Overcoming Depression, Burnout, Anxiety and Insomnia with Dan Murray-Serter | E54

it's very rare that you get to meet. entrepreneurs that are. following and have followed in the steps. that. you followed in in your life and like so. whenever i meet people like you and ben. francis who. is similar age to me who has like. similar life ambitions. um i see it as like this really amazing. rare opportunity. to learn for myself and to ask honestly. like selfish questions. and i saw on your twitter i think it was. over the mental health week period. you did a tweet where you talked about.

your experiences with. depression burnout and anxiety and from. what i know about your story. you experience those things in that. order so. i think that's a good place to start. which is let's talk about. depression and the the role that. depression played in your life and where. it came from. and how you've overcome or are. overcoming all handling depression. yeah so interesting actually because. um i i realized when i started to talk. about.

mental health stuff even more. interestingly than what you've just said. i kind of realized that. i'd been burying another mental health. problems actually the the tweet was more. depression burnout anxiety. um and insomnia but actually it's really. interesting i did a. podcast interview with a nutritionist. called rhiannon lambert and when i was. preparing for that i was going over my. the fact that i'd grown up fat and the. fact that um. you know i probably did have an unusual. relationship mentally with food and.

um suddenly like i was unpacking what. had happened in my 20s and. i actually had bulimia i used to throw. up for like four. to five years not intentionally though. this is like quite unusual but that's. how deeply rooted this mental health. problem was. i would eat something and i would throw. a lot of it. up um my friends would like know about. this but it wasn't like labelled and i. went to. you know specialists in harley street to. see what was up and they were like. medically you're fine so psychologically.

there's something there. anyway i haven't done it since i was. about 26 or whatever but. it suddenly occurred to me a few weeks. ago really interestingly. that you know being able to label like. the time i got depression. the time i got anxiety the time i got. insomnia the time i was burnt out. i remembered those moments this one i'd. actually buried as a story. right in my head and never i'd never. expressed it in my whole life to anyone. publicly at all. full stop um and it was a couple of. months ago i wrote a newsletter on. mental health and.

uh and nutrition um and i admitted for. the first time then that i'd had bulimia. and like what the symptoms. were and how long it had gone on and the. fact that i was basically like losing. lots of weight getting really skinny and. all i saw was someone fat. um and it was so interesting to me like. two revelations that came from that. one is that um if it's. so uncomfortable right it's for me it's. really embarrassing to admit to myself. that i was weak enough to have a mental. health condition that bad. that i would psychologically throw up.

when there was nothing biologically. wrong with me. um that's really awkward to admit to. yourself it's also. far more terrifying to admit it publicly. once you've uncovered it. and it kind of made me reflect on the. fact that um sometimes like these things. are actually just so painfully. embarrassing about your personal life. that you can even bury it to yourself. did you ever understand why you were. bulimic was there because it's a. psychological like comorbidity so. what was the cause it's really hard to. say what the cause was because i got it. after i'd lost weight.

um so you know by the time i was sort of. 21 or whatever i was in perfectly. reasonable shape. um but i got it at like 23. um and. actually there was a result of it um the. only time i was ever hospitalized. it's a really random but hilarious story. in its own way. um because i've been throwing up i've. been basically like hurting the inside. of my throat right. and i was at a festival one time and i. had a coughing fit in. in hackney and i had a coughing fit at. the hospital and i coughed a hole in my.

throat literally it's called a. pneumomedia steinem it's a very unique. thing to happen apparently. and fortunately it was close enough to. the royal london hospital to go in there. and show them right. and basically what happened to me was my. head started to grow so i was with my. friends feeling fine other than this. cough. and one of my friends just looked at me. and was like whoa and i was like what. they're like may your head is massive. i'm like i'm not even talking mate maybe. a dick. no no your head is growing what is going. on i was like what and then. everyone else was like oh my god anyway.

walks to. the hospital um it's sort of like five. in the afternoon or whatever because. there's a day festival. um and there's like you know it's east. london there's quite a lot of genuinely. like gang related things people are. bleeding everywhere all this stuff and. they just see me and they're like that. guy's next. and put me and i went into intensive. care for like the whole week um. whilst they were basically trying to sew. up this hole in my throat when you say. your head was. your head was growing so oxygen was. going uh not going. like in my mouth and through my. bloodstream properly somebody was. escaping around my head and my brain.

so it was like an emergency procedure to. like like get me on. uh meds and sort me out but it's so. interesting because even. knowing that that had happened to me i. didn't relate the cause. to actually a deeper root cause which. was another mental health problem. um to be honest with you like i couldn't. say to you what the trigger was. beyond this like story you know the. things that we grow up with the people. that we grow up with those little. you know bullying and things like that i. mean you know in some good respects. because i grew up fat i've got a good.

personality and a sense of humor. so i've always been like able to really. connect with people because i just never. had it all my way kind of thing. do you know this this story about you. know um people that are fat having. better senses of humor and being a. little bit more you know quote and quite. bubbly yeah. why why is that i think self-deprecation. can sometimes be like a. defense mechanism right and and. ultimately. you know with these things you're going. to hear them a lot if you grow up you're. going to hear it a lot right you're. going to go to a new environment. someone's going to bully you for the. obvious and so.

you kind of find a way of coping with it. in your own way. um for me it's just interesting because. the other mental health um issues that. i've had in my life. i'm able to trace back usually to a. moment or a thing or reflect on why. this one kind of just happened later and. then as soon like you know i had it for. a few years. but then it just also went away at what. age was this so about 23. to about 27. are you old now uh 33. so it was so you had it for 23 to 27 for. about four years.

and you overcame yeah but like. naturally i wasn't doing anything. different i mean i started to learn what. foods would make me more sick than. others if that makes sense as well. um but i find it super interesting. again less so i mean we're cool to know. the trigger. obviously but it's almost less so that. and more so the fact. that um it kind of ran its course as. well was interesting to me and that i. buried it. right in my head um and actually 27. um you know was the start of like a.

whole other you know experience in life. for me anyway. so it is possible that um you know these. things are related to stress and other. things. um my entrepreneurship journey started. at 24 so it's not. completely unrelated but not quite not. not enough to actually label it and say. it's. for a thing um but then you know the. other. the other experiences um that i've had. with. with mental health a lot clearer so i. think. depression is a really complex term.

um and the only i think it's really. worth saying the only. relation that i've got to depression. that i'm comfortable talking about. um is after my father passed away and i. think that's. really reasonable right and so this is. the thing i. like because i work so so much with. people in mental health and experts. i know like depression is also. not something to claim you have when you.

feel down or. you know it's very different like and. obviously there is a spectrum of these. things as well. but for me my depressive episode was. right after my father passed away. because he was on life support for six. months and overcame. when they said he's 100 going to die. actually survived. made it out of the hospital into. recovery home and then someone basically. had a cold around him and he died of. their cold catching their cold. after the entire recovery process um the. truth of the matter is that.

my depression was actually interestingly. sort of linked with a lack of belief. in um a higher power or whatever you. want to call it justice. like everything right because in. fairness yeah and like my dad was like. such a generous spirited guy. he was blind he had all of these things. wrong with him anyway and still. like was just the funniest nicest. warmest person anyone knows. and um the last person on earth to kind. of deserve something like that. and so for me the um.

the experience after he passed away so. he believed in god. so when he died i was like that's my. connection to god gone. therefore i straight up believe in. nothing um. you know i think it's really interesting. to have conversations with people. intelligent people like yourself when. you talk about purpose. and vision and these things it's very. hard to imagine that you've got a. purpose. a vision for anything if suddenly you've. switched. and you've switched off and you've said. i believe in nothing you did totally. destabilized. yeah yeah i remember the the feeling of.

being i was religious until i was when i. was christian until i was 18. and then which i think will surprise a. lot of people because i'm a very. rational. sort of someone that makes a lot of. decisions and things from first. principles or logic. and then at 18 i lost my faith per se. and it was the most like the two years. following that were the. two most destabilizing years of my life. as i i became a total obsessive atheist. which means i read every book watched. every documentary video. and then i got to the point and this is. when i realized that i'd overcome my. sort of.

wobble where i no longer cared about. engaging in these debates with people. that agreed or disagreed with me. and i was at peace with my own beliefs. that um i guess which is like. agnosticism if that's a term and the. other really destabilizing moment in my. life where i lost my sense of. purpose was the day someone offered me. about. 20 to 30 million um hypothetically to. buy my business. and 18 year old steve shows up i've. talked about this a few times. because he thought we were doing this.

for money he thought that was the goal. and so i go home that night i remember. where i sat like it was yesterday. i'm typing rightmove.com looking at. houses at 24 years old. and then i'm looking at these houses and. i'm getting this real sort of. deep sense of um unfulfillment by. thinking well that was. that was it that was the game and then. like okay so um auto trader boom. boom lamborghini aventador i'm looking. at this aventador and feeling like i'd. be poorer. not in a financial sense but in like a. spiritual sense.

if i chose to step on what's clearly a. hamster wheel. and and that so from that day the day. after. i didn't know why i was i didn't know. why i was working hard anymore i didn't. know why i was building the business and. i had to then go in. search of a real form of stability in my. life which was. you know i love it but i thought i loved. it for another reason i thought i loved. it for money. but i loved it for connection and for. conversations like this and those things. but to go back to your point please um. you're talking about how. you lost your sense of sort of stability.

i guess yeah i lost what i believed in. this world. yeah and if you don't have a sense of. belief it's really hard to find your. purpose. and i i would say that i. i went through a few years of that um. very important age sorry uh so 24 my dad. died so. i mean also similar time to having the. yeah i mean i didn't even realize that. as. i until i was saying it just now um but. so. probably related obviously um but.

i i went through about three years. of not believing um. in anything right like really and you. know. not very nice about it either um so i. grew up jewish. um and i've always said in fairness you. know i think judaism is as bad a. religion as all the other religions. you know i don't actually personally uh. like any one of them. but i do love what they all mean but. then you know it's very possible to be. wise and not associate yourself with a. religion.

and what i've learned which i find so. interesting. is my identity my connection to. spirituality and judaism is a weird one. as well because it's like a race and a. religion. so it's like you can actually be not. religious you can lose your religion but. still be the race yeah. um and that's that's like an actually. it's a positive in a way because it. means you don't have to disassociate. from cultural values. but you can disassociate yourself from. religious ideals. and what actually happened to me was you. know. i would be relatively difficult.

and question people a lot when they. would talk to me about their religious. beliefs. i'd want to dig into them and i'd really. want to challenge the way that they. think and why they think these things. and how they can defend them. but not trying not to be an absolute. [ __ ] but just. using my own i guess bitterness and my. own experience of growing up being told. to believe in something which is very. different to finding something. and you know when my father passed away. and i didn't have this connection to it. anymore. i also felt like i didn't have a. connection to spirituality or anything. and so it's very weird to have like.

almost the death of a religion as a. human being. because that's your death of your. connection to this earth and purpose and. everything and. it wasn't until i was 27 really um. one of my really good friends told me. about um and obviously we've been. talking about christian angermeier as. well like our mutual friends so this is. a relevant conversation. told me about ayahuasca and i'd never. heard of it before i didn't even know. what it was. um and i went on a retreat with him and. um i mean i came back that weekend. completely.

i mean when i say a 180 i went from. the most cynical non-believer in the. whole. world negatively so to. like without sounding like a complete. [ __ ] like positively. enlightened and confident never never. more confident of anything in my life. um of spiritual realism. and what i believe in and ultimately. what i believe in when i have these like. fun conversations with people now about.

spirituality. which is you know what do i believe in i. believe in nature i believe in. looking at the beauty of the world and. how cycles. work which is science right and the way. that my ayahuasca experience actually. opened my eyes to believing in something. spiritual or greater than myself. was 90 percent of my hallucination was. observing what happens in nature with. cycles. right birds bees oxygen air. soil all of this recycling all the time. for a sustainable system and being like.

you know that is. in itself a scientific miracle but. something greater than us. that's always happening throughout time. and it was a real shift for me because. a i overcame my depression from that. b i suddenly believed in something. even if that's something is nature and. when people are like and i get this from. christians quite often as well because. they're like you know what do you mean. you believe in nature like what is that. i'm like. i mean it's it's more believable than a. guy that walked on water. yeah and when they like get annoyed i'm. like i've got nothing against jesus i'm.

just saying that like. believing in nature as ridiculous as. that sound. is a profound belief and what's. important is it is a belief. and having a belief has actually helped. me helped guide me to then work on. things like. what are my personal values you know. which you talked about you know mental. models. what do i say yes to a no to in life. well you can only figure those things. out if you spend time with mental models. first principles thinking about. what things mean to you in life and then. suddenly.

other things start to come into flow and. and so i really want to just double down. on this ayahuasca experience. what exactly did you do on that. experience. so ayahuasca is essentially uh and it's. completely natural it's tree sap. from the amazon um and it's been. practiced for thousands of years and. you know i won't go into like the whole. history of psychedelics but i could do. because i've read a lot about it. um the the reality is it's sacred. so our shamans have like a legal license. to practice with it. um and they it's a guided experience so.

the most important thing to say to. anyone thinking about ayahuasca or. whatever like. it's not something you do at home on. your own. at all ever you could do that with. mushrooms you can definitely do that. with lsd. you definitely do not want to do that. with ayahuasca because. um in my experience the other. psychedelics are a bit like you can have. sort of one foot in this world one foot. in that world. and ayahuasca is not even in this. plane you're just somewhere else but. what's fascinating and very common from.

people's recollections of ayahuasca. trips is. you have a spirit guide called mama. ayahuasca that's what everyone calls. her um and. in all of my experience of doing it and. i've done it about 12 times now. so i almost go back every year by the. way it's an incredibly painful. experience. and it's very difficult to do and it's. not something you look forward to which. is why it's like. rockish rocket fuel growth um which is. why i do it. because you learn all the things about. yourself you don't want to hear you. don't want to know and you confront the.

worst realities. and i've learned more in those weekends. that i've done this then. you know you can learn with therapists. and you can learn yourself so staggering. everyone says this to me and it's. and you know you mentioned a guy called. christian angermeier. context he runs a company called a thai. which are are now. developing um psychedelics as a way to. cure treatment resistant depression. um it's really sort of a groundbreaking. company and he sat with me in his. his penthouse just across across the. street in fact from where we are now. and he was telling me that you can let.

you unlock the brain. by taking these drugs and you discover. truths about yourself which. in many experiences which is similar to. what you're describing. will have a permanent lasting. transformative impact on the way you. see the world and it like corrects your. thinking and it's it's. it's crazy crazy for a normal person. that isn't. in this world or doesn't understand this. to think that you can take. a magic mushroom or a drug or a. psychedelic or whatever you want to call. it. and overcome grief there's a great book.

by michael pollan called. um how to change your mind and in it he. talks about this problem with. psychedelics it's a bit like dreams. right. you're having an ineffable experience so. to describe it for people was generally. quite boring. what i think is more interesting in a. sense is to discuss. the outcomes that i've i've got from it. um. so the first time you know very quickly. because you asked. the experience was the hallucinogenic. experience like i said was watching the. cycles of the earth develop. and were you conscious because right so.

you haven't done it yes so. you drink it it takes about an hour for. me you lie down the pitch blacks fluid. it's like a shot it tastes disgusting. but some people like it you lie back. um and and the shamans basically start. playing music and it's a completely. guided facilitated experience with them. if you're having problems they come over. they help you if you need to be taken. out the room they look after you it's. like. you know it's busy night there's noises. like a lot of people throw up. how's this for irony i didn't throw up. for my first 10 times. which everyone was like that's super. weird i was like yes especially.

considering my history. really bizarre um but the. um the experience i saw was the one i. needed and there's a really deep. insightful experience you get from. psychedelics which you can often go in. wanting a thing but it isn't what you. need and in this experience what i. wanted was to see my dad and to connect. with my dad but it isn't what i got what. i got was. um a vision of understanding. how everything in this earth is living. in a cycle.

like a beautiful miracle and so it was. less about like seeing. micro things and seeing macro things. being in it. if it's taking me to a place i don't. want to go and a door i'm not ready to. open. you can negotiate you can actually say. i'm not ready for that yet and sometimes. it'll push you and say. open it anyway but sometimes it will. actually listen to you and let you go. sort of back into your body. so it is a really fascinating. experience and what i'd say about it is. it's the number one most important thing. i've ever done in my life. um and especially because.

it's not pleasant um the first time i. did it. was you know the single most. life-changing moment in my life. not only got over my depression you know. i went and spent the whole day with my. mum the next day explained everything. that i'd experienced um you know not a. mum's favorite chat hearing your son. talk about psychedelics but certainly is. in context of like helping me get over. something she was aware i was suffering. from. um the single greatest lesson i've. learned in ayahuasca is about gratitude. so i was going through a period i think.

i was 30. potentially it was a few years later and. uh. things were going well at the time so my. attitude my mindset was i want this i. want that right what's your intention. going in well i want this. i want that that's like how you answer. it because you're not enlightened enough. to understand. the psychedelic experience right yeah. yeah and you can write it down and come. back to and be like that was what i was. looking for in this journey. um but actually the lesson i learned so. i was asking you know how can i 10x what. i do. how can i be more how can i become.

better how can i have more impact you. know. me me me me all these questions um i was. instead transported to. um like basically i'm not sure where in. the world but a very poor part of the. world. where there was this like kid like. begging. in the street basically and i like. became that kid. and i became this person like trying to. get water for his family. and having to walk miles for it and. 50 of my whole entire psychedelic.

experience that night was. literally walking like a mile in this. boy's shoes and. it this lesson sort of came to me about. you know it isn't always about what you. want. and it isn't always about like you know. asking for more. it's actually about having gratitude for. what you have. and when you have enough gratitude for. what you already have you will unlock. the path to more. and you know there's this thing that. i've learned as well which is when you. go into experiences it's helpful to have. a totem. right so i carry a different stone in. for each experience and i have these.

stones at home anyway i have this stone. by the side of my bed um and every. single morning that i wake up the first. thing i see is this stone. literally just a pile of crap stone but. the point is it's imbued with this. message for me. and i wake up every day and i'm grateful. for having running water. in my bathroom there and that is like an. unbelievably poetic. and powerful way to live your life past. an experience to wake up. in camden town in london being you know. so fortunate like i am but with a real.

genuine reminder. of gratitude as opposed to like waking. up groggy and being like hey i'm. grateful for waking up today this is. like it means something to me. so these little triggers and shifts they. emotionally change something in you but. i've learned a lesson the hard way. through ayahuasca as well which is. just because you're learning lessons. this is like all wisdom right it doesn't. matter whether you get it from ayahuasca. or you get it from you know your. instagram posts. you can read it and it can resonate and. you can be like wow that's powerful. without action it means nothing so if.

you don't create then the steps. to be better based on what you learned. you're wasting. a very powerful weekend and painful. weekend. and i've been guilty of that too i've. learned i've learned lessons. that i haven't necessarily followed. through with and. you know and and sometimes it's because. they take bravery. and i feel like i'm not ready for that. bravery up and so we were talking about. the other day. you know with the exactly with personal. branding exactly actually. that's actually a good segue on to that.

topic as well because it's something. that. i know for a fact a lot of people. struggle with in different. forms and um but in but also. specifically with this topic which is. putting yourself out there on the. internet um i know this because. a lot of people have told me but also. because i've. been there right so let's if we rewind a. couple of years in my own life. a guy called ash jones says to me you. should make a youtube channel. i dismiss the idea obviously because i'm. like well people are going to think that. i think i'm.

mahatma gandhi like or like people are. gonna think that i think i'm a genius or. that i think i have all the answers so. i'm not doing that. eventually after two years he sits me. down in this room and it took. about eight or nine hours for us to. shoot a two-minute video. because i couldn't speak i i was. self-conscious and all of these things. and i was plagued by that thought that. my friends back home who knew me in. school. will think oh steve's a [ __ ] he's. changed what's he doing who does he. think he is. and that almost imprisoned me it almost.

stopped me from. doing the thing that actually liberated. me made me the most fulfilled i've ever. been. and by allowing me to be my like true. self. and in fact what i wanted to do was be. true to myself. and um. it felt like i was worried that people. would think i was um. being something i was not trying to fake. myself and so i guess the question that. i have for you is. you know a lot of stuff but you've not. you know you've got a great podcast. secret leaders you've got a new podcast.

as well. which is centered around your brand. heights um. you've struggled to put yourself out. there on the internet and social media. can you explain. why yes i mean such a good question. steve um. but also because we connect a lot on. this right so you're like my unofficial. mentor with a few voice notes where i'm. like. he's got a [ __ ] point here um. so you know it's i guess i'll put it a. slightly different way you know i was. listening to one of your early but you. sent me this actually your podcast with. with him so what was his name ash jones.

yeah. yeah you told me to listen to an episode. which i did and you know he was talking. about the early days of social chain. you learned early that you you were. bringing in most of the revenue like. steve was bringing in most of the. revenue therefore the business decision. made lots of sense to center that around. you. i think when you're doing b2b that makes. loads of sense. the challenge i have is um my products. are b2c right they're for consumers. and putting as much time and effort and. thought and energy. into promoting myself is is mental. energy i should be putting into the.

brand. and you know there is i think uh. probably a reasonable compromise and. also like all things this is a bit of a. developing. scenario however um you know it's a very. fair thing to say. that i'm not the product this is the. product um. inside my company we could all agree. that that is like broadly true right. we're selling a thing we're not selling. me whereas. you know going through exactly the same. experience at social chain you guys if. you weren't in the room you guys would. have come to the same conclusion which. is steve's the greatest like part of the.

funnel here so. we as a company succeed when steve's. succeeding so that's the kind of. marketing final we should back so you. know i can see you sort of. smirking at me because this is the story. i tell myself okay fine. because i was like this doesn't make. this is the story. this is the story that i tell myself it. doesn't mean that it's true um. you know then there's another question. about platforms right so. um you know this isn't a mental health. condition. um but i do have imposter syndrome and. you know we've talked about this in the. past as well but.

um you know the first business that i. scaled. uh was grabble and which is when we. first met yes. um and you know that. that was me going into technology and. fashion having had no experience. previously i was in advertising before. and i love changing industries and i. love challenging myself to completely. wipe the slate. clean and do something new but it comes. with imposter syndrome that's what i've. learned about myself right i'm. i'm full of the internal monologue of. i'm not good enough no one cares what i. think and.

i don't deserve to be doing this it's. someone else's dream. um that doesn't change. right in me that that voice is still. there. um however you know a really good thing. if you're aware if you're consciously. aware of your limitations especially. like some of your mental frailties. creating steps to improve those things. are helpful so. with heights the first thing i did just. over 100 weeks ago we started a. newsletter. because i was like i'm going to get. imposter syndrome so badly. in a space of neuroscience and nutrition.

not neuroscientists or nutrition like. it's going to be. awful for me so i'm going to write a. newsletter every week. and i'm going to read a science paper. every week and i am going to distill. that into three minutes because when you. read something you learn it once and. when you share it you learn it twice so. the process of literally rewriting this. was creating neural pathways. and embedding the information into my. brain so i was like in a hundred weeks. it's actually what i told myself and. it's just. been 101 now um in 100 weeks i won't be. a neuroscientist or a nutritionist. but i will have read over 100 science.

papers and i'll know what science says. is good for your brain. according to journals experts etc which. would be an amazing. step to create an amazing habit to build. to get over my own mental frailties and. my own story of imposter syndrome. so when it comes to social media i feel. like i've got the same thing which is. like. um when my last company failed. and i didn't know what i was going to do. next i looked at like my social media. platforms i was like you know. where am i going to spend time rather.

than where am i going to waste time. ultimately right because you can get. caught up in. this silly game and then thinking. personal branding where do i feel. comfortable that would be a good place. to start. and i chose linkedin and the reason i. chose linkedin was because i told myself. a story which i completely believe to be. true anyway. which is whatever i do next i'm a serial. entrepreneur right as in. i'm fine not having any money i'm fine. working for other people for free doing. all these things but i'm always going to. start something else. myself again so if i know that to be. true it means i'm always going to hire. people. and what do really smart and impressive.

people want from their boss they want to. know who they're working for. they want to know what your values are. they want to know what you believe in. they want to know what kind of things. you share. and so i was like linkedin is the only. place that could credibly do that for me. right. and i actually went from i mean it's not. you know that impressive but i went from. like. 3 000 followers or something to almost. 25 000. on the basis of and as you know there's. no putting money behind anything in. linkedin or anything. literally just by being myself by. writing about how i'd failed. by writing about what i was working on.

next by working and and also all of the. things when you know writing about what. you're working on next is such a. difficult thing to do because it's. probably going to fail as well. and it did you know before heights um. with three iterations of things that i. was publicly putting out there and. getting feedback on and stuff that we. had to kill because it didn't have legs. um it's a horrible time for an. entrepreneur. in between or it can be certainly in. between people like what do you do. and your identity is in flux and you. know you're like do i talk about this. new thing that i've just discovered that. might not be a thing in a month.

preaching here dan i know right exactly. exactly. but it's such a complicated answer to. give in the now yeah. um so anyway like on the personal brand. thing like i decided linkedin was a. place i felt comfortable because i can. be my authentic self because i am an. entrepreneur because i. am someone who is willing to go big. and fail and like actually figure out. why and talk about why and i think this. stuff is so. important um for entrepreneurs to. connect. openly and honestly because i absolutely. hate and the one thing i will not miss. about networking events.

is like going to them and everyone. talking about them killing it you know. that is. literally poison in our society it's. nonsense. so everyone just talking about how. they're killing it stops people from. saying. actually you know shit's really hard. right now this is the problem i'm. dealing with. and this is like how it's making me feel. if you're able to say that to another. entrepreneur because you've created the. container in the environment to be. comfortable to do so. that person can probably help you and if. you are. stuck with the narrative that. everything's going amazingly.

all the time and that's all you're. telling people no one can help you. figure it out when you actually could do. with the help you know it's the other. thing going slightly off piece sorry but. you know my biggest bug bear in. entrepreneurship is stealth mode. i think stealth mode is like the most. stupid thing that an entrepreneur can. claim to be in full stop because as you. know. ideas are worthless execution is. everything anyone that's ever built a. business knows how stupid. it is stealth mode is when people say. like working on a new business in. finance in stealth mode. right i'd love to see i mean not telling.

anybody yeah i'd love to tell you what. my startup is but it's so amazing you'll. steal it so i'm not going to tell you. guys. all the time all the time so many people. do it and. and i i i give the most direct feedback. on linkedin. probably very similar to you like loads. of people asking my help for loads of. things all the time and if i ever see. stealth mode on their thing i'm like. i don't talk to anyone in stealth mode. fyi stealth mode is such a stupid thing. because. it's it's it's like how do i describe. like saying i'm afraid of feedback but. it's yeah but it's also like saying.

i've got something that i can't tell you. yeah why did you tell me you had. something. i know you know just don't start the. conversation with me i'm a curious. person. what it is but you know you're attention. seeking but you don't want. to tell it's like it's a weird form of. like i don't know flirtation i don't. know um. but i want to get to this point about. why you. we have this conversation yeah like a. week or two ago about. instagram and making videos of yourself. and putting your ideas out there. what is it that's stopping you doing.

that you talked about imposter syndrome. i guess that kind of relates to the. business side of things more what's. stopping you. going on instagram putting a video on. your instagram and saying. this is what i think these are my ideas. comment below if you agree. yeah you're it's a great question um. so i guess as a starting point like it's. worth saying that. i think a very healthy way to approach. stuff like this in your life is to to. choose a place build confidence and go. on from there. so i feel like that's what i did with. linkedin i understood that that's the. place where i'd feel.

least impostery and so i'd start there. now. you know i picked up on on twitter i. mean twitter is. like my favorite platform that's when i. spend probably the most time on um. but you know it's it's got a very short. half-life so it's kind of impossible to. to consistently come up with gems um. instagram you know to me was this place. where. just beautiful people live young. beautiful people live and that's all. anyone's interested in. and that's not really my world right i'm. interested in challenge i'm interested. in mental health i'm interested in.

stories. um and i interestingly i wasn't finding. that on instagram so i was like what am. i doing i don't really belong in this. place. at all um i'd say like a hundred percent. like inspired by the way that you've. approached your instagram like sharing. insights because insights and like. distilling my thoughts into something. and writing them down. that is something that i do i just don't. publish them or i was on linkedin. so actually like what i've now started. doing on instagram is like literally. taking a leaf out of your book. after our chat which is going through.

some of my high performing linkedin. posts that you know might have got one. or two thousand likes and being like if. it was popular there. i guess it'll be popular let's have a go. and trying to get over it. now slowly but surely but it's this. constant. belief that no one wants to hear what i. have to say yes. of course and that's what i was getting. at and like where. does what are the forces that are. at play which are making it feel like. some. like psychological discomfort if you are. to.

tell the world what you think on. instagram let's say what. in your mind what is it friends back. home is it this particular person. sometimes i can think of a particular. person. and i can think that person from four. years ago is going to think i'm a dick. 100 dude like the thing that i've. learned which is so interesting is. 90 percent of my fear of what people. will think is based on my school friends. yes who like you know i only speak to a. bunch of them now you know identity is. such an interesting thing and you know. you have it when you're.

um you'll be going through it right now. and i empathize right you're not steve. from social chain anymore. yeah right and that's you know for ages. you know i was down from gravel now i'm. down from heights. um you know people do that and that's. fine but it's important you don't over. compensate that identity for yourself. attached to your business because we're. all on a path and we're going to go. through a journey and the journey. the stories are going to change and when. you over attach yourself to a particular. part of the journey. is where you can find struggle and. that's and. on that point you build your life around.

that identity so your friends. the you me your music your interests and. so you you would have collected. through your life a bunch of people who. know dan as this. exactly and you're gonna have to shed. some of them potentially. by by stepping into your new identity. 100 and that's a i guess a conflict or a. 100 and it's difficult right but as you. grow you edit. and you know you need to really consider. who you're editing out of your life and. who you're welcoming into your life. and i think you know there's the the. practical reality that what was good for.

you five years ago is no good for you. right now. and frankly you know the highest. leverage decision you can make i'm still. terrible at this by the way. but the highest leverage decision you. can make is picking what to say no to. and the hardest thing you can do is say. no to opportunities that you would. definitely say yes to. so you know that includes friends that. includes saying i don't have time for. this friend anymore. or this identity this part of my. identity anymore. even though i like it i like them i like.

all this stuff because. frankly there's you know this. shedding almost that we do as human. beings um. you know the you know in reptile form. it's very physical. right they're literally shedding a skin. but as humans you don't see this change. but it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. and we go in these cycles and i think a. lot of. you know mental health conditioning is. attached to. our holding onto the past and refusing. to sort of embrace the future. and that's why you know i think it's. really important.

to set out a clear understanding of your. purpose a clear understanding of the. things you will say no to and won't say. no to. and acknowledging that that changes. right so i do an exercise like this. every year. um and it takes about five or six hours. i do it with my wife it's like a whole. massive. like briefing document essentially on. your vision your purpose your friends. like all of this stuff. um spending the time thoughtfully. thinking about these things which people. do not do enough of. is so important because if you're not. reflective and you're not spending time.

thinking manifesting essentially who you. want to be in the future. then i think you're going to miss a. massive opportunity to grow. um you know i because you know i work in. the brain space now. in in brain care neuroscience. you call that neuroplasticity right it's. this idea that the brain will grow it's. plastic and. it's essentially changing in whatever. direction you choose to take it in. if you are episode 53 of chapter two we. talked about this on the last. episode so it's very relevant oh really.

okay fine yeah so neuroplasticity is. that. um if you are into spirituality like i. am then it's called manifestation right. it's spending the time thinking about. what you're gonna do and how you're. gonna get that. and then to put it into like super. business terms if you're into business. it's called planning and execution so. there are these different ways to. articulate the same point but the point. is. if you just spend your days going um bit. by bit. not really thinking about where you're. going to go and what it means to you. it'd be very hard for you to make good.

decisions and frankly. and this i guess actually speaking like. personal branding a more popular post i. did recently. was about stamina and the things i've. learned about rest which is that. as a founder and a ceo you learn that. you're not paid for your stamina right. you pay. yeah you pay mo gorda for sorry not mo. called mo farah for his stamina right. he's got to run a [ __ ] 10k that's. stamina right that's what athletes are. paid for. i'm paid for my decision making people.

invest in me and they invest in heights. for my decision-making abilities and. overworking. giving yourself burnout not taking space. to rest. not listening to what you know to be. true and spending the time planning. that's bad decision-making yeah um if. you can't do those things for your own. body. you know it's like what i said is if you. can't be the ceo of your body. you do not earn the right to be the ceo. of your company you gotta you've got to. look after. your mental state and your physical body.

first by thinking. and finding the space carving out the. space to think. what does good decisions look like that. fit my purpose and where i'm looking to. go. and if you can do that and you can. answer those things you actually start. to learn things start to add up. and and that kind of segues back to the. initial tweet where. you talked about depression anxiety. banner and insomnia. so let's talk about burnout then it's a. very. um a very popular topic i actually think. one of the most. listened to episode of this podcast was.

the top was the one about burnout. and us being a burnout generation and. how we've kind of glamorized it we're. optimizing our lives so we can fill it. with more things to do. did you burn out how did you burn out. and you understand. why you burnt out 100 um. you know garyvee is a very clever man. um very intelligent but you know he has. created a negative impact on society. that he would probably be upset about. because he seems to be a lovely man that. really deeply cares about stuff from. what i can. see i believe his authenticity but he.

has created hustle culture. and hustle porn and you know what i met. gary vee had him on this podcast. and you're right i think in every um. depiction of him there he's a genuinely. authentic person you meet him and think. you are who i thought you were online um. and you're completely right. in the sense that because he's being his. authentic self which we can't. you know uh um we can't criticize anyone.

for being in fact that's what we tell. everyone to be be. yourself and chat you know and be. willing to share it with the world. the issue i think as you're pointing out. is his. lack of appreciation that. about nuance and that everyone is. fundamentally different and everyone's. not gary vee i had that problem too when. i started. i couldn't understand why people weren't. sacrificing their lives to build. businesses and working until four in the. morning and sleeping under the desk. i thought everyone that wasn't doing. that was both an idiot and. inferior and wasting their time and.

wasting that time and they would never. be happy. because as far as steve's bartlett's. brain could tell him. that was happiness yeah and because like. all of the pain that you suffer is part. of. part of the game and yeah but that stuff. isn't. this is the thing right that stuff isn't. not true you do have to grow. growth is painful and you will have. sleepless nights and all the other bits. and pieces that is part of the parcel. the thing where we confuse this is it's. all mutually exclusive aka. my identity has to be that and only that. because that's how gary v. and like a few other geniuses in society.

have got to the top of their games. but here's the thing like there's two. reasons why i had burnout last time. the first was because i wasn't happy on. what i was working and. running a startup can feel a bit like a. cage sometimes so. uh unless you're really sure i say this. all entrepreneurs all the time. are you sure this is the company you. want to build because if it's not. you're going to be doing it anyway and. then you are your own. bird keeper you have locked yourself in. a cage and that's what i did with.

grabble. i got lucky i found a niche an. opportunity. it grew exponentially really quickly. millions of downloads had a million. monthly active users in our end we had. like a you know even. acquisition that failed sadly but you. know would have made us millionaires was. a real. journey with that company it was fashion. for tinder basically yeah. exactly and it was a real it was a real. exciting journey but. at no point did i enjoy it um really. like. not at no point my ego enjoyed it right.

and we won loads of awards. um you know we won the award we wanted. like we were like we just want to be. written about in techcrunch and all this. stuff and in 2017 we won best mobile. startup in europe over depop at the. techcrunch europas. we didn't even turn up to that awards to. take that award. because i was having such a bad time. mentally i didn't even go to the awards. of a ceremony my friend picked up that. trophy. and took a photo on our behalf i was. sitting at home drinking whiskey feeling. really terrible about myself. um why because.

that was living someone else's dream i. didn't care about fashion. um what was the force that made you live. someone else's dream. yeah good question uh a bit of. serendipity in the sense of. um you know listening to users going on. a bit of a journey and the product sort. of developing. and then it getting catching fire before. you really have an opportunity. to stop and say no that's not really for. me. like you were getting dragged you. weren't pulling a bit yeah a bit but. then at the same time like you know. like everyone i'm scared of failure so i.

didn't want to be a failure so i wanted. to make it work and you know by hook or. by crook i was willing to like push. really hard to make it work and you know. i look back on my time with grapple and. other than like working hard i was. working against my purpose and i could. feel it and when people ask me i'm. actually like as you know. always to my detriment honest so. i would tell people including the wrong. people including investors that you know. my heart really isn't in it and like all. this stuff. because you know all i had left for. authenticity was to be honest in these. conversations with other people you know.

i've just finished writing my book. um not trying to plug it although happy. sexy millionaires happy sexy. millionaire available on all bookshelves. no it's not pre-order um. but there's a chapter in there where i. really investigate burnout and the. reason there's topics like. self-awareness and burnout which. we haven't quite yet properly defined. everyone throws it out there on. instagram oh i'm feeling burnt out. but nobody's like gone down the rabbit. hole to figure out the innate causes or. the psychological or social causes of it. so i just wanted to like go as far down. as i could go.

and i tend to believe the depth that. i've got to with my thinking and the. research that i've done. is that you typically get um you stand a. higher chance of burnout in situations. where you are extrinsically motivated um. to do x activity because i view my life. and i think about all the things that i. do. intrinsically like walking i've never. got burnt out walking my dog. or playing with my dog you know i've. never got burnt out um. like reading books that i love and those. kinds of things but.

when it comes to getting paid to. do something that i don't intrinsically. enjoy doing. burnout is almost inevitable at some. point not just by now right but then my. but then motivation and i started. looking at motivation and the spectrum. it sits on of on one end being totally. uh extrinsic you're literally doing it. because you're forced to. and then on the other end doing it. because it's an innate passion. an intrinsic passion and all of the. things on this end where you. you're paid and you're forced to burn. out seems to show up.

and on the other end when it's it's. intrinsic and you love it and you're. doing it for the sake of doing it. i never get burned out and my motivation. seems to last the course of time so i. wanted to see if that resonates with you. yeah but let me tell you something else. that's interesting that i'm i'm. consciously aware of because i've had. burnout and by the way my experience of. it was you know i just couldn't get out. of bed for a month. really um that was it i basically just. stayed in bed and i just like i couldn't. face going to the office i couldn't face. leaving my. team in the office yeah and you're lying. in bed well i got my co-founder and i. just like. explained that i'd literally i didn't.

know what it was at the time i was like. i think it might be depression i didn't. know what it was though this is the. thing i probably didn't even say those. words. how did it feel um just like just no. energy whatsoever just like no. no ability a bit like when i had corona. virus to be honest just like zonked. um not and nothing i was doing was able. to make me feel like i was getting the. energy. i think the reason why as well was um. again i like i'm a helpful guy i really. believe in my greatest superpower full. stop is connecting people right i've got. infinite numbers of ways i've connected.

people eight people have got married. that i've introduced you know they say. three in heaven but you know i don't. quite believe in heaven so. it's irrelevant but point being um. you know so many co-founders introduced. i really just believe in the serendipity. of creating. you know moments where you know that. person and that person just should have. that chat. and i force it to happen so because of. that because i really believe in. serendipity as well. um i do try and say yes to people and. help them out so what was happening to. me at gravel was.

we were flying we were like number one. in the app store and all this stuff so. the inbounds start coming like thick and. fast right and so i was like. i can't do this the way i was doing it. which is like all over the place. i'll go to old street at 6 00 a.m. every single tuesday and wednesday um. and between six and nine i'll do like. sessions right. if you come meet me between that time. and like your 45 minute slot. i'll fit you in and then tuesday and. wednesday became tuesday to thursday and. then before i knew i was doing it like. almost every single day. trying to be so helpful and it was great.

because i i i. get loads of energy from that right like. so much there's. you know great quote of you know there's. no such thing as altruism because you're. ultimately doing it for yourself and i. believe that. um however so it's like find your. motivation and then turn. it but i overdid it and so the result. the net result was like one day i woke. up from my alarm trying to do it and i. like basically couldn't move. and that alarm basically you know kept. going for the next few days and i was. like nope. i just can't do it i can't go to work i. can't get out of bed.

it's really like it's really strange. time but. the thing that's really interesting to. me this time right so i analyzed that as. partly burned out and i was trying to do. too much to and. not spending enough time on myself not. having any rest not. being sensible about my personal space. and my life. which was stupid but the kind of thing. you learned the hard way quite often. and then the other thing was obviously. like i was working on a business that i. wasn't very happy and i was having more. fun meeting these people and helping. like make introductions than i was. working my own business.

now with heights you know very. consciously aware of the opposite. problem to be true so we just talked. about burnout from some of your insights. right. one of my fears from heights is you know. i won't see burnout coming. because now i'm living my purpose now i. am so passionate. i get so much motivation and pleasure. from working on heights that i could do. this 24. 7 um and i diarize. stopping myself right i literally put in. my diary to stop. like all my things rest naps peloton.

like all of the things like i talked to. you earlier about like my shakti. meditation these things are in my diary. because if it's in my calendar i'm going. to pay attention to it and i'm going to. respect it and if i don't i won't. respect my own boundaries because i know. that i'm intrinsically a bit of a. workaholic. and if i'm passionate you can't stop me. so i have to stop myself. sure and knowing you know taking. preventative measures towards things. like burnout. if you are happy um i think has been a. really like mature.

decision that i'm really proud of taking. this time around because it's a bit like. the imposter syndrome right how am i. going to overcome it i'll write a. newsletter every week great i feel way. less. like that now same thing burn out i. don't feel like i'm going to get burned. even though i've been. sitting in my bedroom pitching you know. to investors like all of february and. march like it's not. a great existence because of lockdown. and if i said you yeah listen. uh i'm the same i'm a workaholic and all. these things i'm an entrepreneur i'm. going to build a big business. dan what is the one thing i can do to. avoid myself getting burnout what would.

you. say that is you would say is diarizing. and scheduling time. to do other things like you know i had. near l on this podcast and he talked. about. he writes the book indestructible he. talks about how he will literally. schedule time in his diary to. see his to spend some time with his. partner and take his kids for a walk and. and those kinds of things is that what. you're saying you're saying yeah yeah. i mean i've got um i do have like a list. of habits that i've created for myself. and you know talking about habit. formation um terrible error everyone.

makes is like oh i'll listen to dan i'll. do all of these you know habits no i. pick like one new one a year. to be honest with you my number one. mental health hack full stop. um that i say to everyone everyone. always asks me my one thing mine's going. for a walk. um you know spending an hour or so. walking if you can do that without being. distracted i mean. i listen to podcasts and audio books but. i also go for some where i don't take. anything with me and i just go for the. walk. um that's my number one health hack um. because it's not only good for your. brain but good for your body.

and because it puts you into there's two. things one we live in london. actually to be honest like gets way. worse of rep about rain than. you know you would think because i don't. go out with a raincoat most days. um but even if it's raining you still go. out and that's a great moment to just be. with the elements and accept that you. know things aren't always perfect even. the manifestation of rain. you know it's a great moment to just go. out and be like things aren't perfect. but i owe it to myself. for my own rest and for my own space to. do this today. and the other reason honestly is because.

on average i get to listen to about 50. books a year just by doing that one. thing so as someone who's like a. lifelong learner and happiest when i'm. learning. the amount of books that i've devoured. by stacking that. you know habit onto my daily walk has. been the fastest way to grow. yeah and so we talked about burn out. there the next thing so and that's that. was during your time at gravel. the next thing from that tweet was. anxiety. yeah so the anxiety and insomnia were. completely. linked with each other so a really.

really fascinating experience. to me the most interesting of all of. them really because. at the time i got and so at the time i. got insomnia. and this is when anxiety starts to build. because anxiety does go with it insomnia. very well because. uh you start to get scared of going to. sleep which builds anxiety you can't. really sleep when you've got anxiety so. it's like a self-fulfilling prophecy. like every single night so i had. insomnia for six months. and my symptoms were i'd go to sleep at.

midnight but i'd wake up at 2am. and at 2am i was wide awake and there. was no going back to sleep whatsoever no. matter what i did. so this was a time when business was. going well i was pretty happy in life i. was getting married. um yes my dad had passed away but my mom. had just recovered from cancer. so i'd had like the whole fear of her. and she's already had it before and. recovered once so very unlikely to. recover the second time but she had i. have a roof over my head i practice. gratitude. you know like i am just that archetypal. [ __ ] that's just too smug for the. world.

and i just suddenly. couldn't sleep and i was like i don't. understand. like i have everything that i wanted and. i'm not i don't even want much. you know i've worked on that stuff so. where has this come from. and you know. basically chronic anxiety the feeling of. chronic anxiety. is lots of sweating lots of self-doubt. um lots of um almost like a bit of a. personality.

change in me you know outwardly i'm. quite confident but you know this. experience with anxiety was sort of. really making me question everything. about what i say. how i feel who i am and you know. it was in this cycle where if i'm about. to go to sleep. i'm not going to be able to go to sleep. because of this you know these feelings. of doubt. and stories i'm telling myself and it. became this perpetual illness and by the. way i. tried so many things right because when. you say doubt. yeah and the story self-doubt self-doubt. about business. self-doubt about business self-doubt.

about who i am um. and about why i'm feeling like this. anxiety is such a complicated thing. because. um you know there's a great uh i think. it's by lao tzu. the it's not a perfect um verbatim. quote but he said something like. depression is a symptom of sadness for. the past we've lived. anxiety is obsession and confusion over. the future you're gonna have and that's. why like mindfulness and being present. is the antidote. and i think i really resonate with that. because you know my own depression. experience was.

loss of my father the past my anxiety. was like the person. hey was anxiety about the night i night. sleep i'm about to not have. but also like you know who who am i. going to be what's going to happen. how long can i live like this feels like. it's self-fulfilling in a way as well. exactly so the the truth is i tried all. these different things so like i went to. i did therapy i did sleep therapy i used. all the apps calm sleepio. i tried you know uh cutting out alcohol. i tried drinking. much more alcohol like i tried you know.

like you name it i'd like not smoked. weed for a while i was like right that's. it getting a weed habit back. you know like anything that you could. possibly do to just like stay. zonked but i went to the doctor and he. recommended me sleeping pills. but that really irked me i mean we just. talked about lost connections johan. hurry right. um i don't appreciate medication. that will work that night as solving my. problem and i'm smart enough to know. that it wouldn't solve my problem it. would just help me sleep that night. so i've still got those sleeping pills. and i never use them and i kept on going.

for this journey the search for why. this was happening and it led me in the. end to a dietitian. which i'd never worked with before and. by the way i didn't even know what a. dietitian was and heard of nutritionists. because isn't that just. everyone on instagram um but a dietitian. uh had no idea but it turns out a. dietitian is basically a nutritionist. with a scientific degree they can work. in the nhs and they work with sick. people. so if you have a sick problem like. insomnia you go to a dietitian and they. will literally. tell you medically what they can do to. affect your.

your experience and she just said to me. um. she basically asked me about what i was. eating and my habits and like all this. kind of stuff and i told her and this is. someone who i think i'm quite healthy. generally speaking and she just said. um you're basically not getting enough. brain food and i was like. i don't even know what that means like i. don't understand the context of that. statement and she was like well. let me put it this way your brain is an. organ right. it's 60 fat 90 of the fat in your brain. is this one compound called dha and most.

people that come to me. with essentially mental health problems. which is what you currently have. have nutritional deficiencies and don't. realize there are three main things that. i would recommend in your condition. one is omega-3s the other is b vitamins. because again that's for energy so she. explained that i'm having a spike at 2. am. so i need that spike not to happen i. need to have like much more slow release. of b vitamins in my energy supply in my. body every day. and then the third thing was blueberry. extract because it's an antioxidant and. would help make lymphatic system whilst.

i slept right. she's saying this stuff to me i'm like. so skeptical i can't even tell you not. only not a supplement taker. um but she's now recommending me three. supplements and i've been given pills by. the doctor and i'm like. i mean like come on how is this gonna be. any better. so you can imagine my complete and utter. surprise when. i took those three things i mean they. were very expensive they were like. medically prescribed ones so super. potent. from you know i think it was whole foods. or planet organic. they were pricey but within two weeks i.

was sleeping like a baby and i wasn't i. wasn't feeling anxiety. and when you have a moment like that in. your life and you know this because. you're a deeply. inquisitive person it makes you stop. and it makes you go hold on a second. like. this was so simply solved i don't. actually believe it to be true. this must be placebo this must be. finally my placebo that has caused this. um instead i did what i do i'm quite. nerdy i started reading science papers.

because i kind of you know the one thing. i do hate on instagram is like. everyone's a nutritionist everyone's at. this everyone's at that i'm like. i don't want to listen to some guy that. takes nootropics telling me. about like my brain and mental. performance i want to see what. scientists that don't take any credit. actually have to say about this stuff. and i learned. that there are thousands literally of. science papers this is why i did the. newsletter i knew i'd never run out of. content it's like. literally the deepest well of content. ever ever ever to do what i'm doing. um there were thousands of science.

papers on all of these ingredients and. how they impact. not just your mental health below the. baseline so if you're suffering from. insomnia if you're suffering from. anxiety even if you've got depression. schizophrenia like. so many medical papers scientific. journals sorry. um about the impact of taking a high. supplementation of xyz or obviously. much more food of that particular. ingredient. and the impact it's had and then when. you're at the baseline. all of these examples about nutrition.

impacting your mental performance. so this is things like decision making. focus energy like all of the things you. we want in life right no one wants to. really be recovering from a mental. health problem they want to be. at their baseline and thriving and it. just took me by so much surprise because. i was like well if this isn't. like if this is so well known in science. why didn't i know about it i was working. in shoreditch. at a scaling startup like bearded. glasses hipster [ __ ]. like you know keto vegan like yes i've. heard of all of them.

um all my friends intermittent fast yada. yada. this is just like common sense brain. food why is that not a thing that people. know about why is. taking care of your brain not something. anyone's actually talked about clearly. and. actually found a really meaningful way. to communicate. what that stands for and what science. papers do really badly. is like you know when i synthesize them. there's about two or three sentences. that are saying the point but it's just. covered with jargon they're boring as. [ __ ] um so i was like.

first step newsletter i will add some. emojis and some lols and make it. millennial and fun and i will get people. to read science papers without even. realizing they're necessarily reading. them so. every week you'll learn something from a. scientific journal which i will link. back to that you can click and by the. way no one clicks it. and you can learn something that science. says is good for your brain every week. and that is essentially how the journey. with heights actually started with this. like realization that something as. you know when you you know the beautiful. moment in life where you can spot.

an opportunity so big. and actually solved by the power of. communication and brand. um you know a lot of people say brand. and comms that is. not a market strategy that is not. defensible. i think those people are idiots and the. wrong market because. you know my counter to that is do you. think. that buddhist monks got everyone. meditating or was it calm. and headspace do you think that we.

love to run because we watch the. olympics or is it nike getting in our. heads. do you think that people around the. world are doing yoga because of like you. know some ashram or do we actually think. it's lululemon. brands create change in the world. that we want to see and brands connect. with human beings and create communities. and the power of social media and. standing for something. is where brands take something that was. always done before anyway. stick a tick on a shoe it's still just a. shoe like lululemon like it's just like.

a little logo an omega logo. on pants it doesn't matter the way that. you express what you do and why you do. it is the thing that has the power to. change. and my opinion and my own experience of. being. you know in that shoreditch hipster [ __ ]. area where you just know about things. like early and trends to have never come. into contact with something so important. that can have such an impact as. nutrition and mental health. nutrition and taking care of your brain. to me. felt like a calling right i've just.

suffered for six months. i've overcome something this is all i. want to do with my life. and so you started heights and so i. started heights how's it going. great question we launched january the. 6th in a pandemic. well not in a pandemic yet i have to say. you know i saw this on my facebook feed. and um i think i messaged you about. investing in the company. just because it was beautiful i saw the. branding on the website and the way that. you'd done the website and i was like. this team get branding and in the direct.

to consumer world it's interesting what. you were just saying there about. comms and like the way that i hear it is. like storytelling and. um platforms um. enabling um. almost democratizing the access to like. build great products now because back in. like if we think about nike shelf space. or you think about the the you know the. power that the unilevers have you're. in fact not the war isn't always. storytelling. and brand or comms it's in fact like. knowing a guy or price points.

but in the direct to consumer social. media world brand and. comms and storytelling can win and. product design. exactly in product design which is a. huge part of the story and that for me. was beautiful so i. i uh i was straight in there to try and. invest in your company and. i mean you know you know for a fact that. i've been taking heights ever since. january i think yeah yeah december maybe. what's your experience been as a. customer then i i love it and you know. this is and this is this is where i. really. this is why i always also really wanted. to talk to you today so there is. probably.

several people on a spectrum of like you. know devout. um vitamin takers or and then there's. people that don't understand. or believe in it yeah i was that yeah. and so how do you confront the. skepticism because with products like. this. it is hard for the user to establish. cause and effect. and like there's other factors that. might happen in my life that may cause. an effect almost in. establishable so like say i take my i. take the the heights for one week. straight. but in that week i have just the worst. mental health week because of other.

factors. how do i know so i guess it yeah it's a. great question. i think there's two parts to this right. so one is um. like supplements deserve a bad rep this. is the most important thing to address. first and foremost because when i went i. was like why is she giving me this like. prescribed stuff i kind of just go to. holland and barrow or boots and just buy. the things that she says there. um it turns out there's this weird. marketing thing in supplements where. you can put a minimum in so there's the. amount according to science that will. have an impact on your body brain. whatever. and then there's a marketing amount. which is way lower that you're allowed.

to put in on that product so if you say. like vitabiotics or. you know a lot of products there's an. asterisk on those boxes they're legally. obliged to tell you tiny small print on. the back that. what you're taking is actually a. fraction of the daily amount that you're. meant to have according to science but. marketing wise they can say promotes. healthy this promotes healthy that. um you know my favorite story on this is. probably uh seven seas the biggest amiga. right because we all grew up as children. our parents give us seven cs and you. know that's the biggest amiga three. brand in the whole entire world.

now every single day according to. science we're meant to have a minimum. like an rda if you will. 250 milligrams of omega-3s right you can. get it from your food or you can get it. from these pills. as a safety net it's essentially what a. supplement is right is if you're not. getting the food. supplement not instead of don't take. supplements instead of eating they're. supplements. so it's like a safety net now that 250. milligrams the minimum you can put in is. 45 milligrams. so guess how much seven seas put into. their number one best-selling product. 45 on the dot and that means you have to.

take seven c's for six days straight. just to get one day's worth of the. scientific dose you're meant to get but. it's all small print and a consumer. doesn't see that and supplements for. whatever reason have been able to do. that so. when we went into our supplement design. right this was the awesome thing me and. my business partner joel. came from a tech background at this. point right we've done user experience. we've done all this stuff and we are. very much into this idea of. because we're not from this space we're. going to win because we are going to. approach this completely differently a. we start with community building a.

newsletter and an audience. asking questions to that audience about. what we should do and how we should do. it and can we see how they behave. so here are the things that we learn. most people like a lot of people are. super open-minded. about taking supplements starting. supplements right the problem with. supplements is it can be very difficult. to feel the impact or know they're. working and so like a lot of things with. prevention and well-being in general. it's a commitment to the person you want. to become more so than it is like a. medication which cures a problem and. you're like. oh that got fixed that's great that's. over so. you know we got really fascinated by.

this idea of like how can you help. people build habits with our product. design how can we. overcome this problem that supplements. have the you know in january massive. surge loads of people start but very few. people continue. if you can get past the hurdle of. someone trying something your job as an. entrepreneur is to figure out how to. make them a real customer. not just a first-time buyer um you know. you talked about that bottle. that bottle was designed with our. newsletter audience by going into. people's homes. and asking them very weirdly and quite. often the wives show us what you do with.

your supplements. and everyone has these supplement. cupboards because we neither of us were. supplement takers before like we even. started this right. so we didn't know what normal behavior. was which means you get to ask these. great open questions which is where you. get the best answers. so like everyone has a supplement. covered reason. they all look the same and what happens. is psychologically and we got told this. the whole time. people basically open their cupboards. see so many that are like broken. promises at the time they promised they. were going to start and didn't continue. i feel attacked yeah they feel guilty. they feel guilty and they're like well i.

can't just take the vitamin c because i. said i'd take d i said i take that and. everything else and they're always. separate. so people just give up and you know. there's two things to that there's one. there's sort of like guilt about the. promises that you were like with the. person you wanted to be. and then the second is just again you. know it's set and setting or. you know out of sight out of mind so but. also for me. it's i will complete you completely. right i'll commit to what this person. that i want to be which is. i'm going to develop this new healthy. habit which involves me taking zinc. every morning or whatever. i do it for three days and if you look.

at that you know famously but. maybe miss attributed quote from. einstein doing the same thing over. and over again and insanity yeah and not. getting and getting the same results. i'll take zinc for three days. and because i can't see a difference. it's much like going to the gym for a. lot of people although. you do eventually see a difference with. the gym and the great thing about when. you get to the gym is you get the pump. and you use a little bit of sweat so you. think something's going on when i take. my zinc. nothing next day nothing no so it's. almost like a belief.

and uh and that's i think what i've. struggled with historically. so here's here's the thing so like we. hear this kind of stuff with heights and. we. we love this because it's like. opportunity right it's like challenging. opportunity. that's how everyone did it well that's. dumb we're gonna do it better so like. our first thing was. um the number one reason most people do. not continue is because they forget. out of sight out of mind so we designed. a bottle that. passed the wife test that wives were. like yes i'd put that on my bedside. table. or yes i'd have that out in my living. room like you've just done right you've.

got your bottle there but there's no. other supplements there it's because it. looks nice and because it makes you feel. good because you're looking after your. brain and it's there it's like virtue. signaling. exactly it's actually signaling to. yourself completely i'm the kind of guy. that looks after myself. i look after my most important organ and. this is my symbol of doing that. so that was like an important first step. then you know the capsules themselves. are in like patented clever capsules so. you've seen like there's omega-3 on the. outside. the nutrients on the inside that's. important because. we learned that lots of people take. supplements at different times of the. day ritualizing when you build a habit.

is really important so if. we could make these that you don't have. to have them with food like you do with. most supplements. because of the absorption the absorption. happens because the dha omega-3 on the. outside is fat. when this when this dissolves in your. gut the new literally the capsule. dissolves the outer capsule with the. inner capsule at the same time the. nutrients have been dissolved in fat. that is the same effect as what you get. from food. so those capsules have been designed. also around habits to help people pick a. time. and you know a lot of people don't eat. breakfast right and so they just end up.

forgetting their supplements full stop. so we did it so that you can start the. same time so you get ritualized like. with by having the bottle out and you. see it. and then the most important part which. is communication. so we actually have something like a. brain health score essentially it's like. an algorithm put together by a couple of. neuroscientist phds. and you take it before you start and. again. we do a 15-day check-in and then before. we send you your next month because it's. a subscription through the letterbox. before we send you your next month we. ask you to take it again. now what happens for most people in the.

first month let's be real right. like you just said you know. scientifically typically speaking. this product will last will take three. months for you to feel anything. like all supplements so it's a bit of a. long game right you have to believe in. that. now in the first month for you to feel. an impact. maybe you will because where your. nutritional levels were coming from and. your mental state was coming from. but maybe you won't so how can we help. nudge you there well we can give you. awareness so. yeah so we sent people that this brain.

health survey right and you know. self-administering but it gives you a. bit of a baseline. a score at the end of like you know. where you are right now and then we. start sending you. coaching comms like very short emails. and snappy bits of information about how. to take care of your brain that you. might not have thought about things that. are. really small little habits that you can. build in and people. start to read them they have an. unbelievably high open rate because. you've just taken the first step to. choosing to look after your brain. so from that point on why wouldn't you. read the emails of the thing that's. coaching you to. do those habits and what we find is in.

the first 25 days or something. like 90 i think it's more than that like. 93. of people have improved their brain. health score on a self-administered. basis. from paying attention right not from the. vitamins. not from anything else but suddenly. they're interacting with the brand. they're and they're welcoming a brand. into their life whose sole focus is. about how you can take care of your. brain. you've got all these really interesting. very very respected people. just helping to coach you on your. journey um and that.

is such an important part of this. because. you do have the disbelief in the first. couple of months right. and people like to be able to see and. measure improvements and. that's hard to do instantly with. supplements but it isn't hard to affect. how someone feels and help encourage. them to make changes in their own. lifestyle that will make them feel. better that is the brand's. responsibility and that's our. responsibilities that's what we work. quite hard on so where i'm really. passionate about building this brand is. as a community. it started as a newsletter community is. everything to me bringing people.

along on this journey of brain care and. understanding why it's important. you know the amount of money that we. spend on skin care or hair care every. day. but nothing on brain care the most. important organ in our body. is so completely normalized in society. to have skin care. and hair care rituals and budgets in. households. but not for our brains and so you going. back to the business side of things. um you started grabbing yeah didn't go. well yeah and you were an estimation of. it you said you know. you struggled with fears of failure and. it failed one i was.

when you were talking about imposter. syndrome. and when you and and when you're talking. about some sort of confidence issues. around putting yourself out there. all of those things seem to sit in. contrast to something else you said. which is. that you're the type i think this is a. not a verbatim quote but you said it. earlier on you said you're the type of. person that's just going to keep. starting and you know you're going to. fail potentially. and that seems like someone that's high. confidence and very very self-assured. and is not scared at all. and then the other side of you seems.

like someone that is. the antithesis of that so i'm wondering. how you you kind of like content. because i i do believe that you will. save that. god forbid not that i believe in god as. you know now um but you believe in. forbid. yeah i believe in forbid forbid um. heights doesn't go to plan. um reaches its lows yeah that's another. way of saying it you will start another. business at some point based around. something else how do you. find the guts. to keep going despite.

failure and i'm guessing maybe it speaks. to your. motivations as to why you wanted to be. an entrepreneur in the first place right. i'm intrinsically motivated by. growth and learning so the way that i. like to think of myself. is oh someone else said this to me and i. just i thought it was so poetic and i. was so impressed with her for using. these words which is like a lifelong. intern. um you know this was a founder she'd. gone to stanford had a really successful. career and then. she basically coming to intern at.

heights for a few months and i was like. you know like. i talked to you about i did that in. other companies as well but it was. interesting to me to find someone else. that did that and i was like i mean like. you know i could learn from you rodney. the other way around she's like. i'm a lifelong intern everywhere i go. i'm a lifelong intern and i'm like. i talk about myself as a lifelong. learner but lifelong intern was like. even more powerful right i was like wow. that's. you know it's a real mindset towards you. know. um redefining what success is yeah. because as long as you're learning well. not you i.

as long as i am learning i am fulfilled. and i think we all have this like one. thing we know to be true about ourselves. right. um starting a business is super hard. right and you know. i'm like i say not a nutritionist not. neuroscientist had no experience in the. space have never launched a vertically. integrated supply chain. like from three different countries our. ingredients come to from 10 different. countries. because we literally source the highest. quality so the omega-3 comes from like. canada. and the blueberries come from italy like. nuts. but all of that stuff it's so exciting.

to learn and like the. the opportunity to learn all of these. things are new. gets me out of bed and so the whole like. failing and starting again. you know that's got nothing to do with. you know confidence or lack of or. anything it's got. absolutely everything to do with knowing. where i'm in my uh sweet spot. there's a term that i learned years ago. that sums it up so perfectly which is. icky guy are you familiar with japanese. guy that's me i'm living my icky guy. right now what is it guy uh so icky guys.

japanese term. um basically looks like a venn diagram. on a venn diagram right so you're at the. center. and then the different aspects of things. like you know what makes you happy what. makes other people happy what makes you. money what makes other people fulfilled. it's like ticking off all of these. things. and it's like if you can find that where. you are in the center and you could say. am i contributing to society yes am i. waking up every morning fulfilled yes am. i mentally challenged yes it's like. ticking off all of these things it's. like this weird flower you should.

definitely check out for people watching. and. listening to this podcast on youtube i. will put the ikigai graph. on the screen now yeah it's amazing it's. amazing and and you know and i come back. to it all the time you know i had my. honeymoon in japan because of. uh discovering ikigai really because i'm. like so you know. i'm very spiritual yeah well i had a. spiritual wedding in ibiza and then i. did my my honeymoon in japan and you. know it was all it was like hikes and. spiritual searches and stuff and. you know there's another fantastic uh. japanese proverb which is. uh literally translated as fall seven.

rise eight but what it means is like if. you fall down. seven times rise up the eighth and you. you we talked about success and failure. just in that moment and you said that. i think you immediately defaulted to. talking about. the purpose which was you love. progression. sort of intellectual progression growth. and learning and. it almost seems to me that one of the. ways to escape from the fear of failure. if you even think about what happened at. grabble the faith you describe that as a. failure.

one of the ways to escape from the from. ever failing again. is by redefining what success is. redefining what failure is and it sounds. like you've almost redefined success now. as. growth and learning and you and you. won't fail at that even if the company. goes down. right so this is like it's almost like. you've developed a strategy somehow not. to be able to fail again because failure. now isn't losing the company. it's losing your per losing your way. like you did with grabling becoming. someone you're not and being. extrinsically motivated and. it's exactly that and you know i think.

the opportunity. that we all have as human beings to be. creative is to. certainly accept that things are not. going to go on a straight path. but you know when when confronted with. these. like horrible moments of like things. like failure and everyone else thinking. that you're a failure. blow gets softened a lot when you get to. reflect and think about what you learned. you know really interesting experience. that uh joel and i did. after failing was we went to uh business. psychologists.

and we had a facilitated sessions over. the course of a week. with the this was your fault that was my. fault i take blame for this i blame you. for that letting it all out right. and then we spoke about you know what. our we did personality tests and we. looked at where our crossovers were and. we had like for the first time a real. clear. view of strengths and weaknesses gaps. and could map out some of the poor. mistakes and. decisions that we'd made that led to. failure and. interestingly like you know rehiring in. in heights this time. the thing that we've had for the last.

year before we had any employees was a. set of company values. and hiring processes and all sorts of. like interview tips and hiring docs. based on our values before we hired our. first person we must have had them for. nine to 12 months. because we were so certain of. understanding who we are and what we. stand for. being the company values and that those. company values lead to hiring the right. people with the right mindset and that. those people. are the greatest leverage you could have. as a founder to do less of the stuff. yourself. and enable brilliant people to take it.

forward um. i think that's probably the one of the. most important things. i've done in my life with spending time. on company values with a business. partner by. identifying gaps weaknesses and spending. time hearing. my failings from my best friend. so much of what was true um that i. demonstrated a lack of focus. um i'd been overly honest right so i. hadn't picked my moments he's like you. know i appreciate a very like. transparent person but you know but you.

know he's like you know you don't have. to like tell an investor to their face. that you don't buy into the business. that they've given you money for like. you could have a filter if things like. that then. this is this this is the behavior was. the most hurtful thing he said. i think the most the most hurtful thing. that he said was that. um you know he felt that i. had um not. not contributed 50 50 right. and that i had like an almost. irresponsible attitude.

towards what i was trying to get out of. the business compared to what he. needed to get out of the business and. that was a really meaningful start for. us to decide on the next business too. because what he meant by that was. joel is like a very intelligent person. so he is motivated. by challenge if something is hard to fix. right then he'll find a way to fix it. that is like he'll get up in the morning. for that i won't. um i'm motivated by making an impact and. feeling like i'm having a difference and. telling a story.

and impacting people and then telling me. that you know that made them feel this. way that is like all emotion for me. right. here's pure like logic and challenge so. by me. you know constantly discrediting the. work that we were doing by saying things. like that right by. being too open and honest about my. purpose and not putting on the filter i. was. literally without care or remorse. making fracturing yeah fracturing what. he believes in and his ability to. succeed and his ability to tell his own. story about the hard work he put. in and i think all of those things were.

true i'd say that it was. 60 40 if i was being brutal to myself 70. 30 like. you know the success of our last company. on him and to be honest like a lot of. the failure was related to me and i. personally don't regret any of it and i. really don't believe he does either. but being able to say this stuff to each. other with a. letter to all out that then also gave me. the confidence to say like joel came up. with like two or three business ideas. before. like heights and we were like figuring. out what we want to do i was just like. no mate i'm going to do the same thing. again i don't care about that thing. yeah but it's really exciting i'm like.

it's not to me right. no one is going to have their health or. mental health impacted that i feel like. that's my space that's where i want to. be. so really really enabled us to just you. know. look at my mistakes of the past and my. character and say if you want to work. with me. you know that i'm going to have to work. on something i feel purposeful about. that otherwise this is non-negotiable. for me otherwise we'll repeat history. and you've got another partner in your. life which is your. uh your wife um when did you get married. what age.

uh well two years ago i got married two. and a half years ago when did you meet. her. ah well uh do you know the story at all. no i don't know okay fine fine so. technically speaking i met her. at 18 on the khosan road for one night. uh but i didn't sleep with her. uh in thailand okay um in bangkok i. didn't sleep with her but. i tried to chat her up and stuff and it. was a straight up no right um so she's. she was best friends with my business. partner joel's. sure best mate a cousin sorry so anyway. the point being. um that's how we met her originally and. i'd like you know sent some very awkward.

facebook wall messages when that was a. thing like you know trying to chat. over the years it was always annoying um. and then at like. 30 or 31 like on my birthday um. joel basically reintroduced us and i was. like i'm having a party why don't you. just come etc. and she's older than me right she's two. years older than me so i was a bit like. you're 32 i'm 30. you're a bit too old. to pick right now your mates are married. i literally gave her all the banter i. was like your mates are married you're. running out of options i'm still. available. you know let's do it you're not going to. do any of that yeah.

she found it hilarious anyway she did. she did um come join me at drinks and. like the rest is history and actually. our relationship's been super. interesting because. we spent the first year um not. monogamous. um we spent the first year openly so we. spent the first year. openly communicating that we'll sleep. with other people but they were all like. more like one night stands. whereas we were like coming back to each. other which was interesting because. she's just like. hilarious really good fun really funny. and so. i enjoy hanging out with her but it's.

very clear like you're not my girlfriend. and she was like great i'm not your. boyfriend no problem we did that for a. whole year. why were you saying that why were you. not um yeah because i like loads of. reasons like one is like i'd come out of. a horrible relationship the last time. where i. i wasn't treated particularly nicely and. i just didn't didn't make me want to get. married. for sure um and i told my mom and her. that i wouldn't get married. incidentally um so i was like i don't. believe in marriage and i don't really. believe in monogamy. and like those are my beliefs i told you. about this book sex at dawn i highly. recommend you read it.

so i had been telling myself the story. that this wasn't going to happen so you. were rejecting her. kind of in a way and protecting myself. absolutely um. and you know i think that was mutual for. whatever reason for for a year. and actually after a year you know we. had that awkward conversation i almost. like where she actually you know said. like what are we gonna do like this is. getting like a bit silly now. you know i'm getting on i'm like 75 now. i need to get married. um and um and so i said you know i. almost said no. they there and then i said let me sleep. on there and i was about to say no but.

then all my friends were basically like. you know she's literally wicked like why. on earth would you do that to yourself. like what have you got to lose. and from that point of saying yes and. being in a relationship with her. i proposed to her the like it's six. months later and we got married a year. later so it was actually a really short. relationship. you're on meeting to marriage you you. met when you're 33 now yeah you met her. at 30. yeah. so you proposed when you were 31 yep and. okay so you've been together for two. years now yeah and. so i always find it super fascinating.

when i meet an entrepreneur that's super. busy and you know in love with their. business and their ideas and and is a. workaholic on. to some degree how they manage to keep. their relationship balanced because. i haven't figured it out yet yeah and i. i take the faces that i've gone through. different sort of levels of immaturity. in my life so. the first phase was um meeting great. people. meeting a great girl and thinking to. myself you need to wrap your life around. me. i'm not going to change a thing about.

myself i'm the most important thing in. the world the world. revolves around me you're welcome to. join the orbit. but i'm not going to change at all. didn't go well. unsurprisingly and then like trying to. find a little bit of um compromise. somewhere in. me um but still being ruthlessly. apologetic didn't go well. um and now i'm at a place where i'm. currently single completely single. and i need the answers i i'm less. i don't want to be one of these [ __ ]. [ __ ] narcissists that i just read.

about one in the newspaper. i won't say any names martin sorrell um. and. what i've what i read about people i. think it was his ex-wife that described. him. was very very similar to the behavior. that i'm exhibiting which is this kind. of self-centeredness. that excludes everybody but ultimately. will run the risk of actually being. self-harm when i make myself lonely and. miserable. um because i don't appreciate the value. of a relationship so i want you to help. me with the answer. well let me tell you i told myself the.

narrative. that being in a relationship i don't. have time to be in a relationship right. um that's my narrative um. being married and all of these things. will close opportunities down to me. and my life will be worse for it um and. that's fine. those are stories and like everything. you know we convince ourselves of all. sorts of stories. and i do believe in you know finding. um not just the one but ones. i really don't believe that there's one. person for you in the world i believe.

there's many. and i think having a spiritual. connection with others and you know for. some people like a sexual connection. with multiple partners i think that this. stuff is. totally acceptable a b completely. biological. like biologically scientifically more. normal for us. than monogamy which is essentially. because of christianity in the world. and and frankly you know even though. it's not what i do with my wife. currently we've had conversations about. you know in.

five years or in ten years right if we. weren't sleeping together because we. weren't finding ourselves like you know. sexually attractive or whatever at that. point you know. would we consider having the. conversation like opening up our. relationships. huh can i ask you that question yeah. yeah i'm not answering it almost now. which is like yes we would. we would do that and would you be. comfortable with her sleeping with other. men. that's very different question because. uh right now no. future me maybe um. logically right logically if i took.

emotion out of it. absolutely because if i didn't want to. at that point. sleep with my wife it would not be fair. to deprive her of sex because of how i. was feeling. and so i think having a maturity towards. your relationships and to all. relationships. is so important and a lot of. you know what really upsets me like so. many people get divorced. um one of the most common reasons people. get divorced is because they cheat. and you can avoid that by having a. conversation like i still love you.

and i still think everything i already. always did think about you. but for whatever reason the sexual. attraction has gone and either we are. going to work on that together. or we should explore other options and. like everything in life steve. the most uncomfortable conversations are. the ones you need to have. so i think a really smart way and i. would say this because you know i'm. doing it. but i think a smart way to approach your. relationship is like you approach your. business. so you set out a vision for your.

relationship. and you say this is what we want to be. and where we want to be in 50 years. what does that look like um you know. recently. i did this with my wife we were in. portugal we were with some friends. i told you i was working in portugal for. a month during lockdown um. we were staying in like a villa with. some friends and like we'd kind of been. okay in lockdown but like now she's. around other people she's being a cervix. snappy like. kind of [ __ ] we were just getting on. each other's nerves and i went for like. a long walk on the coast with her. and i was just like where's this coming. from like five wise right why are you.

doing that why are you doing that but. why are you doing that right. and we got kind of got to the crux of. the issue um. you know these are things that i'm. annoying about and what i do that. irritate her and obviously like these. are things you do and it's like okay. let's take a break from like. right now the things that are annoying. us about each other. let's flip the script in 50 years what. are the things that we're going to be. saying. doing and believing about why we love. each other what does that look like. so like literally let's imagine in the. future how we are and work back from.

there. so objective right a long happy and. fulfilling marriage. so you know you might be familiar with. okrs so objectives and key results. we implement them at heights as a. startup but also melissa she's the. um director of operations for europe. middle east and africa for vice. and she put okrs into vice so. we're both fan of the system right and. the system is literally this is the. objective you're trying to get to these. are some. measurable key results that would have. to happen for us to achieve the. objective. so we decided to try and apply this.

framework to our marriage. right what is the objective a long. sustainable happy and fulfilling. marriage. what are the key results that get us. there well we broke them down into mind. body and soul. right and from there you get to cascade. down these key results right so. they start to say a little bit like okay. so mind for me meditation is really. important for her. you know she doesn't really want to do. it but like from a compromise point of. view because she knows that i believe in. it and stuff she'll do it with me. similarly you know from a mind point of. view she wants to be heard. right so how about um you know.

we will ask each other how our days are. but systematically as a habit. right we'll build it as a habit another. one was you know we'll teach you some. each other something new every day so. we're always growing. these kinds of things literally became. a habit tracker list that we fill in in. our journal every single night. did i teach melissa something new today. did i. um ask her how her day was did we have. sex. were we intimate right were we cuddling. and you know spending time did i have.

personal space because really important. to have space away from your partner. these literally become habit trackers. that if you think about it really. methodically. you know did we exercise for 30 minutes. a day these things. if you do them you know the compound. gains of the results you get in a. marriage if we're literally doing these. things together. if i'm asking how her day is and i'm. listening if i'm. spending time like learning something. new to teach her because i want to and. she'll reciprocate the same. it will literally create these moments.

where we're not in our work. and we're not doing other things we're. doing this with each other and they. don't have to take very long. but they are like things that we've. taken personal responsibility for. to achieve it's it's people some people. a certain type of person will listen to. that and they'll think to themselves. how robotic how robotic and you know i. had the same conversation with. near il who came on this podcast yeah. and he's the king of this stuff right. yeah and he talked about how he. literally schedules time to be with his. wife and to. you know to see the kids and to play. with the kids and a certain type of.

person listening will think well that. takes the. specialness and the magic and the. spontaneity out of just like living and. being you know. free to go in whatever direction and it. also. when you listen to that you that you. start to think about how. us as humans have over. this is potentially a thought over. organized and over routine and really. over thought every facet of our life and. one of the things that i. have a sometimes a bit of a visceral bad.

reaction to. is like and you would have heard about. all this stuff that you know the 10. habits of highly successful. entrepreneurs you got to get out of bed. drink the green tea do the yoga write in. your diary do 10 star jumps then. call your mum until you love her and and. it gets to the point that it's one of. mine to be fair. yeah every day if you listen to all of. this stuff. your day would literally be completely. unconscious it would be what's the next. thing in my list of how to be a good. human. and so how do you kind of contend that. rigidness.

with creating space for lack of. rigidness and just [ __ ]. seeing where the wind takes you is a. great question in my experience so far. this particular bit of rigidness has. created more space not less space for me. interesting. um and the reason is because if you. think about. the opposite of this right so if you. don't do some of this stuff if you don't. i mean there's so many examples that are. like filling my head right now so. if i don't ask my wife how her day is. regularly if i don't exercise regularly.

if i don't you know meditate every day. this is me personally right. okay what are the outcomes of that my. wife is not going to feel listened to we. might end up in an argument how much. not how much time does the argument take. up how much mental energy after the. argument's over. is going to distract me from all the. other things i could do that day right. the things i wish i hadn't said. like all of the things right call that. day a write-off maybe a couple of days. right that takes up loads of time. if i don't meditate every single day i. have a very loud mind i'm much slower at. making decisions in general right so it.

is actually taking up more time to not. build that habit in for myself but don't. go for my daily walk. personally a i'm not making time to read. listen and learn so therefore my. personal growth as a human being is. slowing down because i really believe. that. you know the way that i can build a. better life for myself. is funneling wisdom into myself choosing. what i. read and choosing who i listen to and. choosing what i believe to an extent. right. i love reading counter views to stuff. like i'm a lefty i love.

i follow loads of conservatives and. right-wing republicans because it's. healthy for me but i'm choosing to. funnel stuff. into my life so again by not doing that. i could be more aimless and more free. and i wouldn't necessarily be following. the path to making better decisions as a. human being which also speeds things up. if i don't call my mom every day she. will call me up and ask me why i don't. love her which will make me feel like. [ __ ]. for three days so i actually find that. this stuff in. in my you know again not exercising you. know you don't have to ritualize half an.

hour five days a week like i have in my. diary. right but if i don't i actually start to. feel. achy i start judging myself you think. about these things like actually they. create time they don't take away. um in my experience and that's exactly. what nier said which is that. you know he's he's planning his time so. that he has more time to do the things. intentionally that he wants to do i my. last question on the relationship point. is about bringing your problems home. and how you've kind of because this is.

one of the big problems i have as well. is. along with the like selfishness around. my business being the most important. thing sometimes. is how do you. not bring your problems home but then. also like. not make her feel lonely when she sat. right next to you. by being off with the fairies and you. know i was reading. um elon's book the book written about. elon musk and it talked about how he. would you know come home and be. you know a little bit of a recluse even. though everyone's around him and he's in. his head and he's just focused on his.

problems his life he's working. incredibly hard to the point he's. sleeping on the floor how have you. managed to find the. balance in the relationship um is it. just the. okay ours is there does she unders does. she get it yeah. i think i'm lucky like a she gets her. and b she enjoys her personal space. and she's super busy as well and she's. super busy as well right yeah exactly. and we have you know she's got scale up. she's running a big company like she. only reports the ceo so she's got a lot. of responsibility. does sometimes it go in the opposite. direction as well where you're not.

getting enough out of her in terms of. attention no i think we're both really. lucky like we both like our own company. and we both like each other's company so. you know you can kind of be happy either. way. if you're lucky enough to learn what you. like. and how to be with yourself which takes. quite a lot of learning a lot of us are. very dependent on other people. um and if i was still completely. dependent on my wife's attention and my. wife. like in general then i might be like. that but i've come to learn. you know how to listen to myself how to. make time for myself. how to spend time enjoying being on my.

own as well. and i think that's a really important. skill to learn because otherwise i think. the answer would be true. and i think you know she's got the same. which is you know. i'll listen to podcasts about. performance and habits and stuff and. she'll listen to case file. on repeat oh my god is she a case. firefighter oh man if i hear that. australian pricks. absolutely one more time oh my god i've. listened to every episode. there's a uk one called they walk. amongst her i'm obsessed with true crime. yeah so. is she so obsessed well listen it. doesn't work out yeah exactly.

exactly yeah yeah she makes me watch. true crime stuff on netflix and it. freaks me out. i have this really bad habit of because. i can't sleep without listening to. something. yeah so i'll be it'll be 2 a.m in the. morning just got in bed with my partner. or whoever i'm with. and i'll say do you mind if i just put. on a. a murder podcast yeah about like a. serial rapist yeah. and then like every single i keep asking. the question but the answer is always. saying. steve babe it's 2 a.m i don't want to. listen to. a story about a serial rapist right now.

while i'm closing my eyes in the dark. [ __ ] so i i get my phone or my airpod. and i put it in one ear where they can't. hear it. and that's how i fall asleep yeah so. she's exactly the same and she like. she you know we actually i mean it's. i find it so interesting you know she. will make me watch these things on. netflix. because she's like but it's so. interesting right but actually they. really they actually quite damaged my. mental health because. you know you see things like you know. but that husband loved that wife so much. like why does he end up killing those. two daughters and his wife oh you're. talking about america.

yeah the most recent one but like. there's you know all of them you know at. the end of the day like. why someone goes from you know lovely. and. humane and kind and wonderful and all. the things i like to believe about. people in the world. to that terrifies me really so it has it. has. and this almost what you've just said. then sent my mind back to the start of. this conversation about. religion and belief and purpose and and. what you know before when i was holding. they're usually religious even more. terrifying yeah yeah but this. the reason i find it so fascinating is. because it gets to the truth in human.

beings which is something that i know. we're both deeply interested in. which is like finding the true nature of. humans and in the example we've talked. about there in america murderer that by. the way because i'm such a nut i'd read. that story i'd watched documentaries on. it three four five years ago. so seeing on netflix and their depiction. of it was fascinating but there you have. just the perfect. perfect example of how um unboxable and. unpredictable. human nature can be when forces like. infidelity and love. and um a normal person the fact that a.

normal person can go from being this. lovely dad who was quite placid. to smothering his own children and an. affair. teaches you something valuable about the. nature of being human. and um and for me that is like awesome. that is awesome oh and and that's why i. think i'm so obsessed with those things. is they teach you. the lessons in a violent emotional. gripping way about the true nature of. being human yeah i mean she feels the. same way whereas i'm just like.

you know it just plays on my mind really. it plays my mind to the idea of like. well that could happen to me then. that's why because i'm like i'm so kind. loving. you know full of you know good energy. but so was that guy. in that example so was that guy so so is. every review of what that guy was like. from all of his friends and everything. else so. how can that happen to a person and this. is the fascinating thing which. for sure he met someone else clearly he. was he was he was in a marriage. which had lost its passion yeah a. loveless marriage he decided to stay.

probably for the sake of the kids he. decided comfort over a decision which he. probably should have. uh made a tough decision which he should. have made in the short term for the long. term good. and it caught up with him and for me. that's like isn't that life where you. suppress. making a short-term tough decision but. that comes back to exactly what i was. saying right which is. yeah that comes back to the relation no. it comes back to setting. a vision for your relationship and you. know having a plan. and talking about in advance right you. know if you're really smart you'll talk. in advance what happens if one of us.

cheats. what happens in this scenario right what. would happen if we fell out of love. and you know there's no point like you. know planning the perfect life if you. don't crisis plan the things that happen. to all human beings. and if you've got a great relationship. with your partner i think it's so. valuable to treat it like you would your. business which is. scenario planning spending some time. talking about what would we do in this. kind of crisis and how would we behave. because by doing that with my wife like. i you know we've got permission. to bring up that horrible conversation.

right like in theory that that would. never happen to me because if i. wanted to cheat on her i'd have the. conversation with her and i've got. permission to have that conversation. because we've talked about it. i thought you meant that like i want to. murder you tonight. conversation no i probably wouldn't tell. her it'd be a nice surprise. um but you know what i mean isn't like. you know there's permission in our. relationship to address the difficult. things. and that's why in some respects you know. i treat my marriage like i treat my. business which is. you know something that i deeply care.

about if it's successful. and everything that i put into my life. is about making these things successful. to the best of my ability. and what i've learned is doing those. things from a sense of. vision and clarity and communication and. values as well because you're talking. about transparency and you know. honesty and exactly i i am as a. when i started dating you know i was. like 18 years old whatever. i thought that i was looking for i had a. checklist if you said steve.

what's your type i'd be like okay the. brown hair the this that this they want. to look like this they want to talk like. this. and this list was almost like it was. endless right of like little specific. superficial things i was looking for in. a partner. and after a couple of you know bad. relationships and bad experiences and. maturity and self-awareness and. understanding myself. i got close i was like what are the. fundamentals what are the like the. unnegotiable things. that i can't be without and where i'm at. now and i kind of want to get your take. on this and see if. it resonates at all with you is i have. three things.

that are like fundamentals that i need. to fill so the first one. i've kind of defined as they need to be. intellectually stimulating to me which. you can say you know. being able to have a conversation being. able to um. yeah like release my mind or else i'll. almost i feel like i'll get a mental. um disorder if i can't release my. thoughts because you know we're very. similar people in terms of our cognition. the next for me is sexual attraction. i used to think it was like they they're. pretty they're hot but i realize that. sexual attraction is much different to.

be than being pretty in. the mind of the world and the third. thing is um. i would hope that they would make me a. better person. and you i'm that's intentionally broad. that could be a spiritual thing it could. be. helping me become a better ceo in my. business better at my podcast or. whatever. so those are my three things. intellectually stimulating. sexually attractive and they make me a. better person however you want to define. that. what are yours well i have to say. sexual attraction is such an important.

thing to me in general. but what i've learned is and you learn. this a lot the more you read about. relationships. that is actually something that wanes. for everyone. doesn't mean it will go and it doesn't. mean you won't be attracted to your wife. or your husband or anything like that. but it wanes and you as a human being. become less sexual the older you get. right that's just biology so. i've learned not to make that one of the. most important things on the basis of i. wouldn't say it's the most important.

thing. purely on the basis of um i'm more. likely to fall out of love with the. person that i'm with. if one like you just said. they don't intellectually challenge me. second one. again like you said like they have to. help me grow in some respect or. certainly be with me on the journey. because. in a you know in a lot of relationships. including my. marriage like i am the one forcing a lot. of the growth. but i'm like that and i can be quite. irritating to be around because like i.

just always want more growth more this. more that that book this podcast some. people just want to. chill out and that's good for me as well. right as in that is growth. being pushed back and being like exactly. dressed stop here. you know she's the one who's like you're. doing too much you've got to stop like. read this book i read an amazing book. called rest. by alex song yam ping i think his name. is um. brilliant book much better than why we. sleep and all the other ones that you. would read about this stuff. and really really helped me grow by. realizing.

recharging is such a humongous part. with that third point and like think. about it it was a it was one person i. was with. that would stop me working yeah and she. would make me realize the value of. everything else but work. so she'd be like let's go to this garden. which is something. steve would never usually choose to do. yeah but when she took me my life was. better. and so i think when people think growth. they think oh like clapping at the back. when you're. i'm like no take me out of my world and. show me something else that'll add value. to my life that i wouldn't ordinarily. pursue. and how much more productive you are as.

a person as well when you've got space. and time and you've had thoughts there's. a reason why. thoughts come to us in the shower or on. walks right it's because. you're literally scientifically speaking. your default mode network your dmn in. your brain is being activated by that. moment of rest. so you know it is neuroscientifically. true there's loads of studies on it but. it's hard in the moment when you're. people like us. to take the rest and so having like you. know a partner that's there that forces. it on you. as a culture like you know almost every.

single evening now i don't do any work. which is so different to me but like. last night we watched the mask. together right like we will watch. something like you know trashy fun. whatever but it's like. not work laptop down we're eating dinner. we're chilling out and it's like a rule. and you know i have to have a very good. reason to break that rule and it's made. me a happier healthier person but. you know without that guard rail i would. just carry on working. and you talked about the sexual point. there i want to say a very personal. story that i've never shared before. about why that made. my made my list and this is a dynamic.

list that's changing as i mature. i met a girl that was the other two so i. met a girl that was the most. intellectually stimulating person i've. ever met she was actually a model so. she's absolutely gorgeous. she's also like a just a genius and she. she challenges me with a. sense of like like she doesn't care who. i am or what i've done in my life or. what i've achieved. um and so that made me a better person. she was an absolute genius. and she was gorgeous went to have sex. with her after. you know two months of you know.

fumbling hot air balloons and all of. this stuff. i'm really hoping she isn't listening. but the whole point of this podcast is. to be honest so. and it just wasn't there the first time. ever in my life and i experienced. what i can only describe as a feeling of. like horror. um total disappointment not with her or. anything like that. but that that was the thing yeah and it. felt like such a pathetic thing to stand. in the way of someone that i thought was. perfect.

so and i got out of bed i tried again i. tried again i tried to get over a couple. of days and i realized that. it wasn't there and i got out of bed and. i remember a text my best friend i said. i could never see her again because this. is something that. i didn't realize is actually so. important to to a relationship even. though it sounds pathetic when you saw. they weren't good in bed but they were. perfect in every other way. it sounds pathetic but it was the truth. and that's what made my list. my other my other thing is sense of. humor. yeah so you know one of our company. values is have a sense of humility.

a sense of humor and humility because we. jam sort of too and in the same one but. i believe so strongly in that which is. work can be very serious life can be. very serious. um but finding moments to connect. and laugh i mean so good for. your brain but just so good for your. soul. um you know spending. every day with my wife in lockdown right. you know just us two etc etc like thank.

god we make each other laugh. you know like we we have we both have a. very similar very dark sense of humor. um you know one of our things is. actually um. my when we fought on our first date um i. brought up my dead dad. and how actually one of my favorite. things to do in like social situations. is to bring up my dead dad to make other. people feel awkward. um just like because it's like kind of. funny anyway she was like oh my god i do. that about my dad and it turns out that. her dad had died like a year after mine. or whatever. so we um as like our second date or.

something we decided to go out on. father's day. together without our fathers and. everyone else just had their dads around. we went to the hoxton hotel. and they came over they're like would. you like the father's day menu we're. like i know our dads are dead thanks. and just literally like found it the. funniest thing that only us two would. find so funny right because it's just so. uncomfortable for everyone else but. to ask that kind of like dark humor like. ways to connect and like weirdness that. other people. it's like you're connecting on your pain. as well because people.

[Music]. yeah and like how many of like you know. comedy greats are you know coming. suffering. yeah not just suffering but also coming. from huge places of insecurities as well. and. that's their platform to bring on so i. think those things all really match up. but. by 100 i think you know finding someone. who makes you laugh. and gets your quirks so so so important. because humans are weird um i think it's. lovely if you can be your fullest. weirdest self in front of other people.

are you happy yeah i was thinking about. this question. um the other day someone asked me two. answers to that. one yes i am happy like the the blunt. answer is yes i'm happy because. i'm fulfilled the good question isn't it. yeah but i know that's your body body. language. yeah because because because the. question that i asked back to this. person was. i am happy but why is happiness so. important. like why is that the question you want. to ask me like is it does it matter that. i am happy. is it binary yeah and is it binary but. like why does that matter to you and why.

does that matter to me. because i think a much better question. is am i contributing. um you know am i fulfilled. and am i contributing because if i'm. doing those things i'll be happy. and i know that to be true whereas for. me asking that happy is a bit like you. know. binary it's yeah and it's like straight. to the point and it's like there's. nothing really behind that it's. undefined as well. undefined and also like really depends. on what you're asking me that day i will. be like no today i'm not happy to. if you ask me if i'm contributing to. society and does that make.

fulfill me yeah and make me feel like. i'm living my purpose. it won't matter what i feel like today. are you fulfilled very but i have so. much more to do. i i one of the real fascinating things. that i've learned. um is and i again i've read about this. at length in my book. is how binary questions like that are. the cause of so much pain and no one. realizes it. that the cause of so much like. misunderstanding pain and. um and anxiety so like another great. example.

is if i asked you now if i said are you. in love. and immediately you have a bunch of. problems there first you've got to. define in love. no one's ever told you what that is. they've never shown you it no when you. were born they didn't say okay down if. you ever feel like this it's in love. you've got it from instagram and movies. so you over immediately have to overcome. that. and then you have to try and understand. if what you're feeling for this person. fits into that box. and and i think one of it's so crazy. that. especially from what i do on instagram. and putting myself out there tons of. people send me their problems.

and usually it's because they they're. trying to fit into a binary box. and they don't even realize that like. steve i'm not sure if this is. my passion i'm like that is a super. binary thing it either because. have you found your passion that that. presumes a yes or no answer. whereas if you say you're like are you. feeling fulfilled it's a much more. it's an answer that appreciates it's a. gradient and not just a gradient but a. gradient that different things. impact yeah so you know i mentioned. contribution like you know. there's many ways to contribute and you. know being outwardly successful or.

building a company or. you know you know having a high-flying. career you know. they don't tick that many boxes in terms. of contribution a lot of contribution. comes back to what you do. for society for what you do for your. family for what you do for people that. you care about you know. that stuff is a much broader. question and it's like a cup that's. never full. right so it's nice because it's got. different levels and you kind of know. deep down if you feel like you're living. your purpose and contributing to the. level that. would make you proud and you also know.

when you're not which is great because. again it's not bad that you're not it's. just like well i could actually improve. some stuff by giving it some focus. and i think that's why you've got to. continue to like question the question. as much as you try and answer the. question sometimes. are you scared of dying great. question um why is it a great question. great question because. um i don't believe in fear of death fear. of death. is literally um like illogical because. fear of death is what actually makes you. fear of life.

so if you're scared of dying then you. approach your life in a very different. way. and actually the greatest fear that we. should have is not living your life. in a true way so no i'm not at all. scared of dying. um it's also really worth saying that. like ever since doing ayahuasca like i. 100. convincingly believe in things like. reincarnation soul. spirits other planes all of the woo-woo. crap. that just like sounds completely bizarre. for me to think that i would ever say.

those words. it's not even is it from like a. scientific perspective you describe. incarnation. exactly that's why i believe in. reincarnation because i see it. everywhere around me. um so the reality is i'm not in the. slightest bit scared of death. um and i think that that's uh the. biggest blessing that i got from doing. ayahuasca was no fear of death. um because that's a potent powerful. feeling not feeling. like knowledge insight right that's. categorically so quick for me to answer. that question and no.

um it helped me deal with the you know. death of my father when my mum got. cancer it helped me come to terms with. what might happen. to not have her around as well this is. life. people die so you have to approach it. right you can't pretend that isn't going. to happen it's the only thing that's. guaranteed. so having a philosophical understanding. of what that means to you and then how. that impacts your life or maybe holds. you back. is a terrible thing so it's usually a. fear of death. that essentially limits our life in my. view.

i i feel the exact same and the. experience i described to you where i. lost my. faith in christianity at 18 was also the. exact moment where. i um because up until that point i. believe that there's heaven and. there's a heaven and hell and that was a. [ __ ] terrifying thing so for the next. two years i went on this search of what. the answers were got obsessed with. reading about atheist books and it was. actually richard dawkins that said. um you can you should really fall in. love with the beauty of. of the world and like the true nature of. nature he talks about being able to go. into a church.

and crying even as an atheist because of. the beauty and the wonder. but also on the point of death he's one. of the questions one of the things he. said was. a lot of people are scared of death. because it's the unknown and they and. when you're religious you think it's i'm. gonna burn. or i'm gonna be in this place with all. these good people that sound kind of. boring. but when you when i got to the point. where i was agnostic or atheist or. whatever you want to call it. he said like how did you feel a hundred. years ago was that i didn't. didn't feel anything were you scared. were you were you fearful no no because. i wasn't here and he said that's how.

you'll feel then. and then like that when i lost the the. this idea that i would burn or go to. or you know go to this other place and. be judged in some way it all became. about now and it was. as you described it was this liberating. feeling of then okay well this is it if. this is it then i. i you know everything is so much more. special this isn't an audition. this is the [ __ ] show and my life. completely changed and i. i i i i completely agree i i asked the. question. which is a strange thing to ask in like. what i don't know what you really want. to call this a business podcast. because it's so fundamental to me and.

because i think the fear of death is so. deeply illogical and as you say. imprisoning it's like. yeah so listen we've had we could talk. for hours and hours and hours. um what an amazing conversation. i'm so thankful for for you for coming. on and sharing your insights you know. it's interesting because the dan that. didn't want to do personal branding was. like oh well. you know i have a direct to consumer. product and what's my personal brand fit. in that but the most. convincing sales pitch for this product.

was in fact when you talked about. you it's not when you you know you know. what i mean yeah and i think that. i mean of course like you talking about. the struggles you've had and the. agenda and motivations that went into. creating. your product is the most convincing. thing yeah and that's again why your. personal brand and you building it and. even why it's having this conversation. is so. i think so incredibly important um i. always finish this podcast. asking one question which i'm sure. you've had before which is about the. dinner party we're at a nice table now. just imagine there was two. other seats at this table who would you. bring to the table and why.

your arms crossed again yeah sorry i'm. just getting into the serious mode like. thinking about this okay. um so. i think um i think to be honest. i'd want like an ancient philosopher. like i'd love like you know just be. so cool like marcus aurelius i would say. one big fan of meditations um you know. stoic philosophy. i read meditations um after my first. business fail someone bought it for me. um and i read it again every year it.

takes like an hour to read and it's just. such a great reminder of. you know yes the world is tough and yes. the world is [ __ ] but everything is what. you make of it and. really the world you're living in is all. it all exists inside your own mind. and once you understand that you can. control a lot of how you feel. so marcus aurelius would be one and i. would say the second. you know this is pathetic and i'm sorry. but you know dennis bergkamp is my. all-time hero. i'm laguna um and you know the man was a.

magician. and so classy and such a authentic and. great leader in so many ways. and iconic i feel though i hear huh. fearful. fearful oh yeah oh the opposite of jesus. he won't fly but he does walk on water. crazy when i heard that that he refused. to fly yeah yeah you're right yeah yeah. yeah totally correct yeah he's got a. bunch of uh interesting anxieties yes i. could ask him about that maybe. get marcus and well exactly and if i had. a third um if you were being generous. to be honest with you okay so yeah.

um oprah yeah why uh. literally just think she's phenomenal. yeah it felt stupid asking why. yeah i mean just in every way right as. in i just it's hard to pick a thing but. let's just say then because of personal. growth media brand. understanding wealth and leveraging your. wealth for. good and storytelling i mean i could. just go on like. you know her list is just ridiculous so. a hundred percent oprah. um and uh oh i don't know i feel like i. i feel like uh you know once the fourth.

seat it's literally sitting. sitting where he would be my french. bulldog because he started sprinting. around attacking uh. imaginary other french bulldog yeah. exactly pablo. um and then um i'd actually say my. fourth would be lewis hamilton. um because i think what he's achieved. even before literally breaking a record. like a couple of weeks ago. um is so awesome and i love i'm so proud. of the fact that he's british. i'm so proud of the fact like obviously.

even though i'm a white guy i'm so proud. of the fact of what he's doing to using. his platform to take a stance. actually being political with his. message when he knows he has such a big. platform which is a thing that a lot of. people choose not to do and choose to. back out of so. he's a man that stands for morals and. values secondly. um he's vegan so you know i like i think. it's interesting that he's chosen he's. gotten such a high performance. no fail like attitude but is like as a. plant-based person clearly. environmentally conscious even if he's. in f1 which is obviously debatable.

but um he's got these like clearly deep. rooted values about how he wants. uh the world to be and he is manifesting. and living them in being. basically the greatest racing driver. that's ever ever lived that's what he. will end up as because he just beat. schumacher's record. um and he seems like quite a nice bloke. just in general like i just like when i. see interviews of him. i just like what a relatable guy that. says you know he doesn't seem like a. knob superstar at all. so i would just love to the reason for.

him is i just love to talk to him about. mindset. and focus because when you think about. it that is. all you're doing in an f1 car yeah that. is the. in my opinion the most focused you can. be is driving formula one. i don't think there is any other i don't. think i don't think anything tops that. so i would love to know how you achieve. that kind of level of flow and focus. like week in week out nothing would be. more interesting so marcus. berkamp oprah and uh sounds like a. wicked dinner. yeah hamilton sounds amazing listen.

thank you so much for your time today. it's a pleasure to consider your friend. uh a mentor through the content you. produce in your podcast secret leaders. but also just an all-around good guy. and um you you're you have a a way of. being. honest and open which was not only. perfect for this podcast but it's so. tremendously valuable for people like me. for everybody listening and i want to. thank you for that as well because it's. not always. the the the easiest thing to do you know. people default to. massaging the ego or trying to get you. know press for. being positive and and untouchable and.

perfect and i think you've taken a. different route which is serving. a much needed uh positive service to. to the world so thank you for that as. well and pleasure yeah i'm sure. you will uh pick up this conversation. again soon thank you so much for. listening to this episode of the diary. of a ceo. listen if you're on the podcast store or. you're in spotify or you're listening to. it in some kind of app. do me a huge huge favor leave a review. and hit the subscribe button. if you're watching this on youtube right. now i need another favor i need you to.

hit the like button. and if you'd be so generous to leave a. comment one person that does this. will be joining me in march at the diary. of a ceo live show. in manchester and you'll be coming. backstage and meeting me and the other. members of our team. thank you so much for listening and i'll. see you again next monday. [Music].