it's probably true in. the UK and the European Union as well. Well, let's take Germany. They shut down. their nuclear sector and they tried to. effectively drive oil and gas out of. their country. The end result was. extremely high energy costs. And this. was another intervention that took from. workingclass people and gave to the very. rich. Those who were able to get the. subsidies for windmills and solar panels. got fabulously wealthy, all very. powerful people. But the workers in the.

in the plants and the mines of rural. Germany ended up losing their jobs and. paying higher prices for electricity. All of which, by the way, has been. reversed because now the Germans are. back to burning coal. So it did. absolutely nothing for the environment. Uh this is another example of government. intervention totally screwing over the. working class, a phenomenon across the. western world. And this is the big lie. The big lie is that when government gets. big, it gives people their fair share. What it does in fact is it gives the. money and the resources to those who.

have the most political power. Those. people are all rich and it pays for it. by taking from the working class. So my. mission in politics is to reverse that. entire approach. Have a small government. with big people, a meritocracy that. rewards work and a free enterprise. system that requires businesses compete. for workers with higher wages and. consumers with lower prices. >> I'm looking here at the GDP forecasts. for various countries around the world. In the United States, uh, GDP forecast. looks like it's, um, it's been pretty,

you know, pretty strong relative to. others. Canada looks like it's going. down. 2025 estimates 1.7%, 26 estimates 1.3. The United Kingdom as. well seems to have been lagging. Um, both the United States and Canada. And. Germany, as you said, in 2024, their GDP. growth was only 0.2, two, which is. hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and. hundreds of percentages lower than the. United States, Canada, or even the UK. But clearly there is a problem with GDP. growth here. >> um for Canada, for the United Sta, for.

the United Kingdom relative to a country. like the United States. It looks like. the United States are doing something. right. >> If you look at GDP growth is the main. measure. >> Look, um there are some policies that we. can learn from. Um it's not just the. United States though. Look at uh look at. Switzerland for example. Uh the Swiss. are among the wealthiest in the world. They have the best money, the lowest. inflation. They have almost no inflation. in Switzerland by the way. They have. very strong money. The the Swiss Frank.

is the best currency in the world, better than the euro or the American. dollar. What do they have? Free. enterprise, small government. the share. of of the economy consumed by government. spending is significantly lower than. anywhere else in the western world um. outside of uh outside of Asia and so. they do very well. How is it that the. Singaporeans have become one of the. wealthiest nations on earth? They have. no resources, literally nothing. They. have to import their water for God's. sakes. They they took an a swampy uh.

mosquitoinfested island and three. peoples who were struggling to survive. in their homelands and they came. together and created the wealthiest. country in the world outside of the Gulf. States. Why? They have free enterprise. They have low taxes. It's easy to start. a business. You're rewarded for your. hard work. This is the kind of thing we. could be doing. >> So looking at the numbers of Singapore, Singapore operates in a league of its. own, outperforming both the UK, Canada, and the USA in terms of growth. um and. per capita wealth as a hub economy. It.

is currently riding the wave of the. global AI boom because they've enabled. entrepreneurship and it is more than GD. from a GDP perspective last year more. than double the United States GDP. growth. Um and I mean it's it's left uh. Canada and the United Kingdom and even. Switzerland in its tracks in that. regard. Interesting. >> It's a spectacular achievement. And I. mean uh Lee Kuanlu who founded the. country and created this miracle uh. should be studied by every leader in the. world. Um because I don't think there's. anyone who's been able to generate such.

a a a massive uh increase in the quality. of life and to do it with literally no. resources whatsoever except for. geography that and they managed to. exploit their geography as you said to. be kind of like modern-day Nabotans. They're a trading hub uh for for all of. Asia. Every sort of economic policy or. philosophy does have a trade-off. >> I mean, it's one thing you learn as a. podcaster. There's just always. trade-offs. And if you're not clear on. what the trade-offs are, then they might. surprise you, >> right? >> I mean, that, you know, you can talk.

about socialism or you can talk about. capitalism, whatever. All of them have. trade-offs. What are the trade-offs of. your economic. strategy and philosophy? >> Well, the the leadership has to have. humility because it has to let go of. power and and and turn it back to the. people. And um that is a very hard thing. for politicians to do. Um I mean uh no. politician wants to have written on. their gravestone. Um he stayed out of. the way, left people alone so that they. could do great things without him. [laughter].

Although I think we'd be better off if. more of them did. But I should also say. that like there is a role for. government. I'm not suggesting that. there isn't. There there should be a. basic social safety net that provides. the things that people who are less. advantaged would not be able to have for. themselves to make sure that everyone. has health care even if uh they can't. afford to pay for it. That there's basic. schooling and roads and infrastructure. But what happens is that once you get. beyond providing those basics and. government starts to to metastasize into. well well uh all kinds of other things.

that are not its core responsibility. each dollar spent has less and less. return and then it turns into a negative. return where the more they spend the. more damage they do and I think we're. beyond that point on the curve. >> because I'm thinking about how. immigration ties into all of this and to. GDP growth. I think in Canada from the. research I was doing there has been a. decline in birth rates. Yes. >> So there's significantly less people. getting married. There's significantly. less people being born. So how does one. run their economy when you're not having.

new children being born without bringing. in lots of immigrants to to help support. that economy? >> Well, first of all, I think we have to. ask ourselves why has the birth rate. gone down? And I I would argue that it's. economic re reasons. Uh if you cannot. afford a home, then you have no place to. raise children. Um, you know, we have. this phenomenon of in Canada of. 35-year-olds still living in their. parents' basements. And h how do you. even get a date? I mean, how do you.

bring a date home? [laughter]. You know, it's it's a challenge if if. you're 35. And these are great high. achieving people who've got jobs, but. they just can't afford a place to live. or they're stuck in a a small apartment. because that's all their paycheck will. buy them in the way of rent. And so I. think for those economic constraints, we. we have a lot of young people who. otherwise would love to have children in. their late 20s, early 30s who simply.

have nowhere to raise them. >> Am I right in thinking that a lot of. these western economies have allowed a. lot of people into their countries to. make up for. the the willingness or desire or the. availability of people to do the sort of. low wage jobs? Is this is what is this. what's happened globally? Because it's. what people tell me in the UK. Yes, I. think I frankly I think that a lot of. multinational corporations have abused. the immigration system in order to drive. down wages. Um in Canada, for example, the government massively expanded um the.

international student and temporary. foreign worker programs and that allowed. corporations to pay artificially low. wages to people who do not have the same. mobility rights and opportunities. and. that drove down wages, displaced people. from their jobs and ultimately ballooned. housing costs. And so my position is. that we need to to cap numbers um and. ensure that the the economy, healthcare. and housing grows faster than the.

population at all times. >> If you cap numbers, does that mean that. these corporations, these entrepreneurs, these companies don't have enough people. to fill the roles in their companies and. therefore have to move somewhere else? What what does it mean? No, we have. unemployment. We have people without. jobs. But they just some multinationals. don't want to pay full wages. So they. think, well, I just undercut the wage by. bringing someone in from a very poor. country who's willing to work for a lot. less and who has fewer rights because. they can't leave the job to go to. another employer. So it's uh kind of. like easy street. And so my view is that.

when you've got unemployed people and. you're trying to fill your workplace, pay higher wages. Give uh give people a. better return on their work. You've got. unemployment. Are those people trained. and skilled and willing to do the jobs. that Canada needs them to do? >> Yes, absolutely. I mean, we have 100,000. unemployed construction workers. They. could be building the homes that we need. built. Uh we have um young people coming. out of um out of high school without a. job. We have a 30-year highs in.

unemployment among youth. They should be. getting those jobs. And you know, Starbucks says, "Well, they don't want. to take them." Well, maybe you're not. paying enough. If you're not paying the. right wage, then you're not going to get. the right worker. But pay an equivalent. wage and you'll attract a worker who. will who will do the job. >> Again, I'm trying to play devil's. advocate here. So, you know, Starbucks. increase wages. Yes. Which means that. Starbucks then will increase the cost of. a cup of coffee presumably. >> Well, unless they can find more. efficient ways to run their systems. You. know, more competition in the system.

will allow the worker to gain more and. the consumer to pay less. and the. entrepreneur in the middle has to find. ways to to save and operate more. efficiently. That's the magic of the. market is that everybody has a a a. vested interest in driving the most. value for the lowest cost. >> One of the interesting ways lots of. employers are finding ways to drive. efficiencies is this new technology. called AI, >> right? >> And again, maybe somewhat ironically. here, Anthropic, who one of the world's. leading AI companies, released a report. two weeks ago. I'll throw the graph up. on the screen, but it shows where job.

disruption will take place based on how. people are currently using their tools. And one of the things they noticed is. that there's been a. increase by I think roughly 14% in youth. unemployment because entry- levelvel. jobs are the ones often in white collar. industries that are being taken out. first, >> right? >> And you hear these things and you go, oh, you know, that's some stats and. whatever and it's, you know, not. necessarily tanked the economy yet. But. as an employer of hundreds and hundreds. of people all over the world now, I have. started to notice that the case for.

hiring certain groups of people is. becoming much more tricky now because of. these tools. And doesn't make me sound. great saying that. It's not that we're. not hiring hundreds of people, but. there's this certain set when I look at. specifically entry level grads. if they. aren't really AI proficient, they are a. lot less appealing in some roles than. people young grads that that are. extremely AI proficient. The problem is. not many of them are. And that just in a. company like mine, if you're AI. proficient, really irrespective of age,

and you know how to build this thing. called AI agents, it's kind of like you. come with 50 team members of your own. >> Wow. >> That's what it's like. So, I've got a. kid called Cass here. You know, he's a. young guy in his 20 his 20ies. He's. built a team of agents that now work for. him. So hiring Cass means I get Cass and. his team of agents because he's. proficient in that technology. Most of. the workforce hasn't been trained. because of the education system to know. a thing about this. So it's becoming. increasingly difficult to to hire entry-. level people but actually all the way up.

the board unless you have deep expertise. in a domain which would mean that I can. get Cass to make you the agents. So like. on my CFO, you know, for example, you. know, 50 50 years working in finance, etc. deep expertise. I just need her and. then she can build out a team of AI. agents to work with her. Back in the. day, if you'd got 5 years ago, I would. have needed her and her to have a. massive team of people, right? >> I say all this to say that there's a. certain group in society, people that.

have deep domain expertise and people. that are technical that I think are in. higher demand than ever before. and. everybody else um as AI continues to. replace them through things like. autonomous driving and um robotics is. around the corner um is I I think there. needs to be a real conversation about. what happens to these people. >> Can I ask you a question? >> So. throughout history we've had these. scares where new technological. developments. have threatened to replace and in. reality have replaced certain human.

labor. So you had like the during the. industrial revolution machines were. replacing muscular power and then you. had the lites who came and tried to. smash those machines to protect their. jobs. In the end they just got different. jobs with higher pay because they could. do more with these machines and they. didn't have to walk behind a you know a. mule's ass pushing a pushing a plow in. the hot sun all day. They had a tractor. that would pull the plow um and so on. and so forth. But and then in the in the. dotcom era, we were told again that. people are going to lose their jobs to.

computers. In fact, they were made more productive. by computers. Do you think this time is. fundamentally different than those prior. technological revolutions? >> I would say first thing is nobody knows. The second thing I'd say is yes. Okay. >> And the reason I'd say yes is just the. speed of disruption. So unlike the in. the industrial revolution where you know. it takes some time for the new. technologies to become adopted because. of the nature of their of what those. technologies were this technology is. built on the internet which has global.

distribution. So open claw is a good. example of a technology that is very to. to simplify it for the audience. It can. do anything on my computer. So if I put a computer here on this. table I can text openclaw on WhatsApp. and tell it to go on this podcast right. now. Look at the part of the. conversation that was most replayed by. the audience. Clip it. Add subtitles to. it. Tweet it or send it to my Slack. channel. I can get it to I'll tell tell. you something I did the other day. I was. in my house in Los Angeles and it was.

very very hot cuz there's a heat wave at. the moment. So I said to it, can you can. you go on take a look at my house online. um buy me a umbrella that I can put. because I like to work outside. I. actually voiced it this and what it did. is it went on Google Maps. It looked all. around my house from all around the. outside because it knew where I lived. for some bizarre reason. It knew that I. charcoal umbrella at a certain size. would suit that table out there. It went. on Amazon, found the charcoal umbrella, it ordered it, arrives at my house, >> and it transacted like you. >> transacted because it had my my login.

details to transact on this particular. website. So, but it's just, you know, the framing is it can do anything that. you would you would do on a computer. um. a lot of people work on computers and. the speed of adoption that we're seeing. is is staggering. So my my concern is. actually the sort of near-term. displacement before we figure out the. types of jobs that um the types of new. jobs and then with robotics on the way, you know, you hear someone like Elon. Musk saying that there'll be more. humanoid robots than humans, you know, and people say, well, you know, he's.

saying that because he's a he's got a. vested interest, right? However, what. I'd say is his timelines have sometimes. not been right. But when he said he was. going to make those spaceships land on. chopsticks, the spaceships eventually. >> Oh, he's a brilliant mind. Don't. underestimate him. >> And my car out there drives itself. [laughter] without without intervention. So, >> I don't know. It's a really interesting. time. I can both see why this techn is. going to change the world for the better. and I believe it will. But then I'm just. really concerned about certain economies. and countries that aren't taking it.

seriously because they're so distracted. by other things. Like a lot of them race. baiting. A lot of them are like. immigration seems to be the winning. lever. Like just say the brown people. are the problem. But I'm like maybe the. alien is something else. Maybe the alien. is are these agents that are actually. going to take our jobs. I believe the. basic human need is is meaning to have. the a purpose in life. And often the. question we have to ask is how can we. guide. this uh revolution in technology so that.

it empowers people to do things that. continue to give them meaning. I think. it was John Adams who said something to. the effect of my father studied. warfare so that I would have the. security to study commerce. I study. commerce so that my children will have. the prosperity to study arts. If these. new systems give us the ability to focus. on the things that we love doing that. give us meaning in our lives and that. could be a different thing for each.

person. while at the same time supplying with us. with a lot of our material needs. It. could be very positive. If it simply. strips away our own utility and leaves. lots of people without the ability to. work at all, then it could be very very. dangerous to to our our our lives. So, uh I think that we have the public. policy objective is to to to ensure that. it becomes an enabler of humanity, not a. replacement for it. >> So, you could come into power in is it. 2029 if there's no uh overthrowing of.

the the current leader? [snorts]. >> 2029 is going to be an interesting time. uh if these sort of forecasts that we're. getting from some of the world's leading. experts in artificial intelligence and. robotics come true, have you thought. much yet about how you would counteract. that? What you would do to make sure. that there isn't huge job job disruption. because you know a lot of a lot of. people like Sam Alman have suggested. through their actions that they might. support things like universal basic. income. In fact, Sam Alman's Sam Alman. being the founder and um co-founder of.

OpenAI, which makes Chat GBT. I think. his other startup is called WorldCoin, which uses your retina scan to to. validate that you're a real human being. so that you they can distribute money to. people because in a world of AI, we're. going to need to find a way to. distribute wealth. And if you listen to. Elon, he says, "We're going to live in. the age of abundance where working is. going to be optional." He says, "Now, if. you're a surgeon and you're training to. be a surgeon," he says, "Absolutely. don't. Because in a couple of couple of. years time there's going to be no human.

that's better than any AI surgeon. >> Wow. So if these things are true like. surely you should be making plans. and you know when a lot of smart you. know I know they have an incentive. they're raising money and they want they. have a certain narrative which helps. them raise money but if they are right. the future looks very different from the. past. >> That's true. >> Do you have a plan? I I have principles that I would apply. as these technologies present. themselves. And the principle for me is.

how do we make sure that the AI. enables and empowers people to make more. decisions for themselves and have more. freedom and a and um to pursue their own. meaning. rather than replacing and rendering them. um giving them a sense of of lost. meaning and purpose. And so, do I think. it's great that every minimum wage. worker might have a personal assistant. and a chauffeur vehicle? I do. Because.

that that would make more of their life. uh uh they could spend on the the things. that thrill them and make them happy and. less of their life would be spent on the. drudgery of having to drive in a traffic. jam or uh or, you know, sweep their. floor. Um but uh at the same time we. have to make sure that that people have. the ability to work and contribute and. and give themselves a sense of meaning. in their lives. So the other thing I. would say is that as these technologies. bring down costs, those savings should.

be passed on to people. They should not. be inflated away. The government should. not use this as an opportunity to just. print more cash to reflate the cost of. living. We should actually seek as our. goal to lower the cost of living, make. life more affordable, make our dollars. go further, which is which hasn't. happened in in generations. And so if. technology is going to allow us to. produce more for less, then let's make. sure that the workingclass people. actually enjoy that benefit rather than. having it inflated away. It is quite. concerning that you know if wealth does.

acrew to these big companies and you. know people like Elon who incredible. entrepreneur. >> is going to become the world's first. trillionaire right. >> I don't think he'll be the last the way. things are going with with artificial. intelligence that and then if there is. job disruption. I do think there's going to potentially. need to be some government intervention. corrective government intervention do. you not I don't know. >> nobody knows exactly what's going to. happen I mean it was you know um Paul. Krugman, the Nobel Prizewinning uh.

economist who embarrassingly predicted. that the internet would have no more. impact on our lives than the fax. machine. >> And and [clears throat] he's a Nobel. Prize uh economist, I think, from. Princeton or Yale or something. So. nobody's Nostradamus on these things, but we have to have guiding principles. and and mine are the rules around. technology should always be geared. towards giving people more agency, more. meaning, and more control over their. lives and not less. >> It's funny cuz I don't hear it reflected.

enough in political discourse. I hear us. focusing on other things. And one of. those things is immigration. across the. western world, the subject of. immigration seems to be a bit of a. winning formula for political leaders. If I think about the UK, what Trump said. about, you know, being invaded by. rapists and murderers from the the. southern border, do you feel that it's a. it's a sort of a weaponized, divisive. tool for people to get elected, complaining about the brown people or or. foreigners? I.

>> I'll just give you the Canadian. experience. So for roughly 200 years, we. had the most successful immigration. system in the world by far. In fact, other countries, both Republicans and. Democrats in the United States used to. say, "We need to study the Canadian. system because it has been so. successful." We had a point system that. that measured whether someone would be a. good fit for our labor market, whether. they would would integrate well into our. our system. And overwhelmingly, people. integrated, intermarried, uh, you know, my wife is a is a refugee from. Venezuela. That is not an uncommon story.

in Canada. What we encountered was a. very sudden and inexplicable increase in. the numbers uh in the period from 2021. to 2024. that was strictly out of line with our. our ability to absorb people into. housing, healthcare, and jobs. And this. upset the the social piece on. immigration that we had had for two. centuries leading up to it. And um now. everyone across the political spectrum.

agrees that it went too far too fast. And the approach that we're taking is. that uh that we have to make it a lawful. system. It has to follow the rules. You. people have to come in legally in. numbers that we can absorb and. ultimately integrate into jobs, society, and uh our way of life. population. cannot grow faster than the housing. stock or you'll run out of places to. live. It can't grow faster than the. number of jobs or you'll run out of. paychecks for people. And so we need a a.

controlled orderly system that's both. compassionate and common sense. >> It's such a divisive subject. You've. seen what's happened here in the United. States with ICE, >> right? Yeah. It it's a it's a different. situation in the US. Um we the. immigration problem in the US goes back. many many years. uh many many years of. chaos at their the southern border. We. didn't have that in Canada. Like that. was unheard of. We we had roughly 1% of. population immigrating to Canada for 200.

years. It was uncontroversial in Canada. up until this very strange, inexplicable. spike that really only helped very. wealthy landlords and employers that. wanted to drive wages down and rents up. they were the only beneficiaries of the. extreme increase in numbers. >> If you don't get the replacement rate. back up to a level where you're having. enough kids in Canada, >> does it track that eventually you would.

have to rely on more immigration. to solve for the sort of GDP issues? >> Look, economic immigration of. high-skilled um people to our country is. is has always been successful and uh. nobody resents that. Uh, one of the. things that we have to do though is when. people get to Canada, they have to be. able to fulfill their potential. In. Canada today, we have these gatekeepers. that block immigrant professionals from. even working in their field. So, for.

example, we have 20,000 immigrant. doctors and 32,000 immigrant nurses who. can't work in medicine because they. can't get a license to practice. There's. this incredibly bureaucratic system they. have to go through that takes eight or. nine years to prove that they actually. have the qualifications. I have it's so crazy that when I went in. for my eye surgery, there's a technician. there who literally flies to the UAE to. do eye surgeries 10 days a month and. then comes back to his family in Ottawa. where we only let him work as as a.

technician. And so UAE is a more. technologically advanced country than. Canada. And eyeballs are the same in the. UAE as they are in Canada. immigrants in. Canada have historically been more. educated than our Canadian-born. population just in terms of their. credentials, but have not been able to. fulfill their work because our licensing. system shuts them out. So, I want to fix. that with a merit-based test that gets. them into the high-paying jobs that will. actually strengthen our economy.

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they say China, they say Russia. >> I think it depends on what China decides. to do. I China is a a spectacular and. brilliant civilization with so much to. contribute to to world harmony. if. that's their choice. If the if the. government decides that it's going to to. direct the immense um successes of that. country towards um trading and working. with other countries, then there's no. nothing to worry about. But if it is a. very aggressive Bellose approach using.

technology for espionage uh interference. in foreign countries as they have done. in Canada uh invading Taiwan then China. and Beijing in particular the regime. could become the biggest risk and threat. to our country and our world. >> What does history say about this kind of. moment in time where there's seemingly. two world powers? Mhm. Well, there is an. incredible book called Thusidities Trap. uh which a professor named Allison um.

said that throughout history he took I. think 20 occasions where the where an. incumbent superpower was caught up on by. a challenging superpower and in I think. the majority of cases it did end up in. war and now he said it's not necessary. though and it doesn't have to happen. it. can be avoided and uh he lays out a plan. in his book for it to be avoided. I. think it can be avoided as well if uh.

Beijing can be made to understand that. it is in in the interest of China to be. part of the community of nations to work. collaboratively to trade freely to uh to. be a partner rather than an enemy and I. hope they make the right decision. Is it. fair to say that the United States is. really at war with China now already, but just through proxy wars and other. types of sort of economic wars? And. because now that they both have nuclear. weapons, you can't really have a direct. conflict, can you? >> Well, let let's put it this way. Um,

Venezuela, Iran, Cuba, these are all countries that. were in the realm of influence of. Beijing. and um they're the countries where the. United States is pursuing uh change. So. there there is the the war that we watch. on the evening news and the the real. interest behind them that that is. driving it. >> Canada doesn't have nuclear weapons, does it? >> No, we do not. >> Why?

>> We made a decision, I think it was about. I I want to say about 40 or 50 years ago. not to pursue nuclear arm. We didn't. think we had any need need for it. lots. of nuclear power, lots of uranium, but. we don't use it for for weaponry. >> Do you think Canada should have nuclear. weapons? >> I don't see a need for that. Um I don't. know what we would get from it. We don't. uh we don't have any desire to to. threaten anyone with nuclear weapons. So, um uh I don't I don't see a purpose. for that right now.

[laughter]. >> What you think? >> Sounds quite Canadian. >> That's true. But listen, we are a. warrior nation. Uh make no mistake about. it. We were in the World Wars two years. before the Americans. Uh and we we are. we're kind of like a a golden retriever. Uh we're friendly. We're likable. Uh we. like to get along, but if provoked, we. will fight back. >> Canada is building up its military. >> Absolutely. >> Why? because there's a consensus that we.

have not done enough to to protect our. territory from the incursions of hostile. powers and uh we often say in Canada if. you don't use it you lose it. Uh there's. large territories of our country that. are very hard to live in. We have an. incredible Inuit population but. obviously you know you can't heavily. populate the Arctic archipelago with. industry and stuff. So, how do you. assert sovereignty over those treasured. uh territories? Well, you have to have a.

military presence there. >> What's changed. >> for Canada? It's it's that we want to. maintain and ensure that we can make our. own decisions without relying on the. Americans. >> because the Americans have expressed. that they are maybe not going to be as. collaborative and friendly. >> and we want to be able to decide for. ourselves. We want to be masters in our. own home. uh in Quebec they say mashu. and uh so if we want to control our own. destiny and territory we have to pro we. have to be able to protect ourselves. It. has been.

very good for Canada to be next door to. the biggest military power the world has. ever seen and have friend friendly. relations that go back to um the early. 1800s before we were even a country. We. had largely friendly relations with this. enormous power. But what has become. clear is that we cannot simply rely on. the Americans to protect us. We have to. be able to protect ourselves. And that. requires a massive military buildup for. a country of our size, the second. biggest country anywhere in the world.

We have the longest oceanic coastline, even longer than Russia. So that takes. money and it takes a a buildup like. we've never seen. And that's what we're. we as Canadians agree has to happen. Now, >> this is in part because of Trump. >> In part, yes. because Trump threw the. election and then thereafter said that. he was going to make Canada an American. state [laughter]. >> which is never going to happen. >> But that you know with the the leader of. the most powerful military on earth says.

even jokingly that they are about to. take your country you can laugh but at. the same time one if I was leading. Canada I'd go wait is this possible? Are. we ready to defend ourselves? we uh as. Canadians react very badly to that and. uh we're we're we're not going to uh. ever be the 51st state or or any part of. the United States of America. The. American people are our friends. They've. been our top trading partner, our. closest ally. As uh President Kennedy.

said, um history has made us friends, economics has made us partners. Uh. geography has made us neighbors and. necessity has made us allies. those whom. nature have thus joined together. Let no. man put us under. But he understood that. that Canada was a separate country that. had its own unique interests. And I. think the American people understand. that as well. I I think the American. people are very fond of Canada as a. neighbor and friend. Um but they. understand we will always be a sovereign.

country. >> You would have been negotiating with. Trump right now if um the election, the. recent election in Canada had gone your. way. This is a pretty uh pretty stark. graph that I've just lid you. It shows. that you were leading in the polls. seemingly up until the very very last. moment in the elections. >> Is that accurate that poll? >> Yeah, I think that's probably a weighted. average, but yeah, I think more or less. >> What happened? >> Well, if you look what happened, we our. support didn't drop that much. Uh the. other parties collapsed in behind the.

Liberal party and uh it was largely due. to the uh the Canada US issue that you. raised. >> really. So, but at the same time, we got. the biggest vote count we had ever. received and the highest share of vote. that we've received since 1988. So, we. did perform very well. Our opponents. performed even better. And now we have. to build on the solid base that we've. accumulated in order to win the next. election. >> Just as the election comes into the home.

stretch, your polling basically stays. the same. >> Um, slight little bit of a drop, but. roughly stays the same. >> [snorts]. >> What caused the drop in that sort of. home stretch there? Do you think. >> what one of the challenges I had was I. wanted to focus on the things that were. going on in people's lives, the doubling. of housing costs, the rising crime rate, the inflation crisis, and my solutions. to all of those problems. But a lot of. that was swept off of the conversation. because everyone was focused suddenly on.

the the tariffs and the president the. president saying that he was going to. take Canada as a state but also him. saying that he was going to apply. tariffs. >> That's right. And those tariffs are. still in place. >> Why did that impact you and help Mark. Carney? >> That's a good question. I think I think. it allowed the conversation to move away. from the domestic record of the. government and on to two external. factors and that always helps the. incumbent and hurts the challenger.

>> How was this emotionally? >> Oh, it was a roller coaster and it was. like so things were changing so fast and. moving so quickly in the moment. It's. like you don't really have time to feel. anything. you're just doing so much so. quickly. >> that um your emotions. they're put on delay until after it's. all over. >> So after it's all over, I've got this. wonderful photo of that. >> Yes. >> You and your family. You said the. emotions came after cuz you were going.

going going. >> Yes. So my leadership started in 2022 as. we were coming out of co and there were. so many people who placed so much hope. in me who had suffered so much. They. would tell me they felt like they lost. control of their lives and that they. vested hope in me. So I'd get young. people would say, "You have to win. because I want to start a family and I. can't start a family in this economy.". Or mothers would say, "We just can't. afford food anymore." Or police officers.

say, "I've arrested the same guy four. times this week and he keeps getting. released." You have to win to fix these. problems. It's not about you, Mr. Polyv. It's about the stuff that's happening in. our lives and and you have to fix it. You know, uh I had a lady come to one of. my rallies cuz when you vote in a to. choose a leader of a party, you have to. pay $15 to join the party. And she came. up and told me about her life story. And. then she went up to the membership desk. and said, "Can I borrow $8?" And they.

said, "What do you need it for?" She. said, "Well, I only have $7." They said, "Oh, well, there's a bank machine. downstairs. you can go get some more. cash. And she says, I don't have a bank. card. And they said, well, is there. perhaps could you go to your car and get. some money? She said, well, uh, I don't. have any money in my car. What about. your home? Um, because we're not allowed. to buy them under the rules for other. people. And she said, I don't have a. home. I live in my car, and the $7 is. all the money I own, and I'm spending it. on a membership so that I can vote for.

Mr. Polyia because he is my only hope. This is the only chance I have. So, I. wanted to deliver for these people and. when we didn't win, uh, I felt I felt. terrible that I hadn't delivered for. them. >> What does that look like? The. disappointment of not delivering for. people the night of election, the day. after, if I'm watching you as a fly on. the wall, what do I see? >> You know, I didn't spend a lot of time. on that. I just got back at it because. at the end of the day, you have to focus.

on what you can control. And my my. approach in life is to zero in on what. is in your control. That is the greatest. thing you can do for your mental health. and for your output as a person. I. believe in a stoic approach. So I didn't. spend a lot of time sort of rolling. around on the ground um in melancholy. >> Do you think that if Trump hadn't have. said the thing about taking Canada and. he hadn't have done the tariffs, you. would be leading Canada right now? >> We'll never know. I mean uh these are.

the kinds of uh things you speculate. about but at the end of the day what. what good does it does it uh do to. speculate and I also don't like to make. excuses. I like to say look I'm uh if if. this person hadn't done X then I then I. would be in charge. I have to own my. result and that's what I do. >> As someone that doesn't know a ton about. this stuff I'm asking kind of for me I. find it interesting to see how. consequential. >> these what do they call them? not um. butterfly effect or just how the. unexpected dominoes can fall and change.

the course of history. >> So if Trump hadn't have said those. things, if we were to speculate, do you. think it would have changed the outcome. of the election? >> I don't know because we we don't know. what would have happened in absent of. that. >> If you had to bet your house, >> I don't have to bet my house. So outcome. either way. I I don't I don't want to. blame someone else for the outcome of. the election because at the end of the. day, the people voted and they made. their decision. I have to be at peace. with it. So, I can't spend my time. thinking on whatifs because if that. whatif hadn't happened, then there might.

have been another whatif. So, I have to. focus on what I can control. >> Dealing with those moments. You. mentioned stoicism. I found this book u. meditations by Marco Surelius, which I. think was quite formative for how you. see things in some respects and. generally stoicism. >> Yes. Um it's it's a great book. The. amazing thing about it is it's so. readable. Like he he talks about um this. is just a random page but it's a very. interesting uh excerpt. When you wake up. in the morning tell yourself the people. I deal with today will be meddling,

ungrateful, arrogant, dishonest, jealous. and sirly. They are like this because. they can't tell good from ego evil. But. if you go in and read it, what it. basically says is expect these things. and if you do but don't be controlled by. them. These are control. These are. factors outside of your control. Put all. of your emphasis on the things that are. within your control and it will bring a. tremendous amount of peace because when. you're focused on what you can control, you're the boss of your life. And that's.

what that's what stoicism has done for. me. >> I heard you say you're not the you're. not acted upon. >> That's right. When you're when you focus. on what you can control, you are the. actor rather than the acted upon. If you. say if you spend a lot of your time. thinking about the things you can cannot. control then you become a helpless. victim. Whereas if you if you focus on. what you can then you you become uh like. the driver of the car you decide where. it goes. And um you know as my favorite. poem says uh Invictus that um Nel Nelson.

Mandela used to read himself when he was. in prison for all those years in South. Africa. He he would he would recite to. himself the the poem Invictus to remind. him that he he could focus on what he. was in control of which was his own. soul. I am the master of my fate. I am. the captain of my soul is how it ends. And that that gives you a lot of peace. One of the things you often find in. stoicism and other sort of uh teachings. of that time is this idea of being.

flexibly minded in terms of being able. to learn and being growth minded and. being able to evolve. Mhm. >> I was wondering as you went on that. campaign trail and generally over the. last 10 years of your career, it's it's. clear to me that your your core. principles have been quite consistent. >> I I uh have this um. this document you wrote when you were I. think 20 years old, which was part of a. contest where you won $10,000. >> That's right. >> For explaining what you would do if you. were prime minister, um if you were.

leading Canada. >> You even dug up the check. >> I found the check. It wasn't cashed. No, it's a it's a fake check. We'll go have. lunch. >> So, you won $10,000 for submitting this. >> Yes. >> When you were 20 years old, explaining. what you would do if you ever became the. prime minister. >> Yes. >> And I would like you to actually just. read the opening three paragraphs. because it it does um it is quite. interesting to see how you've evolved if. at all. Could you just read those first. three paragraphs and give me any other. of the context which I might have. excluded? >> Sure. Although we Canadians seldom.

recognize it, the most important. gardening guardian of our living. standards is freedom. Freedom to earn a. living and share the fruits of our labor. with loved ones. The freedom to build. personal prosperity through risk-taking. and strong work ethic. The freedom of. thought and speech. The freedom to make. personal choices and the collective. freedom of citizens to govern their own. affairs democratically. Government's job. is to constantly find ways to remove. itself from obstructing such freedoms. Human beings are graced with the gifts.

of creativity, wisdom, and ingenuity. The the best way for a society to go. about improving its living standards is. to allow citizens to apply these. qualities to the challenges of everyday. life. Asking a prime minister to. single-handedly improve the living. standards of 30 million of the world's. brightest is as about as realistic as. asking him to take to an Olympic. sprinting track to help a lineup of. worldclass athletes reach the finish. line. The more the government becomes. involved in the race, the greater the.

number of hurdles competitors will. encounter. Therefore, as prime minister, what I would do to improve living. standards is not as nearly as important. as what I would not do. As prime. minister, I would relinquish to citizens. as much of my social, political, and. economic control as possible, leaving. people to cultivate their own personal. prosperity and to govern their own. affairs as directly as possible. >> In the last decade, since you've been. out on the road, more speaking to. people, campaigning, where have your views evolved?

I would say my temperament has matured. 10 years ago, I did not have a wife and. kids. As a father, you end up having to. grow in a tremendous amount of patience. because kids don't do what they're told. or they have needs that are that must. supersede your own. You're constantly. making compromises. uh with a spouse in order to juggle all. of the difficulties of family life. And. that necessarily spills over into your.

political approach. I think. temperamentally I've changed. I'm much. more careful and thoughtful than I was. say in my late 20s and and early 30s. >> The people that have um you know. opposition parties have often referred. to you as Trump light. >> And what do they base that on? >> I guess because you're both. conservatives, I guess that would be. much of the the argument. And you both. you both have spoken out against this. term wokeism and DEI.

>> Yeah. Look, I I on the on DEI and I. don't think that is something particular. to President Trump. I mean, there's a. lot of people around the world who for. their own reasons and based on their own. experiences. have criticized that particular. ideology. What I think has changed is. that liberals used to believe in liberty. and conservatives believed in conserving. it. You know, they used to say liberals. were the gas pedal, conservatives were.

the brake, but we were both heading in. generally the same direction. But what I. think happened with wokeism is that it. it it is a deeply illiberal ideology. It is liberalism, traditional liberalism. was was a color-blind ideology. It was. based on total equality. regardless of gender, sexuality, race, or anything else. Wokeism is exactly the opposite of that. It's it like accentuates all of those.

differences and disagreements. It groups. people based on what should be. irrelevant characteristics like race and. gender. And then having divided people. into groups, it seeks to expand state. control over their lives. What I believe. in is uh is treating people as. individuals and letting them live their. own lives, judging them exclusively on. their own merits. And I think that was. the consensus view of both liberals and. conservatives up until this toxic.

ideology came along and divided people. >> One of the things I you know I'm a black. man. >> Mhm. >> I was I moved from Botswana when I was a. baby and came to the UK and thank God uh. there was sort of social systems in. place because I don't think that I would. have had the outcomes I'd had. One of. the things that I did know though when I. was um 18, dropped out of university and. started to get into a world of business. is I was aware because when you look at. like funding data for entrepreneurs that. are black or especially women, it's. clear that there's like a systemic.

disadvantage of some sort and I I wonder. someone like yourself who's against this. sort of DEI ideology, how do you contend. with like systemic institutional. discrimination towards certain groups. which does pose objectively real. disadvantage on them being able to climb. the ladder cuz you said something. earlier about your goal being in Canada. to make sure everybody like has a fair. shot. >> That's right. >> How does one counteract the systemic. issues around race or gender or whatever. it might be that stop that being. possible? Cuz I I find myself in an.

interesting position where like on one. end I'm like I want to be treated like. everybody else, >> right? And I've always felt that way. And I've always I've always actually to. some degree cringed a little bit when I. felt like someone was giving me special. treatment. because my skin color was different. because it in some way made me feel like. I was at a disadvantage which I know can. become quite self-fulfilling. However, on the other side of the spectrum, I do. also believe that there is like systemic.

discrimination that is going to hold. certain groups back if there isn't. something done to level that playing. field. So, look, I think the answer is. equality. There has to be strict. equality and equal treatment regardless. of race, gender, uh, ethnicity, religion. And that is the that is the. ideal to which we were all striving. And. I think if we get back to that, then we. can give everybody a chance to achieve. based on their own merit. Uh what we.

need is a meritocracy that is colorblind. and and judges people based on what they. can do. >> People aren't color blind, though, are. they? >> No. >> I think I my dad said to me when I was. younger, he said, "Everybody's. prejudice." I remember sitting in the. back of the car, "My dad's white.". [laughter] And I was and I'm thinking, "My dad just said that he thinks. everyone might be like might be racist. and everyone's prejudice." I'm like, "Is. my dad racist?" But um as I've got. gotten older, I realized that he to some. degree is telling the truth. That. prejudice is part of how we survived as. humans and we're able to understand.

danger from not. So prejudice is. something that I think is very prevalent. in society whether we believe we're not. and everyone else is. So if prejudice is. very prevalent in society, does there. need to be measures that counteract that. to give everybody a fair chance? Our. institutions have to be conscious about. making sure that we are judging people. based on their merit and they should you. know work aggressively to make sure that. there is that everyone regardless of. where they come from their background. has a chance to succeed get the job get.

the promotion move up the ladder I don't. think that is achieved by breaking. people down into more and more different. groups and divisions by trying to build. the barriers between pe people based on. race and gender. I think it's by. actually removing them. So the the. problem I have with with wokeism is it. it seems almost designed to divide. people. And that is exactly the opposite. of the objective that we all sought when.

we uh when we pushed for racial equality. and personal and personal freedom and. responsibility. >> How does one contend with the systemic. issues though the like the prejudices? I. I I remember reading about studies where. like if you they got a bunch of people. and got them to apply for jobs and just. based on the names whether they were. like a a typically white name versus say. a typically black name the response rate. is marketkedly different. >> Well, I go back to my first principles. I think that government is responsible.

for a lot of the the barriers that are. put in place. So, [clears throat] let me. give you some examples. When government. brings into place these anti- housing. policies that I described, they v they. they impact far more on minorities and. disadvantaged people than they do on. established uh people obviously because. if if you're new to a country or you. come from a a poorer background, you. won't have a house and then you're the. one who's going to pay the biggest price. for the fact that government is making. housing unaffordable. If you think at.

the occupational licensing rules that I. just described that block immigrants. from having working in their professions. even when they're thoroughly qualified, those are government-imposed obstacles. that prevent people from getting ahead. Also, a lot of these soft on crime. policies have been sold to us on the. grounds that they're going to help. minorities by ensuring that they we we. don't have as high a conviction rate. Well, what they've actually done is that. in many minority communities where the. law-abiding people are now suffering as. a result of.

criminals of all backgrounds. And so, ironically, it's actually government. policies that are causing people of. disadvantaged backgrounds to suffer even. more. So, wokeism accentuates all of. those problems rather than solving them. So I'm interested in solving problems to. give everybody the opportunity to live a. safe, affordable, opportunityfilled. life. And wokeism is not doing that. The. actually get creating a free market, free enterprise economy with free people.

who have free speech. That that's the. the single best way to give people of. all racial backgrounds a better chance. in life. >> Again, I'm holding the position of uh. the DEI to try and I like the clash of. ideas because it helps me to think. through these things. I've never had the. chance to ask somebody these kind of. questions before. And on that point of. housing, one of the things that I I. found to be quite surprising was that. black mortgage applicants are up to 200%. more likely to be denied a home loan. than white applicants with the similar. financial profile.

>> This is in Canada. >> These stats are for the West. So, >> okay, >> but but what is going on there? because. it says that they have similar financial. profiles, yet their their applications. are being denied up to 200% more than. white home buyers. >> So, I had not seen those data that data. point before, but I would say that this. is these sound like really stupid. bankers um because they're making a bad. decision to deny people a mortgage and. ultimately deny themselves the business.

um if they're if if that's how they're. making their judgments. And then DI. comes in to make sure that their. judgments aren't stupid. [laughter]. >> Well, I'm not sure that DEI cures. stupidity though. In some cases, we've. seen it cause more. >> That's how it shows up, right? It's like. a logical next step, which is there's. prejudice going on in the system, which. is making it in inequal. And it's a DEI becomes this corrective. measure so those stupid bankers don't. make stupid decisions. >> But but DEI has been in place now for.

several decades. and how is it working? You're reading the statistics to show. that it's not. So maybe it's not. actually doing what it's designed to do. Maybe it's doing other things. >> The other thing that I actually was. really keen to talk about, I just. realized, is um. >> Sure. >> is this. >> Oh, that's little Valentina there. She. loves to be on daddy's shoulders. >> How old is Valentina? >> Valentina is seven years old. >> Seven years old. And she's she's. non-verbal. >> She's non-verbal. Yes. >> What does what does non-verbal mean? >> She is autistic. She's on the spectrum.

So, um, she her biggest the biggest. difference between Valentina and other. children is the ability to communicate. verbally. Um, so we're working very hard. on that. She's making some encouraging. progress, but she does uh have some. challenges in that area. She's um very. acrobatic and rambunctious. She loves to. climb, swing, bounce, jump, and she is. extremely affectionate. And one of the.

superpowers she has is that whatever she. does, she does 100%. She's also 100%. authentic. >> So, and that's not the case once kids. get old enough to manipulate to get what. they want. They can put on acts and. artififices. She doesn't do that. She's. a the real deal all the time. Uh you. know exactly how she feels because she. indicates it. and she's very blessed to. have a a little brother, Cruz, who. adores her and treats her better than. anyone else in the world.

>> I often hear parents talk about their. concerns with, you know, someone like. Valentina growing up in the world as. non-verbal. You're not going to be here. forever. >> to protect her. And you know, I was. saying to you before, my brother has. three kids under the age of what, seven. years old now. and I've noticed uh just. how much he thinks about how they're. going to be when he's not here. How does. that relate to Valentina being. non-verbal and and how you think about. the future? >> Well, a lot of things. Like one, we.

obviously have to build up a nest egg. for her so that if she can't earn. income, she will have uh uh the. resources for a great life after we're. gone. And second, we're really hoping. that there we forge a very permanent and. um. deep bond between her and her brother. Cruz because he will be there. And he. one of the things he says again and. again is my job is to protect Valentina. from bad guys. So um this is a good. attitude especially that they are.

actually in the same class even though. she's older. She is in his class at. school and so she's daddy he's daddy's. eyes uh to protect our little princess. But I think when he's older I I believe. based on his nature that he's going to. be there for her and um we we are. building a plan towards that. >> My job is to protect Valentina from bad. guys. >> That's right. [laughter]. [sighs]. It's it's a it's a great instinct.

>> How has it changed your politics? It's reinforced my sense of um. compassion for people who can't provide. for themselves. And you know, I've. talked a lot about how government should. be limited. I do think there's a very. real role for government to help people. who genuinely cannot provide for. themselves. People who suffer from with. disabilities being probably the best. example. And um it has reinforced to me that we.

have to also have policies that. recognize the inherent worth of every. individual. Too often governments have seen people. with disabilities as just someone they. have to care for but not someone who can. contribute. And I believe that everybody. has something to contribute and that we. should try to unlock that in every human. being. Um, we don't know exactly what. Valentina will do, but I believe she.

will do some kind of a job at some point. in the future and um, I'm very. passionate about policies that enable. people with disabilities to have work. opportunities, even if it's just very. limited, to design programs so that when. they have a, for example, cash or. medication support, it doesn't get. robbed from them just because they get a. job. So, it has focused my mind a lot on. people. It gives you a sense of. compassionate because when you see. somebody who might be different like I. see my daughter in that person. I see my.

daughter my often my wife is very good. at this. She'll see someone who might be. acting differently in a crowd and other. people are looking at that person and. she'll grab my hand. She'll say I think. he's autistic and then she will often go. and talk to that that boy and make him. feel loved. Um so compassion is about. feeling what the other person feels. And. you have but a greater ability to do. that when there's a loved one close to. you who has the experience. >> An interesting range of emotions to be.

the father, the parent of a autistic. child. >> I know this because I get messages on. mass from our audience members who have. an autistic child. >> Yes. >> What what can you say to to the range of. emotions you feel? My wife was able to discern that there. was something different about Valentina. very early on when she was still a baby. because she didn't make a lot of eye. contact and there was a period during. which she was not very communicative at.

all. Um even in ways that babies. normally are. Uh there wasn't a lot of. reciprocal communication to start with. So when we went for the diagnosis. we were not that shocked. So, you know, when the when the I think she was a. nurse or she was a specialist gave us. the diagnosis and she was like paused. like waiting for us to burst into tears. I mean, we were just kind of like, "Yeah, we we expected that and let's get. on with it." And then we just started. doing the things that we had to do. And. my message to parents of autistic.

children is just focus on what you can. control. Get on to the things that you. have to do. Get a speech therapist. Get. the play structures in the house that. they love. with Valentina. It's it's a. it's a b bouncy castle and a little. trampoline and a lot of building blocks. and enjoy them. Like they they're she. she's so much fun. Like she's a fun. little girl. She loves to jump. She's. scared of nothing. If anything, the. problem is she's a bit too much of a. daredevil, but she's she's a thrilling. little girl to be around. She loves to. like you see all the pictures with her.

on my shoulder. She always loves to. climb on my on my back and she loves to. run. She loves me to run with her on her. shoulders. So like en enjoy the special. things that they bring because they they. they are magical. They're they're. they're wonderful. They're just they. they call it autism because they're. autotapping.

on something might might give her a. tremendous sensation that we can't. appreciate. On the other side, minor irritants that. you and I would brush off might drive. her completely crazy. >> And so, if she's having a meltdown, it's. not because she's a bad kid. It's. because she's going through a horrific. sensation that we can't quite. understand. So, but you just have to. embrace it all. And um it's a lot of. extra leg work that goes into a child. that has these um conditions, but it's.

worth it and it's rewarding in the end. She uh you know obviously not met her, but from all the photos she she makes. you smile just looking at the photos. >> She makes everyone smile and she's got. uh she's very popular at school. The. kids are very nice to her, by the way. Like we we we get secondhand reports and. it's like they love her. They're sweet. to her. Um she has a little boy that has. a crush on her, so I'm keeping an eye on. that. Um but she's so affectionate. Like. we went to a fall fair one time and. there were these little old ladies.

sitting there and Valentina just decided. she liked this little old lady and went. and sat on her lap like complete. stranger. But that's how she is. She. decides she likes you and you're in. >> What are your um what are your closing. statements? We've got listeners that. are, you know, all over the world, the. United States, Canada, Australia, the. UK. If you um if you had to send one. final message to them, what would that. message be in this moment in time that. we find ourselves in? Well, I'm actually optimistic about the. future and I think Canada's got a very. bright future. Um, I think the world.

should look to Canada. We have the most. resources of anyone in the world. We. have probably the most uh diverse and. educated population. Uh, we have uh the. the most fresh water, the um uh the. second biggest land mass. Uh, and I. think it's going the future belongs to. Canada. We're going to be an incredible. place. Uh, the MB of the world. >> if and so if we if we do the right. things. I don't want to be egotistical. about it, but I think it would help if I. were prime minister as well. >> I love Canada. It's one of my my.

favorite places in the world for so many. reasons. Um when I told you when I went. to Toronto for the first time, I felt. like I was at home. >> Yeah. >> Um because I think you know Brits and. Canadians have a lot in common. >> Absolutely. >> Including a king. >> Um. >> yeah, you would be very uh wellreceived. in Canada. So consider um coming. >> I I go all the time when whenever I'm uh. whenever I'm invited to go and I've been. once or twice on vacation as well. So I. hope to be back there soon. And uh. actually going to do a tour there at. some point with with the Dio to meet all. the people that listen. So very excited. about that as well. >> Oh, you'll bring you'll bring up big.

crowds. >> Oh, >> it'll be fun. >> We have a closing tradition on this. podcast where the last guest leaves a. question for the next guest not knowing. who they're leaving it for. And the. question left for you is h. [clears throat]. what are you most afraid of and how do. you deal with that fear? Hm. [clears throat]. I don't have a lot of fears. I mean, for. myself, um I would say going back to. family, it would be that something would.

happen to my kids. Uh you know, just. you hear uh terrible terrible things in. the news. I was just uh unfort you know, unfortunately I I had to go to a funeral. for uh mass shooting victims in Tumblr. Ridge, British Columbia. And I just, you. know, every parent worries about. something happening to their kids. I. think that would be my biggest fear. >> What about for Canada at large? >> The biggest fear I have for Canada is. that.

we just keep. blocking our own potential and declining. and opportunity vanishes and slowly our. people lose the promise that the country. gave me and so many generations. And so. my fear is that we become the the frog. in boiling water and it just gets slowly. warmer and warmer and warmer and the. frog really never notices. >> Is that the trajectory of travel? >> I think it is unfortunately but I think.

we can change that trajectory if we make. uh some big reversals uh in direction. >> And lastly, what about for the world. generally the western world? I would say my biggest fear is that uh. the western world does not stay true to. its foundational principles. I want the. western world to stay true to the to the. basic principles of that that grew out. of the Magna Carta, a freedom of um. government that is servant uh people. that are masters and that the free.

democracies not only succeed at home but. work together abroad to preserve the. that that uh civilization. >> Thank you so much. Thank you for taking. the time to to come have this. conversation with me and answering all. of my questions. Um, it's, you know, I. don't like interviewing politicians. because they are very slippery, >> right? >> And they slip and slide away from. answering things in a way that makes the. the very essence of why we started this. show feel like we're um like we're not. delivering for the audience who want to.

know the truth, whether it's ugly or. indifferent or whatever it might be. And. um, I've really enjoyed the conversation. because I feel like you answered my. questions to the best of your ability. >> Thank you. >> And that's often that's not usually the. case with politicians. And. >> thank you. I think they think that's the. right approach, but actually I think in. a world that's now more of a glass box. than ever before and not a black box. where you can paint the image of. something on the outside, being. transparent and being willing to come. into these environments and your team. didn't tell me anything was off limits. They didn't say there was anything I. couldn't ask you, right? >> They didn't ask to be able to edit this.

And I would like more politicians to to. follow in that vein. YouTube have this. new crazy algorithm where they know. exactly what video you would like to. watch next based on AI and all of your. viewing behavior. And the algorithm says. that this video is the perfect video for. you. It's different for everybody. looking right now. Check this video out. and I bet you you might love.