No.1 Habit & Procrastination Expert: We've Got ADHD Wrong! Break Any Habit & Never Be Distracted!

What's your thoughts on ADHD? Oof, this is a big topic and I'll. probably get myself in trouble here, but. there's something fishy going on. We can. get to that. Nir Eyal, one of the. world's leading experts in. procrastination. named the prophet of habit forming. talking about how to keep focused, how. to set the right goals. This is a. must-listen. Avoiding distraction is the key to not. living with regret. 90% of the time that. we get distracted, it's not because of. what's happening outside of us, it's. because of what's happening inside of. us. If you can't sit with a friend. without looking at your phone every 3.

minutes, it's not the phone. It's your. inability to deal with the discomfort of. silence or boredom. All human behavior. is driven by a desire to escape. discomfort. It's not hard to do something you enjoy, but it's how do I do the stuff that I. really don't feel like doing it? I found this technique. Thousands of. studies have shown this to be very. effective. If you don't master that, everything else becomes much more. difficult if not impossible. So, the. first step is. The number of people being diagnosed. with ADHD has significantly risen. ADHD. is a very real thing that can be. debilitating for people that suffer with. it. ADHD is real, but you know, I have a lot.

of concerns. 10% of children in the. United States are diagnosed with ADHD, in Europe it's 1%. That's a big red. flag. Training a generation to believe. that solutions come in pill bottles. We. do not wait how dangerous those pills. can be. They have consequences. The whole chemical imbalance theory, no. psychiatrist will tell you that's true. Scientifically false. Skills before. pills. And what I hate about a lot of. people in the ADHD community, they feel. like it's an identity and that is so. dangerous. We need to look at ADHD as. Would you like to go for dinner with me.

and my guests here on the Diary of a. CEO? We are holding dinner parties all. around the world over the coming months. and our subscribers on this YouTube. channel are invited. We're inviting 20. subscribers to every dinner. So, if. you'd like to come for dinner with me. and my guests here on the Diary of a. CEO, I have a favor to ask you. All. you've got to do is hit the subscribe. button and I hope to see you at dinner. somewhere around the world very soon.

Nir, it is very good to see you again because. I have to admit you've changed my life, but you also changed my father's life. You're the reason my father quit. smoking. I've told this story maybe once. or twice before, but once upon a time I. came home from for Christmas and I left. your first book, Hooked, in his bathroom. He picked that book up. once I'd left, read it, understood habit. loops and from that moment he took steps. which led led him to quit smoking. So, I. have to say thank you, but also you've.

been on this podcast once before. a long, long time ago when not many. people were listening and from that. conversation there were small nuggets. which have stayed with me every day. since. My first question to you, Nir, for people that have just clicked onto. this podcast and are thinking about. whether to listen or not, can you tell me. who should listen, why they should listen, and yeah, what value they're going to. gain from listening to the conversation. we're about to have? Yeah, so first of. all, thank you for having me. It's an. honor to be back for episode I think the.

reason to listen is because regret. sucks. Having regret in your life is awful. And. so, what I want to minimize with the. work I do and frankly, I write for. myself more than anyone else, I try and. solve my own problems, is I don't want. to look back on my life with regret. Not. for a day, not for a month, not for a a. year, not for a lifetime, certainly. And. so, avoiding distraction. is the key to not living with regret.

Because we all basically know what to. do, right? We know we should exercise. We know we should eat right. We know we. should spend quality time with our. family. We know we should do the hard. work that we have to do to move our. careers forward. But many times we don't do it even. though we know what to do. And if you. don't know what to do, Google it. It's. all out there, right? So, the problem is. not that we don't know what to do. The. problem is we keep getting in our own. way. And so, it's really about becoming. indistractable. This is how we live the kind of lives we. deserve. You described becoming indistractable on.

Twitter as the single most important. skill that anybody in the 21st century. can adopt and learn. Yeah, and I think it's the macro skill, right? Because there's no facet of your. life that is not affected by your. ability to control your attention. So, whether it's learning a new skill, whether it's getting into relationships, whether it's business, whether it's. physical fitness, all of these things. depend on your ability to follow. through. And so, that's why I think it's the.

skill of the century that if you if you. don't master that skill, everything else. becomes much more difficult if not. impossible. But if you do, if you can. become indistractable, you know, I made. up the word indistractable. It's meant. to sound like indestructible. It's meant. to be a superpower. It's meant to be uh. a a a trait that we want in order to. achieve our dreams. And so, it's you. know, my goal was not to tell people. what to do, right? I'm not going to say. you need to exercise, you need to live. right, you need to do this, you need to. do that. That's not my goal at all. If. you want to play video games uh for your. waking hours, that's fine with me. What. I want to help people do is do the.

things that they themselves want to do. Whatever it is that you say you want to. do with your time and attention, that's. what I want to help you do. So, why. don't we do what we want to do? Because. you as you say, the information's all. out there. We have Google, we have all. of these books, we have podcasts like. this, but regardless of you know, we've. had loads of health podcasts in a row on. on this show where we've had the best. health experts from all around the world. and I'm sure there's people that have. listened to those episodes. have heard don't eat sugar, don't do. this, don't do this, do this, do this, do this. Right. But they're still at. home struggling now to turn that.

intention into behavior. What is. standing in our way? What's getting in. our way? Yeah, so I wish I could give. you a a one-sentence answer, but let me. back up and and kind of frame this a. bit. So, the best way to understand what. distraction is is to understand what. distraction is not. And to do that, we. have to start with what the where the. word comes from. So, the word. distraction comes from this Latin root. trahare, which means to pull. And uh if you notice that the the the. opposite of of distraction is not focus.

Many people say, "I don't want to be. distracted, I want to be focused." But. that's not the opposite of the word. The. opposite of distraction is traction. That both words end in the same six. letters, a c t i o n, that spells. action, reminding us that distraction is. not something that happens to us, it is. an action we ourselves take. So, we have. traction, we have distraction. Traction is any action that pulls us. towards what we say we're going to do. Things that move us closer to our. values, help us become the kind of. person we want to become. Those are acts.

of traction. The opposite of traction, distraction is any action that pulls us. away from what we plan to do, farther. from our goals, farther from becoming. the person we want to become. So, this is really important. This isn't. just semantics because I would argue. that any action that you do with intent, anything that is planned ahead, anything. that involves forethought is traction. So, there's a lot of talk today about. how, you know, social media is melting. our brains and video games are bad for. you. I I I don't I don't agree. I think. that anything that you plan to do with. your time and attention, as long as it's. done with intent, is fine. That becomes.

an act of traction as long as it's. planned for with intent. As Dorothy. Parker said, the time you plan to waste. is not wasted time. Now, just because. something is a work-related task doesn't. mean it's not a distraction. In fact, that's the worst kind of distraction. because these distractions trick you. into not even realizing you're getting. distracted. I'll I'll give you a perfect. example. For years, I would sit down at my desk, I would. take out my to-do list. By the way, we. can talk about later why to-do lists are. one of the worst things you can do for. your personal productivity. We can get. to that. I would sit down at my desk and.

I would say, "Okay, I've got that big. project that I need to work on right. now. Nothing's going to get in my way. I'm going to stay focused. Here I go, I'm going to get started.". But first, let me check some email, right? Let me just scroll that Slack. channel. Let me just do that one thing. on my to-do list, that easy task, just. to get started here, just to get the. rhythm going, right? I'm you know, it's. a work-related task. And what I didn't. realize that that is the most pernicious. form of distraction, the distraction. that you don't even realize is. happening. Because if it's not what you. said you were going to do in advance. within your time and attention, it is by. definition a distraction.

Right? So, what we tend to do is we. prioritize the easy work. We prioritize. the urgent work as opposed to the hard. and important work we have to do to move. our lives and careers forward. So, just. because it's a work-related task doesn't. mean it's a distraction. That's the most. awful type of distraction. It's not the. video games, it's not the social media, it's the distractions we don't even know. are distracting us from what we said we. would do with our time. So, now we've. got traction, we've got distraction. Now, the other two parts of the model. involve what we call triggers. Triggers. are these things that prompt us to. action. We have two kinds of triggers. External triggers are things that are. outside our environment. These are.

things that we tend to blame like cell. phones and uh our computers and all the. pings, dings, and rings in our life. But. studies find that those account for only. 10% of our distractions. Only 10% are. caused by these external triggers. So, what's the other 90%? 90% of the time that we get distracted, it's not because of what's happening. outside of us, it's because of what's. happening inside of us. These are called. internal triggers. Internal triggers are. these uncomfortable emotional states. that we seek to escape. And so, that's.

the first step to becoming. indistractable and answers your question. around why, by and large, even though. despite knowing what to do, we don't do. it, it's because all of these problems. are an emotion regulation problem. That. in fact, time management is pain. management. I would argue weight. management is pain management. Money. management is pain management. In fact, all human behavior, all human behavior. is about a desire to escape discomfort. And that answers your question around.

why don't we just do what we say we're. going to do? It's because we don't. realize that these are always. emotion regulation problems. So, that's the first step to becoming. indistractable, is mastering the. internal triggers. Then, the second. step, talked about traction earlier, making time for traction. The third. step, hacking back the external. triggers. And then finally, preventing. distraction with pacts. And so, that's. the that's the model, the these four. steps. And then of course, we can go in. as much depth as you like, but if you. understand these four fundamental steps, and this is what took me five years. writing this book, namely because I kept.

getting distracted, right? I was very. distractible myself, and I wrote the. book for me, as I mentioned earlier. Uh. but it was when I boiled down the the. the you know, hundreds of studies and. research, and you can see there's 35. pages of citations in the book. Uh it. wasn't until I I could kind of solidify. this model that I could make it. practical enough to change lives. It. certainly did mine. One of the things this podcast has. taught me from speaking to all these. people across multiple fields is that. sometimes we can feel like our body, our.

wiring is against us, especially as it. relates to health, right? So, you know, we know sugar is bad. So, why does our. brain send us these cravings to go and. eat sugar? And in the case of distractions and sort. of behavioral psychology, I know instinctively and intuitively. that. distractions, like hanging out on Tik. Tok for an hour, is bad. But my brain is doing it. What does that tell us about how we. should. go about adopting behavior change? Yeah,

so that's why it's it's really about. this holistic model. So, that's what. took me the most time to figure out was. what are the four mandatory components. of. living without regret, of of doing what. you say you're going to do. So, the. first step is mastering these internal. triggers, figuring out why you feel this. way, right? What is that underlying. sensation? So, if you're trying to avoid. that that chocolate bar, it might be. hunger. Or it might not be hunger, right? So, I. used to be clinically obese. And I'll tell you what, I did not eat uh. to excess because I was hungry.

I was eating to excess because I was. lonely. I was eating to excess because I. was bored. I was eating to excess. because I felt guilty about how much I. had just eaten. It wasn't just about the hunger, right? Very few people who are obese. are just hungry all the time. That's not. what's going on. It's because we're. eating our feelings. That's what's. happening. So, that's the first step. We. have to understand the deeper reason. How did you understand that? Um a a lot of work. A lot of uh figuring out stuff in my. life to to help me understand that. And.

I think actually that's where my. fascination with what I do today in. terms of, you know, the same exact. reason that we would overdo uh our use. of technology. It's. It's not the technology's fault, guys. I. hate to tell you this. I wish I could. blame Zuckerberg and Tik Tok, but these. are just tools, right? And then before. those, there were other tools. It was. they used to call our generation couch. potatoes. And before that, it was the. radio was the moral panic. And before. that, it was comic books. There's always. some moral panic or, "Oh, this is. melting our brains." Because we don't. want to face the facts that we are. looking for escape from.

these internal triggers. Right? Time management is pain. management. All human behavior is driven. by a desire to escape discomfort. So, when you realize that that, you know. what, I was just unable to deal with. these sensations in a in a healthful way. that moved me towards traction, I was. trying to escape them with distraction. It's not until you understand what. sensations you're trying to escape from. that you can deal with them. If you. can't sit around the table with a friend. without looking at your phone every 3. minutes, it's not the phone. It's your inability.

to deal with the discomfort of maybe. having silence or boredom or whatever. else is going on in your life. So, that. has to be the first step. It's not the. only step, but that's the first step. I'm really compelled by really. interested in how you figured out the. thing you were trying to escape from, because I think that's the starting. point, which is a very difficult. starting point for most people. Mhm. They can see the sort of compulsive. behavior that's maybe making them live. outside of their values or causing them. to excessively eat or excessively watch. porn or whatever it might be. But. diagnosing the root cause of that. is a difficult thing to do. Most of us.

don't know what we don't know, and. Yeah. Uh yeah. It It is and it isn't. It I. mean, I I'm not. You don't have to go to therapy. Not. that there's anything wrong with it. If. it's helpful, please do it. But that's. not a requirement. Something as simple. as, you know, so whenever I work, uh I. have on my desk, I have a a little. Post-it note and a pen handy. And. when I get distracted or when I even. feel the sense of distraction, just. noting down down that sensation, just. writing down what is it that I felt.

right before the distraction. So, I. write every day. And all I want to do. when I write, you know this, right? When. you write, all you want to do is go. Google something or do some research or. go check email for a quick sec or let me. just find that one thing that might be. And they're all distractions. They're. all taking you away from the core thing. you need to do, which you said you would. do, which is right. And so, if I can. just pause for a second and reflect on. what was that sensation that I was. feeling right before. It was boredom. It. was anxiety. It was fearfulness. It was. uncertainty.

Just writing it down is an incredible. first step towards gaining power over. that discomfort. Because then you can. start to identify it. And so, what I'll. do many times is just pause to reflect. on, wait a minute. What what what's. going on there, right? What what is that. sensation? Because then you can begin to. do what's called reframing the trigger. So, now when I feel the sensation of. wanting to get distracted, I say, "You. know what? What's going on here? Okay, I. I'm feeling this sensation. because I'm stressed. Why am I stressed? Because this is really important to me.

I want to get this right for my readers. and for myself.". And so, reframing it as not a negative, but something that happens uh not to me, but for me, that that sensation is a. sign that I can listen to. I think most. of us, we think when we feel this. discomfort, that's happening to us. Right? But it's not. It's happening for. us. It's a signal for us to listen to. Now, how we interpret it is up to us. And that's where the magic happens. If. you interpret it as something that is. harmful, is dangerous, that you need to. escape, right? You don't want to feel. that uncomfortable sensation, Mhm. you.

look for distraction. But what we find is that high performers. across every field, when you think about. the arts, when you think about sports, business, high performers, when they. feel those internal triggers, they. experience the same internal triggers. the rest of us do. They experience. loneliness and stress and anxiety just. like everyone else does. But they deal with it by using it as. rocket fuel to push them towards. traction. Whereas distractible people, as soon as they feel that discomfort, they try and escape it with distraction. That's the big difference.

That's one of the things that you said. to me when we when we spoke last time. that really has had a profound impact on. my life, specifically around the area of. procrastination. Mhm. You said about that, which is like. taking a moment to pause and ask. yourself what the which psychological. discomfort you're trying to escape from. in the moment. And then that second. step. So, you Now I'm clear. I'm trying. not to do this. book because this particular chapter, I. just don't feel that competent or I. don't feel like I've researched it. It's. making my brain feel a bit hot thinking. about it. I reframe it and go, "Okay, so.

I've I've understood it now." Then what. do I do? Yeah. So, step one is. Understand it. Is is Yeah, is is under master those. internal triggers. Yeah. Or they become your master. That's. step number one. There's a bunch of. techniques. We're just covering the. surface. There's over a dozen different. techniques that you can use to help you. master those internal triggers. Now, the. second step is to make time for. traction. Okay. So, when you have those doubts, one of these techniques that is is. really life-changing is scheduling time. for worry.

Scheduling time for worry. That what happens is in the moment, we. feel these feelings, we think these. thoughts. And a distractible person will say, "Well, I I I got to deal with that. sensation right now. I have to I have to. work through whatever it is that I'm. feeling right now." And they stop. everything to do that. And that's not. the right method. The right method is to. write down that sensation and get back. to the task at hand as quickly as. possible using these these four. strategies. Then later on, right? Now that you've. written down what that sensation is,

you're going to make time in your. calendar. to think about that sensation. So, you start processing it. Using the book example, I've hit chapter. 12 and I just I'm struggling with this. chapter. Right. So, So, you step number. one, you have these tools. Like let me. Maybe I can digress for a second. I'll. tell you my favorite tool for mastering. internal triggers. It's called the. 10-minute rule. This comes from. acceptance and commitment therapy. And. the 10-minute rule says that you can. give in to any distraction, any. distraction. Maybe it's smoking that. cigarette if you're trying to quit.

Maybe it's eating that piece of. chocolate cake if you're on a diet. Maybe it's uh checking social media. Whatever it is. Whatever distraction, you can give in to that distraction, but not right now. You can give in in 10. minutes. Don't misunderstand, not for 10. minutes. Sometimes people get it wrong. It's in 10 minutes. Okay? So, what does. that do? What that does is we talked. about psychological reactants earlier, and you asked, "How do you What What do. you do about psychological reactants?". You're allowing yourself to acknowledge. that you are in control. Okay? You. decide. What many people do is they have.

strict abs- abstinence, right? Strict. abstinence says, "No, I will not do it, right? I won't eat sugar. I I I won't. get distracted. I will do this. I will. do that." As opposed to saying, "Hey, I'm an adult. I can do whatever I want. I choose not to go off track for the. next 10 minutes." That's it. In 10. minutes, I can give in to whatever I. want. So, now I'm in control. You know, the the whole just say no technique. turns out makes you ruminate and think. about and have more discomfort around. the thing you want, increasing these internal triggers, and.

that actually is what makes you give in. to that distraction. We know that with. smoking, actually, it's very. interesting. We're finding that nicotine. is less and less part of the the reason. people get addicted to cigarettes. It's. more about the rumination around I I I I. I want to smoke, but I can't. I want to. smoke, but I shouldn't. I want to smoke. I want to smoke. I want to smoke. Fine. I'll finally smoke. Now I get relief. How do we know this? If you ask smokers, why do they smoke? The number one reason, it's relaxing. That makes no sense. Nicotine is a. stimulant. Makes no sense, right? Why would it be. relaxing? It's relaxing because finally.

I can stop telling myself I don't have. to do it anymore. I don't have to fight. with myself anymore. And that eases that. psychological reactance. Ha, I can. finally give in. So, when you use this 10-minute rule and. say, "Okay, I can give in to that. distraction in 10 minutes from now,". what you're doing is you're establishing. agency. Right? Now you're in control. And we can. do anything for 10 minutes. And if 10. minutes feels like too long, try the. 5-minute rule. The idea is that you're. building that ability over time. So, the. 10-minute rule becomes the 12-minute. rule becomes the 15-minute rule. And.

you're learning, "Wait a minute, I can. actually delay gratification." Remember, all these problems of distraction are an. impulse control issue. So, when you. teach yourself, "Wait a minute. Okay, I. can delay for 5 10 minutes. That's no. big deal." You're proving to yourself, "Hey, I'm not addicted to these things. I'm not powerless. My brain isn't being. hijacked. I do have control as long as I. use these practices." Right? So, the. 10-minute rule is is a very very. effective technique. Now, when you we. were talking about budgeting that time. later on. Okay, so when you use those. techniques, that's step number one. By. the way, there's a.

dozen other techniques that you can use. The 10-minute rule is just one of them. Later on in the day, you're going to put. time in your schedule to come back to. that feeling. Right? I want you to. literally put time in your calendar. called worry time. And that's where you're going to look. back at that posted note and worry about. all the things that you thought would. that that you thought you would normally. have to get through throughout your day. Does that make sense? So, so I used to. do this all the time. I would say, "Oh, I've got this worry. I need to I need to. take care of that worry right now.". And that would derail me. As opposed to.

when I started writing down and planning. for that worry time, you know what. happened? Nine out of 10 of those worries and. emotions and fears and thoughts. melted away. Like when I when I had a few minutes to. think about them, I you know what? Actually, that that. wasn't that important. That didn't have. to get done. That wasn't really a. problem. Right? And the one out of 10. that really was an issue that I did need. to think about, okay, now I have time to. actually think about it. So, one, it. compartmentalizes that time, so it. doesn't pull you away, and it lets your.

brain relax. Second thing it does is. that it lets your brain say, "Okay, I. don't have to worry about this problem. right now. I can think about it later.". We see this, by the way, with with. children. You know, many parents there's. a whole section in the book. Indistractable on how to raise. indistractable kids. And so, many. parents ask me about, you know, what. what do I do with social media and this. and that. And I I part of my advice is schedule. time for your kids to play video games. Put it in their daily schedule. Like sit. down with them and make a schedule for. the day and have that time. Because then. they don't have to worry about all day,

"When do I get to play Fortnite? When do. I get to, you know, hang out with my. friends online?" It's in their schedule. It's coming. They don't have to think. about it all day long. And so, it's the. same with any of these potential. distractions. We want to. compartmentalize these times when we can. think about them later in the day and. work on them. So, what happens then? So, I've. compartmentalized it. I'm writing my. book. I'm on chapter 12. I've got a. bunch of worries popping. I'm scheduling. that for later. Um and I'm going to. crack on with the book. Right. Um that's what I say to myself. That's section two of your four-step. process, right? Right. Making time for distraction. So, you're going to finish that time box. Yeah. Right? So, if you said, "I'm going.

to work on this book for 30 minutes.". Finish the time box. Even if you're just. sitting there staring into space, right? Steven Pressfield talks about this in. the the uh The War of Art. It's about. putting your butt in the chair. That's. what makes a professional. Is you do the. work. Right? And what you find is it's. very boring for a few seconds. I have. This I have This happens every time I. sit down to write. There's that pause of, "You know what? Maybe I'm just not feeling it. Maybe I. should just stop for a little bit.". Right? Do you feel that? All the time. All the time, right? If. you just sit there, if you just stick.

with it, even if it's just putting your. hands on the keyboard and just hanging. out for a few seconds, it always comes back. Right? Maybe a. minute or two or 20 later, it'll come. back. And if it doesn't, that's fine. Just finish that time box. That's the. most important thing. Step three? So, step three is hacking. back the external triggers. So, this is. where we do talk about the usual. suspects, the pings, the dings, the. rings. Uh that's where we, you know, very. systematically go through what a lot of. people complain about, but it's really. only 10% the problem. Because 90% of our. distractions begin from within. But.

people, you know, do have these issues. You know, we talk about the the phone, the computer. What turns out to be a. much bigger problem. is not the technology, it's what the. technology is attached to. Right? So, what if it's your boss that's. the distraction? What if it's your kids. that are distraction? We love them to. death, right? Our kids are great. But. they can be a huge source of. distraction. Meetings. Oh my god, how. many stupid meetings do we have to. attend that are nothing but a. distraction. Especially now that Zoom. makes it accessible so that wherever you. are, you know, people can can call.

meetings. Those are huge distractions. Of course, uh Slack channels and that's. what we get into more in the book in. terms of, "Okay, systematically, what do. you do about these various external. triggers?". What would you do about that? And what's. your general view? Let's take this into. the professional context now. You know. the design of like most offices, the. kind of open-plan format where everybody. can just walk over to someone else and. say, "Oh, Jenny, if you've got a minute, could you just take a look at this?". Yeah. Yeah. Um the same applies in, you know, the. healthcare field and other sort of. scientific.

fields where you're working around a lot. of people who can just tap you on the. shoulder and say, "Could you just take a. look at this?". Yeah. Can you pass me the book? Yeah. So, every copy of the book. comes with. Oh, did you tear it out already? Maybe. Oh. You've had this for a while. So, you. tore it out already. So, usually right. here in the back, there is a piece of. card stock that um you put I it's this. red. piece of card stock that you fold into. thirds and you put on your computer. monitor. And it tells your colleagues,

"I am indistractable. Please come back. later.". And that screen sign is is a wonderful. way, you know, you put it on your. computer monitor if you work in an open. floor plan office, that says, "Hey, I. just need to be indistractable for a. little bit." Right? People say, "Well, why don't I just put on headphones?". Well, people think you're listening to. uh an episode on YouTube or something. They don't realize that that that you're. working with intent. So, that's one easy. way to do it. Another thing you can do. is to start managing your manager. And. this is something that that all of us. can start doing if we have, you know,

bosses who I I hear this all the time. They say, "Look, I'm indistractable. I. followed all your techniques, but my. boss keeps interrupting me. What do I. do?". So, one of the things you can do, one of. the benefits of of step two there where. you can uh make time for traction is. when you have a time box calendar, you have an artifact. You have something. that you can physically print out and. show to other people. So, what I want folks to do when they. say, "Look, my my boss isn't leaving me. alone when I need to work with that. distraction. What do I do?" What you. want to do is you want to sit down with. your boss for 10 15 minutes. You say, "Boss, hey, can we sit down for 15.

minutes on on Monday morning? I want to. ask you something." You sit down with. them and you show them your time box. calendar. You take out the calendar for. your working hours and you say, "Hey, boss, okay. Here's what I'm doing this. week. See, here's my time for this. meeting. Here's my time for email. Here's my focused work time. Here's what. I'm doing this week. Here's the the. various projects you asked me to work. on. Now, you see this other piece of. paper here? This is where I wrote down. all the things that you asked me to do. that I'm having trouble fitting into my. schedule.". And what you're doing with this process. is you're avoiding one of the worst.

pieces of productivity advice that we. hear all the time, which is, "If you. want to be more productive, you have to. learn how to say no.". That is the kind of advice that only a. tenured professor would tell you. That. is terrible advice. You're going to tell. the person who pays your bills, "No.". You're going to get fired. That's awful. advice. Instead of saying no, what you. want to do is to engage your boss in. helping you do the one thing that they. absolutely have to do as a manager, which is prioritize. So, you ask them, "How can I make sure that I do what you.

asked me to do based on my schedule for. the week?" And here's what they're going. to do. They're going to look at that and. say, "You know what? That meeting, that's actually not that important. But. that this project over here that you put. on the piece of paper, that's actually. super important. Can you swap those. out?" Mhm. And so, by doing that, you're. doing what's called schedule syncing. You're making sure that their priorities. are also reflected in your schedule. And. bosses will worship the ground you walk. on. They love this. Because every boss. out there, every manager, we're. wondering kind of what our people are. doing, right? That's what they're they. want to know, but they don't want to ask.

you that because they don't want you to. feel like you're being micromanaged. So, you're proactively doing that for them. And you're showing them, "Hey, this is. the time when I need to do focused work. This is when I'm going to be. indistractable.". On that point of priorities, you said. that startup founders really only have. one job, which is to prioritize. And. that really did. smack me in the face because that's so. unbelievably true. Mhm. Um we have a. finite amount of resources, founders. Um. we have a lot of things we want to do. We have more things we want to do than. time and time in the day. And creating. systems, like you said, where we can sit.

down and reflect on our priorities is so. important because. we might have an idea every day. Then we. get to 1 month later and there's and our. to-do list or our teams are overcome by. doing the first things we said, not the. most important things we said. Exactly. And a lot of the time because of I don't. know, cognitive dissonance or pride or. ego, whatever, you don't want to throw. something out that eight people have. started working on or. um that you've you've told them to work. on. Like going up to your team and.

saying, "Okay, we're just going to. cancel that project we've just spent 2. weeks working on because this is a new. priority of ours.". Sometimes um sometimes can feel. difficult. Absolutely. It's called the commitment. bias. That when we commit to something. or sunk cost fallacy, it's also called. that. That when we have a sunk cost in. something, we value it more. But of. course, that's that's silly, especially. in business. I mean, this is. you know, I had a professor in uh. at business school who said um every. business dies for the same reason. Businesses only die for one reason.

Cash. They run out of cash. Cash is. oxygen. Oxygen is life. And the number one cause of a business. running out of cash is doing the wrong. thing for too long. So, being able to cut your losses and. saying, "I know it feels wrong, but I. know it's right in my head.". That is an essential skill of every CEO. Because again, you know, prioritization. is your only job. And good priori-. priori- People who are good at. prioritization make for good CEOs. And.

people who are bad at prioritization. make for bad CEOs. So, we're in step three of the four. steps. Mhm. What's step number four? So, step four is is preventing distraction. with pacts. So, pacts are these what's called a. pre-commitment device. So, this is what. you do after the first three steps. So, you master the internal triggers, you. make time for traction, you hack back. the external triggers. As the last line. of defense, as the firewall against. distraction, you're going to prevent. distraction with a pact. Now, what are.

pacts? It's when you decide in advance. what you will do to keep yourself in. that task. And there's three types of. pacts. We have what we call effort. pacts, price pacts, and identity pacts. An effort pact is when there's some bit. of friction in between you and the thing. you don't want to do. So, I'll I'll it. it's just us and your millions of. viewers here, so I'll get a little. personal, okay? A few years ago, my wife and I, and. again, we've been married for 22 years. now. A few years ago, before I was. writing this book, uh we noticed that our sex life was.

suffering. That every night we were. going to bed. and I was fondling my iPhone and she was. caressing her iPad. And right? And we. were going to bed later and later. And. not only were we not getting proper. sleep, we all know how important rest. is. Our sex life was suffering. So, when I. started this research, I came across. this uh. this research around. the importance of these effort pacts. And I went to the hardware store and I. bought us this $10 outlet timer.

Now, this outlet timer, you plug it into. the wall and whatever you plug into that. outlet timer will turn on or off at any. time of day or night. So, what did we do with that? We plugged. in our internet router into this timer. So, every night in our household at. 10:00 p.m., the internet shuts off. Now, could I turn it back on? Of course I. could, but I'd have to go under my desk, unplug this timer, reset it, and plug it. back in. That would take effort. So, I. put some friction in between myself and.

the distraction. Okay? And lo and behold, every night we all. knew, okay, the internet's going to shut. down at 10:00 p.m., finish up whatever. you need to do. And it gave me that bit. of mindfulness to say, okay, do I really. need to still, you know, check email or. social media or whatever silly thing I. was doing, or is it time to do what I. said I was going to do, which is get. some rest, go to bed, and maybe be. intimate with my wife. People might hear that and go, you. didn't need a. timer to have sex with your wife. But I. did. I did. Because look, in the moment, you.

know, you're you're you're tired, you're. you're you're you're you're just kind of. drifting off. We've all done this, right? Where you you're looking at. something on the internet and and it. just it's kind of harmless because, you. know, she's brushing her teeth and I'm. waiting and you know, just one thing. leads to another and before you know it, it's it you've gone to bed later than. you. anticipated and you've given up a lot in. the process. So, having that rule, again, having that time box calendar, that's that that's step number two, where you have to we have in our. calendars bedtime, right? Why do we do.

that? Oh, I know, okay, eventually I'm. going to go to sleep, but why do I have. a bedtime in my calendar? And isn't it. ironic for those of us who have. children, we tell our children, you need. a bedtime, right? We're adamant about. how our children need bedtimes. But for. us, we don't need a bedtime? And my. daughter called us out on this. You. know, she said, "Daddy, what what what's. your bedtime?". And she was absolutely right. We've all. read these books, we all know how. important sleep is. And yet, we don't go. to bed. We we we it's crazy to me how. many I see this with with multiple. domains in health and fitness. We get. nootropics and we get blackout curtains.

and we get, you know, all we melatonin. Just go to bed on time. That's the. number one reason people don't get. enough sleep, they don't go to bed on. time. So, did I need an internet timer? Yeah, we all do. Because this is what. keeps us awake. Right? We do all these. interesting things. Again, the price of. progress is that you can find anything. you want at any time of day or night on. the internet. So, we do need these. pacts, again, as the last line of. defense. It's not the first thing. You. know, I don't want people to to listen. to me and say, "Okay, fine, I'll get an. internet timer, then I won't get.

distracted." No, if you don't first deal. with the the internal triggers that lead. you to distraction, you'll find. something else. Right? Someone's also. going to say, "Listen, you've got 4G. internet on your phone, you've got. cellular internet, so you can just go on. it.". True. Again, but now it's effort. Yeah, yeah. Right? If if I really wanted to. lie to myself, of course I could. That's. not the point, right? That there's. always a way. The point is it adds a bit. of friction. Right? It's that bit of of. of effort that now I have to take. And. more than anything, it's a statement. you're making to you and everyone in. your social environment that at 10:00.

p.m. is the shut off time. Whether. people adhere to that or as you say, there's ways to circumnavigate that, but. it's the statement of having that shut. off timer. Exactly. And now, by the way, we it actually wouldn't even matter. because we all know the internet's going. to shut off at 10:00. We all need to. start getting ready to to stop doing. whatever we're doing because it's going. to Now, we don't even need anymore. It's. become part of our nightly ritual, right? And by the way, what I want to. illustrate is the concept, not the. practice, right? Tactics are what you. do, strategy is why you do it. That's more important. You know, I think.

a lot of these books around similar. topics around. you know, dealing with with focus and. productivity, it's a lot of life hacks, right? But what I wanted was more the. the strategy, the the psychological. principles around why we get distracted. And then I'll I'll let people come up. with their own tactics. I give you lots. of tactics as well, but this is just one. illustration of how we can use this. strategy. And that's only one pact. There's also two other pacts I can I can. share as well. There's a lot of just. before we get onto the two other pacts, a lot of debate over the years about.

this idea of willpower. All of you know, just before we started recording, I said. to you, I looked up all these time. management techniques and I've looked at. these diet fads and there's so many of. them because it appears that they none. of them really work without this. underlying thing called discipline. So, you can have all the you know, I can. time box and I can the one two three. four technique and the ABC five. technique, whatever. But if I don't have. the underlying discipline, then I'm not. going to do any of these things. Discipline is such a interesting word. It's. it. it kind of catches a lot of different. things. A lot of psychological forces.

you've described. But and this other theory of willpower. that's sort of trundled on through the. ages, that we have a limited amount of. willpower. and if we try and do too many things at. once, then we'll do none of them and. only take on one bad habit at once. Is. there any truth to all of that stuff? No. No? No. Willpower is not a limited. resource. Uh at least from the latest research, you know, science isn't is never. conclusive, but from what we know today, it seems So, a few years ago, there was. this concept called ego depletion. Ego.

depletion is exactly what you mentioned, it's that we run out of willpower like. someone would run out of battery charge. on their phone, right? That it's a. depletable resource. And this concept was was promoted and. kind of widely circulated in the popular. press. And there were some fantastical claims. made that if you if you drank. sugar-sweetened lemonade that you would. boost your willpower. And it turns out, as often happens in the social sciences, when something sounds a little fishy, we. replicate the study. We try and run the. study again. And Carol Dweck, who you might know from.

she's probably been on your show, from. her book Mindset, she decided to. replicate these studies. She decided to. run them again, these ego depletion. studies. And she found. that. the only people who experienced ego. depletion, the only people who actually. did run out of willpower like someone. would run out of battery on their phone, the only people who experienced that. were people who believed. that willpower was a limited resource. That's it. So, it turns out, I mean, this is this.

incredibly important because it has. implications for all sorts of things in. our life, right? When we believe that we. are somehow deficient, that our brain is. broken, that. the the the world is conspiring against. us to hijack our brains, when we believe. these self-limiting thoughts, we act in accordance. And so, it's very. much the case with with this ego. depletion myth, that ego is that our. willpower is not limited unless we. believe it is. And on this point of did cuz I think the.

word discipline is somewhat. interchangeably used with like. willpower. It's doing the thing you said. you were going to do like and you. intended to do. I was trying to figure. out what discipline is and where it. comes from. Why in certain aspects of my. life like going to the gym now. So, for. the last three years, I've gone to the. gym about six days a week. Before then, I couldn't. DJing, I've. started DJing and I've done that for. about 12 months. I've been disciplined. with that. This podcast, I've been able. to do it. We release two episodes a week. and we have done for a while now. Why am. I disciplined in some areas of my life?

Why can I continue to show up? And why. in other areas of my life is it this. kind of failing battle to like you know, get back on the horse every other week. because I've fallen off. I had a. hypothesis where I was like, well, with. DJing, I have a like a a goal that mean. this is maybe my discipline equation. A goal that means a lot to me. It's it's. worth the pursuit. If I attain it, you. know, it feels like it's worthwhile. Plus. the psychological engagement and. enjoyment of the pursuit of the goal. So, like deep like I want to be a DJ. plus the psychological engagement and.

enjoyment. I I love the process of. DJing. It's like meditation or therapy. Listening to your favorite music for. hours, doing nothing other than being in. that flow state. Minus. this is where you kind of come in, I. guess, is the psychological discomfort. or disengagement. associated with the pursuit. So, for. example, if the DJing equipment was up. in the spare room and I had to. load it up every day and it took 35. minutes to do it. And then I had to load up the software. every day and it was really difficult.

I might find the process not worthwhile. and I might discipline might wane. When you look at that equation, the Y, the enjoyment of the pursuit minus the. the sort of unenjoyment of the pursuit, does that make sense? There's a lot. there. I mean, the basics are there. I. think what's. uh missing is that you So, with this. DJing. pursuit, you enjoy it. And so, it's not hard to do something. you enjoy. This is my problem with flow. You've heard about Mihaly.

Csikszentmihalyi with the concept of. flow. Uh that, you know, you can get into this. state where. time flies and it's effortless. And the. examples, if you read the book, uh the. of the examples are from sports, they're. from things that, you know, people really enjoy doing. And that's, you know, that's like. Hollywood. It's nice work if you can get. it. How do you get into flow when it's. something you really don't want to do? So, right now you enjoy DJing because to. correct me if I'm wrong, it's it's. you're not doing professionally or maybe.

you are? Not really. So, my guess is right now as an amateur, it's fun. Stakes are low, you're just. enjoying the process. Very much what I used to do when I first. started blogging, right? I was just. writing for myself and then I got a few. readers and it was kind of fun just to, you know, it's pure joy. It's pure. amateur behavior. And then what. happened. when I said, "Okay, now I want to. publish a book." Or when you if you. decide to professionally DJ, it's going. to start getting hard, right? Now. there's all this other stuff you don't. want to do around the core experience,

right? Now you got to figure out, how do. I build my brand and how do I get people. packed into, you know, the the. my show? And all this stuff that you. have to do that maybe isn't as fun. And. that's where flow falls down. So, this. is exactly what's happening and. happened. Mhm. So, started DJing and. then we announced I'm going to do a. show. We got 3,000 people to come to. this venue. And in the lead-up to that, DJing became. a lot less fun. And even now, so they've. they've they're trying to book me to do. a show in Ibiza and Marbella this year. And suddenly I'm getting all. uncomfortable about DJing again. Because.

so when I look at the the equation I. presented, what seems to have happened. in that equation is the perceived. psychological cost has increased. suddenly. Mhm. Because now there's like. nerves and yeah. Now there's like worry. and all these other forces at play and. that equation's now I've killed my. discipline has dropped. Right. Exactly. Exactly. And so that's where becoming. indistractable comes into play. You don't need to be indistractable for. something you love doing anyway, right? There's no problem with that. Follow. through is easy. It's how do I do the stuff I know I need. to do. but I really don't feel like doing it.

If you ask, you know, we talked about. earlier. the only reason businesses fail is. because they run out of cash. The only. reason we fail at our goals, there's. only one. The only reason we fail at our. goals is because we don't feel like it. I don't feel like it. I don't feel like. going to the gym right now. I don't feel. like working on that book. I don't feel. like whatever it is. It's a feeling. Fundamentally, it's a feeling. Of course. there's outside factors, of course. But. in terms of the number one reason we. don't pursue our goals is we quit. Right? That's the the most prominent. reason. We don't follow through and that. tends to be because of a feeling. So,

when there are these tasks that suddenly. get hard, right? Are suddenly difficult, that's when we need different tactics. It's easy to do the stuff we enjoy. It's. hard to do the stuff that. we don't enjoy. So, what would you advise me to do then? In the case of DJing, I've got, you. know, potentially two shows this summer. in Europe. So, I I would start with your values. Um and that's part of step two of making. time for traction. When people ask, you. know, how do I make a time box calendar? Where do you start? You start with your. values. So, what are values? The definition of.

values in my book is attributes of the. person you want to become. Attributes of the person you want to. become. So, then what you do is you put your. your your values in terms of these three. life domains. I look at them as. concentric circles. At the center of these three life. domains is you. If you can't take care. of yourself, can't take care of others, you can't make the world a better place. So, in that when it comes to that life. domain, you look at the things that you. want to do for yourself, the time you. want to spend to become the person you.

want to become. And you look at your. calendar, you look at this blank. calendar for the next 7 days and you ask. yourself, how would the person I want to. become spend their time? And you put that time in your schedule. So, time for rest, time for reading, time for. video games. Doesn't matter. Put that. time in your schedule. The next life domain is your. relationships. Part of the reason we. have this loneliness epidemic in the. industrialized world. is that we don't have the time scheduled. for our relationships like we used to.

As the industrialized world became more. secular, the church, the synagogue, the mosque, we don't go to these. social interactions where we care for. others and others care for us. We don't. have that scheduled in our day anymore. And I'm not saying it, I'm I'm pretty. secular myself. I'm not saying we have. to do that, but that is what we have. lost because we don't have these regular. what used to be religious institutions. Doesn't have to be real. I mean, we. Robert Putnam was talking about this in. the 1990s in his book Bowling Alone. We. don't have these regular social. interactions like previous generations.

did. And we need to bring those back. I. actually think social media overuse is a. symptom, not the cause. of the fact that we. don't see people regularly. So, you need. to put in your calendar time for those. relationships. Your friends, your. family, your kids, your significant others. You have to put. that time in your schedule. Don't give. them whatever scraps of time are left. over. Put it in your schedule. Then. finally, your work domain. This is where. most people start, but it's actually I. think where we need to end. Work comes in two flavors. We have. what's called reactive work and we have.

reflective work. Reactive work is how a lot of people how. distracted people spend their days. Reacting to messages, reacting to. notifications, reacting to requests all. day long reacting to things. And that's. fine. Everybody's job will involve some. amount of reactive work. But if you're. not scheduling time for reflective work, you're going to run real fast in the. wrong direction. You have to put time in your schedule. to think. If you want to do work that is creative, work that requires focus, you have to.

schedule that time. It's okay if it's. only 15, 20 minutes, but that time has. to be on your schedule. So, to answer. your question of, "Okay, well what do I. do with this this passion I have around. DJing?". It's a factor of how much time you want. to put into it. based on your values, based on the kind. of person you want to become. So, what would the Stephen you want to. become, how much time. time first and foremost, not outcome. I. think that's the problem with a lot of. goal planning. This is one of my beef. with with to-do lists. To-do lists are a. series of outputs.

I want to do this, I want to do this, I. want to do this, I want to and it has no. constraint. A to-do list has no constraints. You can. always add more. And so what happens? You come home with your to-do list of a. million things after you've worked. really hard all day long. and most of those things you have not. crossed off. So, what does that say to your. self-image if every day you come home. and all these things still haven't been. done after a long day of work and you. haven't done what you said you would do? Loser. So, day after day, week after week, month after month, year after year, you're reinforcing this self-image of.

someone who doesn't do what they said. they were going to do. Right? As opposed to a time box calendar. has constraints. Same 24 hours in a day. Right? And I don't care if you're Jeff. Bezos or Elon Musk, you can always make. more money, you can't make more time. I. think it's exactly flipped. Most people. are cheap with their money and generous. with their time. I think it should be. the opposite, right? We should be cheap. with our time and generous with our. money because you can always make more. money. You can always make more money. You. cannot make more time. So, a time box.

calendar forces you. to work with constraints and decide. based on your values how much time you. can afford to spend on whatever you want. to do. Right? Because if you put in everything, you you you'll get nothing. You'll live. in regret. Whereas if you say, "Look, I. only have. 4 hours a week for DJing endeavors and. here's where I'm going to put that in. because I also want to spend time with. my friends. I need to take care of. myself. I need to take care of my. business." So, it's not based on. outcome, it's based on input. Right? So, if you. went to a baker, okay, and you said,

"Hey, my kid has a birthday party. I. need. uh two dozen cupcakes.". Baker's going to say, "Okay, I need. flour, I need sugar, I need butter, I. need all these inputs. I need these. ingredients to make the output.". But when it comes to knowledge work, we only think about the output. But what's our input? Our input is just. two things, time and attention. Those. are our ingredients. That's it. So, you. can't just think about the output. You. can't just think about the cupcakes. You. have to think about the input. The input. is time and attention. And that, just. like ingredients for a cupcake, has to. be budgeted for. You have to plan that.

ahead. or it's not going to work out. So, I. you're my inspiration for starting time. blocking, I've called it, but time. boxing. Yeah, same thing. Um. and it's really, really been helpful. specifically in times when I'm not in. work. Mhm. So, when I go away to write, for example, and I don't have meetings. that I like I have to do or that pop in. and out, etc. It's been super helpful. And also, I'll be honest, during the. pandemic was when I really, to the point. that I started developing a time. blocking app with a friend of mine. Because it was that useful for me. The. pandemic had happened, we weren't.

meeting anybody, we weren't having sort. of in-person meetings. So, I had long. days, but that felt a bit more empty. than usual. So, to sort of get a grasp. on them and stop them being whittled. away with by distraction, I started time. blocking and it was amazing for me. I. guess one of the questions I want to ask. before I I get onto this is, do you even. So, I. in my personal relationship with my. girlfriend, we've been together for. about 4 years. Um pretty much ever since. we first met, me and you first met. Um. it's the first time I've lived with. someone. She's moved in, we live together. And.

one of the things that. a busy lifestyle. can do, and I think you've described it. as well, is it can have an impact on. your sex life and relationship, dates, date night, etc. So, I proposed the idea to her. because of you. I said, "We should schedule these things because. I schedule everything else that's. important to me. Yeah. So, we should. schedule our date night and those kinds. of things. Right. Because that's equally. important to me, too. And she was a bit. resistant to the idea at first cuz it in.

her her rebuttal was that it kind of. takes the. you know, the spontaneity and the spice. and the Date night or scheduling sex? Cuz some people schedule sex. I don't go. that far. I wouldn't I wouldn't go as. far as scheduling sex, but it's really. like spending time together and doing. stuff. She like her she was resistant to. scheduling it because she felt that it. took the. you know, the like. But the the so there's an interesting. concept. Okay, so when I was um. my wife and I met at university and we. met in economics class. And in this class, they discussed this. concept of a residual beneficiary.

A residual beneficiary in business is. the person, the chump, who receives. whatever's left over when a business is. sold. So, first debt holders get their. share, then the equity holders. Whatever's left over, the residual. beneficiary gets. Right? And after we'd been married for a few. years, she sat me down, she says, "Near, you have turned me into the residual. beneficiary." Wow, what a thing to say. Right? I get whatever scraps of time are. left over.

If If you and your relationship, by the. way, my book is not for people who have. a perfect life. Okay? I don't have a. perfect life. still get distracted from. time to time. The difference is between a distractible. person and indistractible person is that. a distractible person keeps getting. distracted by the same things. Paulo. Coelho has a wonderful quote. He said, "A mistake repeated more than once is a. decision.". Such a good quote. A mistake repeated. more than once is a decision. Good, right? So, distractible people keep getting. distracted by the same things again and. again. How many times are we going to.

complain about Tik Tok and Facebook. before we say, "Enough, I'm going to do. something about it." Right? Indistractible people say, "Okay, I got. distracted once, but you're not going to. let it happen again and again.". So, I'm going to take steps today to. prevent getting distracted tomorrow. So, when my wife and I found that our. schedules were getting busier and. busier, and we weren't making the proper. time for each other, it wasn't happening. spontaneously, then we had to go to plan B. And plan B. for a long time, the there was no plan. It was just, "Well, it's not happening.".

The the problem is. people interpret the fact. maybe you felt this. that not making time, not being. spontaneous, means that we don't love. each other as much. And I think that's a. huge mistake. That's not it at all. It. certainly wasn't in my relationship with. my wife. I still loved her just as much. Just that I was busy, honey, and there's. this big thing happening here, and I. need to do this, I need to do that. And. the time would slip away, and we. wouldn't spend time together. That's no indication that I don't love. my wife. It's an indication that I. didn't know how to prioritize my wife.

properly. So, I stopped making her the. residual beneficiary. If we have extra. spontaneous time, you know, sometimes. a meeting is canceled. Great. Let's. Let's do something together. But at minimum, we know on Friday. nights, that's our date night. Quick one. As you guys know, we're lucky. enough to have Bluejeans by Verizon as a. sponsor of this podcast. And for anyone. that doesn't know, Bluejeans is an. online video conferencing tool that. allows you to have slick, fast, high-quality online meetings without all. the glitches you might normally find.

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Try it. Love it. Number one protein powder. When we when we do fall out of. quote-unquote balance in some way, when. we maybe. don't have our priorities in order. At. least this is what people think. People. diagnose themselves with this thing. called burnout. And I've been quite. intentional with my words there cuz I. have my own opinions on burnout. I don't. really think burnout. is what people think it is. People think. of burnout is basically doing too much. work. Mhm. I think most people, 90% of people. would say that burnout is when you do. too much work.

Mhm. It's a big topic in conversation now, this subject matter of burnout. So, what. do you think burnout is? So, there's some amazing research done. by two British researchers by the name. of Stansfeld and Candy, and they. concluded that um. a toxic work environment. is not the work you do, it's the type of work you do. And so, they wanted to see that the the. the study was, "What kind of work. correlates with increased rates of.

depression and anxiety disorders?" And. they found two conditions that raised. the rates. of anxiety and depression. They. literally the kind of jobs that make you. sick psychologically. And those two. conditions are high expectations coupled. with low control. Coupled with Exactly. Low control. So, high expectations and low control. If. you had high expectations and high. control, no problem. People rise to the. occasion. But when you have a job with. high expectations and low control, that's burnout.

Why? Because it's a lack of agency. I'm. expected to do all this, I can't. Right? I'm trying. I'm trying. I'm trying. But as much as I do, my my. I don't have enough agency to meet these. expectations. So, let's zoom in on both. of those. I'm really compelled by this. idea of low control. Mhm. Um. when people think of control, that can. mean a number of things. Is that the ability to make decisions. for myself on how to accomplish the. challenge? To affect the the outcome. Okay. Right? So, if you have um.

uh you know, you're you're. a small cog in a big machine, but you. have these very high expectations, but. it's doesn't all depend on you. There. are other people Exactly. The circumstances. circumstances beyond your control that. is hard No matter how hard you work, you. can't meet. someone's expectations. Why? I'm trying to think from this the. psychological discomfort framework, why. that. that environment of high expectations,

this being pulled this way, but then. being suppressed on this end, would. cause. burnout. And burnout, I guess we have to. define it as that What is it? It's the. sort of psychological overwhelm, which. It's giving up. Which makes you give up. Yeah, it's uh. I think it's because it's the. it's the definition of death. Right? Schopenhauer describes life. as anything that tries to affect its. environment. Life is defined by something that. affects its outside environment. Changes. where it is to its benefit in some way.

That's what an alive organism is. So, if. you cannot change your environment, you. cannot change your circumstances, it. feels like death. And eventually you. give up. It's you you learn. helplessness. Where eventually it's not worth. continuing to try because you can't. affect the outcomes. I've always thought of burnout as being. somewhat sort of intrinsically attached. to meaning. Mhm. And it maybe that's it. That's exactly what you're describing. there because you're being robbed of. your ability to affect your outside.

environment, which maybe is what meaning. is. Meaning is I think the can be the. relief valve. So, if you are toiling, I mean, you. think about the role of religion in in. many people's lives historically, religion tells you that even though your. lot in life may not change, right? There is reward to come. So, you are you. have agency. You have control. It's just. that the reward is delayed. Mhm. So, even if your life is awful now, someday. it'll be better.

That's that gives you agency. So, that's. meaning, right? That gives you that that. meaning, that purpose of it's coming. someday. But if you believe that there's nothing. you can do to get that reward, that it. makes no difference, uh then the only logical thing to do is. to quit. I might be totally wrong here, but I I think the reason I thought. meaning was so important was because I. when you when you think about people in. roles that typically feel that burnout, it seemed to me that it was like. monotonous, tedious work where.

you know, maybe like working on a. production line where you're doing very, very long hours of work that is absent. of meaning for you. You don't really. care about the work, but you're being. pressed to do long hours. So, that's was my kind of understanding. of it cuz I tried to contrast it to. areas where I never get burnout. You know, watching Manchester United. play, or playing video games, whatever. And I thought, "What's the difference?". Well, it's because of my sort of. subjective meaning or enjoyment of the. task. So, I thought the enjoyment and. the meaning part was central somehow to.

but becoming burnt out. Mhm. Mhm. Uh. I don't know. I'm I'm not sure if it's. necessarily. uh requires meaning per se. I mean, you. see people working. two, three jobs uh sometimes, you know, when they're when they're getting. started from base level just to feed. their kids. Um. it's they can they can do very. repetitive, boring work, and they do it. uh because they are affecting change. They have agency. They can see the. results. They need to feed their. families. And this idea of agency and control is.

fundamentally linked to our physio. physiological health as well, which I. find quite surprising that people that. have greater degrees of control in their. professional endeavors are healthier. Right. This concept of locus of control. Right? Where it's external locus of. control versus internal locus of. control. People who have external locus. of control believe that things happen to. them. People who have internal locus of. control believe that they affect change. And what's fascinating about this is. that uh people who have internal locus. of control on every metric of well-being.

do better. They're wealthier, they have. more they have better relationships, they're healthier. Every metric of. well-being having an internal locus of. control benefits you. Even when your circumstances dictate. that you shouldn't think that you had. that much control. Even when you're in a. really awful situation, believing you. have agency makes you better off, even. if it's not true. Because that mindset, again, back to. what we were saying earlier about how. mindset affects what we do. If you.

believe willpower's limited, you will. act as such, right? I used to come home. after a long day of work and say, "Oh, you know what? I've had a hard day. I don't have any more willpower. My. willpower's been exhausted like we. talked about earlier. Give me that pint. of Ben & Jerry's. I'm going to sit on. the couch and and eat my ice cream.". Because I believed I I was spent. Right? But it was in my head. Whereas people. who believe that they have agency, they. do have control, live much healthier, better lives. This raises the point. about responsibility, which is quite a. controversial point for some reason.

Funny that that is, right? Like Why why. is it so controversial, do you think? I think it's this this idea, rightly so, of not victim blaming. But I don't think. that that is incongruous, that you don't. have to blame victims. as well as saying that we should take as. much responsibility as we possibly can. Um so, in in my line of work, you know, I I'm. fairly controversial because I wrote. Hooked: How to Build Habit-Forming. Products, and then I wrote. Indistractable about how to uh control. your attention and choose your life. And.

many people see those as as opposites, right? But I didn't write Hooked and. Unhooked. I wrote Indistractable uh. because it's about having our cake and. eating it, too. It's about having both. We can have the best of both worlds. Uh. that we can build apps, we can build. technologies that help us. exercise and learn new languages and and. stay healthy. We can use these these. amazing technologies for good, but we. can also find ways to not get distracted. from the from the devices or whatever. the distraction might be that lead us.

away from what we really want. Um but. yeah, sometimes people will say, "Yeah, but that's uh you know, you're you're. you're blaming the victim here. We're. that we're all victims of these. technologies. The technology companies. are doing it to us, right?" The Social. Dilemma movie tells us that our brains. are being hijacked. And uh. they interviewed me for The Social. Dilemma movie. Did you see it, by the. way? I did, and I yeah. Okay, so they. interviewed me, and I know you've had uh. Johann Hari on the show, and I have big. issues with with his whole thesis. Because it's it's a line around. it's not your fault. It's being done to.

you. And look, there's no doubt that. these companies design their products to. be engaging. That's the point, right? Do. we want Hey, Netflix, stop making your. show so interesting. Uh. Apple, your phones are too. user-friendly. Right? That's ridiculous. That's the point of these products. We. want them to be engaging. We pay for the. privilege of having them be engaging. So, it's ridiculous to think that. somehow they're going to stop doing. that. Uh it's also ridiculous to think. that the government, in all its. brilliant wisdom, is going to figure out. how to regulate these companies.

properly, right? We see every time I. come to Europe, I can't use the internet. because these stupid GDPR rules that I. have to constantly click accept I don't. even know what I'm clicking on. They're. so annoying. We see what happens when. government tries to regulate these. companies. Most of the time they're. incredibly ham-fisted. So, do we just. sit here I'm not I'm not saying I'm. anti-regulation. I'm for smart. regulation. But in the meantime, what are we doing? We're just going to. sit here and wait, right? Please, Zuckerberg, stop addicting me. It's. ridiculous. There's so much we can do, starting with not thinking we're. powerless in all realms of our life.

Again, even when circumstances are. beyond your control, it benefits you, it. behooves you to believe you do have. agency, you do have control. You're. going to be better off as opposed to. saying, "Well, there's nothing I can. do." Because what do people do when they. believe they're powerless? Correct. Nothing. Yeah. It's so interesting cuz I had a. conversation with a friend of mine last. night who um is single, been single for a while, and we were we. were huddled around there was a couple. of us, and everyone was single um in a. circle. I'm I'm currently not single. Um.

and. I saw some of that. I saw some of that, "Well, it's just it's the nature of the. modern dating world." You know, like you. hear it all, "I don't want to be on. these dating apps, and social media. doesn't work, and I can't meet anybody, so it's just the way it is.". And you can see in that moment like. the. it's almost like. declaring defeat. Well, there is agency. in that as well. Remember, if if life is. defined by something that changes is. outside environment, that's a great way. to say, "Well, I have agency. I decide.

to quit. It's in my control. to to say it's. it's impossible.". I guess so. Even if it is. self-defeating, it it feels good to say. it's impossible. But it's going to. reduce your chances of finding someone. Of course. If you just say, "Okay, well, I I. can't," and you blame external factors. Right. on that. The Mark Zuckerberg has become. a villain in society. You know, people. have really portrayed him as being the. source of so much evil, destroy people's. mental health because of these apps and. all these kinds of things. Do you.

I sense you have a slightly different. approach to that, or you think that's a. little bit too simplified? Am I right? W- Which part? The. The kind of I saw something yesterday. where Mark Zuckerberg was playing. jujitsu. Mhm. Have you playing jujitsu? the video, yeah. I shouldn't say playing. jujitsu. He was doing jujitsu. Did you. see the video of him doing it? yeah. And like the top. the person who would quote retweeted it. had said, "He's destroyed our a. generation's mental health, but he's. pretty good at jujitsu.". And I you know, he has been attacked for. the last decade. um because people think that, you know,

he built these apps, and these apps have. now made our lives significantly worse, but the the framing that you present. seems to say. if it wasn't those apps, it would be. something else. And it's not necessarily. the apps itself, it's our relationship. to the apps because of emotional. regulation in other parts of our life. You said something super interesting. earlier, which we kind of moved on from, where you said that you don't believe um. you believe that the. apps are a symptom of. a wider social issue. Mhm. Is that is.

that an accurate representation of your. views? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I I think. look, I'm not uh saying these companies. are guilt-free. By the way, I have been. asked many times to work for them and. with them, and I I always refuse cuz I. don't want any conflict or appearance of. conflict of interest. So, I don't have. any I don't get paid by these companies. in any way. But I think there is absolutely a moral. panic around social media. We already. see it now fading, right? It was last. week it was uh social media, this week. it's going to be AI. There's always a.

moral panic. And if you look back at the. the history of mankind, we have always. had moral panics of one thing or. another, uh especially with media. Uh media that hijacks the brain of of of. the population, that's always been a a. big fear. I think. uh. in general, it's it's way overblown. I. mean, if you actually look at the. research uh in terms of of the effects. of mental health, um look, overuse of. any media is going to have deleterious. consequences, right? When my daughter. was into Harry Potter and she was. reading Harry Potter 5 hours a day, I.

said, "Hey, honey, that's too much Harry. Potter, right? Like that's going to have. some deleterious consequences. Well, you. need to go outside, you need to see your. friends, you need to do other things.". So, yeah, any extremes uh are bad. Now, I do think there is room. for regulation for two protected classes. of people. One we currently protect, which is children. So, children, you. know, there's my daughter can't walk. into a casino and start playing. blackjack. She can't walk into a bar and. order gin and tonic. She's too young for. that, right? So, there's certain. protections are for children. I think we.

should have those protections for social. media. I think 13 is probably too young. The current regulation, at least in the. states, is 13. That's probably too. young. The other group of people who don't have. protection, who need protection, are. pathological addicts. So, addiction, you. know, we toss around this word addiction. so much these days. My my wife got a a. box of shoes from DSW, and the the box. says, "Danger, addictive contents inside." Okay, it's. shoes, right? We use this word.

addiction, we throw it around. Addiction. is a disease. It's a pathology. And just. because something is addictive doesn't. mean it dicks everyone, clearly, right? Many of us have a glass of wine with. dinner, we're not all alcoholics. We. have sex, we're not all sex addicts, right? So, it's ridiculous to think just. because something is addictive to some. people, it's addictive to everyone. But. if you are addicted, and the company. knows this might be the case, and I've. been advocating this for years. This is. the kind of legislation I do support, then I think the government the then the.

company has a responsibility. Right? If. an alcohol company, they don't know who's addicted. How. would they know? How would they know who. the alcoholics are? They wouldn't know. The online companies, they do know. They. have personal identifiable information, and they know your time on site. So, they could reach out, and this is. what I'm advocating for. I call it a a. use and abuse policy. That if you are. using this product, give me a number, 30. hours a week, 40 hours a week, whatever. number is in the, you know, several. standard deviations uh uh. of use, we're going to reach out to you with a.

very respectful message that says, "We. see that you are using your our product. in a way that may indicate you are. struggling with an addiction. Can we. help?" Can we help? Right? Very. respectful message. If they say no, fine, right? But offer to help. Can we. uh help you use uh blocking tools so. that you're, you know, we we you you. self um select out. Uh what Here are. resources. I think you have a. responsibility. Now, that's about 3 to. 5% of the population that struggles with. addiction. The problem is. there's this popular narrative, and a.

lot of people are selling a lot of books. telling us that uh our attention is. being stolen, right? Stolen from us. If you're addicted, you could argue. that. That pathology of addiction, okay. Everybody else, if you're not a child or. you're not addicted, this is a personal. responsibility issue. It's not an. addiction, it's a distraction. But we. don't want to call it that, right? Because if it's a distraction, ah, shoot, I got to do something about. it. That's no fun. Can't I just blame. Zuckerberg? No, I got to take some. personal responsibility. You know what? I I have to learn how to manage my.

internal triggers. I have to schedule my. time. I have to hack back these external. triggers. I got to put in some pacts in. place. This is not hard stuff, folks. Right? The book isn't that long. Take. you maybe an hour and a half, 2 hours to. read it, and you will be indistractable. You'll look at back at this and think. this is a joke. We were complaining. about this being addictive. Come on. It's a few simple techniques. Right? So, to sit here and complain and say our. attention's being stolen, our focus is. being stolen. It's not being stolen, we're giving it away. Give me a break. What is that? Stolen? We are willfully giving it away because. we're not doing anything about it. So, I.

think yes, is there room for regulation? Of course. I think there's a lot we can. do. But let's start with personal. responsibility. Let That's the first. line of defense. Wouldn't that make. sense? First, let's see what we can do, and then we can also figure out while. the politicians figure it out. We can, you know, find ways to regulate as well. One of the things I found compelling was. the role that our psychological. trauma and our childhood trauma can have. on us because. one of the psychologists I sat here with. described it as. gremlins and goblins. He said Sir Steve.

Steve Peters said that we have some of. us have goblins. These are the hard to. move, hard to budge traumas. Usually. happen below the age of 10 that will. just stay with us the whole time. You. know, like really severe traumas. And. then after that, generally speaking, they're gremlins where you can do work. to kind of overcome them. When people are thinking about taking. those steps in relationships or in the. in the gym or whatever, you know, you. talked about obesity being clinically. obese. Sometimes we have these goblins. at the heart of us that limit us from. taking that first step that just acts as.

a gravitational force against the. behavior we want to take. Right. How do. we Can we overcome that? Is that Is it. relevant? Well, so severe trauma is kind. of out of scope for for what I work on. But I would say for the goblins as you. described them, that is where I think it is very helpful. to realize that they're just feelings. They're just feelings. Right? They're But feelings can be very. convincing. But. feelings don't happen to us, they happen. for us. So, if we can leverage that, if.

we can learn from that, if we can use it. like rocket fuel to propel us towards. what we want to do. If you look at, you. know, amazing artists or athletes or if. you the it's interesting how many of. them have some kind of trauma. Right? Have you ever noticed that? Like. they're they're they're running away. from something just as much as they're. running towards something. They're. trying to prove something to their their. alcoholic father. They're trying to. prove something to to to somebody. because of what happened to them. You. know, we have post-traumatic stress, we. also have post-traumatic growth,

depending on how we frame that and what. we do with that discomfort. And there's. a lot of people who. do amazing things driven by these same. goblins that that other people run away. from. It's about how we reframe that. that discomfort. Every successful person that sat here, in fact, the last person that sat in the. chair, so I asked them and they said. they were basically running away from um. that trauma. And actually they actually. got diagnosed many years later in. therapy with post-traumatic stress. disorder. PTSD.

They are. the number one in their industry, I'd. say. Right? I mean, it's it's so common. And many of the people I interviewed for. the book, they That was what was so. fascinating. It wasn't trauma or. trauma-free. Everybody has trauma. And from these high performers, they all. had it. Uh something And we all do in. some way. We've all suffered in one way. or another. And and of course, there's, you know, it's very difficult with It's. very touchy, but uh you know, it's very. much subjective to us how we deal with. it, how we will grow from it. Uh I think.

that's the big lesson. I think. the psychology community as well will. will will teach that it's about learning. how to deal with that discomfort in a. way that is adaptive, right? As opposed. to maladaptive, something that hurts. you. That these experiences are neutral. It's how we interpret them that that. matters. That's a really key point that I've. learned from doing what I do here. The. point about trauma being neutral, it's a. subjective thing. Uh you know, someone. snatches a toy off you when you're a. kid.

Now, you might interpret that as being a. fun game, or you might interpret it as I. can't trust anybody. And it's like a it's the same incident, but it's interpreted in two entirely. different ways. And then that child. might then go on to be incredibly. successful because they were low in. trust. Right. You know, but then that. might hurt their personal relationships. And the other child who had the same. thing happen to them might just be, you. know, And it's it's not only psychologically. true, but also physiologically true. I. don't know if you've read Mind Body. Prescription.

Uh it's it's an old book, but it. basically is is. a lot of people read it for back pain. And it's incredible. I had a um. my last uh in my last company, a. business partner of mine, she would be on the floor in pain in the. middle of the day. She would have to go. to a back office because she just could. not move. She was in so much pain. And uh her husband had incredible carpal. tunnel. He would wear all kinds of. devices and. you know, stuff to try and immobilize.

his hands, and he really suffered. And. then they came across this book, The. Mind Body Prescription, which basically. talks about how you don't want to. uh stop doing the painful actions. That. most pain is chronic type pain after the. healing has occurred. Of course, there's. a a window, right? If if you still have. pain, I think what is it? 6 months? If. you still have pain, then it's called. chronic pain. That the body has already healed within. that time period. We're sure the body. has healed. Why is it still pain? That. there isn't necessarily Pain does not. mean physical trauma per se. And I think. this is relevant to psychological trauma.

as well. The pain happens because we. focus on our attention on the pain. You. can't have pain without attention. Do you notice that? You can't have pain. without attention. Uh so it you know, there there's these cases, by the way, of in the World War I where. um soldiers would drag their buddies to. the medic. and say, "Medic, you know, my my buddy's. dying. You need to help him." And the. medic would look at the soldier and say, "Soldier, your arm is gone." And he look. and he wouldn't notice that half of his. arm is missing. Because pain requires attention. So, when we overfocus on our pain, when all.

we pay attention to is our pain, and I'm. saying here physiologically as well as. psychologically, the pain becomes worse. The pain becomes worse. When we sit and. we're and we're and and more so, when we. try and not do the thing that caused us. pain. So, now the advice. is not, you know, if you have a back. pain issue, it used to be, "Okay, well, immobilize. Don't move. Uh you know, don't stretch. Don't just, you know, rest, rest, rest, rest." And now the. advice is really changing. Same with. carpal tunnel. It's not, you know, get. all the wrist braces and don't move your.

wrist. It's the opposite. It's if you. feel back pain, do whatever caused that. pain three times. Because you want to regulate the the. brain to learn that this is not a. threat. Again, emotions, pain don't happen to. us, they happen for us. It's a it's a. lesson for us to learn from. It's just a. signal. Now, we can interpret that. signal any way we want. So, when we. hyperfocus on something that was. painful, physiologically or. psychologically, when we don't do the. thing that cause us discomfort, right? When we want to go to safe spaces with.

trigger warnings and we're not exposed. to the things that make us. uncomfortable, that only makes it worse. and worse and worse because we're paying. more attention to it and we don't have. the exposure. We We know the the way to. treat phobias. How do you treat a. phobia? Exposure therapy. Right? So, when someone's scared scared. of a dog, right? When someone has severe. reaction to. a dog, what do you do? Well, first you. show them a picture of a puppy. Then you. show them a picture of a full-grown dog. Then you show them a video. Then. eventually you'll put them in a room. with a puppy out the other side of the.

room, 20 ft away. Then you. you you expose them to the threat until. their brain down regulates and. teaches itself not to cause this. reaction, this emotional reaction to. this potential stressor. And so, it's the same way with many of. the the the potential discomforts in our. life. Isn't it the same way with just. belief itself, like self-belief? Think. about how our beliefs form. People. always, you know, ask me questions, and. one of the most popular questions anyone. wants to know in the sort of. self-development community is about how. we become confident. And confidence is a.

belief. And one of the ways that I've. become confident in my life is by. exposure therapy, I guess. Yeah. You know, how you learn to speak on a stage is by. doing it. Like there's no other You. can't read a book on it to get to. overcome the nerves. Um have you thought. much about confidence and the role it. plays in everything we've discussed. today and how to build confidence? Hm. Funny you should say. getting on stage. So, uh I'm a. professional public speaker. That's. that's I do that a lot. It shows. And. thank you. Very good. Well, okay. Well,

let me back up a few years. So, when I. when I first started out, uh I wrote the. book first, and then I started speaking. about it. And uh when I would get on. stage, I would have incredible stage. fright. And at first, this is with my first. book, Hooked. And uh I would tell myself. this this script of when I felt my. heartbeat, uh when I would get, you know, sweaty. pits, and. I I get very nervous. And I tell myself I can actually It's. funny just talking about it, I can. actually feel it. Uh I would tell. myself, you know, if I was a real public.

speaker, I wouldn't feel this way. I'm. going to mess up. I'm going to stumble. over my words. I'm going to fall flat, and people are going to laugh at me. And I would do worse on stage. And then. when I started researching. Indistractable, I found this technique. called reimagining the trigger. And. reimagining the trigger is when we take. the same exact physiological reactions. and we reinterpret them. So, now when I. go on stage and I feel my heart racing, I don't use the old script. I have a new. script. The new script says, "My heart.

is beating fast because it is pumping. oxygen to my brain so I can deliver the. best possible talk.". That's where confidence comes from is. reframing the triggers. What used to scare you should embolden. you. Should strengthen you. Someone. that's low confidence, what are they Are. they lacking in something? Are they Are. they lacking in positive evidence, or. are they abundant in negative evidence? I guess it can be either or. Mhm. I think they're stuck to a script, frankly. This is why we see uh Mike and. Michael Pollan's book, How to Change. Your Mind, where why psychedelics are so.

interesting for for treatment of. depression, anxiety, and various. conditions. It's not the drug itself, right? There's no healing taking place. I mean, even the whole concept of the. broken brain and uh. chemical imbalance, you know, this whole. chemical imbalance theory is turns out. it's rubbish. Nobody believes it anymore. in the psychology community. It's only. the public that thinks that there's a. brain chemical imbalance. It's not being It's not fixing anything. in the brain. It's simply showing you. that a different perspective exists. That's all it does. It simply shows you.

that a different perspective exists. And. that can snap you out of this what we. call a trapped prior. Mhm. A trapped. belief around how things are and says, "Wait a minute, I don't have to think. that way.". So, when it comes to confidence, I mean, what what do actors do? Actors inhabit. completely different characters. uh on demand. Right? And that's that's a. skill I think. we could try on for size. We should. actually once in a while say, "Well, what What would it be like if I acted. different?" Right? Do I have to stick to. my old beliefs? No, there's no law that.

says you have to act the same way every. day. It's simply that our our sense of. self, our our our self-image is based on. what we did previously. A topic that's. actually emerged a lot in public. consciousness and conversations since we. last spoke is and it's very much linked. to all the work you do. is attention deficit disorder. Mhm. You. wrote a book about not being distracted. Mhm. What's your thoughts on ADHD, ADD? Oof, this is a big topic and I'm probably. going to get myself in trouble here, but. um let me start by saying it is not up.

to me uh or anyone you would listen to. on a podcast to tell you whether you. have or don't have a diagnosis. Go to a. a physician and and and get a diagnosis. one way or the other. I will say that I think. um. there's something fishy going on when it. comes to ADHD. I have a lot of concerns. One, the discrepancy between what's happening. in the States and in Europe. is weird, right? 10% of children in the. United States are diagnosed with ADHD.

In Europe, it's 1%. Something's strange there, right? There's something about the culture in. the United States. that I believe over diagnoses. And it over diagnoses because I don't. think there's a great check and balance. to disincentivize the diagnosis. Meaning, if a teacher says. uh this child. is a pain. This child can't sit still. And we're talking about, you know, many.

times it's 5, 6, 7-year-olds where. you know, we It's funny. I I I. A lot of people say how technology is. this and technology is that. You know, public education is also a technology. It's only about what, 150 years old? It's not that old. We haven't done it. for that long. And so, there are. negative repercussions also to putting a. bunch of kids in a in a box and. expecting them to sit still and be quiet. and uh listen to some boring person. lecturing on on uh at the front of the. classroom. So, I think there's a there's a clear. incentive for teachers and parents to.

try and calm kids down. And I don't I don't know if there's. enough of a a check and balance to say, "Look, is this is this really necessary. to diagnose?" Especially when. there are pharmaceuticals involved. So, I like to repeat and I'll repeat it. again and again, skills before pills. Skills before pills. ADHD is real. This diagnosis For many. people, medication is the appropriate. course of action. But I have talked to so many people in.

the field. who just don't have the resources to. teach skills, and so all they can do is. prescribe. And it's the first thing. they'll do. Kid will get diagnosed. Here's here's some pills. And I think. those pills, we do not. properly. um. weigh how dangerous those pills can be. Not only look, these you know, these things are amphetamines, right? They have consequences. They have uh. side effects. And many times we will. give pills to take care of the side.

effects of the pills we just diagnosed. And more importantly, they are training. a generation to believe that solutions. come in pill bottles. And I think that. has some very severe potential. consequences. Especially when for many, many people. adults and children, the skills are. here, right? If you have tried. the skills and they still don't work. If. you've taken, you know, a day or two, just a day or two to learn some of the. skills I talk about in Indistractable.

And then, if you find, you know what, it's still not working. Okay, got it. But to jump straight to the. pharmaceuticals, I think it's a big. mistake because they all come with with. side effects. So, skills before pills. The justification that I got from one of. my my friends that was diagnosed um was. that his brain doesn't make enough. dopamine. That's not true. Um there's. we don't know that. That's uh that's. pure conjecture. This science doesn't. support that. We we the whole chemical imbalance. theory, no psychiatrist will tell you.

that's true. It doesn't That's just scientifically. false. Where did that come from? Came There were. it was a theory that has since been. discredited. with with further research. We We. actually You cannot find ADHD in the. brain. There's no brain scan to say. There's no blood test. You go to a. doctor, they will ask you questions, you'll take a little assessment, and. then if you get. whatever it is, six out of eight of. these criteria, uh by the way, very. gameable, completely gameable,

you'll get a diagnosis. And of course, many physicians. unfortunately, will cater to what they think the. patients want because they don't want a. bad review on Google that says, "This. doctor didn't believe me.". Right? So, they they're they they fear a. bad review and they'll they'll do what. the patient wants. Furthermore, I think. a. big problem, okay, again, I'm. This isn't black and white. I'm I'm very much for a proper. diagnosis. I'm sure that ADHD is. absolutely, absolutely real. Let me Let. me say that again.

But if you go to a physician that does. not also give you. an undiagnosis plan. Everybody thinks. about diagnosis. What about undiagnosis? Right? When you go to the doctor and you. have a broken arm, they put on a cast and they say, "Come. back in a few weeks, we'll take the cast. off and you'll be healed.". Where's the undiagnosis plan for ADHD? It should exist. It should exist. We. should be able to help people. overcome. And we see this all the time when people. want to. I I I In my family, I've seen.

this. People in my family have been diagnosed. with ADHD. They go on medication, they suffer from. the consequences of the of the some of. the side effects, they go off the pills, then they get to the skills, they learn. the skills, and they functionally don't have any. more. Remember, it is not I I I What I. hate about uh a lot of people in the. ADHD community, they feel like it's an. identity. Right? It is who they are, and that is. so dangerous. We need to look at ADHD as something.

that is treatable. Okay? It's treatable. sometimes through medication. It's. treatable through behavioral practices. We can learn to overcome many of these. things. Because if it's not functionally. hurting you, you shouldn't have a. diagnosis anymore. But for, you know, I. think if if you go to a physician that. doesn't give you some kind of. undiagnosis plan, which could take. years. It's not an instant solution. But. there needs to be some kind of plan to. how do we make sure that this. functionally doesn't. debilitate you uh with without, you. know, medication as as a constant course.

of treatment, especially when it has. side effects, that's a big red flag. The treatment is based on what people. believe the cause is. So, if I if I. think the cause is a chemical imbalance. or your brain is broken in some way, I. can't create an undiagnosis plan. Right? That's the problem. It's not Look, people are cured of. addiction. Addiction is a pathology. You have it for a while while your. circum- So, addiction is a confluence of. three things. The person,

the pain they're going through, and the. product that they are addicted to. But. when any of those three things change, they're no longer addicted. I don't. believe in this "I'm an addict for. life." I think that's incredibly. harmful. And uh. you will be very hard-pressed to find. someone who's in the addiction treatment. community who calls people addicts. We. don't call them addicts anymore. We call. them people struggling with addiction. Because we don't want to stigmatize them. to believe, "That's who I am." What do. people do when they have an identity? They conform to that identity. That's that's terrible. You struggle with an addiction for a.

while, and then you are treated, and. then you recover. Mhm. Why do we think that ADHD would be. any different? The BBC wrote an article this week, which is what spiral sort of caused this. this discussion amongst my my close. friends, where the BBC said they were. they kind of presented the the the idea. that TikTok had been really driving an. over-diagnosis because on TikTok you'll. see a lot of videos that say things. like, you know, if you have this problem and. this problem, you can't focus on this, or you like lose your keys a lot, and. you forget where you've put them, that's ADH that's ADHD. It's kind of.

simplified the. the element. Mhm. Um. And the BBC wrote this piece sort of. saying that is it driving an. over-diagnosis in culture? Um. and I've seen I mean, if I go on if I go. on my social media, that's what I see. I. see so much content around saying, "Well, if you've got this, this, and. this, if you've got this habit, then. that's ADHD." And that does concern me a. little bit because we both know that. ADHD is a very real thing that can be. debilitating for people that suffer with. it. Um But trivializing it into small.

small little Right. And it's And it if. you look for it, right? It's recency. bias. When you are looking for. something, you'll find it. So, if you. you. Do Do Do people who everyone who loses. their keys from time to time have ADHD? Of course not. But if you were looking. for it and you're saying, "Okay, I I. lost my keys. It must be this or it must. you know I was having difficulty reading. a book. It must be this." When that's. repeated ad nauseam in the popular. press, we I think that's part of the. number whether whether the media is. TikTok or traditional media, uh.

there has been um. I I think uh a popularization of the. diagnosis and the more people hear about. the diagnosis, the more they potentially. will look for it. I think we I think the. pendulum should swing the other way. Now, I don't think there's anything. wrong with teaching the skills that. could make ADHD functionally not a. problem. What's wrong with that? There's. no problem. I think the problem comes in. when we A uh. get people to identify. You know, you. hear this all the time. Say, "Oh, I have.

undiagnosed ADHD." Well, you haven't you. haven't gone to the doctor. You don't. you haven't taken any kind of. assessment. How do you know? Right? And. even then, if you did one, there's also. okay, there's some gray area there, too. Or people say, "Oh, I'm so OCD." Well, OCD is a is a terrible pathology, right? It's not. uh I like to wash my hands more than. others. I like to keep my room clean. No, no, no. That is a serious pathology. So, when we addiction, I think is. probably the most overused phrase. Addiction is a terrible pathology. But. when people say, "I'm addicted to this. I'm addicted to. that." It has two terrible consequences.

One, it's I think greatly offensive to people. who actually struggle with the this. disease of addiction. That's one big. problem or the pathology of addiction. Two, you are. you are uh creating this identity for. yourself as someone who is powerless. Addiction, the word addiction comes from. addictio in Latin, which means slave. So, you're a slave to something. So, when you call yourself a slave to. something, you're basically saying you're you're. powerless against it. So, using these. these medicalized terms and moralizing.

these terms, I think is a really bad. path. Who stands to gain from this? I I. I've sat here with so many health. experts and they tell me about the sugar. industry and I and the smoking industry. that you know, pub- published a lot of. sort of media back in the day saying. that sugar was good for us and. cigarettes were good for us and and I I. think about this um this conversation. around ADHD now. Who who stands to gain. from uh an increased diagnosis of people. with ADHD? Well, I I don't want it to sound like. the tobacco industry that you know, was.

sitting in smoke-filled rooms plotting, but there are systems in place which. benefit some groups over others, for. sure. I mean, the the I think the. psychology industry, the pharmaceutical. industry benefits quite a bit. Again, I. don't think they're sitting there. thinking, "Ooh, we're going to convince. people that there's uh that they should. be diagnosed.". But of course, there's incentives. And and more importantly, there's no. disincentives. I'm I'm not I'm not so. worried about the incentives. I don't. think there's. I'm not pointing fingers at unethical. practices.

in psychiatry or in the pharmaceutical. industry per se. What I'm worried about is where are the. disincentives? Who is saying, "You're diagnosing too many people here. It can't be that 10% of American. children have ADHD. How can that be? Something fishy going on. Where where. are the brakes? Who says, "This doesn't seem right.". What's the what's the most important. thing you think we haven't talked about. today that we should have talked about? So, we didn't talk about how to build an. indistractable workplace. Ooh, okay. Yeah. I read I read a stat that you. tweeted a couple of years ago that said.

um nurses had managed to reduce the rate. of. mistakes when they're giving. subscriptions by like 80% just by. wearing like a vest that said, "Do not. disturb me." Right. Exactly. So, that's where I got the idea of that. uh that screen sign that comes in every. copy of the book. Is so, these nurses uh. in the UK, actually. Uh. It was this huge problem of prescription. mistakes that patients were being. prescribed the wrong medication or the. wrong doses of medication. It turns out.

that in almost all cases, it was caused. by distraction. They were, you know, on. their dosing rounds and somebody would. tap them on the shoulder and disrupt. them and then they would make mistakes. And the solution was that they had these. nurses wear these bright red vest that. says, "Drug round in progress. Do not. disturb.". And they reduced the percentage of. prescription mistakes by 88%. They. almost eliminated the problem. And so, I tell the story. I know that. you know, not everybody who reads the. book is in the medical profession, but I. tell the story to illustrate one,

how we too don't realize the problem is. happening until it's too late, right? We. think we're doing our job, we're doing. great, everything's fine. And just like. these nurses, not until they came back. to work the next day did they realize, "Hey, did you realize you gave Mr. Johnson the wrong medication? You almost. killed the man." Right? In that case, they got that immediate feedback and. it's awful, life-threatening. For us, we. don't realize how much better we could. be at our jobs or at life when we work. without distraction. The when I I did I. there's a whole section in the book on. building an indistractable workplace.

We found that there's three. characteristics of an indistractable. workplace. The first is that there is a. uh a play sorry, a a sense of. psychological safety. This comes from. the work of Amy Edmondson and at. Harvard. And she's identified that. psychological safety is this ability to. talk about your problems without fear of. retribution. So, if you can't raise your hand. and talk about the problem of. distraction. Hey boss, you know, I I. I'm really having trouble finishing my. work because I constantly feel I'm. interrupted. If you can't talk about.

that problem, that is the problem. It's. not the technology, it's that you can't. talk about the problem. So, number one. trait, psychological safety, the ability. to talk about the problem. Second is a forum to talk about the. problem. So, uh. a little sidebar. Slack was one of these products that a. lot of people complained about when I. was researching the the book and I said, you know, "What do you find most. distracting?" And Slack kept coming up. or other group messaging services, but. Slack uh is the biggest or was the. biggest at the time. And uh so, I went to visit Slack. I went.

to Slack headquarters in San Francisco. And I expected. if Slack is this super distracting. technology, well, nobody uses Slack more than Slack. I expected to see an office full of. people who were constantly distracted. But that's not what I found at all. That at Slack, the parking lot clears out at 6:00 p.m. And if you use Slack on nights and. weekends, you are reprimanded. You are. told that is not what we do at our.

company. Right? And what I found was. that they exemplified these these. traits. There's other. another company I profile in the book, but Slack is one of them. So, they have. psychological safety. They give people a. forum, that's the second trait. They. give people a forum to talk about the. problem. And so, they created Slack. channels where people it was called beef. tweets. They had a Slack channel where. people could post complaints or. suggestions about the company. And so, what was important about this as. a practice, it doesn't have to be on. Slack. Some companies I profile, Boston. Consulting Group as well. They had a. massive turnaround as well when it comes.

to their company culture. They went from one of the. hardest places to work. It was my first. job out of college. It was really rough. from a work-life balance perspective to. now it's one of the best places to work. as according to. they got an award for one of the best. places to work in America. Uh and they did that by creating a. forum, by creating a place to talk about. the problem. So, Slack has a Slack. channel where people can talk about. things that they want to improve with. the company. And the important thing. here is not that everything has to be. acted upon, right? Management can decide. what's important and what's not. important, but employees need to be. seen. So, what does Slack management do?

In order to. make sure that people felt heard, they. would use emoji. They would send like if somebody had a. complaint, they would post the eye emoji. to show them, "Okay, we saw that." Or. the check emoji to show them it's been. taken care of. Right? So, it's a forum. for people to talk about the problem and. feel like they're heard. The third trait and the most important. is that management needs to exemplify. what it means to be indistractable. So, when you walk into Slack headquarters, there's a huge pink neon sign. I used to.

have a picture of it in the book. A huge. pink neon sign. in the company canteen that says, "Work. hard and go home.". It's part of the company ethos that. people do their best work when they're. fully focused. And then after work, they. need time to be with their families, to. do other things. So, and that's that was part of the company. culture. So, psychological safety, a. forum to talk about these problems, and. making sure that management exemplifies. what it means to be indistractable. So much of that I'm going to implement.

Near, we have a closing tradition on. this podcast where the last guest leaves. a question for the next guest not. knowing who they're leaving a question. before. It's a new tradition since you. last came on. And the question that's. been left for you is, what is one idea. that is important that most people would. disagree with you on that you feel needs. to be said? Oh, the Peter Thiel. question. Okay, you asked me what I changed my. mind on. Mhm. Uh and I mentioned it a. few times in passing, but I've really. changed my mind on. uh the importance of religion. In that I'm I'm secular. I don't believe.

in anything supernatural. But. uh. I think we as. skeptics, I would say, to describe us, whether you call yourself agnostic or. atheist or whatever, we gave we give up a lot. We give up a. lot. And I've changed my mind on. um the fact that. organized religion. has a lot to offer us. And I and and. this is something I'm really struggling. with because I have such a problem with. accepting the supernatural elements of. religion.

But the benefits are amazing, right? Taking care of people. who uh. you may not know directly, but are part. of your community. Having a place to go. to that you know you will be taken care. of as well. Having rituals that mark the. year. Um Higher purpose. Higher purpose, uh. a forced disconnection and reflection, meditation, prayer. There's so many things I think we miss. out on that I've I've I have a new found. respect for the benefits. I think a lot.

of a lot of people get stuck with, "Yeah, but I can't believe the hocus. pocus." Right? Deridedly said. But we miss a lot and I think we we. should acknowledge that. Thank you for. writing such a great book. Thank you for. coming back onto the podcast. Um, you're. an incredible person and I can't wait to. buy whatever you write next. I. appreciate that so much. It's a huge. honor. Thank you so much. Thank you, Neil. Ladies and gentlemen, our newest brand. partnership will come as no surprise to. regular listeners on this podcast. The.

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